Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind from how stork
Speaker 1: dot com. Say you're welcome to stuff to blow your mind.
Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb, and I am Christian Seger.
Speaker 1: And today we are talking about something that seems like
Speaker 1: it wouldn't blow your mind, but it is really interesting
Speaker 1: and really controversial. Yeah, this is in a way, we're
Speaker 1: kind of walking into a trap here because this is
Speaker 1: a topic that a lot of people have definite opinions on.
Speaker 1: You can even say you have. There's there's a certain
Speaker 1: amount of faith and worldview wrapped up in this topic. Identity. Yeah,
Speaker 1: your identity, how you fit into the world. Uh. And
Speaker 1: also though we have studies a kind of pointing to
Speaker 1: both sides of the argument, the argument of organic foods. Yep,
Speaker 1: we are going to talk about organic food in particular.
Speaker 1: We're gonna look at the scientific studies into its nutrition value,
Speaker 1: also it's effect on the environment and whether pesticides do
Speaker 1: anything to us or not. Yeah, and we're approaching this
Speaker 1: from a you know, a middle path standpoint here. So
Speaker 1: again we're probably gonna piss off everybody. I have a
Speaker 1: feeling that like, if you are hard line in any
Speaker 1: one of those camps you're going to be disappointed. But
Speaker 1: if you're just kind of like I was, approaching this
Speaker 1: like I'm like, you know, I go to the grocery
Speaker 1: store and I see organic and I go, yeah, maybe,
Speaker 1: but you know, I also have to like weigh my
Speaker 1: concerns about costs. Uh. This is maybe going to be
Speaker 1: a better episode for those people, people who haven't made
Speaker 1: up their mind yet and are just kind of generally
Speaker 1: curious about the science behind agriculture in the United States. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and if nothing else, again, we're gonna approach it with
Speaker 1: an open mind and it can be a conversation starter.
Speaker 1: I'm sure everyone will have some feedback on this because
Speaker 1: if nothing else, everybody eats, that's what we all do
Speaker 1: every day. Well, we have to pick out new foods
Speaker 1: with which to essentially construct our new bodies. Were to
Speaker 1: try and put kind of a weird sci fi spin
Speaker 1: on it, we're all kind of we're like that mad
Speaker 1: scientist who's lost his body and it's a brain and
Speaker 1: it's a brain in a jar and he has to go, oh,
Speaker 1: I need a new body. What am I gonna do.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna build it out of corpses, and I'm gonna
Speaker 1: build it out of machine parts or some sort of
Speaker 1: energy force field. We have that similar situation, except we
Speaker 1: have to choose more These carrots are those carrots? Do
Speaker 1: I do? Do I do? Meet? Do I do? Um?
Speaker 1: You know? Sweet? What am I building my new body
Speaker 1: out of tombstone pizzas? I don't know? Uh? Yeah, I'd
Speaker 1: say a good like percent of my body is maybe
Speaker 1: tombstone and red barren um. And so okay, we recognize
Speaker 1: that you may have some strong feelings about this, so
Speaker 1: we figured this is a good point for us to
Speaker 1: at the top remind you of all those places where
Speaker 1: you can tell us what you think about organic food
Speaker 1: and what you think about our take on it. So
Speaker 1: we are stuff to blow your mind, and we are
Speaker 1: on Facebook, Twitter, Tumbler, and Instagram now on all of
Speaker 1: those will blow the mind. Uh, come visit us check
Speaker 1: out the stuff that we're posting there. We don't just
Speaker 1: post about our own podcasts. We also do videos and
Speaker 1: we write articles that stuff goes up there, but we
Speaker 1: also try to curate all the bizarre audity science stuff
Speaker 1: that comes across our path as we're doing research throughout
Speaker 1: the week. So that's a great place to follow us
Speaker 1: and see all the kind of like neat, weird stuff
Speaker 1: that we come up with in our travels, and of
Speaker 1: course there's always stuff to blow your mind. Dot com
Speaker 1: is the mothership. That's where we'll find all the podcast episodes, videos,
Speaker 1: blog post links out to those social media accounts, and hey,
Speaker 1: expect a facelift for that website in the months ahead.
Speaker 1: Everything's getting redone, spruced up, the little more user friendly. Um,
Speaker 1: we're looking forward to that. We had a very exciting
Speaker 1: talk the other day about a potential news stuff to
Speaker 1: blow your mind logo, which I think I'm very excited about.
Speaker 1: Looks very cool. Okay, so organic food, I feel like
Speaker 1: the best place for us to start is just sort
Speaker 1: of an introduction into not what it is, but the
Speaker 1: trajectory of how it became a part of our culture.
Speaker 1: And a lot of this episode will be US centric
Speaker 1: because we're both Americans. We live in America, and a
Speaker 1: lot of the science seems to be done here, even
Speaker 1: though a lot of the food is grown internationally. So
Speaker 1: let's go back traditional farming before the Industrial Revolution in
Speaker 1: the twentieth century. Think The Witch the movie The Witch Right,
Speaker 1: and they're they're growing their pathetic little farm in Massachusetts
Speaker 1: and they're trying to survive. Right. That's organic farming. Uh,
Speaker 1: that's and that's basically what we're talking about going back
Speaker 1: to here because Uh, in the nineteen thirties there were
Speaker 1: two British scientists named Lady Eve Balfour and Albert Howard,
Speaker 1: and they started looking at the role of agricultural production
Speaker 1: in healthy food, and in particular, Howard recommended recycling all
Speaker 1: of our waste, you know, including animal waste and human
Speaker 1: waste basically sewage, so that we could fee the soil
Speaker 1: on our farms. Around the mid twentieth century, incomes the
Speaker 1: influx of chemical pesticides and fertilizers, they started to become
Speaker 1: widespread and organic farming actually took on this weird kind
Speaker 1: of cultish aspect. Like other farmers sort of looked at
Speaker 1: it like why why are you still bothering with that? Like,
Speaker 1: and when they would say things like well, you know,
Speaker 1: I'm worried about these pesticides and the health effects or whatever. Uh,
Speaker 1: they were looked at as proponents of doom and gloom. Well,
Speaker 1: you know, I think it's one thing it's important keep
Speaker 1: in mind about agriculture in general, is just to remind
Speaker 1: everyone that agriculture itself is essentially unnatural, and it's it's
Speaker 1: taking these plants that grow, you know, in a natural balance,
Speaker 1: in a natural situation with other plants, taking and then
Speaker 1: growing them exclusively in a you know, a plot of land. Yeah, totally,
Speaker 1: Like just think of like and we'll talk about these later,
Speaker 1: but like even organic practices like rotating crops in a
Speaker 1: particular way or using predatory animals to pick off the
Speaker 1: pests rather than using pesticides, like you're affecting the ecosystem
Speaker 1: one way or the other. Yeah, you're still manipulating the environment.
