1 00:00:01,840 --> 00:00:03,120 Speaker 1: Also media. 2 00:00:03,400 --> 00:00:05,800 Speaker 2: Hey everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let 3 00:00:05,880 --> 00:00:09,480 Speaker 2: you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode 4 00:00:09,640 --> 00:00:12,559 Speaker 2: of the week that just happened is here in one 5 00:00:12,640 --> 00:00:16,400 Speaker 2: convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to 6 00:00:16,440 --> 00:00:18,880 Speaker 2: listen to in a long stretch if you want. If 7 00:00:18,920 --> 00:00:20,840 Speaker 2: you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, 8 00:00:20,880 --> 00:00:23,079 Speaker 2: there's gonna be nothing new here for you, but you 9 00:00:23,120 --> 00:00:24,360 Speaker 2: can make your own decisions. 10 00:00:26,840 --> 00:00:30,240 Speaker 3: Welcome, We could happen. Wow, Okay, we're just both doing 11 00:00:30,280 --> 00:00:33,080 Speaker 3: the intro all right. I wanted to be the intro. 12 00:00:33,200 --> 00:00:36,160 Speaker 4: I was saying that wokness has won the Super Bowl. 13 00:00:36,720 --> 00:00:42,080 Speaker 3: Ah, because okay, okay, hold on, this is my this 14 00:00:42,159 --> 00:00:44,080 Speaker 3: is this is my moment. I've got the soapbox, this 15 00:00:44,120 --> 00:00:47,120 Speaker 3: is it could happen here. Everyone has the Taylor Swift conspiracy. 16 00:00:47,159 --> 00:00:47,400 Speaker 1: Wrong. 17 00:00:47,760 --> 00:00:51,120 Speaker 3: Taylor Swift is completely uninvolved in the NFL's conspiracy to 18 00:00:51,120 --> 00:00:53,680 Speaker 3: make sure Patrick Mahomes wins every fucking game. All of 19 00:00:53,720 --> 00:00:57,160 Speaker 3: these fucking all these fucking bogged chuds or fucking Johnny 20 00:00:57,160 --> 00:00:59,920 Speaker 3: come Late doesn't care about football fans. Real fans know 21 00:01:00,240 --> 00:01:02,600 Speaker 3: if you look at every fourth quarter of every fucking 22 00:01:02,680 --> 00:01:05,200 Speaker 3: Chiefs game before Taylor should have got involved. It looks 23 00:01:05,240 --> 00:01:08,000 Speaker 3: exactly the same. All right, this has been it can 24 00:01:08,040 --> 00:01:09,560 Speaker 3: happen here. We may or may not cut that. 25 00:01:09,760 --> 00:01:13,880 Speaker 4: I can't believe that the liberal Taylor Swift, Joe Biden's 26 00:01:13,920 --> 00:01:19,919 Speaker 4: puppet Taylor Swift and Travis Peiser Kelsey stole the Super 27 00:01:19,959 --> 00:01:24,959 Speaker 4: Bowl from the good Christian people of San Francisco, the 28 00:01:25,000 --> 00:01:27,880 Speaker 4: only bashtate of conservatism left in this country. 29 00:01:28,120 --> 00:01:31,959 Speaker 3: It is so incredibly funny, Like, okay, so it's so 30 00:01:32,080 --> 00:01:34,480 Speaker 3: curtly funny to me, A that they're not mad at 31 00:01:34,520 --> 00:01:40,840 Speaker 3: Patrick Mahomes and b that somehow okay, the Chiefs, Like, 32 00:01:40,920 --> 00:01:44,080 Speaker 3: imagine you're a Chiefs fan, right, you have been for 33 00:01:44,160 --> 00:01:48,760 Speaker 3: like thirty years racist, you have been doing a cult 34 00:01:49,040 --> 00:01:52,680 Speaker 3: and I quote the Tomahawk chop, like you are the 35 00:01:52,680 --> 00:01:56,600 Speaker 3: most racist person in your entire small town. And then 36 00:01:56,760 --> 00:01:59,800 Speaker 3: all of these fucking dipshits online, all these fucking right 37 00:02:00,080 --> 00:02:02,480 Speaker 3: dipshits immediately and like all of you guys are like 38 00:02:02,560 --> 00:02:05,960 Speaker 3: fucking pussy woke libs. And it's just like, like, imagine 39 00:02:06,000 --> 00:02:08,920 Speaker 3: being that racist for that long only to be immediately 40 00:02:08,960 --> 00:02:09,800 Speaker 3: tossed aside. 41 00:02:10,440 --> 00:02:13,920 Speaker 4: It is kind of baffling that in like the country's 42 00:02:14,000 --> 00:02:19,200 Speaker 4: national divorce overwokeness. Somehow the Liberals get to keep football 43 00:02:19,680 --> 00:02:23,520 Speaker 4: like this is that's so bizarre that that now football 44 00:02:23,560 --> 00:02:26,079 Speaker 4: is seen as like a liberal cuck thing to enjoy 45 00:02:26,160 --> 00:02:31,840 Speaker 4: among the largest swaths of of Republicans, at least at 46 00:02:31,919 --> 00:02:33,280 Speaker 4: least online Republicans. 47 00:02:33,600 --> 00:02:36,400 Speaker 3: It's really funny, fascinating. This is how we're going to 48 00:02:36,480 --> 00:02:38,880 Speaker 3: beat them in the fucking civil war because we're going 49 00:02:38,919 --> 00:02:41,120 Speaker 3: to take the college campuses, which means that we're going 50 00:02:41,160 --> 00:02:43,920 Speaker 3: to have the only watchable footballs. These bastards are going 51 00:02:43,960 --> 00:02:47,160 Speaker 3: to be reduced to watching fucking high school games. Like speaking, 52 00:02:47,360 --> 00:02:51,440 Speaker 3: speaking of watching football. Yeah, so the thing this episode 53 00:02:51,480 --> 00:02:54,080 Speaker 3: is actually about is if you watch the Super Bowl 54 00:02:54,200 --> 00:02:56,640 Speaker 3: or like, God help you, you've tried to use YouTube 55 00:02:56,680 --> 00:02:58,880 Speaker 3: without an ad blocker, a thing I do not recommend 56 00:02:58,960 --> 00:03:03,359 Speaker 3: at all. You have seen ads for Temu with it's 57 00:03:03,440 --> 00:03:09,200 Speaker 3: TMU or Temu Temu. Okay, yeah, it has the absolute 58 00:03:09,480 --> 00:03:20,360 Speaker 3: the absolutely oh good god, yeah, this this app This 59 00:03:20,440 --> 00:03:23,720 Speaker 3: one This one's bad, folks, This one's I I went 60 00:03:23,800 --> 00:03:27,800 Speaker 3: insane and have been spiraling for like two weeks now 61 00:03:28,240 --> 00:03:31,799 Speaker 3: writing this, so you know. So it has the absolutely 62 00:03:31,800 --> 00:03:34,480 Speaker 3: dog shit tagline shop like a billionaire. 63 00:03:34,840 --> 00:03:39,720 Speaker 4: Wait, that's its tagline. Yeah, oh that's weird. 64 00:03:40,120 --> 00:03:44,000 Speaker 3: It's funny. The everything is they only have one ad, righty, 65 00:03:46,800 --> 00:03:48,360 Speaker 3: it's not just super Bowl like it's It's been on 66 00:03:48,400 --> 00:03:51,160 Speaker 3: YouTube for like ages. But yeah, so this begs the 67 00:03:51,160 --> 00:03:55,040 Speaker 3: obvious question, what on earth is this thing? And the 68 00:03:55,120 --> 00:03:58,200 Speaker 3: answer is that Temu is the American version of a 69 00:03:58,280 --> 00:04:02,160 Speaker 3: Chinese shopping app called pindu. You will hear people pronouncing 70 00:04:02,160 --> 00:04:06,760 Speaker 3: it pin duo duo. That's because they're hacks and frauds. 71 00:04:07,720 --> 00:04:09,960 Speaker 3: So but I'm just gonna call it so. The company, 72 00:04:10,080 --> 00:04:13,320 Speaker 3: the parent company for both Temu and Pindua Doua, changed 73 00:04:13,360 --> 00:04:15,240 Speaker 3: their name to PDD, so I'm just gonna call it 74 00:04:15,280 --> 00:04:20,239 Speaker 3: that two. So yeah, PDD is China's worst tech giant. 75 00:04:20,760 --> 00:04:23,200 Speaker 3: They have worked multiple of their employees to death. They 76 00:04:23,240 --> 00:04:29,440 Speaker 3: probably also use slave labor. Those are unrelated stories. So today, 77 00:04:29,760 --> 00:04:32,200 Speaker 3: welcome to the abyss. This is the story of Tamu. 78 00:04:32,320 --> 00:04:34,560 Speaker 3: I have stared into it, and now you motherfuckers are 79 00:04:34,600 --> 00:04:36,440 Speaker 3: coming with me and staring into it some more. 80 00:04:36,880 --> 00:04:39,120 Speaker 4: Well, it's more like we're listening into it because it 81 00:04:39,120 --> 00:04:39,640 Speaker 4: doesn't really have. 82 00:04:39,640 --> 00:04:43,840 Speaker 3: A visual No, no, you're staring into it. Okay, you 83 00:04:44,040 --> 00:04:47,440 Speaker 3: you will get visuals. I will say to this bullshit, 84 00:04:49,040 --> 00:04:53,800 Speaker 3: I will I will start hallucinating in my office. Yeah. 85 00:04:53,839 --> 00:04:58,680 Speaker 3: So Timuo is the American version of PDD. PDD it 86 00:04:58,839 --> 00:05:03,920 Speaker 3: roughly translates two together more savings together, so it's like 87 00:05:03,960 --> 00:05:14,360 Speaker 3: a co op. Actually, it probably sells stuff from co ops. Okay, huh. 88 00:05:14,760 --> 00:05:19,280 Speaker 3: So PDD is the second largest shopping app in China 89 00:05:19,360 --> 00:05:23,320 Speaker 3: behind Ali Baba. Alibaba is China's like version of Amazon. Basically, 90 00:05:23,440 --> 00:05:27,760 Speaker 3: they're the second largest app. Ali Baba reportedly has eight 91 00:05:27,839 --> 00:05:32,120 Speaker 3: hundred and sixty sixty three million users per year. That's 92 00:05:32,160 --> 00:05:35,120 Speaker 3: a lot of users. Yeah, that's that's multiple us is. 93 00:05:35,480 --> 00:05:38,400 Speaker 3: PDD has been claiming that they have seven hundred and 94 00:05:38,440 --> 00:05:42,560 Speaker 3: forty million monthly users. It's unclear if that's exactly true, 95 00:05:42,600 --> 00:05:45,440 Speaker 3: but it's probably around there, which again, that is twice 96 00:05:45,480 --> 00:05:48,880 Speaker 3: the entire population of the US. So this is a 97 00:05:49,040 --> 00:05:55,040 Speaker 3: fucking unbelievably massive company. And to understand what this what 98 00:05:55,080 --> 00:05:57,480 Speaker 3: this company is, and how it became probably the worst 99 00:05:57,520 --> 00:05:59,560 Speaker 3: of the Chinese tech giants, we have to go back 100 00:05:59,680 --> 00:06:04,120 Speaker 3: to the very beginning. And the very beginning is this 101 00:06:04,200 --> 00:06:09,000 Speaker 3: guy named Colin Huang. Huang is a weird guy. I 102 00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:11,720 Speaker 3: don't know he's he's he's the Chinese version of the 103 00:06:11,760 --> 00:06:16,960 Speaker 3: American tech bro. So he's you know, he's he's a 104 00:06:17,080 --> 00:06:21,039 Speaker 3: recognizable like asshole who started a giant company, but he's 105 00:06:21,040 --> 00:06:25,560 Speaker 3: not exactly the same. So he So he graduates from 106 00:06:26,160 --> 00:06:28,520 Speaker 3: like college in China, and in the early two thousands 107 00:06:28,520 --> 00:06:30,760 Speaker 3: he goes to the University of Wisconsin to get a 108 00:06:30,760 --> 00:06:33,599 Speaker 3: master's degree in computer science, which it like it should 109 00:06:33,600 --> 00:06:35,839 Speaker 3: be illegal for anyone to get degrees in computer science. 110 00:06:36,800 --> 00:06:39,400 Speaker 3: Terrible stuff, zero out of time. I should know how 111 00:06:39,440 --> 00:06:40,240 Speaker 3: to use computers. 112 00:06:40,560 --> 00:06:42,760 Speaker 4: I can't believe you'd be believe in the status legal 113 00:06:42,800 --> 00:06:44,719 Speaker 4: system to prevent people from learning. 114 00:06:45,640 --> 00:06:49,360 Speaker 3: Fin social sanctions. We're going to make it morally illegal. 115 00:06:49,680 --> 00:06:51,400 Speaker 3: You're going to get chased out by people with the 116 00:06:51,480 --> 00:06:53,279 Speaker 3: rocks on the street if you try to type something 117 00:06:53,279 --> 00:06:55,839 Speaker 3: they get to a computer. So okay. So he's at 118 00:06:55,839 --> 00:06:58,320 Speaker 3: the University of Wisconsin, and while he's there, he basically 119 00:06:58,360 --> 00:07:02,159 Speaker 3: like posts his way into becoming the pro basically the 120 00:07:02,200 --> 00:07:07,000 Speaker 3: protegee of Chinese tech billionaire Duan Youngping. This is an 121 00:07:07,040 --> 00:07:12,640 Speaker 3: interesting relationship. Duan is like a very very influential Chinese 122 00:07:12,680 --> 00:07:15,800 Speaker 3: tech tech billionaire. He gets every single article calls him 123 00:07:15,800 --> 00:07:19,640 Speaker 3: the Warren Buffett of China. I I don't fucking know, 124 00:07:19,680 --> 00:07:21,800 Speaker 3: but like you know, for like for examples, like how 125 00:07:21,800 --> 00:07:24,440 Speaker 3: big this guy is like Vivo and like the one 126 00:07:24,520 --> 00:07:26,760 Speaker 3: plus company the mixed phones, those are both like spin 127 00:07:26,800 --> 00:07:29,760 Speaker 3: offs of like things that he built. But yeah, so 128 00:07:29,880 --> 00:07:32,600 Speaker 3: you know, so this is this is an interesting relationship 129 00:07:32,640 --> 00:07:36,000 Speaker 3: for Huang because and it's also interesting because like the 130 00:07:36,440 --> 00:07:39,080 Speaker 3: narrative around Huang and PDDs that they're like these like 131 00:07:39,160 --> 00:07:41,760 Speaker 3: hungry upstarts, like clunging their way up from nothing, and 132 00:07:41,800 --> 00:07:44,280 Speaker 3: they can like go after Ali Baba and the Chinese 133 00:07:44,280 --> 00:07:47,600 Speaker 3: like tech market wars because they're like they're ferocious, they 134 00:07:47,600 --> 00:07:49,200 Speaker 3: have like nothing to lose, and like they're rich and 135 00:07:49,280 --> 00:07:52,000 Speaker 3: fat Ali Baba and like nah, like this guy has 136 00:07:52,000 --> 00:07:54,400 Speaker 3: had the backing of like a bunch of really powerful 137 00:07:54,480 --> 00:07:59,000 Speaker 3: Chinese tech guys, like from the absolute beginning. Another part 138 00:07:59,040 --> 00:08:02,960 Speaker 3: of like the Huang lore is that Dwan like took 139 00:08:03,040 --> 00:08:06,320 Speaker 3: him to this really famous dinner where Warren Buffett was 140 00:08:06,360 --> 00:08:08,920 Speaker 3: offering if if you donated like six hundred and twenty 141 00:08:08,920 --> 00:08:11,440 Speaker 3: thousand dollars a charity, he would like eat dinner with 142 00:08:11,480 --> 00:08:16,120 Speaker 3: you and like talk with you about like finance stuff. 143 00:08:17,960 --> 00:08:22,000 Speaker 3: And so Dwan like buys this thing to go to 144 00:08:22,040 --> 00:08:24,760 Speaker 3: dinner with Warren Buffett and brings Huang with him, and 145 00:08:25,000 --> 00:08:30,720 Speaker 3: he Huang, Who's Who's Huang's the founder of PD again, 146 00:08:30,800 --> 00:08:34,440 Speaker 3: so he gives him credit for like this, this like 147 00:08:34,559 --> 00:08:37,280 Speaker 3: financial wisdom that he got here. Here's just from an 148 00:08:37,280 --> 00:08:41,520 Speaker 3: interview with side Jim. This is a Chinese outlet. What 149 00:08:41,600 --> 00:08:44,240 Speaker 3: Buffett said is actually very simple and can be understood 150 00:08:44,240 --> 00:08:47,120 Speaker 3: by my mother. Perhaps what this meal meant most to 151 00:08:47,160 --> 00:08:49,560 Speaker 3: me was that I realized the power of simplicity and 152 00:08:49,600 --> 00:08:53,480 Speaker 3: common sense. Human thoughts are easily polluted. When you make 153 00:08:53,480 --> 00:08:56,240 Speaker 3: a judgment on something, you need to understand the backgrounds 154 00:08:56,240 --> 00:09:00,640 Speaker 3: and facts. After understanding it, what you need is wisdom, 155 00:09:00,760 --> 00:09:02,719 Speaker 3: but whether you have the courage to use reason when 156 00:09:02,760 --> 00:09:06,600 Speaker 3: facing facts use common sense to judge. Common sense is 157 00:09:06,640 --> 00:09:09,360 Speaker 3: obvious and easy to understand. But our various biases and 158 00:09:09,440 --> 00:09:13,320 Speaker 3: personal interests form due to growth and learning blind us. 159 00:09:13,840 --> 00:09:17,640 Speaker 3: So this is like entrepreneurial bullshit. But you know this 160 00:09:17,679 --> 00:09:19,960 Speaker 3: is apparently this is like a big formative like thing. 161 00:09:20,120 --> 00:09:22,760 Speaker 3: Like ah, he like got the wisdom of word Buffett, 162 00:09:22,760 --> 00:09:27,200 Speaker 3: and he listened to it. It's just like what there's 163 00:09:27,880 --> 00:09:29,680 Speaker 3: the thing I think is more interesting is that he 164 00:09:29,800 --> 00:09:32,959 Speaker 3: talks about what in the same interview what Dwan taught him. 165 00:09:33,600 --> 00:09:36,040 Speaker 3: Dwan also taught me a common sense thing in business. 166 00:09:36,080 --> 00:09:39,440 Speaker 3: Price fluctuates around value. The price will definitely fluctuate, but 167 00:09:39,480 --> 00:09:42,000 Speaker 3: as long as your value increases, the final price will 168 00:09:42,040 --> 00:09:45,160 Speaker 3: be close to the value. This common sense allows you 169 00:09:45,240 --> 00:09:47,920 Speaker 3: to focus on increasing the intrinsic value of the company 170 00:09:47,960 --> 00:09:50,880 Speaker 3: and not be overly concerned about price fluctuations in the 171 00:09:50,880 --> 00:09:55,320 Speaker 3: capital market. And this, to me is fascinating because the 172 00:09:55,320 --> 00:09:58,439 Speaker 3: first half of that is like orthodox Marxist price theory, 173 00:09:59,160 --> 00:10:01,800 Speaker 3: like in like in Marxist price theory, right, the whole 174 00:10:01,840 --> 00:10:04,280 Speaker 3: thing about it is that price is determined by value. 175 00:10:04,559 --> 00:10:07,000 Speaker 3: The value of a commodity is determined by like the 176 00:10:07,080 --> 00:10:09,280 Speaker 3: number the amount of labor hour is socially necessary to 177 00:10:09,320 --> 00:10:12,960 Speaker 3: produce it, and eventually, like price, sort of like fluctuation, 178 00:10:13,320 --> 00:10:15,600 Speaker 3: the price can change. It's not price isn't like identical 179 00:10:15,640 --> 00:10:19,200 Speaker 3: to like socially necessarily like labor time, but it like 180 00:10:19,240 --> 00:10:21,200 Speaker 3: fluctuates abround it. And so that's like the first part 181 00:10:21,200 --> 00:10:23,520 Speaker 3: of it, which is the Marxist thing, except this is 182 00:10:23,559 --> 00:10:28,880 Speaker 3: like China, like modern like twenty twenties China. So Marxist 183 00:10:28,920 --> 00:10:32,160 Speaker 3: value theory has been degraded to like, make your company 184 00:10:32,240 --> 00:10:35,720 Speaker 3: valuable and don't worry about stock prices and market fluctuations. 185 00:10:35,760 --> 00:10:36,839 Speaker 3: It'll work out in the end. 186 00:10:37,320 --> 00:10:40,800 Speaker 4: So true, so true, based based. 187 00:10:41,520 --> 00:10:44,040 Speaker 3: I mean, the funny thing is this is actually better, 188 00:10:44,840 --> 00:10:49,760 Speaker 3: like you get the advice than like most of the 189 00:10:49,800 --> 00:10:55,240 Speaker 3: shit that like American CEOs use. But it's also, oh god, 190 00:10:55,440 --> 00:10:59,960 Speaker 3: what has happened to my poor value theory, my beloved, 191 00:11:00,120 --> 00:11:02,840 Speaker 3: my beloved theory of how capitalism works has been turned 192 00:11:02,880 --> 00:11:09,040 Speaker 3: into this weird tech bullshit, a tragedy. So meanwhile, back 193 00:11:09,080 --> 00:11:12,199 Speaker 3: in two thousand and four, Dwan convinces Hwang to turn 194 00:11:12,320 --> 00:11:15,160 Speaker 3: down a bunch of these jobs. So he's he's like 195 00:11:15,200 --> 00:11:18,319 Speaker 3: a computer science graduate, right, and he's being headhunted by 196 00:11:18,400 --> 00:11:20,680 Speaker 3: like a bunch of the sort of like mainstream tech 197 00:11:20,679 --> 00:11:23,400 Speaker 3: companies at the times, like Oracle, Microsoft, and they're giving 198 00:11:23,440 --> 00:11:25,240 Speaker 3: they want to give him like an enormous amount of money, 199 00:11:25,720 --> 00:11:28,920 Speaker 3: but his mentors like, no, no, no, don't take this 200 00:11:29,120 --> 00:11:32,360 Speaker 3: tech job, take the Silicon Valley tech job. Join Google. 201 00:11:33,559 --> 00:11:35,920 Speaker 3: And so he joins Google. And this is this is 202 00:11:35,920 --> 00:11:37,760 Speaker 3: another like very famous things like ah, he wanted to 203 00:11:37,840 --> 00:11:40,120 Speaker 3: join the like up and coming hungry tech startup. But 204 00:11:40,160 --> 00:11:43,200 Speaker 3: here's the thing, so Google. He joins Google in two 205 00:11:43,240 --> 00:11:45,280 Speaker 3: thousand and four, which is kind of early, but Google 206 00:11:45,320 --> 00:11:50,400 Speaker 3: also goes public that year, so you know, this is 207 00:11:50,440 --> 00:11:52,200 Speaker 3: up working really well for him because he gets a 208 00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:54,560 Speaker 3: bunch of stock options that those stock options are worth 209 00:11:54,640 --> 00:11:57,040 Speaker 3: millions of dollars. That's a lot of Also, some of 210 00:11:57,040 --> 00:11:59,320 Speaker 3: the startup capital for like the later companies he founds 211 00:11:59,360 --> 00:12:03,880 Speaker 3: comes from that. And Huang really quickly like works his 212 00:12:03,920 --> 00:12:07,800 Speaker 3: way up the ranks. But he so he gets put 213 00:12:07,840 --> 00:12:11,080 Speaker 3: in charge of like launching Google in China, and this 214 00:12:11,200 --> 00:12:14,680 Speaker 3: is a fiasco, does not work at all. Huang blames 215 00:12:14,840 --> 00:12:18,280 Speaker 3: like too much oversight from people at the senior leadership 216 00:12:18,280 --> 00:12:20,320 Speaker 3: at Google, which I can get, but I mean it 217 00:12:20,360 --> 00:12:22,960 Speaker 3: just doesn't work at all. Like he starts as at 218 00:12:22,960 --> 00:12:25,520 Speaker 3: two thousand and six. By twenty ten, Google has pulled 219 00:12:25,520 --> 00:12:27,320 Speaker 3: out of China entirely, like they're not they're not trying 220 00:12:27,320 --> 00:12:29,800 Speaker 3: to push the fucking search edge because nobody uses it. 221 00:12:30,880 --> 00:12:35,840 Speaker 3: So okayv having having like unbelievably bombed out of his 222 00:12:35,880 --> 00:12:39,400 Speaker 3: first tech job, he he he does the like entrepreneur thing. 223 00:12:39,480 --> 00:12:43,640 Speaker 3: He's he starts like a couple of these like shopping 224 00:12:44,080 --> 00:12:47,160 Speaker 3: like online shopping companies they do like fine, and he 225 00:12:47,240 --> 00:12:51,920 Speaker 3: sells them, but they don't like do incredible and so okay. 226 00:12:51,920 --> 00:12:53,200 Speaker 3: So this is the part that a lot of the 227 00:12:53,200 --> 00:12:55,560 Speaker 3: accounts of him leave out, like the sort of like 228 00:12:55,600 --> 00:12:58,000 Speaker 3: fawning accounts leave out. Is the next thing that he does, 229 00:12:58,040 --> 00:13:00,480 Speaker 3: which is he sets up this like really shit game 230 00:13:00,559 --> 00:13:04,239 Speaker 3: studio and they make like a bunch of like absolutely 231 00:13:04,360 --> 00:13:09,000 Speaker 3: unbelievably weird and horny mobile games. So they make like 232 00:13:09,160 --> 00:13:13,679 Speaker 3: Mafia City, Joy Spade, Texas, Hold'm Poker. They had this 233 00:13:13,720 --> 00:13:17,440 Speaker 3: game called Girl ex Battle that is like you assemble 234 00:13:17,520 --> 00:13:20,120 Speaker 3: a harem of girlfriends and then have them fight other people. 235 00:13:20,760 --> 00:13:24,840 Speaker 3: Instead of like absolutely have you played any of these 236 00:13:25,120 --> 00:13:27,800 Speaker 3: Oh no, absolutely not. I refuse. I think I've actually 237 00:13:27,840 --> 00:13:31,440 Speaker 3: seen Mafia City ads before, but it's like, like it's 238 00:13:31,679 --> 00:13:37,160 Speaker 3: the absolute most dogshit like bargain basement. I guess they're 239 00:13:37,240 --> 00:13:38,480 Speaker 3: kind of pre gotcha games. 240 00:13:38,800 --> 00:13:41,880 Speaker 4: I was just wondering how far your dedication to research 241 00:13:41,960 --> 00:13:42,720 Speaker 4: went here, but. 242 00:13:42,679 --> 00:13:45,480 Speaker 3: Not far enough. Look, here's the thing, my dedication of 243 00:13:45,559 --> 00:13:48,400 Speaker 3: research went exactly far enough that I refuse to install 244 00:13:48,480 --> 00:13:50,440 Speaker 3: any of these apps for reasons that we'll get into 245 00:13:50,559 --> 00:13:54,200 Speaker 3: next episode. I was like, absolutely not. In fact, this. 246 00:13:54,480 --> 00:13:57,960 Speaker 3: Doing this research actually caused me to uninstall chaw Bus, 247 00:13:58,040 --> 00:14:00,520 Speaker 3: which is like a Chinese food delivery app, because I 248 00:14:00,559 --> 00:14:03,000 Speaker 3: realized that it was constantly running in the background to 249 00:14:03,160 --> 00:14:07,080 Speaker 3: like to drive up. It's like user engagement metrics. 250 00:14:06,800 --> 00:14:10,239 Speaker 4: That is completely fair, although if you were even more dedicated, 251 00:14:10,440 --> 00:14:12,240 Speaker 4: you could have bought a burner phone to download all 252 00:14:12,240 --> 00:14:13,640 Speaker 4: these apps onto and tested on that. 253 00:14:13,840 --> 00:14:20,600 Speaker 3: So that's true, but I no, I refuse to let 254 00:14:20,600 --> 00:14:23,960 Speaker 3: that shit connect to my internet. Like, under no circumstances. 255 00:14:24,400 --> 00:14:26,320 Speaker 4: You can go to a Starbucks, you can go to 256 00:14:26,360 --> 00:14:28,520 Speaker 4: a see I've just thrown out options here. 257 00:14:29,800 --> 00:14:33,720 Speaker 3: I probably could have done this, but no, absolutely not. Actually, well, 258 00:14:34,120 --> 00:14:37,040 Speaker 3: it's actually really hard to download the Chinese version of 259 00:14:37,080 --> 00:14:39,320 Speaker 3: this for reasons that we'll get into the next episode. 260 00:14:39,640 --> 00:14:43,000 Speaker 3: All right, all right, but okay, So, like he's running 261 00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:46,520 Speaker 3: this shitty game company and he has a genuinely brilliant 262 00:14:46,760 --> 00:14:52,280 Speaker 3: and terrible insight, which is that she sees how addictive 263 00:14:52,560 --> 00:14:55,840 Speaker 3: like mobile gaming and how addictive like micro transactions are, 264 00:14:56,920 --> 00:14:59,680 Speaker 3: and he goes, oh shit, what if I put this 265 00:14:59,720 --> 00:15:01,360 Speaker 3: in a sh popping gap except that because that's the 266 00:15:01,400 --> 00:15:03,600 Speaker 3: reasonable way to explain it. But like, the thing he 267 00:15:03,680 --> 00:15:05,840 Speaker 3: actually did was like why are okay? His thought his 268 00:15:05,880 --> 00:15:09,040 Speaker 3: actual thought process was why are we not selling game 269 00:15:09,240 --> 00:15:11,760 Speaker 3: games are all like advertised in men, right, Like these 270 00:15:11,840 --> 00:15:15,160 Speaker 3: the apps that he's making are like weird, horny stuff 271 00:15:15,160 --> 00:15:17,560 Speaker 3: for guys. Why are we not making games of women? 272 00:15:18,240 --> 00:15:21,320 Speaker 3: Which is reasonable, But then his follow up was, uh, 273 00:15:21,480 --> 00:15:25,440 Speaker 3: effectively women be shopping, and he was like, so trying, 274 00:15:25,520 --> 00:15:29,400 Speaker 3: and we'll make a shopping thing. It's just like we'll 275 00:15:29,440 --> 00:15:32,240 Speaker 3: make we'll make we'll make an app to make shopping 276 00:15:32,240 --> 00:15:35,120 Speaker 3: into a game, and so and one of the things 277 00:15:35,160 --> 00:15:36,680 Speaker 3: he's he's also been doing one of the like the 278 00:15:36,760 --> 00:15:39,840 Speaker 3: kind of like search engine optimization scams, where like he 279 00:15:39,920 --> 00:15:43,800 Speaker 3: just keeps making different shopping like shopping websites and hoping 280 00:15:43,800 --> 00:15:45,880 Speaker 3: that one of them will like climb in the search rankings. 281 00:15:46,640 --> 00:15:49,720 Speaker 3: But eventually he hits on a like a combination of 282 00:15:50,120 --> 00:15:55,160 Speaker 3: using the like dog shit like addictive mobile gamification stuff 283 00:15:55,200 --> 00:15:57,920 Speaker 3: from his mobile games in a like in an online 284 00:15:57,920 --> 00:15:59,880 Speaker 3: shopping app, and he hits on that as the idea 285 00:16:00,720 --> 00:16:02,720 Speaker 3: for a new shopping app. And this is what turns 286 00:16:02,760 --> 00:16:05,800 Speaker 3: into PDD. Now do you know what didn't turn into 287 00:16:05,800 --> 00:16:07,600 Speaker 3: PDD and is in fact better? 