WEBVTT - What's Happening in Immigration Court 0:00:01.720 --> 0:00:07.600 All media. Hi everyone, and welcome to the show. It's 0:00:07.680 --> 0:00:11.039 me James today and I'm joined once again by Kirsten Zitlau. 0:00:11.119 --> 0:00:13.400 We've heard from her before. She's an immigration lawyer who 0:00:13.400 --> 0:00:15.640 takes asylum cases, and we're going to talk about the 0:00:15.680 --> 0:00:18.720 asylum system or I guess what's left of it today. 0:00:19.120 --> 0:00:23.360 Kirsten is representing somebody I met, the Darien gap Primrose, 0:00:23.360 --> 0:00:24.840 who you've heard from before. So we're going to talk 0:00:24.880 --> 0:00:26.279 about that case and then we're going to talk a 0:00:26.320 --> 0:00:30.159 little bit about ice detentions inside immigration court. Welcome to 0:00:30.200 --> 0:00:30.960 the show, Kristin. 0:00:31.080 --> 0:00:32.800 Thank you, James, it's good to be here. 0:00:33.159 --> 0:00:36.120 Yeah, thanks for thanks for coming. I know you're extremely busy. 0:00:36.680 --> 0:00:40.199 Can you explain to us, like the asylum system is 0:00:40.280 --> 0:00:44.120 essentially coming to an end, right, we are not getting 0:00:44.159 --> 0:00:47.280 new asylum cases, Like what is the situation for people 0:00:47.600 --> 0:00:50.160 in the asylum system right now? 0:00:50.880 --> 0:00:54.960 Yes, that's a correct statement, James. So there are no 0:00:55.120 --> 0:00:59.440 new asylum cases. In other words, people who cross at 0:00:59.440 --> 0:01:04.440 the Southern Order are now detained only to be removed 0:01:04.680 --> 0:01:08.240 immediately basically or as soon as possible, under what's called 0:01:08.360 --> 0:01:12.960 two twelve F authority. It's under the Immigration and Nationality Act. 0:01:13.640 --> 0:01:18.200 Trump has used this authority, which basically broadly says that 0:01:18.560 --> 0:01:23.119 if the President finds a certain class of immigrants or 0:01:23.600 --> 0:01:26.000 the entry of immigrants would be detrimental to the interests 0:01:26.000 --> 0:01:29.360 of the United States, they made by proclamation, you know, 0:01:29.480 --> 0:01:33.399 suspend all entry have said immigrants. So that was the 0:01:33.440 --> 0:01:37.480 purpose and the effect of the executive order discussing the 0:01:37.520 --> 0:01:40.200 invasion at the border, and all the other executive orders 0:01:40.200 --> 0:01:46.120 discussing invasions and criminal aspects such as cartels and trender ragua, 0:01:46.160 --> 0:01:49.560 which we all know now is you know, is the 0:01:49.680 --> 0:01:54.800 justification for alleged justification for just shutting it down at 0:01:54.800 --> 0:01:58.960 the border. So whereas people used to get credible fear 0:01:59.040 --> 0:02:02.680 interviews or were parolled into the United States to be 0:02:02.720 --> 0:02:05.720 allowed to fight an asylum case, none of that is 0:02:05.760 --> 0:02:09.520 happening anymore. And people are, if anything, only screened for 0:02:09.600 --> 0:02:13.959 what's called Convention against Torture screenings to just determine like, hey, 0:02:13.960 --> 0:02:16.720 are they going to be portrayed by their government or 0:02:16.720 --> 0:02:19.040 with the acquiescence of their government if they returned to 0:02:19.080 --> 0:02:22.160 their home country. But even then they are not allowed 0:02:22.160 --> 0:02:24.360 to remain in the United States or fight any relief 0:02:24.360 --> 0:02:26.120 in the United States. That just means that they will 0:02:26.160 --> 0:02:29.200 be deported to a third country. So that was a 0:02:29.240 --> 0:02:32.160 situation like when we saw the Iranians sitting in the 0:02:32.200 --> 0:02:35.000 hotel room in Panama, That's what happened there most likely. 0:02:35.800 --> 0:02:38.600 So that's the situation at the southern border. Whoever is 0:02:38.639 --> 0:02:40.600 still in the United States, you know, who came in 0:02:40.639 --> 0:02:42.840 before in Operation Day, is still allowed to fight their 0:02:42.880 --> 0:02:46.720 case as of now, but there are no new asylum 0:02:46.760 --> 0:02:48.959 cases essentially, right. 