1 00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:06,080 Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff mom never told you. From house to 2 00:00:06,240 --> 00:00:14,680 Speaker 1: works not cold. Hello, welcome to the podcast from Caroline 3 00:00:14,760 --> 00:00:18,640 Speaker 1: and I'm Kristen. And so we're talking about the the 4 00:00:18,680 --> 00:00:21,959 Speaker 1: internet phenomenon that literally everyone should be familiar with, which 5 00:00:21,960 --> 00:00:28,120 Speaker 1: is basically hashtag, humble brag, hashtag lucky girl, this whole 6 00:00:28,160 --> 00:00:32,160 Speaker 1: phenomenon of posting things on the Internet to make yourself 7 00:00:32,240 --> 00:00:34,800 Speaker 1: look great but not necessarily show off how much effort 8 00:00:34,800 --> 00:00:38,159 Speaker 1: went into it. And this really made me. I had 9 00:00:38,200 --> 00:00:42,320 Speaker 1: to have some some introspection, Kristen. I needed to think 10 00:00:42,440 --> 00:00:45,599 Speaker 1: back to figure out if I had done this, and 11 00:00:45,680 --> 00:00:49,440 Speaker 1: I think I was guilty of this, probably when I 12 00:00:49,479 --> 00:00:53,519 Speaker 1: was younger, like literally when Facebook first came out and 13 00:00:53,520 --> 00:00:57,480 Speaker 1: we were in college. Because we're so old, I feel 14 00:00:57,480 --> 00:01:01,200 Speaker 1: like it was much more common. And I say that 15 00:01:01,240 --> 00:01:03,480 Speaker 1: as if it's like someone other than myself. And I 16 00:01:03,560 --> 00:01:06,400 Speaker 1: think that now I'm so turned off when other people 17 00:01:06,440 --> 00:01:11,199 Speaker 1: do it online that I, as a grown person, try 18 00:01:11,240 --> 00:01:16,200 Speaker 1: to avoid bragging on the internet bragging or humble bragging. 19 00:01:16,360 --> 00:01:19,640 Speaker 1: Oh well, the humble brag, you know, like showing my 20 00:01:19,800 --> 00:01:24,760 Speaker 1: glamorous podcaster lifestyle on the internet just to make myself 21 00:01:24,840 --> 00:01:29,479 Speaker 1: look better. So in what ways would you humble bragg 22 00:01:29,640 --> 00:01:34,240 Speaker 1: on Facebook back in yielden days, the old two thousand four. 23 00:01:34,680 --> 00:01:36,360 Speaker 1: I don't know, I can't come up with like a 24 00:01:36,400 --> 00:01:41,480 Speaker 1: specific example, but um, but everybody knows that humble brag 25 00:01:41,520 --> 00:01:44,320 Speaker 1: if if if you haven't done it, you've seen it. 26 00:01:44,319 --> 00:01:48,560 Speaker 1: It's the kind of thing where you know, people are like, oh, 27 00:01:48,600 --> 00:01:51,360 Speaker 1: you know, I had to get up so early to 28 00:01:51,480 --> 00:01:58,920 Speaker 1: go win that marathon race today hashtag blast. I intentionally 29 00:01:59,760 --> 00:02:03,960 Speaker 1: de friended an X of mine years ago now because 30 00:02:04,840 --> 00:02:07,960 Speaker 1: I didn't want to yield to the temptation to turn 31 00:02:08,040 --> 00:02:12,120 Speaker 1: my Facebook into one big humble brag. Oh yeah, you're like, 32 00:02:12,160 --> 00:02:15,120 Speaker 1: look how fine I am. I'm just so great. Yeah. 33 00:02:15,240 --> 00:02:17,680 Speaker 1: I have a friend who will remain un named, who 34 00:02:17,720 --> 00:02:20,560 Speaker 1: recently went through a breakup. And and Kristen, she might 35 00:02:20,680 --> 00:02:23,880 Speaker 1: she's doing a little bit of that. Yeah, and and 36 00:02:23,880 --> 00:02:25,959 Speaker 1: and that's kind of what we're talking about. Like we 37 00:02:25,960 --> 00:02:28,080 Speaker 1: we we know the humble brag, we know the outright 38 00:02:28,120 --> 00:02:30,919 Speaker 1: bragging on social media, but it's this whole lucky girl 39 00:02:30,960 --> 00:02:34,920 Speaker 1: phenomenon of posting stuff on the Internet, whether it's a 40 00:02:34,919 --> 00:02:39,160 Speaker 1: picture on Instagram or a status on Facebook or Twitter. Um, 41 00:02:39,200 --> 00:02:43,079 Speaker 1: that looks great. You know, maybe your apple pick in 42 00:02:43,240 --> 00:02:47,440 Speaker 1: North Georgia or going through wine country in California, and 43 00:02:47,440 --> 00:02:50,359 Speaker 1: and it's beautiful and you've got a wonderful picture, but 44 00:02:50,800 --> 00:02:54,160 Speaker 1: you don't indicate what's going on behind the scenes. Maybe 45 00:02:54,200 --> 00:02:56,360 Speaker 1: you did go through a breakup. Maybe you had to 46 00:02:56,360 --> 00:02:59,399 Speaker 1: take fifty pictures for one to turn out right, you know, well, 47 00:02:59,440 --> 00:03:02,120 Speaker 1: and speaking of what's going on behind the scenes, did 48 00:03:02,120 --> 00:03:06,200 Speaker 1: you have to take fifty plus photos? This is very 49 00:03:06,240 --> 00:03:12,720 Speaker 1: reminiscent of what was happening earlier in November with social 50 00:03:12,760 --> 00:03:17,880 Speaker 1: media star a Sina O'Neill, who took herself off of 51 00:03:18,520 --> 00:03:22,640 Speaker 1: Instagram and all of her platforms because she fessed up 52 00:03:22,720 --> 00:03:26,920 Speaker 1: that it's all fake. Shocking. Yeah. Yeah, she said she 53 00:03:27,000 --> 00:03:30,320 Speaker 1: was tired of the whole you know, sponsored post rigamarole, 54 00:03:30,520 --> 00:03:33,799 Speaker 1: that she was tired of caring as a teenager. She's 55 00:03:33,840 --> 00:03:36,440 Speaker 1: really young. I think she's just eighteen now, she said, 56 00:03:36,480 --> 00:03:38,600 Speaker 1: you know, she was tired of being such a young 57 00:03:38,720 --> 00:03:43,400 Speaker 1: person whose entire life was dedicated to putting forth this front, 58 00:03:43,560 --> 00:03:49,480 Speaker 1: this hyper stylized, hyper fashioned, hyper dieted front, when really 59 00:03:49,640 --> 00:03:52,640 Speaker 1: none of that was giving her any happiness. That it 60 00:03:52,720 --> 00:03:57,800 Speaker 1: was portraying an amazing lifestyle. But then of course there's 61 00:03:57,800 --> 00:04:00,160 Speaker 1: a whole question that we're going to get into as 62 00:04:00,200 --> 00:04:04,080 Speaker 1: well of actually owning our success and being comfortable in 63 00:04:04,120 --> 00:04:07,040 Speaker 1: our success and achievements and good things that happened. Because 64 00:04:07,040 --> 00:04:11,720 Speaker 1: while I think it's totally responsible as an Internet person 65 00:04:11,880 --> 00:04:16,280 Speaker 1: to have your humble brag radar on and do what 66 00:04:16,320 --> 00:04:20,320 Speaker 1: you can to control your output of it, there's the 67 00:04:20,400 --> 00:04:23,600 Speaker 1: line between that and then being completely averse to any 68 00:04:23,640 --> 00:04:27,720 Speaker 1: type of self promotion or sharing good things to happen 69 00:04:27,760 --> 00:04:33,880 Speaker 1: because you don't want to seem like you're being too boastful. Yeah. Well, 70 00:04:33,920 --> 00:04:36,840 Speaker 1: so the article that I saw that got my wheels 71 00:04:36,880 --> 00:04:41,080 Speaker 1: turning on this within the Atlantic in September of this year, 72 00:04:41,680 --> 00:04:43,880 Speaker 1: and they were talking about this whole what they call 73 00:04:44,360 --> 00:04:49,520 Speaker 1: vi bating hashtag lucky Girl phenomenon um, and like we said, 74 00:04:49,560 --> 00:04:52,680 Speaker 1: this is basically just posting the fruits of your sometimes 75 00:04:52,920 --> 00:04:57,840 Speaker 1: very extensive labor or hardship without acknowledging the hard work 76 00:04:57,880 --> 00:05:01,720 Speaker 1: that went into making it. Whether this is getting engaged, 77 00:05:01,880 --> 00:05:05,240 Speaker 1: whether this is uh preparing a meal, you know, like 78 00:05:05,279 --> 00:05:08,040 Speaker 1: it could be anything. It could be small, large, significant, 79 00:05:08,120 --> 00:05:10,960 Speaker 1: or insignificant, but it's simply putting forth this image. Like 80 00:05:10,960 --> 00:05:13,520 Speaker 1: we said that everything's hunky dorry when perhaps he really 81 00:05:13,520 --> 00:05:15,680 Speaker 1: had to work for it well, And that's why when 82 00:05:15,720 --> 00:05:19,120 Speaker 1: I got engaged and shared it with my Facebook friends, 83 00:05:19,200 --> 00:05:22,800 Speaker 1: I first uploaded just a photographic montage of all the 84 00:05:22,880 --> 00:05:27,960 Speaker 1: fights and tears that my fiancee and I had experienced 85 00:05:27,960 --> 00:05:31,880 Speaker 1: in the previous couple of years, and like, it was 86 00:05:31,920 --> 00:05:35,040 Speaker 1: such a long walk down the Wall of China, you know, 87 00:05:35,279 --> 00:05:40,320 Speaker 1: an old wall of China, and how actually this is true. 88 00:05:40,480 --> 00:05:43,280 Speaker 1: How in the car ride do the Great Wall of 89 00:05:43,400 --> 00:05:47,800 Speaker 1: China where or podcast vans who are not aware that's 90 00:05:47,800 --> 00:05:51,039 Speaker 1: where my proposal took place. And it was amazing. But 91 00:05:51,320 --> 00:05:54,600 Speaker 1: I didn't think it was going to happen because in 92 00:05:54,720 --> 00:05:59,520 Speaker 1: the van ride there he was rasing me the whole time. 93 00:06:00,600 --> 00:06:04,560 Speaker 1: I was like, well, he's being very unromantic today, so 94 00:06:05,520 --> 00:06:11,520 Speaker 1: surely there's little bait and switch, little bit an affection 95 00:06:11,640 --> 00:06:15,520 Speaker 1: bait and switch. And don't think that academics haven't gotten 96 00:06:15,520 --> 00:06:17,719 Speaker 1: in on this because it is tied into so much 97 00:06:17,800 --> 00:06:20,479 Speaker 1: gendered stuff. You know, social media is so hot right now, 98 00:06:20,520 --> 00:06:23,920 Speaker 1: you guys. But they wrote that it reflects something deeper 99 00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:28,920 Speaker 1: and perhaps pernicious in contemporary culture, the pressure young women 100 00:06:29,040 --> 00:06:33,039 Speaker 1: feel to be effortlessly perfect, And they're citing a two 101 00:06:33,040 --> 00:06:37,040 Speaker 1: thousand three Duke University study that coined effortlessly Perfect. Although 102 00:06:37,040 --> 00:06:40,480 Speaker 1: I'm sure other people have said that phrase before. They 