1 00:00:13,840 --> 00:00:17,960 Speaker 1: Welcome to tex Stuff. I'm as Volocian here with Cara Prices. 2 00:00:18,320 --> 00:00:21,439 Speaker 2: Has social media ever made you feel superstitious or paranoid? 3 00:00:21,640 --> 00:00:21,840 Speaker 3: Yeah? 4 00:00:21,840 --> 00:00:24,160 Speaker 1: I mean I've dipped my toe into the world of 5 00:00:24,400 --> 00:00:28,760 Speaker 1: social media Instagram. I'm getting push notifications about being bold 6 00:00:28,840 --> 00:00:32,960 Speaker 1: and about being depressed. I know I'm bold, am I 7 00:00:33,000 --> 00:00:36,879 Speaker 1: depressed too? That makes me feel a bit paranoid that 8 00:00:36,920 --> 00:00:39,159 Speaker 1: the algorithm may know more about me than I know 9 00:00:39,159 --> 00:00:39,800 Speaker 1: about myself. 10 00:00:39,920 --> 00:00:42,839 Speaker 2: I similarly get fed things that I've searched for that 11 00:00:42,880 --> 00:00:47,520 Speaker 2: I don't want to know about myself. Why do you ask, Well, 12 00:00:47,920 --> 00:00:51,160 Speaker 2: I feel like this is kind of a universal state. 13 00:00:51,240 --> 00:00:54,200 Speaker 2: This tech induce paranoia, like most people can relate to it. 14 00:00:54,240 --> 00:00:55,840 Speaker 4: Nobody would be like, yeah, you know, I just think 15 00:00:55,960 --> 00:00:58,240 Speaker 4: social media is just such a fun, clear place to 16 00:00:58,760 --> 00:01:01,960 Speaker 4: rest my head. And I actually spoke about this feeling 17 00:01:02,000 --> 00:01:04,560 Speaker 4: with Amanda Hess, who is a writer at large for 18 00:01:04,600 --> 00:01:07,240 Speaker 4: The New York Times covering technology and internet culture. 19 00:01:07,319 --> 00:01:09,800 Speaker 1: She actually she wrote a fascinating column in the last 20 00:01:09,800 --> 00:01:13,800 Speaker 1: couple of weeks actually about somebody who live streamed their 21 00:01:13,840 --> 00:01:16,560 Speaker 1: birth on Twitch. So I'm very interested in her in 22 00:01:16,600 --> 00:01:18,680 Speaker 1: her take in general. In the story, she finds. 23 00:01:18,520 --> 00:01:22,480 Speaker 2: She's super smart, and I would definitely check out her 24 00:01:22,480 --> 00:01:24,680 Speaker 2: book if you haven't checked it out. It's called Second Life, 25 00:01:24,880 --> 00:01:28,199 Speaker 2: Having a Child in the Digital Age. And she said 26 00:01:28,240 --> 00:01:32,040 Speaker 2: that even though she's normally really rational, getting pregnant changed 27 00:01:32,040 --> 00:01:35,959 Speaker 2: her relationship to technology and kind of fed into a 28 00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:39,640 Speaker 2: lot of superstitious feelings that I think most women feel 29 00:01:39,640 --> 00:01:40,399 Speaker 2: went pregnant. 30 00:01:40,760 --> 00:01:47,559 Speaker 3: Pregnancy is such a time of imagination and conjecture, and 31 00:01:48,640 --> 00:01:51,680 Speaker 3: I had never been pregnant before. I didn't have many 32 00:01:51,680 --> 00:01:54,360 Speaker 3: close friends who had undergone pregnancy, and so I was 33 00:01:54,400 --> 00:01:58,280 Speaker 3: just turning to the Internet for everything, Like I ate 34 00:01:58,320 --> 00:02:04,440 Speaker 3: a piece of turkey that tasted bad, Like what's going 35 00:02:04,440 --> 00:02:06,960 Speaker 3: to happen? Like do I need to make myself throw up? 36 00:02:07,000 --> 00:02:08,560 Speaker 3: Do I need to go to the hospital? I was 37 00:02:08,600 --> 00:02:10,720 Speaker 3: like constantly googling stuff like that. 38 00:02:11,560 --> 00:02:14,440 Speaker 2: And Amanda's superstitions were complicated by the fact that her 39 00:02:14,480 --> 00:02:16,440 Speaker 2: pregnancy actually became complex. 40 00:02:17,120 --> 00:02:20,160 Speaker 3: When I was about seven months pregnant, I had a 41 00:02:20,320 --> 00:02:24,840 Speaker 3: routine ultrasound where my doctor, as he put it, saw 42 00:02:24,880 --> 00:02:29,360 Speaker 3: something he didn't like, and at first my doctors didn't 43 00:02:29,400 --> 00:02:32,519 Speaker 3: know what it was, but he suggested that he thought 44 00:02:32,560 --> 00:02:36,400 Speaker 3: it might be a genetic syndrome called beck with Weedaman syndrome, 45 00:02:36,760 --> 00:02:41,320 Speaker 3: which to me was like a jumble of nonsense sounds when. 46 00:02:41,360 --> 00:02:46,680 Speaker 1: He said that, well, that's the doctor meeting that nobody 47 00:02:46,680 --> 00:02:50,720 Speaker 1: wants to have. And also how brave of Amanda to 48 00:02:51,080 --> 00:02:53,320 Speaker 1: write about this and share it on the podcast. But 49 00:02:53,880 --> 00:02:55,960 Speaker 1: what is beck with Weedaman syndrome? 50 00:02:56,200 --> 00:02:58,720 Speaker 2: So Amanda said that b to BUS is a genetic 51 00:02:58,800 --> 00:03:02,320 Speaker 2: disorder where hearts of your body grow faster or bigger 52 00:03:02,360 --> 00:03:05,640 Speaker 2: than is typical. It's very rare, and it actually took 53 00:03:05,919 --> 00:03:08,079 Speaker 2: a month for her doctor to confirm that her son 54 00:03:08,200 --> 00:03:11,680 Speaker 2: did in fact have b TOWS and during that time, 55 00:03:11,960 --> 00:03:14,959 Speaker 2: like you can imagine all the googling she was doing. 56 00:03:15,639 --> 00:03:18,480 Speaker 2: And that's where I wanted to start my conversation with Amanda, 57 00:03:18,520 --> 00:03:22,360 Speaker 2: reflecting on that moment of uncertainty right after her son's diagnosis. 58 00:03:22,960 --> 00:03:25,400 Speaker 3: Even before my pregnancy was complex, it was like a 59 00:03:25,480 --> 00:03:29,600 Speaker 3: very trying experience for me. You have to like sacrifice 60 00:03:29,639 --> 00:03:32,720 Speaker 3: a lot and endure a lot during pregnancy, and I 61 00:03:32,760 --> 00:03:34,200 Speaker 3: found myself thinking. 