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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to stuff

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Speaker 1: I've never told to your production of iHeart Radio. So

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Speaker 1: it is time for another book club. And before we

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Speaker 1: get into this one, UM, quick sugar warning, we're gonna

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Speaker 1: be talking about issues around consent, sexual assault, rape culture. UM,

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Speaker 1: We're not going to go too deeply into any of that.

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Speaker 1: But UM, if you're not in a good place, or

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Speaker 1: you're not you don't want to hear that right now.

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Speaker 1: Here is your warning. Come back later or don't. I'm

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Speaker 1: very excited about this one. We actually I wrote most

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Speaker 1: of this months ago because we're discussing a book that

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Speaker 1: I'm very excited about. And it's called dub Con by

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Speaker 1: activists and independent scholar at Melana Popova, and it was

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Speaker 1: just released in October. UM, and we got that they

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Speaker 1: were like, we know who needs this book. Yes, they

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Speaker 1: targeted you specifically, understanding that they knew who you were. Yes,

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Speaker 1: point blank. Yes. So this is not a sponsored episode,

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Speaker 1: but we did get a free coffee to review and

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Speaker 1: in In this book, it examines the role of power insects,

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Speaker 1: of uneven power dynamics in our society and consent to

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Speaker 1: the lens of fan fiction. How fan fiction can operate

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Speaker 1: as a form of cultural activism. Um. And yes, I

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Speaker 1: bet like a lot of the listeners listening are nodding like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's that's any Yes. I mean if you have been

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Speaker 1: listening for the past six months, you know this is

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Speaker 1: any material. Yes. It's amazing to me how many people

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Speaker 1: that I'll meet, which mostly is happening digitally, um these days,

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Speaker 1: but they'll be like within within days they know the

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Speaker 1: fan fiction is my thing, Like it doesn't think long

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Speaker 1: at all. Yeah. And not because you don't automatically speak

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Speaker 1: about how you need to get back to the house,

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Speaker 1: because be the updated fand fiction you are following. No, No,

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Speaker 1: definitely not one of my favorites. Just finished today and

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Speaker 1: I'm in that weird state of like it was a

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Speaker 1: good ending, but I'm really sad about it. It's one

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Speaker 1: of those yes. Yes, and actually, uh, I was thinking

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Speaker 1: about this. I've been reading fan fiction for almost two

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Speaker 1: decades now, so I have seen a lot of things change,

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Speaker 1: and I'm going to be talking about that throughout because

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Speaker 1: this is kind of like something I feel pretty well

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Speaker 1: versed in and that I can discuss um and that

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Speaker 1: I have thought about a lot and actually for this episode,

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Speaker 1: I talked to two friends about um fan fiction and

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Speaker 1: how we've seen fan fiction change and and what how

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Speaker 1: dub con has changed. But Yes, this book really delves

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Speaker 1: into how fan fiction can address issues of representation and

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Speaker 1: popular media, as well as dominant cultural ideas around things

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Speaker 1: like sex and consent. And yes, hand fiction is a

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Speaker 1: flawed space that can reinforce unhealthy and harmful ideas. It

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Speaker 1: is also a space where we can and it is

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Speaker 1: a tool for social change. It can be used as

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Speaker 1: a tool for social change. Popova specifically uses three popular

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Speaker 1: fan fiction tropes, the Arranged Marriage troope with Marvel, the

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Speaker 1: Omega Verse the Supernatural, and real person fiction with hockey

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Speaker 1: Players to analyze what these tropes say about UM, rape, culture,

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Speaker 1: and consent, particularly when it comes to girls and women

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Speaker 1: and yes, as a reminder, fan fiction is a space

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Speaker 1: that was for the most part created by marginalized folks

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Speaker 1: and is written and read by marginalized folks, a majority

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Speaker 1: of them women, girls, and non binary. Anyway, you can

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Speaker 1: see our past episodes on fan fiction, which we reran

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Speaker 1: kind of recently. We also talked at while I also

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Speaker 1: talked about it in Women Writing Romance episodes. We did

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Speaker 1: on that um, so let's start with some really quick definitions. First,

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Speaker 1: fan fiction is what it sounds like. It is fiction

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Speaker 1: written for pre existing fictional properties. In this context, typically

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Speaker 1: for free UM posted online, where the community aspect is

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Speaker 1: really key. People can review or comment um interact with

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Speaker 1: each other. Most people who read fan fiction are familiar

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Speaker 1: with the fandom, though it's not always necessary to actually

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Speaker 1: find this really really fascinating about people who read like

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Speaker 1: Star Wars fan fiction who don't really watch ab how

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Speaker 1: star Wars at all? And I'm like interesting. Some of

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Speaker 1: the largest fan fiction posting apps and sites are Yes

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Speaker 1: a oh three, Archive of our own fan fiction dot

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Speaker 1: net and what pad. So for this research, Popova relied

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Speaker 1: primarily on AO three, where authors used tags to make

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Speaker 1: their work searchable. And I love the tags. I love them.

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Speaker 1: They're often hilarious, Yes, and she tells us about them often.

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Speaker 1: I know, I love them. I cared up on fan

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Speaker 1: fiction dot net, so AO three, which is now my

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Speaker 1: preferred one. It's sort of a new like, this tagging

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Speaker 1: system is new for me, so I'm just still in

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Speaker 1: that phase where I'm getting a kick out of it,

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Speaker 1: even though it's been years at this point. But I'm

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Speaker 1: still and then new phase about the Okay. So, dub

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Speaker 1: con stands for dubious consent, and this encompasses a wide

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Speaker 1: variety of situations, some of which we're going to get into. UM.

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Speaker 1: Those tropes that we talked about and which there is

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Speaker 1: some are many inherent power dynamics at work. We're consent

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Speaker 1: is questionable at best. UM. One extreme example is the

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Speaker 1: diet trope, which we have discussed before, in which the

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Speaker 1: characters have to have sex or die. The circumstances do

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Speaker 1: not really allow for true consent, as we discussed in

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Speaker 1: our book Club of As, this whole idea has been

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Speaker 1: weaponized when it comes to our legal system and even

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Speaker 1: just not believing women when they say whatever they say.

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Speaker 1: But it's something that we have to talk about. And

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Speaker 1: also some listeners have written about their dislike of the

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Speaker 1: related term non con which stands for non consensual, because

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Speaker 1: people they feel like people should just call it what

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Speaker 1: it is. UM. Others have written in that they said

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Speaker 1: that they appreciate this term because it helps them know

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Speaker 1: what to avoid without getting triggered necessarily. And you can

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Speaker 1: you can use tax to prevent what does show up.

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Speaker 1: So if you're like I don't want anything with this

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Speaker 1: in there. You can use the tagging system to do

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Speaker 1: it that way, but that also does depend on people

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Speaker 1: tagging things correctly, which I I think is one of

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Speaker 1: the most interesting parts of this conversation and something we're

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Speaker 1: going to get into. Also something that I have seen lately.

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Speaker 1: I feel like non con for a long time meant rape,

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Speaker 1: but now non con can be used. People are using

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Speaker 1: it for non consensual touching or like a wide, much

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Speaker 1: bigger range of things than it used to mean, which

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Speaker 1: I find really interesting. MH. So do people avoid putting

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Speaker 1: that in there because they do want people more and

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Speaker 1: more people to read it, or is the fan fiction

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Speaker 1: world pretty consider it. The fan fiction world, in my experience,

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Speaker 1: is very considerate. I know there are outliers. I never

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Speaker 1: want to say that there's not some toxic stuff in there,

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Speaker 1: because there is. But I think, especially lately, the evolution

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Speaker 1: I have seen, especially with non con and dub con, well,

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Speaker 1: especially with dub con, dub con has gone from being

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Speaker 1: kind of romanticized and now it is a very much negative,

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Speaker 1: squeaky thing, and people will hopefully politely are nicely or

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Speaker 1: you know, not rudely or meanly, but they'll tell you, like,

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Speaker 1: you need to tag if you don't have dub con

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Speaker 1: or non con in there and they think you should,

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Speaker 1: people will tell you that you need to put it

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Speaker 1: in there, and um, for the most part, I feel

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Speaker 1: like in again in my experience, which I am in

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Speaker 1: a very like narrow bubble I have I've like gone

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Speaker 1: far and wide, but right now I'm in a pretty

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Speaker 1: narrow bubble. People will listen and they'll like I've seen

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Speaker 1: like eating disorders is one. People will say, like, this

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Speaker 1: is kind of disordered eating, Can you tag it? And

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Speaker 1: people will update the tags. But it's constantly like this

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Speaker 1: conversation people are having and having to be really aware

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Speaker 1: of what they're writing and how that impacts other people.

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Speaker 1: WHI that's definitely changed from when I was younger, but

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Speaker 1: I appreciate it. I feel like it's very considerate space

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Speaker 1: in that in that regard, I didn't mean to take

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Speaker 1: you down that path. Sorry, Like this is a whole

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Speaker 1: different conversation. Again. We've talked about fan fiction before, and

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Speaker 1: you and I had to sit down interview, and we've

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Speaker 1: even talked about like chips. I'm starting to learn. I'm

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Speaker 1: starting to learn. Have I jumped into this world. No,

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Speaker 1: but I live vicariously through you. So yes, I do

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Speaker 1: have questions, sometimes not talk about well, help you figure

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Speaker 1: it out. I'm like, okay, I have outside interests, and

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Speaker 1: then I move on ive it. So the book Coming

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Speaker 1: Back To opens with several upsetting modern quotes about consent

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Speaker 1: and rape culture and the role that pop culture plays

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Speaker 1: in it. So here's a quote. Feminist scholars and activists

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Speaker 1: see popular culture, including pornography and romance novels, as a

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Speaker 1: key source of our dominant idea is about sex and consent.

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Speaker 1: Popular culture is where we learned that pulling pigtails is

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Speaker 1: a sign of affection and that rejection is an invitation

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Speaker 1: to keep making bigger and bigger romantic gestures. However, even

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Speaker 1: though culture can reinforce many of the harmful ideas that

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Speaker 1: feminists have identified as contributing towards sexual violence and rape culture,

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Speaker 1: it also has the potential to drive change. Audiences, after all,

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Speaker 1: aren't passive and don't always read popular culture in exactly

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Speaker 1: the same way. We bring our own ideas and experiences

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Speaker 1: to it, and we interpreted and shape it as much

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Speaker 1: as it shapes us. So what do audiences do with

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Speaker 1: media and culture that tell us that potentially courses sexual

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Speaker 1: situations are normal, romantic, or in Nicola Gavy's words, just sex. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And I want to say here, like we're talking about

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Speaker 1: fan fiction obviously, but depcom does exist in other media.