288 00:16:09,080 --> 00:16:12,880 Speaker 4: Hopefully these ads that are not for Temo we better 289 00:16:12,880 --> 00:16:14,400 Speaker 4: not get a fucking temo ade. 290 00:16:14,640 --> 00:16:22,360 Speaker 3: Hopefully, I it's actually possible. It's oh god, well, careful 291 00:16:22,400 --> 00:16:38,000 Speaker 3: what you wish for, and we're back. So PDD doesn't 292 00:16:38,040 --> 00:16:42,040 Speaker 3: start in the way that normal tech app things do, 293 00:16:42,840 --> 00:16:45,240 Speaker 3: which is to say that PDD starts as an online 294 00:16:45,320 --> 00:16:49,200 Speaker 3: fruit vendor. Now, okay, if you know anything like. 295 00:16:49,160 --> 00:16:52,200 Speaker 4: A like a farmer's market online like what what? 296 00:16:52,440 --> 00:16:56,160 Speaker 3: Yeah? Okay, So if you know anything about how like 297 00:16:56,280 --> 00:17:01,560 Speaker 3: Amazon worked, right, So Amazon goes from books to a 298 00:17:01,600 --> 00:17:05,600 Speaker 3: bunch of stuff to food. PDD does this backwards. They 299 00:17:05,640 --> 00:17:09,600 Speaker 3: start in food. Now, this is very weird. And the 300 00:17:09,680 --> 00:17:13,640 Speaker 3: reason this works, and the reason that PDD starts as 301 00:17:13,640 --> 00:17:16,400 Speaker 3: a marketplace for rural farmers to self roofs and vegetables 302 00:17:16,440 --> 00:17:19,960 Speaker 3: like directly to consumers is because unfortunately of the structure 303 00:17:19,960 --> 00:17:22,160 Speaker 3: of the Chinese agricultural market, which we have to talk 304 00:17:22,200 --> 00:17:25,320 Speaker 3: about a little bit. So something I talked about. God, 305 00:17:25,320 --> 00:17:26,960 Speaker 3: I don't know how many years ago this was now, 306 00:17:27,240 --> 00:17:29,720 Speaker 3: but like a while back I did an episode about 307 00:17:29,720 --> 00:17:33,600 Speaker 3: this company that poisons like three hundred thousand babies by 308 00:17:33,600 --> 00:17:36,400 Speaker 3: making poisoned milk in China. And one of the things 309 00:17:36,400 --> 00:17:37,919 Speaker 3: though that was a Bassard's episode one of the things 310 00:17:37,960 --> 00:17:42,639 Speaker 3: I talked about in that episode was how the Chinese 311 00:17:42,680 --> 00:17:47,439 Speaker 3: agricultural market is incredibly fragmented. We don't have time to 312 00:17:47,480 --> 00:17:51,520 Speaker 3: do a full history of rural decollectivization here, but the 313 00:17:51,600 --> 00:17:53,360 Speaker 3: upshot of it is that it results in a lot 314 00:17:53,359 --> 00:17:56,600 Speaker 3: of farmers working really small plots of land who are 315 00:17:56,600 --> 00:17:58,800 Speaker 3: forced to sell their goods to a series of middlemen 316 00:17:58,840 --> 00:18:02,200 Speaker 3: who make the actual profits. And because these farmers have 317 00:18:02,359 --> 00:18:04,680 Speaker 3: like a tiny amount of land and grow stuff on 318 00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:07,600 Speaker 3: or they have like two cows, right, they don't have 319 00:18:07,600 --> 00:18:10,840 Speaker 3: the financial leverage to negotiate with like the middleman, the 320 00:18:10,880 --> 00:18:13,600 Speaker 3: middle bank can just set prices on them. And and 321 00:18:13,640 --> 00:18:16,040 Speaker 3: the product of this is you have a really really 322 00:18:16,119 --> 00:18:18,520 Speaker 3: fragmented market where there's just like all of these like 323 00:18:18,600 --> 00:18:22,560 Speaker 3: unbelievably large numbers of these really small sellers, and part 324 00:18:22,560 --> 00:18:25,119 Speaker 3: of and you know, and this and this, this locks 325 00:18:25,160 --> 00:18:26,639 Speaker 3: all of these people into the middlemen. The middle man 326 00:18:26,680 --> 00:18:29,200 Speaker 3: can set the prices. The middlemen set the prices incredibly low, 327 00:18:29,200 --> 00:18:31,280 Speaker 3: and they're locked in because they don't have another distribution 328 00:18:31,359 --> 00:18:33,359 Speaker 3: method because the only thing they can do is sell 329 00:18:33,440 --> 00:18:37,800 Speaker 3: to these like agricultural midleman companies. The companies like above them, 330 00:18:37,800 --> 00:18:40,480 Speaker 3: like your grocery companies are like actual milk company who 331 00:18:40,520 --> 00:18:43,680 Speaker 3: packages the milk. They love this stuff because it means 332 00:18:43,720 --> 00:18:47,000 Speaker 3: that they don't have to like pay the farmers. They 333 00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:49,080 Speaker 3: can just buy like the goods directly. They don't have 334 00:18:49,119 --> 00:18:50,639 Speaker 3: to deal with like employment stuff, and they don't have 335 00:18:50,680 --> 00:18:52,640 Speaker 3: to deal with quality control too because they can pass 336 00:18:52,680 --> 00:18:55,120 Speaker 3: that on to the middlemen. Now, something else we talked 337 00:18:55,160 --> 00:18:57,960 Speaker 3: about in our anti work Lying Flat episodes like three 338 00:18:58,040 --> 00:19:03,280 Speaker 3: years ago, is that China has these like far like 339 00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:06,040 Speaker 3: rural influencers. That was it was like a huge wave 340 00:19:06,240 --> 00:19:08,159 Speaker 3: of these people that sort of like image you might 341 00:19:08,200 --> 00:19:10,359 Speaker 3: actually have seen you've seen the videos of just like 342 00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:14,800 Speaker 3: someone in rural China like cutting wood or something. Oh yeah, 343 00:19:14,840 --> 00:19:21,600 Speaker 3: totally totally. Yeah. So those those things, we were like, Okay, 344 00:19:21,680 --> 00:19:24,160 Speaker 3: the US catches up the stuff on the Chinese internet 345 00:19:24,280 --> 00:19:29,399 Speaker 3: like usually several years after like happened there, and that 346 00:19:29,400 --> 00:19:32,399 Speaker 3: makes sense. Yeah. And the next thing in line after 347 00:19:32,440 --> 00:19:34,679 Speaker 3: the original sort of ural influencer waves was these like 348 00:19:34,920 --> 00:19:37,879 Speaker 3: was this wave of like farmer influencers and these people 349 00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:41,119 Speaker 3: they're using like a different Chinese like it's like another 350 00:19:41,160 --> 00:19:43,920 Speaker 3: it's like another tich Dot clone basically, and they're doing 351 00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:47,159 Speaker 3: the thing that they're doing is okay. So you you know, 352 00:19:47,200 --> 00:19:50,160 Speaker 3: you have your regular influencer who's trying to sell you 353 00:19:50,240 --> 00:19:53,679 Speaker 3: like the image of rural life, right, and then you 354 00:19:53,720 --> 00:19:55,639 Speaker 3: have the farmer influencers who are trying to sell you 355 00:19:55,680 --> 00:19:58,520 Speaker 3: the image of rural life and also their potatoes. And 356 00:19:58,560 --> 00:20:00,200 Speaker 3: this is this is like the marketing strategy. This is 357 00:20:00,280 --> 00:20:02,879 Speaker 3: this is how you can skip the middlemen and like 358 00:20:02,960 --> 00:20:06,560 Speaker 3: actually sell your fruit is by becoming an influencer. Which 359 00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:10,840 Speaker 3: it's so cursed. It's so cursed. I hate it so much. 360 00:20:11,240 --> 00:20:15,439 Speaker 4: That is kind of dystopian. It's just the constant, the 361 00:20:15,480 --> 00:20:16,520 Speaker 4: constant performance. 362 00:20:17,160 --> 00:20:19,080 Speaker 3: Yeah. But the problem is that the alternative to it 363 00:20:19,160 --> 00:20:22,720 Speaker 3: is even worse because PDD realizes this and that they're 364 00:20:22,760 --> 00:20:25,120 Speaker 3: looking at these markets and they're like, hold on, these 365 00:20:25,160 --> 00:20:28,080 Speaker 3: farmers are already selling their goods for like next to nothing. 366 00:20:28,440 --> 00:20:31,719 Speaker 3: If we come in, pay them a bit better, use 367 00:20:31,760 --> 00:20:33,800 Speaker 3: our text or like our tech money to our text 368 00:20:33,800 --> 00:20:36,000 Speaker 3: startup money. They have an enormous amount of tex startup money. 369 00:20:36,200 --> 00:20:39,200 Speaker 3: If we use that text startup money to give them rebates, 370 00:20:39,480 --> 00:20:41,400 Speaker 3: we can do things that like you know, we can 371 00:20:41,480 --> 00:20:46,479 Speaker 3: not charge them commission, right, And if we can do this, 372 00:20:46,560 --> 00:20:49,080 Speaker 3: we can turn around and sell these fruits for like 373 00:20:49,520 --> 00:20:53,440 Speaker 3: zero dollars. Zero dollars is slight exaggeration, but when I like, 374 00:20:53,440 --> 00:20:56,320 Speaker 3: they're selling these fruits for an are unbelievably cheap, Like 375 00:20:56,359 --> 00:20:58,800 Speaker 3: we are talking ten mangos for a dollar and thirty 376 00:20:58,840 --> 00:21:03,960 Speaker 3: nine cents, which is like a steal, outrageous, right, And 377 00:21:04,520 --> 00:21:07,920 Speaker 3: you know this is this is incredibly successful. What they're 378 00:21:07,960 --> 00:21:10,919 Speaker 3: doing basically is a giant version of the Amazon gambit. Right, 379 00:21:10,960 --> 00:21:13,119 Speaker 3: they're eating shit and taking losses to sell all of 380 00:21:13,119 --> 00:21:15,520 Speaker 3: this stuff, although they're losing less money than you'd think, 381 00:21:16,080 --> 00:21:19,200 Speaker 3: Like the actual price of these goods is already so low, 382 00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:21,240 Speaker 3: and we're gonna come back to that too, because that's 383 00:21:21,280 --> 00:21:23,200 Speaker 3: an aspect of what's so messed up about this whole thing. 384 00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:25,760 Speaker 3: But you know, so they eat shit that takes some losses, 385 00:21:26,600 --> 00:21:31,400 Speaker 3: but they really really quickly build market share. So this 386 00:21:31,440 --> 00:21:34,080 Speaker 3: is a very very short smart strategy because it's not 387 00:21:34,160 --> 00:21:36,879 Speaker 3: just in the sort of real market. China has a 388 00:21:36,920 --> 00:21:39,560 Speaker 3: shit ton of like small and medium sized producers that 389 00:21:39,600 --> 00:21:42,359 Speaker 3: make a whole bunch of things, or like guy with 390 00:21:42,440 --> 00:21:47,320 Speaker 3: one factory person doing like craft production stuff. And PD's 391 00:21:47,400 --> 00:21:50,159 Speaker 3: plan is to pull together all of these sellers like this, 392 00:21:50,359 --> 00:21:53,480 Speaker 3: this whole all all of these people from different markets 393 00:21:53,640 --> 00:21:57,600 Speaker 3: into just one giant, like one giant like market that 394 00:21:57,640 --> 00:22:01,440 Speaker 3: they control now importantly, unlike Amazon, and this is like 395 00:22:01,480 --> 00:22:04,440 Speaker 3: ali Baba too, because Ali Baba works on a fairly 396 00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:07,240 Speaker 3: similar model to well, okay, in a lot of ways, 397 00:22:07,320 --> 00:22:09,800 Speaker 3: is a similar model to Amazon. It's not identical. But 398 00:22:10,359 --> 00:22:15,200 Speaker 3: unlike those two companies, PDD doesn't run their own logistics network. 399 00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:17,840 Speaker 3: It's all it's all third party. Like the shipping and 400 00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:19,680 Speaker 3: all that shit is done by is done through third 401 00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:23,920 Speaker 3: party logistics stuff. So like their shipping companies, they don't 402 00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:27,679 Speaker 3: own warehouses like that stuff, you know, what they're what 403 00:22:27,720 --> 00:22:30,240 Speaker 3: they do instead is they use the shipping companies and 404 00:22:30,280 --> 00:22:32,680 Speaker 3: warehouses that were developed in like the earlier parts of 405 00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:35,120 Speaker 3: the Chinese tech boom, and they're able to just use 406 00:22:35,160 --> 00:22:39,040 Speaker 3: that infrastructure to you know, to to ship all their 407 00:22:39,040 --> 00:22:41,200 Speaker 3: stuff around. And this means that the company is extremely 408 00:22:41,280 --> 00:22:44,600 Speaker 3: lean in the sense that like they don't have a 409 00:22:44,600 --> 00:22:46,640 Speaker 3: lot of physical assets like they know, and this means 410 00:22:46,680 --> 00:22:48,399 Speaker 3: they don't have to deal with labor costs or like 411 00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:51,119 Speaker 3: the logistics problems of actually having to like you know, 412 00:22:51,160 --> 00:22:55,399 Speaker 3: of actually having employees packing boxes and making things they're 413 00:22:55,520 --> 00:22:58,439 Speaker 3: just an app. It's it's it's well, they're they're like 414 00:22:58,520 --> 00:23:01,520 Speaker 3: the original model of Uber in some sense, right where 415 00:23:01,560 --> 00:23:04,120 Speaker 3: like you don't like Uber doesn't fucking own or wasn't 416 00:23:04,119 --> 00:23:07,000 Speaker 3: supposed to be owning cars. I mean, I guess Uber's 417 00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:08,399 Speaker 3: a bad example because they were trying to do the 418 00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:12,240 Speaker 3: automated car thing, but that was a fiasco. But you know, 419 00:23:12,320 --> 00:23:15,679 Speaker 3: the thing that PDD makes is just an app, but 420 00:23:15,840 --> 00:23:18,120 Speaker 3: it's it's an incredibly addictive app, like it's it's it's 421 00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:21,720 Speaker 3: a shopping gotcha game, which is like maybe the worst 422 00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:23,840 Speaker 3: sentence in the history of the human language. 423 00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:29,520 Speaker 4: And this was like this was around the time, like 424 00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:32,800 Speaker 4: I want to say, like tennish years ago, give or 425 00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:36,800 Speaker 4: take a few years, where like micro transactions were becoming massive, 426 00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:40,320 Speaker 4: like all, like it took over gaming, It took over 427 00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:44,360 Speaker 4: so many parts of just being online, It took over apps, 428 00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:47,439 Speaker 4: like it just it just infected everything, and we luckily 429 00:23:47,560 --> 00:23:51,520 Speaker 4: kind of pushed back on some some of that. We're 430 00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:54,480 Speaker 4: still not all of it, but like there was definitely 431 00:23:54,560 --> 00:23:57,280 Speaker 4: some some degree of like, oh well, we are simply 432 00:23:57,280 --> 00:23:59,359 Speaker 4: not going to be buying all of these games if 433 00:23:59,359 --> 00:24:02,360 Speaker 4: it's just full of like micro transaction bullshit, and then 434 00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:04,440 Speaker 4: Fortnite took over and we're back and well again. 435 00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:08,320 Speaker 3: But whatever. Actually, it's it's pretty funny. China kind of recently, 436 00:24:08,359 --> 00:24:11,040 Speaker 3: the Chinese government like did a crackdown on like loop 437 00:24:11,080 --> 00:24:13,800 Speaker 3: boxes and stuff because they were some of some of 438 00:24:13,800 --> 00:24:15,719 Speaker 3: the some of the regulations they put in place a nuts, 439 00:24:15,800 --> 00:24:17,960 Speaker 3: but some of it was like you can't sell loop 440 00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:21,919 Speaker 3: you can't sell gambling the children. Yeah, and this caused 441 00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:24,200 Speaker 3: like it's funny because they're kind of walking it back 442 00:24:24,280 --> 00:24:27,480 Speaker 3: now because it hurt their gaming market so much. They're like, well, shit, okay, 443 00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:30,720 Speaker 3: we have to we need those kids. Yeah, like that's 444 00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:33,919 Speaker 3: the only way to make money. Yeah, but you know, 445 00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:36,920 Speaker 3: but but PDDs like brilliant. They're sort of like the 446 00:24:37,119 --> 00:24:40,439 Speaker 3: the the absolutely evil shit that they realized is like 447 00:24:40,480 --> 00:24:42,480 Speaker 3: we can just we can just do this for shopping. 448 00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:44,640 Speaker 3: And so like the moment you log in, right, there's 449 00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:46,919 Speaker 3: like these flash deals and there's these group deals and 450 00:24:47,080 --> 00:24:49,119 Speaker 3: this is the thing that the group deals are the 451 00:24:49,119 --> 00:24:52,480 Speaker 3: thing that that PDD is based around. So the way 452 00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:54,679 Speaker 3: it works is you get these group deals and so 453 00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:57,080 Speaker 3: you get a link and you send it to people, 454 00:24:57,080 --> 00:24:58,720 Speaker 3: and the more people click on the link to buy 455 00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:02,399 Speaker 3: the thing, the cheaper it becomes. So, and then you 456 00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:04,400 Speaker 3: send the links over we Chat, which is the curve 457 00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:07,080 Speaker 3: of like catch all Chinese messenger or like social media 458 00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:09,600 Speaker 3: app that everyone uses to like talk to their boomer parents. 459 00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:12,560 Speaker 3: And so the thing that your boomer parents are doing 460 00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:15,639 Speaker 3: is they're sending these shopping links to each other. And 461 00:25:16,520 --> 00:25:19,240 Speaker 3: you know, and the the more like the more people 462 00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:21,080 Speaker 3: click on these links, the cheaper the good becomes. So 463 00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:22,679 Speaker 3: what was the more people are buying it, the more 464 00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:25,000 Speaker 3: people you rope into buying stuff from this app, the 465 00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:28,080 Speaker 3: cheaper it is, and the more deals you get, you 466 00:25:28,119 --> 00:25:30,280 Speaker 3: get things like they'll just like give you like quote 467 00:25:30,359 --> 00:25:33,760 Speaker 3: unquote free money if you spend enough money in like 468 00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:36,760 Speaker 3: basically like in the same way that like micro transaction 469 00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:38,360 Speaker 3: works right where it's like, you know, in a game, 470 00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:40,159 Speaker 3: it's like if you play the x number of games, 471 00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:42,480 Speaker 3: will give you like in game currency, whereas this is 472 00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:44,640 Speaker 3: just like will literally give you money, you'll like send 473 00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:48,480 Speaker 3: things to you. God, that sounds like hell, it's awful. 474 00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:53,479 Speaker 3: It's so bad, and very importantly right, it's this giant 475 00:25:53,560 --> 00:25:55,640 Speaker 3: loop that it not only gets people to spend money, 476 00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:57,520 Speaker 3: but it gets people to bring their friends in because 477 00:25:57,520 --> 00:25:58,800 Speaker 3: you have to bring your friends in to get the 478 00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:01,159 Speaker 3: group deals, so everything gets cheap and cheaper, and the 479 00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:04,639 Speaker 3: tactics they use are absolutely wild. They get in trouble 480 00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:07,639 Speaker 3: in twenty twenty one for this promotion called Bargain for 481 00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:10,760 Speaker 3: Free Goods, where you'd get a link and the claim 482 00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:12,359 Speaker 3: was that if enough people clicked it, you would get 483 00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:15,520 Speaker 3: the good for free. And so this guy tried to 484 00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:17,000 Speaker 3: do it, but he couldn't. He can only get it 485 00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:19,320 Speaker 3: two point nine percent of the cost. So we sued 486 00:26:19,359 --> 00:26:23,880 Speaker 3: them for false advertising and the claim got thrown out, 487 00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:28,040 Speaker 3: but the company had to pay him like money, so 488 00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:29,640 Speaker 3: like this is the kind of shit that they're doing. 489 00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:34,520 Speaker 3: WeChat actually like blocked their links for a while because, 490 00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:38,240 Speaker 3: you know, cause like some enormous portion of messages suddenly 491 00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:40,359 Speaker 3: we're just like these people sending these spam links to 492 00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:42,240 Speaker 3: like every single person they know, trying to get them 493 00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:46,840 Speaker 3: to buy like a fucking toothbrush so that your toothbrushes 494 00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:50,920 Speaker 3: can be cheaper. Right. But eventually we Chat kind of like, 495 00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:54,520 Speaker 3: you know, we Chat gives up and they start like 496 00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:58,400 Speaker 3: allying more with PDD. I mean, there's a whole there's 497 00:26:58,440 --> 00:27:00,439 Speaker 3: a whole complicated story. I'm not gonna get to hear 498 00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:03,880 Speaker 3: about like the like China's really really ferocious like tech 499 00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:07,479 Speaker 3: company wars because like in the US, you know, like 500 00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:10,320 Speaker 3: our tech monopolies are relatively stable, right, Like they've sort 501 00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:13,240 Speaker 3: of portioned up the Internet into or and like distribution 502 00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:17,640 Speaker 3: and stuff into just like basically like local monopolies, right, 503 00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:20,240 Speaker 3: Like like Google is like the only search engine company. 504 00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:23,479 Speaker 3: There's there's basically no competition there, right, Like there's some 505 00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:25,840 Speaker 3: competition in terms of social media, but even then it's 506 00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:28,600 Speaker 3: like and it's not like the Chinese version words like 507 00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:33,800 Speaker 3: unbelievably ferocious competition and sometimes they cooperate, but yeah, you know, 508 00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:37,800 Speaker 3: it's it's really fierce. And PDDs. You know the thing 509 00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:41,240 Speaker 3: that they do, right is they pair this app stuff 510 00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:44,679 Speaker 3: with direct to consumer sales, and PDT is really the 511 00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:49,480 Speaker 3: pioneers of this. She In and okay, so I I 512 00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:52,879 Speaker 3: she In is that fucking fast fashioned clothing company. I 513 00:27:53,359 --> 00:27:57,240 Speaker 3: learned today that it is actually pronounced she In because 514 00:27:57,600 --> 00:28:02,160 Speaker 3: the name of the thing is she In, like sa 515 00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:07,080 Speaker 3: she she and then she's like she's in. Yeah, I 516 00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:12,040 Speaker 3: hate it so much. I'm so sad. I I mean 517 00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:13,879 Speaker 3: I feel slightly better because like I kept trying to 518 00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:16,160 Speaker 3: read it in Chinese. It's like this doesn't make any sense, 519 00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:18,560 Speaker 3: Like it's just bafflely it doesn't and it's like, oh no, 520 00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:24,879 Speaker 3: it's because it's in English. Yeah, But BDD is the 521 00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:28,359 Speaker 3: precursor of Shean's like strategy, right, like they're they're the 522 00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:31,960 Speaker 3: originators of this, except they're you know, they're what they're 523 00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:33,879 Speaker 3: doing basically, it's it's a fact. It's kind of like 524 00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:37,840 Speaker 3: drop shipping, but you know, the sales are being pushed 525 00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:40,400 Speaker 3: by these these sort of gamified app stuff, and this 526 00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:42,920 Speaker 3: means they have this like real time supply management system 527 00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:46,760 Speaker 3: that tells producers like like they can like they go 528 00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:49,040 Speaker 3: down and like tell their sellers like what to produce 529 00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:53,120 Speaker 3: more of based on like app sales. So you know, 530 00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:54,760 Speaker 3: like the way it works is you start off with 531 00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:56,880 Speaker 3: a small it's like a small number of things, and 532 00:28:56,880 --> 00:28:58,880 Speaker 3: then you get ads to push that those like fucking 533 00:28:59,040 --> 00:29:03,200 Speaker 3: toothbrushes or whatever. And then as like sales wramp up, 534 00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:05,760 Speaker 3: you ramp up productions. You can ship people more toothbrushes. 535 00:29:07,080 --> 00:29:09,280 Speaker 3: Now do you know who else will ship you toothbrushes 536 00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:13,000 Speaker 3: that will probably be better quality than the PDD tooth pressure? 537 00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:15,800 Speaker 4: No, we can we can guarantee all of our sponsors 538 00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:19,200 Speaker 4: have only the top quality toothbrushes. That is, that is 539 00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:21,920 Speaker 4: what we call the cool Zone guarantee. Go do toothbrush 540 00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:25,680 Speaker 4: dot com and put in the keyword MIA for a 541 00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:28,360 Speaker 4: ten percent off on your TOLF of the lines. 