WEBVTT - Cancel Culture is Solvable 0:00:15.076 --> 0:00:26.076 Pushkin, this is solvable. I'm Jacob Weisberg. America is being 0:00:26.196 --> 0:00:30.436 called out. There's a reckoning taking place, and at times 0:00:30.476 --> 0:00:34.236 a quite confrontational push to face up to our country's 0:00:34.356 --> 0:00:39.876 racist roots. One hundred and fifty demonstrators just gathered and 0:00:39.996 --> 0:00:44.796 they have just torn down the statue of Christopher Columbus. Yesterday, 0:00:44.836 --> 0:00:47.276 Cult announced that she would not make a planned appearance 0:00:47.316 --> 0:00:49.836 at University of California, Berkeley. People are talking a lot 0:00:49.876 --> 0:00:52.676 about what happened after a dinner date between the comedian 0:00:52.756 --> 0:00:54.756 as He's I'm Sorry and a young woman going by 0:00:54.756 --> 0:00:58.596 the name of Grace. In America's streets, across our university 0:00:58.636 --> 0:01:02.356 campuses and every day on social media, people are battling 0:01:02.396 --> 0:01:05.916 about what should be done to address racism, sexism, and 0:01:06.036 --> 0:01:11.476 other forms of historically embedded prejudice and justice. Battling power 0:01:11.636 --> 0:01:18.156 differentials that disadvantage people is the central goal of basically 0:01:18.156 --> 0:01:21.476 being any kind of moral actor in society. As justified 0:01:21.476 --> 0:01:24.916 as this outrage is, it comes in places with its 0:01:24.916 --> 0:01:30.196 own intolerant edge, demands to conform rather than debate, to suppress, 0:01:30.276 --> 0:01:34.156 and punish rather than engage. In other words, cancel culture 0:01:34.236 --> 0:01:36.196 is a real thing. Many people say why do these 0:01:36.196 --> 0:01:38.156 people have to be so mean? But you wouldn't ask 0:01:38.156 --> 0:01:40.436 that if it was about pedophilia. Nobody thinks that we 0:01:40.436 --> 0:01:44.316 should be very gentle in ejecting a pedophile from general society, 0:01:44.596 --> 0:01:47.876 but as firing someone always the right fix to shutting 0:01:47.876 --> 0:01:51.796 down debate equal progress. Has cancelation become a form of 0:01:51.876 --> 0:01:56.996 left wing McCarthyism. We haven't had an honest grappling with 0:01:57.036 --> 0:02:00.316 this yet, where a critical mass of people resist the 0:02:00.356 --> 0:02:04.796 stalinist extremes. John mcwarter is a professor of linguistics in 0:02:04.876 --> 0:02:08.516 American history at Columbia University. He spends a lot of 0:02:08.556 --> 0:02:11.196 his time thinking about how we choose and use words, 0:02:11.716 --> 0:02:17.316 and he believes cancel culture is solvable. My co host 0:02:17.316 --> 0:02:20.596 Anna Applebaum talked with Nick Warder about how a linguist 0:02:20.596 --> 0:02:23.836 looks at the battles around free speech and how those 0:02:23.916 --> 0:02:27.516 unfairly caught in the crosshairs can respond to name calling 0:02:27.636 --> 0:02:32.156 without engaging in shouting matches. Here's their conversation. It's some 0:02:32.316 --> 0:02:36.836 level cancel culture is. These are arguments about language, what 0:02:36.996 --> 0:02:41.236 you are and aren't allowed to say, how things are pronounced. 0:02:42.356 --> 0:02:44.876 How did you first fall in love with the quirks 0:02:44.916 --> 0:02:48.876 and hiccups of language. What drew you to this field. 