1 00:00:15,076 --> 00:00:26,076 Speaker 1: Pushkin, this is solvable. I'm Jacob Weisberg. America is being 2 00:00:26,196 --> 00:00:30,436 Speaker 1: called out. There's a reckoning taking place, and at times 3 00:00:30,476 --> 00:00:34,236 Speaker 1: a quite confrontational push to face up to our country's 4 00:00:34,356 --> 00:00:39,876 Speaker 1: racist roots. One hundred and fifty demonstrators just gathered and 5 00:00:39,996 --> 00:00:44,796 Speaker 1: they have just torn down the statue of Christopher Columbus. Yesterday, 6 00:00:44,836 --> 00:00:47,276 Speaker 1: Cult announced that she would not make a planned appearance 7 00:00:47,316 --> 00:00:49,836 Speaker 1: at University of California, Berkeley. People are talking a lot 8 00:00:49,876 --> 00:00:52,676 Speaker 1: about what happened after a dinner date between the comedian 9 00:00:52,756 --> 00:00:54,756 Speaker 1: as He's I'm Sorry and a young woman going by 10 00:00:54,756 --> 00:00:58,596 Speaker 1: the name of Grace. In America's streets, across our university 11 00:00:58,636 --> 00:01:02,356 Speaker 1: campuses and every day on social media, people are battling 12 00:01:02,396 --> 00:01:05,916 Speaker 1: about what should be done to address racism, sexism, and 13 00:01:06,036 --> 00:01:11,476 Speaker 1: other forms of historically embedded prejudice and justice. Battling power 14 00:01:11,636 --> 00:01:18,156 Speaker 1: differentials that disadvantage people is the central goal of basically 15 00:01:18,156 --> 00:01:21,476 Speaker 1: being any kind of moral actor in society. As justified 16 00:01:21,476 --> 00:01:24,916 Speaker 1: as this outrage is, it comes in places with its 17 00:01:24,916 --> 00:01:30,196 Speaker 1: own intolerant edge, demands to conform rather than debate, to suppress, 18 00:01:30,276 --> 00:01:34,156 Speaker 1: and punish rather than engage. In other words, cancel culture 19 00:01:34,236 --> 00:01:36,196 Speaker 1: is a real thing. Many people say why do these 20 00:01:36,196 --> 00:01:38,156 Speaker 1: people have to be so mean? But you wouldn't ask 21 00:01:38,156 --> 00:01:40,436 Speaker 1: that if it was about pedophilia. Nobody thinks that we 22 00:01:40,436 --> 00:01:44,316 Speaker 1: should be very gentle in ejecting a pedophile from general society, 23 00:01:44,596 --> 00:01:47,876 Speaker 1: but as firing someone always the right fix to shutting 24 00:01:47,876 --> 00:01:51,796 Speaker 1: down debate equal progress. Has cancelation become a form of 25 00:01:51,876 --> 00:01:56,996 Speaker 1: left wing McCarthyism. We haven't had an honest grappling with 26 00:01:57,036 --> 00:02:00,316 Speaker 1: this yet, where a critical mass of people resist the 27 00:02:00,356 --> 00:02:04,796 Speaker 1: stalinist extremes. John mcwarter is a professor of linguistics in 28 00:02:04,876 --> 00:02:08,516 Speaker 1: American history at Columbia University. He spends a lot of 29 00:02:08,556 --> 00:02:11,196 Speaker 1: his time thinking about how we choose and use words, 30 00:02:11,716 --> 00:02:17,316 Speaker 1: and he believes cancel culture is solvable. My co host 31 00:02:17,316 --> 00:02:20,596 Speaker 1: Anna Applebaum talked with Nick Warder about how a linguist 32 00:02:20,596 --> 00:02:23,836 Speaker 1: looks at the battles around free speech and how those 33 00:02:23,916 --> 00:02:27,516 Speaker 1: unfairly caught in the crosshairs can respond to name calling 34 00:02:27,636 --> 00:02:32,156 Speaker 1: without engaging in shouting matches. Here's their conversation. It's some 35 00:02:32,316 --> 00:02:36,836 Speaker 1: level cancel culture is. These are arguments about language, what 36 00:02:36,996 --> 00:02:41,236 Speaker 1: you are and aren't allowed to say, how things are pronounced. 37 00:02:42,356 --> 00:02:44,876 Speaker 1: How did you first fall in love with the quirks 38 00:02:44,916 --> 00:02:48,876 Speaker 1: and hiccups of language. What drew you to this field. 