WEBVTT - It Could Happen Here Weekly 120 0:00:01.840 --> 0:00:03.120 Also media. 0:00:03.400 --> 0:00:05.800 Hey everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let 0:00:05.880 --> 0:00:09.480 you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode 0:00:09.640 --> 0:00:12.559 of the week that just happened is here in one 0:00:12.640 --> 0:00:16.400 convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to 0:00:16.440 --> 0:00:18.880 listen to in a long stretch if you want. If 0:00:18.920 --> 0:00:20.840 you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, 0:00:20.880 --> 0:00:23.079 there's gonna be nothing new here for you, but you 0:00:23.120 --> 0:00:24.360 can make your own decisions. 0:00:26.840 --> 0:00:30.240 Welcome, We could happen. Wow, Okay, we're just both doing 0:00:30.280 --> 0:00:33.080 the intro all right. I wanted to be the intro. 0:00:33.200 --> 0:00:36.160 I was saying that wokness has won the Super Bowl. 0:00:36.720 --> 0:00:42.080 Ah, because okay, okay, hold on, this is my this 0:00:42.159 --> 0:00:44.080 is this is my moment. I've got the soapbox, this 0:00:44.120 --> 0:00:47.120 is it could happen here. Everyone has the Taylor Swift conspiracy. 0:00:47.159 --> 0:00:47.400 Wrong. 0:00:47.760 --> 0:00:51.120 Taylor Swift is completely uninvolved in the NFL's conspiracy to 0:00:51.120 --> 0:00:53.680 make sure Patrick Mahomes wins every fucking game. All of 0:00:53.720 --> 0:00:57.160 these fucking all these fucking bogged chuds or fucking Johnny 0:00:57.160 --> 0:00:59.920 come Late doesn't care about football fans. Real fans know 0:01:00.240 --> 0:01:02.600 if you look at every fourth quarter of every fucking 0:01:02.680 --> 0:01:05.200 Chiefs game before Taylor should have got involved. It looks 0:01:05.240 --> 0:01:08.000 exactly the same. All right, this has been it can 0:01:08.040 --> 0:01:09.560 happen here. We may or may not cut that. 0:01:09.760 --> 0:01:13.880 I can't believe that the liberal Taylor Swift, Joe Biden's 0:01:13.920 --> 0:01:19.919 puppet Taylor Swift and Travis Peiser Kelsey stole the Super 0:01:19.959 --> 0:01:24.959 Bowl from the good Christian people of San Francisco, the 0:01:25.000 --> 0:01:27.880 only bashtate of conservatism left in this country. 0:01:28.120 --> 0:01:31.959 It is so incredibly funny, Like, okay, so it's so 0:01:32.080 --> 0:01:34.480 curtly funny to me, A that they're not mad at 0:01:34.520 --> 0:01:40.840 Patrick Mahomes and b that somehow okay, the Chiefs, Like, 0:01:40.920 --> 0:01:44.080 imagine you're a Chiefs fan, right, you have been for 0:01:44.160 --> 0:01:48.760 like thirty years racist, you have been doing a cult 0:01:49.040 --> 0:01:52.680 and I quote the Tomahawk chop, like you are the 0:01:52.680 --> 0:01:56.600 most racist person in your entire small town. And then 0:01:56.760 --> 0:01:59.800 all of these fucking dipshits online, all these fucking right 0:02:00.080 --> 0:02:02.480 dipshits immediately and like all of you guys are like 0:02:02.560 --> 0:02:05.960 fucking pussy woke libs. And it's just like, like, imagine 0:02:06.000 --> 0:02:08.920 being that racist for that long only to be immediately 0:02:08.960 --> 0:02:09.800 tossed aside. 0:02:10.440 --> 0:02:13.920 It is kind of baffling that in like the country's 0:02:14.000 --> 0:02:19.200 national divorce overwokeness. Somehow the Liberals get to keep football 0:02:19.680 --> 0:02:23.520 like this is that's so bizarre that that now football 0:02:23.560 --> 0:02:26.079 is seen as like a liberal cuck thing to enjoy 0:02:26.160 --> 0:02:31.840 among the largest swaths of of Republicans, at least at 0:02:31.919 --> 0:02:33.280 least online Republicans. 0:02:33.600 --> 0:02:36.400 It's really funny, fascinating. This is how we're going to 0:02:36.480 --> 0:02:38.880 beat them in the fucking civil war because we're going 0:02:38.919 --> 0:02:41.120 to take the college campuses, which means that we're going 0:02:41.160 --> 0:02:43.920 to have the only watchable footballs. These bastards are going 0:02:43.960 --> 0:02:47.160 to be reduced to watching fucking high school games. Like speaking, 0:02:47.360 --> 0:02:51.440 speaking of watching football. Yeah, so the thing this episode 0:02:51.480 --> 0:02:54.080 is actually about is if you watch the Super Bowl 0:02:54.200 --> 0:02:56.640 or like, God help you, you've tried to use YouTube 0:02:56.680 --> 0:02:58.880 without an ad blocker, a thing I do not recommend 0:02:58.960 --> 0:03:03.359 at all. You have seen ads for Temu with it's 0:03:03.440 --> 0:03:09.200 TMU or Temu Temu. Okay, yeah, it has the absolute 0:03:09.480 --> 0:03:20.360 the absolutely oh good god, yeah, this this app This 0:03:20.440 --> 0:03:23.720 one This one's bad, folks, This one's I I went 0:03:23.800 --> 0:03:27.800 insane and have been spiraling for like two weeks now 0:03:28.240 --> 0:03:31.799 writing this, so you know. So it has the absolutely 0:03:31.800 --> 0:03:34.480 dog shit tagline shop like a billionaire. 0:03:34.840 --> 0:03:39.720 Wait, that's its tagline. Yeah, oh that's weird. 0:03:40.120 --> 0:03:44.000 It's funny. The everything is they only have one ad, righty, 0:03:46.800 --> 0:03:48.360 it's not just super Bowl like it's It's been on 0:03:48.400 --> 0:03:51.160 YouTube for like ages. But yeah, so this begs the 0:03:51.160 --> 0:03:55.040 obvious question, what on earth is this thing? And the 0:03:55.120 --> 0:03:58.200 answer is that Temu is the American version of a 0:03:58.280 --> 0:04:02.160 Chinese shopping app called pindu. You will hear people pronouncing 0:04:02.160 --> 0:04:06.760 it pin duo duo. That's because they're hacks and frauds. 0:04:07.720 --> 0:04:09.960 So but I'm just gonna call it so. The company, 0:04:10.080 --> 0:04:13.320 the parent company for both Temu and Pindua Doua, changed 0:04:13.360 --> 0:04:15.240 their name to PDD, so I'm just gonna call it 0:04:15.280 --> 0:04:20.239 that two. So yeah, PDD is China's worst tech giant. 0:04:20.760 --> 0:04:23.200 They have worked multiple of their employees to death. They 0:04:23.240 --> 0:04:29.440 probably also use slave labor. Those are unrelated stories. So today, 0:04:29.760 --> 0:04:32.200 welcome to the abyss. This is the story of Tamu. 0:04:32.320 --> 0:04:34.560 I have stared into it, and now you motherfuckers are 0:04:34.600 --> 0:04:36.440 coming with me and staring into it some more. 0:04:36.880 --> 0:04:39.120 Well, it's more like we're listening into it because it 0:04:39.120 --> 0:04:39.640 doesn't really have. 0:04:39.640 --> 0:04:43.840 A visual No, no, you're staring into it. Okay, you 0:04:44.040 --> 0:04:47.440 you will get visuals. I will say to this bullshit, 0:04:49.040 --> 0:04:53.800 I will I will start hallucinating in my office. Yeah. 0:04:53.839 --> 0:04:58.680 So Timuo is the American version of PDD. PDD it 0:04:58.839 --> 0:05:03.920 roughly translates two together more savings together, so it's like 0:05:03.960 --> 0:05:14.360 a co op. Actually, it probably sells stuff from co ops. Okay, huh. 0:05:14.760 --> 0:05:19.280 So PDD is the second largest shopping app in China 0:05:19.360 --> 0:05:23.320 behind Ali Baba. Alibaba is China's like version of Amazon. Basically, 0:05:23.440 --> 0:05:27.760 they're the second largest app. Ali Baba reportedly has eight 0:05:27.839 --> 0:05:32.120 hundred and sixty sixty three million users per year. That's 0:05:32.160 --> 0:05:35.120 a lot of users. Yeah, that's that's multiple us is. 0:05:35.480 --> 0:05:38.400 PDD has been claiming that they have seven hundred and 0:05:38.440 --> 0:05:42.560 forty million monthly users. It's unclear if that's exactly true, 0:05:42.600 --> 0:05:45.440 but it's probably around there, which again, that is twice 0:05:45.480 --> 0:05:48.880 the entire population of the US. So this is a 0:05:49.040 --> 0:05:55.040 fucking unbelievably massive company. And to understand what this what 0:05:55.080 --> 0:05:57.480 this company is, and how it became probably the worst 0:05:57.520 --> 0:05:59.560 of the Chinese tech giants, we have to go back 0:05:59.680 --> 0:06:04.120 to the very beginning. And the very beginning is this 0:06:04.200 --> 0:06:09.000 guy named Colin Huang. Huang is a weird guy. I 0:06:09.000 --> 0:06:11.720 don't know he's he's he's the Chinese version of the 0:06:11.760 --> 0:06:16.960 American tech bro. So he's you know, he's he's a 0:06:17.080 --> 0:06:21.039 recognizable like asshole who started a giant company, but he's 0:06:21.040 --> 0:06:25.560 not exactly the same. So he So he graduates from 0:06:26.160 --> 0:06:28.520 like college in China, and in the early two thousands 0:06:28.520 --> 0:06:30.760 he goes to the University of Wisconsin to get a 0:06:30.760 --> 0:06:33.599 master's degree in computer science, which it like it should 0:06:33.600 --> 0:06:35.839 be illegal for anyone to get degrees in computer science. 0:06:36.800 --> 0:06:39.400 Terrible stuff, zero out of time. I should know how 0:06:39.440 --> 0:06:40.240 to use computers. 0:06:40.560 --> 0:06:42.760 I can't believe you'd be believe in the status legal 0:06:42.800 --> 0:06:44.719 system to prevent people from learning. 0:06:45.640 --> 0:06:49.360 Fin social sanctions. We're going to make it morally illegal. 0:06:49.680 --> 0:06:51.400 You're going to get chased out by people with the 0:06:51.480 --> 0:06:53.279 rocks on the street if you try to type something 0:06:53.279 --> 0:06:55.839 they get to a computer. So okay. So he's at 0:06:55.839 --> 0:06:58.320 the University of Wisconsin, and while he's there, he basically 0:06:58.360 --> 0:07:02.159 like posts his way into becoming the pro basically the 0:07:02.200 --> 0:07:07.000 protegee of Chinese tech billionaire Duan Youngping. This is an 0:07:07.040 --> 0:07:12.640 interesting relationship. Duan is like a very very influential Chinese 0:07:12.680 --> 0:07:15.800 tech tech billionaire. He gets every single article calls him 0:07:15.800 --> 0:07:19.640 the Warren Buffett of China. I I don't fucking know, 0:07:19.680 --> 0:07:21.800 but like you know, for like for examples, like how 0:07:21.800 --> 0:07:24.440 big this guy is like Vivo and like the one 0:07:24.520 --> 0:07:26.760 plus company the mixed phones, those are both like spin 0:07:26.800 --> 0:07:29.760 offs of like things that he built. But yeah, so 0:07:29.880 --> 0:07:32.600 you know, so this is this is an interesting relationship 0:07:32.640 --> 0:07:36.000 for Huang because and it's also interesting because like the 0:07:36.440 --> 0:07:39.080 narrative around Huang and PDDs that they're like these like 0:07:39.160 --> 0:07:41.760 hungry upstarts, like clunging their way up from nothing, and 0:07:41.800 --> 0:07:44.280 they can like go after Ali Baba and the Chinese 0:07:44.280 --> 0:07:47.600 like tech market wars because they're like they're ferocious, they 0:07:47.600 --> 0:07:49.200 have like nothing to lose, and like they're rich and 0:07:49.280 --> 0:07:52.000 fat Ali Baba and like nah, like this guy has 0:07:52.000 --> 0:07:54.400 had the backing of like a bunch of really powerful 0:07:54.480 --> 0:07:59.000 Chinese tech guys, like from the absolute beginning. Another part 0:07:59.040 --> 0:08:02.960 of like the Huang lore is that Dwan like took 0:08:03.040 --> 0:08:06.320 him to this really famous dinner where Warren Buffett was 0:08:06.360 --> 0:08:08.920 offering if if you donated like six hundred and twenty 0:08:08.920 --> 0:08:11.440 thousand dollars a charity, he would like eat dinner with 0:08:11.480 --> 0:08:16.120 you and like talk with you about like finance stuff. 0:08:17.960 --> 0:08:22.000 And so Dwan like buys this thing to go to 0:08:22.040 --> 0:08:24.760 dinner with Warren Buffett and brings Huang with him, and 0:08:25.000 --> 0:08:30.720 he Huang, Who's Who's Huang's the founder of PD again, 0:08:30.800 --> 0:08:34.440 so he gives him credit for like this, this like 0:08:34.559 --> 0:08:37.280 financial wisdom that he got here. Here's just from an 0:08:37.280 --> 0:08:41.520 interview with side Jim. This is a Chinese outlet. What 0:08:41.600 --> 0:08:44.240 Buffett said is actually very simple and can be understood 0:08:44.240 --> 0:08:47.120 by my mother. Perhaps what this meal meant most to 0:08:47.160 --> 0:08:49.560 me was that I realized the power of simplicity and 0:08:49.600 --> 0:08:53.480 common sense. Human thoughts are easily polluted. When you make 0:08:53.480 --> 0:08:56.240 a judgment on something, you need to understand the backgrounds 0:08:56.240 --> 0:09:00.640 and facts. After understanding it, what you need is wisdom, 0:09:00.760 --> 0:09:02.719 but whether you have the courage to use reason when 0:09:02.760 --> 0:09:06.600 facing facts use common sense to judge. Common sense is 0:09:06.640 --> 0:09:09.360 obvious and easy to understand. But our various biases and 0:09:09.440 --> 0:09:13.320 personal interests form due to growth and learning blind us. 0:09:13.840 --> 0:09:17.640 So this is like entrepreneurial bullshit. But you know this 0:09:17.679 --> 0:09:19.960 is apparently this is like a big formative like thing. 0:09:20.120 --> 0:09:22.760 Like ah, he like got the wisdom of word Buffett, 0:09:22.760 --> 0:09:27.200 and he listened to it. It's just like what there's 0:09:27.880 --> 0:09:29.680 the thing I think is more interesting is that he 0:09:29.800 --> 0:09:32.959 talks about what in the same interview what Dwan taught him. 0:09:33.600 --> 0:09:36.040 Dwan also taught me a common sense thing in business. 0:09:36.080 --> 0:09:39.440 Price fluctuates around value. The price will definitely fluctuate, but 0:09:39.480 --> 0:09:42.000 as long as your value increases, the final price will 0:09:42.040 --> 0:09:45.160 be close to the value. This common sense allows you 0:09:45.240 --> 0:09:47.920 to focus on increasing the intrinsic value of the company 0:09:47.960 --> 0:09:50.880 and not be overly concerned about price fluctuations in the 0:09:50.880 --> 0:09:55.320 capital market. And this, to me is fascinating because the 0:09:55.320 --> 0:09:58.439 first half of that is like orthodox Marxist price theory, 0:09:59.160 --> 0:10:01.800 like in like in Marxist price theory, right, the whole 0:10:01.840 --> 0:10:04.280 thing about it is that price is determined by value. 0:10:04.559 --> 0:10:07.000 The value of a commodity is determined by like the 0:10:07.080 --> 0:10:09.280 number the amount of labor hour is socially necessary to 0:10:09.320 --> 0:10:12.960 produce it, and eventually, like price, sort of like fluctuation, 0:10:13.320 --> 0:10:15.600 the price can change. It's not price isn't like identical 0:10:15.640 --> 0:10:19.200 to like socially necessarily like labor time, but it like 0:10:19.240 --> 0:10:21.200 fluctuates abround it. And so that's like the first part 0:10:21.200 --> 0:10:23.520 of it, which is the Marxist thing, except this is 0:10:23.559 --> 0:10:28.880 like China, like modern like twenty twenties China. So Marxist 0:10:28.920 --> 0:10:32.160 value theory has been degraded to like, make your company 0:10:32.240 --> 0:10:35.720 valuable and don't worry about stock prices and market fluctuations. 0:10:35.760 --> 0:10:36.839 It'll work out in the end. 0:10:37.320 --> 0:10:40.800 So true, so true, based based. 0:10:41.520 --> 0:10:44.040 I mean, the funny thing is this is actually better, 0:10:44.840 --> 0:10:49.760 like you get the advice than like most of the 0:10:49.800 --> 0:10:55.240 shit that like American CEOs use. But it's also, oh god, 0:10:55.440 --> 0:10:59.960 what has happened to my poor value theory, my beloved, 0:11:00.120 --> 0:11:02.840 my beloved theory of how capitalism works has been turned 0:11:02.880 --> 0:11:09.040 into this weird tech bullshit, a tragedy. So meanwhile, back 0:11:09.080 --> 0:11:12.199 in two thousand and four, Dwan convinces Hwang to turn 0:11:12.320 --> 0:11:15.160 down a bunch of these jobs. So he's he's like 0:11:15.200 --> 0:11:18.319 a computer science graduate, right, and he's being headhunted by 0:11:18.400 --> 0:11:20.680 like a bunch of the sort of like mainstream tech 0:11:20.679 --> 0:11:23.400 companies at the times, like Oracle, Microsoft, and they're giving 0:11:23.440 --> 0:11:25.240 they want to give him like an enormous amount of money, 0:11:25.720 --> 0:11:28.920 but his mentors like, no, no, no, don't take this 0:11:29.120 --> 0:11:32.360 tech job, take the Silicon Valley tech job. Join Google. 0:11:33.559 --> 0:11:35.920 And so he joins Google. And this is this is 0:11:35.920 --> 0:11:37.760 another like very famous things like ah, he wanted to 0:11:37.840 --> 0:11:40.120 join the like up and coming hungry tech startup. But 0:11:40.160 --> 0:11:43.200 here's the thing, so Google. He joins Google in two 0:11:43.240 --> 0:11:45.280 thousand and four, which is kind of early, but Google 0:11:45.320 --> 0:11:50.400 also goes public that year, so you know, this is 0:11:50.440 --> 0:11:52.200 up working really well for him because he gets a 0:11:52.200 --> 0:11:54.560 bunch of stock options that those stock options are worth 0:11:54.640 --> 0:11:57.040 millions of dollars. That's a lot of Also, some of 0:11:57.040 --> 0:11:59.320 the startup capital for like the later companies he founds 0:11:59.360 --> 0:12:03.880 comes from that. And Huang really quickly like works his 0:12:03.920 --> 0:12:07.800 way up the ranks. But he so he gets put 0:12:07.840 --> 0:12:11.080 in charge of like launching Google in China, and this 0:12:11.200 --> 0:12:14.680 is a fiasco, does not work at all. Huang blames 0:12:14.840 --> 0:12:18.280 like too much oversight from people at the senior leadership 0:12:18.280 --> 0:12:20.320 at Google, which I can get, but I mean it 0:12:20.360 --> 0:12:22.960 just doesn't work at all. Like he starts as at 0:12:22.960 --> 0:12:25.520 two thousand and six. By twenty ten, Google has pulled 0:12:25.520 --> 0:12:27.320 out of China entirely, like they're not they're not trying 0:12:27.320 --> 0:12:29.800 to push the fucking search edge because nobody uses it. 0:12:30.880 --> 0:12:35.840 So okayv having having like unbelievably bombed out of his 0:12:35.880 --> 0:12:39.400 first tech job, he he he does the like entrepreneur thing. 0:12:39.480 --> 0:12:43.640 He's he starts like a couple of these like shopping 0:12:44.080 --> 0:12:47.160 like online shopping companies they do like fine, and he 0:12:47.240 --> 0:12:51.920 sells them, but they don't like do incredible and so okay. 0:12:51.920 --> 0:12:53.200 So this is the part that a lot of the 0:12:53.200 --> 0:12:55.560 accounts of him leave out, like the sort of like 0:12:55.600 --> 0:12:58.000 fawning accounts leave out. Is the next thing that he does, 0:12:58.040 --> 0:13:00.480 which is he sets up this like really shit game 0:13:00.559 --> 0:13:04.239 studio and they make like a bunch of like absolutely 0:13:04.360 --> 0:13:09.000 unbelievably weird and horny mobile games. So they make like 0:13:09.160 --> 0:13:13.679 Mafia City, Joy Spade, Texas, Hold'm Poker. They had this 0:13:13.720 --> 0:13:17.440 game called Girl ex Battle that is like you assemble 0:13:17.520 --> 0:13:20.120 a harem of girlfriends and then have them fight other people. 0:13:20.760 --> 0:13:24.840 Instead of like absolutely have you played any of these 0:13:25.120 --> 0:13:27.800 Oh no, absolutely not. I refuse. I think I've actually 0:13:27.840 --> 0:13:31.440 seen Mafia City ads before, but it's like, like it's 0:13:31.679 --> 0:13:37.160 the absolute most dogshit like bargain basement. I guess they're 0:13:37.240 --> 0:13:38.480 kind of pre gotcha games. 0:13:38.800 --> 0:13:41.880 I was just wondering how far your dedication to research 0:13:41.960 --> 0:13:42.720 went here, but. 0:13:42.679 --> 0:13:45.480 Not far enough. Look, here's the thing, my dedication of 0:13:45.559 --> 0:13:48.400 research went exactly far enough that I refuse to install 0:13:48.480 --> 0:13:50.440 any of these apps for reasons that we'll get into 0:13:50.559 --> 0:13:54.200 next episode. I was like, absolutely not. In fact, this. 0:13:54.480 --> 0:13:57.960 Doing this research actually caused me to uninstall chaw Bus, 0:13:58.040 --> 0:14:00.520 which is like a Chinese food delivery app, because I 0:14:00.559 --> 0:14:03.000 realized that it was constantly running in the background to 0:14:03.160 --> 0:14:07.080 like to drive up. It's like user engagement metrics. 0:14:06.800 --> 0:14:10.239 That is completely fair, although if you were even more dedicated, 0:14:10.440 --> 0:14:12.240 you could have bought a burner phone to download all 0:14:12.240 --> 0:14:13.640 these apps onto and tested on that. 0:14:13.840 --> 0:14:20.600 So that's true, but I no, I refuse to let 0:14:20.600 --> 0:14:23.960 that shit connect to my internet. Like, under no circumstances. 0:14:24.400 --> 0:14:26.320 You can go to a Starbucks, you can go to 0:14:26.360 --> 0:14:28.520 a see I've just thrown out options here. 0:14:29.800 --> 0:14:33.720 I probably could have done this, but no, absolutely not. Actually, well, 0:14:34.120 --> 0:14:37.040 it's actually really hard to download the Chinese version of 0:14:37.080 --> 0:14:39.320 this for reasons that we'll get into the next episode. 0:14:39.640 --> 0:14:43.000 All right, all right, but okay, So, like he's running 0:14:43.000 --> 0:14:46.520 this shitty game company and he has a genuinely brilliant 0:14:46.760 --> 0:14:52.280 and terrible insight, which is that she sees how addictive 0:14:52.560 --> 0:14:55.840 like mobile gaming and how addictive like micro transactions are, 0:14:56.920 --> 0:14:59.680 and he goes, oh shit, what if I put this 0:14:59.720 --> 0:15:01.360 in a sh popping gap except that because that's the 0:15:01.400 --> 0:15:03.600 reasonable way to explain it. But like, the thing he 0:15:03.680 --> 0:15:05.840 actually did was like why are okay? His thought his 0:15:05.880 --> 0:15:09.040 actual thought process was why are we not selling game 0:15:09.240 --> 0:15:11.760 games are all like advertised in men, right, Like these 0:15:11.840 --> 0:15:15.160 the apps that he's making are like weird, horny stuff 0:15:15.160 --> 0:15:17.560 for guys. Why are we not making games of women? 0:15:18.240 --> 0:15:21.320 Which is reasonable, But then his follow up was, uh, 0:15:21.480 --> 0:15:25.440 effectively women be shopping, and he was like, so trying, 0:15:25.520 --> 0:15:29.400 and we'll make a shopping thing. It's just like we'll 0:15:29.440 --> 0:15:32.240 make we'll make we'll make an app to make shopping 0:15:32.240 --> 0:15:35.120 into a game, and so and one of the things 0:15:35.160 --> 0:15:36.680 he's he's also been doing one of the like the 0:15:36.760 --> 0:15:39.840 kind of like search engine optimization scams, where like he 0:15:39.920 --> 0:15:43.800 just keeps making different shopping like shopping websites and hoping 0:15:43.800 --> 0:15:45.880 that one of them will like climb in the search rankings. 0:15:46.640 --> 0:15:49.720 But eventually he hits on a like a combination of 0:15:50.120 --> 0:15:55.160 using the like dog shit like addictive mobile gamification stuff 0:15:55.200 --> 0:15:57.920 from his mobile games in a like in an online 0:15:57.920 --> 0:15:59.880 shopping app, and he hits on that as the idea 0:16:00.720 --> 0:16:02.720 for a new shopping app. And this is what turns 0:16:02.760 --> 0:16:05.800 into PDD. Now do you know what didn't turn into 0:16:05.800 --> 0:16:07.600 PDD and is in fact better? 0:16:09.080 --> 0:16:12.880 Hopefully these ads that are not for Temo we better 0:16:12.880 --> 0:16:14.400 not get a fucking temo ade. 0:16:14.640 --> 0:16:22.360 Hopefully, I it's actually possible. It's oh god, well, careful 0:16:22.400 --> 0:16:38.000 what you wish for, and we're back. So PDD doesn't 0:16:38.040 --> 0:16:42.040 start in the way that normal tech app things do, 0:16:42.840 --> 0:16:45.240 which is to say that PDD starts as an online 0:16:45.320 --> 0:16:49.200 fruit vendor. Now, okay, if you know anything like. 0:16:49.160 --> 0:16:52.200 A like a farmer's market online like what what? 0:16:52.440 --> 0:16:56.160 Yeah? Okay, So if you know anything about how like 0:16:56.280 --> 0:17:01.560 Amazon worked, right, So Amazon goes from books to a 0:17:01.600 --> 0:17:05.600 bunch of stuff to food. PDD does this backwards. They 0:17:05.640 --> 0:17:09.600 start in food. Now, this is very weird. And the 0:17:09.680 --> 0:17:13.640 reason this works, and the reason that PDD starts as 0:17:13.640 --> 0:17:16.400 a marketplace for rural farmers to self roofs and vegetables 0:17:16.440 --> 0:17:19.960 like directly to consumers is because unfortunately of the structure 0:17:19.960 --> 0:17:22.160 of the Chinese agricultural market, which we have to talk 0:17:22.200 --> 0:17:25.320 about a little bit. So something I talked about. God, 0:17:25.320 --> 0:17:26.960 I don't know how many years ago this was now, 0:17:27.240 --> 0:17:29.720 but like a while back I did an episode about 0:17:29.720 --> 0:17:33.600 this company that poisons like three hundred thousand babies by 0:17:33.600 --> 0:17:36.400 making poisoned milk in China. And one of the things 0:17:36.400 --> 0:17:37.919 though that was a Bassard's episode one of the things 0:17:37.960 --> 0:17:42.639 I talked about in that episode was how the Chinese 0:17:42.680 --> 0:17:47.439 agricultural market is incredibly fragmented. We don't have time to 0:17:47.480 --> 0:17:51.520 do a full history of rural decollectivization here, but the 0:17:51.600 --> 0:17:53.360 upshot of it is that it results in a lot 0:17:53.359 --> 0:17:56.600 of farmers working really small plots of land who are 0:17:56.600 --> 0:17:58.800 forced to sell their goods to a series of middlemen 0:17:58.840 --> 0:18:02.200 who make the actual profits. And because these farmers have 0:18:02.359 --> 0:18:04.680 like a tiny amount of land and grow stuff on 0:18:05.000 --> 0:18:07.600 or they have like two cows, right, they don't have 0:18:07.600 --> 0:18:10.840 the financial leverage to negotiate with like the middleman, the 0:18:10.880 --> 0:18:13.600 middle bank can just set prices on them. And and 0:18:13.640 --> 0:18:16.040 the product of this is you have a really really 0:18:16.119 --> 0:18:18.520 fragmented market where there's just like all of these like 0:18:18.600 --> 0:18:22.560 unbelievably large numbers of these really small sellers, and part 0:18:22.560 --> 0:18:25.119 of and you know, and this and this, this locks 0:18:25.160 --> 0:18:26.639 all of these people into the middlemen. The middle man 0:18:26.680 --> 0:18:29.200 can set the prices. The middlemen set the prices incredibly low, 0:18:29.200 --> 0:18:31.280 and they're locked in because they don't have another distribution 0:18:31.359 --> 0:18:33.359 method because the only thing they can do is sell 0:18:33.440 --> 0:18:37.800 to these like agricultural midleman companies. The companies like above them, 0:18:37.800 --> 0:18:40.480 like your grocery companies are like actual milk company who 0:18:40.520 --> 0:18:43.680 packages the milk. They love this stuff because it means 0:18:43.720 --> 0:18:47.000 that they don't have to like pay the farmers. They 0:18:47.000 --> 0:18:49.080 can just buy like the goods directly. They don't have 0:18:49.119 --> 0:18:50.639 to deal with like employment stuff, and they don't have 0:18:50.680 --> 0:18:52.640 to deal with quality control too because they can pass 0:18:52.680 --> 0:18:55.120 that on to the middlemen. Now, something else we talked 0:18:55.160 --> 0:18:57.960 about in our anti work Lying Flat episodes like three 0:18:58.040 --> 0:19:03.280 years ago, is that China has these like far like 0:19:03.400 --> 0:19:06.040 rural influencers. That was it was like a huge wave 0:19:06.240 --> 0:19:08.159 of these people that sort of like image you might 0:19:08.200 --> 0:19:10.359 actually have seen you've seen the videos of just like 0:19:11.000 --> 0:19:14.800 someone in rural China like cutting wood or something. Oh yeah, 0:19:14.840 --> 0:19:21.600 totally totally. Yeah. So those those things, we were like, Okay, 0:19:21.680 --> 0:19:24.160 the US catches up the stuff on the Chinese internet 0:19:24.280 --> 0:19:29.399 like usually several years after like happened there, and that 0:19:29.400 --> 0:19:32.399 makes sense. Yeah. And the next thing in line after 0:19:32.440 --> 0:19:34.679 the original sort of ural influencer waves was these like 0:19:34.920 --> 0:19:37.879 was this wave of like farmer influencers and these people 0:19:37.920 --> 0:19:41.119 they're using like a different Chinese like it's like another 0:19:41.160 --> 0:19:43.920 it's like another tich Dot clone basically, and they're doing 0:19:44.000 --> 0:19:47.159 the thing that they're doing is okay. So you you know, 0:19:47.200 --> 0:19:50.160 you have your regular influencer who's trying to sell you 0:19:50.240 --> 0:19:53.679 like the image of rural life, right, and then you 0:19:53.720 --> 0:19:55.639 have the farmer influencers who are trying to sell you 0:19:55.680 --> 0:19:58.520 the image of rural life and also their potatoes. And 0:19:58.560 --> 0:20:00.200 this is this is like the marketing strategy. This is 0:20:00.280 --> 0:20:02.879 this is how you can skip the middlemen and like 0:20:02.960 --> 0:20:06.560 actually sell your fruit is by becoming an influencer. Which 0:20:07.200 --> 0:20:10.840 it's so cursed. It's so cursed. I hate it so much. 0:20:11.240 --> 0:20:15.439 That is kind of dystopian. It's just the constant, the 0:20:15.480 --> 0:20:16.520 constant performance. 0:20:17.160 --> 0:20:19.080 Yeah. But the problem is that the alternative to it 0:20:19.160 --> 0:20:22.720 is even worse because PDD realizes this and that they're 0:20:22.760 --> 0:20:25.120 looking at these markets and they're like, hold on, these 0:20:25.160 --> 0:20:28.080 farmers are already selling their goods for like next to nothing. 0:20:28.440 --> 0:20:31.719 If we come in, pay them a bit better, use 0:20:31.760 --> 0:20:33.800 our text or like our tech money to our text 0:20:33.800 --> 0:20:36.000 startup money. They have an enormous amount of tex startup money. 0:20:36.200 --> 0:20:39.200 If we use that text startup money to give them rebates, 0:20:39.480 --> 0:20:41.400 we can do things that like you know, we can 0:20:41.480 --> 0:20:46.479 not charge them commission, right, And if we can do this, 0:20:46.560 --> 0:20:49.080 we can turn around and sell these fruits for like 0:20:49.520 --> 0:20:53.440 zero dollars. Zero dollars is slight exaggeration, but when I like, 0:20:53.440 --> 0:20:56.320 they're selling these fruits for an are unbelievably cheap, Like 0:20:56.359 --> 0:20:58.800 we are talking ten mangos for a dollar and thirty 0:20:58.840 --> 0:21:03.960 nine cents, which is like a steal, outrageous, right, And 0:21:04.520 --> 0:21:07.920 you know this is this is incredibly successful. What they're 0:21:07.960 --> 0:21:10.919 doing basically is a giant version of the Amazon gambit. Right, 0:21:10.960 --> 0:21:13.119 they're eating shit and taking losses to sell all of 0:21:13.119 --> 0:21:15.520 this stuff, although they're losing less money than you'd think, 0:21:16.080 --> 0:21:19.200 Like the actual price of these goods is already so low, 0:21:19.240 --> 0:21:21.240 and we're gonna come back to that too, because that's 0:21:21.280 --> 0:21:23.200 an aspect of what's so messed up about this whole thing. 0:21:23.840 --> 0:21:25.760 But you know, so they eat shit that takes some losses, 0:21:26.600 --> 0:21:31.400 but they really really quickly build market share. So this 0:21:31.440 --> 0:21:34.080 is a very very short smart strategy because it's not 0:21:34.160 --> 0:21:36.879 just in the sort of real market. China has a 0:21:36.920 --> 0:21:39.560 shit ton of like small and medium sized producers that 0:21:39.600 --> 0:21:42.359 make a whole bunch of things, or like guy with 0:21:42.440 --> 0:21:47.320 one factory person doing like craft production stuff. And PD's 0:21:47.400 --> 0:21:50.159 plan is to pull together all of these sellers like this, 0:21:50.359 --> 0:21:53.480 this whole all all of these people from different markets 0:21:53.640 --> 0:21:57.600 into just one giant, like one giant like market that 0:21:57.640 --> 0:22:01.440 they control now importantly, unlike Amazon, and this is like 0:22:01.480 --> 0:22:04.440 ali Baba too, because Ali Baba works on a fairly 0:22:04.480 --> 0:22:07.240 similar model to well, okay, in a lot of ways, 0:22:07.320 --> 0:22:09.800 is a similar model to Amazon. It's not identical. But 0:22:10.359 --> 0:22:15.200 unlike those two companies, PDD doesn't run their own logistics network. 0:22:15.400 --> 0:22:17.840 It's all it's all third party. Like the shipping and 0:22:17.880 --> 0:22:19.680 all that shit is done by is done through third 0:22:19.720 --> 0:22:23.920 party logistics stuff. So like their shipping companies, they don't 0:22:23.920 --> 0:22:27.679 own warehouses like that stuff, you know, what they're what 0:22:27.720 --> 0:22:30.240 they do instead is they use the shipping companies and 0:22:30.280 --> 0:22:32.680 warehouses that were developed in like the earlier parts of 0:22:32.720 --> 0:22:35.120 the Chinese tech boom, and they're able to just use 0:22:35.160 --> 0:22:39.040 that infrastructure to you know, to to ship all their 0:22:39.040 --> 0:22:41.200 stuff around. And this means that the company is extremely 0:22:41.280 --> 0:22:44.600 lean in the sense that like they don't have a 0:22:44.600 --> 0:22:46.640 lot of physical assets like they know, and this means 0:22:46.680 --> 0:22:48.399 they don't have to deal with labor costs or like 0:22:48.400 --> 0:22:51.119 the logistics problems of actually having to like you know, 0:22:51.160 --> 0:22:55.399 of actually having employees packing boxes and making things they're 0:22:55.520 --> 0:22:58.439 just an app. It's it's it's well, they're they're like 0:22:58.520 --> 0:23:01.520 the original model of Uber in some sense, right where 0:23:01.560 --> 0:23:04.120 like you don't like Uber doesn't fucking own or wasn't 0:23:04.119 --> 0:23:07.000 supposed to be owning cars. I mean, I guess Uber's 0:23:07.000 --> 0:23:08.399 a bad example because they were trying to do the 0:23:08.640 --> 0:23:12.240 automated car thing, but that was a fiasco. But you know, 0:23:12.320 --> 0:23:15.679 the thing that PDD makes is just an app, but 0:23:15.840 --> 0:23:18.120 it's it's an incredibly addictive app, like it's it's it's 0:23:18.160 --> 0:23:21.720 a shopping gotcha game, which is like maybe the worst 0:23:21.760 --> 0:23:23.840 sentence in the history of the human language. 0:23:26.720 --> 0:23:29.520 And this was like this was around the time, like 0:23:30.440 --> 0:23:32.800 I want to say, like tennish years ago, give or 0:23:32.840 --> 0:23:36.800 take a few years, where like micro transactions were becoming massive, 0:23:37.000 --> 0:23:40.320 like all, like it took over gaming, It took over 0:23:40.440 --> 0:23:44.360 so many parts of just being online, It took over apps, 0:23:44.400 --> 0:23:47.439 like it just it just infected everything, and we luckily 0:23:47.560 --> 0:23:51.520 kind of pushed back on some some of that. We're 0:23:51.600 --> 0:23:54.480 still not all of it, but like there was definitely 0:23:54.560 --> 0:23:57.280 some some degree of like, oh well, we are simply 0:23:57.280 --> 0:23:59.359 not going to be buying all of these games if 0:23:59.359 --> 0:24:02.360 it's just full of like micro transaction bullshit, and then 0:24:02.400 --> 0:24:04.440 Fortnite took over and we're back and well again. 0:24:04.520 --> 0:24:08.320 But whatever. Actually, it's it's pretty funny. China kind of recently, 0:24:08.359 --> 0:24:11.040 the Chinese government like did a crackdown on like loop 0:24:11.080 --> 0:24:13.800 boxes and stuff because they were some of some of 0:24:13.800 --> 0:24:15.719 the some of the regulations they put in place a nuts, 0:24:15.800 --> 0:24:17.960 but some of it was like you can't sell loop 0:24:18.040 --> 0:24:21.919 you can't sell gambling the children. Yeah, and this caused 0:24:21.960 --> 0:24:24.200 like it's funny because they're kind of walking it back 0:24:24.280 --> 0:24:27.480 now because it hurt their gaming market so much. They're like, well, shit, okay, 0:24:27.480 --> 0:24:30.720 we have to we need those kids. Yeah, like that's 0:24:30.720 --> 0:24:33.919 the only way to make money. Yeah, but you know, 0:24:34.000 --> 0:24:36.920 but but PDDs like brilliant. They're sort of like the 0:24:37.119 --> 0:24:40.439 the the absolutely evil shit that they realized is like 0:24:40.480 --> 0:24:42.480 we can just we can just do this for shopping. 0:24:42.520 --> 0:24:44.640 And so like the moment you log in, right, there's 0:24:44.680 --> 0:24:46.919 like these flash deals and there's these group deals and 0:24:47.080 --> 0:24:49.119 this is the thing that the group deals are the 0:24:49.119 --> 0:24:52.480 thing that that PDD is based around. So the way 0:24:52.520 --> 0:24:54.679 it works is you get these group deals and so 0:24:55.000 --> 0:24:57.080 you get a link and you send it to people, 0:24:57.080 --> 0:24:58.720 and the more people click on the link to buy 0:24:58.760 --> 0:25:02.399 the thing, the cheaper it becomes. So, and then you 0:25:02.440 --> 0:25:04.400 send the links over we Chat, which is the curve 0:25:04.400 --> 0:25:07.080 of like catch all Chinese messenger or like social media 0:25:07.119 --> 0:25:09.600 app that everyone uses to like talk to their boomer parents. 