62 00:03:33,880 --> 00:03:36,840 Speaker 5: About what my child was going to be like. And so. 63 00:03:38,520 --> 00:03:41,680 Speaker 3: When I got this possible diagnosis for my son, I 64 00:03:41,680 --> 00:03:44,880 Speaker 3: immediately googled it as well, and I found that like 65 00:03:47,320 --> 00:03:51,600 Speaker 3: the prospect of my son having a genetic condition potentially 66 00:03:51,640 --> 00:03:55,760 Speaker 3: having like a catastrophic complication where I needed to make 67 00:03:55,880 --> 00:03:58,880 Speaker 3: decisions about my pregnancy and I needed to start to 68 00:03:59,080 --> 00:04:03,840 Speaker 3: imagine him differently, imagine myself differently, imagine my role as 69 00:04:03,880 --> 00:04:04,680 Speaker 3: a parent differently. 70 00:04:05,480 --> 00:04:06,080 Speaker 2: It so. 71 00:04:07,760 --> 00:04:11,280 Speaker 3: Limited my imagination around what my son was going to 72 00:04:11,320 --> 00:04:13,360 Speaker 3: be like and what our life was going to be like. 73 00:04:14,200 --> 00:04:16,000 Speaker 3: And the first way I did that was just like 74 00:04:16,120 --> 00:04:20,760 Speaker 3: showing me pictures of kids who have BWS. When you 75 00:04:20,800 --> 00:04:23,839 Speaker 3: meet them in person, they're like human beings and their 76 00:04:23,920 --> 00:04:24,320 Speaker 3: kids and. 77 00:04:24,279 --> 00:04:25,559 Speaker 5: They're beautiful and really cute. 78 00:04:26,200 --> 00:04:29,599 Speaker 3: And when you meet them online, it's like pictures that 79 00:04:29,640 --> 00:04:33,880 Speaker 3: have been taken from medical journals. So the kid is 80 00:04:33,920 --> 00:04:37,880 Speaker 3: sort of like in this like very medicalized environment, hooked 81 00:04:37,920 --> 00:04:40,760 Speaker 3: up to like wires and stuff. My son was born 82 00:04:40,800 --> 00:04:42,520 Speaker 3: with a very large tongue, so you would see kids 83 00:04:42,560 --> 00:04:44,440 Speaker 3: with their tongue just like stuck out as far as 84 00:04:44,440 --> 00:04:46,320 Speaker 3: they could make it stick out for the doctor to 85 00:04:46,320 --> 00:04:48,000 Speaker 3: take a photo, like their. 86 00:04:47,839 --> 00:04:48,920 Speaker 5: Eyes blacked out. 87 00:04:50,080 --> 00:04:54,520 Speaker 3: And then photos from tabloid reporting. I found a lot 88 00:04:54,520 --> 00:04:57,359 Speaker 3: of photos from the Daily Mail, and so I was 89 00:04:57,400 --> 00:05:01,120 Speaker 3: like absorbing all of this new like imagine nation fodder 90 00:05:01,440 --> 00:05:04,359 Speaker 3: from the Internet that was from the medical world. Or 91 00:05:04,400 --> 00:05:07,520 Speaker 3: it was from the tabloid world, or it was from Reddit, 92 00:05:07,720 --> 00:05:14,400 Speaker 3: where they were just like teenagers speculating about bws and 93 00:05:14,640 --> 00:05:17,640 Speaker 3: like seeing pictures of babies with bws and giving their 94 00:05:17,680 --> 00:05:21,200 Speaker 3: thoughts about whether they thought they should be born. And 95 00:05:21,440 --> 00:05:24,800 Speaker 3: it was only like after my son was born and 96 00:05:25,080 --> 00:05:28,080 Speaker 3: I met him as like a person, as opposed to 97 00:05:28,120 --> 00:05:31,200 Speaker 3: this idea that was inside of me, that I realized 98 00:05:31,279 --> 00:05:33,440 Speaker 3: I had just like bathed my brain and all of 99 00:05:33,480 --> 00:05:38,240 Speaker 3: these distortions and lies about what he would be like 100 00:05:38,400 --> 00:05:40,200 Speaker 3: and what our life would be like. And that was 101 00:05:40,240 --> 00:05:44,880 Speaker 3: really when I started to think about just how influential 102 00:05:45,600 --> 00:05:48,960 Speaker 3: and damaging that experience. 103 00:05:48,440 --> 00:05:49,200 Speaker 5: Had been for me. 104 00:05:49,640 --> 00:05:52,400 Speaker 2: You know, it's almost like the Internet immediately turns into 105 00:05:52,400 --> 00:05:55,520 Speaker 2: a Ripley's believe it or not when you go looking 106 00:05:55,520 --> 00:06:00,719 Speaker 2: for something, and it's never the sort of tempered, middle 107 00:06:00,760 --> 00:06:02,960 Speaker 2: of the road version of the thing that you're looking for. 108 00:06:03,640 --> 00:06:05,520 Speaker 3: And I think, you know, like the first time I 109 00:06:05,680 --> 00:06:08,599 Speaker 3: googled bws and I found an article in the Daily Mail, 110 00:06:09,720 --> 00:06:12,760 Speaker 3: I was like, well, my child is going to have 111 00:06:12,839 --> 00:06:17,760 Speaker 3: something so rare and alarming to other people that you 112 00:06:17,839 --> 00:06:21,800 Speaker 3: could write a newspaper article about it, And that I 113 00:06:21,880 --> 00:06:24,320 Speaker 3: think really affected how I started to think about it. 114 00:06:24,920 --> 00:06:27,479 Speaker 3: But then I realized later as I was like fact 115 00:06:27,560 --> 00:06:30,039 Speaker 3: checking and researching the book, that they do like publish 116 00:06:30,080 --> 00:06:32,040 Speaker 3: this article like every year about a different kid who 117 00:06:32,040 --> 00:06:34,160 Speaker 3: has BWS. So once you see all of them, there's 118 00:06:34,200 --> 00:06:36,320 Speaker 3: like fifteen or twenty articles, and you're like, oh, well, 119 00:06:36,360 --> 00:06:39,200 Speaker 3: it's actually, in fact, there are so many children in 120 00:06:39,200 --> 00:06:43,800 Speaker 3: the world that it's not quite so odd. And once 121 00:06:43,839 --> 00:06:46,680 Speaker 3: I got an actual diagnosis for my son before he 122 00:06:46,760 --> 00:06:50,839 Speaker 3: was born, I was able to join like Facebook groups 123 00:06:50,880 --> 00:06:54,600 Speaker 3: for people who have BWS and their families, and there 124 00:06:54,600 --> 00:06:57,719 Speaker 3: are like thousands of people in these groups, and so 125 00:06:59,120 --> 00:07:01,839 Speaker 3: eventually I was able to navigate to a part of 126 00:07:01,839 --> 00:07:07,159 Speaker 3: the internet that was comforting and helpful and helped me 127 00:07:07,240 --> 00:07:08,800 Speaker 3: realize there are many children. 