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Speaker 1: This is just sort of a fan a fan fiction

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Speaker 1: term that has been used to identify it, and we're like, hey,

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Speaker 1: this is kind of problematic. Yeah. Yeah. I was just

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Speaker 1: thinking about some of the books that I used to

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Speaker 1: like younger and coming back to, like, oh god that

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Speaker 1: was that was not good, like Gone with the Wind

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Speaker 1: be there's so many problematic things. But essentially he rapes

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Speaker 1: her and we're all like, oh, he's so mainly that's

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Speaker 1: so romantic, and they're like wait what what? Yeah, see,

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Speaker 1: I didn't see that until I was older, and I

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Speaker 1: never read the book, and I remember be like, wait

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Speaker 1: a minute, okay, I'm looking around the theater, like uh so.

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Speaker 1: Papopa also shared one of the catalysts behind this book,

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Speaker 1: like one of the reasons that it got written, um quote.

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Speaker 1: About a week into the UK COVID nineteen pandemic quarantine,

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Speaker 1: I found myself explaining to a stranger on Facebook that

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Speaker 1: they didn't actually have to have sex with their partner

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Speaker 1: with whom they were currently in lockdown. This person, after

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Speaker 1: complaints from their partner that they weren't having enough sex,

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Speaker 1: had constructed an elaborate tracker in their bullet journal when

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Speaker 1: were they having sex, how often, what kind of sex?

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Speaker 1: Who had initiated it? Do I? They asked, show this

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Speaker 1: tracker to my partner so they see that actually I

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Speaker 1: initiate sex just as often. What I tried to get

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Speaker 1: this person and later my Twitter followers to understand is

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Speaker 1: that it didn't matter how often they had sex or

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Speaker 1: who initiated it, that it would in fact be okay

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Speaker 1: if they never had sex with their partner again. I

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Speaker 1: am honestly not sure if they believed me. Do you

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Speaker 1: believe me? What was your first reaction when you read that?

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Speaker 1: But they're my partner, of course I have to have

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Speaker 1: sex with them sometimes, but they want it, but they

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Speaker 1: need it. But if we're not having sex, then we're

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Speaker 1: obviously just friends with no benefits. But they'll leave me,

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Speaker 1: but they won't do the washing up. But I want it,

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Speaker 1: but I need it. But if they never want to

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Speaker 1: have sex with me again, I'll leave them. Here's something

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Speaker 1: else that might be hard to process for sex to

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Speaker 1: be truly consensual, never having sex again has to be

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Speaker 1: a meaningful, available option we talk about. Of all the things,

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Speaker 1: which is atrocious in itself, the statement but they won't

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Speaker 1: do the washing up, I find one of the most

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Speaker 1: disturbing things I've ever heard. Yes, yes, me too, but

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Speaker 1: I feel like I've heard that from people before, like

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Speaker 1: this transactional. They're going to be mad if we don't

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Speaker 1: have sex, and they're gonna take take it out on

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Speaker 1: me one way or the other. And it's I don't know,

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Speaker 1: I've heard that before, and it is very upsetting. It

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Speaker 1: is very very like in my mind, I have made

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Speaker 1: jokes like if you do this, I'll do this type

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Speaker 1: of thing, being a joke, but that was not a promise.

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Speaker 1: And maybe that's the conversation I need to think about.

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Speaker 1: In my head. I'm like, maybe this is not something

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Speaker 1: to joke about, because even though again between my partner

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Speaker 1: and I or whomever I was with at the time,

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Speaker 1: it wasn't a big thing and it wasn't transactional, it

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Speaker 1: wasn't a promise, and it wasn't a bargain. But hearing

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Speaker 1: seeing that and hearing that, it's like, holy what what

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Speaker 1: has happened. Can we talk about this level of uh servitude? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and essentially in a way that it is literally keeping

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Speaker 1: as if like this person owes you sex in some

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Speaker 1: way of form, which again is not consent. Yes, exactly exactly,

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Speaker 1: and we've talked about that before too. Of like even

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Speaker 1: when that whole idea of if somebody which I think

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Speaker 1: this is kind of fading away, but if like a

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Speaker 1: dude takes a lady in a very hetero sense on

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Speaker 1: a nice date then and he faces for it, then

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Speaker 1: sex is owed or expected, And um, I I don't

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Speaker 1: have necessarily experience like that. I've definitely felt pressured before

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Speaker 1: because somebody did something nice for me and I'm like,

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Speaker 1: that's probably what they want, which is not healthy lit

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Speaker 1: end of thinking. But I did, Um, this one guy wants.

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Speaker 1: He like, we were going on a couple of I

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Speaker 1: didn't know they were dates, but in his mind they

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Speaker 1: were dates, and he was like, well, after you wore

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Speaker 1: that dress at this nice restaurant, I knew we were dating.

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Speaker 1: And I was like, oh, no, okay, But just things

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Speaker 1: like that, like yeah, there's these expectations around it. Well, again,

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Speaker 1: this comes back to the fact that even law, even

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Speaker 1: the states and different types of judicial systems slash law enforcement.

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Speaker 1: Really do think that this law that you owe your

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Speaker 1: husband's sex, and what I mean law, I meant the

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Speaker 1: fact that for the longest time, marital rape wasn't acknowledged,

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Speaker 1: and even in some areas still isn't. To like that

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Speaker 1: point of literally saying and then having oh my god,

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Speaker 1: so many men's activists continually trying to say women old

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Speaker 1: them sex. Having sex with your wife is obligatory, or

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Speaker 1: wife having sex with their husbands is obligatory, and yes

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Speaker 1: they should be to give it up whenever it is

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Speaker 1: requested and this is the duty of the wife, and

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Speaker 1: that type of mindset, the fact that it still exists

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Speaker 1: and is perpetuated again as this conversation, Yes, yes, absolutely,

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Speaker 1: and Popova touches on that in this book, and I'm

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Speaker 1: glad you brought up the kind of like men's right activists,

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Speaker 1: because that's yeah, that's also another part of sex being

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Speaker 1: owed and being expected from women. Women being put into

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Speaker 1: this like gatekeeper role where they're the ones like being

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Speaker 1: cold or frigid or or you know, even on the

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Speaker 1: reverse side of being slutty and there and therefore worthless

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Speaker 1: and you don't want to be with her, um, like

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Speaker 1: that responsibility is on women, which we're gonna we're gonna

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Speaker 1: talk about more in a minute. Um. This book does

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Speaker 1: dig into examinations feminist scholars have had over the years

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Speaker 1: about consent and these more subtle power structures around it,

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Speaker 1: including in the context of relationships. Whether it's Catherine McKinnon

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Speaker 1: arguing that quote the way women and girls are socialized

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Speaker 1: in a pa triarchal society means they think of their

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Speaker 1: bodies as for sexual use by men, or Lois Panolt

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Speaker 1: arguing that for Western culture, things like what women are

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Speaker 1: wearing or whether they've accepted a drink or emmio yeah,

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Speaker 1: is sometimes you as a commitment um to generally piano

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Speaker 1: vaginal sex or how and are more modern times probably

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Speaker 1: people in the media make fun of asking for consent

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Speaker 1: before kissing or touching someone, um because it ruins the

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Speaker 1: romance or whatever, and that for young folks and especially women,

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Speaker 1: that in turn sometimes might make it harder for them

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Speaker 1: to say no because they feel like, well, I'm going

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Speaker 1: to ruin the romance or I'm gonna know whatever it

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Speaker 1: is these toxic messages they're getting. There are so many shows,

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Speaker 1: modern shows that still perpetuate this and call themselves feminist

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Speaker 1: shows that you're like, Okay, um, maybe we don't put

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Speaker 1: that narrative that where we teach young girls young boys

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Speaker 1: that uh, they need to just grab them up and

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Speaker 1: kiss them. Rest talk about why that's bad and that's

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Speaker 1: not romantic in the way you think, especially when you

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Speaker 1: do it in a manner that doesn't explain the actual

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Speaker 1: relationship between two people. Yes, yes, absolutely, and that that

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Speaker 1: has been really interesting too, because you know the nature

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Speaker 1: of fan fiction is, yes, like we're writing fiction about

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Speaker 1: all these older properties. Perhaps so like I find it

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Speaker 1: really interesting that if anybody does the scene from Empire

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Speaker 1: strikes back between Lee and han are you kind of

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Speaker 1: like corners are and kisses are that's labeled as dup

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Speaker 1: com like that is something that people have marked and

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Speaker 1: been like, this wasn't good not good friends. It's yeah,

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Speaker 1: and so let's talk about and we're not going to

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Speaker 1: go into this, but for those who have gone through

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Speaker 1: sexual trauma and having that happen, it's not cute, not romantic. No,

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Speaker 1: it's not. So all of this impact how we think

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Speaker 1: romantic relationships should be and what we should be going forward. Yes,

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Speaker 1: I think for the longest time, I had those narratives

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Speaker 1: of gone with the wind and ridiculous romances that you're

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Speaker 1: gonna be swept off your feet against your will, and

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Speaker 1: that's romance, cool, cool, cool. At best, this strongly discourages

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Speaker 1: us from exploring some less uh normal feeling relationship arrangements

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Speaker 1: that might actually be right for us. At worst, it

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Speaker 1: can trap us in dangerous situations. And that was a

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Speaker 1: quote from the book. And yeah, absolutely, especially when you

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Speaker 1: feel like you have no other choice, as in you

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Speaker 1: can't consent your way out of it as well, meaning

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Speaker 1: like I don't want this to be able to say

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Speaker 1: I don't want this. Yeah, yeah, And I think it's

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Speaker 1: worth making the point. These messages are strong, there, powerful,

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Speaker 1: and we're getting bombarded with him at a very young age,

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Speaker 1: so it's hard to unlearn all of like what popular

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Speaker 1: media has told you is romance. It's very very hard,

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Speaker 1: and I feel like for me that kind of results

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Speaker 1: in a There are a lot of reasons for this

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Speaker 1: is not just pop culture, but it is a piece

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Speaker 1: of it of Like I literally I feel like I

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Speaker 1: can't say yes or no, like I and I don't

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Speaker 1: know what I get, like frozen in that moment of

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Speaker 1: I'm not sure what's the safest thing to do is

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Speaker 1: and that's like the thing I think before of what

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Speaker 1: I actually want is safety, and that's yeah, that's not

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Speaker 1: that's not consent, that's not true consent, and yeah. All

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Speaker 1: of this also impacts how we think sex should go,

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Speaker 1: whether it's what counts as sex, how it should start,

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Speaker 1: how it should proceed and end, how much sex you

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Speaker 1: should be having, which is very dependent on your gender

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Speaker 1: and heteronormative scripts, and extremely damaging conversations around yes, yeah,

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Speaker 1: what was she wearing? Has she had something to drink?

