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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Bloomberg P and L Podcast. I'm Pim

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Speaker 1: Fox along with my co host Lisa Abramowitz. Each day

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Speaker 1: we bring you the most important, noteworthy, and useful interviews

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Speaker 1: for you and your money, whether you're at the grocery

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Speaker 1: store or the trading floor. Find the Bloomberg P L

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Speaker 1: Podcast on iTunes, SoundCloud and at Bloomberg dot com. I

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Speaker 1: want to turn back to the currency market since since uh, frankly,

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Speaker 1: that's where a lot of the action has been and

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Speaker 1: that seems to be driving a lot of flows around

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Speaker 1: the world. I want to bring in Doug Borthwick, who

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Speaker 1: is Managing director and head of f X at Chapter

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Speaker 1: Lane and Company. UM. I want to start with China.

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Speaker 1: I know the dollar has been the big story because

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Speaker 1: of how strong it has gotten, but China seems to

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Speaker 1: be one of the big wild cards of how quickly

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Speaker 1: will it allow the un to depreciate? Um, Doug, what's

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Speaker 1: your a forecast for next year? And then? Well, I

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Speaker 1: think that China has been the whipping why this year,

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Speaker 1: but maybe not necessarily, maybe it shouldn't have been. I

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Speaker 1: think that certainly this year dollar China has moved up

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Speaker 1: by seven percent, So China in effect, is divided by

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Speaker 1: seven percent, but somewhere like you know, Switzerland's divided by

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Speaker 1: three and no one's pointing fingers there. Over the last

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Speaker 1: five years, the yen has depreciated by and China only nine.

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Speaker 1: And yet China is pointed to and people say, you

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Speaker 1: know that this is a currency that's being allowed to

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Speaker 1: to weaken considerably, whereas the Japanese are being given the

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Speaker 1: okay by G twenty to allow their currency to weken by.

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Speaker 1: There seems to be sort of a double standard when

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Speaker 1: it comes down to what currencies are doing around the world.

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Speaker 1: And now dollar China trades nowadays based off of where

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Speaker 1: the dollar is trading in general, because China obviously trades

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Speaker 1: off of a basket. So if you see a stronger

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Speaker 1: dollar globally in the dollar strengthens versus the euro, and

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Speaker 1: the dollar strengthens versus the yen, it expected to strength

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Speaker 1: and considerably against China. Now, our review certainly is that

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Speaker 1: the dollar going forward into the next year will probably

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Speaker 1: be plateauing around the levels we're seeing here. As the

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Speaker 1: excitement and fraudness over the new administration sort of shart

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Speaker 1: starts to turn over with the reality of what happens

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Speaker 1: in Washington, how you expect to see the dollar to

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Speaker 1: start to weaken versus the yen and also versus the euro.

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Speaker 1: If that is to happen, then you'll see the dollars

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Speaker 1: start to weaken against China, and you'll see a sort

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Speaker 1: of a move back. There's one thing that we are

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Speaker 1: concerned about, and that is extreme dollar strength is negative

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Speaker 1: for the world in a number of different ways. One

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Speaker 1: extreme dollar strength, they will probably not help President elect

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Speaker 1: Trump when it comes down to his policies of exporting

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Speaker 1: more US goods and employing more US you know, uh workers.

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Speaker 1: Another thing the strong dollar does in Asia specifically, as

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Speaker 1: it means that you know, the dollar rises versus Korea,

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Speaker 1: versus Taiwan, versus Thailand, Indonesia, all emerging mark its currencies

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Speaker 1: start to weaken considerably. When that happens, they have trouble

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Speaker 1: and paying back their US dollar denominated debts. And when

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Speaker 1: that happens, you get another emerging markets crisis. So we

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Speaker 1: believe strongly that that while a strong dollar may have

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Speaker 1: been in the US interest in terms of making America

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Speaker 1: great again, a weaker dollar may actually be more important.

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Speaker 1: Dog Borthark, I just want to push back a little

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Speaker 1: bit on your sort of description of China as a

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Speaker 1: whipping boy for currency manipulation, bringing in Japan and Switzerland.

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Speaker 1: I mean, the Chinese have the highest trade surplus with

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Speaker 1: the United States, the Netherlands, India, Vietnam, United Kingdom, Singapore.