39 00:02:50,116 --> 00:02:52,956 Speaker 1: I'm a linguist, not for the reasons that I think 40 00:02:52,996 --> 00:02:55,676 Speaker 1: many people might expect. It's not that I was especially 41 00:02:55,676 --> 00:02:58,236 Speaker 1: well traveled as a child. Both of my parents spoke 42 00:02:58,276 --> 00:03:01,956 Speaker 1: only English. But if I hear somebody speaking something other 43 00:03:02,036 --> 00:03:06,036 Speaker 1: than English, I have this visceral desire to want to 44 00:03:06,076 --> 00:03:08,676 Speaker 1: do it too, Like I'd like to understand what they're saying, 45 00:03:08,676 --> 00:03:10,276 Speaker 1: but also I want to be able to do that. 46 00:03:10,396 --> 00:03:13,276 Speaker 1: The first time I heard anybody speaking something other than English, 47 00:03:13,276 --> 00:03:16,356 Speaker 1: who was Hebrew? Actually, I found myself thinking, I am 48 00:03:16,396 --> 00:03:18,396 Speaker 1: so jealous of that girl that she can talk in 49 00:03:18,436 --> 00:03:21,316 Speaker 1: that way that I can't understand. For me. Originally, it 50 00:03:21,476 --> 00:03:24,076 Speaker 1: was just that they're these seven thousand different codes, and 51 00:03:24,116 --> 00:03:26,796 Speaker 1: I don't want to know only one, so I also 52 00:03:26,876 --> 00:03:31,516 Speaker 1: speak several languages. Tell me what you think about English. 53 00:03:31,556 --> 00:03:33,836 Speaker 1: What does it do well and what does it do poorly? 54 00:03:34,156 --> 00:03:36,396 Speaker 1: Do we debate a certain way in English? I think 55 00:03:36,396 --> 00:03:38,316 Speaker 1: we do, actually, but I'd love to know what you think. 56 00:03:38,716 --> 00:03:42,236 Speaker 1: We're an oddly unfussy language about all sorts of things 57 00:03:42,236 --> 00:03:45,916 Speaker 1: that other languages make you mark and pay attention to. 58 00:03:46,236 --> 00:03:49,636 Speaker 1: Because we're a language of the long written history. We 59 00:03:49,756 --> 00:03:54,116 Speaker 1: have a kind of artificially preserved, enormous vocabulary, and that's 60 00:03:54,156 --> 00:03:56,156 Speaker 1: true of any language with a long written history, but 61 00:03:56,196 --> 00:03:58,476 Speaker 1: English is one of them, and it means that you 62 00:03:58,596 --> 00:04:03,436 Speaker 1: have unnecessarily large collections of synonyms that allow you to 63 00:04:03,476 --> 00:04:09,436 Speaker 1: express yourself in various ways. I find English to be funny. 64 00:04:09,476 --> 00:04:11,396 Speaker 1: People who are into the speeches of Winston Churchill, et 65 00:04:11,396 --> 00:04:14,076 Speaker 1: cetera think I'm crazy, But I find English crude. You know, 66 00:04:14,196 --> 00:04:18,076 Speaker 1: it's it's fascinatingly streamlined. But it's other languages where I 67 00:04:18,076 --> 00:04:22,036 Speaker 1: find myself just drowning in the subtleties and the things 68 00:04:22,036 --> 00:04:23,516 Speaker 1: that they have to say that we have to leave 69 00:04:23,556 --> 00:04:26,276 Speaker 1: the context. Yeah, I actually wonder if that isn't run 70 00:04:26,276 --> 00:04:28,956 Speaker 1: of the reasons why English is the universal language, because 71 00:04:28,956 --> 00:04:32,556 Speaker 1: in fact, it's pretty easy to speak bad English. It 72 00:04:32,156 --> 00:04:35,396 Speaker 1: doesn't acquire a lot of grammatical knowledge. It's it has 73 00:04:35,436 --> 00:04:38,396 Speaker 1: that symposim You can speak it badly quite easily, which 74 00:04:38,436 --> 00:04:41,996 Speaker 1: is not true of actually most language. Yes, exactly. You know, 75 00:04:42,076 --> 00:04:44,676 Speaker 1: as a linguistic professor, do you know how do you 76 00:04:44,756 --> 00:04:47,676 Speaker 1: navigate sensitive language debates? Is there a different way to 77 00:04:47,716 --> 00:04:50,116 Speaker 1: do it? There are certain things that you're taught, you 78 00:04:50,156 --> 00:04:53,996 Speaker 1: are not supposed to say in our society. I'm just 79 00:04:54,156 --> 00:04:57,196 Speaker 1: somebody who one. I like to keep things tidy, I 80 00:04:57,316 --> 00:04:58,916 Speaker 1: like to make a case. I think, really I should 81 00:04:58,956 --> 00:05:00,796 Speaker 