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Speaker 1: Brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve Camray.

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Speaker 1: It's ready. Are you welcome to stuff Mom Never Told you?

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Speaker 1: From How Stuff Works dot Com? Hello, and welcome to

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Speaker 1: the podcast. I'm Kristen and I'm Caroline, and welcome to

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Speaker 1: stuff Mom Never told you. Caroline, Thank you. This is

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Speaker 1: the official first episode featuring the new co host UM.

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Speaker 1: As many of your listeners probably know, Molly has decided

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Speaker 1: to UM pursue more riding with how Stuff Works dot Com.

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Speaker 1: And that opened up a seat at the podcasting table.

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Speaker 1: And I'm so excited to have Caroline, another inquisitive, well spoken,

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Speaker 1: funny lady to speak with me. Wow. Thanks Kristen, You're welcome.

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Speaker 1: It's good to be here. Yeah. You and I go

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Speaker 1: way back, actually all the way back to college. Oh god,

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Speaker 1: and that and I hate how that is a longer

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Speaker 1: and longer time. I know, I know, I remember most

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Speaker 1: of it so clearly. Yes, we worked. Actually a fun

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Speaker 1: fact for our listeners, we worked together at our college newspaper.

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Speaker 1: We did you You did a lot of government stuff.

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Speaker 1: I did, yes, and I had a special emphasis on

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Speaker 1: the low income community. You did, And I remember yelling

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Speaker 1: at you frequently about how you'd write a lot more

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Speaker 1: than you were supposed to. Really, I don't remember that.

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Speaker 1: All I remember is you praising me because when I

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Speaker 1: first came onto the newspaper, Caroline was editor in chief

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Speaker 1: and I was alert, intimidated, But then I liked you

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Speaker 1: thought where you were cool because you would curse in

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Speaker 1: the staff meetings. Yes, I do have a dirty, filthy mouth,

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Speaker 1: but not on the podcast. No, no, I yeah that

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Speaker 1: does not exist here. No, no, it doesn't. Um, But

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Speaker 1: we're very glad to have you on. So why don't

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Speaker 1: we jump into our first topic. Let's do it. Okay,

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Speaker 1: So this is actually one that you suggested, Caroline, So

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Speaker 1: I'm going to just toss it to you. You want

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Speaker 1: to explain what we're going to chat about. Sure, we

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Speaker 1: are going to talk about dating dynamics and can women

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Speaker 1: be the aggressors in a relationship? And we should go

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Speaker 1: ahead and say that we are speaking as it happens

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Speaker 1: a lot of times in our episodes on dating. We're

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Speaker 1: speaking from a very hetero standpoint here in terms of

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Speaker 1: women being able to chase men right, ask them out

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Speaker 1: on the dates exactly, because anecdotally not always easy. I

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Speaker 1: know it doesn't always work out that well, you would

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Speaker 1: think that guys would want us to, uh to pursue them.

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Speaker 1: And you know, I'm not saying that all dudes don't

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Speaker 1: want us to put a little chase, you know, but actually,

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Speaker 1: you know, hasn't worked out that great. You know, it

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Speaker 1: hasn't always been Speaking of what you like you said,

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Speaker 1: guys do, especially guys our age, I feel like um

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Speaker 1: tend to agree that it would be great if girls

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Speaker 1: just did all the work, the work, yeah, and just

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Speaker 1: approached them. There was a column that we found from

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Speaker 1: the Frisky by this guy named John Devoir, and he

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Speaker 1: was all about women asking men out, taking taking the

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Speaker 1: dating reins, and he said that that would be us

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Speaker 1: marching towards gender equality. Yeah, it sounds like we have pitchforks, Yes,

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Speaker 1: and we are going to get a date. We have

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Speaker 1: started works and credit cards, ready to pay the dinner task.

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Speaker 1: You will date me into the likest yes, and you

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Speaker 1: will appreciate my aggressive dating tactics. But in reality, John Devoir,

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Speaker 1: and also in science, as we will get to, because

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Speaker 1: we can't just rely on our dating fails. Sadly, Um,

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Speaker 1: it's not that easy now. According to a recent study

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Speaker 1: in the journal Sex roles. Dating in gender roles and

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Speaker 1: expectations of what those roles should be haven't actually changed

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Speaker 1: that much since the eighties. Since the eighties. Yes, this

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Speaker 1: study went back and examined a hundred and forty three

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Speaker 1: uh separate pieces of research ranging from nine to two

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Speaker 1: thousand and ten with the big question, has dating become

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Speaker 1: more egalitarian? Answer Caroline, Nope, not really, although there are