0:25:10.400 --> 0:25:12.560 And so the thing that your boomer parents are doing 0:25:13.000 --> 0:25:15.639 is they're sending these shopping links to each other. And 0:25:16.520 --> 0:25:19.240 you know, and the the more like the more people 0:25:19.240 --> 0:25:21.080 click on these links, the cheaper the good becomes. So 0:25:21.080 --> 0:25:22.679 what was the more people are buying it, the more 0:25:22.680 --> 0:25:25.000 people you rope into buying stuff from this app, the 0:25:25.080 --> 0:25:28.080 cheaper it is, and the more deals you get, you 0:25:28.119 --> 0:25:30.280 get things like they'll just like give you like quote 0:25:30.359 --> 0:25:33.760 unquote free money if you spend enough money in like 0:25:34.760 --> 0:25:36.760 basically like in the same way that like micro transaction 0:25:36.880 --> 0:25:38.360 works right where it's like, you know, in a game, 0:25:38.400 --> 0:25:40.159 it's like if you play the x number of games, 0:25:40.200 --> 0:25:42.480 will give you like in game currency, whereas this is 0:25:42.520 --> 0:25:44.640 just like will literally give you money, you'll like send 0:25:44.680 --> 0:25:48.480 things to you. God, that sounds like hell, it's awful. 0:25:48.840 --> 0:25:53.479 It's so bad, and very importantly right, it's this giant 0:25:53.560 --> 0:25:55.640 loop that it not only gets people to spend money, 0:25:55.640 --> 0:25:57.520 but it gets people to bring their friends in because 0:25:57.520 --> 0:25:58.800 you have to bring your friends in to get the 0:25:58.800 --> 0:26:01.159 group deals, so everything gets cheap and cheaper, and the 0:26:01.200 --> 0:26:04.639 tactics they use are absolutely wild. They get in trouble 0:26:04.680 --> 0:26:07.639 in twenty twenty one for this promotion called Bargain for 0:26:07.720 --> 0:26:10.760 Free Goods, where you'd get a link and the claim 0:26:10.840 --> 0:26:12.359 was that if enough people clicked it, you would get 0:26:12.400 --> 0:26:15.520 the good for free. And so this guy tried to 0:26:15.560 --> 0:26:17.000 do it, but he couldn't. He can only get it 0:26:17.040 --> 0:26:19.320 two point nine percent of the cost. So we sued 0:26:19.359 --> 0:26:23.880 them for false advertising and the claim got thrown out, 0:26:24.000 --> 0:26:28.040 but the company had to pay him like money, so 0:26:28.200 --> 0:26:29.640 like this is the kind of shit that they're doing. 0:26:30.640 --> 0:26:34.520 WeChat actually like blocked their links for a while because, 0:26:35.200 --> 0:26:38.240 you know, cause like some enormous portion of messages suddenly 0:26:38.240 --> 0:26:40.359 we're just like these people sending these spam links to 0:26:40.440 --> 0:26:42.240 like every single person they know, trying to get them 0:26:42.240 --> 0:26:46.840 to buy like a fucking toothbrush so that your toothbrushes 0:26:46.880 --> 0:26:50.920 can be cheaper. Right. But eventually we Chat kind of like, 0:26:52.320 --> 0:26:54.520 you know, we Chat gives up and they start like 0:26:54.720 --> 0:26:58.400 allying more with PDD. I mean, there's a whole there's 0:26:58.440 --> 0:27:00.439 a whole complicated story. I'm not gonna get to hear 0:27:00.520 --> 0:27:03.880 about like the like China's really really ferocious like tech 0:27:03.920 --> 0:27:07.479 company wars because like in the US, you know, like 0:27:07.560 --> 0:27:10.320 our tech monopolies are relatively stable, right, Like they've sort 0:27:10.320 --> 0:27:13.240 of portioned up the Internet into or and like distribution 0:27:13.320 --> 0:27:17.640 and stuff into just like basically like local monopolies, right, 0:27:17.800 --> 0:27:20.240 Like like Google is like the only search engine company. 0:27:20.240 --> 0:27:23.479 There's there's basically no competition there, right, Like there's some 0:27:23.520 --> 0:27:25.840 competition in terms of social media, but even then it's 0:27:25.880 --> 0:27:28.600 like and it's not like the Chinese version words like 0:27:28.720 --> 0:27:33.800 unbelievably ferocious competition and sometimes they cooperate, but yeah, you know, 0:27:33.880 --> 0:27:37.800 it's it's really fierce. And PDDs. You know the thing 0:27:37.840 --> 0:27:41.240 that they do, right is they pair this app stuff 0:27:41.440 --> 0:27:44.679 with direct to consumer sales, and PDT is really the 0:27:44.720 --> 0:27:49.480 pioneers of this. She In and okay, so I I 0:27:49.520 --> 0:27:52.879 she In is that fucking fast fashioned clothing company. I 0:27:53.359 --> 0:27:57.240 learned today that it is actually pronounced she In because 0:27:57.600 --> 0:28:02.160 the name of the thing is she In, like sa 0:28:02.240 --> 0:28:07.080 she she and then she's like she's in. Yeah, I 0:28:07.119 --> 0:28:12.040 hate it so much. I'm so sad. I I mean 0:28:12.080 --> 0:28:13.879 I feel slightly better because like I kept trying to 0:28:13.880 --> 0:28:16.160 read it in Chinese. It's like this doesn't make any sense, 0:28:16.960 --> 0:28:18.560 Like it's just bafflely it doesn't and it's like, oh no, 0:28:18.600 --> 0:28:24.879 it's because it's in English. Yeah, But BDD is the 0:28:24.920 --> 0:28:28.359 precursor of Shean's like strategy, right, like they're they're the 0:28:28.400 --> 0:28:31.960 originators of this, except they're you know, they're what they're 0:28:31.960 --> 0:28:33.879 doing basically, it's it's a fact. It's kind of like 0:28:33.960 --> 0:28:37.840 drop shipping, but you know, the sales are being pushed 0:28:38.080 --> 0:28:40.400 by these these sort of gamified app stuff, and this 0:28:40.440 --> 0:28:42.920 means they have this like real time supply management system 0:28:43.440 --> 0:28:46.760 that tells producers like like they can like they go 0:28:46.880 --> 0:28:49.040 down and like tell their sellers like what to produce 0:28:49.120 --> 0:28:53.120 more of based on like app sales. So you know, 0:28:53.280 --> 0:28:54.760 like the way it works is you start off with 0:28:54.800 --> 0:28:56.880 a small it's like a small number of things, and 0:28:56.880 --> 0:28:58.880 then you get ads to push that those like fucking 0:28:59.040 --> 0:29:03.200 toothbrushes or whatever. And then as like sales wramp up, 0:29:03.200 --> 0:29:05.760 you ramp up productions. You can ship people more toothbrushes. 0:29:07.080 --> 0:29:09.280 Now do you know who else will ship you toothbrushes 0:29:09.280 --> 0:29:13.000 that will probably be better quality than the PDD tooth pressure? 0:29:13.120 --> 0:29:15.800 No, we can we can guarantee all of our sponsors 0:29:15.840 --> 0:29:19.200 have only the top quality toothbrushes. That is, that is 0:29:19.280 --> 0:29:21.920 what we call the cool Zone guarantee. Go do toothbrush 0:29:22.000 --> 0:29:25.680 dot com and put in the keyword MIA for a 0:29:25.720 --> 0:29:28.360 ten percent off on your TOLF of the lines. 0:29:28.440 --> 0:29:43.960 Please don't do this, So all right, D and D 0:29:44.960 --> 0:29:50.200 just it takes rural China by storm. Sure it sounds convenient, 0:29:50.600 --> 0:29:54.760 like yeah for some panil and it's really really cheap, 0:29:55.000 --> 0:29:57.280 is the thing, right, And the thing about rural China 0:29:57.360 --> 0:30:00.920 is you're dealing with a level of poverty that like 0:30:02.840 --> 0:30:08.400 is like almost like it's not unimaginable in the US, 0:30:08.440 --> 0:30:15.680 but it's like unbelievable, Like it's something that like like 0:30:15.800 --> 0:30:21.840 we don't really have it in the same way because okay, 0:30:21.840 --> 0:30:23.600 so like an example of the kind of stuff we're 0:30:23.640 --> 0:30:26.480 dealing with, right, Like, so, China's GDP per capita in 0:30:26.600 --> 0:30:29.560 like the sixties was lower than hades. Right, this is 0:30:29.560 --> 0:30:32.440 an unbelievably poor country. And there are there are places 0:30:32.440 --> 0:30:36.719 in real China that are still like basically not quite 0:30:36.760 --> 0:30:41.960 that poor, but are like unbelievably poor in ways that like, 0:30:43.000 --> 0:30:46.080 you know, we're talking about people who are like people 0:30:46.080 --> 0:30:48.440 who are doing kind of well in these regions, are 0:30:48.440 --> 0:30:52.360 making seven hundred dollars a month. Like that's like on 0:30:52.440 --> 0:30:54.560 a good month, right, they're making seven hundred dollars a month, 0:30:54.600 --> 0:30:57.280 which is that's eight four hundred dollars a year. And 0:30:57.600 --> 0:31:00.200 that's that's that's if you have twelve good months, right, 0:31:00.200 --> 0:31:02.520 if you have normal months, it's more like six thousand 0:31:02.520 --> 0:31:05.160 dollars a year. And so you know, and when when 0:31:05.200 --> 0:31:07.920 when you're in a place where people are using stuff 0:31:07.920 --> 0:31:10.440 like this, and again that's someone who like has a 0:31:10.560 --> 0:31:15.000 job full time is making like six thousand dollars a year, 0:31:15.240 --> 0:31:18.920 and so people use PDD to shop because it's incredibly 0:31:19.000 --> 0:31:21.880 cheap and it's also addictive. And when I say cheap, 0:31:21.880 --> 0:31:23.840 like we're talking like two dollars for a pair of 0:31:23.920 --> 0:31:28.480 jeenes cheap, right, And like that's that's also like cheap 0:31:28.520 --> 0:31:31.280 and you on too. It's like unbelievably low prices. 0:31:31.680 --> 0:31:33.280 I mean this, this kind of this kind of reminds 0:31:33.280 --> 0:31:37.720 me a little bit of that recent Tucker Carlson. Russia 0:31:37.840 --> 0:31:41.440 is great actually media stunt. Oh yeah, look, all of 0:31:41.440 --> 0:31:45.560 these groceries only cost one hundred dollars in American currency, 0:31:45.840 --> 0:31:48.720 and it's like Yeah, because they're getting paid like two 0:31:48.840 --> 0:31:51.560 hundred dollars like a week, like they're not they're not 0:31:51.640 --> 0:31:55.120 taking home very much money, so all of the costs 0:31:55.160 --> 0:31:57.800 like slide very differently, Like you can't just compare this 0:31:57.840 --> 0:31:58.400 one to one. 0:31:58.720 --> 0:32:02.040 Yeah. Also, the thing I will say about PDD is 0:32:02.080 --> 0:32:06.360 that their prices are unbelievably low by Chinese standards, like 0:32:07.000 --> 0:32:08.920 this is this is also why they look so low 0:32:09.040 --> 0:32:10.720 by American standards too, is that these are these are 0:32:10.800 --> 0:32:13.440 low by Chinese standards, and because they're so low by 0:32:13.480 --> 0:32:17.200 Chinese standards, like people, people buy stuff from it. The 0:32:17.280 --> 0:32:19.320 cost of this is that the stuff they're selling is 0:32:19.360 --> 0:32:23.240 really cheap. I mean, the other cost is the unbelievable 0:32:23.240 --> 0:32:25.640 exploitation of the Chinese working class. But you know, we'll 0:32:25.640 --> 0:32:27.200 get to that. We'll get to that next episode. The 0:32:27.520 --> 0:32:30.040 main cost of the stuff being cheap is that the 0:32:30.040 --> 0:32:33.760 stuff they buy like sucks ass like literally literally this 0:32:33.840 --> 0:32:36.720 only the CEO talks about is that their gambit is that, Okay, 0:32:36.720 --> 0:32:39.560 we'll ship you ten mangos for for like a dollar 0:32:39.640 --> 0:32:42.040 thirty nine. Two of them will be rotten, but that 0:32:42.080 --> 0:32:45.840 means you still get eight mangos. That we're still unbelievable, 0:32:46.280 --> 0:32:47.920 Like that's the thing, and like, you know, the stuff 0:32:47.920 --> 0:32:50.920 that they get like sucks. Here's from the Chinese media 0:32:50.920 --> 0:32:53.200 outlet sixth Tone, which has done a lot of good 0:32:53.280 --> 0:32:57.760 coverage of PDD. They they used to be better. They're 0:32:57.840 --> 0:33:02.120 like the kind of like left like stay media outlet. 0:33:02.880 --> 0:33:05.000 They used to be better, and then their staff got 0:33:05.120 --> 0:33:08.320 run out because they they went they walked too close 0:33:08.360 --> 0:33:11.240 to the line. So but here's here, here's what here's 0:33:11.240 --> 0:33:13.360 they've done a lot of they because the most of 0:33:13.400 --> 0:33:16.440 the PDD coverage came from before their people got run out. 0:33:16.480 --> 0:33:20.000 So quote. Following the I p O, a number of 0:33:20.040 --> 0:33:23.680 purchase Series A purchases allegedly bought from PDD we're shared online, 0:33:23.720 --> 0:33:26.400 including a hair dryer that broke out in flames after 0:33:26.440 --> 0:33:32.040 it was switched on, a power bake. Hey, that also 0:33:32.080 --> 0:33:33.720 happens in America. Don't worry. 0:33:34.080 --> 0:33:36.440 I know you're like, I know you're like, oh, I'm 0:33:36.480 --> 0:33:38.840 missing out on all these great deals, all these great products. 0:33:38.880 --> 0:33:40.960 Not true. This could also happen in the States. 0:33:41.360 --> 0:33:41.640 Yep. 0:33:43.720 --> 0:33:46.360 There's another one where they had a power bank and 0:33:46.440 --> 0:33:48.120 someone ordered it and they came and it was just 0:33:48.280 --> 0:33:50.080 four triple A batteries and a container. 0:33:50.800 --> 0:33:54.960 That's funny. That's good, that's a good bit. That's yeah, 0:33:55.040 --> 0:33:55.880 that's pretty good. 0:33:55.960 --> 0:33:57.640 You know, there's stuff like like one of one like 0:33:57.680 --> 0:33:59.840 sixth time was interviewing people in real areas you bost off. 0:34:00.000 --> 0:34:01.200 They were like, yeah, I brought it. I bought a 0:34:01.240 --> 0:34:03.520 fishing rod for like two bucks and it was broken. 0:34:03.640 --> 0:34:06.120 I bought a pair of shoes and it literally fell 0:34:06.120 --> 0:34:08.800 apart after three days. Sot me. 0:34:09.880 --> 0:34:12.960 I have complicated feelings on this because I think there 0:34:13.120 --> 0:34:17.880 is a place for gambling in purchases. If if, for example, 0:34:18.400 --> 0:34:22.320 on Amazon, if every fourth product you bought there was 0:34:22.360 --> 0:34:28.440 a completely like defective, like purposely like lower quality version, 0:34:28.840 --> 0:34:30.319 I think that would be a good for the world. 0:34:30.320 --> 0:34:33.040 We would have probably we would have less people using Amazon, 0:34:33.320 --> 0:34:35.920 and you would kind of get slightly punished. So I 0:34:35.960 --> 0:34:39.480 think this actually could be a good thing if used correctly, 0:34:39.719 --> 0:34:43.280 where we where we purposely sabotage every like fourth person 0:34:43.600 --> 0:34:45.480 who buys anything online. 0:34:45.600 --> 0:34:48.600 But the problem is that people fucking love gambling like that. 0:34:48.800 --> 0:34:51.120 That's that's just gonna make people do more because now 0:34:51.160 --> 0:34:53.040 there's more of a downside if we're trying to get 0:34:53.080 --> 0:34:58.359 your fucking deal. So I mean, and this is the thing, right, 0:34:58.440 --> 0:35:00.520 Like you're rolling the dice every time every time you 0:35:00.560 --> 0:35:01.960 take a you. 0:35:02.080 --> 0:35:05.360 Order like an election generator online and they send you 0:35:05.440 --> 0:35:08.840 a double a. Oh my god, it'd be so funny funny. 0:35:09.600 --> 0:35:11.800 Well, I mean, now, hey, you too can now shop 0:35:11.800 --> 0:35:16.440 on Temu. You too could experience getting shipped just fucking bullshit. 0:35:17.000 --> 0:35:19.560 You order some nice Hawaiian coffee and they send you 0:35:19.600 --> 0:35:22.680 some like camameo. Oh god, devastating. 0:35:23.840 --> 0:35:27.400 So this this whole thing of you buy stuff that 0:35:27.520 --> 0:35:30.520 sucks or doesn't work. And the fact that PDD starts 0:35:30.560 --> 0:35:33.120 in rural China means that, like initially there's this like 0:35:33.239 --> 0:35:36.319 real class element about how who uses PDD. It's seen 0:35:36.360 --> 0:35:39.399 as like the site for poor and gullible people who 0:35:39.400 --> 0:35:42.319 don't care about quality. Yeah, it's like it's the place 0:35:42.320 --> 0:35:44.960 where lower class people shop. Yeah sure, yeah, And well 0:35:45.200 --> 0:35:48.920 that stops being true kind of because everyone starts using it. 0:35:49.520 --> 0:35:52.319 But Comma, the other problem they have is that it 0:35:52.400 --> 0:35:55.360 is absolutely rife with kind of fit products. Right after 0:35:55.440 --> 0:35:57.440 they go public in twenty eighteen, there's like a Chinese 0:35:57.480 --> 0:36:00.000 state investigation into the sale of their kind of fit product, 0:36:00.600 --> 0:36:03.800 and pdd's response is like, Wow, we're just a marketplace, 0:36:03.800 --> 0:36:05.480 anyone can sell on it. How are we supposed to 0:36:05.480 --> 0:36:09.440 control who makes counterfeit stuff? But this is this is 0:36:09.440 --> 0:36:11.200 actually like it gets to a kind of like cultural 0:36:11.239 --> 0:36:13.319 thing where you know, what is one of the things 0:36:13.320 --> 0:36:14.879 that happens in world trying. This happens in a lot 0:36:14.880 --> 0:36:19.280 of places where like almost everyone is wearing like clothes 0:36:19.440 --> 0:36:22.200 that are like knockoff brand stuff because it's just the 0:36:22.280 --> 0:36:25.120 cheapest clothes and like that's that's the kind of clothes 0:36:25.160 --> 0:36:28.560 that's being made that you can afford if you're you know, 0:36:28.680 --> 0:36:30.560 like you're you're you're you're trying to sort of make 0:36:30.600 --> 0:36:33.040 it like in World China, so you get like, you know, 0:36:33.080 --> 0:36:34.759 you have like entire villages where you walk in and 0:36:34.800 --> 0:36:40.040 everyone's wearing like like niaky and like a dietis or 0:36:40.080 --> 0:36:45.360 something like it's like nice. This stuff gets really wild, 0:36:45.480 --> 0:36:50.040 really fast. So here's from that that Sedging interview with 0:36:50.200 --> 0:36:54.000 Colin Huang again. So here's here's a catching it. It's 0:36:54.200 --> 0:36:57.080 a Chinese media outlet, so they're their interviewer. One of 0:36:57.120 --> 0:36:59.440 the best selling products on PDD is a bottle of 0:36:59.440 --> 0:37:03.080 Affidas priced at twenty seven point eighty on that is 0:37:03.840 --> 0:37:08.280 like three almost four dollars with a total of four 0:37:08.320 --> 0:37:12.880 point seven million orders sold. Do you think this medicine 0:37:12.960 --> 0:37:17.800 might be real? Here's the CEO. First, of all, medicines 0:37:17.800 --> 0:37:21.880 are healthcare products sold on pdd's platform must have national 0:37:21.920 --> 0:37:27.360 certification marks. Secondly, the gross profit margin of healthcare products 0:37:27.440 --> 0:37:30.520 is already extremely high, just like facial mass. Do you 0:37:30.560 --> 0:37:35.840 think the two hundred yond facial max is useful? So again, again, 0:37:36.000 --> 0:37:39.080 what is happening here is that like they have sold 0:37:39.400 --> 0:37:45.360 like one point four point seven million orders of of 0:37:45.520 --> 0:37:48.879 like a fake aphrodisiac. And when the CEO is asked 0:37:48.920 --> 0:37:51.200 about his response, it's like, well, but who could really 0:37:51.239 --> 0:37:52.959 say if any health products work? 0:37:53.160 --> 0:37:56.719 Like, wow, that is a pretty funny bit. I mean, 0:37:57.160 --> 0:37:59.920 it sucks that people, the poor people are losing money, but. 0:38:00.440 --> 0:38:04.080 Well, to be fair, be fair, pretty fine if you 0:38:04.160 --> 0:38:09.200 are trying to like buy an afrodisiac, I don't really care. Sure, 0:38:09.440 --> 0:38:10.759 sure yeah, but like you know, so part of it, 0:38:10.800 --> 0:38:12.799 like they're selling like fake hack medicines. This is like 0:38:12.800 --> 0:38:16.080 the Chinese version of the American like grift, like right 0:38:16.120 --> 0:38:17.760 wing grift like supplement market. 0:38:18.160 --> 0:38:21.239 Yeah yeah, yeah, it's the brain pills to help your 0:38:21.520 --> 0:38:22.560 libido or whatever. 0:38:22.920 --> 0:38:26.520 Yeah, but this also gets a lot darker. One of 0:38:26.560 --> 0:38:28.320 the there's one of the stories that kind of like 0:38:28.400 --> 0:38:30.879 made the rounds of Chinese social media that six Tone 0:38:30.920 --> 0:38:36.400 reports on is that people found PDD like advertising like 0:38:36.480 --> 0:38:42.520 sleep medicine as date rape drugs. Ah yeah, fucking bleak. 0:38:43.440 --> 0:38:45.160 There's like fuck and that's the thing. There's like no 0:38:45.800 --> 0:38:48.920 fucking content moderation on this, right, so people just do 0:38:49.080 --> 0:38:52.960 that shit and it really sucks. But on their hand, 0:38:53.000 --> 0:38:56.799 none of the constant bad press like stop pdd's rise, right, 0:38:57.400 --> 0:39:01.719 and now it is time to leave Colin Huang soil. 0:39:01.880 --> 0:39:05.440 Until about phil twenty twenty, pdd's rise was synonymous with 0:39:05.480 --> 0:39:08.640 its CEO, Colin Huang, But in mid twenty twenty, Huang 0:39:08.719 --> 0:39:12.240 resigned as the CEO and kind of like exited public 0:39:12.280 --> 0:39:15.239 life effectively, like not entirely. We kind of like he 0:39:15.360 --> 0:39:17.440 like took he like he resigned a CEO, and then 0:39:17.480 --> 0:39:19.960 twenty twenty one he resigns as like a chairman of 0:39:20.000 --> 0:39:21.840 the board and he's like, you know, he's doing this 0:39:21.920 --> 0:39:25.239 like philanthropic stuff instead, and he's you know, he's doing 0:39:25.280 --> 0:39:29.319 his like post CEO life thing, right, And we've never 0:39:29.400 --> 0:39:32.799 gotten a good answer as to why he stepped down, 0:39:33.080 --> 0:39:36.880 but I have a theory, and I think my theory's 0:39:36.920 --> 0:39:40.520 pretty good. And also it goes into have I, Garrison, 0:39:40.719 --> 0:39:42.960 have I explained to you the thing about I don't 0:39:43.000 --> 0:39:45.480 remember if I've done it? On this show talked about 0:39:45.600 --> 0:39:50.440 the Chinese paid a loan app thing, M I don't think. 0:39:50.480 --> 0:39:55.279 So okay, So all right, we are now going to 0:39:55.320 --> 0:39:57.560 do We're gonna close this episode out on one of 0:39:57.640 --> 0:40:03.200 the most absolutely insane moments of Chinese internet history. So okay. 0:40:03.200 --> 0:40:05.040 One of the things that happens in the Chinese tech 0:40:05.080 --> 0:40:07.320 market in the late twenty tens and early twenty twenties 0:40:07.400 --> 0:40:11.120 is this mass proliferation of app based payda loans. This 0:40:11.360 --> 0:40:14.040 is one of the worst things I have ever seen. 0:40:14.760 --> 0:40:18.400 What effectively happens is that around like twenty fourteen twenty fifteen, 0:40:18.400 --> 0:40:21.640 a bunch of Chinese tech companies, especially like delivery companies 0:40:21.719 --> 0:40:23.560 like sort of like China's version of grub, Public, Door, 0:40:23.640 --> 0:40:26.840 Dash and Ali Baba, They're like Amazon equivalent, gets in 0:40:26.880 --> 0:40:28.879 it too, and these people realize that they can start 0:40:28.920 --> 0:40:32.560 their own payment platforms. So basically like all these companies 0:40:32.560 --> 0:40:35.600 are making their own version of PayPal. But then they 0:40:35.680 --> 0:40:39.239 realize that they can use these platforms to give out 0:40:39.239 --> 0:40:43.200 Payda loans so that you can in one app take 0:40:43.239 --> 0:40:47.000 out a payday loan to order delivery, or you can 0:40:47.040 --> 0:40:50.080 in one app take out a payday loan to buyshit 0:40:50.160 --> 0:40:52.880 from Amazon. With the payday loan, ten Cent gets in 0:40:52.960 --> 0:40:55.000 on it, so you can buy Mitro transactions with your 0:40:55.040 --> 0:40:59.000 payday loans. This, as you might expect, Spiral's out of 0:40:59.000 --> 0:41:02.880 control immediate lee on the interest race on these loans 0:41:02.880 --> 0:41:05.440 are enormous, and this means that they make an unbelievable 0:41:05.440 --> 0:41:08.680 amount of money. And so apps just start like shoveling 0:41:08.719 --> 0:41:11.240 these loans in people's faces the momently long onto apps. 0:41:12.320 --> 0:41:14.319 But the thing is like this doesn't stop with just 0:41:14.440 --> 0:41:18.879 like the big shopping apps right by twenty nineteen. It's 0:41:18.880 --> 0:41:20.759 not just you know, like when I say this is 0:41:20.760 --> 0:41:23.279 going to apps right like you're fucking Like imagine if 0:41:23.360 --> 0:41:26.480 Twitter was trying to offer you bad A loans, like 0:41:26.680 --> 0:41:30.800 that's the main point of Oh that that might happen, 0:41:30.840 --> 0:41:34.920 but that might actually maybe based on the plans for 0:41:35.120 --> 0:41:38.040 the Twitter to become the banking app. Yeah, well that's 0:41:38.080 --> 0:41:42.800 actually the funny thing. So so Elon Musk really really 0:41:43.080 --> 0:41:45.400 likes China and part of the reason for this is 0:41:45.400 --> 0:41:46.880 that you know, a bunch of Tesla factories are in 0:41:46.920 --> 0:41:49.600 shing John part of the reason for this, like he's 0:41:49.600 --> 0:41:53.040 trying to like recreate the like weed chat environments, but 0:41:53.080 --> 0:41:56.319 everyone doesn't, right, Like people don't actually like it. But 0:41:56.320 --> 0:41:58.279 the thing is, the other thing that he really loves 0:41:58.360 --> 0:41:59.759 is the number of hours that you can get people 0:41:59.760 --> 0:42:02.120 to work in China that you can't really in the US. 0:42:02.480 --> 0:42:05.080 So we'll get to that fucking next episode. But you know, okay, 0:42:05.080 --> 0:42:07.120 so like like your your fucking Twitter is trying to 0:42:07.120 --> 0:42:09.480 sell you paid a apps, But then it gets the 0:42:09.520 --> 0:42:14.840 point where your fucking flashlight app is trying to sell 0:42:14.880 --> 0:42:17.600 you trying to get you to take out payday loans, 0:42:17.640 --> 0:42:21.040 like your like photo app, like every fucking app on 0:42:21.120 --> 0:42:25.279 your phone is trying to sell you pay loans. That 0:42:25.440 --> 0:42:28.360 sounds incredibly annoying. This is and this is one of 0:42:28.360 --> 0:42:30.959 these things right that like, okay, like as bad as 0:42:31.000 --> 0:42:34.040 like American apps are, right, like as bad as like 0:42:34.080 --> 0:42:36.760 the version of capitalism that we have in the American 0:42:36.760 --> 0:42:40.759 app ecosystem, Like the wildest shit is always going on 0:42:40.840 --> 0:42:43.040 in the Chinese tech market, which is like even more 0:42:43.080 --> 0:42:46.160 insane than the American tech market, and this is the thing, 0:42:46.200 --> 0:42:48.319 like we don't actually have this here, and I've been 0:42:48.320 --> 0:42:49.920 trying to figure out why it never happened here. I 0:42:49.960 --> 0:42:51.800 think it has to do it partially with banking regulation 0:42:51.880 --> 0:42:56.440 and partially with like the fact that like the actual 0:42:56.480 --> 0:42:59.120 American payd a loan companies don't want other companies to 0:42:59.160 --> 0:43:02.120 like cut in on their business. Yes, so I think 0:43:02.160 --> 0:43:04.120 that's what's happening. But like in China, it's literally like 0:43:04.160 --> 0:43:06.440 and this is happening in like like like twenty nineteen, 0:43:06.560 --> 0:43:09.200 twenty twenty, twenty twenty one, that this stuff is happening, 0:43:09.680 --> 0:43:12.600 so you know, and it's in all and this this 0:43:12.680 --> 0:43:16.280 gets I mean, it turns into just a fucking nightmare 0:43:16.719 --> 0:43:19.280 because you know, obviously, like this turns into this giant 0:43:19.320 --> 0:43:21.480 wave of people who got it in over their heads 0:43:21.520 --> 0:43:23.279 and can't pay their loans back because they took out 0:43:23.280 --> 0:43:26.239 a payday loan with thirty percent interest. And also, and 0:43:26.239 --> 0:43:28.440 this is one of the fun things, companies just straight 0:43:28.520 --> 0:43:30.960 up lie about their interest rates. Like there's a lot 0:43:30.960 --> 0:43:32.880 of examples of companies saying we have a nine percent 0:43:32.880 --> 0:43:35.600 interest rate, and then you know, in the contract it 0:43:35.600 --> 0:43:37.399 says nine percent interest rate. And then when they try 0:43:37.400 --> 0:43:39.799 to get you to pay it back. It's like thirty percent, right, 0:43:40.320 --> 0:43:42.439 Like this is like you know, and so sometimes they're 0:43:42.440 --> 0:43:43.800 they're even they're you know, you're getting up to like 0:43:43.800 --> 0:43:45.920 one hundred tw hundred percent interest like these like organized 0:43:46.000 --> 0:43:49.920 crime levels of interest. And you know, like Alli like 0:43:49.960 --> 0:43:52.440 the tech giants are all into it. Ali Baba isn't 0:43:52.520 --> 0:43:54.920 quite as big into it as like some of the 0:43:54.920 --> 0:43:58.160 other companies, but like they're doing it, like they absolutely 0:43:58.239 --> 0:44:00.640 are doing the payd a loan shit. And I mentioned 0:44:00.640 --> 0:44:03.799 Alibaba here because in late twenty twenty, Jack Ma who's 0:44:03.840 --> 0:44:06.719 the founder of Alli Baba, just like disappears. He's just 0:44:06.840 --> 0:44:09.719 gone for like several months, no nobody knows where he is, 0:44:10.320 --> 0:44:13.520 and then he reappears in like twenty twenty one, but 0:44:13.600 --> 0:44:17.960 he's not doing tech ceo stuff anymore. He's doing like 0:44:18.640 --> 0:44:23.080 weird public education tours in like rural China. And this 0:44:23.160 --> 0:44:27.719 causes like a huge, a huge like kind of thing 0:44:27.760 --> 0:44:30.120 in the American press because what they're reading it as, 0:44:30.160 --> 0:44:32.759 and they're kind of right, is that there's this in 0:44:32.800 --> 0:44:36.000 twenty twenty one, there's this enormous raft of financial regulations 0:44:36.040 --> 0:44:39.920 on tech companies, and this gus interpreted is like a 0:44:39.960 --> 0:44:42.160 crackdown on chech companies. Like the CCP is trying to 0:44:42.200 --> 0:44:45.040 bring the tech giants in line, like they disappear jack 0:44:45.120 --> 0:44:49.040 Ma and you know, one of the and this is 0:44:49.080 --> 0:44:51.040 something something that a story that gets lost in this 0:44:51.120 --> 0:44:53.239 in the American press is that like one of the 0:44:53.280 --> 0:44:56.640 big things they're trying to do is stop is stop 0:44:56.719 --> 0:44:58.480 all of these fucking companies. I'm turning their apps to 0:44:58.520 --> 0:45:03.560 the pede alone factories. And you know, like I'm I'm 0:45:03.600 --> 0:45:06.960 not like a CCP fan, Like it is well known, 0:45:07.600 --> 0:45:12.680 Like it's like my dislike of the CCP is so 0:45:12.960 --> 0:45:15.160 large that like a non insignificant number of people in 0:45:15.200 --> 0:45:18.080 the US think I work for the CIA, right, But 0:45:18.239 --> 0:45:22.839 like this is like those fucking tech companies they were 0:45:22.960 --> 0:45:26.360 like they were like like on the edge of completely 0:45:26.440 --> 0:45:29.520 annihilating the Chinese economy. They were very they got very 0:45:29.680 --> 0:45:33.680 very close to just like reducing like enormous swaths of 0:45:33.719 --> 0:45:36.280 the entire Chinese population and to like peer at based 0:45:36.280 --> 0:45:38.840 debt pionage. It was a fucking disaster. And this is 0:45:38.880 --> 0:45:41.400 part this is a big part of why this like 0:45:41.480 --> 0:45:44.239 tech crackdown came in because the CCP was like, holy shit, 0:45:44.640 --> 0:45:47.440 if you guys do this like you're actually going to 0:45:48.320 --> 0:45:51.040 like like you're you're gonna You're gonna fucking nuke the 0:45:51.080 --> 0:45:53.719 Chinese economy, like we cannot allow every single fucking app 0:45:53.760 --> 0:45:56.680 to be a paid a loan like service and things. 0:45:56.800 --> 0:45:59.000 I mean, it's still not great now, but it things 0:45:59.040 --> 0:46:01.279 have gotten a lot less bad in the in the 0:46:01.280 --> 0:46:05.360 payday loan like thing since then. But you know, again 0:46:05.400 --> 0:46:09.360 like it it it had to get bad enough that 0:46:09.400 --> 0:46:11.000 your flashlight, we're trying to get your take out of 0:46:11.000 --> 0:46:13.160 payday loan for the CCP to actually like go after 0:46:13.200 --> 0:46:16.719 their like tech giant darlings. And I think what happened 0:46:17.600 --> 0:46:23.640 is that I think what happened is that Colin Huang 0:46:24.000 --> 0:46:28.680 like saw which way the wind was blowing, and she 0:46:28.920 --> 0:46:31.000 was like, Okay, there's gonna be a giant crackdown now 0:46:31.040 --> 0:46:32.920 now two wits credit. This is the only time I 0:46:32.960 --> 0:46:36.319 will give PDD credit for anything. PDD actually didn't do 0:46:36.360 --> 0:46:39.560 the payday loan shit. I think because Colin Huang was 0:46:39.760 --> 0:46:42.000 just slight was like smart enough to be like, this 0:46:42.040 --> 0:46:45.200 is a fucking terrible idea, Like if we try to 0:46:45.239 --> 0:46:48.440 get our like rural customer base hooked on pay day loans, 0:46:48.480 --> 0:46:50.799 all these people are gonna just be completely broke in 0:46:50.960 --> 0:46:55.840 like nine months. So PDD doesn't do it, but she 0:46:56.160 --> 0:46:58.760 takes this moment like he picks twenty like July twenty 0:46:58.760 --> 0:47:01.279 twenty eight, which is like a couple months before Jack 0:47:01.280 --> 0:47:03.120 Modest spears, and he just fucking nopes and he's like 0:47:03.160 --> 0:47:07.600 I'm out and yeah, like things, you know, and he 0:47:07.760 --> 0:47:11.120 picked a good time, and this meant that, like, you know, 0:47:11.160 --> 0:47:14.360 he never really faced any consequences for you know, he 0:47:14.840 --> 0:47:17.320 wasn't really caught up in the crackdown. He got out fine, 0:47:18.200 --> 0:47:21.359 and you know, he picked he picked the right time 0:47:21.400 --> 0:47:23.759 to do it, and pdd's future in America was still 0:47:23.760 --> 0:47:27.360 ahead of it. But when the Chinese media began to 0:47:27.400 --> 0:47:29.600 uncover the dark side of PDD in twenty twenty one, 0:47:29.640 --> 0:47:32.759 Colin Kwang was nowhere to be found. And that is 0:47:32.800 --> 0:47:37.840 what we're covering tomorrow. We haven't even gotten to the bad. 0:47:37.719 --> 0:47:41.560 Stuff yet, haven't even got to Temu proper. 0:47:41.880 --> 0:47:45.120 Yeah, well the thing about Temu, and we will get 0:47:45.120 --> 0:47:48.880 to Timo next episode. But Temu's like a twenty twenty 0:47:48.920 --> 0:47:52.040 two thing, right, so it's really reacent. It's only been 0:47:52.040 --> 0:47:54.759 around for like two years, which means that if we're 0:47:54.760 --> 0:47:56.719 going to talk about this, ninety percent of it is 0:47:56.760 --> 0:48:01.120 going to be PDD because PDD is like ninety years old. 0:48:02.520 --> 0:48:05.440 But yeah, tune in tomorrow for a bunch of absolutely 0:48:05.520 --> 0:48:09.239 harrowing ship. Yeah, this is this is this is it 0:48:09.239 --> 0:48:09.960 could happen here. 0:48:10.239 --> 0:48:14.480 We loved so exciting. I love learning about new harrowing ship. 0:48:29.880 --> 0:48:32.200 Welcome to Jacob app and here a podcast featuring a 0:48:32.280 --> 0:48:34.880 sound activated strobe light that you can't see because this 0:48:35.080 --> 0:48:37.520 is not a visual podcast. 0:48:37.640 --> 0:48:41.280 Unless you have like setasthesia and you could like start 0:48:41.800 --> 0:48:46.919 hearing seeing the strobe through our voices, in which case 0:48:46.920 --> 0:48:47.480 is good for you. 0:48:48.520 --> 0:48:52.640 Wish that was me? Yeah, So that that's Garrison. I'm 0:48:52.680 --> 0:48:55.760 the We're back again. We're back again for a descented 0:48:55.800 --> 0:48:59.040 to hell. Yeah. So, so last episode we talked about 0:48:59.120 --> 0:49:01.800 Colin Huang and the rise of PDD, which is China's 0:49:01.800 --> 0:49:05.440 second largest shopping app and the Chinese version of the app, Temu. 0:49:06.800 --> 0:49:10.319 So we're now in the post Colin Wong era, an 0:49:10.360 --> 0:49:13.600 era I think actually might be worse than the original era, 0:49:13.640 --> 0:49:16.719 which is kind of stunning. But you know, here we are, 0:49:16.840 --> 0:49:21.680 here we are, and this era actually starts really well 0:49:21.880 --> 0:49:24.680 for PDD. This is like twenty twenty twenty twenty one, 0:49:24.960 --> 0:49:29.520 China's lockdowns are actually incredible for PDD because, as we 0:49:29.520 --> 0:49:32.560 talked about last episode, pdd's strategy is group shopping, right, 0:49:32.600 --> 0:49:34.399 It's about getting a bunch of people to buy things 0:49:34.440 --> 0:49:36.799 together to make it cheaper, this thus pulling in more 0:49:36.800 --> 0:49:41.880 in our customers. Now China had real lockdowns, and in 0:49:41.920 --> 0:49:45.160 a real lockdown, this is increasingly how people got food. 0:49:45.560 --> 0:49:48.680 You know, the strictness of the lockdowns very across, like 0:49:48.680 --> 0:49:50.640 depending on what province you're in, right, But so like 0:49:50.680 --> 0:49:53.520 my family was an inner Mongolia and an inner mongolia 0:49:53.560 --> 0:49:55.879 in like the first lockdowns, you could send you could 0:49:55.880 --> 0:49:59.440 only send one member of your family outside per week 0:50:00.920 --> 0:50:04.360 to like, you know, to go get groceries. Otherwise everyone 0:50:04.400 --> 0:50:07.000 else fed all times has to stay indoors. And this 0:50:07.040 --> 0:50:09.560 meant that people started pulling together to like all buy 0:50:09.640 --> 0:50:12.080 groceries and then sending one person out to like go 0:50:12.160 --> 0:50:15.880 pick up the delivery. And this this ingrained PDDs like 0:50:15.920 --> 0:50:20.240 fundamental strategy of like buying into the into the consiousness 0:50:20.239 --> 0:50:21.960 of the Chinese public because they've just been doing it 0:50:22.000 --> 0:50:26.040 for like a year, right, And as twenty twenty, for 0:50:26.080 --> 0:50:30.440 a word on PDD like skyrockets. This this is this. 0:50:30.560 --> 0:50:32.839 The period from like twenty twenty to like twenty twenty 0:50:32.920 --> 0:50:35.359 four has been the period where pdd's grown them most. 0:50:35.400 --> 0:50:37.400 I mean, it was already pretty big before then, but 0:50:37.520 --> 0:50:40.640 now you know, it's it's now like the main competitor 0:50:40.640 --> 0:50:44.520 of Alibaba. It was like the previously unassailable like online 0:50:44.560 --> 0:50:48.840 shopping giant. The company grew so much that it forced 0:50:48.960 --> 0:50:51.680 the other like shopping companies to get into the fruit 0:50:51.719 --> 0:50:54.480 market because it was like clobbering them there so badly. 