542 00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:43,960 Speaker 3: Please don't do this, So all right, D and D 543 00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:50,200 Speaker 3: just it takes rural China by storm. Sure it sounds convenient, 544 00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:54,760 Speaker 3: like yeah for some panil and it's really really cheap, 545 00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:57,280 Speaker 3: is the thing, right, And the thing about rural China 546 00:29:57,360 --> 00:30:00,920 Speaker 3: is you're dealing with a level of poverty that like 547 00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:08,400 Speaker 3: is like almost like it's not unimaginable in the US, 548 00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:15,680 Speaker 3: but it's like unbelievable, Like it's something that like like 549 00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:21,840 Speaker 3: we don't really have it in the same way because okay, 550 00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:23,600 Speaker 3: so like an example of the kind of stuff we're 551 00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:26,480 Speaker 3: dealing with, right, Like, so, China's GDP per capita in 552 00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:29,560 Speaker 3: like the sixties was lower than hades. Right, this is 553 00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:32,440 Speaker 3: an unbelievably poor country. And there are there are places 554 00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:36,719 Speaker 3: in real China that are still like basically not quite 555 00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:41,960 Speaker 3: that poor, but are like unbelievably poor in ways that like, 556 00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:46,080 Speaker 3: you know, we're talking about people who are like people 557 00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:48,440 Speaker 3: who are doing kind of well in these regions, are 558 00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:52,360 Speaker 3: making seven hundred dollars a month. Like that's like on 559 00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:54,560 Speaker 3: a good month, right, they're making seven hundred dollars a month, 560 00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:57,280 Speaker 3: which is that's eight four hundred dollars a year. And 561 00:30:57,600 --> 00:31:00,200 Speaker 3: that's that's that's if you have twelve good months, right, 562 00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:02,520 Speaker 3: if you have normal months, it's more like six thousand 563 00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:05,160 Speaker 3: dollars a year. And so you know, and when when 564 00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:07,920 Speaker 3: when you're in a place where people are using stuff 565 00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:10,440 Speaker 3: like this, and again that's someone who like has a 566 00:31:10,560 --> 00:31:15,000 Speaker 3: job full time is making like six thousand dollars a year, 567 00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:18,920 Speaker 3: and so people use PDD to shop because it's incredibly 568 00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:21,880 Speaker 3: cheap and it's also addictive. And when I say cheap, 569 00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:23,840 Speaker 3: like we're talking like two dollars for a pair of 570 00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:28,480 Speaker 3: jeenes cheap, right, And like that's that's also like cheap 571 00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:31,280 Speaker 3: and you on too. It's like unbelievably low prices. 572 00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:33,280 Speaker 4: I mean this, this kind of this kind of reminds 573 00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:37,720 Speaker 4: me a little bit of that recent Tucker Carlson. Russia 574 00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:41,440 Speaker 4: is great actually media stunt. Oh yeah, look, all of 575 00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:45,560 Speaker 4: these groceries only cost one hundred dollars in American currency, 576 00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:48,720 Speaker 4: and it's like Yeah, because they're getting paid like two 577 00:31:48,840 --> 00:31:51,560 Speaker 4: hundred dollars like a week, like they're not they're not 578 00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:55,120 Speaker 4: taking home very much money, so all of the costs 579 00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:57,800 Speaker 4: like slide very differently, Like you can't just compare this 580 00:31:57,840 --> 00:31:58,400 Speaker 4: one to one. 581 00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:02,040 Speaker 3: Yeah. Also, the thing I will say about PDD is 582 00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:06,360 Speaker 3: that their prices are unbelievably low by Chinese standards, like 583 00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:08,920 Speaker 3: this is this is also why they look so low 584 00:32:09,040 --> 00:32:10,720 Speaker 3: by American standards too, is that these are these are 585 00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:13,440 Speaker 3: low by Chinese standards, and because they're so low by 586 00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:17,200 Speaker 3: Chinese standards, like people, people buy stuff from it. The 587 00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:19,320 Speaker 3: cost of this is that the stuff they're selling is 588 00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:23,240 Speaker 3: really cheap. I mean, the other cost is the unbelievable 589 00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:25,640 Speaker 3: exploitation of the Chinese working class. But you know, we'll 590 00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:27,200 Speaker 3: get to that. We'll get to that next episode. The 591 00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:30,040 Speaker 3: main cost of the stuff being cheap is that the 592 00:32:30,040 --> 00:32:33,760 Speaker 3: stuff they buy like sucks ass like literally literally this 593 00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:36,720 Speaker 3: only the CEO talks about is that their gambit is that, Okay, 594 00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:39,560 Speaker 3: we'll ship you ten mangos for for like a dollar 595 00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:42,040 Speaker 3: thirty nine. Two of them will be rotten, but that 596 00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:45,840 Speaker 3: means you still get eight mangos. That we're still unbelievable, 597 00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:47,920 Speaker 3: Like that's the thing, and like, you know, the stuff 598 00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:50,920 Speaker 3: that they get like sucks. Here's from the Chinese media 599 00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:53,200 Speaker 3: outlet sixth Tone, which has done a lot of good 600 00:32:53,280 --> 00:32:57,760 Speaker 3: coverage of PDD. They they used to be better. They're 601 00:32:57,840 --> 00:33:02,120 Speaker 3: like the kind of like left like stay media outlet. 602 00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:05,000 Speaker 3: They used to be better, and then their staff got 603 00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:08,320 Speaker 3: run out because they they went they walked too close 604 00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:11,240 Speaker 3: to the line. So but here's here, here's what here's 605 00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:13,360 Speaker 3: they've done a lot of they because the most of 606 00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:16,440 Speaker 3: the PDD coverage came from before their people got run out. 607 00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:20,000 Speaker 3: So quote. Following the I p O, a number of 608 00:33:20,040 --> 00:33:23,680 Speaker 3: purchase Series A purchases allegedly bought from PDD we're shared online, 609 00:33:23,720 --> 00:33:26,400 Speaker 3: including a hair dryer that broke out in flames after 610 00:33:26,440 --> 00:33:32,040 Speaker 3: it was switched on, a power bake. Hey, that also 611 00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:33,720 Speaker 3: happens in America. Don't worry. 612 00:33:34,080 --> 00:33:36,440 Speaker 4: I know you're like, I know you're like, oh, I'm 613 00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:38,840 Speaker 4: missing out on all these great deals, all these great products. 614 00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:40,960 Speaker 3: Not true. This could also happen in the States. 615 00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:41,640 Speaker 5: Yep. 616 00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:46,360 Speaker 3: There's another one where they had a power bank and 617 00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:48,120 Speaker 3: someone ordered it and they came and it was just 618 00:33:48,280 --> 00:33:50,080 Speaker 3: four triple A batteries and a container. 619 00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:54,960 Speaker 4: That's funny. That's good, that's a good bit. That's yeah, 620 00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:55,880 Speaker 4: that's pretty good. 621 00:33:55,960 --> 00:33:57,640 Speaker 3: You know, there's stuff like like one of one like 622 00:33:57,680 --> 00:33:59,840 Speaker 3: sixth time was interviewing people in real areas you bost off. 623 00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:01,200 Speaker 3: They were like, yeah, I brought it. I bought a 624 00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:03,520 Speaker 3: fishing rod for like two bucks and it was broken. 625 00:34:03,640 --> 00:34:06,120 Speaker 3: I bought a pair of shoes and it literally fell 626 00:34:06,120 --> 00:34:08,800 Speaker 3: apart after three days. Sot me. 627 00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:12,960 Speaker 4: I have complicated feelings on this because I think there 628 00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:17,880 Speaker 4: is a place for gambling in purchases. If if, for example, 629 00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:22,320 Speaker 4: on Amazon, if every fourth product you bought there was 630 00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:28,440 Speaker 4: a completely like defective, like purposely like lower quality version, 631 00:34:28,840 --> 00:34:30,319 Speaker 4: I think that would be a good for the world. 632 00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:33,040 Speaker 4: We would have probably we would have less people using Amazon, 633 00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:35,920 Speaker 4: and you would kind of get slightly punished. So I 634 00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:39,480 Speaker 4: think this actually could be a good thing if used correctly, 635 00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:43,280 Speaker 4: where we where we purposely sabotage every like fourth person 636 00:34:43,600 --> 00:34:45,480 Speaker 4: who buys anything online. 637 00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:48,600 Speaker 3: But the problem is that people fucking love gambling like that. 638 00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:51,120 Speaker 3: That's that's just gonna make people do more because now 639 00:34:51,160 --> 00:34:53,040 Speaker 3: there's more of a downside if we're trying to get 640 00:34:53,080 --> 00:34:58,359 Speaker 3: your fucking deal. So I mean, and this is the thing, right, 641 00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:00,520 Speaker 3: Like you're rolling the dice every time every time you 642 00:35:00,560 --> 00:35:01,960 Speaker 3: take a you. 643 00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:05,360 Speaker 4: Order like an election generator online and they send you 644 00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:08,840 Speaker 4: a double a. Oh my god, it'd be so funny funny. 645 00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:11,800 Speaker 3: Well, I mean, now, hey, you too can now shop 646 00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:16,440 Speaker 3: on Temu. You too could experience getting shipped just fucking bullshit. 647 00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:19,560 Speaker 4: You order some nice Hawaiian coffee and they send you 648 00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:22,680 Speaker 4: some like camameo. Oh god, devastating. 649 00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:27,400 Speaker 3: So this this whole thing of you buy stuff that 650 00:35:27,520 --> 00:35:30,520 Speaker 3: sucks or doesn't work. And the fact that PDD starts 651 00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:33,120 Speaker 3: in rural China means that, like initially there's this like 652 00:35:33,239 --> 00:35:36,319 Speaker 3: real class element about how who uses PDD. It's seen 653 00:35:36,360 --> 00:35:39,399 Speaker 3: as like the site for poor and gullible people who 654 00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:42,319 Speaker 3: don't care about quality. Yeah, it's like it's the place 655 00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:44,960 Speaker 3: where lower class people shop. Yeah sure, yeah, And well 656 00:35:45,200 --> 00:35:48,920 Speaker 3: that stops being true kind of because everyone starts using it. 657 00:35:49,520 --> 00:35:52,319 Speaker 3: But Comma, the other problem they have is that it 658 00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:55,360 Speaker 3: is absolutely rife with kind of fit products. Right after 659 00:35:55,440 --> 00:35:57,440 Speaker 3: they go public in twenty eighteen, there's like a Chinese 660 00:35:57,480 --> 00:36:00,000 Speaker 3: state investigation into the sale of their kind of fit product, 661 00:36:00,600 --> 00:36:03,800 Speaker 3: and pdd's response is like, Wow, we're just a marketplace, 662 00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:05,480 Speaker 3: anyone can sell on it. How are we supposed to 663 00:36:05,480 --> 00:36:09,440 Speaker 3: control who makes counterfeit stuff? But this is this is 664 00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:11,200 Speaker 3: actually like it gets to a kind of like cultural 665 00:36:11,239 --> 00:36:13,319 Speaker 3: thing where you know, what is one of the things 666 00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:14,879 Speaker 3: that happens in world trying. This happens in a lot 667 00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:19,280 Speaker 3: of places where like almost everyone is wearing like clothes 668 00:36:19,440 --> 00:36:22,200 Speaker 3: that are like knockoff brand stuff because it's just the 669 00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:25,120 Speaker 3: cheapest clothes and like that's that's the kind of clothes 670 00:36:25,160 --> 00:36:28,560 Speaker 3: that's being made that you can afford if you're you know, 671 00:36:28,680 --> 00:36:30,560 Speaker 3: like you're you're you're you're trying to sort of make 672 00:36:30,600 --> 00:36:33,040 Speaker 3: it like in World China, so you get like, you know, 673 00:36:33,080 --> 00:36:34,759 Speaker 3: you have like entire villages where you walk in and 674 00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:40,040 Speaker 3: everyone's wearing like like niaky and like a dietis or 675 00:36:40,080 --> 00:36:45,360 Speaker 3: something like it's like nice. This stuff gets really wild, 676 00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:50,040 Speaker 3: really fast. So here's from that that Sedging interview with 677 00:36:50,200 --> 00:36:54,000 Speaker 3: Colin Huang again. So here's here's a catching it. It's 678 00:36:54,200 --> 00:36:57,080 Speaker 3: a Chinese media outlet, so they're their interviewer. One of 679 00:36:57,120 --> 00:36:59,440 Speaker 3: the best selling products on PDD is a bottle of 680 00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:03,080 Speaker 3: Affidas priced at twenty seven point eighty on that is 681 00:37:03,840 --> 00:37:08,280 Speaker 3: like three almost four dollars with a total of four 682 00:37:08,320 --> 00:37:12,880 Speaker 3: point seven million orders sold. Do you think this medicine 683 00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:17,800 Speaker 3: might be real? Here's the CEO. First, of all, medicines 684 00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:21,880 Speaker 3: are healthcare products sold on pdd's platform must have national 685 00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:27,360 Speaker 3: certification marks. Secondly, the gross profit margin of healthcare products 686 00:37:27,440 --> 00:37:30,520 Speaker 3: is already extremely high, just like facial mass. Do you 687 00:37:30,560 --> 00:37:35,840 Speaker 3: think the two hundred yond facial max is useful? So again, again, 688 00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:39,080 Speaker 3: what is happening here is that like they have sold 689 00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:45,360 Speaker 3: like one point four point seven million orders of of 690 00:37:45,520 --> 00:37:48,879 Speaker 3: like a fake aphrodisiac. And when the CEO is asked 691 00:37:48,920 --> 00:37:51,200 Speaker 3: about his response, it's like, well, but who could really 692 00:37:51,239 --> 00:37:52,959 Speaker 3: say if any health products work? 693 00:37:53,160 --> 00:37:56,719 Speaker 4: Like, wow, that is a pretty funny bit. I mean, 694 00:37:57,160 --> 00:37:59,920 Speaker 4: it sucks that people, the poor people are losing money, but. 695 00:38:00,440 --> 00:38:04,080 Speaker 3: Well, to be fair, be fair, pretty fine if you 696 00:38:04,160 --> 00:38:09,200 Speaker 3: are trying to like buy an afrodisiac, I don't really care. Sure, 697 00:38:09,440 --> 00:38:10,759 Speaker 3: sure yeah, but like you know, so part of it, 698 00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:12,799 Speaker 3: like they're selling like fake hack medicines. This is like 699 00:38:12,800 --> 00:38:16,080 Speaker 3: the Chinese version of the American like grift, like right 700 00:38:16,120 --> 00:38:17,760 Speaker 3: wing grift like supplement market. 701 00:38:18,160 --> 00:38:21,239 Speaker 4: Yeah yeah, yeah, it's the brain pills to help your 702 00:38:21,520 --> 00:38:22,560 Speaker 4: libido or whatever. 703 00:38:22,920 --> 00:38:26,520 Speaker 3: Yeah, but this also gets a lot darker. One of 704 00:38:26,560 --> 00:38:28,320 Speaker 3: the there's one of the stories that kind of like 705 00:38:28,400 --> 00:38:30,879 Speaker 3: made the rounds of Chinese social media that six Tone 706 00:38:30,920 --> 00:38:36,400 Speaker 3: reports on is that people found PDD like advertising like 707 00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:42,520 Speaker 3: sleep medicine as date rape drugs. Ah yeah, fucking bleak. 708 00:38:43,440 --> 00:38:45,160 Speaker 3: There's like fuck and that's the thing. There's like no 709 00:38:45,800 --> 00:38:48,920 Speaker 3: fucking content moderation on this, right, so people just do 710 00:38:49,080 --> 00:38:52,960 Speaker 3: that shit and it really sucks. But on their hand, 711 00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:56,799 Speaker 3: none of the constant bad press like stop pdd's rise, right, 712 00:38:57,400 --> 00:39:01,719 Speaker 3: and now it is time to leave Colin Huang soil. 713 00:39:01,880 --> 00:39:05,440 Speaker 3: Until about phil twenty twenty, pdd's rise was synonymous with 714 00:39:05,480 --> 00:39:08,640 Speaker 3: its CEO, Colin Huang, But in mid twenty twenty, Huang 715 00:39:08,719 --> 00:39:12,240 Speaker 3: resigned as the CEO and kind of like exited public 716 00:39:12,280 --> 00:39:15,239 Speaker 3: life effectively, like not entirely. We kind of like he 717 00:39:15,360 --> 00:39:17,440 Speaker 3: like took he like he resigned a CEO, and then 718 00:39:17,480 --> 00:39:19,960 Speaker 3: twenty twenty one he resigns as like a chairman of 719 00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:21,840 Speaker 3: the board and he's like, you know, he's doing this 720 00:39:21,920 --> 00:39:25,239 Speaker 3: like philanthropic stuff instead, and he's you know, he's doing 721 00:39:25,280 --> 00:39:29,319 Speaker 3: his like post CEO life thing, right, And we've never 722 00:39:29,400 --> 00:39:32,799 Speaker 3: gotten a good answer as to why he stepped down, 723 00:39:33,080 --> 00:39:36,880 Speaker 3: but I have a theory, and I think my theory's 724 00:39:36,920 --> 00:39:40,520 Speaker 3: pretty good. And also it goes into have I, Garrison, 725 00:39:40,719 --> 00:39:42,960 Speaker 3: have I explained to you the thing about I don't 726 00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:45,480 Speaker 3: remember if I've done it? On this show talked about 727 00:39:45,600 --> 00:39:50,440 Speaker 3: the Chinese paid a loan app thing, M I don't think. 728 00:39:50,480 --> 00:39:55,279 Speaker 3: So okay, So all right, we are now going to 729 00:39:55,320 --> 00:39:57,560 Speaker 3: do We're gonna close this episode out on one of 730 00:39:57,640 --> 00:40:03,200 Speaker 3: the most absolutely insane moments of Chinese internet history. So okay. 731 00:40:03,200 --> 00:40:05,040 Speaker 3: One of the things that happens in the Chinese tech 732 00:40:05,080 --> 00:40:07,320 Speaker 3: market in the late twenty tens and early twenty twenties 733 00:40:07,400 --> 00:40:11,120 Speaker 3: is this mass proliferation of app based payda loans. This 734 00:40:11,360 --> 00:40:14,040 Speaker 3: is one of the worst things I have ever seen. 735 00:40:14,760 --> 00:40:18,400 Speaker 3: What effectively happens is that around like twenty fourteen twenty fifteen, 736 00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:21,640 Speaker 3: a bunch of Chinese tech companies, especially like delivery companies 737 00:40:21,719 --> 00:40:23,560 Speaker 3: like sort of like China's version of grub, Public, Door, 738 00:40:23,640 --> 00:40:26,840 Speaker 3: Dash and Ali Baba, They're like Amazon equivalent, gets in 739 00:40:26,880 --> 00:40:28,879 Speaker 3: it too, and these people realize that they can start 740 00:40:28,920 --> 00:40:32,560 Speaker 3: their own payment platforms. So basically like all these companies 741 00:40:32,560 --> 00:40:35,600 Speaker 3: are making their own version of PayPal. But then they 742 00:40:35,680 --> 00:40:39,239 Speaker 3: realize that they can use these platforms to give out 743 00:40:39,239 --> 00:40:43,200 Speaker 3: Payda loans so that you can in one app take 744 00:40:43,239 --> 00:40:47,000 Speaker 3: out a payday loan to order delivery, or you can 745 00:40:47,040 --> 00:40:50,080 Speaker 3: in one app take out a payday loan to buyshit 746 00:40:50,160 --> 00:40:52,880 Speaker 3: from Amazon. With the payday loan, ten Cent gets in 747 00:40:52,960 --> 00:40:55,000 Speaker 3: on it, so you can buy Mitro transactions with your 748 00:40:55,040 --> 00:40:59,000 Speaker 3: payday loans. This, as you might expect, Spiral's out of 749 00:40:59,000 --> 00:41:02,880 Speaker 3: control immediate lee on the interest race on these loans 750 00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:05,440 Speaker 3: are enormous, and this means that they make an unbelievable 751 00:41:05,440 --> 00:41:08,680 Speaker 3: amount of money. And so apps just start like shoveling 752 00:41:08,719 --> 00:41:11,240 Speaker 3: these loans in people's faces the momently long onto apps. 753 00:41:12,320 --> 00:41:14,319 Speaker 3: But the thing is like this doesn't stop with just 754 00:41:14,440 --> 00:41:18,879 Speaker 3: like the big shopping apps right by twenty nineteen. It's 755 00:41:18,880 --> 00:41:20,759 Speaker 3: not just you know, like when I say this is 756 00:41:20,760 --> 00:41:23,279 Speaker 3: going to apps right like you're fucking Like imagine if 757 00:41:23,360 --> 00:41:26,480 Speaker 3: Twitter was trying to offer you bad A loans, like 758 00:41:26,680 --> 00:41:30,800 Speaker 3: that's the main point of Oh that that might happen, 759 00:41:30,840 --> 00:41:34,920 Speaker 3: but that might actually maybe based on the plans for 760 00:41:35,120 --> 00:41:38,040 Speaker 3: the Twitter to become the banking app. Yeah, well that's 761 00:41:38,080 --> 00:41:42,800 Speaker 3: actually the funny thing. So so Elon Musk really really 762 00:41:43,080 --> 00:41:45,400 Speaker 3: likes China and part of the reason for this is 763 00:41:45,400 --> 00:41:46,880 Speaker 3: that you know, a bunch of Tesla factories are in 764 00:41:46,920 --> 00:41:49,600 Speaker 3: shing John part of the reason for this, like he's 765 00:41:49,600 --> 00:41:53,040 Speaker 3: trying to like recreate the like weed chat environments, but 766 00:41:53,080 --> 00:41:56,319 Speaker 3: everyone doesn't, right, Like people don't actually like it. But 767 00:41:56,320 --> 00:41:58,279 Speaker 3: the thing is, the other thing that he really loves 768 00:41:58,360 --> 00:41:59,759 Speaker 3: is the number of hours that you can get people 769 00:41:59,760 --> 00:42:02,120 Speaker 3: to work in China that you can't really in the US. 770 00:42:02,480 --> 00:42:05,080 Speaker 3: So we'll get to that fucking next episode. But you know, okay, 771 00:42:05,080 --> 00:42:07,120 Speaker 3: so like like your your fucking Twitter is trying to 772 00:42:07,120 --> 00:42:09,480 Speaker 3: sell you paid a apps, But then it gets the 773 00:42:09,520 --> 00:42:14,840 Speaker 3: point where your fucking flashlight app is trying to sell 774 00:42:14,880 --> 00:42:17,600 Speaker 3: you trying to get you to take out payday loans, 775 00:42:17,640 --> 00:42:21,040 Speaker 3: like your like photo app, like every fucking app on 776 00:42:21,120 --> 00:42:25,279 Speaker 3: your phone is trying to sell you pay loans. That 777 00:42:25,440 --> 00:42:28,360 Speaker 3: sounds incredibly annoying. This is and this is one of 778 00:42:28,360 --> 00:42:30,959 Speaker 3: these things right that like, okay, like as bad as 779 00:42:31,000 --> 00:42:34,040 Speaker 3: like American apps are, right, like as bad as like 780 00:42:34,080 --> 00:42:36,760 Speaker 3: the version of capitalism that we have in the American 781 00:42:36,760 --> 00:42:40,759 Speaker 3: app ecosystem, Like the wildest shit is always going on 782 00:42:40,840 --> 00:42:43,040 Speaker 3: in the Chinese tech market, which is like even more 783 00:42:43,080 --> 00:42:46,160 Speaker 3: insane than the American tech market, and this is the thing, 784 00:42:46,200 --> 00:42:48,319 Speaker 3: like we don't actually have this here, and I've been 785 00:42:48,320 --> 00:42:49,920 Speaker 3: trying to figure out why it never happened here. I 786 00:42:49,960 --> 00:42:51,800 Speaker 3: think it has to do it partially with banking regulation 787 00:42:51,880 --> 00:42:56,440 Speaker 3: and partially with like the fact that like the actual 788 00:42:56,480 --> 00:42:59,120 Speaker 3: American payd a loan companies don't want other companies to 789 00:42:59,160 --> 00:43:02,120 Speaker 3: like cut in on their business. Yes, so I think 790 00:43:02,160 --> 00:43:04,120 Speaker 3: that's what's happening. But like in China, it's literally like 791 00:43:04,160 --> 00:43:06,440 Speaker 3: and this is happening in like like like twenty nineteen, 792 00:43:06,560 --> 00:43:09,200 Speaker 3: twenty twenty, twenty twenty one, that this stuff is happening, 793 00:43:09,680 --> 00:43:12,600 Speaker 3: so you know, and it's in all and this this 794 00:43:12,680 --> 00:43:16,280 Speaker 3: gets I mean, it turns into just a fucking nightmare 795 00:43:16,719 --> 00:43:19,280 Speaker 3: because you know, obviously, like this turns into this giant 796 00:43:19,320 --> 00:43:21,480 Speaker 3: wave of people who got it in over their heads 797 00:43:21,520 --> 00:43:23,279 Speaker 3: and can't pay their loans back because they took out 798 00:43:23,280 --> 00:43:26,239 Speaker 3: a payday loan with thirty percent interest. And also, and 799 00:43:26,239 --> 00:43:28,440 Speaker 3: this is one of the fun things, companies just straight 800 00:43:28,520 --> 00:43:30,960 Speaker 3: up lie about their interest rates. Like there's a lot 801 00:43:30,960 --> 00:43:32,880 Speaker 3: of examples of companies saying we have a nine percent 802 00:43:32,880 --> 00:43:35,600 Speaker 3: interest rate, and then you know, in the contract it 803 00:43:35,600 --> 00:43:37,399 Speaker 3: says nine percent interest rate. And then when they try 804 00:43:37,400 --> 00:43:39,799 Speaker 3: to get you to pay it back. It's like thirty percent, right, 805 00:43:40,320 --> 00:43:42,439 Speaker 3: Like this is like you know, and so sometimes they're 806 00:43:42,440 --> 00:43:43,800 Speaker 3: they're even they're you know, you're getting up to like 807 00:43:43,800 --> 00:43:45,920 Speaker 3: one hundred tw hundred percent interest like these like organized 808 00:43:46,000 --> 00:43:49,920 Speaker 3: crime levels of interest. And you know, like Alli like 809 00:43:49,960 --> 00:43:52,440 Speaker 3: the tech giants are all into it. Ali Baba isn't 810 00:43:52,520 --> 00:43:54,920 Speaker 3: quite as big into it as like some of the 811 00:43:54,920 --> 00:43:58,160 Speaker 3: other companies, but like they're doing it, like they absolutely 812 00:43:58,239 --> 00:44:00,640 Speaker 3: are doing the payd a loan shit. And I mentioned 813 00:44:00,640 --> 00:44:03,799 Speaker 3: Alibaba here because in late twenty twenty, Jack Ma who's 814 00:44:03,840 --> 00:44:06,719 Speaker 3: the founder of Alli Baba, just like disappears. He's just 815 00:44:06,840 --> 00:44:09,719 Speaker 3: gone for like several months, no nobody knows where he is, 816 00:44:10,320 --> 00:44:13,520 Speaker 3: and then he reappears in like twenty twenty one, but 817 00:44:13,600 --> 00:44:17,960 Speaker 3: he's not doing tech ceo stuff anymore. He's doing like 818 00:44:18,640 --> 00:44:23,080 Speaker 3: weird public education tours in like rural China. And this 819 00:44:23,160 --> 00:44:27,719 Speaker 3: causes like a huge, a huge like kind of thing 820 00:44:27,760 --> 00:44:30,120 Speaker 3: in the American press because what they're reading it as, 821 00:44:30,160 --> 00:44:32,759 Speaker 3: and they're kind of right, is that there's this in 822 00:44:32,800 --> 00:44:36,000 Speaker 3: twenty twenty one, there's this enormous raft of financial regulations 823 00:44:36,040 --> 00:44:39,920 Speaker 3: on tech companies, and this gus interpreted is like a 824 00:44:39,960 --> 00:44:42,160 Speaker 3: crackdown on chech companies. Like the CCP is trying to 825 00:44:42,200 --> 00:44:45,040 Speaker 3: bring the tech giants in line, like they disappear jack 826 00:44:45,120 --> 00:44:49,040 Speaker 3: Ma and you know, one of the and this is 827 00:44:49,080 --> 00:44:51,040 Speaker 3: something something that a story that gets lost in this 828 00:44:51,120 --> 00:44:53,239 Speaker 3: in the American press is that like one of the 829 00:44:53,280 --> 00:44:56,640 Speaker 3: big things they're trying to do is stop is stop 830 00:44:56,719 --> 00:44:58,480 Speaker 3: all of these fucking companies. I'm turning their apps to 831 00:44:58,520 --> 00:45:03,560 Speaker 3: the pede alone factories. And you know, like I'm I'm 832 00:45:03,600 --> 00:45:06,960 Speaker 3: not like a CCP fan, Like it is well known, 833 00:45:07,600 --> 00:45:12,680 Speaker 3: Like it's like my dislike of the CCP is so 834 00:45:12,960 --> 00:45:15,160 Speaker 3: large that like a non insignificant number of people in 835 00:45:15,200 --> 00:45:18,080 Speaker 3: the US think I work for the CIA, right, But 836 00:45:18,239 --> 00:45:22,839 Speaker 3: like this is like those fucking tech companies they were 837 00:45:22,960 --> 00:45:26,360 Speaker 3: like they were like like on the edge of completely 838 00:45:26,440 --> 00:45:29,520 Speaker 3: annihilating the Chinese economy. They were very they got very 839 00:45:29,680 --> 00:45:33,680 Speaker 3: very close to just like reducing like enormous swaths of 840 00:45:33,719 --> 00:45:36,280 Speaker 3: the entire Chinese population and to like peer at based 841 00:45:36,280 --> 00:45:38,840 Speaker 3: debt pionage. It was a fucking disaster. And this is 842 00:45:38,880 --> 00:45:41,400 Speaker 3: part this is a big part of why this like 843 00:45:41,480 --> 00:45:44,239 Speaker 3: tech crackdown came in because the CCP was like, holy shit, 844 00:45:44,640 --> 00:45:47,440 Speaker 3: if you guys do this like you're actually going to 845 00:45:48,320 --> 00:45:51,040 Speaker 3: like like you're you're gonna You're gonna fucking nuke the 846 00:45:51,080 --> 00:45:53,719 Speaker 3: Chinese economy, like we cannot allow every single fucking app 847 00:45:53,760 --> 00:45:56,680 Speaker 3: to be a paid a loan like service and things. 