0:02:50.116 --> 0:02:52.956 I'm a linguist, not for the reasons that I think 0:02:52.996 --> 0:02:55.676 many people might expect. It's not that I was especially 0:02:55.676 --> 0:02:58.236 well traveled as a child. Both of my parents spoke 0:02:58.276 --> 0:03:01.956 only English. But if I hear somebody speaking something other 0:03:02.036 --> 0:03:06.036 than English, I have this visceral desire to want to 0:03:06.076 --> 0:03:08.676 do it too, Like I'd like to understand what they're saying, 0:03:08.676 --> 0:03:10.276 but also I want to be able to do that. 0:03:10.396 --> 0:03:13.276 The first time I heard anybody speaking something other than English, 0:03:13.276 --> 0:03:16.356 who was Hebrew? Actually, I found myself thinking, I am 0:03:16.396 --> 0:03:18.396 so jealous of that girl that she can talk in 0:03:18.436 --> 0:03:21.316 that way that I can't understand. For me. Originally, it 0:03:21.476 --> 0:03:24.076 was just that they're these seven thousand different codes, and 0:03:24.116 --> 0:03:26.796 I don't want to know only one, so I also 0:03:26.876 --> 0:03:31.516 speak several languages. Tell me what you think about English. 0:03:31.556 --> 0:03:33.836 What does it do well and what does it do poorly? 0:03:34.156 --> 0:03:36.396 Do we debate a certain way in English? I think 0:03:36.396 --> 0:03:38.316 we do, actually, but I'd love to know what you think. 0:03:38.716 --> 0:03:42.236 We're an oddly unfussy language about all sorts of things 0:03:42.236 --> 0:03:45.916 that other languages make you mark and pay attention to. 0:03:46.236 --> 0:03:49.636 Because we're a language of the long written history. We 0:03:49.756 --> 0:03:54.116 have a kind of artificially preserved, enormous vocabulary, and that's 0:03:54.156 --> 0:03:56.156 true of any language with a long written history, but 0:03:56.196 --> 0:03:58.476 English is one of them, and it means that you 0:03:58.596 --> 0:04:03.436 have unnecessarily large collections of synonyms that allow you to 0:04:03.476 --> 0:04:09.436 express yourself in various ways. I find English to be funny. 0:04:09.476 --> 0:04:11.396 People who are into the speeches of Winston Churchill, et 0:04:11.396 --> 0:04:14.076 cetera think I'm crazy, But I find English crude. You know, 0:04:14.196 --> 0:04:18.076 it's it's fascinatingly streamlined. But it's other languages where I 0:04:18.076 --> 0:04:22.036 find myself just drowning in the subtleties and the things 0:04:22.036 --> 0:04:23.516 that they have to say that we have to leave 0:04:23.556 --> 0:04:26.276 the context. Yeah, I actually wonder if that isn't run 0:04:26.276 --> 0:04:28.956 of the reasons why English is the universal language, because 0:04:28.956 --> 0:04:32.556 in fact, it's pretty easy to speak bad English. It 0:04:32.156 --> 0:04:35.396 doesn't acquire a lot of grammatical knowledge. It's it has 0:04:35.436 --> 0:04:38.396 that symposim You can speak it badly quite easily, which 0:04:38.436 --> 0:04:41.996 is not true of actually most language. Yes, exactly. You know, 0:04:42.076 --> 0:04:44.676 as a linguistic professor, do you know how do you 0:04:44.756 --> 0:04:47.676 navigate sensitive language debates? Is there a different way to 0:04:47.716 --> 0:04:50.116 do it? There are certain things that you're taught, you 0:04:50.156 --> 0:04:53.996 are not supposed to say in our society. I'm just 0:04:54.156 --> 0:04:57.196 somebody who one. I like to keep things tidy, I 0:04:57.316 --> 0:04:58.916 like to make a case. I think, really I should 0:04:58.956 --> 0:05:00.796 have been a lawyer. I don't know if I would 0:05:00.796 --> 0:05:02.356 have been a good one, but that's the kind of 0:05:02.396 --> 0:05:05.556 mine that I think I have. And also I want 0:05:05.596 --> 0:05:08.356 to find stuff out. And I watch other people being 0:05:08.396 --> 0:05:10.716 told that they're not a allowed to and it certainly 0:05:10.716 --> 0:05:12.876 happened to me two or three times in my own 0:05:12.916 --> 0:05:15.436 academic career, and I don't think it's right. And I 0:05:15.436 --> 0:05:17.436 have a hard time keeping quiet when I don't think 0:05:17.476 --> 0:05:20.276 something is right. One person said about me once that 0:05:20.356 --> 0:05:23.316 when John gets mad, he writes a book, and that's 0:05:23.876 --> 0:05:26.356 more or less true. I just can't help it. I 0:05:26.396 --> 0:05:29.116 want things to be better than they are, and I'm cranky. 