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Speaker 1: He armstrong and Yetty.

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Speaker 2: I remember why Tim the lawyer's name came up yesterday

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Speaker 2: we're talking about that amazing story of that poor guy.

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Speaker 2: Sheh and his wife are at a Disney property.

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Speaker 1: He says that they.

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Speaker 2: Told the waiter, look, my wife has peanut allergy or

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Speaker 2: fruit allergy or something like that really bad. So we

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Speaker 2: got we can't have anything that's touchingnuts or whatever. Anyway,

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Speaker 2: she ends up getting some food that's got the allergic

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Speaker 2: stuff in it, and she dies. She actually dies at

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Speaker 2: one of these Disney properties. So he's looking into suing.

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Speaker 2: Not for very much money. It was a fifty five

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Speaker 2: thousand dollars, so it's not like one of those you know,

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Speaker 2: you owe me ten million dollar things. But anyway, found

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Speaker 2: out that because he had Disney Plus like I do,

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Speaker 2: like you do, like everybody watched the Mandalorian does, because

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Speaker 2: he signed up for Disney Plus and clicked I agree

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Speaker 2: on the agreement thing at ten thirty at night once

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Speaker 2: without reading a word of the agreement. He had agreed

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Speaker 2: to no trials by jury that go after Disney in

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Speaker 2: any way whatsoever I did. I agreed to that by

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Speaker 2: watching Disney Place. Who knew that? And just all these

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Speaker 2: agreements that we all click on every single week on

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Speaker 2: something we haven't got the slightest idea what's in there

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Speaker 2: that needs to be fixed.

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Speaker 3: That just one of several.

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Speaker 4: Topics we can't wait to discuss with Tim Sanderfurr, vice

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Speaker 4: president for Legal Affairs at the Goldwater Institute, author of

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Speaker 4: a number of fabulous tomes, including, and this will come

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Speaker 4: up in a little while, the right to earn a living,

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Speaker 4: which is all about economic freedom.

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Speaker 3: Tim, welcome, How are you, sir?

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Speaker 5: I'm just fine, Thanks for having me back.

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Speaker 1: Is there some course?

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Speaker 2: Is there some sort of way we can do away

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Speaker 2: with these agreements that we all click on that are

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Speaker 2: one hundred pagees long, and we'd have to hire a

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Speaker 2: lawyer and spend a lot of money to figure out

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Speaker 2: what the hell they mean.

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Speaker 5: Well, so, the legal term for that kind of a

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Speaker 5: contract that they call it a contract of adhesion, which

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Speaker 5: is when somebody holds out this document says take it

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Speaker 5: or leave it. Just if you want the thing, you

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Speaker 5: got to agree to it. There's no negotiation, just go

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Speaker 5: with it. And judges tend to be pretty skeptical of

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Speaker 5: contracts of adhesion because it is a dangerous kind of

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Speaker 5: situation where a person might not know what they're getting

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Speaker 5: into when they sign the agreement. And so I think

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Speaker 5: if you were to try and argue, as Disney is,

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Speaker 5: arguing that because you agreed to a completely different service,

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Speaker 5: one that had nothing to do with the injury that

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Speaker 5: actually occurred, because you agreed to arbitration there, now you

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Speaker 5: can't have a trial over here for this other thing,

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Speaker 5: I honestly think that's a hard argument to persuade a judge.

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Speaker 5: And now, of course it depends on the state. California

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Speaker 5: courts are very hostile to arbitration. They really don't like

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Speaker 5: the idea that you can be required to go to

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Speaker 5: arbitration instead of a court of law. But there are

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Speaker 5: lots of advantages to arbitration, including for people who are

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Speaker 5: suing a business. Arbitration is faster, it's overseen by people

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Speaker 5: who are knowledgeable legal you know, judges and lawyers who

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Speaker 5: know what they're doing and tend to be experts in

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Speaker 5: like personal injury and business and things like this, whereas

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Speaker 5: a jury is made up of just the twelve people

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Speaker 5: who showed up for jury duty that day. So there

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Speaker 5: are advantages to going by through arbitration, but forcing somebody

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Speaker 5: into arbitrations because they agreed to a completely different service

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Speaker 5: at a completely different time by a boilerplate contract of adhesion.

