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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, a gorgeous young girl, an

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Speaker 1: aspiring model, takes a bus and has never seen alive again.

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Speaker 1: What happened to Mary Jane Thompson. I mean, I see

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Speaker 1: Grace and this is Crime Stories. Thank you for being

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Speaker 1: with us here at Fox Nation and Serious X one eleven.

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Speaker 1: I hate that never seen alive again, and it brings

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Speaker 1: to mind the stark dichotomy of us going through our

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Speaker 1: regular lives. I'm sitting here at this microphone. You're somewhere

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Speaker 1: on your device, watching or listening. Got Jackie Media here

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Speaker 1: in the studio with me. Everything's normal, tick tick, and

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Speaker 1: then all of a sudden, it's not all of a sudden.

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Speaker 1: It will never be the same again. I've lived through

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Speaker 1: that with the death of my fiancee, his murder. I'm

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Speaker 1: thinking about this young girl, she's twenty one, beautiful on

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Speaker 1: the inside and the outside. That's rare, going about her life,

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Speaker 1: hopping on a bus, and then she's never seen alive again.

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Speaker 1: With me and All Star panel to make sense of

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Speaker 1: what we know. First of all, Matthew Mangino, renowned attorney,

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Speaker 1: former prosecutor, author of The Executioners, told doctor Angela Arnold

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Speaker 1: esteem psychiatrists joining us out of the Atlanta jurisdiction and

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Speaker 1: you can find her at Angela Arnold MD dot com.

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Speaker 1: Lisa daddy O, former police lieutenant, and you have IMPD

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Speaker 1: and now the senior lecturer and director for Center for

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Speaker 1: Advanced Policing, doctor Kendall Crowns. We know him well, the

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Speaker 1: chief Medical Examiner Tarrant County. That's Fort Worth again, never

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Speaker 1: a lack of business there. But also Lecture University Texas,

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Speaker 1: Texas A and M Faculty University Texas Medical School. Dave

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Speaker 1: mac joining us on this story for the longest Dave

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Speaker 1: joining us from Crime Online dot com. And a special

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Speaker 1: guest joining us, a genetic genealogist, Shara La Pointe, author

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Speaker 1: of the Gene Hunter, and I'm not talking about the denim.

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Speaker 1: I'm talking about gne the gene Hunter and founder of

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Speaker 1: the gene Hunter dot com. As you can see, this

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Speaker 1: is going to take a village, a lot of people

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Speaker 1: to make sense of what happened to Mary Jane Thompson.

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Speaker 1: But first of you, doctor Angela Arnold, Psychiatrists joining us

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Speaker 1: out of the Atlanta jurisdiction, Doctor Angie. The stark dichotomy,

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Speaker 1: the contrast between this girl hopping on a bus minding

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Speaker 1: your own business. I did it a million times in

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Speaker 1: New York, going from court TV to home, from court

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Speaker 1: TV to a shell in I had a triangle, and

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Speaker 1: I would never think anything about it my my own business.

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Speaker 1: Try to read, if I could, the dichotomy of that

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Speaker 1: moment that's so ordinary, and then suddenly she's never seen again.

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Speaker 1: There's something very jarring about that, doctor Angie. It's very

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Speaker 1: jarring to everyone, because Nancy, we none of us can

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Speaker 1: live our lives in the fear of thinking that every

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Speaker 1: time we go about our daily activities, something could possibly

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Speaker 1: happen to us. And it's only when we're reminded that

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Speaker 1: something could happen like this, so unex expected and out

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Speaker 1: of the ordinary, that we all pause and take a

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Speaker 1: deep breath and think, oh my god, it's so horrendous.

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Speaker 1: Thank god it didn't happen to me. But our minds

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Speaker 1: protect us, and we and we mourn that, and then

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Speaker 1: we go about our daily lives again without being fearful

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Speaker 1: every day. So I am quite sure that this young

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Speaker 1: girl who was just starting off her life never got

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Speaker 1: on and off of her bus with the fear that

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Speaker 1: something that someone was going to take her life to

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Speaker 1: Matthew Mangino joining me, high profile lawyer, former prosecutor. You know,

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Speaker 1: I disagree with a lot of what Dodger Angie just said,

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Speaker 1: because I don't think you always live in fear after

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Speaker 1: case murder, my fiance's murder. I don't live in fear.

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Speaker 1: I just assume there's something really horrible can and will happen,

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Speaker 1: and I'm going to do everything they have on earth

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Speaker 1: to make it not happen. And if it does happen,

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Speaker 1: I will rip the throat out of whoever cost it.

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Speaker 1: So I don't know that I would call that fear.

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Speaker 1: Matthew Mangina, Well, I think you make a good point, Nancy.

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Speaker 1: He said that because I'm angry right now just hearing

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Speaker 1: Dodger Angela Arnill go on. Yes. So I think it's

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Speaker 1: important to recognize that, you know, maybe it's not necessarily fear,

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Speaker 1: but people have generally gone out of their way to

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Speaker 1: protect themselves, and I think that that in some ways

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Speaker 1: has had an impact on crime, because people are extra careful,

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Speaker 1: people take a route that they might normally take if

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Speaker 1: they have to go through a bad neighborhood. I think

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Speaker 1: that people generally have given up some liberty, whether we

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Speaker 1: like it or not, to protect ourselves and to provide

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Speaker 1: ourselves with some security. Now this was back in nineteen

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Speaker 1: eighty four. In crime rates, we're certainly high in the eighties.

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Speaker 1: But you know again, tmomies are high right now, man,

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Speaker 1: GINO go online, man, yes they are. Look, crime rates

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Speaker 1: are skyrocketing and multiple cities across our country. And think

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Speaker 1: about again, I was talking about the dichotomy. Okay, to

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Speaker 1: doctor Angela Arnold. I didn't agree with I didn't disagree

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Speaker 1: with everything you just said, but one thing is especially

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Speaker 1: poignant in that we protect ourselves. And you did say this,

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Speaker 1: so I'm echoing you because sometimes the only way you

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Speaker 1: can go through life, or some people anyway, is to

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Speaker 1: differentiate yourself and your children from all the crime victims.