0:05:30.036 --> 0:05:32.836 What do you think of the term cancel culture? What 0:05:32.916 --> 0:05:35.716 do you think it now means? Well, we're already getting 0:05:35.876 --> 0:05:37.996 beyond it in a way, or at least I hope 0:05:38.036 --> 0:05:41.076 we can. Because originally the idea was that if and 0:05:41.116 --> 0:05:43.676 originally by that I mean say two years ago, the 0:05:43.716 --> 0:05:47.076 idea was that if we find out something unsavory and 0:05:47.156 --> 0:05:51.236 often genuinely unsavory about some celebrity that we're supposed to 0:05:51.276 --> 0:05:53.836 flush them from our consciousness as much as possible, And 0:05:53.876 --> 0:05:57.556 so that has become more extreme lately, is accepted by 0:05:57.676 --> 0:06:01.196 a larger number of people. And I think it's I 0:06:01.236 --> 0:06:05.476 could say dangerous, but it's also just really unfair, it's immoral, 0:06:05.796 --> 0:06:08.996 and yet I think most of us are inclined to 0:06:09.196 --> 0:06:12.396 pretend to go along with it because we're really frightened 0:06:12.396 --> 0:06:14.996 of a certain weapon that that crowd have, which is 0:06:14.996 --> 0:06:16.916 that they can call you a racist or a sexist. 0:06:17.196 --> 0:06:20.476 That's something that we need to renegotiate. And where is 0:06:20.516 --> 0:06:23.716 the desire to cancel people coming from? And you said 0:06:23.756 --> 0:06:27.276 that crowd or those people, who are they and what's 0:06:27.316 --> 0:06:29.916 their motive? Do you think this is what it is? 0:06:30.516 --> 0:06:35.076 Critical race theory? What it is is people who have 0:06:36.036 --> 0:06:41.916 drunk in an idea that battling power differentials that disadvantage 0:06:41.956 --> 0:06:46.676 people is the central goal of basically being any kind 0:06:46.716 --> 0:06:49.396 of moral actor in society, and that it must center 0:06:49.756 --> 0:06:52.916 what we consider intellectual inquiry to be. It must center 0:06:53.276 --> 0:06:56.516 what we consider art to be, It must center what 0:06:56.556 --> 0:07:00.876 we consider humor to be. That that one thing must 0:07:00.916 --> 0:07:03.676 be what it's all about. That even civility goes out 0:07:03.676 --> 0:07:05.996 the window, which is not crazy. Many people say, why 0:07:05.996 --> 0:07:07.636 do these people have to be so mean? But you 0:07:07.636 --> 0:07:10.316 wouldn't ask that if it was about petilia. Nobody thinks 0:07:10.316 --> 0:07:13.156 that we should be very gentle in ejecting a pedophile 0:07:13.236 --> 0:07:16.556 from general society. When I was at in college in 0:07:16.636 --> 0:07:20.356 the eighties, we had sort of there was a PC moment. 0:07:20.436 --> 0:07:22.476 Do you remember this? I was there for that, and 0:07:22.596 --> 0:07:25.356 then it went away, I'm told by people who are 0:07:25.436 --> 0:07:28.036 ten years younger than me, and then it came back 0:07:28.116 --> 0:07:31.676 again in this new woke form. And the question is 0:07:31.716 --> 0:07:34.076 what's the mechanism of that. I almost think the mechanism 0:07:34.236 --> 0:07:37.756 is that the people younger than us pushed back against 0:07:37.796 --> 0:07:40.276 PC because they thought it was stupid, and then the 0:07:40.356 --> 0:07:42.796 people younger than them. You know, I wonder if there's 0:07:42.796 --> 0:07:45.876 almost like a cyclical generational Yeah. I don't know if 0:07:45.916 --> 0:07:48.916 there's some you know, if it's some youth culture thing, 0:07:49.436 --> 0:07:52.156 and that the pendulum will swing and that everybody will say, wait, 0:07:52.236 --> 0:07:53.796 this is nuts, and then it will go back again. 