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Speaker 1: Um Popova argues all of these dominant ideas come together

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Speaker 1: to make something quite toxic um quote. One utterly uncontested

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Speaker 1: indicator of consent, though, is if we initiate sex, if

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Speaker 1: we started, we must both want it and consent to it, right,

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Speaker 1: anything else would be unthinkable, unimaginable. Hopefully, by now we've

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Speaker 1: already begun to see the cracks in the story. Because

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Speaker 1: we should be having a certain amount of sex, so

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Speaker 1: society tells us, and we should be having sex in

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Speaker 1: a particular way. So what if we don't want to,

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Speaker 1: but we should, and so we initiate it? Anyway, not

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Speaker 1: true consent, right, So a huge part of this conversation

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Speaker 1: is the media that we consume and messages we are

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Speaker 1: bombarded with from systems like education or the government. To

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Speaker 1: make this point, Popova cites the work of black feminist

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Speaker 1: theorist Patricia Hill Collins, who argues that quote controlling images

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Speaker 1: or images we see and reproduce over and over again,

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Speaker 1: have been and are used as tools of oppression, and

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Speaker 1: particularly here oppression of black women. We know this, and

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Speaker 1: the work of Bell Hooks, who championed the significance of

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Speaker 1: a critical voice for marginalized people and communities, telling our

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Speaker 1: own stories instead of reproducing dominant stories used for oppression,

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Speaker 1: these controlling images. So I think that's really important. It's

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Speaker 1: about finding voice, taking control, and trying to rewrite the

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Speaker 1: narrative which has so often oppressed specifically black women, women

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Speaker 1: of color, people who are marginalized. Yes, critical voice is

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Speaker 1: something that is done within communities and requires paying attention

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Speaker 1: not just to our own experiences but also the experiences

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Speaker 1: of others. So important art is one avenue of developing

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Speaker 1: a critical voice. Yes, and Papopa writes, discursive resistance is

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Speaker 1: about making the unthinkable thinkable and the unnamable, nameable, the

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Speaker 1: unsayable sayable. Only when we can do these things can

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Speaker 1: we actually meaningfully act and fight for the material change

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Speaker 1: in the world. Is not until we can intelligibly articulate

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Speaker 1: that for yet to be meaningful, no has to be

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Speaker 1: an equally available option, and that we can identify those

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Speaker 1: spaces or that might not be the case and start

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Speaker 1: doing something about them. Okay, So how does fan fiction

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Speaker 1: play into all of this? Well quote. Ultimately, this book

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Speaker 1: argues that fan fiction is among the forms and spaces

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Speaker 1: in popular culture that have the potential to make significant

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Speaker 1: contributions to conversations around gender, sex, sexuality, and consent. That

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Speaker 1: the fan fiction communities engagements with issues of sexual consent

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Speaker 1: can be viewed as a distinct form of cultural activism,

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Speaker 1: the use of culture to challenge dominant ways of thinking

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Speaker 1: and to imagine and even enact alternatives. The production, circulation,

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Speaker 1: and discussion of fan fiction, a kind of communal textuality,

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Speaker 1: allows the community to enact a discursive resistance to dominant

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Speaker 1: ways of thinking by forming powerful alternative imaginaries of sexuality

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Speaker 1: and consent. Fan fiction communities also establish a practice of

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Speaker 1: consent through practices that encourage active engagement with consent issues

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Speaker 1: and center the well being of survivors of sexual violence,

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Speaker 1: thus enacting within community spaces what a world free of

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Speaker 1: sexual violence might look like. The Bova continues, This is

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Speaker 1: what we talk about when we talk about fan fiction,

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Speaker 1: a literature created by and for a community together, writing

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Speaker 1: based on other works in ways that expand challenge, rewrite,

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Speaker 1: and fill in the gaps in these works. Stories that

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00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:36,280
Speaker 1: are constantly in dialogue, not only with the originary work,

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Speaker 1: but also with each other and with culture more generally,

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00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:41,359
Speaker 1: and like all stories, when we read fan fiction, we

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00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:44,680
Speaker 1: bring our own experiences and interpretations to it, and sometimes

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Speaker 1: we walk away changed. So yes, let us get into

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Speaker 1: fan fiction and some examples and how it relates to

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Speaker 1: all of this. I'm so excited, all right, So let's

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Speaker 1: start with a quick note about slash, which I know

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00:23:57,080 --> 00:23:59,520
Speaker 1: we've talked about a lot um. This is a relationship

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00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:03,399
Speaker 1: between two male characters. Generally, that's what it's understood to be,

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Speaker 1: so it would be like Harry Slash Draco Dreary as

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Speaker 1: it's called. The overwhelming amount of Slash written by women

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Speaker 1: and what was once thought to be straight women um

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Speaker 1: has long perplexed academics looking into and they're like, wow,

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Speaker 1: these straight ladies so into two men banging. Um. It

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Speaker 1: turns out the fan fiction community is much queer than

417
00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:29,119
Speaker 1: originally believed, and that the answer is much more nuanced, complex,

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Speaker 1: and buried. One of the popular health theories is that

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Speaker 1: women writing two men together this is a way for

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Speaker 1: them to imagine what a truly equal partnership free of

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00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:43,440
Speaker 1: structural gender inequality could look like, or evening the playing

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Speaker 1: field when it comes to sex, romance, and relationships in

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Speaker 1: the face of a gendered power and balance. Popova argues though,

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Speaker 1: that while this might be a part of it, it's

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00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:54,680
Speaker 1: not the whole answer because there's so so so many

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Speaker 1: slash fan fiction where the relationship dynamic is anything but equal.

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Speaker 1: So Popova outline three of these such relationships and fan fiction.

428
00:25:05,760 --> 00:25:09,160
Speaker 1: So there's the alphabeta omega or the A B O universe,

429
00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:12,640
Speaker 1: the arranged marriage trope, and the real person fan fiction.

430
00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:16,200
Speaker 1: There's an example from real person fan fiction to demonstrate

431
00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:21,320
Speaker 1: uneven power dynamics in terms of sex and systems and slash.

432
00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:24,719
Speaker 1: So let's start with the Omega verse, which I know

433
00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:28,439
Speaker 1: we talked about briefly in our Women Writing Romance episode

434
00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:30,439
Speaker 1: and I was very nervous about it because I had

435
00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:32,680
Speaker 1: this kind of perception of it. And since then I've

436
00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:39,760
Speaker 1: read a few um, and I'm not scared anymore. But yes,

437
00:25:40,119 --> 00:25:42,080
Speaker 1: this is one of the main fan fiction tropes Popova

438
00:25:42,119 --> 00:25:45,880
Speaker 1: examined in this book and extrapolated out of this trope

439
00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:49,240
Speaker 1: what it says about consent and yeah, so this is

440
00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:53,879
Speaker 1: the omega verse, a bio genre Papovo rights. These are

441
00:25:53,920 --> 00:25:56,240
Speaker 1: the stories that seem to me to be asking such

442
00:25:56,320 --> 00:25:59,520
Speaker 1: questions as what does it feel like to negotiate power

443
00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:03,240
Speaker 1: dynamics in a relationship way? Or do power dynamics come from?

444
00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:06,760
Speaker 1: How can individuals challenge them? And what happens if they

445
00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:09,640
Speaker 1: don't do that? What does it take in a sexual

446
00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:12,720
Speaker 1: and romantic relationship to negate or at least minimize those

447
00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:17,040
Speaker 1: power dynamics to the point where individual agency and individual

448
00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:21,760
Speaker 1: consent can be considered meaningful? And the slash subgenre that

449
00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:26,440
Speaker 1: asked these questions most impactfully and most viscerally and provoked

450
00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:31,639
Speaker 1: the strongest reaction was the omega verse. Yes yes, So

451
00:26:31,760 --> 00:26:35,359
Speaker 1: let's let's step back a bit for a little refresher here. Um. So,

452
00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:38,520
Speaker 1: this is believed to have originated within Supernatural real person

453
00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:40,760
Speaker 1: fan fiction or fiction which we're gonna get to in

454
00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:46,040
Speaker 1: a second, which I had to look up. Oh yeah,

455
00:26:46,040 --> 00:26:49,520
Speaker 1: we're gonna talk about it. Um, here's a quote. Characters

456
00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:52,160
Speaker 1: in the Omega verse have a secondary gender. This may

457
00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:55,919
Speaker 1: be alpha, beta, or omega. Betas are effectively normal everyday

458
00:26:56,000 --> 00:26:58,600
Speaker 1: humans as you know them. Alpha's are socially and in

459
00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:03,760
Speaker 1: some interpretations by logically dominant, whereas omega's are submissive. Combining

460
00:27:03,760 --> 00:27:07,080
Speaker 1: the primary genders male female, and the secondary genders alphabet

461
00:27:07,119 --> 00:27:09,959
Speaker 1: Omega means that in the a bio universe there are

462
00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:13,439
Speaker 1: effectively six genders, male alpha's betas and omegas and female

463
00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:17,040
Speaker 1: alpha's betas and omega's. Other common elements in omegaver's stories

464
00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:20,840
Speaker 1: include human amatomy, sexuality, and social behavior altered to resemble

465
00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:23,879
Speaker 1: that of dogs are wolves, including a heightened sense of smell,

466
00:27:24,280 --> 00:27:27,439
Speaker 1: mating cycles or heat, and male alpha characters having a

467
00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:32,000
Speaker 1: penis similar to a canines, male pregnancy, and a potentially

468
00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:35,680
Speaker 1: lifelong psychic bond with a partner. The vast majority of

469
00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:38,240
Speaker 1: stories in the setting focus on male male relationships, and

470
00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:43,040
Speaker 1: particularly on the male alpha male omega configuration. Some fans

471
00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:46,240
Speaker 1: and fans study scholars have argued that this gender configuration

472
00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:48,919
Speaker 1: focus on one particular type of pairing shows that A

473
00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:52,639
Speaker 1: Bio fans have an essentialist approach to gender, that is,

474
00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:56,359
Speaker 1: they think of gender as purely biologically determined. But a

475
00:27:56,400 --> 00:27:59,320
Speaker 1: closer look at Omegaver's stories shows that writers and readers

476
00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:02,200
Speaker 1: interpret the stint to which the six genders are anchored

477
00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:06,959
Speaker 1: in biology as opposed to socially constructed very differently to

478
00:28:07,040 --> 00:28:10,120
Speaker 1: one another. Unsettling and moving away from a biological view

479
00:28:10,119 --> 00:28:13,000
Speaker 1: of gender is in fact a key theme in many

480
00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:15,080
Speaker 1: A bio stories, and one of the aspects of the

481
00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:17,639
Speaker 1: sub genre that allow it to examine issues of consent

482
00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:22,000
Speaker 1: in complex and interesting ways. Many readers and writers object

483
00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:24,439
Speaker 1: to its roots and b sality fiction are to the

484
00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:27,280
Speaker 1: extremely gendered power and balances at the core of the setting.

485
00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:31,000
Speaker 1: Some fan communities have even dubbed the a megaverse dog

486
00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:34,520
Speaker 1: rape World, showing a concern with issues of sexual violence

487
00:28:34,520 --> 00:28:41,080
Speaker 1: and consent in the setting that's intense yep. However, Popova

488
00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:44,880
Speaker 1: makes the argument that the megaverse tackles and challenges sexual

489
00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:48,360
Speaker 1: scripts and how what we culturally understand and think about

490
00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:52,840
Speaker 1: sex influences how we have sex quote in Western societies,

491
00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:56,840
Speaker 1: the dominant sexual scripts are highly gendered and heteronormative. This

492
00:28:56,960 --> 00:28:59,880
Speaker 1: means sex is generally seen as happening between once is

493
00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:02,960
Speaker 1: gender man and one cis gender woman, and who gets

494
00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:06,320
Speaker 1: to do what is determined in part by the person's gender.

495
00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:09,960
Speaker 1: We tend to view men as active insects. They initiated,

496
00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:13,000
Speaker 1: they actively moved through the steps of the script, while women,

497
00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:16,280
Speaker 1: on the other hand, are passive gatekeepers. They get to

498
00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:20,360
Speaker 1: say yes or no to men's advances, but the dominant

499
00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:24,160
Speaker 1: sexual script allows them little agency beyond that. We are

500
00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:28,360
Speaker 1: exposed to these cultural scripts through conversations without peers, through

501
00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:32,240
Speaker 1: some kinds of sex and relationships, education, and crucially through

502
00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:36,400
Speaker 1: popular culture. We can find supportive communities such as queer

503
00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:38,880
Speaker 1: feminists and b d s sim spaces where we can

504
00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:42,440
Speaker 1: collectedly acknowledge that something is wrong not with us for

505
00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:45,320
Speaker 1: being different, but with the cultural scripts as a whole,

506
00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:50,400
Speaker 1: and popova goes on. The distance created by the unfamiliar

507
00:29:50,480 --> 00:29:53,760
Speaker 1: settings allow us to use a bio stories to ask

508
00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:58,120
Speaker 1: questions about the power, structures and inequalities around gender and

509
00:29:58,160 --> 00:30:02,240
Speaker 1: how they map onto intimate relationships. Looking at such stories

510
00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:05,520
Speaker 1: through the lens of sexual script theory, in turn, allows

511
00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:09,360
Speaker 1: us to understand both the similarities and differences they present

512
00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:12,240
Speaker 1: to our own world and what those might say about

513
00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:17,640
Speaker 1: sexual consent. The omega versus supposed biological or social constructions

514
00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:22,160
Speaker 1: of different genders and sexualities leads to sometimes radically different

515
00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:26,520
Speaker 1: and sometimes a strikingly similar dominant sexual scripts in the

516
00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:30,720
Speaker 1: society is depicted in a bo fan fiction. It is

517
00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:34,320
Speaker 1: how such stories explore and manipulate these scripts, and how

518
00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:39,080
Speaker 1: their characters negotiate the disjunctures between the dominant scripts and

519
00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:44,360
Speaker 1: their desires, and that makes them interesting. Yeah. Yeah, Like

520
00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:46,200
Speaker 1: I said, I've read a few of them now I

521
00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:49,760
Speaker 1: find them very upsetting, but they're meant to be upsetting,

522
00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:54,239
Speaker 1: but definitely, Like being in omega generally is something you

523
00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:57,000
Speaker 1: do not want um and you try to hide. And

524
00:30:57,040 --> 00:31:00,200
Speaker 1: these sometimes in some stories align take like hormone owns

525
00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:02,680
Speaker 1: to try that. Why they make Jensen is that this

526
00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:05,400
Speaker 1: is Jensen, the favorite, and so therefore they make him

527
00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:10,040
Speaker 1: not the omega, And like I have a lot of

528
00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:13,120
Speaker 1: thoughts about that because I find that interesting because in

529
00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:15,440
Speaker 1: the show he is and I can know this is

530
00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:17,040
Speaker 1: a real person, which is the other parts like wait

531
00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:21,520
Speaker 1: what wait what wait? What? Um that I was like,

532
00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:26,520
Speaker 1: he is. Absolutely, I'm confused, Like there's so many things

533
00:31:26,520 --> 00:31:29,000
Speaker 1: that I'm confused about. I think it's a lot of

534
00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:31,080
Speaker 1: a lot of different things going on there, and we're

535
00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:32,760
Speaker 1: going to talk about some of them. I think one

536
00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:36,920
Speaker 1: of them is actually no joke, size, just the size difference,

537
00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:43,040
Speaker 1: because that is physical power dynamic difference there. I think women,

538
00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:46,800
Speaker 1: since women are largely writing fan fiction, the omega is

539
00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:50,400
Speaker 1: usually the one they're connecting with the most. Whether that's

540
00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:56,200
Speaker 1: because of it could just simply be like hotter, or

541
00:31:56,640 --> 00:31:59,640
Speaker 1: it could be like they have empathy, or they're there's

542
00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:02,320
Speaker 1: just so reason they're connecting with that person more. Then

543
00:32:02,360 --> 00:32:05,160
Speaker 1: I think that's the person that's probably the omega. And

544
00:32:05,320 --> 00:32:09,240
Speaker 1: usually the ones I have read, the Omega is seen

545
00:32:09,280 --> 00:32:12,840
Speaker 1: through their eyes. Um, it's told from their point of view.

546
00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:18,360
Speaker 1: Okay um. But yeah, So, as a Samantha was alluding to,

547
00:32:18,440 --> 00:32:21,200
Speaker 1: I could not talk about um some of the quotes

548
00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:25,720
Speaker 1: included in this book about the supernatural real person fiction.

549
00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:30,200
Speaker 1: UM that originated the Omega verse, because I did find

550
00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:32,360
Speaker 1: it really interesting and it gave me a lot of thoughts.

551
00:32:32,800 --> 00:32:36,720
Speaker 1: So here's one. In all three stories, Jared is the alpha,

552
00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:40,280
Speaker 1: Jared being the actor Jared paducky, and Jensen is the Omega.

553
00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:43,240
Speaker 1: The actor Jensen Nichols who plays Dean in real life

554
00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:45,520
Speaker 1: Jared paddle like he is taller than Jensen accles, and

555
00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:47,440
Speaker 1: this physical difference may have something to do with the

556
00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:50,840
Speaker 1: writer's artistic choices. An important part of the premise of

557
00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:53,800
Speaker 1: each story is also that Jensen has either never had

558
00:32:53,840 --> 00:32:56,640
Speaker 1: sex or relationship with a male alpha or has stopped

559
00:32:56,720 --> 00:33:00,400
Speaker 1: doing so some time ago. All three stories written in

560
00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:02,920
Speaker 1: a very close third person from Jensen's point of view,

561
00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:05,760
Speaker 1: and two are written in the present tense in both

562
00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:09,320
Speaker 1: slick and heat between you and me. Alpha's are clearly

563
00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:12,120
Speaker 1: the dominant and privileged social group, and all two stories

564
00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:14,920
Speaker 1: at least hint at Omega's being oppressed, are marginalized in

565
00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:19,040
Speaker 1: some way sure to lure someone's bad. By contrast, shows

566
00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:21,800
Speaker 1: us a society dominated by betas, in which both alpha's

567
00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:24,720
Speaker 1: and omega's are relatively rare. But even in this society,

568
00:33:24,800 --> 00:33:28,440
Speaker 1: alpha's are seen as domineering and omega's as submissive, and

569
00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:33,400
Speaker 1: that submissiveness is viewed negatively. It goes on, so the

570
00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:37,000
Speaker 1: idea that women are quote naturally more caring takes about

571
00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:40,440
Speaker 1: three articulations to translate to the economic oppression of women.

572
00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:43,240
Speaker 1: There are several possible ways to resist this. We could,

573
00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:45,560
Speaker 1: and this is roughly the strategy gens and adopts in

574
00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:48,320
Speaker 1: shure to lure someone bad, say quote. Women might be

575
00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:51,560
Speaker 1: naturally more caring, but this particular individual woman is an

576
00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:54,080
Speaker 1: exception and should therefore be allowed to be a doctor

577
00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:57,280
Speaker 1: rather the homemaker or a nurse. We could question why

578
00:33:57,360 --> 00:34:01,720
Speaker 1: qualities associated with femininity, such as caring are systematically undervalued

579
00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:05,240
Speaker 1: Feminists have a long history of campaigning for wages for housework,

580
00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:08,080
Speaker 1: for instance. Or we could question the whole idea of

581
00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:12,320
Speaker 1: biology to turning gender or personal characteristics. The latter two approaches,

582
00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:14,839
Speaker 1: especially when used together, are much more likely to lead

583
00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:17,759
Speaker 1: to long term social change, but they are also much

584
00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:20,360
Speaker 1: more difficult to implement, especially because we are all deeply

585
00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:24,319
Speaker 1: immersed in dominant ideas of gender. And here's one more

586
00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:27,360
Speaker 1: quote about it. The extreme version of the alpha and

587
00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:30,640
Speaker 1: omega stereotypes would have us understand omega's in heat as

588
00:34:30,680 --> 00:34:34,040
Speaker 1: seducers and alpha's as helpless and out of control when

589
00:34:34,080 --> 00:34:37,120
Speaker 1: confronted with that. Think again about the male sexual drive

590
00:34:37,160 --> 00:34:40,440
Speaker 1: discourse and associated rape miss quote. She was wearing a

591
00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:43,040
Speaker 1: short skirt and I couldn't help myself. But even though

592
00:34:43,120 --> 00:34:46,200
Speaker 1: Slick shows as a society that completely accepts this portrayal

593
00:34:46,200 --> 00:34:48,560
Speaker 1: of Alpha's and Omega's, it also shows us, through the

594
00:34:48,640 --> 00:34:53,000
Speaker 1: characters experiences, that the reality might be rather different. Jensen

595
00:34:53,080 --> 00:34:55,360
Speaker 1: here is not depicted as a seducer. He has in

596
00:34:55,440 --> 00:34:58,279
Speaker 1: fact done everything he can to avoid going into heat

597
00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:00,600
Speaker 1: in the first place. Is heat does not put him

598
00:35:00,600 --> 00:35:04,000
Speaker 1: in control. It makes him vulnerable and far from helpless

599
00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:06,760
Speaker 1: and just following his urges. Alpha Jared is in complete

600
00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:09,920
Speaker 1: control of both himself and the situation Throughout. By the

601
00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:12,000
Speaker 1: end of the story, Jensen has no choice but to

602
00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:15,440
Speaker 1: reluctantly conform to the dominant sexual script. He is legally

603
00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:18,200
Speaker 1: owned by Jared and probably pregnant, leaving him trapped in

604
00:35:18,200 --> 00:35:21,960
Speaker 1: an abusive relationship. Illegal and social framework around him completely

605
00:35:22,080 --> 00:35:28,239
Speaker 1: negates any agency he might try to exercise in negotiating consent. Yeah,

606
00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:34,279
Speaker 1: that's rough. Yeah, I'm just wondering. Yeah, there's so many

607
00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:38,400
Speaker 1: things in my head like this is not huh, I

608
00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:40,879
Speaker 1: have a lot I've actually thought about this a lot. Now,

609
00:35:40,920 --> 00:35:43,000
Speaker 1: I have a lot of thoughts about it, but yeah,

610
00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:46,200
Speaker 1: I mean most of them. It is. You want to

611
00:35:46,239 --> 00:35:50,439
Speaker 1: find a good alpha um, because a lot of times