1: have been a lawyer. I don't know if I would 82 00:05:00,796 --> 00:05:02,356 Speaker 1: have been a good one, but that's the kind of 83 00:05:02,396 --> 00:05:05,556 Speaker 1: mine that I think I have. And also I want 84 00:05:05,596 --> 00:05:08,356 Speaker 1: to find stuff out. And I watch other people being 85 00:05:08,396 --> 00:05:10,716 Speaker 1: told that they're not a allowed to and it certainly 86 00:05:10,716 --> 00:05:12,876 Speaker 1: happened to me two or three times in my own 87 00:05:12,916 --> 00:05:15,436 Speaker 1: academic career, and I don't think it's right. And I 88 00:05:15,436 --> 00:05:17,436 Speaker 1: have a hard time keeping quiet when I don't think 89 00:05:17,476 --> 00:05:20,276 Speaker 1: something is right. One person said about me once that 90 00:05:20,356 --> 00:05:23,316 Speaker 1: when John gets mad, he writes a book, and that's 91 00:05:23,876 --> 00:05:26,356 Speaker 1: more or less true. I just can't help it. I 92 00:05:26,396 --> 00:05:29,116 Speaker 1: want things to be better than they are, and I'm cranky. 93 00:05:30,036 --> 00:05:32,836 Speaker 1: What do you think of the term cancel culture? What 94 00:05:32,916 --> 00:05:35,716 Speaker 1: do you think it now means? Well, we're already getting 95 00:05:35,876 --> 00:05:37,996 Speaker 1: beyond it in a way, or at least I hope 96 00:05:38,036 --> 00:05:41,076 Speaker 1: we can. Because originally the idea was that if and 97 00:05:41,116 --> 00:05:43,676 Speaker 1: originally by that I mean say two years ago, the 98 00:05:43,716 --> 00:05:47,076 Speaker 1: idea was that if we find out something unsavory and 99 00:05:47,156 --> 00:05:51,236 Speaker 1: often genuinely unsavory about some celebrity that we're supposed to 100 00:05:51,276 --> 00:05:53,836 Speaker 1: flush them from our consciousness as much as possible, And 101 00:05:53,876 --> 00:05:57,556 Speaker 1: so that has become more extreme lately, is accepted by 102 00:05:57,676 --> 00:06:01,196 Speaker 1: a larger number of people. And I think it's I 103 00:06:01,236 --> 00:06:05,476 Speaker 1: could say dangerous, but it's also just really unfair, it's immoral, 104 00:06:05,796 --> 00:06:08,996 Speaker 1: and yet I think most of us are inclined to 105 00:06:09,196 --> 00:06:12,396 Speaker 1: pretend to go along with it because we're really frightened 106 00:06:12,396 --> 00:06:14,996 Speaker 1: of a certain weapon that that crowd have, which is 107 00:06:14,996 --> 00:06:16,916 Speaker 1: that they can call you a racist or a sexist. 108 00:06:17,196 --> 00:06:20,476 Speaker 1: That's something that we need to renegotiate. And where is 109 00:06:20,516 --> 00:06:23,716 Speaker 1: the desire to cancel people coming from? And you said 110 00:06:23,756 --> 00:06:27,276 Speaker 1: that crowd or those people, who are they and what's 111 00:06:27,316 --> 00:06:29,916 Speaker 1: their motive? Do you think this is what it is? 112 00:06:30,516 --> 00:06:35,076 Speaker 1: Critical race theory? What it is is people who have 113 00:06:36,036 --> 00:06:41,916 Speaker 1: drunk in an idea that battling power differentials that disadvantage 114 00:06:41,956 --> 00:06:46,676 Speaker 1: people is the central goal of basically being any kind 115 00:06:46,716 --> 00:06:49,396 Speaker 1: of moral actor in society, and that it must center 116 00:06:49,756 --> 00:06:52,916 Speaker 1: what we consider intellectual inquiry to be. It must center 117 00:06:53,276 --> 00:06:56,516 Speaker 1: what we consider art to be, It must center what 118 00:06:56,556 --> 00:07:00,876 Speaker 1: we consider humor to be. That that one thing must 119 00:07:00,916 --> 00:07:03,676 Speaker 1: be what it's all about. That even civility goes out 120 00:07:03,676 --> 00:07:05,996 Speaker 1: the window, which is not crazy. Many people say, why 121 00:07:05,996 --> 00:07:07,636 Speaker 1: do these people have to be so mean? But you 122 00:07:07,636 --> 00:07:10,316 Speaker 1: wouldn't ask that if it was about petilia. Nobody thinks 123 00:07:10,316 --> 00:07:13,156 Speaker 1: that we should be very gentle in ejecting a pedophile 124 00:07:13,236 --> 00:07:16,556 Speaker 1: from general society. When I was at in college in 125 00:07:16,636 --> 00:07:20,356 Speaker 1: the eighties, we had sort of there was a PC moment. 