Speaker 1: And so what we're talking about with agriculture in channel,
Speaker 1: it's just like to what degree or manipulating the environment,
Speaker 1: what tools are using to manipulate the environment, and on
Speaker 1: what scale. Absolutely so in the sixties and seventies, this
Speaker 1: movement really picks up the organic farming movement. And the
Speaker 1: reason why is because this book comes out by Rachel
Speaker 1: Carson called Silent Spring. It sounds like a horror movie.
Speaker 1: But no, maybe it is. Maybe it's written as a
Speaker 1: horror movie. Organic food produce organic Yeah, maybe wow, that
Speaker 1: that's write that one down. Put a copyright next to it.
Speaker 1: Uh So, Basically, this book emphasized all the problems with pesticides.
Speaker 1: At the same time, the United States was facing two problems,
Speaker 1: water pollution from farming and the energy crisis in the seventies.
Speaker 1: So farmers were like, well, maybe we will start using
Speaker 1: fewer michals just because of these things going on. Now,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna burn through history real quick here. Okay, nineteen
Speaker 1: eighty the U. S Department of Agriculture starts actually getting
Speaker 1: interested in organic farming, and they publish a report on it.
Speaker 1: A year later, in nineteen eighty one, the American Society
Speaker 1: for Agronomy argued that organic farming contributed more to sustainable agriculture. However,
Speaker 1: they had clashes with the Reagan administration and so some
Speaker 1: of that stuff didn't necessarily make it to the public
Speaker 1: as quickly as they wanted it to. By the time
Speaker 1: we get to the late eighties and the nineties, and
Speaker 1: I remember these these times, well, this was really when
Speaker 1: I started first hearing a lot about organic farming, and
Speaker 1: I was a teenager. Um, the environmental movement really started
Speaker 1: to gain sway. There were practices and emphasis on maintaining
Speaker 1: bio diversity, animal welfare, and fair trade practices. That gets
Speaker 1: us to two thousand two. This is when the U.
Speaker 1: S d A created what are known as the National
Speaker 1: Organic Standards, and those overrite any state regulations and create
Speaker 1: the labeling system that we use now. So when you
Speaker 1: go to the grocery store and you look at a
Speaker 1: label on produce or meat or whatever about what it's
Speaker 1: organic content, that's because of these National Organic Standards. And
Speaker 1: I'm gonna buzz through them real quick, but they're important
Speaker 1: to think about when you, like, I'm glad I read
Speaker 1: this stuff next time in the grocery store, I'm definitely
Speaker 1: gonna consider it. Okay, if it says a hundred percent organic,
Speaker 1: that means the product was made only with organic products.
Speaker 1: Products that say they are just organic, but they don't
Speaker 1: say a hundred percent organic, they have to have ent
Speaker 1: organic ingredients. And then if they quote contain organic products,
Speaker 1: then they have to have at least seventy percent organic
Speaker 1: ingredients in them. If there's under seventy, you don't get
Speaker 1: a label, no label for you. You You don't you don't
Speaker 1: get to advertise this. Now. One thing that's important to
Speaker 1: remember that I read here is that the U. S
Speaker 1: A does not regulate farmers who are producing. I believe
Speaker 1: it's under five thousand units. So you know, if you're
Speaker 1: just like if you have a small farm and you
Speaker 1: go to a farmer's market and you're selling your wares,
Speaker 1: I suppose you could make your own stickers that say organic,
Speaker 1: even if you're you know, spraying chemicals all over them.
Speaker 1: That seems unlikely right now. And on the chemical note,
Speaker 1: it is worth noting here, I think it's important that
Speaker 1: when we're talking about organic farming and conventional farming, because
Speaker 1: because you know, it comes back to the whole thing
Speaker 1: like like what is organic often feels like a weird
Speaker 1: label because it's not like the alternative is inorganic, so
Speaker 1: you're eating metal. But anyway, so, conventional farmers they can
Speaker 1: apply any pesticide approved for use in the United States. Uh,
Speaker 1: it doesn't mean they can just apply anything. There's oldest Okay,
Speaker 1: organic farmers they can't use all of the same chemicals.
Speaker 1: Now that doesn't mean organic farmers, um, you know, allow
Speaker 1: insect pests and weeds to just run rampant. Uh. And
Speaker 1: and they can also use pesticides and weed killers, but
Speaker 1: they have a smaller list of approved substances to use.
Speaker 1: Right So when you're buying organic, it doesn't necessarily mean
Speaker 1: pesticide free. It just means different pesticides. And there's something
Speaker 1: to be said about that too, that will will delve
Speaker 1: into a little bit more later in the episode as well,
Speaker 1: and that like, you can be growing crops organically in
Speaker 1: soil that maybe used to have pesticides, and those pesticides
Speaker 1: can stick around for a couple of years. Indeed, so
Speaker 1: here we are. It's twice sixteen, and food safety is
Speaker 1: still a concern, right, We're all worried about it. Especially.
Speaker 1: I thought of you quite a bit during this episode
Speaker 1: because you have a young child, and I would imagine that, uh,
Speaker 1: you know, if I were a parent, I would be
Speaker 1: thinking what should I put in this little person's body? Right? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean that that is always that has been on
Speaker 1: our minds since that I came into a lot of
Speaker 1: terrible way to go about talking about feeding a child.
Speaker 1: But yes, yeah, I mean, well, you're you have all this,
Speaker 1: all all of this emotion and energy and time and
Speaker 1: money invested in this child, and you want, you absolutely
Speaker 1: want everything to be best for the child, and then
Speaker 1: you find yourself in the situation where you're like a dude,
Speaker 1: he wants he wants these susages. Well, maybe maybe soysagees
Speaker 1: in a good example, because I feel like most of
Speaker 1: the soysage options are probably organic. But al right, so
Speaker 1: let's see, you're buying fruit because the kid eats the
Speaker 1: colossal amount of fruit, and you're like, do I get
Speaker 1: them the organic bananas and the normal bananas? I want
Speaker 1: him to have the best, But doesn't make that much
Speaker 1: of a difference, And then you end up, yeah, you
Speaker 1: gotta you gotta think about how this colossal amount of
Speaker 1: fruit he's eating costs money, and then you if you
Speaker 1: if I get the organic? Sometimes I feel like I
Speaker 1: doubt myself. Am I engaging in his magical thinking? Here?