0:07:53.876 --> 0:07:57.996 But nineteen ninety undergraduates were pushing back against the excesses 0:07:57.996 --> 0:08:01.196 of PC. Then everything was quiet. Woke is exactly what 0:08:01.396 --> 0:08:04.116 PC was back in the eighties. It's the same. It's 0:08:04.156 --> 0:08:06.276 the same alignment. And you know, to tell you the truth, 0:08:06.316 --> 0:08:09.556 I'm often asked, how do you work on a college campus? 0:08:09.916 --> 0:08:12.116 And I generally say that, frankly, I get the feeling 0:08:12.236 --> 0:08:15.956 most undergraduates in Morningside Heights see what's wrong here. It's 0:08:15.996 --> 0:08:18.516 just that there's a certain vocal minority that they always 0:08:18.556 --> 0:08:21.916 tell me they're scared blankless of. And so yeah, I 0:08:21.996 --> 0:08:25.356 think that there's already that pushback, just as an asside. 0:08:25.836 --> 0:08:28.596 I taught a class at Johns Hopkins last fall and 0:08:28.796 --> 0:08:31.756 I assigned them a book by Milan Kundera, who the 0:08:31.956 --> 0:08:37.196 check writer, yeah who. On rereading, I found was unbelievably sexist. 0:08:37.276 --> 0:08:38.876 I mean that's just how he writes. You know. It's 0:08:38.916 --> 0:08:42.076 all about men sleeping with lots of women. It's on right. 0:08:42.156 --> 0:08:44.796 And I, having assigned this book and having reread it 0:08:44.876 --> 0:08:47.036 in advance of the class, I suddenly worried, oh my god, 0:08:47.076 --> 0:08:49.636 I've just given this book to, you know, a bunch 0:08:49.676 --> 0:08:52.596 of twenty year olds. You know what if they're all 0:08:52.636 --> 0:08:54.716 really angry? And I said the first thing I said 0:08:54.756 --> 0:08:56.676 in the classroom the next day, it was, was anybody 0:08:56.756 --> 0:08:58.356 bothered by this book? And they looked at me like 0:08:58.396 --> 0:09:01.396 I was nuts. They were like, no, you know, just 0:09:01.556 --> 0:09:05.596 a you know check novelist. Right, I've done that. You know, 0:09:05.756 --> 0:09:08.996 I will play something on YouTube or assign some paths 0:09:09.316 --> 0:09:12.396 for some reason. And before anybody was calling it trigger warning, 0:09:12.436 --> 0:09:14.436 I would just say to the class, this was written 0:09:14.436 --> 0:09:16.916 a long time ago. There certain kind of language, there, 0:09:16.916 --> 0:09:20.076 certain assumptions, Um, I know you understand that I'm not 0:09:20.156 --> 0:09:22.436 assigning because of that. It's because it shows something else. 0:09:22.876 --> 0:09:24.836 And most of the class nods, and if I know 0:09:25.596 --> 0:09:28.316 of two or three of them being in their actual 0:09:28.476 --> 0:09:31.756 lives the sort of Wokester types, they don't bring it 0:09:31.836 --> 0:09:35.196 to class. So even in that setting, they don't say anything, 0:09:35.276 --> 0:09:37.356 partly because I guess I'm a figure of authority, but 0:09:37.756 --> 0:09:40.556 partly because they know they're outnumbered. And so it seems 0:09:40.596 --> 0:09:45.876 that we're dealing with a minority group with disproportionate influence. 0:09:46.476 --> 0:09:49.836 And isn't part of their disproportionate influence also just to 0:09:49.916 --> 0:09:53.476 do with social media, I mean, because they can broadcast 0:09:53.756 --> 0:09:55.556 you know what, you know, they can they can reach 0:09:55.716 --> 0:10:01.396 huge audiences with Twitter and video clips and um, you 0:10:01.436 --> 0:10:03.516 know and so on, and that that gives them a 0:10:03.636 --> 0:10:06.396 kind of power that they would never have had before. Yeah, 0:10:06.556 --> 0:10:09.476 I think twenty twelve is when that crests, and that's 0:10:09.476 --> 0:10:11.396 why we're where we are today. If there were no 0:10:11.476 --> 0:10:13.996 such thing as this thing called Twitter, as handy as 0:10:14.036 --> 0:10:16.956 it can be, this wouldn't have happened. We're too connected. 