0:02:49.200 --> 0:02:53.000 So for those people fighting their case, the asylum system 0:02:53.040 --> 0:02:56.560 was already an uphill battle, right, and it became hot 0:02:57.000 --> 0:03:02.360 after Biden's asylum ban. It's already had after title forty two. 0:03:02.880 --> 0:03:04.600 Like people who listen to the show will have known 0:03:04.600 --> 0:03:07.600 about the people who crushed in twenty twenty three, and 0:03:07.760 --> 0:03:09.480 of course they would have followed those people who I'm 0:03:09.520 --> 0:03:12.320 in the drying gap, some of whom very few of 0:03:12.360 --> 0:03:18.000 whom crushed before January. I literally one I believe that 0:03:18.000 --> 0:03:20.840 I'm aware of. Can you explain what the asylum system 0:03:20.960 --> 0:03:22.280 is like for those people now? 0:03:22.919 --> 0:03:23.160 Yeah? 0:03:23.160 --> 0:03:26.280 So I think the biggest two factors affecting asylum cases 0:03:26.320 --> 0:03:29.000 these days is what you just referred to, which is 0:03:29.040 --> 0:03:33.680 the asylum ban called the circumvention against lawful pathways that 0:03:34.600 --> 0:03:37.680 barred people essentially from asylum if they did not use 0:03:37.720 --> 0:03:41.680 CBP one the application to apply for an appointment, which 0:03:41.760 --> 0:03:44.360 of course only allowed I think fifteen hundred a day 0:03:44.440 --> 0:03:48.400 or something absurd, forcing most people to cross unlawfully. So 0:03:48.520 --> 0:03:51.440 that's still very much in place. The litigation has been 0:03:51.560 --> 0:03:55.000 stalled forever. There's no hope of you know, I don't 0:03:55.040 --> 0:03:57.080 think there's no movement on that. I haven't seen or 0:03:57.120 --> 0:04:00.360 heard anything. Yeah, most likely intentionally because when Trump did 0:04:00.400 --> 0:04:02.880 a similar ban, it was overturned immediately. So this is 0:04:02.920 --> 0:04:05.080 like a new strategy that we're seeing where things are 0:04:05.120 --> 0:04:08.200 just lagging in court right. You know, for example, just 0:04:08.240 --> 0:04:11.600 a quick side detour the birthright citizenship issue got up 0:04:11.640 --> 0:04:14.480 to the Supreme Court real quick, whereas the asylum issue, 0:04:14.960 --> 0:04:17.719 meaning the border shut down to asylum, is still languishing 0:04:17.760 --> 0:04:20.320 somewhere before. I think even just a federal district judge 0:04:20.440 --> 0:04:23.360 is not even in any appeal court yet. So this 0:04:23.400 --> 0:04:27.080 is all I think, it's strategic, so that circumventioning as 0:04:27.120 --> 0:04:30.880 lawful pathways ban is still very much an impediment. You know, 0:04:30.920 --> 0:04:33.679 we all of course argue that every migrant in Mexico 0:04:33.800 --> 0:04:36.880 was in danger and thus qualifies for the exception to 0:04:37.040 --> 0:04:39.760 the CLP that their life was in danger and they 0:04:39.760 --> 0:04:42.039 couldn't afford to wait the many many months for the 0:04:42.080 --> 0:04:46.799 CBP one appointment. But judges it's been met with mixed reviews. 0:04:47.120 --> 0:04:50.840 They generally like to see like somebody basically near death 0:04:51.000 --> 0:04:55.080 for the exception to apply. And of course the immigration 0:04:55.200 --> 0:04:58.960 bar argues that all migrants are basically under threat of death. 0:04:59.800 --> 0:05:03.160 Any cartel or even immigration official contact in Mexico could 0:05:03.200 --> 0:05:05.760 have been a death sentence very easily, as we all know. 0:05:06.120 --> 0:05:07.760 Yeah, so that's a big thing affecting. 