103 00:06:40,560 --> 00:06:42,719 Speaker 1: write that you have to have it all together, but 104 00:06:42,880 --> 00:06:45,720 Speaker 1: don't let them see you sweat. Doesn't it seem to 105 00:06:45,760 --> 00:06:51,960 Speaker 1: tie into the broader have it all goal, Well, for sure, 106 00:06:52,240 --> 00:06:56,279 Speaker 1: just all part of it um and Cosopaldian Magazine is 107 00:06:56,320 --> 00:07:00,200 Speaker 1: having none of it either. They recently talked to about 108 00:07:00,240 --> 00:07:04,520 Speaker 1: this hashtag lucky girl, which is super common on Instagram 109 00:07:04,560 --> 00:07:08,960 Speaker 1: in particular, and they described it as weirdly distancing and 110 00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:14,480 Speaker 1: its annoying refusal to take any credit, using the fictional 111 00:07:14,520 --> 00:07:18,960 Speaker 1: example of a girl who graduated and landed this amazing 112 00:07:19,040 --> 00:07:22,440 Speaker 1: job without noting that, oh, you know, I had all 113 00:07:22,480 --> 00:07:25,120 Speaker 1: these summer internships and how to do all this networking 114 00:07:25,360 --> 00:07:29,000 Speaker 1: and email like two hundred random people and finally got 115 00:07:29,040 --> 00:07:32,680 Speaker 1: this job. But instead all you see is hashtag lucky girl. Yeah, 116 00:07:32,680 --> 00:07:34,480 Speaker 1: and that's not to say that you know, you can't, 117 00:07:34,560 --> 00:07:36,640 Speaker 1: for instance, post a picture on the first day of 118 00:07:36,680 --> 00:07:39,520 Speaker 1: that new job and be super excited or whatever, but 119 00:07:39,600 --> 00:07:43,720 Speaker 1: it's that whole attributing everything to luck instead of and 120 00:07:44,000 --> 00:07:46,960 Speaker 1: not that you would necessarily say, like hashtag I had 121 00:07:47,000 --> 00:07:49,800 Speaker 1: to email two people to get this job. But it's 122 00:07:49,920 --> 00:07:54,240 Speaker 1: the it's the combination of not owning your own success 123 00:07:54,280 --> 00:07:59,520 Speaker 1: and hard work and also um portraying your life for 124 00:07:59,600 --> 00:08:03,000 Speaker 1: the event or whatever it is in a way that's like, oh, yeah, 125 00:08:03,040 --> 00:08:05,760 Speaker 1: you know me, I'm just so good at this hashtag 126 00:08:05,800 --> 00:08:11,040 Speaker 1: blast hashtag. Well, and there is a gendered element to 127 00:08:11,320 --> 00:08:14,920 Speaker 1: this social media good fortune as well, And this is 128 00:08:14,920 --> 00:08:16,600 Speaker 1: one of the reasons why, of course we wanted to 129 00:08:16,600 --> 00:08:19,840 Speaker 1: talk about it on Stuff Mom Never Told You Because 130 00:08:19,960 --> 00:08:26,280 Speaker 1: analytics company Crimson Hexagon looked at the statistics over the 131 00:08:26,360 --> 00:08:29,720 Speaker 1: past year and found that women on Twitter are the 132 00:08:29,760 --> 00:08:33,280 Speaker 1: ones using lucky fifty six percent of the time, and 133 00:08:33,360 --> 00:08:36,439 Speaker 1: that she gets up to sixty seven percent when it's 134 00:08:36,480 --> 00:08:41,000 Speaker 1: specifically in the first person. So I'm so lucky. And 135 00:08:41,040 --> 00:08:45,080 Speaker 1: it seems to be most common in the romantic arena, 136 00:08:45,679 --> 00:08:50,960 Speaker 1: So proposals, romantic dates. I don't know what else, What's 137 00:08:51,040 --> 00:08:56,679 Speaker 1: what is romantic swiping? Right? I don't know what do 138 00:08:56,760 --> 00:08:59,199 Speaker 1: people post? A lot of people post on the Internet. 139 00:08:59,240 --> 00:09:02,200 Speaker 1: I don't know. Um, well, so why why is it gendered? 140 00:09:02,200 --> 00:09:04,880 Speaker 1: Why is does it seem to be more women? The 141 00:09:04,920 --> 00:09:07,880 Speaker 1: Atlantic Sites author Rachel Simmons, who wrote the Curse of 142 00:09:07,920 --> 00:09:11,280 Speaker 1: the Good Girl, who says that it's about women's reluctance 143 00:09:11,360 --> 00:09:16,079 Speaker 1: to take ownership of their accomplishments, which Kristen to me, 144 00:09:16,360 --> 00:09:19,600 Speaker 1: sounds really familiar. Since you and I did an episode 145 00:09:20,360 --> 00:09:23,400 Speaker 1: about the impostor syndrome, we talked about Lenin, We've talked 146 00:09:23,679 --> 00:09:27,800 Speaker 1: in general just a lot about professional women who maybe 147 00:09:28,040 --> 00:09:31,000 Speaker 1: don't speak up enough for themselves, and so as part 148 00:09:31,000 --> 00:09:33,360 Speaker 1: of that, we've talked about how ladies are already less 149 00:09:33,360 --> 00:09:35,880 Speaker 1: likely to self promote and ask for more money, ask 150 00:09:35,920 --> 00:09:39,440 Speaker 1: for a raise, negotiate for a higher salary, and hand 151 00:09:39,440 --> 00:09:41,560 Speaker 1: in hand with that, they are more likely to give 152 00:09:41,600 --> 00:09:45,680 Speaker 1: credit to others. And so, speaking of Lenin, Cheryl Sandberg writes, 153 00:09:46,040 --> 00:09:48,320 Speaker 1: ask a man to explain a success, and he will 154 00:09:48,320 --> 00:09:52,280 Speaker 1: typically credit his own innate qualities and skills. Ask a 155 00:09:52,360 --> 00:09:55,319 Speaker 1: woman the same question, and she'll likely attribute her success 156 00:09:55,360 --> 00:09:59,240 Speaker 1: to external factors, insisting she did well because quote she 157 00:09:59,280 --> 00:10:02,320 Speaker 1: worked really whole hard, or got lucky, or had help 158 00:10:02,360 --> 00:10:05,199 Speaker 1: from others. So this sounds pretty related to what we're 159 00:10:05,240 --> 00:10:08,200 Speaker 1: talking about, absolutely, and it's not just Sandberg coming up 160 00:10:08,200 --> 00:10:10,240 Speaker 1: with that. I mean, there are so many studies in 161 00:10:10,320 --> 00:10:15,120 Speaker 1: both academic and workplace settings that corroborate this, and a 162 00:10:15,160 --> 00:10:18,520 Speaker 1: lot of it seems to route back to this likability 163 00:10:18,679 --> 00:10:22,720 Speaker 1: factor where women are often in this double bind, especially 164 00:10:22,760 --> 00:10:27,959 Speaker 1: if they are ambitious of wanting to succeed but also 165 00:10:28,040 --> 00:10:30,720 Speaker 1: wanting to remain likable at the same time. And unfortunately 166 00:10:30,720 --> 00:10:33,960 Speaker 1: those two things don't always go hand in hand thanks 167 00:10:34,000 --> 00:10:38,160 Speaker 1: to gender issues in work environments, and women especially for 168 00:10:38,280 --> 00:10:41,920 Speaker 1: that reason, don't want to appear to be bragging, if 169 00:10:41,920 --> 00:10:46,200 Speaker 1: not only to protect themselves from criticism, but also to 170 00:10:46,240 --> 00:10:51,520 Speaker 1: protect other people's feelings. They might not want to damage 171 00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:54,440 Speaker 1: a friend or partners ego. They might want to make 172 00:10:54,480 --> 00:10:57,959 Speaker 1: other feel other people feel comfortable around them, they want 173 00:10:57,960 --> 00:11:01,400 Speaker 1: to stay relatable. One of the articles we were reading 174 00:11:01,440 --> 00:11:03,360 Speaker 1: about this, I can't remember if it was in Forbes, 175 00:11:03,760 --> 00:11:07,720 Speaker 1: but they were interviewing a woman who was very successful 176 00:11:07,760 --> 00:11:09,959 Speaker 1: but also a very hard worker. I mean, things weren't 177 00:11:10,000 --> 00:11:12,120 Speaker 1: just handed to her. She wasn't just hashtag lucky. She 178 00:11:12,160 --> 00:11:15,080 Speaker 1: worked really hard. And she said she felt like she 179 00:11:15,120 --> 00:11:20,080 Speaker 1: couldn't publicly sort of enjoy the fruits of her labor. Uh, 180 00:11:20,120 --> 00:11:22,520 Speaker 1: you know, she felt like she couldn't carry the fancy 181 00:11:22,559 --> 00:11:25,400 Speaker 1: handbag out to dinner or by you know, the very 182 00:11:25,400 --> 00:11:27,679 Speaker 1: expensive meal off the menu. She felt like she kind 183 00:11:27,679 --> 00:11:30,120 Speaker 1: of had to, I guess, do the financial equivalent of 184 00:11:30,200 --> 00:11:32,959 Speaker 1: dumbing herself down. But the thing is that ended up, 185 00:11:33,280 --> 00:11:37,640 Speaker 1: she said, sparking sort of a cycle of well, I 186 00:11:37,640 --> 00:11:40,240 Speaker 1: don't want to brag about my success, but I at 187 00:11:40,280 --> 00:11:42,440 Speaker 1: least want to talk about it with my friends, And 188 00:11:42,480 --> 00:11:44,240 Speaker 1: the less I talk about it or feel I have 189 00:11:44,280 --> 00:11:46,880 Speaker 1: to hide it, the worst I feel about myself. And 190 00:11:46,920 --> 00:11:51,120 Speaker 1: so it creates this whole cycle of if you're not 191 00:11:51,440 --> 00:11:55,320 Speaker 1: self promoting, which that tends to have a negative connotation anyway, 192 00:11:55,360 --> 00:11:58,760 Speaker 1: but if you're not self promoting, then other people won't 193 00:11:58,760 --> 00:12:01,160 Speaker 1: know how great you are. So I mean, it is 194 00:12:01,200 --> 00:12:04,320 Speaker 1: a fine line, and it's especially fine for women who 195 00:12:04,520 --> 00:12:07,640 Speaker 1: statistically tend to be so much more nervous about coming 196 00:12:07,679 --> 00:12:10,800 Speaker 1: off as bragging or just coming off as you know, 197 00:12:11,000 --> 00:12:13,920 Speaker 1: I'm better than you somehow. And not only is there 198 00:12:13,960 --> 00:12:16,800 Speaker 1: that issue of our worries about other people's perceptions, but 199 00:12:16,960 --> 00:12:21,240 Speaker 1: also our own twisted perceptions of our own success. And 200 00:12:21,280 --> 00:12:27,199 Speaker 1: this really gets into imposter syndrome territory where we do 201 00:12:28,080 --> 00:12:31,960 Speaker 1: genuinely believe that we are lucky and nothing else because 202 00:12:32,000 --> 00:12:36,000 Speaker 1: we feel like we don't deserve the achievements and successes 203 00:12:36,440 --> 00:12:41,520 Speaker 1: that we've had, and this turns into this cycle where 204 00:12:41,600 --> 00:12:45,280 Speaker 1: you kind of can never self promote, which was something 205 00:12:45,360 --> 00:12:50,800 Speaker 1: that software engineer Natasha Muritia shared in Forbes. Yeah. She 206 00:12:50,840 --> 00:12:52,960 Speaker 1: wrote that if you believe that you've got a big 207 00:12:52,960 --> 00:12:56,679 Speaker 1: promotion because of luck rather than your hard work, you're 208 00:12:56,720 --> 00:12:59,280 Speaker 1: probably not going to feel right bragging about how much 209 00:12:59,280 --> 00:13:02,400 Speaker 1: you deserve the promotion and how awesome you are. Instead, 210 00:13:02,480 --> 00:13:04,640 Speaker 1: she writes, you're going to feel like a scam artist 211 00:13:04,640 --> 00:13:07,000 Speaker 1: who got lucky, and that you'd be lying if you 212 00:13:07,040 --> 00:13:10,960 Speaker 1: said you deserved it. So what is up with that? 213 00:13:11,360 --> 00:13:17,120 Speaker 1: What's the deal? The deal? Lucky Girls? Wait on? Caroline's 214 00:13:17,200 --> 00:13:22,120 Speaker 1: Jerry Seinfeld in the studio. He's always sneaking in here 215 00:13:22,160 --> 00:13:25,160 Speaker 1: under the stable. It's really uncomfortable. He like keeps asking 216 00:13:25,240 --> 00:13:27,679 Speaker 1: us to get in his car. I wish Elaine Bennet 217 00:13:27,800 --> 00:13:31,160 Speaker 1: would sneak into the studio from time to time. You 218 00:13:31,200 --> 00:13:33,880 Speaker 1: and me. Both she and I have similar dance moves. 