1 00:00:01,720 --> 00:00:07,600 Speaker 1: All media. Hi everyone, and welcome to the show. It's 2 00:00:07,680 --> 00:00:11,039 Speaker 1: me James today and I'm joined once again by Kirsten Zitlau. 3 00:00:11,119 --> 00:00:13,400 Speaker 1: We've heard from her before. She's an immigration lawyer who 4 00:00:13,400 --> 00:00:15,640 Speaker 1: takes asylum cases, and we're going to talk about the 5 00:00:15,680 --> 00:00:18,720 Speaker 1: asylum system or I guess what's left of it today. 6 00:00:19,120 --> 00:00:23,360 Speaker 1: Kirsten is representing somebody I met, the Darien gap Primrose, 7 00:00:23,360 --> 00:00:24,840 Speaker 1: who you've heard from before. So we're going to talk 8 00:00:24,880 --> 00:00:26,279 Speaker 1: about that case and then we're going to talk a 9 00:00:26,320 --> 00:00:30,159 Speaker 1: little bit about ice detentions inside immigration court. Welcome to 10 00:00:30,200 --> 00:00:30,960 Speaker 1: the show, Kristin. 11 00:00:31,080 --> 00:00:32,800 Speaker 2: Thank you, James, it's good to be here. 12 00:00:33,159 --> 00:00:36,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, thanks for thanks for coming. I know you're extremely busy. 13 00:00:36,680 --> 00:00:40,199 Speaker 1: Can you explain to us, like the asylum system is 14 00:00:40,280 --> 00:00:44,120 Speaker 1: essentially coming to an end, right, we are not getting 15 00:00:44,159 --> 00:00:47,280 Speaker 1: new asylum cases, Like what is the situation for people 16 00:00:47,600 --> 00:00:50,160 Speaker 1: in the asylum system right now? 17 00:00:50,880 --> 00:00:54,960 Speaker 3: Yes, that's a correct statement, James. So there are no 18 00:00:55,120 --> 00:00:59,440 Speaker 3: new asylum cases. In other words, people who cross at 19 00:00:59,440 --> 00:01:04,440 Speaker 3: the Southern Order are now detained only to be removed 20 00:01:04,680 --> 00:01:08,240 Speaker 3: immediately basically or as soon as possible, under what's called 21 00:01:08,360 --> 00:01:12,960 Speaker 3: two twelve F authority. It's under the Immigration and Nationality Act. 22 00:01:13,640 --> 00:01:18,200 Speaker 3: Trump has used this authority, which basically broadly says that 23 00:01:18,560 --> 00:01:23,119 Speaker 3: if the President finds a certain class of immigrants or 24 00:01:23,600 --> 00:01:26,000 Speaker 3: the entry of immigrants would be detrimental to the interests 25 00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:29,360 Speaker 3: of the United States, they made by proclamation, you know, 26 00:01:29,480 --> 00:01:33,399 Speaker 3: suspend all entry have said immigrants. So that was the 27 00:01:33,440 --> 00:01:37,480 Speaker 3: purpose and the effect of the executive order discussing the 28 00:01:37,520 --> 00:01:40,200 Speaker 3: invasion at the border, and all the other executive orders 29 00:01:40,200 --> 00:01:46,120 Speaker 3: discussing invasions and criminal aspects such as cartels and trender ragua, 30 00:01:46,160 --> 00:01:49,560 Speaker 3: which we all know now is you know, is the 31 00:01:49,680 --> 00:01:54,800 Speaker 3: justification for alleged justification for just shutting it down at 32 00:01:54,800 --> 00:01:58,960 Speaker 3: the border. So whereas people used to get credible fear 33 00:01:59,040 --> 00:02:02,680 Speaker 3: interviews or were parolled into the United States to be 34 00:02:02,720 --> 00:02:05,720 Speaker 3: allowed to fight an asylum case, none of that is 35 00:02:05,760 --> 00:02:09,520 Speaker 3: happening anymore. And people are, if anything, only screened for 36 00:02:09,600 --> 00:02:13,959 Speaker 3: what's called Convention against Torture screenings to just determine like, hey, 37 00:02:13,960 --> 00:02:16,720 Speaker 3: are they going to be portrayed by their government or 38 00:02:16,720 --> 00:02:19,040 Speaker 3: with the acquiescence of their government if they returned to 39 00:02:19,080 --> 00:02:22,160 Speaker 3: their home country. But even then they are not allowed 40 00:02:22,160 --> 00:02:24,360 Speaker 3: to remain in the United States or fight any relief 41 00:02:24,360 --> 00:02:26,120 Speaker 3: in the United States. That just means that they will 42 00:02:26,160 --> 00:02:29,200 Speaker 3: be deported to a third country. So that was a 43 00:02:29,240 --> 00:02:32,160 Speaker 3: situation like when we saw the Iranians sitting in the 44 00:02:32,200 --> 00:02:35,000 Speaker 3: hotel room in Panama, That's what happened there most likely. 45 00:02:35,800 --> 00:02:38,600 Speaker 3: So that's the situation at the southern border. Whoever is 46 00:02:38,639 --> 00:02:40,600 Speaker 3: still in the United States, you know, who came in 47 00:02:40,639 --> 00:02:42,840 Speaker 3: before in Operation Day, is still allowed to fight their 48 00:02:42,880 --> 00:02:46,720 Speaker 3: case as of now, but there are no new asylum 49 00:02:46,760 --> 00:02:48,959 Speaker 3: cases essentially, right. 50 00:02:49,200 --> 00:02:53,000 Speaker 1: So for those people fighting their case, the asylum system 51 00:02:53,040 --> 00:02:56,560 Speaker 1: was already an uphill battle, right, and it became hot 52 00:02:57,000 --> 00:03:02,360 Speaker 1: after Biden's asylum ban. It's already had after title forty two. 53 00:03:02,880 --> 00:03:04,600 Speaker 1: Like people who listen to the show will have known 54 00:03:04,600 --> 00:03:07,600 Speaker 1: about the people who crushed in twenty twenty three, and 55 00:03:07,760 --> 00:03:09,480 Speaker 1: of course they would have followed those people who I'm 56 00:03:09,520 --> 00:03:12,320 Speaker 1: in the drying gap, some of whom very few of 57 00:03:12,360 --> 00:03:18,000 Speaker 1: whom crushed before January. I literally one I believe that 58 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:20,840 Speaker 1: I'm aware of. Can you explain what the asylum system 59 00:03:20,960 --> 00:03:22,280 Speaker 1: is like for those people now? 60 00:03:22,919 --> 00:03:23,160 Speaker 2: Yeah? 61 00:03:23,160 --> 00:03:26,280 Speaker 3: So I think the biggest two factors affecting asylum cases 62 00:03:26,320 --> 00:03:29,000 Speaker 3: these days is what you just referred to, which is 63 00:03:29,040 --> 00:03:33,680 Speaker 3: the asylum ban called the circumvention against lawful pathways that 64 00:03:34,600 --> 00:03:37,680 Speaker 3: barred people essentially from asylum if they did not use 65 00:03:37,720 --> 00:03:41,680 Speaker 3: CBP one the application to apply for an appointment, which 66 00:03:41,760 --> 00:03:44,360 Speaker 3: of course only allowed I think fifteen hundred a day 67 00:03:44,440 --> 00:03:48,400 Speaker 3: or something absurd, forcing most people to cross unlawfully. So 68 00:03:48,520 --> 00:03:51,440 Speaker 3: that's still very much in place. The litigation has been 69 00:03:51,560 --> 00:03:55,000 Speaker 3: stalled forever. There's no hope of you know, I don't 70 00:03:55,040 --> 00:03:57,080 Speaker 3: think there's no movement on that. I haven't seen or 71 00:03:57,120 --> 00:04:00,360 Speaker 3: heard anything. Yeah, most likely intentionally because when Trump did 72 00:04:00,400 --> 00:04:02,880 Speaker 3: a similar ban, it was overturned immediately. So this is 73 00:04:02,920 --> 00:04:05,080 Speaker 3: like a new strategy that we're seeing where things are 74 00:04:05,120 --> 00:04:08,200 Speaker 3: just lagging in court right. You know, for example, just 75 00:04:08,240 --> 00:04:11,600 Speaker 3: a quick side detour the birthright citizenship issue got up 76 00:04:11,640 --> 00:04:14,480 Speaker 3: to the Supreme Court real quick, whereas the asylum issue, 77 00:04:14,960 --> 00:04:17,719 Speaker 3: meaning the border shut down to asylum, is still languishing 78 00:04:17,760 --> 00:04:20,320 Speaker 3: somewhere before. I think even just a federal district judge 79 00:04:20,440 --> 00:04:23,360 Speaker 3: is not even in any appeal court yet. So this 80 00:04:23,400 --> 00:04:27,080 Speaker 3: is all I think, it's strategic, so that circumventioning as 81 00:04:27,120 --> 00:04:30,880 Speaker 3: lawful pathways ban is still very much an impediment. You know, 82 00:04:30,920 --> 00:04:33,679 Speaker 3: we all of course argue that every migrant in Mexico 83 00:04:33,800 --> 00:04:36,880 Speaker 3: was in danger and thus qualifies for the exception to 84 00:04:37,040 --> 00:04:39,760 Speaker 3: the CLP that their life was in danger and they 85 00:04:39,760 --> 00:04:42,039 Speaker 3: couldn't afford to wait the many many months for the 86 00:04:42,080 --> 00:04:46,799 Speaker 3: CBP one appointment. But judges it's been met with mixed reviews. 87 00:04:47,120 --> 00:04:50,840 Speaker 3: They generally like to see like somebody basically near death 88 00:04:51,000 --> 00:04:55,080 Speaker 3: for the exception to apply. And of course the immigration 89 00:04:55,200 --> 00:04:58,960 Speaker 3: bar argues that all migrants are basically under threat of death. 