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Speaker 1: some aspects of dating that have changed. For instance, the

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Speaker 1: hook up culture is bigger now among you know, those

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Speaker 1: crazy college kids and young folks. Um, there's still a

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Speaker 1: perception that men should do the asking and the paying

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Speaker 1: and women should stay inside their little gender rolebox. Right

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Speaker 1: and um they attribute this to the idea of these

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Speaker 1: cultural scripts that we have adopted that might provide some

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Speaker 1: kind of comfortable framework for us to work through as

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Speaker 1: we're getting to know potential mates. Right. So, but I

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Speaker 1: read that as, hey, if you're nervous, just act like

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Speaker 1: a scared little girl, order order a salad, don't eat

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Speaker 1: too much now, and making pay. I mean, I will

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Speaker 1: say though, that there has been a little bit it

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Speaker 1: of progress in terms of um, you know, like dating

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Speaker 1: has loosened up a little bit. Like you said, we

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Speaker 1: do have you know, the hook up option. Dating doesn't

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Speaker 1: necessarily have to be this formal thing that doesn't have

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Speaker 1: to lead to marriage. We're not being courted, you know,

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Speaker 1: he's not coming over to our family's house and sitting

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Speaker 1: in the pala right, and and it's perfectly acceptable. There

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Speaker 1: was one study actually back from a nine three um

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Speaker 1: where both men and women, A majority of men and

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Speaker 1: women said that they wanted to have some kind of

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Speaker 1: gender equality in a dating like there is an ideal,

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Speaker 1: and I think that men and women would both like

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Speaker 1: for the dynamics to be gender equal in terms of

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Speaker 1: women being able to ask out men and men asking

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Speaker 1: out women. But time and again in reality and in

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Speaker 1: the interpersonal relationships, and they went back and examined them,

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Speaker 1: things went more smoothly when the guy did the asking. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean, are we just used to our roles? You know,

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Speaker 1: those traditional dating schemas, the stair creotypes that were used

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Speaker 1: to I don't know. I think they limit interaction. They

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Speaker 1: absolutely limit interaction. And I think this is a good

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Speaker 1: point or a good time I should say to point

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Speaker 1: out that also in that study, they found that couples

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Speaker 1: who broke out of those traditional gender roles and also

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Speaker 1: women who embraced the more feminist ideology. Typically the men

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Speaker 1: and the women reported more satisfaction as a couple. It's true.

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Speaker 1: So even though maybe we're scared to break out of

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Speaker 1: these dating scripts, but maybe there's a lot more dating

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Speaker 1: satisfaction down the line if we can somehow get beyond this. True.

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Speaker 1: That's also a matter of who you meet though. I mean,

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Speaker 1: you know, there are guys who will never want to be,

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Speaker 1: you know, asked up by a woman. There are girls

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Speaker 1: who will never ask out a guy. Yeah, and some yeah,

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Speaker 1: like exactly. It's not just an issue of of men failing.

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Speaker 1: It's also and I shouldn't say it's that's that's harsh,

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Speaker 1: but it's not. Let me rephrase that. It's not an

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Speaker 1: issue you of um men just being uncomfortable with this

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Speaker 1: notion of some kind of aggressive woman, because like you said,

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Speaker 1: I mean women. There's some women, women I know in fact,

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Speaker 1: who are entirely uncomfortable with that. They expect that the

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Speaker 1: guy should should do the work. Well, speaking of someone

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Speaker 1: being uncomfortable, I found myself in a situation where I

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Speaker 1: asked a guy out and that wasn't the hard part

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Speaker 1: because he agreed and we went out and we had fun.

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Speaker 1: The trouble came when I sort of took the reins

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Speaker 1: so well, I did do the asking out, and he

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Speaker 1: seemed fine with that, not weirded out. You know. If

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Speaker 1: I were him, you're a you're a lovely lady. Why

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Speaker 1: thank you? I do model on the side now A. Um, yeah, no,

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Speaker 1: we we hung out and he you know, it seemed

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Speaker 1: like things were going really well. And so I mean,

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Speaker 1: can you blame me for feeling encouraged perhaps asking him

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Speaker 1: out again? You are so address more than one you know,

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Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, it's I know, it's a weird concept

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Speaker 1: of liking someone and wanting to hang out with them,

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Speaker 1: I know. Well, so anyway, yeah, I I started to

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Speaker 1: see if he wanted to hang out more often, and

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Speaker 1: he whole a baby, I'm just disappeared, a total vaporization.