219 00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:36,319 Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, me too. We just have a podcast 220 00:13:36,400 --> 00:13:39,600 Speaker 1: studio dance party. We're I think we are just clearly 221 00:13:39,600 --> 00:13:42,160 Speaker 1: outright bragging that our dance skills are as good as 222 00:13:42,160 --> 00:13:46,200 Speaker 1: Elaine benees they are as elbow and knee heavy as 223 00:13:46,240 --> 00:13:50,520 Speaker 1: all eb I know it, but seriously, what's up with 224 00:13:50,559 --> 00:13:52,480 Speaker 1: all that? And I'm not talking about our dance skills, 225 00:13:53,280 --> 00:13:56,760 Speaker 1: although perhaps we should. Uh yeah. Writing over at Forbes 226 00:13:56,800 --> 00:14:01,679 Speaker 1: in July, Peggy Drexler wrote that the scietal expectations for 227 00:14:01,720 --> 00:14:08,080 Speaker 1: female behavior traditionally and enduringly value modesty and collaboration. And 228 00:14:08,200 --> 00:14:11,200 Speaker 1: so even if you think, oh, we'll screw everybody, we 229 00:14:11,240 --> 00:14:14,559 Speaker 1: should feel confident in our abilities or in our accomplishments 230 00:14:14,640 --> 00:14:17,559 Speaker 1: or whatever, you would be foolish to think that women 231 00:14:18,200 --> 00:14:22,680 Speaker 1: don't internalize societal norms and expectations, especially things that have 232 00:14:22,760 --> 00:14:26,120 Speaker 1: been around forever. That women just need to quietly enjoy 233 00:14:26,120 --> 00:14:29,200 Speaker 1: baking at home, not that you can't. I like quietly 234 00:14:29,240 --> 00:14:32,720 Speaker 1: baking at home, baking and then taking endless photos of 235 00:14:32,760 --> 00:14:36,800 Speaker 1: your perfect baking right right, and just hashtag lucky the 236 00:14:36,800 --> 00:14:39,680 Speaker 1: eggs are really good today. I didn't even I barely 237 00:14:39,680 --> 00:14:43,720 Speaker 1: had to stir um well. And it doesn't help either 238 00:14:44,120 --> 00:14:49,760 Speaker 1: that pop culture enjoys the trope of the self deprecating 239 00:14:49,800 --> 00:14:55,360 Speaker 1: heroine or the charming but downdrawden woman, as as Drexler 240 00:14:55,640 --> 00:14:58,440 Speaker 1: points out, So what really struck me in comparing and 241 00:14:58,480 --> 00:15:01,400 Speaker 1: contrasting the whole like lucky are a humble, bragging social 242 00:15:01,440 --> 00:15:05,600 Speaker 1: media thing with the professional accomplishments thing, is that all 243 00:15:05,640 --> 00:15:08,560 Speaker 1: of those career articles that we just cited Kristen seem 244 00:15:08,640 --> 00:15:10,680 Speaker 1: to have a lot more to do with having a 245 00:15:10,760 --> 00:15:15,120 Speaker 1: chieved success through hard work, through effort, but not wanting 246 00:15:15,120 --> 00:15:18,760 Speaker 1: to seem like you're bragging about the success itself, when 247 00:15:18,840 --> 00:15:21,360 Speaker 1: really you have every reason to be pleased with yourself 248 00:15:21,400 --> 00:15:24,800 Speaker 1: and to be confident about the work you've done. Whereas 249 00:15:24,840 --> 00:15:28,280 Speaker 1: the social media lucky girl stuff, on the other hand, 250 00:15:28,320 --> 00:15:30,960 Speaker 1: seems like to me that it's putting the success on 251 00:15:31,080 --> 00:15:34,640 Speaker 1: display but then downplaying the effort so that everyone is 252 00:15:34,680 --> 00:15:38,960 Speaker 1: aware of when you're successful or when something awesome is happening, 253 00:15:40,120 --> 00:15:43,000 Speaker 1: without being aware that behind the scenes you could very 254 00:15:43,040 --> 00:15:46,360 Speaker 1: well be struggling, yeah, or that it just requires a 255 00:15:46,560 --> 00:15:51,920 Speaker 1: lot of work. Allah Sena O'Neill taking a bazillion photos 256 00:15:52,080 --> 00:15:57,960 Speaker 1: just to get one where her collar bone looks especially perfect, Well, yeah, exactly, 257 00:15:58,000 --> 00:16:00,160 Speaker 1: and I mean yes, of course she is lucky in 258 00:16:00,320 --> 00:16:03,080 Speaker 1: the literal traditional sense of the word, because she's getting 259 00:16:03,360 --> 00:16:06,680 Speaker 1: or was getting free stuff from designers to wear on 260 00:16:06,760 --> 00:16:09,560 Speaker 1: her blog. But on the other hand, what we didn't see, 261 00:16:10,080 --> 00:16:13,400 Speaker 1: uh is Yeah, like Kristin said, all of the work 262 00:16:13,560 --> 00:16:15,360 Speaker 1: that went into it, that she had to make her 263 00:16:15,360 --> 00:16:17,960 Speaker 1: sister take five pictures of her in a single dress. 264 00:16:18,040 --> 00:16:19,920 Speaker 1: Do we think that that these are the same women 265 00:16:19,960 --> 00:16:24,480 Speaker 1: doing both things at various times where we might be 266 00:16:25,640 --> 00:16:29,520 Speaker 1: curating almost to keep to keep up with this social 267 00:16:29,520 --> 00:16:33,520 Speaker 1: media lingo that we're kind of curating how we display 268 00:16:33,600 --> 00:16:38,680 Speaker 1: our effort versus success and maybe the audience where it's 269 00:16:38,720 --> 00:16:43,960 Speaker 1: okay to show portray success, whatever that might be, whether 270 00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:46,720 Speaker 1: it's success in the sense of being very beautiful or 271 00:16:46,840 --> 00:16:52,960 Speaker 1: very adventurous, or successum in a more professional setting. I'm sure. 272 00:16:53,000 --> 00:16:55,040 Speaker 1: I mean, I'm sure in the Venn diagram of all 273 00:16:55,040 --> 00:16:58,760 Speaker 1: of this stuff is absolutely overlaps. But I do think 274 00:16:58,760 --> 00:17:03,320 Speaker 1: the motivations are pretty different. I think that um not 275 00:17:03,440 --> 00:17:05,719 Speaker 1: wanting to make your friends. Maybe you're you don't want 276 00:17:05,720 --> 00:17:08,080 Speaker 1: to make your unemployed friend feel uncomfortable by talking about 277 00:17:08,080 --> 00:17:11,760 Speaker 1: your incredible rays at work, UM, so you kind of 278 00:17:11,840 --> 00:17:13,919 Speaker 1: hide that even though you should be very proud of it. 279 00:17:14,280 --> 00:17:19,560 Speaker 1: Whereas if you're posting all of these vacation pictures from 280 00:17:19,560 --> 00:17:23,359 Speaker 1: a tropical location and you're like, oh, you know, I 281 00:17:23,480 --> 00:17:28,320 Speaker 1: just just landed in Bali so jet lag, hashtag lass, 282 00:17:28,400 --> 00:17:32,480 Speaker 1: hashtag lucky. You know, it's like the motivations, they're different. 283 00:17:32,800 --> 00:17:35,400 Speaker 1: I got a hunch. I've got a stuff mom ever 284 00:17:35,520 --> 00:17:42,440 Speaker 1: told you hunch. Why that is why posting your vacation 285 00:17:42,520 --> 00:17:47,600 Speaker 1: photos and food photos and beauty picks, etcetera, without showing 286 00:17:47,600 --> 00:17:51,400 Speaker 1: the effort behind it is more acceptable because that's more 287 00:17:51,440 --> 00:17:56,639 Speaker 1: feminine gendered leisure time, cooking, being beautiful, curating your image 288 00:17:56,640 --> 00:17:59,959 Speaker 1: just are all things that we expect of the tradition 289 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:05,720 Speaker 1: an old feminine role, whereas things like ambition raises, leaning 290 00:18:05,880 --> 00:18:12,159 Speaker 1: in in the boardroom are still transgressive in some ways 291 00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:17,560 Speaker 1: to feminine gender roles. Yeah, so maybe it feels more dangerous. Absolutely, 292 00:18:17,600 --> 00:18:19,000 Speaker 1: it could. You don't want to you don't want to 293 00:18:19,040 --> 00:18:21,920 Speaker 1: be threatening to those around you, whether it's friends, partners, 294 00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:26,080 Speaker 1: or even you know, fellow coworkers or whatever. Um. And 295 00:18:26,080 --> 00:18:29,480 Speaker 1: then I mean as far as like the vacation pictures 296 00:18:29,480 --> 00:18:32,800 Speaker 1: and hashtag lucky, like, yes, it could be that that's 297 00:18:32,800 --> 00:18:35,119 Speaker 1: a traditionally feminine thing. It could also be that some 298 00:18:35,160 --> 00:18:37,719 Speaker 1: of these people are jerks and they just want to 299 00:18:37,760 --> 00:18:40,359 Speaker 1: find They're going to find a way to brag about 300 00:18:40,400 --> 00:18:44,560 Speaker 1: what they're doing. It's just that bragging is such an 301 00:18:44,640 --> 00:18:49,040 Speaker 1: unfeminine thing to do traditionally and socially, and so they've 302 00:18:49,080 --> 00:18:52,879 Speaker 1: almost got to hide the brag, or seem to be 303 00:18:52,960 --> 00:18:57,080 Speaker 1: attempting to hide the brag behind, whether it's a humble 304 00:18:57,119 --> 00:19:00,760 