90 00:04:59,800 --> 00:05:03,160 Speaker 3: Any cartel or even immigration official contact in Mexico could 91 00:05:03,200 --> 00:05:05,760 Speaker 3: have been a death sentence very easily, as we all know. 92 00:05:06,120 --> 00:05:07,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, so that's a big thing affecting. 93 00:05:07,800 --> 00:05:10,680 Speaker 3: The latest thing that's also being implemented as a result 94 00:05:10,800 --> 00:05:17,599 Speaker 3: of this cartel terrorist organization designation is you know where 95 00:05:17,640 --> 00:05:19,960 Speaker 3: it's not just the cartels is MS thirteen and ten 96 00:05:20,040 --> 00:05:24,240 Speaker 3: dew Ragua is that there's a what's called a trig 97 00:05:24,279 --> 00:05:27,640 Speaker 3: bar that's applied then also to asylum and the bar 98 00:05:27,920 --> 00:05:31,320 Speaker 3: is basically about material support of any of these groups, 99 00:05:31,880 --> 00:05:36,200 Speaker 3: but it's construed to an absurd degree where even if 100 00:05:36,240 --> 00:05:39,800 Speaker 3: you made a bowl of food for Samaras under duress, 101 00:05:40,279 --> 00:05:42,800 Speaker 3: or you made payment because your kid was about to 102 00:05:42,839 --> 00:05:46,240 Speaker 3: be killed, right, that's considered material support in your barred 103 00:05:46,240 --> 00:05:46,960 Speaker 3: from asylum. 104 00:05:47,400 --> 00:05:48,479 Speaker 1: I wondered if they would do that. 105 00:05:48,600 --> 00:05:50,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, so we're seeing that too. 106 00:05:51,279 --> 00:05:53,640 Speaker 3: Other than that, I mean, I have been fortunate to 107 00:05:53,680 --> 00:05:56,520 Speaker 3: win asylum for folks under Trump two point zero. I mean, 108 00:05:56,560 --> 00:05:59,400 Speaker 3: I don't know how long that'll still last, but judges 109 00:05:59,440 --> 00:06:03,000 Speaker 3: are still you know, granting cases. So I'm glad to 110 00:06:03,040 --> 00:06:03,400 Speaker 3: see that. 111 00:06:03,720 --> 00:06:04,080 Speaker 1: Yeah. 112 00:06:04,240 --> 00:06:06,680 Speaker 3: So that's generally what it's looked like these past four 113 00:06:06,720 --> 00:06:08,360 Speaker 3: months for Assil's Okay. 114 00:06:08,760 --> 00:06:10,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it's really important that we do. There 115 00:06:10,800 --> 00:06:13,800 Speaker 1: are still possible, like victories to be had within the 116 00:06:13,800 --> 00:06:16,679 Speaker 1: court system, and asylum is one of the places where, 117 00:06:16,720 --> 00:06:19,120 Speaker 1: like there's no more getting me on the train. I 118 00:06:19,120 --> 00:06:21,159 Speaker 1: guess like the people who are on the train now 119 00:06:21,440 --> 00:06:24,240 Speaker 1: we can and people should if they have the financial means, 120 00:06:24,240 --> 00:06:25,960 Speaker 1: and we'll talk about how they can do that later. 121 00:06:26,160 --> 00:06:29,440 Speaker 1: People should support those people because there's no one else 122 00:06:29,520 --> 00:06:32,000 Speaker 1: who can go through that system, and like, there are 123 00:06:32,000 --> 00:06:35,279 Speaker 1: people who have gone through horrific things to get here, 124 00:06:35,279 --> 00:06:37,320 Speaker 1: and horrific things in the places that they came from. 125 00:06:37,360 --> 00:06:39,960 Speaker 1: And even if it's not everyone we would like to 126 00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:41,560 Speaker 1: keep safe, we should do everything we can to keep 127 00:06:41,560 --> 00:06:43,080 Speaker 1: those people safe. 128 00:06:42,680 --> 00:06:44,880 Speaker 3: One hundred percent, you know, just to say I mean 129 00:06:44,960 --> 00:06:48,520 Speaker 3: and funding somebody's legal fees. I mean, an attorney makes 130 00:06:48,600 --> 00:06:52,560 Speaker 3: all the difference in navigating these types of issues that 131 00:06:52,600 --> 00:06:55,200 Speaker 3: I just talked about and other issues and presenting your case. 132 00:06:55,240 --> 00:06:58,120 Speaker 3: I mean, asylum cases are still incredibly difficult to win, 133 00:06:58,200 --> 00:07:00,680 Speaker 3: and so representation of counsel is of than key. 134 00:07:01,560 --> 00:07:03,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that the rates of success people who 135 00:07:03,680 --> 00:07:06,560 Speaker 1: don't have counsel are dramatically lower. I haven't looked on 136 00:07:06,600 --> 00:07:09,000 Speaker 1: Track recently, but you can normally find that on the 137 00:07:09,640 --> 00:07:11,720 Speaker 1: I think Track is no longer the University of Syracuse, 138 00:07:11,760 --> 00:07:13,200 Speaker 1: but it did. It did some place where you can 139 00:07:13,200 --> 00:07:18,800 Speaker 1: find information statistics. Let's talk about one of those cases, 140 00:07:18,840 --> 00:07:22,600 Speaker 1: if that's okay, And obviously you know we won't intervening 141 00:07:22,600 --> 00:07:24,680 Speaker 1: anyone's perhaps any more than we have to. But like 142 00:07:25,240 --> 00:07:28,360 Speaker 1: I want to talk about Primrose. Primrose is Zimbabwean woman 143 00:07:28,480 --> 00:07:31,400 Speaker 1: who I met in Bajaji Gito when I was in 144 00:07:31,520 --> 00:07:34,440 Speaker 1: the Darien Gap reporting on my series. People heard from 145 00:07:34,440 --> 00:07:35,840 Speaker 1: her in the series. 146 00:07:36,400 --> 00:07:38,360 Speaker 4: Even me. I was crying myself. I was like, I 147 00:07:38,800 --> 00:07:41,840 Speaker 4: want to just put myself in the water. Then again, 148 00:07:42,000 --> 00:07:46,520 Speaker 4: just or the gain was tough, really really tough, the mountain, 149 00:07:46,680 --> 00:07:51,400 Speaker 4: the stones, the river. It's not easy at all. It's 150 00:07:51,440 --> 00:07:55,240 Speaker 4: not a very I don't even recommended someone to say, yeah, 151 00:07:55,240 --> 00:07:58,280 Speaker 4: you lose that and give no. And even myself, I 152 00:07:58,360 --> 00:08:01,880 Speaker 4: did know about it. Yeah, I was regretting myself. I 153 00:08:01,920 --> 00:08:05,760 Speaker 4: was crying. I was like, good, I don't know my 154 00:08:05,880 --> 00:08:08,200 Speaker 4: family and my family they don't know where I am 155 00:08:08,360 --> 00:08:08,960 Speaker 4: right now. 156 00:08:09,040 --> 00:08:15,200 Speaker 1: But I make it. Yeah, make it You're safe. Yeah, 157 00:08:15,240 --> 00:08:19,480 Speaker 1: she is now in the asylum process, right, can you 158 00:08:19,520 --> 00:08:22,320 Speaker 1: explain a little bit about like where she is in 159 00:08:22,360 --> 00:08:25,000 Speaker 1: the process. And I will eventually do a scripted series 160 00:08:25,040 --> 00:08:26,960 Speaker 1: on this, but like I guess, can we get an 161 00:08:27,040 --> 00:08:30,280 Speaker 1: update on her situation and how it's progressing. 162 00:08:30,400 --> 00:08:31,200 Speaker 2: Absolutely so. 163 00:08:31,560 --> 00:08:33,920 Speaker 3: I came into the case about I want to say, 164 00:08:33,920 --> 00:08:37,800 Speaker 3: a month or two ago, she had somebody supporting her, 165 00:08:37,880 --> 00:08:42,880 Speaker 3: a friend living in Texas, and that situation, a living situation, 166 00:08:42,960 --> 00:08:46,480 Speaker 3: has changed, I believe, which is also not the worst 167 00:08:46,559 --> 00:08:49,240 Speaker 3: thing she's but she will be moving with a friend 168 00:08:49,240 --> 00:08:52,200 Speaker 3: to southern California or moving in with a friend rather, 169 00:08:52,360 --> 00:08:56,880 Speaker 3: But just this situation is very different in Texas and 170 00:08:56,960 --> 00:09:01,200 Speaker 3: Louisiana and Mississippi and those types of states markedly so. 171 00:09:01,360 --> 00:09:04,040 Speaker 3: And her case is a good example of that. And 172 00:09:04,120 --> 00:09:07,760 Speaker 3: there's a reason that people like Mamu Khalil and many 173 00:09:07,840 --> 00:09:10,839 Speaker 3: others are sent to detention centers in that area because 174 00:09:10,840 --> 00:09:12,960 Speaker 3: it's in the Fifth Circuit, first of all, which is 175 00:09:13,840 --> 00:09:17,280 Speaker 3: widely renowned to be not a favorable circuit court of 176 00:09:17,320 --> 00:09:18,319 Speaker 3: appeals to immigrants. 177 00:09:18,440 --> 00:09:18,840 Speaker 1: Yeah. 178 00:09:18,880 --> 00:09:22,320 Speaker 3: But more so than that, even the judges themselves are 179 00:09:22,400 --> 00:09:25,800 Speaker 3: very different from what we would encounter in California, for example. 