0:50:55.239 --> 0:50:58.920 So yeah, it was wild. But then a bunch of 0:50:58.960 --> 0:51:02.800 absolutely terrible stories broke about PDD in both the Chinese 0:51:02.800 --> 0:51:06.760 and American press. So we're gonna start with the stuff 0:51:06.840 --> 0:51:10.760 that's I guess less bad, and then it's gonna get worse. 0:51:12.200 --> 0:51:19.640 So question number one is the PDD at malware. All right, 0:51:19.760 --> 0:51:22.560 we're just really jumping right in here. Oh, this is 0:51:22.719 --> 0:51:25.000 this is the mild shit, this is the Are we 0:51:25.000 --> 0:51:29.160 allout to say this legally? Yeah? It's well, here's the thing. 0:51:29.200 --> 0:51:31.799 So Google play removed the app from its play store. 0:51:31.920 --> 0:51:35.200 Oh okay, so all right, so so okay, we need 0:51:35.239 --> 0:51:36.960 to be very specific about what we're talking. It's too 0:51:36.960 --> 0:51:39.359 bad for Google that it's probably too bad for you. Yeah, 0:51:39.400 --> 0:51:41.719 so very specifically, this is we're the thing we're talking 0:51:41.719 --> 0:51:45.160 about right now is not Temu. We're talking specifically about 0:51:45.440 --> 0:51:48.600 the Chinese version of the app, PDD, And this was 0:51:48.640 --> 0:51:50.680 released on the Google Play Store in like the mid 0:51:50.719 --> 0:51:53.000 twenty the mid early like like I think it's like twenty. 0:51:52.880 --> 0:51:54.400 Twenty one or something. 0:51:55.160 --> 0:51:59.520 And okay, so this again, and to be clear again, 0:51:59.560 --> 0:52:03.640 this is not this is specifically the Android version of PDD. 0:52:03.800 --> 0:52:06.680 And this is interesting too because so most people in 0:52:06.760 --> 0:52:12.680 China like don't use Android for you or sorry, they don't. 0:52:12.680 --> 0:52:14.880 They don't. They don't use Google Play right, like they 0:52:15.120 --> 0:52:16.799 don't that that's not like the App store where they 0:52:16.800 --> 0:52:20.799 get their apps from. So when PDD released, like their 0:52:20.960 --> 0:52:23.080 app on the app store, this is this is them 0:52:23.120 --> 0:52:24.800 specifically going to the Western market. 0:52:25.880 --> 0:52:28.680 And did they have infrastructure set up in the States 0:52:28.680 --> 0:52:31.680 to support this type of like drop shipping or like 0:52:31.719 --> 0:52:32.399 how do they. 0:52:32.440 --> 0:52:35.160 Yeah, we'll get into it. 0:52:35.160 --> 0:52:36.880 It was like kind of later a little bit like 0:52:36.960 --> 0:52:41.239 gig economy stuff in China, But how how are they 0:52:41.280 --> 0:52:41.520 going to. 0:52:41.560 --> 0:52:46.160 Move that FedEx? Okay, yeah, right, well we'll get into 0:52:46.200 --> 0:52:48.600 that more later. We're talking about Timmo. This first one 0:52:48.760 --> 0:52:51.319 didn't like it didn't have that many users because it 0:52:51.360 --> 0:52:56.240 was just like the Chinese app. But like here, okay, 0:52:56.360 --> 0:52:58.120 so okay, there's something we also we need to get 0:52:58.160 --> 0:52:59.440 out of the way first, which is that there's like 0:52:59.480 --> 0:53:02.520 a massive panic in the US about Chinese apps being 0:53:02.640 --> 0:53:08.040 like Chinese government trojan horses, like especially TikTok. So unfortunately, 0:53:08.080 --> 0:53:09.839 before we start this we have to sort out kind 0:53:09.880 --> 0:53:12.400 of or like you have to make a judgment about 0:53:12.400 --> 0:53:15.360 what level of apps surveillance is, like the level of 0:53:15.400 --> 0:53:17.080 apps are veilance you get in the US because all 0:53:17.120 --> 0:53:20.040 of your apps are spying on you, and then what 0:53:20.239 --> 0:53:23.439 is like above and beyond the like quote unquote normal 0:53:23.520 --> 0:53:27.719 level of spying and like TikTok is TikTok is unbelievably invasive, right, 0:53:27.760 --> 0:53:29.719 Like it is true, it's a privacy nightmare, but like 0:53:29.840 --> 0:53:32.799 so are most apps, Like TikTok's worse than normal. But 0:53:32.840 --> 0:53:36.000 it's not that TikTok is like the Chinese communists. So 0:53:36.719 --> 0:53:38.120 this is something we're gonna get into. And this is 0:53:38.120 --> 0:53:41.280 this is true with pdu too. The US actually gets 0:53:41.320 --> 0:53:44.080 like the stripped down, cucked not as bad version of 0:53:44.160 --> 0:53:47.759 Chinese apps like TikTok does not have a bunch of 0:53:47.760 --> 0:53:51.480 the like integration stuff that that Doyen, the Chinese like 0:53:51.560 --> 0:53:53.600 version of it has. We're like Douyen has this thing 0:53:53.640 --> 0:53:55.640 where like I guess Google's kind of doing it now, 0:53:55.680 --> 0:53:59.440 but like you can directly, like like an influencer can 0:53:59.480 --> 0:54:01.320 hold up a p and you could tap the product 0:54:01.400 --> 0:54:05.200 and go buy it. Google is trying to do that now. Yeah, 0:54:05.640 --> 0:54:08.279 but China had that, like like Dueyan said that for 0:54:08.320 --> 0:54:10.680 like ages, right, It's like so like the versions of 0:54:10.680 --> 0:54:12.439 the apps that we get here are actually less bad 0:54:12.480 --> 0:54:14.880 than the Chinese ones, which makes the whole panic so 0:54:15.040 --> 0:54:17.480 funny to me. It's like no, no, no, like they're sending 0:54:17.520 --> 0:54:20.120 you like a better version of the app. 0:54:20.400 --> 0:54:24.560 Like, well, that's because when Uncle Sam calls in our version, 0:54:24.600 --> 0:54:28.520 we have to take out all of the maoist influences. Yeah, 0:54:29.560 --> 0:54:32.120 I don't know whatever whatever, All. 0:54:32.080 --> 0:54:35.480 Right, all right, so you know, look like so we 0:54:35.520 --> 0:54:36.920 have to we have to sort out of the difference 0:54:36.920 --> 0:54:38.960 between stuff that's just like the weird moral panic and 0:54:38.960 --> 0:54:43.440 what what's actually malware. So CNN did an investigation of 0:54:43.520 --> 0:54:46.160 this app. So originally there was a Chinese company that 0:54:46.239 --> 0:54:49.160 a Chinese security company was looked at this app and 0:54:49.280 --> 0:54:53.160 was like, they're using a bunch of Android exploits, Like 0:54:53.400 --> 0:54:57.040 they're like they're using like they're they're they're effectively hacking 0:54:57.080 --> 0:54:59.640 your phone, right, They're they're they're they're deploying a bunch 0:54:59.640 --> 0:55:02.360 of x of things that are like broken in in 0:55:02.960 --> 0:55:06.720 like in Android and allowing you like this like lesson 0:55:06.719 --> 0:55:08.040 do stuff and I supposed to be able to do. 0:55:08.520 --> 0:55:11.240 And so CNN brought in a bunch of different security 0:55:11.400 --> 0:55:13.880 like analysts and like they brought in security companies like 0:55:13.920 --> 0:55:15.320 look at it, and here's what they found. 0:55:15.560 --> 0:55:17.080 Well, I don't know if you'd trust this c it EN. 0:55:17.120 --> 0:55:19.720 They're literally called the Communist News Network. 0:55:22.120 --> 0:55:25.160 Quote. The app was able to continue running in the 0:55:25.160 --> 0:55:28.200 background and prevent itself from being uninstalled, which allowed it 0:55:28.239 --> 0:55:32.440 to boost its monthly active rate right hyper on it. 0:55:32.440 --> 0:55:33.759 I don't know how pronounce this guy's name. I'm so 0:55:33.800 --> 0:55:36.040 sorry this guy. This guy's this guy's name has an 0:55:36.120 --> 0:55:39.120 umlot over the oh. I'm an expert at pronouncing foreign names. 0:55:39.960 --> 0:55:40.400 Give it to me. 0:55:41.080 --> 0:55:45.399 It's h y pp umlot o n e n good luck. 0:55:46.200 --> 0:55:46.560 You know what. 0:55:46.640 --> 0:55:49.960 I'm just gonna take a I'm gonna. 0:55:49.760 --> 0:55:51.880 Put in I'm so sorry to this guy, who I 0:55:51.880 --> 0:55:55.560 think is fine. This guy's security analyst said it also 0:55:55.600 --> 0:55:58.560 had the ability to spy on competitors by tracking activity 0:55:58.560 --> 0:56:00.799 on other shopping apps and getting in information from them. 0:56:00.800 --> 0:56:05.080 He added, Totin, which is like another guy, found PDD 0:56:05.160 --> 0:56:09.279 to have exploited about fifty Android system vulnerabilities. Most of 0:56:09.320 --> 0:56:12.759 these exploits were tailor made for customized parts known as 0:56:12.840 --> 0:56:16.920 original Equipment Manufacturer code, which tends to be audited less 0:56:17.040 --> 0:56:21.160 than ASoP, which is like another kind of code and 0:56:21.200 --> 0:56:25.080 therefore prone to more vulnerabilities. He said PDD had also 0:56:25.200 --> 0:56:29.759 exploited a number of AOSP vulnerabilities, including one that was 0:56:29.800 --> 0:56:32.840 flagged by Totioniin to Google in February twenty twenty two. 0:56:33.040 --> 0:56:35.960 Google fixed this bug in March. He said, I've never 0:56:36.000 --> 0:56:40.960 seen anything like it. It's like super expansive. Serg Totionin, 0:56:41.040 --> 0:56:44.759 android security expert, He's like guy said that, sorry, I've 0:56:44.800 --> 0:56:47.480 never seen and Android Tracin said, I've never seen anything 0:56:47.520 --> 0:56:50.719 like this. It's like super expansive. According to Tosian, the 0:56:50.760 --> 0:56:55.719 exploits allowed PDD to access users location, contacts, calendars, notification, 0:56:55.800 --> 0:56:58.640 and photo albums without their consents. They were also able 0:56:58.680 --> 0:57:02.040 to change systems, setting an access users social media accounts 0:57:02.040 --> 0:57:05.920 and chats. He said, Now that is pretty bad. I 0:57:06.000 --> 0:57:08.200 will I will mention that like a lot of your 0:57:08.200 --> 0:57:11.040 normal apps can also do shit like that. Yeah, like 0:57:11.080 --> 0:57:13.240 that's stuff that you can get out of, like Google, 0:57:13.680 --> 0:57:16.600 but some of it's not good. The other thing that 0:57:16.680 --> 0:57:20.480 they were doing is they're doing these things called privileged 0:57:20.600 --> 0:57:23.240 escalation attacks, where they're trying to get like a higher 0:57:23.320 --> 0:57:25.240 level of privilege on the system so they can run 0:57:25.280 --> 0:57:26.760 code and not supposed to be able to. So you 0:57:26.800 --> 0:57:29.720 know how like sometimes when you're running something at a computer, 0:57:29.760 --> 0:57:31.480 you have to run it as admin so the thing 0:57:31.520 --> 0:57:32.160 actually works. 0:57:32.480 --> 0:57:37.920 Yeah, like Discord, Yeah, I actually Discord. I've been trying 0:57:37.960 --> 0:57:40.600 to stream Alan Wake two to my friends and oh 0:57:40.680 --> 0:57:44.440 my god, it has been such a nightmare. I'm gonna 0:57:44.440 --> 0:57:46.680 personally write the CEO of Discord a letter. 0:57:47.280 --> 0:57:51.480 And yeah. But like so like so there they're like 0:57:51.720 --> 0:57:54.680 the way the system security works is there's certain levels 0:57:54.680 --> 0:57:56.360 of users that are allowed to do certain things and 0:57:56.400 --> 0:57:58.280 certain people who aren't, and this is supposed to stop 0:57:58.320 --> 0:58:01.360 people from running malicious code. And so they're doing these 0:58:01.360 --> 0:58:03.640 privileged escalation attacks where they're trying to be able to 0:58:03.680 --> 0:58:06.560 like do stuff that only admins can do, And so 0:58:06.680 --> 0:58:08.880 I showed this to it. So I was trying to 0:58:08.880 --> 0:58:10.760 get a gauge on how much of this is real 0:58:10.800 --> 0:58:12.720 and how much of this is insane, And so I 0:58:12.720 --> 0:58:14.880 showed I showed it to my friend who's a software engineer, 0:58:14.880 --> 0:58:18.320 and he was like, what the fuck? So this is 0:58:19.000 --> 0:58:21.760 this is very tetfically the privileged escalation attacks on the end, 0:58:21.760 --> 0:58:24.800 the attack on the like the original equipment manufacturer code, 0:58:24.840 --> 0:58:26.800 like the OEM stuff that's just not normal, Like that 0:58:26.880 --> 0:58:30.240 is that is actual malware that is like not that 0:58:30.360 --> 0:58:32.320 is not normal app bullshit that like, this thing is 0:58:32.360 --> 0:58:34.560 trying to hack your phone. So in twenty twenty three, 0:58:34.640 --> 0:58:37.120 the like Google pulled the app from the store because 0:58:37.160 --> 0:58:38.800 everyone was like, what the fuck. Wait, this is just 0:58:38.880 --> 0:58:42.080 literally malware. I'm gonna I'm gonna so so what were 0:58:42.080 --> 0:58:45.400 they trying to do? Here's CNN again. It was in 0:58:45.440 --> 0:58:48.440 twenty twenty, according to a current PDD employee, that the 0:58:48.440 --> 0:58:50.840 company set up a team of about one hundred engineers 0:58:50.840 --> 0:58:54.360 and product managers to dig for vulnerabilities and Android phones, 0:58:55.120 --> 0:58:57.680 develop ways to exploit them and turn that into profit. 0:58:58.160 --> 0:59:01.280 According to the source who who quested anonymity for feear 0:59:01.320 --> 0:59:04.840 of for fear of reprisals, the company only targeted users 0:59:04.840 --> 0:59:07.760 in rural areas and smaller towns initially, while of winning 0:59:07.840 --> 0:59:11.640 users in megacities such as Beijing and Shanghai. The goal 0:59:11.800 --> 0:59:14.160 was to reduce the risk of being exposed, they said. 0:59:14.600 --> 0:59:17.880 By collecting expansive data on user activities, the company was 0:59:17.920 --> 0:59:21.000 able to create a comprehensive portrait of the users' habits, interests, 0:59:21.000 --> 0:59:24.160 and preferences. According to the source, this also allowed it 0:59:24.200 --> 0:59:27.440 to improve its machine learning model to offer more personalized 0:59:27.440 --> 0:59:31.120 push notifications and ads, attracting users to open the app 0:59:31.120 --> 0:59:33.760 and place orders. They said, So this all makes perfect 0:59:33.760 --> 0:59:37.360 sense with like how we know that PDD operates right, Like, 0:59:38.280 --> 0:59:40.640 you know, they're trying to build detailed profiles or rural 0:59:40.680 --> 0:59:43.200 customers they can serve the more efficient ads, and they're 0:59:43.200 --> 0:59:46.000 doing it by apparently just straight up running an in 0:59:46.040 --> 0:59:51.400 house hacking team. I got pretty large one. Oh so 0:59:51.480 --> 0:59:55.680 they supposedly that team got like acted and they don't 0:59:55.680 --> 1:00:01.200 do it anymore, but who knows. So, Okay, this is 1:00:01.280 --> 1:00:04.840 not even close to the most batshit thing that PDD 1:00:04.920 --> 1:00:08.560 gets up to. Okay, we're gonna escalate up the how 1:00:08.600 --> 1:00:10.400 weird this stuff is. So. One of the things that 1:00:10.400 --> 1:00:12.440 that PDD has a six tone och reporting is that 1:00:12.480 --> 1:00:15.720 they have these really strict non compete clauses that prevent 1:00:15.800 --> 1:00:17.920 people from like so if you if you take a 1:00:18.000 --> 1:00:21.480 job here and you get fired or eat, like you leave, 1:00:21.720 --> 1:00:23.560 you can't take another job at a tech company for 1:00:23.600 --> 1:00:26.120 like two years. This is like fucking like any tech company, 1:00:26.280 --> 1:00:28.800 like fucking like, I don't know, they're they're really expensive. 1:00:28.840 --> 1:00:31.400 It's like like fucking like setting up your grandma's website 1:00:31.520 --> 1:00:33.040 like might get you in trouble. It's like it's it's 1:00:33.160 --> 1:00:34.840 a real disaster. We have these in the US too, 1:00:34.880 --> 1:00:37.000 and they absolutely suck. So I think there was a 1:00:37.120 --> 1:00:42.240 ruling about them, an FTC ruling to ban them recently. 1:00:43.320 --> 1:00:46.040 Maybe oh no, they're proposed, it hasn't gone through yet 1:00:47.000 --> 1:00:48.760 trying to get rid of them. But yeah, there's they're 1:00:48.800 --> 1:00:50.440 in the US two. But these ones are really strict 1:00:50.440 --> 1:00:53.680 and apparently they're like PDD is really aggressive about it 1:00:53.720 --> 1:00:56.400 to the point where like people people will take other 1:00:56.520 --> 1:00:59.960 jobs under fake identities and like pdd's hr will like 1:01:00.160 --> 1:01:03.560 track them down. Oh wow, yeah, like they're they're like 1:01:03.600 --> 1:01:07.040 headhunting these people well, like like inverse headhunt, like they're 1:01:07.080 --> 1:01:09.440 they're like they're literally just hunting down people trying who 1:01:09.480 --> 1:01:12.480 are trying to get like jobs, right, And this apparently 1:01:12.560 --> 1:01:15.840 led people to adopt secret identities to like hide, right, 1:01:15.880 --> 1:01:18.160 And so this kid is something I I did not 1:01:18.400 --> 1:01:21.160 believe the first time I read it, which is that 1:01:21.240 --> 1:01:24.400 apparently and I originally read this in NIK, which is 1:01:24.480 --> 1:01:26.080 usually reliable, but I read this and I was like, 1:01:26.120 --> 1:01:28.320 no way. Uh. The thing that they said was that 1:01:28.360 --> 1:01:31.640 employees at work, like who work for PDD apparently use 1:01:31.680 --> 1:01:34.920 pseudonyms and like never tell each like almost never tell 1:01:34.920 --> 1:01:39.080 each other they're actual names. That's I mean, that makes sense. 1:01:40.040 --> 1:01:44.160 And apparently also they're banned from like like the information level. 1:01:44.240 --> 1:01:47.480 Information control was so strict that like you can't you're 1:01:47.480 --> 1:01:50.200 not allowed to know what like the structure of another 1:01:50.280 --> 1:01:53.280 work group is. And like I read this, I was 1:01:53.280 --> 1:01:54.959 like I don't believe this, right, And then I started 1:01:55.040 --> 1:01:58.000 running into like other outlets like Financial Times, was like yeah, no, no, 1:01:58.040 --> 1:02:00.240 apparently they they talked to they they talked to people 1:02:00.240 --> 1:02:02.120 who work for the company. They're like, yeah, everyone uses pseudonyms. 1:02:02.120 --> 1:02:03.760 I didn't fucking know anyone's real name or like there 1:02:03.840 --> 1:02:06.360 was like one person who's real name that I know wild. 1:02:06.960 --> 1:02:08.520 I don't know why they do. I've never seen I've 1:02:08.560 --> 1:02:12.040 literally never seen this before with any company. It's it's 1:02:12.080 --> 1:02:16.880 fucking nuts. I got nothing. Yeah, I do you know who? 1:02:17.200 --> 1:02:19.200 No one had this company knows my real name. So 1:02:19.960 --> 1:02:23.000 that's true. I do actually operate by a pseudonym. Yeah that. 1:02:24.480 --> 1:02:26.840 Is not like a sizable portion of the cool Zone 1:02:26.840 --> 1:02:27.880 Media team, but. 1:02:29.400 --> 1:02:31.720 All of us are fake names. Robert Evans, that's not 1:02:31.840 --> 1:02:37.320 Robert Evans, real Robert Evans. It was the producer of 1:02:37.360 --> 1:02:40.560 that movie. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. 1:02:40.600 --> 1:02:45.640 Anyway, do you know who also has trustworthy names that 1:02:45.680 --> 1:02:48.840 you can trust these products? 1:02:49.120 --> 1:02:49.360 Woo? 1:03:01.720 --> 1:03:05.760 So true? Jeff, Wow, that was a really funny joke. Bill, Oh, 1:03:05.800 --> 1:03:06.280 we're back. 1:03:06.480 --> 1:03:06.760 Sorry. 1:03:06.760 --> 1:03:09.200 I was just talking to the two fake fake name 1:03:09.240 --> 1:03:11.360 people who are listening in on our call right now. 1:03:11.840 --> 1:03:15.000 Me I continue. So this is where we get to 1:03:15.120 --> 1:03:21.120 the truly bleak stuff. So all right, in twenty twenty one, 1:03:21.280 --> 1:03:27.120 one of pdd's employees in shing Juhn just worked worked 1:03:27.160 --> 1:03:29.560 a shift, came home, and the distrait up fucking died 1:03:29.560 --> 1:03:34.280 in her bed from overwork. This this was a you know, 1:03:34.560 --> 1:03:37.600 this very quickly turns into a giant media thing because 1:03:37.800 --> 1:03:40.200 this woman like she's in she's in really good health, 1:03:40.240 --> 1:03:44.000 and she just fucking is worked so hard that she 1:03:44.080 --> 1:03:47.520 lays down he her bed dies. Then a worker who 1:03:47.600 --> 1:03:50.720 posted a video of an ambulance outside of pdd's headquarters 1:03:50.720 --> 1:03:54.320 with the caption another brave warrior of PDD has fallen, 1:03:55.000 --> 1:03:59.280 which great caption, terrible situation, great caption. He gets fired 1:03:59.320 --> 1:04:04.560 for it, and then very quickly like after that, so 1:04:05.120 --> 1:04:08.640 they have like a the company has like a Q 1:04:08.800 --> 1:04:11.840 and a thing like if effectively, what happens is someone 1:04:11.880 --> 1:04:14.400 responds to like one of their social media accounts with 1:04:14.680 --> 1:04:17.800 and asks them what do you think of the PDD 1:04:17.960 --> 1:04:21.680 worker who died after working overtime? Should PDD bear responsibility? 1:04:22.120 --> 1:04:27.720 Their corporate account responded and I quote, look at those 1:04:27.760 --> 1:04:30.920 in the underclass, who isn't exchanging life for money. I 1:04:30.960 --> 1:04:33.280 never thought that this is a problem of capital, but 1:04:33.320 --> 1:04:36.840 as a problem of this society. We live in an 1:04:36.920 --> 1:04:39.840 era where we spend our whole lives working hard. You 1:04:39.880 --> 1:04:42.320 can choose a comfortable life if you accept the consequences 1:04:42.320 --> 1:04:45.680 of comfortable living. People control how much effort they make. 1:04:45.760 --> 1:04:46.640 Everyone does. 1:04:48.000 --> 1:04:51.920 I can't believe this people who genuinely like advocate that 1:04:52.160 --> 1:04:57.000 China is a like communist country, so strange, that's insane. 1:04:57.800 --> 1:05:01.600 They're only talking like God. 1:05:00.840 --> 1:05:02.960 This is this is like this and this is like 1:05:03.000 --> 1:05:04.360 and this is like this is one of the things 1:05:04.360 --> 1:05:08.040 that like I just like I don't know, like I 1:05:08.360 --> 1:05:10.800 just can't fucking get over this ship because like I 1:05:10.880 --> 1:05:13.040 have a bunch of fucking family in China, And do 1:05:13.040 --> 1:05:15.280 you know do they fucking quote Karl Marx, No, they 1:05:15.360 --> 1:05:18.880 quote Steve Jobs because they're all these like fucking insane 1:05:19.160 --> 1:05:24.680 entrepreneur bullshit, like like fucking literally like grind set like 1:05:25.200 --> 1:05:29.200 until you straps. Yeah, it's insane. It's like, no, it's 1:05:29.040 --> 1:05:30.680 not your fault that you work too hard. This is 1:05:30.720 --> 1:05:35.160 actually labor's fault and not capital like this. This fucking 1:05:35.200 --> 1:05:37.240 blew up in the Chinese media when people got like 1:05:37.520 --> 1:05:41.600 people got really fucking pissed, and PDD at first was like, no, 1:05:41.760 --> 1:05:43.280 this is a fake post. We never did it, and 1:05:43.280 --> 1:05:44.680 the people were like, no, no, it's not. This is 1:05:45.000 --> 1:05:47.080 we found the post. Right, they take they take it down. 1:05:47.120 --> 1:05:50.120 People like had saved screenshots, and eventually the company was 1:05:50.120 --> 1:05:53.120 forced to admit that it was actually their account, but 1:05:53.160 --> 1:05:55.960 then they said that it was a social media contractor 1:05:55.960 --> 1:05:58.680 who put it on the corporate account. Quote by mistake. 1:05:59.040 --> 1:06:04.040 Oh sure, yeah, that's like that. That's like me when 1:06:04.040 --> 1:06:09.120 I search my twin peaks not Safe for work fan 1:06:09.280 --> 1:06:11.640 art on the coolest media account. It was a mistake, guys, 1:06:12.200 --> 1:06:15.000 didn't didn't didn't mean to post it there. I don't 1:06:15.000 --> 1:06:17.480 know how that happened, it got it got past the VODs. 1:06:17.520 --> 1:06:21.040 I don't know how. Yeah, and you know, people, people 1:06:21.120 --> 1:06:25.120 understandably are not happy. Like and then eleven days later, 1:06:26.000 --> 1:06:31.000 a PDD employee jumps off a fucking building again, also 1:06:31.240 --> 1:06:34.960 because they've been worked so hard. And this this is 1:06:34.960 --> 1:06:38.400 where we need to talk about pdd's labor conditions, because 1:06:38.880 --> 1:06:44.680 they are fucking appalling. Here's sixth Tone. A former PDD 1:06:44.800 --> 1:06:47.520 employee who left the company a year ago told sixth 1:06:47.560 --> 1:06:51.640 Tone under conditions of anonymity, that excessive work hours are 1:06:51.640 --> 1:06:54.920 common practice around eight months after he joined PDD in 1:06:54.960 --> 1:06:57.600 early twenty nineteen. He said employees were told they need 1:06:57.640 --> 1:07:01.720 to work at least three hundred hours per month, amounting 1:07:01.760 --> 1:07:04.320 to nearly twelve hours per day, six days a week. 1:07:05.480 --> 1:07:07.280 We're gonna get more into that that's a schedule called 1:07:07.400 --> 1:07:10.000 nine nine six, where you work from nine am to 1:07:10.040 --> 1:07:13.800 nine pm, six days a week. This is incredibly common 1:07:13.800 --> 1:07:16.800 and try This is actually a good schedule. In a 1:07:16.800 --> 1:07:19.919 lot of Chinese work environments, it can get way worse 1:07:20.000 --> 1:07:23.360 than that. Here's another quote from that six Tone article. 1:07:24.200 --> 1:07:26.480 The company cares a lot about our work hours. It 1:07:26.480 --> 1:07:29.840 has become company culture. Even if staff is finished working, 1:07:30.080 --> 1:07:32.520 if they'll just stay in the office. I was one 1:07:32.560 --> 1:07:34.760 of the lucky ones. I only had to work from 1:07:34.800 --> 1:07:37.960 eleven am to ten pm, and my manager was nice 1:07:38.000 --> 1:07:42.680 to me. This person added that employees arriving after eleven 1:07:42.720 --> 1:07:45.840 am would have their daily wages docked by three hours. 1:07:47.040 --> 1:07:53.240 It's fucking insane. It's nightmarish. That same worker talked about 1:07:53.280 --> 1:07:55.800 how she would like this is a thing that's like 1:07:56.440 --> 1:07:58.120 you see this a lot of different accounts, is that 1:07:58.200 --> 1:08:00.920 people would just literally break down ryeing at their desks 1:08:00.960 --> 1:08:04.600 because they had so they were so overworked. Are these 1:08:04.640 --> 1:08:09.080 like office jobs? These are workers workers? These are fucking 1:08:09.120 --> 1:08:13.400 tech workers, Like right, these are the fucking bougie tech jobs. 1:08:13.440 --> 1:08:15.440 They're not like the Chinese because they're getting overworked in 1:08:15.520 --> 1:08:17.800 like a factory or like an Amazon warehouse. 1:08:18.000 --> 1:08:20.599 Tech workers and this this is the thing about this, right, 1:08:20.640 --> 1:08:23.920 is that like we we only we don't like there 1:08:23.920 --> 1:08:25.960 hasn't been okay, So the Chinese media, this actually like 1:08:25.960 --> 1:08:27.680 becomes a huge thing in the Chinese media, is that 1:08:27.720 --> 1:08:30.360 these people are dying. There was another there's also around 1:08:30.360 --> 1:08:32.559 the same time, a delivery driver lit himself on fire 1:08:33.000 --> 1:08:34.720 like as a protest for like the amount of shit 1:08:34.800 --> 1:08:36.679 that he had to deal with. And this was a big, 1:08:36.760 --> 1:08:40.000 like a huge thing in the Chinese media. But almost 1:08:40.040 --> 1:08:42.519 all of the reporting and the coverage and stuff like 1:08:42.560 --> 1:08:46.600 that was about the tech workers. But like, fucking so 1:08:46.680 --> 1:08:49.880 many people work schedules that are worse than nine ninety six, right, 1:08:50.080 --> 1:08:51.320 Like that is a that is a that is a 1:08:51.320 --> 1:08:53.519 tech workers schedule. Right, there are a lot of places 1:08:53.560 --> 1:08:56.439 where people were fucking way worse shit. The sort of 1:08:56.479 --> 1:09:00.479 countervailing force to it is people who, like you know, 1:09:00.560 --> 1:09:02.400 we talked about this kind of in the Lying Flat episodes. 1:09:02.439 --> 1:09:07.519 It's people working for like one day and then eating 1:09:07.640 --> 1:09:10.560 just like plain rice with some like whatever fucking the 1:09:10.640 --> 1:09:12.639 cheapest thing they can finally they can fucking get out 1:09:12.640 --> 1:09:14.160 of it and not working for two more days and 1:09:14.160 --> 1:09:18.720 working another day. But like it's it's so bad, like 1:09:18.760 --> 1:09:23.960 the little labor conditions are just appalling, And you know, 1:09:24.120 --> 1:09:26.559 like a bunch of stories sort of started coming out 1:09:26.600 --> 1:09:30.800 about how bad PDDs like conditions are. There was one 1:09:30.800 --> 1:09:34.439 on we chat that broke that I saw via six 1:09:34.479 --> 1:09:38.479 tone about the toilet situation in pdd's largest office building. 1:09:39.320 --> 1:09:43.360 So this building has one thousand people per floor, It 1:09:43.400 --> 1:09:50.160 has eight total bathrooms per floor. One thousand people. They 1:09:50.200 --> 1:09:53.280 don't even have one bathroom for every hundred people. 1:09:55.080 --> 1:09:57.519 How does this even function? I mean, like I suppose 1:09:57.520 --> 1:09:59.240 it just does that people are like pea. 1:09:59.120 --> 1:10:02.920 No like people people people fucking like you don't eat 1:10:02.960 --> 1:10:05.880 in the morning, or you try to hold out to 1:10:06.000 --> 1:10:08.040 lunch when you can run to a different building and 1:10:08.040 --> 1:10:10.800 try to use the bathrooms there. But like you know, 1:10:11.479 --> 1:10:13.880 if you try to hold it all day, or you 1:10:13.920 --> 1:10:15.680 just yeah, where you fucking do that? You go, you go. 1:10:15.840 --> 1:10:18.519 You you use your lunch time instead of eating to 1:10:18.920 --> 1:10:24.080 fucking go somewhere else. You starve yourself. There are like 1:10:24.640 --> 1:10:26.840 there's a bunch of reports of guys just like shitting 1:10:26.880 --> 1:10:29.600 in urinals because there's literally wasn't time for them to 1:10:29.720 --> 1:10:33.200 fucking actually like use a stall, so they're just like 1:10:33.360 --> 1:10:37.160 they're they're just like they're they're pooping in urinals. Maybe 1:10:37.200 --> 1:10:40.559 the worst picture I've ever seen in my entire life 1:10:40.680 --> 1:10:43.519 is this is gonna be the episode are PDD started 1:10:43.560 --> 1:10:47.720 installing timers over the toilets to show how long how 1:10:47.760 --> 1:10:50.240 long people had been there. So there's just like a 1:10:50.640 --> 1:10:53.840 like a a fucking clock over you that starts when 1:10:53.880 --> 1:10:56.000 you when you fucking close the door to try to 1:10:56.000 --> 1:10:58.200 get people to go to the bathroom faster. It is 1:10:58.320 --> 1:11:01.760 just appalling the conditions. And again, these are the conditions 1:11:01.800 --> 1:11:08.559 of like the office workers. It's apocalyptically bad. So I 1:11:08.640 --> 1:11:10.880 realized when I was researching this story that I actually 1:11:11.040 --> 1:11:13.840 ran into PDD earlier because I so like before I 1:11:13.840 --> 1:11:15.960 did this story, I hadn't looked into TEMU at all, 1:11:17.240 --> 1:11:19.599 and I realized that I had. I had ran into 1:11:19.640 --> 1:11:22.360 PDD earlier when I was tracking the story about uh 1:11:22.439 --> 1:11:26.200 tech workers banding together to like basically like on GitHub, 1:11:26.240 --> 1:11:28.880 these these office workers, like tech workers like made a 1:11:28.920 --> 1:11:31.920 giant spreadshet where everyone would document their hours and like 1:11:31.920 --> 1:11:34.080 their pay scales and stuff. And it was like, you know, 1:11:34.080 --> 1:11:36.559 it was this sort of like you know, it was 1:11:36.600 --> 1:11:38.719 it was a thing to like demand better labor conditions. Actually, 1:11:38.760 --> 1:11:40.760 i'mretty I'm pretty sure they were actually demanding like the 1:11:41.040 --> 1:11:44.479 workplace democracy too. It was pretty wild. But the thing 1:11:44.520 --> 1:11:47.000 that you get out of that is that PDD has 1:11:47.280 --> 1:11:52.680 the worst the worst hours of any tech company. They are. 1:11:52.760 --> 1:11:56.639 PDD is so bad that other Chinese tech companies got 1:11:56.800 --> 1:11:59.800 worse in order to compete with them. Yeah, it is. 1:12:00.200 --> 1:12:02.720 That is the whole hard thing about setting the bar 1:12:02.840 --> 1:12:06.000 so low is that it allows other people to lower. 1:12:05.720 --> 1:12:09.880 Their own bars. Yeah. Yeah, and it makes just every 1:12:10.000 --> 1:12:14.360 everybody worse. Yeah. And again, like I I can't emphasize 1:12:14.479 --> 1:12:18.240 enough the extent to which these are the office workers, right, Like, 1:12:18.360 --> 1:12:20.240 these are the people who are making the best money 1:12:20.240 --> 1:12:23.559 out of this, who are treated better than like the 1:12:23.600 --> 1:12:26.160 fucking factory workers and the fucking like people in the 1:12:26.240 --> 1:12:28.360 rural areas like fucking doing farming. 1:12:28.640 --> 1:12:28.800 Right. 1:12:30.479 --> 1:12:33.439 But again we don't we don't know a huge amount 1:12:33.600 --> 1:12:36.640 about what those workers' lives are like because they're not 1:12:36.880 --> 1:12:39.720 urban tech workers. And urban tech workers can get their 1:12:39.720 --> 1:12:42.280 stories into the press, but like you know, migrant migrant 1:12:42.320 --> 1:12:45.920 factory workers, rural workers, there's you know, there's just not 1:12:46.040 --> 1:12:48.439 the kind of attention that you can get out of 1:12:48.439 --> 1:12:52.240 a big story about like an urban office building, and 1:12:52.640 --> 1:12:54.439 you know, I mean, these labor conditions are so bad 1:12:54.439 --> 1:12:56.320 that people are just straight up fucking dying. And the 1:12:56.600 --> 1:13:00.000 Chinese government eventually gets involved, like they're they're, they're, they're 1:13:00.120 --> 1:13:03.839 version of the Streame. Court eventually rules that like working 1:13:03.880 --> 1:13:06.759 people twelve hours a day, six days a week is illegal, 1:13:06.800 --> 1:13:09.960 but it doesn't really matter, like a lot of those 1:13:10.000 --> 1:13:14.800 people still have those same schedules. Yeah, and you know, 1:13:14.840 --> 1:13:16.600 and like this this is not a this is not 1:13:16.640 --> 1:13:20.760 a problem that can be solved just by like court rulings. Right, 1:13:21.600 --> 1:13:26.360 So yeah, it's it's really fucking bad. We're gonna we're 1:13:26.400 --> 1:13:29.280 gonna take an ad break. I don't I don't have 1:13:29.320 --> 1:13:42.559 a good transition out of that ship. And we're back. 1:13:42.600 --> 1:13:44.640 So all of this brings us to Temu And it's 1:13:44.680 --> 1:13:46.200 slogan shop like a millionaire. 1:13:47.400 --> 1:13:52.120 So, oh god, this the slogan, it's so it like 1:13:52.560 --> 1:13:55.800 it evokes like a like a nauseous reaction in me. 1:13:56.439 --> 1:14:01.960 It's so it epitomizes everything that is wrong about our 1:14:02.000 --> 1:14:07.080 current way of living and the way we idealize the 1:14:07.200 --> 1:14:10.120 rich and put them on this like pedestal for how 1:14:10.160 --> 1:14:12.640 you should live your life. But also knowing that you 1:14:12.680 --> 1:14:15.519 will never actually be there. Yeah, this is this is 1:14:15.800 --> 1:14:17.160 this is as close as you're going to. 1:14:17.160 --> 1:14:19.559 Get, and it's it's it's also a thing where like 1:14:19.640 --> 1:14:21.639 it's it's a completely unreal lit like it's if that's 1:14:21.640 --> 1:14:24.040 this isn't how fucking billionaires shop like billionaires do? It's 1:14:24.080 --> 1:14:27.200 shop like you think those people fucking shop Like, no, no, 1:14:27.320 --> 1:14:28.559 they don't. They have they have. 1:14:29.320 --> 1:14:33.400 Over over like saving three dollars on on like a mango. 1:14:33.520 --> 1:14:35.479 You're like no, yeah, like what the fuck are you 1:14:35.520 --> 1:14:40.160 talking about? Yeah? So yeah, like I I hate it. 1:14:40.200 --> 1:14:43.280 I hate it so fucking much, you know. So, as 1:14:43.280 --> 1:14:44.760 we said, like this is the time of is the 1:14:44.800 --> 1:14:47.800 American version of PDD. If you're in the US, you've 1:14:47.800 --> 1:14:50.040 probably seen tim owas. Apparently they're not that many of 1:14:50.080 --> 1:14:51.920 them in like other countries, Like I have British friends 1:14:51.920 --> 1:14:53.240 who are just like, what the fuck are you talking 1:14:53.280 --> 1:14:53.600 about me? 1:14:53.640 --> 1:14:56.400 And I've never heard of TIMMU. Before the Super Bowl, 1:14:56.960 --> 1:14:58.360 for whatever it's worth. 1:14:58.439 --> 1:15:02.479 The big play where they were advertising was YouTube. But 1:15:02.520 --> 1:15:05.240 if you're watching YouTube without an app blocker, don't I 1:15:05.280 --> 1:15:07.840 can I don't know if I can legally recommend you 1:15:07.920 --> 1:15:10.840 Probably probably that's on your phone. I can get it. 1:15:10.840 --> 1:15:13.240 It's an app. I don't do it. I don't know 1:15:13.280 --> 1:15:15.960 if it may be legal, it may not be. I 1:15:15.960 --> 1:15:18.559 can't say I will never advocate breaking the law. 1:15:19.040 --> 1:15:21.800 No, definitely, buy YouTube. Yeah yeah, yeah, that's definitely the 1:15:22.000 --> 1:15:22.559 way to go. 1:15:22.880 --> 1:15:27.639 Absolutely. But you know, so like they okay, like most 1:15:27.680 --> 1:15:29.920 famously yeah, as you're saying, like, so they spent twenty 1:15:29.960 --> 1:15:33.120 seven million dollars buying three Super Bowl ads. It's all 1:15:33.240 --> 1:15:37.880 the same ad and it sucked. But you know, okay, 1:15:37.920 --> 1:15:40.479 this is only a fraction of their fucking budget. 