126 00:07:20,436 --> 00:07:22,476 Speaker 1: Do you remember this? I was there for that, and 127 00:07:22,596 --> 00:07:25,356 Speaker 1: then it went away, I'm told by people who are 128 00:07:25,436 --> 00:07:28,036 Speaker 1: ten years younger than me, and then it came back 129 00:07:28,116 --> 00:07:31,676 Speaker 1: again in this new woke form. And the question is 130 00:07:31,716 --> 00:07:34,076 Speaker 1: what's the mechanism of that. I almost think the mechanism 131 00:07:34,236 --> 00:07:37,756 Speaker 1: is that the people younger than us pushed back against 132 00:07:37,796 --> 00:07:40,276 Speaker 1: PC because they thought it was stupid, and then the 133 00:07:40,356 --> 00:07:42,796 Speaker 1: people younger than them. You know, I wonder if there's 134 00:07:42,796 --> 00:07:45,876 Speaker 1: almost like a cyclical generational Yeah. I don't know if 135 00:07:45,916 --> 00:07:48,916 Speaker 1: there's some you know, if it's some youth culture thing, 136 00:07:49,436 --> 00:07:52,156 Speaker 1: and that the pendulum will swing and that everybody will say, wait, 137 00:07:52,236 --> 00:07:53,796 Speaker 1: this is nuts, and then it will go back again. 138 00:07:53,876 --> 00:07:57,996 Speaker 1: But nineteen ninety undergraduates were pushing back against the excesses 139 00:07:57,996 --> 00:08:01,196 Speaker 1: of PC. Then everything was quiet. Woke is exactly what 140 00:08:01,396 --> 00:08:04,116 Speaker 1: PC was back in the eighties. It's the same. It's 141 00:08:04,156 --> 00:08:06,276 Speaker 1: the same alignment. And you know, to tell you the truth, 142 00:08:06,316 --> 00:08:09,556 Speaker 1: I'm often asked, how do you work on a college campus? 143 00:08:09,916 --> 00:08:12,116 Speaker 1: And I generally say that, frankly, I get the feeling 144 00:08:12,236 --> 00:08:15,956 Speaker 1: most undergraduates in Morningside Heights see what's wrong here. It's 145 00:08:15,996 --> 00:08:18,516 Speaker 1: just that there's a certain vocal minority that they always 146 00:08:18,556 --> 00:08:21,916 Speaker 1: tell me they're scared blankless of. And so yeah, I 147 00:08:21,996 --> 00:08:25,356 Speaker 1: think that there's already that pushback, just as an asside. 148 00:08:25,836 --> 00:08:28,596 Speaker 1: I taught a class at Johns Hopkins last fall and 149 00:08:28,796 --> 00:08:31,756 Speaker 1: I assigned them a book by Milan Kundera, who the 150 00:08:31,956 --> 00:08:37,196 Speaker 1: check writer, yeah who. On rereading, I found was unbelievably sexist. 151 00:08:37,276 --> 00:08:38,876 Speaker 1: I mean that's just how he writes. You know. It's 152 00:08:38,916 --> 00:08:42,076 Speaker 1: all about men sleeping with lots of women. It's on right. 153 00:08:42,156 --> 00:08:44,796 Speaker 1: And I, having assigned this book and having reread it 154 00:08:44,876 --> 00:08:47,036 Speaker 1: in advance of the class, I suddenly worried, oh my god, 155 00:08:47,076 --> 00:08:49,636 Speaker 1: I've just given this book to, you know, a bunch 156 00:08:49,676 --> 00:08:52,596 Speaker 1: of twenty year olds. You know what if they're all 157 00:08:52,636 --> 00:08:54,716 Speaker 1: really angry? And I said the first thing I said 158 00:08:54,756 --> 00:08:56,676 Speaker 1: in the classroom the next day, it was, was anybody 159 00:08:56,756 --> 00:08:58,356 Speaker 1: bothered by this book? And they looked at me like 160 00:08:58,396 --> 00:09:01,396 Speaker 1: I was nuts. They were like, no, you know, just 161 00:09:01,556 --> 00:09:05,596 Speaker 1: a you know check novelist. Right, I've done that. You know, 162 00:09:05,756 --> 00:09:08,996 Speaker 1: I will play something on YouTube or assign some paths 163 00:09:09,316 --> 00:09:12,396 Speaker 1: for some reason. And before anybody was calling it trigger warning, 164 00:09:12,436 --> 00:09:14,436 Speaker 1: I would just say to