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Speaker 1: It's not going to happen to me because fill in

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Speaker 1: the blank. I don't get on the interstate, I don't

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Speaker 1: go to bad areas. I don't this. I lock my car,

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Speaker 1: nobody can get in. Nothing's going to happen. I lock

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Speaker 1: my windows, I turn on the alarm. You can fill

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Speaker 1: in any blank you want, with any explanation you want,

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Speaker 1: because some people can't go forward knowing that this bad

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Speaker 1: thing could happen. They have to differentiate themselves from the

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Speaker 1: people that do become crime victims, or they just can't function.

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Speaker 1: But this girl did nothing. She worked at a florist

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Speaker 1: shop for Pete's sake. How dangerous is that? And a restaurant.

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Speaker 1: I completely agree with you, and I think that I

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Speaker 1: think that either I misspoke or I was misunderstood, because

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Speaker 1: I don't believe that people walk around in fear, even

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Speaker 1: with all of the crime that we have right now

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Speaker 1: in all of the different cities where we live. I

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Speaker 1: think you have to suspend the fear. Can I tell

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Speaker 1: you what happened the other night? The other night, I

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Speaker 1: walk around in fear unless something actually happens to you.

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Speaker 1: The other night, my husband where did he have to

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Speaker 1: He had to go somewhere and trust but confirm. I went, sure,

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Speaker 1: enjoy your dinner, and then immediately looked him up on

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Speaker 1: Life through sixty to make sure where he really was.

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Speaker 1: He was there, just so you know. But I thought, wow,

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Speaker 1: let's go out and have dinner. I'll go out and

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Speaker 1: have supper with the twins. So we go out, and

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Speaker 1: of course I had no cash, so I couldn't ask

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Speaker 1: the valet guy to part the car, so I'll let

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Speaker 1: the children off, and at night, in the dark, alone,

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Speaker 1: I go into a parking deck and I against every

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Speaker 1: single thing I put in my book, Don't be a Victim,

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Speaker 1: And I had to guess what park in a canyon?

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Speaker 1: That's what I call parking between two tall SUVs. There

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Speaker 1: was nowhere else I can hardly get in there. So

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Speaker 1: I got in there and I thought, Wow, this is

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Speaker 1: contrary to every single thing I have written in my book.

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Speaker 1: But I did it why because of what you just said.

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Speaker 1: I suspended all logic and continued on without fear, thinking, oh,

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Speaker 1: it's not going to happen to me. It did cross

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Speaker 1: my mind. How long would the twins sit there in

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Speaker 1: the restaurant alone before they figured out Mommy's there? Time?

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Speaker 1: So yes, is that what you're saying? We she used

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Speaker 1: to go forward thinking it's not going to happen to us,

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Speaker 1: or else we can't go forward? Exactly, That is exactly

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Speaker 1: what I'm saying, Dave Matt Who is Mary Jane Thompson

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Speaker 1: twenty one years old? What can you tell me about her?

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Speaker 1: Mary Jane Thompson actually grew up in a suburb of Buffalo,

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Speaker 1: New York called cheek Tawaga. Right after she graduated high school,

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Speaker 1: she took off. Her dream was to be a model,

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Speaker 1: and her sister said that was her dream from being

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Speaker 1: a very little girl that when she was seven, eight

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Speaker 1: nine years old, touching her clothes was a big no no.

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Speaker 1: She was a girly girl who had dreams of being

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Speaker 1: a model. And you mentioned she was a beautiful young woman.

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Speaker 1: Oh gosh, yeah, really really pretty. She leaves the Buffalo

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Speaker 1: area and ends up going to Houston, Los Angeles, and

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Speaker 1: she had moved to Dallas, and she, as you mentioned,

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Speaker 1: she was working at a florist shop and working at

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Speaker 1: a restaurant. So you've got a twenty one year old

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Speaker 1: young woman. She's got a real drive. She wants to

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Speaker 1: be a model. She leaves her family and friends in Buffalo,

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Speaker 1: New York. She's now in Dallas working two jobs making

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Speaker 1: it happen when she hops on a bus to go

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Speaker 1: to a medical clinic for a medical procedure, so she

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Speaker 1: is supporting herself working at a florist shop and a restaurant,

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Speaker 1: takes a bus and again is never saying alive after that.

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Speaker 1: Take a listen to our cut three. This Aliante stuck

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Speaker 1: w GRZ two. Her pictures are everywhere, her memory says

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Speaker 1: for us with the family. Mary Jane Thompson grew up

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Speaker 1: in Cheektowaga. After graduating from Cleveland Hill High School, she

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Speaker 1: moved to Dallas to pursue her dreams. Mary Jane was may.

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Speaker 1: She definitely minded be a model. Even being younger, she

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Speaker 1: was always dressing up. Touching her clothes would be like

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Speaker 1: a no no. On February thirteenth, twenty one year old

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Speaker 1: Mary Jane was going to a clinic for medical treatment

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Speaker 1: when she got the day we clothe and Nancy has

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Speaker 1: taken the bus a bad Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

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Speaker 1: Dave Matt with US Crime online dot Com investigative reporter.

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Speaker 1: So she gets on a bus. Where is this Houston?

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Speaker 1: Actually in Dallas, I'm sorry, Dallas. And she's just going

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Speaker 1: for a minor procedure and a clinic gets there and

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Speaker 1: the clinic is closed. Where is this exactly? It's actually

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Speaker 1: in an area of Dallas that has like it's like

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Speaker 1: a big warehouse district where not everything is full. There

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Speaker 1: are a lot of empty warehouses and things like that.