1:15:40.560 --> 1:15:40.760 Right. 1:15:41.240 --> 1:15:43.400 Here's from the Wall Street Journal quote. Ten MoU's marketing 1:15:43.479 --> 1:15:47.200 budget reached one point seven billion dollars in twenty twenty three, 1:15:47.200 --> 1:15:50.000 and that figure will grow to nearly three billion in 1:15:50.080 --> 1:15:54.040 twenty twenty four. JP Morgan's analyst estimate. Last year, ten 1:15:54.040 --> 1:15:57.000 MoU's marketing spending contributed to an average loss of seven 1:15:57.080 --> 1:16:01.360 dollars per quarter, according to Goldman Sax estimates. They are 1:16:01.400 --> 1:16:05.519 buying so many ads they are literally driving other companies 1:16:05.560 --> 1:16:08.840 out of the ad market. LIKETCCO has been talking about 1:16:08.840 --> 1:16:10.680 how they can't afford to run ads because ads are 1:16:10.680 --> 1:16:13.519 getting too expensive. Because they're buying so many fucking ads. 1:16:14.640 --> 1:16:19.360 Here's Reuter's quote. US companies dependent on commercial spending or 1:16:19.479 --> 1:16:20.760 spending on commercials, not. 1:16:22.040 --> 1:16:27.040 Yeah, commercial spending. They are buying commercials, yes, yeah, like Facebook, 1:16:27.120 --> 1:16:29.639 they say Meta. I refuse to fucking call that company Beta, 1:16:29.720 --> 1:16:32.559 like fuck that shit. Their Facebook are being saved by 1:16:32.640 --> 1:16:36.400 Chinese retailers like Temu and she In. They represent ten 1:16:36.520 --> 1:16:39.400 per those two companies, just Temu and g In represent 1:16:39.560 --> 1:16:44.360 ten percent of Meta's revenue last year. The Facebook owners said. 1:16:46.040 --> 1:16:48.680 So Temu is hemorrhaging money right now in order to 1:16:48.720 --> 1:16:51.240 do this right, JP Morgan thinks they're losing three billion 1:16:51.320 --> 1:16:53.760 a year. But they also project and to be fair, 1:16:53.800 --> 1:16:58.840 these projections, these projections are wrong so many of the time, 1:16:58.880 --> 1:17:00.519 of so much of the time. But the projecting the 1:17:00.520 --> 1:17:02.479 tenet will be making three point five billion a year 1:17:02.520 --> 1:17:05.640 in twenty twenty seven. And all of this raises the 1:17:05.720 --> 1:17:08.920 question why, and to answer that, we need to get 1:17:08.920 --> 1:17:14.320 into Chinese development economics. So the Chinese economy has a problem, 1:17:14.320 --> 1:17:16.880 and this is a problem that the CCP is known 1:17:16.880 --> 1:17:19.200 about for a long time. It's the problem of turning 1:17:19.360 --> 1:17:22.360 a sort of like a low on the value chain 1:17:22.439 --> 1:17:25.800 like manufacturing economy into a consumption driven economy. Now, the 1:17:25.880 --> 1:17:29.400 problem with transitioning into a consumption driven economy is that 1:17:29.600 --> 1:17:33.160 people don't have enough money to boost consumer demand. The 1:17:33.160 --> 1:17:36.559 Marxist way of saying this is that under capitalism, both 1:17:36.640 --> 1:17:40.479 output and consumption are double determined by your wage. Right, 1:17:40.960 --> 1:17:45.240 Your wage determines both firm output and also how much 1:17:45.280 --> 1:17:48.879 you can consume. Right, in non Marxist terms, Oh no, 1:17:48.880 --> 1:17:50.760 no one has enough money to buy things. They did 1:17:50.760 --> 1:17:55.800 you consumer economy by brother in Christ, You set the wages. Okay, 1:17:56.000 --> 1:17:58.800 where are the fuck? Yes? Where the fuck are these 1:17:58.800 --> 1:18:01.000 people supposed to be getting money from to buy your 1:18:01.000 --> 1:18:04.559 shit if you won't give them more money? Like wait, wait, wait, 1:18:06.200 --> 1:18:09.040 so you know you can't do this by just making 1:18:09.080 --> 1:18:11.160 them like work more hours. You know, you can work 1:18:11.200 --> 1:18:14.240 people for like twelve fifteen, like twenty hours a day, 1:18:14.280 --> 1:18:16.920 but there's only twenty four hours a day. Like, there's 1:18:16.960 --> 1:18:20.439 an actual definite there's an actual definite limit to the 1:18:20.479 --> 1:18:23.599 amount of exploitation you can do via increasing labor hours. 1:18:23.600 --> 1:18:27.760 This is this has always been capitalism's problem, right, Like 1:18:28.520 --> 1:18:31.400 the sort of rapacity of capitalism has hit the secular 1:18:31.439 --> 1:18:34.200 limit of time itself. So the solution to this is 1:18:34.240 --> 1:18:36.719 to expand into new markets where consumers have more money, 1:18:36.880 --> 1:18:41.160 which is to say the US. So PDD initially targeted 1:18:41.200 --> 1:18:43.800 like poor rural Chinese workers, right, and this is kind 1:18:43.840 --> 1:18:45.880 of the same group that Temu was targeting in the now. 1:18:45.920 --> 1:18:48.840 In the US, their initial base is people who like 1:18:48.840 --> 1:18:51.840 buy from dollar stores, but they've been spreading rapidly. Temu 1:18:51.920 --> 1:18:54.200 has outpaced she In to become the second largest shopping 1:18:54.200 --> 1:18:59.120 app in the US. But the important thing really, yeah, yeah, 1:18:59.400 --> 1:19:01.559 there's not gonna be on Amazon. Yeah, they're like they're 1:19:01.600 --> 1:19:04.960 destroying Shiin, Like wow, yeah, I did not know they 1:19:04.960 --> 1:19:08.360 were that popular. Yeah, I mean, like estimates are like, well, 1:19:08.439 --> 1:19:10.360 I've seen simens to say they have one hundred million years. 1:19:10.360 --> 1:19:12.040 I don't buy that. I've seen that the estimates that 1:19:12.080 --> 1:19:14.040 I think I'm more reliable of like fifty four million 1:19:14.080 --> 1:19:17.080 years in the US. Although well, the thing is we 1:19:17.120 --> 1:19:19.960 don't we don't have post super Bowl numbers between fifty 1:19:19.960 --> 1:19:22.080 and well, I think I think it's like fifty. I 1:19:22.560 --> 1:19:24.800 wouldn't I wouldn't accept one hundred million ones. I think 1:19:24.800 --> 1:19:27.479 that's bullshit. We don't have good post super Bowl data yet. 1:19:27.880 --> 1:19:31.320 Kind of the issue. But yeah, they're they're they're clobbering people. 1:19:31.560 --> 1:19:35.559 But the important thing about specifically the American market for 1:19:36.360 --> 1:19:42.200 Temu is that like the kind the equivalent person who 1:19:42.200 --> 1:19:45.120 shops at a dollar store in the US still has 1:19:45.280 --> 1:19:49.320 unfathomably more money than that same person in China, because 1:19:49.360 --> 1:19:51.280 partially this is because the strength of the American dollar. 1:19:51.320 --> 1:19:55.720 Partially this is because American wages are just like unfathomably 1:19:55.840 --> 1:19:59.240 higher than Chinese wages, and that that's that's that's true 1:19:59.320 --> 1:20:02.040 even if you like, even when you account for like 1:20:02.120 --> 1:20:05.800 the relative strength dollar to the yawn. So you know, 1:20:06.920 --> 1:20:10.439 the other kind of important thing about Timmy strategy is 1:20:10.479 --> 1:20:13.640 that they've been using this kind of like loophole that 1:20:13.680 --> 1:20:15.759 will set up a US customs law to allow people 1:20:15.760 --> 1:20:18.720 to like bring presents home from countries. So like if 1:20:18.720 --> 1:20:20.400 you go to another country and you bring a present home, 1:20:20.439 --> 1:20:22.120 it's worth less than two hundred dollars, you go through 1:20:22.120 --> 1:20:23.800 like an expedited customs thing, and you don't have to 1:20:23.840 --> 1:20:24.640 pay tariffs on it. 1:20:24.960 --> 1:20:30.880 Yeah, So Timu and like a whole bunch of these 1:20:30.920 --> 1:20:33.880 companies just ship every single one of their packages in 1:20:34.400 --> 1:20:37.599 quantities where it's like seven hundred and ninety nine dollars, 1:20:37.760 --> 1:20:38.840 not eight hundred. 1:20:38.560 --> 1:20:43.760 Dollars ye yeah, yeah, yeah, And it's really funny. It's 1:20:43.760 --> 1:20:46.519 set off this like a massive intra capitalist war because 1:20:46.520 --> 1:20:48.360 like a bunch of like like American right wingers, like 1:20:48.400 --> 1:20:50.559 American manufacturers, like the Republican Party are like, we need 1:20:50.600 --> 1:20:52.719 to close this gap, but then all of the fucking 1:20:52.760 --> 1:20:55.040 shipping companies are like, no, this is a vital part 1:20:55.080 --> 1:20:57.479 of the American consumer economy. And there's this like giant 1:20:57.520 --> 1:21:03.000 war going on like both in Congress, like like in 1:21:03.040 --> 1:21:05.679 the press over whether they should where they should close 1:21:05.680 --> 1:21:11.240 as loophole now, you know. On the other hand, like 1:21:11.280 --> 1:21:13.960 there are real challenges to Temu being the first like 1:21:14.320 --> 1:21:17.200 company to break into the like Chinese companies like really 1:21:17.320 --> 1:21:20.320 truly break into the American market like she and has 1:21:20.400 --> 1:21:23.720 done well, but they haven't like they have they have 1:21:23.800 --> 1:21:25.720 They're not like a rival for it to Amazon, right, 1:21:25.840 --> 1:21:27.960 Like they're not big enough to like knock off one 1:21:27.960 --> 1:21:31.880 of the sort of like American tech giants. And Temu's 1:21:31.920 --> 1:21:35.800 problem is that. Okay, so if you compare Temu to 1:21:36.000 --> 1:21:39.240 to PDD, right, the Chinese version, PDD is supposed to 1:21:39.240 --> 1:21:41.320 be about spreading through word of mouth, right, It's it 1:21:41.400 --> 1:21:45.120 spreads by like someone in your you know, you as 1:21:45.120 --> 1:21:48.360 as if someone buying something from PDD taps your entire 1:21:48.439 --> 1:21:50.160 friend group and your family to get them to buy 1:21:50.160 --> 1:21:50.880 something for cheaper. 1:21:51.360 --> 1:21:51.519 Right. 1:21:51.920 --> 1:21:53.000 But the problem is that. 1:21:52.920 --> 1:21:56.800 Like fucking night, I forgot how this whole structure is. 1:21:56.840 --> 1:21:59.160 It's so bad. But the thing is, like Americans don't 1:21:59.200 --> 1:22:00.960 really do that, like they're been attempts to do like 1:22:01.040 --> 1:22:03.760 group on things they never worked. And Americans also don't 1:22:03.800 --> 1:22:08.799 group shop right because we're I don't know more weird 1:22:09.240 --> 1:22:09.800 b wok. 1:22:10.040 --> 1:22:12.040 There's just a fucking this is not a thing but 1:22:12.200 --> 1:22:15.880 full full of a lot more like individualistic impulse science. 1:22:16.600 --> 1:22:18.680 That is that is kind of a large part of 1:22:19.520 --> 1:22:23.000 what the American shopping classes is built off of. 1:22:23.520 --> 1:22:25.799 And and this isn't This is an issue for Temu 1:22:25.920 --> 1:22:30.080 because like they don't have the word of mouth thing 1:22:30.120 --> 1:22:32.240 that drove them in China, so they're relying on just 1:22:32.320 --> 1:22:35.920 top down like like massive ad buys and stuff, and 1:22:35.960 --> 1:22:37.800 there's kind of a limit. And it's something that that 1:22:38.040 --> 1:22:41.479 Temu understands, right, Like this is you know the whole 1:22:42.160 --> 1:22:44.120 there's a whole thing in the Chinese tech industry about 1:22:44.160 --> 1:22:47.479 the power of being able to leverage people's like private networks, right, 1:22:48.240 --> 1:22:50.639 Timu understands, but they don't have a way to break 1:22:50.680 --> 1:22:53.080 into the American market because it just doesn't work like 1:22:53.080 --> 1:22:56.439 the Chinese market. So instead they're like buying three Super 1:22:56.439 --> 1:22:59.439 Bowl ads right now. There's another issue, which is that 1:22:59.479 --> 1:23:02.040 the goods that they sell suck ass and they break instantly. 1:23:03.880 --> 1:23:07.519 You know, that's an issue, but I don't know it's 1:23:07.560 --> 1:23:10.400 the US. Lots of things suck and break instantly, but 1:23:10.439 --> 1:23:12.320 like it is only that's been driving sort of negative 1:23:12.320 --> 1:23:14.120 sentiment from people who've used it, is they're like they 1:23:14.120 --> 1:23:16.720 buy something and it's just like sucks, and they're you know, 1:23:16.760 --> 1:23:19.800 they're unhappy about it. The thing I think is maybe 1:23:19.840 --> 1:23:22.800 the biggest problem is that their delivery times are really 1:23:22.800 --> 1:23:26.479 long by American standards because they're they're shipping overseas. Temu 1:23:26.520 --> 1:23:29.960 had to build an actual logistics infrastructure where PDD like didn't, 1:23:30.360 --> 1:23:33.560 right because PDD is just using like Chinese versions of 1:23:33.600 --> 1:23:37.439 FedEx or whatever, right, And Temu's kind of doing that 1:23:37.960 --> 1:23:40.200 but in you know, in order to make it convenient 1:23:40.200 --> 1:23:42.680 for Chinese sellers. The way that they the way that 1:23:42.680 --> 1:23:44.439 they've sort of like set this up is they have 1:23:44.520 --> 1:23:48.880 a warehouse in Guandong, and every seller like ships it 1:23:48.920 --> 1:23:51.640 to this warehouse and then Temu deals with getting it 1:23:51.640 --> 1:23:55.439 shipped overseas. The problem is that this is really slow, right, 1:23:55.479 --> 1:23:59.640 It takes like two weeks for things to show up. 1:23:59.680 --> 1:24:02.120 And that's not out that's slow by like normal standards, 1:24:02.120 --> 1:24:05.200 but this is the US American standards. That is like 1:24:05.479 --> 1:24:09.439 a tortoise nightmarishly slow. Because we have gotten used to 1:24:09.920 --> 1:24:13.840 a level i'd say gratification, but like, yeah, like this 1:24:13.880 --> 1:24:16.160 is a level of power that was previously reserved for 1:24:16.280 --> 1:24:19.920 like Chinese emperors, and we fucking use it every day 1:24:20.160 --> 1:24:26.320 to order fucking nail clippers from Amazon, right, or in. 1:24:26.240 --> 1:24:28.000 My case, so a whole bunch of materials to build 1:24:28.000 --> 1:24:30.160 a black lodge, which I will then return as soon 1:24:30.160 --> 1:24:31.080 as my party is over. 1:24:31.920 --> 1:24:36.160 Incredible, you know, And this is this is a This 1:24:36.240 --> 1:24:38.240 is also something that's kind of new for Temu because 1:24:38.240 --> 1:24:41.840 PDD was built on being able to doing sales or 1:24:41.960 --> 1:24:44.280 fast enough they could sell fruit to people. Right, do 1:24:44.320 --> 1:24:47.200 you know how hard it is to sell fucking fresh 1:24:47.280 --> 1:24:50.080 fruit to people? That's like it legitimately really difficult. Well yeah, 1:24:50.280 --> 1:24:50.679 you can't. 1:24:50.720 --> 1:24:54.400 You can't ship. You can't have a two week ship 1:24:54.520 --> 1:24:55.800 for ca. 1:24:56.120 --> 1:24:59.760 But why it is I mean, it doesn't do a 1:24:59.760 --> 1:25:01.479 bunch of you have you have to have an actual 1:25:01.520 --> 1:25:03.519 logistics infrastructure set up for it, right. You can't just 1:25:03.520 --> 1:25:04.920 ship it in like an Amazon bomb. 1:25:05.000 --> 1:25:06.800 They have to be they have to be like specifically 1:25:06.840 --> 1:25:08.360 ripening along the Yeah. 1:25:08.240 --> 1:25:10.320 Yeah, yeah, and and and and tims also up to 1:25:10.400 --> 1:25:11.840 do that, right. And this is and this is an 1:25:11.840 --> 1:25:14.840 issue with all of their stuff because you know, they're 1:25:14.880 --> 1:25:16.960 they're trying to do direct to consumer sales. But the 1:25:17.000 --> 1:25:19.559 thing is in China it's really fast, and here it's slow. 1:25:21.080 --> 1:25:23.479 And the upside for Tamu is that their stuff is 1:25:23.520 --> 1:25:27.439 really cheap, right, It's unbelievably cheap. And you know, obviously 1:25:27.479 --> 1:25:29.560 they're they're losing money on the sales, and most of 1:25:29.600 --> 1:25:32.120 the money they're losing on the sales is from their 1:25:32.160 --> 1:25:34.960 ad spending, not from the actual sales. And this is 1:25:36.520 --> 1:25:38.559 this is where you get into again the really bleak 1:25:38.640 --> 1:25:41.840 part about this where Okay, so why are these why 1:25:41.840 --> 1:25:45.160 are these prices so low? And part of its tech 1:25:45.160 --> 1:25:49.599 money subsidy, but a lot of it is just labor, 1:25:49.840 --> 1:25:56.000 just pure, pure unrivaled labor exploitation. You know, when with 1:25:56.000 --> 1:25:59.600 with the Chinese workers movement, like as like a a 1:25:59.680 --> 1:26:02.800 sort of like collective mass movement just completely broken by 1:26:02.880 --> 1:26:06.200 Tienamen and then again dream like the crackdowns through the 1:26:06.240 --> 1:26:09.960 twenty tens that wiped out whatever sort of like classical 1:26:09.960 --> 1:26:12.800 workers movement style thing was may have popped up from 1:26:12.840 --> 1:26:17.760 the strikes in twenty eleven, Like there's there's no there's 1:26:17.800 --> 1:26:20.960 no mass countervailing force in Chinese politics to try to 1:26:21.040 --> 1:26:24.840 raise wages, like independent union organizing is illegal. You will 1:26:24.840 --> 1:26:27.680 get arrested. The actual unions that exist, like they all 1:26:27.720 --> 1:26:30.719 trying of union federation doesn't do shit. We don't really 1:26:30.840 --> 1:26:33.880 have that kind of like fake union thing here. It's 1:26:33.880 --> 1:26:35.519 like it's like a different but you know, like they're 1:26:35.600 --> 1:26:37.840 they're I don't know this is this is this is 1:26:37.840 --> 1:26:39.240 maybe not the time for me to try to explain 1:26:39.320 --> 1:26:42.040 China's union system. Like the unions are fucking bullshit. They 1:26:42.040 --> 1:26:44.599 don't do anything. Like if you go to them and 1:26:44.640 --> 1:26:46.720 be like my wages are too low, they'll try to 1:26:46.720 --> 1:26:49.519 get you to like negotiate with the company directly, right 1:26:49.520 --> 1:26:52.160 like like as an individual, and like it's they're nonsense. 1:26:52.160 --> 1:26:56.439 They're completely useless, and you know the results of this 1:26:56.560 --> 1:26:59.200 and the results of just like the incredible poverty of 1:26:59.520 --> 1:27:03.640 the Chinese working class and the fact that you know 1:27:03.680 --> 1:27:05.640 a lot of Chinese migrant workers, who are people who 1:27:05.640 --> 1:27:07.760 actually making these goods. So a lot of some of 1:27:07.760 --> 1:27:09.320 its world workers, some of its migrant workers. But a 1:27:09.360 --> 1:27:11.439 lot of these people's wages are lower than they otherwise 1:27:11.439 --> 1:27:15.439 would be because they're drawing revenue off of like they're off 1:27:15.479 --> 1:27:17.240 of of of like the plots of land that their 1:27:17.280 --> 1:27:20.479 family has, like back in the countryside, when they like 1:27:20.560 --> 1:27:23.360 when they they like migrate to another city to find 1:27:23.400 --> 1:27:25.960 a job. Yeah, so like all of these factors are 1:27:25.960 --> 1:27:29.640 just institutionally like smashing the price of like like like 1:27:29.760 --> 1:27:34.439 smashing like wages, and there's no there's no fucking there's 1:27:34.479 --> 1:27:36.920 not there's nothing really there to resist them and and 1:27:36.960 --> 1:27:38.479 act like you know, it's not like the Chinese working 1:27:38.479 --> 1:27:41.639 class like completely takes it lying down right, but it's 1:27:41.640 --> 1:27:45.439 like the resistant strategies are trying to work as little 1:27:45.439 --> 1:27:48.719 as possible. But that doesn't that's you know, and that's 1:27:48.720 --> 1:27:50.680 something that can be very effective in the sense of 1:27:50.720 --> 1:27:53.040 like you're working a lot less, but it's not something 1:27:53.080 --> 1:27:58.200 that drives up like wages. And so when when you're 1:27:58.240 --> 1:28:00.439 looking at Temu and you're seeing a pair of Janes 1:28:00.439 --> 1:28:04.559 for two dollars. Like what you are seeing is the 1:28:04.680 --> 1:28:07.240 raw exploitation of the Chinese working class. And this is 1:28:07.280 --> 1:28:08.840 also true of like the rest of the fucking shit 1:28:08.840 --> 1:28:11.439 you buy from China, right, Like almost all of the 1:28:11.520 --> 1:28:14.479 price of like a shirt that you're buying, I mean, 1:28:14.760 --> 1:28:19.000 Chinese textile manufacturing is kind of like not what it 1:28:19.120 --> 1:28:20.800 used to be, right but like you know, but like 1:28:20.920 --> 1:28:24.760 you're you're buying like fucking some bullshit from China. Like 1:28:24.760 --> 1:28:26.920 if you're buying from like another drop shipping company, right, 1:28:29.360 --> 1:28:31.800 like the thing you're actually paying for, you're paying the 1:28:31.920 --> 1:28:34.160 drop shipping company. You're not fucking paying the workers. They're 1:28:34.160 --> 1:28:36.240 not they're fucking not making shit all like all of 1:28:36.240 --> 1:28:38.760 the stuff that's like, I mean, it's not like one 1:28:38.800 --> 1:28:41.320 hundred percent, like a huge portion of of the fact 1:28:41.360 --> 1:28:44.680 that the price is higher on non Temu sites is 1:28:44.920 --> 1:28:49.040 just like it's just markups. Because this is this is 1:28:49.080 --> 1:28:53.080 just what the Chinese economy is. It's just sort of 1:28:53.120 --> 1:28:57.200 like it's you know, it's it's it's it's unbelievable exploitation. 1:28:57.320 --> 1:29:00.439 And this brings us to the thing we're gonna today 1:29:00.439 --> 1:29:02.519 on which is does Temo use slave labor. 1:29:03.840 --> 1:29:10.599 Oh oh okay, And the answer is probably, but it's 1:29:10.640 --> 1:29:11.559 hard to tell. 1:29:12.640 --> 1:29:15.200 So this has been a big thing because Tim is 1:29:15.200 --> 1:29:17.120 one of the companies that the State Department brought up 1:29:17.120 --> 1:29:20.439 when they were doing their investigations into like like Sheian 1:29:20.600 --> 1:29:23.639 was the other one into like are these companies using 1:29:23.720 --> 1:29:27.760 Shing John's slave labor and you know this is labor 1:29:27.800 --> 1:29:32.080 from people put in in the fucking camps. I think 1:29:32.120 --> 1:29:35.400 the answer is probably because I mean, so the thing 1:29:35.439 --> 1:29:37.720 is the State Department doesn't have any actual evidence, right, 1:29:37.800 --> 1:29:40.760 like they're all and they're they're doing this incredibly what 1:29:40.800 --> 1:29:42.600 we'll get into this in a second, Like, you know, 1:29:42.680 --> 1:29:44.800 obviously they're doing this because this is like this is 1:29:44.800 --> 1:29:47.839 an intra like capitalist feud thing, right. The State Department's 1:29:47.880 --> 1:29:50.400 talking about this because they're pissed at China. Yeah, this 1:29:50.479 --> 1:29:53.720 is like a nastic project for the United States. Yeah, 1:29:53.800 --> 1:29:58.000 but Comma, it's also probably true because these like and 1:29:58.000 --> 1:30:00.160 and this this is like the thing specifically with with 1:30:00.240 --> 1:30:02.439 PDD that we've been talking about is that they don't 1:30:03.600 --> 1:30:08.040 intimus Like they don't vet the sellers of stuff, right, 1:30:08.160 --> 1:30:10.680 Like we talked about last episode that like people were 1:30:10.680 --> 1:30:12.880 selling sleeping pills as date rate drugs, right, they don't 1:30:12.880 --> 1:30:17.080 fucking vet it at all. So yeah, probably, like quite possibly. Yeah, 1:30:17.080 --> 1:30:18.800 the stuff, the stuff that they're selling from Shing Jun, 1:30:19.040 --> 1:30:22.080 and they have a pretty large presence there, like was 1:30:22.240 --> 1:30:27.200 using sort of like prison slave labor from the camps there. However, Comma, 1:30:27.320 --> 1:30:30.200 we can't talk about prison slave labor without talking about 1:30:30.200 --> 1:30:33.240 the fact that fucking every goddamn US firm also uses 1:30:33.280 --> 1:30:36.519 prison slave labor. Everyone from fucking McDonald's to Starbucks, to 1:30:36.560 --> 1:30:40.040 Walgreens to JC Penny, like fucking every every company, every 1:30:40.280 --> 1:30:43.160 American company you can fucking think of, uses slave labor 1:30:43.280 --> 1:30:45.400 or their slave labor in their in their supply chain. 1:30:45.760 --> 1:30:49.519 And they're using slave labor because in the US, under 1:30:49.520 --> 1:30:52.320 the thirteenth Amendment, slavery is legal as long as the 1:30:52.400 --> 1:30:55.520 person as long as the person being enslaved is incarcerated. 1:30:56.280 --> 1:30:59.840 So you know, like it doesn't fucking matter, like this 1:30:59.880 --> 1:31:01.360 is this is this is the problem. It doesn't matter 1:31:01.360 --> 1:31:03.640 whether you buy from the US or China. Right, Like, 1:31:04.840 --> 1:31:08.720 you're you're getting fucking slave labor. So if you if 1:31:08.760 --> 1:31:13.400 you want to not do that, your your your only option. 1:31:13.520 --> 1:31:15.080 If if you do not want to, if you do 1:31:15.160 --> 1:31:18.240 not want everything you consume, like the food that you eat. 1:31:18.320 --> 1:31:20.720 If you don't want, like everything that you use in 1:31:20.720 --> 1:31:24.840 your daily life to be the product of unfathomable human exploitation, 1:31:25.680 --> 1:31:28.679 your only option is to destroy the monstrous economic system 1:31:28.680 --> 1:31:31.080 that reduces humans to commodities and tear up the fucking 1:31:31.160 --> 1:31:33.160 roots of every single one of these companies from San 1:31:33.200 --> 1:31:36.880 Francisco to Shanghai and burn it to the ground. That's 1:31:37.240 --> 1:31:40.720 that that those are your options, like, it's not your 1:31:40.720 --> 1:31:45.040 individual consumer choice, not gonna make it any better that 1:31:45.040 --> 1:31:45.880 That's what I got. 1:31:46.000 --> 1:31:51.439 I okay, all right, well god, like was it the 1:31:51.479 --> 1:31:52.559 Super Bowl great this year? 1:31:52.760 --> 1:31:55.360 Yeah? What a game? What a game? 1:31:55.680 --> 1:31:58.000 Almost almost double overtime. 1:31:58.040 --> 1:32:02.120 That was crazy. I I don't know. That was the 1:32:02.160 --> 1:32:04.639 worst Chiefs team of all time and they nobody could 1:32:04.680 --> 1:32:07.040 fucking beat them. We're so dubed. We're going to get 1:32:07.200 --> 1:32:09.639 Patrick Mahobe is gonna win like a fucking twelve peet. 1:32:10.120 --> 1:32:16.200 It's so over for every other sports team. Better things 1:32:16.240 --> 1:32:18.320 aren't possible unless you make them possible. 1:32:32.960 --> 1:32:37.520 Hello and welcome to it could happen here. Today's episode 1:32:38.320 --> 1:32:40.120 is one that I wanted to tackle for a while, 1:32:40.160 --> 1:32:42.840 and there are many different avenues to go about it. 1:32:42.960 --> 1:32:45.280 I think today's a little bit more focused, and I 1:32:45.320 --> 1:32:49.320 want to talk about food, Palestinian food, to be exact, 1:32:49.880 --> 1:32:53.960 and the way that it can be used as resistance 1:32:54.360 --> 1:32:58.679 as part of a culture that is being eradicated. Essentially, 1:32:59.400 --> 1:33:03.360 the appropriate of Palestinian surface culture by Israel has been 1:33:03.400 --> 1:33:08.519 happening ever since Israel's inception. Surface culture encompasses tangible and 1:33:08.640 --> 1:33:12.920 observable elements that contribute to the distinctive identity of a 1:33:12.960 --> 1:33:18.280 cultural group or region. Music, food, dress, and other aspects 1:33:18.360 --> 1:33:24.360 often define a nation's surface culture. Authentic culture evolves organically 1:33:24.520 --> 1:33:28.680 over generations, at least it's supposed to, but Israel has 1:33:28.720 --> 1:33:32.280 a sort of top down approach to culture that lacks 1:33:32.360 --> 1:33:38.840 genuine identifying characteristics. Throughout its history, Israel has either fabricated, annexed, 1:33:38.920 --> 1:33:43.439 or reconstructed both surface and deep cultural elements through what 1:33:43.560 --> 1:33:48.360 writer Jamal Khanj describes as quote falsehoods, myths, and fables. 1:33:49.360 --> 1:33:54.040 Unlike the conventional, slow and organic development of culture, Israeli 1:33:54.080 --> 1:33:58.679 surface culture came prepackaged by appropriating those very elements from 1:33:58.720 --> 1:34:04.519 the Age Old to Palestinian culture. A prominent aspect of 1:34:04.560 --> 1:34:08.920 any society's culture is its local cuisine. In nineteen forty eight, 1:34:09.120 --> 1:34:13.360 Israel ethnically cleansed Palestine of all non Jewish Palestinians, took 1:34:13.400 --> 1:34:21.720 over their land and brazenly claimed Palestinian culinary treasures like hummus, falafe, Babylonus, deabule, salad, coscos, 1:34:21.760 --> 1:34:25.599 frikic i, bimjadda, da peda, bread, and many more. They 1:34:25.680 --> 1:34:29.080 claimed them all as Israeli. All it took was to 1:34:29.240 --> 1:34:32.799 identify a Palestinian dish and then add the noun Israeli 1:34:32.960 --> 1:34:38.200 before its name. Going through the complete list of pleasiarized 1:34:38.200 --> 1:34:42.240 Palestinian cuisine would take me way, way too long, especially 1:34:42.320 --> 1:34:45.719 because I feel like Western familiarity with Palestinian cuisine remains 1:34:45.840 --> 1:34:49.360 somewhat limited. But I do want to explain one example 1:34:49.479 --> 1:34:53.560 that clearly shows just how foreign appropriated Palestinian food is 1:34:53.640 --> 1:34:54.200 to Israel. 1:34:54.920 --> 1:34:55.360 Homos. 1:34:56.200 --> 1:34:59.360 The Arabic word humos does not exist in these spoken 1:34:59.520 --> 1:35:04.000 Israeli language Hebrew. Pronouncing the word correctly is actually a 1:35:04.080 --> 1:35:07.040 bit challenging for most Hebrew speakers because there is no 1:35:07.280 --> 1:35:10.920 hard ha in the Hebrew alphabet, and in general, when 1:35:11.000 --> 1:35:14.760 Hebrew speakers attempt to enunciate homos or any Arabic word 1:35:14.840 --> 1:35:18.560 with the hard ha. They mispronounce it as j in 1:35:18.680 --> 1:35:22.920 this case homos not homos, and you might have heard 1:35:22.960 --> 1:35:26.479 this a lot recently. When it comes to Ramas. The 1:35:26.560 --> 1:35:29.919 full name of the dish homos becomes even more challenging 1:35:30.000 --> 1:35:33.560 when adding its second part to heini. The h in 1:35:33.640 --> 1:35:36.840 tahini is also a hard ha, So own Israeli would 1:35:36.840 --> 1:35:42.920 distort the Palestinian dish homos bitahini to horomos bitachini. This 1:35:43.080 --> 1:35:47.000 is an insult to the Arabic language, culinary etiquette, and 1:35:47.120 --> 1:35:50.320 to Arab shifts in the levant kitchen around the world. 1:35:51.120 --> 1:35:55.400 To paraphrase Palestinian American comedian Moamer, homos does not exist 1:35:55.479 --> 1:35:58.479 in your lexicon. You can't pronounce it, how can it 1:35:58.600 --> 1:36:02.800 be your national food. Even more amusing is when an 1:36:02.920 --> 1:36:07.799 Israeli writer posited that humost and eggplant babyanuche were quote 1:36:07.920 --> 1:36:12.240 Israeli foods, because that's how the Spanish Inquisition identified secret 1:36:12.360 --> 1:36:15.680 Jews from the food they ate. A similar hypothesis to 1:36:15.760 --> 1:36:19.400 this is the argument that foods like homos, fada, felfric, etc. 1:36:20.080 --> 1:36:22.639 Were brought by Jews who came from the Arab world. 1:36:23.600 --> 1:36:26.760 Of course, the diverse citizenry of the Arab world or 1:36:26.840 --> 1:36:30.360 the Muslim slash Arab Spain. It must have had hommost 1:36:30.439 --> 1:36:34.800 and eggplant in their cultural diet. Jewish citizens cooked and 1:36:35.080 --> 1:36:37.439 ate the food because they lived in the culture that 1:36:37.640 --> 1:36:40.720 produced the food, not because they created the food for 1:36:40.920 --> 1:36:44.479 that culture. Arab Jews also exist, but that would still 1:36:44.560 --> 1:36:46.200 make all of this food Arabic. 1:36:46.280 --> 1:36:46.519 Food. 1:36:47.160 --> 1:36:51.800 Writer Jamad Kanj writes, since Israelis contend that Jews have 1:36:51.920 --> 1:36:54.920 the right to claim foods brought with them as Israeli food, 1:36:55.360 --> 1:36:58.000 why don't they claim Russian dishes as Israeli food? 1:36:58.320 --> 1:36:58.519 Better? 1:36:58.640 --> 1:37:02.559 Yet, why don't Is from New York claim American steak 1:37:02.800 --> 1:37:06.040 as an Israeli food too? I know it's kind of 1:37:06.160 --> 1:37:08.840 said in jest, but he does raise a serious question. 1:37:09.280 --> 1:37:12.560 Why does Israel appropriate Palestinian and Arab food but not 1:37:12.720 --> 1:37:16.720 food brought in from Russia, Europe, Poland or America. It 1:37:16.840 --> 1:37:21.040 is simply because Palestinian food provides the Israeli top down 1:37:21.120 --> 1:37:25.799 culture with a distinctive surface cultural identity. It also features 1:37:25.880 --> 1:37:30.280 atypical exotic culinary dishes to Western kitchens, and this makes 1:37:30.320 --> 1:37:33.479 it a lot easier to hoodwink the West regarding the 1:37:33.600 --> 1:37:37.720 origin of their made up surface culture. The gall of 1:37:37.840 --> 1:37:42.160 claiming Palestinian culinary treasures is not only historically inaccurate, but 1:37:42.280 --> 1:37:46.360 also offensive and disrespectful. It is quite common for countries 1:37:46.439 --> 1:37:50.759 to adopt elements of other cultures, including their cuisine. For example, 1:37:50.880 --> 1:37:56.679 American cuisine celebrates a rich tapestry of international dishes like Asian, Italian, 1:37:56.720 --> 1:38:01.559 and Mexican food. However, the foods remained appreciated for their origin, 1:38:02.040 --> 1:38:05.880 with no real urgency to appropriate them as America's national food. 1:38:06.479 --> 1:38:09.320 Kanj suggests that unlike Israel, it could be that the 1:38:09.439 --> 1:38:12.680 United States does not have the same obsessive need to 1:38:12.840 --> 1:38:17.519 fake a culture to justify its existence. In contrast, the 1:38:17.640 --> 1:38:22.519 Zionist movement envisioned Israel's survival as being predicated on erasing 1:38:22.560 --> 1:38:26.080 the history of the rich heritage of Palestine's culture. 1:38:25.840 --> 1:38:26.599 And its people. 1:38:27.760 --> 1:38:30.320 And all of this is extremely relevant to what is 1:38:30.400 --> 1:38:34.480 happening right now as Israel continues its genocide of Palestinians. 1:38:35.320 --> 1:38:39.479 Because genocide and ethnic cleansing isn't just about lives lost. 1:38:40.080 --> 1:38:43.240 It's not just about physical death, but the death of 1:38:43.320 --> 1:38:46.839 the very idea of a people. Erasing even the memory 1:38:46.920 --> 1:38:50.519 of a people and their culture, cuisine, and heritage along 1:38:50.600 --> 1:38:54.519 with it, it's pretending Palestinians and their culture were never 1:38:54.680 --> 1:38:57.679 there to begin with. And this has been a narrative 1:38:57.760 --> 1:39:02.400 that Zionists have said since Israel's inception, the land without 1:39:02.479 --> 1:39:06.439 people for a people without land. But this appropriation of 1:39:06.560 --> 1:39:10.080 food in both the physical and cultural ethnic cleansing of Palestine. 1:39:10.320 --> 1:39:13.920 This didn't start on October seventh. The slow ethnic cleansing 1:39:14.000 --> 1:39:17.040 of Palestine has been going on for over seventy six years, 1:39:17.800 --> 1:39:21.439 and the stealing and claiming of Palestinian food as Israeli 1:39:21.800 --> 1:39:25.120 is intrinsically a part of that. It brings me to 1:39:25.280 --> 1:39:29.280 the topic of today's episode. Today, my guests are Reem 1:39:29.360 --> 1:39:33.639 Asial and Jabriel Units. Reim is a multiple award winning 1:39:33.720 --> 1:39:38.400 Palestinian Syrian speaker and chef based in Oakland, California, working 1:39:38.479 --> 1:39:42.679 at the intersection of food, community and social justice. Jabrie 1:39:42.920 --> 1:39:45.840 is a Palestinian filmmaker and artist who has worked with 1:39:45.960 --> 1:39:48.720 Reim on multiple projects, including a show that we touch 1:39:48.760 --> 1:39:52.479 on in this episode. With Food as a Tool, we 1:39:52.600 --> 1:39:56.479 talk about utilizing Arab hospitality to build a strong, resilient 1:39:56.560 --> 1:40:13.080 community as well as celebrate Palestinian joy. Here it is Hello, everybody, 1:40:13.200 --> 1:40:16.120 this is Sharen. Welcome to It could happen here today, 1:40:16.640 --> 1:40:19.960 we're talking to two people I love and respect very 1:40:20.040 --> 1:40:23.600 much about a topic that I think is really underreported on, 1:40:23.800 --> 1:40:27.120 and that's food erasure and how it's part of ethnic cleansing. 1:40:27.680 --> 1:40:29.479 And I think it's a really important topic to talk 1:40:29.520 --> 1:40:32.800 about right now, especially with the genocide happening in Palestine. 1:40:33.320 --> 1:40:36.320 So let's just jump right in without further ado. Welcome 1:40:36.720 --> 1:40:38.520 my guests, Read and Jabidil. 1:40:38.600 --> 1:40:42.360 Hello, Hello, Hello, Hey. 1:40:43.240 --> 1:40:44.479 Just so our audience can get to know you guys 1:40:44.479 --> 1:40:46.839 a little bit better, how about you all introduce yourselves 1:40:46.880 --> 1:40:47.479 and like what you do? 1:40:47.760 --> 1:40:51.360 And yeah, yeah, ream you want to go first? 1:40:52.320 --> 1:40:57.679 Sure. My name is Reem. I am a Bay Area 1:40:57.800 --> 1:41:03.800 based Palestinian Syria and chef. I own a restaurant called Reems, California, 1:41:04.080 --> 1:41:08.639 and our mission really is to build community across cultures 1:41:08.680 --> 1:41:11.920 and experiences through the warmth of Arab bred and hospitality. 1:41:13.040 --> 1:41:15.759 Beautiful. Wow, that was so succinct. 1:41:16.360 --> 1:41:18.600 My name is thank you for sesay, so. 1:41:20.240 --> 1:41:21.519 I've done it a few times, you know. 1:41:21.680 --> 1:41:21.920 Yeah. 1:41:22.200 --> 1:41:25.120 My name is jobrel Unis. I'm a filmmaker based in 1:41:25.479 --> 1:41:30.840 Pasadena and I am also a Palestinian artist in general. 