Speaker 1: Am I sort of curbing my bets like someone who
Speaker 1: just goes ahead and prays to a few different gods
Speaker 1: in case they're there, you know, like, in case it
Speaker 1: makes the difference, I'll go ahead and spend the money
Speaker 1: on the organic. But is there any is there any
Speaker 1: science backing me up on this? So if you're like
Speaker 1: Robber and are out there and maybe you're thinking about
Speaker 1: that for yourself, or maybe you're thinking about it for
Speaker 1: your children or or jeesus, I don't know, Like I
Speaker 1: imagine some people even think about this with their pets.
Speaker 1: To write like organic food and pet food is probably
Speaker 1: a big deal. UH, because as well discussed too, it's
Speaker 1: like gets, they're they're sort of different sides to want
Speaker 1: you buy organic. They're sort of the there the user
Speaker 1: uh ended the version of it like houses affecting me,
Speaker 1: houses affecting the child or the pet. But then there's
Speaker 1: also the production level of it. You want to you're
Speaker 1: buying a product that is the end result of one
Speaker 1: version of the agricultural industry, and you are buying a
Speaker 1: product in theory that reflects your ideals for that industry.
Speaker 1: It's actually a perfect segue into paper that I looked
Speaker 1: into for this episode. UH. It in particular looked at
Speaker 1: the advertising of organic food and uh specifically how it
Speaker 1: highlighted both personal and environmental concerns in tandem. UH. And
Speaker 1: now that way is the most influential way to get
Speaker 1: consumers to buy organic food, especially when the promotional messages
Speaker 1: align with the core values of consumers culture. Right so
Speaker 1: here in America, UH, where we align with what in
Speaker 1: the article is referred to as egoism. UH. And we
Speaker 1: like to think that we align with altruism as well. Right,
Speaker 1: And those are the two ways sure fire ways to
Speaker 1: get somebody to buy organic food is to make them
Speaker 1: think about themselves and what's good for them, and then
Speaker 1: to make them think that they're thinking about the welfare
Speaker 1: of others around them. Uh. And so if you get
Speaker 1: that's the one two punch that will sell organic every
Speaker 1: time apparently, and selling organic, I mean that's that's a
Speaker 1: key point here as well, because it's not just you know,
Speaker 1: a bunch of roadside farmers, you know, maybe putting a
Speaker 1: sticker on something. We're talking about an industry that in
Speaker 1: two thousand twelve was a reported twenty nine billion dollar
Speaker 1: industry and according to Euromonitor International, just one source. Uh,
Speaker 1: they claim that by two thousand seventeen, this could be
Speaker 1: a trillion dollar global industry. We need to get some
Speaker 1: organic food sponsors. You need to get on it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: there's a lot of there's a lot of mon today.
Speaker 1: I don't think our food oriented, but I'm going to
Speaker 1: have a talk with them. Well, we have some coming
Speaker 1: up coming along. I think we do have some food
Speaker 1: sponsors coming up. But you know, the key here is
Speaker 1: that when someone is selling you organic. Yeah, there are
Speaker 1: marketing firms involved here, There are graphic designers involved here.
Speaker 1: All the energy and manipulation that goes into selling you
Speaker 1: absolutely anything is in play here. If you've got the
Speaker 1: government involved, it's a big enough industry for them to
Speaker 1: be paying attention. And uh, you know, call me liberal,
Speaker 1: but I am glad when the government is regulating what
Speaker 1: goes into my food, like, I'll take it. Uh. There
Speaker 1: may be some farmers out there that don't like that,
Speaker 1: but but it gives me a little bit of peace
Speaker 1: of mind. So backing that up, poll showed that forty
Speaker 1: five percent of Americans are actively see can to incorporate
Speaker 1: organic food into their diet. This isn't just like I'm
Speaker 1: going to the grocery store and I see the organic
Speaker 1: avocados next to the regular avocados and I grab organic.
Speaker 1: They're going to the grocery store with a list that
Speaker 1: says organic avocados on it, right, like they want to
Speaker 1: put it in their diet. In it was projected that
Speaker 1: the organic food industry would see a sixteen percent growth
Speaker 1: rate going into So that's leading us to that one
Speaker 1: trillion dollar number. Man, put that into perspective, the average
Speaker 1: American household spends four thousand dollars more a year on
Speaker 1: organic food than unconventional food. That probably matches up with
Speaker 1: our fruit badget I think for this for this kid, Wow, yeah,
Speaker 1: he's just a he's just all made of fruit. That's
Speaker 1: that's well. From what I know about your kid, he
Speaker 1: really likes bananas and giraffes. So yeah, yeah, bananas and drafts.
Speaker 1: He only eats bananas. Were not actively buying a black
Speaker 1: market if you but yeah, but if you did, if
Speaker 1: you organic giraffe meat, alright, only the best. So what
Speaker 1: we we talked a little bit about the whole U.
Speaker 1: S d A thing, But what exactly is organic food?