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Speaker 1: Geographically speaking, when you get there, it doesn't look like

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Speaker 1: it's an abandoned area, Nancy. But there's a lot of

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Speaker 1: inactivity in and around this Trinity Medical Center where back

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Speaker 1: at when this was taking place, understood, I wonder when

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Speaker 1: she was first missed, Dave mac Do we know who

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Speaker 1: missed her first? Oh, we don't because in reality, Nancy,

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Speaker 1: as I mentioned before you, she grew up outside of

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Speaker 1: Buffalo and her she was in contact with her family

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Speaker 1: members and they know when she went to the clinic

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Speaker 1: and in the time since they found out that the

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Speaker 1: clinic was closed and she was headed back to the

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Speaker 1: bus stop to get on a bus to go back home.

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Speaker 1: Two days pass no one realizes this gorgeous young girl

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Speaker 1: is even missing. Take a listen to our friend's w

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Speaker 1: GRZ to Buffalo. On February thirteenth, twenty one year old

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Speaker 1: Mary Jane was going to a clinic for medical treatment.

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Speaker 1: When she got there, they were closed and Dan she

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Speaker 1: was taken the bus back and that's very crack to

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Speaker 1: a bus stop. Two days later, Mary Jean's body was

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Speaker 1: found behind a Dallas warehouse. She'd been sexually assaulted and

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Speaker 1: murdered unerving Boulevard. To Dave Matt Crime online dot Com

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Speaker 1: investigative reporter. So two days pass, nobody really even I guess,

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Speaker 1: notices she's missing or knows she's missing. Do they just

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Speaker 1: find her body? That's what police are saying. Her body

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Speaker 1: was found and as I mented, it was behind an

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Speaker 1: empty warehouse. Nancy, So you've got an area that at

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Speaker 1: one point in time had been very active, now not

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Speaker 1: so much so the body was there for two days,

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Speaker 1: joining me, Doctor Kendall Crowns, Chief Medical Examiner, Tyrant County.

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Speaker 1: That is in Texas, Doctor Kendall Crowns. Mary Jane goes missing,

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Speaker 1: her body found in the middle of February. What's the

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Speaker 1: temperature in mid February they're in Texas currently in the

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Speaker 1: Fort Worth area, it is around thirty degrees and sleeting

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Speaker 1: thirty degrees and sleading. We've pulled up the year and

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Speaker 1: the date Mary Jane's murder and most of the evidence

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Speaker 1: reveals it was around forty degrees. You're saying it's lower

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Speaker 1: than that and sleading her body lies there? And how

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Speaker 1: was she killed? Dave mac She was strangled with her

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Speaker 1: own leg warmers, Nancy. That reminds me of Seandre Levy,

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Speaker 1: the Washington intern who goes missing and years pass and

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Speaker 1: her remains are found at Rock Creek Park and she

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Speaker 1: was strangled ligature style with her own leggings, her own tights.

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Speaker 1: Same thing here, Doctor Kendall crowns the fact that her

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Speaker 1: body would have been in the elements at that temperature,

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Speaker 1: what would you expect to find. So usually with the

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Speaker 1: colder weather, the decomposition rate that is slowed a little bit.

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Speaker 1: But she would probably still have some changes of decomposition

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Speaker 1: consisting of green discoloration, of some bloating and skin slippage,

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Speaker 1: but she wouldn't have any of the insect activity. Okay, well,

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Speaker 1: could you just repeat that slowly? Sure? So at that temperature,

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Speaker 1: her rate of decomposition would be slowed. She wouldn't have

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Speaker 1: a lot of changes, but she would have some green

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Speaker 1: discoloration of her skin, maybe a little skin slippage. But

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Speaker 1: the insect activity that you standardly see with bodies that

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Speaker 1: are outside would be non existent because the flies aren't

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Speaker 1: active in the cold weather. You know that just rolls

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Speaker 1: off the tip of your tongue talking about fly activity.

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Speaker 1: I do it too, because our job we're trying to

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Speaker 1: look at evidence. Mind legal, and you're medical. But when

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Speaker 1: you think about it being a twenty one year old

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Speaker 1: girl who works at a florist shop, and we're talking

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Speaker 1: about fly and insect activity on our body is very

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Speaker 1: upsetting and disconcerting. How would we know, doctor Kendall Crowns,

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Speaker 1: that she was sex assaulted? Usually when someone has been

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Speaker 1: sexually assaulted, there's evidence of injury around the genital regions,

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Speaker 1: usually abrasions and lacerations because the forced penetration. Well, the

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Speaker 1: way you said that, I don't even know you're talking

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Speaker 1: about rape. So you look for tissue tearing and the

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Speaker 1: vaginal and anal area, and you look for seamen sperm.

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Speaker 1: Can I make it any more plain? That would be

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Speaker 1: very accurate and very plain, Nancy. And the reason I

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Speaker 1: break it down is because having dealt with grars for

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Speaker 1: so many years and myself a lot of times would

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Speaker 1: doctors say, I don't know what they said they finished,

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Speaker 1: and it sounds really smart, but it's sometimes hard to

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Speaker 1: interpret no offense, Doctor Kendall Crowns, you're just smarter than

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Speaker 1: all of us, simply put. So you're saying they would

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Speaker 1: have known she was raped or sex assaulted because you

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Speaker 1: would expect to find vaginal or anal tearing or bruising

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Speaker 1: or laceration coupled with the presence of semen sperm? Correct?

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Speaker 1: Is that what you just said? Correct? Lisa Daddy, a

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Speaker 1: former police lieutenant, director of Center for Advanced Policing. Let's

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Speaker 1: just pretend, let's hypothesize the was wearing a rubber Okay,

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Speaker 1: then we wouldn't find sperm, we wouldn't find semen. What

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Speaker 1: if there's any number of ways to sex assault somebody,

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Speaker 1: So if that evidence didn't exist, and because the possible

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Speaker 1: use of a condom, what about she's undressed from the

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Speaker 1: waist down? What about that? So you know you have

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Speaker 1: all these other things to look at that would be

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Speaker 1: indicative of a sexual assault. If you wore a condom,

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Speaker 1: you're still gonna look for DNA that me be left

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Speaker 1: on her, whether or not there's any fingernail scrapings from

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Speaker 1: her that contained the suspects DNA from scratching from defending

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Speaker 1: herself from the attack. You're gonna look at maybe saliva.