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Speaker 1: There's no, uh, there's no switzerlanda on that list. I

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Speaker 1: mean the reason isn't it political? I mean, you're a

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Speaker 1: currency trader. A lot of this has to do with

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Speaker 1: just plain politics. I think plain politics is a huge

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Speaker 1: part of all this. And one thing we have seen

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Speaker 1: over the last five years in terms of where's the

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Speaker 1: sphere of influence moving, it's certainly moving away from the

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Speaker 1: US and towards China, especially on a trade basis. I say,

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Speaker 1: five years ago, or well, let's say ten years ago,

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Speaker 1: the US was the number one or number two trading

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Speaker 1: partner pretty much for every country around the world, and

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Speaker 1: China's now taken that spot. And that's something that's I

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Speaker 1: think of considerable interest, not just when it comes down

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Speaker 1: to currencies, but also when it comes down to matters

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Speaker 1: at the U N matters when it comes down to

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Speaker 1: talking about trade in that China now has much bigger

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Speaker 1: say at the table because you normally vote with your

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Speaker 1: largest trading partner and not necessarily with um, you know,

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Speaker 1: the night the guy sitting next to you. But this

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Speaker 1: has been going on since I mean, this has been

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Speaker 1: going on since since two thousand thirteen. Right, China was

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Speaker 1: the largest trading nation in the world as of then.

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Speaker 1: We're talking about like almost two trillion dollars, more than

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Speaker 1: two trillion dollars worth of stuff, and that doesn't even

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Speaker 1: include foreign investments. That's right. Well, you know, I guess

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Speaker 1: I'm trying to think about it from a trader's perspective.

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Speaker 1: I mean, the political sphere right now is is pretty foggy.

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Speaker 1: It's hard to get a clear sense of what exactly

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Speaker 1: is going to happen in the next three months, let

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Speaker 1: alone year. Um. But certainly we are getting a clear

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Speaker 1: sense from the Federal Reserve that they are going to

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Speaker 1: hike rate at a faster pace than people have been

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Speaker 1: expecting back in September. Do you think that if the

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Speaker 1: Fed does go through with three rate hikes next year,

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Speaker 1: that will lead the dollar higher than sort of this

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Speaker 1: level that we're at right now. I think the level

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Speaker 1: that we're right now is looking at that information of

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Speaker 1: the three rate hikes and is pondering it. I think

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Speaker 1: that three rate hikes would be rather aggressive, given that

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Speaker 1: we've had two rate hikes in the last two years,

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Speaker 1: so saying that they will have three next year seems

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Speaker 1: rather bullish. But then again, the FEDS always pushed this

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Speaker 1: sort of very bullish game of the U s economy

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Speaker 1: and then ended up sort of changing their opinions as

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Speaker 1: time goes on. I think that what's what's really interesting

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Speaker 1: is you've seen the US tenure moved from this one

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Speaker 1: forty in mid two thousand and sixteen not to what

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Speaker 1: two fifty five today. That's a huge move in ten years.

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Speaker 1: And I think that you know, there's a lot of

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Speaker 1: interest rate rises that are maybe priced into this this curve.

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Speaker 1: But if the US wants to do a number of

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Speaker 1: things that is, issued debts so they can get into

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Speaker 1: infrastructure spending, they'd probably rather a lower interest rate than

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Speaker 1: a higher interest rate. And also, if the FED was

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Speaker 1: to be as aggressive as people are expecting, or the

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Speaker 1: FED is certainly said, I think you would see a

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Speaker 1: stronger dollar at least a stable around these levels. But

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Speaker 1: I think that there's one thing we've seen in the

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Speaker 1: US economy, and that is that it tends to disappoint

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Speaker 1: relatives at bad expectations. I want to thank you very

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Speaker 1: much for joining us Douglas Boorthwick as managing director ahead

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Speaker 1: of FFX at Chapter Lane and Company. Well, there might

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Speaker 1: not be that much going on in in sort of

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Speaker 1: the corporate news world, but there is quite a bit

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Speaker 1: going on in the legal world. I'm looking in this

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Speaker 1: instance at the lawsuit the charge of UH the federal prosecutors.