Speaker 1: You know? Like, what's the difference here? Yeah? I mean
Speaker 1: that's the question we all end up asking ourselves when
Speaker 1: we're we're in the line, you know it is it
Speaker 1: what is the difference? Or am I just paying extra
Speaker 1: so I don't have to think about what the difference is. Well,
Speaker 1: So a lot of the like history and basic breakdown
Speaker 1: stuff that we're giving you here comes from the Salem
Speaker 1: Press Encyclopedia entry on organic food and the debate in particular,
Speaker 1: But we also looked at I would say another god
Speaker 1: like twelve twenty studies of what's going on with organic
Speaker 1: food in science in particular, organic food is any crop
Speaker 1: or animal product that's produced without pesticides, man made fertilizers, additives,
Speaker 1: or growth regulators. So we're talking about fruits, vegetables, grains, dairy,
Speaker 1: and meat. Now, So me being the vegetarian on the show,
Speaker 1: I was like, oh right, meat, Like I didn't even
Speaker 1: realize that you could buy organic meat, but that makes sense.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I mean, I mean the whole meat. The
Speaker 1: whole meat issue is a kind of a subject unto itself, right,
Speaker 1: because you you get into issues of not only like
Speaker 1: like the organic aspects of the food, but also the
Speaker 1: you know, how are the animals treated, what were they fed? Yeah,
Speaker 1: so that's that's almost a whole podcast onto itself. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So the idea here originally was to encourage soil and
Speaker 1: water conservation, go back to that seventies thing with water crisis, uh,
Speaker 1: and reduce pollution. So they started using natural fertilizers to
Speaker 1: feed soil and plants. Also included, sorry, also excluded from
Speaker 1: the organic food category would be genetically engineered feuds. That's
Speaker 1: another episode. Genetically engineered foods, human sewage and their radiation
Speaker 1: that kills germs and bacteria. So you you know, if
Speaker 1: it's just a swamp things situation waiting to happen, right,
Speaker 1: toxic avengers, I think. But but seriously, yeah, so like
Speaker 1: those uh, I think of those like weird foods that
Speaker 1: had started popping up in grocery stores that are like
Speaker 1: giant versions of the fruit that like we used to buy,
Speaker 1: you know, the apples that are like twice the size
Speaker 1: and globe bright red and it's like, oh, they look
Speaker 1: super pretty well that's because they're genetically modified and I radiated,
Speaker 1: or yeah, they're the kind of apples that I remember
Speaker 1: hearing they would they would have them on set for
Speaker 1: mad Men, and they would have their their their historical
Speaker 1: accuracy department would come in and say no, no big,
Speaker 1: Yeah they're too big, Like no, no, apple um would
Speaker 1: have been this size. That's funny or like, uh, you know,
Speaker 1: I I shouldn't say this. And also I'll just throw
Speaker 1: out there that I don't know whether these are genetically
Speaker 1: modified or not, or if it's just a hybrid fruit.
Speaker 1: But grapples. Have you ever had one of those before?
Speaker 1: It's like a grape apple combination. Yeah? Are they the
Speaker 1: size of a grape, so like an apple the size
Speaker 1: of a grape or more like a smaller apple, if
Speaker 1: remember correctly. Yeah, I don't think I don't remember trying
Speaker 1: that one. Yeah. Well, you know, I don't know necessarily
Speaker 1: that that would be considered organic, but I'm sure that
Speaker 1: there is a organic way to produce such a thing
Speaker 1: if you're I don't know, holistically growing them together anyway.
Speaker 1: So for pest control, these organic farmers they say what
Speaker 1: they follow that guy's advice, like I Howard, and they
Speaker 1: use biological means crop rotation and animal maneuver uh. And
Speaker 1: like I mentioned before, the U. S d A has
Speaker 1: strict governmental standards about what qualifies was organic. You don't
Speaker 1: get that seal without meeting with the U. S d A.
Speaker 1: Now here's the thing. It's voluntary, but many producers use it.
Speaker 1: Why because of the marketing value right like wild It's
Speaker 1: like if you're a farmer and you say, you know what,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna like change this whole production method that we're doing,
Speaker 1: uh to organic. You're doing it because you recognize that
Speaker 1: there's value in the market. Yeah, and you're creating a
Speaker 1: premium product that you can then they can then sell
Speaker 1: at a premium price. One last thing keep in mind
Speaker 1: throughout this podcast, the words natural and organic are not
Speaker 1: interchangeable terms. Okay, so when we're talking about organic, that
Speaker 1: doesn't necessarily mean natural. Right, And to go back to
Speaker 1: my earlier point, if you want to get serious about agriculture,
Speaker 1: and uh, just about anything in agriculture is not natural
Speaker 1: unless you're walking, you know, unless it's like hunter gathering level. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1: We actually did an episode of brain Stuff that was
Speaker 1: sort of about like, uh, you know, if the world ends,
Speaker 1: like how do I go about foraging for food? And
Speaker 1: I did all the research and for the outline for it.
Speaker 1: It's pretty fascinating, but like, yeah, it's hard to find. Like,
Speaker 1: dandelions are one of the few things that you can
Speaker 1: just eat, but you can't eat them if they're like
Speaker 1: within something like fifty meters of any road or or
Speaker 1: human environment, like like even a farm, because of the
Speaker 1: potential chemicals that could uh travel on the air and
Speaker 1: get on them. So go dandelions. All right, We're gonna
Speaker 1: take a quick break, and when we come back, we're
Speaker 1: going to look at some of the science behind the
Speaker 1: pros and the cons for organic foods. Essentially, the scientific
Speaker 1: argument that is still going on at the end of
Speaker 1: this episode. You're still gonna have to make up your
Speaker 1: own mind. So so don't worry. We're not we won't
Speaker 1: do it for We're not going to do an attempt
Speaker 1: to do it for you. But yeah, quick break, and
Speaker 1: then we're right back in it. All right, we're back.
Speaker 1: So yeah, let's talk about some of the pros and
Speaker 1: cons here. Let's start with Now, let's let's be positive,
Speaker 1: and let's start with the pros. What the science telling
Speaker 1: us about the advantages of organic food Well, proponents say
Speaker 1: that organic farming reduces the environmental impact and protects the soil. However,
Speaker 1: experiments show over a number of years there is a
Speaker 1: nine seven percent reduction in pesticides and organic fields. So okay,
Speaker 1: so that's good, right, a majority. And this is this
Speaker 1: gets back to people with children. A majority of pesticides
Speaker 1: that are found in infants and kids originate from their diet,
Speaker 1: so it does seem to make sense for them to
Speaker 1: eat organic at these vulnerable ages, right as their bodies
Speaker 1: are processing and growing. Another plus about organic foods is
Speaker 1: that they can counteract pesticide exposure to their Studies that
Speaker 1: show that children who eat organic foods that have eaten
Speaker 1: foods that have pesticides in them, it will reduce the
Speaker 1: pesticides in their body by fift So it's like a
Speaker 1: you know, cure late wounds spell for pesticides. So we're
Speaker 1: basically looking at a goal here of uh, reducing the
Speaker 1: amount of pesticide residue that's on the produce. Right. It's
Speaker 1: not like, let's let's not let's be clear here, like
Speaker 1: convey National Foods is not like they spray the pesticides
Speaker 1: on them and then they just put them in the
Speaker 1: grocery side, right, But there's a residue that's left over. However,
Speaker 1: there are residues on both organic and non organic slash
Speaker 1: conventional foods. They almost never, however, exceed government safety thresholds.