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Speaker 1: I'm looking at evidence said there was a sex attack.

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Speaker 1: If I don't have if I don't have simon, how

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Speaker 1: do I know you're gonna look to see if there's

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Speaker 1: any other damage to her vaginal or you're gonna look

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Speaker 1: at her clothing. You're gonna look at whether or not

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Speaker 1: you know, where are her underwear, where are you know,

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Speaker 1: her pants? Well, she had leaguings on, so you know

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Speaker 1: you're gonna look at all that part of it, and

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Speaker 1: you're to see if there's any ripped clothing or anything

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Speaker 1: on the victim that's going to be indicative of a

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Speaker 1: possible sexual assault. You would look at the position of

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Speaker 1: the body. Does it look like she had been raped.

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Speaker 1: We know she was declothed because her leg warmers were

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Speaker 1: tied around her neck, so somewhere along the way she

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Speaker 1: lost her leggings. In my mind, that's enough circumstantial evidence

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Speaker 1: to prove that she was assaulted in some way. For

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Speaker 1: Pete's sake, we heard doctor Kendall crowns State's thirty degrees

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Speaker 1: and sleeping right now in Texas mid February, so in

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Speaker 1: that year, we also know it was very cold. Why

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Speaker 1: else would she take off our leg warmers on the

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Speaker 1: way to the bus for Pete's sake, no reason. I

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Speaker 1: don't need to have somebody tell me two and two

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Speaker 1: equals four. I can figure that out. My only hope

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Speaker 1: is that there could be DNA of some sort, and

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Speaker 1: I want to go back to you, Lisa Daddio, the

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Speaker 1: director of Center Forida Advanced Policing. Even if there's not semen,

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Speaker 1: you mentioned looking under her nails, because I guarantee you

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Speaker 1: she did not have her leggings taken off her body

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Speaker 1: voluntarily on a day that cold, on the way to

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Speaker 1: a bus. That didn't happen. I think she fought. How

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Speaker 1: else could we find evidence, Lisa Daddio, You're gonna look

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Speaker 1: at her fingernail scrapings. You're gonna look at parts of

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Speaker 1: her body where there may be hair fibers, something that

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Speaker 1: connects the suspect to her and her body. There's other

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Speaker 1: types of evidence that can be present on her body

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Speaker 1: or around the area that directly link him to the scene.

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Speaker 1: If we don't have seminal fluid like saliva, hair from him,

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Speaker 1: whether it's pubic hair, chest hair, arm hair, lag hair,

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Speaker 1: head hair, if it contains a follicle, you can get

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Speaker 1: DNA from that. Now you can back then you were

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Speaker 1: not illable too. You mean, if it has a nucleus,

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Speaker 1: you can extract DNA. If you don't have a nucleus,

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Speaker 1: you'll have to stick with mitochondrial DNA that can be

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Speaker 1: extracted from the hair without a nucleus. Yes. Yes. Matthew Mangino,

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Speaker 1: high profile a lawyer joining US and author of the Executioners,

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Speaker 1: told Matthew he ever had a purp that actually shaved

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Speaker 1: his body so he would not leave behind hair. I

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Speaker 1: haven't dealt with that directly, but certainly I am aware

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Speaker 1: of the situations where that was done. Yeah, it's happened,

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Speaker 1: especially with serial rapists. They don't want to get caught

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Speaker 1: and they want to keep on raping and killing. They

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Speaker 1: will remove all the hair from their body from the

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Speaker 1: neck down. They especially in the pubic area, they will

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Speaker 1: wear a condom and very often, even where rubber gloves

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Speaker 1: a sensitive type, they're very thin. Yes, that's right, and

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Speaker 1: so you cannot always expect to find DNA from a

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Speaker 1: crime scene. Would you agree with that, Matthew Mangina, Yes,

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Speaker 1: well I would agree. You're talking Nancy about, you know,

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Speaker 1: a serial rapist. This is someone who's gone to great

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Speaker 1: lengths to to keep his identity from being unveiled, either

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Speaker 1: by pair or by DNA or some other subs. I

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Speaker 1: don't I think that most rapists are acting on impulse

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Speaker 1: and that they're not going through this strategy of how

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Speaker 1: they can hide their identity. Certainly they may be aware

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Speaker 1: that they don't want to be caught, but but often

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Speaker 1: it's it's an opportunity. Here. Here's an attractive young woman

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Speaker 1: walking in a neighborhood by herself, and somebody comes along

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Speaker 1: and grabs her off the street and sexually assaults here,

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Speaker 1: and none figures well. I gues my only way of

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Speaker 1: not getting caught here is to kill her so she

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Speaker 1: can identify. And I think that's more likely the circumstance

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Speaker 1: in this case. Matthew Maino, I think you're absolutely correct.

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Speaker 1: We watch a lot of crime stories and movies and streaming.

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Speaker 1: I don't think most criminals are as smart as the

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Speaker 1: way they are portrayed in the media. I think you're right,

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Speaker 1: although those I don't know if I would call them

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Speaker 1: smart Doctor's Yarnal are just evil. They do exist, and

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Speaker 1: they do strike, and they're never caught. What kind of

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Speaker 1: a mind does that take? I mean, Nancy, I don't

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Speaker 1: believe that we can necessarily distinguish this point if they're smart.

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Speaker 1: You know, if they're smart and or evil. I don't

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Speaker 1: think those two things negate each other. They're horribly evil.