180 00:09:26,400 --> 00:09:29,120 Speaker 3: So my first encounter with the judge was, you know, 181 00:09:29,120 --> 00:09:31,880 Speaker 3: and this is all virtual. I submitted a motion to 182 00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:32,840 Speaker 3: appear for her. 183 00:09:33,240 --> 00:09:35,640 Speaker 2: She had a master calendar hearing in June. 184 00:09:36,240 --> 00:09:40,080 Speaker 3: I submitted amotion to appear for that telephonically, explaining I 185 00:09:40,120 --> 00:09:42,720 Speaker 3: was representing her at lower no cost, you know, whatever 186 00:09:42,760 --> 00:09:45,280 Speaker 3: funds could be raised, and could I please appear for 187 00:09:45,360 --> 00:09:49,960 Speaker 3: as it's a status type conference telephonically. And that motion 188 00:09:50,559 --> 00:09:53,480 Speaker 3: was met with a really strange response. I don't to 189 00:09:53,520 --> 00:09:55,400 Speaker 3: this day, I don't really know exactly. It was sort 190 00:09:55,400 --> 00:09:58,640 Speaker 3: of approved, but then moot because eventually a final court 191 00:09:58,679 --> 00:10:01,280 Speaker 3: hearing was set. So that's where we're right now. She 192 00:10:01,320 --> 00:10:04,240 Speaker 3: has a final court next year and about a year 193 00:10:04,360 --> 00:10:07,400 Speaker 3: and a couple months. But in ruling on my WebEx motion, 194 00:10:07,840 --> 00:10:10,520 Speaker 3: I was emailed the order of the judge along with 195 00:10:10,600 --> 00:10:11,640 Speaker 3: a notice. 196 00:10:11,520 --> 00:10:13,400 Speaker 2: That premiers should self deport. 197 00:10:14,360 --> 00:10:18,080 Speaker 3: So judges are sending out these notices with routine other 198 00:10:18,320 --> 00:10:23,560 Speaker 3: orders in cases where the immigrant has council is fighting 199 00:10:23,640 --> 00:10:29,840 Speaker 3: their case. It's obvious they're fighting their case Jesus. And yeah, 200 00:10:29,880 --> 00:10:31,640 Speaker 3: so it's one of the things where you just feel 201 00:10:31,760 --> 00:10:34,679 Speaker 3: very strongly this administration's influence. 202 00:10:35,040 --> 00:10:37,040 Speaker 1: Are they obliged to do that or is that a 203 00:10:37,120 --> 00:10:38,520 Speaker 1: choice that the judge is making. 204 00:10:38,760 --> 00:10:41,240 Speaker 3: Not at all, And in fact it's completely inappropriate. So 205 00:10:41,360 --> 00:10:44,040 Speaker 3: all of us are the immigration bar is taking a 206 00:10:44,040 --> 00:10:47,440 Speaker 3: different approach to it. You know, some are filing motions 207 00:10:47,440 --> 00:10:50,360 Speaker 3: to recuse, telling the judges, hey, you need to recuse yourself. 208 00:10:50,360 --> 00:10:52,760 Speaker 3: You're a non neutral judge. To send this out in 209 00:10:52,760 --> 00:10:54,560 Speaker 3: the middle of the case is absurd. It's a due 210 00:10:54,559 --> 00:10:58,080 Speaker 3: process violation. They're entitled to a neutral judge. Yeah, I 211 00:10:58,120 --> 00:11:00,640 Speaker 3: think my approach would be more one of playing dumb, 212 00:11:00,640 --> 00:11:04,320 Speaker 3: because often this has happened. The system, if you will, 213 00:11:04,360 --> 00:11:07,400 Speaker 3: of ecass the electronics system that we use for court 214 00:11:07,400 --> 00:11:10,360 Speaker 3: immigration filing systems that Elon Musk briefly had access to 215 00:11:10,480 --> 00:11:13,520 Speaker 3: or whatever was going on there. But anyways, I digress. 216 00:11:13,760 --> 00:11:17,200 Speaker 3: You know, will send out automatic notices with the emails 217 00:11:17,240 --> 00:11:19,760 Speaker 3: with the judges orders. So my approach, I think will 218 00:11:19,800 --> 00:11:21,520 Speaker 3: be to give the judges the benefit of the doubt 219 00:11:21,559 --> 00:11:23,960 Speaker 3: and ask them if this was an electronic notice and 220 00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:26,120 Speaker 3: if they say no, then I've gotten it on the record, 221 00:11:26,160 --> 00:11:28,040 Speaker 3: and if they deny the case, I have that in 222 00:11:28,080 --> 00:11:31,160 Speaker 3: there for the appeal. But yeah, it's happening all over 223 00:11:31,200 --> 00:11:34,320 Speaker 3: the country with all sorts of different judges, and it's 224 00:11:34,360 --> 00:11:36,320 Speaker 3: definitely something that we're grappling with right now. 225 00:11:36,360 --> 00:11:37,640 Speaker 2: And it's just it's. 226 00:11:37,600 --> 00:11:41,040 Speaker 3: Very ballsy for a judge to say, hey, leave the 227 00:11:41,080 --> 00:11:44,040 Speaker 3: country and oh, by the way, I'm a neutral arbiter. 228 00:11:44,440 --> 00:11:46,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, what's the point of having the judge, 229 00:11:46,480 --> 00:11:49,200 Speaker 1: you having the whole process right if then they're going 230 00:11:49,280 --> 00:11:51,160 Speaker 1: to declare this clear bias. 231 00:11:51,320 --> 00:11:53,880 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a third I mean, it's you know, I mean, 232 00:11:53,920 --> 00:11:56,160 Speaker 3: it's such a violation of due process rights. And I 233 00:11:56,200 --> 00:11:58,680 Speaker 3: think I know everybody in this country now knows the 234 00:11:58,720 --> 00:12:01,520 Speaker 3: importance of due process, whereas before only attorneys through that 235 00:12:01,600 --> 00:12:03,800 Speaker 3: term around. But no, I mean, this stuff really matters, 236 00:12:03,880 --> 00:12:04,080 Speaker 3: you know. 237 00:12:04,559 --> 00:12:05,000 Speaker 1: Yeah. 238 00:12:05,080 --> 00:12:08,520 Speaker 3: And then also another thing that happened in Primrose's case 239 00:12:08,600 --> 00:12:11,400 Speaker 3: is that when you have a work permit clock right, 240 00:12:11,760 --> 00:12:14,400 Speaker 3: which is another absurd thing for assiles that once they 241 00:12:14,400 --> 00:12:16,680 Speaker 3: file their asylum application, they have to wait one hundred 242 00:12:16,720 --> 00:12:17,800 Speaker 3: and fifty days before they can. 243 00:12:17,720 --> 00:12:19,840 Speaker 2: Apply for a work permit. 244 00:12:20,000 --> 00:12:22,800 Speaker 3: And of course they're expected to be independently wealthy during 245 00:12:22,800 --> 00:12:25,280 Speaker 3: those five months or you know, or star or I 246 00:12:25,320 --> 00:12:26,440 Speaker 3: don't know what they're expected to do. 247 00:12:26,800 --> 00:12:29,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, rely on the generosity of others, like exactly. 248 00:12:30,000 --> 00:12:33,160 Speaker 3: So if you do something like try to change venue 249 00:12:33,400 --> 00:12:35,800 Speaker 3: or a motion to continue, if you do something in 250 00:12:35,840 --> 00:12:38,480 Speaker 3: your case that the judge perceives as not moving the 251 00:12:38,520 --> 00:12:41,240 Speaker 3: case along and rather like kind of trying to stall 252 00:12:41,280 --> 00:12:43,959 Speaker 3: it or possibly pausing it or slow it down, the 253 00:12:44,040 --> 00:12:47,400 Speaker 3: judge will stop the work permit clock the days and 254 00:12:47,559 --> 00:12:50,960 Speaker 3: it's a whole thing. So Primroses was stopped because the 255 00:12:51,040 --> 00:12:54,680 Speaker 3: judge wanted her to get an attorney. So usually when 256 00:12:54,800 --> 00:12:57,840 Speaker 3: the case is set for a final hearing, that code 257 00:12:57,840 --> 00:13:01,120 Speaker 3: adjournment code they call it, I know for we have. 258 00:13:01,120 --> 00:13:02,840 Speaker 2: The access to the codes and what stops the clock 259 00:13:02,880 --> 00:13:03,200 Speaker 2: and what. 260 00:13:03,120 --> 00:13:06,680 Speaker 3: Doesn't, And it always restarts the clock because you moved 261 00:13:06,720 --> 00:13:08,640 Speaker 3: your case along because you're setting it for trial. 262 00:13:08,720 --> 00:13:10,880 Speaker 2: It's it's you know, obviously moving your case along. 263 00:13:11,000 --> 00:13:14,839 Speaker 3: Hers was not restarted for whatever reason, yea, And my 264 00:13:15,360 --> 00:13:18,040 Speaker 3: only remedy would be to write some court administrator who 265 00:13:18,120 --> 00:13:19,720 Speaker 3: may or may not ever respond. 266 00:13:20,320 --> 00:13:22,040 Speaker 2: I can't even go to the judge about this. You know, 267 00:13:22,120 --> 00:13:23,040 Speaker 2: it's it's absurd. 268 00:13:23,160 --> 00:13:27,560 Speaker 3: So that's just the situation that one assilie is one 269 00:13:27,559 --> 00:13:30,720 Speaker 3: asylum seeker is dealing with in Texas. So you can 270 00:13:30,760 --> 00:13:33,640 Speaker 3: only imagine what goes on in detentions that you know, 271 00:13:33,720 --> 00:13:36,120 Speaker 3: detained cases in those states. 272 00:13:36,520 --> 00:13:39,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, people who don't have counsel, like getting that self deportation. 