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Speaker 1: Basically the co founder of the bankrupt hedge fund Platinum.

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Speaker 1: Platinum Partners. UH was charged with what federal prosecutors said

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Speaker 1: was a one billion dollar fraud resembling a Ponzi scheme.

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Speaker 1: I want to bring in Zeke Fox, a Bloomberg News reporter,

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Speaker 1: to elaborate on what exactly this case is all about.

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Speaker 1: Zeke High Um. Yes, So, Platinum Partners is a hedge

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Speaker 1: fund that manages, or at least claim to manage, more

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Speaker 1: than a billion dollars, and up until last year, it

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Speaker 1: looked like it was one of the most successful hedge

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Speaker 1: funds in the world. It had reported games on average

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Speaker 1: since two thousand and three, with no down years and

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Speaker 1: only actually a few down months. Um. Now it all

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Speaker 1: started to come unraveled this summer when one of its

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Speaker 1: managers was arrested for allegedly bribing a union official to

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Speaker 1: invest and people start to think, if this fund is

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Speaker 1: so good, why do they have to bribe people to

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Speaker 1: invest in it? And now apparently we have the answer. Uh.

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Speaker 1: The other managers of the fund got arrested or charged

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Speaker 1: today by a grand jury, and prosecutors are saying that

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Speaker 1: the fund wasn't really doing as well as it claimed. Well,

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Speaker 1: how much money was potentially lost as a result of

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Speaker 1: this uh ponzi leg scheme? That or at least that's

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Speaker 1: how it's described by prosecutors. So in investors, you know,

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Speaker 1: they're still getting uh their statements saying that they have

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Speaker 1: you know, a total of one point four billion dollars

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Speaker 1: in there. Now. After the first arrest this summer, the

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Speaker 1: hedge fund closed, said it was entered bankruptcy protection and

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Speaker 1: said it was going to liquidate its position slowly and

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Speaker 1: distribute the money to investors. So just because it's bankrupt

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Speaker 1: doesn't mean it went to zero. Um, but we really

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Speaker 1: have no idea what investors will get back, and this

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Speaker 1: arrest is certainly today is certainly not a good sign.

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Speaker 1: Zeke aren't there controls in place to prevent funds from

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Speaker 1: misrepresenting the information that they give out about their performance

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Speaker 1: as well as the amount of money that they manage. Yes.

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Speaker 1: So the way they were able to perhaps flip through

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Speaker 1: the cracks is that their fund, unlike most funds, was

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Speaker 1: made up of very ill liquid, hard to value investment,

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Speaker 1: you know, like oil wells or just things that weren't traded,

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Speaker 1: so they would get in California I believe, is the

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Speaker 1: specific instance correct. Yes, So they had one of their

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Speaker 1: biggest assets was the string of oil wells in California.

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Speaker 1: They were claiming it's worth hundreds of millions of dollars UM.

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Speaker 1: And I actually when it investigated this earlier this year

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Speaker 1: and found that they basically never produced any oil um.

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Speaker 1: But because this is a private company, it's not something

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Speaker 1: that the SEC is really checking out UM, and the

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Speaker 1: auditors when they audit the books are sort of relying

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Speaker 1: on all these third party reports that say, oh, the

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Speaker 1: oil well has a lot of potential or things like that.

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Speaker 1: So it's just a little harder to uh see that

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Speaker 1: they weren't getting the returns that that they claimed. And

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Speaker 1: I'm sure they're going to try and argue that these

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Speaker 1: things really are valuable, and that the prosecutors are wrong,

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Speaker 1: that that they are worthless, and that the fund is

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Speaker 1: a fraud. Who are who? As of the clients are

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Speaker 1: the types of clients that could be on the hook

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Speaker 1: for some potential losses if these things, if the assets

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Speaker 1: are not as valuable as the hedge fund managers say. Well.

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Speaker 1: The first is the New York City Prison Guards Union.

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Speaker 1: That's the pension fund that its manager allegedly took a

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Speaker 1: bribe to put tens of millions of dollars into this

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Speaker 1: hedge fund, Norman Seabrook. That's right, um, and he was

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Speaker 1: arrested as well. Most of the other investors are wealthy individuals.