0:05:07.800 --> 0:05:10.680 The latest thing that's also being implemented as a result 0:05:10.800 --> 0:05:17.599 of this cartel terrorist organization designation is you know where 0:05:17.640 --> 0:05:19.960 it's not just the cartels is MS thirteen and ten 0:05:20.040 --> 0:05:24.240 dew Ragua is that there's a what's called a trig 0:05:24.279 --> 0:05:27.640 bar that's applied then also to asylum and the bar 0:05:27.920 --> 0:05:31.320 is basically about material support of any of these groups, 0:05:31.880 --> 0:05:36.200 but it's construed to an absurd degree where even if 0:05:36.240 --> 0:05:39.800 you made a bowl of food for Samaras under duress, 0:05:40.279 --> 0:05:42.800 or you made payment because your kid was about to 0:05:42.839 --> 0:05:46.240 be killed, right, that's considered material support in your barred 0:05:46.240 --> 0:05:46.960 from asylum. 0:05:47.400 --> 0:05:48.479 I wondered if they would do that. 0:05:48.600 --> 0:05:50.440 Yeah, so we're seeing that too. 0:05:51.279 --> 0:05:53.640 Other than that, I mean, I have been fortunate to 0:05:53.680 --> 0:05:56.520 win asylum for folks under Trump two point zero. I mean, 0:05:56.560 --> 0:05:59.400 I don't know how long that'll still last, but judges 0:05:59.440 --> 0:06:03.000 are still you know, granting cases. So I'm glad to 0:06:03.040 --> 0:06:03.400 see that. 0:06:03.720 --> 0:06:04.080 Yeah. 0:06:04.240 --> 0:06:06.680 So that's generally what it's looked like these past four 0:06:06.720 --> 0:06:08.360 months for Assil's Okay. 0:06:08.760 --> 0:06:10.760 Yeah, I think it's really important that we do. There 0:06:10.800 --> 0:06:13.800 are still possible, like victories to be had within the 0:06:13.800 --> 0:06:16.679 court system, and asylum is one of the places where, 0:06:16.720 --> 0:06:19.120 like there's no more getting me on the train. I 0:06:19.120 --> 0:06:21.159 guess like the people who are on the train now 0:06:21.440 --> 0:06:24.240 we can and people should if they have the financial means, 0:06:24.240 --> 0:06:25.960 and we'll talk about how they can do that later. 0:06:26.160 --> 0:06:29.440 People should support those people because there's no one else 0:06:29.520 --> 0:06:32.000 who can go through that system, and like, there are 0:06:32.000 --> 0:06:35.279 people who have gone through horrific things to get here, 0:06:35.279 --> 0:06:37.320 and horrific things in the places that they came from. 0:06:37.360 --> 0:06:39.960 And even if it's not everyone we would like to 0:06:40.000 --> 0:06:41.560 keep safe, we should do everything we can to keep 0:06:41.560 --> 0:06:43.080 those people safe. 0:06:42.680 --> 0:06:44.880 One hundred percent, you know, just to say I mean 0:06:44.960 --> 0:06:48.520 and funding somebody's legal fees. I mean, an attorney makes 0:06:48.600 --> 0:06:52.560 all the difference in navigating these types of issues that 0:06:52.600 --> 0:06:55.200 I just talked about and other issues and presenting your case. 0:06:55.240 --> 0:06:58.120 I mean, asylum cases are still incredibly difficult to win, 0:06:58.200 --> 0:07:00.680 and so representation of counsel is of than key. 0:07:01.560 --> 0:07:03.680 Yeah, I think that the rates of success people who 0:07:03.680 --> 0:07:06.560 don't have counsel are dramatically lower. I haven't looked on 0:07:06.600 --> 0:07:09.000 Track recently, but you can normally find that on the 0:07:09.640 --> 0:07:11.720 I think Track is no longer the University of Syracuse, 0:07:11.760 --> 0:07:13.200 but it did. It did some place where you can 0:07:13.200 --> 0:07:18.800 find information statistics. Let's talk about one of those cases, 0:07:18.840 --> 0:07:22.600 if that's okay, And obviously you know we won't intervening 0:07:22.600 --> 0:07:24.680 anyone's perhaps any more than we have to. But like 0:07:25.240 --> 0:07:28.360 I want to talk about Primrose. Primrose is Zimbabwean woman 0:07:28.480 --> 0:07:31.400 who I met in Bajaji Gito when I was in 0:07:31.520 --> 0:07:34.440 the Darien Gap reporting on my series. People heard from 0:07:34.440 --> 0:07:35.840 her in the series. 