273 00:13:40,200 --> 00:13:42,160 Speaker 1: If you don't have counsel, like you could assume that 274 00:13:42,200 --> 00:13:45,319 Speaker 1: you are just obliged to leave, like yeah, that your 275 00:13:45,440 --> 00:13:46,240 Speaker 1: your process is. 276 00:13:46,200 --> 00:13:49,520 Speaker 3: Over one hundred percent, And there's no legal basis for 277 00:13:49,559 --> 00:13:51,800 Speaker 3: the judge to be issuing that. In fact, it's completely 278 00:13:52,679 --> 00:13:55,520 Speaker 3: unlawful to be issuing something like that at the beginning 279 00:13:55,559 --> 00:13:57,600 Speaker 3: of the case, at the end of the case, and 280 00:13:57,640 --> 00:14:00,079 Speaker 3: at the beginning. The judges have to give certain advisals, 281 00:14:00,080 --> 00:14:02,960 Speaker 3: but telling somebody to self deport is number an advisor 282 00:14:03,000 --> 00:14:04,360 Speaker 3: that should be given under the law. 283 00:14:04,480 --> 00:14:07,840 Speaker 1: Ever, right, Yeah, like it kind of nullifies the whole system. 284 00:14:08,040 --> 00:14:10,840 Speaker 3: And plus I should mention real quick that it's disingenuous 285 00:14:10,840 --> 00:14:14,640 Speaker 3: and harmful and that with these you know, this administration 286 00:14:15,040 --> 00:14:18,240 Speaker 3: on purpose isn't telling people with one thousand dollars, take 287 00:14:18,280 --> 00:14:20,760 Speaker 3: a thousand dollars in self deport and you know, will 288 00:14:20,760 --> 00:14:22,640 Speaker 3: pay for your flight and all this stuff. But they're 289 00:14:22,640 --> 00:14:25,280 Speaker 3: not telling people is that when you leave, you are 290 00:14:25,320 --> 00:14:27,800 Speaker 3: then subject to a deportation order and that comes with 291 00:14:27,840 --> 00:14:31,600 Speaker 3: a ten year bar This is not mentioned, and that's 292 00:14:31,640 --> 00:14:32,400 Speaker 3: a big deal. 293 00:14:32,840 --> 00:14:35,640 Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, I mean it seems even like I think 294 00:14:35,640 --> 00:14:39,280 Speaker 1: the executive order said permanently leave the United States, right. 295 00:14:39,520 --> 00:14:42,840 Speaker 3: Well it did, and then but then they switch tactics 296 00:14:42,880 --> 00:14:45,640 Speaker 3: a little bit with the app to self deport saying like, 297 00:14:45,840 --> 00:14:48,200 Speaker 3: you know, leave now, leave now so you have a 298 00:14:48,320 --> 00:14:50,880 Speaker 3: chance to come back later or something like that, right, 299 00:14:50,960 --> 00:14:53,160 Speaker 3: but you know without mentioning that, hey you no, you're 300 00:14:53,200 --> 00:14:56,040 Speaker 3: barred from the United States for ten years and if 301 00:14:56,080 --> 00:14:59,080 Speaker 3: you ever return unlawfully, then you're a subject to a 302 00:14:59,120 --> 00:15:01,360 Speaker 3: whole series of you know. Yeah, I mean, it's just 303 00:15:01,360 --> 00:15:03,040 Speaker 3: there's all these warnings that need to come with the 304 00:15:03,080 --> 00:15:05,720 Speaker 3: deportation order that are strategically left out of all the 305 00:15:05,760 --> 00:15:08,000 Speaker 3: administration's latest messaging on this topic. 306 00:15:08,880 --> 00:15:12,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's pretty bad. Let's take a break for advertisements 307 00:15:12,480 --> 00:15:25,920 Speaker 1: here and it will come back all right, we are back, 308 00:15:26,440 --> 00:15:30,360 Speaker 1: and so we've spoken about these like self deportation orders, 309 00:15:30,440 --> 00:15:33,760 Speaker 1: right for other people who have entered more recently, right, 310 00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:36,960 Speaker 1: entered within the last two years. This has been happening 311 00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:39,840 Speaker 1: we're recording on the twenty second for the last two 312 00:15:39,960 --> 00:15:44,600 Speaker 1: days now. It seems like ICE is dismissing the cases 313 00:15:44,640 --> 00:15:48,680 Speaker 1: against them and then detaining them directly in court, if 314 00:15:48,680 --> 00:15:50,120 Speaker 1: I'm correctly informed. 315 00:15:50,720 --> 00:15:55,080 Speaker 3: Yes, So this has been happening periodically throughout the past 316 00:15:55,080 --> 00:15:58,200 Speaker 3: four months, but in the past few days, like this week, 317 00:15:58,320 --> 00:16:01,000 Speaker 3: it's been dramatically ramped up, Like right now as we're 318 00:16:01,040 --> 00:16:03,880 Speaker 3: recording this, ICE is arresting people in the downtown San 319 00:16:03,880 --> 00:16:07,520 Speaker 3: Diego court and also courts throughout the country. It's been 320 00:16:07,560 --> 00:16:11,680 Speaker 3: reported everywhere, happening widely this week. And this is another 321 00:16:11,680 --> 00:16:13,720 Speaker 3: thing the administration said they were going to do and 322 00:16:13,840 --> 00:16:15,520 Speaker 3: is doing. I mean, you know, they're doing what they 323 00:16:15,520 --> 00:16:16,400 Speaker 3: said they were going to do. 324 00:16:16,760 --> 00:16:18,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, And it's. 325 00:16:18,400 --> 00:16:21,920 Speaker 3: To use what's called two thirty five authority. More broadly 326 00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:24,880 Speaker 3: so Ina Section two thirty five applies to people who 327 00:16:25,280 --> 00:16:28,200 Speaker 3: entered within less than two years, like you said, and 328 00:16:28,600 --> 00:16:31,720 Speaker 3: they can be then subject to what's called expedited removal. 329 00:16:32,440 --> 00:16:34,440 Speaker 3: That means that they have to take a credible fear 330 00:16:35,040 --> 00:16:37,920 Speaker 3: interview and be detained, and that they only get to 331 00:16:37,920 --> 00:16:40,200 Speaker 3: fight a case if they pass their credible fear interview, 332 00:16:40,240 --> 00:16:43,080 Speaker 3: and then they do not qualify for an immigration judge bond, 333 00:16:43,240 --> 00:16:45,000 Speaker 3: So they only get out if Ice lets them out, 334 00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:48,240 Speaker 3: which of course I is letting nobody out. So the 335 00:16:48,680 --> 00:16:51,760 Speaker 3: administration wants to have people detained under this authority, this 336 00:16:51,800 --> 00:16:55,280 Speaker 3: two thirty five authority, as much as possible, to have 337 00:16:55,440 --> 00:16:59,280 Speaker 3: them have to fight their case detained and either lose 338 00:16:59,320 --> 00:17:02,800 Speaker 3: the will to do so and or not be able 339 00:17:02,840 --> 00:17:05,359 Speaker 3: to afford an attorney, because detained cases move along a 340 00:17:05,359 --> 00:17:08,520 Speaker 3: lot quicker and are very costly as well for that reason. 341 00:17:08,840 --> 00:17:12,880 Speaker 3: So what they're doing is anybody who was here two 342 00:17:12,960 --> 00:17:15,320 Speaker 3: years or less but was parolled in so they're in 343 00:17:15,359 --> 00:17:18,080 Speaker 3: the regular immigration court proceedings they got out there under 344 00:17:18,080 --> 00:17:21,680 Speaker 3: two forty proceedings, that's called so DHS attorneys in court 345 00:17:21,760 --> 00:17:24,959 Speaker 3: are terminating those proceedings. They're asking the judge to terminate 346 00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:27,399 Speaker 3: the two forty proceedings, so then that case is closed 347 00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:29,960 Speaker 3: and then they immediately restart a case under section two 348 00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:32,800 Speaker 3: thirty five. And at the second they do that, the 349 00:17:32,840 --> 00:17:35,600 Speaker 3: person is subject to mandatory detention, and ICE is right 350 00:17:35,600 --> 00:17:38,359 Speaker 3: there in the courthouse to arrest them and detain them. 351 00:17:38,600 --> 00:17:43,160 Speaker 1: Jesus, Yeah, I thought ICE couldn't arrest people in California's 352 00:17:43,200 --> 00:17:47,160 Speaker 1: at California state courts, no federal courts which were in California. 353 00:17:47,200 --> 00:17:49,840 Speaker 3: I believe so, and colleagues and I have been talking 354 00:17:49,840 --> 00:17:52,520 Speaker 3: about this. I haven't researched it thoroughly, but I think 355 00:17:52,600 --> 00:17:55,960 Speaker 3: also the nature of these proceedings, like the two thirty 356 00:17:55,960 --> 00:17:59,520 Speaker 3: five proceeding, like you are mandatory detention, like you okay, 357 00:17:59,520 --> 00:18:02,159 Speaker 3: you were taken into custody. It's as if you just 358 00:18:02,200 --> 00:18:05,640 Speaker 3: cross the border and you know, are taken into custody. 359 00:18:05,720 --> 00:18:07,520 Speaker 3: It's treated like like that type of situation, like no 360 00:18:07,600 --> 00:18:08,440 Speaker 3: warrant is necessary. 