128 00:07:08,600 --> 00:07:11,920 Speaker 5: Like my son. I was not alone. There's so much 129 00:07:11,920 --> 00:07:15,160 Speaker 5: support there, and. 130 00:07:14,920 --> 00:07:18,400 Speaker 3: There's such a diversity of people who are in these groups, 131 00:07:19,120 --> 00:07:22,360 Speaker 3: which made me feel like it alleviated some of the 132 00:07:22,400 --> 00:07:26,400 Speaker 3: guilt I had about feeling like I had done something 133 00:07:26,520 --> 00:07:29,920 Speaker 3: by not eating the right leafy green, or by drinking 134 00:07:29,920 --> 00:07:32,120 Speaker 3: a glass of wine, or by having a tablet of 135 00:07:32,240 --> 00:07:35,760 Speaker 3: an anti anxiety medication, that I had caused this somehow 136 00:07:35,840 --> 00:07:38,600 Speaker 3: by just the kind of person I am, but at 137 00:07:38,640 --> 00:07:41,840 Speaker 3: first it was a really horrifying experience to google it. 138 00:07:42,480 --> 00:07:45,360 Speaker 2: But it is interesting that the thing that could make 139 00:07:45,400 --> 00:07:47,600 Speaker 2: you so miserable is also the thing that provided you 140 00:07:47,640 --> 00:07:50,119 Speaker 2: a safe harbor. Social media has that sort of double 141 00:07:50,240 --> 00:07:51,160 Speaker 2: edged nature. 142 00:07:52,000 --> 00:07:55,160 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I think if you're someone who's dealing 143 00:07:55,160 --> 00:07:58,760 Speaker 3: with something that is rare, or at least like feels 144 00:07:58,840 --> 00:08:02,360 Speaker 3: rare in your community, the internet can be such a lifeline. 145 00:08:02,400 --> 00:08:06,320 Speaker 3: But it's also most helpful as something that is like 146 00:08:06,360 --> 00:08:10,240 Speaker 3: a supplement to my real human life. And when I 147 00:08:10,280 --> 00:08:14,720 Speaker 3: was pregnant, my son didn't present as a human yet. 148 00:08:15,080 --> 00:08:17,680 Speaker 3: It was as if I was experiencing him only through 149 00:08:17,680 --> 00:08:20,800 Speaker 3: the Internet, which is a terrifying way to experience another person, 150 00:08:21,560 --> 00:08:24,200 Speaker 3: especially someone who's going to be like so important to 151 00:08:24,240 --> 00:08:27,440 Speaker 3: you and who you are, You're the most important person 152 00:08:27,480 --> 00:08:30,520 Speaker 3: to them when they're born. And so I ultimately felt 153 00:08:30,520 --> 00:08:36,800 Speaker 3: like sad that my first encounter or like perceived encounter 154 00:08:36,960 --> 00:08:41,560 Speaker 3: with him was this of like fear and judgment, and 155 00:08:41,600 --> 00:08:43,679 Speaker 3: so it took me a while to sort of like 156 00:08:43,840 --> 00:08:46,800 Speaker 3: untangle myself from those feelings. 157 00:08:47,360 --> 00:08:49,320 Speaker 2: What are some of the other ways that you felt 158 00:08:49,520 --> 00:08:53,760 Speaker 2: pregnancy technology was priming you to see surveillance as something normal, 159 00:08:54,520 --> 00:08:58,480 Speaker 2: and what do you think are the consequences of that? 160 00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:04,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I think The first real pregnancy tech 161 00:09:04,120 --> 00:09:08,880 Speaker 3: that I was spending time with was Flow, my period tracker, 162 00:09:09,440 --> 00:09:11,319 Speaker 3: which when I was using it as a. 163 00:09:11,240 --> 00:09:14,400 Speaker 5: Period tracker, I loved it. 164 00:09:14,400 --> 00:09:16,920 Speaker 3: It was such a great app I'm just such a 165 00:09:17,000 --> 00:09:20,200 Speaker 3: forgetful person that, like I would just have no idea 166 00:09:20,280 --> 00:09:23,840 Speaker 3: when my period was coming, and so having this alert 167 00:09:23,880 --> 00:09:25,760 Speaker 3: in my phone that was like just so you know, 168 00:09:26,640 --> 00:09:30,480 Speaker 3: if you feel uncomfortable and sad and angry in the 169 00:09:30,520 --> 00:09:33,440 Speaker 3: next day, maybe it's because of this. But then as 170 00:09:33,480 --> 00:09:36,320 Speaker 3: I started to think about getting pregnant, I realized that 171 00:09:36,360 --> 00:09:39,440 Speaker 3: it was also telling me when it thought that I 172 00:09:39,640 --> 00:09:43,240 Speaker 3: was at my most fertile, and so it became this 173 00:09:43,360 --> 00:09:48,000 Speaker 3: kind of like biological clock very quickly for me, something 174 00:09:48,040 --> 00:09:51,760 Speaker 3: that I have always thought of as like this sexist 175 00:09:51,840 --> 00:09:55,400 Speaker 3: and corny idea that there's like this ticking clock in 176 00:09:55,480 --> 00:09:58,760 Speaker 3: the back of women's minds, but it really it made 177 00:09:58,800 --> 00:10:01,200 Speaker 3: it real for me. It's like here, it is in 178 00:10:01,240 --> 00:10:05,000 Speaker 3: your hand. And then I used it to get pregnant, 179 00:10:05,400 --> 00:10:07,199 Speaker 3: and I was like very lucky and that I got 180 00:10:07,200 --> 00:10:10,439 Speaker 3: pregnant immediately, So I was like, wow, I think really works. 181 00:10:10,760 --> 00:10:12,880 Speaker 3: You know, I've been avoiding pregnancy all my life, and 182 00:10:13,040 --> 00:10:15,600 Speaker 3: I tried a couple of times and the app told 183 00:10:15,600 --> 00:10:16,240 Speaker 3: me like just what. 184 00:10:16,240 --> 00:10:17,200 Speaker 5: To do and it was right. 