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Speaker 5: I think judges are going to be really skeptical of

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Speaker 5: that attempt.

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Speaker 1: Joe used the example yesterday.

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Speaker 3: I was about to lay that out.

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Speaker 4: I was going to say, my daughter has just started

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Speaker 4: law school, has already learned, well, she's actually working in

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Speaker 4: the law for several years.

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Speaker 3: That it depends is the all purpose answer for every question.

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Speaker 1: It's legal.

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Speaker 4: But the idea that I would I would get Disney

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Speaker 4: Plus to watch the Mandalorian. Then I go to Disneyland

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Speaker 4: and Goofy beats me into Wacoma with a steel rod,

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Speaker 4: and that's not actionable because I signed that.

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Speaker 3: That's to pay where that happens, I guess.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, Well, for one thing, you cannot waive your liability

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Speaker 5: for intentional or reckless harm. So Disney is not allowed

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Speaker 5: to say you're never allowed to sue us if Goofy

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Speaker 5: beats you up with a metal rock.

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Speaker 1: Oh good.

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Speaker 5: They can require you to go to arbitration instead of

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Speaker 5: a legal court. If you have a dispute over Disney

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Speaker 5: Plus as part of the user agreement, and you do

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Speaker 5: have what lawyers call the duty to read before clicking

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Speaker 5: the button. It is you are legally bound by these things,

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Speaker 5: and you have to be honest because otherwise modern industry

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Speaker 5: would collapse.

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Speaker 1: Duty to read. But so like you, you don't have kids.

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Speaker 2: But if you had kids, you go to the jumpatorium

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Speaker 2: like I do, or they jump on the trampolines and

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Speaker 2: you have to sign a waiver before your kid can

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Speaker 2: jump on the trampoline. And you go over to the

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Speaker 2: waiver and it's like thirty pages long, and I and

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Speaker 2: every other parent there just scroll to the bottom clicks

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Speaker 2: I agree, and your kids put on their socks and

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Speaker 2: they go jump. As a lawyer, would you read all

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Speaker 2: that stuff or what would you do?

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Speaker 5: You absolutely have to read all this now, I will

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Speaker 5: say there's actually a case directly on that issue from

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Speaker 5: New Jersey from a few years ago where the kid

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Speaker 5: wanted to go to the skateboard park. Mom goes, takes

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Speaker 5: the kid to the skateboard park. They require him to sign.

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Speaker 5: The parent to sign this waiver, and the court said

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Speaker 5: that the waiver was not binding because you cannot expect

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Speaker 5: a parent to resist the begging of a child. Well,

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Speaker 5: it's so ludicrous. It's like oh, I don't have any

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Speaker 5: responsibility at all because I can't control my kids.

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Speaker 4: No, you don't understand. It's the begging doctrine goes back centrist.

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Speaker 4: So I'm picturing tim I'm picturing the alternative. There we

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Speaker 4: are at the jumpatorium, and I'm reading this pages of contract.

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Speaker 3: Now, I say, oh wow.

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Speaker 4: Sun, paragraph thirteen highly problemly, give me a second. Here,

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Speaker 4: I bust out my cell phone. I called her legal department. Oh,

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Speaker 4: some turns out there a subsidiary of paramount Attractions. Anyway,

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Speaker 4: I need legal police, your legal department. Yeah, wait, thank

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Speaker 4: you very much. Then you know an hour later, yeah, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 4: paragraphs thirteen specifically, you'll get back to me.

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Speaker 3: Okay, all right, son, we've got to wait a while.

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Speaker 2: I mean, come on, we're going to go go back

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Speaker 2: home because I am not happy with fourteen C. I mean,

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Speaker 2: that's just so, that's so unrealizing. You just said you've

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Speaker 2: got to read that stuff. Nobody's ever going to do that.

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Speaker 2: Timo's imposs yack.

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Speaker 5: You know what they call that deck, They call that

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Speaker 5: responsible citizenship. That that's your obligation when you're handed a

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Speaker 5: big contract to read it before you sign it. So

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Speaker 5: you know what you're doing.