0:10:17.156 --> 0:10:20.476 But we can't reverse that. So what do we do 0:10:20.556 --> 0:10:23.356 about it? We have, as you say, people who are 0:10:23.476 --> 0:10:25.996 now afraid of being called out, people who are maybe 0:10:26.076 --> 0:10:31.396 just defiably afraid of being attacked on social media. Senior people, professors, 0:10:31.876 --> 0:10:35.596 editors of newspapers have all become wary about how they 0:10:35.676 --> 0:10:39.796 speak because they're afraid of name calling. What's the solution. 0:10:40.556 --> 0:10:43.836 It has to start slowly. It can't be everybody who 0:10:43.876 --> 0:10:47.516 stands up to this woke mob as it's often called, 0:10:47.956 --> 0:10:49.676 because for some people it really is a matter of 0:10:49.796 --> 0:10:53.036 job security. It would interfere with their livelihoods. But they're 0:10:53.036 --> 0:10:57.636 cases that are hazier. If you're sitting on a school board, 0:10:58.196 --> 0:11:02.196 if you are a writer and you look and see 0:11:02.196 --> 0:11:05.756 what people are saying about you on Twitter, if you 0:11:06.196 --> 0:11:10.556 are just a person in your neighborhood having a conversation 0:11:10.676 --> 0:11:13.636 with other people like you on a play date or 0:11:13.716 --> 0:11:15.756 the like, it's gone to the point where we need 0:11:15.836 --> 0:11:18.916 to consider that the sky won't always fall in if 0:11:18.996 --> 0:11:22.316 somebody calls you a certain name. We have to think 0:11:22.356 --> 0:11:23.956 of the kind of person who's ready to call you 0:11:24.036 --> 0:11:26.956 a really dirty name on the basis of something that 0:11:27.076 --> 0:11:30.876 doesn't merit that approach as a shark. And I hear 0:11:31.436 --> 0:11:34.876 that with sharks, one way that you can make them 0:11:34.996 --> 0:11:37.596 leave you alone is to bop them on the nose. Now, 0:11:37.676 --> 0:11:39.916 I am not remotely saying that anybody should be punched 0:11:39.956 --> 0:11:42.516 in the nose or bopped or physically abused in any way, 0:11:42.836 --> 0:11:45.916 but metaphorically, these people need to be seen as the 0:11:45.996 --> 0:11:47.716 kinds where they'll say, well, now I guess you're just 0:11:47.836 --> 0:11:51.756 a racist, Well that's really problematic, you're a sexist when 0:11:51.796 --> 0:11:54.036 the charge is clearly not deserved and you can tell 0:11:54.076 --> 0:11:57.276 everybody around you agrees. And people need to be able 0:11:57.316 --> 0:12:01.156 to start saying I disagree with you on these issues, 0:12:01.196 --> 0:12:03.196 but I don't think it makes me a racist, and 0:12:03.316 --> 0:12:05.756 I'm not going to back down, and the person will 0:12:05.876 --> 0:12:08.716 yell louder. I frankly have been dealing with this kind 0:12:08.716 --> 0:12:10.556 of person for the past twenty five years, so I 0:12:10.676 --> 0:12:13.636 know this from experience. The person will yell louder and 0:12:13.756 --> 0:12:16.276 then you just say sorry. And what it would do 0:12:16.396 --> 0:12:19.036 is not eliminate a kind of point of view. I 0:12:19.276 --> 0:12:21.436 don't think we should try to eliminate the woosters anymore 0:12:21.476 --> 0:12:23.636 than they should be trying to eliminate us. But the 0:12:23.756 --> 0:12:27.076 ideas for them to sit back down with the rest 0:12:27.116 --> 0:12:28.596 of us, and the only way to do that is 0:12:28.636 --> 0:12:32.436 to metaphorically, metaphorically bought them on the nose like a shark. 0:12:33.636 --> 0:12:36.356 So how do we set the limits of you know, 0:12:36.636 --> 0:12:40.636 what is acceptable and unacceptable? We talk a lot about 0:12:40.676 --> 0:12:43.036 free speech and the free press, but in fact, there 0:12:43.116 --> 0:12:45.836 have always been certain kinds of topics and subjects and 0:12:45.956 --> 0:12:47.756 certain kinds of speech that have been out of bounds, 0:12:47.796 --> 0:12:52.596 whether it's shouting fire in a crowded theater or you know, 0:12:52.836 --> 0:12:56.036 or screaming hateful things at a mob. You know. So 0:12:56.156 --> 0:12:59.556 there have always been outer limits. Yeah, but who decides 0:12:59.596 --> 0:13:02.076 what those outer limits are? And how can we come 0:13:02.156 --> 0:13:06.956 to a broader agreement, if only within universities, about about 0:13:06.996 --> 0:13:09.516 where those lie? You know? And I can't answer that 0:13:09.716 --> 0:13:14.436 because we haven't had an honest grappling with this yet. 0:13:14.556 --> 0:13:18.836 Where a critical mass of people resist the stalinist extremes. 