Speaker 1: brag or whether it's just saying that you lucked out 305 00:19:00,800 --> 00:19:04,320 Speaker 1: instead of you know, no, you paid for that plane ticket, 306 00:19:04,359 --> 00:19:06,040 Speaker 1: you saved up for months, and then you flew to 307 00:19:06,119 --> 00:19:10,119 Speaker 1: Bolly by yourself. You're alone in Bolly, Gosh darn it, 308 00:19:10,520 --> 00:19:13,760 Speaker 1: you eat pray love, You're crying in that cocktail. But 309 00:19:14,080 --> 00:19:17,240 Speaker 1: what really fascinates me with all of this is how, 310 00:19:17,560 --> 00:19:22,840 Speaker 1: especially the hashtag lucky Girl, is a product of this 311 00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:29,680 Speaker 1: very lady mag promoted idea of effortlessness. I mean, how 312 00:19:29,720 --> 00:19:35,280 Speaker 1: many fashion spreads have we seen in our favorite fashion 313 00:19:35,320 --> 00:19:39,960 Speaker 1: magazines have ways to look effortlessly attractive and on trend 314 00:19:40,119 --> 00:19:44,200 Speaker 1: this season. Now, when I literally do the effortless thing, 315 00:19:44,320 --> 00:19:48,040 Speaker 1: so I literally put no effort into what I'm doing, Um, 316 00:19:48,080 --> 00:19:52,359 Speaker 1: it's terrifying. And people get this concerned look on their face, like, 317 00:19:52,720 --> 00:19:55,880 Speaker 1: oh God, have you just been evicted? You know, like 318 00:19:56,080 --> 00:19:59,080 Speaker 1: I am. I didn't do my hair yesterday at all, 319 00:19:59,119 --> 00:20:00,879 Speaker 1: Like I might have run a brush through it. But 320 00:20:01,080 --> 00:20:04,560 Speaker 1: I basically woke up hashtag woke up like this and 321 00:20:04,680 --> 00:20:09,560 Speaker 1: my this is like frizzed hair out to hear arms 322 00:20:09,560 --> 00:20:14,160 Speaker 1: super wide, you know, no makeup, dark circles under my eyes. 323 00:20:14,280 --> 00:20:17,880 Speaker 1: That is my effortless And as l Magazine pointed out, 324 00:20:17,960 --> 00:20:21,640 Speaker 1: and a really kind of funny and interesting spread they did, 325 00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:26,040 Speaker 1: it costs so much money to look quote unquote effortless, 326 00:20:26,119 --> 00:20:28,840 Speaker 1: not homeless, which is what I look like yesterday. It's 327 00:20:28,840 --> 00:20:31,720 Speaker 1: our Whole Athlesia podcast and how you have these high 328 00:20:31,760 --> 00:20:34,760 Speaker 1: end designers getting into Athletisia where just so that we 329 00:20:34,800 --> 00:20:37,800 Speaker 1: can look as if we might be going to the gym. 330 00:20:37,960 --> 00:20:40,000 Speaker 1: Oh I know, I gave this woman in Whole Foods 331 00:20:40,040 --> 00:20:43,400 Speaker 1: the side eyed today, Uh not intentionally but like literally 332 00:20:43,440 --> 00:20:45,200 Speaker 1: just trying not to look directly at her because I 333 00:20:45,240 --> 00:20:48,159 Speaker 1: didn't want to be creep. But she was totally in 334 00:20:48,240 --> 00:20:52,720 Speaker 1: line at Whole Foods wearing the full like yoga uniform. 335 00:20:52,760 --> 00:20:56,560 Speaker 1: But and I don't mean to be a judgy b word, 336 00:20:56,920 --> 00:21:00,400 Speaker 1: but like full face of makeup, like heavy, heavy, full 337 00:21:00,440 --> 00:21:03,600 Speaker 1: face of makeup with lashes and everything. And I was like, 338 00:21:04,920 --> 00:21:08,480 Speaker 1: I bet she's doing the athleasure thing. You're going home 339 00:21:08,560 --> 00:21:11,879 Speaker 1: after this and you haven't been to the gym, or 340 00:21:11,880 --> 00:21:14,160 Speaker 1: maybe she's going to pure bar who knows you gotta 341 00:21:14,160 --> 00:21:18,560 Speaker 1: look goods well. And speaking of makeup, it also reminds 342 00:21:18,560 --> 00:21:21,439 Speaker 1: me of the whole no makeup makeup trend, where the 343 00:21:21,480 --> 00:21:24,479 Speaker 1: whole thing is to spend a lot of time making 344 00:21:24,760 --> 00:21:27,440 Speaker 1: your face look as flawless as possible with a lot 345 00:21:27,440 --> 00:21:30,399 Speaker 1: of makeup, but not looking like you have much makeup on. 346 00:21:30,560 --> 00:21:33,280 Speaker 1: And ps, I have not mastered it yet. Yeah, I'm 347 00:21:33,320 --> 00:21:36,240 Speaker 1: just going with the no makeup. No, literally, there's no makeup. 348 00:21:37,280 --> 00:21:41,680 Speaker 1: Look now, I have to put on enough concealer to 349 00:21:41,920 --> 00:21:44,880 Speaker 1: not look like a broken out thirteen year old girl. 350 00:21:45,520 --> 00:21:47,679 Speaker 1: And then because I've put on so much concealer, and 351 00:21:47,680 --> 00:21:50,359 Speaker 1: I'm already very pale, as my mother liked to remind 352 00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:52,400 Speaker 1: me all while I was growing up. I know I've 353 00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:54,200 Speaker 1: told you before that my mother always used to tell 354 00:21:54,200 --> 00:21:58,480 Speaker 1: me that I needed more blusher. So if I don't 355 00:21:58,480 --> 00:22:03,600 Speaker 1: want to look dead, I've forgot it, then put blush pond. 356 00:22:03,760 --> 00:22:06,399 Speaker 1: But then if I'm nothing but like a white sheet 357 00:22:06,520 --> 00:22:09,120 Speaker 1: with two red dots on my cheeks, well, now I've 358 00:22:09,160 --> 00:22:11,000 Speaker 1: kind of put on mascare so that you can at 359 00:22:11,080 --> 00:22:13,360 Speaker 1: least see that I have eyeball. You kind of get 360 00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:17,960 Speaker 1: that marionette look excessive blusher. I mean I do draw 361 00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:20,080 Speaker 1: the lines from my lips over the corner of my 362 00:22:20,119 --> 00:22:22,200 Speaker 1: mouth down to my chin, so I look like a puppet. 363 00:22:22,240 --> 00:22:26,480 Speaker 1: That's just that's natural. Well, and how in that l 364 00:22:26,600 --> 00:22:30,080 Speaker 1: magazine spread that you were just referencing, what do they do? 365 00:22:30,119 --> 00:22:34,080 Speaker 1: They added up all of the costs of these effortless 366 00:22:34,160 --> 00:22:38,520 Speaker 1: and quotes outfits like at leisurely outfits, all the drap 367 00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:45,720 Speaker 1: shirts and sneakers and vegan leather leggings and the cold 368 00:22:45,760 --> 00:22:49,320 Speaker 1: press juices and all the things, all the various things, 369 00:22:50,760 --> 00:22:54,879 Speaker 1: and uh, rounded it up to it costing over what 370 00:22:55,040 --> 00:22:59,400 Speaker 1: like one fifteen thousand dollars a year to look effortless. Yeah, 371 00:22:59,480 --> 00:23:02,159 Speaker 1: that's if you want to do all of the stuff 372 00:23:02,160 --> 00:23:04,560 Speaker 1: that they've broken down, all the lotions and the potions, 373 00:23:04,560 --> 00:23:06,760 Speaker 1: and the hair creams and the face creams and and 374 00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:09,199 Speaker 1: the clothes and on the watches and all that stuff. 375 00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:13,760 Speaker 1: But they think they tallied up like just one maybe 376 00:23:13,800 --> 00:23:16,080 Speaker 1: one week's worth of outfits and stuff like that, and 377 00:23:16,160 --> 00:23:19,160 Speaker 1: it's still came to fifty grand. I mean, if you've 378 00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:22,520 Speaker 1: got the designer boyfriend jeans, the designer tunic the designer 379 00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:27,800 Speaker 1: calftan over a designer calftan. But I'll know I've made it, Captain, 380 00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:31,040 Speaker 1: I long for it. Um. But yeah, and so they 381 00:23:31,080 --> 00:23:33,280 Speaker 1: make an interesting point though, they say it's probably no 382 00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:38,679 Speaker 1: coincidence that during this moment culturally of unprecedented buzziness or 383 00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:41,359 Speaker 1: at least perceived business, because I think we've talked before, 384 00:23:41,440 --> 00:23:44,480 Speaker 1: right about how we're just in this age of like, 385 00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:48,040 Speaker 1: I'm working so late. Everybody's bragging about working all the 386 00:23:48,080 --> 00:23:51,000 Speaker 1: time even when they're not. Uh. They say, this new 387 00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:56,119 Speaker 1: aspirational lifestyle is one marked by leisure and ease. Unfortunately, 388 00:23:56,200 --> 00:23:58,880 Speaker 1: looking effortless is not making us less busy or any 389 00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:01,400 Speaker 1: richer or less and to here, for that matter, our 390 00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:05,359 Speaker 1: era of sartorial and corporeal nonchalance rests on a myths 391 00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:08,720 Speaker 1: that looking natural and being low maintenance are one and 392 00:24:08,760 --> 00:24:11,120 Speaker 1: the same. But they write for most of us who 393 00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:16,199 Speaker 1: weren't born hashtag blessed, they are definitely not. And speaking 394 00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:20,320 Speaker 1: of hashtag blessed, it made me oh so happy when 395 00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:26,119 Speaker 1: in May, uh The New York Times published a trend 396 00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:30,960 Speaker 1: piece on hashtag blessed by friend of the podcast Jessica Bennett, 397 00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:35,240 Speaker 1: who described it as quote invoking holiness as a way 398 00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:39,439 Speaker 1: to brag about your life, and hashtag blessed is, you know, 399 00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:41,919 Speaker 1: sort of the evolution of the humble brag, where it's like, 400 00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:44,680 Speaker 1: I'm so aware of what I'm doing, and sometimes hashtag 401 00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:49,439 Speaker 1: blessed is your use in purely comedic forms. Um, I 402 00:24:49,520 --> 00:24:52,520 Speaker 1: have I've done that before. Whether people have laughed at it, 403 00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:55,359 Speaker 1: I don't know. On Twitter, that's how I first became 404 00:24:55,400 --> 00:24:58,240 Speaker 1: familiar with hashtag. The concept of hashtag bless is not 405 00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:01,560 Speaker 1: literally Christen Conger hashtaging left, but the idea of just 406 00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:05,280 Speaker 1: like what I know, just the idea of someone being like, 407 00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:07,879 Speaker 1: you know, I picked my sandwich up off the floor 408 00:25:07,920 --> 00:25:11,760 Speaker 1: and it was still edible hashtag blessed. I wasn't. I think. 