the class, this was written 165 00:09:14,436 --> 00:09:16,916 Speaker 1: a long time ago. There certain kind of language, there, 166 00:09:16,916 --> 00:09:20,076 Speaker 1: certain assumptions, Um, I know you understand that I'm not 167 00:09:20,156 --> 00:09:22,436 Speaker 1: assigning because of that. It's because it shows something else. 168 00:09:22,876 --> 00:09:24,836 Speaker 1: And most of the class nods, and if I know 169 00:09:25,596 --> 00:09:28,316 Speaker 1: of two or three of them being in their actual 170 00:09:28,476 --> 00:09:31,756 Speaker 1: lives the sort of Wokester types, they don't bring it 171 00:09:31,836 --> 00:09:35,196 Speaker 1: to class. So even in that setting, they don't say anything, 172 00:09:35,276 --> 00:09:37,356 Speaker 1: partly because I guess I'm a figure of authority, but 173 00:09:37,756 --> 00:09:40,556 Speaker 1: partly because they know they're outnumbered. And so it seems 174 00:09:40,596 --> 00:09:45,876 Speaker 1: that we're dealing with a minority group with disproportionate influence. 175 00:09:46,476 --> 00:09:49,836 Speaker 1: And isn't part of their disproportionate influence also just to 176 00:09:49,916 --> 00:09:53,476 Speaker 1: do with social media, I mean, because they can broadcast 177 00:09:53,756 --> 00:09:55,556 Speaker 1: you know what, you know, they can they can reach 178 00:09:55,716 --> 00:10:01,396 Speaker 1: huge audiences with Twitter and video clips and um, you 179 00:10:01,436 --> 00:10:03,516 Speaker 1: know and so on, and that that gives them a 180 00:10:03,636 --> 00:10:06,396 Speaker 1: kind of power that they would never have had before. Yeah, 181 00:10:06,556 --> 00:10:09,476 Speaker 1: I think twenty twelve is when that crests, and that's 182 00:10:09,476 --> 00:10:11,396 Speaker 1: why we're where we are today. If there were no 183 00:10:11,476 --> 00:10:13,996 Speaker 1: such thing as this thing called Twitter, as handy as 184 00:10:14,036 --> 00:10:16,956 Speaker 1: it can be, this wouldn't have happened. We're too connected. 185 00:10:17,156 --> 00:10:20,476 Speaker 1: But we can't reverse that. So what do we do 186 00:10:20,556 --> 00:10:23,356 Speaker 1: about it? We have, as you say, people who are 187 00:10:23,476 --> 00:10:25,996 Speaker 1: now afraid of being called out, people who are maybe 188 00:10:26,076 --> 00:10:31,396 Speaker 1: just defiably afraid of being attacked on social media. Senior people, professors, 189 00:10:31,876 --> 00:10:35,596 Speaker 1: editors of newspapers have all become wary about how they 190 00:10:35,676 --> 00:10:39,796 Speaker 1: speak because they're afraid of name calling. What's the solution. 191 00:10:40,556 --> 00:10:43,836 Speaker 1: It has to start slowly. It can't be everybody who 192 00:10:43,876 --> 00:10:47,516 Speaker 1: stands up to this woke mob as it's often called, 193 00:10:47,956 --> 00:10:49,676 Speaker 1: because for some people it really is a matter of 194 00:10:49,796 --> 00:10:53,036 Speaker 1: job security. It would interfere with their livelihoods. But they're 195 00:10:53,036 --> 00:10:57,636 Speaker 1: cases that are hazier. If you're sitting on a school board, 196 00:10:58,196 --> 00:11:02,196 Speaker 1: if you are a writer and you look and see 197 00:11:02,196 --> 00:11:05,756 Speaker 1: what people are saying about you on Twitter, if you 198 00:11:06,196 --> 00:11:10,556 Speaker 1: are just a person in your neighborhood having a conversation 199 00:11:10,676 --> 00:11:13,636 Speaker 1: with other people like you on a play date or 200 00:11:13,716 --> 00:11:15,756 Speaker 1: the like, it's gone to the point where we need 201 00:11:15,836 --> 00:11:18,916 Speaker 1: to consider that the sky won't always fall in if 202 00:11:18,996 --> 00:11:22,316 Speaker 1: somebody calls you a certain name. We have to think 203 00:11:22,356 --> 00:11:23,956 Speaker 1: of the kind of person who's ready to call you 204 00:11:24,036 --> 00:11:26,956 Speaker 1: a really dirty name on the basis of something that 205 00:11:27,076 --> 00:11:30,876 Speaker 1: doesn't merit that approach as a shark. And I hear 206 00:11:31,436 --> 00:11:34,876 Speaker 1: that with sharks, one way that you can make them 207 00:11:34,996 --> 00:11:37,596 Speaker 1: leave you alone is to bop them on the nose. Now, 208 00:11:37,676 --> 00:11:39,916 Speaker 1: I am not remotely saying that anybody should be punched 209 00:11:39,956 --> 00:11:42,516 Speaker 1: in the nose or bopped or physically abused in any way, 210 00:11:42,836 --> 00:11:45,916 Speaker 1: but metaphorically, these people need to be seen as the 211 00:11:45,996 --> 00:11:47,716 Speaker 1: kinds where they'll say, well, now I guess you're just 212 00:11:47,836 --> 00:11:51,756 Speaker 1: a racist, Well that's really problematic, you're a sexist when 213 00:11:51,796 --> 00:11:54,036 Speaker 1: the charge is clearly not deserved and you can tell 214 00:11:54,076 --> 00:11:57,276 Speaker 1: everybody around you agrees. And people need to be able 215 00:11:57,316 --> 00:12:01,156 Speaker 1: to start saying I disagree with you on these issues, 216 00:12:01,196 --> 00:12:03,196 Speaker 1: but I don't think it makes me a racist, and 217 00:12:03,316 --> 00:12:05,756 Speaker 1: I'm not going to back down, and the person will 218 00:12:05,876 --> 00:12:08,716 Speaker 1: yell louder. I frankly have been dealing with this kind 219 00:12:08,716 --> 00:12:10,556 Speaker 1: of person for the past twenty five years, so I 220 00:12:10,676 --> 00:12:13,636 Speaker 1: know this from experience. The person will yell louder and 221 00:12:13,756 --> 00:12:16,276 Speaker 1: then you just say sorry. And what it would do 222 00:12:16,396 --> 00:12:19,036 Speaker 1: is not eliminate a kind of point of view. I 223 00:12:19,276 --> 00:12:21,436 Speaker 1: don't think we should try to eliminate the woosters anymore 224 00:12:21,476 --> 00:12:23,636 Speaker 1: than they should be trying to eliminate us. But the 225 00:12:23,756 --> 00:12:27,076 Speaker 1: ideas for them to sit back down with the rest 226 00:12:27,116 --> 00:12:28,596 Speaker 1: of us, and the only way to do that is 227 00:12:28,636 --> 00:12:32,436 Speaker 1: to metaphorically, metaphorically bought them on the nose like a shark. 228 00:12:33,636 --> 00:12:36,356 Speaker 1: So how do we set the limits of you know, 229 00:12:36,636 --> 00:12:40,636 Speaker 1: what is acceptable and unacceptable? We talk a lot about 230 00:12:40,676 --> 00:12:43,036 Speaker 1: free speech and the free press, but in fact, there 231 00:12:43,116 --> 00:12:45,836 Speaker 1: have always been certain kinds of topics and subjects and 232 00:12:45,956 --> 00:12:47,756 Speaker 1: certain kinds of speech that have been out of bounds, 233 00:12:47,796 --> 00:12:52,596 Speaker 1: whether it's shouting fire in a crowded theater or you know, 234 00:12:52,836 --> 00:12:56,036 Speaker 1: or screaming hateful things at a mob. You know. So 235 00:12:56,156 --> 00:12:59,556 Speaker 1: there have always been outer limits. Yeah, but who decides 236 00:12:59,596 --> 00:13:02,076 Speaker 1: what those outer limits are? And how can we come 237 00:13:02,156 --> 00:13:06,956 Speaker 1: to a broader agreement, if only within universities, about about 238 00:13:06,996 --> 00:13:09,516 Speaker 1: where those lie? You know? And I can't answer that 239 00:13:09,716 --> 00:13:14,436 Speaker 1: because we haven't had an honest grappling with this yet. 240 00:13:14,556 --> 00:13:18,836 Speaker 1: Where a critical mass of people resist the stalinist extremes. 241 00:13:19,356 --> 00:13:22,836 Speaker 1: I would like to see what sort of middle ground 242 00:13:23,316 --> 00:13:25,916 Speaker 1: we find. And I don't know if I can put 243 00:13:25,956 --> 00:13:28,436 Speaker 1: a label to it, but I think the idea. Unfortunately 244 00:13:28,516 --> 00:13:31,036 Speaker 1: people love to call me conservative. I guess this is conservative. 