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Speaker 1: The managers of fund were very well known among the

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Speaker 1: New York's Orthodox Jewish community, and many of the investors

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Speaker 1: are people that knew from their charity work or just

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Speaker 1: other prominent Orthodox Jews. They didn't attract a lot of

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Speaker 1: investment from other big pension funds. I think because the

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Speaker 1: pension on consultants I showed it to said that there

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Speaker 1: are already so many red flags with this funds that

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Speaker 1: would be hard to get a big institution to invest

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Speaker 1: what kinds of red flags. I mean, other than the

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Speaker 1: fact that that they invested in only highly liquid assets

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Speaker 1: that were hard to check out. It's hard to know

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Speaker 1: where to start. So I first, uh, I've been investing

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Speaker 1: in these guys for a few years. They invest in

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Speaker 1: all sorts of random things, and often the things go poorly,

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Speaker 1: even though they're always saying they make money. UM. An

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Speaker 1: example is this is a few years ago, they invested

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Speaker 1: in this sort of they found this what they thought

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Speaker 1: was a loophole in variable annuity contracts. They essentially got

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Speaker 1: hospice patients to sign up for veriable annuities using the

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Speaker 1: hedge funds money. And it was the idea was that

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Speaker 1: there was like a sign up bonus and if the

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Speaker 1: patients died quickly, they could earn a sign up bonus

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Speaker 1: for the hedge fund. They ended up getting in trouble

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Speaker 1: with the sec for this UM it was not a

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Speaker 1: loophole as they thought. So there's like a million little

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Speaker 1: stories like this, and I think some people start the

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Speaker 1: question is if they're always trying to operating in these

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Speaker 1: gray areas, are they really going to be honest with

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Speaker 1: their own investors too? Right? Zeke Fox, I remember that story.

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Speaker 1: It was a great story. Zeke Fox and Bloomberg News,

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Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining us. All right, let's

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Speaker 1: solve the issue of the US dollar and its strength.

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Speaker 1: I want to bring in Joel Stern. He is the

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Speaker 1: chairman and the chief executive of Stern Value Management. Joel Stern,

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Speaker 1: always a pleasure give us your take on the strength

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Speaker 1: of the U. S dollar, what's causing it and what

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Speaker 1: do you believe will happen next. The US dollar is

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Speaker 1: strong because everybody is going to be doing lots more

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Speaker 1: business in US. Listen, around the world, people are expecting

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Speaker 1: much higher rates of return to be earned on capital employees.

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Speaker 1: That's very important. UH. There are two reasons for that.

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Speaker 1: Number one is getting rid of onerous regulations. What that

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Speaker 1: does is it not only improves the existing returns, but

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Speaker 1: it reduces the risk about making future investment as well.

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Speaker 1: And the second has to do with the UH cutting

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Speaker 1: of the maginal statutory tax rate from say, if you

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Speaker 1: include city and state trading partners in Europe alone, twenty

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Speaker 1: three percent. If you take about of our major trading partners,

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Speaker 1: it actually averages close. In other words, if why would

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Speaker 1: you not take your business overseas? If you could have

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Speaker 1: a lower tax rate by fully half. It just doesn't

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Speaker 1: make any In other words, what I'm saying to you is,

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Speaker 1: I don't think that Donald Trump has to be rate

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Speaker 1: companies for doing something that is simply the result of

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Speaker 1: normal gravitation, sation, old forces in the economy, people going

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Speaker 1: overseas for a good reason. If he takes care of

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Speaker 1: these two things, I believe it will be only a

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Speaker 1: trickle leaving the country. And I believe lots of what

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Speaker 1: left the country will actually start to come back because

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Speaker 1: there were reasons why companies wanted to do business in

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Speaker 1: the United States in the first place. Well, we're taking

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Speaker 1: away the impediments. That's what it comes down to. So

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Speaker 1: joel Um, based on what you're saying, the dollar to

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Speaker 1: the dollar rally, how much of what you're talking about,

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Speaker 1: which is tax reform and making the tax policies in

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Speaker 1: the US more business friendly for companies that have already

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Speaker 1: taken their business overseas to bring them back. How much

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Speaker 1: of that bringing back of business and tax reform gotten

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Speaker 1: priced into the dollar versus how much has the dollar

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Speaker 1: risen on the expectation that this will happen, but could

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Speaker 1: get dampened if it doesn't happen fast enough. Well, fast

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Speaker 1: enough is not someone of me. There's a legislative process here.