848 00:45:56,800 --> 00:45:59,000 Speaker 3: I mean, it's still not great now, but it things 849 00:45:59,040 --> 00:46:01,279 Speaker 3: have gotten a lot less bad in the in the 850 00:46:01,280 --> 00:46:05,360 Speaker 3: payday loan like thing since then. But you know, again 851 00:46:05,400 --> 00:46:09,360 Speaker 3: like it it it had to get bad enough that 852 00:46:09,400 --> 00:46:11,000 Speaker 3: your flashlight, we're trying to get your take out of 853 00:46:11,000 --> 00:46:13,160 Speaker 3: payday loan for the CCP to actually like go after 854 00:46:13,200 --> 00:46:16,719 Speaker 3: their like tech giant darlings. And I think what happened 855 00:46:17,600 --> 00:46:23,640 Speaker 3: is that I think what happened is that Colin Huang 856 00:46:24,000 --> 00:46:28,680 Speaker 3: like saw which way the wind was blowing, and she 857 00:46:28,920 --> 00:46:31,000 Speaker 3: was like, Okay, there's gonna be a giant crackdown now 858 00:46:31,040 --> 00:46:32,920 Speaker 3: now two wits credit. This is the only time I 859 00:46:32,960 --> 00:46:36,319 Speaker 3: will give PDD credit for anything. PDD actually didn't do 860 00:46:36,360 --> 00:46:39,560 Speaker 3: the payday loan shit. I think because Colin Huang was 861 00:46:39,760 --> 00:46:42,000 Speaker 3: just slight was like smart enough to be like, this 862 00:46:42,040 --> 00:46:45,200 Speaker 3: is a fucking terrible idea, Like if we try to 863 00:46:45,239 --> 00:46:48,440 Speaker 3: get our like rural customer base hooked on pay day loans, 864 00:46:48,480 --> 00:46:50,799 Speaker 3: all these people are gonna just be completely broke in 865 00:46:50,960 --> 00:46:55,840 Speaker 3: like nine months. So PDD doesn't do it, but she 866 00:46:56,160 --> 00:46:58,760 Speaker 3: takes this moment like he picks twenty like July twenty 867 00:46:58,760 --> 00:47:01,279 Speaker 3: twenty eight, which is like a couple months before Jack 868 00:47:01,280 --> 00:47:03,120 Speaker 3: Modest spears, and he just fucking nopes and he's like 869 00:47:03,160 --> 00:47:07,600 Speaker 3: I'm out and yeah, like things, you know, and he 870 00:47:07,760 --> 00:47:11,120 Speaker 3: picked a good time, and this meant that, like, you know, 871 00:47:11,160 --> 00:47:14,360 Speaker 3: he never really faced any consequences for you know, he 872 00:47:14,840 --> 00:47:17,320 Speaker 3: wasn't really caught up in the crackdown. He got out fine, 873 00:47:18,200 --> 00:47:21,359 Speaker 3: and you know, he picked he picked the right time 874 00:47:21,400 --> 00:47:23,759 Speaker 3: to do it, and pdd's future in America was still 875 00:47:23,760 --> 00:47:27,360 Speaker 3: ahead of it. But when the Chinese media began to 876 00:47:27,400 --> 00:47:29,600 Speaker 3: uncover the dark side of PDD in twenty twenty one, 877 00:47:29,640 --> 00:47:32,759 Speaker 3: Colin Kwang was nowhere to be found. And that is 878 00:47:32,800 --> 00:47:37,840 Speaker 3: what we're covering tomorrow. We haven't even gotten to the bad. 879 00:47:37,719 --> 00:47:41,560 Speaker 4: Stuff yet, haven't even got to Temu proper. 880 00:47:41,880 --> 00:47:45,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, well the thing about Temu, and we will get 881 00:47:45,120 --> 00:47:48,880 Speaker 3: to Timo next episode. But Temu's like a twenty twenty 882 00:47:48,920 --> 00:47:52,040 Speaker 3: two thing, right, so it's really reacent. It's only been 883 00:47:52,040 --> 00:47:54,759 Speaker 3: around for like two years, which means that if we're 884 00:47:54,760 --> 00:47:56,719 Speaker 3: going to talk about this, ninety percent of it is 885 00:47:56,760 --> 00:48:01,120 Speaker 3: going to be PDD because PDD is like ninety years old. 886 00:48:02,520 --> 00:48:05,440 Speaker 3: But yeah, tune in tomorrow for a bunch of absolutely 887 00:48:05,520 --> 00:48:09,239 Speaker 3: harrowing ship. Yeah, this is this is this is it 888 00:48:09,239 --> 00:48:09,960 Speaker 3: could happen here. 889 00:48:10,239 --> 00:48:14,480 Speaker 4: We loved so exciting. I love learning about new harrowing ship. 890 00:48:29,880 --> 00:48:32,200 Speaker 3: Welcome to Jacob app and here a podcast featuring a 891 00:48:32,280 --> 00:48:34,880 Speaker 3: sound activated strobe light that you can't see because this 892 00:48:35,080 --> 00:48:37,520 Speaker 3: is not a visual podcast. 893 00:48:37,640 --> 00:48:41,280 Speaker 4: Unless you have like setasthesia and you could like start 894 00:48:41,800 --> 00:48:46,919 Speaker 4: hearing seeing the strobe through our voices, in which case 895 00:48:46,920 --> 00:48:47,480 Speaker 4: is good for you. 896 00:48:48,520 --> 00:48:52,640 Speaker 3: Wish that was me? Yeah, So that that's Garrison. I'm 897 00:48:52,680 --> 00:48:55,760 Speaker 3: the We're back again. We're back again for a descented 898 00:48:55,800 --> 00:48:59,040 Speaker 3: to hell. Yeah. So, so last episode we talked about 899 00:48:59,120 --> 00:49:01,800 Speaker 3: Colin Huang and the rise of PDD, which is China's 900 00:49:01,800 --> 00:49:05,440 Speaker 3: second largest shopping app and the Chinese version of the app, Temu. 901 00:49:06,800 --> 00:49:10,319 Speaker 3: So we're now in the post Colin Wong era, an 902 00:49:10,360 --> 00:49:13,600 Speaker 3: era I think actually might be worse than the original era, 903 00:49:13,640 --> 00:49:16,719 Speaker 3: which is kind of stunning. But you know, here we are, 904 00:49:16,840 --> 00:49:21,680 Speaker 3: here we are, and this era actually starts really well 905 00:49:21,880 --> 00:49:24,680 Speaker 3: for PDD. This is like twenty twenty twenty twenty one, 906 00:49:24,960 --> 00:49:29,520 Speaker 3: China's lockdowns are actually incredible for PDD because, as we 907 00:49:29,520 --> 00:49:32,560 Speaker 3: talked about last episode, pdd's strategy is group shopping, right, 908 00:49:32,600 --> 00:49:34,399 Speaker 3: It's about getting a bunch of people to buy things 909 00:49:34,440 --> 00:49:36,799 Speaker 3: together to make it cheaper, this thus pulling in more 910 00:49:36,800 --> 00:49:41,880 Speaker 3: in our customers. Now China had real lockdowns, and in 911 00:49:41,920 --> 00:49:45,160 Speaker 3: a real lockdown, this is increasingly how people got food. 912 00:49:45,560 --> 00:49:48,680 Speaker 3: You know, the strictness of the lockdowns very across, like 913 00:49:48,680 --> 00:49:50,640 Speaker 3: depending on what province you're in, right, But so like 914 00:49:50,680 --> 00:49:53,520 Speaker 3: my family was an inner Mongolia and an inner mongolia 915 00:49:53,560 --> 00:49:55,879 Speaker 3: in like the first lockdowns, you could send you could 916 00:49:55,880 --> 00:49:59,440 Speaker 3: only send one member of your family outside per week 917 00:50:00,920 --> 00:50:04,360 Speaker 3: to like, you know, to go get groceries. Otherwise everyone 918 00:50:04,400 --> 00:50:07,000 Speaker 3: else fed all times has to stay indoors. And this 919 00:50:07,040 --> 00:50:09,560 Speaker 3: meant that people started pulling together to like all buy 920 00:50:09,640 --> 00:50:12,080 Speaker 3: groceries and then sending one person out to like go 921 00:50:12,160 --> 00:50:15,880 Speaker 3: pick up the delivery. And this this ingrained PDDs like 922 00:50:15,920 --> 00:50:20,240 Speaker 3: fundamental strategy of like buying into the into the consiousness 923 00:50:20,239 --> 00:50:21,960 Speaker 3: of the Chinese public because they've just been doing it 924 00:50:22,000 --> 00:50:26,040 Speaker 3: for like a year, right, And as twenty twenty, for 925 00:50:26,080 --> 00:50:30,440 Speaker 3: a word on PDD like skyrockets. This this is this. 926 00:50:30,560 --> 00:50:32,839 Speaker 3: The period from like twenty twenty to like twenty twenty 927 00:50:32,920 --> 00:50:35,359 Speaker 3: four has been the period where pdd's grown them most. 928 00:50:35,400 --> 00:50:37,400 Speaker 3: I mean, it was already pretty big before then, but 929 00:50:37,520 --> 00:50:40,640 Speaker 3: now you know, it's it's now like the main competitor 930 00:50:40,640 --> 00:50:44,520 Speaker 3: of Alibaba. It was like the previously unassailable like online 931 00:50:44,560 --> 00:50:48,840 Speaker 3: shopping giant. The company grew so much that it forced 932 00:50:48,960 --> 00:50:51,680 Speaker 3: the other like shopping companies to get into the fruit 933 00:50:51,719 --> 00:50:54,480 Speaker 3: market because it was like clobbering them there so badly. 934 00:50:55,239 --> 00:50:58,920 Speaker 3: So yeah, it was wild. But then a bunch of 935 00:50:58,960 --> 00:51:02,800 Speaker 3: absolutely terrible stories broke about PDD in both the Chinese 936 00:51:02,800 --> 00:51:06,760 Speaker 3: and American press. So we're gonna start with the stuff 937 00:51:06,840 --> 00:51:10,760 Speaker 3: that's I guess less bad, and then it's gonna get worse. 938 00:51:12,200 --> 00:51:19,640 Speaker 3: So question number one is the PDD at malware. All right, 939 00:51:19,760 --> 00:51:22,560 Speaker 3: we're just really jumping right in here. Oh, this is 940 00:51:22,719 --> 00:51:25,000 Speaker 3: this is the mild shit, this is the Are we 941 00:51:25,000 --> 00:51:29,160 Speaker 3: allout to say this legally? Yeah? It's well, here's the thing. 942 00:51:29,200 --> 00:51:31,799 Speaker 3: So Google play removed the app from its play store. 943 00:51:31,920 --> 00:51:35,200 Speaker 3: Oh okay, so all right, so so okay, we need 944 00:51:35,239 --> 00:51:36,960 Speaker 3: to be very specific about what we're talking. It's too 945 00:51:36,960 --> 00:51:39,359 Speaker 3: bad for Google that it's probably too bad for you. Yeah, 946 00:51:39,400 --> 00:51:41,719 Speaker 3: so very specifically, this is we're the thing we're talking 947 00:51:41,719 --> 00:51:45,160 Speaker 3: about right now is not Temu. We're talking specifically about 948 00:51:45,440 --> 00:51:48,600 Speaker 3: the Chinese version of the app, PDD, And this was 949 00:51:48,640 --> 00:51:50,680 Speaker 3: released on the Google Play Store in like the mid 950 00:51:50,719 --> 00:51:53,000 Speaker 3: twenty the mid early like like I think it's like twenty. 951 00:51:52,880 --> 00:51:54,400 Speaker 5: Twenty one or something. 952 00:51:55,160 --> 00:51:59,520 Speaker 3: And okay, so this again, and to be clear again, 953 00:51:59,560 --> 00:52:03,640 Speaker 3: this is not this is specifically the Android version of PDD. 954 00:52:03,800 --> 00:52:06,680 Speaker 3: And this is interesting too because so most people in 955 00:52:06,760 --> 00:52:12,680 Speaker 3: China like don't use Android for you or sorry, they don't. 956 00:52:12,680 --> 00:52:14,880 Speaker 3: They don't. They don't use Google Play right, like they 957 00:52:15,120 --> 00:52:16,799 Speaker 3: don't that that's not like the App store where they 958 00:52:16,800 --> 00:52:20,799 Speaker 3: get their apps from. So when PDD released, like their 959 00:52:20,960 --> 00:52:23,080 Speaker 3: app on the app store, this is this is them 960 00:52:23,120 --> 00:52:24,800 Speaker 3: specifically going to the Western market. 961 00:52:25,880 --> 00:52:28,680 Speaker 4: And did they have infrastructure set up in the States 962 00:52:28,680 --> 00:52:31,680 Speaker 4: to support this type of like drop shipping or like 963 00:52:31,719 --> 00:52:32,399 Speaker 4: how do they. 964 00:52:32,440 --> 00:52:35,160 Speaker 3: Yeah, we'll get into it. 965 00:52:35,160 --> 00:52:36,880 Speaker 4: It was like kind of later a little bit like 966 00:52:36,960 --> 00:52:41,239 Speaker 4: gig economy stuff in China, But how how are they 967 00:52:41,280 --> 00:52:41,520 Speaker 4: going to. 968 00:52:41,560 --> 00:52:46,160 Speaker 3: Move that FedEx? Okay, yeah, right, well we'll get into 969 00:52:46,200 --> 00:52:48,600 Speaker 3: that more later. We're talking about Timmo. This first one 970 00:52:48,760 --> 00:52:51,319 Speaker 3: didn't like it didn't have that many users because it 971 00:52:51,360 --> 00:52:56,240 Speaker 3: was just like the Chinese app. But like here, okay, 972 00:52:56,360 --> 00:52:58,120 Speaker 3: so okay, there's something we also we need to get 973 00:52:58,160 --> 00:52:59,440 Speaker 3: out of the way first, which is that there's like 974 00:52:59,480 --> 00:53:02,520 Speaker 3: a massive panic in the US about Chinese apps being 975 00:53:02,640 --> 00:53:08,040 Speaker 3: like Chinese government trojan horses, like especially TikTok. So unfortunately, 976 00:53:08,080 --> 00:53:09,839 Speaker 3: before we start this we have to sort out kind 977 00:53:09,880 --> 00:53:12,400 Speaker 3: of or like you have to make a judgment about 978 00:53:12,400 --> 00:53:15,360 Speaker 3: what level of apps surveillance is, like the level of 979 00:53:15,400 --> 00:53:17,080 Speaker 3: apps are veilance you get in the US because all 980 00:53:17,120 --> 00:53:20,040 Speaker 3: of your apps are spying on you, and then what 981 00:53:20,239 --> 00:53:23,439 Speaker 3: is like above and beyond the like quote unquote normal 982 00:53:23,520 --> 00:53:27,719 Speaker 3: level of spying and like TikTok is TikTok is unbelievably invasive, right, 983 00:53:27,760 --> 00:53:29,719 Speaker 3: Like it is true, it's a privacy nightmare, but like 984 00:53:29,840 --> 00:53:32,799 Speaker 3: so are most apps, Like TikTok's worse than normal. But 985 00:53:32,840 --> 00:53:36,000 Speaker 3: it's not that TikTok is like the Chinese communists. So 986 00:53:36,719 --> 00:53:38,120 Speaker 3: this is something we're gonna get into. And this is 987 00:53:38,120 --> 00:53:41,280 Speaker 3: this is true with pdu too. The US actually gets 988 00:53:41,320 --> 00:53:44,080 Speaker 3: like the stripped down, cucked not as bad version of 989 00:53:44,160 --> 00:53:47,759 Speaker 3: Chinese apps like TikTok does not have a bunch of 990 00:53:47,760 --> 00:53:51,480 Speaker 3: the like integration stuff that that Doyen, the Chinese like 991 00:53:51,560 --> 00:53:53,600 Speaker 3: version of it has. We're like Douyen has this thing 992 00:53:53,640 --> 00:53:55,640 Speaker 3: where like I guess Google's kind of doing it now, 993 00:53:55,680 --> 00:53:59,440 Speaker 3: but like you can directly, like like an influencer can 994 00:53:59,480 --> 00:54:01,320 Speaker 3: hold up a p and you could tap the product 995 00:54:01,400 --> 00:54:05,200 Speaker 3: and go buy it. Google is trying to do that now. Yeah, 996 00:54:05,640 --> 00:54:08,279 Speaker 3: but China had that, like like Dueyan said that for 997 00:54:08,320 --> 00:54:10,680 Speaker 3: like ages, right, It's like so like the versions of 998 00:54:10,680 --> 00:54:12,439 Speaker 3: the apps that we get here are actually less bad 999 00:54:12,480 --> 00:54:14,880 Speaker 3: than the Chinese ones, which makes the whole panic so 1000 00:54:15,040 --> 00:54:17,480 Speaker 3: funny to me. It's like no, no, no, like they're sending 1001 00:54:17,520 --> 00:54:20,120 Speaker 3: you like a better version of the app. 1002 00:54:20,400 --> 00:54:24,560 Speaker 4: Like, well, that's because when Uncle Sam calls in our version, 1003 00:54:24,600 --> 00:54:28,520 Speaker 4: we have to take out all of the maoist influences. Yeah, 1004 00:54:29,560 --> 00:54:32,120 Speaker 4: I don't know whatever whatever, All. 1005 00:54:32,080 --> 00:54:35,480 Speaker 3: Right, all right, so you know, look like so we 1006 00:54:35,520 --> 00:54:36,920 Speaker 3: have to we have to sort out of the difference 1007 00:54:36,920 --> 00:54:38,960 Speaker 3: between stuff that's just like the weird moral panic and 1008 00:54:38,960 --> 00:54:43,440 Speaker 3: what what's actually malware. So CNN did an investigation of 1009 00:54:43,520 --> 00:54:46,160 Speaker 3: this app. So originally there was a Chinese company that 1010 00:54:46,239 --> 00:54:49,160 Speaker 3: a Chinese security company was looked at this app and 1011 00:54:49,280 --> 00:54:53,160 Speaker 3: was like, they're using a bunch of Android exploits, Like 1012 00:54:53,400 --> 00:54:57,040 Speaker 3: they're like they're using like they're they're they're effectively hacking 1013 00:54:57,080 --> 00:54:59,640 Speaker 3: your phone, right, They're they're they're they're deploying a bunch 1014 00:54:59,640 --> 00:55:02,360 Speaker 3: of x of things that are like broken in in 1015 00:55:02,960 --> 00:55:06,720 Speaker 3: like in Android and allowing you like this like lesson 1016 00:55:06,719 --> 00:55:08,040 Speaker 3: do stuff and I supposed to be able to do. 1017 00:55:08,520 --> 00:55:11,240 Speaker 3: And so CNN brought in a bunch of different security 1018 00:55:11,400 --> 00:55:13,880 Speaker 3: like analysts and like they brought in security companies like 1019 00:55:13,920 --> 00:55:15,320 Speaker 3: look at it, and here's what they found. 1020 00:55:15,560 --> 00:55:17,080 Speaker 4: Well, I don't know if you'd trust this c it EN. 1021 00:55:17,120 --> 00:55:19,720 Speaker 4: They're literally called the Communist News Network. 1022 00:55:22,120 --> 00:55:25,160 Speaker 3: Quote. The app was able to continue running in the 1023 00:55:25,160 --> 00:55:28,200 Speaker 3: background and prevent itself from being uninstalled, which allowed it 1024 00:55:28,239 --> 00:55:32,440 Speaker 3: to boost its monthly active rate right hyper on it. 1025 00:55:32,440 --> 00:55:33,759 Speaker 3: I don't know how pronounce this guy's name. I'm so 1026 00:55:33,800 --> 00:55:36,040 Speaker 3: sorry this guy. This guy's this guy's name has an 1027 00:55:36,120 --> 00:55:39,120 Speaker 3: umlot over the oh. I'm an expert at pronouncing foreign names. 1028 00:55:39,960 --> 00:55:40,400 Speaker 5: Give it to me. 1029 00:55:41,080 --> 00:55:45,399 Speaker 3: It's h y pp umlot o n e n good luck. 1030 00:55:46,200 --> 00:55:46,560 Speaker 3: You know what. 1031 00:55:46,640 --> 00:55:49,960 Speaker 4: I'm just gonna take a I'm gonna. 1032 00:55:49,760 --> 00:55:51,880 Speaker 3: Put in I'm so sorry to this guy, who I 1033 00:55:51,880 --> 00:55:55,560 Speaker 3: think is fine. This guy's security analyst said it also 1034 00:55:55,600 --> 00:55:58,560 Speaker 3: had the ability to spy on competitors by tracking activity 1035 00:55:58,560 --> 00:56:00,799 Speaker 3: on other shopping apps and getting in information from them. 1036 00:56:00,800 --> 00:56:05,080 Speaker 3: He added, Totin, which is like another guy, found PDD 1037 00:56:05,160 --> 00:56:09,279 Speaker 3: to have exploited about fifty Android system vulnerabilities. Most of 1038 00:56:09,320 --> 00:56:12,759 Speaker 3: these exploits were tailor made for customized parts known as 1039 00:56:12,840 --> 00:56:16,920 Speaker 3: original Equipment Manufacturer code, which tends to be audited less 1040 00:56:17,040 --> 00:56:21,160 Speaker 3: than ASoP, which is like another kind of code and 1041 00:56:21,200 --> 00:56:25,080 Speaker 3: therefore prone to more vulnerabilities. He said PDD had also 1042 00:56:25,200 --> 00:56:29,759 Speaker 3: exploited a number of AOSP vulnerabilities, including one that was 1043 00:56:29,800 --> 00:56:32,840 Speaker 3: flagged by Totioniin to Google in February twenty twenty two. 1044 00:56:33,040 --> 00:56:35,960 Speaker 3: Google fixed this bug in March. He said, I've never 1045 00:56:36,000 --> 00:56:40,960 Speaker 3: seen anything like it. It's like super expansive. Serg Totionin, 1046 00:56:41,040 --> 00:56:44,759 Speaker 3: android security expert, He's like guy said that, sorry, I've 1047 00:56:44,800 --> 00:56:47,480 Speaker 3: never seen and Android Tracin said, I've never seen anything 1048 00:56:47,520 --> 00:56:50,719 Speaker 3: like this. It's like super expansive. According to Tosian, the 1049 00:56:50,760 --> 00:56:55,719 Speaker 3: exploits allowed PDD to access users location, contacts, calendars, notification, 1050 00:56:55,800 --> 00:56:58,640 Speaker 3: and photo albums without their consents. They were also able 1051 00:56:58,680 --> 00:57:02,040 Speaker 3: to change systems, setting an access users social media accounts 1052 00:57:02,040 --> 00:57:05,920 Speaker 3: and chats. He said, Now that is pretty bad. I 1053 00:57:06,000 --> 00:57:08,200 Speaker 3: will I will mention that like a lot of your 1054 00:57:08,200 --> 00:57:11,040 Speaker 3: normal apps can also do shit like that. Yeah, like 1055 00:57:11,080 --> 00:57:13,240 Speaker 3: that's stuff that you can get out of, like Google, 1056 00:57:13,680 --> 00:57:16,600 Speaker 3: but some of it's not good. The other thing that 1057 00:57:16,680 --> 00:57:20,480 Speaker 3: they were doing is they're doing these things called privileged 1058 00:57:20,600 --> 00:57:23,240 Speaker 3: escalation attacks, where they're trying to get like a higher 1059 00:57:23,320 --> 00:57:25,240 Speaker 3: level of privilege on the system so they can run 1060 00:57:25,280 --> 00:57:26,760 Speaker 3: code and not supposed to be able to. So you 1061 00:57:26,800 --> 00:57:29,720 Speaker 3: know how like sometimes when you're running something at a computer, 1062 00:57:29,760 --> 00:57:31,480 Speaker 3: you have to run it as admin so the thing 1063 00:57:31,520 --> 00:57:32,160 Speaker 3: actually works. 1064 00:57:32,480 --> 00:57:37,920 Speaker 4: Yeah, like Discord, Yeah, I actually Discord. I've been trying 1065 00:57:37,960 --> 00:57:40,600 Speaker 4: to stream Alan Wake two to my friends and oh 1066 00:57:40,680 --> 00:57:44,440 Speaker 4: my god, it has been such a nightmare. I'm gonna 1067 00:57:44,440 --> 00:57:46,680 Speaker 4: personally write the CEO of Discord a letter. 1068 00:57:47,280 --> 00:57:51,480 Speaker 3: And yeah. But like so like so there they're like 1069 00:57:51,720 --> 00:57:54,680 Speaker 3: the way the system security works is there's certain levels 1070 00:57:54,680 --> 00:57:56,360 Speaker 3: of users that are allowed to do certain things and 1071 00:57:56,400 --> 00:57:58,280 Speaker 3: certain people who aren't, and this is supposed to stop 1072 00:57:58,320 --> 00:58:01,360 Speaker 3: people from running malicious code. And so they're doing these 1073 00:58:01,360 --> 00:58:03,640 Speaker 3: privileged escalation attacks where they're trying to be able to 1074 00:58:03,680 --> 00:58:06,560 Speaker 3: like do stuff that only admins can do, And so 1075 00:58:06,680 --> 00:58:08,880 Speaker 3: I showed this to it. So I was trying to 1076 00:58:08,880 --> 00:58:10,760 Speaker 3: get a gauge on how much of this is real 1077 00:58:10,800 --> 00:58:12,720 Speaker 3: and how much of this is insane, And so I 1078 00:58:12,720 --> 00:58:14,880 Speaker 3: showed I showed it to my friend who's a software engineer, 1079 00:58:14,880 --> 00:58:18,320 Speaker 3: and he was like, what the fuck? So this is 1080 00:58:19,000 --> 00:58:21,760 Speaker 3: this is very tetfically the privileged escalation attacks on the end, 1081 00:58:21,760 --> 00:58:24,800 Speaker 3: the attack on the like the original equipment manufacturer code, 1082 00:58:24,840 --> 00:58:26,800 Speaker 3: like the OEM stuff that's just not normal, Like that 1083 00:58:26,880 --> 00:58:30,240 Speaker 3: is that is actual malware that is like not that 1084 00:58:30,360 --> 00:58:32,320 Speaker 3: is not normal app bullshit that like, this thing is 1085 00:58:32,360 --> 00:58:34,560 Speaker 3: trying to hack your phone. So in twenty twenty three, 1086 00:58:34,640 --> 00:58:37,120 Speaker 3: the like Google pulled the app from the store because 1087 00:58:37,160 --> 00:58:38,800 Speaker 3: everyone was like, what the fuck. Wait, this is just 1088 00:58:38,880 --> 00:58:42,080 Speaker 3: literally malware. I'm gonna I'm gonna so so what were 1089 00:58:42,080 --> 00:58:45,400 Speaker 3: they trying to do? Here's CNN again. It was in 1090 00:58:45,440 --> 00:58:48,440 Speaker 3: twenty twenty, according to a current PDD employee, that the 1091 00:58:48,440 --> 00:58:50,840 Speaker 3: company set up a team of about one hundred engineers 1092 00:58:50,840 --> 00:58:54,360 Speaker 3: and product managers to dig for vulnerabilities and Android phones, 1093 00:58:55,120 --> 00:58:57,680 Speaker 3: develop ways to exploit them and turn that into profit. 