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Speaker 1: Well and see, and this is the point during sex

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Speaker 1: in the City when we can list down all of

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Speaker 1: the reasons why he got sick, he broke his leg,

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Speaker 1: his mom died, all of those reasons. Why. Um you know,

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Speaker 1: oh god, I was about to say, he's just not

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Speaker 1: that endo you and I just became a trope. Um.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, I mean that's I think that anecdote happens

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Speaker 1: a lot. I've had similar situations happened to me. But maybe, okay,

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Speaker 1: let's go to evolutionary biology for a minute instead of

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Speaker 1: let's let's stop making excuses about how getting back together

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Speaker 1: the next girlfriend or something, and let's go to evolutionary

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Speaker 1: biology and something called the female reputational defense theory. But

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Speaker 1: what basically Caroline with a female reputational defense theory would

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Speaker 1: say to you is that you are coming across as

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Speaker 1: a little promiscuous. I don't understand. Let me enlighten. Basically,

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Speaker 1: males suffer. Suffer, like there's some victims. They suffer from

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Speaker 1: something called a paternity insecurity. And basically it's this notion

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Speaker 1: that if we become pregnant, there is no way for

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Speaker 1: a man, aside from paternity testing, to know for sure

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Speaker 1: that the baby coming out of our womb is his.

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Speaker 1: And this is something that is plagued men for so long,

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Speaker 1: and so in order for us to reassure men and

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Speaker 1: sort of advertise our fitness, they should go on Mari Povic.

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Speaker 1: Well before that, before that, um, we need to advertise

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Speaker 1: our sexual fidelity by sort of sitting with our hands

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Speaker 1: in our laps and way and for the men to

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Speaker 1: come a calling, because if we're going out, you know,

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Speaker 1: if if you're asking him out, who else could you

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Speaker 1: be asking out? Millions? No, I mean probably all your

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Speaker 1: Facebook friends, mailman, you're probably tweeting yourself hashtagy manager. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So there's a homeless guy who sleeps in the market station.

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Speaker 1: So there's I know, so many people me In fact,

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Speaker 1: we could even be ask me. So it's this notion

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Speaker 1: that that set off maybe some signal in this hetero

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Speaker 1: dude's brain rooted d down in this evolutionary past that

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Speaker 1: you might not be the fittest mate. Alright, oh god,

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Speaker 1: you went there, Okay, Um, well so but what what

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Speaker 1: what does that mean? Because obviously our culture is fine

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Speaker 1: with men going out and asking a bunch of people out. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so where is the equality here? Why can't we do it?

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Speaker 1: I really wish I could think it's a man's well

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Speaker 1: right now, I mean, but I don't want to say

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Speaker 1: that because it's it's not. Um, I mean, that's just

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Speaker 1: one x nation. And and sometimes evolutionary biology and evolutionary

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Speaker 1: psychology can definitely go at odds with UH feminism and

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Speaker 1: also the notion of I mean social evolution or in

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Speaker 1: progress towards gender equality. But I mean that's one theory.

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Speaker 1: And then let's go let's talk about Michael Mills. Alright,

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Speaker 1: I love him. I love him. Do you want to

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Speaker 1: ask him out? Saying he's a professor of psychology at

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Speaker 1: Loyal who did a little experiment recently, or just a survey.

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Speaker 1: Actually it wasn't really much of an experiment. Yeah, he

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Speaker 1: asked why women aren't asking men out? And he and

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Speaker 1: some of his students conducted a survey of of nearly

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Speaker 1: a hundred straight adults to find out. You know, have

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Speaker 1: you asked anybody out? Have you been asked out? What

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Speaker 1: do you prefer? Yeah. According to the survey, a mere

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Speaker 1: nine percent of women said they like to ask dudes out,

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Speaker 1: while sixteen percent of guys said they like it better

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Speaker 1: when the lady does the work. Well, hey, there's a gap.

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Speaker 1: Maybe maybe that's a signal that we should ask more out. Well,

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Speaker 1: at least the mind find the minority that sixteen percent

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Speaker 1: in the room. Right, when you walk into a bar

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Speaker 1: full of a hundred guys, yeah, fine, you know them

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Speaker 1: are bound to be open to it. They probably look nervous, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: they're probably the ones kind of sweating looking around shifty

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Speaker 1: ad or they those could be on drugs. I don't know.