0:07:36.400 --> 0:07:38.360 Even me. I was crying myself. I was like, I 0:07:38.800 --> 0:07:41.840 want to just put myself in the water. Then again, 0:07:42.000 --> 0:07:46.520 just or the gain was tough, really really tough, the mountain, 0:07:46.680 --> 0:07:51.400 the stones, the river. It's not easy at all. It's 0:07:51.440 --> 0:07:55.240 not a very I don't even recommended someone to say, yeah, 0:07:55.240 --> 0:07:58.280 you lose that and give no. And even myself, I 0:07:58.360 --> 0:08:01.880 did know about it. Yeah, I was regretting myself. I 0:08:01.920 --> 0:08:05.760 was crying. I was like, good, I don't know my 0:08:05.880 --> 0:08:08.200 family and my family they don't know where I am 0:08:08.360 --> 0:08:08.960 right now. 0:08:09.040 --> 0:08:15.200 But I make it. Yeah, make it You're safe. Yeah, 0:08:15.240 --> 0:08:19.480 she is now in the asylum process, right, can you 0:08:19.520 --> 0:08:22.320 explain a little bit about like where she is in 0:08:22.360 --> 0:08:25.000 the process. And I will eventually do a scripted series 0:08:25.040 --> 0:08:26.960 on this, but like I guess, can we get an 0:08:27.040 --> 0:08:30.280 update on her situation and how it's progressing. 0:08:30.400 --> 0:08:31.200 Absolutely so. 0:08:31.560 --> 0:08:33.920 I came into the case about I want to say, 0:08:33.920 --> 0:08:37.800 a month or two ago, she had somebody supporting her, 0:08:37.880 --> 0:08:42.880 a friend living in Texas, and that situation, a living situation, 0:08:42.960 --> 0:08:46.480 has changed, I believe, which is also not the worst 0:08:46.559 --> 0:08:49.240 thing she's but she will be moving with a friend 0:08:49.240 --> 0:08:52.200 to southern California or moving in with a friend rather, 0:08:52.360 --> 0:08:56.880 But just this situation is very different in Texas and 0:08:56.960 --> 0:09:01.200 Louisiana and Mississippi and those types of states markedly so. 0:09:01.360 --> 0:09:04.040 And her case is a good example of that. And 0:09:04.120 --> 0:09:07.760 there's a reason that people like Mamu Khalil and many 0:09:07.840 --> 0:09:10.839 others are sent to detention centers in that area because 0:09:10.840 --> 0:09:12.960 it's in the Fifth Circuit, first of all, which is 0:09:13.840 --> 0:09:17.280 widely renowned to be not a favorable circuit court of 0:09:17.320 --> 0:09:18.319 appeals to immigrants. 0:09:18.440 --> 0:09:18.840 Yeah. 0:09:18.880 --> 0:09:22.320 But more so than that, even the judges themselves are 0:09:22.400 --> 0:09:25.800 very different from what we would encounter in California, for example. 0:09:26.400 --> 0:09:29.120 So my first encounter with the judge was, you know, 0:09:29.120 --> 0:09:31.880 and this is all virtual. I submitted a motion to 0:09:32.000 --> 0:09:32.840 appear for her. 0:09:33.240 --> 0:09:35.640 She had a master calendar hearing in June. 0:09:36.240 --> 0:09:40.080 I submitted amotion to appear for that telephonically, explaining I 0:09:40.120 --> 0:09:42.720 was representing her at lower no cost, you know, whatever 0:09:42.760 --> 0:09:45.280 funds could be raised, and could I please appear for 0:09:45.360 --> 0:09:49.960 as it's a status type conference telephonically. And that motion 0:09:50.559 --> 0:09:53.480 was met with a really strange response. I don't to 0:09:53.520 --> 0:09:55.400 this day, I don't really know exactly. It was sort 0:09:55.400 --> 0:09:58.640 of approved, but then moot because eventually a final court 0:09:58.679 --> 0:10:01.280 hearing was set. So that's where we're right now. She 0:10:01.320 --> 0:10:04.240 has a final court next year and about a year 0:10:04.360 --> 0:10:07.400 and a couple months. But in ruling on my WebEx motion, 0:10:07.840 --> 0:10:10.520 I was emailed the order of the judge along with 0:10:10.600 --> 0:10:11.640 a notice. 0:10:11.520 --> 0:10:13.400 That premiers should self deport. 0:10:14.360 --> 0:10:18.080 So judges are sending out these notices with routine other 0:10:18.320 --> 0:10:23.560 orders in cases where the immigrant has council is fighting 0:10:23.640 --> 0:10:29.840 their case. It's obvious they're fighting their case Jesus. And yeah, 0:10:29.880 --> 0:10:31.640 so it's one of the things where you just feel 0:10:31.760 --> 0:10:34.679 very strongly this administration's influence. 