1094 00:58:58,160 --> 00:59:01,280 Speaker 3: According to the source who who quested anonymity for feear 1095 00:59:01,320 --> 00:59:04,840 Speaker 3: of for fear of reprisals, the company only targeted users 1096 00:59:04,840 --> 00:59:07,760 Speaker 3: in rural areas and smaller towns initially, while of winning 1097 00:59:07,840 --> 00:59:11,640 Speaker 3: users in megacities such as Beijing and Shanghai. The goal 1098 00:59:11,800 --> 00:59:14,160 Speaker 3: was to reduce the risk of being exposed, they said. 1099 00:59:14,600 --> 00:59:17,880 Speaker 3: By collecting expansive data on user activities, the company was 1100 00:59:17,920 --> 00:59:21,000 Speaker 3: able to create a comprehensive portrait of the users' habits, interests, 1101 00:59:21,000 --> 00:59:24,160 Speaker 3: and preferences. According to the source, this also allowed it 1102 00:59:24,200 --> 00:59:27,440 Speaker 3: to improve its machine learning model to offer more personalized 1103 00:59:27,440 --> 00:59:31,120 Speaker 3: push notifications and ads, attracting users to open the app 1104 00:59:31,120 --> 00:59:33,760 Speaker 3: and place orders. They said, So this all makes perfect 1105 00:59:33,760 --> 00:59:37,360 Speaker 3: sense with like how we know that PDD operates right, Like, 1106 00:59:38,280 --> 00:59:40,640 Speaker 3: you know, they're trying to build detailed profiles or rural 1107 00:59:40,680 --> 00:59:43,200 Speaker 3: customers they can serve the more efficient ads, and they're 1108 00:59:43,200 --> 00:59:46,000 Speaker 3: doing it by apparently just straight up running an in 1109 00:59:46,040 --> 00:59:51,400 Speaker 3: house hacking team. I got pretty large one. Oh so 1110 00:59:51,480 --> 00:59:55,680 Speaker 3: they supposedly that team got like acted and they don't 1111 00:59:55,680 --> 01:00:01,200 Speaker 3: do it anymore, but who knows. So, Okay, this is 1112 01:00:01,280 --> 01:00:04,840 Speaker 3: not even close to the most batshit thing that PDD 1113 01:00:04,920 --> 01:00:08,560 Speaker 3: gets up to. Okay, we're gonna escalate up the how 1114 01:00:08,600 --> 01:00:10,400 Speaker 3: weird this stuff is. So. One of the things that 1115 01:00:10,400 --> 01:00:12,440 Speaker 3: that PDD has a six tone och reporting is that 1116 01:00:12,480 --> 01:00:15,720 Speaker 3: they have these really strict non compete clauses that prevent 1117 01:00:15,800 --> 01:00:17,920 Speaker 3: people from like so if you if you take a 1118 01:00:18,000 --> 01:00:21,480 Speaker 3: job here and you get fired or eat, like you leave, 1119 01:00:21,720 --> 01:00:23,560 Speaker 3: you can't take another job at a tech company for 1120 01:00:23,600 --> 01:00:26,120 Speaker 3: like two years. This is like fucking like any tech company, 1121 01:00:26,280 --> 01:00:28,800 Speaker 3: like fucking like, I don't know, they're they're really expensive. 1122 01:00:28,840 --> 01:00:31,400 Speaker 3: It's like like fucking like setting up your grandma's website 1123 01:00:31,520 --> 01:00:33,040 Speaker 3: like might get you in trouble. It's like it's it's 1124 01:00:33,160 --> 01:00:34,840 Speaker 3: a real disaster. We have these in the US too, 1125 01:00:34,880 --> 01:00:37,000 Speaker 3: and they absolutely suck. So I think there was a 1126 01:00:37,120 --> 01:00:42,240 Speaker 3: ruling about them, an FTC ruling to ban them recently. 1127 01:00:43,320 --> 01:00:46,040 Speaker 3: Maybe oh no, they're proposed, it hasn't gone through yet 1128 01:00:47,000 --> 01:00:48,760 Speaker 3: trying to get rid of them. But yeah, there's they're 1129 01:00:48,800 --> 01:00:50,440 Speaker 3: in the US two. But these ones are really strict 1130 01:00:50,440 --> 01:00:53,680 Speaker 3: and apparently they're like PDD is really aggressive about it 1131 01:00:53,720 --> 01:00:56,400 Speaker 3: to the point where like people people will take other 1132 01:00:56,520 --> 01:00:59,960 Speaker 3: jobs under fake identities and like pdd's hr will like 1133 01:01:00,160 --> 01:01:03,560 Speaker 3: track them down. Oh wow, yeah, like they're they're like 1134 01:01:03,600 --> 01:01:07,040 Speaker 3: headhunting these people well, like like inverse headhunt, like they're 1135 01:01:07,080 --> 01:01:09,440 Speaker 3: they're like they're literally just hunting down people trying who 1136 01:01:09,480 --> 01:01:12,480 Speaker 3: are trying to get like jobs, right, And this apparently 1137 01:01:12,560 --> 01:01:15,840 Speaker 3: led people to adopt secret identities to like hide, right, 1138 01:01:15,880 --> 01:01:18,160 Speaker 3: And so this kid is something I I did not 1139 01:01:18,400 --> 01:01:21,160 Speaker 3: believe the first time I read it, which is that 1140 01:01:21,240 --> 01:01:24,400 Speaker 3: apparently and I originally read this in NIK, which is 1141 01:01:24,480 --> 01:01:26,080 Speaker 3: usually reliable, but I read this and I was like, 1142 01:01:26,120 --> 01:01:28,320 Speaker 3: no way. Uh. The thing that they said was that 1143 01:01:28,360 --> 01:01:31,640 Speaker 3: employees at work, like who work for PDD apparently use 1144 01:01:31,680 --> 01:01:34,920 Speaker 3: pseudonyms and like never tell each like almost never tell 1145 01:01:34,920 --> 01:01:39,080 Speaker 3: each other they're actual names. That's I mean, that makes sense. 1146 01:01:40,040 --> 01:01:44,160 Speaker 3: And apparently also they're banned from like like the information level. 1147 01:01:44,240 --> 01:01:47,480 Speaker 3: Information control was so strict that like you can't you're 1148 01:01:47,480 --> 01:01:50,200 Speaker 3: not allowed to know what like the structure of another 1149 01:01:50,280 --> 01:01:53,280 Speaker 3: work group is. And like I read this, I was 1150 01:01:53,280 --> 01:01:54,959 Speaker 3: like I don't believe this, right, And then I started 1151 01:01:55,040 --> 01:01:58,000 Speaker 3: running into like other outlets like Financial Times, was like yeah, no, no, 1152 01:01:58,040 --> 01:02:00,240 Speaker 3: apparently they they talked to they they talked to people 1153 01:02:00,240 --> 01:02:02,120 Speaker 3: who work for the company. They're like, yeah, everyone uses pseudonyms. 1154 01:02:02,120 --> 01:02:03,760 Speaker 3: I didn't fucking know anyone's real name or like there 1155 01:02:03,840 --> 01:02:06,360 Speaker 3: was like one person who's real name that I know wild. 1156 01:02:06,960 --> 01:02:08,520 Speaker 3: I don't know why they do. I've never seen I've 1157 01:02:08,560 --> 01:02:12,040 Speaker 3: literally never seen this before with any company. It's it's 1158 01:02:12,080 --> 01:02:16,880 Speaker 3: fucking nuts. I got nothing. Yeah, I do you know who? 1159 01:02:17,200 --> 01:02:19,200 Speaker 3: No one had this company knows my real name. So 1160 01:02:19,960 --> 01:02:23,000 Speaker 3: that's true. I do actually operate by a pseudonym. Yeah that. 1161 01:02:24,480 --> 01:02:26,840 Speaker 4: Is not like a sizable portion of the cool Zone 1162 01:02:26,840 --> 01:02:27,880 Speaker 4: Media team, but. 1163 01:02:29,400 --> 01:02:31,720 Speaker 3: All of us are fake names. Robert Evans, that's not 1164 01:02:31,840 --> 01:02:37,320 Speaker 3: Robert Evans, real Robert Evans. It was the producer of 1165 01:02:37,360 --> 01:02:40,560 Speaker 3: that movie. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. 1166 01:02:40,600 --> 01:02:45,640 Speaker 4: Anyway, do you know who also has trustworthy names that 1167 01:02:45,680 --> 01:02:48,840 Speaker 4: you can trust these products? 1168 01:02:49,120 --> 01:02:49,360 Speaker 6: Woo? 1169 01:03:01,720 --> 01:03:05,760 Speaker 4: So true? Jeff, Wow, that was a really funny joke. Bill, Oh, 1170 01:03:05,800 --> 01:03:06,280 Speaker 4: we're back. 1171 01:03:06,480 --> 01:03:06,760 Speaker 3: Sorry. 1172 01:03:06,760 --> 01:03:09,200 Speaker 4: I was just talking to the two fake fake name 1173 01:03:09,240 --> 01:03:11,360 Speaker 4: people who are listening in on our call right now. 1174 01:03:11,840 --> 01:03:15,000 Speaker 3: Me I continue. So this is where we get to 1175 01:03:15,120 --> 01:03:21,120 Speaker 3: the truly bleak stuff. So all right, in twenty twenty one, 1176 01:03:21,280 --> 01:03:27,120 Speaker 3: one of pdd's employees in shing Juhn just worked worked 1177 01:03:27,160 --> 01:03:29,560 Speaker 3: a shift, came home, and the distrait up fucking died 1178 01:03:29,560 --> 01:03:34,280 Speaker 3: in her bed from overwork. This this was a you know, 1179 01:03:34,560 --> 01:03:37,600 Speaker 3: this very quickly turns into a giant media thing because 1180 01:03:37,800 --> 01:03:40,200 Speaker 3: this woman like she's in she's in really good health, 1181 01:03:40,240 --> 01:03:44,000 Speaker 3: and she just fucking is worked so hard that she 1182 01:03:44,080 --> 01:03:47,520 Speaker 3: lays down he her bed dies. Then a worker who 1183 01:03:47,600 --> 01:03:50,720 Speaker 3: posted a video of an ambulance outside of pdd's headquarters 1184 01:03:50,720 --> 01:03:54,320 Speaker 3: with the caption another brave warrior of PDD has fallen, 1185 01:03:55,000 --> 01:03:59,280 Speaker 3: which great caption, terrible situation, great caption. He gets fired 1186 01:03:59,320 --> 01:04:04,560 Speaker 3: for it, and then very quickly like after that, so 1187 01:04:05,120 --> 01:04:08,640 Speaker 3: they have like a the company has like a Q 1188 01:04:08,800 --> 01:04:11,840 Speaker 3: and a thing like if effectively, what happens is someone 1189 01:04:11,880 --> 01:04:14,400 Speaker 3: responds to like one of their social media accounts with 1190 01:04:14,680 --> 01:04:17,800 Speaker 3: and asks them what do you think of the PDD 1191 01:04:17,960 --> 01:04:21,680 Speaker 3: worker who died after working overtime? Should PDD bear responsibility? 1192 01:04:22,120 --> 01:04:27,720 Speaker 3: Their corporate account responded and I quote, look at those 1193 01:04:27,760 --> 01:04:30,920 Speaker 3: in the underclass, who isn't exchanging life for money. I 1194 01:04:30,960 --> 01:04:33,280 Speaker 3: never thought that this is a problem of capital, but 1195 01:04:33,320 --> 01:04:36,840 Speaker 3: as a problem of this society. We live in an 1196 01:04:36,920 --> 01:04:39,840 Speaker 3: era where we spend our whole lives working hard. You 1197 01:04:39,880 --> 01:04:42,320 Speaker 3: can choose a comfortable life if you accept the consequences 1198 01:04:42,320 --> 01:04:45,680 Speaker 3: of comfortable living. People control how much effort they make. 1199 01:04:45,760 --> 01:04:46,640 Speaker 3: Everyone does. 1200 01:04:48,000 --> 01:04:51,920 Speaker 4: I can't believe this people who genuinely like advocate that 1201 01:04:52,160 --> 01:04:57,000 Speaker 4: China is a like communist country, so strange, that's insane. 1202 01:04:57,800 --> 01:05:01,600 Speaker 4: They're only talking like God. 1203 01:05:00,840 --> 01:05:02,960 Speaker 3: This is this is like this and this is like 1204 01:05:03,000 --> 01:05:04,360 Speaker 3: and this is like this is one of the things 1205 01:05:04,360 --> 01:05:08,040 Speaker 3: that like I just like I don't know, like I 1206 01:05:08,360 --> 01:05:10,800 Speaker 3: just can't fucking get over this ship because like I 1207 01:05:10,880 --> 01:05:13,040 Speaker 3: have a bunch of fucking family in China, And do 1208 01:05:13,040 --> 01:05:15,280 Speaker 3: you know do they fucking quote Karl Marx, No, they 1209 01:05:15,360 --> 01:05:18,880 Speaker 3: quote Steve Jobs because they're all these like fucking insane 1210 01:05:19,160 --> 01:05:24,680 Speaker 3: entrepreneur bullshit, like like fucking literally like grind set like 1211 01:05:25,200 --> 01:05:29,200 Speaker 3: until you straps. Yeah, it's insane. It's like, no, it's 1212 01:05:29,040 --> 01:05:30,680 Speaker 3: not your fault that you work too hard. This is 1213 01:05:30,720 --> 01:05:35,160 Speaker 3: actually labor's fault and not capital like this. This fucking 1214 01:05:35,200 --> 01:05:37,240 Speaker 3: blew up in the Chinese media when people got like 1215 01:05:37,520 --> 01:05:41,600 Speaker 3: people got really fucking pissed, and PDD at first was like, no, 1216 01:05:41,760 --> 01:05:43,280 Speaker 3: this is a fake post. We never did it, and 1217 01:05:43,280 --> 01:05:44,680 Speaker 3: the people were like, no, no, it's not. This is 1218 01:05:45,000 --> 01:05:47,080 Speaker 3: we found the post. Right, they take they take it down. 1219 01:05:47,120 --> 01:05:50,120 Speaker 3: People like had saved screenshots, and eventually the company was 1220 01:05:50,120 --> 01:05:53,120 Speaker 3: forced to admit that it was actually their account, but 1221 01:05:53,160 --> 01:05:55,960 Speaker 3: then they said that it was a social media contractor 1222 01:05:55,960 --> 01:05:58,680 Speaker 3: who put it on the corporate account. Quote by mistake. 1223 01:05:59,040 --> 01:06:04,040 Speaker 4: Oh sure, yeah, that's like that. That's like me when 1224 01:06:04,040 --> 01:06:09,120 Speaker 4: I search my twin peaks not Safe for work fan 1225 01:06:09,280 --> 01:06:11,640 Speaker 4: art on the coolest media account. It was a mistake, guys, 1226 01:06:12,200 --> 01:06:15,000 Speaker 4: didn't didn't didn't mean to post it there. I don't 1227 01:06:15,000 --> 01:06:17,480 Speaker 4: know how that happened, it got it got past the VODs. 1228 01:06:17,520 --> 01:06:21,040 Speaker 3: I don't know how. Yeah, and you know, people, people 1229 01:06:21,120 --> 01:06:25,120 Speaker 3: understandably are not happy. Like and then eleven days later, 1230 01:06:26,000 --> 01:06:31,000 Speaker 3: a PDD employee jumps off a fucking building again, also 1231 01:06:31,240 --> 01:06:34,960 Speaker 3: because they've been worked so hard. And this this is 1232 01:06:34,960 --> 01:06:38,400 Speaker 3: where we need to talk about pdd's labor conditions, because 1233 01:06:38,880 --> 01:06:44,680 Speaker 3: they are fucking appalling. Here's sixth Tone. A former PDD 1234 01:06:44,800 --> 01:06:47,520 Speaker 3: employee who left the company a year ago told sixth 1235 01:06:47,560 --> 01:06:51,640 Speaker 3: Tone under conditions of anonymity, that excessive work hours are 1236 01:06:51,640 --> 01:06:54,920 Speaker 3: common practice around eight months after he joined PDD in 1237 01:06:54,960 --> 01:06:57,600 Speaker 3: early twenty nineteen. He said employees were told they need 1238 01:06:57,640 --> 01:07:01,720 Speaker 3: to work at least three hundred hours per month, amounting 1239 01:07:01,760 --> 01:07:04,320 Speaker 3: to nearly twelve hours per day, six days a week. 1240 01:07:05,480 --> 01:07:07,280 Speaker 3: We're gonna get more into that that's a schedule called 1241 01:07:07,400 --> 01:07:10,000 Speaker 3: nine nine six, where you work from nine am to 1242 01:07:10,040 --> 01:07:13,800 Speaker 3: nine pm, six days a week. This is incredibly common 1243 01:07:13,800 --> 01:07:16,800 Speaker 3: and try This is actually a good schedule. In a 1244 01:07:16,800 --> 01:07:19,919 Speaker 3: lot of Chinese work environments, it can get way worse 1245 01:07:20,000 --> 01:07:23,360 Speaker 3: than that. Here's another quote from that six Tone article. 1246 01:07:24,200 --> 01:07:26,480 Speaker 3: The company cares a lot about our work hours. It 1247 01:07:26,480 --> 01:07:29,840 Speaker 3: has become company culture. Even if staff is finished working, 1248 01:07:30,080 --> 01:07:32,520 Speaker 3: if they'll just stay in the office. I was one 1249 01:07:32,560 --> 01:07:34,760 Speaker 3: of the lucky ones. I only had to work from 1250 01:07:34,800 --> 01:07:37,960 Speaker 3: eleven am to ten pm, and my manager was nice 1251 01:07:38,000 --> 01:07:42,680 Speaker 3: to me. This person added that employees arriving after eleven 1252 01:07:42,720 --> 01:07:45,840 Speaker 3: am would have their daily wages docked by three hours. 1253 01:07:47,040 --> 01:07:53,240 Speaker 3: It's fucking insane. It's nightmarish. That same worker talked about 1254 01:07:53,280 --> 01:07:55,800 Speaker 3: how she would like this is a thing that's like 1255 01:07:56,440 --> 01:07:58,120 Speaker 3: you see this a lot of different accounts, is that 1256 01:07:58,200 --> 01:08:00,920 Speaker 3: people would just literally break down ryeing at their desks 1257 01:08:00,960 --> 01:08:04,600 Speaker 3: because they had so they were so overworked. Are these 1258 01:08:04,640 --> 01:08:09,080 Speaker 3: like office jobs? These are workers workers? These are fucking 1259 01:08:09,120 --> 01:08:13,400 Speaker 3: tech workers, Like right, these are the fucking bougie tech jobs. 1260 01:08:13,440 --> 01:08:15,440 Speaker 4: They're not like the Chinese because they're getting overworked in 1261 01:08:15,520 --> 01:08:17,800 Speaker 4: like a factory or like an Amazon warehouse. 1262 01:08:18,000 --> 01:08:20,599 Speaker 3: Tech workers and this this is the thing about this, right, 1263 01:08:20,640 --> 01:08:23,920 Speaker 3: is that like we we only we don't like there 1264 01:08:23,920 --> 01:08:25,960 Speaker 3: hasn't been okay, So the Chinese media, this actually like 1265 01:08:25,960 --> 01:08:27,680 Speaker 3: becomes a huge thing in the Chinese media, is that 1266 01:08:27,720 --> 01:08:30,360 Speaker 3: these people are dying. There was another there's also around 1267 01:08:30,360 --> 01:08:32,559 Speaker 3: the same time, a delivery driver lit himself on fire 1268 01:08:33,000 --> 01:08:34,720 Speaker 3: like as a protest for like the amount of shit 1269 01:08:34,800 --> 01:08:36,679 Speaker 3: that he had to deal with. And this was a big, 1270 01:08:36,760 --> 01:08:40,000 Speaker 3: like a huge thing in the Chinese media. But almost 1271 01:08:40,040 --> 01:08:42,519 Speaker 3: all of the reporting and the coverage and stuff like 1272 01:08:42,560 --> 01:08:46,600 Speaker 3: that was about the tech workers. But like, fucking so 1273 01:08:46,680 --> 01:08:49,880 Speaker 3: many people work schedules that are worse than nine ninety six, right, 1274 01:08:50,080 --> 01:08:51,320 Speaker 3: Like that is a that is a that is a 1275 01:08:51,320 --> 01:08:53,519 Speaker 3: tech workers schedule. Right, there are a lot of places 1276 01:08:53,560 --> 01:08:56,439 Speaker 3: where people were fucking way worse shit. The sort of 1277 01:08:56,479 --> 01:09:00,479 Speaker 3: countervailing force to it is people who, like you know, 1278 01:09:00,560 --> 01:09:02,400 Speaker 3: we talked about this kind of in the Lying Flat episodes. 1279 01:09:02,439 --> 01:09:07,519 Speaker 3: It's people working for like one day and then eating 1280 01:09:07,640 --> 01:09:10,560 Speaker 3: just like plain rice with some like whatever fucking the 1281 01:09:10,640 --> 01:09:12,639 Speaker 3: cheapest thing they can finally they can fucking get out 1282 01:09:12,640 --> 01:09:14,160 Speaker 3: of it and not working for two more days and 1283 01:09:14,160 --> 01:09:18,720 Speaker 3: working another day. But like it's it's so bad, like 1284 01:09:18,760 --> 01:09:23,960 Speaker 3: the little labor conditions are just appalling, And you know, 1285 01:09:24,120 --> 01:09:26,559 Speaker 3: like a bunch of stories sort of started coming out 1286 01:09:26,600 --> 01:09:30,800 Speaker 3: about how bad PDDs like conditions are. There was one 1287 01:09:30,800 --> 01:09:34,439 Speaker 3: on we chat that broke that I saw via six 1288 01:09:34,479 --> 01:09:38,479 Speaker 3: tone about the toilet situation in pdd's largest office building. 1289 01:09:39,320 --> 01:09:43,360 Speaker 3: So this building has one thousand people per floor, It 1290 01:09:43,400 --> 01:09:50,160 Speaker 3: has eight total bathrooms per floor. One thousand people. They 1291 01:09:50,200 --> 01:09:53,280 Speaker 3: don't even have one bathroom for every hundred people. 1292 01:09:55,080 --> 01:09:57,519 Speaker 4: How does this even function? I mean, like I suppose 1293 01:09:57,520 --> 01:09:59,240 Speaker 4: it just does that people are like pea. 1294 01:09:59,120 --> 01:10:02,920 Speaker 3: No like people people people fucking like you don't eat 1295 01:10:02,960 --> 01:10:05,880 Speaker 3: in the morning, or you try to hold out to 1296 01:10:06,000 --> 01:10:08,040 Speaker 3: lunch when you can run to a different building and 1297 01:10:08,040 --> 01:10:10,800 Speaker 3: try to use the bathrooms there. But like you know, 1298 01:10:11,479 --> 01:10:13,880 Speaker 3: if you try to hold it all day, or you 1299 01:10:13,920 --> 01:10:15,680 Speaker 3: just yeah, where you fucking do that? You go, you go. 1300 01:10:15,840 --> 01:10:18,519 Speaker 3: You you use your lunch time instead of eating to 1301 01:10:18,920 --> 01:10:24,080 Speaker 3: fucking go somewhere else. You starve yourself. There are like 1302 01:10:24,640 --> 01:10:26,840 Speaker 3: there's a bunch of reports of guys just like shitting 1303 01:10:26,880 --> 01:10:29,600 Speaker 3: in urinals because there's literally wasn't time for them to 1304 01:10:29,720 --> 01:10:33,200 Speaker 3: fucking actually like use a stall, so they're just like 1305 01:10:33,360 --> 01:10:37,160 Speaker 3: they're they're just like they're they're pooping in urinals. Maybe 1306 01:10:37,200 --> 01:10:40,559 Speaker 3: the worst picture I've ever seen in my entire life 1307 01:10:40,680 --> 01:10:43,519 Speaker 3: is this is gonna be the episode are PDD started 1308 01:10:43,560 --> 01:10:47,720 Speaker 3: installing timers over the toilets to show how long how 1309 01:10:47,760 --> 01:10:50,240 Speaker 3: long people had been there. So there's just like a 1310 01:10:50,640 --> 01:10:53,840 Speaker 3: like a a fucking clock over you that starts when 1311 01:10:53,880 --> 01:10:56,000 Speaker 3: you when you fucking close the door to try to 1312 01:10:56,000 --> 01:10:58,200 Speaker 3: get people to go to the bathroom faster. It is 1313 01:10:58,320 --> 01:11:01,760 Speaker 3: just appalling the conditions. And again, these are the conditions 1314 01:11:01,800 --> 01:11:08,559 Speaker 3: of like the office workers. It's apocalyptically bad. So I 1315 01:11:08,640 --> 01:11:10,880 Speaker 3: realized when I was researching this story that I actually 1316 01:11:11,040 --> 01:11:13,840 Speaker 3: ran into PDD earlier because I so like before I 1317 01:11:13,840 --> 01:11:15,960 Speaker 3: did this story, I hadn't looked into TEMU at all, 1318 01:11:17,240 --> 01:11:19,599 Speaker 3: and I realized that I had. I had ran into 1319 01:11:19,640 --> 01:11:22,360 Speaker 3: PDD earlier when I was tracking the story about uh 1320 01:11:22,439 --> 01:11:26,200 Speaker 3: tech workers banding together to like basically like on GitHub, 1321 01:11:26,240 --> 01:11:28,880 Speaker 3: these these office workers, like tech workers like made a 1322 01:11:28,920 --> 01:11:31,920 Speaker 3: giant spreadshet where everyone would document their hours and like 1323 01:11:31,920 --> 01:11:34,080 Speaker 3: their pay scales and stuff. And it was like, you know, 1324 01:11:34,080 --> 01:11:36,559 Speaker 3: it was this sort of like you know, it was 1325 01:11:36,600 --> 01:11:38,719 Speaker 3: it was a thing to like demand better labor conditions. Actually, 1326 01:11:38,760 --> 01:11:40,760 Speaker 3: i'mretty I'm pretty sure they were actually demanding like the 1327 01:11:41,040 --> 01:11:44,479 Speaker 3: workplace democracy too. It was pretty wild. But the thing 1328 01:11:44,520 --> 01:11:47,000 Speaker 3: that you get out of that is that PDD has 1329 01:11:47,280 --> 01:11:52,680 Speaker 3: the worst the worst hours of any tech company. They are. 1330 01:11:52,760 --> 01:11:56,639 Speaker 3: PDD is so bad that other Chinese tech companies got 1331 01:11:56,800 --> 01:11:59,800 Speaker 3: worse in order to compete with them. Yeah, it is. 1332 01:12:00,200 --> 01:12:02,720 Speaker 4: That is the whole hard thing about setting the bar 1333 01:12:02,840 --> 01:12:06,000 Speaker 4: so low is that it allows other people to lower. 1334 01:12:05,720 --> 01:12:09,880 Speaker 3: Their own bars. Yeah. Yeah, and it makes just every 1335 01:12:10,000 --> 01:12:14,360 Speaker 3: everybody worse. Yeah. And again, like I I can't emphasize 1336 01:12:14,479 --> 01:12:18,240 Speaker 3: enough the extent to which these are the office workers, right, Like, 1337 01:12:18,360 --> 01:12:20,240 Speaker 3: these are the people who are making the best money 1338 01:12:20,240 --> 01:12:23,559 Speaker 3: out of this, who are treated better than like the 1339 01:12:23,600 --> 01:12:26,160 Speaker 3: fucking factory workers and the fucking like people in the 1340 01:12:26,240 --> 01:12:28,360 Speaker 3: rural areas like fucking doing farming. 1341 01:12:28,640 --> 01:12:28,800 Speaker 7: Right. 1342 01:12:30,479 --> 01:12:33,439 Speaker 3: But again we don't we don't know a huge amount 1343 01:12:33,600 --> 01:12:36,640 Speaker 3: about what those workers' lives are like because they're not 1344 01:12:36,880 --> 01:12:39,720 Speaker 3: urban tech workers. And urban tech workers can get their 1345 01:12:39,720 --> 01:12:42,280 Speaker 3: stories into the press, but like you know, migrant migrant 1346 01:12:42,320 --> 01:12:45,920 Speaker 3: factory workers, rural workers, there's you know, there's just not 1347 01:12:46,040 --> 01:12:48,439 Speaker 3: the kind of attention that you can get out of 1348 01:12:48,439 --> 01:12:52,240 Speaker 3: a big story about like an urban office building, and 1349 01:12:52,640 --> 01:12:54,439 Speaker 3: you know, I mean, these labor conditions are so bad 1350 01:12:54,439 --> 01:12:56,320 Speaker 3: that people are just straight up fucking dying. And the 1351 01:12:56,600 --> 01:13:00,000 Speaker 3: Chinese government eventually gets involved, like they're they're, they're, they're 1352 01:13:00,120 --> 01:13:03,839 Speaker 3: version of the Streame. Court eventually rules that like working 1353 01:13:03,880 --> 01:13:06,759 Speaker 3: people twelve hours a day, six days a week is illegal, 1354 01:13:06,800 --> 01:13:09,960 Speaker 3: but it doesn't really matter, like a lot of those 1355 01:13:10,000 --> 01:13:14,800 Speaker 3: people still have those same schedules. Yeah, and you know, 1356 01:13:14,840 --> 01:13:16,600 Speaker 3: and like this this is not a this is not 1357 01:13:16,640 --> 01:13:20,760 Speaker 3: a problem that can be solved just by like court rulings. Right, 1358 01:13:21,600 --> 01:13:26,360 Speaker 3: So yeah, it's it's really fucking bad. We're gonna we're 1359 01:13:26,400 --> 01:13:29,280 Speaker 3: gonna take an ad break. I don't I don't have 1360 01:13:29,320 --> 01:13:42,559 Speaker 3: a good transition out of that ship. And we're back. 1361 01:13:42,600 --> 01:13:44,640 Speaker 3: So all of this brings us to Temu And it's 1362 01:13:44,680 --> 01:13:46,200 Speaker 3: slogan shop like a millionaire. 1363 01:13:47,400 --> 01:13:52,120 Speaker 4: So, oh god, this the slogan, it's so it like 1364 01:13:52,560 --> 01:13:55,800 Speaker 4: it evokes like a like a nauseous reaction in me. 1365 01:13:56,439 --> 01:14:01,960 Speaker 4: It's so it epitomizes everything that is wrong about our 1366 01:14:02,000 --> 01:14:07,080 Speaker 4: current way of living and the way we idealize the 1367 01:14:07,200 --> 01:14:10,120 Speaker 4: rich and put them on this like pedestal for how 1368 01:14:10,160 --> 01:14:12,640 Speaker 4: you should live your life. But also knowing that you 1369 01:14:12,680 --> 01:14:15,519 Speaker 4: will never actually be there. Yeah, this is this is 1370 01:14:15,800 --> 01:14:17,160 Speaker 4: this is as close as you're going to. 1371 01:14:17,160 --> 01:14:19,559 Speaker 3: Get, and it's it's it's also a thing where like 1372 01:14:19,640 --> 01:14:21,639 Speaker 3: it's it's a completely unreal lit like it's if that's 1373 01:14:21,640 --> 01:14:24,040 Speaker 3: this isn't how fucking billionaires shop like billionaires do? It's 1374 01:14:24,080 --> 01:14:27,200 Speaker 3: shop like you think those people fucking shop Like, no, no, 1375 01:14:27,320 --> 01:14:28,559 Speaker 3: they don't. They have they have. 1376 01:14:29,320 --> 01:14:33,400 Speaker 4: Over over like saving three dollars on on like a mango. 1377 01:14:33,520 --> 01:14:35,479 Speaker 3: You're like no, yeah, like what the fuck are you 1378 01:14:35,520 --> 01:14:40,160 Speaker 3: talking about? Yeah? So yeah, like I I hate it. 1379 01:14:40,200 --> 01:14:43,280 Speaker 3: I hate it so fucking much, you know. So, as 1380 01:14:43,280 --> 01:14:44,760 Speaker 3: we said, like this is the time of is the 1381 01:14:44,800 --> 01:14:47,800 Speaker 3: American version of PDD. If you're in the US, you've 1382 01:14:47,800 --> 01:14:50,040 Speaker 3: probably seen tim owas. Apparently they're not that many of 1383 01:14:50,080 --> 01:14:51,920 Speaker 3: them in like other countries, Like I have British friends 1384 01:14:51,920 --> 01:14:53,240 Speaker 3: who are just like, what the fuck are you talking 1385 01:14:53,280 --> 01:14:53,600 Speaker 3: about me? 1386 01:14:53,640 --> 01:14:56,400 Speaker 4: And I've never heard of TIMMU. Before the Super Bowl, 1387 01:14:56,960 --> 01:14:58,360 Speaker 4: for whatever it's worth. 