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Speaker 1: So the point is, yes, they're still in a minority, right,

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Speaker 1: most guys still to be asking. You know, actually, Michael Mills,

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Speaker 1: this Michael Mills character says it's time for women to

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Speaker 1: woman up and get some ovaries, and it's time to

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Speaker 1: put our fragile egos on the line. Huh okay, Well

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Speaker 1: maybe it's maybe it's time for Michael Mills. I gotta

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Speaker 1: response for you. Maybe it's time for you guys to

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Speaker 1: get over your genetic paternity and security and go out

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Speaker 1: with us more than once word. Yeah, send that to

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Speaker 1: send that to Michael Mills. Um, but here's a question though,

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Speaker 1: in my mind, with all of us we're talking ab

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Speaker 1: all is hetero back and forth men, women, I want

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Speaker 1: to know if perhaps this who's gonna ask who out?

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Speaker 1: What's the rule you got to play? Is that a

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Speaker 1: lot easier? Is that more of a moot point in

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Speaker 1: homosexual dating? Well? Yeah, going back to the sexual study, UM,

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Speaker 1: the authors mentioned that that problem doesn't really exist in

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Speaker 1: the same way in in homosexual relationships. A lot of

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Speaker 1: the time, Um, people are just more comfortable asking each

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Speaker 1: other out, and there's no there's no need to, you know,

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Speaker 1: back and forth, yeah, back and forth. There's at least

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Speaker 1: maybe the they don't have that that dating script that

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Speaker 1: we've been reading and rereading over and acting out ever

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Speaker 1: since dating really took off in the nineteen twenties. So

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Speaker 1: I mean, that'd be nice. Yeah, if there was a pressure,

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Speaker 1: if you could just say, hey, I like you, let's

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Speaker 1: go out. I mean, okay, we'll see. That's what I do.

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Speaker 1: It seems natural. Yeah, I mean, if you like someone,

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Speaker 1: go ahead and ask him out. But you know, according

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Speaker 1: to people's deep seated biological whatever. But also we can't

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Speaker 1: just we can't just blame other people though. According to

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Speaker 1: a two thousand and five study entitled I really like this,

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Speaker 1: when courtship persistence becomes intrusive pursuit, you might be suffering

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Speaker 1: from a little bit of over confidence. Yeah, I know,

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Speaker 1: that's what I figured after well, of course after I

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Speaker 1: read the study, that's what I figured happened after that

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Speaker 1: situation earlier. Um, and this goes for men and women,

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Speaker 1: And that goes for both both the women and the

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Speaker 1: men who were pursuing that they might just be overestimating

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Speaker 1: their skills, and that does indeed have a Z on

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Speaker 1: the end um. The two thousand five studies says that

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Speaker 1: pursuers in general assume that their targets feel flattered by

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Speaker 1: their actions, although when the tables are turned and they're

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Speaker 1: the ones being chased, they're just as likely to report

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Speaker 1: feelings of annoyance. Yeah, and this was replicated in another

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Speaker 1: recent study um that some evolutionary psychologists were kind of

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Speaker 1: digging into, uh, the women pursuing dynamic whether or not

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Speaker 1: that work, And the same kind of effect happened when

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Speaker 1: in a speed dating scenario when women were the ones

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Speaker 1: when guys are sitting at the table and women were

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Speaker 1: the ones circulating around, they had actually more confidence in

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Speaker 1: their flirtation skills, again with a z UM. So it's

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Speaker 1: kind of interesting to see how that is at least

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Speaker 1: something that we share over confidence. Yeah, one thing we

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Speaker 1: don't share back to the things of you know, Mars

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Speaker 1: and venus women men um. Women are more likely to

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Speaker 1: be concerned about their male pursuers feelings and to think

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Speaker 1: of them as angry about rejection. So in an attempt

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Speaker 1: to anger, lessen, or hurt, women can tend to pull

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Speaker 1: that wishy washy, let's just be friends. Yeah, pulling all that,

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Speaker 1: which actually might have the reverse effect. You know. They

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Speaker 1: we think, oh, we're just we're letting him down easy,

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Speaker 1: but the guy is actually looking for a more direct rejection,

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Speaker 1: and so we're actually leading them on. They think we're

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Speaker 1: playing hard to get, which would just make matters worse.

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Speaker 1: I've ended up, I've ended up in a in certain

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Speaker 1: situations like that. And whereas like the situation you were

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Speaker 1: talking about earlier, where the guy just kind of vaporized,

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Speaker 1: you know, that might be a little more typical because

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Speaker 1: we might just be dealing with some different communication styles.

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Speaker 1: So while it might seem like we you and I

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Speaker 1: have just repeated a lot of and rehashed a lot

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Speaker 1: of gender stereotypes, I think it all goes back to

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Speaker 1: these dating scripts and schemas and gender scripts that are

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Speaker 1: discussed in this sexual study that we have held onto

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Speaker 1: and followed for thirty five years. Because maybe it is

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Speaker 1: a little more comfortable. But do you think, Caroline, do

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Speaker 1: you think we can break the script? I have and

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Speaker 1: I'll let you know when it works out. Okay, Well,

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Speaker 1: I'd like to know for a listeners. So I mean,

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Speaker 1: there have got to be men and women out there? Guys,

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Speaker 1: what do you think about women approaching you? Women? What

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Speaker 1: do you think about approaching guys and gay couples out there? Please?