409 00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:14,560 Speaker 1: I don't know if this gives away too much about 410 00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:16,800 Speaker 1: the type of people I follow on social media, but 411 00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:21,400 Speaker 1: I wasn't and I'm still not following anyone who legitimately 412 00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:25,240 Speaker 1: says that they are blessed because those people are out there, 413 00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:28,320 Speaker 1: I think by this point, especially considering this piece came 414 00:25:28,359 --> 00:25:31,960 Speaker 1: out in which is like a bazillion years ago and 415 00:25:32,119 --> 00:25:37,639 Speaker 1: Twitter years. Um, if you are actually using hashtag blessed 416 00:25:37,680 --> 00:25:41,920 Speaker 1: in a non religious meaning I think you haven't caught 417 00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:48,320 Speaker 1: onto the internet and how it speaks. Yeah, I mean 418 00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:52,560 Speaker 1: so Bennett's writing about how, in that period that snapshot 419 00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:57,000 Speaker 1: of time in everybody in her Twitter feed, on her 420 00:25:57,000 --> 00:26:01,200 Speaker 1: Facebook wall, everybody's hashtag blessed about something, anything from being 421 00:26:01,240 --> 00:26:05,240 Speaker 1: accepted to grad school, uh, to getting tickets to fashion 422 00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:08,159 Speaker 1: Week to going on SPA weekends, you know, and like, 423 00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:12,159 Speaker 1: I get it. I get the sarcastic hashtag blessed. And 424 00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:15,720 Speaker 1: I'm cool with like the religious, like actual Christian grandmother 425 00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:19,600 Speaker 1: saying she's blessed for one of the tweets hashtag blast. 426 00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:23,720 Speaker 1: I'm cool when the pope does it. But it's that 427 00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:27,080 Speaker 1: like middle ground of just just stop, just stop. I'm oh, 428 00:26:27,119 --> 00:26:31,439 Speaker 1: I'm so look at my manicure hashtag blessed. Well, and 429 00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:38,359 Speaker 1: it's so transparent um and Bennett talked to noted linguists 430 00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:41,359 Speaker 1: Deborah Tannin about it, who said that what makes these 431 00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:46,240 Speaker 1: examples humble brags isn't the blessed itself, but the context, 432 00:26:46,359 --> 00:26:49,560 Speaker 1: because what you're really doing is telling the world, for instance, 433 00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:51,719 Speaker 1: that maybe your fiance is the best, or you've been 434 00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:54,639 Speaker 1: invited to do something impressive, or you have this beautiful 435 00:26:55,640 --> 00:26:59,960 Speaker 1: elongated fingers. If you're saying hashtag blessed about your manny pet, 436 00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:06,000 Speaker 1: do you know I'm going to admit something embarrassing. It 437 00:27:06,040 --> 00:27:08,520 Speaker 1: has little to do little to nothing to do with 438 00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:14,320 Speaker 1: humble brags and hashtag bless But so I am ridiculously clumsy, 439 00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:17,480 Speaker 1: especially when it comes to sharp objects. And I've cut 440 00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:23,080 Speaker 1: several fingers on my right hand and the other day, Uh, 441 00:27:23,119 --> 00:27:26,639 Speaker 1: the only band aids in my direct vicinity were red 442 00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:29,159 Speaker 1: band aids with white high heels all over them, and 443 00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:32,440 Speaker 1: so I had my hands covered in these like hilariously 444 00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:36,480 Speaker 1: lady terrific band aids, and I thought like, this is hysterical. 445 00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:37,919 Speaker 1: I'm going to take a picture and post this to 446 00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:40,240 Speaker 1: Instagram like this is really funny, and so I did, 447 00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:47,520 Speaker 1: but I was like, my fingers look fat. You deleted 448 00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:50,159 Speaker 1: it well, and I still have the picture, but I 449 00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:53,320 Speaker 1: didn't post it. I didn't post it to Instagram listeners. 450 00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:56,639 Speaker 1: I saw the band aids and I loved them. Kristen 451 00:27:56,760 --> 00:27:59,560 Speaker 1: was like, what did you do to yourself? And where 452 00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:02,080 Speaker 1: did you get those band aids? I don't know. I 453 00:28:02,119 --> 00:28:04,440 Speaker 1: think they were my Christmas stocking or something. It looked 454 00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:09,360 Speaker 1: like they would come with like Barbie, Oh my god, 455 00:28:09,359 --> 00:28:11,280 Speaker 1: they came in one of those tins you know that's 456 00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:16,240 Speaker 1: like lady emergency. Oh lord. But I was like I 457 00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:18,119 Speaker 1: kind of opened the tin. I was like, I'm just 458 00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:20,239 Speaker 1: I need band aids. I'm covered in cuts from like 459 00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:23,000 Speaker 1: cooking dinner and trying to open a box from Amazon. 460 00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:31,080 Speaker 1: Talking about hashtag blast. But so back to linguist Deborah Tannin, Uh, 461 00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:34,840 Speaker 1: she's right on the money. Humble bragging is a million 462 00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:39,200 Speaker 1: percent transparent, and it just makes you look like a jerk. 463 00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:42,800 Speaker 1: According to science. It's not just Christian and me, it's science. 464 00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:48,360 Speaker 1: According to a study in psychological Science, in humble braggers 465 00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:53,760 Speaker 1: overestimate positive responses and underestimate negative ones to their posts 466 00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:57,080 Speaker 1: thanks to an empathy gap. It sounds like a bunch 467 00:28:57,080 --> 00:29:01,240 Speaker 1: of psychopaths. Uh. This is basically not putting themselves in 468 00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:03,800 Speaker 1: other shoes. So, for instance, a humble bragger might see 469 00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:07,640 Speaker 1: someone else online humble bragging and being like so tacky. 