0:10:35.040 --> 0:10:37.040 Are they obliged to do that or is that a 0:10:37.120 --> 0:10:38.520 choice that the judge is making. 0:10:38.760 --> 0:10:41.240 Not at all, And in fact it's completely inappropriate. So 0:10:41.360 --> 0:10:44.040 all of us are the immigration bar is taking a 0:10:44.040 --> 0:10:47.440 different approach to it. You know, some are filing motions 0:10:47.440 --> 0:10:50.360 to recuse, telling the judges, hey, you need to recuse yourself. 0:10:50.360 --> 0:10:52.760 You're a non neutral judge. To send this out in 0:10:52.760 --> 0:10:54.560 the middle of the case is absurd. It's a due 0:10:54.559 --> 0:10:58.080 process violation. They're entitled to a neutral judge. Yeah, I 0:10:58.120 --> 0:11:00.640 think my approach would be more one of playing dumb, 0:11:00.640 --> 0:11:04.320 because often this has happened. The system, if you will, 0:11:04.360 --> 0:11:07.400 of ecass the electronics system that we use for court 0:11:07.400 --> 0:11:10.360 immigration filing systems that Elon Musk briefly had access to 0:11:10.480 --> 0:11:13.520 or whatever was going on there. But anyways, I digress. 0:11:13.760 --> 0:11:17.200 You know, will send out automatic notices with the emails 0:11:17.240 --> 0:11:19.760 with the judges orders. So my approach, I think will 0:11:19.800 --> 0:11:21.520 be to give the judges the benefit of the doubt 0:11:21.559 --> 0:11:23.960 and ask them if this was an electronic notice and 0:11:24.000 --> 0:11:26.120 if they say no, then I've gotten it on the record, 0:11:26.160 --> 0:11:28.040 and if they deny the case, I have that in 0:11:28.080 --> 0:11:31.160 there for the appeal. But yeah, it's happening all over 0:11:31.200 --> 0:11:34.320 the country with all sorts of different judges, and it's 0:11:34.360 --> 0:11:36.320 definitely something that we're grappling with right now. 0:11:36.360 --> 0:11:37.640 And it's just it's. 0:11:37.600 --> 0:11:41.040 Very ballsy for a judge to say, hey, leave the 0:11:41.080 --> 0:11:44.040 country and oh, by the way, I'm a neutral arbiter. 0:11:44.440 --> 0:11:46.480 Yeah, I mean, what's the point of having the judge, 0:11:46.480 --> 0:11:49.200 you having the whole process right if then they're going 0:11:49.280 --> 0:11:51.160 to declare this clear bias. 0:11:51.320 --> 0:11:53.880 Yeah, it's a third I mean, it's you know, I mean, 0:11:53.920 --> 0:11:56.160 it's such a violation of due process rights. And I 0:11:56.200 --> 0:11:58.680 think I know everybody in this country now knows the 0:11:58.720 --> 0:12:01.520 importance of due process, whereas before only attorneys through that 0:12:01.600 --> 0:12:03.800 term around. But no, I mean, this stuff really matters, 0:12:03.880 --> 0:12:04.080 you know. 0:12:04.559 --> 0:12:05.000 Yeah. 0:12:05.080 --> 0:12:08.520 And then also another thing that happened in Primrose's case 0:12:08.600 --> 0:12:11.400 is that when you have a work permit clock right, 0:12:11.760 --> 0:12:14.400 which is another absurd thing for assiles that once they 0:12:14.400 --> 0:12:16.680 file their asylum application, they have to wait one hundred 0:12:16.720 --> 0:12:17.800 and fifty days before they can. 0:12:17.720 --> 0:12:19.840 Apply for a work permit. 0:12:20.000 --> 0:12:22.800 And of course they're expected to be independently wealthy during 0:12:22.800 --> 0:12:25.280 those five months or you know, or star or I 0:12:25.320 --> 0:12:26.440 don't know what they're expected to do. 0:12:26.800 --> 0:12:29.680 Yeah, rely on the generosity of others, like exactly. 