361 00:18:08,480 --> 00:18:09,280 Speaker 2: I don't believe you know. 362 00:18:09,480 --> 00:18:12,120 Speaker 1: Oh okay, right, yeah, so they could they have very 363 00:18:12,160 --> 00:18:15,880 Speaker 1: broad authority to detain people any way. That makes sense exactly. 364 00:18:16,200 --> 00:18:20,080 Speaker 3: So the real issue here is the ethical I mean 365 00:18:20,080 --> 00:18:21,480 Speaker 3: a lot of us are grappling with this and of 366 00:18:21,480 --> 00:18:26,080 Speaker 3: course fiercely opposing these motions in that the justification that 367 00:18:26,119 --> 00:18:29,720 Speaker 3: the DHS attorneys are attempting to use is that circumstances 368 00:18:29,760 --> 00:18:33,840 Speaker 3: have materially changed since the issuance of their initial case 369 00:18:33,880 --> 00:18:37,040 Speaker 3: that they're in now, which of course is not the. 370 00:18:37,080 --> 00:18:40,439 Speaker 1: Case, right, Like whose circumstances. 371 00:18:39,880 --> 00:18:43,399 Speaker 3: Exactly exactly, Like the rise of fascism doesn't constitute a 372 00:18:43,480 --> 00:18:48,320 Speaker 3: change circumstance. Yeah, So it's just there's no there's no 373 00:18:48,400 --> 00:18:51,720 Speaker 3: basis for this motion. And secondly, the only basis, like, 374 00:18:51,720 --> 00:18:56,320 Speaker 3: there's zero justification for this other than filling detention centers, 375 00:18:56,520 --> 00:18:59,840 Speaker 3: lining cour Civic and Geogroup's pockets. Yeah, and in ten 376 00:19:00,520 --> 00:19:04,080 Speaker 3: prejudicing an immigrant to have to fight their case attained. 377 00:19:04,160 --> 00:19:08,680 Speaker 3: I mean right, there's no there's no good or legitimate 378 00:19:08,960 --> 00:19:11,280 Speaker 3: justification for this period the end, you know. 379 00:19:11,880 --> 00:19:14,359 Speaker 1: Yeah, and fighting it detained will be a lot harder. 380 00:19:14,359 --> 00:19:17,480 Speaker 1: They will be obviously in like terrible situation they are, 381 00:19:17,640 --> 00:19:20,159 Speaker 1: as we've covered before, often moved to a different state 382 00:19:20,200 --> 00:19:22,639 Speaker 1: from their council. Will make it a lot harder for 383 00:19:22,680 --> 00:19:24,800 Speaker 1: them if they choose to go that route. I'm guessing 384 00:19:24,880 --> 00:19:27,800 Speaker 1: that ICE is hoping that people won't fight and will 385 00:19:27,960 --> 00:19:29,760 Speaker 1: just or DHS it is hoping that people will just 386 00:19:29,840 --> 00:19:30,560 Speaker 1: choose not to fight. 387 00:19:32,040 --> 00:19:37,440 Speaker 3: That's the whole point is this whole administration's the messaging 388 00:19:37,480 --> 00:19:41,640 Speaker 3: and their actions are all about forcing people breaking people's 389 00:19:41,640 --> 00:19:45,040 Speaker 3: spirits and forcing them into a situation where they feel 390 00:19:45,080 --> 00:19:49,560 Speaker 3: their only option is to self deport. Yeah, it is heartbreaking, 391 00:19:49,640 --> 00:19:53,600 Speaker 3: it's very sick. Yeah, it's it's very disturbing. It's very 392 00:19:53,720 --> 00:19:55,720 Speaker 3: very different from Trump one point zero. 393 00:19:56,200 --> 00:19:58,919 Speaker 1: Yeah. I think that's worth sort of focusing in on 394 00:19:58,960 --> 00:20:03,120 Speaker 1: that this is a complete, distinct and much more radical 395 00:20:03,720 --> 00:20:06,760 Speaker 1: disassembling of the asylum system as we know it. 396 00:20:07,160 --> 00:20:07,760 Speaker 2: Absolutely. 397 00:20:07,800 --> 00:20:10,520 Speaker 3: I mean, I think we can all agree or disagree 398 00:20:10,520 --> 00:20:12,880 Speaker 3: as far as how we feel about the past four 399 00:20:12,880 --> 00:20:15,800 Speaker 3: months and what has happened, but I think everybody can 400 00:20:15,840 --> 00:20:19,359 Speaker 3: agree that the pace at which it has happened is 401 00:20:19,400 --> 00:20:20,480 Speaker 3: extremely concerning. 402 00:20:20,920 --> 00:20:24,760 Speaker 1: Right, we are four months into four years, and we 403 00:20:24,920 --> 00:20:29,520 Speaker 1: have seen at constitutional crisis, like a full blown defiance 404 00:20:29,560 --> 00:20:32,800 Speaker 1: of the courts. We at the day we're recording, the 405 00:20:32,800 --> 00:20:36,160 Speaker 1: Trump administration is attempting to deport people to South Sudan, 406 00:20:37,080 --> 00:20:39,199 Speaker 1: many of whom eleven of twelve of whom are not 407 00:20:39,320 --> 00:20:40,320 Speaker 1: seuth Sudanese. 408 00:20:40,440 --> 00:20:40,640 Speaker 2: Right. 409 00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:44,000 Speaker 1: I guess from what I understand, their attempt at giving 410 00:20:44,040 --> 00:20:47,960 Speaker 1: those people a credible fear screening was that they didn't 411 00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:50,800 Speaker 1: hear them shouting from the cells they were detained in, 412 00:20:50,880 --> 00:20:53,040 Speaker 1: that they were afraid of being tortured. 413 00:20:53,440 --> 00:20:57,639 Speaker 3: Yeah, they're supposed to give them opportunity to be heard 414 00:20:57,760 --> 00:21:01,800 Speaker 3: essentially and give notice of this country that they're going 415 00:21:01,840 --> 00:21:04,080 Speaker 3: to be deported to. That nobody and no judge is 416 00:21:04,119 --> 00:21:06,320 Speaker 3: ever considered whether they have a fear or if they 417 00:21:06,320 --> 00:21:08,080 Speaker 3: would be in danger deported. 418 00:21:07,640 --> 00:21:08,520 Speaker 2: To this country. 419 00:21:08,800 --> 00:21:11,960 Speaker 3: Right, So again, this is a due process situation where hey, 420 00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:14,640 Speaker 3: before you can be sent to some random country, especially 421 00:21:14,720 --> 00:21:17,840 Speaker 3: South Sudan, maybe you should be given an opportunity to 422 00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:20,640 Speaker 3: present why you have a fear or that something bad 423 00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:22,879 Speaker 3: might happen to you over there to a judge. And 424 00:21:22,960 --> 00:21:25,680 Speaker 3: so this was recently ordered. I believe the case is 425 00:21:25,720 --> 00:21:29,639 Speaker 3: called DBD versus DHS. Was what stopped the Libya situation 426 00:21:29,720 --> 00:21:33,320 Speaker 3: from happening, where yeah, judge said, this is exactly what 427 00:21:33,400 --> 00:21:36,360 Speaker 3: needs to occur. These people need to be given real notice, 428 00:21:36,520 --> 00:21:39,000 Speaker 3: not this whatever has been had, you know, and and 429 00:21:39,080 --> 00:21:40,240 Speaker 3: an opportunity to be heard. 430 00:21:40,720 --> 00:21:43,119 Speaker 2: And then yeah, they immediately. 431 00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:45,560 Speaker 3: Thereafter attempted to as you said, or I think I 432 00:21:45,560 --> 00:21:47,680 Speaker 3: don't know if they actually accomplished it with South Sudan. 433 00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:51,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, my understanding is they are in a country which 434 00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:53,600 Speaker 1: is neither the United States nor South Sudan. On an 435 00:21:53,640 --> 00:21:56,959 Speaker 1: aircraft at this time, and DHS is arguing that they 436 00:21:56,960 --> 00:22:00,760 Speaker 1: can do their credible fear screenings there on the aircraft. 437 00:22:01,280 --> 00:22:04,159 Speaker 1: I don't know how they've planned together people privacy, translation, 438 00:22:04,280 --> 00:22:07,159 Speaker 1: and access to council. I just looked on Court listener 439 00:22:07,240 --> 00:22:11,919 Speaker 1: right before we recorded, and Judge Murphy clarified Massachusetts District 440 00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:14,960 Speaker 1: Court judge that ten days would be the amount of 441 00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:17,240 Speaker 1: time that they would need to assert a credible fear 442 00:22:17,280 --> 00:22:19,560 Speaker 1: and then if DHS determined that they didn't have credible fear, 443 00:22:19,560 --> 00:22:22,840 Speaker 1: they would then have fifteen days to ask the reopening 444 00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:26,439 Speaker 1: of their case. TBD. Is the United States going to 445 00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:30,159 Speaker 1: like somehow accommodate them in where they are. People are 446 00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:33,440 Speaker 1: speculating they're in Djibouti, which is the largest US military 447 00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:35,920 Speaker 1: base in the continent of Africa and close to South Sudan, 448 00:22:36,520 --> 00:22:40,560 Speaker 1: And so if that's the case, Yeah, I don't know 449 00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:43,600 Speaker 1: how they will get due process. We will find out 450 00:22:43,640 --> 00:22:45,000 Speaker 1: if they will get due process. 