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Speaker 1: So this is this nothing?

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Speaker 2: Well, you're you're a libertarian, So this is one of

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Speaker 2: the reasons your name came up yesterday. I was thinking,

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Speaker 2: so is this a free market solution in theory that

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Speaker 2: we parents would not click I agree, and we would

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Speaker 2: not jump there, And so the jumpaitorium across the street

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Speaker 2: that doesn't have such a long agreement thing would get

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Speaker 2: more business? Is that the only hope.

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Speaker 5: That the answer is mostly yes. Now, the reason why

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Speaker 5: it's not entirely yes is because, as I said, you

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Speaker 5: cannot waive your liability for reckless or intentional harm to somebody.

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Speaker 5: So you cannot put into that contract I'm allowed to

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Speaker 5: shoot you in the head or something, you know, but

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Speaker 5: you can waive liability for an accident. I mean, that's

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Speaker 5: everybody knows that there are risks associated with thing, and

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Speaker 5: and the person who chooses that has to bear that.

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Speaker 1: Well, yeah, it's funny.

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Speaker 2: I'm on both sides of this issue, actually, because the

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Speaker 2: reason they need to have those long legal agreements is

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Speaker 2: because of stupid rulings that have come out. And yes,

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Speaker 2: my kids jumping on a trampoline and sometimes when you

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Speaker 2: jump on a trampoline you break your arm, and it's

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Speaker 2: not the fault of the damn business. It's just something

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Speaker 2: that comes with jumping on trampoline. So you shouldn't be all.

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Speaker 5: Alternative to the alternative to letting businesses wave their liability

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Speaker 5: is you don't get trampolines at all.

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Speaker 1: Right, right, right, right?

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Speaker 4: So then if if Goofy were to beat me down

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Speaker 4: with a metal rod, that's one case. If Dumbo, for instance,

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Speaker 4: saw a mouse and panicked and trampled me, that that

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Speaker 4: would be entirely different.

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Speaker 5: It would be an entirely different matter, because it depends.

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Speaker 5: Now here's another important point is that a lot of

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Speaker 5: time I mentioned California cups really hate arbitration, and the

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Speaker 5: reason why is because they tend to think that arbitration

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Speaker 5: favors the evil big business and that's bad and we

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Speaker 5: need to protect people against evil big business. And yet

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Speaker 5: the same people who are hostiles of arbitration are often

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Speaker 5: perfectly fine with administrative agencies holding hearings of their own.

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Speaker 5: Where they are the people in the government agency is

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Speaker 5: the judge as well as the prosecutor. They're perfectly fine

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Speaker 5: to that. They don't see that as unfair. They just

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Speaker 5: see arbitration is unfair. That's really inconsistent and drives me crazy.

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Speaker 3: Well, that's because they don't have principles.

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Speaker 4: They take on and put on and take off their

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Speaker 4: principles like windbreakers on the left. It's in a third

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Speaker 4: of California law, as you know, exists to enriched trial attorneys.

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Speaker 4: But Tim Sandafer of the Goldwater Institute joins us. Tim

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Speaker 4: has been a leading voice of economic freedom for decades

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Speaker 4: now in the United States.

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Speaker 3: We're all getting old. Tim, I don't know if you've noticed.

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Speaker 4: Help us understand why this policy of ending corporate greed

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Speaker 4: and gouging is so stupid.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, it really is stupid, and it is incredibly counterproductive.

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Speaker 5: Price controls equal shortages. And the reason why is because

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Speaker 5: you have to understand how prices work. People have this

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Speaker 5: idea that prices are just sort of arbitrarily slapped on

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Speaker 5: things and that it's just greedy people putting numbers on things,

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Speaker 5: and that's not what prices actually are. Prices are signals.

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Speaker 5: When you see a price tag, think of it as

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Speaker 5: something like the sphedometer in your car. It's just measuring something,

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Speaker 5: that's all. It's not somebody trying to rip you off.