185 00:10:18,240 --> 00:10:21,200 Speaker 3: So I think at that point I had conferred this 186 00:10:21,400 --> 00:10:24,840 Speaker 3: power onto the app that maybe I wasn't realizing. And 187 00:10:24,880 --> 00:10:27,360 Speaker 3: then when I was pregnant, I realized that this app 188 00:10:27,360 --> 00:10:29,440 Speaker 3: that I had been using once a month, I was 189 00:10:29,520 --> 00:10:34,439 Speaker 3: now opening ten times a day. And it wasn't because 190 00:10:34,640 --> 00:10:39,560 Speaker 3: there was any new information in there necessarily, it was 191 00:10:39,600 --> 00:10:43,680 Speaker 3: because my mind had started to associate it with my 192 00:10:44,400 --> 00:10:47,600 Speaker 3: future baby, and so I was like thinking about that 193 00:10:47,679 --> 00:10:50,920 Speaker 3: all the time. I wasn't telling all of my family 194 00:10:50,920 --> 00:10:54,120 Speaker 3: members or friends or colleagues about it yet because it 195 00:10:54,160 --> 00:10:58,000 Speaker 3: was so early, And so it became this like outlet 196 00:10:58,280 --> 00:11:02,880 Speaker 3: for me to have this perosocial relationship with a fetus. 197 00:11:03,160 --> 00:11:08,280 Speaker 3: And it showed me this like floating peachy cgi representation 198 00:11:08,679 --> 00:11:13,160 Speaker 3: of what the baby looked like at that particular time. 199 00:11:14,000 --> 00:11:17,680 Speaker 3: And it was also like anthropomorphizing the embryo and the 200 00:11:17,679 --> 00:11:20,960 Speaker 3: fetus in this way that's like, this is how many 201 00:11:21,080 --> 00:11:26,560 Speaker 3: brain neurons or whatever your baby is accumulating by the hour, 202 00:11:26,679 --> 00:11:29,679 Speaker 3: Like it's getting so smart. Your baby's getting so smart 203 00:11:29,720 --> 00:11:33,120 Speaker 3: and it was like nine weeks gestation or whatever. 204 00:11:33,920 --> 00:11:38,000 Speaker 2: Did you feel as though you were interfacing with a 205 00:11:38,080 --> 00:11:41,640 Speaker 2: medical product when you were using Flow or were you 206 00:11:41,720 --> 00:11:44,800 Speaker 2: aware of the fact that it was basically a way 207 00:11:44,800 --> 00:11:46,760 Speaker 2: to capture your data and keep you on an app. 208 00:11:47,480 --> 00:11:49,120 Speaker 3: I mean, I don't think I thought of it as 209 00:11:49,360 --> 00:11:51,800 Speaker 3: either of those. I think if you had asked me, 210 00:11:52,679 --> 00:11:55,800 Speaker 3: journalist me, what are you doing, I would have said, Oh, 211 00:11:56,080 --> 00:11:58,200 Speaker 3: I'm interfacing with this app that is taking all of 212 00:11:58,200 --> 00:12:00,800 Speaker 3: this personal data from me and is kat asking me 213 00:12:00,920 --> 00:12:04,160 Speaker 3: to like upgrade the service or whatever like every day. 214 00:12:04,960 --> 00:12:09,560 Speaker 5: But if you ask the me that exists beneath. 215 00:12:09,840 --> 00:12:13,920 Speaker 3: Rational me, the feeling me, it would have been like, oh, 216 00:12:14,000 --> 00:12:16,120 Speaker 3: this is the time that I'm spending with my baby. 217 00:12:17,200 --> 00:12:20,880 Speaker 3: I'm like opening it, seeing what it looks like, looking 218 00:12:20,960 --> 00:12:24,240 Speaker 3: as it transforms. But I think what I didn't realize 219 00:12:24,280 --> 00:12:28,960 Speaker 3: at first was I was absorbing what the app thought 220 00:12:29,559 --> 00:12:35,160 Speaker 3: was normal, what a normal mother does, what a normal 221 00:12:35,200 --> 00:12:39,040 Speaker 3: baby looks like. And at a certain point, once the 222 00:12:39,080 --> 00:12:43,800 Speaker 3: fetus gets aged enough, it has a face and it's 223 00:12:43,840 --> 00:12:47,000 Speaker 3: always kind of like peacefully smiling in there. And it 224 00:12:47,040 --> 00:12:51,160 Speaker 3: wasn't until I had this abnormal ultrasound that was the 225 00:12:51,160 --> 00:12:53,920 Speaker 3: first time really that I realized on an emotional level 226 00:12:54,040 --> 00:12:56,880 Speaker 3: that the picture in flow was not a picture of 227 00:12:56,880 --> 00:12:59,800 Speaker 3: my baby, and it was not actually a representation of 228 00:12:59,800 --> 00:13:01,320 Speaker 3: what my baby's face looked like. 229 00:13:02,000 --> 00:13:05,280 Speaker 5: And that made me feel betrayed. 230 00:13:06,440 --> 00:13:09,160 Speaker 3: Which sounds nuts, But I had spent the first part 231 00:13:09,160 --> 00:13:12,160 Speaker 3: of my pregnancy relating to this thing, and now I 232 00:13:12,200 --> 00:13:15,400 Speaker 3: realized that it's not really showing me anything, So I 233 00:13:15,400 --> 00:13:16,199 Speaker 3: don't know anything. 234 00:13:17,080 --> 00:13:18,760 Speaker 2: Part of what I think you're talking about is this 235 00:13:18,920 --> 00:13:22,880 Speaker 2: instinct that we have to like offload our meaning making 236 00:13:22,920 --> 00:13:25,520 Speaker 2: onto apps, right that, like, I'm going to make meaning 237 00:13:25,559 --> 00:13:28,840 Speaker 2: of my life by creating data of myself. 238 00:13:29,559 --> 00:13:33,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I think for me, I don't know 239 00:13:33,240 --> 00:13:34,920 Speaker 3: that the app was helping me, but it got me 240 00:13:35,080 --> 00:13:40,439 Speaker 3: used to this idea of like tracking myself and my baby, 241 00:13:40,480 --> 00:13:43,720 Speaker 3: even though there was no like achievement that I really 242 00:13:43,720 --> 00:13:46,640 Speaker 3: needed to make. But there a bunch of pregnancy apps 243 00:13:46,640 --> 00:13:50,680 Speaker 3: like create things that they hope that you achieve, like 244 00:13:50,800 --> 00:13:54,640 Speaker 3: that you'll be doing pelvic floor exercises every day, or 245 00:13:54,679 --> 00:13:57,240 Speaker 3: that you'll get your like thirty minutes of exercise, and 246 00:13:57,320 --> 00:13:58,559 Speaker 3: like yoga doesn't count. 