451 00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:48,120 Speaker 3: I guess yeah, they probably won't, but will be told 452 00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:50,640 Speaker 3: that they did, or will be or will be told 453 00:22:50,640 --> 00:22:52,560 Speaker 3: that they were criminals in the first place, which is 454 00:22:52,600 --> 00:22:56,159 Speaker 3: the other theme of this administration, right with the Alien 455 00:22:56,280 --> 00:22:59,800 Speaker 3: Enemies Act, which has basically been put on pause by 456 00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:04,960 Speaker 3: a number of Satan judges who have said there's no invasion, 457 00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:05,760 Speaker 3: there's no war. 458 00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:08,440 Speaker 2: This is absurd, This just flat out doesn't apply. 459 00:23:09,320 --> 00:23:11,199 Speaker 3: And I have to say that the immigration bar is 460 00:23:11,280 --> 00:23:13,479 Speaker 3: very I think not just the immigration bar, I think 461 00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:15,560 Speaker 3: all of us are very frustrated that the Supreme Court 462 00:23:15,560 --> 00:23:17,760 Speaker 3: has not yet come out with a definitive substance of 463 00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:21,159 Speaker 3: ruling on this because, for the people who don't know, 464 00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:25,520 Speaker 3: the Alien Enemies Act allows the administration to circumvent the 465 00:23:25,560 --> 00:23:30,399 Speaker 3: i NA, which is the whole immigration court system, and 466 00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:34,040 Speaker 3: immediately to port supposed criminals who were invading the country. 467 00:23:34,080 --> 00:23:35,840 Speaker 3: I mean, we all know this with the Venezuelans who 468 00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:38,679 Speaker 3: are accused of being trend Aragua just for having tattoos. 469 00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:42,679 Speaker 3: And so that is to me and I think all 470 00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:45,480 Speaker 3: of us the biggest threat to just be able to 471 00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:47,480 Speaker 3: put somebody on a plane to another country and in 472 00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:49,400 Speaker 3: a prison in another country, as we've seen the sea 473 00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:53,159 Speaker 3: cot in El Salvador. I mean, we need our Supreme 474 00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:55,400 Speaker 3: Court to speak on this, then we need it quickly. 475 00:23:56,040 --> 00:24:00,399 Speaker 1: Yeah, like if we no longer have habeas a frontal 476 00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:02,840 Speaker 1: assault on the Bill of rights like most of them. 477 00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:05,680 Speaker 3: And there's so many assaults on the Bill of Rights, 478 00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:09,439 Speaker 3: and then we need our Supreme Court to really to 479 00:24:09,520 --> 00:24:12,040 Speaker 3: step up. And I think I'm not the only one 480 00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:15,840 Speaker 3: who's extremely frustrated by that, because we're in crisis and 481 00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:18,639 Speaker 3: as we've seen, it's fallen on courts and lawyers and 482 00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:23,399 Speaker 3: judges to try to defend the semblance of democracy in 483 00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:23,960 Speaker 3: this country. 484 00:24:23,960 --> 00:24:26,000 Speaker 2: But the highest court in the land needs to help 485 00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:27,680 Speaker 2: out soon. Yeah. 486 00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:31,879 Speaker 1: Yeah, and like this is where like the rover meets 487 00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:35,760 Speaker 1: the road, right for like maintaining people's basic rights, dignity 488 00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:38,480 Speaker 1: and yeah, the right not to be sent to a 489 00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:42,800 Speaker 1: labor camp in El Salvador or you know, seuth Sudana country, 490 00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:46,320 Speaker 1: which is rapidly descending into conflict. Again, I thought the 491 00:24:46,359 --> 00:24:48,480 Speaker 1: government was barrel bombing this week. 492 00:24:48,760 --> 00:24:50,800 Speaker 3: Well, and just real quick, another note on the Supreme 493 00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:53,159 Speaker 3: Court is that they're they're also concerning I mean, as 494 00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:55,359 Speaker 3: we know, there's a lot of Trump appointees there and 495 00:24:56,359 --> 00:24:59,640 Speaker 3: so I mean it's not even that that's the answer. 496 00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:02,400 Speaker 3: It's just we're you know, but we need answers more 497 00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:05,560 Speaker 3: quickly than what they're they're giving us. And it's just 498 00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:09,520 Speaker 3: when given the rate that this administration is working at 499 00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:12,440 Speaker 3: I don't know that they will if they ever get 500 00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:15,240 Speaker 3: the case or the asylum ban at the border would 501 00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:18,760 Speaker 3: even overturn that because historically they've sort of supported his 502 00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:21,560 Speaker 3: two twelve F powers. So I'm not saying that's the 503 00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:24,159 Speaker 3: answer to everything, but it's definitely frustrating to not have 504 00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:27,440 Speaker 3: basic things yeah already decided, like the use of the 505 00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:28,320 Speaker 3: alien enemies that. 506 00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:30,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, like just not to know where we're at, Like 507 00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:33,399 Speaker 1: when you know people are trying a good faith to 508 00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:36,480 Speaker 1: move forward with the legal processes that they have spent 509 00:25:36,560 --> 00:25:39,600 Speaker 1: their entire life savings on to get here and do 510 00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:54,000 Speaker 1: the right quote unquote the right way. You're still fighting 511 00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:57,400 Speaker 1: a number of asylum cases, as we said before the call, 512 00:25:57,560 --> 00:26:01,119 Speaker 1: like you probably won't be forever, right Like, at some 513 00:26:01,240 --> 00:26:04,120 Speaker 1: point there's just not going to be any more asylum cases. 514 00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:07,639 Speaker 1: I know that you're accepting donations. I think through venmo 515 00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:10,080 Speaker 1: On behalf of Primrose, that will be sure to link 516 00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:12,240 Speaker 1: to that woman account in the description of this show, 517 00:26:12,280 --> 00:26:15,240 Speaker 1: so people can donate if they'd like to. Now it's 518 00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:16,800 Speaker 1: the time to do it, right, It's not like this 519 00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:18,560 Speaker 1: is going to be an ongoing thing. Like if people 520 00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:22,440 Speaker 1: don't help now, then there won't be migrants to support 521 00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:26,280 Speaker 1: or assylies to support later, So like, how can people 522 00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:30,719 Speaker 1: materially support maybe in other ways, right if they're like 523 00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:33,920 Speaker 1: on hard times and have the financial resources, what else 524 00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:36,600 Speaker 1: can people do to just to make this a little 525 00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:40,000 Speaker 1: bit less cruel to some people who are among the 526 00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:41,760 Speaker 1: most unfortunate people on the planet. 