0:13:19.356 --> 0:13:22.836 I would like to see what sort of middle ground 0:13:23.316 --> 0:13:25.916 we find. And I don't know if I can put 0:13:25.956 --> 0:13:28.436 a label to it, but I think the idea. Unfortunately 0:13:28.516 --> 0:13:31.036 people love to call me conservative. I guess this is conservative. 0:13:31.196 --> 0:13:33.116 We need to go back to where things like this 0:13:33.316 --> 0:13:37.276 were in roughly two thousand seven or eight, which is that, yes, 0:13:37.636 --> 0:13:40.836 we're going to think of racism as societal as well 0:13:41.076 --> 0:13:45.956 as attitudinal, and yes we want to make change. Nevertheless, 0:13:46.036 --> 0:13:49.796 the idea can't be something rather obsessive and based more 0:13:49.916 --> 0:13:55.316 on reforming personal psychology and on society itself, etc. Where 0:13:55.436 --> 0:13:58.556 you draw the line, people will vary as society has 0:13:58.596 --> 0:14:02.276 to settle gradually upon that. In the Burkeyan sense, I 0:14:02.316 --> 0:14:04.756 would say in this case that a pendulum has gone 0:14:04.796 --> 0:14:06.836 too far? Would we want to go back to nineteen 0:14:06.916 --> 0:14:11.316 thirty five? Goodness gracious no, But what's happening now where 0:14:11.396 --> 0:14:13.796 we're about to be in say twenty twenty five. If 0:14:13.836 --> 0:14:16.476 we don't put a check on this is a pendulum 0:14:16.756 --> 0:14:19.276 in the other direction, it's a new kind of repression. 0:14:19.556 --> 0:14:24.156 So John, what is step one? You know how we 0:14:24.276 --> 0:14:27.636 can stop, as you say, this pendulum from swinging too far. 0:14:28.596 --> 0:14:31.316 Do you have to be confronted or can you be 0:14:31.476 --> 0:14:34.836 proactive well with the way things are today, you don't 0:14:34.876 --> 0:14:37.236 have to wait. This has become a major part of 0:14:37.276 --> 0:14:39.756 the warp and woof of a great deal of American society, 0:14:39.876 --> 0:14:43.716 especially since last spring. I would just say, and I'm 0:14:43.756 --> 0:14:49.956 basing this on the depressing and massive amount of feedback 0:14:50.036 --> 0:14:52.956 that people like me and my aspiring colleague Glenn Lowrie 0:14:53.036 --> 0:14:56.796 get from aggrieved people of all colors all over this country, 0:14:56.836 --> 0:14:59.356 not to mention in Canada and often for some reason, 0:14:59.476 --> 0:15:04.476 in Germany and Scandinavia. This is now a problem that 0:15:04.596 --> 0:15:07.596 spreads even beyond these shores. And if you are the 0:15:07.676 --> 0:15:10.276 kind of person where this is rearing its ugly head 0:15:10.276 --> 0:15:14.116 in your workplace or on the co op of your apartment, 0:15:14.716 --> 0:15:17.836 or in some organization that you serve in, or frankly, 0:15:17.916 --> 0:15:20.636 even your relatives, try it out. Some of you will 0:15:20.636 --> 0:15:22.836 be more up for it than others. I understand. Not 0:15:22.996 --> 0:15:26.596 everybody is into conflict, not everybody is into being yelled back, 0:15:26.756 --> 0:15:30.316 So sorry to interrupt. Try it out. I means saying no, 0:15:30.516 --> 0:15:32.796 I'm not a racist and I disagree with you. Is 0:15:32.836 --> 0:15:35.276 it just that simple? Yeah, just say no, I'm not 0:15:35.356 --> 0:15:37.476 a racist and I disagree with you and treat it 0:15:37.916 --> 0:15:40.316 the way many people treat trying to talk about religion, 0:15:40.516 --> 0:15:43.196 that the conversation has to end there, just like you 0:15:43.316 --> 0:15:45.956 cannot teach a person not to have faith in Jesus. 