Speaker 1: So the U. S d A is just as strict
Speaker 1: with conventional grown foods as they are with organic foods.
Speaker 1: So that's important to keep in mind. Yeah, Now, the
Speaker 1: certainly the the issue of kids is a big thing,
Speaker 1: and we're probably gonna keep going back to that. The
Speaker 1: In two thousand and twelve, the American Academy of Pediatrics
Speaker 1: advised parents to limit a child's exposure to pesticides, but
Speaker 1: they also they didn't make a statement about whether organic
Speaker 1: foods are ultimately a better choice for children than conventionally
Speaker 1: grown foods. They they they admitted that more research was
Speaker 1: needed to nail it down, but they went a had
Speaker 1: made this this advisory, um and and a lot of
Speaker 1: research has come in the wake of that. One study
Speaker 1: that is often mentioned, and this is ultimately a small study,
Speaker 1: but a two thousand fifty study publishing Environmental Health Perspectives,
Speaker 1: looked at twenty Oakland, California kids and twenty kids from
Speaker 1: the agricultural region of Salina's hundred miles away. So they
Speaker 1: ate a conventional diet for four days, in an organic
Speaker 1: diet for seven days, and then they returned to conventional
Speaker 1: foods for five days. Then, of course we took some
Speaker 1: urine samples. Uh was why wouldn't you and us, I mean,
Speaker 1: their kids. There's gonna be urine. Oh yeah, it's it's
Speaker 1: gonna be everywhere. Seventy of their urine samples collected daily
Speaker 1: contained evidence of pesticides, but of the six most frequently
Speaker 1: detected pesticides, two of them decreased by nearly fifty percent
Speaker 1: when children were on organic diets, and the levels of
Speaker 1: a common herbicide felled by twenty So the advantages there
Speaker 1: are pretty obvious, right, so we'll take that in the
Speaker 1: column four organic foods that if in particular for children, right, uh,
Speaker 1: pesticides don't seem to be a great thing in their bodies,
Speaker 1: and if we want to reduce them, then organic foods
Speaker 1: is a good way to do that, either by just
Speaker 1: feeding them exclusively organic food or giving them organic food
Speaker 1: occasionally to reduce the pesticides in their bodies. And of
Speaker 1: course this is all uh, this is all important to
Speaker 1: me too as not always a parent, but as an
Speaker 1: adoptive parent, because you know, you you enter into the
Speaker 1: scenario with so many unknowns about the child's past nutrition
Speaker 1: was yeah, I mean you know, I know, you know,
Speaker 1: we knew basically, but when it comes down to like
Speaker 1: was this organic that they were eating, you know, what
Speaker 1: was pesticide level, etcetera? What what other kind of you know,
Speaker 1: uh agents were they exposed to? Like you, it's it's
Speaker 1: easy to do than just say, well, let's go as
Speaker 1: organic as possible, let's limit as much as possible any
Speaker 1: any new uh you know, but pollutants, any new pesticides
Speaker 1: thrown into the mix. That makes sense and as far
Speaker 1: as pesticides go, we're learning more and more about how
Speaker 1: these substances travel and how they affect organisms. In two thousand,
Speaker 1: two thousand fourteen study publishing in Environmental Toxology and kim
Speaker 1: As Tree recorded pesticide compounds including fungicides in Pacific chorus
Speaker 1: frogs living in national parks, forests, and other locations high
Speaker 1: in the Sierra Nevada Mountains. Now in some cases we're
Speaker 1: talking UH sixty two miles a hundred kilometers from the
Speaker 1: nearest farms that had used those chemicals. We're seeing those
Speaker 1: chemicals pop up in the frogs, and UH the pesticides
Speaker 1: have such as this have been found to harm frogs
Speaker 1: immune systems, impact development, and even trigger sex changes. Granted
Speaker 1: we're talking about sex changes and frogs. Sex changes in
Speaker 1: amphibians far different UH situation than any kind of conceivable
Speaker 1: sex change in a human, but still we're seeing we're
Speaker 1: seeing an impact on how their bodies work. We're saying
Speaker 1: we've also seen connections to colony collapse in bees. So
Speaker 1: the take over here seems to be that that pesticides,
Speaker 1: first of all, when you introduce them to an environment,
Speaker 1: they're not gonna just stay on that farm there that
Speaker 1: they have a way of getting out. Yeah, and we
Speaker 1: see them harming vulnerable creatures such as amphabians such as frogs.
Speaker 1: Uh So the underlying message here is, yeah, this seems
Speaker 1: like something we should reduce as much as possible, as
Speaker 1: much as is sustainable from a feed the world standpoint,
Speaker 1: And if you have the ability to limit the amount
Speaker 1: of these things going into your child, then then I
Speaker 1: feel like I should do it. Yeah. And from the
Speaker 1: you know, also keep in mind, from the perspective of
Speaker 1: like being pro organic, there's still like, as we're talking
Speaker 1: about how much it can travel, these pesticides can still
Speaker 1: get on organic fields because of how much they travel.
Speaker 1: Or for instance, if three years ago a farmer was
Speaker 1: spring pesticides, then they cleared the crop, then they started
Speaker 1: growing organic on that soil, there's still some pesticides in
Speaker 1: the ground there as well. So you know, it's complicated. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and there's uh I don't want to go into too
Speaker 1: much detail. And there's a two thousand fourteen study that
Speaker 1: was oubolished in environmental health perspectives and they looked at
Speaker 1: pregnant women living near fields treated with pesticides, and they
Speaker 1: observed a correlation between proximity to pesticide fields and autism
Speaker 1: in the in the children. So this study, just to
Speaker 1: give you grounding, here n seventy pregnant women, one third
Speaker 1: left than one third of them lived less than a
Speaker 1: mile from a site where pesticides have been applied, and
Speaker 1: the women had a sixty percent higher risk of having
Speaker 1: a child with an autism spectrum disorder if they lived
Speaker 1: closest to those sites. But again, this is just one study,
Speaker 1: and like pretty much, this is the kind of caveat
Speaker 1: we can throw out in any of these where we
Speaker 1: have a lot of individual studies looking at little corners,
Speaker 1: limited testing populations, and of course limited frames of time.