527 00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:46,399 Speaker 3: Often, I think even mental and emotional support for the 528 00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:50,240 Speaker 3: immigrants in your life, I think is something that is 529 00:26:50,359 --> 00:26:55,720 Speaker 3: underestimated because speaking as a very privileged white woman attorney 530 00:26:56,000 --> 00:26:59,800 Speaker 3: US citizen, this has taken a tremendous toll on me, 531 00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:03,240 Speaker 3: and the mental toll that has taken on the actual 532 00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:07,359 Speaker 3: undocumented community and a SI les this messaging is so 533 00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:11,320 Speaker 3: harmful and so disgusting that I think I would just 534 00:27:12,119 --> 00:27:15,320 Speaker 3: caution people to not underestimate the power of human kindness 535 00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:19,920 Speaker 3: to those already in your life and just empowering them 536 00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:24,040 Speaker 3: distributing Know your Rights cards and information that still matters. 537 00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:26,840 Speaker 3: But also I think the people who are, as we've 538 00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:30,280 Speaker 3: been discussing, going to be at the most disadvantaged in 539 00:27:30,359 --> 00:27:32,520 Speaker 3: terms of being able to keep up morale are these 540 00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:36,040 Speaker 3: people who are going to be mandatorily detained. So in 541 00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:39,360 Speaker 3: terms of what we were talking about I believe before 542 00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:43,359 Speaker 3: we started recording, reaching out to any organizations I know 543 00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:47,440 Speaker 3: in San Diego there's detention resistance, or even reaching out 544 00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:50,399 Speaker 3: to the detention center that's near you to be able 545 00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:54,159 Speaker 3: to determine how you can send a letter, how you 546 00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:56,560 Speaker 3: can put money on somebody's books so that they can 547 00:27:56,600 --> 00:27:59,240 Speaker 3: have phone calls with their family or phone calls with you. 548 00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:02,359 Speaker 3: Even I think these types of things are are key 549 00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:10,480 Speaker 3: in light of the administration's clear messaging that immigrants are 550 00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:13,920 Speaker 3: very much unwanted and criminals. So I think I think 551 00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:16,520 Speaker 3: that that's where I would come at this from. If 552 00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:19,679 Speaker 3: you cannot donate again, like we were talking, if you 553 00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:22,640 Speaker 3: have a few dollars to spare, I mean, if everybody 554 00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:25,000 Speaker 3: has a few dollars to spare, there is a finite number, 555 00:28:25,040 --> 00:28:27,800 Speaker 3: like we were saying of asylum cases love ye, like 556 00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:31,679 Speaker 3: for roses. So if people can spare a few dollars 557 00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:35,360 Speaker 3: here or there whenever they can, it doesn't make the difference. 558 00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:38,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, no, it does, and it shows that like even 559 00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:40,280 Speaker 1: if the government doesn't want you to hear, a lot 560 00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:42,680 Speaker 1: of people want you to be protected. We want you 561 00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:46,200 Speaker 1: to be safe, Like, yeah, the mental damage it does, 562 00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:48,800 Speaker 1: I think it's hard to overstate. Like I was talking, 563 00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:52,200 Speaker 1: I remember to a young woman Ino and like she 564 00:28:52,360 --> 00:28:54,520 Speaker 1: was the only surviving member of her pamently the government 565 00:28:54,560 --> 00:28:58,520 Speaker 1: had killed everyone, and so she came to the US 566 00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:00,600 Speaker 1: right to be safe, and like, now the government is 567 00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:03,480 Speaker 1: coming after her in addition to the trauma she already 568 00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:06,840 Speaker 1: has from watching her entire family die. Like, now the 569 00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:09,160 Speaker 1: most powerful government in the world is coming after you. 570 00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:11,640 Speaker 1: I can't imagine how that feels. 571 00:29:12,040 --> 00:29:13,080 Speaker 2: That's a very good point. 572 00:29:13,160 --> 00:29:16,880 Speaker 3: I mean, yeah, people are coming already traumatized, only to 573 00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:20,560 Speaker 3: be further traumatized by this administration in the system. And yes, 574 00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:23,520 Speaker 3: I mean emotional and mental and any kind of support 575 00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:26,719 Speaker 3: is not to be underestimated in the slightest during these times. 576 00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:29,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, like have people over for dinner if you can, 577 00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:31,200 Speaker 1: or yeah, like call the detention center and put money 578 00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:36,240 Speaker 1: on someone's commisary. Like just showing people that they're welcome 579 00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:40,840 Speaker 1: is important. Like I know a lot of the migrants, 580 00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:42,400 Speaker 1: Like if I look at my phone right now, in 581 00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:45,000 Speaker 1: the time we've been recording, one of the migrants I 582 00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:46,880 Speaker 1: met that Darien Gat will probably have texted me. They're 583 00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:48,880 Speaker 1: in Mexico right, and they just want the world to 584 00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:50,960 Speaker 1: know about the situation, they know they can't come to 585 00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:53,800 Speaker 1: the US anymore. But sometimes people will say, I guess 586 00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:56,160 Speaker 1: the Americans don't want s anymore, And like that breaks 587 00:29:56,160 --> 00:29:58,160 Speaker 1: my heart because I think most people, if they knew 588 00:29:58,160 --> 00:30:01,120 Speaker 1: these people circumstances right to people have reached out to 589 00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:03,440 Speaker 1: me since the Darien Gap stuff to ask how they 590 00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:07,440 Speaker 1: can help, and like, most