247 00:13:58,720 --> 00:13:59,000 Speaker 5: For me. 248 00:13:59,080 --> 00:14:02,079 Speaker 3: It was more just like this drum beat of getting 249 00:14:02,120 --> 00:14:06,600 Speaker 3: the information and giving the information back. That felt like 250 00:14:06,800 --> 00:14:10,280 Speaker 3: something I was compelled to do. You know, women are 251 00:14:10,480 --> 00:14:14,040 Speaker 3: used to that, just the sense of being surveilled by 252 00:14:14,600 --> 00:14:18,040 Speaker 3: who knows what and participating in it. But I think 253 00:14:18,080 --> 00:14:23,800 Speaker 3: this specifically trains parents to start being the surveilling force 254 00:14:23,840 --> 00:14:29,560 Speaker 3: of their kid, and once their baby is born, to 255 00:14:29,640 --> 00:14:33,360 Speaker 3: consider all of these products that tell you if your 256 00:14:33,400 --> 00:14:37,240 Speaker 3: baby is sleeping normally, if your baby is developing normally, 257 00:14:37,360 --> 00:14:41,200 Speaker 3: if they're growing normally, or whatever, when it's just not 258 00:14:41,640 --> 00:14:45,640 Speaker 3: necessary in most cases. And also this idea of normalcy, 259 00:14:45,960 --> 00:14:50,960 Speaker 3: it's not a real thing. There's no real normal, average person. 260 00:14:51,160 --> 00:14:53,920 Speaker 3: That's like an idea that we have. But for me, 261 00:14:54,080 --> 00:14:56,920 Speaker 3: as the parent of a kid who ended up having 262 00:14:57,400 --> 00:15:02,320 Speaker 3: a disability, I think it can be destructive because there's 263 00:15:02,320 --> 00:15:05,280 Speaker 3: a suggestion beneath all of it that what we really 264 00:15:05,480 --> 00:15:08,720 Speaker 3: all want is like a normal kid. And I found later, 265 00:15:08,880 --> 00:15:10,880 Speaker 3: like after my kid was born, that wasn't really what 266 00:15:10,920 --> 00:15:13,480 Speaker 3: I wanted, but it's what I felt that I wanted. 267 00:15:14,120 --> 00:15:17,080 Speaker 2: A long time ago, I reported on a story about 268 00:15:17,200 --> 00:15:21,520 Speaker 2: this woman called Gillian Bruckell who was served adoption ads 269 00:15:21,600 --> 00:15:24,920 Speaker 2: after her still birth, and one of the kind of 270 00:15:24,920 --> 00:15:28,880 Speaker 2: conclusions that she came to was the idea that, like Facebook, 271 00:15:28,920 --> 00:15:36,560 Speaker 2: ads were not programmed to understand any alternative for a childbirth. 272 00:15:36,600 --> 00:15:39,760 Speaker 2: You know, there are no variables that are engineered into 273 00:15:40,520 --> 00:15:43,920 Speaker 2: the way we are marketed to as expected mothers. 274 00:15:44,160 --> 00:15:46,680 Speaker 3: I'm always, I feel like in my work, like struggling 275 00:15:46,760 --> 00:15:50,280 Speaker 3: to understand whether technology if it knows so much about us, 276 00:15:50,360 --> 00:15:53,160 Speaker 3: or if it really knows nothing. It's just so easy 277 00:15:53,320 --> 00:15:58,000 Speaker 3: to like project ourselves onto this stuff. But I yeah, 278 00:15:58,040 --> 00:16:00,480 Speaker 3: I found with Flow it made a lot of ass 279 00:16:00,520 --> 00:16:05,680 Speaker 3: about how a person felt about their pregnancy, whether it 280 00:16:05,720 --> 00:16:08,480 Speaker 3: was something that they wanted to continue or not. There 281 00:16:08,520 --> 00:16:10,880 Speaker 3: was a point in my pregnancy where I got an 282 00:16:10,920 --> 00:16:16,520 Speaker 3: ultrasound from a doctor who is an expert in fetal brains, 283 00:16:16,720 --> 00:16:19,360 Speaker 3: and she told me that she saw something. 284 00:16:19,120 --> 00:16:23,160 Speaker 5: Unusual in my fetus's brain, but that I would. 285 00:16:22,960 --> 00:16:26,600 Speaker 3: Need to get an MRI in order to confirm the results. 286 00:16:27,280 --> 00:16:29,640 Speaker 3: And I needed to wait a week to get that MRI. 287 00:16:30,520 --> 00:16:33,080 Speaker 3: And once I got THERI, the MRI doctor said the 288 00:16:33,120 --> 00:16:36,960 Speaker 3: brain was perfectly normal looking. But for that week, I 289 00:16:37,000 --> 00:16:39,400 Speaker 3: was like, this was a wanted pregnancy, But now I 290 00:16:39,520 --> 00:16:46,120 Speaker 3: have to prepare for the possibility that I am carrying 291 00:16:46,160 --> 00:16:49,880 Speaker 3: a baby who's not going to survive or who I 292 00:16:49,880 --> 00:16:53,920 Speaker 3: would need to consider the possibility of having an abortion. 293 00:16:55,080 --> 00:16:58,680 Speaker 3: And meanwhile I was opening Flow and it was like, 294 00:16:58,720 --> 00:17:01,960 Speaker 3: your baby's almost here, Like your baby is almost gonna 295 00:17:01,960 --> 00:17:04,200 Speaker 3: be bought, Like your baby is crying in the womb, 296 00:17:04,440 --> 00:17:06,200 Speaker 3: just like it's gonna cry on the outside. 297 00:17:06,680 --> 00:17:07,680 Speaker 1: And I was so. 298 00:17:09,240 --> 00:17:13,440 Speaker 3: Shaken and offended that this the app was like assuming 299 00:17:13,480 --> 00:17:16,160 Speaker 3: all of these things that I felt like, at least 300 00:17:16,160 --> 00:17:19,000 Speaker 3: for that week, we're no longer things that I could assume. 301 00:17:19,920 --> 00:17:23,880 Speaker 5: But yeah, it really it knew my do date and 302 00:17:23,920 --> 00:17:24,359 Speaker 5: that was it. 303 00:17:31,680 --> 00:17:34,560 Speaker 2: After the break, the blurry line between pregnancy tech and 304 00:17:34,600 --> 00:17:57,160 Speaker 2: eugenics stayed with us. One of the most surprising things 305 00:17:57,240 --> 00:17:59,000 Speaker 2: about the book to me was the kind of rabbit 306 00:17:59,040 --> 00:18:02,040 Speaker 2: hole you go down, connecting eugenics in Silicon Valley to 307 00:18:02,400 --> 00:18:06,840 Speaker 2: genetic screening startups and then how it all shockingly ties 308 00:18:06,880 --> 00:18:10,119 Speaker 2: into feminist theory. So how did you end up making 309 00:18:10,160 --> 00:18:13,000 Speaker 2: these connections and what were some of your big takeaways 310 00:18:13,000 --> 00:18:14,120 Speaker 2: from this section. 