0:12:30.000 --> 0:12:33.160 So if you do something like try to change venue 0:12:33.400 --> 0:12:35.800 or a motion to continue, if you do something in 0:12:35.840 --> 0:12:38.480 your case that the judge perceives as not moving the 0:12:38.520 --> 0:12:41.240 case along and rather like kind of trying to stall 0:12:41.280 --> 0:12:43.959 it or possibly pausing it or slow it down, the 0:12:44.040 --> 0:12:47.400 judge will stop the work permit clock the days and 0:12:47.559 --> 0:12:50.960 it's a whole thing. So Primroses was stopped because the 0:12:51.040 --> 0:12:54.680 judge wanted her to get an attorney. So usually when 0:12:54.800 --> 0:12:57.840 the case is set for a final hearing, that code 0:12:57.840 --> 0:13:01.120 adjournment code they call it, I know for we have. 0:13:01.120 --> 0:13:02.840 The access to the codes and what stops the clock 0:13:02.880 --> 0:13:03.200 and what. 0:13:03.120 --> 0:13:06.680 Doesn't, And it always restarts the clock because you moved 0:13:06.720 --> 0:13:08.640 your case along because you're setting it for trial. 0:13:08.720 --> 0:13:10.880 It's it's you know, obviously moving your case along. 0:13:11.000 --> 0:13:14.839 Hers was not restarted for whatever reason, yea, And my 0:13:15.360 --> 0:13:18.040 only remedy would be to write some court administrator who 0:13:18.120 --> 0:13:19.720 may or may not ever respond. 0:13:20.320 --> 0:13:22.040 I can't even go to the judge about this. You know, 0:13:22.120 --> 0:13:23.040 it's it's absurd. 0:13:23.160 --> 0:13:27.560 So that's just the situation that one assilie is one 0:13:27.559 --> 0:13:30.720 asylum seeker is dealing with in Texas. So you can 0:13:30.760 --> 0:13:33.640 only imagine what goes on in detentions that you know, 0:13:33.720 --> 0:13:36.120 detained cases in those states. 0:13:36.520 --> 0:13:39.960 Yeah, people who don't have counsel, like getting that self deportation. 0:13:40.200 --> 0:13:42.160 If you don't have counsel, like you could assume that 0:13:42.200 --> 0:13:45.319 you are just obliged to leave, like yeah, that your 0:13:45.440 --> 0:13:46.240 your process is. 0:13:46.200 --> 0:13:49.520 Over one hundred percent, And there's no legal basis for 0:13:49.559 --> 0:13:51.800 the judge to be issuing that. In fact, it's completely 0:13:52.679 --> 0:13:55.520 unlawful to be issuing something like that at the beginning 0:13:55.559 --> 0:13:57.600 of the case, at the end of the case, and 0:13:57.640 --> 0:14:00.079 at the beginning. The judges have to give certain advisals, 0:14:00.080 --> 0:14:02.960 but telling somebody to self deport is number an advisor 0:14:03.000 --> 0:14:04.360 that should be given under the law. 0:14:04.480 --> 0:14:07.840 Ever, right, Yeah, like it kind of nullifies the whole system. 0:14:08.040 --> 0:14:10.840 And plus I should mention real quick that it's disingenuous 0:14:10.840 --> 0:14:14.640 and harmful and that with these you know, this administration 0:14:15.040 --> 0:14:18.240 on purpose isn't telling people with one thousand dollars, take 0:14:18.280 --> 0:14:20.760 a thousand dollars in self deport and you know, will 0:14:20.760 --> 0:14:22.640 pay for your flight and all this stuff. But they're 0:14:22.640 --> 0:14:25.280 not telling people is that when you leave, you are 0:14:25.320 --> 0:14:27.800 then subject to a deportation order and that comes with 0:14:27.840 --> 0:14:31.600 a ten year bar This is not mentioned, and that's 0:14:31.640 --> 0:14:32.400 a big deal. 0:14:32.840 --> 0:14:35.640 Yes, yeah, I mean it seems even like I think 0:14:35.640 --> 0:14:39.280 the executive order said permanently leave the United States, right. 0:14:39.520 --> 0:14:42.840 Well it did, and then but then they switch tactics 0:14:42.880 --> 0:14:45.640 a little bit with the app to self deport saying like, 0:14:45.840 --> 0:14:48.200 you know, leave now, leave now so you have a 0:14:48.320 --> 0:14:50.880 chance to come back later or something like that, right, 0:14:50.960 --> 0:14:53.160 but you know without mentioning that, hey you no, you're 0:14:53.200 --> 0:14:56.040 barred from the United States for ten years and if 0:14:56.080 --> 0:14:59.080 you ever return unlawfully, then you're a subject to a 0:14:59.120 --> 0:15:01.360 whole series of you know. Yeah, I mean, it's just 0:15:01.360 --> 0:15:03.040 there's all these warnings that need to come with the 0:15:03.080 --> 0:15:05.720 deportation order that are strategically left out of all the 0:15:05.760 --> 0:15:08.000 administration's latest messaging on this topic. 