people do want those people 591 00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:10,320 Speaker 1: to be their neighbors. And it breaks my heart that 592 00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:12,080 Speaker 1: they think that we don't want them, that we would 593 00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:15,920 Speaker 1: rather leave them to die wherever they're at. Like it's 594 00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:19,520 Speaker 1: genuinely really horrible for me to think of that. So yeah, 595 00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:23,080 Speaker 1: I would really encourage anyone listening if you can, to 596 00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:23,920 Speaker 1: do what you. 597 00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:29,440 Speaker 3: Can absolutely in just remembering that again, these asylum cases 598 00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:32,080 Speaker 3: are finite. So if you know any asylum seeker or 599 00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:35,600 Speaker 3: can support any asylum seeker right now, they made it 600 00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:37,120 Speaker 3: in Let's give them their best shot. 601 00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:40,200 Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah, like we can still help those people, 602 00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:43,840 Speaker 1: and while we can, we should absolutely Yeah, Well, thank 603 00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:45,760 Speaker 1: you so much for joining us. We do appreciate it. 604 00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:48,640 Speaker 1: I know that your time is very valuable and you're 605 00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:51,480 Speaker 1: really busy right now, so we really appreciate your time. 606 00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:54,760 Speaker 1: You're always welcome back, and if there's anything else you'd 607 00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:56,200 Speaker 1: like to say before we finish up. 608 00:30:56,720 --> 00:30:57,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you, James. 609 00:30:57,640 --> 00:30:59,600 Speaker 3: I think the only thing I just want to emphasize 610 00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:02,760 Speaker 3: is that, you know, from the standpoint of immigration attorneys 611 00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:05,840 Speaker 3: like I feel that we're obviously a subject of an 612 00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:08,360 Speaker 3: executive order, and you know, big law firms are being 613 00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:12,160 Speaker 3: extorted by the administration to represent causes that the administration 614 00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:14,920 Speaker 3: believes in and not robono immigration work and so forth 615 00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:17,200 Speaker 3: and so on. So it's not like too many of 616 00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:20,680 Speaker 3: us have been personally attacked, although you know, judges have 617 00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:24,160 Speaker 3: been arrested, even judges for just hiring an immigrant to 618 00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:27,360 Speaker 3: do work around the house. So it is a scary 619 00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:31,000 Speaker 3: time to be practicing immigration law. But unfortunately, I do 620 00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:34,320 Speaker 3: see there being a time when it won't happen. I mean, 621 00:31:34,360 --> 00:31:36,040 Speaker 3: I see the writing on the wall where I will 622 00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:40,240 Speaker 3: not be able to continue mentally and or economically, because 623 00:31:40,560 --> 00:31:42,719 Speaker 3: a side effect of all this, and a very intentional 624 00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:44,960 Speaker 3: side effect, is to make it so that we can't 625 00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:48,280 Speaker 3: do much for people anymore, and or they can afford us, 626 00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:51,560 Speaker 3: or there's not people here to do anything for because 627 00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:55,080 Speaker 3: their spirit was broken or their finances or all of 628 00:31:55,080 --> 00:31:57,880 Speaker 3: the above and they had to leave. So it is 629 00:31:57,920 --> 00:32:01,360 Speaker 3: a very intense time. But I came from different areas 630 00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:04,520 Speaker 3: of life. I've only been in immigration seven years and 631 00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:07,360 Speaker 3: it's the first time I've thought of, Okay, where am 632 00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:10,640 Speaker 3: I going to go to next in these seven years, 633 00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:14,280 Speaker 3: And it's a very real thing. So, like I said, 634 00:32:14,320 --> 00:32:16,160 Speaker 3: it feels very different than Trump one point zero. 635 00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:20,320 Speaker 1: So no, yeah, this is considerably more severe. 636 00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:22,680 Speaker 3: So in other words, take care of yourself if you 637 00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:25,280 Speaker 3: are an ally, because you know the attack is on 638 00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:29,320 Speaker 3: immigrants and anybody who advocates, supports and so forth, and 639 00:32:29,360 --> 00:32:33,480 Speaker 3: it's a very targeted, direct attack and it's very easy 640 00:32:33,480 --> 00:32:36,560 Speaker 3: to get run down and consumed by it. And so 641 00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:38,760 Speaker 3: definitely do what you need to do to take care 642 00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:41,240 Speaker 3: of yourself. And if that means stepping back, then you know, 643 00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:43,520 Speaker 3: I mean, I want to keep my foot in the 644 00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:45,400 Speaker 3: door as much as possible these next four years on 645 00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:49,640 Speaker 3: something immigration and recite asylum related. But there's also economic 646 00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:52,960 Speaker 3: and other realities that are happening intentionally, So. 647 00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:55,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely, and I think it is important for people 648 00:32:55,760 --> 00:32:58,120 Speaker 1: to do whatever they need to do to self preserve 649 00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:01,400 Speaker 1: and take care of themselves as well. I think that's 650 00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:03,160 Speaker 1: a good place to end, thank you so much for 651 00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:06,160 Speaker 1: your time, and again, like if you're listening, please check 652 00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:08,120 Speaker 1: the description of the show and we will have a 653 00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:10,400 Speaker 1: link to primises go fund Me if you'd like to help. 654 00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:17,520 Speaker 2: Thank you so much, James, thank you. It Could Happen 655 00:33:17,560 --> 00:33:19,400 Speaker 2: Here is a production of cool Zone Media. 656 00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:22,600 Speaker 3: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 657 00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:26,320 Speaker 3: coolzonmedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, 658 00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:29,920 Speaker 3: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can 659 00:33:29,960 --> 00:33:32,320 Speaker 3: now find sources for It Could Happen Here listened directly 660 00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:33,480 Speaker 3: in episode descriptions. 661 00:33:33,800 --> 00:33:34,640 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening.