Speaker 1: Golf is the thing. Anything in golf that doesn't change,
Speaker 1: anything that changes the best in playing? Does this man
Speaker 1: a one time winner on the PGA Tour? The point
Speaker 1: Alan is he didn't go Hollywood. You need a fourth
Speaker 1: Before we get to the episode, we should tip our
Speaker 1: caps to echo our corporate sponsors here. And of course
Speaker 1: Lydia Co the New World Number one is a long
Speaker 1: time Echo ambassador. Michael, do you do you know my
Speaker 1: affection for Lydia and I share it? Just a charming
Speaker 1: person and an outstanding golfer. You've done her far better
Speaker 1: than I. What can you tell us about her? Well?
Speaker 1: I still have her hat from the Olympics in Rio
Speaker 1: is his gorgeous New Zealand hat, and asked her I
Speaker 1: could keep it. She said yes. But one time I
Speaker 1: was talking to her, I said, where does your power
Speaker 1: come from? She says, it's from the ground. You know,
Speaker 1: It's like a really old school thought. And she has
Speaker 1: beautiful footwork. And I always you're seeing the club and
Speaker 1: she's like she's dancing. And as I'm as I'm observing this,
Speaker 1: I always noticed her her Echo biome shoes like they
Speaker 1: just seem to give her superpowers. Have you observed anything
Speaker 1: along those lines. Well, you know what the great teachers say,
Speaker 1: there's only one thing that connects you to the ground
Speaker 1: in this game, and that's your They don't say your
Speaker 1: echo shoes, but in this case it is her echo shoes.
Speaker 1: So that's pretty cool. The secret to Lydia Ko's success
Speaker 1: along with many other talents. But she's wearing the right
Speaker 1: footwears all right back to need a fourth Okay, so
Speaker 1: fun guests today. He uh, it's a hey, has one
Speaker 1: on the European Tour professional golf, has one on the
Speaker 1: europe and two, has one in Asia, has one professional
Speaker 1: golf tournaments in Australia, and it's currently I think you
Speaker 1: guys know who this is. But Um ranked by Today's
Speaker 1: Golf and Magazine a seventy nine most influential person in golf.
Speaker 1: Um one behind one behind one behind um Alan Actually,
Speaker 1: well is not committed the entire list to memory, you know,
Speaker 1: and had a tattooed on my forearm. That makes it easier.
Speaker 1: But Gulf Coast architect Great Rota, one of the more
Speaker 1: intelligent voices in golf, Well, this gets easier, Jeff, because
Speaker 1: we know about your your design history and your friendships
Speaker 1: and is this person the tournament director of the sand
Speaker 1: Belt Classic, your founder, very very involved in the sand
Speaker 1: Belt invitation. That would be one Mike Clayton. Clayton, welcome,
Speaker 1: thank you. Interesting. What's been going on? What do you uh,
Speaker 1: what have you been doing? Um? Well, it's January and Melbourne,
Speaker 1: so nothing happens, right. So I've been watching a bit
Speaker 1: of tennis. I went to the key On Classic Tennis
Speaker 1: Tolman last week and watched Andy Murray play dam at All.
Speaker 1: And I watched Taylor Fitz, big tall guys. I was
Speaker 1: sitting with someone I knew about tennis. Taylor Fitz, that
Speaker 1: American kid was from California, right was playing Alexei Popper
Speaker 1: in Australian Russian. Australian who was I'm gonna said, this
Speaker 1: is a future of tennis. Six ft five long limbs,
Speaker 1: just smashing it. So, um, it's kind of I always
Speaker 1: liked watching tennis. It's fun. I watched Keon was the
Speaker 1: first place I heard an American accent. And I heard
Speaker 1: Billy jen King say grass when I was like nine sixty.
Speaker 1: I was not knowing sixty four. I've never heard an
Speaker 1: American accent because we we didn't have a TV at home.
Speaker 1: So Billy Jane King was the first American accent I
Speaker 1: ever heard of Kong. My mom took me there and
Speaker 1: like the mid sixties probably, So I went there a
Speaker 1: lot and watched the Strand Open. There are a lot
Speaker 1: of watching You can play corners, and so that's what
Speaker 1: I've been doing, really, and playing golf in s Andrew's Beach,
Speaker 1: which is always fun. Page plays golf every day usually
Speaker 1: still every day. Yeah, most days. I mean even if
Speaker 1: I go and play five or six holes, you know,
Speaker 1: jumped the back fence and Sandraw's Beach and duck out
Speaker 1: in the twelth hold and play five or six holes, yeah,
Speaker 1: because I just I've got an old set of ram
Speaker 1: golden Ram irons stuck in the bag last week, which
Speaker 1: is kind of They're fun Tom Watson style Tom Watson
Speaker 1: grinder with a square toes and high toes. Yeah. So
Speaker 1: I've been playing with them, which has been interesting. Three
Speaker 1: I like crop of three irons. Good. They weren't that
Speaker 1: hard hard to hit that? No they're not. I mean
Speaker 1: you smash it. No, they're not that hard to hit
Speaker 1: it already. And all this modern stuff just dumbs us
Speaker 1: down right and you think in some ways big head
Speaker 1: of drivers that are just like, I mean, you hit
Speaker 1: a good driver to say, yes, so what But someone said,
Speaker 1: what you're driving it? Well, I said if I was,
Speaker 1: if I was seeing these drives with my old Cleveland Classic,
Speaker 1: I would be driving it. Well, this doesn't count. This
Speaker 1: is cheating hitting it with this thing. It's true. But
Speaker 1: if you saw a four handicap or a tin handicap
Speaker 1: hit a modern driver next to Rory mcarrowy hitting the driver,
Speaker 1: you still realize there's a fast skill gap there, like
Speaker 1: it's still quite hard to drive. Oh yeah, that's just
Speaker 1: it's ridiculous. How sure I hit it. I might play
Speaker 1: with these the old guys I play and I think
Speaker 1: I'm kind of a reasonable hitter. And I go and
Speaker 1: played with Lucas or you and they hit at a
Speaker 1: hundred yards past me. It's like, it's ridiculous. Yeah, anyway,
Speaker 1: So that's what I've been doing. Good fun. January is
Speaker 1: always great in Melbourne because it's tennis and the weather
Speaker 1: is nice and it's kind of every one's a holidays
Speaker 1: and the golf courses are great because it's the best
Speaker 1: time of the year for the golf course. So it's
Speaker 1: and people visit the people down. Lawrence Donnegan was down
Speaker 1: with his son playing the Master with the amateurs, so
Speaker 1: we played a bit and in fact he came down
Speaker 1: for Christmas, so we played the Sand Belt Tom and
Speaker 1: then stay for Christmas and then played Southern and I
Speaker 1: had to go back to school, which was unfortunate. Probably
Speaker 1: better in Melbourne and Scotland and January. Um so more importantly,
Speaker 1: how good a caddy with Michael Bamberger. Well, he never
Speaker 1: caddy for me, but um, it was always it always
Speaker 1: seemed very competent. You know, I think there were um
Speaker 1: which has already had to be right unless you're a squirrel.
Speaker 1: I mean, I mean squirrel cave for me quite a lot.
Speaker 1: Then he came for you obviously for years. But there
Speaker 1: are a few guys like that who were great. But um,
Speaker 1: if you weren't in that great category, then competent, nice
Speaker 1: guy who turned up and was arrived was already needed.
Speaker 1: Right for the listeners set the scene? I mean, what year,
Speaker 1: what tour like? When did you get a glimpse of bamburger?
Speaker 1: You know as a looper? Is this really necessary? I'm
Speaker 1: trying to remember. I'm pretty sure because Steve Elkington and
Speaker 1: I traveled a bit that year he played in Europe.
Speaker 1: In fact, we were we were rooming together in Sweden
Speaker 1: watching the We didn't get out on Sunday night and
Speaker 1: we were watching the the Bob Toy Bunker shot it
Speaker 1: and that was six It was am I right, it
Speaker 1: was a Bob. We watched the Bob Twin Bunker shot
Speaker 1: against Greg Norman in a hotel room in Foster Borow
Speaker 1: and Melmo and Swade were playing it Falster anyway, So um,
Speaker 1: I think I remember Michael, it wasn't there long. You
Speaker 1: were riding the Green Road home right when you were
Speaker 1: cutting for facts and you came to Europe for a bit,
Speaker 1: and were you in then in five Saint George as
Speaker 1: I was yeah, yeah, ready six five right, yeah eighty five?
Speaker 1: Yeah you qualified synt Ports now, I believe it or not.
Speaker 1: I was the exempt. I've made the top twenty on
Speaker 1: alisy Ere before, so I was come on totally there
Speaker 1: the one time. I wasn't example very often. But so
Speaker 1: who did you work for there? Jimmy Hall who was
Speaker 1: an American. He was on his honeymo when he was
Speaker 1: twenty two and Royal synt Ports is you guys must
Speaker 1: know it. Uh, you're Jeff great golf course. Uh. We're
Speaker 1: trying not to use the F word in a in
Speaker 1: abusive ways here, but I have to share one abusing thing. Uh.
Speaker 1: One of the years they were playing at some ports
Speaker 1: I think it was here, Darren Clark one so many
Speaker 1: years later, whenever that was. And Mike Donald's, you guys know,
Speaker 1: was a great friend of mine, and we were playing
Speaker 1: at Saint Ports and Mike never played there before. In
Speaker 1: Mike's port fan but in a very humorous, in appropriate way,
Speaker 1: he says, I don't know what the funk they got
Speaker 1: next door here, but there's no fucking way it's harder
Speaker 1: than this fucking golf course. Do you guys remember the caddy, Lauren,
Speaker 1: what you would I don't think you took Alan might not,
Speaker 1: but Mike definitely. Lauren Duncan of course, Yeah we still um,
Speaker 1: we still yeah, we still message each other a lot. Uh.
Speaker 1: In I was saying, I think the checkers in it
Speaker 1: was a little motel right on the same ports course,
Speaker 1: and then went out one night for for evening golf
Speaker 1: and Dave mcneally Lauren Duncan were on the course a
Speaker 1: three old road again and again. You know, literally stays
Speaker 1: light till mont Derby, almost probably ten o'clock at night.
Speaker 1: And I've been around a lot, and but for whatever reason,
Speaker 1: I've only seen Lauren Duncan once in my entire life,
Speaker 1: and it was that evening in a Royal Simports. So
Speaker 1: just last year I was moved to right to Lauren
Speaker 1: and asked him if he remember that evening. Dave McNeilly,
Speaker 1: I've seen hundred plus times since then, and I said,
Speaker 1: by any chance, to remember that evening and he said,
Speaker 1: not only remember the evening. We started the evening at
Speaker 1: we started the afternoon at Royal St George's. Amon Darcy
Speaker 1: gave mcneili and me a lift from Royal St George's
Speaker 1: to our caravan park and we took this back road
Speaker 1: and you guys might know the back road. It's very
Speaker 1: rural and Amon Darcy stopped the car to look at
Speaker 1: a cow with a large head. It's like, how random
Speaker 1: can't you be that I selected one night of thousands
Speaker 1: and thousands, said you remember that a Dorsey stopped the
Speaker 1: car to look at a calibl lark. But I shared
Speaker 1: the story because Mike especially would appreciate that really was
Speaker 1: that little story probably captures a lot about the European
Speaker 1: Tour because Duncan cared there are a lot he was
Speaker 1: for obviously standard in that. Remember he dressed up in
Speaker 1: the plus fours in the bow tie when he came
Speaker 1: for Stadler in three, when he played with Watson the
Speaker 1: last day, and I mean, Dunk was great. He came
Speaker 1: for me a lot. He was a really interesting guy.