Speaker 1: We don't have those big, you know, centuries spanning studies
Speaker 1: involve lots of people. Yeah, So this whole like podcast
Speaker 1: search was done during the same week that John Oliver
Speaker 1: released the scathing commentary on how science is reported in
Speaker 1: the news, and if you haven't seen it, I really
Speaker 1: recommend it. We actually did a piece on how stuff
Speaker 1: works now about it. But uh, I had that in
Speaker 1: the back of my mind as we were working on this.
Speaker 1: Every every study I saw, I was like, well, that's
Speaker 1: twenty people in California. I know, like what do we
Speaker 1: actually gather from that? And and as Oliver points out
Speaker 1: in his piece, it's like what what we need to
Speaker 1: be doing is replicating the studies so we can we
Speaker 1: can determine whether or not they're valid, and then also
Speaker 1: doing a review of all of the studies. Right, there's
Speaker 1: not often a lot of money to be made in
Speaker 1: those things, so they're not done luckily. In organic In
Speaker 1: the organic food debate, there have been a lot of
Speaker 1: reviews done, so that's a good thing, and in particular, um,
Speaker 1: there's so there was one that looked at thirty four
Speaker 1: studies from just the seventies in hill around now and
Speaker 1: it found that organic vegetables have the same and maybe
Speaker 1: sometimes higher nutrient contents than non organic conventionally grown food. Uh.
Speaker 1: The gist of this is it's probably not more nutritious
Speaker 1: to eat organic food, all right. So when this we're
Speaker 1: getting into that big study that came out in those
Speaker 1: posting the Annals of Internal Medicine and start everyone up
Speaker 1: quite a bit with the with these key findings and
Speaker 1: this also we're we're definitely getting into the potential cons
Speaker 1: the downside or the just sort of the the the
Speaker 1: even kill nature of organic foods. And this is outside
Speaker 1: of cost, right, Like you go to the grocery store
Speaker 1: and the first thing you think of as a con
Speaker 1: is like, well, that's a dollar more per thing, right, whatever. Yeah,
Speaker 1: obviously that that's a problem. You know, if they were
Speaker 1: the same price, maybe it would be a lot easier
Speaker 1: to say, Yeah, but I can only pay three dollars extra,
Speaker 1: you know, so many times just for a you know,
Speaker 1: a vague feeling of of of betternests. Right, we'll keep
Speaker 1: in mind that four grand number that the average family
Speaker 1: is spending on to keep organic food in their home. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so this study is interesting. They collected two hundred peer
Speaker 1: reviewed studies. This is the crazy part to me. The
Speaker 1: way they started was they searched fifty thousand papers that
Speaker 1: so there's been that many papers written over fifty years
Speaker 1: about organic food, so clearly there's a lot of interest
Speaker 1: in this. Then from fifty thousand they whittled that down
Speaker 1: to a hundred and sixty two that were relevant to
Speaker 1: the question of the nutrient content. This required them to
Speaker 1: compare the nutrient content in organic and conventionally grown food stuffs.
Speaker 1: Then they assess the quality of each one of those articles,
Speaker 1: and of those, only fifty five of those articles were
Speaker 1: identified as being of satisfactory quality. So this says something
Speaker 1: about sort of like the the um I guess rigor
Speaker 1: of the scientific studies on organic foods alone, like how
Speaker 1: much quality was put into them and sort of like
Speaker 1: how much scrutiny was put into them for this particular
Speaker 1: Annals of Internal Medicine. Uh, Look, they ultimately came down
Speaker 1: and said, uh, we're gonna identify the satisfactory quality and
Speaker 1: look at thirteen of the most commonly reported nutrient categories
Speaker 1: across the board here. Yes, so a lot of this
Speaker 1: is coming down to nutrients, Like is organic a more
Speaker 1: nutritious choice than conventional? And the studies indicated this is
Speaker 1: not the case. And but one of the primary reasons
Speaker 1: is that organic and conventional veggies they vary tremendously in
Speaker 1: terms of their nutritional payload. So you have so many
Speaker 1: different factors, genetic makeup of different varieties, the rightness, the weather,
Speaker 1: when is this food coming in, where is it coming from,
Speaker 1: how long is it take to get there? It all
Speaker 1: factors in and or the organic conventional divide is not
Speaker 1: the best divide between higher and lower nutritional quality, and
Speaker 1: we don't have a good system to measure these things yet. Yeah.
Speaker 1: One of the really interesting sort of like anecto oats
Speaker 1: that put this into perspective for me is like you
Speaker 1: can go to the grocery store and you've got the
Speaker 1: carrots in front of you, and one carrot can be
Speaker 1: sitting next to another carrot and it can have three
Speaker 1: times the amount of beta caroteen as its neighbor that's
Speaker 1: on the same shelf. And that's not even whether they're
Speaker 1: organic or conventionally grown, right, it's just based on all
Speaker 1: of these different factors that go into growing a thing
Speaker 1: in the world. Now, I also want to point out
Speaker 1: and this this kind of dips back into our potential
Speaker 1: pros category here, but a I do like two British
Speaker 1: journal nutrition study they argued that you see seventeen percent
Speaker 1: more anti oxidants in many forms of organic produce. Um,
Speaker 1: So for some nutrients, organics might be better. For other nutrients,
Speaker 1: conventional might be higher. Again, it doesn't give us a
Speaker 1: clear indication, but it may be uh, you know, pushes
Speaker 1: a few more points back in the in the pro category.
Speaker 1: And then of course another we're focusing here on on
Speaker 1: a nutritional value on anti oxidants, but that's hardly the
Speaker 1: only factor. Who we've already talked about pesticides. But then
Speaker 1: also there is the distance that the food is traveling
Speaker 1: to reach you. Yeah, So the way that this is
Speaker 1: measured is in something called food miles, and there was
Speaker 1: a study that looked in particular at the greenhouse gases
Speaker 1: that were emitted when produces transported long distance and how
Speaker 1: that mitigated the benefits of growing them organically. And by
Speaker 1: food miles, what we're talking about here is the distance
Speaker 1: that the food travels from the field to the store. Ultimately,
Speaker 1: buying organic food is comparable to its environmental impact, uh
Speaker 1: tow conventional food grown the bought at the market based
Speaker 1: on the miles. And the example here goes like this. Essentially,
Speaker 1: so you've got mangoes and green peppers. Let's look at those. Okay,
Speaker 1: mangoes travel from Ecuador or Peru to the United States
Speaker 1: rather than from Mexico to the United States, so they've
Speaker 1: got longer to travel, which means that they're you know,
Speaker 1: burning more fuel. Green peppers, if they're growing organically, they're
Speaker 1: grown in Mexico instead of in the United States. So
Speaker 1: again a further food mile from as they say, from
Speaker 1: the farm to the market. Uh, and so ultimately that
Speaker 1: ends up adding to the environmental impact. So the take
Speaker 1: I'm here is if the recipe calls from mango, go
Speaker 1: ahead and substitute green pepper, and you can feel a
Speaker 1: little better about your pepper. Yeah, exactly. Well, what they
Speaker 1: actually recommend is they just say, you know, if if
Speaker 1: it's that big of a concern to you, switch to
Speaker 1: locally produced food or go to your local farmers market. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I think that's always so good. I mean, that's why
Speaker 1: I enjoy going to the local farmers market, you know.
Speaker 1: And and I say that with the caveat that there, Yeah,
Speaker 1: you end up engaging in a lot of a lot
Speaker 1: of judgment calls that are more based in Oh well,
Speaker 1: this hearkens back to some idealistic idea about what agriculture is.
Speaker 1: This feels more you know, granola and and comfortable. But
Speaker 1: but yeah, some of the some of the science indicates
Speaker 1: that it's a good choice. Some of the science indicates, uh, well,
Speaker 1: maybe you're just paying extra for the feeling and the
Speaker 1: experience of going to the farmers markets opposed to the
Speaker 1: nutritional take up. I suppose that's like always keep in
Speaker 1: the back of your mind, like, uh, let's go back
Speaker 1: to that marketing study, like is how much of your
Speaker 1: egos involved in there? And how much of your altruisms
Speaker 1: involved there? And sort of way the two against one another. Um,
Speaker 1: so there's we said, like, there haven't been a lot
Speaker 1: of long term studies done here except one. There's one
Speaker 1: really long term st being done and it's out of
Speaker 1: you see Davis. And it's called the Long Term Research
Speaker 1: on Farming Systems Project. It started in and the goal
Speaker 1: is for it to go a hundred years so they
Speaker 1: can see what the benefits and cons of organic farming are.
Speaker 1: So it's been twelve it started in nineteen any one,
Speaker 1: so it's been a little over twenty years at this point.
Speaker 1: After ten years, they found one thing, well at least
Speaker 1: one thing that was worth report. Okay, uh, tomatoes raised
Speaker 1: inorganic plots contain significantly higher levels of certain antioxidant compounds,
Speaker 1: and that gets us back to the antioxidant thing. But
Speaker 1: for the most part, most studies about organic food are
Speaker 1: conducted over like a two two and a half year
Speaker 1: span if that, so we're not really looking at longitudinal
Speaker 1: effects on how this affects a human being throughout the
Speaker 1: course of their lifetime. But hey, when that study finishes up,
Speaker 1: individuals who are alive then will have the benefit of
Speaker 1: the study and maybe they'll get to go see that
Speaker 1: Robert Roderiguez film that went in the vault and listen
Speaker 1: to that Secret Utang album. All Right, we're gonna take
Speaker 1: a quick break and when we come back, we're gonna
Speaker 1: jump right into it. Hey, everybody in this day and age,
Speaker 1: you have to have a quality website. You want to
Speaker 1: be professional, you want to look professional. The thing is
Speaker 1: not everybody has access to all the the top shelf
Speaker 1: tools and talents required to make a great website. And
Speaker 1: that's where squarespace dot com comes into play. They have
Speaker 1: all the tools and a very usable interface. You are
Speaker 1: not going to have to learn how the code in
Speaker 1: order to in order to build a professional looking website.
Speaker 1: Now we want you to try this out for yourself.
Speaker 1: Now is the time to build that website you've been
Speaker 1: dreaming off. So heading over to square space and use
Speaker 1: our promo code mind blown. This will get you in
Speaker 1: the door with a ten percent off your first purchase
Speaker 1: and a free domain. So get out there square Space,
Speaker 1: build that website. All right, there's a couple other cons
Speaker 1: uh to organic farming that we should hit here. So
Speaker 1: they may, like we said, they may or may not
Speaker 1: actually be healthier or less contaminated than conventional food. They're
Speaker 1: obviously more expensive. The reason why they're more expensive is
Speaker 1: because of intensive labor that's involved with handweeding, as well
Speaker 1: as the cost of feeding organic food to livestock. Right,
Speaker 1: so that you know grows over time. And like I said,
Speaker 1: even though organic farmers don't use pesticides, chemicals can still
Speaker 1: blowing into their farms, and in particular, the soils can
Speaker 1: be polluted with something called polychlorinated biphennels uh and the
Speaker 1: soil there can be contaminated for up to three years.
Speaker 1: So that's why I've been saying three years over and
Speaker 1: over again throughout the episode, is because I had that
Speaker 1: research on the brain. Also, in the two thousands, there
Speaker 1: were actually salmonilla and E. Coal i outbreaks on organic
Speaker 1: foods like spinach. Oh. Yeah, this has been in the
Speaker 1: news very much so of late concerning certain restaurants as well. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and it's worth mentioning too, right. So the reason why
Speaker 1: is food contamination can increase when farmers use manure instead
Speaker 1: of synthetic fertilizers. Why, Well, because bacteria exists in manure. Right,
Speaker 1: it's more of a culprit for food borne illnesses, and
Speaker 1: this bacteria can get into the soil, increasing that risk
Speaker 1: even further. But keep in mind this is not not
Speaker 1: isolated just to organic farming. Right, we use maneuver for everything,
Speaker 1: and it's in conventional food too, right, I'm using it
Speaker 1: right now. Um. And then you've got the chemical and
Speaker 1: anti microbial washes that I mentioned earlier as well. So
Speaker 1: they're allowed in conventional farming, not allowed in organic farming.
Speaker 1: Uh so, but it leads to recalls of the foods
Speaker 1: that have the bacterial contamination in them, which is usually
Speaker 1: the organics that aren't sprayed with these washes. Uh. But
Speaker 1: you know that depends on how like again, like what
Speaker 1: do you want your food to be washed with water
Speaker 1: or anti microbial chemical baths? Um? This accounted for and
Speaker 1: by this I'm referring to specifically organic foods with bacterial contamination.