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Speaker 1: I didn't know psychilotrists like you even believed in evil. Oh,

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Speaker 1: he believe thought everybody was just had a bad childhood. No, Nancy,

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Speaker 1: there are people that are evil. Yeah, it could be

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Speaker 1: from their childhood, but there are there are evil people

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Speaker 1: that cannot be treated. Time stories with Nancy Grace now

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Speaker 1: joining us, a so called genetic genealogist and author of

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Speaker 1: The Gene Hunter, founder of the gene hunter dot com.

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Speaker 1: Shara l a point high profile geneticist. Shara, thank you

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Speaker 1: for being with us. Thanks for having me, Nancy, Shara,

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Speaker 1: this case languishes for thirty eight years. What was missing? Well,

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Speaker 1: why couldn't they solve the case? Nancy? When she was

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Speaker 1: raped and murdered, The autopsy that was done preserved evidence.

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Speaker 1: In nineteen eighty four, we didn't have the tools and

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Speaker 1: the information that we have now. There was no such

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Speaker 1: thing as CODUS, which is the combined DNA indexing system

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Speaker 1: that came to be in nineteen ninety four, and in

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Speaker 1: that system we now have access to DNA that has

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Speaker 1: been taken from known perpetrators. But in nineteen eighty four,

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Speaker 1: they had nothing to compare it, nor did they have

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Speaker 1: the tools to even know that they could do that.

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Speaker 1: You're hearing Cheryl a point in genetic genealogist and author,

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Speaker 1: so doctor Kendall Crowns, we could only hope that the

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Speaker 1: correct DNA swabbing was done at the time of Mary

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Speaker 1: Jane Thompson's autopsy. Describe what that would have been had

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Speaker 1: it been done. Okay, standardly, when a sexual activity KID

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Speaker 1: is taken at the time of autopsy, Why did you

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Speaker 1: say sex activity? It's a rape kit. You think Mary

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Speaker 1: Jane Thompson wanted to have sex with a stranger in

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Speaker 1: the snow behind a warehouse. No, Nancy, I don't think

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Speaker 1: that she desired to have sex with a stranger d

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Speaker 1: a warehouse. That's right, gape. But in our vernacular, sexual

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Speaker 1: activity KID is what we're calling them because rape implies

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Speaker 1: something that lawyers don't like. So that's what I've always

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Speaker 1: been told to refer to the ass If you would

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Speaker 1: prefer me to call the rape, well, upon, don't you

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Speaker 1: just call it what it is? If you think that

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Speaker 1: you're even doing an autopsy or you have to swap

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Speaker 1: somebody's rear end with a Q tip and you think

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Speaker 1: that was what did you say sex activity? That's certainly

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Speaker 1: putting perfume on the pig. Don't you think, well, your

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Speaker 1: friends in the defense attorney world preferred us not. Luckily

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Speaker 1: we're not in that world. You're in Nancy Land now.

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Speaker 1: So how do you do the swab? So? How I

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Speaker 1: do this? Swabs usually with a sexual activity kit aka

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Speaker 1: a rape kit. We do oral, anal and vaginal swabs.

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Speaker 1: There's two Q tips that have wooden long wooden handles

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Speaker 1: on them. Their placed in each of those cavities and

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Speaker 1: then moved around and then they're taken out and placed

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Speaker 1: into a sterile paper box that has been sealed, initialed,

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Speaker 1: and handed to a law enforcement officer or a crime

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Speaker 1: scene individual to take to the crime lamb. We'll also

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Speaker 1: scrape the fingernails, will cut all the fingernails off and

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Speaker 1: remove them as well, and then we'll swab any areas

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Speaker 1: that are potential DNA aspects like bruises on the neck

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Speaker 1: or bite marks. Can I ask you your preference regarding

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Speaker 1: bagging of the hands? The lord place help us that

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Speaker 1: they did bag her hands at the scene before she

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Speaker 1: was moved. That means you put a bag over the

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Speaker 1: hands and then a rubber band or secure it at

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Speaker 1: the wrist so that her hands won't touch the sheets

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Speaker 1: or the medical medical examiner investigators, or the gurney or

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Speaker 1: the bag they put her in. You don't want to

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Speaker 1: destroy what may be under her nails, and you don't

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Speaker 1: want to add fiber from somebody's scrubs. So do you

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Speaker 1: prefer a paper or a plastic bag? Because I've only

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Speaker 1: ever seen paper bags. The paper bag is what's preferred

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Speaker 1: because if you put a plastic bag on there, it

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Speaker 1: can cause condensation, which can result in mold growth, and

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Speaker 1: it can also cause disruption of the DNA evidence. So really,

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Speaker 1: plastic should never be used. Have you ever seen it used?

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Speaker 1: I have, and it's unfortunate when it is used. Why

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Speaker 1: do people still do that? I think because it's what's

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Speaker 1: convenient or what someone has at the scene. Sometimes, as

426
00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:07,520
Speaker 1: the smaller police agencies, they don't carry as a little

427
00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:09,640
Speaker 1: kid in their car and they just use what they've have.

428
00:29:10,280 --> 00:29:13,200
Speaker 1: I've seen the individuals come in with sonic bags wrapped

429
00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:17,520
Speaker 1: around their hands. You know what. God bless them for

430
00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:21,040
Speaker 1: wrapping the hands. God bless them even though they used

431
00:29:21,080 --> 00:29:26,080
Speaker 1: to fast the burger bag to Sheryl A point our

432
00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:31,120
Speaker 1: genetic genealogist. Why is it so important the hands be

433
00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:35,600
Speaker 1: your rap Look power to them for wrapping them with

434
00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:38,040
Speaker 1: a sonic bag or a plastic bag or any bag,

435
00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:42,080
Speaker 1: because if you don't wrap the hands and secure them,

436
00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:48,760
Speaker 1: bad things happened. Sara explain Nancy, I have never been attacked,

437
00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:52,520
Speaker 1: but if I was to be attacked, the first thing

438
00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:55,920
Speaker 1: that I think I would do would be use my