612
00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:52,399
Speaker 1: you mate for life, and they that psychic bond thing

613
00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:54,879
Speaker 1: can really screw you up. So you want to find

614
00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:57,840
Speaker 1: someone who's actually like nice and going to listen to

615
00:35:57,880 --> 00:36:00,400
Speaker 1: you and wants to protect you. But if still like

616
00:36:00,440 --> 00:36:03,279
Speaker 1: that uneven paradynamic, it's still like a dependent on the

617
00:36:03,320 --> 00:36:06,440
Speaker 1: production of this person. And people really don't care what

618
00:36:06,920 --> 00:36:08,759
Speaker 1: in general what happens to them megas, they're kind of

619
00:36:08,840 --> 00:36:14,560
Speaker 1: viewed as like property um. Popova also goes into how

620
00:36:14,640 --> 00:36:17,120
Speaker 1: some of these stories could be a way of dealing

621
00:36:17,120 --> 00:36:21,719
Speaker 1: with biological responses of arousal winds, sexually assaulted, and navigating

622
00:36:21,719 --> 00:36:26,759
Speaker 1: consent in relation to sexual scripts, these scripts that we've

623
00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:32,000
Speaker 1: all absorbed, right, alright, So let's talk about the arranged

624
00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:37,040
Speaker 1: marriage trope, which Popova examined through Marvels thor Loki slash

625
00:36:37,160 --> 00:36:41,240
Speaker 1: which I have not seen that either. So they said,

626
00:36:41,480 --> 00:36:44,320
Speaker 1: look at the words used to describe the less powerful

627
00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:48,960
Speaker 1: partner in this ostensibly same gendered arrangement, queen wife. This

628
00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:52,719
Speaker 1: conversation highlights not only that marriages tend to be unequal arrangements,

629
00:36:52,880 --> 00:36:57,200
Speaker 1: but also suggests that inequality in marriage is deeply gendered.

630
00:36:57,680 --> 00:37:01,200
Speaker 1: Wives are worse off than husband's. Fan Fiction readers and

631
00:37:01,239 --> 00:37:04,840
Speaker 1: writers are clearly aware of the problems within the institution

632
00:37:04,920 --> 00:37:07,920
Speaker 1: of marriage and how it can be a tool of oppression.

633
00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:12,480
Speaker 1: So how do arrange marriage? Fan fiction stories depict marriage

634
00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:16,120
Speaker 1: as an institution and how do they tackle the inequalities

635
00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:20,799
Speaker 1: it produces, reproduces, and amplifies. But Bova goes on. Fan

636
00:37:20,840 --> 00:37:23,640
Speaker 1: fiction readers and writers then use both the stories themselves

637
00:37:23,719 --> 00:37:26,600
Speaker 1: and the para text around them to highlight how marriage consummation,

638
00:37:26,840 --> 00:37:29,359
Speaker 1: which we tend to see as normal, is at least

639
00:37:29,400 --> 00:37:32,960
Speaker 1: potentially problematic and coercive in some context. And because the

640
00:37:32,960 --> 00:37:36,400
Speaker 1: sources of inequality between the partners are both legal and cultural,

641
00:37:36,840 --> 00:37:40,600
Speaker 1: this re contextualization of marriage consummation as potentially coercive allows

642
00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:43,200
Speaker 1: readers and writers to question both the legal and cultural

643
00:37:43,239 --> 00:37:46,279
Speaker 1: foundations of marriage as an institution that they may have

644
00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:49,520
Speaker 1: been taken for granted. For the less powerful partner in

645
00:37:49,560 --> 00:37:52,440
Speaker 1: each of these marriages, then, refusing to consummate the marriage

646
00:37:52,440 --> 00:37:54,799
Speaker 1: is not really an option. This is why we see

647
00:37:54,840 --> 00:37:57,640
Speaker 1: Loki in seventeen push for consummation even though he does

648
00:37:57,680 --> 00:37:59,759
Speaker 1: not actually want to have sex with Thor, and that

649
00:37:59,840 --> 00:38:02,759
Speaker 1: of course is not meaningful consent. So what would it

650
00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:04,880
Speaker 1: take to enable the partner with less power in a

651
00:38:04,920 --> 00:38:08,480
Speaker 1: relationship to genuinely meaningfully consent to sex if they wanted to.

652
00:38:09,120 --> 00:38:11,360
Speaker 1: The answer we get from these stories is emotion work.

653
00:38:11,680 --> 00:38:14,360
Speaker 1: Amotion work performed by the partner with more power to

654
00:38:14,480 --> 00:38:17,720
Speaker 1: build a relationship, established trust, and above all, creative space

655
00:38:18,040 --> 00:38:21,600
Speaker 1: or refusal to consummate would be heard, respected and meaningful.

656
00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:24,959
Speaker 1: Continuing on what we are beginning to see from both

657
00:38:25,080 --> 00:38:27,560
Speaker 1: arranged marriage and a megap ours pain fiction is that

658
00:38:27,600 --> 00:38:31,160
Speaker 1: not all slash fiction is about equality. At least some

659
00:38:31,360 --> 00:38:35,440
Speaker 1: slash is a literature of negotiated inequality. It asks and

660
00:38:35,480 --> 00:38:38,759
Speaker 1: tries to answer this question. If we live in an

661
00:38:38,840 --> 00:38:41,920
Speaker 1: unequal world, in a society that structurally treats some of

662
00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:45,239
Speaker 1: us as lessers in various ways, what can we do

663
00:38:45,400 --> 00:38:50,600
Speaker 1: in our individual intimate relationships to negotiate and minimize those inequalities?

664
00:38:51,080 --> 00:38:54,719
Speaker 1: And if those inequalities affect our ability to consent, then

665
00:38:54,760 --> 00:38:56,760
Speaker 1: how do we get to a place where our consent

666
00:38:56,880 --> 00:39:00,520
Speaker 1: can be made meaningful again within the coerce of structure

667
00:39:00,520 --> 00:39:03,799
Speaker 1: as we lived in. Yes, I have read many an

668
00:39:03,920 --> 00:39:08,160
Speaker 1: arranged marriage trope fan fiction. It's because it's quite popular.

669
00:39:09,400 --> 00:39:12,040
Speaker 1: Was it all Star Wars? Most of it is starting.

670
00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:14,480
Speaker 1: I will say, like before Star Wars, Harry Potter was

671
00:39:14,520 --> 00:39:17,879
Speaker 1: my big one is huge in Harry Potter. Like it's

672
00:39:17,880 --> 00:39:19,720
Speaker 1: been a years since I've read Harry Potter fan fiction,

673
00:39:19,760 --> 00:39:22,880
Speaker 1: but it is huge. But it is big in Star Wars.

674
00:39:22,880 --> 00:39:26,080
Speaker 1: It's very big. Like the Mandalord didn't jar and the

675
00:39:26,360 --> 00:39:29,160
Speaker 1: Mandalorian Luke Skywalker's for some reason have to get married

676
00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:33,719
Speaker 1: and then all the heartfelt conversations that have to take

677
00:39:33,760 --> 00:39:37,440
Speaker 1: place and painful conversations they have to take place, and

678
00:39:37,480 --> 00:39:41,719
Speaker 1: then they've fall in love. Anyway, I can do like

679
00:39:41,920 --> 00:39:46,040
Speaker 1: such a like bingo car of what you'll see? I

680
00:39:46,040 --> 00:39:48,920
Speaker 1: thought you started one. I do have. I have all

681
00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:51,920
Speaker 1: a lot of terms ready to go, but I haven't

682
00:39:51,960 --> 00:39:54,680
Speaker 1: actually made it. But I've been thinking about it for

683
00:39:54,680 --> 00:40:11,200
Speaker 1: a while. Um. I did briefly want to touch on

684
00:40:11,239 --> 00:40:13,960
Speaker 1: real person fiction, which I've kind of been switching back

685
00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:15,520
Speaker 1: and forth between what I call it because I often

686
00:40:15,560 --> 00:40:17,520
Speaker 1: call it real person fan fiction, but it's real person

687
00:40:17,560 --> 00:40:21,120
Speaker 1: fiction or RPF. So that's you know, stories written about

688
00:40:21,880 --> 00:40:26,439
Speaker 1: actors are real people. Um, and they use fan fiction settings. Uh.

689
00:40:26,440 --> 00:40:28,759
Speaker 1: And I don't have much experience with this world. I do.

690
00:40:28,880 --> 00:40:31,680
Speaker 1: Some listeners have written in about fiction that they write

691
00:40:31,760 --> 00:40:34,759
Speaker 1: for it, uh, and I wanted to include this because

692
00:40:34,760 --> 00:40:39,360
Speaker 1: I thought it was interesting because the story that Popova

693
00:40:39,480 --> 00:40:42,200
Speaker 1: kind of examines looks into what happens when a fan

694
00:40:42,280 --> 00:40:47,200
Speaker 1: fiction community when something from the real world and packs it,

695
00:40:47,320 --> 00:40:49,560
Speaker 1: especially in this case we're talking a real person fiction.

696
00:40:50,160 --> 00:40:52,840
Speaker 1: So here's a quote. The Hockey RPF community used a

697
00:40:52,920 --> 00:40:56,160
Speaker 1: range of RPF cannon construction techniques in their evaluation of

698
00:40:56,160 --> 00:41:00,000
Speaker 1: the rape allegations against Patrick Kane. By bringing in community

699
00:41:00,120 --> 00:41:03,280
Speaker 1: members own experiences of sexual assault and the criminal justice system,

700
00:41:03,520 --> 00:41:07,080
Speaker 1: they constructed a version of the complainant um left nameless, faceless,

701
00:41:07,120 --> 00:41:10,520
Speaker 1: and voiceless by measures ostensibly intended to protect her, that

702
00:41:10,560 --> 00:41:13,759
Speaker 1: they could empathize with and whose credibility was boistered. The

703
00:41:13,800 --> 00:41:17,920
Speaker 1: district attorneys professional reputation, use of loaded language, and possible

704
00:41:17,920 --> 00:41:21,480
Speaker 1: political motivations were used to construct three different versions of him.