470 00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:09,480 Speaker 1: I don't like that at all. But when it comes 471 00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:12,360 Speaker 1: to them humble bragging about a vacation or a new car, 472 00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:14,880 Speaker 1: whatever it is, they're like, people are going to be 473 00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:16,520 Speaker 1: so happy for me, but I don't want to out 474 00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:18,200 Speaker 1: and out bragg because I don't want to be a jerk, 475 00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:19,880 Speaker 1: so I'm just kind of kind of like humble brag, 476 00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:21,760 Speaker 1: you know, that kind of thing. So they get a 477 00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:25,520 Speaker 1: vanity plate for their new car that's hashtag like LK 478 00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:29,360 Speaker 1: Y g R L Instagram that, oh god, you know 479 00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:32,280 Speaker 1: that exists. I'm sure it does because I own it, 480 00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:38,320 Speaker 1: because it's me, my dented hatchbag. That that is true. 481 00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:43,840 Speaker 1: I'm not even jerking about the hatchbag part and the dents, right, No, 482 00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:45,920 Speaker 1: I would never leave out the dents. But speaking of 483 00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:50,160 Speaker 1: a dented hatchbag, is this a decent segue into the 484 00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:53,760 Speaker 1: hot mess humble brag to and how we see this 485 00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:58,680 Speaker 1: propped up in pop culture? And Caroline, we were having stuff. Mom, 486 00:29:58,760 --> 00:30:03,040 Speaker 1: never told you mental synchronicity somehow, because right before you 487 00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:06,600 Speaker 1: sent me this slate piece examining this whole hot mess 488 00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:10,720 Speaker 1: phenomenon that we see among our fave Hollywood starlets and 489 00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:13,840 Speaker 1: the women they portray on screen, a girlfriend of mine 490 00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:17,760 Speaker 1: sent me a similar piece over at Salon, basically being like, 491 00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:22,600 Speaker 1: what's up with this whole self deprecating hot mess situation? 492 00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:25,320 Speaker 1: Which I feel like was really exemplified by Liz Lemon 493 00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:27,800 Speaker 1: on thirty Rock originally because here we have a super 494 00:30:27,800 --> 00:30:30,239 Speaker 1: successful woman. Is us like such a hot mess in 495 00:30:30,280 --> 00:30:35,520 Speaker 1: so many ways? But we see it more off screen 496 00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:39,840 Speaker 1: with a lot of stars today as well. Yeah, just 497 00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:43,920 Speaker 1: a lot of women who are it's it's it goes 498 00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:46,160 Speaker 1: back to that relatability thing that we mentioned earlier, with 499 00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:50,440 Speaker 1: the whole professional woman thing of of enjoying great success 500 00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:53,760 Speaker 1: and being you know, multi hyphen it's maybe these celebrities 501 00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:56,920 Speaker 1: are writers and actresses and producers and directors, who knows 502 00:30:56,920 --> 00:31:00,280 Speaker 1: what they are, but still they aim for relative hility 503 00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:02,840 Speaker 1: by talking about, Oh I drank too much. You know, 504 00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:06,520 Speaker 1: I had a bad sex the other night. I never exercise. Yeah, 505 00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:10,040 Speaker 1: god I love pizza, you know, just like say stars, 506 00:31:10,040 --> 00:31:14,160 Speaker 1: they're just like us. But Eileen Giselle at Slate in 507 00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:18,360 Speaker 1: August was not having any of it, not having any 508 00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:21,400 Speaker 1: of it at all. She was talking about how bragging 509 00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:25,280 Speaker 1: about being a hot mess, because that's that's essentially kind 510 00:31:25,280 --> 00:31:27,440 Speaker 1: of what it is. It's another way of bragging about 511 00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:30,600 Speaker 1: like I'm so busy and I'm so accomplished. Basically, Giselle 512 00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:32,840 Speaker 1: is arguing, like, look how busy I am. Look how 513 00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:36,040 Speaker 1: complicated and complex my life is, Uh, that I even 514 00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:37,600 Speaker 1: have time to sit here and talk to you. I 515 00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:39,600 Speaker 1: haven't even brushed my hair. Oh my god, am I 516 00:31:39,640 --> 00:31:42,720 Speaker 1: bragging about being a hot mess? Conger? I just talked 517 00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:45,560 Speaker 1: about not brushing my hair. Um. But she says that 518 00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:49,320 Speaker 1: it's become this badge of honor for virtually all successful 519 00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:54,560 Speaker 1: Caucasian women between twenty and forty um, and that was 520 00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:56,840 Speaker 1: one of her big bones to pick with the hot 521 00:31:56,880 --> 00:31:59,880 Speaker 1: mess trends. She's like basically saying that it's only the 522 00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:05,040 Speaker 1: is super privileged successful white women who have the luxury 523 00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:08,320 Speaker 1: of complaining about being a hot mess and drawing attention 524 00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:11,800 Speaker 1: to their screw ups, whether it's a fashion choice or 525 00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:15,000 Speaker 1: a job choice or a life choice. Where she argues, 526 00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:20,800 Speaker 1: women of color, uh feel more compelled to not brag, 527 00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:24,160 Speaker 1: but just emphasize their success so that they are taken seriously. 528 00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:28,120 Speaker 1: She writes, successful women of color are painfully aware that 529 00:32:28,240 --> 00:32:33,160 Speaker 1: public conceptions of their race presume hot mess status, and 530 00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:36,960 Speaker 1: she gives the example of Lena Dunham interviewing Carrie Washington 531 00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:41,760 Speaker 1: for I think it was Murray Claire and how Carrie 532 00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:45,360 Speaker 1: Washington was on the cover and the headline was something like, oh, 533 00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:48,800 Speaker 1: we all want to be Carrie Washington. And meanwhile, Lena 534 00:32:48,840 --> 00:32:52,040 Speaker 1: Dunham herself is obviously very successful, a very hard worker, 535 00:32:52,120 --> 00:32:55,120 Speaker 1: like an over worker, overachiever. You know, she's got She's 536 00:32:55,240 --> 00:32:57,760 Speaker 1: definitely a multi hyphen it. And so it just all 537 00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:00,680 Speaker 1: writes that hyper successful white women can at about being 538 00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:04,240 Speaker 1: clueless messes all Elina Dunham, while black women all like 539 00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:08,880 Speaker 1: Carry Washington are turned into what she calls surrogate philosophics. 540 00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:13,680 Speaker 1: So being a hot mess is a byproduct of white privilege. 541 00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:17,400 Speaker 1: That's what Gazelle is arguing. You should have read the 542 00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:20,160 Speaker 1: comments section under it. No, actually you shouldn't have. You 543 00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:23,120 Speaker 1: tell me about it. What were the comments, like, um, well, no, 544 00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:25,440 Speaker 1: the comments were all over the place, as one might 545 00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:27,640 Speaker 1: expect for anything on the internet, but a lot of 546 00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:31,360 Speaker 1: people were coming to say, um, so we can't have 547 00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:34,480 Speaker 1: a bad day and just like complain about not having 548 00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:36,600 Speaker 1: time to brush our hair because we've got so much 549 00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:40,240 Speaker 1: work to do or something like that, and um, you know, 550 00:33:40,320 --> 00:33:42,880 Speaker 1: I don't know if Gizell does have an answer for it, 551 00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:45,720 Speaker 1: or did at the time, but I kind of came 552 00:33:45,760 --> 00:33:48,320 Speaker 1: away from that article feeling the same way of like, yeah, 553 00:33:48,320 --> 00:33:51,680 Speaker 1: I totally can see that how culturally it tends to 554 00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:55,920 Speaker 1: be like young hot white actresses who like the adorable 555 00:33:55,960 --> 00:33:59,760 Speaker 1: and very talented Anna Kendrick, who like loves to call 556 00:33:59,840 --> 00:34:01,720 Speaker 1: her your self a hot mess. And I can see 557 00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:03,280 Speaker 1: how that is sort of a humble brag of like, 558 00:34:03,320 --> 00:34:06,720 Speaker 1: Anna Kendrick, You're so amazing and adorable and successful, and 559 00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:09,960 Speaker 1: you're sitting here, like even telling your interviewer to refer 560 00:34:10,040 --> 00:34:12,160 Speaker 1: to you as a hot mess and interviews, and so 561 00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:15,440 Speaker 1: Giselle is saying, like, this is such a young white 562 00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:19,120 Speaker 1: woman thing. But meanwhile, you've also got Tracy Ellis Ross, 563 00:34:19,160 --> 00:34:23,000 Speaker 1: who's a woman of color, obviously uh successful actress, amazing 564 00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:26,640 Speaker 1: person who refers to herself as a hot mess two 565 00:34:26,640 --> 00:34:29,359 Speaker 1: in the media. And so I kind of came away 566 00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:31,719 Speaker 1: from that article being like, I don't know, I think 567 00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:36,480 Speaker 1: this is an equal opportunity descriptor a self descriptor anyway. 