Speaker 1: I was told him, you should have been a school teacher,
Speaker 1: had been an amazing school teacher because he was really
Speaker 1: smart and he just had a great personality and I
Speaker 1: could explain stuff and had a great view of the world.
Speaker 1: And he came from it. Was a terrific guy. And
Speaker 1: he's living in he's getting ready to play golf. Last
Speaker 1: week when I was messaging him, he's living in down
Speaker 1: in Scottsdale. So um, he's going. Well done. I wish
Speaker 1: he came more, but he's kind of done with it.
Speaker 1: He's fed up with it. I mean that that's such
Speaker 1: a romanticized era in Gulf kind of the eighties. On
Speaker 1: the European Tour, you had all all these Hall of
Speaker 1: famers coming through and the Ryder Cut became, you know,
Speaker 1: the super Bowl of golf and it still feels like
Speaker 1: it was a little wild and wooly out there. I mean,
Speaker 1: was it as much fun Mike to be a part
Speaker 1: of it as as it is for those of us
Speaker 1: to kind of look back and try and and try
Speaker 1: and recreat it and imagine what it was. It was.
Speaker 1: You don't realize that at the time it was luck
Speaker 1: the Australian Tour at the same time when Greg was
Speaker 1: playing in the tour was flying and the Graham Marsh
Speaker 1: and David Graham and I'm share are lots of great
Speaker 1: place down here. But yeah, Europe was um, I'm gonna
Speaker 1: trouble was much better organized. By the mid eighties, Randy
Speaker 1: Fox was Randy had everything pretty organized. We would turn
Speaker 1: up a terminal one that you know, six thirty on
Speaker 1: Tuesday morning, British wise and fly to somewhere Stockholm, madrad Ord,
Speaker 1: Paris and pick us up in a bust and tuck
Speaker 1: us the golf course when to play a practice around
Speaker 1: and go to the hotel. And it was fine. It
Speaker 1: was We didn't know it was pretty organized, but it was.
Speaker 1: Looking back, it was great fun. And you don't realized
Speaker 1: how great that era was until you look back on
Speaker 1: it and when you had you know, savvy fellow lil
Speaker 1: Anger was he Monty a little later a Lazabel just
Speaker 1: to touch later. But there are amazing players. It was
Speaker 1: a great era and lots of Sam Tyrens and Mark
Speaker 1: James and Ken Brown and Darcy and you know that
Speaker 1: the second tier in Europe was it was a it
Speaker 1: was a busloader Gordon Brandon Jr. Because we were really
Speaker 1: good players. So it was a fun area to play.
Speaker 1: And the courses were we play. We're playing Portmarik and
Speaker 1: Walton Heath and Stangingdale and Shawn Ty and Foster bro
Speaker 1: and put it the Hero in Madrid, so we put
Speaker 1: a lot of good golf courses too. So it was
Speaker 1: what was you know, no one apart from the real
Speaker 1: stars made any great great amounts of money. It was
Speaker 1: a great ear to be a part of. And not
Speaker 1: just great players, but like big personalities right like these
Speaker 1: are these are Hall of Fame talkers and racing tours
Speaker 1: and I mean it was was the camaraderie you know
Speaker 1: that uh palpable. I mean, obviously we're trying to beat
Speaker 1: each other, but it seems like you kind of moved
Speaker 1: into caravan and there was there was there was a
Speaker 1: lot more hanging out and a lot more together and
Speaker 1: it's yeah, there was. I mean the Australians all we
Speaker 1: were boringly. We all finished up buying houses and Bagshot
Speaker 1: just just ten minutes down the road from Sangandale. But
Speaker 1: that wasn't until the late eighties really, So in the
Speaker 1: mid eighties when Michael was there first, we were just
Speaker 1: on the road. Every week. We would go to the
Speaker 1: Holiday Inn in London. We would check in at the
Speaker 1: South Africains John Bland and David Frost and Bioki and
Speaker 1: Petter Fowler and Nobelow and Turner. We were just checking
Speaker 1: into the Holiday And in London on Sunday night and
Speaker 1: go out and it on Monday Tuesday, and so we
Speaker 1: so no one really took a week off because what
Speaker 1: else were you going to do? So I played in
Speaker 1: I laugh at these guys who were tired. After three
Speaker 1: weeks we started in the Tasmanian Open in Milton, Tasmania.
Speaker 1: Obviously in January I played twenty three out of twenty
Speaker 1: four weeks in seventeen countries, because um, what else were
Speaker 1: we going to do? So we went four or five
Speaker 1: in Australia, then straight to Asia and went from Hong Kong, Singapore, Thailand, Indonesia, India, Taiwan, career,
Speaker 1: Japan and then straight to a week off when stayed
Speaker 1: with Jamie crowin San Diego, when Tom and Jamie was
Speaker 1: still living in San Diego and Cobra was well, Cobra
Speaker 1: was four, so Coba was sort of just getting going
Speaker 1: then really you know that he was making some great clubs,
Speaker 1: and so we had a week in San Diego and
Speaker 1: and then we went to Europe and started playing over there.
Speaker 1: That was Jamie's first year in Europe, so it was
Speaker 1: um and we just kept playing. So it was kind
Speaker 1: of wild, really, Jeff, do you I feel like you're
Speaker 1: born in the wrong era because I kind of picture you,
Speaker 1: you know, as one of a throwback guy who would
Speaker 1: have loved Barnes drolling around and playing with the old
Speaker 1: equipment on its wild and wily courses like H twenty
Speaker 1: four doesn't sound any fun, um, but I played Europe
Speaker 1: late nineties and you could see what it was like.
Speaker 1: It's still kind of was that. Uh, it was just
Speaker 1: a group, the players and the caddies and even the
Speaker 1: equipment reps and the rules officials. We all just you're
Speaker 1: all in a foreign country together, right, So you're all
Speaker 1: together and you just everyone stay in the same hotel.
Speaker 1: There'll be a caddy hotel and a player hotel and
Speaker 1: all the players. You just go down to the bar
Speaker 1: and the hotel at some point at six thirty or something, fine,
Speaker 1: three or four people and go out to dinner. It
Speaker 1: might be different people every night, So within three months
Speaker 1: you know the whole two and you're sort of part
Speaker 1: of it. It's sort of probably why the Ryder Cup
Speaker 1: has been so strong from the European side, because they're
Speaker 1: just together. You know, that's not a team, it's not
Speaker 1: a tour of individuals. At least it wasn't then. Um,
Speaker 1: it was just great fun. You know, you'd land on
Speaker 1: the plane, you'd fly from Heathrow, There'll be fifty people
Speaker 1: on the plane, players and caddies and you landed zero
Speaker 1: Airport or something and going to Crown and there'd be
Speaker 1: a coach bus trying to take us to the course
Speaker 1: two hours. And once people are on the bus, especially
Speaker 1: the caddies, they're like just telling the driver, who's some
Speaker 1: Swiss guy, just go, just go. Everyone's here, just go.
Speaker 1: So if you didn't get your bags first, you could.
Speaker 1: The bus would just go and you would just be
Speaker 1: stuck two hours away from where you were going to go.
Speaker 1: Stuff like that. Um, and you're getting sixty people on
Speaker 1: a forty seat bus and people are sitting on golf bags,
Speaker 1: and you know, there's this really what I wanted to do,
Speaker 1: But it was just incredible fun. Um. As good as
Speaker 1: it is to get handed the keys of a brand
Speaker 1: new car every week and stay on your own and
Speaker 1: do your own thing, it's way more fun to do
Speaker 1: it the old schoolway. So yeah, it would have been
Speaker 1: brilliant fun. But I'll take my era. Yeah, in Switzerland,
Speaker 1: I got. I hated that golf course. Just the most
Speaker 1: beautiful place in the world. That view from the seventh
Speaker 1: hole is probably the best, most beautiful view in golf
Speaker 1: looking down the mountains. I don't know how many miles
Speaker 1: you can see from from that. To you, it must
Speaker 1: be tens of miles down that, but one of the
Speaker 1: worst holes we've ever seen. It's just a heart miserable.
Speaker 1: I hated that golf course. Um. I always about to
Speaker 1: go there and not play, just go there for the weekend,
Speaker 1: just not playing like you remember the remember the course
Speaker 1: southside of Florence. I think it was called I remember, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I do, yeah, yeah, Colin burn caddy for me. That
Speaker 1: who was Colin was a great friend of Duncan's. That
Speaker 1: Colin Kadi for Goosen when he won both his opens.
Speaker 1: But remember Colin coming for me there. But great ice
Speaker 1: cream in Florence. So it was an US weight great
Speaker 1: os cream. Yeah, I think to your point, but both
Speaker 1: jump it and Mike, you know, uh, of course all
Speaker 1: four of us missed, you know, the tour as the
Speaker 1: tour in the US when it was really the tour,
Speaker 1: but European in Europe in the eighties, Mike, when you
Speaker 1: got definitely was really a tour. And what you're describing
Speaker 1: is is golf without an entourage. The entourage was the tour,
Speaker 1: and all the tour was was you know, John Cardmore
Speaker 1: and fifty caddies and ninety players. Uh, that's about it.
Speaker 1: A couple of equipment guys being had an equipment guy.
Speaker 1: But it was and you know, the currency changed every week,
Speaker 1: and it felt like I've been interesting to talk to
Speaker 1: the guys who played in the sixties in Europe in
Speaker 1: the seventies. But I guess Jack was a big style.
Speaker 1: But it felt like, yeah, we were playing with some
Speaker 1: of the best players in the world, which was probably
Speaker 1: the first time that had happened in Europe. Sevy and
Speaker 1: transformed that tour through his presence, and you know that
Speaker 1: those other guys fell down and Langer and as great
Speaker 1: as they were, got dragged along by Sevy because he
Speaker 1: was he was just the guy every weekend. It was
Speaker 1: everyone loves Sevy. I mean, he was amazing and it
Speaker 1: was he I'm sure he had his moments, his appearance,
Speaker 1: money fights, and he's you could get a bit cranky
Speaker 1: at times, but you know, there were how do you
Speaker 1: imagine how much pressure was on him to being the
Speaker 1: main guy there. Not every didn't play every week, but
Speaker 1: every week he played, he was the main guy there,
Speaker 1: like Tiger was, you know, expected to win. You know,
Speaker 1: you can't miss the cut because all the people are
Speaker 1: gonna turn up on the weekend and what you play.
Speaker 1: So there's a lot of pressures on him that we
Speaker 1: didn't really appreciate, probably, but he handed it brilliantly and
Speaker 1: it was such a great player to watch. I mean, God,
Speaker 1: I wish I could see him play again. What's your
Speaker 1: best Sevy story? There were lots of seventy stories. I mean,
Speaker 1: the best service to there his shots, just watching his shots.
Speaker 1: But um, we were, you know, we were in a car.
Speaker 1: Not that sappens very often, but we're in a car.
Speaker 1: One was going back to the airport or something. We
Speaker 1: just finished at the same time. We jumped out a
Speaker 1: car and at the airport and I asked him, so,
Speaker 1: what was the best shot you ever hit? Without even
Speaker 1: thinking about He said the chip at Letham. I said,
Speaker 1: I said, what about the three wood in the Ryder Cup?