705
00:41:21,520 --> 00:41:23,799
Speaker 1: All of these characterizations were used to humanize and give

706
00:41:23,880 --> 00:41:27,279
Speaker 1: face to the law, allowing Hockey RPF community members to

707
00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:30,800
Speaker 1: engage with and challenge the criminal justice system in complex

708
00:41:30,840 --> 00:41:35,080
Speaker 1: and nuanced ways. So this was it was really interesting

709
00:41:35,120 --> 00:41:37,759
Speaker 1: because it was a Patrick Kane as a hockey player,

710
00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:42,359
Speaker 1: as a hockey player had these allegations, allegations and then

711
00:41:42,440 --> 00:41:46,239
Speaker 1: that that kind of community had to deal with how well,

712
00:41:46,239 --> 00:41:47,400
Speaker 1: how are we going to talk about it? How are

713
00:41:47,400 --> 00:41:49,600
Speaker 1: we going to handle it? So in this space and

714
00:41:49,600 --> 00:41:52,560
Speaker 1: in this particular case, several of the stories challenged the

715
00:41:52,680 --> 00:41:56,200
Speaker 1: law and the way cases like this are treated and prosecuted,

716
00:41:56,320 --> 00:42:00,080
Speaker 1: and especially in terms of sexual violence and kind of

717
00:42:00,120 --> 00:42:04,920
Speaker 1: the flaws there. So it was really interesting. So in

718
00:42:04,960 --> 00:42:09,719
Speaker 1: the RPF community, is it a big sports network up

719
00:42:09,719 --> 00:42:13,319
Speaker 1: community sports? I'm very surprised to hear that hockey is

720
00:42:14,560 --> 00:42:18,120
Speaker 1: actually based in all of this. Yeah, no, actually I

721
00:42:18,160 --> 00:42:20,960
Speaker 1: was too, But I'm pretty sure several listeners have written

722
00:42:20,960 --> 00:42:25,040
Speaker 1: in about being a part of the the sports RPF community,

723
00:42:25,040 --> 00:42:28,040
Speaker 1: and actually, they're your letters really interesting. I hope you're

724
00:42:28,040 --> 00:42:31,040
Speaker 1: still listening, because a lot of them talked about how

725
00:42:31,080 --> 00:42:34,520
Speaker 1: it was they kind of got double judged sometimes because

726
00:42:35,400 --> 00:42:39,120
Speaker 1: um sports is seen as a more masculine Spanish activity,

727
00:42:39,120 --> 00:42:43,640
Speaker 1: whereas fan fiction is very much more feminine right Fanish activity,

728
00:42:44,120 --> 00:42:47,880
Speaker 1: and so it was kind of like everybody was looking

729
00:42:47,880 --> 00:42:50,759
Speaker 1: at them kind of skew almost. It was sort of

730
00:42:51,040 --> 00:42:54,080
Speaker 1: what they described to me is what it sounded like. Um,

731
00:42:54,160 --> 00:42:55,799
Speaker 1: but that it was. It could be very supportive and

732
00:42:55,800 --> 00:42:58,399
Speaker 1: people were really passionate in it. I think I've said

733
00:42:58,440 --> 00:43:02,200
Speaker 1: this before. The biggest celebrities are pretty big, but I

734
00:43:02,239 --> 00:43:06,080
Speaker 1: would say the biggest part of URPF is definitely UM musicians.

735
00:43:06,360 --> 00:43:09,759
Speaker 1: Musicians and for a while was like one direction all

736
00:43:10,200 --> 00:43:16,080
Speaker 1: that was under action? Is it now? BTS? Probably probably listeners.

737
00:43:16,719 --> 00:43:18,480
Speaker 1: I know, so a listener has written in about a

738
00:43:18,520 --> 00:43:22,200
Speaker 1: BTS fan fiction they're working on. Yeah, that's awesome. No,

739
00:43:22,360 --> 00:43:24,399
Speaker 1: like I said, I wrote, I wrote one. I wrote

740
00:43:24,400 --> 00:43:31,960
Speaker 1: one about Billy green Day. I love screen days. Very interesting.

741
00:43:32,000 --> 00:43:34,200
Speaker 1: I like this mix. Uh, it's like one of those

742
00:43:34,239 --> 00:43:36,720
Speaker 1: moments of like, huh. Interesting to see it being placed

743
00:43:36,719 --> 00:43:40,120
Speaker 1: on real people that actually exist. I wonder if they

744
00:43:40,120 --> 00:43:43,080
Speaker 1: read them. Oh I somebody wrote one about me and

745
00:43:43,120 --> 00:43:45,719
Speaker 1: sent it to me and I loved it. Okay, didn't

746
00:43:45,800 --> 00:43:48,680
Speaker 1: Misha Collins have Like, didn't he actually read one of

747
00:43:48,719 --> 00:43:54,319
Speaker 1: his own or something like? Yes? I feel like he did.

748
00:43:54,840 --> 00:43:57,560
Speaker 1: All right. So, as part of the book, Popova interviewed

749
00:43:57,560 --> 00:44:00,279
Speaker 1: readers and writers about what all of this mean in

750
00:44:00,400 --> 00:44:03,520
Speaker 1: terms of real world implications. And here's a quote from

751
00:44:03,520 --> 00:44:07,160
Speaker 1: Popova about their response. On the one hand, it is

752
00:44:07,160 --> 00:44:10,040
Speaker 1: a source of knowledge about consent, and this knowledge is

753
00:44:10,080 --> 00:44:14,360
Speaker 1: created by the whole community and focuses on lived experiences

754
00:44:14,400 --> 00:44:17,160
Speaker 1: and emotions. On the other hand, it is also a

755
00:44:17,200 --> 00:44:19,920
Speaker 1: space where they can creatively explore the issues that come

756
00:44:19,960 --> 00:44:23,400
Speaker 1: across in their own life and make their own contributions

757
00:44:23,440 --> 00:44:27,279
Speaker 1: to the community's knowledge. Fan Fiction readers and writers take

758
00:44:27,320 --> 00:44:31,040
Speaker 1: what they see as problematic mainstream text and rewrite them

759
00:44:31,080 --> 00:44:34,800
Speaker 1: to suit their own needs. In this process, they seek

760
00:44:34,840 --> 00:44:38,560
Speaker 1: to hold accountable both creators of mainstream media and, as

761
00:44:38,600 --> 00:44:41,200
Speaker 1: we will see in the remainder of this chapter, each

762
00:44:41,200 --> 00:44:44,239
Speaker 1: other for the kinds of representation they offer in key

763
00:44:44,280 --> 00:44:49,560
Speaker 1: areas such as gender, sexuality, and consent. Fan Fiction communities

764
00:44:49,560 --> 00:44:53,120
Speaker 1: provide a space where readers and writers can make issues

765
00:44:53,239 --> 00:44:57,279
Speaker 1: of consent and it's representation in mainstream media visible, where

766
00:44:57,280 --> 00:44:59,760
Speaker 1: they can name the problem of the normalization of sexual

767
00:44:59,840 --> 00:45:03,880
Speaker 1: vio lens and coersive sexual practices as just sex, and

768
00:45:03,920 --> 00:45:07,920
Speaker 1: where they can collectively come up with alternative ideas, knowledges,

769
00:45:08,000 --> 00:45:12,000
Speaker 1: and imaginaries. All of this, in turn allows fans not

770
00:45:12,080 --> 00:45:15,920
Speaker 1: only to challenge dominant ideas of sex, sexuality, and consent,

771
00:45:16,560 --> 00:45:19,920
Speaker 1: but also to understand and challenge the role of social

772
00:45:19,960 --> 00:45:23,200
Speaker 1: institutions like the law and the criminal justice systems in

773
00:45:23,440 --> 00:45:28,279
Speaker 1: sexual violence. Yeah. And one interesting point that this book

774
00:45:28,360 --> 00:45:30,839
Speaker 1: drove home and we sort of mentioned a little bit

775
00:45:30,960 --> 00:45:34,320
Speaker 1: was the tagging on a O three, along with trigger

776
00:45:34,360 --> 00:45:36,880
Speaker 1: and content warnings, often placed at the top of chapters,

777
00:45:36,920 --> 00:45:39,840
Speaker 1: which aside, it was really fun to read someone explaining

778
00:45:39,880 --> 00:45:42,520
Speaker 1: fan fiction as someone who knows it so well, I

779
00:45:42,560 --> 00:45:45,160
Speaker 1: gotta kick out of it. Yeah. So, like a lot

780
00:45:45,200 --> 00:45:46,839
Speaker 1: of times, you've got the tags that kind of tell

781
00:45:46,880 --> 00:45:50,040
Speaker 1: you what you might be getting. Um. And then when

782
00:45:50,040 --> 00:45:51,759
Speaker 1: you at the start of every chapter usually have a

783
00:45:51,760 --> 00:45:54,840
Speaker 1: trigger content warning and you can click on it and

784
00:45:54,840 --> 00:45:56,319
Speaker 1: it will skip to the bottom of the chapter, so

785
00:45:56,360 --> 00:45:58,600
Speaker 1: you won't be spoiled. Not all of them do that way.

786
00:45:58,640 --> 00:46:00,560
Speaker 1: Some some of them just happen on the top, um,

787
00:46:00,600 --> 00:46:03,279
Speaker 1: and it'll be like, you know, here's what's happening in

788
00:46:03,280 --> 00:46:05,560
Speaker 1: this chapter if you're worried about any of these particular things.

789
00:46:05,560 --> 00:46:08,359
Speaker 1: And sometimes there will be an author's note like, oh

790
00:46:08,440 --> 00:46:11,279
Speaker 1: this is you know where I was coming from with this,

791
00:46:11,560 --> 00:46:13,719
Speaker 1: and I wasn't in a good space or whatever it is.

792
00:46:14,320 --> 00:46:17,759
Speaker 1: So you have all of that, which is indicating that

793
00:46:17,800 --> 00:46:20,720
Speaker 1: the authors of this fan fiction are actively thinking about

794
00:46:20,719 --> 00:46:23,480
Speaker 1: what they are writing and how it will and could

795
00:46:23,520 --> 00:46:27,080
Speaker 1: be perceived, and the health of those that read it,

796
00:46:27,400 --> 00:46:30,600
Speaker 1: um including that of sexual abuse survivors who are largely

797
00:46:30,640 --> 00:46:35,120
Speaker 1: women and also largely the audience. Reader's interviewed discussed how

798
00:46:35,120 --> 00:46:37,759
Speaker 1: important it was to their enjoyment and knowing whether the

799
00:46:37,800 --> 00:46:42,200
Speaker 1: author intended to explore something problematic or was unaware that

800
00:46:42,280 --> 00:46:46,600
Speaker 1: they were doing so. Quote. Through tags and other para text,

801
00:46:46,680 --> 00:46:49,759
Speaker 1: authors can clarify their intent outside but adjacent to the

802
00:46:49,760 --> 00:46:53,080
Speaker 1: main body of the fan work. Interviewees saw such clarifications

803
00:46:53,120 --> 00:46:56,400
Speaker 1: as particularly important when it came to issues of consent. Blissy,

804
00:46:56,760 --> 00:46:59,920
Speaker 1: somebody that was interviewed for this, summarized the importance of

805
00:47:00,000 --> 00:47:02,959
Speaker 1: this communication channel outside the text, the tagging. I find

806
00:47:02,960 --> 00:47:05,080
Speaker 1: that really important because that tells you that the person

807
00:47:05,120 --> 00:47:08,800
Speaker 1: has thought through what they're writing. This comment shows that

808
00:47:08,840 --> 00:47:11,239
Speaker 1: where issues of sexual consent feature in a work of

809
00:47:11,239 --> 00:47:14,600
Speaker 1: fan fiction, readers find it important to know, and writers

810
00:47:14,600 --> 00:47:18,239
Speaker 1: seek to show that the author has consciously thought through

811
00:47:18,320 --> 00:47:20,680
Speaker 1: them and deliberately chosen to explore them as part of

812
00:47:20,680 --> 00:47:25,040
Speaker 1: the story. In particular, when the sexual situation depicted in

813
00:47:25,040 --> 00:47:28,520
Speaker 1: the story includes elements of ambiguous are dubious consent or

814
00:47:28,600 --> 00:47:31,399
Speaker 1: is a depiction of rape. Both readers and writers use

815
00:47:31,440 --> 00:47:34,080
Speaker 1: the meta data around the stories, such as tags, warnings,

816
00:47:34,080 --> 00:47:37,480
Speaker 1: and author's notes to determine whether these elements are deliberate.