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Speaker 5: It's telling you how much resources how much work, how

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Speaker 5: much raw materials and things go into a product as

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Speaker 5: compared to the other things that the labor or raw

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Speaker 5: materials could have been used for. That's all a price is.

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Speaker 5: So when a price goes up and then you come

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Speaker 5: in with the government and prohibit people from charging what

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Speaker 5: the thing actually costs, all you're doing is silencing that signal,

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Speaker 5: which causes confusion throughout the entire economy and has terrible

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Speaker 5: ripple effects. And it is absolutely true that you cannot

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Speaker 5: just control the price of one thing. If you try

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Speaker 5: to control the price of one thing, then people are

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Speaker 5: going to turn the resources into some other thing, and

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Speaker 5: then you have to control the price of that also. So,

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Speaker 5: for instance, if you were to try to limit the

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Speaker 5: price that milk could could be sold at, the dairies

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Speaker 5: are not going to make back the money that they

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Speaker 5: need to keep operating if they sell milk, so instead

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Speaker 5: they'll start making cheese and they'll start charging more for

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Speaker 5: the cheese. So then you have to control the price

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Speaker 5: of cheese. So then they start making yogurt, So now

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Speaker 5: you've got to control the price of yogurt. And it

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Speaker 5: keeps going on and on like that. So it's a

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Speaker 5: terrible idea that causes shortages because if I don't know

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Speaker 5: that I can make a whole bunch of money by

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Speaker 5: making them selling plywood, then I'm not going to make

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Speaker 5: and sell the plywood. And now people can't get the plywood.

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Speaker 5: And the reason why is because I didn't get the

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Speaker 5: signal because the government prohibited people from telling the truth

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Speaker 5: about what the prices are. And that's that's all price

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Speaker 5: controls are is It inrohibits people from telling the truth

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Speaker 5: about what things actually cost. And the reason the government

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Speaker 5: does that is because it's the one at fault for

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Speaker 5: raising the prices to begin with, and it doesn't want

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Speaker 5: people to know that, so it tries to silence it

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Speaker 5: by blaming businesses for charge what things are actually worth

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Speaker 5: when the government is the one responsible for making your

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Speaker 5: dollars worth less to begin with.

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Speaker 4: Well, and it's one hundred or maybe ten thousand times

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Speaker 4: more complicated, as anybody who's ever read eye pencil could

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Speaker 4: tell you. Because that dairy farmer that you used as

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Speaker 4: an example, what if all of their costs stay the same,

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Speaker 4: but because of some sort of shock in oil prices,

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Speaker 4: the trucks that bring their milk to market become much

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Speaker 4: much more expensive to use. Then the government is involved

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Speaker 4: in trucking prices and shipping prices, and soon gasoline prices

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Speaker 4: and the rest of it. It's doomed, and everybody actually right, Yeah,

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Speaker 4: you know, I offered up a paraphrasing of your explanation

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Speaker 4: of why gouging quote unquote gouging is not a bad thing.

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Speaker 4: I use the example of chain saws after a hurricane,

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Speaker 4: but I wasn't nearly as eloquent or knowledgeable as you

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Speaker 4: would be.

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Speaker 3: Can you give us the thirty second version of that?

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Speaker 5: All that the prices do, when the prices go up

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Speaker 5: and people start charging one hundred dollars to use a

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Speaker 5: chainsaw because of the hurricane, all.

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Speaker 3: That does is signal.

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Speaker 5: But there's a lot of demand for hurricanes, a lot

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Speaker 5: of demands for chainsaw, and so all the chainsaw companies

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Speaker 5: see that signal and they're like, oh gosh, we need

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Speaker 5: to ship a whole bunch of chain saws down to

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Speaker 5: Florida or whatever. So then they do. Now, if you

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Speaker 5: prohibit that, if you prohibit people from sending that signal,

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Speaker 5: if you silence the truth about prices, which is what

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Speaker 5: price controls do, then the chainsaw companies never see that message.