311 00:18:13,880 --> 00:18:14,359 Speaker 5: Of the book. 312 00:18:14,760 --> 00:18:17,000 Speaker 3: I mean, I think at first I was using Flow 313 00:18:17,720 --> 00:18:21,960 Speaker 3: and I was just trying to understand, like who started 314 00:18:22,080 --> 00:18:27,800 Speaker 3: tracking periods, Like how were people tracking periods before apps? 315 00:18:28,160 --> 00:18:32,800 Speaker 3: Before feminist books in the nineteen seventies, and there's a 316 00:18:32,800 --> 00:18:35,120 Speaker 3: bunch of different theories about what the origins are. 317 00:18:35,160 --> 00:18:36,919 Speaker 5: Like there are people who believe that they are. 318 00:18:36,800 --> 00:18:41,679 Speaker 3: Like notches on an ancient whalebone that represent like a 319 00:18:41,720 --> 00:18:44,280 Speaker 3: women's cycle. But like what I came to understand was, 320 00:18:44,359 --> 00:18:47,800 Speaker 3: for most of human history, like women's cycles were so 321 00:18:48,600 --> 00:18:52,480 Speaker 3: irregular that it wouldn't have made sense to track a 322 00:18:52,480 --> 00:18:55,679 Speaker 3: period just because the level of nutrition or whatever, like 323 00:18:55,720 --> 00:18:59,800 Speaker 3: food security of human beings was not what it is today. 324 00:19:00,280 --> 00:19:04,040 Speaker 3: But then I found this woman, Marie Stops, who was 325 00:19:04,080 --> 00:19:08,960 Speaker 3: like an early proponent of tracking women's cycles, and she 326 00:19:09,119 --> 00:19:13,399 Speaker 3: was doing it in this proto feminist way in the 327 00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:16,480 Speaker 3: early nineteen hundreds. There was a lot of like fascination 328 00:19:16,600 --> 00:19:19,480 Speaker 3: at this time about menstrual cycles, whether they meant that 329 00:19:19,560 --> 00:19:21,760 Speaker 3: like women shouldn't be able to work because they were 330 00:19:21,800 --> 00:19:24,719 Speaker 3: like laid out for like several days a month or whatever. 331 00:19:25,160 --> 00:19:29,480 Speaker 3: And she started tracking her cycle on paper and then 332 00:19:29,600 --> 00:19:34,920 Speaker 3: tracking basically like how horny she was at various parts 333 00:19:35,000 --> 00:19:38,119 Speaker 3: in the cycle to prove that like this horniness that 334 00:19:38,200 --> 00:19:43,360 Speaker 3: she was experiencing was natural, it was normal, and that 335 00:19:43,440 --> 00:19:45,960 Speaker 3: it didn't have anything to do with her husband. And 336 00:19:46,119 --> 00:19:48,159 Speaker 3: it really reminded me of flow because there were so 337 00:19:48,240 --> 00:19:50,320 Speaker 3: many things that she was charting that I could chart 338 00:19:50,480 --> 00:19:54,560 Speaker 3: in my flow app And then I found out that 339 00:19:54,600 --> 00:19:58,360 Speaker 3: she was like a huge proponent of eugenics, which at 340 00:19:58,359 --> 00:20:02,399 Speaker 3: the time was very popular as it is now again today, 341 00:20:02,440 --> 00:20:04,840 Speaker 3: I think, but there was a way in which her 342 00:20:04,880 --> 00:20:09,200 Speaker 3: eugenics intersected with this data tracking that she was doing, 343 00:20:09,280 --> 00:20:13,879 Speaker 3: where she was establishing what was normal in a reproductive sense, 344 00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:16,840 Speaker 3: and she was also arguing that people who fall outside 345 00:20:17,320 --> 00:20:23,280 Speaker 3: of the bounds of normal, which for her was Northern European, white, 346 00:20:23,640 --> 00:20:25,560 Speaker 3: heterosexual whatever. 347 00:20:25,720 --> 00:20:28,560 Speaker 5: Should not be allowed to reproduce. 348 00:20:29,359 --> 00:20:34,520 Speaker 3: And so I became interested in like where eugenics was 349 00:20:34,560 --> 00:20:39,080 Speaker 3: like sort of coursing through our modern technologies too. And 350 00:20:39,119 --> 00:20:42,360 Speaker 3: I do think there's this drumbeat of normal that they 351 00:20:42,400 --> 00:20:47,199 Speaker 3: try to establish often that carries on some of the 352 00:20:47,200 --> 00:20:51,919 Speaker 3: ideologies of that movement. But as I went on writing 353 00:20:51,960 --> 00:20:56,199 Speaker 3: the book, I found many more Silicon Valley startups that 354 00:20:56,880 --> 00:21:00,439 Speaker 3: are just self consciously eugenic, Like they wouldn't say that 355 00:21:00,440 --> 00:21:05,720 Speaker 3: their eugenics, but they are trying to improve the stock 356 00:21:05,760 --> 00:21:06,800 Speaker 3: of human babies. 357 00:21:07,520 --> 00:21:09,080 Speaker 5: I have a kid who has an. 358 00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:13,240 Speaker 3: Overgrowth disorder, which means that he is a higher risk 359 00:21:13,400 --> 00:21:18,960 Speaker 3: of having pediatric cancer than most kids. And so when 360 00:21:19,080 --> 00:21:24,919 Speaker 3: I read a lot of the advertisements for these testing companies, 361 00:21:25,040 --> 00:21:28,919 Speaker 3: these embryo testing companies, I find that, like the first 362 00:21:28,920 --> 00:21:33,280 Speaker 3: thing they often say is pediatric cancer. They're basically like 363 00:21:33,320 --> 00:21:37,320 Speaker 3: claiming they can like cure cancer by weeding it out genetically. 364 00:21:37,760 --> 00:21:40,600 Speaker 3: And then after that they're introducing other stuff like maybe 365 00:21:40,960 --> 00:21:43,960 Speaker 3: someday we could have like an IQ score, or you 366 00:21:44,119 --> 00:21:48,800 Speaker 3: could optimize for a baby who was tall and who 367 00:21:48,920 --> 00:21:51,239 Speaker 3: had great coordination and maybe they'd be like very good 368 00:21:51,280 --> 00:21:53,600 Speaker 3: at playing sports or whatever. But I always found that 369 00:21:53,640 --> 00:21:57,840 Speaker 3: it was sort of like taken as non controversial that 370 00:21:57,880 --> 00:22:02,080 Speaker 3: you would want to like eradicates associated with pediatric cancer, 371 00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:06,400 Speaker 3: which I find interesting because like, that's that's my son, right, 372 00:22:07,760 --> 00:22:09,920 Speaker 3: and I certainly don't want to eliminate him, and I 373 00:22:09,960 --> 00:22:11,560 Speaker 3: think he has a life worth living. 