1:41:32.320 --> 1:41:34.639 Yeah, no relation. Both of our last names are Unis, 1:41:34.680 --> 1:41:37.240 but that is how we met. A white person said, 1:41:37.360 --> 1:41:39.040 you guys have the same last name, you should meet, 1:41:39.360 --> 1:41:43.200 and we met. No, we're friends, But I really like 1:41:43.520 --> 1:41:46.160 the partnership that you guys have in the collaboration that 1:41:46.200 --> 1:41:49.200 you guys, from my perspective, have established. Can you guys 1:41:49.200 --> 1:41:51.679 talk about what you've been working on recently together? 1:41:52.920 --> 1:41:53.160 Yeah? 1:41:53.720 --> 1:41:57.200 Yeah, So we've been working on for the past since 1:41:57.240 --> 1:42:02.080 like twenty twenty one or late twenty We've been working 1:42:02.240 --> 1:42:06.400 on a documentary series that is named after Reem's cookbook, 1:42:06.880 --> 1:42:08.960 which is you should pick it up. It's one of 1:42:09.000 --> 1:42:12.760 my favorite cookbooks that I own. It's called Arabia and 1:42:13.040 --> 1:42:16.920 it is a documentary series exploring the food ways and 1:42:17.200 --> 1:42:21.000 diaspora of Arab people across South past Asia North Africa. 1:42:21.560 --> 1:42:24.000 And I think the general log line and dream can 1:42:24.080 --> 1:42:26.240 dive into a bit more of the general log line 1:42:26.320 --> 1:42:28.559 is you can tell this like through telling the story 1:42:28.600 --> 1:42:30.160 of the food, you can tell the story of our 1:42:30.200 --> 1:42:34.280 people in diaspora. And it underscores a lot of I 1:42:34.320 --> 1:42:38.959 think we'll talk about today, which is sort of food identity, 1:42:39.200 --> 1:42:43.960 identity through food and resilience and through food. But also 1:42:44.080 --> 1:42:46.840 I think one thing that's always been really important to 1:42:47.400 --> 1:42:49.840 both of us is how much we see the show 1:42:49.840 --> 1:42:51.920 as like a celebration of our culture. I feel like 1:42:51.960 --> 1:42:56.920 there are so many trauma stories from not only Palestinians 1:42:56.960 --> 1:42:59.439 but Arabs in general, and I think something that was 1:42:59.439 --> 1:43:01.800 really important us as I guess let's talk about all 1:43:01.840 --> 1:43:04.760 of it. We're an extremely I think you know, we're 1:43:04.800 --> 1:43:08.920 extremely politicized as a people, but also very passionate. But 1:43:09.040 --> 1:43:12.760 also let's celebrate all the things we love about ourselves 1:43:12.840 --> 1:43:15.280 and love about our culture and the tastes and smells 1:43:15.360 --> 1:43:18.639 and sounds and sights. So how would you I feel 1:43:18.680 --> 1:43:20.640 like that's sort of the setup, but how would you 1:43:20.720 --> 1:43:21.160 describe it? 1:43:23.120 --> 1:43:28.439 Yeah, I think that's exactly it. And our hope is 1:43:28.520 --> 1:43:32.880 that the being able to break down the barriers or 1:43:34.200 --> 1:43:37.920 have a lens into our world for the public is 1:43:38.400 --> 1:43:43.040 kind of a gateway to understand the context and the 1:43:43.160 --> 1:43:46.880 politics behind why things are the way they are and 1:43:47.080 --> 1:43:52.440 to really fight the dehumanization that Arabs have experienced, particularly 1:43:52.600 --> 1:43:55.880 in the West. And so, you know, while this is 1:43:55.920 --> 1:43:59.080 a show about food, it's also it's very much a 1:43:59.120 --> 1:44:04.760 show about people and how interconnected we are. So yeah, 1:44:04.960 --> 1:44:08.760 we're really excited to be able to break down some 1:44:08.880 --> 1:44:12.280 of those barriers of understanding in a way that could 1:44:12.360 --> 1:44:16.639 actually lead to people, you know, fighting anti Arab sentiment 1:44:16.760 --> 1:44:20.680 in this country, fighting Islamophobia, all of these things when 1:44:20.720 --> 1:44:23.599 they have that kind of lens or that view into 1:44:23.680 --> 1:44:24.080 our world. 1:44:24.840 --> 1:44:28.439 Yeah, and I mean it's been pretty interesting. I can 1:44:28.479 --> 1:44:31.160 I keep vamping a little bit. It's been pretty interesting. 1:44:31.320 --> 1:44:33.960 I mean, I think the sort of like thought that 1:44:34.720 --> 1:44:38.560 started the show really was why it's so easy? And 1:44:38.640 --> 1:44:40.719 I think we'll talk about this later too in depth, 1:44:41.160 --> 1:44:44.040 but like, why is it so easy to find so 1:44:44.200 --> 1:44:48.599 many different cultures food? You know, like you have I'm 1:44:48.600 --> 1:44:50.680 going to use Asian food as an example because I 1:44:50.760 --> 1:44:52.519 live in the San Gabriel Valley, so it's like all 1:44:52.560 --> 1:44:55.960 around me. But you have Korean food and Japanese food, 1:44:56.080 --> 1:44:59.040 and so many different types of Chinese food that are 1:44:59.120 --> 1:45:02.479 all specifically called what they are and where they're from. Right, 1:45:02.960 --> 1:45:06.800 They're all like identified correctly, and that can extend to 1:45:07.360 --> 1:45:11.040 the Latin X world and their food, it can extend 1:45:11.280 --> 1:45:15.240 to European food. It's all very you know, like people 1:45:15.320 --> 1:45:17.400 call it what it is, and then you sort of 1:45:17.520 --> 1:45:21.519 get to you get to you know, Southwest Asia and 1:45:21.560 --> 1:45:26.439 North Africa and suddenly the food stops being called you 1:45:26.520 --> 1:45:29.240 know what it is, and starts being called Mediterranean or 1:45:29.320 --> 1:45:34.479 starts being called Middle Eastern. And I think that the 1:45:34.600 --> 1:45:38.400 idea was, like I had gone to Anaheim, where there's 1:45:38.400 --> 1:45:41.160 a neighborhood called Little Arabia here, and there was a 1:45:41.200 --> 1:45:42.280 Palestinian restaurant. 1:45:42.320 --> 1:45:44.080 I was like so excited about it. It was called 1:45:44.120 --> 1:45:44.639 the Olive Tree. 1:45:44.680 --> 1:45:48.599 It's closed now, but I was like so so excited, 1:45:48.640 --> 1:45:51.120 and I got I always get so so excited when 1:45:51.160 --> 1:45:55.559 I find a Palestinian restaurant or a yeam any restaurant, and. 1:45:57.160 --> 1:45:58.320 You know, I mean many of them. 1:45:58.400 --> 1:46:01.960 But I think the reason I get so excited is 1:46:01.960 --> 1:46:06.080 because it's so hard to find those places, and I 1:46:06.120 --> 1:46:09.280 think there's a reason why. And so, you know, three 1:46:09.320 --> 1:46:11.120 and a half years later, the show has sort of 1:46:11.360 --> 1:46:14.720 grown from that initial thought and interest and become very 1:46:15.200 --> 1:46:19.720 very different, and it's effort to humanize Arabs, which is 1:46:19.760 --> 1:46:22.880 something I think is you know, it's unfortunate that we 1:46:22.920 --> 1:46:24.280 still have to do that, but I think we kind 1:46:24.280 --> 1:46:27.000 of do, especially right now. But yeah, we've been pitching 1:46:27.120 --> 1:46:29.680 for like, you know, we worked on it together for 1:46:29.800 --> 1:46:31.800 a while and then have just been pitching and going 1:46:31.840 --> 1:46:35.200 through pitches and talking at different companies and getting a 1:46:35.240 --> 1:46:37.879 lot of great feedback and getting some really weird feedback 1:46:37.960 --> 1:46:39.519 for the past like few years. 1:46:39.600 --> 1:46:41.200 And we can talk about that more if you want, 1:46:41.320 --> 1:46:45.040 but well, oh, I'd like to talk about some of 1:46:45.120 --> 1:46:48.280 the more interesting feedback, I guess, But I would also 1:46:48.479 --> 1:46:51.800 want to ask you, ream, how how did you get 1:46:51.880 --> 1:46:54.240 involved in food? Like where did that passion start? 1:46:56.320 --> 1:46:59.720 Yeah, I've I would say food has always been in 1:46:59.800 --> 1:47:04.800 the backdrop, for better or for worse of my life experiences, 1:47:05.040 --> 1:47:12.599 particularly when everything falls apart from me. I grew up 1:47:13.080 --> 1:47:16.280 kind of as a whatever. The term I've heard is 1:47:16.360 --> 1:47:21.919 like the third culture kid, right where the Arab identity 1:47:22.000 --> 1:47:24.280 was really strong in our household and that was particularly 1:47:24.400 --> 1:47:27.960 through food, but then also and a stranger in a 1:47:28.040 --> 1:47:32.760 strange land outside of the home, where it was predominantly 1:47:34.479 --> 1:47:39.800 your typical Americana suburban culture. And so I was kind 1:47:39.840 --> 1:47:45.600 of like, even though food was there, the intertwining with 1:47:45.760 --> 1:47:48.120 identity made me like run away from it a lot 1:47:48.160 --> 1:47:52.600 because it reminds you of your otherness and also just 1:47:52.880 --> 1:47:57.000 the nuances of seeing my mom being a working mom 1:47:57.040 --> 1:47:59.679 and struggling in the kitchen. So I was like I'm 1:48:00.439 --> 1:48:02.439 I'm going to be a feminist and I'm never going 1:48:02.520 --> 1:48:06.800 to touch that was like, and then every time, like 1:48:07.640 --> 1:48:09.960 you know, and then I did like what the immigrant 1:48:10.040 --> 1:48:13.560 child does, like overachiever, like go to college, try to 1:48:13.600 --> 1:48:15.840 be the president, and then realize that's not. 1:48:15.920 --> 1:48:16.479 What I want to do. 1:48:16.640 --> 1:48:19.760 When I spent many years in the nonprofit world, I 1:48:19.880 --> 1:48:22.559 was doing organizer work, and while that work was really 1:48:22.720 --> 1:48:26.320 rewarding to some extent, it was really draining and not 1:48:26.840 --> 1:48:30.400 fulfilling in a deeper spiritual level. And so every time 1:48:30.479 --> 1:48:33.400 I would burn out, the food, and particularly the food 1:48:33.439 --> 1:48:35.960 of my culture would come back in some shape or form. 1:48:37.200 --> 1:48:39.040 So I just had this kind of moment in twenty 1:48:39.200 --> 1:48:41.960 ten where I was in another bout of burnout and 1:48:42.040 --> 1:48:45.960 depression and really questioning everything. And it was a trip 1:48:46.040 --> 1:48:48.120 that I took to the Arab world with my father 1:48:48.280 --> 1:48:53.080 and seeing particularly bred in these straight corner bakeries be 1:48:53.760 --> 1:48:59.080 the anchor for this community that I had, you know, 1:48:59.640 --> 1:49:02.639 as a kid of diaspora, like really longing to feel 1:49:02.640 --> 1:49:04.840 connected to and it was through the food that I 1:49:05.320 --> 1:49:08.920 felt connected once again. So my mom did something right. 1:49:09.640 --> 1:49:13.360 Look of her the credit for that, But I was like, 1:49:13.479 --> 1:49:15.400 I need to explore this more. I need to understand 1:49:15.439 --> 1:49:18.040 what is this? And so then food became a source 1:49:18.080 --> 1:49:20.280 of healing for me to like come back to my 1:49:21.040 --> 1:49:23.760 identity and come back to my culture. But then also 1:49:24.840 --> 1:49:27.160 just the power of food as a community builder that 1:49:27.439 --> 1:49:30.680 like transcends all cultures, Like I really loved that as 1:49:30.760 --> 1:49:34.680 a community organizer who had been working with other communities 1:49:34.760 --> 1:49:38.439 who struggled just like my own, right, So that's kind 1:49:38.439 --> 1:49:40.880 of how I got into food by way of my 1:49:41.040 --> 1:49:45.000 love for wanting to belong and my love for connection 1:49:45.120 --> 1:49:50.639 of community, and then slowly became obsessed with food itself. 1:49:50.720 --> 1:49:53.080 I mean, who doesn't love food? But it is a 1:49:53.200 --> 1:49:57.760 place of both trauma and healing for me, So it 1:49:57.840 --> 1:49:59.439 became kind of a way to transcend that. 1:50:00.400 --> 1:50:01.840 No, I think it's a great thing to bring up 1:50:01.840 --> 1:50:06.920 how it's a trauma and very healing as well. I 1:50:07.720 --> 1:50:09.680 to kind of talk about like the feedback. I know 1:50:09.720 --> 1:50:11.599 you've had a restaurant in the Bay Area for a while. 1:50:13.040 --> 1:50:14.920 Was it similar when you tried to make the show 1:50:15.040 --> 1:50:18.599 come together, Like did you have similar barriers and feedback, 1:50:18.640 --> 1:50:20.080 Like were you like familiar with some of the things 1:50:20.080 --> 1:50:22.880 that people were saying or was it completely like a 1:50:23.000 --> 1:50:23.439 new game. 1:50:24.360 --> 1:50:24.599 Yeah. 1:50:25.200 --> 1:50:29.200 So the context that I started my restaurant, and I 1:50:29.320 --> 1:50:31.960 want to say it was probably much different than even 1:50:32.040 --> 1:50:35.000 what it is now today, although certainly there is backlash. 1:50:35.400 --> 1:50:37.160 But I would say I was one of the first 1:50:37.400 --> 1:50:40.360 few chefs who were saying, nope, I want my food 1:50:40.400 --> 1:50:45.960 to be called Arab. And I really wanted to counter 1:50:46.120 --> 1:50:49.640 these kind of watered down labels of Middle Eastern or 1:50:49.720 --> 1:50:53.120 Mediterranean or you know, levantine. To me, those were all 1:50:53.200 --> 1:50:56.040 colonial terms and it was like a bad word to 1:50:56.160 --> 1:50:58.920 say Arab, and I wanted to reclaim that identity. I 1:50:59.040 --> 1:51:00.360 was like, if I'm going to come out, I want 1:51:00.400 --> 1:51:03.519 to come out as my whole self and not this person, 1:51:03.960 --> 1:51:06.439 this scared person that was stifled all my life. And 1:51:06.600 --> 1:51:09.760 I understand why the immigrants before me came, you know, 1:51:09.880 --> 1:51:12.280 did it that way because they needed to make a living. 1:51:12.520 --> 1:51:15.400 And you know, there was a lot of anti Arab sentiment, 1:51:15.560 --> 1:51:18.400 especially in the wake of nine to eleven, that that 1:51:18.720 --> 1:51:23.040 kind of climate here. And so I had this like 1:51:23.320 --> 1:51:26.000 lovely idea that I'm like this generation where I can 1:51:26.080 --> 1:51:28.120 like break it down and make it cool. I'm like, 1:51:28.200 --> 1:51:31.840 I'm going to mainstream it, you know, And I got 1:51:31.880 --> 1:51:35.439 pushback actually from my own family, because they had those fears. 1:51:35.520 --> 1:51:38.320 They were like just you know, start like don't even 1:51:38.360 --> 1:51:41.720 start with like a zacta avduu. Shit, nobody's gonna now 1:51:41.760 --> 1:51:44.120 it's like the hot thing. But so that was a 1:51:44.160 --> 1:51:48.719 context in which I was opening my business and nobody 1:51:48.760 --> 1:51:50.920 had done it really before, so I could kind of 1:51:50.960 --> 1:51:52.880 create my own rules and people like what is this? 1:51:53.160 --> 1:51:55.439 And I still got like a lot of like, oh 1:51:56.640 --> 1:52:02.080 is this you know Mediterranean? You know people, it took 1:52:02.120 --> 1:52:06.120 a while to train people to say Arab and then 1:52:06.160 --> 1:52:09.280 put the layer of Palestinian identity, you know, my Palestinian 1:52:09.320 --> 1:52:11.640 identity at the time that I was opening my restaurant 1:52:12.240 --> 1:52:14.439 was really important. It was you know, I had started 1:52:14.479 --> 1:52:18.200 my pop ups on the in the wake of Israel's 1:52:18.880 --> 1:52:21.960 second to worst. Now we're seeing the worst of it 1:52:22.960 --> 1:52:26.360 incursion on Raz in twenty fourteen, in which they killed 1:52:27.360 --> 1:52:32.240 you know, over three thousand Palestinians in one winter, and 1:52:32.600 --> 1:52:36.320 we were devastated by that. We were devastated about the 1:52:36.400 --> 1:52:39.560 state of organizing with Palestinians. And I really wanted to 1:52:39.640 --> 1:52:42.680 as I opened my restaurant, not be scared to talk 1:52:42.720 --> 1:52:47.120 about my whole self, and so I h so everything 1:52:47.120 --> 1:52:50.360 about Reims. Even though we're not like pushing our politics 1:52:50.439 --> 1:52:53.679 in your face. Very act of being Palestinian was seen 1:52:53.720 --> 1:52:57.160 as political, just existing, and we had a mural of 1:52:57.280 --> 1:53:00.800 a Palestinian activist who was based in Chicago names Desmoda, 1:53:00.920 --> 1:53:05.680 who is deported by the government, as it made an 1:53:05.720 --> 1:53:09.480 example of to say, if you're Palestinian and you're outspoken 1:53:09.520 --> 1:53:11.479 about Palestine, this is what will happen to you. And 1:53:11.560 --> 1:53:14.559 I put her on the wall to remind my community 1:53:14.640 --> 1:53:17.040 and to remind myself that we don't need to be scared. 1:53:17.439 --> 1:53:21.000 And I got a lot of backlash for that, but 1:53:22.040 --> 1:53:26.920 I think even in that time, despite the backlash, the 1:53:27.120 --> 1:53:31.439 amount of community support, amount of opportunity for people to learn, 1:53:31.920 --> 1:53:35.639 was that much greater, and so I ended up getting 1:53:35.640 --> 1:53:41.240 a lot more positive attention for my vikery overall as 1:53:41.280 --> 1:53:41.880 a result of that. 1:53:43.560 --> 1:53:45.599 Do you have just a few? 1:53:46.479 --> 1:53:48.240 It makes me happy every time I wake up with 1:53:48.360 --> 1:53:51.080 a nomination, I'm like, I wonder what the Zionists be thinking. 1:53:53.720 --> 1:53:57.120 It gives me a little bit of like hope that 1:53:57.360 --> 1:53:59.759 like our success is kind of like what is threatening, 1:53:59.880 --> 1:54:02.040 you know, because we are truth We are in the 1:54:02.120 --> 1:54:04.200 business of truth telling, and we do it in a 1:54:04.240 --> 1:54:07.959 way that's very human, you know, based in our humanity 1:54:08.040 --> 1:54:12.240 and our dignity, and that our restaurant was really I 1:54:12.320 --> 1:54:15.040 think powerful in that way that a simple art piece 1:54:15.760 --> 1:54:18.920 or the simple act of making food and calling it 1:54:19.000 --> 1:54:22.520 Palestinian was that threatening to the powers. 1:54:22.120 --> 1:54:25.679 That be, you know, Like that's such an interesting backdrop 1:54:25.920 --> 1:54:29.800 also to talk about the feedback we got from the show, 1:54:29.920 --> 1:54:35.600 because like, I think Reem's experience was so was so 1:54:36.200 --> 1:54:38.879 visceral in that way, and I mean when she described 1:54:38.920 --> 1:54:41.240 as well, and I think you can look it up 1:54:41.280 --> 1:54:43.160 and there have been articles on BIS and stuff about 1:54:43.200 --> 1:54:45.920 it where people can read about her experience and everything 1:54:45.960 --> 1:54:48.760 that happened. And you know, I think maybe we undersold 1:54:49.280 --> 1:54:51.680 you your intro a little bit raam, like you're a badass, 1:54:51.760 --> 1:54:54.440 and you know, the James Beard noms and a lot 1:54:54.440 --> 1:54:55.960 of great and awesome press. 1:54:56.960 --> 1:54:58.520 But I think what's. 1:54:58.440 --> 1:55:03.800 Interesting about the show is with realms, with realms at 1:55:03.920 --> 1:55:09.520 the restaurant. You know, it's very specifically Palestinian and Arab food, 1:55:10.080 --> 1:55:13.080 and the show, while yeah, it's being made by us 1:55:13.160 --> 1:55:19.480 who are Palestinian people, it's not only about Palestine. And 1:55:20.360 --> 1:55:23.880 that's been something we've sort of had to overcome. Like 1:55:24.800 --> 1:55:27.880 the show is about Arabs, and it's about our foods 1:55:27.960 --> 1:55:31.400 and food ways, and as much as the food, you know, 1:55:31.880 --> 1:55:36.440 the show. As much as the show focuses on Palestine, 1:55:36.440 --> 1:55:39.600 it also focuses on Egypt and Yemen and where you know, 1:55:39.920 --> 1:55:42.440 I mean the Yemeni coffee tradition is like where Arab 1:55:42.760 --> 1:55:45.000 coffee kind of came from and started from. And it 1:55:45.080 --> 1:55:49.280 also focused on Lebanon and Morocco and Algeria. It's been 1:55:49.440 --> 1:55:52.680 an interesting yeah, go ahead, ream, Yeah. 1:55:52.600 --> 1:55:55.080 It was just to that point, like it's it's not 1:55:55.200 --> 1:55:58.080 about I mean, first of all, these these these states 1:55:58.120 --> 1:56:03.320 are border right or they're colonized states in some shape 1:56:03.400 --> 1:56:06.919 or form, and the idea is to fight the tropes 1:56:07.880 --> 1:56:10.440 of the Arab as one thing, right, Like it's showing 1:56:10.520 --> 1:56:12.720 the breadth and depth of our culture that like we're 1:56:12.760 --> 1:56:16.960 not Hamat, it's not a monolith, we're not homogeneous. And 1:56:17.240 --> 1:56:21.640 even the ethos of Realms kind of is very similar 1:56:21.760 --> 1:56:25.440 to that idea that yes, we are Palestinian, but we're 1:56:25.440 --> 1:56:28.640 also Syrian, we're also Oakland, we're also California. Like those 1:56:28.720 --> 1:56:32.000 things don't need to compete with one another. I hate 1:56:32.520 --> 1:56:36.240 you know, like you know, my identity kind of coming 1:56:36.320 --> 1:56:39.000 on the scene. Yes I'm Arab and yes I'm Palestinian, 1:56:39.040 --> 1:56:42.080 but those are political identities. The reason we call our 1:56:42.120 --> 1:56:45.440 food Palestinian is to draw attention to the ethnic cleansing 1:56:45.520 --> 1:56:48.000 and a rasure of our people. That's why we call 1:56:48.040 --> 1:56:50.920 it Palestinian. But it's not. There's there are certain foods 1:56:50.920 --> 1:56:54.120 that are not inherent. I mean, they're enjoyed all over 1:56:54.200 --> 1:56:56.560 the Arab world and they look different, but you can't 1:56:56.920 --> 1:56:59.720 like the claiming of ownership of food is. Yeah, So 1:57:00.640 --> 1:57:04.320 I think this show is really trying to fight against 1:57:05.240 --> 1:57:08.360 that trope of the it's called ada Bia, which is 1:57:08.440 --> 1:57:10.400 kind of like a tongue in cheek, like what do 1:57:10.440 --> 1:57:12.680 you think of with the Arab woman? And it's like, 1:57:13.240 --> 1:57:16.040 let me take all of those stereotypes and like turn 1:57:16.160 --> 1:57:18.680 them on their head. It's the same thing with like 1:57:18.800 --> 1:57:20.560 all of our food ways in our culture. There is 1:57:20.680 --> 1:57:25.000 no singular way of what an Arab is. We all 1:57:25.080 --> 1:57:27.840 have kind of our unique stories and histories, so when 1:57:27.880 --> 1:57:31.000 we choose to call things what they are, there's a 1:57:31.120 --> 1:57:33.680 context in a history for that, and that's what we're 1:57:33.720 --> 1:57:34.520 trying to share. 1:57:35.280 --> 1:57:35.960 Yeah, exactly. 1:57:37.040 --> 1:57:42.120 I think, I mean, I really relate to the idea 1:57:42.160 --> 1:57:46.160 of really wanting to be represented with food, Like when 1:57:46.200 --> 1:57:50.040 I find a Syrian restaurant, I freak out. Like there's 1:57:50.120 --> 1:57:55.240 one alcohol in southern California where it's like my family 1:57:55.280 --> 1:57:57.080 and I go there every weekend when I'm down and 1:57:57.480 --> 1:57:59.760 when I'm visiting my parents. It's just like a place 1:57:59.760 --> 1:58:03.520 where we feel like the closest we can get to 1:58:03.680 --> 1:58:06.320 home again. And I think it's a really important like 1:58:06.560 --> 1:58:10.240 reminder that I don't know food is food can be 1:58:10.280 --> 1:58:12.560 really powerful. And before I keep rambling, I'm gonna take 1:58:12.560 --> 1:58:26.240 our break and we'll be right back, and we are 1:58:26.400 --> 1:58:30.200 back reim you mentioned something earlier that I think is 1:58:30.640 --> 1:58:34.480 worth touching back on the idea of like existing being 1:58:34.720 --> 1:58:38.160 already like a political act. I think that is like 1:58:38.920 --> 1:58:40.760 it's a burden for a lot of people of color 1:58:40.760 --> 1:58:43.880 and a lot of marginalized communities. And I think hand 1:58:43.920 --> 1:58:45.880 in hand with that is the fact that like our 1:58:46.000 --> 1:58:48.960 food is also like a political act, like making sure 1:58:49.000 --> 1:58:52.080 it's couscus not is really cuscus, or whatever it is 1:58:52.240 --> 1:58:56.640 that we're trying to fight against. How do you see food? 1:58:57.800 --> 1:59:01.400 And especially now, I think people underestimate how many levels 1:59:01.400 --> 1:59:04.840 there are of ethnic cleansing because erasing food and appropriating 1:59:04.840 --> 1:59:08.120 food is a huge part of that, right, So can 1:59:08.160 --> 1:59:10.240 I get your take on that, both of your takes. 1:59:11.400 --> 1:59:14.280 You mean, like beyond appropriating, Yeah, I mean I think 1:59:14.960 --> 1:59:21.960 food is a tool of it is weaponized historically against people, 1:59:23.240 --> 1:59:26.920 I mean most doubtably obviously with seventy five years of 1:59:28.560 --> 1:59:36.000 occupation of Palestine. One of the many ways besides the dispossession, killing, expulsion, 1:59:37.000 --> 1:59:39.800 is to sever us from our food waste. And when 1:59:39.840 --> 1:59:43.120 you sever someone from their land that creates the food ways, 1:59:43.280 --> 1:59:48.400 you sever them from their culture, from their existence. Then 1:59:48.480 --> 1:59:51.840 there's just the most the more immediate way as we're 1:59:52.080 --> 1:59:56.000 seeing this genocide unfolds, where you can starve a population 1:59:56.280 --> 2:00:00.120 in that and so food then becomes kind of of 2:00:00.160 --> 2:00:05.200 this powerful tool to break a people, and why we 2:00:05.320 --> 2:00:09.960 see people like food become a form of resistance for people. 2:00:10.600 --> 2:00:12.960 But even here in our communities, I mean, this is 2:00:13.040 --> 2:00:19.760 not unfortunately unique to the Palestinians. You've seen the pillaging 2:00:19.960 --> 2:00:24.680 of indigenous folks here in this country the same things, 2:00:24.760 --> 2:00:27.400 kind of cutting them off from their food ways, their 2:00:27.880 --> 2:00:30.920 means of subsistence, of supporting one another, of you know, 2:00:31.160 --> 2:00:34.160 being connected to their culture. And now you're seeing in 2:00:34.320 --> 2:00:38.800 communities through economic policy, like food deserts and people not 2:00:38.920 --> 2:00:42.240 being able to access their food or have sovereignty over 2:00:42.320 --> 2:00:47.280 their food production. So it is absolutely a tool and 2:00:48.920 --> 2:00:51.040 something that we talk about at REAMS a lot that, 2:00:51.280 --> 2:00:53.960 like the fight for Palestine is the fight for food 2:00:54.040 --> 2:00:56.040 sovereignty everywhere and vice versa. 2:00:56.360 --> 2:01:00.200 Right, Well, I'm glad you brought up the idea of 2:01:02.360 --> 2:01:05.600 or just the fact that like Israel and the Zionist 2:01:05.640 --> 2:01:08.400 regime has like taken Palestinians from their land. And I've 2:01:08.440 --> 2:01:11.320 talked about this before on this podcast, but like the 2:01:11.400 --> 2:01:15.160 olive tree is a very significant part of Palestinian culture, 2:01:15.280 --> 2:01:18.920 and like olive harvesting is a huge part of Palestinian life. 2:01:18.960 --> 2:01:21.920 And so when you burn down thousands of olive trees, 2:01:22.000 --> 2:01:23.800 or when you kick people out of like the art 2:01:23.920 --> 2:01:28.680 agriculturally rich parts of the land, you're denying them so 2:01:28.840 --> 2:01:32.040 much more than just olives. It's like very deep. And 2:01:32.160 --> 2:01:34.920 I think when people that are not as informed about 2:01:35.040 --> 2:01:38.760 Palestine question like why is there a watermelon? Like what's 2:01:38.880 --> 2:01:41.680 this and what's the olive about? And I think that 2:01:41.840 --> 2:01:45.000 goes to show how powerful food can be. And just 2:01:45.160 --> 2:01:48.000 for those who don't know, the watermelon became an active 2:01:48.720 --> 2:01:51.400 or a symbol of resistance because the Palestinian flag was 2:01:51.440 --> 2:01:53.520 not allowed to be raised for a while, and it 2:01:53.560 --> 2:01:55.840 has the same colors as Palestini flag, and so that's 2:01:55.880 --> 2:01:59.440 just like a really beautiful way that food has become 2:01:59.560 --> 2:02:03.640 this like powerful symbol. And so I just I just 2:02:03.800 --> 2:02:07.200 trying to, I don't know, emphasize that a little bit, 2:02:07.240 --> 2:02:08.880 I guess, Jabil, what's your take. 2:02:09.960 --> 2:02:14.000 Yeah, I mean I think that I think just I'll 2:02:14.000 --> 2:02:16.280 speak like a little bit more domestically. I feel like 2:02:16.360 --> 2:02:19.320 Reem is so eloquent and talking about historic parts of it, 2:02:19.880 --> 2:02:22.040 but I mean even here, like domestically in Los Angeles 2:02:22.160 --> 2:02:24.080 or California, I think one of the things and it 2:02:24.240 --> 2:02:25.840 kind of goes back to what we were talking about earlier. 2:02:26.400 --> 2:02:28.120 One of the things that's one of the things that's 2:02:28.160 --> 2:02:34.520 difficult is there are so few identifying parts of or 2:02:34.640 --> 2:02:37.680 just restaurants in general, like correctly identifying restaurants Syria in 2:02:37.760 --> 2:02:41.680 or Lebanese or Palestinian or what have you, and they 2:02:42.000 --> 2:02:46.560 hide under these names which when I'm not going to 2:02:46.680 --> 2:02:49.720 name like specific restaurants here, but like which when other 2:02:49.880 --> 2:02:54.640 restaurants open and maybe they're owned by an Italian person 2:02:54.880 --> 2:02:58.760 or just other people that aren't Arab, and suddenly they're 2:02:59.200 --> 2:03:03.640 taking the food and misappropriating it and calling it. Yeah, 2:03:03.680 --> 2:03:06.840 I mean Israeli kuscus or like an Israeli salad or 2:03:07.680 --> 2:03:11.280 Israeli falaffl or Hey, here's all this food and it's 2:03:11.320 --> 2:03:16.040 shuarma and it's kebabs and it's manyish and we're an 2:03:16.120 --> 2:03:19.200 Israeli restaurant. Like these are things that are really difficult 2:03:19.200 --> 2:03:22.120 because I think, you know, those things tend to be 2:03:22.480 --> 2:03:26.880 unfortunately just like more approachable, saying Mediterranean tends to be 2:03:26.960 --> 2:03:30.760 more approachable, and what you get ultimately is a population 2:03:30.960 --> 2:03:34.080 of I would say a larger population of non Arab 2:03:34.200 --> 2:03:37.360 people that don't really understand what they're eating and they're 2:03:37.400 --> 2:03:41.320 not educated on where it comes from. And just the 2:03:41.440 --> 2:03:45.480 amount of people you know, anecdotally that I personally have 2:03:45.680 --> 2:03:50.320 met who like don't know that this food is Arab 2:03:50.440 --> 2:03:54.120 food or don't know like what where the food comes from, 2:03:54.160 --> 2:03:56.160 which is so interesting to me because it's not an 2:03:56.240 --> 2:03:59.480 experience that I think many other cultures or ethnicities have. 2:04:00.600 --> 2:04:03.320 And so yeah, I mean I kind of always joke 2:04:03.440 --> 2:04:07.040 that I feel like a really close example is if 2:04:07.440 --> 2:04:10.480 you know, somebody started like an American person started making 2:04:10.560 --> 2:04:15.160 sushi and they're like, this is American food and it's 2:04:15.360 --> 2:04:19.000 just not at the same time. And so I think 2:04:19.080 --> 2:04:23.200 that the need to assimilate for generations before reems and 2:04:23.280 --> 2:04:28.680 I I have an empathy for the want of safety 2:04:29.480 --> 2:04:31.120 that they were doing and the want to make a 2:04:31.200 --> 2:04:33.080 living and the reasons they did it. I think we 2:04:33.400 --> 2:04:36.800 kind of alluded to that earlier. But where it's left 2:04:36.880 --> 2:04:42.120 us now is a population of Arabs and diaspora that 2:04:43.720 --> 2:04:46.360 I think are harmed for it. You know, like we 2:04:46.480 --> 2:04:48.560 don't have we don't show up on the census, and 2:04:49.160 --> 2:04:51.840 it's all sort of one part. It's all they're all 2:04:51.880 --> 2:04:54.640 different parts of the one problem. And I think that 2:04:55.040 --> 2:04:56.880 when you take the food and you don't give it 2:04:56.920 --> 2:04:59.480 its correct name, and you don't or you give it 2:04:59.720 --> 2:05:04.520 the incorrect name, it hurts all of us in ways 2:05:04.640 --> 2:05:08.600 that like we can't even imagine, whether it's at work 2:05:08.840 --> 2:05:12.520 or in diversity and belonging initiatives not including Swannamina people, 2:05:13.520 --> 2:05:16.200 or whether it's just in food ways and not being 2:05:16.240 --> 2:05:18.680 included or not being included in the census, which leads 2:05:18.760 --> 2:05:23.560 to us not having as much community support around our 2:05:23.640 --> 2:05:27.440 people are not knowing medical statistics like I think they're 2:05:27.560 --> 2:05:30.840 all they're symptoms of a bigger issue, and I think 2:05:32.280 --> 2:05:35.120 one of the ways you combat that issue is through 2:05:35.280 --> 2:05:37.680 knowledge and shared learning and shared experience. 2:05:37.760 --> 2:05:39.320 And I think food and. 2:05:39.400 --> 2:05:42.960 Food ways are one of the main ways that people 2:05:43.120 --> 2:05:46.520 experience and learn about other cultures. And I think if 2:05:46.640 --> 2:05:49.200 people look at that in their own lives, you can 2:05:49.280 --> 2:05:53.080 apply it to any culture of food that you really 2:05:53.200 --> 2:05:57.240 love and maybe it's not your own, and you've learned 2:05:57.320 --> 2:05:59.880 something about those people through that, you know. I think 2:06:01.320 --> 2:06:05.440 the main dishes of any culture, it says a lot 2:06:05.480 --> 2:06:08.440 about where that culture has been, where they come from, 2:06:08.680 --> 2:06:12.000 what their history is. And I think people being able 2:06:12.040 --> 2:06:15.560 to experience those things and go to a Mexican restaurant 2:06:16.200 --> 2:06:19.520 and learn about, you know, a certain dish and where 2:06:19.520 --> 2:06:21.600 it comes from or why it's there or why it's 2:06:21.680 --> 2:06:24.520 named something is an experience that allows them to learn 2:06:24.520 --> 2:06:27.680 about a culture. And we just don't necessarily have that here. 2:06:28.480 --> 2:06:31.080 And then when you add on, you know, misnomers or 2:06:31.400 --> 2:06:34.840 incorrect labels, it becomes even more damaging and also just 2:06:34.960 --> 2:06:38.360 hurtful and very annoying, Like it's so annoying, and I like, 2:06:38.400 --> 2:06:41.480 I don't want to go. I'm sorry, Like there are 2:06:41.600 --> 2:06:43.880 restaurants in LA that I like just don't want to 2:06:43.920 --> 2:06:46.640 go to. And maybe the chefs are really nice and 2:06:46.760 --> 2:06:50.200 they might be allies in some ways, or maybe they're not, 2:06:51.000 --> 2:06:54.040 but like I would rather give please, Like I would 2:06:54.120 --> 2:06:57.000 rather give my money to like an Arab person making 2:06:57.400 --> 2:07:00.840 our own food rather than going to experience it. 2:07:01.120 --> 2:07:02.680 In a different way, you know what I mean? 2:07:02.800 --> 2:07:03.200 Like I don't. 2:07:04.240 --> 2:07:06.200 I don't know, so I think that's kind of like 2:07:06.480 --> 2:07:09.000 how I generally feel. And the less professional answer is 2:07:09.040 --> 2:07:12.160 I just find it like really annoying. And I'm like, 2:07:12.240 --> 2:07:15.440 come on, y'all, there's so many listen, like, we're not 2:07:15.680 --> 2:07:18.040 LA's not New York. We have like not as many 2:07:18.160 --> 2:07:22.040 Arab places to go. They're sort of few. You have 2:07:22.080 --> 2:07:24.160 to seek them out a little bit more here. But 2:07:24.280 --> 2:07:27.880 I'm like, come on, y'all, we're out here. Yeah, go 2:07:28.000 --> 2:07:30.640 find go find us, like, go find give your money 2:07:30.720 --> 2:07:35.360 to like this Syrian immigrant who moved here and started 2:07:35.440 --> 2:07:36.880 this place that everybody loves. 2:07:37.960 --> 2:07:40.160 And you know, I, yeah, I don't know. 2:07:40.320 --> 2:07:42.360 There are a lot of big restaurants, are very popular 2:07:42.440 --> 2:07:44.760 restaurants here, and I'm just like, not a dog. I 2:07:44.840 --> 2:07:46.600 don't want to pay I don't want to pay thirty 2:07:46.640 --> 2:07:48.080 five dollars for to believe. 2:07:48.640 --> 2:07:52.240 Yeah, I think, I mean, I think it's twofold kind 2:07:52.280 --> 2:07:55.600 of like who has access to resources versus who doesn't? Right, 2:07:56.200 --> 2:08:02.040 who gets highlighted? You know, there's that piece and what's 2:08:02.120 --> 2:08:05.160 palatable to the American public and what's not right? Like 2:08:05.880 --> 2:08:10.600 I always say, like, for for instance, I think like realms, 2:08:10.680 --> 2:08:14.839 we kind of we do things a little bit different. Obviously, 2:08:14.960 --> 2:08:18.240 we honor tradition, we honor the soul of air cuisine, 2:08:18.280 --> 2:08:22.240 but we play around with it. And one could argue, 2:08:22.960 --> 2:08:27.000 are we is this like americanizing the food? And we're like, no, 2:08:27.280 --> 2:08:32.160 it's just through the lens of a yes for Palestinian 2:08:32.240 --> 2:08:37.680 Syrian by way of California. But we I think when 2:08:37.720 --> 2:08:40.280 we first came on the scene, I mean, there is 2:08:40.400 --> 2:08:43.080 something to be said about the privilege that I have 2:08:43.440 --> 2:08:49.520 as English speaking, as this generation that can like what 2:08:49.640 --> 2:08:53.240 do you call it, translate the foods to a mainstream 2:08:53.320 --> 2:08:55.480 public in a way that's like really compelling, like a 2:08:55.600 --> 2:08:59.840 mediator almost, But that comes from a little bit of 2:09:00.560 --> 2:09:03.520 like that people don't they want the food, you know, 2:09:03.640 --> 2:09:07.960 and so like I am this palatable character in some ways, 2:09:08.880 --> 2:09:13.120 and that's a contradiction that I'm constantly like, I don't 2:09:13.160 --> 2:09:17.000 want to be, but it's like, what do you call 2:09:17.080 --> 2:09:19.440 that the trojan horse? Right? But then once you come 2:09:19.480 --> 2:09:22.600 into Reams, it's still it's very warm. I mean, there's nothing. 