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Speaker 5: They might as well sell their chainsaws in Nebraska or

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Speaker 5: Washington State. So you got a whole bunch of chainsaws

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Speaker 5: in Nebraska and washingtons in state, and you don't get

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Speaker 5: them down in Florida, where you actually need them, because

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Speaker 5: the prices weren't allowed to go up, so nobody got

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Speaker 5: the signal that that's where they need to send their chainsaws.

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Speaker 5: This it's a simple matter, but it gets obscured because

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Speaker 5: politicians want to fool you into thinking that businesses are

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Speaker 5: evil and greedy when they're the ones that are out

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Speaker 5: there printing money as if it's no problem at all

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Speaker 5: making all of your dollars worth less, which means people

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Speaker 5: have to charge more to get what things are worth.

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Speaker 5: And then the government doesn't want to admit that it's

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Speaker 5: the one at fault. Harris, for example, having been the

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Speaker 5: tie breaking vote in favor of the Print the Money Act,

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Speaker 5: and so she wants to confuse people about that by

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Speaker 5: blaming businesses and silencing the truth about price.

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Speaker 2: You know, that's one of many economic principles that the

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Speaker 2: first time I ever heard, I was like, oh, okay,

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Speaker 2: and that makes one hundred.

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Speaker 1: Percent sense and changed my mind completely.

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Speaker 2: It troubles me that a lot of this stuff polls

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Speaker 2: so well, the punishing, gouging or whatever.

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Speaker 5: Unfortunately, government gets away with it all the time. You

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Speaker 5: asked about whether it's legal, and I'm sorry to say

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Speaker 5: that courts have allowed various forms of price controls since

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Speaker 5: at least eighteen seventy six. So unfortunately, there are ways

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Speaker 5: that the government can do this for Just take one

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Speaker 5: example is so called march in right. This is a

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Speaker 5: provision in federal patent law that says that if the

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Speaker 5: government decides it wants to, it can allow some other

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Speaker 5: company to use your patent without your approval. And most recently,

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Speaker 5: the Biden administration is proposed using this power to impose

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Speaker 5: price controls by saying, well, this is medicine costs too much.

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Speaker 5: We're just going to base we eliminate the patent rights. Well,

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Speaker 5: if you eliminate the patent rights, nobody's going to invest

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Speaker 5: money in developing new kinds of medicine. What a terrible idea,

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Speaker 5: truly killing the golden goose. And yet that is being

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Speaker 5: put forward as modern advanced economic thinking by a bunch

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Speaker 5: of people who would shrunk basic economics if they had

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Speaker 5: ever bothered to take it.

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Speaker 4: Well, We'll be looking to pummel these ideas with both

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Speaker 4: of our fists, all four of our fists, in the

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Speaker 4: days and weeks to come, and we hope we can

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Speaker 4: stay in touch.

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Speaker 1: Tim.

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Speaker 4: This is it's frustrating me that a lot of this

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Speaker 4: is not counterintuitive, but it takes a while to explain

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Speaker 4: to people. Once you do, the light bulb goes on

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Speaker 4: and it's very easily understood. But for whatever reason, it

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Speaker 4: takes a little explaining and that's tough in politics. But

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Speaker 4: great to talk to you, Tim.

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Speaker 3: Thanks a million, thanks guys.

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Speaker 4: Tim Sander for our vice president for Legal Affairs at

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Speaker 4: the Goldwater Institute.

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Speaker 3: Look for his books and read them. They're terrific.

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Speaker 2: That explanation for why gouging is good in an emergency

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Speaker 2: for instance, like that, you know, changed my mind instantly.

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Speaker 1: It's like, oh, yeah, that makes perfectly good sense.

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Speaker 2: Really thought about it since same as when my dad

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Speaker 2: explained to me, well, socialism doesn't work as socialism sounded

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Speaker 2: good to me as a child when I was like ten,

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Speaker 2: And then he said, but then nobody would work very

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Speaker 2: hard if everybody gets the same result.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, you're right, And then that.

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Speaker 2: Was it, and I would just wish we could get

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Speaker 2: that information out to more people.

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Speaker 4: Oh when Joe Getty Academy's open coast to coast to

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Speaker 4: educate your youngsters. That's lesson number one enroll now Armstrong

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Speaker 4: and Getty