374 00:22:11,880 --> 00:22:13,960 Speaker 5: And all of these things, I think, you know, have been. 375 00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:19,160 Speaker 3: Coming out and are endorsed by tech political leaders who 376 00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:23,080 Speaker 3: are at the same time slashing research for pediatric cancer 377 00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:24,680 Speaker 3: or like getting rid of welfare. 378 00:22:24,760 --> 00:22:26,240 Speaker 5: And I see all. 379 00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:30,680 Speaker 3: The time like comments under these companies ads that are 380 00:22:30,680 --> 00:22:33,159 Speaker 3: like this is really going to reduce the amount of 381 00:22:33,160 --> 00:22:36,240 Speaker 3: money that we have to pay for healthcare. And so 382 00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:39,240 Speaker 3: when I was first starting to look at this stuff, 383 00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:41,520 Speaker 3: I was like, oh, like deep within this stuff, there's 384 00:22:41,760 --> 00:22:44,359 Speaker 3: sort of like hints of eugenics. And then at the 385 00:22:44,440 --> 00:22:45,919 Speaker 3: end of writing the book, you know, now that it's 386 00:22:45,920 --> 00:22:49,360 Speaker 3: twenty twenty five, it's it's not a hint anymore. 387 00:22:50,640 --> 00:22:55,399 Speaker 2: Do you have advice for parents or people who are 388 00:22:55,400 --> 00:22:59,040 Speaker 2: planning on becoming parents and are overwhelmed with figuring out 389 00:22:59,040 --> 00:23:03,040 Speaker 2: what role technology should play in parenting? Do you have 390 00:23:03,119 --> 00:23:05,040 Speaker 2: any sensible takeaways? 391 00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:10,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I think the most sensible advice that 392 00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:13,520 Speaker 3: I give people is like, try not to buy anything 393 00:23:13,560 --> 00:23:15,040 Speaker 3: before your kid is born. 394 00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:17,000 Speaker 2: Which defies conventional wisdom. 395 00:23:17,320 --> 00:23:20,160 Speaker 3: I know, once the algorithms like figure out you're pregnant, 396 00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:21,960 Speaker 3: they're going to be trying to sell you all of 397 00:23:21,960 --> 00:23:22,520 Speaker 3: this stuff. 398 00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:24,000 Speaker 5: And it's like a. 399 00:23:24,160 --> 00:23:29,240 Speaker 3: Five hundred dollars video monitor that like uploads a three 400 00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:32,119 Speaker 3: D representation of your child to the cloud that's like 401 00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:35,159 Speaker 3: watched to see if they are like breathing normally or whatever. 402 00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:39,000 Speaker 3: I was so stressed during pregnancy, and I felt so 403 00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:44,040 Speaker 3: unprepared that I it's not that I bought everything, but 404 00:23:44,119 --> 00:23:47,320 Speaker 3: I bought stuff that I didn't end up needing and 405 00:23:47,359 --> 00:23:51,000 Speaker 3: now I have like a fifteen dollars audio monitor, which 406 00:23:51,040 --> 00:23:54,640 Speaker 3: would have been perfectly acceptable with a newborn as well. 407 00:23:54,560 --> 00:23:56,560 Speaker 2: And was acceptable for many decades. 408 00:23:56,800 --> 00:23:59,720 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, And it was helpful to me to 409 00:23:59,800 --> 00:24:04,080 Speaker 3: like see the way that these audio monitors were advertised 410 00:24:04,119 --> 00:24:06,440 Speaker 3: when they first came out, like in the nineteen twenties. 411 00:24:06,760 --> 00:24:10,480 Speaker 3: There's so much fear mongering in the ads, and it's like, 412 00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:15,359 Speaker 3: you need this two way radio to hear if somebody 413 00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:17,960 Speaker 3: is going to enter your home and snatch your baby away. 414 00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:21,280 Speaker 3: And they call them like the radio nurse or whatever, 415 00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:23,800 Speaker 3: and their estyle is like so much more reliable than 416 00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:26,480 Speaker 3: a real baby nurse because it's not a person you 417 00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:29,879 Speaker 3: could steal a baby. And so to me, like just 418 00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:33,240 Speaker 3: seeing the stoking of the fear like transforms through the 419 00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:36,479 Speaker 3: generations where now it's like your baby may stop breathing 420 00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:40,160 Speaker 3: in the night and never breathe again, and that's true, 421 00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:43,320 Speaker 3: like that could happen, But none of these devices are 422 00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:47,200 Speaker 3: FDA approved for preventing SIDS. 423 00:24:47,760 --> 00:24:53,240 Speaker 2: What is the craziest thing related to parenting or motherhood 424 00:24:53,280 --> 00:24:56,360 Speaker 2: that you have seen online? 