2:09:22.640 --> 2:09:27.360 We're not tricking anyone, right, But we're also truly ourselves 2:09:27.440 --> 2:09:30.160 and that's not for everybody. So we don't want to 2:09:30.160 --> 2:09:32.240 be a gentrifying space where like, if you're going to 2:09:32.280 --> 2:09:34.320 come in here, you have to deal with the community 2:09:34.440 --> 2:09:37.640 that we're in just as much as the food that 2:09:37.840 --> 2:09:41.600 you are obsessed with now, right because either wrote about 2:09:41.600 --> 2:09:46.480 it or whatever. So we really and that's not for everybody, right, like, 2:09:47.360 --> 2:09:52.360 and that just speaks to a like a bigger problem 2:09:52.440 --> 2:09:55.240 of like if you like the people as much as 2:09:55.280 --> 2:09:57.120 you like their food, Like our food is not just 2:09:57.240 --> 2:09:59.640 for sale. You can't just take some of it and 2:09:59.760 --> 2:10:01.280 leave the rest of it. And I think that's why 2:10:01.320 --> 2:10:05.600 the American public is so comfortable with our foods being 2:10:05.680 --> 2:10:08.000 represented by people other than us. We're not we're not 2:10:08.120 --> 2:10:11.280 We're never the tellers of our own stories because again, 2:10:11.400 --> 2:10:18.600 this dehumanization of Palestinians, and it's particularly interesting now and 2:10:18.680 --> 2:10:21.000 I would say, like Reims has always been transparent. But 2:10:21.040 --> 2:10:24.920 I've heard from counterparts in who are now you know, 2:10:25.080 --> 2:10:27.760 like there are other restaurants now coming out. I think 2:10:27.800 --> 2:10:30.280 there was even just an article that was released today 2:10:31.120 --> 2:10:36.480 on Eater about the Palestinian category on Google, and you know, 2:10:37.440 --> 2:10:41.960 people are now calling their restaurants, are maybe leading up 2:10:42.600 --> 2:10:46.120 to this last four months calling their restaurants Palestinian. And 2:10:46.280 --> 2:10:49.600 that was palatable enough. It's like cool, like it's this 2:10:49.720 --> 2:10:52.800 culture that's really beautiful. But then when it came down 2:10:52.880 --> 2:10:56.040 to it, when we're experiencing a genocide, it made people 2:10:56.120 --> 2:10:59.600 feel uncomfortable. So it's like they want to like it 2:10:59.680 --> 2:11:02.440 doesn't stop at food, you know, And I think our food, 2:11:02.680 --> 2:11:05.920 at least for me, and I would say for a 2:11:06.000 --> 2:11:08.400 lot of people who get into like expressing their food 2:11:08.440 --> 2:11:11.280 ways here in the US, Like you can't just take 2:11:11.320 --> 2:11:16.240 some of us our food and then dismiss the rest 2:11:16.280 --> 2:11:18.360 of us or dehumanize the rest of us. And so 2:11:18.520 --> 2:11:22.040 I think that is the contradiction that we're always dealing with, 2:11:22.280 --> 2:11:25.480 is like how can we offer this beautiful culture but 2:11:25.600 --> 2:11:29.360 not tokenize it so it becomes depoliticized because it is political. 2:11:30.800 --> 2:11:34.280 And if you're engaging with Palestinian cuisine and consuming it. 2:11:35.040 --> 2:11:41.560 You can't just you can't do it without either you know, 2:11:42.840 --> 2:11:45.960 being an active participant one way or the other, right, 2:11:47.080 --> 2:11:49.840 and what is happening to Palestinians. And so we kind 2:11:49.840 --> 2:11:52.720 of pushed the envelope on that, and you know, for 2:11:52.920 --> 2:11:59.000 us at Reams, that has yielded a real, ever expanding 2:11:59.080 --> 2:12:06.080 community of folks who have really maybe a few years ago, 2:12:06.400 --> 2:12:08.560 knew nothing about Palestine. We got to do it in 2:12:08.640 --> 2:12:11.680 a way that was right. And so we were you know, 2:12:11.840 --> 2:12:14.320 we met people where they're at. We bring them along. 2:12:14.360 --> 2:12:18.320 It's not like we're like, you know, beating anything over 2:12:18.480 --> 2:12:20.960 people's heads, but we're like, this is what it means 2:12:21.040 --> 2:12:24.000 to be truly authentically ourselves. This is our story, this 2:12:24.160 --> 2:12:26.880 is the history, this is the painful atrocities, And like, 2:12:26.920 --> 2:12:28.240 if you're going to eat our food, you have to 2:12:28.320 --> 2:12:30.960 engage with that in some way. Like it can't just 2:12:31.000 --> 2:12:34.360 be comfortable and like it's cool to eat Palestinian food. 2:12:34.400 --> 2:12:37.440 I don't want to see our food as a trend, right, Yeah, 2:12:37.720 --> 2:12:40.840 So while it's while it's cool to see a lot 2:12:40.880 --> 2:12:45.720 of Palestinian restaurants now gaining popularity, and hopefully, you know, 2:12:45.840 --> 2:12:48.840 REMS has paid some path for that we got to 2:12:48.880 --> 2:12:50.480 make sure that we're doing it in a way that's 2:12:52.680 --> 2:12:56.480 intentional and responsible so we don't get tokenized. 2:12:57.560 --> 2:13:00.960 I think one just like piggyback. One thought, one thought 2:13:01.000 --> 2:13:02.800 that you brought up Bream that I thought was really 2:13:02.880 --> 2:13:06.640 interesting was like being able to tell our own stories, 2:13:07.720 --> 2:13:09.200 and often we're not. 2:13:09.680 --> 2:13:09.960 We're not. 2:13:10.920 --> 2:13:12.480 And I think that relates to like a lot of 2:13:12.520 --> 2:13:15.640 what we've talked about today. But I mean even like 2:13:15.720 --> 2:13:19.520 sharing our own experiences, Like you know, I don't think 2:13:19.560 --> 2:13:22.600 it's necessarily a choice to be where you you know, 2:13:22.720 --> 2:13:24.600 to be who you are. It is what you are, 2:13:25.560 --> 2:13:31.839 and I think ultimately there's this real pressure for Arabs 2:13:32.040 --> 2:13:35.720 and in Palestinians as well, to sort of let other 2:13:35.880 --> 2:13:39.080 people tell our story for us, Let other people make 2:13:39.160 --> 2:13:43.320 the food, let other people photograph the traumas and the 2:13:43.440 --> 2:13:47.160 joy is like if you go to any like art 2:13:47.200 --> 2:13:50.240 bookstore and try to find like an Arab photographer photographing 2:13:50.280 --> 2:13:53.680 of their own people, whether it's the wars or the 2:13:53.840 --> 2:13:58.880 joy or art, like, you'll find maybe one, you know, 2:13:59.040 --> 2:14:00.640 And I've been to that and said, hey, do you 2:14:00.720 --> 2:14:02.480 have any I'm looking for like this, and I want 2:14:02.520 --> 2:14:05.560 it from an Arab person, And like the only one 2:14:05.640 --> 2:14:09.080 really is sharing a shot. Who's I'm Persian, But I 2:14:09.120 --> 2:14:10.800 don't know. I think it's I think it's just really 2:14:10.880 --> 2:14:15.560 interesting how I think there's like a real fear about 2:14:15.600 --> 2:14:18.520 talking about for a lot of us, about talking about 2:14:18.520 --> 2:14:24.240 our own experiences publicly. And I think a lot of that, 2:14:24.680 --> 2:14:26.960 A lot of that comes from just like being sort 2:14:27.000 --> 2:14:30.879 of conditioned in this country to minimize ourselves and minimize 2:14:30.920 --> 2:14:31.480 our identity. 2:14:31.520 --> 2:14:38.400 And I think essentially, well, there are real retributions for that. Yeah, 2:14:38.840 --> 2:14:42.440 we get jailed, we get deported, we get fired from 2:14:42.480 --> 2:14:46.720 our jobs. We don't get book deals, we don't get 2:14:47.120 --> 2:14:51.680 show deals. Yeah, as we're experiencing. So it's like that's real. 2:14:53.240 --> 2:14:55.200 Yeah, And I mean a lot of the a lot 2:14:55.240 --> 2:14:57.840 of the stuff we've a lot of the feedback we've 2:14:57.880 --> 2:15:00.360 gotten on the show. I mean early on, a couple 2:15:00.400 --> 2:15:03.720 of years ago, we started getting feedback that I mean 2:15:03.720 --> 2:15:06.400 there were like two or three when we first started pitching, 2:15:06.560 --> 2:15:08.720 and I won't call out names, but they were like 2:15:08.840 --> 2:15:13.520 major companies, and one of them was we already have 2:15:14.000 --> 2:15:17.200 like our minority food show. Like that was one of 2:15:17.320 --> 2:15:22.560 the literal pieces of feedback. And another one was and 2:15:22.680 --> 2:15:25.040 again like I just I know We've talked about Palestine 2:15:25.040 --> 2:15:29.280 a lot, but again, like the show is not necessarily 2:15:29.400 --> 2:15:32.520 centered around Palestinians. It's just us telling our own stories. 2:15:33.200 --> 2:15:36.240 And one of the pieces of feedback we got was 2:15:37.920 --> 2:15:42.200 they were worried that Reim and I like that our 2:15:42.320 --> 2:15:46.800 identities were too inherently political. And it's like, okay, but 2:15:47.200 --> 2:15:52.080 there's like nothing we can do about how you perceive us. 2:15:53.240 --> 2:15:55.240 What we can control is saying, hey, we want to 2:15:55.240 --> 2:15:57.960 make an Arab joy show, and we want to like 2:15:58.160 --> 2:16:00.240 show off the things we love about our called Sure, 2:16:00.800 --> 2:16:03.680 and we want to talk about how great the food tastes, 2:16:03.840 --> 2:16:07.680 and talk about stories like immigrant success stories of people 2:16:07.760 --> 2:16:10.560 coming to this country. And yeah, we'll talk about the trauma, 2:16:10.600 --> 2:16:12.640 and sure, we'll talk about the politics because that's what 2:16:12.720 --> 2:16:18.040 we're passionate about. But like to get that feedback even 2:16:18.320 --> 2:16:21.000 a couple of years ago, when you know, it seemed 2:16:21.040 --> 2:16:24.720 like everybody was sort of every culture or people were 2:16:24.760 --> 2:16:28.440 getting their turn to sort of shine, was I was like, really, 2:16:28.480 --> 2:16:30.600 are we still Are we still here right now? 2:16:31.000 --> 2:16:31.200 Yeah? 2:16:31.720 --> 2:16:36.960 And yeah, I mean it's gotten it's gotten weirder as 2:16:37.080 --> 2:16:41.880 time goes on, and you know, I don't know, no 2:16:42.000 --> 2:16:45.080 show exists like this in the way that probably no 2:16:45.160 --> 2:16:48.400 restaurant existed like Raim's did when she opened it. And 2:16:48.600 --> 2:16:50.720 I think it's going to take like someone who just 2:16:50.800 --> 2:16:52.440 really believes and is a champion for. 2:16:54.280 --> 2:16:55.160 Arab people. 2:16:57.120 --> 2:16:59.080 For us to make something that just shows how much 2:16:59.160 --> 2:17:01.120 we love our own peace people, and how excited we 2:17:01.240 --> 2:17:03.520 are to be Arab and how excited we are to 2:17:03.640 --> 2:17:07.120 be Palestinians, and how fucking awesome our food is and 2:17:07.240 --> 2:17:09.760 how great our culture is and how fun and exciting 2:17:09.800 --> 2:17:13.800 it is, and all these things that people love and eat. 2:17:14.440 --> 2:17:16.280 We just want to show them like where it comes 2:17:16.360 --> 2:17:19.200 from and who we are, and in addition to that, 2:17:19.480 --> 2:17:23.240 show that we're all regionally very different, like we call 2:17:24.000 --> 2:17:27.280 in this country. Every type of Arab food is called Mediterranean, 2:17:27.760 --> 2:17:32.160 whether it's Moroccan or Lebanese or Egyptian, and they're all 2:17:32.440 --> 2:17:37.800 so different, they're all wildly different. Yeah, And I think that, Yeah, 2:17:37.959 --> 2:17:40.000 like the fact that we haven't been able to tell 2:17:40.040 --> 2:17:43.160 this story is wild you know, like the fact that 2:17:43.280 --> 2:17:45.879 no one has and we've come really close. We've gotten 2:17:45.879 --> 2:17:49.520 into deals before, we've gotten into shopping agreements more recently, 2:17:50.360 --> 2:17:53.680 and sort of you know, the outcome felt punitive. After 2:17:53.800 --> 2:18:00.320 October seventh. And yeah, I think that ultimately the fact 2:18:00.360 --> 2:18:03.800 that like we we and it doesn't I you know, truly, 2:18:04.200 --> 2:18:07.000 I hope it's main rym but like the fact that 2:18:07.120 --> 2:18:09.640 no one has been able to tell this story for 2:18:09.840 --> 2:18:12.280 a group of people that is so huge in the 2:18:12.320 --> 2:18:15.760 Arab community, in the Muslim community, like that no one 2:18:15.800 --> 2:18:19.240 has been able to serve this demographic of people with 2:18:19.800 --> 2:18:25.920 a food show is wild and there's so many of 2:18:26.040 --> 2:18:29.720 us who would be so excited. I would be so excited, 2:18:30.360 --> 2:18:32.400 Like I would be bummed that it wasn't me, but 2:18:32.440 --> 2:18:33.680 I would be thrilled that. 2:18:33.760 --> 2:18:34.959 It happened for the community. 2:18:35.840 --> 2:18:39.480 And I don't know if not now when you know, 2:18:39.800 --> 2:18:44.120 like the time for the time for equity injustice as always. 2:18:44.480 --> 2:18:47.280 And I think that's generally how I sort of feel 2:18:47.280 --> 2:18:50.400 about the the show and just being able to like 2:18:50.480 --> 2:18:52.560 I just want to tell the story for my community 2:18:52.720 --> 2:18:57.200 so badly, And yeah, I mean, I don't know, I 2:18:57.440 --> 2:18:58.720 feel like I went on a bit of a tangent. 2:18:58.959 --> 2:19:00.760 That's kind of where I feel I am right now. 2:19:02.440 --> 2:19:05.959 Well, in a time of in a time of genocide 2:19:06.000 --> 2:19:09.480 where literally are people and this is not just past that, 2:19:09.560 --> 2:19:13.800 it's not you know, there's a regional are the dehumanization 2:19:13.959 --> 2:19:19.959 of Arabs is costing us lives. Yeah, so it feels 2:19:20.080 --> 2:19:22.080 that much more important. 2:19:23.280 --> 2:19:24.400 To do this work now. 2:19:24.959 --> 2:19:25.039 Ye. 2:19:25.879 --> 2:19:32.039 People are so used to seeing us seeing Arabs like traumatized, 2:19:32.080 --> 2:19:34.040 are used to seeing us in pain. They're used to 2:19:34.040 --> 2:19:37.720 seeing our countries destroyed and seeing our buildings turn into rubble. 2:19:37.760 --> 2:19:40.800 I think so much of our culture is so beautiful, 2:19:40.959 --> 2:19:43.280 and so much of it is about food and art 2:19:43.480 --> 2:19:49.160 and joy. I think it's really Yeah, I would be 2:19:49.240 --> 2:19:52.080 so excited for that show too, because I if I 2:19:52.160 --> 2:19:54.160 was a little kid watching that, I would have felt 2:19:54.200 --> 2:19:56.360 so much better about myself. And to your point a 2:19:56.400 --> 2:20:00.920 couple minutes ago, Realm, you were talking about how you're 2:20:00.920 --> 2:20:05.000 not exactly a mediator, but growing up, there's almost this 2:20:05.200 --> 2:20:07.560 like shame about having like you're not Arab enough, you're 2:20:07.560 --> 2:20:09.680 not American enough. You have a foot in both worlds. 2:20:09.959 --> 2:20:13.240 But it's really a strength, you know, in your experience 2:20:13.280 --> 2:20:17.040 and in our experience, Like we can use that foot 2:20:17.080 --> 2:20:20.199 in both worlds to our advantage and try to show 2:20:20.320 --> 2:20:23.920 the American community how beautiful our community is. And I 2:20:23.959 --> 2:20:29.400 don't know, I think it's yeah, I love you guys. 2:20:32.600 --> 2:20:34.440 That's what it comes down to it. 2:20:34.840 --> 2:20:39.840 Yeah, but I really do appreciate you both doing this work, 2:20:40.160 --> 2:20:46.480 and yeah, reminding us that it's Arab culture isn't something 2:20:46.520 --> 2:20:48.960 to be feared. I don't know that the humanization has 2:20:49.000 --> 2:20:51.000 gotten to a point that it's just really terrifying. And 2:20:51.120 --> 2:20:53.400 so I think the fact that even existing is like 2:20:54.200 --> 2:20:57.840 political or scary, and yeah, you to your point, everything 2:20:57.959 --> 2:21:01.360 is so much more digestible for people an Arab or 2:21:01.440 --> 2:21:03.840 than Muslim or whatever. Like in La we have a 2:21:03.959 --> 2:21:08.360 huge Armenian community and they're really embraced, and I would 2:21:08.400 --> 2:21:09.879 love that to happen for us too. 2:21:10.640 --> 2:21:14.240 The backlash of being Arab feels very real and visceral 2:21:14.400 --> 2:21:17.880 right now, feels like we are in a time of 2:21:18.440 --> 2:21:24.680 the years after nine eleven again, and especially with this 2:21:25.560 --> 2:21:31.360 upcoming election in twenty twenty four, it's a really, I 2:21:31.440 --> 2:21:40.320 think a scary time of censorship for Arabs in general 2:21:40.920 --> 2:21:48.560 and Muslim communities. Regardless of who the candidate who wins 2:21:48.640 --> 2:21:55.119 our political campaign, it's quite clear that the policies towards us, 2:21:56.000 --> 2:21:58.440 you know, the foreign policy, but also domestically, how that 2:21:58.640 --> 2:22:04.560 has translated into hate crimes against Arabs simply for being 2:22:04.640 --> 2:22:09.400 Arab is a really scary thing. And so yeah, it's 2:22:09.560 --> 2:22:13.040 just a new thing that we're going to have to 2:22:13.160 --> 2:22:15.840 navigate in this in this new era. 2:22:17.480 --> 2:22:20.640 Yeah, I think on that note, like community is so 2:22:20.720 --> 2:22:23.960 important and I'm really grateful to continue to foster the 2:22:24.000 --> 2:22:28.720 community around me as well. And I think with food, 2:22:29.520 --> 2:22:32.520 with Palestinian culture in general, it relies so much on 2:22:32.760 --> 2:22:36.200 us remembering and continuing to talk about it and not 2:22:36.480 --> 2:22:38.879 letting anyone forget about it. And so I think food 2:22:39.000 --> 2:22:41.600 is the same way. It's just reminding everyone this is 2:22:41.640 --> 2:22:43.600 where it comes from, this is how important it is, 2:22:44.000 --> 2:22:46.120 this is what it means to the culture. You can't 2:22:46.240 --> 2:22:47.920 enjoy some of our culture and not all of it, 2:22:48.040 --> 2:22:49.920 I guess, And I feel like that happens all the time. 2:22:50.400 --> 2:22:52.760 I really appreciate you guys both being on the show 2:22:52.959 --> 2:22:57.000 and talking a little bit about your stories, and yeah, 2:22:57.520 --> 2:23:00.640 I can't wait to see the show happen day because 2:23:00.640 --> 2:23:02.359 it will happen awesome. 2:23:02.600 --> 2:23:06.959 Thank you. Yeah, thanks for the work that I'm doing, 2:23:07.320 --> 2:23:13.240 especially as it relates to food and hospitality. I was 2:23:13.320 --> 2:23:16.480 one of the founders of an effort called Hospitality for Humanity, 2:23:17.360 --> 2:23:22.080 and you can find us on at Hospitality the. 2:23:22.160 --> 2:23:24.560 Number four pal P a L. 2:23:25.280 --> 2:23:29.200 You know, we continue to do things at REMS and 2:23:29.320 --> 2:23:32.080 you can see us on the socials at REEMS, California, 2:23:33.600 --> 2:23:37.440 and then you can obviously follow my whereabouts at rem 2:23:38.920 --> 2:23:40.039 dot A seal. 2:23:39.959 --> 2:23:40.720 A s Sil. 2:23:41.480 --> 2:23:43.480 I could put all your links in the description as well, 2:23:44.240 --> 2:23:45.520 but you're real. Do you want to be found on 2:23:45.600 --> 2:23:46.000 the internet? 2:23:46.080 --> 2:23:47.439 And if so, where. 2:23:49.240 --> 2:23:50.360 I don't know how much I want to be found 2:23:50.400 --> 2:23:50.840 on the internet. 2:23:50.959 --> 2:23:53.680 I will plug that. I think everyone should call. 2:23:53.600 --> 2:23:57.720 Their senators and demand a ceasefire immediately, and also consider 2:23:57.800 --> 2:24:01.440 donating to one of many nonprofits, but the one that 2:24:01.720 --> 2:24:07.200 I have is Gaza Emergency Appeal, and uh, just ask 2:24:07.280 --> 2:24:10.039 for a ceasefire as much as possible. But also if somebody. 2:24:09.879 --> 2:24:11.200 Demanded, they'll find me. 2:24:12.680 --> 2:24:19.280 Demand demanded. Don't ask, sir, please can I have? Can 2:24:19.320 --> 2:24:19.560 I have a? 2:24:22.160 --> 2:24:22.480 Please? 2:24:22.760 --> 2:24:26.640 But no, please, everyone that's listening, keep talking about Palestine, 2:24:26.760 --> 2:24:32.760 keep sharing info from Palestinians themselves, and yeah three Palestine. 2:24:34.879 --> 2:24:52.160 Yes, Hello, and welcome back to It could happen here. 2:24:52.400 --> 2:24:55.000 I am once again your guest host, Molly Conger, and 2:24:55.160 --> 2:24:57.600 today I'm going to tell you about something that is 2:24:58.080 --> 2:25:03.600 happening here. Being my hometown of Charlottesville, Virginia. You might 2:25:03.640 --> 2:25:06.320 have seen the news recently that Patriot Front leader Thomas 2:25:06.440 --> 2:25:08.760 Ryan Russou was arrested in Texas on an out of 2:25:08.800 --> 2:25:13.360 state felony warrant. On February twenty third, authorities in McLennan County, Texas, 2:25:13.480 --> 2:25:16.800 arrested Rousseau and poked him into the county jail. The 2:25:16.879 --> 2:25:20.920 jail roster lists the offense as burn object to intimidate 2:25:21.320 --> 2:25:25.440 OH slash s that OS means out of state, and 2:25:25.560 --> 2:25:28.760 it lists Virginia as the state issuing the warrant. And 2:25:28.879 --> 2:25:31.640 Rousseau's arrest certainly made a splash when the news hit 2:25:31.800 --> 2:25:34.760 Nazi telegram channels lit up with posts about his arrest. 2:25:34.920 --> 2:25:38.520 Gab feeds were flooded with hastily made graphics decrying this 2:25:38.680 --> 2:25:42.720 political persecution. This sudden spike and interest in a little 2:25:42.800 --> 2:25:46.040 used Virginia Code section might make you think Rousseau was 2:25:46.080 --> 2:25:48.480 the first person to be taken into custody on this charge, 2:25:49.040 --> 2:25:51.840 that perhaps he was targeted for arrest in some kind 2:25:51.840 --> 2:25:54.400 of grand political plan to take him out of the game. 2:25:55.480 --> 2:25:58.560 But he is in fact the eleventh person to be 2:25:58.680 --> 2:26:01.440 arrested in just the last year for participating in the 2:26:01.480 --> 2:26:04.879 Tiki Torch march at the University of Virginia on August eleventh, 2:26:05.160 --> 2:26:08.640 twenty seventeen. These cases have been working their way through 2:26:08.640 --> 2:26:11.120 the system here for long enough that some of Rousseau's 2:26:11.120 --> 2:26:14.320 code defendants have not only already been found guilty, they've 2:26:14.440 --> 2:26:17.440 served their time and gotten back out. But with this 2:26:17.560 --> 2:26:20.000 sudden surge and interest in this case, I want to 2:26:20.000 --> 2:26:22.119 give you all a little background on the other ten. 2:26:23.120 --> 2:26:25.280 If you'll indulge me for a moment, though, I'd like 2:26:25.320 --> 2:26:27.160 to read you something I wrote nearly a year ago, 2:26:28.080 --> 2:26:31.760 just as the first cases were being unsealed. There is 2:26:31.840 --> 2:26:35.320 no statute of limitations on felonies in Virginia. With that 2:26:35.480 --> 2:26:39.080 in mind, here's section eighteen point two Dash four twenty 2:26:39.120 --> 2:26:43.080 three point oh one Dash B of the Code of Virginia. 2:26:44.160 --> 2:26:47.320 Burning object on property of another or a highway or 2:26:47.360 --> 2:26:51.320 other public place with intent to intimidate. Any person who, 2:26:51.600 --> 2:26:54.560 with the intent of intimidating any person or group of persons, 2:26:54.760 --> 2:26:57.200 burns an object on a highway or other public place 2:26:57.680 --> 2:26:59.920 in a manner having a direct tendency to place another 2:27:00.000 --> 2:27:02.560 their person in reasonable fear or apprehension of death or 2:27:02.600 --> 2:27:07.120 bodily injury, is guilty of a Class six felony On 2:27:07.200 --> 2:27:11.720 August eleventh, twenty seventeen, hundreds of torch bearing marchers traversed 2:27:11.760 --> 2:27:14.800 the grounds of the University of Virginia. They'd come to 2:27:14.920 --> 2:27:18.520 Charllettsville from across the country, taking Friday morning flights or 2:27:18.600 --> 2:27:20.800 taking turns at the wheel for cross country drives, and 2:27:20.840 --> 2:27:24.520 rented vans with guys they met on message boards. Arriving 2:27:24.560 --> 2:27:27.600 early before the big event. The following morning, they gathered 2:27:27.600 --> 2:27:30.880 at Nameless Field, a grassy acre near the Via tennis 2:27:30.920 --> 2:27:35.200 courts with a deceptive name, and distributed tiki torches. Men 2:27:35.280 --> 2:27:38.480 with walkie talkies clipped to their belts, some with wired earpieces, 2:27:38.720 --> 2:27:43.000 barked orders. Elliot Kleine, an ambitious young white nationalist organizer 2:27:43.080 --> 2:27:46.520 calling himself Eli Moseley after the twentieth century British fascist 2:27:46.760 --> 2:27:49.840 Oswald Moseley, shouted at the crowd as they formed into 2:27:49.920 --> 2:27:54.720 a line. Or picking big guys no females. Klein and 2:27:54.800 --> 2:27:57.160 his security team would be selecting the biggest marshers to 2:27:57.240 --> 2:27:59.520 lay down their torches and keep the perimeter as the 2:27:59.560 --> 2:28:02.560 march moved moved through the university grounds, they might need 2:28:02.600 --> 2:28:05.880 their hands free. The march wound its way through grounds 2:28:06.320 --> 2:28:08.560 up the lawn, then up the steps of the University 2:28:08.600 --> 2:28:12.120 of Virginia's iconic rotunda. On the other side of the rotunda, 2:28:12.240 --> 2:28:15.480 gathered near the statue of Thomas Jefferson, a small group 2:28:15.520 --> 2:28:19.360 of anti racist protesters waited. In her testimony during a 2:28:19.400 --> 2:28:21.680 later civil trial, one of the women who was terrorized 2:28:21.720 --> 2:28:23.840 that night said of the sound of the approaching crowd, 2:28:24.920 --> 2:28:27.840 when we heard the roaring, we just linked arms and 2:28:27.920 --> 2:28:30.000 held hands and started to sing. 2:28:31.120 --> 2:28:31.440 She said. 2:28:31.440 --> 2:28:36.240 At first it sounded like thunder, like the earth was growling. 2:28:37.320 --> 2:28:39.440 As they grew closer, but before she could see the 2:28:39.520 --> 2:28:41.960 light of the torches, she began to make out the 2:28:42.080 --> 2:28:47.279 chance hundreds of voices raised in Unison, shouting blood and soil. 2:28:48.400 --> 2:28:51.360 Testifying about that night four years later, she said she 2:28:51.440 --> 2:28:55.520 could still hear it sometimes in her nightmares, and by 2:28:55.560 --> 2:28:58.080 the time the small group of mostly students realized the 2:28:58.160 --> 2:29:01.320 magnitude and ferocity of the approaching it was too late. 2:29:02.160 --> 2:29:04.880 They were surrounded, fully encircled at the base of the 2:29:04.920 --> 2:29:08.920 statue by hundreds of torch wielding white supremacists for a 2:29:09.000 --> 2:29:11.480 few minutes, minutes that those trapped at the base of 2:29:11.520 --> 2:29:13.879 the statue said they believed might be their last, as 2:29:13.920 --> 2:29:17.039 they were doused in lighter fluid, maced and punched. There 2:29:17.120 --> 2:29:20.039 was a melee. The police made no move to intervene, 2:29:20.080 --> 2:29:22.840 as streams of pepper spray were let loose and cries 2:29:22.879 --> 2:29:25.880 of medic were audible above the roar of you will 2:29:25.959 --> 2:29:29.680 not replace us. When the trapped counter protesters were finally 2:29:29.720 --> 2:29:32.879 able to flee, stumbling blindly with burning eyes and covering 2:29:32.920 --> 2:29:35.240 their heads in a hail storm of fists and torches, 2:29:35.920 --> 2:29:40.240 the marchers declared victory. Richard Spencer, an organizer of that 2:29:40.320 --> 2:29:42.880 weekend's rally, climbed the base of the statue and delivered 2:29:42.879 --> 2:29:46.600 a victory speech to the still roaring crowd, now shouting hail, victory, 2:29:46.760 --> 2:29:50.960 hail's Spencer, as Spencer told them, we occupy this ground, 2:29:51.440 --> 2:30:02.400 we one, that is why don't they cry? 2:30:12.680 --> 2:30:16.840 There? All right? All right, all right? 2:30:17.120 --> 2:30:18.359 Were these freaks? 2:30:19.000 --> 2:30:19.280 We on? 2:30:19.520 --> 2:30:21.760 These freaks we are he's. 2:30:21.680 --> 2:30:31.120 Brown, We on these one. What in the hell are 2:30:31.200 --> 2:30:33.480 we doing out here? What in the hell are we doing? 2:30:33.600 --> 2:30:37.920 Risking our lives? Were risking our lives for our people, 2:30:38.240 --> 2:30:42.160 for our ancestors, for our future. That's how we're doing. 2:30:48.879 --> 2:30:51.640 What do you think it? Anti fock can defeat our 2:30:51.879 --> 2:30:55.200 wrong do you think it anti focking to feed our group. 2:30:55.640 --> 2:30:59.039 They have to because they have to go to fix line. 2:31:00.080 --> 2:31:03.879 The marchers dispersed to their various hotels, campgrounds, and Arabian bees. 2:31:04.440 --> 2:31:07.000 Spencer later said cheekly that he booked his under the 2:31:07.000 --> 2:31:11.600 pseudonym literally Hitler. They had to rest up for the 2:31:11.640 --> 2:31:15.320 real battle in the morning, and while they slept, a 2:31:15.400 --> 2:31:18.720 young man from Ohio was driving through the night, perhaps 2:31:18.760 --> 2:31:21.680 already knowing that his gray Dodge Challenger would be impounded 2:31:21.720 --> 2:31:25.560 as a murder weapon. Before he slept again, he checked 2:31:25.600 --> 2:31:29.600 Twitter and retweeted a post David Duke had tweeted images 2:31:29.640 --> 2:31:32.920 of the Torch March celebrating the Altright's success that evening 2:31:33.040 --> 2:31:36.400 with the caption our people on the march, will you 2:31:36.600 --> 2:31:39.680 be at Unite the Right tomorrow? As he left Ohio 2:31:39.800 --> 2:31:42.160 that evening, the young man and the Dodge Challenger got 2:31:42.200 --> 2:31:45.039 a text from his mother, a text we've all probably 2:31:45.080 --> 2:31:50.400 gotten from our mothers. She said, be careful, and James 2:31:50.440 --> 2:31:53.000 Alexfield's junior, in one of the last texts he sent 2:31:53.160 --> 2:31:57.000 before a lifetime behind bars, replied to his mother with 2:31:57.080 --> 2:32:00.720 a photograph of Hitler and the words we are not 2:32:00.920 --> 2:32:06.040 the ones who need to be careful. Years later, the 2:32:06.120 --> 2:32:09.720 word charles Ville has become synonymous with those two fused images, 2:32:10.160 --> 2:32:13.800 Fields's mangled challenger and an iconic photo of the crowd 2:32:14.160 --> 2:32:18.480 torches and hands the rotunda at their backs. Fields was 2:32:18.560 --> 2:32:21.520 convicted both in state and federal court of Heather Hire's 2:32:21.600 --> 2:32:25.840 murder and multiple counts of aggravated malicious wounding. Daniel Bordon, 2:32:26.000 --> 2:32:29.840 Alex Ramos, Jacob Goodwin, and Tyler Watkins went away for 2:32:29.879 --> 2:32:33.320 a brutal gang beating of a young black man. Richard Preston, 2:32:33.400 --> 2:32:35.920 an imperial wizard in the Ku Klux Klan, did some 2:32:36.040 --> 2:32:38.440 time for discharging his firearm in the general direction of 2:32:38.440 --> 2:32:43.040 another young black man while shouting die and word. But 2:32:43.160 --> 2:32:45.200 all in all, for all the violence of both days, 2:32:45.520 --> 2:32:47.840 there was a curious reluctance to bring charges for anything 2:32:47.879 --> 2:32:50.600 that didn't rise to the level of attempted murder, and 2:32:50.720 --> 2:32:54.280 some things that did. There are thousands of photographs videos 2:32:54.280 --> 2:32:58.759 from every conceivable angle taken by victims, bystanders, professional photojournalists, 2:32:58.800 --> 2:33:03.320 and even the marchers themselves. Their faces are uncovered, their 2:33:03.400 --> 2:33:08.400 motives are clear, and the law is fairly straightforward. But 2:33:08.480 --> 2:33:11.840 the University of Virginia lies within the jurisdiction of Albemarle County. 2:33:12.560 --> 2:33:16.240 In twenty seventeen, Apomwalle County Commonweal's attorney, Robert Tracy, chose 2:33:16.320 --> 2:33:19.040 not to bring any burning objects cases under Section eighteen 2:33:19.080 --> 2:33:21.760 point two Dash four twenty three. He didn't think he 2:33:21.800 --> 2:33:24.760 could make a case against the tiki torch mob, or 2:33:24.800 --> 2:33:28.000 maybe he didn't want to. The Commonweal's attorney for the 2:33:28.040 --> 2:33:30.200 City of Charlesville at the time, Dave Chapman, wrote in 2:33:30.200 --> 2:33:32.120 a memo in October of that year that he did 2:33:32.200 --> 2:33:34.880 believe the cases could be made, but they weren't his 2:33:35.040 --> 2:33:39.320 to prosecute. But in Virginia, prosecutors come and go, and 2:33:39.400 --> 2:33:43.760 a felony lives forever. In a October twenty nineteen debate 2:33:43.840 --> 2:33:47.600 between then sitting Prosecutor Robert Tracy and his challenger, Jim Hinchley, 2:33:48.680 --> 2:33:51.440 Tracy again scoffed at the idea of indicting these cases, 2:33:52.400 --> 2:33:55.000 even saying that Hindley's belief that it was possible was 2:33:55.040 --> 2:33:57.240 a sign he was inexperienced and wrong for the job. 2:33:58.520 --> 2:34:02.320 A month later, Hine won the election, and now it 2:34:02.400 --> 2:34:04.760 seems he's trying to make good on his campaign promise 2:34:05.120 --> 2:34:08.560 of proving Robert Tracy wrong. In February twenty twenty three, 2:34:08.600 --> 2:34:12.320 the Albumole County Commonwealth' Attorney's office quietly sought and got 2:34:12.760 --> 2:34:16.360 indictments under the Burning Object Statute. A grand jury agreed 2:34:16.400 --> 2:34:19.960 with Hingeley there was probable cause to believe that objects 2:34:20.000 --> 2:34:24.080 had been burned with the intent to intimidate. Fugitive warrants 2:34:24.120 --> 2:34:27.080 were issued, arrests were made by local police and far 2:34:27.200 --> 2:34:31.400 ranging jurisdictions, And now, nearly six years after that hot 2:34:31.480 --> 2:34:35.480 night in August, the extraditions are starting. I want to 2:34:35.520 --> 2:34:37.280 share with you the stories of the men who carried 2:34:37.320 --> 2:34:40.320 torches that night. Some of them are now facing felony 2:34:40.400 --> 2:34:44.039 charges of Almorole County. Others may come to share that fate. 2:34:45.120 --> 2:34:47.400 After the crowd dispersed that night, and after the deadly 2:34:47.480 --> 2:34:52.160 rally the next morning, those men went home. Some started businesses, 2:34:52.920 --> 2:34:57.760 some died, Some trafficked drugs, beat their wives, choked their girlfriends, 2:34:57.840 --> 2:35:00.760 went to grad school, went to prison, started families, ran 2:35:00.840 --> 2:35:04.080 for office, left the movement, tried to lead the movement, 2:35:04.840 --> 2:35:07.920 or just tried to disappear. There are as many stories 2:35:07.959 --> 2:35:10.080 as there were flames in the night. When their voices 2:35:10.160 --> 2:35:16.160 joined as one shouting Jews will not replace us, then 2:35:16.320 --> 2:35:19.959 going their separate ways back to the communities they came from. 2:35:21.440 --> 2:35:24.360 And now some of them are on their way back, 2:35:25.560 --> 2:35:30.160 this time against their will. So I wrote that about 2:35:30.200 --> 2:35:32.520 ten months ago, last April, just as the first cases 2:35:32.560 --> 2:35:36.520 were unsealed. Obviously a lot's happened since then. But before 2:35:36.560 --> 2:35:38.800 I get into a recap of those first ten cases, 2:35:38.959 --> 2:35:42.640 let's hear a brief word about some products and services. 2:35:53.959 --> 2:35:57.800 So if Thomas Rousseau is number eleven on this list 2:35:57.879 --> 2:36:01.640 of tiki torch defendants, they were the first ten. The 2:36:01.680 --> 2:36:04.240 grand jury that convened in February of last year handed 2:36:04.280 --> 2:36:09.880 down the first five indictments. Will Zachary Smith, William Billy Williams, 2:36:10.440 --> 2:36:15.440 Tyler Dykes, Dallas, Medina, and William Fears. Will Smith of Nacona, 2:36:15.520 --> 2:36:19.400 Texas was the first in custody. He was actually already 2:36:19.480 --> 2:36:22.240 in custody here in Charlottesville when the first charges were filed. 2:36:23.160 --> 2:36:25.440 He had been indicted on a separate felony charge back 2:36:25.440 --> 2:36:28.480 in twenty eighteen for pepper spraying the counter protesters that night, 2:36:28.879 --> 2:36:31.520 but remained a fugitive until his arrest in January twenty 2:36:31.600 --> 2:36:34.760 twenty three. So when the prosecutor brought the torch charges 2:36:34.800 --> 2:36:37.000 to the grand jury in February. It was probably an 2:36:37.000 --> 2:36:40.600 easy first choice. Will Smith pled guilty to the torch 2:36:40.720 --> 2:36:43.760 charge in May in a sealed plea deal that dropped 2:36:43.840 --> 2:36:47.840 the much more serious pepper spray felony, and was allowed 2:36:47.840 --> 2:36:52.680 to return home without being sentenced. Billy Williams traveled here 2:36:52.760 --> 2:36:55.760 with will Smith back in twenty seventeen. The pair were 2:36:55.800 --> 2:37:00.000 acting as bodyguards for Robert Hasmadore Ray, the Daily Stormer bloger, 2:37:00.160 --> 2:37:03.960 who is actually also still a wanted fugitive on a 2:37:04.040 --> 2:37:06.959 felony charge of pepper spraying those counter protesters that night. 