245 00:13:31,196 --> 00:13:33,116 Speaker 1: We need to go back to where things like this 246 00:13:33,316 --> 00:13:37,276 Speaker 1: were in roughly two thousand seven or eight, which is that, yes, 247 00:13:37,636 --> 00:13:40,836 Speaker 1: we're going to think of racism as societal as well 248 00:13:41,076 --> 00:13:45,956 Speaker 1: as attitudinal, and yes we want to make change. Nevertheless, 249 00:13:46,036 --> 00:13:49,796 Speaker 1: the idea can't be something rather obsessive and based more 250 00:13:49,916 --> 00:13:55,316 Speaker 1: on reforming personal psychology and on society itself, etc. Where 251 00:13:55,436 --> 00:13:58,556 Speaker 1: you draw the line, people will vary as society has 252 00:13:58,596 --> 00:14:02,276 Speaker 1: to settle gradually upon that. In the Burkeyan sense, I 253 00:14:02,316 --> 00:14:04,756 Speaker 1: would say in this case that a pendulum has gone 254 00:14:04,796 --> 00:14:06,836 Speaker 1: too far? Would we want to go back to nineteen 255 00:14:06,916 --> 00:14:11,316 Speaker 1: thirty five? Goodness gracious no, But what's happening now where 256 00:14:11,396 --> 00:14:13,796 Speaker 1: we're about to be in say twenty twenty five. If 257 00:14:13,836 --> 00:14:16,476 Speaker 1: we don't put a check on this is a pendulum 258 00:14:16,756 --> 00:14:19,276 Speaker 1: in the other direction, it's a new kind of repression. 259 00:14:19,556 --> 00:14:24,156 Speaker 1: So John, what is step one? You know how we 260 00:14:24,276 --> 00:14:27,636 Speaker 1: can stop, as you say, this pendulum from swinging too far. 261 00:14:28,596 --> 00:14:31,316 Speaker 1: Do you have to be confronted or can you be 262 00:14:31,476 --> 00:14:34,836 Speaker 1: proactive well with the way things are today, you don't 263 00:14:34,876 --> 00:14:37,236 Speaker 1: have to wait. This has become a major part of 264 00:14:37,276 --> 00:14:39,756 Speaker 1: the warp and woof of a great deal of American society, 265 00:14:39,876 --> 00:14:43,716 Speaker 1: especially since last spring. I would just say, and I'm 266 00:14:43,756 --> 00:14:49,956 Speaker 1: basing this on the depressing and massive amount of feedback 267 00:14:50,036 --> 00:14:52,956 Speaker 1: that people like me and my aspiring colleague Glenn Lowrie 268 00:14:53,036 --> 00:14:56,796 Speaker 1: get from aggrieved people of all colors all over this country, 269 00:14:56,836 --> 00:14:59,356 Speaker 1: not to mention in Canada and often for some reason, 270 00:14:59,476 --> 00:15:04,476 Speaker 1: in Germany and Scandinavia. This is now a problem that 271 00:15:04,596 --> 00:15:07,596 Speaker 1: spreads even beyond these shores. And if you are the 272 00:15:07,676 --> 00:15:10,276 Speaker 1: kind of person where this is rearing its ugly head 273 00:15:10,276 --> 00:15:14,116 Speaker 1: in your workplace or on the co op of your apartment, 274 00:15:14,716 --> 00:15:17,836 Speaker 1: or in some organization that you serve in, or frankly, 275 00:15:17,916 --> 00:15:20,636 Speaker 1: even your relatives, try it out. Some of you will 276 00:15:20,636 --> 00:15:22,836 Speaker 1: be more up for it than others. I understand. Not 277 00:15:22,996 --> 00:15:26,596 Speaker 1: everybody is into conflict, not everybody is into being yelled back, 278 00:15:26,756 --> 00:15:30,316 Speaker 1: So sorry to interrupt. Try it out. I means saying no, 279 00:15:30,516 --> 00:15:32,796 Speaker 1: I'm not a racist and I disagree with you. Is 280 00:15:32,836 --> 00:15:35,276 Speaker 1: it just that simple? Yeah, just say no, I'm not 281 00:15:35,356 --> 00:15:37,476 Speaker 1: a racist and I disagree with you and treat it 282 00:15:37,916 --> 00:15:40,316 Speaker 1: the way many people treat trying to talk about religion, 283 00:15:40,516 --> 00:15:43,196 Speaker 1: that the conversation has to end there, just like you 284 00:15:43,316 --> 00:15:45,956 Speaker 1: cannot teach a person not to have faith in Jesus. 