0:15:08.880 --> 0:15:12.440 Yeah, it's pretty bad. Let's take a break for advertisements 0:15:12.480 --> 0:15:25.920 here and it will come back all right, we are back, 0:15:26.440 --> 0:15:30.360 and so we've spoken about these like self deportation orders, 0:15:30.440 --> 0:15:33.760 right for other people who have entered more recently, right, 0:15:34.000 --> 0:15:36.960 entered within the last two years. This has been happening 0:15:37.000 --> 0:15:39.840 we're recording on the twenty second for the last two 0:15:39.960 --> 0:15:44.600 days now. It seems like ICE is dismissing the cases 0:15:44.640 --> 0:15:48.680 against them and then detaining them directly in court, if 0:15:48.680 --> 0:15:50.120 I'm correctly informed. 0:15:50.720 --> 0:15:55.080 Yes, So this has been happening periodically throughout the past 0:15:55.080 --> 0:15:58.200 four months, but in the past few days, like this week, 0:15:58.320 --> 0:16:01.000 it's been dramatically ramped up, Like right now as we're 0:16:01.040 --> 0:16:03.880 recording this, ICE is arresting people in the downtown San 0:16:03.880 --> 0:16:07.520 Diego court and also courts throughout the country. It's been 0:16:07.560 --> 0:16:11.680 reported everywhere, happening widely this week. And this is another 0:16:11.680 --> 0:16:13.720 thing the administration said they were going to do and 0:16:13.840 --> 0:16:15.520 is doing. I mean, you know, they're doing what they 0:16:15.520 --> 0:16:16.400 said they were going to do. 0:16:16.760 --> 0:16:18.480 Yeah, And it's. 0:16:18.400 --> 0:16:21.920 To use what's called two thirty five authority. More broadly 0:16:22.000 --> 0:16:24.880 so Ina Section two thirty five applies to people who 0:16:25.280 --> 0:16:28.200 entered within less than two years, like you said, and 0:16:28.600 --> 0:16:31.720 they can be then subject to what's called expedited removal. 0:16:32.440 --> 0:16:34.440 That means that they have to take a credible fear 0:16:35.040 --> 0:16:37.920 interview and be detained, and that they only get to 0:16:37.920 --> 0:16:40.200 fight a case if they pass their credible fear interview, 0:16:40.240 --> 0:16:43.080 and then they do not qualify for an immigration judge bond, 0:16:43.240 --> 0:16:45.000 So they only get out if Ice lets them out, 0:16:45.000 --> 0:16:48.240 which of course I is letting nobody out. So the 0:16:48.680 --> 0:16:51.760 administration wants to have people detained under this authority, this 0:16:51.800 --> 0:16:55.280 two thirty five authority, as much as possible, to have 0:16:55.440 --> 0:16:59.280 them have to fight their case detained and either lose 0:16:59.320 --> 0:17:02.800 the will to do so and or not be able 0:17:02.840 --> 0:17:05.359 to afford an attorney, because detained cases move along a 0:17:05.359 --> 0:17:08.520 lot quicker and are very costly as well for that reason. 0:17:08.840 --> 0:17:12.880 So what they're doing is anybody who was here two 0:17:12.960 --> 0:17:15.320 years or less but was parolled in so they're in 0:17:15.359 --> 0:17:18.080 the regular immigration court proceedings they got out there under 0:17:18.080 --> 0:17:21.680 two forty proceedings, that's called so DHS attorneys in court 0:17:21.760 --> 0:17:24.959 are terminating those proceedings. They're asking the judge to terminate 0:17:25.000 --> 0:17:27.399 the two forty proceedings, so then that case is closed 0:17:27.400 --> 0:17:29.960 and then they immediately restart a case under section two 0:17:30.000 --> 0:17:32.800 thirty five. And at the second they do that, the 0:17:32.840 --> 0:17:35.600 person is subject to mandatory detention, and ICE is right 0:17:35.600 --> 0:17:38.359 there in the courthouse to arrest them and detain them. 0:17:38.600 --> 0:17:43.160 Jesus, Yeah, I thought ICE couldn't arrest people in California's 0:17:43.200 --> 0:17:47.160 at California state courts, no federal courts which were in California. 