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Speaker 1: You can't just a president. Although a recent current president

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Speaker 1: decided through executive order to do various things. But Donald

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Speaker 1: Trump has said he doesn't like that idea. He wants

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Speaker 1: to reduce the executive power and turn much of that

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Speaker 1: back to the legislature. What so we need to simply

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Speaker 1: get this thing done and done quickly. What will happen

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Speaker 1: is that the President will give a State of the

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Speaker 1: Union address UH after his inauguration, and that will tell

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Speaker 1: us a great deal because by that time, UH, he

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Speaker 1: will be able to get some notion as to whether

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Speaker 1: or not the Republican leadership in the in the House

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Speaker 1: is going to go along with him. Because this is

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Speaker 1: the Ways and Means Committee, this is not the United

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Speaker 1: States Senate. He has to deal with the Congress. So

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Speaker 1: having a strong liaison with the Congress will tell us

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Speaker 1: a great deal about that. The liaison to the Congress.

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Speaker 1: That's what we have to get onto the news programs

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Speaker 1: on Sunday. You get the liaison on there will learn

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Speaker 1: a lot a lot more. But the important thing now

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Speaker 1: is that there is a complete change in attitude keep

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Speaker 1: in mind that when Hillary Clinton was running for president,

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Speaker 1: whether it was caused by Sanders or not, she said,

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Speaker 1: I'm going to increase eat regulations, I'm going to increase taxation.

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Speaker 1: Can you believe that? Now? What? By the way, the

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Speaker 1: test is going to be simple. My teacher Milton Friedman

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Speaker 1: used to say, it would be nice if monetary policy

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Speaker 1: was expensive and Kansian policy tight, or the reverse, so

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Speaker 1: we could test the two theories. We're gonna be able

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Speaker 1: to test the political theory on on this whole subject

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Speaker 1: by whether or not. And of course it's happening already.

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Speaker 1: The stock market takes the present value of the future

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Speaker 1: performance and why the market is so strong the markets

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Speaker 1: I'll believing that there's going to be a very substantial

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Speaker 1: improvement in operating performance of companies. And what I'm saying is,

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Speaker 1: even if it doesn't happen in the current year, that's

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Speaker 1: the year two thousand seventeen. If it doesn't happen, that

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Speaker 1: it won't matter, because it's whether it happens in eighteen

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Speaker 1: or nineteen and twent so forth. It's the present value

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Speaker 1: of that that is already in the price of the shares.

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Speaker 1: Let me just mention Joelstern. Some news from Bloomberg that

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Speaker 1: the President elect Donald Trump is considering nominating x U

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Speaker 1: S Attorney Debra Wang Yang to run the Securities and

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Speaker 1: Change Commission. She would be the second consecutive former federal

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Speaker 1: prosecutor to lead UH this regulatory body. Joel Stern, interest rates,

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Speaker 1: rising interest rates, and inflation or expectations of inflation. Give

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Speaker 1: us your thoughts, then it's a great question. Everybody has

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Speaker 1: been talking about the rise in interest rates as being

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Speaker 1: caused by an increase in inflationary expectations. In my view,

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Speaker 1: that is absolutely false, and the evidence is the decline

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Speaker 1: in the gold price. The gold price is a function

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Speaker 1: of the reciproc it's it's it's a function of the

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Speaker 1: real US interest rate on governmental securities. What's happened is

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Speaker 1: that the increase and interest rates, real interest rates, has

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Speaker 1: caused the gold price to go down. If interest rates

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Speaker 1: went up and the gold price went up at the

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Speaker 1: same time, then I would say, oh, here comes inflation.

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Speaker 1: But it interest rates rise because of a rise in

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Speaker 1: what are called real interest rates. And what's the reason

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Speaker 1: for that? Because the rates of return on cap in

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Speaker 1: the United States are going to be much much higher

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Speaker 1: than they are now, and the signal to the rest

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Speaker 1: of the world is the real industrate. I would prepare

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Speaker 1: that real infustrates would be five percent, because then it

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Speaker 1: would be saying, Wow, we're going to go back to

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Speaker 1: the time when the average industrial cooperation in America earned

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Speaker 1: a return of between twelve and on its capital employed.