285 00:15:46,236 --> 00:15:48,276 Speaker 1: That's going to be one out of fifty thousand people 286 00:15:48,316 --> 00:15:49,716 Speaker 1: that you're going to convince of that if that's what 287 00:15:49,836 --> 00:15:53,076 Speaker 1: you were trying to convince somebody of. You can't usually 288 00:15:53,196 --> 00:15:55,196 Speaker 1: teach somebody out of this frame of mind. But you 289 00:15:55,276 --> 00:15:57,396 Speaker 1: have to reach a point where you say, not only 290 00:15:57,476 --> 00:15:59,356 Speaker 1: I don't want to talk about it, because then what 291 00:15:59,516 --> 00:16:03,076 Speaker 1: that person learns is that you are not awake and 292 00:16:03,436 --> 00:16:05,756 Speaker 1: you haven't done the work, and that they have further 293 00:16:05,836 --> 00:16:08,156 Speaker 1: work to do to change. You tell them, no, I'm 294 00:16:08,236 --> 00:16:10,636 Speaker 1: not a racist. I know we're not going to agree, however, 295 00:16:11,036 --> 00:16:13,596 Speaker 1: and so I'm afraid this is over. And they'll say, 296 00:16:13,916 --> 00:16:17,156 Speaker 1: but you about patriarch, Yeah, complicit, and just say no, 297 00:16:18,036 --> 00:16:20,316 Speaker 1: I don't agree that I'm a racist and I'm not 298 00:16:20,436 --> 00:16:24,156 Speaker 1: going to Your solution is actually just like I mean, 299 00:16:24,196 --> 00:16:26,676 Speaker 1: it's almost like not even that there's no way to 300 00:16:26,756 --> 00:16:28,916 Speaker 1: make it sound sophisticated, but I know what I mean. 301 00:16:28,996 --> 00:16:30,796 Speaker 1: It's not like it's not like we need like this 302 00:16:30,916 --> 00:16:35,156 Speaker 1: special kind of electricity infrastructure in this village. Right, yeah, 303 00:16:36,236 --> 00:16:38,396 Speaker 1: we need like village levels. You know, there was all 304 00:16:38,436 --> 00:16:40,636 Speaker 1: these like complications. This one doesn't have that kind of 305 00:16:40,716 --> 00:16:43,236 Speaker 1: ted talk answer, but I think that it really is 306 00:16:43,276 --> 00:16:46,916 Speaker 1: a matter of a kind of consciousness raising. Hopefully we'll see. 307 00:16:47,516 --> 00:16:51,196 Speaker 1: What would you say to people listening who want to know, Um, 308 00:16:51,516 --> 00:16:54,156 Speaker 1: you know, what can I do? What are three things 309 00:16:54,676 --> 00:16:57,556 Speaker 1: that I can do to make this better without making 310 00:16:57,636 --> 00:17:01,916 Speaker 1: the situation angrier or or more contentious? Why not just 311 00:17:02,036 --> 00:17:06,516 Speaker 1: go out and do real work, like grassroots activism and 312 00:17:06,796 --> 00:17:09,756 Speaker 1: getting out the vote and really thinking about houses works. 313 00:17:09,916 --> 00:17:12,956 Speaker 1: How society works is not whether or not you fully 314 00:17:13,076 --> 00:17:15,836 Speaker 1: understand the black condition. By the time you do, you're 315 00:17:15,876 --> 00:17:18,596 Speaker 1: going to die. So that's something that I would also 316 00:17:18,756 --> 00:17:21,036 Speaker 1: ask people to consider. Look at some black people. Just 317 00:17:21,236 --> 00:17:25,116 Speaker 1: look and listen. Remember that we're talking about real human beings, 318 00:17:25,276 --> 00:17:29,516 Speaker 1: not the idealization of this punitive, zen like structure that 319 00:17:29,596 --> 00:17:38,116 Speaker 1: we were being taught is the new big thing. John 320 00:17:38,196 --> 00:17:42,236 Speaker 1: mcwarter is a linguistics professor at Columbia University. A contributing 321 00:17:42,316 --> 00:17:46,316 Speaker 1: writer at the Atlantic. He hosts the podcast Lexicon Valley. 322 00:17:46,596 --> 00:17:49,076 Speaker 1: You should check it out and remember to check out 323 00:17:49,116 --> 00:17:52,076 Speaker 1: our show notes for lengths and suggestions about how you 324 00:17:52,156 --> 00:17:56,356 Speaker 1: can get involved. Solvable is brought to you by Pushkin Industries. 325 00:17:56,796 --> 00:18:01,076 Speaker 1: Our show is produced by Camille Baptista, Senior producer Jocelyn Frame. 326 00:18:01,676 --> 00:18:05,476 Speaker 1: Catherine Girdoe is our managing producer, and our executive producer 327 00:18:05,596 --> 00:18:09,636 Speaker 1: is Mia Loebell. Special thanks go to Heather Fane, Eric Sandler, 328 00:18:09,796 --> 00:18:13,516 Speaker 1: Harley Migliori and Kedjia Holland. I'm Jacob Weisberg.