1388 01:14:58,439 --> 01:15:02,479 Speaker 3: The big play where they were advertising was YouTube. But 1389 01:15:02,520 --> 01:15:05,240 Speaker 3: if you're watching YouTube without an app blocker, don't I 1390 01:15:05,280 --> 01:15:07,840 Speaker 3: can I don't know if I can legally recommend you 1391 01:15:07,920 --> 01:15:10,840 Speaker 3: Probably probably that's on your phone. I can get it. 1392 01:15:10,840 --> 01:15:13,240 Speaker 3: It's an app. I don't do it. I don't know 1393 01:15:13,280 --> 01:15:15,960 Speaker 3: if it may be legal, it may not be. I 1394 01:15:15,960 --> 01:15:18,559 Speaker 3: can't say I will never advocate breaking the law. 1395 01:15:19,040 --> 01:15:21,800 Speaker 4: No, definitely, buy YouTube. Yeah yeah, yeah, that's definitely the 1396 01:15:22,000 --> 01:15:22,559 Speaker 4: way to go. 1397 01:15:22,880 --> 01:15:27,639 Speaker 3: Absolutely. But you know, so like they okay, like most 1398 01:15:27,680 --> 01:15:29,920 Speaker 3: famously yeah, as you're saying, like, so they spent twenty 1399 01:15:29,960 --> 01:15:33,120 Speaker 3: seven million dollars buying three Super Bowl ads. It's all 1400 01:15:33,240 --> 01:15:37,880 Speaker 3: the same ad and it sucked. But you know, okay, 1401 01:15:37,920 --> 01:15:40,479 Speaker 3: this is only a fraction of their fucking budget. 1402 01:15:40,560 --> 01:15:40,760 Speaker 5: Right. 1403 01:15:41,240 --> 01:15:43,400 Speaker 3: Here's from the Wall Street Journal quote. Ten MoU's marketing 1404 01:15:43,479 --> 01:15:47,200 Speaker 3: budget reached one point seven billion dollars in twenty twenty three, 1405 01:15:47,200 --> 01:15:50,000 Speaker 3: and that figure will grow to nearly three billion in 1406 01:15:50,080 --> 01:15:54,040 Speaker 3: twenty twenty four. JP Morgan's analyst estimate. Last year, ten 1407 01:15:54,040 --> 01:15:57,000 Speaker 3: MoU's marketing spending contributed to an average loss of seven 1408 01:15:57,080 --> 01:16:01,360 Speaker 3: dollars per quarter, according to Goldman Sax estimates. They are 1409 01:16:01,400 --> 01:16:05,519 Speaker 3: buying so many ads they are literally driving other companies 1410 01:16:05,560 --> 01:16:08,840 Speaker 3: out of the ad market. LIKETCCO has been talking about 1411 01:16:08,840 --> 01:16:10,680 Speaker 3: how they can't afford to run ads because ads are 1412 01:16:10,680 --> 01:16:13,519 Speaker 3: getting too expensive. Because they're buying so many fucking ads. 1413 01:16:14,640 --> 01:16:19,360 Speaker 3: Here's Reuter's quote. US companies dependent on commercial spending or 1414 01:16:19,479 --> 01:16:20,760 Speaker 3: spending on commercials, not. 1415 01:16:22,040 --> 01:16:27,040 Speaker 4: Yeah, commercial spending. They are buying commercials, yes, yeah, like Facebook, 1416 01:16:27,120 --> 01:16:29,639 Speaker 4: they say Meta. I refuse to fucking call that company Beta, 1417 01:16:29,720 --> 01:16:32,559 Speaker 4: like fuck that shit. Their Facebook are being saved by 1418 01:16:32,640 --> 01:16:36,400 Speaker 4: Chinese retailers like Temu and she In. They represent ten 1419 01:16:36,520 --> 01:16:39,400 Speaker 4: per those two companies, just Temu and g In represent 1420 01:16:39,560 --> 01:16:44,360 Speaker 4: ten percent of Meta's revenue last year. The Facebook owners said. 1421 01:16:46,040 --> 01:16:48,680 Speaker 3: So Temu is hemorrhaging money right now in order to 1422 01:16:48,720 --> 01:16:51,240 Speaker 3: do this right, JP Morgan thinks they're losing three billion 1423 01:16:51,320 --> 01:16:53,760 Speaker 3: a year. But they also project and to be fair, 1424 01:16:53,800 --> 01:16:58,840 Speaker 3: these projections, these projections are wrong so many of the time, 1425 01:16:58,880 --> 01:17:00,519 Speaker 3: of so much of the time. But the projecting the 1426 01:17:00,520 --> 01:17:02,479 Speaker 3: tenet will be making three point five billion a year 1427 01:17:02,520 --> 01:17:05,640 Speaker 3: in twenty twenty seven. And all of this raises the 1428 01:17:05,720 --> 01:17:08,920 Speaker 3: question why, and to answer that, we need to get 1429 01:17:08,920 --> 01:17:14,320 Speaker 3: into Chinese development economics. So the Chinese economy has a problem, 1430 01:17:14,320 --> 01:17:16,880 Speaker 3: and this is a problem that the CCP is known 1431 01:17:16,880 --> 01:17:19,200 Speaker 3: about for a long time. It's the problem of turning 1432 01:17:19,360 --> 01:17:22,360 Speaker 3: a sort of like a low on the value chain 1433 01:17:22,439 --> 01:17:25,800 Speaker 3: like manufacturing economy into a consumption driven economy. Now, the 1434 01:17:25,880 --> 01:17:29,400 Speaker 3: problem with transitioning into a consumption driven economy is that 1435 01:17:29,600 --> 01:17:33,160 Speaker 3: people don't have enough money to boost consumer demand. The 1436 01:17:33,160 --> 01:17:36,559 Speaker 3: Marxist way of saying this is that under capitalism, both 1437 01:17:36,640 --> 01:17:40,479 Speaker 3: output and consumption are double determined by your wage. Right, 1438 01:17:40,960 --> 01:17:45,240 Speaker 3: Your wage determines both firm output and also how much 1439 01:17:45,280 --> 01:17:48,879 Speaker 3: you can consume. Right, in non Marxist terms, Oh no, 1440 01:17:48,880 --> 01:17:50,760 Speaker 3: no one has enough money to buy things. They did 1441 01:17:50,760 --> 01:17:55,800 Speaker 3: you consumer economy by brother in Christ, You set the wages. Okay, 1442 01:17:56,000 --> 01:17:58,800 Speaker 3: where are the fuck? Yes? Where the fuck are these 1443 01:17:58,800 --> 01:18:01,000 Speaker 3: people supposed to be getting money from to buy your 1444 01:18:01,000 --> 01:18:04,559 Speaker 3: shit if you won't give them more money? Like wait, wait, wait, 1445 01:18:06,200 --> 01:18:09,040 Speaker 3: so you know you can't do this by just making 1446 01:18:09,080 --> 01:18:11,160 Speaker 3: them like work more hours. You know, you can work 1447 01:18:11,200 --> 01:18:14,240 Speaker 3: people for like twelve fifteen, like twenty hours a day, 1448 01:18:14,280 --> 01:18:16,920 Speaker 3: but there's only twenty four hours a day. Like, there's 1449 01:18:16,960 --> 01:18:20,439 Speaker 3: an actual definite there's an actual definite limit to the 1450 01:18:20,479 --> 01:18:23,599 Speaker 3: amount of exploitation you can do via increasing labor hours. 1451 01:18:23,600 --> 01:18:27,760 Speaker 3: This is this has always been capitalism's problem, right, Like 1452 01:18:28,520 --> 01:18:31,400 Speaker 3: the sort of rapacity of capitalism has hit the secular 1453 01:18:31,439 --> 01:18:34,200 Speaker 3: limit of time itself. So the solution to this is 1454 01:18:34,240 --> 01:18:36,719 Speaker 3: to expand into new markets where consumers have more money, 1455 01:18:36,880 --> 01:18:41,160 Speaker 3: which is to say the US. So PDD initially targeted 1456 01:18:41,200 --> 01:18:43,800 Speaker 3: like poor rural Chinese workers, right, and this is kind 1457 01:18:43,840 --> 01:18:45,880 Speaker 3: of the same group that Temu was targeting in the now. 1458 01:18:45,920 --> 01:18:48,840 Speaker 3: In the US, their initial base is people who like 1459 01:18:48,840 --> 01:18:51,840 Speaker 3: buy from dollar stores, but they've been spreading rapidly. Temu 1460 01:18:51,920 --> 01:18:54,200 Speaker 3: has outpaced she In to become the second largest shopping 1461 01:18:54,200 --> 01:18:59,120 Speaker 3: app in the US. But the important thing really, yeah, yeah, 1462 01:18:59,400 --> 01:19:01,559 Speaker 3: there's not gonna be on Amazon. Yeah, they're like they're 1463 01:19:01,600 --> 01:19:04,960 Speaker 3: destroying Shiin, Like wow, yeah, I did not know they 1464 01:19:04,960 --> 01:19:08,360 Speaker 3: were that popular. Yeah, I mean, like estimates are like, well, 1465 01:19:08,439 --> 01:19:10,360 Speaker 3: I've seen simens to say they have one hundred million years. 1466 01:19:10,360 --> 01:19:12,040 Speaker 3: I don't buy that. I've seen that the estimates that 1467 01:19:12,080 --> 01:19:14,040 Speaker 3: I think I'm more reliable of like fifty four million 1468 01:19:14,080 --> 01:19:17,080 Speaker 3: years in the US. Although well, the thing is we 1469 01:19:17,120 --> 01:19:19,960 Speaker 3: don't we don't have post super Bowl numbers between fifty 1470 01:19:19,960 --> 01:19:22,080 Speaker 3: and well, I think I think it's like fifty. I 1471 01:19:22,560 --> 01:19:24,800 Speaker 3: wouldn't I wouldn't accept one hundred million ones. I think 1472 01:19:24,800 --> 01:19:27,479 Speaker 3: that's bullshit. We don't have good post super Bowl data yet. 1473 01:19:27,880 --> 01:19:31,320 Speaker 3: Kind of the issue. But yeah, they're they're they're clobbering people. 1474 01:19:31,560 --> 01:19:35,559 Speaker 3: But the important thing about specifically the American market for 1475 01:19:36,360 --> 01:19:42,200 Speaker 3: Temu is that like the kind the equivalent person who 1476 01:19:42,200 --> 01:19:45,120 Speaker 3: shops at a dollar store in the US still has 1477 01:19:45,280 --> 01:19:49,320 Speaker 3: unfathomably more money than that same person in China, because 1478 01:19:49,360 --> 01:19:51,280 Speaker 3: partially this is because the strength of the American dollar. 1479 01:19:51,320 --> 01:19:55,720 Speaker 3: Partially this is because American wages are just like unfathomably 1480 01:19:55,840 --> 01:19:59,240 Speaker 3: higher than Chinese wages, and that that's that's that's true 1481 01:19:59,320 --> 01:20:02,040 Speaker 3: even if you like, even when you account for like 1482 01:20:02,120 --> 01:20:05,800 Speaker 3: the relative strength dollar to the yawn. So you know, 1483 01:20:06,920 --> 01:20:10,439 Speaker 3: the other kind of important thing about Timmy strategy is 1484 01:20:10,479 --> 01:20:13,640 Speaker 3: that they've been using this kind of like loophole that 1485 01:20:13,680 --> 01:20:15,759 Speaker 3: will set up a US customs law to allow people 1486 01:20:15,760 --> 01:20:18,720 Speaker 3: to like bring presents home from countries. So like if 1487 01:20:18,720 --> 01:20:20,400 Speaker 3: you go to another country and you bring a present home, 1488 01:20:20,439 --> 01:20:22,120 Speaker 3: it's worth less than two hundred dollars, you go through 1489 01:20:22,120 --> 01:20:23,800 Speaker 3: like an expedited customs thing, and you don't have to 1490 01:20:23,840 --> 01:20:24,640 Speaker 3: pay tariffs on it. 1491 01:20:24,960 --> 01:20:30,880 Speaker 8: Yeah, So Timu and like a whole bunch of these 1492 01:20:30,920 --> 01:20:33,880 Speaker 8: companies just ship every single one of their packages in 1493 01:20:34,400 --> 01:20:37,599 Speaker 8: quantities where it's like seven hundred and ninety nine dollars, 1494 01:20:37,760 --> 01:20:38,840 Speaker 8: not eight hundred. 1495 01:20:38,560 --> 01:20:43,760 Speaker 3: Dollars ye yeah, yeah, yeah, And it's really funny. It's 1496 01:20:43,760 --> 01:20:46,519 Speaker 3: set off this like a massive intra capitalist war because 1497 01:20:46,520 --> 01:20:48,360 Speaker 3: like a bunch of like like American right wingers, like 1498 01:20:48,400 --> 01:20:50,559 Speaker 3: American manufacturers, like the Republican Party are like, we need 1499 01:20:50,600 --> 01:20:52,719 Speaker 3: to close this gap, but then all of the fucking 1500 01:20:52,760 --> 01:20:55,040 Speaker 3: shipping companies are like, no, this is a vital part 1501 01:20:55,080 --> 01:20:57,479 Speaker 3: of the American consumer economy. And there's this like giant 1502 01:20:57,520 --> 01:21:03,000 Speaker 3: war going on like both in Congress, like like in 1503 01:21:03,040 --> 01:21:05,679 Speaker 3: the press over whether they should where they should close 1504 01:21:05,680 --> 01:21:11,240 Speaker 3: as loophole now, you know. On the other hand, like 1505 01:21:11,280 --> 01:21:13,960 Speaker 3: there are real challenges to Temu being the first like 1506 01:21:14,320 --> 01:21:17,200 Speaker 3: company to break into the like Chinese companies like really 1507 01:21:17,320 --> 01:21:20,320 Speaker 3: truly break into the American market like she and has 1508 01:21:20,400 --> 01:21:23,720 Speaker 3: done well, but they haven't like they have they have 1509 01:21:23,800 --> 01:21:25,720 Speaker 3: They're not like a rival for it to Amazon, right, 1510 01:21:25,840 --> 01:21:27,960 Speaker 3: Like they're not big enough to like knock off one 1511 01:21:27,960 --> 01:21:31,880 Speaker 3: of the sort of like American tech giants. And Temu's 1512 01:21:31,920 --> 01:21:35,800 Speaker 3: problem is that. Okay, so if you compare Temu to 1513 01:21:36,000 --> 01:21:39,240 Speaker 3: to PDD, right, the Chinese version, PDD is supposed to 1514 01:21:39,240 --> 01:21:41,320 Speaker 3: be about spreading through word of mouth, right, It's it 1515 01:21:41,400 --> 01:21:45,120 Speaker 3: spreads by like someone in your you know, you as 1516 01:21:45,120 --> 01:21:48,360 Speaker 3: as if someone buying something from PDD taps your entire 1517 01:21:48,439 --> 01:21:50,160 Speaker 3: friend group and your family to get them to buy 1518 01:21:50,160 --> 01:21:50,880 Speaker 3: something for cheaper. 1519 01:21:51,360 --> 01:21:51,519 Speaker 7: Right. 1520 01:21:51,920 --> 01:21:53,000 Speaker 3: But the problem is that. 1521 01:21:52,920 --> 01:21:56,800 Speaker 4: Like fucking night, I forgot how this whole structure is. 1522 01:21:56,840 --> 01:21:59,160 Speaker 3: It's so bad. But the thing is, like Americans don't 1523 01:21:59,200 --> 01:22:00,960 Speaker 3: really do that, like they're been attempts to do like 1524 01:22:01,040 --> 01:22:03,760 Speaker 3: group on things they never worked. And Americans also don't 1525 01:22:03,800 --> 01:22:08,799 Speaker 3: group shop right because we're I don't know more weird 1526 01:22:09,240 --> 01:22:09,800 Speaker 3: b wok. 1527 01:22:10,040 --> 01:22:12,040 Speaker 4: There's just a fucking this is not a thing but 1528 01:22:12,200 --> 01:22:15,880 Speaker 4: full full of a lot more like individualistic impulse science. 1529 01:22:16,600 --> 01:22:18,680 Speaker 4: That is that is kind of a large part of 1530 01:22:19,520 --> 01:22:23,000 Speaker 4: what the American shopping classes is built off of. 1531 01:22:23,520 --> 01:22:25,799 Speaker 3: And and this isn't This is an issue for Temu 1532 01:22:25,920 --> 01:22:30,080 Speaker 3: because like they don't have the word of mouth thing 1533 01:22:30,120 --> 01:22:32,240 Speaker 3: that drove them in China, so they're relying on just 1534 01:22:32,320 --> 01:22:35,920 Speaker 3: top down like like massive ad buys and stuff, and 1535 01:22:35,960 --> 01:22:37,800 Speaker 3: there's kind of a limit. And it's something that that 1536 01:22:38,040 --> 01:22:41,479 Speaker 3: Temu understands, right, Like this is you know the whole 1537 01:22:42,160 --> 01:22:44,120 Speaker 3: there's a whole thing in the Chinese tech industry about 1538 01:22:44,160 --> 01:22:47,479 Speaker 3: the power of being able to leverage people's like private networks, right, 1539 01:22:48,240 --> 01:22:50,639 Speaker 3: Timu understands, but they don't have a way to break 1540 01:22:50,680 --> 01:22:53,080 Speaker 3: into the American market because it just doesn't work like 1541 01:22:53,080 --> 01:22:56,439 Speaker 3: the Chinese market. So instead they're like buying three Super 1542 01:22:56,439 --> 01:22:59,439 Speaker 3: Bowl ads right now. There's another issue, which is that 1543 01:22:59,479 --> 01:23:02,040 Speaker 3: the goods that they sell suck ass and they break instantly. 1544 01:23:03,880 --> 01:23:07,519 Speaker 3: You know, that's an issue, but I don't know it's 1545 01:23:07,560 --> 01:23:10,400 Speaker 3: the US. Lots of things suck and break instantly, but 1546 01:23:10,439 --> 01:23:12,320 Speaker 3: like it is only that's been driving sort of negative 1547 01:23:12,320 --> 01:23:14,120 Speaker 3: sentiment from people who've used it, is they're like they 1548 01:23:14,120 --> 01:23:16,720 Speaker 3: buy something and it's just like sucks, and they're you know, 1549 01:23:16,760 --> 01:23:19,800 Speaker 3: they're unhappy about it. The thing I think is maybe 1550 01:23:19,840 --> 01:23:22,800 Speaker 3: the biggest problem is that their delivery times are really 1551 01:23:22,800 --> 01:23:26,479 Speaker 3: long by American standards because they're they're shipping overseas. Temu 1552 01:23:26,520 --> 01:23:29,960 Speaker 3: had to build an actual logistics infrastructure where PDD like didn't, 1553 01:23:30,360 --> 01:23:33,560 Speaker 3: right because PDD is just using like Chinese versions of 1554 01:23:33,600 --> 01:23:37,439 Speaker 3: FedEx or whatever, right, And Temu's kind of doing that 1555 01:23:37,960 --> 01:23:40,200 Speaker 3: but in you know, in order to make it convenient 1556 01:23:40,200 --> 01:23:42,680 Speaker 3: for Chinese sellers. The way that they the way that 1557 01:23:42,680 --> 01:23:44,439 Speaker 3: they've sort of like set this up is they have 1558 01:23:44,520 --> 01:23:48,880 Speaker 3: a warehouse in Guandong, and every seller like ships it 1559 01:23:48,920 --> 01:23:51,640 Speaker 3: to this warehouse and then Temu deals with getting it 1560 01:23:51,640 --> 01:23:55,439 Speaker 3: shipped overseas. The problem is that this is really slow, right, 1561 01:23:55,479 --> 01:23:59,640 Speaker 3: It takes like two weeks for things to show up. 1562 01:23:59,680 --> 01:24:02,120 Speaker 3: And that's not out that's slow by like normal standards, 1563 01:24:02,120 --> 01:24:05,200 Speaker 3: but this is the US American standards. That is like 1564 01:24:05,479 --> 01:24:09,439 Speaker 3: a tortoise nightmarishly slow. Because we have gotten used to 1565 01:24:09,920 --> 01:24:13,840 Speaker 3: a level i'd say gratification, but like, yeah, like this 1566 01:24:13,880 --> 01:24:16,160 Speaker 3: is a level of power that was previously reserved for 1567 01:24:16,280 --> 01:24:19,920 Speaker 3: like Chinese emperors, and we fucking use it every day 1568 01:24:20,160 --> 01:24:26,320 Speaker 3: to order fucking nail clippers from Amazon, right, or in. 1569 01:24:26,240 --> 01:24:28,000 Speaker 4: My case, so a whole bunch of materials to build 1570 01:24:28,000 --> 01:24:30,160 Speaker 4: a black lodge, which I will then return as soon 1571 01:24:30,160 --> 01:24:31,080 Speaker 4: as my party is over. 1572 01:24:31,920 --> 01:24:36,160 Speaker 3: Incredible, you know, And this is this is a This 1573 01:24:36,240 --> 01:24:38,240 Speaker 3: is also something that's kind of new for Temu because 1574 01:24:38,240 --> 01:24:41,840 Speaker 3: PDD was built on being able to doing sales or 1575 01:24:41,960 --> 01:24:44,280 Speaker 3: fast enough they could sell fruit to people. Right, do 1576 01:24:44,320 --> 01:24:47,200 Speaker 3: you know how hard it is to sell fucking fresh 1577 01:24:47,280 --> 01:24:50,080 Speaker 3: fruit to people? That's like it legitimately really difficult. Well yeah, 1578 01:24:50,280 --> 01:24:50,679 Speaker 3: you can't. 1579 01:24:50,720 --> 01:24:54,400 Speaker 4: You can't ship. You can't have a two week ship 1580 01:24:54,520 --> 01:24:55,800 Speaker 4: for ca. 1581 01:24:56,120 --> 01:24:59,760 Speaker 3: But why it is I mean, it doesn't do a 1582 01:24:59,760 --> 01:25:01,479 Speaker 3: bunch of you have you have to have an actual 1583 01:25:01,520 --> 01:25:03,519 Speaker 3: logistics infrastructure set up for it, right. You can't just 1584 01:25:03,520 --> 01:25:04,920 Speaker 3: ship it in like an Amazon bomb. 1585 01:25:05,000 --> 01:25:06,800 Speaker 4: They have to be they have to be like specifically 1586 01:25:06,840 --> 01:25:08,360 Speaker 4: ripening along the Yeah. 1587 01:25:08,240 --> 01:25:10,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, and and and and tims also up to 1588 01:25:10,400 --> 01:25:11,840 Speaker 3: do that, right. And this is and this is an 1589 01:25:11,840 --> 01:25:14,840 Speaker 3: issue with all of their stuff because you know, they're 1590 01:25:14,880 --> 01:25:16,960 Speaker 3: they're trying to do direct to consumer sales. But the 1591 01:25:17,000 --> 01:25:19,559 Speaker 3: thing is in China it's really fast, and here it's slow. 1592 01:25:21,080 --> 01:25:23,479 Speaker 3: And the upside for Tamu is that their stuff is 1593 01:25:23,520 --> 01:25:27,439 Speaker 3: really cheap, right, It's unbelievably cheap. And you know, obviously 1594 01:25:27,479 --> 01:25:29,560 Speaker 3: they're they're losing money on the sales, and most of 1595 01:25:29,600 --> 01:25:32,120 Speaker 3: the money they're losing on the sales is from their 1596 01:25:32,160 --> 01:25:34,960 Speaker 3: ad spending, not from the actual sales. And this is 1597 01:25:36,520 --> 01:25:38,559 Speaker 3: this is where you get into again the really bleak 1598 01:25:38,640 --> 01:25:41,840 Speaker 3: part about this where Okay, so why are these why 1599 01:25:41,840 --> 01:25:45,160 Speaker 3: are these prices so low? And part of its tech 1600 01:25:45,160 --> 01:25:49,599 Speaker 3: money subsidy, but a lot of it is just labor, 1601 01:25:49,840 --> 01:25:56,000 Speaker 3: just pure, pure unrivaled labor exploitation. You know, when with 1602 01:25:56,000 --> 01:25:59,600 Speaker 3: with the Chinese workers movement, like as like a a 1603 01:25:59,680 --> 01:26:02,800 Speaker 3: sort of like collective mass movement just completely broken by 1604 01:26:02,880 --> 01:26:06,200 Speaker 3: Tienamen and then again dream like the crackdowns through the 1605 01:26:06,240 --> 01:26:09,960 Speaker 3: twenty tens that wiped out whatever sort of like classical 1606 01:26:09,960 --> 01:26:12,800 Speaker 3: workers movement style thing was may have popped up from 1607 01:26:12,840 --> 01:26:17,760 Speaker 3: the strikes in twenty eleven, Like there's there's no there's 1608 01:26:17,800 --> 01:26:20,960 Speaker 3: no mass countervailing force in Chinese politics to try to 1609 01:26:21,040 --> 01:26:24,840 Speaker 3: raise wages, like independent union organizing is illegal. You will 1610 01:26:24,840 --> 01:26:27,680 Speaker 3: get arrested. The actual unions that exist, like they all 1611 01:26:27,720 --> 01:26:30,719 Speaker 3: trying of union federation doesn't do shit. We don't really 1612 01:26:30,840 --> 01:26:33,880 Speaker 3: have that kind of like fake union thing here. It's 1613 01:26:33,880 --> 01:26:35,519 Speaker 3: like it's like a different but you know, like they're 1614 01:26:35,600 --> 01:26:37,840 Speaker 3: they're I don't know this is this is this is 1615 01:26:37,840 --> 01:26:39,240 Speaker 3: maybe not the time for me to try to explain 1616 01:26:39,320 --> 01:26:42,040 Speaker 3: China's union system. Like the unions are fucking bullshit. They 1617 01:26:42,040 --> 01:26:44,599 Speaker 3: don't do anything. Like if you go to them and 1618 01:26:44,640 --> 01:26:46,720 Speaker 3: be like my wages are too low, they'll try to 1619 01:26:46,720 --> 01:26:49,519 Speaker 3: get you to like negotiate with the company directly, right 1620 01:26:49,520 --> 01:26:52,160 Speaker 3: like like as an individual, and like it's they're nonsense. 1621 01:26:52,160 --> 01:26:56,439 Speaker 3: They're completely useless, and you know the results of this 1622 01:26:56,560 --> 01:26:59,200 Speaker 3: and the results of just like the incredible poverty of 1623 01:26:59,520 --> 01:27:03,640 Speaker 3: the Chinese working class and the fact that you know 1624 01:27:03,680 --> 01:27:05,640 Speaker 3: a lot of Chinese migrant workers, who are people who 1625 01:27:05,640 --> 01:27:07,760 Speaker 3: actually making these goods. So a lot of some of 1626 01:27:07,760 --> 01:27:09,320 Speaker 3: its world workers, some of its migrant workers. But a 1627 01:27:09,360 --> 01:27:11,439 Speaker 3: lot of these people's wages are lower than they otherwise 1628 01:27:11,439 --> 01:27:15,439 Speaker 3: would be because they're drawing revenue off of like they're off 1629 01:27:15,479 --> 01:27:17,240 Speaker 3: of of of like the plots of land that their 1630 01:27:17,280 --> 01:27:20,479 Speaker 3: family has, like back in the countryside, when they like 1631 01:27:20,560 --> 01:27:23,360 Speaker 3: when they they like migrate to another city to find 1632 01:27:23,400 --> 01:27:25,960 Speaker 3: a job. Yeah, so like all of these factors are 1633 01:27:25,960 --> 01:27:29,640 Speaker 3: just institutionally like smashing the price of like like like 1634 01:27:29,760 --> 01:27:34,439 Speaker 3: smashing like wages, and there's no there's no fucking there's 1635 01:27:34,479 --> 01:27:36,920 Speaker 3: not there's nothing really there to resist them and and 1636 01:27:36,960 --> 01:27:38,479 Speaker 3: act like you know, it's not like the Chinese working 1637 01:27:38,479 --> 01:27:41,639 Speaker 3: class like completely takes it lying down right, but it's 1638 01:27:41,640 --> 01:27:45,439 Speaker 3: like the resistant strategies are trying to work as little 1639 01:27:45,439 --> 01:27:48,719 Speaker 3: as possible. But that doesn't that's you know, and that's 1640 01:27:48,720 --> 01:27:50,680 Speaker 3: something that can be very effective in the sense of 1641 01:27:50,720 --> 01:27:53,040 Speaker 3: like you're working a lot less, but it's not something 1642 01:27:53,080 --> 01:27:58,200 Speaker 3: that drives up like wages. And so when when you're 1643 01:27:58,240 --> 01:28:00,439 Speaker 3: looking at Temu and you're seeing a pair of Janes 1644 01:28:00,439 --> 01:28:04,559 Speaker 3: for two dollars. Like what you are seeing is the 1645 01:28:04,680 --> 01:28:07,240 Speaker 3: raw exploitation of the Chinese working class. And this is 1646 01:28:07,280 --> 01:28:08,840 Speaker 3: also true of like the rest of the fucking shit 1647 01:28:08,840 --> 01:28:11,439 Speaker 3: you buy from China, right, Like almost all of the 1648 01:28:11,520 --> 01:28:14,479 Speaker 3: price of like a shirt that you're buying, I mean, 1649 01:28:14,760 --> 01:28:19,000 Speaker 3: Chinese textile manufacturing is kind of like not what it 1650 01:28:19,120 --> 01:28:20,800 Speaker 3: used to be, right but like you know, but like 1651 01:28:20,920 --> 01:28:24,760 Speaker 3: you're you're buying like fucking some bullshit from China. Like 1652 01:28:24,760 --> 01:28:26,920 Speaker 3: if you're buying from like another drop shipping company, right, 1653 01:28:29,360 --> 01:28:31,800 Speaker 3: like the thing you're actually paying for, you're paying the 1654 01:28:31,920 --> 01:28:34,160 Speaker 3: drop shipping company. You're not fucking paying the workers. They're 1655 01:28:34,160 --> 01:28:36,240 Speaker 3: not they're fucking not making shit all like all of 1656 01:28:36,240 --> 01:28:38,760 Speaker 3: the stuff that's like, I mean, it's not like one 1657 01:28:38,800 --> 01:28:41,320 Speaker 3: hundred percent, like a huge portion of of the fact 1658 01:28:41,360 --> 01:28:44,680 Speaker 3: that the price is higher on non Temu sites is 1659 01:28:44,920 --> 01:28:49,040 Speaker 3: just like it's just markups. Because this is this is 1660 01:28:49,080 --> 01:28:53,080 Speaker 3: just what the Chinese economy is. It's just sort of 1661 01:28:53,120 --> 01:28:57,200 Speaker 3: like it's you know, it's it's it's it's unbelievable exploitation. 1662 01:28:57,320 --> 01:29:00,439 Speaker 3: And this brings us to the thing we're gonna today 1663 01:29:00,439 --> 01:29:02,519 Speaker 3: on which is does Temo use slave labor. 1664 01:29:03,840 --> 01:29:10,599 Speaker 8: Oh oh okay, And the answer is probably, but it's 1665 01:29:10,640 --> 01:29:11,559 Speaker 8: hard to tell. 1666 01:29:12,640 --> 01:29:15,200 Speaker 3: So this has been a big thing because Tim is 1667 01:29:15,200 --> 01:29:17,120 Speaker 3: one of the companies that the State Department brought up 1668 01:29:17,120 --> 01:29:20,439 Speaker 3: when they were doing their investigations into like like Sheian 1669 01:29:20,600 --> 01:29:23,639 Speaker 3: was the other one into like are these companies using 1670 01:29:23,720 --> 01:29:27,760 Speaker 3: Shing John's slave labor and you know this is labor 1671 01:29:27,800 --> 01:29:32,080 Speaker 3: from people put in in the fucking camps. I think 1672 01:29:32,120 --> 01:29:35,400 Speaker 3: the answer is probably because I mean, so the thing 1673 01:29:35,439 --> 01:29:37,720 Speaker 3: is the State Department doesn't have any actual evidence, right, 1674 01:29:37,800 --> 01:29:40,760 Speaker 3: like they're all and they're they're doing this incredibly what 1675 01:29:40,800 --> 01:29:42,600 Speaker 3: we'll get into this in a second, Like, you know, 1676 01:29:42,680 --> 01:29:44,800 Speaker 3: obviously they're doing this because this is like this is 1677 01:29:44,800 --> 01:29:47,839 Speaker 3: an intra like capitalist feud thing, right. The State Department's 1678 01:29:47,880 --> 01:29:50,400 Speaker 3: talking about this because they're pissed at China. Yeah, this 1679 01:29:50,479 --> 01:29:53,720 Speaker 3: is like a nastic project for the United States. Yeah, 1680 01:29:53,800 --> 01:29:58,000 Speaker 3: but Comma, it's also probably true because these like and 1681 01:29:58,000 --> 01:30:00,160 Speaker 3: and this this is like the thing specifically with with 1682 01:30:00,240 --> 01:30:02,439 Speaker 3: PDD that we've been talking about is that they don't 1683 01:30:03,600 --> 01:30:08,040 Speaker 3: intimus Like they don't vet the sellers of stuff, right, 1684 01:30:08,160 --> 01:30:10,680 Speaker 3: Like we talked about last episode that like people were 1685 01:30:10,680 --> 01:30:12,880 Speaker 3: selling sleeping pills as date rate drugs, right, they don't 1686 01:30:12,880 --> 01:30:17,080 Speaker 3: fucking vet it at all. So yeah, probably, like quite possibly. Yeah, 1687 01:30:17,080 --> 01:30:18,800 Speaker 3: the stuff, the stuff that they're selling from Shing Jun, 1688 01:30:19,040 --> 01:30:22,080 Speaker 3: and they have a pretty large presence there, like was 1689 01:30:22,240 --> 01:30:27,200 Speaker 3: using sort of like prison slave labor from the camps there. However, Comma, 1690 01:30:27,320 --> 01:30:30,200 Speaker 3: we can't talk about prison slave labor without talking about 1691 01:30:30,200 --> 01:30:33,240 Speaker 3: the fact that fucking every goddamn US firm also uses 1692 01:30:33,280 --> 01:30:36,519 Speaker 3: prison slave labor. Everyone from fucking McDonald's to Starbucks, to 1693 01:30:36,560 --> 01:30:40,040 Speaker 3: Walgreens to JC Penny, like fucking every every company, every 1694 01:30:40,280 --> 01:30:43,160 Speaker 3: American company you can fucking think of, uses slave labor 1695 01:30:43,280 --> 01:30:45,400 Speaker 3: or their slave labor in their in their supply chain. 