439
00:29:56,080 --> 00:29:59,960
Speaker 1: hands to grab the person who's attacking me. I would

440
00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:03,960
Speaker 1: want to scratch their eyeballs out. And I know now

441
00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:07,320
Speaker 1: I want to get DNA under my fingernails. I think

442
00:30:07,360 --> 00:30:11,440
Speaker 1: that's just a human response. When you're attacked, you want

443
00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:16,280
Speaker 1: to attack back. And the hand or a wonderful place

444
00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:18,680
Speaker 1: for us to be able to find DNA, to be

445
00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:23,600
Speaker 1: able to solve these crimes, you know, Matthew Mangino. I

446
00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:28,360
Speaker 1: remember I had been prosecuting maybe oh gosh, maybe five

447
00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:32,080
Speaker 1: years when I got a call from the elected DA,

448
00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:34,800
Speaker 1: who's like your grandfather to me, a very stern grandfather.

449
00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:39,920
Speaker 1: And I actually picked an office. It was very small

450
00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:44,520
Speaker 1: by the stairs in the DA's office because the DA's

451
00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:48,800
Speaker 1: office so had so many, you know, eighty lawyers, investigators,

452
00:30:48,800 --> 00:30:53,320
Speaker 1: a Pellette crew, just the worst. And I did not

453
00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:57,680
Speaker 1: like waiting on an elevator. So I remember hearing mister

454
00:30:57,760 --> 00:31:03,440
Speaker 1: Slayton thirty seven years the elected d say, Nancy, report

455
00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:06,800
Speaker 1: to my office. I'm like I shot out of that

456
00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:08,960
Speaker 1: little office. And the reason I liked it is by

457
00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:14,360
Speaker 1: the stairs the emergency exit, and would run in heels

458
00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:18,560
Speaker 1: down to the third floor to get to his office immediately.

459
00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:22,320
Speaker 1: And he gave me a case that had been tried

460
00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:27,400
Speaker 1: I think when I was still in college. Conviction went

461
00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:33,240
Speaker 1: all the way on appeal Georgia's Supreme Court, then I

462
00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:35,040
Speaker 1: guess the Fifth or it may have been the Eleventh

463
00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:37,680
Speaker 1: Circuit by that time, then all the way to the

464
00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:42,440
Speaker 1: US Supreme Court. It was about interlocking statements. The defendants

465
00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:45,080
Speaker 1: each gave his statement and then they were tried together,

466
00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:49,600
Speaker 1: which means a lot. You know, I don't want to

467
00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:52,280
Speaker 1: go too far down the rabbit hole, but you can't

468
00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:55,080
Speaker 1: bring in this guy's statement against this guy because you

469
00:31:55,120 --> 00:31:59,360
Speaker 1: can't cross examine him. You can't cross examine a defendant

470
00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:03,120
Speaker 1: that never takes to stand, So this guy doesn't get

471
00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:06,400
Speaker 1: the right to cross examine a witness, which is unconstitutional

472
00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:10,960
Speaker 1: under the sixth Amendment. Simply put. So, my point is

473
00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:14,920
Speaker 1: when I tried to try that case again, this was

474
00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:22,080
Speaker 1: sixteen years later, I had one x ray of the

475
00:32:22,160 --> 00:32:27,880
Speaker 1: dead victim and a hat that said kiss my bass.

476
00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:32,120
Speaker 1: That was my evidence. I had to start at the

477
00:32:32,160 --> 00:32:35,200
Speaker 1: beginning and do the whole case all over again. Here

478
00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:40,240
Speaker 1: you've got a thirty eight year old case. You got

479
00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:43,440
Speaker 1: to pray for a miracle, Mangino, a miracle. Well, yes,

480
00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:46,800
Speaker 1: I mean, you know thirty eight years of past. You

481
00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:50,760
Speaker 1: don't have any witnesses, so to speak, eyewitnesses, people who

482
00:32:51,120 --> 00:32:55,840
Speaker 1: who saw anybody around her or or actually saw the

483
00:32:56,480 --> 00:32:59,400
Speaker 1: sexual assault. So all that you're going to have in

484
00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:02,920
Speaker 1: this case is at physical evience. So this case may

485
00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:06,640
Speaker 1: may have some more physical evidence than you had, you know,

486
00:33:06,760 --> 00:33:10,600
Speaker 1: kids my bass hat. But but and there's more to work.

487
00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:14,200
Speaker 1: And technology has evolved over time that puts us in

488
00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:20,120
Speaker 1: a position where we can better evaluate and analyze physical evidence. So, well,

489
00:33:20,160 --> 00:33:23,760
Speaker 1: you certainly have a long passage of time, and you

490
00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:28,960
Speaker 1: don't have these witnesses. You do have, it appears physical

491
00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:34,280
Speaker 1: evidence that in time, technology is going to unseal for us.

492
00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:38,800
Speaker 1: Lisa Daddy joining me for a police lieutenant, What was

493
00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:44,360
Speaker 1: the training like in eighty four versus today? Can you

494
00:33:44,560 --> 00:33:47,640
Speaker 1: shed light on that for us? I mean, the techniques

495
00:33:48,160 --> 00:33:53,480
Speaker 1: have evolved immensely. Yeah, I mean back in eighty four

496
00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:58,120
Speaker 1: and honestly prior to the mid nineties, it was pretty basic.