0:17:47.200 --> 0:17:49.840 I believe so, and colleagues and I have been talking 0:17:49.840 --> 0:17:52.520 about this. I haven't researched it thoroughly, but I think 0:17:52.600 --> 0:17:55.960 also the nature of these proceedings, like the two thirty 0:17:55.960 --> 0:17:59.520 five proceeding, like you are mandatory detention, like you okay, 0:17:59.520 --> 0:18:02.159 you were taken into custody. It's as if you just 0:18:02.200 --> 0:18:05.640 cross the border and you know, are taken into custody. 0:18:05.720 --> 0:18:07.520 It's treated like like that type of situation, like no 0:18:07.600 --> 0:18:08.440 warrant is necessary. 0:18:08.480 --> 0:18:09.280 I don't believe you know. 0:18:09.480 --> 0:18:12.120 Oh okay, right, yeah, so they could they have very 0:18:12.160 --> 0:18:15.880 broad authority to detain people any way. That makes sense exactly. 0:18:16.200 --> 0:18:20.080 So the real issue here is the ethical I mean 0:18:20.080 --> 0:18:21.480 a lot of us are grappling with this and of 0:18:21.480 --> 0:18:26.080 course fiercely opposing these motions in that the justification that 0:18:26.119 --> 0:18:29.720 the DHS attorneys are attempting to use is that circumstances 0:18:29.760 --> 0:18:33.840 have materially changed since the issuance of their initial case 0:18:33.880 --> 0:18:37.040 that they're in now, which of course is not the. 0:18:37.080 --> 0:18:40.439 Case, right, Like whose circumstances. 0:18:39.880 --> 0:18:43.399 Exactly exactly, Like the rise of fascism doesn't constitute a 0:18:43.480 --> 0:18:48.320 change circumstance. Yeah, So it's just there's no there's no 0:18:48.400 --> 0:18:51.720 basis for this motion. And secondly, the only basis, like, 0:18:51.720 --> 0:18:56.320 there's zero justification for this other than filling detention centers, 0:18:56.520 --> 0:18:59.840 lining cour Civic and Geogroup's pockets. Yeah, and in ten 0:19:00.520 --> 0:19:04.080 prejudicing an immigrant to have to fight their case attained. 0:19:04.160 --> 0:19:08.680 I mean right, there's no there's no good or legitimate 0:19:08.960 --> 0:19:11.280 justification for this period the end, you know. 0:19:11.880 --> 0:19:14.359 Yeah, and fighting it detained will be a lot harder. 0:19:14.359 --> 0:19:17.480 They will be obviously in like terrible situation they are, 0:19:17.640 --> 0:19:20.159 as we've covered before, often moved to a different state 0:19:20.200 --> 0:19:22.639 from their council. Will make it a lot harder for 0:19:22.680 --> 0:19:24.800 them if they choose to go that route. I'm guessing 0:19:24.880 --> 0:19:27.800 that ICE is hoping that people won't fight and will 0:19:27.960 --> 0:19:29.760 just or DHS it is hoping that people will just 0:19:29.840 --> 0:19:30.560 choose not to fight. 0:19:32.040 --> 0:19:37.440 That's the whole point is this whole administration's the messaging 0:19:37.480 --> 0:19:41.640 and their actions are all about forcing people breaking people's 0:19:41.640 --> 0:19:45.040 spirits and forcing them into a situation where they feel 0:19:45.080 --> 0:19:49.560 their only option is to self deport. Yeah, it is heartbreaking, 0:19:49.640 --> 0:19:53.600 it's very sick. Yeah, it's it's very disturbing. It's very 0:19:53.720 --> 0:19:55.720 very different from Trump one point zero. 0:19:56.200 --> 0:19:58.919 Yeah. I think that's worth sort of focusing in on 0:19:58.960 --> 0:20:03.120 that this is a complete, distinct and much more radical 0:20:03.720 --> 0:20:06.760 disassembling of the asylum system as we know it. 0:20:07.160 --> 0:20:07.760 Absolutely. 0:20:07.800 --> 0:20:10.520 I mean, I think we can all agree or disagree 0:20:10.520 --> 0:20:12.880 as far as how we feel about the past four 0:20:12.880 --> 0:20:15.800 months and what has happened, but I think everybody can 0:20:15.840 --> 0:20:19.359 agree that the pace at which it has happened is 0:20:19.400 --> 0:20:20.480