0:15:46.236 --> 0:15:48.276 That's going to be one out of fifty thousand people 0:15:48.316 --> 0:15:49.716 that you're going to convince of that if that's what 0:15:49.836 --> 0:15:53.076 you were trying to convince somebody of. You can't usually 0:15:53.196 --> 0:15:55.196 teach somebody out of this frame of mind. But you 0:15:55.276 --> 0:15:57.396 have to reach a point where you say, not only 0:15:57.476 --> 0:15:59.356 I don't want to talk about it, because then what 0:15:59.516 --> 0:16:03.076 that person learns is that you are not awake and 0:16:03.436 --> 0:16:05.756 you haven't done the work, and that they have further 0:16:05.836 --> 0:16:08.156 work to do to change. You tell them, no, I'm 0:16:08.236 --> 0:16:10.636 not a racist. I know we're not going to agree, however, 0:16:11.036 --> 0:16:13.596 and so I'm afraid this is over. And they'll say, 0:16:13.916 --> 0:16:17.156 but you about patriarch, Yeah, complicit, and just say no, 0:16:18.036 --> 0:16:20.316 I don't agree that I'm a racist and I'm not 0:16:20.436 --> 0:16:24.156 going to Your solution is actually just like I mean, 0:16:24.196 --> 0:16:26.676 it's almost like not even that there's no way to 0:16:26.756 --> 0:16:28.916 make it sound sophisticated, but I know what I mean. 0:16:28.996 --> 0:16:30.796 It's not like it's not like we need like this 0:16:30.916 --> 0:16:35.156 special kind of electricity infrastructure in this village. Right, yeah, 0:16:36.236 --> 0:16:38.396 we need like village levels. You know, there was all 0:16:38.436 --> 0:16:40.636 these like complications. This one doesn't have that kind of 0:16:40.716 --> 0:16:43.236 ted talk answer, but I think that it really is 0:16:43.276 --> 0:16:46.916 a matter of a kind of consciousness raising. Hopefully we'll see. 0:16:47.516 --> 0:16:51.196 What would you say to people listening who want to know, Um, 0:16:51.516 --> 0:16:54.156 you know, what can I do? What are three things 0:16:54.676 --> 0:16:57.556 that I can do to make this better without making 0:16:57.636 --> 0:17:01.916 the situation angrier or or more contentious? Why not just 0:17:02.036 --> 0:17:06.516 go out and do real work, like grassroots activism and 0:17:06.796 --> 0:17:09.756 getting out the vote and really thinking about houses works. 0:17:09.916 --> 0:17:12.956 How society works is not whether or not you fully 0:17:13.076 --> 0:17:15.836 understand the black condition. By the time you do, you're 0:17:15.876 --> 0:17:18.596 going to die. So that's something that I would also 0:17:18.756 --> 0:17:21.036 ask people to consider. Look at some black people. Just 0:17:21.236 --> 0:17:25.116 look and listen. Remember that we're talking about real human beings, 0:17:25.276 --> 0:17:29.516 not the idealization of this punitive, zen like structure that 0:17:29.596 --> 0:17:38.116 we were being taught is the new big thing. John 0:17:38.196 --> 0:17:42.236 mcwarter is a linguistics professor at Columbia University. A contributing 0:17:42.316 --> 0:17:46.316 writer at the Atlantic. He hosts the podcast Lexicon Valley. 0:17:46.596 --> 0:17:49.076 You should check it out and remember to check out 0:17:49.116 --> 0:17:52.076 our show notes for lengths and suggestions about how you 0:17:52.156 --> 0:17:56.356 can get involved. Solvable is brought to you by Pushkin Industries. 0:17:56.796 --> 0:18:01.076 Our show is produced by Camille Baptista, Senior producer Jocelyn Frame. 0:18:01.676 --> 0:18:05.476 Catherine Girdoe is our managing producer, and our executive producer 0:18:05.596 --> 0:18:09.636 is Mia Loebell. Special thanks go to Heather Fane, Eric Sandler, 0:18:09.796 --> 0:18:13.516 Harley Migliori and Kedjia Holland. I'm Jacob Weisberg.