497
00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:02,800
Speaker 1: You know, you pret the crime saying you package all

498
00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:06,600
Speaker 1: your evidence the same. That hasn't changed. So paperbags nine

499
00:34:06,600 --> 00:34:08,719
Speaker 1: times out of ten, if you don't have them, you

500
00:34:08,760 --> 00:34:10,800
Speaker 1: go get them, even if you have to hit McDonald's

501
00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:15,000
Speaker 1: or Sonic or whichever. You take your pictures, you do

502
00:34:15,160 --> 00:34:18,120
Speaker 1: your video, and you package everything separately so you don't

503
00:34:18,120 --> 00:34:23,840
Speaker 1: cross contaminate. That hasn't changed. The preserving of the fingers

504
00:34:24,520 --> 00:34:29,560
Speaker 1: and the hands hasn't changed. We've always done it. What

505
00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:33,400
Speaker 1: has now changed as we're here in twenty twenty two

506
00:34:34,080 --> 00:34:37,799
Speaker 1: is we now can do so much with DNA and

507
00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:44,720
Speaker 1: swab surfaces looking for touch DNA trace amounts of DNA,

508
00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:47,319
Speaker 1: where before, when DNA was first discovered, we needed a

509
00:34:47,360 --> 00:34:48,880
Speaker 1: lot of it and it had to be in the

510
00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:56,239
Speaker 1: form of blood initially. Yeah, yeah, it's advanced incredibly. As

511
00:34:56,280 --> 00:35:01,440
Speaker 1: the years pass and no resolution to Mary Jane Thompson's case,

512
00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:05,800
Speaker 1: suddenly a glamour of hope. Take a listen to our

513
00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:10,920
Speaker 1: cut one CBS. Does anybody remember the Golden State killer

514
00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:14,840
Speaker 1: Joseph D'Angelo. Listen and cuff to a wheelchair. Joseph D'Angelo

515
00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:18,319
Speaker 1: was arraigned on charges for two murders in nineteen seventy eight.

516
00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:24,320
Speaker 1: He was barely audible answering the judge. Investigators found de'angelo

517
00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:27,920
Speaker 1: using DNA from crime scenes decades ago, which they submitted

518
00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:32,439
Speaker 1: to a publicly shared genealogy website called Jetmatch. Cold case

519
00:35:32,480 --> 00:35:35,560
Speaker 1: investigator Paul Holes, we were able to do this without

520
00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:39,240
Speaker 1: seeking the legal authority in terms of getting the federal

521
00:35:39,239 --> 00:35:41,759
Speaker 1: grand jury subpoena or the search warrant that we would

522
00:35:41,840 --> 00:35:44,840
Speaker 1: need if we wanted to search the other types of

523
00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:49,279
Speaker 1: genealogy sites. Jetmatch users submit DNA profiles they buy from

524
00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:51,960
Speaker 1: sites like ancestry, dot com and twenty three and me.

525
00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:55,920
Speaker 1: They plug their data for free into Jetmatch, searching for

526
00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:59,920
Speaker 1: distant relatives. Within days, investigators found distant cousins of the

527
00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:03,640
Speaker 1: suspected Golden State killer. We literally went back to the

528
00:36:03,719 --> 00:36:07,960
Speaker 1: great great great grandfather with individuals that were born in

529
00:36:08,160 --> 00:36:12,080
Speaker 1: the early part of the eighteen hundreds. I've had Paul

530
00:36:12,160 --> 00:36:15,160
Speaker 1: holl the detective on that case. One of them explained

531
00:36:15,160 --> 00:36:20,000
Speaker 1: it to me. It's very, very involved. But how did

532
00:36:20,040 --> 00:36:26,000
Speaker 1: they get DeAngelo's DNA listen Our cut two CBSMs. It

533
00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:29,480
Speaker 1: took four months to identify DeAngelo as a likely suspect,

534
00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:32,719
Speaker 1: but to prove it, investigators followed him to collect his

535
00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:36,680
Speaker 1: DNA from something he threw away. District attorney and Marie

536
00:36:36,719 --> 00:36:39,239
Speaker 1: Schubert it could be he left a tissue. Who could

537
00:36:39,239 --> 00:36:42,320
Speaker 1: be that he put his hands on a door handle,

538
00:36:42,480 --> 00:36:45,200
Speaker 1: but it was what I call a bandoned DNA. That

539
00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:48,560
Speaker 1: abandoned DNA solved a forty four year old mystery in

540
00:36:48,680 --> 00:36:52,160
Speaker 1: four months, but also raises concerns about the privacy of

541
00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:55,800
Speaker 1: DNA collection. Isn't it almost certain that a defense attorney

542
00:36:55,920 --> 00:37:00,200
Speaker 1: is going to call this an illegal search? We would expect,

543
00:37:00,239 --> 00:37:03,160
Speaker 1: we anticipated, We're fully prepared to deal with that through

544
00:37:03,160 --> 00:37:07,120
Speaker 1: the court process. Jed Match says law enforcement never approached them.

545
00:37:07,239 --> 00:37:09,879
Speaker 1: In a statement, jed match tells users, if you are

546
00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:14,120
Speaker 1: concerned about non genealogical uses of your DNA, you should

547
00:37:14,120 --> 00:37:18,960
Speaker 1: not upload your DNA to the database. Under the inspiration

548
00:37:19,200 --> 00:37:24,240
Speaker 1: of the Golden State Killer case movement, in the case

549
00:37:24,320 --> 00:37:28,560
Speaker 1: of Mary Jane Thompson listened to our friends WGRZ In

550
00:37:28,640 --> 00:37:33,680
Speaker 1: twenty twenty, forensic genetic genealogy analysis was done sixty year

551
00:37:33,719 --> 00:37:38,319
Speaker 1: old Edward Morgan's DNA matched the unidentified profile from the

552
00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:44,080
Speaker 1: swab taken in the nineteen eighty four autopsy, and on Friday,

553
00:37:44,480 --> 00:37:48,720
Speaker 1: Morgan was arrested and charged with capital murder, a person

554
00:37:49,000 --> 00:37:52,800
Speaker 1: the family says is unfamiliar to them, but he lived

555
00:37:53,160 --> 00:37:56,520
Speaker 1: right near the crime scene. In fact, as I said,

556
00:37:56,520 --> 00:37:59,120
Speaker 1: and look out my office window right now, I can

557
00:37:59,160 --> 00:38:01,759
Speaker 1: not only see the area where the crimes he was,

558
00:38:01,800 --> 00:38:05,680
Speaker 1: It's only about a mile from my office, but you know,

559
00:38:05,880 --> 00:38:08,360
Speaker 1: our suspect lived about just a mile further past that.