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Speaker 1: Is it easier? Do you have this problem? How do

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Speaker 1: you know? And I'd like to know for the guys

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Speaker 1: out there who like to be asked out, why do

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Speaker 1: you think you like to be asked out so much? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: I mean, what is it about you? We have so

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Speaker 1: many questions, so many questions really, but it is kind

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Speaker 1: of fascinating because time and again, I do think that

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Speaker 1: guys will often report that it would be great for

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Speaker 1: women to to come up and and do the asking,

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Speaker 1: because every it's always a little flattering to be asked out.

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Speaker 1: Whether you're interested or not, it's a nice little boost.

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Speaker 1: But whether or not you're going to follow through, it's

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Speaker 1: another story. So send us an email, send us something

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Speaker 1: on write something on Facebook, get in contact with us.

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Speaker 1: Our email addresses mom stuff at how stuff works dot com.

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Speaker 1: And let's read a couple of listener emails that we've

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Speaker 1: gotten in here. We have an email from Michael. He says,

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Speaker 1: my subculture lifestyle puts me in an odd bubble. Most

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Speaker 1: of the men I know aren't typical guys. They wear makeup, eyeliner,

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Speaker 1: mostly somewhere, foundation, nail polish. They're so secure in their

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Speaker 1: sexuality that they don't flinch at the idea of wearing

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Speaker 1: anything that would be categorized as women's wear. My boyfriend

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Speaker 1: can't do is on eyeliner, so he asked me to

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Speaker 1: do it for him. Whenever we get tarted up to

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Speaker 1: go out. He owns more makeup than I do. When

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Speaker 1: I do come across the rare well rare in my

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Speaker 1: little world guy who thinks it's weird, I am reminded

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Speaker 1: how very secure my little bubble is still. I love

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Speaker 1: a man and eyeliner who isn't afraid of the color pink. Indeed,

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Speaker 1: and that was in response to our episode on men

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Speaker 1: wearing nakeup. And I have one now to take a

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Speaker 1: U turn. I've cut one from our episode on east infections. Okay,

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Speaker 1: uh no, this is this is some useful information and

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Speaker 1: this comes from Kate, and she writes this is from

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Speaker 1: some personal experience. She says the drugs that knock out

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Speaker 1: yeast infections can often cause bacterial bacterial vaginosis and vice versa.

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Speaker 1: This is because one wipes out bacteria and the other

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Speaker 1: yeast and creates an imbalance between the two. It's really

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Speaker 1: important in treating either of these, particularly if they appear

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Speaker 1: to have come back. You may have in fact knocked

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Speaker 1: out one and will now be treating it again when

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Speaker 1: in fact you have the other, because they're similar, and

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Speaker 1: this is often overlooked. Finding a delicate balance where you

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Speaker 1: can take a bit of one medication and then the

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Speaker 1: other and find the yin and the yang. It's the

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Speaker 1: best way to really kick the infection in this case,

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Speaker 1: or so says my doctor, and I haven't had trouble sense.

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Speaker 1: Oh the wonderful world of these infections, and my wonderful

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Speaker 1: I mean terribly confusing. So if you have any emails

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Speaker 1: to send our way about yeast, infections, makeup or dating

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00:19:57,800 --> 00:20:00,879
Speaker 1: or anything else, send it our way. His mom stuff

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00:20:01,240 --> 00:20:03,080
Speaker 1: at how stuff works dot com. And why don't you

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Speaker 1: hop on Facebook and say hello to Caroline Hello, make

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Speaker 1: her feel welcome in her warm you home of stuffman

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00:20:11,680 --> 00:20:14,680
Speaker 1: never told you, Or you can tweet her at mom

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Speaker 1: Stuff Podcasts. And then finally we're gonna be blogging It's

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Speaker 1: stuff Mom Never told you at how stuff works dot com.

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Speaker 1: Be sure to check out our new video podcast Stuff

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Speaker 1: from the Future. Join how Stuff Work staff as we

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Speaker 1: explore the most promising and perplexing possibilities of tomorrow. The

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Speaker 1: How Stuff Works iPhone app has arrived. Download it today

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Speaker 1: on iTunes. Brought to you by the reinvented two thousand

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Speaker 1: twelve Camray. It's ready, are you