817
00:47:37,800 --> 00:47:41,120
Speaker 1: This stance in contrast to the kind of unsuccessful attempt

818
00:47:41,160 --> 00:47:44,080
Speaker 1: to depict con sexual sex we saw fan fiction readers

819
00:47:44,080 --> 00:47:48,160
Speaker 1: and writers criticize and mainstream media. Fan fiction community members

820
00:47:48,200 --> 00:47:51,520
Speaker 1: see situations they can identify as problematic or as violations

821
00:47:51,680 --> 00:47:55,719
Speaker 1: due to power differentials involving dubious consent for other reasons,

822
00:47:55,760 --> 00:47:59,040
Speaker 1: are being outright non consensual depicted in mainstream media as

823
00:47:59,040 --> 00:48:03,359
Speaker 1: perfectly unproblem addic normal consensual sex. In many cases, they

824
00:48:03,400 --> 00:48:05,920
Speaker 1: are aware of having themselves absorbed some of these attitudes

825
00:48:05,920 --> 00:48:08,120
Speaker 1: to sex from media, and of the work it has

826
00:48:08,200 --> 00:48:12,160
Speaker 1: taken for them to unlearn some of them. And yeah,

827
00:48:12,239 --> 00:48:14,759
Speaker 1: you see this a lot. You'll see like the interactions

828
00:48:14,800 --> 00:48:21,120
Speaker 1: between like the authors and commoners and um kind of

829
00:48:21,120 --> 00:48:24,319
Speaker 1: this just ongoing discussion around it, and and authors will

830
00:48:24,360 --> 00:48:29,760
Speaker 1: be really open about whatever they they are working through,

831
00:48:29,960 --> 00:48:33,600
Speaker 1: or or why they wanted wanted to explore something, or

832
00:48:33,600 --> 00:48:36,480
Speaker 1: why they depicted it a certain way. And I think,

833
00:48:36,520 --> 00:48:37,680
Speaker 1: like I said at the top, That's been one of

834
00:48:37,680 --> 00:48:39,279
Speaker 1: the biggest changes I've seen is I feel like ub

835
00:48:39,360 --> 00:48:42,840
Speaker 1: Coom when I first started reading fan fiction was very

836
00:48:43,160 --> 00:48:47,160
Speaker 1: much romanticized, and now it is very much not. It

837
00:48:47,200 --> 00:48:51,520
Speaker 1: is not at all. They still exist for sure, but

838
00:48:52,160 --> 00:48:55,120
Speaker 1: people like like they're they're saying and all the clothes

839
00:48:55,160 --> 00:48:58,840
Speaker 1: we've read. People will be like, hey, it's kind of problematic.

840
00:48:58,880 --> 00:49:01,560
Speaker 1: You need to tag it this way, and that makes

841
00:49:01,600 --> 00:49:05,160
Speaker 1: the person think about it like, oh, Okay, I didn't

842
00:49:05,160 --> 00:49:07,560
Speaker 1: really realize, and sometimes, you know, they might dig their

843
00:49:07,560 --> 00:49:09,520
Speaker 1: feet in and be like no, no, no, no. But

844
00:49:09,600 --> 00:49:11,319
Speaker 1: other times, a lot of the time they'll be like,

845
00:49:11,480 --> 00:49:15,359
Speaker 1: oh okay, I didn't I didn't realize, and then that's

846
00:49:15,360 --> 00:49:18,680
Speaker 1: just that can shift a whole Like then that person

847
00:49:18,760 --> 00:49:21,880
Speaker 1: might start rethinking all these other things, and then it

848
00:49:21,960 --> 00:49:25,560
Speaker 1: just spreads. And I have started thinking about because as

849
00:49:25,560 --> 00:49:30,439
Speaker 1: you know, I've written many hand fiction during lockdown, there's

850
00:49:30,520 --> 00:49:32,600
Speaker 1: one that I'm like, maybe I will follow this this one,

851
00:49:32,880 --> 00:49:34,759
Speaker 1: and I started to think about how I would tag it.

852
00:49:34,800 --> 00:49:37,799
Speaker 1: And it's been a really interesting thought exercise because you

853
00:49:37,880 --> 00:49:41,279
Speaker 1: really have to think about like how people will interpret it,

854
00:49:41,440 --> 00:49:44,600
Speaker 1: anything that could be harmful people, I mean, people tag

855
00:49:44,680 --> 00:49:48,120
Speaker 1: like mental health issues, it kind of reminds me of us,

856
00:49:48,160 --> 00:49:51,279
Speaker 1: and we're trying to capture when our trigger warnings all

857
00:49:51,320 --> 00:49:54,680
Speaker 1: the things, right, I mean, like, yeah, we talked about

858
00:49:54,680 --> 00:49:57,880
Speaker 1: the fact that was content warning of ours is trigger warning,

859
00:49:58,239 --> 00:50:01,200
Speaker 1: um it brief mentions up the is because essentially we're

860
00:50:01,200 --> 00:50:05,440
Speaker 1: not necessarily delving into specific situations that we're not getting graphic,

861
00:50:05,800 --> 00:50:08,759
Speaker 1: but still just a topic alone, just hearing the word

862
00:50:08,760 --> 00:50:12,160
Speaker 1: would be good, you know, which I find that interesting.

863
00:50:12,160 --> 00:50:14,120
Speaker 1: I know we had that conversation when you were talking

864
00:50:14,160 --> 00:50:16,719
Speaker 1: about trying to depict sexual violence and writing and how

865
00:50:16,760 --> 00:50:18,719
Speaker 1: do you do it in a way that's not romanticized

866
00:50:18,840 --> 00:50:22,480
Speaker 1: and or fetishized, And that's a big conversation in trying

867
00:50:22,520 --> 00:50:24,600
Speaker 1: to figure out how do you do this in the

868
00:50:24,600 --> 00:50:29,520
Speaker 1: best way that not only keeps you mentally healthy but

869
00:50:29,640 --> 00:50:31,239
Speaker 1: others who were reading it. So it's a it's a

870
00:50:31,320 --> 00:50:34,040
Speaker 1: thing for sure, for sure. Yeah, And I think that's

871
00:50:34,040 --> 00:50:36,960
Speaker 1: one of the interesting things about fan fiction in particular,

872
00:50:37,000 --> 00:50:38,960
Speaker 1: because one of my big hang ups is definitely like

873
00:50:39,000 --> 00:50:40,200
Speaker 1: I don't want to hurt myself, I don't want to

874
00:50:40,239 --> 00:50:42,959
Speaker 1: hurt anybody writing that. But also it just feels weird

875
00:50:42,960 --> 00:50:45,920
Speaker 1: when it's like entertainment and like what is the value

876
00:50:45,960 --> 00:50:48,720
Speaker 1: of showing this? But I feel like in fan fiction

877
00:50:48,760 --> 00:50:51,319
Speaker 1: because it is written mostly by women and marginalized people

878
00:50:51,320 --> 00:50:53,960
Speaker 1: and read mostly by women and marginalized people who do

879
00:50:54,040 --> 00:50:56,040
Speaker 1: have higher rates of experiencing that, then I think it

880
00:50:56,280 --> 00:50:59,120
Speaker 1: feels different to me where it still has to be

881
00:50:59,120 --> 00:51:03,319
Speaker 1: done safely. Don't get me wrong, and always ask like why, what,

882
00:51:03,320 --> 00:51:05,520
Speaker 1: what is the what am I working through? What? Why

883
00:51:05,600 --> 00:51:06,680
Speaker 1: is it that I want to write this? But it

884
00:51:06,719 --> 00:51:08,920
Speaker 1: does feel different because it's something that we're kind of

885
00:51:08,920 --> 00:51:13,399
Speaker 1: all working through or unfortunately a lot of us, as

886
00:51:13,400 --> 00:51:15,839
Speaker 1: compared to like mainstream media, where I feel a lot

887
00:51:15,960 --> 00:51:21,560
Speaker 1: like squeakier about it, right, yeah, uh so. Popova continues

888
00:51:21,840 --> 00:51:25,840
Speaker 1: This stance implicitly acknowledges that, given the fan fiction community

889
00:51:25,840 --> 00:51:29,520
Speaker 1: consists predominantly of women and non binary people who statistically

890
00:51:29,560 --> 00:51:33,640
Speaker 1: experienced sexual violence at higher race, a significant proportion of

891
00:51:33,640 --> 00:51:38,799
Speaker 1: community members are or maybe survivors of sexual violence. This

892
00:51:38,880 --> 00:51:43,120
Speaker 1: acknowledgement is critical to understanding the importance the fan fiction

893
00:51:43,200 --> 00:51:47,239
Speaker 1: community places on issues of sexual consent and both as

894
00:51:47,320 --> 00:51:51,160
Speaker 1: creative output and it's day to day practices. So the

895
00:51:51,200 --> 00:51:55,280
Speaker 1: community actively chooses to center survivors safety and enable community

896
00:51:55,280 --> 00:51:58,560
Speaker 1: members to give informed consents to the kinds of content

897
00:51:58,640 --> 00:52:01,759
Speaker 1: they are exposed to, is in itself a form of

898
00:52:01,800 --> 00:52:06,319
Speaker 1: cultural activism, a pre figurative act, a lived practice of

899
00:52:06,400 --> 00:52:10,800
Speaker 1: how a world where sexual violence was not normalized would

900
00:52:10,880 --> 00:52:15,200
Speaker 1: work on issues of sexual consent. In particular, fan fiction

901
00:52:15,280 --> 00:52:18,719
Speaker 1: is a form of cultural activism. Readers and writers come

902
00:52:18,719 --> 00:52:22,080
Speaker 1: together and as a community explore the kinds of difficult

903
00:52:22,160 --> 00:52:26,000
Speaker 1: questions about consent that the dominant ideas in our society

904
00:52:26,320 --> 00:52:30,279
Speaker 1: make all but an askable. In their interactions with each other,

905
00:52:30,480 --> 00:52:34,359
Speaker 1: their community practices, and their infrastructures. Fan fiction readers and

906
00:52:34,480 --> 00:52:38,600
Speaker 1: writers in act of practice of consent making, their knowledge

907
00:52:38,680 --> 00:52:42,640
Speaker 1: is manifest in the real world in this way that

908
00:52:42,800 --> 00:52:45,399
Speaker 1: they show us what a world without rape culture might

909
00:52:45,440 --> 00:52:49,200
Speaker 1: look like. Fan Fiction then remains a crucial tool for

910
00:52:49,280 --> 00:52:53,680
Speaker 1: developing our knowledge and understanding of consent. It continues to

911
00:52:53,760 --> 00:52:58,080
Speaker 1: operate outside traditional knowledge production and valid structures. It builds

912
00:52:58,160 --> 00:53:01,879
Speaker 1: on epistemologies rooted in lived experiences, and at the same

913
00:53:01,920 --> 00:53:06,600
Speaker 1: time accounts for and challenges our society's dominant ideas about sex.

914
00:53:07,040 --> 00:53:10,000
Speaker 1: We will continue to need these kinds of new, marginalized

915
00:53:10,080 --> 00:53:14,880
Speaker 1: and subjugated knowledges for some time to come. Yeah, definitely.

916
00:53:15,160 --> 00:53:17,360
Speaker 1: You have been spewing this for a while, and I

917
00:53:17,440 --> 00:53:20,239
Speaker 1: say that in a loving manner that this really is

918
00:53:21,040 --> 00:53:24,320
Speaker 1: even though there's of course toxicity any any community, especially

919
00:53:24,360 --> 00:53:28,080
Speaker 1: in public forums and Internet world all of that, but

920
00:53:28,200 --> 00:53:31,440
Speaker 1: it remains to be one of the most conscientious of

921
00:53:31,520 --> 00:53:36,400
Speaker 1: platforms that exists in a way that does seem like

922
00:53:36,480 --> 00:53:40,960
Speaker 1: kind of a hopeful Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's always

923
00:53:41,000 --> 00:53:42,920
Speaker 1: one of those things I could obviously I can talk

924
00:53:42,920 --> 00:53:46,400
Speaker 1: about this forever and forever and go on. But to me,

925
00:53:46,480 --> 00:53:48,759
Speaker 1: there's just such a need for it because you don't

926
00:53:48,760 --> 00:53:52,440
Speaker 1: if you don't see yourself represented for whatever reason, whether

927
00:53:52,560 --> 00:53:55,759
Speaker 1: it's race or how you identify whatever it is, or

928
00:53:55,800 --> 00:53:58,080
Speaker 1: you don't see couples that you identify with. But you

929
00:53:58,120 --> 00:54:01,759
Speaker 1: love these characters and you want to go and they'll

930
00:54:01,880 --> 00:54:04,120
Speaker 1: play in that sandbox, as they say, and then you

931
00:54:04,200 --> 00:54:06,480
Speaker 1: get to interact with other people who also want to play,

932
00:54:06,480 --> 00:54:10,000
Speaker 1: and maybe you're super specific niche box, and you have

933
00:54:10,040 --> 00:54:13,080
Speaker 1: these conversations and you can tackle some really big things

934
00:54:13,120 --> 00:54:16,080
Speaker 1: and people can be really supportive, and I love I

935
00:54:16,120 --> 00:54:19,240
Speaker 1: love how people will like make fan art for something

936
00:54:19,239 --> 00:54:22,840
Speaker 1: that people fan fiction people wrote and it's just um,

937
00:54:22,880 --> 00:54:27,040
Speaker 1: it has the potential to be really powerful and beautiful

938
00:54:27,239 --> 00:54:30,160
Speaker 1: and in a lovely space. And yes, I do think

939
00:54:30,160 --> 00:54:33,680
Speaker 1: I should just teach a class on fan fiction. And

940
00:54:33,719 --> 00:54:37,800
Speaker 1: it's it's definitely improved, there's still, like you said, there's

941
00:54:37,840 --> 00:54:41,839
Speaker 1: still some areas of toxicity. I think one thing that

942
00:54:41,880 --> 00:54:44,600
Speaker 1: I'm curious about is a lot of fan fiction is

943
00:54:44,600 --> 00:54:48,440
Speaker 1: written by young girls. And when I was growing up

944
00:54:48,440 --> 00:54:51,480
Speaker 1: and do it writing, I just feel like that can

945
00:54:51,560 --> 00:54:54,560
Speaker 1: be I would I would implore everyone to be kind

946
00:54:54,600 --> 00:54:59,440
Speaker 1: in their criticisms, just because I think absolutely you should

947
00:54:59,480 --> 00:55:02,000
Speaker 1: you know, rate the point that you it could be

948
00:55:02,040 --> 00:55:04,400
Speaker 1: a young girl who really doesn't know or has like

949
00:55:04,440 --> 00:55:07,920
Speaker 1: really struggling with some something. Um, So I always keep

950
00:55:07,920 --> 00:55:11,680
Speaker 1: that in mind. And I do worry about again, it's

951
00:55:11,719 --> 00:55:13,680
Speaker 1: it's gotten way better, but I do worry about like

952
00:55:14,000 --> 00:55:16,920
Speaker 1: the messages that you can get if you accidentally, if

953
00:55:16,920 --> 00:55:19,160
Speaker 1: you find a bad fan fiction, it can stay with you.

954
00:55:19,280 --> 00:55:22,440
Speaker 1: It can it can haunt you. And that's why tagging

955
00:55:22,520 --> 00:55:25,080
Speaker 1: is so important. That's why it's so important. And also

956
00:55:25,200 --> 00:55:28,759
Speaker 1: like to mind the tags. If I've I've read some

957
00:55:28,800 --> 00:55:32,400
Speaker 1: authors who are like, look if you if if this

958
00:55:32,480 --> 00:55:34,640
Speaker 1: tag and you know you can't handle it, please don't

959
00:55:34,640 --> 00:55:38,440
Speaker 1: really like please don't, please, don't. I'm trying to help you.

960
00:55:38,560 --> 00:55:41,200
Speaker 1: I'm trying to think about you. And that's something else

961
00:55:41,200 --> 00:55:44,239
Speaker 1: I've seen that's interesting lately is up for when I

962
00:55:44,440 --> 00:55:45,920
Speaker 1: when I was going, I felt like you had to

963
00:55:47,239 --> 00:55:50,399
Speaker 1: like say, I'm writing fan fiction for constructive criticism because

964
00:55:50,400 --> 00:55:51,960
Speaker 1: it's I want to be a better writer, which a

965
00:55:52,000 --> 00:55:53,920
Speaker 1: lot of people still do, and that's great. But now

966
00:55:53,960 --> 00:55:56,120
Speaker 1: some people have said, like, I don't want any criticism.

967
00:55:56,200 --> 00:55:57,839
Speaker 1: I'm doing this for fun. If you don't like it,

968
00:55:57,880 --> 00:56:02,160
Speaker 1: you can get kind of like you're like, look, this

969
00:56:02,200 --> 00:56:04,960
Speaker 1: is supposed to be the safe space and y'all all

970
00:56:10,200 --> 00:56:13,239
Speaker 1: if you don't just move on. Yes, yes, but it's

971
00:56:13,280 --> 00:56:15,480
Speaker 1: just funny because it used to be you've had to

972
00:56:15,520 --> 00:56:17,600
Speaker 1: defend your why you were writing fan fiction, and now

973
00:56:17,640 --> 00:56:21,000
Speaker 1: it's become very much like this is just for fun. Um.

974
00:56:21,040 --> 00:56:22,360
Speaker 1: You know, if you want to leave a comment, just

975
00:56:22,360 --> 00:56:24,120
Speaker 1: don't be mean about it because I'm really not looking

976
00:56:24,160 --> 00:56:28,359
Speaker 1: to improve and that's just gonna invest my you tell

977
00:56:28,440 --> 00:56:30,840
Speaker 1: me I'm a terrible writer. But yes, people are in

978
00:56:30,880 --> 00:56:33,000
Speaker 1: my experience very open about the tax like they want

979
00:56:33,040 --> 00:56:36,120
Speaker 1: to get that right. But yeah, Fantish communities are far

980
00:56:36,200 --> 00:56:39,719
Speaker 1: from a utopia and fiction is so different there, especially

981
00:56:39,760 --> 00:56:43,120
Speaker 1: like little sex that are pretty problematic. UM. We see

982
00:56:43,160 --> 00:56:46,400
Speaker 1: bleed over with issues UM from our entertainment at large.

983
00:56:46,440 --> 00:56:50,080
Speaker 1: They're like a prioritizing at the trauma of white characters.

984
00:56:50,640 --> 00:56:53,759
Speaker 1: There's some really harmful and toxic content and behavior in

985
00:56:53,800 --> 00:56:59,960
Speaker 1: the space and that should always be called out. But overall,

986
00:57:00,040 --> 00:57:02,760
Speaker 1: like I said, I've been It's been almost twenty years

987
00:57:02,800 --> 00:57:06,279
Speaker 1: and I've really seen it change, and I've seen it

988
00:57:06,320 --> 00:57:10,239
Speaker 1: become a more positive in support of space where people

989
00:57:10,239 --> 00:57:14,239
Speaker 1: are really thinking about others and and and themselves um,

990
00:57:14,280 --> 00:57:17,160
Speaker 1: which is great, Which is great, And I love this

991
00:57:17,200 --> 00:57:19,480
Speaker 1: idea that can be this tool for activism and having

992
00:57:19,480 --> 00:57:22,520
Speaker 1: these conversations. I really love the book. If it wasn't clear,

993
00:57:22,520 --> 00:57:24,080
Speaker 1: I know it was really quote heavy, but trust me,

994
00:57:24,120 --> 00:57:28,160
Speaker 1: I cut out a butt I did. I did. I'm like,

995
00:57:28,240 --> 00:57:30,360
Speaker 1: let's just read the whole book. Also, I really want

996
00:57:30,360 --> 00:57:32,400
Speaker 1: to come back and talk about like a bio now

997
00:57:32,480 --> 00:57:34,720
Speaker 1: because I really have a lot more thoughts after reading

998
00:57:34,720 --> 00:57:38,960
Speaker 1: this book than I did before. But today is not

999
00:57:39,040 --> 00:57:41,640
Speaker 1: that day. If you would like to get the book,

1000
00:57:41,960 --> 00:57:43,920
Speaker 1: we recommend it. You can find it that it is

1001
00:57:43,960 --> 00:57:47,800
Speaker 1: available now. UM And as always, we love getting suggestions

1002
00:57:47,880 --> 00:57:50,800
Speaker 1: for you at our next book pick should be. You

1003
00:57:50,840 --> 00:57:52,680
Speaker 1: can email the Stuff I du mom Stuff at ihart

1004
00:57:52,760 --> 00:57:54,480
Speaker 1: meia dot com. You can find us on Twitter at

1005
00:57:54,480 --> 00:57:56,680
Speaker 1: mom Stuff Podcasts or Instagram and stuff I've Never Told

1006
00:57:56,720 --> 00:58:00,120
Speaker 1: You Thanks. It's always to our super producer Christina You.

1007
00:58:00,680 --> 00:58:02,960
Speaker 1: Thanks to you for listening. Top Onder told the Protection

1008
00:58:03,040 --> 00:58:04,880
Speaker 1: I Hire Radio for more podcast on my heart Radio

1009
00:58:04,880 --> 00:58:06,960
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1010
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