560
00:38:09,120 --> 00:38:11,040
Speaker 1: And to think, all this time working on the case

561
00:38:11,239 --> 00:38:14,400
Speaker 1: and he was just right into our nose, right under

562
00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:18,800
Speaker 1: their nose. This guy take a listen to Steve Pickett,

563
00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:23,719
Speaker 1: CBS eleven. Nearly thirty eight years an unsolved murder. A

564
00:38:23,880 --> 00:38:28,120
Speaker 1: Dallas woman killed, her body found behind a warehouse tonight

565
00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:33,280
Speaker 1: decades later and arrest. The Dallas County District Attorney's office

566
00:38:33,320 --> 00:38:36,719
Speaker 1: has this man, Edward Morgan, now in custody. He has

567
00:38:36,800 --> 00:38:40,800
Speaker 1: charged with capital murder for the death of Mary Jane Thompson.

568
00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:44,840
Speaker 1: She was killed back in nineteen eighty four. Thompson's body

569
00:38:44,920 --> 00:38:48,520
Speaker 1: was actually found on the Irving Boulevard. Investigators say she

570
00:38:48,640 --> 00:38:52,279
Speaker 1: was also sexually assaulted so back in two thousand and nine,

571
00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:56,799
Speaker 1: Dallas Police reopened the unsolved case with DNA testing from

572
00:38:56,880 --> 00:39:02,880
Speaker 1: swabs taken during the victim's autopsy. They identified male DNA

573
00:39:03,000 --> 00:39:06,160
Speaker 1: but never had a match until new technology led to

574
00:39:06,160 --> 00:39:09,120
Speaker 1: the arrest of this man, mister Morgan. He is now

575
00:39:09,239 --> 00:39:12,040
Speaker 1: sixty years of age. He is also now in the

576
00:39:12,120 --> 00:39:17,240
Speaker 1: Dallas County Jail on one count of capital murder. Capital murder.

577
00:39:17,280 --> 00:39:19,120
Speaker 1: That means there is a chance to see the death

578
00:39:19,120 --> 00:39:24,160
Speaker 1: penalty to Shara. The point joining us genetic genealogists what

579
00:39:24,560 --> 00:39:29,040
Speaker 1: happened Sharah. We didn't have an eyewitness in this case, Nancy,

580
00:39:30,120 --> 00:39:32,799
Speaker 1: but we had something much more important than that. We

581
00:39:32,960 --> 00:39:37,640
Speaker 1: had genetic witnesses. That DNA that was taken at that

582
00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:42,160
Speaker 1: autopsy can now be put in the site that we

583
00:39:42,360 --> 00:39:47,160
Speaker 1: use for genealogy purposes, and we can find relatives of

584
00:39:47,200 --> 00:39:53,840
Speaker 1: the perpetrator. We can work on finding the common ancestors

585
00:39:53,880 --> 00:39:56,680
Speaker 1: and build a family tree, just like you would do

586
00:39:56,760 --> 00:40:01,759
Speaker 1: for an adoptee, and find the person who may have

587
00:40:01,920 --> 00:40:06,200
Speaker 1: been responsible for this crime, someone who've lived in the area,

588
00:40:06,719 --> 00:40:10,040
Speaker 1: someone who may have been the right age a male.

589
00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:13,359
Speaker 1: Of course, it takes a lot of work. It takes

590
00:40:13,360 --> 00:40:21,160
Speaker 1: a lot of manpower. It takes collaboration between law enforcements, labs, genealogists,

591
00:40:21,280 --> 00:40:25,279
Speaker 1: but the tool is amazing. Thirty eight years later they

592
00:40:25,360 --> 00:40:28,879
Speaker 1: found who did this crime. Without this tool, I doubt

593
00:40:28,880 --> 00:40:31,520
Speaker 1: that it could have been found here referring to quote

594
00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:35,640
Speaker 1: this tool, Well, what are you talking about, Sia, I'm

595
00:40:35,680 --> 00:40:40,080
Speaker 1: talking about genetic genealogy. I'm talking about talking about using

596
00:40:40,719 --> 00:40:46,320
Speaker 1: autosomal DNA testing from direct to consumer test like Ancestry

597
00:40:46,400 --> 00:40:51,960
Speaker 1: twenty three and meat family tree DNA, using that along

598
00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:59,680
Speaker 1: with traditional genealogy tools like birth certificate. Since this records

599
00:41:00,120 --> 00:41:05,600
Speaker 1: put it all together. Once you find these common ancestors

600
00:41:06,160 --> 00:41:11,040
Speaker 1: amongst the DNA matches of the perpetrator, you build a

601
00:41:11,080 --> 00:41:16,719
Speaker 1: tree and you find who's who's responsible. And now he

602
00:41:17,600 --> 00:41:23,200
Speaker 1: Edward Morgan is sitting behind bars awaiting trial. And now

603
00:41:23,440 --> 00:41:27,879
Speaker 1: Mary Jane's sister speaks out. Thirty eight years went by

604
00:41:28,000 --> 00:41:32,120
Speaker 1: without an arrest. Thirty eight years Mary Jane's sister will

605
00:41:32,120 --> 00:41:34,560
Speaker 1: never forget Yeah, for her life to be end, it's

606
00:41:34,600 --> 00:41:39,840
Speaker 1: so fast and so look. No, before he made a

607
00:41:39,920 --> 00:41:42,640
Speaker 1: chance to become a mother, I mean he took it

608
00:41:42,680 --> 00:41:48,680
Speaker 1: away from her. We wait as justice unfalls. Nancy Grace

609
00:41:48,719 --> 00:41:51,080
Speaker 1: Crimes story, signing off goodbye friend,