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Speaker 1: I would like to see that again. If that happens,

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Speaker 1: we'll see the doubt Jones industrial average probably up around

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Speaker 1: Let me just mention that the price of gold has

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Speaker 1: dropped about fifteen per cent since the November election. That's right,

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Speaker 1: you know, as you talk to Joel, I'm thinking to

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Speaker 1: myself usually when people talk about higher real rates, it

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Speaker 1: might be helpful for the economy once we get there,

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Speaker 1: but the but the path there is pretty rocky. I mean,

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Speaker 1: what do you think, what's your outlook for for bonds

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Speaker 1: in the first half of next year. I think investors

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Speaker 1: in bonds, Lisa are going to be in big trouble. Uh.

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Speaker 1: In fact, you know, the pin comes of the world

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Speaker 1: have been moved the shorter and shorter materities because they

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Speaker 1: don't want to get whacked on those long term bond

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Speaker 1: rates changing. If long term interest rates go up as

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Speaker 1: they have. Incidentally, the thirty year bond right now is

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Speaker 1: around three fifteen. Do you know that when Trump was

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Speaker 1: elected at the beginning of November, I think that rate

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Speaker 1: was somewhere around two forty And so this is a

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Speaker 1: huge increase and that's why the gold price has come

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Speaker 1: but very sharply down. But again, the gold price coming

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Speaker 1: down means that it's a rise in real interest rates

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Speaker 1: and not inflationary expectations. Can I just make one other comment.

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Speaker 1: I was listening to you before I found your discussing

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Speaker 1: fascinating about the real estate prices in Washington. Keep in mind,

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Speaker 1: one of the major reasons why the prices go up

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Speaker 1: is because the people who were in office company. That's fair.

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Speaker 1: Thank you so much for joining us to all Stern

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Speaker 1: Chairman and CEO of Stern Value Management talking about why

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Speaker 1: the increase in rates is not necessarily because of INFLA

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Speaker 1: and why the dollar could get stronger ahead. Apple is

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Speaker 1: preparing for a tax battle, particularly one in the European Union.

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Speaker 1: It has officially appealed the European Union's August decision UH

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Speaker 1: to claw back thirteen point six billion dollars and unpaid

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Speaker 1: taxes from the iPhone maker. Over taxes that they did

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Speaker 1: not have to pay in Ireland. I want to bring

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Speaker 1: in somebody who can speak much better about this than

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Speaker 1: I can. Matt Larsen, litigation analyst and Bloomberg Intelligence back,

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Speaker 1: can you just sort of give us an overview of

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Speaker 1: what this case really is about? Yeah, certainly so. Back

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Speaker 1: in the European Commission requested Ireland uh submit how taxes

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Speaker 1: were calculated on a number of companies that either claimed

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Speaker 1: residents or non taxable residents in Ireland. Ireland has a

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Speaker 1: very low corporate tax rate and a lot of multinational

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Speaker 1: corporations make use of the favorable tax laws in Ireland

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Speaker 1: to get pretty good deals on how the company transfers

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Speaker 1: things to various subsidiaries and reduces their overall tax liability. UM.

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Speaker 1: Among those companies was Ireland, and in March of the

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Speaker 1: European Commission instituted a formal investigation of Ireland's tax arrangements

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Speaker 1: with Apple That took a couple of years and will

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Speaker 1: fast forward to when the European Commission basically found that

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Speaker 1: Ireland had undercollected uh fourteen I'm sorry, thirteen billion euros

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Speaker 1: of taxes. So these are thirteen billion on essentially Uh,

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Speaker 1: internal revenues, transfer prices, intellectual property licensing revenue that went untaxed. Uh,

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Speaker 1: kind of that that Apple was was transferring between subsidiaries

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Speaker 1: in Ireland. Right, So is it just this third team

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Speaker 1: point six billion dollars or thirteen euros thirteen billion euros

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Speaker 1: that's on the line here, or does this appeal sort

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Speaker 1: of set a precedent for an even larger amount of money.