425 00:24:57,160 --> 00:25:01,439 Speaker 3: There's this genre of parenting video that's like a video 426 00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:05,639 Speaker 3: of the person's child making all of their food in 427 00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:08,879 Speaker 3: a tiny kitchen themselves. But it's because the parent is 428 00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:11,520 Speaker 3: like such a good parent that they've already trained their 429 00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:15,120 Speaker 3: two year old to like empty the dishwasher and like 430 00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:18,280 Speaker 3: boil water or whatever, like make pasta, like put their 431 00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:20,560 Speaker 3: cereal in a bowl from the cereal dispenser, and they're 432 00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:22,399 Speaker 3: like such a good parent that their child is this 433 00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:26,440 Speaker 3: like beautiful miniature kitchen or whatever. And then the comments 434 00:25:26,560 --> 00:25:30,440 Speaker 3: on it are like finding fault with the best parent ever, 435 00:25:30,560 --> 00:25:31,200 Speaker 3: and like that. 436 00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:32,440 Speaker 5: Apple slice is too big. 437 00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:37,639 Speaker 3: Yeah, cereal isn't real food, Like have your child prepare 438 00:25:37,680 --> 00:25:38,879 Speaker 3: real food for themselves. 439 00:25:39,119 --> 00:25:39,600 Speaker 5: I mean, I. 440 00:25:39,560 --> 00:25:42,040 Speaker 3: Think there's so much content. 441 00:25:42,480 --> 00:25:43,520 Speaker 5: You know, I have toddlers. 442 00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:44,920 Speaker 3: Now I have like two year old and a four 443 00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:48,840 Speaker 3: year old, and so I'm aware of a bunch of 444 00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:52,960 Speaker 3: content around lunch packing or whatever. And it's styled as 445 00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:56,000 Speaker 3: like advice, Like I know, you're so out of ideas 446 00:25:56,040 --> 00:25:58,880 Speaker 3: of like what to pack for lunch here like all 447 00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:00,879 Speaker 3: of these ideas about what to put in the bento box. 448 00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:03,280 Speaker 3: And like I started out being like I don't think 449 00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:06,960 Speaker 3: I should know what somebody else feeds their child. Now 450 00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:09,040 Speaker 3: my kids are in public school, I'm like I don't 451 00:26:09,040 --> 00:26:11,520 Speaker 3: want to know what they eat, Like I don't want 452 00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:15,040 Speaker 3: to know what they're being fed at school. My mind 453 00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:18,679 Speaker 3: is like blissfully free of this information, and it's so great, 454 00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:23,280 Speaker 3: and I feel like there are all of these accounts 455 00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:26,439 Speaker 3: that like exist to like try to make you do 456 00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:30,119 Speaker 3: work that's like not actually necessary, and like having my 457 00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:32,840 Speaker 3: kids like eat school lunch just basically the one way 458 00:26:33,359 --> 00:26:37,639 Speaker 3: I'm able to access this ideal society where like we 459 00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:40,680 Speaker 3: actually share things and like we eat the same thing 460 00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:44,320 Speaker 3: instead of sharing advice on how you can make the 461 00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:46,600 Speaker 3: same fancy omelet that. 462 00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:47,400 Speaker 5: I've paid for my kid. 463 00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:50,800 Speaker 3: I think just this idea of like trading actual support 464 00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:53,560 Speaker 3: with advice is like such a bad trade off. 465 00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:55,000 Speaker 5: It's such an awful trade off. 466 00:26:55,920 --> 00:26:58,000 Speaker 2: Thanks so much for joining me, Amanda. 467 00:26:57,520 --> 00:27:14,240 Speaker 5: Thank you so much for having me for tech stuff. 468 00:27:14,280 --> 00:27:16,120 Speaker 1: I'm Kara Price Namas Valoshian. 469 00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:17,120 Speaker 4: This episode was. 470 00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:20,439 Speaker 2: Produced by Eliza Dennis, Melissa Slaughter, and Tyler Hill. It 471 00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:24,360 Speaker 2: was executive produced by me Ozwalashan, Julia Nutter, and Kate 472 00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:28,800 Speaker 2: Osborne for Kaleidoscope and Katrina Norvelle for iHeart Podcasts. Jack 473 00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:31,720 Speaker 2: Insley mixed this episode and Kyle Murdoch wrote our theme song. 474 00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:34,000 Speaker 1: Join us on Friday for the Weekend Tech when Karen 475 00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:36,320 Speaker 1: I will run through the tech headlines you may have missed. 476 00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:39,400 Speaker 2: Please rate, review, and reach out to us at tech 477 00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:47,520 Speaker 2: Stuff Podcast at gmail dot com.