Speaker 1: He said, the chip was for me. That was for
Speaker 1: the team. The chip was for me, which was you know,
Speaker 1: but that is the coolest chip ever though, like, yeah,
Speaker 1: well he played it looks like it's going in. It
Speaker 1: just didn't look that difficult and he made it Cain'd
Speaker 1: of look easy. But it was in long grass and
Speaker 1: it was a bit grainy, and it was just and
Speaker 1: it was the Open, you know, it was the last
Speaker 1: hole of the Open. He's Mr Green and he needs
Speaker 1: to get up and down. He just and he hit
Speaker 1: it so quickly walked up there, grabbed the club and
Speaker 1: just said the most beautiful chip. It was a great shot.
Speaker 1: But I remember him playing it wentworth I was an amateur.
Speaker 1: I was over there. I wasn't even playing the Torrent.
Speaker 1: We're over playing the British Amlar. We went out to
Speaker 1: watch the Martini. It was a cold, dark, miserable day,
Speaker 1: thirty six hours the last day because I lost the
Speaker 1: day for rain. And the tenth that went was that
Speaker 1: kind of you know, Jeff, the part three were hit over.
Speaker 1: You either go left on the left side of the
Speaker 1: green and put across, or you go over the pine
Speaker 1: trees at the flag. And it was back then it
Speaker 1: was a three iron shot, and most of the guys
Speaker 1: I've watched were just hitting it left and putting fifty
Speaker 1: ft across the green. A couple of went over the trees,
Speaker 1: and Steady just aimed left. There's slight. He sliced his
Speaker 1: three I like thirty yards for twenty yards around here,
Speaker 1: and just sliced around the trees to about fifteen ft.
Speaker 1: It was like, who does that? I mean, it was
Speaker 1: just the most amazing shot. I mean it was just
Speaker 1: like how did you even one? How did you think
Speaker 1: of it? And having thought of it, what made you
Speaker 1: even want to try it? And then how did you
Speaker 1: pull it off? I was like that shot over the wall.
Speaker 1: Usually that Plark in Switzerland. Jeff, Yeah, I mean we were.
Speaker 1: We were in the player's tent off the eighth green,
Speaker 1: and Billy Foster came in and he said, I've just
Speaker 1: seen the best shot I've ever seen. Of course, because
Speaker 1: they missed it on the TV. They got the t
Speaker 1: shot and and he when he chipped it in. But
Speaker 1: I went back there the next year. I said, Billy,
Speaker 1: was that really where the ball was? He said, that's
Speaker 1: where the ball was. Like, it's unimaginable that shot he
Speaker 1: hit there Nicholuse. Billy walked out in the fairway and
Speaker 1: he looked in the bag, assuming that he had the sandwich.
Speaker 1: He said, my god, the sandwich was still in the bag.
Speaker 1: He's got the wedge. Just just a ridiculous shot he
Speaker 1: hit there. Beat Barry Lane. Sorry, Barry Lane beat him,
Speaker 1: Which was How was that? That was kind of out
Speaker 1: of nowhere? Berry Lane dying a couple of weeks ago.
Speaker 1: That was such a shock. Well, he was a He
Speaker 1: was a cool player too, and um, yeah, there are
Speaker 1: too many Sevy stories. Yeah, it was funny. We were
Speaker 1: playing yesterday, was playing with a friend of mine who
Speaker 1: I've got a five wood in the bag and we're
Speaker 1: talking about hybrids, and he was saying how much he
Speaker 1: hated hybrids. And I said, this beautiful ping forward used
Speaker 1: to hit it really well, and Sevy looked at it
Speaker 1: and just kind of shook his head, said, you can't
Speaker 1: play with that? If I was gone, had to hand
Speaker 1: on the backs, gone, what an idiot? And when yeah,
Speaker 1: just because I can't one, I was like, you said,
Speaker 1: he doesn't mean I can't eat a forward? Yeah, pin four.
Speaker 1: It was just a look of disdain, like, how can
Speaker 1: you play with that thing? God? Anyway, that's a sad story.
Speaker 1: But yeah, I can imagine the withering judgment. Yeah, well
Speaker 1: I mean, I mean, yeah, yeah, those I'm playing with
Speaker 1: Sevy and Greg hunting dog on. Yeah, the six that
Speaker 1: hanging out Jeff, which which no one ever hit for
Speaker 1: two long pat five kind of uphill second shot had
Speaker 1: the bounds on the right and up that out of
Speaker 1: bounds really in play, but that was narrow. You could
Speaker 1: make eight there in a in a heartbeat if you
Speaker 1: hit it in the trees with your T shirt or
Speaker 1: your second shot. Me it was just a drive and
Speaker 1: a bunch of three on up the fire and Sevan
Speaker 1: Greek at these one or two or three on something.
Speaker 1: They's an enormous second shot long and they both flew
Speaker 1: it on the green. Yeah, I'd be like it was
Speaker 1: just like these guys are a different level, which was
Speaker 1: that was another good Yeah, that was an interesting seventy
Speaker 1: story eighty three Masters Australian Masters Sevi and Greg and
Speaker 1: Sevees driving it like an arrow. I mean that's a narrow,
Speaker 1: tight driving course. He snap hooked it off the hit
Speaker 1: a tree and bounced out the first round. But that
Speaker 1: was the only bad driver I remember him hitting. Called
Speaker 1: Manuel Ramas was cutting for him and run the Portuguese
Speaker 1: Open about five or ten years before this. So Sevier
Speaker 1: just brought him down for to cattying for him for
Speaker 1: a one off week and he was playing beautifully but
Speaker 1: just not doing anything. He just bumping around. He hit
Speaker 1: the three wood into the tenth that hanging on the
Speaker 1: end of the wind three would just blisted this thing
Speaker 1: to about six ft. Just a beautiful shot through the
Speaker 1: wind and Mr part and I said to Ramas, it's
Speaker 1: not putting that well is he? He said, nobody will
Speaker 1: be by Augusta, which was three when he won by four,
Speaker 1: I think we're chipping at the last holder beat Watson
Speaker 1: by four shots. You know he was he was that
Speaker 1: was kind of peaks heavy and it was and he
Speaker 1: came down. It was playing Australia every year. He first
Speaker 1: came down here for the when he first came down
Speaker 1: for the seventy six Australian Open at the Australian when
Speaker 1: Jeff the ninth hold used to be the eighteen and
Speaker 1: as an apocryple story probably true that Kerry Packer, who
Speaker 1: was who was the richest guy in Australia, who owned
Speaker 1: charl nine, who transformed cricket, and his ChIL nine was
Speaker 1: the first in the Australian Open, was the first torment
Speaker 1: to televise every hole, all seventy two holes was on
Speaker 1: TV starting in seventy five or seventy six. Anyway, Savy
Speaker 1: was down on that way down the bottom of the
Speaker 1: hill there on the Monday, hitting bunker shots out of
Speaker 1: the butt out of the bunk on the on the
Speaker 1: on the what was the alienh Green, nother ninth Green.
Speaker 1: He was practicing bunker shots, hitting four or five balls,
Speaker 1: and Packard had no idea who he was, and he
Speaker 1: ballowed from the top of the hill or screaming at
Speaker 1: this guy, dare you betting bunker. There's things that are
Speaker 1: practiced fair away and Sev six and went home first round.
Speaker 1: What he played two rounds, But yeah, no one spoke
Speaker 1: to severy like that, no matter who, and neither of
Speaker 1: them had any idea who the other was. So here
Speaker 1: was Sevy getting screamed at by some big fat guy
Speaker 1: up on the first team from fifty yards away bellowing
Speaker 1: at him for hitting father six balls out of the bunker.
Speaker 1: That wasn't gonna work anyway. Sevy came back in seventy
Speaker 1: eight to play at Raw Melbourne. He played Row Melbourne
Speaker 1: every year the five years the Australian PJ was at
Speaker 1: Row Melbourne, which was kind of his course. I mean,
Speaker 1: Jeff obviously lives on the course, but Mackenzie built that
Speaker 1: course for seven You didn't know it, but he um
Speaker 1: he built that course for Sevy. It was just gave
Speaker 1: him space but concrete, hard greens and much more difficult
Speaker 1: shots from the wrong side of the fairway. But if
Speaker 1: you could play from the wrong side of the failure
Speaker 1: and hit a great enough shot, you can still play
Speaker 1: the whole Yeah, you can still get it on the
Speaker 1: ground and get it somewhere near the pin and if
Speaker 1: you didn't then you he could get it up and down.
Speaker 1: So and it was you know, hard fast greens, and
Speaker 1: it was it was just made for him. That place
Speaker 1: more more southern Augusta even you know, that was Servy's place,
Speaker 1: and he I watched him play. I was going to
Speaker 1: caddy for him in because a friend of mine was
Speaker 1: his Ed Barner's agent in Australia, so he set up
Speaker 1: for me to caddy for him. But I had an
Speaker 1: exam on university exam on that Wednesday, on the day
Speaker 1: of the pro am, so I couldn't do it, which
Speaker 1: I should have just skipped the examles, of course you
Speaker 1: should have. That's the most that's the worst decision in
Speaker 1: golf history other than you know, Phil at Wing, other
Speaker 1: than to Phil at wingfoot but oh my god, so alright,
Speaker 1: so I puttished up watching him play pretty much every
Speaker 1: hole and then he was he finished third that that week.
Speaker 1: But Halo and one but and you couldn't get two
Speaker 1: more different games and Halo and then Sevy, I mean,
Speaker 1: just which was why that that last day at Letham
Speaker 1: was so great, you know, and just tearing his hair
Speaker 1: out of this guy hitting one fail away and beating him.
Speaker 1: Um he Savy came back every year for five years
Speaker 1: and he won there and one I think. But he
Speaker 1: just played that course beautifully. It's great. It was amazing
Speaker 1: to watch him play there. As you surely know you know.
Speaker 1: Link Soul is a clothing and a lifestyle brand. I've
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Speaker 1: So get involved. We're trying to have some fun. We
Speaker 1: also have to pay the bills here at the fire
Speaker 1: Pit Collective. So back to Night a Fourth like what
Speaker 1: We're what We're Norman and Sevy like together and have
Speaker 1: I played or have I just this paiper and I
Speaker 1: got along and you know, each represented a nation. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think I got on pretty well. I think, you know,
Speaker 1: Sevy helped Greg with his short gime when he first
Speaker 1: went to Europe, and that was think I had a
Speaker 1: lot of respect for each other's games. Sevy was much
Speaker 1: more interesting. Greg was obviously you know, I guess you's
Speaker 1: had better either, but Sevy was probably better with the rest.
Speaker 1: But um, yeah, they were the number one guys in
Speaker 1: their respective continents, really, and they carried the tour for
Speaker 1: you know, for a long time and made it really.
Speaker 1: I mean, they were the ones who dragged the people
Speaker 1: out to watch. But Sevy, there was much more joy
Speaker 1: about the way Sevy played, especially I was gonna say
Speaker 1: later on, I mean, there wasn't much joy in watching
Speaker 1: Sevy play the way he did when you were in Europe, Jeff.
Speaker 1: But Sevy played the game with much more joy than Greg.
Speaker 1: I think Greg always didn't look like he certainly the
Speaker 1: last eight or ten years he played in Australia. Seriously,
Speaker 1: he never looked like he loved playing here. He looked
Speaker 1: like he was always here under sufferance. But Sevy never
Speaker 1: looked like that. You know, he never lost his love
Speaker 1: for the game, even after the game fell out of
Speaker 1: love with him. Really, but you know, if you I
Speaker 1: think it always an interesting question would be if Sevy
Speaker 1: was on the first team, Greg was on the and
Speaker 1: see who would you go and watch and um, you
Speaker 1: know yeah Sevy and um, the same question with Tiger,
Speaker 1: And I think it's I've watched, I've seen I mean,
Speaker 1: you guys have seen him playing more than I have.
Speaker 1: But I watched Tiger play the last round at Best
Speaker 1: Page and in two thousand and two, the last two
Speaker 1: days of Hoylake and the President's Cup match against a
Speaker 1: Bans and it was like unforgettable golf. Really, Yeah, that's
Speaker 1: peak Tiger. Yeah yeah, if you had a well it
Speaker 1: was peak Tiger was two thousand and two to two
Speaker 1: thousand and nineteen, so I mean he was still that
Speaker 1: he was the best player at Ron Melburne. Yeah, no,
Speaker 1: that was moment he that was that was a magical week. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know to watch you know, yeah, I think you
Speaker 1: watched Sevy play nine and Tiger play nine, right, but um, yeah,
Speaker 1: that they were the two most compelling players to watch.
Speaker 1: The Sevy was much more charismatic than Tiger. I think
Speaker 1: it um both incredible players to watch, all right to
Speaker 1: modern times. Then talk modern was actually so Allen and
Speaker 1: Clate's UM Today's Golfer put out a most Influential Golf
Speaker 1: list plates are seventy nine. Chipnunk is more. You are
Speaker 1: more influential than Mike Clayton golf and you're actually both
Speaker 1: Donald Trump's eighties six, so you're beating him. That's hilarious.
Speaker 1: Well that's I mean, that's poppy cocks as something might say.
Speaker 1: I mean, and I didn't make the list, So you
Speaker 1: guys are clearly more influential than us. I clicked, you know,
Speaker 1: I clicked on that thing thing. This is gonna be
Speaker 1: another ridiculous list, not so, I was another word proves
Speaker 1: it's completely ridiculous. In factly, when ship Nunk Clayton UM,
Speaker 1: I think the next two would um, Jordan's speaking came Smith.
Speaker 1: So it was what it was. It was ridiculously it was.
Speaker 1: But I think your your influences being underrated because you've
Speaker 1: been a great oracle and talking about the modern game,
Speaker 1: you've uh your your your design work. I think is
Speaker 1: you know, you've been in at the forefront of kind
Speaker 1: of this more minimalists approach to the modern architecture like
Speaker 1: I would say you were. You should have been ranked higher, Mike,
Speaker 1: because you've you've become an important voice in the whole sports.
Speaker 1: So don't don't, don't, don't be too self deprecating. But
Speaker 1: I think you connect the generations like you probably you
Speaker 1: connect the old generation to the new generation because you
Speaker 1: never stopped playing and watching and reading and writing. And
Speaker 1: it's probably true. Yeah, there's other people who are just
Speaker 1: so romantic about the seventies and eighties like you were
Speaker 1: just talking about. But you've never been not passionate about
Speaker 1: the whole thing. So you've seen the whole thing change,
Speaker 1: and you can explain to these kids today what golf
Speaker 1: used to be like and connect it really well. You
Speaker 1: watched how much it changed. You know, it's changed. Um,
Speaker 1: it's changed a lot. You know. It's the biggest question
Speaker 1: that we're talking about the game. The game is fine,
Speaker 1: and we talk about golf. We talked about this live
Speaker 1: thing as if it's golf and it's only professional golfer
Speaker 1: is not golf at all. It's just it's not it's
Speaker 1: not even that important really, And how farther ball goes
Speaker 1: is not really that important for everyone except you know,
Speaker 1: the best the best players in the world. But it's
Speaker 1: important because you know, those courses were designed to test
Speaker 1: the best players in the more and they don't do
Speaker 1: that in a way that they are intended to do.
Speaker 1: It would be my argument. But so, you know, so
Speaker 1: that's a big question that lives things interesting. You know,
Speaker 1: um gol sid it's interesting as as an outsider to
Speaker 1: watch it all play out. Really certainly the live thing
Speaker 1: is well, I think we're all interested observers, really interesting
Speaker 1: to see, you know what, what's really going to happen
Speaker 1: with this? It's a game of politics and the game
Speaker 1: of bluff. Who's going to win? Is anyone going to win?
Speaker 1: Is everyone's gonna lose? You know? He is Pelly going
Speaker 1: to lose the court case? In a when's the court case? Jeff?
Speaker 1: A couple of weeks. These guys know better than me.
Speaker 1: It didn't. It's always been February. I never got an
Speaker 1: exact but yeah, so are we assuming that John Hagen
Speaker 1: argument that Keith Pelly's hoping he loses so that all
Speaker 1: the live guys can play in Europe? I don't know.
Speaker 1: It would have been an interesting it would have been
Speaker 1: an interesting approach for europe to just stay on their
Speaker 1: side the whole time. I don't know, Well, perhaps the
Speaker 1: easy way after them is to pretend to be fight them,
Speaker 1: but just hope they lose the case. And then it
Speaker 1: means that Westwood Poulter and Dustin Johnson if he wants
Speaker 1: to go and play the British pre Jack and don't
Speaker 1: play the Bridigese PGA, you know, and so all the
Speaker 1: live guys if they want, you can go and play
Speaker 1: in Europe. So that's gonna be fascinating to see how
Speaker 1: that plays out, because now the European Tour has this
Speaker 1: you know, strategic alliance and the PG. The PG Tour
Speaker 1: owns part of the European Tour, and you know they're
Speaker 1: supposed to be allies and all of this, and so
Speaker 1: it's I think you're right that that Pelly would love
Speaker 1: to have all those guys back. I mean, it doesn't
Speaker 1: help him to have a German Open without Martin Kahimer
Speaker 1: and stuff like that. But um, at the same time
Speaker 1: that you know, the PGA tour is helping to pay
Speaker 1: their bills now, so it's it's complicated. Yeah, that's why
Speaker 1: it's also interesting, really it's just fascinating to watch it.
Speaker 1: So and they're coming down here playing Adelaide, which will
Speaker 1: be I suspect the Australian version of the Live Golf
Speaker 1: will be the biggest version of it because we're so
Speaker 1: starved of watching the best players. We never see them, really,
Speaker 1: never see them on mass like Live is gonna bring
Speaker 1: so as much as I kind of, I mean, I'm
Speaker 1: an equal opportunity heiter when it comes to the PGA
Speaker 1: two and Live really because they're both in the having
Speaker 1: done Australia favors. But um, I think it would be
Speaker 1: a massive thing down here. I think the crowds are
Speaker 1: going to be crazy, people from all over the country.
Speaker 1: You are going to add like to watch because because
Speaker 1: you take it for granted in America that you you
Speaker 1: know the tour is going to come and you get
Speaker 1: to watch Tiger Woods and you get to watch all
Speaker 1: the best players in the world whenever you want. Really,
Speaker 1: we just don't see them anymore. Again and again, talking
Speaker 1: about the generational span, I remember, Jeff, when you know,
Speaker 1: Nicholas and Palmer and Player came down here pretty much
Speaker 1: every year because I had a deal with Loszenges. Part
Speaker 1: of the deal of getting the royalties from all the
Speaker 1: all the clubs that donelupst and just sold in Australia
Speaker 1: with their names on it was they come and played here.
Speaker 1: So I grew up in an era when you know,
Speaker 1: it was normal to see the best players in the
Speaker 1: world player every year, and we're don't do it anymore.
Speaker 1: So you and Nicholas, I mean he always talked about
Speaker 1: the Australian Open is really meaningful victories if you went
Speaker 1: into five times, I mean there was a point of
Speaker 1: pride and yeah, five sick player one of maybe seven off.
Speaker 1: I mean Parma one of the think I only one
Speaker 1: at once. He wanted a raw Queensland, but he played
Speaker 1: it decent. Palmer didn't play as much as the others,
Speaker 1: but he played you a lot. He's trying. Open trophies
Speaker 1: are pretty impressive engraving on there. I think Gary seven,
Speaker 1: Jack five, maybe your six five or six. Yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: I mean Saracen's on it, and you know there are
Speaker 1: a lot of great players on that trophy. That's a
Speaker 1: pretty good trophy. That's a good trophy. Norman, Yeah, Norman
Speaker 1: and Gregg one at six times, I think, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: Like if you spend all your time in the US,
Speaker 1: it's just it's quite everyone you bump into is like
Speaker 1: pretty anti, you know. But every time you bump into
Speaker 1: someone outside of the US, they're a little bit more
Speaker 1: neutral about the whole thing because of that issue. Because
Speaker 1: every every two is lost the best players in the
Speaker 1: world coming over the last thirty. People just want to
Speaker 1: see the best players player. They don't really care what
Speaker 1: vehicle they come under. They just want to see him play,
Speaker 1: you know. So it's interesting the perspective difference outside of
Speaker 1: the US and in Soude the US, it's quite different.
Speaker 1: I was at the Dunhill this year. We obviously I'll
Speaker 1: watched you play there on Saturday, but I drove up
Speaker 1: from London on I left London at three o'clock on
Speaker 1: Thursday morning and Hug he said, made me behind the
Speaker 1: sixth tea at Krust. So he walked out, I'll five
Speaker 1: away to the six tier one one thirty or whatever was.
Speaker 1: Roy mccra was waiting on the tea for the group
Speaker 1: I had to get out of the road match. Fitz
Speaker 1: Patrick Shane Larry was behind him. We're also waiting on
Speaker 1: the tea and Matt Fitzpatrick was the group by on him.
Speaker 1: He walked off the fifth grade. And so the three
Speaker 1: of them, three groups around the six tea, And Huggy's
Speaker 1: bitching about this tourment, This bloody tournament takes forever, slow play,
Speaker 1: playing with hackers. It's a pay in the art this tourment,
Speaker 1: said Huggy, we're watching Roy McElroy play golf. How much
Speaker 1: people in Australia give to watch Roy mcarroy play golf?
Speaker 1: He said, yeah, you're right, stop your whinging. You know,
Speaker 1: it was it was just it was just we just
Speaker 1: don't see those guys. So it was he's how you
Speaker 1: bitching about having to wait for ten minutes to watch
Speaker 1: Roy mcaway two off the sixth kinds I want one
Speaker 1: of the best part fives in golf, downhill, cool tournament,
Speaker 1: roy mcaway playing golf. But of course how you see
Speaker 1: him play all the time, so he just takes it
Speaker 1: for granted. But you know, not to be taken for
Speaker 1: granted watching Roy mcaway play golf. Ever, do you have
Speaker 1: a sense of Greg Norman talks about his desire to
Speaker 1: grow golf globally through this Live to Do. Do you
Speaker 1: have a sense that is a truthful stement or not?
Speaker 1: I don't know how quite know how to word what
Speaker 1: is his goal? Um, I think Greg's goals to make
Speaker 1: money for Greg. Probably I might be wrong, but you know, um,
Speaker 1: you know, I thought you can't. You know, it would
Speaker 1: be silly to expect a bunch of twenty five year
Speaker 1: olds to think of this at the time. But if
Speaker 1: in or eighty one, the early eighties, Savvy and Greg
Speaker 1: and Nick Price and you know, all those guys Fellow
Speaker 1: playing in Europe had gotten together and said, let's create
Speaker 1: a great tour outside of the United States, so we
Speaker 1: can I hate the phrase, grow the game in our
Speaker 1: own country. So when let's all go play the Australia,
Speaker 1: let's all go play the suffic and Open. Let's create
Speaker 1: a great tour in Europe. Let's go and play the
Speaker 1: Japan Open. Let's create a viable, a great and viable
Speaker 1: to outside of the United States. Then they could have
Speaker 1: done that. There are enough That was the only yera
Speaker 1: where there are enough superstars to create that. But you
Speaker 1: can't expect twenty five year olds Savrianno Balastos and Nick
Speaker 1: Fellow and Great to even think of that idea, let
Speaker 1: alone create it. So that that would have been and
Speaker 1: if that tour had growing and captured mcaroy in Westwood,
Speaker 1: Poulter and Adam Scott and Ogilvy and all of the
Speaker 1: best non American players early else, it would be the
Speaker 1: best too in the world. Now would be incredible because
Speaker 1: it would be miles more interesting and you would you
Speaker 1: would go to the best courses and they would be
Speaker 1: playing for phenomenal and has some money, and that would
Speaker 1: have been a great way to expand the professional game
Speaker 1: around the world. You could have organized Asia and my
Speaker 1: golfing Asia better, which has always been wildly disorganized. So
Speaker 1: that seems like live they're going to throw some money
Speaker 1: out and make it much better than it's always been.
Speaker 1: But that that was the chance to really create a
Speaker 1: great world to it. But a forty eight man exhibition
Speaker 1: kind of exhibition slash torment playing fourteen times a year,
Speaker 1: mostly in America still hawen. How many weeks are in
Speaker 1: America now? Eight? Half of them yeah for live, Yeah,
Speaker 1: half of them in you understand more than half. They
Speaker 1: have an announcer schedule for this year. I think it's
Speaker 1: going to be eight or nine out of fourteen. Yeah,
Speaker 1: So that's kind of yea. If Greg was organizing that
Speaker 1: creating a hundred and forty man world tour and trying
Speaker 1: to get all of the best non American players to
Speaker 1: play thirty five weeks around the world. Not that they
Speaker 1: have to play. Everyone has to play thirty five plays
Speaker 1: me as they want. But that would be something truly
Speaker 1: that would grow the game internationally. But now the PGA
Speaker 1: two is such a dominant tour that all the focuses
Speaker 1: in America, and so it's, um, it's a pity for
Speaker 1: someone who played in Europe and lovesly European tour of it.
Speaker 1: Hopefully it still remains a relevant, strong and relevant too,
Speaker 1: but I mean arguably, I mean, we saw how many
Speaker 1: Australian kids went to play the tour school in Asia
Speaker 1: this year. Asia might become a pretty significant tour to
Speaker 1: live money flows into that and they started expanding that
Speaker 1: because that's always been a pretty poorly administered professional gaming
Speaker 1: I mean, we paid that tour for used to go
Speaker 1: for ten weeks in I paint Stewart played My first
Speaker 1: year in Asia was the first year he didn't play.
Speaker 1: He played there for three or four years, and you know,
Speaker 1: Bob Tway was up there, you know, but a bunch
Speaker 1: of young Americans who were trying to Jeff Sluman, just
Speaker 1: waiting to find their way unto the PGR two. And
Speaker 1: part of that was to go and play in Asia
Speaker 1: in February and March and April Joey Sinde Lauren. You
Speaker 1: know there are a bunch of guys went up there
Speaker 1: and played good players. So you know, the rest of
Speaker 1: the world needs to get us act together. But I'm
Speaker 1: not sure that Lives is the way to do that.
Speaker 1: You know, it needs to be bigger than that, and
Speaker 1: more players than that, and more countries than that, and
Speaker 1: you know, so it's interesting, as I said, you know,
Speaker 1: it's it's fascinating as someone who doesn't play anymore and
Speaker 1: doesn't I kind of care what happens, but it's not
Speaker 1: affecting me. Affects the kids that you know, kids I
Speaker 1: care about, and you know, whether they make a living
Speaker 1: out of playing professional golf. But the rest of all,
Speaker 1: they used to get up guys act together and stop
Speaker 1: putting on a cow one night a show and trying
Speaker 1: to win back the the flat of plastic. Go to
Speaker 1: the page I too, because obviously that's why you're gonna go,
Speaker 1: because that's where the best plast and that's where the
Speaker 1: money is, But what does it look like in a
Speaker 1: hundred years or fifty year? Is the the professional guy?
Speaker 1: You know, do you set about the professional game with
Speaker 1: a fifty year vision of where it's kind to be
Speaker 1: outside of the US or is it just dominated by America?
Speaker 1: Who knows? I'm even five years this live experiment. Uh,
Speaker 1: it's has a shorter time horizon. And what's it gonna
Speaker 1: look like in two years? It's it's such a big question.
Speaker 1: I mean, they're trying to piece it all together right now.
Speaker 1: They have an announcer schedule, they have announced the TV
Speaker 1: deal or hemorrhaging top executives. They haven't signed any players.
Speaker 1: Like it's fair to wonder, like, where where is it
Speaker 1: going to go? And even in the short term, let
Speaker 1: alone the long term, and then does it exist in
Speaker 1: five years? Do do we think that just the sat
Speaker 1: is just got This is all too hard? I mean,
Speaker 1: Paul Paul McNamee is a friend of mine. In fact,
Speaker 1: you know, we're watching the tennis at Yong the other
Speaker 1: day and he said, you know, the Saudi has brought
Speaker 1: the wrong sport. Because he's a big critic of the
Speaker 1: way tennis is organized. He says it's just a tennis
Speaker 1: is incredibly badly organized. I mean, the tennis wishes it
Speaker 1: was golf with all the money in golf. And he's
Speaker 1: a massive critic of the way the tennis too was
Speaker 1: organized and how poorly the players have played. Obviously not
Speaker 1: at the top end, but you know, he said, if
Speaker 1: you're not in the top hunder in the world and
Speaker 1: playing in the ground, Sam, you're not making a living
Speaker 1: playing tennis. So, um, well, I've heard some rumblings that
Speaker 1: that there's there's there's a breakaway tennis league that's that's
Speaker 1: trying to get in with the public investment funds, so
Speaker 1: they may yet, you know, reshape the tennis game as well.
Speaker 1: Paul's view was that all forty eight of the top
Speaker 1: forty A players were well not forty because forty probably
Speaker 1: doesn't work with a probably sixty four with the sixty
Speaker 1: four draw, But um he said that all sign everyone. Yeah,
Speaker 1: the same is the LPGA really you know, you know,
Speaker 1: if if Lives it up to destroy the LPGA two,
Speaker 1: they would just sign the top fortypg A players and
Speaker 1: they would all go. I assume I think lives vision
Speaker 1: is to partner with the LPGA and and just play
Speaker 1: on weeks that don't compete with the LPGA, and it
Speaker 1: would be an additive. So keep the LPG schedule and
Speaker 1: then come play eight live events and everyone makes money
Speaker 1: and everyone's excited to be there, and you know that
Speaker 1: that's obviously more productive if you could partner and not compete,
Speaker 1: or to be fair, I think they wanted to partner
Speaker 1: with the PGA tourists just they don't have any room too.
Speaker 1: There's just no dates in the year, you know, Like
Speaker 1: so I don't think they wanted to be come in
Speaker 1: and bully, but they kind of had to. You know. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's interesting because I mean this could be whole of
Speaker 1: their podcast. But you know, when Andy Gardner hatch the
Speaker 1: Premier Golf League, I mean that goes back to two
Speaker 1: thousand and eighteen, and he was he always thought that
Speaker 1: they could coexist and he was trying to forge dialogue
Speaker 1: and ultimately kind of this last ditch effort, he tried
Speaker 1: to give a make make all the tour players equity
Speaker 1: partners in the Premier Golf League and um, but the
Speaker 1: Saudi's at that point, we're already on the scene and
Speaker 1: they had they had more money and and they weren't
Speaker 1: as interested in partnering Jeff. I mean I think they
Speaker 1: saw like, we we can just do this and um
Speaker 1: with it without the PGA tour. But I mean, I'm
Speaker 1: retracing all this in a book and it's a fascinating
Speaker 1: chapter with the PGL and what could have been because
Speaker 1: that that they really were serious golf people and they
Speaker 1: had they had this grand vision. I've read their hundred
Speaker 1: sixteen page perspectives that laid out all these different ways
Speaker 1: to engage fans and to rethink the entire support and
Speaker 1: it's really cleverly done. And um, but of course the
Speaker 1: Saudi's came in. They hired a couple of of the
Speaker 1: pgl's top guys and they just they just stole the
Speaker 1: idea essentially, and but they did it their way, which
Speaker 1: was with a lot less finesse and a lot more money.
Speaker 1: And um, we could have been having a different conversation
Speaker 1: where this this competitor which towards the tour needs. They've
Speaker 1: always needed a competitor, right, but it could have been
Speaker 1: a lot more elegant. But it's not the way I
Speaker 1: played out. Have the PAGL gone away that I just
Speaker 1: the no longer roup writing Andy Goddener, and I mean
Speaker 1: where is he gone? Yeah, I mean I suspect they're
Speaker 1: building a a um a nine figure lawsuit against the
Speaker 1: Saudi golf folks because when you read this perspective, I
Speaker 1: mean everything that's in there live just flat out took.
Speaker 1: It's not even subtle, and they used every idea, every
Speaker 1: idea and um and so yeah, I think you know
Speaker 1: the fight's over. They're not. They're not gonna be a
Speaker 1: third breakaway league. That's impossible. There's not enough stars to
Speaker 1: support two circuits. So I think the idea is mostly dead.
Speaker 1: But um, I don't think we've heard the last from
Speaker 1: the PGL, just from a legal standpoint. So if the
Speaker 1: Saudis decade that had enough and saw that we're gonna
Speaker 1: box tennis instead of golf, and they went away with
Speaker 1: the PAG replace them, they might try. They might try,
Speaker 1: um because you know they had they had money from
Speaker 1: UH investors and from institutional lenders, and you know it's
Speaker 1: mostly European money, some Australian money didn't have the taint
Speaker 1: of of the Saudias and all that. I mean, it
Speaker 1: could have been an interesting product. That's that's we're getting.
Speaker 1: We're getting yeah, we're getting in the weeds here, but
Speaker 1: it is fascinating stuff. I mean, Mike, as as we
Speaker 1: alluded to earlier, I mean, people come to you for
Speaker 1: podcasts and to write articles about the state of the
Speaker 1: game and and where it's all headed art. Uh. You know,
Speaker 1: Michael and Jeff and I have talked about this a
Speaker 1: great length with other guests. But are are are you concerned?
Speaker 1: I mean when when you look at it all the
Speaker 1: trends from participation to uh, golf course openings to the
Speaker 1: professional game, Like if you put you on the spot here, like,
Speaker 1: what is the state of game right now? It's pretty good,
Speaker 1: isn't it. I mean, in terms of the little world
Speaker 1: Jeff and I inhabit, the architecture ward, I think it's
Speaker 1: it's in great shape. And I think the last thirty
Speaker 1: years will we look back on in a hundred years Instead,
Speaker 1: it's being incredibly productive. So I think, you know, in
Speaker 1: terms of the golf course, that the golf courses we're playing,
Speaker 1: that the game is much better. Um, you know, outside
Speaker 1: of America it's really affordable. Club memberships are still cheap,
Speaker 1: and clubs still do really well in Australia and and
Speaker 1: from what I can tell and in England, so it's
Speaker 1: you know, it's affordable, it's I mean Australia's look at American,
Speaker 1: they're amazing how expensive the game is to play it
Speaker 1: kind of country club level, how much it costs and
Speaker 1: reversing that American. I played with a couple of Americans
Speaker 1: last week Metropolitan, my home club, and we were talking
Speaker 1: about what it costs to join Real Melbourne. It was
Speaker 1: I don't know, it's what's fifteen or sixteen thousand Australian
Speaker 1: dollars to join and then six thousand dollars a year
Speaker 1: Australian dollars four thousand US. I think they can't get
Speaker 1: their head around that. Remember, I agree with the greatest
Speaker 1: silly sixth old place in the world, and it's just
Speaker 1: giving it it away, so you know, it's cheaper to four.
Speaker 1: COVID was the best, you know, for all the silly
Speaker 1: growth of game initiatives and how much money got spent
Speaker 1: on growing the game through all these wild ideas. COVID
Speaker 1: did a better job than any of them in growing
Speaker 1: the game because what else We're going to play golf?
Speaker 1: So it's um. The courses are great. The professional game
Speaker 1: has lots of money in the professional game, and people
Speaker 1: are interested in it. I'm going a goal still going well.
Speaker 1: Public golf has never been better, So it's um yeah,
Speaker 1: I think the game is in great shape because ultimately
Speaker 1: it's a great game. It's a cool game to play.
Speaker 1: It's good fine. It's you play with the world, the
Speaker 1: disparate group of people and who will tend to love
Speaker 1: playing it not but most of them loved hang And
Speaker 1: it's a great game to travel with. It's it's the best,
Speaker 1: it's the best game to travel. Where you got all
Speaker 1: these amazing places around the world you played tennis, I
Speaker 1: mean towns courts, the towns court, unless you're on the
Speaker 1: center court at Monte Carlo, which is a pretty cool
Speaker 1: place for wimbled not or something. It towns courts, the
Speaker 1: town's court. But there are so many amazing places to
Speaker 1: play golf that that's the one great attraction of the
Speaker 1: game is the places that we play it. And you
Speaker 1: can go anywhere and find anyone on the first team
Speaker 1: have a have a cool game because you kind of
Speaker 1: bonded with this common affection for a crazy game. So
Speaker 1: I think it's doing fine. You know, there's there's um,
Speaker 1: you know, golf in newspapers are sort of dead. No
Speaker 1: one buys newspapers to read golf anymore. But there's never
Speaker 1: been better or more great golf riding. To be access
Speaker 1: you just need to be on you know, I see
Speaker 1: these old guys that have gone. You know that that
Speaker 1: I meant the fact that there's no golf on you know,
Speaker 1: newspapers anymore, as if we kind of go back to
Speaker 1: the nineteen seventies. But you ask him if they're on Twitter.
Speaker 1: Of course they're not on Twitter because they barely heard
Speaker 1: of it. But you can read everyone on Twitter. I mean,
Speaker 1: there's more access to great golf rowing now than ever.
Speaker 1: Just get on Twitter and follow all the guys who
Speaker 1: put great golf content up there. So much golf from
Speaker 1: reading now, it's amazing. So it's some guy comes in
Speaker 1: great shape. Really, the only thing is the ball goes
Speaker 1: too far for the best players, so the courses don't
Speaker 1: play the way they shortened. So once the administration gets
Speaker 1: their heads around that, then the game will be even
Speaker 1: better off. Because I think it's you know, I kind
Speaker 1: of like the Year of Jeff when Bill Rodgers was
Speaker 1: hitting a three on under the last hole of Victoria
Speaker 1: to win the Australian Open. I mean Greg in Veness,
Speaker 1: Greg at the nine on that day, last sole of
Speaker 1: Victoria's and up and over the hill four and sixty
Speaker 1: four me to Paart five with a tea. That's ten
Speaker 1: yards further back than when Bill Rodgers played when he
Speaker 1: won the Open there. That was a really good hole
Speaker 1: when it was a driver three on. It's not very
Speaker 1: interesting when it's a driver nine on. So the game
Speaker 1: is more interesting when you know it asked more of
Speaker 1: the second shots. But once we get around that, the
Speaker 1: game will be will be perfect because it's such a
Speaker 1: great game. It's an amazing game, you know, and it's spawned,
Speaker 1: you know. I mean we were talking about Michael's book
Speaker 1: that Green wrote Home It's spawn some and so many others.
Speaker 1: You know, it's spawn so much great writing. It's a
Speaker 1: it's a great game to read about when people don't
Speaker 1: read enough golf, which I think we would all agree that.
Speaker 1: I think that there lots of people who play golf
Speaker 1: and they take out of the game what they personally
Speaker 1: want out of the game, and that which is fine,
Speaker 1: that's kind of its purpose. But they would never read
Speaker 1: a book about golf. That the thing to read a
Speaker 1: book about golf on this there are so many great
Speaker 1: golf books that are so much fun to fun to
Speaker 1: read about. I mean Tom Callahan's book. Is that great
Speaker 1: picture of you, Jeff reading Callahan's book on Arnie, which
Speaker 1: was an amazing book of such a brilliant book, I means,
Speaker 1: such a it's a fun right just read great Golf
Speaker 1: Friday about someone who was a compelling figure and you
Speaker 1: know it's um. There's so many great books to read
Speaker 1: about golf, even if you don't play it. When Mike
Speaker 1: and I bonded over um, Australian sports r Jeff Roades
Speaker 1: told me that your best sports book ever written was
Speaker 1: a Handful of Summers by Gordon Forbes. So I went
Speaker 1: and border in Lily Whites in London, which I don't
Speaker 1: know if Willie Wait still exists. It was one of
Speaker 1: the great sports stores of the world, I think. But
Speaker 1: that you said, you told me if I went in there,
Speaker 1: i'd find a copy of it. Sure enough it was
Speaker 1: in there. I lent it to Frank Nobelo and never
Speaker 1: got it back, which was always a great listen and
Speaker 1: never lend books so to buy not a copy, But
Speaker 1: I mean that was a great sports books just just
Speaker 1: a brilliant sports book. But there's so much great golf
Speaker 1: rotting that even if you didn't play golf you could
Speaker 1: read it about golf and just love it because the
Speaker 1: rotting is so great. Small of the ball, the better
Speaker 1: the rotting. Right, Yeah, that's George Plimpton. Yeah, only might
Speaker 1: because so many of of our listeners maybe won't even
Speaker 1: know the name. That they do know the name, they
Speaker 1: won't know how to spell it, and they really don't
Speaker 1: know anything about the man whose accomplishments his personality. But
Speaker 1: you're just old enough to have known Peter Thompson, and
Speaker 1: I'm wondering if you could could could could it could
Speaker 1: just give us a short biographical sketch of what an
Speaker 1: extraordinary man he was, both as a golfer and a
Speaker 1: politician and as a person in the game. It was
Speaker 1: no shot on um, I was walking. What was I
Speaker 1: watching them? Maybe the sandbolt so much? Remember um with
Speaker 1: Andrew his son, and we got to talking about because
Speaker 1: Thomas Noah made the game look easier than him ever,
Speaker 1: he looked like he was just playing a Saturday afternoon
Speaker 1: four ball in a tournament. It was amazing, I said,
Speaker 1: you know, was it was? It was the game simple
Speaker 1: for your dad because the way he thought about it,
Speaker 1: or was the way he thought about it so simple
Speaker 1: because of he just stumbled upon a really simple way
Speaker 1: to play it. And he said, you know, he said,
Speaker 1: and I never knew his his dad just disappeared. He
Speaker 1: was at the time, he was an only child. His
Speaker 1: father disappeared during the depression to go and make some
Speaker 1: earn a living, and his mother divorced eventually for desertion,
Speaker 1: which was a grounds for divorce back then, because that
Speaker 1: was in the year in Australia before no fault divorce.
Speaker 1: You you have to have a reason to divorce someone,
Speaker 1: and desertion was reading to divorce someone. So he said,
Speaker 1: he grew up with nothing poor, started playing off on
Speaker 1: a public course and just fan balls and hit a
Speaker 1: ball around. And but he he always had it. He
Speaker 1: had a great mind for golf. He was he played
Speaker 1: it so beautifully and simply and thought about it so simply.
Speaker 1: But he um, My dad took me to Metropolitan to
Speaker 1: watch the Australian PGA in nine seven. I think I
Speaker 1: was there for a couple of years, sixty seven and
Speaker 1: sixty eight. He stid of walked in there and he said,
Speaker 1: as Petter Thompson, he's the best player here, will go
Speaker 1: and watch him. So I didn't have any idea what
Speaker 1: I was watching, but I watched him and he was
Speaker 1: kind of my hero from that day on really, and
Speaker 1: I watched him. I took up golf a year later
Speaker 1: and went down to watch him play every chance I could.
Speaker 1: When he played the Sad Belton play the Torments in
Speaker 1: Melbourne and the first vic Open I played, you know,
Speaker 1: Yary year, I played with him and the third round
Speaker 1: was like god, I was so nervous playing with Petter
Speaker 1: Tom couldn't believe it. And he hit this drive out
Speaker 1: of the neck on the second hole. It um Yarry, yeah,
Speaker 1: just straight into those Cypres streets, left with the team.
Speaker 1: Couldn't belie of it, like out of someone like that
Speaker 1: hit a shot like that. But he was And I
Speaker 1: grew up reading him. I mean he wrote in the
Speaker 1: age most weeks, so his writing was you know, at
Speaker 1: the time, I disagreed with most of the things he
Speaker 1: was writing about, only to realize as I grew up
Speaker 1: and learned a bit about golf that I was completely
Speaker 1: wrong almost every time, and he was completely right everything
Speaker 1: he was saying about the game, and so he was
Speaker 1: incized if he was controversially, he was a beautiful writer.
Speaker 1: He thought about the game on a different level, and
Speaker 1: he was the talking about the world tour. He was
Speaker 1: the he was the one who really tried to instigate
Speaker 1: the world tour. He was the one who was writing
Speaker 1: about a tour outside of America because he realized the
Speaker 1: game needed to provide more jobs for more players. So
Speaker 1: he essentially set up and started the Asian Tour, and
Speaker 1: he went played in Japan a lot, He played in Europe, lot,
Speaker 1: and he played a lot in Australia obviously, and he
Speaker 1: was the main guy in the in the sixties. He
Speaker 1: was the main guy. He took no appearance man, He
Speaker 1: just he played because he realized that the game had
Speaker 1: to develop and him as the the most important non
Speaker 1: American player around the world, it was fell on him
Speaker 1: to kind of pull it together, which he did. You know,
Speaker 1: he walked the walk and he he and Kilnego were
Speaker 1: incredible but brilliant minds, simple, great writer, beautiful player only
Speaker 1: and he would turn up to Jeff I'm sure you
Speaker 1: were a pennant Dinners of Victoria, where he would come
Speaker 1: and speak to the Pennant team, and he would turn
Speaker 1: up at dinners and lunches and just speak just because
Speaker 1: he it was. It gave any kind of event that
Speaker 1: had no right to be important kind of gravitats because
Speaker 1: he was there. He d dangerous with his presence, almost
Speaker 1: in a positive way, not not like it was. He
Speaker 1: would just turn up and just be Petter Thompson, which
Speaker 1: would just be really cool and talk about golfing, great speaker, funny, deprecating,
Speaker 1: self deprecating. He played played down what he did, but
Speaker 1: he knew what he'd done was important. You know. He
Speaker 1: had a great sense of without being bost he had
Speaker 1: a great sense of his importance in the game and
Speaker 1: who he was. And he always you know, his legacy
Speaker 1: was incredible. Really when he when he won the Australian
Speaker 1: Open in eighteen seventy two, he was in his mid fifties, right, No, no, no,
Speaker 1: he was forty two. He was nine twenty nine. He
Speaker 1: was the same he was Annald Palmer. Yeah, yeah, so
Speaker 1: he was. So I remember him writing, you know, and
Speaker 1: forty two when I was like, you know it was
Speaker 1: I right, No, sevent two, I was fifteen sixteen, So
Speaker 1: forty two seems like ancient you know, he was an
Speaker 1: old man. Of course he wasn't old at all. But
Speaker 1: and he wrote about when he won. He wrote about
Speaker 1: you know, obviously there was more pressure on David because
Speaker 1: in truth this was a much more important torming for
Speaker 1: him to win that it was for me. So he
Speaker 1: was playing it down. But um, he had a beautiful
Speaker 1: shot into the seventy second hole. He was one behind him,
Speaker 1: had a seven eye to a foot, just a beautiful
Speaker 1: shot which was in the elastic Keyonga which was a
Speaker 1: short path for he bumped a three with off the
Speaker 1: tea and hit a beautiful shot. But the famous story
Speaker 1: of the playoff, of course, stupidly and unimaginably. Now there
Speaker 1: was an eighteen whole playoff on Monday which was televised.
Speaker 1: So Peter had probably gone to Royal that lay, which
Speaker 1: is just around the corner, to warm up, hit a
Speaker 1: few balls and warm up, David said, David sitting balls
Speaker 1: on the range of Kyonga and Guy Wolston home. It
Speaker 1: was a terrific English player who emigrated to Australia and
Speaker 1: lived here and played here for in the seventies. Um
Speaker 1: Peter was up on the balcony of the club was
Speaker 1: having a cup of tea, and David Graham kind of
Speaker 1: turns around and said, he's not even taking it seriously,
Speaker 1: he's not even hitting any balls. What's he doing because
Speaker 1: he's probably stuck off and hit balls all that day.
Speaker 1: But anyway, um, I didn't know, I'll play off. Peter
Speaker 1: walked under the tea and just kind of it was
Speaker 1: a kind of a bit of I guess it was
Speaker 1: probably pretty not that organized, not that ma sure, but
Speaker 1: pretty just ted his ball up and hit it, and
Speaker 1: David was upset, Um, well, you know, we didn't toss
Speaker 1: a coin, and he said, well, I made three. The
Speaker 1: last home was my honor goes. David was obviously nervous,
Speaker 1: and now he's upset and Snap walks that having hit
Speaker 1: twenty perfect drives on the practice flay, Snap poked it
Speaker 1: out in the practice fair and walked down there to
Speaker 1: find white steaks on the side of the practice fairways
Speaker 1: balls out of bounds. He's now going to walk back
Speaker 1: to the teeth. As he's walking back to the tea,
Speaker 1: Peter hits his second shide up fifty yards shot of
Speaker 1: the green and and then proceeds to pitch to the
Speaker 1: twenty ft and knock it in made four and David
Speaker 1: made seven, and he beat him seventy four. But you
Speaker 1: know it was over even before David hit a shot, really,
Speaker 1: and he would play those sort of Penny would play
Speaker 1: those sort of mind games. He was. It was a
Speaker 1: great sledger. Is a sled is sledging a word in America.
Speaker 1: Jeff thinks it's a cricket game. For needle, it's need
Speaker 1: It's a needle, yeah, needle. Yeah, it's called sledging and cricket.
Speaker 1: So Tom I was a great sledger. He kind of
Speaker 1: throwing a little kind of Lee Travino type barb every
Speaker 1: now and that. It was actually clever and quite funny.
Speaker 1: But yeah, he was. I'd love to hear that because
Speaker 1: he always seemed like such a perfect gentleman, and I
Speaker 1: pictured him as, you know, a boy scout out there.
Speaker 1: I like to hear he had a little bit of
Speaker 1: an edge, you know about that day I played with him,
Speaker 1: The area of the fourth old area was a great
Speaker 1: part three and we're hitting seven eyes chef, so that
Speaker 1: was kind of some indication what the wind was like
Speaker 1: is and the green used to kind of bow off
Speaker 1: at the sides of it. They changed it years later
Speaker 1: and ruined it and Tom don't fixed it. But um,
Speaker 1: you hit the edge of the green and always kick
Speaker 1: off the edge of the green into the deep bunk
Speaker 1: on the left. This pretty good shot with the seven
Speaker 1: iron and just kind of got in the wind and
Speaker 1: kind of turned a bit left and hit this thing.
Speaker 1: And I went down the bunker and yeah, as I
Speaker 1: pulled my tear to the ground, he was walking up
Speaker 1: to hit and he said, he said, the wind got
Speaker 1: you there, didn't it. It was that was just Tomo,
Speaker 1: you know him. The wind got you there. It was.
Speaker 1: It was just a he was Yeah, he was great.
Speaker 1: He was great because he was Yeah. It was the
Speaker 1: way you would talk to someone playing a friendly game
Speaker 1: on Saturday afternoon at the club. He just he never
Speaker 1: treated toime and golf any differently, and people would get
Speaker 1: upset it. He would kind of throw these little needles in,
Speaker 1: but it was it was exactly what you would say
Speaker 1: to a mate playing and not playing a friendly game.
Speaker 1: He just treated the same. But but he was great
Speaker 1: for the young players. He was. Norman Vonneider had mentored
Speaker 1: him when he was to the point where the first
Speaker 1: year he went to Europe, Voneyda said well, because Petter
Speaker 1: didn't obviously have much money of the first year he
Speaker 1: was there and nine fifty one, and Vonnier offered to
Speaker 1: split the prize money. Let's just split our prize money,
Speaker 1: which was von saying if you run out of money,
Speaker 1: I'll back you. Don't worry about it. But I mean,
Speaker 1: Petty was six in his first open and there was
Speaker 1: no need for him to put his prize money, but yeah,
Speaker 1: he was so so Vonneider had really helped him, and
Speaker 1: Peter kind of took that on board, and you know
Speaker 1: the next generation, Graham marsh and David Graham Stewart again,
Speaker 1: Bob she here. He was a great mentor to all
Speaker 1: those guys, which is sort of what we're trying to
Speaker 1: do with the Sandbolt Toma. Jeff, I guess is really
Speaker 1: carry on that legacy of Thompson and Voneida of helping
Speaker 1: young kids have find their way in the game because
Speaker 1: it's not absolutely Yeah, well this is why you're so indispensable. You,
Speaker 1: like Jeff said, you can bridge the gap from for
Speaker 1: Peter Thompson and Semi by Sterios to take her woods too.
Speaker 1: You know, the modern architecture like it's it's quite a
Speaker 1: golfing life you've had. Yeah, it's been a you know,
Speaker 1: it's I've loved it. It's been a wild ride. Really,
Speaker 1: it's still started because I my parents bought a house
Speaker 1: at the back of a golf course that no longer exists.
Speaker 1: They sold off the houses but when we jumped the
Speaker 1: fence to caddy just to make some money. Really, so
Speaker 1: it's a it's a it's a pitying caddy has gone
Speaker 1: out of the game in Australia. But um, yeah, it's
Speaker 1: been up. You know, golf. Golf finds you really more
Speaker 1: than we find it almost. But it's a cool game,
Speaker 1: you know, it's been an amazing game to be involved
Speaker 1: and just yeah, I can't believe that people have met
Speaker 1: really and it's amazing. Caddied for a caddy for a
Speaker 1: friend of mine at the Wills Masters in Victoria and
Speaker 1: he played with Norman Voneider And then when I turned
Speaker 1: pro John Kelly and I won the Australian Amet as well.
Speaker 1: We went and stayed with Norman Vonida for a week
Speaker 1: at Carrelbin and he trying to taught us and play
Speaker 1: with this and here I was like in or of Norman.
Speaker 1: Norman voneider and six years later, I'm saking my girlfriend
Speaker 1: into the flat so after he'd gone to sleep, and
Speaker 1: who's now my wife? And you know, but I mean,
Speaker 1: you know the thing that I mean having got to
Speaker 1: know vonn in the years after, I mean, the last
Speaker 1: thing Norman Vona would kid about was me snaking my
Speaker 1: girlfriend into the end of the house after he'd gone
Speaker 1: to sleep. I mean, it would have been full of
Speaker 1: encouragement for that sort of behavior. But god, he was
Speaker 1: such a legend, Norman Vonia. What a player he was. Wow,
Speaker 1: I think you still got the record for the most
Speaker 1: number of torments one in Europe in a single year.
Speaker 1: So he was you know, he was a he was
Speaker 1: a god in Australia. That's a good bit of trivia.
Speaker 1: You can make some money the week of the Open
Speaker 1: in the in the pubs, they're asking asking the fans
Speaker 1: that Norman h can I get one more? Can I
Speaker 1: get one more? In here? Of course, last call for
Speaker 1: both of you guys when you worked to other, are
Speaker 1: you very much on the same page. You have different
Speaker 1: ways of looking at a golf halls and what a
Speaker 1: golf cours should be. Um well, I think that having
Speaker 1: both grown up at ray Melbourne. Jeff was a caddie
Speaker 1: and living on the course, and me is just you
Speaker 1: know some of who played it lots we and we
Speaker 1: both love St Andrews, so we all see the same things.
Speaker 1: I think you know, and Mackenzie was you know, he
Speaker 1: was transferring the sort of golf you have to play
Speaker 1: it on the old course. You transferred that around the world.
Speaker 1: He certainly took it to August and he took it
Speaker 1: to Roy Melbourne. So I think we all sort of
Speaker 1: see that that same sort of the way the game
Speaker 1: has played the old course and helped plays out and
Speaker 1: the choices you have to make. I think Jeff and
Speaker 1: I both see the see the game the same way
Speaker 1: because Rayal Melbourne was such an influence on as kids,
Speaker 1: and when you go to the old course and play there,
Speaker 1: you know this will makes sense now. So I think
Speaker 1: we both see the same sort of things. Really that
Speaker 1: makes sense. Jeff, I think it's completely true. I think
Speaker 1: we see it the same. I think it's nice to
Speaker 1: have two different generations to where I'm seeing three yards
Speaker 1: after team, you're seeing two fifty um and you just
Speaker 1: sort of getting because the philosophy works at any yet
Speaker 1: length really, you know, solid architecture. Royal Melbourne would be fine.
Speaker 1: Shorter or longer, it doesn't really matter. I mean, that's
Speaker 1: why Target is the best player there, because even though
Speaker 1: he's hitting at forty yards further than Severy was in
Speaker 1: it's still plays right. The right spots still the right spot,
Speaker 1: you know, and the right shots still the right shot,
Speaker 1: and it's still it still needs that the old course
Speaker 1: Royal Melbourne August that you still need to be one
Speaker 1: of the very very very best golfers in the world
Speaker 1: to sort of exploit and play it properly, you know.
Speaker 1: And that's just golfer is more interesting. It's more depth
Speaker 1: that way than just simple hit it here and hit
Speaker 1: it here, you know. So I think both of us
Speaker 1: very fortunate to grow up like around such incredible architecture,
Speaker 1: you know, because everywhere you go golf is not quite
Speaker 1: as good except for just a few there's just a
Speaker 1: few select places in the world where it's as good
Speaker 1: as real Melburn, but not many, you know, So we
Speaker 1: had very fortunate education just by geography. Really, proof of
Speaker 1: how great Royal Melbourne was, I thought, was Lydia co
Speaker 1: playing this train open there. How she took that thing
Speaker 1: apart and won by seven shots or something, and Stacy
Speaker 1: Lewis was complaining that Royal MOLBN didn't reward good shots,
Speaker 1: which was exactly right, it only rewards great shots. But
Speaker 1: Lydia was just this was pre They're going to see
Speaker 1: lead Better in the A swing. But you know, as
Speaker 1: great as watching Sevy entire play Royal Melbourne, as interesting
Speaker 1: was watching the best woman in the world and how
Speaker 1: she got her way around that course and how she
Speaker 1: figured out how to play it and the shots she hit,
Speaker 1: and that was just as fascinating. It's amazing. So um
Speaker 1: she was is great. She's back at number one right now.
Speaker 1: She she number one the world again. She is yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: she's she made it back, and you know she's not
Speaker 1: with Leadbetter anymore, and she's kind of gone back a
Speaker 1: little to her roots and her old, older swing and
Speaker 1: I think she's gearing up for another big run, which
Speaker 1: would be delightful. But yeah, you're right, that's an overlooked
Speaker 1: victory when people talk about her, just pure genius, like
Speaker 1: the way she remember that week that was that was
Speaker 1: an incredible stuff. Oh but not many top tens, not
Speaker 1: many courses. Let would let that happen. You know Role
Speaker 1: Melbourne and they all course Augustin probably not so much
Speaker 1: off the taste we played, but um, anyone, it's there
Speaker 1: for everybody. It doesn't matter what length you hit it. Um.
Speaker 1: Role Melbourne has the similar challenge. You get the same
Speaker 1: shots and you get every opportunity if you hit good
Speaker 1: shots at your length, you can play Role Melbourne. You know,
Speaker 1: it's not length is proportionately rewarded, not disproportionately. Imagine Bethpage
Speaker 1: Black but girls playing out there. I mean it's just
Speaker 1: doesn't work right. But Role Melbourne, it gets better almost
Speaker 1: the shorty hit it, you know. Um, yeah, genius. She
Speaker 1: didn't miss a shot for years, did she. She looks
Speaker 1: like she's back to where she was. Yeah, she's fantastic. Yeah,
Speaker 1: she was just an amazing player. She was almost the
Speaker 1: best part of the world of fifteen. When do you
Speaker 1: when they Canadian open at fifteen and it was phenomenal
Speaker 1: half creative players she is. That's good stuff all right?
Speaker 1: Before before you let might go, do you have any
Speaker 1: any parting thoughts? Jeff, No at all. He's giving you
Speaker 1: guys a few stories you haven't heard, yea more than
Speaker 1: a few. Um No, thanks for coming, Thanks for johning us.
Speaker 1: We couldn't do it. We couldn't do it without you.
Speaker 1: There's seventy ninth most Important President Goal podcast. Yeah, he's trending.
Speaker 1: He's trending alright, Mike. Well, if you see the little
Speaker 1: red phone icon at the bottom, click that. We we
Speaker 1: have a tradition of our guest leaves and then we
Speaker 1: talked about them behind their back, so we're gonna carry
Speaker 1: that on. Okay, thank you so much for your time.
Speaker 1: It was It was a great pleasure. Mike Clayton, what
Speaker 1: a gent Yeah, I'm telling you, like golf trivia between
Speaker 1: Bamburger and Clayton would be interesting. Um, many facts that
Speaker 1: he doesn't not obscure European tour players from the early
Speaker 1: eighties like that. That's the sweet spot. That's why I
Speaker 1: interviewed the guy the other day. He'd read he's read
Speaker 1: a book about Johnny McDermott and he's Irish himself, the
Speaker 1: author of the book. And we talked for thirty minutes,
Speaker 1: and then the guy wrote me note he said, I
Speaker 1: haven't talked to anybody for thirty minutes on the phone
Speaker 1: since high school. I'm like, minutes is nothing, But here
Speaker 1: we are in our fifteen with Mike Clayton, and literally
Speaker 1: we did not scratch the service. What he knows about
Speaker 1: the game, what he feels about the game, the fact
Speaker 1: that he still needs to play every day, the golf
Speaker 1: courses that he snuck onto, let alone the courses he
Speaker 1: played legitmanly. I mean, he's got such a rich golfing life.
Speaker 1: And when he jokes at Leader Thompson has a polly Met,
Speaker 1: he used, well, Peter Thompson death, it was the polly
Speaker 1: met the poly mets probably, but Mike Clayton's right there too.
Speaker 1: Jen Stevenson's name to even come up. He genuinely plays golf.
Speaker 1: He genuinely plays golf every day. I don't I cannot
Speaker 1: remember a day when he plays golf every day. And
Speaker 1: he would travel, if he went somewhere for golf, he
Speaker 1: would tag his golf clubs before his clothes, like it's
Speaker 1: clubs first, clothes optional, you know, like fantastic and talk
Speaker 1: about golf. He can talk about anything, like he talks
Speaker 1: about anything until he's very well read. Um as he said,
Speaker 1: he's probably read every golf book ever written twice, you know,
Speaker 1: some of them ten times. He just just it's a
Speaker 1: loft Tom Passion for for a guy ron incredible. I
Speaker 1: interviewed him about Greg Norman for this this live book
Speaker 1: that I'm writing, and and he was recounting on top
Speaker 1: of his head all kinds of old tournaments and details
Speaker 1: and shots and scores. And I went back and looked
Speaker 1: him all up. He was right about every single number
Speaker 1: and every single detail. It was uncanny. I mean, stuff
Speaker 1: from the seventies, like just an incredible mind for it.
Speaker 1: But let's get back to Jan Stevenson. What's that story. No,
Speaker 1: it's just you know, icon of the game that I
Speaker 1: thought this might be like shades of Norm Bend Nita's
Speaker 1: a flat sneaking in. But now I'm disappointed. Um, Um
Speaker 1: check the you know, as as Mike representatives, Peter Thompson did,
Speaker 1: as Adam Scott does. That unpretentious spirit of the Australian
Speaker 1: golfer is one of the richest links in the game.
Speaker 1: As you've gotten to know some of these younger players
Speaker 1: coming up, you know, with the sand Belt, the Invitational
Speaker 1: and other things that you do. Um, is there any
Speaker 1: jeopardy of of golf, of Australian golf losing that spirit
Speaker 1: or are you seeing it in the next generation. No,
Speaker 1: I think that's a bit of a trait of all Ozzies,
Speaker 1: to be honest, we all sort of it's good and
Speaker 1: it's bad, right. It keeps everybody sort of unassuming, and
Speaker 1: it keeps e gooes in check. But it also probably
Speaker 1: it's a little negative to sometimes we chopped down our
Speaker 1: stars a little bit bringing back to earth. Your mates
Speaker 1: are always bringing you back to earth. Um, they're not
Speaker 1: letting get not let letting get your head of self,
Speaker 1: head of yourself too much. Like you go to the US,
Speaker 1: the newspapers make every golfer seem like just an unbelievably
Speaker 1: great golfer. Here even the best player is getting bagged
Speaker 1: because he buggy the seventeenth pole on Saturday and he
Speaker 1: really should have been to in front that at one
Speaker 1: in front. That really wasn't a very good effort, you know,
Speaker 1: whereas the US is how good is this golf? To
Speaker 1: what an unbelievable chance for these guys are black, you know.
Speaker 1: So it's just a different perspective we have. But it
Speaker 1: keeps everybody being a pretty decent bolk, you know. Um yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm men, look at Am and Leashman and Scotty, I
Speaker 1: mean and they're all pretty um, they're good humans to
Speaker 1: be around, no matter what they've done in the game.
Speaker 1: You know. There. I mean, Scotty has been incredible since
Speaker 1: he's one of the Masters. He's been back to Australia
Speaker 1: every year, there's been tournaments. He plays more than he
Speaker 1: needs to at in these modern worlds a massively discounted rate.
Speaker 1: He basically comes because he just he knows, like Clay says,
Speaker 1: like Tomo used to do, golf needs in Australia, golf needs.
Speaker 1: Adams got to come play and he feels that and
Speaker 1: he does it, you know, and most of the odsies
Speaker 1: are like that. So um, I think that side of
Speaker 1: things is all their mates. If you grow up around
Speaker 1: Australians very long, they'll keep you in your place. Voice
Speaker 1: of experience. Well, and he's what a mentor just sort
Speaker 1: of from mentoring, but just mentoring on a high level.
Speaker 1: He's like sort of like the godfather of Australian golf
Speaker 1: a little bit like he's um the one you ask
Speaker 1: if you've got any questions, and he to this day
Speaker 1: he is playing golf. These are all these days he
Speaker 1: plays golf. He's playing golfers with juniors, kids, anybody who
Speaker 1: loves golf, you'll play with him. You know, girls, guys, kids,
Speaker 1: growing ups, old people. He just plays golf. You're into golf,
Speaker 1: he'll go play with him. So there, he's had an
Speaker 1: incredible influence across sort of the elite golf landscape. Um,
Speaker 1: since he came back from Europe. So he came back
Speaker 1: from Europe. I think in the he stopped playing Europe
Speaker 1: sort of thing, maybe ninety eight and ever since then
Speaker 1: he's just been floating around Australia playing golfer golf courses
Speaker 1: and good golfers have been attracted to sort of playing
Speaker 1: with him. And he's the wisdom and experience and sort
Speaker 1: of pragmatic, no nonsense way he goes about explaining golf
Speaker 1: for these people. It's a little bit like Tomo. Mean
Speaker 1: Tomo was, there's only one Tomo. Tomo made a complicated thing,
Speaker 1: very very simple. Um. He made Peter Peter Fowler just
Speaker 1: a quick story about to Peter. It was a great
Speaker 1: young Australian player. Ended up playing well, still playing seniors
Speaker 1: tour in Europe and stuff. But he won the Australian
Speaker 1: Open I think three or eight eight three um, and
Speaker 1: he was about to head off to Europe or something,
Speaker 1: and he calls Peter and he goes, Peter, I really
Speaker 1: want to have a good year in Europe, and I
Speaker 1: want to sort of play well, and I just really
Speaker 1: think I need to get better. And what do you
Speaker 1: think I need to do to be a better professional golfer? Tom,
Speaker 1: I said, shoot lower scores. And that was it. But fundamentally,
Speaker 1: when you and you just think that's ridiculous, how rude
Speaker 1: is out, that's not a very good lesson. But the
Speaker 1: longer I've played golf, the more I realized that that's
Speaker 1: actually the only lesson you movement, just go and work
Speaker 1: out how to shoot lower scores. Um. That's how simple
Speaker 1: he viewed golf. It's like, well, if you're not going
Speaker 1: very well, just have have a few shots less and
Speaker 1: you'll be doing better, you know. Fantastic And Clacks is
Speaker 1: a little bit a little bit like he's a little
Speaker 1: bit like that with these guys. He doesn't let them
Speaker 1: complicate it. They keep it simple. Um. And if you
Speaker 1: spend any time around him, you'll lock golf more at
Speaker 1: the end of the day than you do at the stop.
Speaker 1: You can't end it any better than that, So, uh,
Speaker 1: great stuff. Um, all right, let's been another need of
Speaker 1: fourth Mike Clayton, fantastic guests we have, we have more coming,
Speaker 1: so thanks for listening. Um, I'm going to sign off
Speaker 1: for Michael Bambery or Jeff Ogilvie and Mike Clayton is
Speaker 1: salent ship Neck. But we appreciate you've been part of
Speaker 1: this podcast out there wherever you are, and well we'll
Speaker 1: keep bringing them to you. That's the end. Mm hmmm,
Speaker 1: h oh my god. It's a dangerous group here