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Speaker 1: Are a large amount of back taxes that Apple would

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Speaker 1: potentially have to pay? Yeah, So the investigation, the investigation

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Speaker 1: that's going on now just looks at these thirteen point

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Speaker 1: six but there's there's a bigger story here. There's there's

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Speaker 1: a lot more dollars at stake in terms of how, um,

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Speaker 1: how the Irish Revenue Service is going to revisit its taxation,

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Speaker 1: how the European Commission is cracking down on these deals.

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Speaker 1: So there's potentially a much larger universe of revenue, and

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Speaker 1: not just for Apple, but for other tech companies in

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Speaker 1: Ireland as well. I mentioned it the onset that in UM,

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Speaker 1: the European Commission was looking into a number of different companies. Uh.

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Speaker 1: They just published a public version of the opinion in

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Speaker 1: the Apple decision. UM and they used nine comps. They

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Speaker 1: didn't list to the companies were, but they took a

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Speaker 1: look at practices across nine different companies, and UM alluded

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Speaker 1: to the fact that there wasn't a uniform way that

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Speaker 1: taxes were calculated in any one of those scenarios. So

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Speaker 1: it signals that there could be a much bigger issue

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Speaker 1: of taxation in Ireland that's gonna be revisited UM And

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Speaker 1: obviously Apple's future tax liabilities in question here depending on

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Speaker 1: what happens with the with the current litigation. Matt, how

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Speaker 1: about the European Union investigate the tax policies of other

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Speaker 1: European Union countries because I was looking at the ire

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Speaker 1: the Irish tax, uh, world corporate tax Let's just do

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Speaker 1: the comparison, right, corporate tax rate in the United States

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Speaker 1: thirty five. Ireland's taxation rate for corporations twelve and a

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Speaker 1: half percent, but they only charge six and a quarter

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Speaker 1: percent for revenue that's tied to a company's patent or

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Speaker 1: intellectual property. And dig this. Even if you lose money

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Speaker 1: as a startup, there's a twenty five percent tax credit

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Speaker 1: which is applied against the corporate tax rate of twelve

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Speaker 1: and a half percent. And they get like more than

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Speaker 1: ten percent of the total the country's revenue comes from taxes.

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Speaker 1: Apple's got two hundred and thirty eight billion dollars in cash.

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Speaker 1: This is a check, Yeah, yeah, it really is. It's

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Speaker 1: a it's a fraction of their um, you know, a

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Speaker 1: fraction of their liability if you if you look at

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Speaker 1: the the EPs estimates, even if you know this is

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Speaker 1: gonna be litigated for a while, it's going to take

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Speaker 1: a couple of years to play out. But um, it's

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Speaker 1: really just kind of a marginal difference on um on

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Speaker 1: Apple's balance sheet. Uh yeah, the stock is up to stop.

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Speaker 1: Stock is up a buck and a quarter right now,

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Speaker 1: it's a hundred and seventeen four. Yeah, you know it's

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Speaker 1: no one's getting phased by this. Yeah, it's it's a

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Speaker 1: minor dent. It's some headline risk. It's negative news for

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Speaker 1: the company. Obviously, you don't want to be involved in

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Speaker 1: any proceeding that seems to instin risk for Ireland. Maybe yeah,

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Speaker 1: yeah there. You know. It was funny that the decision

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Speaker 1: was supposed to be released before elections in Ireland, and

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Speaker 1: some speculated that they pushed the decision back so that

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Speaker 1: they didn't upset Irish voters and influenced politics, influencing business

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Speaker 1: and taxes. Matt Larson, litigation analyst of Bloomberg Intelligence, giving

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Speaker 1: us some details about Ireland and taxes. Thanks for listening

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Speaker 1: to the Bloomberg pien L podcast. You can subscribe and

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00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:12,800
Speaker 1: listen to interviews at iTunes, SoundCloud, or whatever podcast platform

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00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:15,679
Speaker 1: you prefer. I'm Pim Fox. I'm out there on Twitter

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00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:19,480
Speaker 1: at pim Fox. I'm out there on Twitter at Lisa Abramo.

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Speaker 1: It's one before the podcast. You can always catch us

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Speaker 1: worldwide on Bloomberg Radio