2:37:08.520 --> 2:37:11.160 When Billy Williams was extradited from Texas in April of 2:37:11.280 --> 2:37:16.679 last year, he was denied bond after some apparent dishonesty 2:37:17.480 --> 2:37:20.960 regarding his relationship with Robert Ray. Through his attorney, he 2:37:21.200 --> 2:37:23.760 denied having had any contact with Ray while he was 2:37:23.800 --> 2:37:27.400 a fugitive. He in fact claimed they barely knew each other, 2:37:27.480 --> 2:37:30.240 having met only a couple of times. I can tell 2:37:30.240 --> 2:37:34.200 you that that's not true. But after claiming that they'd 2:37:34.200 --> 2:37:38.040 had no contact in the intervening years, the prosecutor revealed 2:37:38.080 --> 2:37:41.200 in the bond hearing that law enforcement partners had shared 2:37:41.240 --> 2:37:44.800 information with his office that they believe that not only 2:37:44.840 --> 2:37:47.320 had they been contact, but that Ray had been living 2:37:47.440 --> 2:37:50.440 with Williams living on his property while he was in 2:37:50.560 --> 2:37:54.240 hiding as a fugitive. Williams two pled guilty to the 2:37:54.280 --> 2:37:57.480 burning object charge in July, receiving an active sentence of 2:37:57.520 --> 2:38:01.280 six months but with times and good behavior. He was 2:38:01.360 --> 2:38:04.760 home barely two weeks after entering his plea, but not 2:38:04.920 --> 2:38:07.760 before he missed the birth of his seventh child with 2:38:07.840 --> 2:38:11.080 his common law wife. Tyler Diykes was arrested on Saint 2:38:11.120 --> 2:38:13.480 Patrick's Day. He'd been out with other members of the 2:38:13.520 --> 2:38:16.760 white supremacist group the Southern Son's Active Club, trying to 2:38:16.840 --> 2:38:19.840 hang a racist banner from a highway overpass in Savannah, Georgia, 2:38:20.320 --> 2:38:23.760 when he was unfortunately bitten by a dog. I do 2:38:23.920 --> 2:38:26.160 not have information on what came of the dog. I 2:38:26.240 --> 2:38:30.280 hope he's okay, concerned about infection though. Tyler Diykes went 2:38:30.320 --> 2:38:32.360 to the emergency room to have the wound looked at. 2:38:33.040 --> 2:38:35.800 In Georgia, as in most states, emergency rooms contact the 2:38:35.840 --> 2:38:39.600 police to report dog bite injuries. An officer was dispatched 2:38:39.600 --> 2:38:41.640 to the hospital to take a report from Dikes about 2:38:41.640 --> 2:38:44.760 the dog bite incident, which is a fairly routine situation. 2:38:46.480 --> 2:38:50.160 But somewhere during their interaction in the hospital, the officer 2:38:50.280 --> 2:38:53.240 ran Dyke's name to the system and it came back 2:38:53.280 --> 2:38:56.879 with a warrant. A panicked Dikes sent his hate group 2:38:56.920 --> 2:39:02.640 group chat a quick text arrested by Virginia nuke my account. 2:39:03.879 --> 2:39:05.840 In video of the melee the base of the statue 2:39:05.920 --> 2:39:08.600 on August eleven, twenty seventeen, Dykes can be seen throwing 2:39:08.640 --> 2:39:13.400 punches even after everyone else had stopped, and then celebrating 2:39:13.440 --> 2:39:16.039 the victory by marching around in a weird, tight little 2:39:16.080 --> 2:39:18.840 circle with his right arm extended in a Nazi salute. 2:39:19.600 --> 2:39:21.800 Diykes pled guilty to the torch charge in May and 2:39:21.879 --> 2:39:24.240 received the same six month act of sentence Williams had 2:39:24.280 --> 2:39:27.560 gotten with time served and good behavior. He was released 2:39:27.600 --> 2:39:30.120 in July. I wonder if he expected to see his 2:39:30.200 --> 2:39:32.520 elderly parents waiting for him in the parking lot outside 2:39:32.560 --> 2:39:35.520 the album ArHL Charltsville Regional Jail that day, but he 2:39:35.640 --> 2:39:38.480 never made it that far. U S Marshals took him 2:39:38.480 --> 2:39:41.959 into federal custody before he ever walked outside. He's currently 2:39:42.040 --> 2:39:44.360 out on bond awaiting trial on ten counts for his 2:39:44.480 --> 2:39:48.840 participation in the January sixth insurrection. Dallas Medina of Ohio 2:39:49.000 --> 2:39:51.560 turned himself in in April and was allowed to return 2:39:51.640 --> 2:39:54.520 home on bond. He had been an active member of 2:39:54.520 --> 2:39:58.199 an extremely online group of mass shooting enthusiasts calling themselves 2:39:58.360 --> 2:40:01.760 the Bowl Patrol, so named after the bull cut hairstyles 2:40:01.760 --> 2:40:05.320 sported by their idol Dylan Roof. After a feud with 2:40:05.440 --> 2:40:08.720 Chris the Crying Nazi Catwell ended with Catwell in federal prison. 2:40:09.280 --> 2:40:11.520 The group more or less fell apart in twenty twenty. 2:40:12.400 --> 2:40:15.560 Mendina hasn't appeared in court since his bond hearing in April, 2:40:16.280 --> 2:40:19.400 and he doesn't yet have a trial date. William Fiers 2:40:19.480 --> 2:40:21.800 was booked into the album L Charlesville Regional Jail in 2:40:21.959 --> 2:40:24.480 June after being transferred from the Texas prison where he 2:40:24.600 --> 2:40:28.040 was serving a sentence for domestic violence. Just two months 2:40:28.080 --> 2:40:31.000 after Unite the Right, William Fears beat and choked his girlfriend. 2:40:32.959 --> 2:40:35.280 A few days later, he traveled to Florida with his brother, 2:40:35.400 --> 2:40:37.959 Colton Fears and their friend Tyler Tenbrink to see Richard 2:40:38.040 --> 2:40:41.080 Spencer's speech at the University of Florida. He knew when 2:40:41.080 --> 2:40:43.120 he left town for Gainesville that week that his girlfriend 2:40:43.160 --> 2:40:46.680 had reported the assault. Having already been to prison for 2:40:46.879 --> 2:40:50.960 abducting and stabbing a different ex girlfriend years earlier, he 2:40:51.040 --> 2:40:53.160 knew another conviction would put him away for a while, 2:40:53.800 --> 2:40:56.880 and he wanted one last shot at starting the race 2:40:56.959 --> 2:41:00.280 war before they got him. In video from the Torch March, 2:41:00.320 --> 2:41:02.440 William Fears can be seen swinging his torch at a 2:41:02.480 --> 2:41:08.160 counter protester, screaming Die Commie. Fears remains in custody but 2:41:08.280 --> 2:41:11.760 does not yet have a trial date. William's brother, Colton Fears, 2:41:11.920 --> 2:41:14.680 joined him at the Albumarl Charlesville Regional Jail in September. 2:41:15.480 --> 2:41:18.000 I suspect the jail probably kept them separated, but it 2:41:18.200 --> 2:41:20.080 still would have been the closest the brothers had been 2:41:20.120 --> 2:41:23.359 in years. When the brothers were in Gainesville in October 2:41:23.400 --> 2:41:26.160 of twenty seventeen, their friend Tyler Tenbrink shot at a 2:41:26.200 --> 2:41:30.720 group of anti fascist counter protesters after Richard Spencer's speech. Thankfully, 2:41:30.879 --> 2:41:33.800 no one was injured, but Tenbrink was convicted of attempted 2:41:33.840 --> 2:41:37.600 first degree homicide. Colton Fears was driving the car when 2:41:37.640 --> 2:41:39.480 the men left the scene of the shooting and spent 2:41:39.600 --> 2:41:42.000 five years in a Florida prison for accessory after the 2:41:42.040 --> 2:41:45.800 fact to attempted first degree homicide. Colton was released in 2:41:45.840 --> 2:41:48.680 twenty twenty two and returned home to Texas, where he 2:41:48.959 --> 2:41:51.200 was then arrested in August twenty twenty three on the 2:41:51.240 --> 2:41:55.000 burning object charge. After pleading guilty in October, he was 2:41:55.040 --> 2:41:59.360 allowed to return home prior to sentencing Ryan Roy of 2:41:59.440 --> 2:42:02.880 Vermont and himself in in May. If you've been reading 2:42:02.959 --> 2:42:06.240 the voluminous leagues that seem to be constantly springing forth 2:42:06.320 --> 2:42:09.440 from Patriot Front's online comms, you may know him better 2:42:09.520 --> 2:42:13.120 as Rex. It looks like he's stayed quite busy in 2:42:13.120 --> 2:42:14.880 the years since Unite the Right as a member of 2:42:14.920 --> 2:42:17.720 Patriot Front. He is currently home on bond and does 2:42:17.800 --> 2:42:21.040 not yet have a trial date. Jamie Troutman of West 2:42:21.080 --> 2:42:25.240 Virginia turned himself in in October under the pseudonym Altright VA. 2:42:25.560 --> 2:42:27.960 Troutman was an active organizer and planner of the Unite 2:42:28.000 --> 2:42:30.160 the Right rally. He was present at many of the 2:42:30.240 --> 2:42:32.720 precursor events that took place here in Charlesville during the 2:42:32.720 --> 2:42:36.440 Summer of Hate, including the two other torch marches smaller 2:42:36.520 --> 2:42:39.720 torchlit rallies that were held in downtown Charlottesville in May 2:42:39.840 --> 2:42:44.520 and October of that year. Like Dyke's photos show, Troutman 2:42:44.720 --> 2:42:47.040 was present at the Capitol on January sixth, though in 2:42:47.120 --> 2:42:50.800 Troutman's case no charges have been filed. He too is 2:42:50.879 --> 2:42:54.000 home on bond with no trial date set. And before 2:42:54.040 --> 2:42:56.320 we get to the last two of those first ten cases, 2:42:56.400 --> 2:42:59.039 let's hear from someone who has also not been charged 2:42:59.040 --> 2:43:01.520 in connection with the mill reactionary attempt to overthrow the 2:43:01.600 --> 2:43:16.920 US government these products and services. The final two of 2:43:17.000 --> 2:43:21.280 these first ten torch cases are the messy ones. So 2:43:21.320 --> 2:43:23.879 we've got these four guilty please, and we've got four 2:43:23.959 --> 2:43:26.680 cases that are sort of moving along slowly down the 2:43:26.800 --> 2:43:29.840 usual path. And then we've got two cases where the 2:43:29.879 --> 2:43:33.199 defendants have had some success bogging the cases down with motions. 2:43:34.520 --> 2:43:38.200 Jacob Dix of Ohio was arrested in July. Dix is 2:43:38.240 --> 2:43:40.320 seen in photos and video on the eleventh and twelfth 2:43:40.400 --> 2:43:43.440 with two other Ohio men, his roommate Ryan Martin, who 2:43:43.520 --> 2:43:46.400 recently passed away, and Daniel Borden, one of the men 2:43:46.760 --> 2:43:49.120 convicted of beating a man nearly to death during the 2:43:49.240 --> 2:43:52.360 rally on August twelfth. I'm sure we'll learn more about 2:43:52.400 --> 2:43:55.440 Dix as his case progresses, but I have found him 2:43:55.440 --> 2:43:57.800 in photos with the Traditionalist Worker Party at the Nazi 2:43:57.879 --> 2:44:01.879 rally in Pikeville earlier that same summer. In his torch case, 2:44:02.000 --> 2:44:04.520 he has been granted both a substitute judge and a 2:44:04.640 --> 2:44:08.600 special prosecutor based on a sort of nebulous, though very 2:44:08.720 --> 2:44:12.760 loudly argued conspiracy theory involving the wife of a judge 2:44:12.800 --> 2:44:15.200 who is not even presiding over his case, and a 2:44:15.320 --> 2:44:18.879 prosecutor who has a history of expressing anti racist political 2:44:19.000 --> 2:44:22.600 views in his personal life. Dix is out on bond. 2:44:23.080 --> 2:44:25.439 With the recent rule in granting him a special prosecutor, 2:44:26.200 --> 2:44:28.080 we may be seeing a trial date get set in 2:44:28.160 --> 2:44:34.400 the near future. And finally, Augustus Sole Invictus. Until Rousseau 2:44:34.520 --> 2:44:36.760 was arrested last week, the biggest name in this batch 2:44:36.840 --> 2:44:40.960 was Augustus Invictus. Even before his name was on the 2:44:41.040 --> 2:44:43.680 fliers as a headline speaker at Unite the Right, Invictus 2:44:43.760 --> 2:44:46.720 was no stranger to the headlines. In twenty sixteen, he 2:44:46.840 --> 2:44:50.040 ran for US Senate in Florida as a libertarian. His 2:44:50.160 --> 2:44:53.600 campaign was marred by such controversies as his own past 2:44:53.640 --> 2:44:58.000 statements on eugenics, A twenty thirteen ritual sacrifice of a goat, 2:44:58.520 --> 2:45:02.360 his legal representation of w supremacist militia leader Marcus Faiella, 2:45:03.040 --> 2:45:06.960 and numerous police reports from both his wife and his 2:45:07.320 --> 2:45:12.880 teenage girlfriend alleging domestic violence. In the years since, Invictis 2:45:12.959 --> 2:45:15.879 never did become a US senator despite a second attempt, 2:45:16.480 --> 2:45:20.000 and never did get convicted of domestic violence despite many, 2:45:20.879 --> 2:45:25.600 many more police reports. He's also no longer a pagan. 2:45:26.360 --> 2:45:29.160 Asked recently about the goat blood drinking ritual he performed 2:45:29.200 --> 2:45:33.000 in twenty thirteen, he quipped that he drinks human blood now, 2:45:33.480 --> 2:45:37.000 just a little transubstantiation joke about his recent conversion to 2:45:37.160 --> 2:45:41.440 traditional Catholicism. Invictus was arrested on the burning object charge 2:45:41.440 --> 2:45:43.880 in Florida in June twenty twenty three and held for 2:45:43.959 --> 2:45:46.960 a month before being extradited to Virginia and released on bond. 2:45:48.400 --> 2:45:51.760 Like Dix, he has been granted a substitute judge. He too, 2:45:51.879 --> 2:45:54.200 was seeking a special prosecutor, but no ruling was made 2:45:54.240 --> 2:45:57.760 at his last hearing. Currently, his case is docketed for 2:45:57.840 --> 2:46:01.480 trial next month, but I'm willing to bet that gets postponed. 2:46:02.600 --> 2:46:05.520 So that's more or less where we are now. Rousseau 2:46:05.640 --> 2:46:07.680 is the eleventh man to be charged in these cases. 2:46:08.280 --> 2:46:11.000 We've got four guilty please on the record, leaving him 2:46:11.040 --> 2:46:14.360 as one of seven open cases. We can expect to 2:46:14.360 --> 2:46:17.480 see Rousseau extradited from Texas to Virginia in the near future. 2:46:17.600 --> 2:46:19.760 I would say maybe a week or two, although some 2:46:19.879 --> 2:46:21.400 of them have been held for up to a month 2:46:21.760 --> 2:46:24.640 before a deputy can get down there and bring them back. 2:46:25.080 --> 2:46:27.000 Something I was really surprised to learn in all of 2:46:27.040 --> 2:46:31.480 this is in most extraditions for state cases like this, 2:46:31.600 --> 2:46:34.200 like these are not federal cases. These are local cases. 2:46:35.680 --> 2:46:39.680 When someone gets extradited long distance, a deputy just flies 2:46:39.800 --> 2:46:43.280 down there and then they fly back together on a 2:46:43.360 --> 2:46:47.360 commercial airline. It's not like a con air situation. They're 2:46:47.520 --> 2:46:50.600 just on an airplane together. So it really depends on 2:46:50.680 --> 2:46:52.400 when a deputy can sort of get down there and 2:46:52.440 --> 2:46:54.400 get them. So he'll be extradited sometime in the next 2:46:54.440 --> 2:46:56.800 few weeks, and then once he's booked into the album 2:46:56.840 --> 2:46:59.240 RL Charltsville Regional Jail, he'll get an appearance in court. 2:47:00.000 --> 2:47:02.680 It's anybody's guest right now who he'll hire to represent him. 2:47:03.200 --> 2:47:06.040 Former Proud Boy and current Patriot Front lawyer Jason Lee 2:47:06.080 --> 2:47:08.240 van Dyke was thoughtful enough to reply to one of 2:47:08.320 --> 2:47:10.959 my tweets about Rousseau's arrest to say that he will 2:47:11.120 --> 2:47:14.440 not be taking this case, as much as he would 2:47:14.440 --> 2:47:16.800 have loved to try this case, which he said that 2:47:16.800 --> 2:47:18.120 he would do a very good job doing and he 2:47:18.160 --> 2:47:22.200 could definitely do it, and unfortunately he just can't. He 2:47:22.320 --> 2:47:25.600 cited the difficulty in finding local council to assist. He's 2:47:25.680 --> 2:47:27.600 not admitted to the bar in Virginia, so who would 2:47:27.600 --> 2:47:29.600 need someone who is to sort of sponsor him in 2:47:30.200 --> 2:47:32.440 and be responsible for him in the case. So he said, 2:47:32.480 --> 2:47:34.720 you know, he can't find local council, and also it 2:47:34.720 --> 2:47:37.440 would just be two time consuming and too expensive to 2:47:37.520 --> 2:47:40.880 try a case in Virginia as he's located in Texas, 2:47:41.760 --> 2:47:44.600 so it won't be Jason Lee van Dyke, I've been 2:47:44.640 --> 2:47:47.680 writing about these cases in my newsletter, The Devil's Advocates. 2:47:48.000 --> 2:47:51.519 It's on Ghost, which is like substack, but it's not substack, 2:47:51.920 --> 2:47:54.840 it's Ghost, and I'm looking forward to writing some updates 2:47:55.280 --> 2:47:58.560 very soon. The finding out for this particular fucking around 2:47:58.640 --> 2:48:01.760 has been a long time coming, and I can't help 2:48:01.800 --> 2:48:05.600 but wonder if these cases had been brought sooner, Patriot 2:48:05.640 --> 2:48:09.640 Front might not even exist. You know, I suspect once 2:48:09.720 --> 2:48:11.840 Rousseau has gotten a lawyer, he will ask for a 2:48:11.879 --> 2:48:16.280 bond hearing. That's probably what's next. It's impossible to know 2:48:16.440 --> 2:48:19.680 how much information other law enforcement agencies are interested in 2:48:19.760 --> 2:48:23.359 sharing with the local prosecutor, but that kind of information 2:48:23.480 --> 2:48:25.560 sharing did play a critical role in some of the 2:48:25.680 --> 2:48:29.960 other cases. In bond hearings for Billy Williams and Tyler Dikes, 2:48:30.120 --> 2:48:34.000 information about the defendant's associations and activities collected by other 2:48:34.120 --> 2:48:38.280 local police agencies and federal authorities was what kept them 2:48:38.320 --> 2:48:43.240 in custody. In Dikes's case, several police and sheriff's departments 2:48:43.280 --> 2:48:46.800 in South Carolina and Georgia shared information that he was 2:48:46.840 --> 2:48:51.199 a suspect in some like swastika vandalism cases, some flying cases. 2:48:52.000 --> 2:48:54.880 It's not clear if the FEDS shared information ahead of 2:48:54.959 --> 2:48:58.080 time about the January sixth case, but it is clear 2:48:58.160 --> 2:49:01.040 that the prosecutor's office was talking to other law enforcement 2:49:01.080 --> 2:49:03.720 agencies who'd been keeping tabs on these guys. And I 2:49:03.800 --> 2:49:05.920 think you would be a fool to think the FEDS 2:49:05.959 --> 2:49:09.120 don't have some information about Rousseau that might raise a 2:49:09.200 --> 2:49:12.840 Judge's eyebrow. I guess we'll just have to wait and see. 2:49:27.240 --> 2:49:29.680 Hello, good morning, good afternoon, good evening, and good night. 2:49:30.400 --> 2:49:33.560 I'm Andrew Sage and I run the eature channel Andrewism. 2:49:33.879 --> 2:49:36.720 But this is not Andrewism. This is it could happen 2:49:36.760 --> 2:49:42.600 here today. I'm with Garrison yet again, and we are 2:49:42.680 --> 2:49:49.840 tackling really the genesis of this podcast, everyone's favorite subject, collapse. 2:49:51.200 --> 2:49:54.039 Oh wow, yeah, you know, just. 2:49:54.640 --> 2:50:00.400 A light topic for your morning or eating commute. I mean, 2:50:00.440 --> 2:50:03.320 if it's twenty twenty four and you don't know what 2:50:03.520 --> 2:50:06.240 collapse is, allow me to illuminate. 2:50:07.120 --> 2:50:09.400 Also, why are you listening to this podcast? It is 2:50:09.800 --> 2:50:11.440 ostensibly about collapse. 2:50:12.760 --> 2:50:17.440 Indeed, in essence, collapse is the significant loss of an 2:50:17.560 --> 2:50:20.800 established level of complexity towards a much simpler state. It 2:50:20.840 --> 2:50:24.240 can occur differently within many areas, orderly or chaotically, and 2:50:24.320 --> 2:50:27.520 be willing or unwilling. It does not necessarily imply human 2:50:27.560 --> 2:50:31.680 extinction or a singular global event. Although the longer the 2:50:31.800 --> 2:50:35.480 duration the mod resembles a decline instead of a collapse. 2:50:36.560 --> 2:50:39.360 So collapse is really a lot of things happen all 2:50:39.400 --> 2:50:41.440 of once. People typically decide, you know you're talking about 2:50:41.440 --> 2:50:46.000 the climate, talking about resources and the decline of resources, 2:50:46.120 --> 2:50:51.960 talking about last extinction, talking about societal unrest and break 2:50:52.040 --> 2:50:57.600 down and the inequality, and truly pick your poison, brother, 2:50:57.640 --> 2:51:00.640 We're talking about you know, the f and increasing global 2:51:00.720 --> 2:51:04.960 energy demands to graddingly slow transition to renewables, the destabilization 2:51:05.160 --> 2:51:08.760 of our food and water systems. There's no one cause, 2:51:08.920 --> 2:51:15.439 but several compounding pressures, as Pablo Serophene and Raphael Stevens 2:51:15.520 --> 2:51:19.680 aptly summarize. To maintain itself and avoid financial disorder and 2:51:19.800 --> 2:51:23.960 social unrest, our industrial capital civilization is forced to accelerate, 2:51:24.320 --> 2:51:27.199 to become more complex and to consume ever more energy 2:51:27.959 --> 2:51:31.840 its Doasleine expansion has been nurtured by the exceptional availability 2:51:32.640 --> 2:51:35.400 though this will not last long of fossil fuels that 2:51:35.480 --> 2:51:39.040 are very energy efficient, coupled with her growth economy and 2:51:39.200 --> 2:51:42.360 highly unstable levels of debt. But the growth of our 2:51:42.480 --> 2:51:46.959 industrial civilization today, constrained by geophysical economic limits, has reached 2:51:47.000 --> 2:51:50.680 a phase of decreasing returns. Technology, which has long sail 2:51:50.760 --> 2:51:53.080 to push these limits back, is less and less able 2:51:53.160 --> 2:51:57.360 to ensure this acceleration, and locks in this unsustainable trajectory 2:51:57.680 --> 2:52:01.480 by preventing the development of new alternatives sounds familiar. 2:52:02.400 --> 2:52:02.560 Well. 2:52:02.560 --> 2:52:05.840 At the same time, the sciences of complexity are discovering 2:52:05.959 --> 2:52:10.640 that beyond certain thresholds, complex systems, including economies and ecosystems, 2:52:11.000 --> 2:52:14.280 suddenly switched to new and unpredictable states of equilibrium and 2:52:14.360 --> 2:52:17.320 may even collapse. We are more and more aware that 2:52:17.440 --> 2:52:20.840 we have crossed certain boundaries that guarantee the stability of 2:52:20.879 --> 2:52:24.320 our living conditions as a society and as a species. 2:52:24.959 --> 2:52:27.920 The global climate system and many of the planet's ecosystems 2:52:27.959 --> 2:52:31.320 and major biochemical cycles have left the zone of stability 2:52:31.360 --> 2:52:34.199 that we were familiar with herald in a time of sudden, 2:52:34.520 --> 2:52:39.320 large scale disruptions which internally stabilized industrial societies, the rest 2:52:39.360 --> 2:52:42.000 of humankind and even other species. 2:52:43.240 --> 2:52:45.920 Yes, I agree. 2:52:47.959 --> 2:52:50.760 In terms of the hows of collapse, you know, it 2:52:50.879 --> 2:52:52.840 might be slow, or it might be quick, It might 2:52:52.879 --> 2:52:55.520 be happening now already, or maybe just really kicking off 2:52:55.760 --> 2:52:59.240 seriously in their future today, we'll really be talking about 2:52:59.360 --> 2:53:03.760 the sort of different ways of conceptualizing collapse, different frame 2:53:03.840 --> 2:53:09.240 devices we can use, and addressing the variety of responses 2:53:09.360 --> 2:53:13.120 that people have to collapse. In a future episode, I 2:53:13.240 --> 2:53:17.680 want to take a look at I suppose a more. 2:53:19.480 --> 2:53:23.280 This could be like the pessimistic episode in a sense, 2:53:23.959 --> 2:53:26.520 and the next one will be a bit more you know, 2:53:26.720 --> 2:53:29.320 how not to spiral into despair? 2:53:29.560 --> 2:53:33.480 So yeah, how to have a good understanding of the 2:53:33.560 --> 2:53:36.960 reality of our crumbling systems, but not just be a 2:53:37.040 --> 2:53:39.480 doomer who stays inside and scrolls all the time. 2:53:39.520 --> 2:53:40.480 It is just depressed. 2:53:41.000 --> 2:53:44.200 Well, but thankfully you have more options than just being 2:53:44.240 --> 2:53:45.720 a duma. And we're going to get into all of 2:53:45.760 --> 2:53:49.279 those responses very soon. There are quite a few interesting. 2:53:48.959 --> 2:53:50.000 Ones, alrighty. 2:53:50.640 --> 2:53:52.480 First of all, we need to talk about some different 2:53:52.480 --> 2:53:57.480 ways of conceptualizing collapse. For example, we have Dmitry Orlovs 2:53:57.560 --> 2:54:01.320 five stages, just like a rule coaster of chaos, which 2:54:01.360 --> 2:54:05.040 each stage more intense than the last. First, we have 2:54:05.440 --> 2:54:11.000 stage one financial collapse. Everyone losing faith in business as usual, 2:54:11.560 --> 2:54:15.800 financial institutions going belly up, savings vanish, financial freefall, say 2:54:15.840 --> 2:54:20.520 goodbye to your savings, account, loans, pensions. Basically what went 2:54:20.560 --> 2:54:25.560 down in Argentina back in two thousand and one. Sounds familiar, Yes, yes, yes, 2:54:26.760 --> 2:54:31.360 Next we have commercial collapse. Now it's not just about money, 2:54:31.520 --> 2:54:35.720 it's about losing faith in the market. Shall provide commodities 2:54:35.800 --> 2:54:38.720 end up being hoarded, shopping centers are closing for business, 2:54:39.160 --> 2:54:43.400 and we might even bring back barter, and then boom, 2:54:43.440 --> 2:54:48.720 we have the next stage, political collapse. Trust in the 2:54:48.800 --> 2:54:52.080 government will take care of you crumbles. Governments try to 2:54:52.160 --> 2:54:55.680 maintain oiler with curfews and martial law, but local corruption 2:54:55.879 --> 2:55:00.720 takes over services, the roads un maintained, the rubbish piling up. 2:55:01.400 --> 2:55:05.600 All of actually makes a really bold claim here, and 2:55:05.680 --> 2:55:09.960 that is that the US might be on this on 2:55:10.080 --> 2:55:13.800 the track of these like stages. Like I know, I know, 2:55:13.879 --> 2:55:16.120 that sounds like a really like a radical claim to 2:55:16.240 --> 2:55:17.480 make I. 2:55:17.720 --> 2:55:22.160 Feel like everyone listening to this has a decent understanding that, like, 2:55:22.920 --> 2:55:25.920 these things aren't just switches that are either on or off. 2:55:26.040 --> 2:55:29.720 This is like a sliding scale, and the US is 2:55:29.800 --> 2:55:34.600 a decent ways on this scale already. I mean, that's 2:55:34.680 --> 2:55:38.000 what That's what the first five episodes of the second 2:55:38.040 --> 2:55:40.840 season of this show was really all about, specifically in 2:55:40.920 --> 2:55:43.720 terms of the climate and how it's not like everything 2:55:43.800 --> 2:55:47.320 all falls apart at once. It's that these systems that 2:55:47.360 --> 2:55:50.400 we've grown to rely on will slowly crumble away until 2:55:50.400 --> 2:55:54.879 they've become basically nothing, or they just become like corporate puppets, 2:55:55.000 --> 2:55:56.800 or they've just become like like they're not they're not 2:55:56.879 --> 2:55:59.840 actually real anymore in any kind of impactful way. And 2:56:00.000 --> 2:56:01.879 I mean we saw a little bit of this during COVID, 2:56:01.959 --> 2:56:06.280 how many systems that we relied on just weren't really 2:56:06.360 --> 2:56:11.520 around anymore or were not actually reliable. And you see 2:56:11.560 --> 2:56:14.280 this whenever, like whenever there's a massive amount of wildfires 2:56:14.320 --> 2:56:17.120 that takes over a whole region and it displaces hundreds 2:56:17.120 --> 2:56:20.360 of thousands of people. Usually the response to that is 2:56:20.480 --> 2:56:23.520 not the government's going to come in and save everybody. 2:56:23.800 --> 2:56:26.080 It's a whole bunch of really poor anarchists set up 2:56:26.320 --> 2:56:29.200 a series of tents to give people food and to 2:56:29.400 --> 2:56:32.400 get people organized, to find places to sleep, and like 2:56:32.520 --> 2:56:36.760 that's the actual response to these crumbling institutions. It's not 2:56:36.959 --> 2:56:40.200 just like you know, fallout New Vegas. We're living in 2:56:40.240 --> 2:56:44.039 the apocalypse immediately. It's a lot more fuzzy. 2:56:46.320 --> 2:56:50.680 Yeah. Yeah, in in a sense, I kind of get 2:56:50.920 --> 2:56:53.880 people who wish it was a bit more straightforward and 2:56:54.080 --> 2:56:57.480 so sure, you know, because if it's like if it 2:56:57.600 --> 2:56:59.640 was like a major event, right like if it was 2:56:59.760 --> 2:57:03.280 an innovasion that just happened, I think it's a lot 2:57:03.400 --> 2:57:06.279 easier for people to conceptionize something like that and respond 2:57:06.400 --> 2:57:10.400 to it. And I just mobilize all your efforts and 2:57:11.200 --> 2:57:13.879 all your focus is on solved in this issue, because 2:57:13.920 --> 2:57:16.520 it's right in front of your face when you're talking 2:57:16.520 --> 2:57:21.320 about like geological time scales and multiple decades of you know, 2:57:21.640 --> 2:57:27.320 slowly breakdown, and you know, I have all these election cycles, 2:57:27.600 --> 2:57:31.640 and you have all these tipping points to scientists are 2:57:31.680 --> 2:57:35.880 telling you about, and then you know, someday eventually it's 2:57:36.000 --> 2:57:40.160 raining during the dry season and dry during the rainy season, 2:57:40.360 --> 2:57:44.240 and there's no snow in January. 2:57:44.080 --> 2:57:44.160 And. 2:57:45.959 --> 2:57:51.960 All that jazz onward the social collapse. This is where, 2:57:52.040 --> 2:57:55.000 according to all of faith in your people will take 2:57:55.040 --> 2:57:59.800 care of you, disintegrate, civil wars brew, thepopulation becomes a thing, 2:58:00.120 --> 2:58:05.760 clans take over like a post apocalyptic drama unfolding. And 2:58:06.800 --> 2:58:10.160 then the grand finale is cultural collapse, which is a 2:58:10.280 --> 2:58:13.360 loss of faith in the goodness of humanity. And as 2:58:13.400 --> 2:58:17.039 a result of that loss of faith, kindness, generosity, empathy 2:58:17.120 --> 2:58:21.080 all falls out the window. I completely disagree, I think 2:58:21.200 --> 2:58:25.640 with all ours solution here. I think that these types 2:58:25.680 --> 2:58:28.879 of crisis kind often bring out the best in people. 2:58:28.959 --> 2:58:30.800 Of course, we also do see the worst in people, 2:58:30.920 --> 2:58:32.840 but I don't think it'll ever reach a point where 2:58:32.920 --> 2:58:40.080 the bad of people's behavior so vastly outweighs the good 2:58:41.120 --> 2:58:43.440 to the point where people just completely lose faith in 2:58:43.480 --> 2:58:45.640 our capacity for mutual aid and that kind of thing. 2:58:47.280 --> 2:58:49.959 There is, of course, a bonus stage that all are throsen, 2:58:50.040 --> 2:58:56.920 which is ecological collapse, where reboot in society in an 2:58:57.040 --> 2:59:00.120 exhausted environment. It's like good luck with that. You know, 2:59:00.240 --> 2:59:03.440 it's very difficult to do. It becomes a sort of 2:59:03.840 --> 2:59:07.600 a well that we end up trapped in. So that's 2:59:07.840 --> 2:59:10.320 one way of understanding collapse. And there's also C. S. 2:59:10.400 --> 2:59:15.120 Halling's four phase model of ecological change, and according to him, 2:59:15.160 --> 2:59:18.760 all systems go through cycles of four phases. A phase 2:59:18.800 --> 2:59:21.960 of growth where the system accumulates matter and energy, a 2:59:22.000 --> 2:59:25.199 phase of conservation where the system becomes more and more interconnected, 2:59:25.600 --> 2:59:29.200 rigid and therefore vulnerable. A phase of collapse or loosening, 2:59:29.600 --> 2:59:32.280 and then a phase of rapid reorganization lead into another 2:59:32.360 --> 2:59:36.680 phase of growth in often very different conditions. This is 2:59:36.760 --> 2:59:42.480 more of a I suppose optimistic I mean I read 2:59:42.520 --> 2:59:46.440 it as kind of optimistic because it recognizes that, you know, 2:59:46.520 --> 2:59:48.959 some like things break down, and that's it. Like even 2:59:49.080 --> 2:59:53.120 in death, there's like a life, and there's like a rebooth, 2:59:53.240 --> 2:59:56.039 and then there's of course the conditions that rebooth will 2:59:56.080 --> 2:59:59.560 be different, but it's not like things completely come to 2:59:59.600 --> 3:00:06.800 an end. It suggest that the conditions that growth and 3:00:07.879 --> 3:00:12.720 healing might be kick started with would be very different 3:00:12.800 --> 3:00:15.760 from the ones that with the conditions that were there originally. 3:00:16.480 --> 3:00:20.400 Another author's views on the subject, a guy named John 3:00:20.480 --> 3:00:25.040 Michael Greer, once said that quote. The difference between my 3:00:25.280 --> 3:00:27.680 view and that of many others in the collapse field, 3:00:27.959 --> 3:00:29.640 it's a lot of them assume that the first wave 3:00:29.720 --> 3:00:32.520 of crisis will be followed by total collapse, and I 3:00:32.760 --> 3:00:35.960 argue that it'll be followed by muddying through and partial recovery, 3:00:36.520 --> 3:00:39.600 then by renewed crisis and so on. Thus, I don't 3:00:39.600 --> 3:00:41.640 think it's actually that useful to have a single metric 3:00:41.720 --> 3:00:44.800 for what counters collapse, because collapse is a process, not 3:00:44.920 --> 3:00:47.720 an event. The collapse of industrial civilization has been underway 3:00:47.720 --> 3:00:49.960 for quite some time now and will still be a 3:00:50.120 --> 3:00:52.920 going concern for longer than any of us will be alive. 3:00:54.320 --> 3:00:57.800 And then there's David Krowitz's sort of choose your own 3:00:57.800 --> 3:01:01.720 adventure style collapse where we have sort of three options 3:01:01.800 --> 3:01:06.119 that we could go down. There's one of linear decline, 3:01:06.200 --> 3:01:09.520 there's one of oscillating decline, and there's one of systemic collapse. 3:01:11.760 --> 3:01:14.840 For the step, we have linear decline, which is optimistic 3:01:15.080 --> 3:01:18.600 in a sense. It's assuming everything will respond proportionally to 3:01:18.680 --> 3:01:21.920 its causes. So, for instance, if oil consumption goes down, 3:01:22.280 --> 3:01:27.360 GDP follows suit. It's a very gradual and controlled decline, 3:01:27.360 --> 3:01:30.640 which gives us time to transition to renewable energy and 3:01:30.720 --> 3:01:34.240 to change our ways. It's kind of a dream scenario 3:01:34.600 --> 3:01:37.920 for some deep growth enthusiasts, So some of those who 3:01:38.520 --> 3:01:41.120 champion a transition to a greener future, we kind of 3:01:41.240 --> 3:01:44.280 want it to be a slow collapse, not a rapid collapse, 3:01:44.320 --> 3:01:47.760 because it gives us time to respond and adjust accordingly. 3:01:48.240 --> 3:01:52.080 Of course, the other side of that, the catch is 3:01:52.120 --> 3:01:56.560 that when it is that slow, it also sort of 3:01:57.320 --> 3:02:02.400 gives an excuse for inaction, excuse for delay and putting 3:02:02.480 --> 3:02:06.680 off and procrastinating on the changes that are necessary. A 3:02:06.879 --> 3:02:13.840 more realistic scenario, according to Korwss, oscillating decline, where you 3:02:13.959 --> 3:02:17.280 have economic activity bounce in between peaks of recovery and 3:02:17.400 --> 3:02:23.560 recession but with an overall downward trend. It's almost like 3:02:23.680 --> 3:02:26.959 an oil priced roller coaster where the higher prices lead 3:02:27.000 --> 3:02:30.000 to recession, then a dipping prices sparks bit of growth. 3:02:30.360 --> 3:02:33.120 Both each cycle the system loses a bit more of 3:02:33.200 --> 3:02:37.360 its mojo for lack of a better word. The debts 3:02:37.480 --> 3:02:41.680 the pile up, the investment possibilities dwindle, and it's kind 3:02:41.680 --> 3:02:44.920 of like the catabolic collapse idea that John Michael Career 3:02:45.000 --> 3:02:47.800 came up with. It's not too fast and so innocence, 3:02:47.840 --> 3:02:52.480 it still gives society some room to adapt. And the 3:02:52.760 --> 3:02:56.920 last model that Coreres has is the systemic collapse model, 3:02:57.480 --> 3:03:00.920 which sees our civilization has a super complex system with 3:03:01.120 --> 3:03:04.480 all these intertwined feedback loops, and so by crossing these 3:03:04.600 --> 3:03:08.200 invisible change over points and dealing with small disruptions can 3:03:08.320 --> 3:03:11.600 end up leading to unpredictable changes. It's like a roller 3:03:11.680 --> 3:03:16.279 coaster without a clear track, nonlinear, cumulative, and potentially brutal. 3:03:16.920 --> 3:03:20.440 You know, it's like no kind of safety approval was 3:03:20.920 --> 3:03:25.120 passed on this roller coaster whatsoever, a death trap and 3:03:25.400 --> 3:03:30.320 there's no telling where the cart will wear. Of course, 3:03:31.480 --> 3:03:35.040 really the how of collapse depends on who you ask 3:03:35.520 --> 3:03:37.440 but with all these models, they do seem to be 3:03:37.480 --> 3:03:41.160 a couple of clear points, best articulated again by Savine 3:03:41.160 --> 3:03:45.240 and Stevens. One, the physical growth of our societies will 3:03:45.240 --> 3:03:48.000 come to a halt in the near future. Two we 3:03:48.120 --> 3:03:51.640 have irreversibly damaged the entire system, at least on the 3:03:51.800 --> 3:03:55.840 geological scale of human beings. Three we are moving towards 3:03:55.879 --> 3:03:59.880 a very unstable, nonlinear future with major disruptions will be 3:03:59.879 --> 3:04:03.840 the norm. And four we're now potentially subject to global 3:04:04.040 --> 3:04:10.360 systemic collapses. Prospects look bleak to me. They look extra 3:04:10.480 --> 3:04:13.040 bleak when you consider that some people are still stuck 3:04:13.120 --> 3:04:17.040 on the is climate change real? Ha ha ha global 3:04:17.120 --> 3:04:21.000 warming and yet it's cold ha ha ha level of discourse. 3:04:22.240 --> 3:04:24.480 But for those who are made away of the issues, 3:04:24.600 --> 3:04:39.680 I've noticed people adopt a range of responses. I think 3:04:39.720 --> 3:04:43.520 one of the first responses that I see to collapse 3:04:44.440 --> 3:04:45.800 is slumber. 3:04:46.480 --> 3:04:46.600 Right. 3:04:47.360 --> 3:04:50.240 They catch like a whiff of what's going on and 3:04:50.400 --> 3:04:53.400 decide to just turn over and go back to sleep, 3:04:54.160 --> 3:04:59.760 To purposefully embrace ignorance, disregard new information, and shun any 3:04:59.800 --> 3:05:02.960 under standing of what's going on. Perhaps you know their 3:05:03.080 --> 3:05:08.000 God and their fragile sanity, which is understandable, but people 3:05:08.120 --> 3:05:13.440 sleep in or we need to face these issues is 3:05:14.360 --> 3:05:17.359 a disaster waiting to happen. These issues are not going anywhere, 3:05:17.440 --> 3:05:20.040 and we really need people to have the courage and 3:05:20.120 --> 3:05:23.000 the boldness to face them instead of turning over and 3:05:23.160 --> 3:05:26.600 going back to sleep. Similarly to that response, we have 3:05:26.720 --> 3:05:31.359 the denial response, where people face with this reality, reject 3:05:31.440 --> 3:05:35.120 it consciously and construct their own or they stage for 3:05:35.200 --> 3:05:38.160 information that comforts them rather than exposes them to the truth. 3:05:38.720 --> 3:05:41.520 They construct a media bubble that shields them or a 3:05:41.600 --> 3:05:44.920 social circle that could protect them and reaffirm their core beliefs. 3:05:45.720 --> 3:05:48.520 Everyone is capable of denying reality, but it's become quite 3:05:48.600 --> 3:05:51.119 prevalent in the age of technology, where we can easily 3:05:51.200 --> 3:05:55.440 shut out any truths that make us uncomfortable. And then 3:05:55.480 --> 3:05:58.920 this apathy, you know, like slumber and denial. People respond 3:05:59.000 --> 3:06:02.920 with apathy to protect themselves in some way. After all, 3:06:02.959 --> 3:06:05.400 if nothing really matters, there's no need to try, no 3:06:05.520 --> 3:06:09.080 need to think, no need to bother Jesus, just disconnect 3:06:10.400 --> 3:06:12.160 as humans. I think we have a really tough time 3:06:12.240 --> 3:06:16.000 responding to non immediate threats. It's been said, as I 3:06:16.040 --> 3:06:18.879 said earlier, that no climate change isn't happening too quick, 3:06:19.400 --> 3:06:24.560 it's happening too slowly. It's not obvious enough. And because 3:06:24.560 --> 3:06:26.640 it's not obviously enough, it's very easy for this next 3:06:26.720 --> 3:06:30.800 response to be made manifest and it's preoccupation. Of course, 3:06:30.840 --> 3:06:33.160 this is more of a fault of the system. But 3:06:33.320 --> 3:06:36.000 people these days are all busy, you know, everyone can 3:06:36.240 --> 3:06:39.480 afford to invest and explore and understand the world's problems, 3:06:39.920 --> 3:06:42.480 even if the threat is so existential that their office 3:06:42.520 --> 3:06:46.640 busy work or retail servitude would ultimately amount to nothing. 3:06:47.520 --> 3:06:49.160 But I'm not talking about those people when I talk 3:06:49.160 --> 3:06:51.920 about preoccupation. I'm talking about the people who respond to 3:06:51.959 --> 3:06:55.080 the issues of the world by purposefully distracting themselves with 3:06:55.120 --> 3:06:58.560 busy work, constructing a convenient excuse to not challenge the 3:06:58.600 --> 3:07:02.720 structures that they are under, like running away for the 3:07:02.760 --> 3:07:07.720 predicaments of collapse. But the prodiccommends of collapse hatches up 3:07:07.760 --> 3:07:11.600 to all of us sooner or later. And on the 3:07:11.640 --> 3:07:13.680 flip side of the people who busy themselves with busy 3:07:13.760 --> 3:07:16.920 work are the people who dive into mind less consumerism, 3:07:17.640 --> 3:07:21.360 which is coupled with apathy to some extent. If nothing 3:07:21.440 --> 3:07:26.160 matters and everything's falling apart, you might as well just indulge, consume, 3:07:26.800 --> 3:07:30.040 distract yourself with games, music, party and drugs and drinking. 3:07:30.120 --> 3:07:34.120 It's like slumber, except you're aware of the reality and 3:07:34.320 --> 3:07:38.240 just plug in your ears to just dance. But at 3:07:38.320 --> 3:07:42.720 least for those that plug their ears, they don't face 3:07:44.480 --> 3:07:50.480 what I've called overwhelment. Some people respond by trying to 3:07:50.600 --> 3:07:53.760 wrap their minds around the depth and complexity of collapse 3:07:54.320 --> 3:07:57.400 to the point of obsession and just kind of end 3:07:57.480 --> 3:08:01.720 up losing their mind together there. I don't think there 3:08:01.840 --> 3:08:05.120 is any human mind that can completely consume and comprehend 3:08:05.280 --> 3:08:07.760 every minued problem we face. I think that's why we 3:08:07.840 --> 3:08:11.760 are social species, because we can we can kind of 3:08:11.879 --> 3:08:17.480 distribute that understanding of all the various problems so that 3:08:17.640 --> 3:08:22.280 no one person has to handle all of it. We 3:08:22.440 --> 3:08:25.840 really are going to need to come together to understand collapse, 3:08:26.680 --> 3:08:30.879 because as individuals, to deal with somethings to a complex, abstract, 3:08:31.640 --> 3:08:38.120 far flung and frightening, it's it's frankly, subjecting yourself to 3:08:38.200 --> 3:08:42.240 that is almost a form of self torture or self flagellation. 3:08:43.280 --> 3:08:46.879 And what we need is the oppositeity, people building each 3:08:46.920 --> 3:08:50.920 other up and healing our communities and coming together so 3:08:51.000 --> 3:08:57.440 we could solve this crisis. Of course, there is such 3:08:57.480 --> 3:09:02.480 a thing as being too caught up in that sort 3:09:02.560 --> 3:09:07.920 of hope, and a trap that a lot of people 3:09:08.120 --> 3:09:12.320 fall naturally into, because in a sense we are biologically 3:09:12.520 --> 3:09:17.119 predisposed towards optimism. We tend to hold on to hope 3:09:17.160 --> 3:09:21.040 in some future outcome they'll just work out, you know. 3:09:21.360 --> 3:09:23.640 And it's sort of a blind hope because it can't 3:09:23.680 --> 3:09:27.880 adjust to the ever shifting reality. It strips us of 3:09:27.920 --> 3:09:31.120 our ability to see clearly and to take realistic and 3:09:31.280 --> 3:09:35.680 necessary action. We give up our agency and leave things 3:09:35.760 --> 3:09:38.320 in the hands of the leaders and the experts. We 3:09:38.440 --> 3:09:41.960 stay passive. We waste time, precious time we spend on 3:09:42.160 --> 3:09:46.240 real harm reduction, just going with the flow. We prevent 3:09:46.320 --> 3:09:49.320 the necessary conversations with the blind hope when we fixate 3:09:49.480 --> 3:09:51.720 so much on whether we can fix it or how 3:09:51.800 --> 3:09:54.400 we can fix it, without considering what we need to do. 3:09:54.520 --> 3:09:58.600 If we can't fix it, you know what happens? Then 3:10:00.520 --> 3:10:04.920 blind hope manifests in a few different forms. But I 3:10:05.000 --> 3:10:08.960 think whatever formant comes into it ultimately and ultimately and 3:10:09.040 --> 3:10:13.480 inevitably leads to disappointment, waiting forever for future that won't come, 3:10:13.600 --> 3:10:18.720 that exists solely in one's mind, irrespective of reality. It's 3:10:19.240 --> 3:10:23.760 quite frankly a form of denial. It takes a bit 3:10:23.800 --> 3:10:27.040 of a journey to move towards a greater level of 3:10:28.280 --> 3:10:31.960 emotional maturity to handle the tough conversations and let go 3:10:32.320 --> 3:10:36.120 of the false hopes, like the idea that will somehow 3:10:36.240 --> 3:10:38.680 reverse all the damage our planet has been dealt with 3:10:38.800 --> 3:10:42.680 scot free. But once we have done that, and once 3:10:42.720 --> 3:10:47.080 we have strengthened or resolve and strengthen our ability to 3:10:47.240 --> 3:10:50.680 process and to engage with the reality of what's happening, 3:10:51.840 --> 3:10:56.320 we can take action with knowledge that no, our leader 3:10:56.360 --> 3:10:58.640 is not going to do anything substantially enough, and no, 3:10:58.879 --> 3:11:02.760 this moves far beyond reform. It really is a hard 3:11:02.920 --> 3:11:06.960 pill to swallow, but if you can take it, you'll 3:11:07.000 --> 3:11:13.279 be better off to resist. We really don't need blind 3:11:13.360 --> 3:11:17.279 hope and resistance. I think hope is important. I'm distinguishing 3:11:17.320 --> 3:11:23.840 it from hope. Blind hope, however, is a distraction and 3:11:24.040 --> 3:11:26.680 sort of connected to the blind hope conversation. Are the 3:11:27.400 --> 3:11:32.560 people who respond to this crisis with the obsession with 3:11:32.680 --> 3:11:37.000 individual change, people who believe with a few tweaks here 3:11:37.080 --> 3:11:40.480 and there that we can continue or perpetual growth, we 3:11:40.640 --> 3:11:43.920 just have to switch to veganism or recycle or cockpool 3:11:43.959 --> 3:11:48.360 every once in a while, and that that individual level 3:11:48.480 --> 3:11:52.760 action on a large enough scale would resolve the crisis. 3:11:54.240 --> 3:11:57.240 They place a lot of stock and blame in individuals entirely, 3:11:58.120 --> 3:12:01.800 and they don't engage with the wires structures of society. 3:12:04.320 --> 3:12:06.440 A lot of liberals, of course, fall into this camp. 3:12:08.480 --> 3:12:12.840 And speaking of liberals, we see a very pernicious trend 3:12:14.320 --> 3:12:19.040 of progress worship as another response to collapse. The author 3:12:19.240 --> 3:12:22.040 Dennis Meadows actually points out a curious trend over the 3:12:22.080 --> 3:12:26.360 past four decades. There's a constant shift in justifying why 3:12:26.440 --> 3:12:30.279 we shouldn't change our behavior. Back in the seventies, critics 3:12:30.360 --> 3:12:33.600 were saying, no limits. You know, anyone who thinks they're limits, 3:12:33.640 --> 3:12:36.720 they just don't get it. In the eighties they're saying, oh, 3:12:36.800 --> 3:12:39.800 actually there are limits, but they are very far away. 3:12:39.840 --> 3:12:42.600 We have nothing to worry about, nothing to lose sleep over. 3:12:43.600 --> 3:12:46.400 And then in today nineties, the limits are no longer 3:12:46.520 --> 3:12:50.320 at are no longer is distant. And then the supporters 3:12:50.360 --> 3:12:53.280 of growth they chiming with, oh, well, you know the 3:12:53.440 --> 3:12:55.880 limits are close, but no worries. You know, the markets 3:12:55.920 --> 3:12:59.280 and technology will swoop in and fix everything. And then 3:12:59.320 --> 3:13:02.000 you reach into two thousands and it becomes clear that 3:13:02.120 --> 3:13:05.520 the tech and the markets might not cut it, and 3:13:05.560 --> 3:13:08.840 then a narrative spins again. Regardless of whether not the 3:13:08.920 --> 3:13:10.760 markets or tech and cut it, we still need to 3:13:10.800 --> 3:13:12.960 push for growth because that's the goal and ticket to 3:13:13.040 --> 3:13:16.200 the resources we need to tackle lot of problems. It's 3:13:16.800 --> 3:13:23.360 basically a game of justification hopscotch. It's almost a cult 3:13:23.720 --> 3:13:26.280 of progress that any and all growth is good. That 3:13:26.360 --> 3:13:30.320 don't matter the consequences of on our finite earth, we 3:13:30.440 --> 3:13:34.480 can just expand and expand eternally. A lot of the 3:13:34.560 --> 3:13:37.400 responses I get to my discussions of the growth or 3:13:37.440 --> 3:13:40.520 post growth or whatever, it's like, yeah, but you can't 3:13:40.600 --> 3:13:44.480 do that because then the GP wouldn't grow and wouldn't 3:13:44.800 --> 3:13:48.000 elevate people's unders of living. And you know, it's not 3:13:48.240 --> 3:13:49.879 fair that global. 3:13:50.400 --> 3:13:52.760 Wait Andrew, are you a Malthusian? 3:13:57.680 --> 3:13:59.800 Nothing of the sort. Nothing of the sort. But I 3:13:59.840 --> 3:14:03.160 think that we should not be fallen into this shrap 3:14:03.200 --> 3:14:06.240 of being like, oh, well, you know, it's not fair 3:14:06.320 --> 3:14:08.480 that these rich countries they get to reach that level 3:14:08.480 --> 3:14:10.480 of development and then we have to, like and then 3:14:10.560 --> 3:14:12.760 what we're going to step in and stop other countries 3:14:12.760 --> 3:14:15.320 from doing so When it's not that I mean, I'm 3:14:15.360 --> 3:14:18.240 speaking from a not rich country. What I'm saying is 3:14:18.320 --> 3:14:20.480 that the what I say to this equal is that 3:14:20.760 --> 3:14:24.560 the path of development these rich countries took it's not sustainable. 3:14:24.920 --> 3:14:28.279 It is literally dooming us all. Yes, the entire population 3:14:28.600 --> 3:14:33.880 cannot strive for the level of consumption that Americans strive for. 3:14:34.480 --> 3:14:37.720 Do I think the development days take place, absolutely, but 3:14:37.920 --> 3:14:40.840 not on the trajectory, not following in the footsteps of 3:14:41.440 --> 3:14:47.960 these rich countries, this global North, and it's like I 3:14:48.080 --> 3:14:54.120 see of decimating the world, you know, places like India, 3:14:54.240 --> 3:14:58.480 place like the Caribbean, places in Africa. You know, we 3:14:58.640 --> 3:15:03.920 do need to, you know, improve housing, and improve access 3:15:03.959 --> 3:15:08.560 to water, and improve access to education, all these different things. 3:15:10.440 --> 3:15:21.240 But chasing after this sort of careless economic growth narrative 3:15:21.440 --> 3:15:26.840 and path is just going to accelerate all of our destruction. 3:15:28.280 --> 3:15:31.280 I agree with the need for reparations from global North 3:15:31.360 --> 3:15:34.360 to global South that will allow us to reach the 3:15:34.520 --> 3:15:43.160 level of we could reach the quality of life that 3:15:43.280 --> 3:15:46.720 I think every human should have access to. But I 3:15:46.800 --> 3:15:51.480 don't think that that is the same thing as saying that, oh, well, 3:15:52.000 --> 3:15:57.080 you know, every country should have their own equivalent of 3:15:57.600 --> 3:16:02.720 Britain and the US's Industrial Revolution, And who cares that 3:16:04.360 --> 3:16:08.039 that ship has sealed, that window of opportunity has passed. 3:16:08.959 --> 3:16:12.520 Yeah, And I think going back to like your series 3:16:12.720 --> 3:16:15.160 of episodes on cults, when you're talking about the cult 3:16:15.240 --> 3:16:17.560 of progress, I think that is that gets thrown on 3:16:17.640 --> 3:16:20.000 as like a very trendy term, but I think it 3:16:20.160 --> 3:16:23.960 has a lot of truth in it for this specific reason. 3:16:24.440 --> 3:16:28.600 In order to maintain the type of progress that is 3:16:28.760 --> 3:16:33.520 necessary to sustain this at this current point, what seems 3:16:33.520 --> 3:16:36.920 to be a very unsustainable method of interacting with the planet. 3:16:38.000 --> 3:16:41.400 You have to rely on growth as this thing that 3:16:42.120 --> 3:16:47.160 you can't actually like predict its It's you can't actually 3:16:47.240 --> 3:16:48.880 predict a real endpoint for it. 3:16:49.040 --> 3:16:52.560 You have to only assume and only hope that it 3:16:52.680 --> 3:16:53.280 will get there. 3:16:53.480 --> 3:16:57.599 It's this that's why there's this real sense of accelerationism 3:16:58.120 --> 3:17:01.080 throughout these whole industries, because people know that if we 3:17:01.160 --> 3:17:04.520 continue just doing this way, the planet will not be functional, 3:17:04.680 --> 3:17:08.680 at least for us in like one hundred years, probably 3:17:08.840 --> 3:17:13.080 you know in much less time as well. But the 3:17:13.160 --> 3:17:15.920 reason why they're all continuing is that they have the 3:17:16.200 --> 3:17:18.200 people have it have this idea in their heads that 3:17:18.240 --> 3:17:20.520 if we just if we just keep accelerating, if we 3:17:20.680 --> 3:17:22.840 keep going, we have to go faster and faster and faster, 3:17:23.160 --> 3:17:26.879 because we'll find something along the way that will magically 3:17:26.920 --> 3:17:30.040 fix the problem. Well, if the only way to fix 3:17:30.080 --> 3:17:33.040 the problem is to continue accelerating, and we'll find this 3:17:33.320 --> 3:17:36.200 thing that doesn't currently exist, but we'll find like this 3:17:36.440 --> 3:17:41.800 like supernatural device or discovery that allows us to kind 3:17:41.800 --> 3:17:44.560 of fix the little problem we've made for ourselves. And 3:17:44.680 --> 3:17:47.800 it is a very like religious belief that if if 3:17:47.879 --> 3:17:51.440 we just keep going, we'll like get some like deep this, 3:17:51.720 --> 3:17:53.680 some like some like deep special insight. 3:17:54.440 --> 3:17:57.920 We've reached the point where people are lesterally looking to 3:17:58.480 --> 3:18:01.640 have uns like almost in a super natural sense, Yeah, 3:18:01.680 --> 3:18:03.520 to find a situation like oh, well, we'll just be 3:18:03.520 --> 3:18:07.080 able to keep on going because asteroid mining, We'll just 3:18:07.160 --> 3:18:09.959 go one settlement other planets and I'll continue our expansion 3:18:10.040 --> 3:18:11.520 endlessly and we could just keep on going. 3:18:11.600 --> 3:18:15.520 And you also see this with people like developing AI. 3:18:15.640 --> 3:18:18.280 They're like, if we if we get into AI smart enough, 3:18:18.800 --> 3:18:20.800 it'll be able to tell us how to fix our problem. 3:18:21.200 --> 3:18:23.920 And it is a deeply spiritual drive. It is a 3:18:24.040 --> 3:18:26.680 very cultish drive, like we have to keep going, even 3:18:26.760 --> 3:18:30.360 though we are currently dooming ourselves by continuing. We have 3:18:30.480 --> 3:18:32.160 to continue because that's the only way that we'll get 3:18:32.160 --> 3:18:34.600 this out of this problem. It's like we can, we can, 3:18:34.840 --> 3:18:38.160 we can only dig deeper, like we've gone so far 3:18:38.280 --> 3:18:38.600 into the. 3:18:38.640 --> 3:18:39.360 Center of the earth. 3:18:40.280 --> 3:18:44.120 It's faster, Yeah, it's faster to dig out the other 3:18:44.160 --> 3:18:45.880 way than actually try to turn around and fill the 3:18:45.920 --> 3:18:48.680 hole again. It is a very cultish spiritual drive to 3:18:48.760 --> 3:18:53.119 like continue this, to continue and like explicitly like accelerate 3:18:53.280 --> 3:18:57.440 development because we've realized we've done something that's uh from 3:18:57.480 --> 3:19:01.120 our current point of view, almost irreparable. But there's this, 3:19:01.440 --> 3:19:03.680 there is this belief that if we owe that the 3:19:03.840 --> 3:19:06.160 only way to fix it is is if we keep going, 3:19:06.440 --> 3:19:10.440 then will somehow stumble across the magical the magical thing 3:19:10.520 --> 3:19:11.560 that will fix our problem. 3:19:22.959 --> 3:19:28.840 I want to talk specifically about the sort of I mean, 3:19:28.879 --> 3:19:30.240 I know there are other people in the world who 3:19:30.240 --> 3:19:32.280 wards how there's response, in the global South, who will 3:19:32.320 --> 3:19:33.840 olds how there's response. But I see a lot of 3:19:34.080 --> 3:19:40.039 Americans responding to my like decreath advocacy or whatever saying, well, 3:19:40.080 --> 3:19:43.240 what about the global cellth you know, I mean, nevermind, 3:19:43.320 --> 3:19:46.520 I live in the global South, what about the global cell? 3:19:47.680 --> 3:19:54.400 And what really gets me about it is just how 3:19:54.440 --> 3:19:57.040 it's almost like a way of comfort in themselves. 3:19:57.520 --> 3:20:01.959 Sure it's it's it's using the struggles of marginalize people 3:20:02.360 --> 3:20:06.240 to not interrogate your own role in the continuing destruction 3:20:06.440 --> 3:20:11.400 and like systemic oppression that produces this great economic and 3:20:11.720 --> 3:20:15.400 u and like a difference in quality of life. 3:20:15.840 --> 3:20:17.680 Because it's like you have to then you'll have to 3:20:17.720 --> 3:20:21.279 confront the fact that maybe your lifestyle and the privilege, 3:20:21.320 --> 3:20:25.240 some of the lifestyle and privileges you enjoyed really should 3:20:25.280 --> 3:20:29.160 not be enjoyed by anyone ever, Like maybe that level 3:20:29.240 --> 3:20:31.320 of the thing was never sustainable in the first place, 3:20:31.360 --> 3:20:34.560 and we could have done with less. And I know 3:20:34.680 --> 3:20:39.760 it's really I really hate having this kind of conversation 3:20:39.879 --> 3:20:42.360 on the internet because I think it's very difficult to 3:20:42.400 --> 3:20:45.160 get into the left of nuances necessary because then I 3:20:45.240 --> 3:20:46.879 know people will say, oh, well, I'm from a week 3:20:46.920 --> 3:20:50.119 in class background from this and that I've also faced 3:20:50.160 --> 3:20:53.160 livel deprivation. I get all that, but then there are 3:20:53.200 --> 3:20:58.039 other things where I'm like, you know, can we live 3:20:58.080 --> 3:21:01.840 in a world where everyone has access to Amazon one 3:21:01.920 --> 3:21:06.160 day ship in two day shipping, you know. Can we 3:21:06.280 --> 3:21:09.879 live in a world where everyone owns a car, even 3:21:09.920 --> 3:21:14.480 if it's an electric car. I think there are certain 3:21:15.720 --> 3:21:21.600 standards of I guess lifestyle or milestones of lifestyle that 3:21:21.920 --> 3:21:23.960 we've come to accept that I think in retrospect, we 3:21:24.000 --> 3:21:27.240 will look back and say, Wow, that was an aberration 3:21:28.400 --> 3:21:32.560 of human history that we were even maintaining that sort 3:21:32.600 --> 3:21:38.320 of infrastructure, even maintaining that level of consumption. You know, 3:21:38.360 --> 3:21:40.280 I'm sure a couple of generations online people will look 3:21:40.280 --> 3:21:42.480 back and be like, wow, do you tell me nearly 3:21:42.640 --> 3:21:46.000 every household had a car and that everybody was just 3:21:46.080 --> 3:21:48.120 on the roads driving all the time, and we built 3:21:48.160 --> 3:21:55.760 our cities or infrastructure around vehicles when we knew very 3:21:55.840 --> 3:21:58.280 early on, when the oil companies knew very early on 3:21:58.440 --> 3:22:02.480 that eventually we would run out, we just didn't care. 3:22:06.160 --> 3:22:07.880 I'm kind of all over the place with this, but 3:22:08.040 --> 3:22:09.800 you're gonna say something, well. 3:22:09.680 --> 3:22:12.880 I was also gonna mention like in these in these 3:22:12.920 --> 3:22:15.800 sorts of discussions, it also can be often overlooked that 3:22:16.959 --> 3:22:19.720 just because you live in the United States or in 3:22:19.800 --> 3:22:21.760 any other kind of big place, that doesn't mean like 3:22:22.640 --> 3:22:26.720 it's that's not The United States isn't one place. There 3:22:26.800 --> 3:22:29.279 is a difference between living and like a five thousand 3:22:29.320 --> 3:22:34.320 dollars apartment in a downtown like city center, versus living 3:22:34.600 --> 3:22:37.920 on the outskirts of town in like a house that's 3:22:37.959 --> 3:22:41.560 falling apart right or living on the street, or or 3:22:41.640 --> 3:22:45.480 living in the middle of Utah versus living on the 3:22:45.600 --> 3:22:49.480 coast like there's or living in like a montane like there's. 3:22:49.680 --> 3:22:51.880 There is such a large difference even for people in 3:22:51.959 --> 3:22:55.440 the States, for like many many like not everyone is 3:22:55.520 --> 3:23:01.120 able to live in this like very are arguably very 3:23:01.360 --> 3:23:06.800 very unsustainable, very like hyper hyper modernity. Way there is 3:23:06.920 --> 3:23:10.560 there is, there's millions of people that of course, like no, 3:23:11.440 --> 3:23:13.280 I'm not saying that against your point. I'm saying, like 3:23:13.320 --> 3:23:15.440 this is this is also part of the problem. Like 3:23:15.520 --> 3:23:18.440 we have we have tricked ourselves into thinking that if 3:23:18.480 --> 3:23:20.360 you if you live in the United States, that must 3:23:20.480 --> 3:23:25.280 mean you are like you are one of the elite few. 3:23:25.680 --> 3:23:28.800 But there's millions of people who are living in like 3:23:28.959 --> 3:23:32.800 the like some of the most some of the harshest 3:23:33.400 --> 3:23:36.520 conditions in the world, even in the richest country in 3:23:36.600 --> 3:23:38.760 the world, like it is is anti. 3:23:38.720 --> 3:23:42.360 Growth is not coming to take from one's meager lifestyle 3:23:42.720 --> 3:23:45.720 if one lives in those circumstances, you know, deep growth 3:23:45.840 --> 3:23:48.800 is really coming after those on the other end of 3:23:48.879 --> 3:23:50.279 that spectrum of life style. 3:23:52.360 --> 3:23:54.440 No, if if any, it would be, and it would 3:23:54.480 --> 3:23:59.039 be a greater equalizer between people living in countries. 3:24:00.280 --> 3:24:01.360 Of your standard of living. 3:24:01.680 --> 3:24:04.280 Yes, as as as well as looking at you know, 3:24:04.440 --> 3:24:07.240 quote unquote like the global South or quote unquote like 3:24:07.640 --> 3:24:11.440 third world countries, like there is there's this idea of 3:24:11.560 --> 3:24:14.080 like I think we've had someone on this show to 3:24:14.080 --> 3:24:17.080 talk about this before, Joey, like the fourth World, like 3:24:17.160 --> 3:24:19.160 you're you were living in third world conditions but. 3:24:19.200 --> 3:24:20.320 In a first world country. 3:24:21.040 --> 3:24:23.720 And how all of these, all of these types of 3:24:25.320 --> 3:24:28.440 these all of these types of systemic inequality and differences 3:24:28.520 --> 3:24:32.080 and uh like a cost of living, living conditions, they 3:24:32.160 --> 3:24:35.160 all they all come by in together in really Gaussian 3:24:35.680 --> 3:24:39.880 fuzzy ways, even if you live in the United States, Canada, England, 3:24:40.000 --> 3:24:45.040 like Germany, wherever, and and and it produces this extremely 3:24:45.440 --> 3:24:46.480 extremely bizarre. 3:24:46.240 --> 3:24:48.320 Mishmash of of. 3:24:50.480 --> 3:24:51.279 Circumstances. 3:24:51.400 --> 3:24:54.119 Of circumstances. Yeah, you can you can walk by someone 3:24:54.160 --> 3:24:58.160 who's driving like a five hundred thousand dollars car. Meanwhile 3:24:58.840 --> 3:25:01.360 you are literally being forced to live on the street 3:25:01.480 --> 3:25:03.800 like that is that is so that is such a 3:25:03.959 --> 3:25:06.200 bizarre dichotomy. 3:25:06.120 --> 3:25:09.000 The few times I've been to the US seeing that dichotomy, 3:25:09.560 --> 3:25:12.760 like in real something else. I mean, of course there's 3:25:12.760 --> 3:25:15.880 an incoming equality, and there's vastest parties in wealth and 3:25:15.959 --> 3:25:18.920 turned out as well. You know, there are people who 3:25:19.640 --> 3:25:21.400 you know live on the streets and their people who 3:25:22.360 --> 3:25:27.160 you know go to yacht parties every weekend. What I 3:25:27.280 --> 3:25:31.080 want people to recognize is the way that these elites 3:25:31.360 --> 3:25:33.920 get you to advocate against your own interests is through 3:25:33.959 --> 3:25:37.879 that sort of and connect you to their culture progress 3:25:38.920 --> 3:25:41.360 and get you invested in their culture progress. Hook you 3:25:41.480 --> 3:25:46.360 in is through that sort of temporarily embarrassed to millionaire mantra. 3:25:47.200 --> 3:25:49.800 They hook you in by saying, yeah, they're coming for 3:25:50.080 --> 3:25:52.880 our stuff. Eventually you get to my level too, and 3:25:53.760 --> 3:25:55.680 then you wouldn't want people to take your stuff away either, 3:25:56.200 --> 3:26:00.400 you know, like my tech development is gonna right, We're 3:26:00.400 --> 3:26:04.640 going to bring all of us up, you know, and 3:26:04.720 --> 3:26:07.840 you shouldn't let these people stop you. Rather than no, well, 3:26:08.360 --> 3:26:11.080 obviously these rush guys are going to get brought down 3:26:11.120 --> 3:26:14.199 a peg, but by bringing them down a peg, everybody 3:26:14.240 --> 3:26:19.560 will have a better quality of life. But instead of 3:26:19.959 --> 3:26:27.560 recognizing that, they deceive people with this techno opim, they 3:26:27.640 --> 3:26:33.160 bring people into this trap of capitalist realism that either 3:26:34.200 --> 3:26:37.120 you live in the deprivation of the worst of the 3:26:37.160 --> 3:26:41.120 worst of people's livelihoods and the capitalism, or you live 3:26:41.200 --> 3:26:42.880 in the excess of the best of the best of 3:26:42.920 --> 3:26:46.240 people's lives and the capitalism. And there's nothing beyond those 3:26:46.280 --> 3:26:49.800 two options. And so obviously the de growth people want 3:26:49.879 --> 3:26:53.600 you to be living in the former option, and you 3:26:53.600 --> 3:26:57.560 should oppose them because of that. Another response I see 3:26:57.600 --> 3:26:58.800 is that there are a lot of people who are 3:26:58.920 --> 3:27:07.000 just completely like have complete faith in our leaders, who 3:27:07.080 --> 3:27:09.120 believe that, you know, once we get just the right 3:27:09.240 --> 3:27:13.880 people in office, things will work out. The truth is, 3:27:13.920 --> 3:27:16.440 of course, the system corrupts even the best of intentions. 3:27:16.879 --> 3:27:19.480 Politicians are a class and to themselves, and their actions 3:27:19.520 --> 3:27:23.080 reflect ultimately their own interests and the interests of their backers. 3:27:23.680 --> 3:27:26.640 Nation states, governments, rulers. Is their job, it's in their 3:27:26.720 --> 3:27:30.800 job description to maintain structures that ultimately harm humanity, and 3:27:30.840 --> 3:27:32.960 there's only so much they can do to affect the 3:27:33.000 --> 3:27:38.080 status cho placing our salvation in their hands. It's an 3:27:38.080 --> 3:27:42.320 exercise in futility, invest in your future and the confines 3:27:42.400 --> 3:27:45.800 the electoralism is a waste of time, but it also 3:27:45.840 --> 3:27:49.360 demonstrates whoy effectively mass media and schooling has broken down 3:27:49.440 --> 3:27:53.359 and limited our imagination. I like to call that status realism, 3:27:53.440 --> 3:27:56.400 the idea that there's no alternative to this hierarchy of 3:27:56.480 --> 3:27:59.920 rulers and rule, that people just need to submit to 3:28:00.040 --> 3:28:02.960 the wills and whims of others rather than organizing for 3:28:03.080 --> 3:28:07.240 themselves in their communities. There's, of course, the response of 3:28:08.080 --> 3:28:13.800 apocalypse worship rather classic response around those who end up 3:28:13.800 --> 3:28:17.600 obsessing over collapse and honestly that the worshippers of the 3:28:17.640 --> 3:28:20.520 apocalypse are also houl to a form of blind hope. 3:28:21.160 --> 3:28:25.440 You know, the accelerationists, doomsday preppers, cultists, extreme survivalists, zombie 3:28:25.520 --> 3:28:29.240 video game enthusiasts, believers in the end times. They all 3:28:29.360 --> 3:28:32.840 seem to have a whole so they seem to have 3:28:33.360 --> 3:28:37.920 a real excitement for collapse, or they fixate really heavily 3:28:37.959 --> 3:28:39.840 on the ideal version of the end of the world, 3:28:41.440 --> 3:28:44.600 like they can't wait for the world to end. They 3:28:44.680 --> 3:28:47.320 embrace the sort of we're all on our own mantra, 3:28:48.160 --> 3:28:54.840 barricade themselves, bunker down, stockpile weapons and essentials. They get 3:28:54.879 --> 3:28:58.560 en up for a violent future because they anticipate that 3:28:58.800 --> 3:29:04.240 others will react to the situation similarly to how they 3:29:04.320 --> 3:29:07.800 intend to react. So they're taken like a page from 3:29:07.840 --> 3:29:10.800 ad Max and like, yeah, I'm going to be immortant Joe, 3:29:10.879 --> 3:29:14.280 so I don't end up a thrall of immortant Joe. 3:29:15.080 --> 3:29:15.280 Yeah. 3:29:16.320 --> 3:29:18.600 I mean, if it's not obvious, the people who respond 3:29:18.640 --> 3:29:21.080 in this way freak me out, you know, those who 3:29:21.160 --> 3:29:24.280 look at what's going on and instead of resisting or 3:29:24.320 --> 3:29:27.920 trying to change the circumstances, they just accept it as 3:29:28.000 --> 3:29:31.720 things going according to schedule of prophecy, or they try 3:29:31.800 --> 3:29:34.560 to make it worse. I don't know if you've seen 3:29:36.240 --> 3:29:37.039 Leave the World. 3:29:36.879 --> 3:29:39.680 Behind, Oh my god, yes, horrible. 3:29:42.120 --> 3:29:46.760 Yeah, I'm sure you remember that one character and that 3:29:46.959 --> 3:29:51.600 prepper and his whole response to the crisis before him 3:29:52.920 --> 3:29:55.040 completing that a selfishness. 3:29:55.320 --> 3:29:58.640 Which is a betrayal to his character inspiration in the 3:29:58.720 --> 3:30:01.920 movie Tremors, which showed the correct way to be a prepper, 3:30:02.040 --> 3:30:05.199 which is to actually help the people in your community. 3:30:06.920 --> 3:30:09.000 I actually haven't seen that movie. That it's my list. 3:30:09.640 --> 3:30:13.160 It's what it is a it is an old movie 3:30:13.200 --> 3:30:16.360 about a worm that takes over a small town. It's 3:30:16.440 --> 3:30:17.959 pretty silly, but it does. 3:30:20.240 --> 3:30:20.880 I don't think so. 3:30:21.280 --> 3:30:24.119 No, it sounds like something Stephen King would write. 3:30:24.520 --> 3:30:26.880 It's it's not really a horror. It's more of like 3:30:27.000 --> 3:30:28.640 a comedy thriller. 3:30:28.959 --> 3:30:30.960 Like it's a comedy. 3:30:31.360 --> 3:30:34.920 Okay, it's not a comedy, but it is a nately 3:30:35.040 --> 3:30:38.120 funny situation. Also because it's like filmed in the eighties 3:30:38.280 --> 3:30:41.440 or nineties, like it it just the way it's age 3:30:41.560 --> 3:30:42.520 just makes it more funny. 3:30:43.400 --> 3:30:45.280 But it is also a good movie. 3:30:46.600 --> 3:30:49.879 And and uh yeah after after this, I mean it's 3:30:50.080 --> 3:30:52.480 it's kind of like what if like an earthquake or 3:30:52.480 --> 3:30:54.879 a tornado hits this small town, except this is more 3:30:54.920 --> 3:30:58.200 like adversarial. It's like this like worm is like like 3:30:58.640 --> 3:31:01.640 like causing like the towns buildings like cave in because 3:31:01.680 --> 3:31:07.439 it's like digging underground. And we see we see this fantastic, 3:31:07.800 --> 3:31:11.920 fantastic prepper character is able to help everybody out because 3:31:11.920 --> 3:31:15.000 he is he is prepared for such a scenario. 3:31:17.640 --> 3:31:21.240 How kind of film? Yes, unlike unlike that through schebag 3:31:21.440 --> 3:31:27.320 and and leave the world behind. Yes, we'll talk about 3:31:27.320 --> 3:31:31.440 that movie after. Yeah. I mean, the last response I 3:31:31.480 --> 3:31:35.160 really wanted to cover was despair, pessimism, seeing the worst, 3:31:35.280 --> 3:31:40.440 expecting the worst, living and utter defeat, weighing down actual 3:31:40.560 --> 3:31:44.320 efforts with pessimism jumping into my comment section to be 3:31:44.440 --> 3:31:48.720 more in our fate. I mean, according to those in despair, 3:31:48.720 --> 3:31:51.600 there's nothing that we can do to affect our future, 3:31:52.760 --> 3:31:57.360 and in my eyes, those on this dumor pillar just 3:31:57.480 --> 3:32:02.320 as misguided as those who are hyped up with blind opium. 3:32:03.280 --> 3:32:05.680 I think it's okay to admit that we don't know 3:32:05.800 --> 3:32:08.360 what's going to happen. You know, I don't claim to 3:32:08.400 --> 3:32:11.880 your profit. I don't think anybody should. The IPCC reports, 3:32:11.920 --> 3:32:18.480 for example, are a consensus of scientists and their understanding 3:32:18.480 --> 3:32:21.480 of the situation. Some scientists are going to be more 3:32:21.720 --> 3:32:25.160 conservative in their report in their reporting, others are a 3:32:25.200 --> 3:32:31.000 bit more catastrophes. But either way, I really don't think 3:32:31.040 --> 3:32:32.600 we need to get into the weeds of just how 3:32:32.680 --> 3:32:34.800 bad it is or exactly how it's going to happen, 3:32:35.400 --> 3:32:38.480 but matters that things need to change some way, somehow. 3:32:39.480 --> 3:32:42.800 I think it's important to try and understand as much 3:32:42.800 --> 3:32:44.840 as the situation as you could not to the point 3:32:44.879 --> 3:32:49.640 of obsession. To take note of how we respond to 3:32:49.720 --> 3:32:51.959 the issue, To look at the various responses I covered 3:32:52.040 --> 3:32:54.240 and see if you fit into any of those camps, 3:32:55.360 --> 3:33:00.360 and to recognize that the worst case scenario is far 3:33:00.640 --> 3:33:04.840 from inevitable. My advice is ready to prepare for the 3:33:04.959 --> 3:33:09.000 worst in whatever way you can, and put hope and 3:33:09.560 --> 3:33:15.360 build for the best. Build community, build connections, build your skills, 3:33:15.520 --> 3:33:22.120 build your strengths, and push in any way that you 3:33:22.240 --> 3:33:26.200 can in whatever's fare you find yourself for meaningful change. 3:33:28.120 --> 3:33:34.240 Because say it with me now, it could happen here. 3:33:35.000 --> 3:33:36.400 It certainly could. 3:33:37.920 --> 3:33:41.840 That's it for me. I'm on YouTube andwism, I'm on 3:33:41.959 --> 3:33:46.480 patureon dot com, slash saint tu. That's it. We'll power 3:33:46.560 --> 3:33:48.800 to all the people. Peace. 3:33:52.320 --> 3:33:52.480 Hey. 3:33:52.640 --> 3:33:55.720 We'll be back Monday with more episodes every week from 3:33:55.760 --> 3:33:57.440 now until the heat death of the universe. 3:33:58.080 --> 3:34:00.400 It could happen here as a production of cool Zone Media. 3:34:00.640 --> 3:34:03.280 For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 3:34:03.360 --> 3:34:05.520 cool Zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the 3:34:05.600 --> 3:34:09.000 iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. 3:34:09.440 --> 3:34:11.560 You can find sources for It could happen here. Updated 3:34:11.640 --> 3:34:15.640 monthly at coolzonemedia dot com. Slash Sources thanks for listening.