1696 01:30:45,760 --> 01:30:49,519 Speaker 3: And they're using slave labor because in the US, under 1697 01:30:49,520 --> 01:30:52,320 Speaker 3: the thirteenth Amendment, slavery is legal as long as the 1698 01:30:52,400 --> 01:30:55,520 Speaker 3: person as long as the person being enslaved is incarcerated. 1699 01:30:56,280 --> 01:30:59,840 Speaker 3: So you know, like it doesn't fucking matter, like this 1700 01:30:59,880 --> 01:31:01,360 Speaker 3: is this is this is the problem. It doesn't matter 1701 01:31:01,360 --> 01:31:03,640 Speaker 3: whether you buy from the US or China. Right, Like, 1702 01:31:04,840 --> 01:31:08,720 Speaker 3: you're you're getting fucking slave labor. So if you if 1703 01:31:08,760 --> 01:31:13,400 Speaker 3: you want to not do that, your your your only option. 1704 01:31:13,520 --> 01:31:15,080 Speaker 3: If if you do not want to, if you do 1705 01:31:15,160 --> 01:31:18,240 Speaker 3: not want everything you consume, like the food that you eat. 1706 01:31:18,320 --> 01:31:20,720 Speaker 3: If you don't want, like everything that you use in 1707 01:31:20,720 --> 01:31:24,840 Speaker 3: your daily life to be the product of unfathomable human exploitation, 1708 01:31:25,680 --> 01:31:28,679 Speaker 3: your only option is to destroy the monstrous economic system 1709 01:31:28,680 --> 01:31:31,080 Speaker 3: that reduces humans to commodities and tear up the fucking 1710 01:31:31,160 --> 01:31:33,160 Speaker 3: roots of every single one of these companies from San 1711 01:31:33,200 --> 01:31:36,880 Speaker 3: Francisco to Shanghai and burn it to the ground. That's 1712 01:31:37,240 --> 01:31:40,720 Speaker 3: that that those are your options, like, it's not your 1713 01:31:40,720 --> 01:31:45,040 Speaker 3: individual consumer choice, not gonna make it any better that 1714 01:31:45,040 --> 01:31:45,880 Speaker 3: That's what I got. 1715 01:31:46,000 --> 01:31:51,439 Speaker 4: I okay, all right, well god, like was it the 1716 01:31:51,479 --> 01:31:52,559 Speaker 4: Super Bowl great this year? 1717 01:31:52,760 --> 01:31:55,360 Speaker 3: Yeah? What a game? What a game? 1718 01:31:55,680 --> 01:31:58,000 Speaker 4: Almost almost double overtime. 1719 01:31:58,040 --> 01:32:02,120 Speaker 3: That was crazy. I I don't know. That was the 1720 01:32:02,160 --> 01:32:04,639 Speaker 3: worst Chiefs team of all time and they nobody could 1721 01:32:04,680 --> 01:32:07,040 Speaker 3: fucking beat them. We're so dubed. We're going to get 1722 01:32:07,200 --> 01:32:09,639 Speaker 3: Patrick Mahobe is gonna win like a fucking twelve peet. 1723 01:32:10,120 --> 01:32:16,200 Speaker 3: It's so over for every other sports team. Better things 1724 01:32:16,240 --> 01:32:18,320 Speaker 3: aren't possible unless you make them possible. 1725 01:32:32,960 --> 01:32:37,520 Speaker 9: Hello and welcome to it could happen here. Today's episode 1726 01:32:38,320 --> 01:32:40,120 Speaker 9: is one that I wanted to tackle for a while, 1727 01:32:40,160 --> 01:32:42,840 Speaker 9: and there are many different avenues to go about it. 1728 01:32:42,960 --> 01:32:45,280 Speaker 9: I think today's a little bit more focused, and I 1729 01:32:45,320 --> 01:32:49,320 Speaker 9: want to talk about food, Palestinian food, to be exact, 1730 01:32:49,880 --> 01:32:53,960 Speaker 9: and the way that it can be used as resistance 1731 01:32:54,360 --> 01:32:58,679 Speaker 9: as part of a culture that is being eradicated. Essentially, 1732 01:32:59,400 --> 01:33:03,360 Speaker 9: the appropriate of Palestinian surface culture by Israel has been 1733 01:33:03,400 --> 01:33:08,519 Speaker 9: happening ever since Israel's inception. Surface culture encompasses tangible and 1734 01:33:08,640 --> 01:33:12,920 Speaker 9: observable elements that contribute to the distinctive identity of a 1735 01:33:12,960 --> 01:33:18,280 Speaker 9: cultural group or region. Music, food, dress, and other aspects 1736 01:33:18,360 --> 01:33:24,360 Speaker 9: often define a nation's surface culture. Authentic culture evolves organically 1737 01:33:24,520 --> 01:33:28,680 Speaker 9: over generations, at least it's supposed to, but Israel has 1738 01:33:28,720 --> 01:33:32,280 Speaker 9: a sort of top down approach to culture that lacks 1739 01:33:32,360 --> 01:33:38,840 Speaker 9: genuine identifying characteristics. Throughout its history, Israel has either fabricated, annexed, 1740 01:33:38,920 --> 01:33:43,439 Speaker 9: or reconstructed both surface and deep cultural elements through what 1741 01:33:43,560 --> 01:33:48,360 Speaker 9: writer Jamal Khanj describes as quote falsehoods, myths, and fables. 1742 01:33:49,360 --> 01:33:54,040 Speaker 9: Unlike the conventional, slow and organic development of culture, Israeli 1743 01:33:54,080 --> 01:33:58,679 Speaker 9: surface culture came prepackaged by appropriating those very elements from 1744 01:33:58,720 --> 01:34:04,519 Speaker 9: the Age Old to Palestinian culture. A prominent aspect of 1745 01:34:04,560 --> 01:34:08,920 Speaker 9: any society's culture is its local cuisine. In nineteen forty eight, 1746 01:34:09,120 --> 01:34:13,360 Speaker 9: Israel ethnically cleansed Palestine of all non Jewish Palestinians, took 1747 01:34:13,400 --> 01:34:21,720 Speaker 9: over their land and brazenly claimed Palestinian culinary treasures like hummus, falafe, Babylonus, deabule, salad, coscos, 1748 01:34:21,760 --> 01:34:25,599 Speaker 9: frikic i, bimjadda, da peda, bread, and many more. They 1749 01:34:25,680 --> 01:34:29,080 Speaker 9: claimed them all as Israeli. All it took was to 1750 01:34:29,240 --> 01:34:32,799 Speaker 9: identify a Palestinian dish and then add the noun Israeli 1751 01:34:32,960 --> 01:34:38,200 Speaker 9: before its name. Going through the complete list of pleasiarized 1752 01:34:38,200 --> 01:34:42,240 Speaker 9: Palestinian cuisine would take me way, way too long, especially 1753 01:34:42,320 --> 01:34:45,719 Speaker 9: because I feel like Western familiarity with Palestinian cuisine remains 1754 01:34:45,840 --> 01:34:49,360 Speaker 9: somewhat limited. But I do want to explain one example 1755 01:34:49,479 --> 01:34:53,560 Speaker 9: that clearly shows just how foreign appropriated Palestinian food is 1756 01:34:53,640 --> 01:34:54,200 Speaker 9: to Israel. 1757 01:34:54,920 --> 01:34:55,360 Speaker 3: Homos. 1758 01:34:56,200 --> 01:34:59,360 Speaker 9: The Arabic word humos does not exist in these spoken 1759 01:34:59,520 --> 01:35:04,000 Speaker 9: Israeli language Hebrew. Pronouncing the word correctly is actually a 1760 01:35:04,080 --> 01:35:07,040 Speaker 9: bit challenging for most Hebrew speakers because there is no 1761 01:35:07,280 --> 01:35:10,920 Speaker 9: hard ha in the Hebrew alphabet, and in general, when 1762 01:35:11,000 --> 01:35:14,760 Speaker 9: Hebrew speakers attempt to enunciate homos or any Arabic word 1763 01:35:14,840 --> 01:35:18,560 Speaker 9: with the hard ha. They mispronounce it as j in 1764 01:35:18,680 --> 01:35:22,920 Speaker 9: this case homos not homos, and you might have heard 1765 01:35:22,960 --> 01:35:26,479 Speaker 9: this a lot recently. When it comes to Ramas. The 1766 01:35:26,560 --> 01:35:29,919 Speaker 9: full name of the dish homos becomes even more challenging 1767 01:35:30,000 --> 01:35:33,560 Speaker 9: when adding its second part to heini. The h in 1768 01:35:33,640 --> 01:35:36,840 Speaker 9: tahini is also a hard ha, So own Israeli would 1769 01:35:36,840 --> 01:35:42,920 Speaker 9: distort the Palestinian dish homos bitahini to horomos bitachini. This 1770 01:35:43,080 --> 01:35:47,000 Speaker 9: is an insult to the Arabic language, culinary etiquette, and 1771 01:35:47,120 --> 01:35:50,320 Speaker 9: to Arab shifts in the levant kitchen around the world. 1772 01:35:51,120 --> 01:35:55,400 Speaker 9: To paraphrase Palestinian American comedian Moamer, homos does not exist 1773 01:35:55,479 --> 01:35:58,479 Speaker 9: in your lexicon. You can't pronounce it, how can it 1774 01:35:58,600 --> 01:36:02,800 Speaker 9: be your national food. Even more amusing is when an 1775 01:36:02,920 --> 01:36:07,799 Speaker 9: Israeli writer posited that humost and eggplant babyanuche were quote 1776 01:36:07,920 --> 01:36:12,240 Speaker 9: Israeli foods, because that's how the Spanish Inquisition identified secret 1777 01:36:12,360 --> 01:36:15,680 Speaker 9: Jews from the food they ate. A similar hypothesis to 1778 01:36:15,760 --> 01:36:19,400 Speaker 9: this is the argument that foods like homos, fada, felfric, etc. 1779 01:36:20,080 --> 01:36:22,639 Speaker 9: Were brought by Jews who came from the Arab world. 1780 01:36:23,600 --> 01:36:26,760 Speaker 9: Of course, the diverse citizenry of the Arab world or 1781 01:36:26,840 --> 01:36:30,360 Speaker 9: the Muslim slash Arab Spain. It must have had hommost 1782 01:36:30,439 --> 01:36:34,800 Speaker 9: and eggplant in their cultural diet. Jewish citizens cooked and 1783 01:36:35,080 --> 01:36:37,439 Speaker 9: ate the food because they lived in the culture that 1784 01:36:37,640 --> 01:36:40,720 Speaker 9: produced the food, not because they created the food for 1785 01:36:40,920 --> 01:36:44,479 Speaker 9: that culture. Arab Jews also exist, but that would still 1786 01:36:44,560 --> 01:36:46,200 Speaker 9: make all of this food Arabic. 1787 01:36:46,280 --> 01:36:46,519 Speaker 8: Food. 1788 01:36:47,160 --> 01:36:51,800 Speaker 9: Writer Jamad Kanj writes, since Israelis contend that Jews have 1789 01:36:51,920 --> 01:36:54,920 Speaker 9: the right to claim foods brought with them as Israeli food, 1790 01:36:55,360 --> 01:36:58,000 Speaker 9: why don't they claim Russian dishes as Israeli food? 1791 01:36:58,320 --> 01:36:58,519 Speaker 3: Better? 1792 01:36:58,640 --> 01:37:02,559 Speaker 9: Yet, why don't Is from New York claim American steak 1793 01:37:02,800 --> 01:37:06,040 Speaker 9: as an Israeli food too? I know it's kind of 1794 01:37:06,160 --> 01:37:08,840 Speaker 9: said in jest, but he does raise a serious question. 1795 01:37:09,280 --> 01:37:12,560 Speaker 9: Why does Israel appropriate Palestinian and Arab food but not 1796 01:37:12,720 --> 01:37:16,720 Speaker 9: food brought in from Russia, Europe, Poland or America. It 1797 01:37:16,840 --> 01:37:21,040 Speaker 9: is simply because Palestinian food provides the Israeli top down 1798 01:37:21,120 --> 01:37:25,799 Speaker 9: culture with a distinctive surface cultural identity. It also features 1799 01:37:25,880 --> 01:37:30,280 Speaker 9: atypical exotic culinary dishes to Western kitchens, and this makes 1800 01:37:30,320 --> 01:37:33,479 Speaker 9: it a lot easier to hoodwink the West regarding the 1801 01:37:33,600 --> 01:37:37,720 Speaker 9: origin of their made up surface culture. The gall of 1802 01:37:37,840 --> 01:37:42,160 Speaker 9: claiming Palestinian culinary treasures is not only historically inaccurate, but 1803 01:37:42,280 --> 01:37:46,360 Speaker 9: also offensive and disrespectful. It is quite common for countries 1804 01:37:46,439 --> 01:37:50,759 Speaker 9: to adopt elements of other cultures, including their cuisine. For example, 1805 01:37:50,880 --> 01:37:56,679 Speaker 9: American cuisine celebrates a rich tapestry of international dishes like Asian, Italian, 1806 01:37:56,720 --> 01:38:01,559 Speaker 9: and Mexican food. However, the foods remained appreciated for their origin, 1807 01:38:02,040 --> 01:38:05,880 Speaker 9: with no real urgency to appropriate them as America's national food. 1808 01:38:06,479 --> 01:38:09,320 Speaker 9: Kanj suggests that unlike Israel, it could be that the 1809 01:38:09,439 --> 01:38:12,680 Speaker 9: United States does not have the same obsessive need to 1810 01:38:12,840 --> 01:38:17,519 Speaker 9: fake a culture to justify its existence. In contrast, the 1811 01:38:17,640 --> 01:38:22,519 Speaker 9: Zionist movement envisioned Israel's survival as being predicated on erasing 1812 01:38:22,560 --> 01:38:26,080 Speaker 9: the history of the rich heritage of Palestine's culture. 1813 01:38:25,840 --> 01:38:26,599 Speaker 3: And its people. 1814 01:38:27,760 --> 01:38:30,320 Speaker 9: And all of this is extremely relevant to what is 1815 01:38:30,400 --> 01:38:34,480 Speaker 9: happening right now as Israel continues its genocide of Palestinians. 1816 01:38:35,320 --> 01:38:39,479 Speaker 9: Because genocide and ethnic cleansing isn't just about lives lost. 1817 01:38:40,080 --> 01:38:43,240 Speaker 9: It's not just about physical death, but the death of 1818 01:38:43,320 --> 01:38:46,839 Speaker 9: the very idea of a people. Erasing even the memory 1819 01:38:46,920 --> 01:38:50,519 Speaker 9: of a people and their culture, cuisine, and heritage along 1820 01:38:50,600 --> 01:38:54,519 Speaker 9: with it, it's pretending Palestinians and their culture were never 1821 01:38:54,680 --> 01:38:57,679 Speaker 9: there to begin with. And this has been a narrative 1822 01:38:57,760 --> 01:39:02,400 Speaker 9: that Zionists have said since Israel's inception, the land without 1823 01:39:02,479 --> 01:39:06,439 Speaker 9: people for a people without land. But this appropriation of 1824 01:39:06,560 --> 01:39:10,080 Speaker 9: food in both the physical and cultural ethnic cleansing of Palestine. 1825 01:39:10,320 --> 01:39:13,920 Speaker 9: This didn't start on October seventh. The slow ethnic cleansing 1826 01:39:14,000 --> 01:39:17,040 Speaker 9: of Palestine has been going on for over seventy six years, 1827 01:39:17,800 --> 01:39:21,439 Speaker 9: and the stealing and claiming of Palestinian food as Israeli 1828 01:39:21,800 --> 01:39:25,120 Speaker 9: is intrinsically a part of that. It brings me to 1829 01:39:25,280 --> 01:39:29,280 Speaker 9: the topic of today's episode. Today, my guests are Reem 1830 01:39:29,360 --> 01:39:33,639 Speaker 9: Asial and Jabriel Units. Reim is a multiple award winning 1831 01:39:33,720 --> 01:39:38,400 Speaker 9: Palestinian Syrian speaker and chef based in Oakland, California, working 1832 01:39:38,479 --> 01:39:42,679 Speaker 9: at the intersection of food, community and social justice. Jabrie 1833 01:39:42,920 --> 01:39:45,840 Speaker 9: is a Palestinian filmmaker and artist who has worked with 1834 01:39:45,960 --> 01:39:48,720 Speaker 9: Reim on multiple projects, including a show that we touch 1835 01:39:48,760 --> 01:39:52,479 Speaker 9: on in this episode. With Food as a Tool, we 1836 01:39:52,600 --> 01:39:56,479 Speaker 9: talk about utilizing Arab hospitality to build a strong, resilient 1837 01:39:56,560 --> 01:40:13,080 Speaker 9: community as well as celebrate Palestinian joy. Here it is Hello, everybody, 1838 01:40:13,200 --> 01:40:16,120 Speaker 9: this is Sharen. Welcome to It could happen here today, 1839 01:40:16,640 --> 01:40:19,960 Speaker 9: we're talking to two people I love and respect very 1840 01:40:20,040 --> 01:40:23,600 Speaker 9: much about a topic that I think is really underreported on, 1841 01:40:23,800 --> 01:40:27,120 Speaker 9: and that's food erasure and how it's part of ethnic cleansing. 1842 01:40:27,680 --> 01:40:29,479 Speaker 9: And I think it's a really important topic to talk 1843 01:40:29,520 --> 01:40:32,800 Speaker 9: about right now, especially with the genocide happening in Palestine. 1844 01:40:33,320 --> 01:40:36,320 Speaker 9: So let's just jump right in without further ado. Welcome 1845 01:40:36,720 --> 01:40:38,520 Speaker 9: my guests, Read and Jabidil. 1846 01:40:38,600 --> 01:40:42,360 Speaker 1: Hello, Hello, Hello, Hey. 1847 01:40:43,240 --> 01:40:44,479 Speaker 9: Just so our audience can get to know you guys 1848 01:40:44,479 --> 01:40:46,839 Speaker 9: a little bit better, how about you all introduce yourselves 1849 01:40:46,880 --> 01:40:47,479 Speaker 9: and like what you do? 1850 01:40:47,760 --> 01:40:51,360 Speaker 5: And yeah, yeah, ream you want to go first? 1851 01:40:52,320 --> 01:40:57,679 Speaker 1: Sure. My name is Reem. I am a Bay Area 1852 01:40:57,800 --> 01:41:03,800 Speaker 1: based Palestinian Syria and chef. I own a restaurant called Reems, California, 1853 01:41:04,080 --> 01:41:08,639 Speaker 1: and our mission really is to build community across cultures 1854 01:41:08,680 --> 01:41:11,920 Speaker 1: and experiences through the warmth of Arab bred and hospitality. 1855 01:41:13,040 --> 01:41:15,759 Speaker 5: Beautiful. Wow, that was so succinct. 1856 01:41:16,360 --> 01:41:18,600 Speaker 7: My name is thank you for sesay, so. 1857 01:41:20,240 --> 01:41:21,519 Speaker 1: I've done it a few times, you know. 1858 01:41:21,680 --> 01:41:21,920 Speaker 5: Yeah. 1859 01:41:22,200 --> 01:41:25,120 Speaker 7: My name is jobrel Unis. I'm a filmmaker based in 1860 01:41:25,479 --> 01:41:30,840 Speaker 7: Pasadena and I am also a Palestinian artist in general. 1861 01:41:32,320 --> 01:41:34,639 Speaker 9: Yeah, no relation. Both of our last names are Unis, 1862 01:41:34,680 --> 01:41:37,240 Speaker 9: but that is how we met. A white person said, 1863 01:41:37,360 --> 01:41:39,040 Speaker 9: you guys have the same last name, you should meet, 1864 01:41:39,360 --> 01:41:43,200 Speaker 9: and we met. No, we're friends, But I really like 1865 01:41:43,520 --> 01:41:46,160 Speaker 9: the partnership that you guys have in the collaboration that 1866 01:41:46,200 --> 01:41:49,200 Speaker 9: you guys, from my perspective, have established. Can you guys 1867 01:41:49,200 --> 01:41:51,679 Speaker 9: talk about what you've been working on recently together? 1868 01:41:52,920 --> 01:41:53,160 Speaker 3: Yeah? 1869 01:41:53,720 --> 01:41:57,200 Speaker 7: Yeah, So we've been working on for the past since 1870 01:41:57,240 --> 01:42:02,080 Speaker 7: like twenty twenty one or late twenty We've been working 1871 01:42:02,240 --> 01:42:06,400 Speaker 7: on a documentary series that is named after Reem's cookbook, 1872 01:42:06,880 --> 01:42:08,960 Speaker 7: which is you should pick it up. It's one of 1873 01:42:09,000 --> 01:42:12,760 Speaker 7: my favorite cookbooks that I own. It's called Arabia and 1874 01:42:13,040 --> 01:42:16,920 Speaker 7: it is a documentary series exploring the food ways and 1875 01:42:17,200 --> 01:42:21,000 Speaker 7: diaspora of Arab people across South past Asia North Africa. 1876 01:42:21,560 --> 01:42:24,000 Speaker 7: And I think the general log line and dream can 1877 01:42:24,080 --> 01:42:26,240 Speaker 7: dive into a bit more of the general log line 1878 01:42:26,320 --> 01:42:28,559 Speaker 7: is you can tell this like through telling the story 1879 01:42:28,600 --> 01:42:30,160 Speaker 7: of the food, you can tell the story of our 1880 01:42:30,200 --> 01:42:34,280 Speaker 7: people in diaspora. And it underscores a lot of I 1881 01:42:34,320 --> 01:42:38,959 Speaker 7: think we'll talk about today, which is sort of food identity, 1882 01:42:39,200 --> 01:42:43,960 Speaker 7: identity through food and resilience and through food. But also 1883 01:42:44,080 --> 01:42:46,840 Speaker 7: I think one thing that's always been really important to 1884 01:42:47,400 --> 01:42:49,840 Speaker 7: both of us is how much we see the show 1885 01:42:49,840 --> 01:42:51,920 Speaker 7: as like a celebration of our culture. I feel like 1886 01:42:51,960 --> 01:42:56,920 Speaker 7: there are so many trauma stories from not only Palestinians 1887 01:42:56,960 --> 01:42:59,439 Speaker 7: but Arabs in general, and I think something that was 1888 01:42:59,439 --> 01:43:01,800 Speaker 7: really important us as I guess let's talk about all 1889 01:43:01,840 --> 01:43:04,760 Speaker 7: of it. We're an extremely I think you know, we're 1890 01:43:04,800 --> 01:43:08,920 Speaker 7: extremely politicized as a people, but also very passionate. But 1891 01:43:09,040 --> 01:43:12,760 Speaker 7: also let's celebrate all the things we love about ourselves 1892 01:43:12,840 --> 01:43:15,280 Speaker 7: and love about our culture and the tastes and smells 1893 01:43:15,360 --> 01:43:18,639 Speaker 7: and sounds and sights. So how would you I feel 1894 01:43:18,680 --> 01:43:20,640 Speaker 7: like that's sort of the setup, but how would you 1895 01:43:20,720 --> 01:43:21,160 Speaker 7: describe it? 1896 01:43:23,120 --> 01:43:28,439 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's exactly it. And our hope is 1897 01:43:28,520 --> 01:43:32,880 Speaker 1: that the being able to break down the barriers or 1898 01:43:34,200 --> 01:43:37,920 Speaker 1: have a lens into our world for the public is 1899 01:43:38,400 --> 01:43:43,040 Speaker 1: kind of a gateway to understand the context and the 1900 01:43:43,160 --> 01:43:46,880 Speaker 1: politics behind why things are the way they are and 1901 01:43:47,080 --> 01:43:52,440 Speaker 1: to really fight the dehumanization that Arabs have experienced, particularly 1902 01:43:52,600 --> 01:43:55,880 Speaker 1: in the West. And so, you know, while this is 1903 01:43:55,920 --> 01:43:59,080 Speaker 1: a show about food, it's also it's very much a 1904 01:43:59,120 --> 01:44:04,760 Speaker 1: show about people and how interconnected we are. So yeah, 1905 01:44:04,960 --> 01:44:08,760 Speaker 1: we're really excited to be able to break down some 1906 01:44:08,880 --> 01:44:12,280 Speaker 1: of those barriers of understanding in a way that could 1907 01:44:12,360 --> 01:44:16,639 Speaker 1: actually lead to people, you know, fighting anti Arab sentiment 1908 01:44:16,760 --> 01:44:20,680 Speaker 1: in this country, fighting Islamophobia, all of these things when 1909 01:44:20,720 --> 01:44:23,599 Speaker 1: they have that kind of lens or that view into 1910 01:44:23,680 --> 01:44:24,080 Speaker 1: our world. 1911 01:44:24,840 --> 01:44:28,439 Speaker 7: Yeah, and I mean it's been pretty interesting. I can 1912 01:44:28,479 --> 01:44:31,160 Speaker 7: I keep vamping a little bit. It's been pretty interesting. 1913 01:44:31,320 --> 01:44:33,960 Speaker 7: I mean, I think the sort of like thought that 1914 01:44:34,720 --> 01:44:38,560 Speaker 7: started the show really was why it's so easy? And 1915 01:44:38,640 --> 01:44:40,719 Speaker 7: I think we'll talk about this later too in depth, 1916 01:44:41,160 --> 01:44:44,040 Speaker 7: but like, why is it so easy to find so 1917 01:44:44,200 --> 01:44:48,599 Speaker 7: many different cultures food? You know, like you have I'm 1918 01:44:48,600 --> 01:44:50,680 Speaker 7: going to use Asian food as an example because I 1919 01:44:50,760 --> 01:44:52,519 Speaker 7: live in the San Gabriel Valley, so it's like all 1920 01:44:52,560 --> 01:44:55,960 Speaker 7: around me. But you have Korean food and Japanese food, 1921 01:44:56,080 --> 01:44:59,040 Speaker 7: and so many different types of Chinese food that are 1922 01:44:59,120 --> 01:45:02,479 Speaker 7: all specifically called what they are and where they're from. Right, 1923 01:45:02,960 --> 01:45:06,800 Speaker 7: They're all like identified correctly, and that can extend to 1924 01:45:07,360 --> 01:45:11,040 Speaker 7: the Latin X world and their food, it can extend 1925 01:45:11,280 --> 01:45:15,240 Speaker 7: to European food. It's all very you know, like people 1926 01:45:15,320 --> 01:45:17,400 Speaker 7: call it what it is, and then you sort of 1927 01:45:17,520 --> 01:45:21,519 Speaker 7: get to you get to you know, Southwest Asia and 1928 01:45:21,560 --> 01:45:26,439 Speaker 7: North Africa and suddenly the food stops being called you 1929 01:45:26,520 --> 01:45:29,240 Speaker 7: know what it is, and starts being called Mediterranean or 1930 01:45:29,320 --> 01:45:34,479 Speaker 7: starts being called Middle Eastern. And I think that the 1931 01:45:34,600 --> 01:45:38,400 Speaker 7: idea was, like I had gone to Anaheim, where there's 1932 01:45:38,400 --> 01:45:41,160 Speaker 7: a neighborhood called Little Arabia here, and there was a 1933 01:45:41,200 --> 01:45:42,280 Speaker 7: Palestinian restaurant. 1934 01:45:42,320 --> 01:45:44,080 Speaker 5: I was like so excited about it. It was called 1935 01:45:44,120 --> 01:45:44,639 Speaker 5: the Olive Tree. 1936 01:45:44,680 --> 01:45:48,599 Speaker 7: It's closed now, but I was like so so excited, 1937 01:45:48,640 --> 01:45:51,120 Speaker 7: and I got I always get so so excited when 1938 01:45:51,160 --> 01:45:55,559 Speaker 7: I find a Palestinian restaurant or a yeam any restaurant, and. 1939 01:45:57,160 --> 01:45:58,320 Speaker 5: You know, I mean many of them. 1940 01:45:58,400 --> 01:46:01,960 Speaker 7: But I think the reason I get so excited is 1941 01:46:01,960 --> 01:46:06,080 Speaker 7: because it's so hard to find those places, and I 1942 01:46:06,120 --> 01:46:09,280 Speaker 7: think there's a reason why. And so, you know, three 1943 01:46:09,320 --> 01:46:11,120 Speaker 7: and a half years later, the show has sort of 1944 01:46:11,360 --> 01:46:14,720 Speaker 7: grown from that initial thought and interest and become very 1945 01:46:15,200 --> 01:46:19,720 Speaker 7: very different, and it's effort to humanize Arabs, which is 1946 01:46:19,760 --> 01:46:22,880 Speaker 7: something I think is you know, it's unfortunate that we 1947 01:46:22,920 --> 01:46:24,280 Speaker 7: still have to do that, but I think we kind 1948 01:46:24,280 --> 01:46:27,000 Speaker 7: of do, especially right now. But yeah, we've been pitching 1949 01:46:27,120 --> 01:46:29,680 Speaker 7: for like, you know, we worked on it together for 1950 01:46:29,800 --> 01:46:31,800 Speaker 7: a while and then have just been pitching and going 1951 01:46:31,840 --> 01:46:35,200 Speaker 7: through pitches and talking at different companies and getting a 1952 01:46:35,240 --> 01:46:37,879 Speaker 7: lot of great feedback and getting some really weird feedback 1953 01:46:37,960 --> 01:46:39,519 Speaker 7: for the past like few years. 1954 01:46:39,600 --> 01:46:41,200 Speaker 9: And we can talk about that more if you want, 1955 01:46:41,320 --> 01:46:45,040 Speaker 9: but well, oh, I'd like to talk about some of 1956 01:46:45,120 --> 01:46:48,280 Speaker 9: the more interesting feedback, I guess, But I would also 1957 01:46:48,479 --> 01:46:51,800 Speaker 9: want to ask you, ream, how how did you get 1958 01:46:51,880 --> 01:46:54,240 Speaker 9: involved in food? Like where did that passion start? 