568 00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:38,400 Speaker 1: But I mean, I see her point. You know, she 569 00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:41,560 Speaker 1: also points out that it's very gendered, the hot mess 570 00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:43,680 Speaker 1: humble brag. You don't see a lot of men going 571 00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:46,480 Speaker 1: around being like I'm such a hot mess. Instead, she writes, 572 00:34:46,520 --> 00:34:51,200 Speaker 1: you know, men own their success. Yeah, I think that 573 00:34:52,040 --> 00:34:56,640 Speaker 1: this is over analysis to some degree of what hot 574 00:34:56,719 --> 00:35:00,560 Speaker 1: mess really means, because all it really is is self 575 00:35:00,600 --> 00:35:05,399 Speaker 1: deprecating humor, and self deprecating humor is something that I've 576 00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:08,560 Speaker 1: pondered myself in recent years. I got to a point 577 00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:12,000 Speaker 1: later in my twenties where self deprecation had been my 578 00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:16,440 Speaker 1: stick for laughs for a really long time, and I 579 00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:20,399 Speaker 1: kind of not that I'm not self deprecating anymore, but 580 00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:22,919 Speaker 1: I grew out of it being such a crutch because 581 00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:26,440 Speaker 1: it did start to feel kind of inauthentic, partially because 582 00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:30,720 Speaker 1: I was asking myself, well, why can't I just also 583 00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:33,960 Speaker 1: be me when I'm not screwing up to other people? 584 00:35:34,239 --> 00:35:38,600 Speaker 1: Can I be funny in other ways as well? Um? So, 585 00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:41,480 Speaker 1: I think it's definitely worth thinking about in terms of 586 00:35:42,080 --> 00:35:46,920 Speaker 1: what success in likability mean when you are a woman. 587 00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:50,399 Speaker 1: Because Amy Humor is someone whose name comes up with 588 00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:54,799 Speaker 1: these hot mess convos as well, because obviously she's super successful, 589 00:35:55,200 --> 00:36:02,760 Speaker 1: she's white, and her comedic persona is a wild hot mess. 590 00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:05,640 Speaker 1: But Jed Apataw and other people and just like as 591 00:36:05,719 --> 00:36:09,440 Speaker 1: you can observe as a human um have noted she 592 00:36:09,719 --> 00:36:14,000 Speaker 1: is one of the hardest workers in show business, and 593 00:36:14,920 --> 00:36:18,920 Speaker 1: her being cited as I don't know like self labeling 594 00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:22,560 Speaker 1: is a hot mess and that's that's not okay. I 595 00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:28,040 Speaker 1: don't know with those kinds of examples, I am skeptical 596 00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:32,960 Speaker 1: because it's her brand. Yeah, it is her brand, and 597 00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:38,239 Speaker 1: I think it's there. And there are plenty of like 598 00:36:38,360 --> 00:36:43,320 Speaker 1: I guess equivalent male comedians who could potentially be called 599 00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:46,920 Speaker 1: hot messes themselves. I mean, I see what the writer 600 00:36:47,040 --> 00:36:49,680 Speaker 1: was saying in terms of, like, hey, if you're actually 601 00:36:49,719 --> 00:36:53,600 Speaker 1: a really hard worker, like an Amy Schumer, don't equate 602 00:36:53,640 --> 00:36:59,279 Speaker 1: yourself with somehow being out of control just by being you. Yeah. Yeah, 603 00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:02,320 Speaker 1: And this is also making me think of how Amy 604 00:37:02,360 --> 00:37:06,799 Speaker 1: Poehler is so the antithesis of the hot mess I 605 00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:10,680 Speaker 1: mean partially because Leslie Nope obviously has a binder for everything. 606 00:37:11,239 --> 00:37:16,640 Speaker 1: But even in Amy Poehler's public presentation, as slapsticky as 607 00:37:17,080 --> 00:37:22,799 Speaker 1: she can be, sometimes she's still very authentic in how 608 00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:25,560 Speaker 1: she works and how work is meaningful to her and 609 00:37:26,120 --> 00:37:29,080 Speaker 1: things that she thinks about, like her family and relationships 610 00:37:29,280 --> 00:37:32,320 Speaker 1: beyond work. It well as well that might at times 611 00:37:32,640 --> 00:37:35,640 Speaker 1: feel like hot messes, but it's just all part of 612 00:37:36,520 --> 00:37:39,920 Speaker 1: being a busy, successful woman. And so rounding all of 613 00:37:39,960 --> 00:37:45,240 Speaker 1: this back to the lucky girl phenomenon social media. Um, 614 00:37:45,520 --> 00:37:51,279 Speaker 1: why women would seek to mask competence or seek to 615 00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:54,480 Speaker 1: mask effort. I mean, it's all part of sort of 616 00:37:54,520 --> 00:37:58,799 Speaker 1: shaping your identity online, which is something that more and 617 00:37:58,800 --> 00:38:01,560 Speaker 1: more of us are doing. There was the stat Pro 618 00:38:01,719 --> 00:38:06,480 Speaker 1: survey that found that a majority of people on social 619 00:38:06,520 --> 00:38:11,080 Speaker 1: media post online in a way that defines their identities. 620 00:38:11,120 --> 00:38:13,640 Speaker 1: And so it's no wonder we want to look good 621 00:38:13,960 --> 00:38:17,040 Speaker 1: in a way that we can control. Yeah, yeah, I mean, 622 00:38:17,080 --> 00:38:19,239 Speaker 1: and I think in some ways, to like hot mess 623 00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:21,279 Speaker 1: can be controlling your own narrative as well, because it 624 00:38:21,280 --> 00:38:24,759 Speaker 1: takes work to make a mess. Yeah. Well, and and 625 00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:29,279 Speaker 1: also to be comfortable enough to be up on a 626 00:38:29,360 --> 00:38:32,319 Speaker 1: level where you're comfortable enough to publicly admit like I'm 627 00:38:32,360 --> 00:38:37,399 Speaker 1: a mess, Because if you genuinely were falling apart and 628 00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:39,839 Speaker 1: you felt like your life was in a shambles and 629 00:38:39,880 --> 00:38:42,759 Speaker 1: that you couldn't you weren't accomplishing anything, like, would you 630 00:38:42,800 --> 00:38:45,560 Speaker 1: be as comfortable admitting that, like, oh, I'm a hot mess? 631 00:38:45,640 --> 00:38:47,799 Speaker 1: It's like, well, no, you really are, Like please let 632 00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:50,080 Speaker 1: me help you. Well, And is there a distinction between 633 00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:53,359 Speaker 1: just being a mess and being a hot mess? Yeah, yeah, 634 00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:55,719 Speaker 1: culturally I would think so you know, but I do 635 00:38:55,880 --> 00:39:00,520 Speaker 1: like how Mendy Galing like wants nothing to do with 636 00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:03,320 Speaker 1: the whole hot mess thing. She has straight up said, 637 00:39:03,840 --> 00:39:08,280 Speaker 1: I work like a lot a lot, and I appreciate 638 00:39:08,320 --> 00:39:11,239 Speaker 1: that as well, if someone who is very transparent about 639 00:39:11,280 --> 00:39:15,520 Speaker 1: all of the effort and you know, work that goes 640 00:39:15,560 --> 00:39:20,160 Speaker 1: into building her empire like that. Yeah, she talks about 641 00:39:20,200 --> 00:39:23,640 Speaker 1: how she completely over prepares and works so hard, and 642 00:39:23,640 --> 00:39:26,160 Speaker 1: we're used to hearing about women over preparing in terms 643 00:39:26,160 --> 00:39:29,000 Speaker 1: of the imposter syndrome, like I don't believe in myself, 644 00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:31,080 Speaker 1: so I have to overwork and be overprepared and then 645 00:39:31,120 --> 00:39:34,239 Speaker 1: I'm stressed out to death. Mindy kalinks take on it 646 00:39:34,280 --> 00:39:36,319 Speaker 1: is pretty refreshing and that she's saying, no, like I 647 00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:39,160 Speaker 1: work really hard, I over prepare for anything, but that 648 00:39:39,280 --> 00:39:41,880 Speaker 1: is so that I can go kick ass everything that 649 00:39:41,960 --> 00:39:45,960 Speaker 1: I do. I want that that. Yeah, I like that idea. 650 00:39:46,040 --> 00:39:49,279 Speaker 1: That that well, I mean, it's just it's confidence and 651 00:39:49,280 --> 00:39:52,719 Speaker 1: and owning how much work you actually do. And it's 652 00:39:52,760 --> 00:39:57,040 Speaker 1: such a contrast too to the type of overwork and 653 00:39:57,239 --> 00:40:02,000 Speaker 1: over preparedness that we discuss in our Little mis Perfect 654 00:40:02,160 --> 00:40:06,719 Speaker 1: Perfectionism podcast, because that kind of overwork is a sign 655 00:40:06,719 --> 00:40:08,959 Speaker 1: that you're actually not doing things right because you're only 656 00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:12,759 Speaker 1: focused on failure. You're overworking because you are convinced that 657 00:40:12,840 --> 00:40:17,280 Speaker 1: you will fail otherwise, whereas someone like Mindy is overworking 658 00:40:17,760 --> 00:40:21,399 Speaker 1: because she's so focused on success. Yeah, and so it's 659 00:40:21,520 --> 00:40:26,320 Speaker 1: time everybody to ditch this whole luck discourse of everything 660 00:40:26,360 --> 00:40:28,880 Speaker 1: that you accomplish in your life, anything that happens to you, 661 00:40:28,920 --> 00:40:31,719 Speaker 1: anything that you experience, chalking it up to luck. Enough 662 00:40:31,760 --> 00:40:36,560 Speaker 1: with that, it's time to own your work effort and 663 00:40:36,600 --> 00:40:40,040 Speaker 1: your work ethic and and even the hardships that come 664 00:40:40,080 --> 00:40:43,800 Speaker 1: along with it and how much, even how much success 665 00:40:43,880 --> 00:40:46,319 Speaker 1: you've earned. I mean, there's no shame in owning any 666 00:40:46,360 --> 00:40:49,319 Speaker 1: of these things. And at least that could start to 667 00:40:49,360 --> 00:40:52,040 Speaker 1: help engender a little bit of confidence in yourself. When 668 00:40:52,040 --> 00:40:55,400 Speaker 1: you're not telling yourself and others like I'm just lucky, 669 00:40:55,440 --> 00:40:58,040 Speaker 1: you're like, oh no, I didn't really do that much 670 00:40:58,080 --> 00:41:00,680 Speaker 1: to get the promotion to be like the CEO of 671 00:41:00,680 --> 00:41:05,240 Speaker 1: this company. So let's start the trending hashtag unlucky girl. 672 00:41:06,280 --> 00:41:10,560 Speaker 1: That's techically, that's exactly what I meant. Hashtag hard working girl, 673 00:41:10,880 --> 00:41:14,279 Speaker 1: hashtag I'm sweating as I type this, oh, hashtag working girl. 674 00:41:14,360 --> 00:41:16,359 Speaker 1: And then Oh my god. Then I could use so 675 00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:21,400 Speaker 1: many Melanie Griffith gifts done perfect. Well. I have a 676 00:41:21,440 --> 00:41:24,600 Speaker 1: feeling that this topic resonates with a lot of listeners 677 00:41:24,640 --> 00:41:29,400 Speaker 1: because social media, y'all, it's everywhere, and we're curious to 678 00:41:29,440 --> 00:41:32,120 Speaker 1: know your thoughts on it. Is it something that you've 679 00:41:32,520 --> 00:41:36,000 Speaker 1: noticed that you've caught yourself doing something that maybe grates 680 00:41:36,120 --> 00:41:40,680 Speaker 1: on your nerves? Hashtag shut up, lucky girl. Mom Steff 681 00:41:40,680 --> 00:41:42,719 Speaker 1: at how stuff works dot com is where you can 682 00:41:42,719 --> 00:41:45,440 Speaker 1: email us. You can also tweet us at mom Stuff 683 00:41:45,480 --> 00:41:48,920 Speaker 1: podcast or messages on Facebook, and we've got a couple 684 00:41:48,920 --> 00:41:55,520 Speaker 1: of messages to share with you right now. Well, I 685 00:41:55,560 --> 00:41:59,120 Speaker 1: have a letter here from Julie about our Gendered Chef episode. 686 00:41:59,800 --> 00:42:03,839 Speaker 1: She says, I've especially enjoyed listening to your sociological commentary 687 00:42:03,920 --> 00:42:07,720 Speaker 1: on women in stereotypically gendered professions. Me being a woman 688 00:42:07,760 --> 00:42:11,160 Speaker 1: who cares about other women read a feminist, I was 689 00:42:11,239 --> 00:42:14,200 Speaker 1: so excited to finally listen to your Gendered Chef episode 690 00:42:14,200 --> 00:42:17,320 Speaker 1: this week. Male domination of certain professions is an issue 691 00:42:17,360 --> 00:42:20,040 Speaker 1: close to my heart. My younger sister is considered a 692 00:42:20,120 --> 00:42:22,319 Speaker 1: leader in the stem field. My older sister has a 693 00:42:22,360 --> 00:42:25,040 Speaker 1: PhD from m T and a career in academia, and 694 00:42:25,160 --> 00:42:27,680 Speaker 1: I left my position as a corporate attorney to become 695 00:42:27,719 --> 00:42:32,560 Speaker 1: a chef, a pastry chef, and she literally writes que 696 00:42:32,960 --> 00:42:37,200 Speaker 1: sad trombone music. Julia goes on to say, well, I 697 00:42:37,239 --> 00:42:40,160 Speaker 1: agree with every point you made regarding the sadly lacking 698 00:42:40,239 --> 00:42:43,760 Speaker 1: level of female representation and head chef and executive chef positions. 699 00:42:43,840 --> 00:42:46,480 Speaker 1: I do take issue with what I perceived as you 700 00:42:46,600 --> 00:42:50,399 Speaker 1: reinforcing the gendered nature of pastry and banking. It's true 701 00:42:50,400 --> 00:42:54,160 Speaker 1: that more women gravitate to this area of the culinary field. However, 702 00:42:54,239 --> 00:42:56,400 Speaker 1: I made a very risky career move and decided to 703 00:42:56,440 --> 00:42:59,239 Speaker 1: go into pastry making, not because I was intimidated by 704 00:42:59,239 --> 00:43:02,160 Speaker 1: the world of chef to cuisine, but because pastry is 705 00:43:02,200 --> 00:43:05,239 Speaker 1: something that I am passionate about. I understand why you 706 00:43:05,320 --> 00:43:08,759 Speaker 1: explain the fact that pastry and baking has historically been feminized, 707 00:43:08,760 --> 00:43:11,440 Speaker 1: but I think you missed an opportunity to discuss the 708 00:43:11,480 --> 00:43:13,600 Speaker 1: fact that this type of cooking is not less than 709 00:43:13,960 --> 00:43:16,720 Speaker 1: nor less important or rewarding than other types of cooking. 710 00:43:17,239 --> 00:43:20,200 Speaker 1: I would counter that it's the act of feminizing dessert 711 00:43:20,239 --> 00:43:22,960 Speaker 1: making that is robbed of the prestige associated with the 712 00:43:23,000 --> 00:43:32,000 Speaker 1: male gendered chef de cuisine. There is no less skill artistry, intelligence, knowledge, creativity, danger, sweat, invention, precision, calculation, 713 00:43:32,080 --> 00:43:35,440 Speaker 1: or spontaneity involved in making pastries than there is a 714 00:43:35,480 --> 00:43:38,440 Speaker 1: preparing meat. Instead. What I heard on your podcast was 715 00:43:38,520 --> 00:43:41,040 Speaker 1: banter about how disappointing it is that most female chefs 716 00:43:41,040 --> 00:43:43,520 Speaker 1: are still in pastry as if it were a lesser profession. 717 00:43:44,200 --> 00:43:46,600 Speaker 1: This is all to say, well, I think it's important 718 00:43:46,600 --> 00:43:50,320 Speaker 1: work discussing the serious and upsetting gender gaps and many professions. 719 00:43:50,320 --> 00:43:53,520 Speaker 1: I would caution against rhetoric the demeans women in largely 720 00:43:53,600 --> 00:43:56,879 Speaker 1: female professions of something less than those enlargingly mail ones. 721 00:43:57,280 --> 00:43:59,880 Speaker 1: Though it does take courage into enacity to succeed in 722 00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:03,120 Speaker 1: male dominated fields. No argument here. It's a step backward 723 00:44:03,200 --> 00:44:06,560 Speaker 1: to identify historically female dominated fields is somehow less worthy 724 00:44:06,560 --> 00:44:09,640 Speaker 1: than male ones. She says, thanks again for your podcast, 725 00:44:09,719 --> 00:44:12,080 Speaker 1: keep up the good work and the good fight. And Julie, 726 00:44:12,080 --> 00:44:14,080 Speaker 1: I have to say, I totally agree with you, and 727 00:44:14,120 --> 00:44:17,200 Speaker 1: I was hoping that we were sharing those tidbits about 728 00:44:17,400 --> 00:44:20,960 Speaker 1: women's baking history just as a way to enlighten listeners, 729 00:44:20,960 --> 00:44:23,960 Speaker 1: and I totally did not mean to indicate in any 730 00:44:24,000 --> 00:44:26,719 Speaker 1: way that being a pastry chef or being involved in 731 00:44:26,719 --> 00:44:29,040 Speaker 1: pastry in any way, whether it's eating it or making it, 732 00:44:29,600 --> 00:44:33,319 Speaker 1: UH is left banned by virtue of being feminist. Well, 733 00:44:33,360 --> 00:44:36,160 Speaker 1: I gotta let her here from Rosa about our podcast 734 00:44:36,239 --> 00:44:39,960 Speaker 1: on cooking shows, and she writes, while listening to your 735 00:44:40,000 --> 00:44:43,760 Speaker 1: show about celebrity chefts, you mentioned that Julia Child found 736 00:44:43,760 --> 00:44:46,680 Speaker 1: her passion and started her career later in her life. 737 00:44:47,080 --> 00:44:49,320 Speaker 1: I enjoyed how both of you commented on the fact 738 00:44:49,360 --> 00:44:52,120 Speaker 1: that there's nothing wrong with finding what you love to 739 00:44:52,200 --> 00:44:55,560 Speaker 1: do later in life. Our society really is focused on 740 00:44:55,640 --> 00:44:59,080 Speaker 1: becoming highly successful before you reach the right bold age 741 00:44:59,120 --> 00:45:02,920 Speaker 1: of thirty. What's up with that? I'm a seasonal worker 742 00:45:02,960 --> 00:45:05,080 Speaker 1: and haven't found a full time job that I really 743 00:45:05,160 --> 00:45:07,640 Speaker 1: enjoy yet. But I'm going to keep on searching and 744 00:45:07,680 --> 00:45:10,359 Speaker 1: we'll have Julia in the back of my mind as 745 00:45:10,440 --> 00:45:14,719 Speaker 1: my motivation. So thanks Rosa, and thanks to everyone who's 746 00:45:14,719 --> 00:45:17,399 Speaker 1: written in to us. Mom Stuff at how stuff works 747 00:45:17,440 --> 00:45:19,880 Speaker 1: dot com is our email address and for links to 748 00:45:19,880 --> 00:45:21,600 Speaker 1: all of our social media as well as all of 749 00:45:21,600 --> 00:45:25,160 Speaker 1: our blogs, videos, and podcasts, including this one with links 750 00:45:25,160 --> 00:45:27,840 Speaker 1: to car sources so you can read more about hashtag 751 00:45:27,960 --> 00:45:31,840 Speaker 1: lucky Girls head on over to stuff mom Never told 752 00:45:31,880 --> 00:45:38,200 Speaker 1: You dot com for more on this and thousands of 753 00:45:38,239 --> 00:45:48,080 Speaker 1: other topics. Does it, How stuff works dot com