Speaker 1: It accounted for five to seven percent of all of
Speaker 1: the food recalls during the first half of so our
Speaker 1: numbers are basically from Uh, you know, we're in mid
Speaker 1: sixteen here and there hasn't been a while. There have
Speaker 1: been recalls, we haven't accounted for all of them yet.
Speaker 1: So probably because of organic foods expanding through the market share,
Speaker 1: that's why that food recall bacteria contamination has risen. It's
Speaker 1: not like because there's like a particular breakout necessarily. It's
Speaker 1: more along the lines of like we talked about earlier,
Speaker 1: people are buying a lot of organic food now and
Speaker 1: one last thing that they can of produce. And this
Speaker 1: is definitely I would I would say falls under the
Speaker 1: egoism uh clause here is that they spoil faster because
Speaker 1: they don't have the preservatives and pesticides and all that,
Speaker 1: all the chemical stuff that makes them look great for
Speaker 1: a long time. Uh, they go bad quicker. Yeah, that's
Speaker 1: the like because I remember as a remember as a kid,
Speaker 1: we would get these, you know, the giant red apples
Speaker 1: that all may kind of have kind of tasteless in
Speaker 1: a way, kind of waxy, but those things will last
Speaker 1: forever um and nowadays, especially if I'm at a certain
Speaker 1: store and we obtain a prepackaged container of organic produce,
Speaker 1: you get that home and you find, oh well, all
Speaker 1: the ones at the bottom are already starting to go bad,
Speaker 1: so I'm left with with half of what I paid
Speaker 1: um a premium price for Yes, it's true, it's true,
Speaker 1: and I have to eat those immediately or they're gonna go.
Speaker 1: But I get that, especially like when I buy spinach
Speaker 1: or when I buy strawberries, there's inevitably stuff that's already
Speaker 1: gone bad at the bottom, even after I just first
Speaker 1: brought it home from the grocery store. But hey, that's
Speaker 1: the way of life, all right. Well, you know so
Speaker 1: so so far, I feel like all that any of
Speaker 1: us can do is you sort of take all the
Speaker 1: information and figure out to what extent you're going to
Speaker 1: utilize it in your food choices, and then how you're
Speaker 1: gonna roll that out. So for me, it sounds like
Speaker 1: what I would want to do is I I like
Speaker 1: the tomato fact, and hey, I like fresh tomatoes. I
Speaker 1: like fresh local tomatus when they're in season. I should
Speaker 1: I should go that route, maybe get the antioxidant boost.
Speaker 1: But what can I do about the pesticide issue? Yeah, well,
Speaker 1: you know, in terms of cutting pesticides out of your food,
Speaker 1: and maybe you also want to watch your budget. Here
Speaker 1: are the most pesticide Latin foods in particular. So let's
Speaker 1: say you you're like, all right, I want to buy
Speaker 1: organic just to like focus on the pesticides and and
Speaker 1: keep them out of my kid's body, right, Okay, The
Speaker 1: most pesticide Latin foods are apples, celery, sweet bell peppers, peaches, strawberries,
Speaker 1: imported nectarines, grapes, spinach, lettuce, cucumbers, blueberries, and potatoes. Okay, However,
Speaker 1: the least pesticide residue is found on cabbage, onions, avocados,
Speaker 1: sweet corn, sweet peas, pineapples, mangoes, asparagus, kiwi, and grapefruit.
Speaker 1: So those are the ones that you can worry less about, right,
Speaker 1: Maybe you know, if you're weighing the scales of justice
Speaker 1: between your pocketbook and the pesticide factor, you know, maybe
Speaker 1: it's okay to go ahead and buy an avocado that's
Speaker 1: not organic. All right. So there you have it, organic food.
Speaker 1: Some of the pros, some of the cons, what the
Speaker 1: science is saying, what our hearts are saying. And we
Speaker 1: would love to hear from everyone, Like, like I said,
Speaker 1: we're not trying to make up anybody's mind here. I
Speaker 1: would like to hear what a what your take on
Speaker 1: organic foods is And then if you take any of
Speaker 1: the science to heart, if you take any of the
Speaker 1: the the arguments to heart, how do you roll that
Speaker 1: out in your own life? Like what choices are you making?
Speaker 1: What what is your line in the sand for organic
Speaker 1: and conventional. Another thing that we were not able to
Speaker 1: determine just by like doing the research that I have
Speaker 1: concerns about because I'm paranoid, is how these UH studies
Speaker 1: were funded to write, Like what kind of relationships the
Speaker 1: university has had with local farmers, whether they're organic farmers
Speaker 1: or conventional farmers, or just an industry in general. How
Speaker 1: are they funded? Who were they partners with, who are
Speaker 1: they friendly with? That kind of thing? You know. So
Speaker 1: maybe some of you are out there, you work in academia,
Speaker 1: and you go, oh hey, I remember that study. The
Speaker 1: reason why it said that though, was this you know
Speaker 1: the secret history behind it. I mean I worked in
Speaker 1: academia long enough to know that things like that happen. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean. And it also comes back to the fact
Speaker 1: that there are major players involved here. This is totally
Speaker 1: this is this is how we eat, So that the
Speaker 1: government is involved, UH, major organic food companies, major major
Speaker 1: conventional food companies, and often those are the same companies
Speaker 1: with their their hands in both pots. Yeah, and let's
Speaker 1: remember that one trillion dollar number, right, everybody's going to
Speaker 1: be fighting for a part of that pie, whether it's
Speaker 1: an organic pie or not. Indeed, indeed, all right, So, hey,
Speaker 1: you want to get in touch with us, you want
Speaker 1: to reach out to us again, go to stuff to
Speaker 1: Blow your Mind dot com. That's the mothership, that's we'll
Speaker 1: find all the podcast videos, blog post links out to
Speaker 1: social media accounts like Facebook and Twitter. We are blow
Speaker 1: the Mind on both of those. We are also on
Speaker 1: Tumbler and Instagram. And if you want to write us directly,
Speaker 1: the old fashioned way to talk to us about organic food,
Speaker 1: you can hit us up at blow the Mind at
Speaker 1: how stuff works dot com for more on this and
Speaker 1: thousands of other topics. Is it how stuff works? Doot
Speaker 1: column