1959 01:46:56,320 --> 01:46:59,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, I've I would say food has always been in 1960 01:46:59,800 --> 01:47:04,800 Speaker 1: the backdrop, for better or for worse of my life experiences, 1961 01:47:05,040 --> 01:47:12,599 Speaker 1: particularly when everything falls apart from me. I grew up 1962 01:47:13,080 --> 01:47:16,280 Speaker 1: kind of as a whatever. The term I've heard is 1963 01:47:16,360 --> 01:47:21,919 Speaker 1: like the third culture kid, right where the Arab identity 1964 01:47:22,000 --> 01:47:24,280 Speaker 1: was really strong in our household and that was particularly 1965 01:47:24,400 --> 01:47:27,960 Speaker 1: through food, but then also and a stranger in a 1966 01:47:28,040 --> 01:47:32,760 Speaker 1: strange land outside of the home, where it was predominantly 1967 01:47:34,479 --> 01:47:39,800 Speaker 1: your typical Americana suburban culture. And so I was kind 1968 01:47:39,840 --> 01:47:45,600 Speaker 1: of like, even though food was there, the intertwining with 1969 01:47:45,760 --> 01:47:48,120 Speaker 1: identity made me like run away from it a lot 1970 01:47:48,160 --> 01:47:52,600 Speaker 1: because it reminds you of your otherness and also just 1971 01:47:52,880 --> 01:47:57,000 Speaker 1: the nuances of seeing my mom being a working mom 1972 01:47:57,040 --> 01:47:59,679 Speaker 1: and struggling in the kitchen. So I was like I'm 1973 01:48:00,439 --> 01:48:02,439 Speaker 1: I'm going to be a feminist and I'm never going 1974 01:48:02,520 --> 01:48:06,800 Speaker 1: to touch that was like, and then every time, like 1975 01:48:07,640 --> 01:48:09,960 Speaker 1: you know, and then I did like what the immigrant 1976 01:48:10,040 --> 01:48:13,560 Speaker 1: child does, like overachiever, like go to college, try to 1977 01:48:13,600 --> 01:48:15,840 Speaker 1: be the president, and then realize that's not. 1978 01:48:15,920 --> 01:48:16,479 Speaker 9: What I want to do. 1979 01:48:16,640 --> 01:48:19,760 Speaker 1: When I spent many years in the nonprofit world, I 1980 01:48:19,880 --> 01:48:22,559 Speaker 1: was doing organizer work, and while that work was really 1981 01:48:22,720 --> 01:48:26,320 Speaker 1: rewarding to some extent, it was really draining and not 1982 01:48:26,840 --> 01:48:30,400 Speaker 1: fulfilling in a deeper spiritual level. And so every time 1983 01:48:30,479 --> 01:48:33,400 Speaker 1: I would burn out, the food, and particularly the food 1984 01:48:33,439 --> 01:48:35,960 Speaker 1: of my culture would come back in some shape or form. 1985 01:48:37,200 --> 01:48:39,040 Speaker 1: So I just had this kind of moment in twenty 1986 01:48:39,200 --> 01:48:41,960 Speaker 1: ten where I was in another bout of burnout and 1987 01:48:42,040 --> 01:48:45,960 Speaker 1: depression and really questioning everything. And it was a trip 1988 01:48:46,040 --> 01:48:48,120 Speaker 1: that I took to the Arab world with my father 1989 01:48:48,280 --> 01:48:53,080 Speaker 1: and seeing particularly bred in these straight corner bakeries be 1990 01:48:53,760 --> 01:48:59,080 Speaker 1: the anchor for this community that I had, you know, 1991 01:48:59,640 --> 01:49:02,639 Speaker 1: as a kid of diaspora, like really longing to feel 1992 01:49:02,640 --> 01:49:04,840 Speaker 1: connected to and it was through the food that I 1993 01:49:05,320 --> 01:49:08,920 Speaker 1: felt connected once again. So my mom did something right. 1994 01:49:09,640 --> 01:49:13,360 Speaker 1: Look of her the credit for that, But I was like, 1995 01:49:13,479 --> 01:49:15,400 Speaker 1: I need to explore this more. I need to understand 1996 01:49:15,439 --> 01:49:18,040 Speaker 1: what is this? And so then food became a source 1997 01:49:18,080 --> 01:49:20,280 Speaker 1: of healing for me to like come back to my 1998 01:49:21,040 --> 01:49:23,760 Speaker 1: identity and come back to my culture. But then also 1999 01:49:24,840 --> 01:49:27,160 Speaker 1: just the power of food as a community builder that 2000 01:49:27,439 --> 01:49:30,680 Speaker 1: like transcends all cultures, Like I really loved that as 2001 01:49:30,760 --> 01:49:34,680 Speaker 1: a community organizer who had been working with other communities 2002 01:49:34,760 --> 01:49:38,439 Speaker 1: who struggled just like my own, right, So that's kind 2003 01:49:38,439 --> 01:49:40,880 Speaker 1: of how I got into food by way of my 2004 01:49:41,040 --> 01:49:45,000 Speaker 1: love for wanting to belong and my love for connection 2005 01:49:45,120 --> 01:49:50,639 Speaker 1: of community, and then slowly became obsessed with food itself. 2006 01:49:50,720 --> 01:49:53,080 Speaker 1: I mean, who doesn't love food? But it is a 2007 01:49:53,200 --> 01:49:57,760 Speaker 1: place of both trauma and healing for me, So it 2008 01:49:57,840 --> 01:49:59,439 Speaker 1: became kind of a way to transcend that. 2009 01:50:00,400 --> 01:50:01,840 Speaker 9: No, I think it's a great thing to bring up 2010 01:50:01,840 --> 01:50:06,920 Speaker 9: how it's a trauma and very healing as well. I 2011 01:50:07,720 --> 01:50:09,680 Speaker 9: to kind of talk about like the feedback. I know 2012 01:50:09,720 --> 01:50:11,599 Speaker 9: you've had a restaurant in the Bay Area for a while. 2013 01:50:13,040 --> 01:50:14,920 Speaker 9: Was it similar when you tried to make the show 2014 01:50:15,040 --> 01:50:18,599 Speaker 9: come together, Like did you have similar barriers and feedback, 2015 01:50:18,640 --> 01:50:20,080 Speaker 9: Like were you like familiar with some of the things 2016 01:50:20,080 --> 01:50:22,880 Speaker 9: that people were saying or was it completely like a 2017 01:50:23,000 --> 01:50:23,439 Speaker 9: new game. 2018 01:50:24,360 --> 01:50:24,599 Speaker 3: Yeah. 2019 01:50:25,200 --> 01:50:29,200 Speaker 1: So the context that I started my restaurant, and I 2020 01:50:29,320 --> 01:50:31,960 Speaker 1: want to say it was probably much different than even 2021 01:50:32,040 --> 01:50:35,000 Speaker 1: what it is now today, although certainly there is backlash. 2022 01:50:35,400 --> 01:50:37,160 Speaker 1: But I would say I was one of the first 2023 01:50:37,400 --> 01:50:40,360 Speaker 1: few chefs who were saying, nope, I want my food 2024 01:50:40,400 --> 01:50:45,960 Speaker 1: to be called Arab. And I really wanted to counter 2025 01:50:46,120 --> 01:50:49,640 Speaker 1: these kind of watered down labels of Middle Eastern or 2026 01:50:49,720 --> 01:50:53,120 Speaker 1: Mediterranean or you know, levantine. To me, those were all 2027 01:50:53,200 --> 01:50:56,040 Speaker 1: colonial terms and it was like a bad word to 2028 01:50:56,160 --> 01:50:58,920 Speaker 1: say Arab, and I wanted to reclaim that identity. I 2029 01:50:59,040 --> 01:51:00,360 Speaker 1: was like, if I'm going to come out, I want 2030 01:51:00,400 --> 01:51:03,519 Speaker 1: to come out as my whole self and not this person, 2031 01:51:03,960 --> 01:51:06,439 Speaker 1: this scared person that was stifled all my life. And 2032 01:51:06,600 --> 01:51:09,760 Speaker 1: I understand why the immigrants before me came, you know, 2033 01:51:09,880 --> 01:51:12,280 Speaker 1: did it that way because they needed to make a living. 2034 01:51:12,520 --> 01:51:15,400 Speaker 1: And you know, there was a lot of anti Arab sentiment, 2035 01:51:15,560 --> 01:51:18,400 Speaker 1: especially in the wake of nine to eleven, that that 2036 01:51:18,720 --> 01:51:23,040 Speaker 1: kind of climate here. And so I had this like 2037 01:51:23,320 --> 01:51:26,000 Speaker 1: lovely idea that I'm like this generation where I can 2038 01:51:26,080 --> 01:51:28,120 Speaker 1: like break it down and make it cool. I'm like, 2039 01:51:28,200 --> 01:51:31,840 Speaker 1: I'm going to mainstream it, you know, And I got 2040 01:51:31,880 --> 01:51:35,439 Speaker 1: pushback actually from my own family, because they had those fears. 2041 01:51:35,520 --> 01:51:38,320 Speaker 1: They were like just you know, start like don't even 2042 01:51:38,360 --> 01:51:41,720 Speaker 1: start with like a zacta avduu. Shit, nobody's gonna now 2043 01:51:41,760 --> 01:51:44,120 Speaker 1: it's like the hot thing. But so that was a 2044 01:51:44,160 --> 01:51:48,719 Speaker 1: context in which I was opening my business and nobody 2045 01:51:48,760 --> 01:51:50,920 Speaker 1: had done it really before, so I could kind of 2046 01:51:50,960 --> 01:51:52,880 Speaker 1: create my own rules and people like what is this? 2047 01:51:53,160 --> 01:51:55,439 Speaker 1: And I still got like a lot of like, oh 2048 01:51:56,640 --> 01:52:02,080 Speaker 1: is this you know Mediterranean? You know people, it took 2049 01:52:02,120 --> 01:52:06,120 Speaker 1: a while to train people to say Arab and then 2050 01:52:06,160 --> 01:52:09,280 Speaker 1: put the layer of Palestinian identity, you know, my Palestinian 2051 01:52:09,320 --> 01:52:11,640 Speaker 1: identity at the time that I was opening my restaurant 2052 01:52:12,240 --> 01:52:14,439 Speaker 1: was really important. It was you know, I had started 2053 01:52:14,479 --> 01:52:18,200 Speaker 1: my pop ups on the in the wake of Israel's 2054 01:52:18,880 --> 01:52:21,960 Speaker 1: second to worst. Now we're seeing the worst of it 2055 01:52:22,960 --> 01:52:26,360 Speaker 1: incursion on Raz in twenty fourteen, in which they killed 2056 01:52:27,360 --> 01:52:32,240 Speaker 1: you know, over three thousand Palestinians in one winter, and 2057 01:52:32,600 --> 01:52:36,320 Speaker 1: we were devastated by that. We were devastated about the 2058 01:52:36,400 --> 01:52:39,560 Speaker 1: state of organizing with Palestinians. And I really wanted to 2059 01:52:39,640 --> 01:52:42,680 Speaker 1: as I opened my restaurant, not be scared to talk 2060 01:52:42,720 --> 01:52:47,120 Speaker 1: about my whole self, and so I h so everything 2061 01:52:47,120 --> 01:52:50,360 Speaker 1: about Reims. Even though we're not like pushing our politics 2062 01:52:50,439 --> 01:52:53,679 Speaker 1: in your face. Very act of being Palestinian was seen 2063 01:52:53,720 --> 01:52:57,160 Speaker 1: as political, just existing, and we had a mural of 2064 01:52:57,280 --> 01:53:00,800 Speaker 1: a Palestinian activist who was based in Chicago names Desmoda, 2065 01:53:00,920 --> 01:53:05,680 Speaker 1: who is deported by the government, as it made an 2066 01:53:05,720 --> 01:53:09,480 Speaker 1: example of to say, if you're Palestinian and you're outspoken 2067 01:53:09,520 --> 01:53:11,479 Speaker 1: about Palestine, this is what will happen to you. And 2068 01:53:11,560 --> 01:53:14,559 Speaker 1: I put her on the wall to remind my community 2069 01:53:14,640 --> 01:53:17,040 Speaker 1: and to remind myself that we don't need to be scared. 2070 01:53:17,439 --> 01:53:21,000 Speaker 1: And I got a lot of backlash for that, but 2071 01:53:22,040 --> 01:53:26,920 Speaker 1: I think even in that time, despite the backlash, the 2072 01:53:27,120 --> 01:53:31,439 Speaker 1: amount of community support, amount of opportunity for people to learn, 2073 01:53:31,920 --> 01:53:35,639 Speaker 1: was that much greater, and so I ended up getting 2074 01:53:35,640 --> 01:53:41,240 Speaker 1: a lot more positive attention for my vikery overall as 2075 01:53:41,280 --> 01:53:41,880 Speaker 1: a result of that. 2076 01:53:43,560 --> 01:53:45,599 Speaker 7: Do you have just a few? 2077 01:53:46,479 --> 01:53:48,240 Speaker 1: It makes me happy every time I wake up with 2078 01:53:48,360 --> 01:53:51,080 Speaker 1: a nomination, I'm like, I wonder what the Zionists be thinking. 2079 01:53:53,720 --> 01:53:57,120 Speaker 1: It gives me a little bit of like hope that 2080 01:53:57,360 --> 01:53:59,759 Speaker 1: like our success is kind of like what is threatening, 2081 01:53:59,880 --> 01:54:02,040 Speaker 1: you know, because we are truth We are in the 2082 01:54:02,120 --> 01:54:04,200 Speaker 1: business of truth telling, and we do it in a 2083 01:54:04,240 --> 01:54:07,959 Speaker 1: way that's very human, you know, based in our humanity 2084 01:54:08,040 --> 01:54:12,240 Speaker 1: and our dignity, and that our restaurant was really I 2085 01:54:12,320 --> 01:54:15,040 Speaker 1: think powerful in that way that a simple art piece 2086 01:54:15,760 --> 01:54:18,920 Speaker 1: or the simple act of making food and calling it 2087 01:54:19,000 --> 01:54:22,520 Speaker 1: Palestinian was that threatening to the powers. 2088 01:54:22,120 --> 01:54:25,679 Speaker 7: That be, you know, Like that's such an interesting backdrop 2089 01:54:25,920 --> 01:54:29,800 Speaker 7: also to talk about the feedback we got from the show, 2090 01:54:29,920 --> 01:54:35,600 Speaker 7: because like, I think Reem's experience was so was so 2091 01:54:36,200 --> 01:54:38,879 Speaker 7: visceral in that way, and I mean when she described 2092 01:54:38,920 --> 01:54:41,240 Speaker 7: as well, and I think you can look it up 2093 01:54:41,280 --> 01:54:43,160 Speaker 7: and there have been articles on BIS and stuff about 2094 01:54:43,200 --> 01:54:45,920 Speaker 7: it where people can read about her experience and everything 2095 01:54:45,960 --> 01:54:48,760 Speaker 7: that happened. And you know, I think maybe we undersold 2096 01:54:49,280 --> 01:54:51,680 Speaker 7: you your intro a little bit raam, like you're a badass, 2097 01:54:51,760 --> 01:54:54,440 Speaker 7: and you know, the James Beard noms and a lot 2098 01:54:54,440 --> 01:54:55,960 Speaker 7: of great and awesome press. 2099 01:54:56,960 --> 01:54:58,520 Speaker 5: But I think what's. 2100 01:54:58,440 --> 01:55:03,800 Speaker 7: Interesting about the show is with realms, with realms at 2101 01:55:03,920 --> 01:55:09,520 Speaker 7: the restaurant. You know, it's very specifically Palestinian and Arab food, 2102 01:55:10,080 --> 01:55:13,080 Speaker 7: and the show, while yeah, it's being made by us 2103 01:55:13,160 --> 01:55:19,480 Speaker 7: who are Palestinian people, it's not only about Palestine. And 2104 01:55:20,360 --> 01:55:23,880 Speaker 7: that's been something we've sort of had to overcome. Like 2105 01:55:24,800 --> 01:55:27,880 Speaker 7: the show is about Arabs, and it's about our foods 2106 01:55:27,960 --> 01:55:31,400 Speaker 7: and food ways, and as much as the food, you know, 2107 01:55:31,880 --> 01:55:36,440 Speaker 7: the show. As much as the show focuses on Palestine, 2108 01:55:36,440 --> 01:55:39,600 Speaker 7: it also focuses on Egypt and Yemen and where you know, 2109 01:55:39,920 --> 01:55:42,440 Speaker 7: I mean the Yemeni coffee tradition is like where Arab 2110 01:55:42,760 --> 01:55:45,000 Speaker 7: coffee kind of came from and started from. And it 2111 01:55:45,080 --> 01:55:49,280 Speaker 7: also focused on Lebanon and Morocco and Algeria. It's been 2112 01:55:49,440 --> 01:55:52,680 Speaker 7: an interesting yeah, go ahead, ream, Yeah. 2113 01:55:52,600 --> 01:55:55,080 Speaker 1: It was just to that point, like it's it's not 2114 01:55:55,200 --> 01:55:58,080 Speaker 1: about I mean, first of all, these these these states 2115 01:55:58,120 --> 01:56:03,320 Speaker 1: are border right or they're colonized states in some shape 2116 01:56:03,400 --> 01:56:06,919 Speaker 1: or form, and the idea is to fight the tropes 2117 01:56:07,880 --> 01:56:10,440 Speaker 1: of the Arab as one thing, right, Like it's showing 2118 01:56:10,520 --> 01:56:12,720 Speaker 1: the breadth and depth of our culture that like we're 2119 01:56:12,760 --> 01:56:16,960 Speaker 1: not Hamat, it's not a monolith, we're not homogeneous. And 2120 01:56:17,240 --> 01:56:21,640 Speaker 1: even the ethos of Realms kind of is very similar 2121 01:56:21,760 --> 01:56:25,440 Speaker 1: to that idea that yes, we are Palestinian, but we're 2122 01:56:25,440 --> 01:56:28,640 Speaker 1: also Syrian, we're also Oakland, we're also California. Like those 2123 01:56:28,720 --> 01:56:32,000 Speaker 1: things don't need to compete with one another. I hate 2124 01:56:32,520 --> 01:56:36,240 Speaker 1: you know, like you know, my identity kind of coming 2125 01:56:36,320 --> 01:56:39,000 Speaker 1: on the scene. Yes I'm Arab and yes I'm Palestinian, 2126 01:56:39,040 --> 01:56:42,080 Speaker 1: but those are political identities. The reason we call our 2127 01:56:42,120 --> 01:56:45,440 Speaker 1: food Palestinian is to draw attention to the ethnic cleansing 2128 01:56:45,520 --> 01:56:48,000 Speaker 1: and a rasure of our people. That's why we call 2129 01:56:48,040 --> 01:56:50,920 Speaker 1: it Palestinian. But it's not. There's there are certain foods 2130 01:56:50,920 --> 01:56:54,120 Speaker 1: that are not inherent. I mean, they're enjoyed all over 2131 01:56:54,200 --> 01:56:56,560 Speaker 1: the Arab world and they look different, but you can't 2132 01:56:56,920 --> 01:56:59,720 Speaker 1: like the claiming of ownership of food is. Yeah, So 2133 01:57:00,640 --> 01:57:04,320 Speaker 1: I think this show is really trying to fight against 2134 01:57:05,240 --> 01:57:08,360 Speaker 1: that trope of the it's called ada Bia, which is 2135 01:57:08,440 --> 01:57:10,400 Speaker 1: kind of like a tongue in cheek, like what do 2136 01:57:10,440 --> 01:57:12,680 Speaker 1: you think of with the Arab woman? And it's like, 2137 01:57:13,240 --> 01:57:16,040 Speaker 1: let me take all of those stereotypes and like turn 2138 01:57:16,160 --> 01:57:18,680 Speaker 1: them on their head. It's the same thing with like 2139 01:57:18,800 --> 01:57:20,560 Speaker 1: all of our food ways in our culture. There is 2140 01:57:20,680 --> 01:57:25,000 Speaker 1: no singular way of what an Arab is. We all 2141 01:57:25,080 --> 01:57:27,840 Speaker 1: have kind of our unique stories and histories, so when 2142 01:57:27,880 --> 01:57:31,000 Speaker 1: we choose to call things what they are, there's a 2143 01:57:31,120 --> 01:57:33,680 Speaker 1: context in a history for that, and that's what we're 2144 01:57:33,720 --> 01:57:34,520 Speaker 1: trying to share. 2145 01:57:35,280 --> 01:57:35,960 Speaker 5: Yeah, exactly. 2146 01:57:37,040 --> 01:57:42,120 Speaker 9: I think, I mean, I really relate to the idea 2147 01:57:42,160 --> 01:57:46,160 Speaker 9: of really wanting to be represented with food, Like when 2148 01:57:46,200 --> 01:57:50,040 Speaker 9: I find a Syrian restaurant, I freak out. Like there's 2149 01:57:50,120 --> 01:57:55,240 Speaker 9: one alcohol in southern California where it's like my family 2150 01:57:55,280 --> 01:57:57,080 Speaker 9: and I go there every weekend when I'm down and 2151 01:57:57,480 --> 01:57:59,760 Speaker 9: when I'm visiting my parents. It's just like a place 2152 01:57:59,760 --> 01:58:03,520 Speaker 9: where we feel like the closest we can get to 2153 01:58:03,680 --> 01:58:06,320 Speaker 9: home again. And I think it's a really important like 2154 01:58:06,560 --> 01:58:10,240 Speaker 9: reminder that I don't know food is food can be 2155 01:58:10,280 --> 01:58:12,560 Speaker 9: really powerful. And before I keep rambling, I'm gonna take 2156 01:58:12,560 --> 01:58:26,240 Speaker 9: our break and we'll be right back, and we are 2157 01:58:26,400 --> 01:58:30,200 Speaker 9: back reim you mentioned something earlier that I think is 2158 01:58:30,640 --> 01:58:34,480 Speaker 9: worth touching back on the idea of like existing being 2159 01:58:34,720 --> 01:58:38,160 Speaker 9: already like a political act. I think that is like 2160 01:58:38,920 --> 01:58:40,760 Speaker 9: it's a burden for a lot of people of color 2161 01:58:40,760 --> 01:58:43,880 Speaker 9: and a lot of marginalized communities. And I think hand 2162 01:58:43,920 --> 01:58:45,880 Speaker 9: in hand with that is the fact that like our 2163 01:58:46,000 --> 01:58:48,960 Speaker 9: food is also like a political act, like making sure 2164 01:58:49,000 --> 01:58:52,080 Speaker 9: it's couscus not is really cuscus, or whatever it is 2165 01:58:52,240 --> 01:58:56,640 Speaker 9: that we're trying to fight against. How do you see food? 2166 01:58:57,800 --> 01:59:01,400 Speaker 9: And especially now, I think people underestimate how many levels 2167 01:59:01,400 --> 01:59:04,840 Speaker 9: there are of ethnic cleansing because erasing food and appropriating 2168 01:59:04,840 --> 01:59:08,120 Speaker 9: food is a huge part of that, right, So can 2169 01:59:08,160 --> 01:59:10,240 Speaker 9: I get your take on that, both of your takes. 2170 01:59:11,400 --> 01:59:14,280 Speaker 1: You mean, like beyond appropriating, Yeah, I mean I think 2171 01:59:14,960 --> 01:59:21,960 Speaker 1: food is a tool of it is weaponized historically against people, 2172 01:59:23,240 --> 01:59:26,920 Speaker 1: I mean most doubtably obviously with seventy five years of 2173 01:59:28,560 --> 01:59:36,000 Speaker 1: occupation of Palestine. One of the many ways besides the dispossession, killing, expulsion, 2174 01:59:37,000 --> 01:59:39,800 Speaker 1: is to sever us from our food waste. And when 2175 01:59:39,840 --> 01:59:43,120 Speaker 1: you sever someone from their land that creates the food ways, 2176 01:59:43,280 --> 01:59:48,400 Speaker 1: you sever them from their culture, from their existence. Then 2177 01:59:48,480 --> 01:59:51,840 Speaker 1: there's just the most the more immediate way as we're 2178 01:59:52,080 --> 01:59:56,000 Speaker 1: seeing this genocide unfolds, where you can starve a population 2179 01:59:56,280 --> 02:00:00,120 Speaker 1: in that and so food then becomes kind of of 2180 02:00:00,160 --> 02:00:05,200 Speaker 1: this powerful tool to break a people, and why we 2181 02:00:05,320 --> 02:00:09,960 Speaker 1: see people like food become a form of resistance for people. 2182 02:00:10,600 --> 02:00:12,960 Speaker 1: But even here in our communities, I mean, this is 2183 02:00:13,040 --> 02:00:19,760 Speaker 1: not unfortunately unique to the Palestinians. You've seen the pillaging 2184 02:00:19,960 --> 02:00:24,680 Speaker 1: of indigenous folks here in this country the same things, 2185 02:00:24,760 --> 02:00:27,400 Speaker 1: kind of cutting them off from their food ways, their 2186 02:00:27,880 --> 02:00:30,920 Speaker 1: means of subsistence, of supporting one another, of you know, 2187 02:00:31,160 --> 02:00:34,160 Speaker 1: being connected to their culture. And now you're seeing in 2188 02:00:34,320 --> 02:00:38,800 Speaker 1: communities through economic policy, like food deserts and people not 2189 02:00:38,920 --> 02:00:42,240 Speaker 1: being able to access their food or have sovereignty over 2190 02:00:42,320 --> 02:00:47,280 Speaker 1: their food production. So it is absolutely a tool and 2191 02:00:48,920 --> 02:00:51,040 Speaker 1: something that we talk about at REAMS a lot that, 2192 02:00:51,280 --> 02:00:53,960 Speaker 1: like the fight for Palestine is the fight for food 2193 02:00:54,040 --> 02:00:56,040 Speaker 1: sovereignty everywhere and vice versa. 2194 02:00:56,360 --> 02:01:00,200 Speaker 9: Right, Well, I'm glad you brought up the idea of 2195 02:01:02,360 --> 02:01:05,600 Speaker 9: or just the fact that like Israel and the Zionist 2196 02:01:05,640 --> 02:01:08,400 Speaker 9: regime has like taken Palestinians from their land. And I've 2197 02:01:08,440 --> 02:01:11,320 Speaker 9: talked about this before on this podcast, but like the 2198 02:01:11,400 --> 02:01:15,160 Speaker 9: olive tree is a very significant part of Palestinian culture, 2199 02:01:15,280 --> 02:01:18,920 Speaker 9: and like olive harvesting is a huge part of Palestinian life. 2200 02:01:18,960 --> 02:01:21,920 Speaker 9: And so when you burn down thousands of olive trees, 2201 02:01:22,000 --> 02:01:23,800 Speaker 9: or when you kick people out of like the art 2202 02:01:23,920 --> 02:01:28,680 Speaker 9: agriculturally rich parts of the land, you're denying them so 2203 02:01:28,840 --> 02:01:32,040 Speaker 9: much more than just olives. It's like very deep. And 2204 02:01:32,160 --> 02:01:34,920 Speaker 9: I think when people that are not as informed about 2205 02:01:35,040 --> 02:01:38,760 Speaker 9: Palestine question like why is there a watermelon? Like what's 2206 02:01:38,880 --> 02:01:41,680 Speaker 9: this and what's the olive about? And I think that 2207 02:01:41,840 --> 02:01:45,000 Speaker 9: goes to show how powerful food can be. And just 2208 02:01:45,160 --> 02:01:48,000 Speaker 9: for those who don't know, the watermelon became an active 2209 02:01:48,720 --> 02:01:51,400 Speaker 9: or a symbol of resistance because the Palestinian flag was 2210 02:01:51,440 --> 02:01:53,520 Speaker 9: not allowed to be raised for a while, and it 2211 02:01:53,560 --> 02:01:55,840 Speaker 9: has the same colors as Palestini flag, and so that's 2212 02:01:55,880 --> 02:01:59,440 Speaker 9: just like a really beautiful way that food has become 2213 02:01:59,560 --> 02:02:03,640 Speaker 9: this like powerful symbol. And so I just I just 2214 02:02:03,800 --> 02:02:07,200 Speaker 9: trying to, I don't know, emphasize that a little bit, 2215 02:02:07,240 --> 02:02:08,880 Speaker 9: I guess, Jabil, what's your take. 2216 02:02:09,960 --> 02:02:14,000 Speaker 7: Yeah, I mean I think that I think just I'll 2217 02:02:14,000 --> 02:02:16,280 Speaker 7: speak like a little bit more domestically. I feel like 2218 02:02:16,360 --> 02:02:19,320 Speaker 7: Reem is so eloquent and talking about historic parts of it, 2219 02:02:19,880 --> 02:02:22,040 Speaker 7: but I mean even here, like domestically in Los Angeles 2220 02:02:22,160 --> 02:02:24,080 Speaker 7: or California, I think one of the things and it 2221 02:02:24,240 --> 02:02:25,840 Speaker 7: kind of goes back to what we were talking about earlier. 2222 02:02:26,400 --> 02:02:28,120 Speaker 7: One of the things that's one of the things that's 2223 02:02:28,160 --> 02:02:34,520 Speaker 7: difficult is there are so few identifying parts of or 2224 02:02:34,640 --> 02:02:37,680 Speaker 7: just restaurants in general, like correctly identifying restaurants Syria in 2225 02:02:37,760 --> 02:02:41,680 Speaker 7: or Lebanese or Palestinian or what have you, and they 2226 02:02:42,000 --> 02:02:46,560 Speaker 7: hide under these names which when I'm not going to 2227 02:02:46,680 --> 02:02:49,720 Speaker 7: name like specific restaurants here, but like which when other 2228 02:02:49,880 --> 02:02:54,640 Speaker 7: restaurants open and maybe they're owned by an Italian person 2229 02:02:54,880 --> 02:02:58,760 Speaker 7: or just other people that aren't Arab, and suddenly they're 2230 02:02:59,200 --> 02:03:03,640 Speaker 7: taking the food and misappropriating it and calling it. Yeah, 2231 02:03:03,680 --> 02:03:06,840 Speaker 7: I mean Israeli kuscus or like an Israeli salad or 2232 02:03:07,680 --> 02:03:11,280 Speaker 7: Israeli falaffl or Hey, here's all this food and it's 2233 02:03:11,320 --> 02:03:16,040 Speaker 7: shuarma and it's kebabs and it's manyish and we're an 2234 02:03:16,120 --> 02:03:19,200 Speaker 7: Israeli restaurant. Like these are things that are really difficult 2235 02:03:19,200 --> 02:03:22,120 Speaker 7: because I think, you know, those things tend to be 2236 02:03:22,480 --> 02:03:26,880 Speaker 7: unfortunately just like more approachable, saying Mediterranean tends to be 2237 02:03:26,960 --> 02:03:30,760 Speaker 7: more approachable, and what you get ultimately is a population 2238 02:03:30,960 --> 02:03:34,080 Speaker 7: of I would say a larger population of non Arab 2239 02:03:34,200 --> 02:03:37,360 Speaker 7: people that don't really understand what they're eating and they're 2240 02:03:37,400 --> 02:03:41,320 Speaker 7: not educated on where it comes from. And just the 2241 02:03:41,440 --> 02:03:45,480 Speaker 7: amount of people you know, anecdotally that I personally have 2242 02:03:45,680 --> 02:03:50,320 Speaker 7: met who like don't know that this food is Arab 2243 02:03:50,440 --> 02:03:54,120 Speaker 7: food or don't know like what where the food comes from, 2244 02:03:54,160 --> 02:03:56,160 Speaker 7: which is so interesting to me because it's not an 2245 02:03:56,240 --> 02:03:59,480 Speaker 7: experience that I think many other cultures or ethnicities have. 2246 02:04:00,600 --> 02:04:03,320 Speaker 7: And so yeah, I mean I kind of always joke 2247 02:04:03,440 --> 02:04:07,040 Speaker 7: that I feel like a really close example is if 2248 02:04:07,440 --> 02:04:10,480 Speaker 7: you know, somebody started like an American person started making 2249 02:04:10,560 --> 02:04:15,160 Speaker 7: sushi and they're like, this is American food and it's 2250 02:04:15,360 --> 02:04:19,000 Speaker 7: just not at the same time. And so I think 2251 02:04:19,080 --> 02:04:23,200 Speaker 7: that the need to assimilate for generations before reems and 2252 02:04:23,280 --> 02:04:28,680 Speaker 7: I I have an empathy for the want of safety 2253 02:04:29,480 --> 02:04:31,120 Speaker 7: that they were doing and the want to make a 2254 02:04:31,200 --> 02:04:33,080 Speaker 7: living and the reasons they did it. I think we 2255 02:04:33,400 --> 02:04:36,800 Speaker 7: kind of alluded to that earlier. But where it's left 2256 02:04:36,880 --> 02:04:42,120 Speaker 7: us now is a population of Arabs and diaspora that 2257 02:04:43,720 --> 02:04:46,360 Speaker 7: I think are harmed for it. You know, like we 2258 02:04:46,480 --> 02:04:48,560 Speaker 7: don't have we don't show up on the census, and 2259 02:04:49,160 --> 02:04:51,840 Speaker 7: it's all sort of one part. It's all they're all 2260 02:04:51,880 --> 02:04:54,640 Speaker 7: different parts of the one problem. And I think that 2261 02:04:55,040 --> 02:04:56,880 Speaker 7: when you take the food and you don't give it 2262 02:04:56,920 --> 02:04:59,480 Speaker 7: its correct name, and you don't or you give it 2263 02:04:59,720 --> 02:05:04,520 Speaker 7: the incorrect name, it hurts all of us in ways 2264 02:05:04,640 --> 02:05:08,600 Speaker 7: that like we can't even imagine, whether it's at work 2265 02:05:08,840 --> 02:05:12,520 Speaker 7: or in diversity and belonging initiatives not including Swannamina people, 2266 02:05:13,520 --> 02:05:16,200 Speaker 7: or whether it's just in food ways and not being 2267 02:05:16,240 --> 02:05:18,680 Speaker 7: included or not being included in the census, which leads 2268 02:05:18,760 --> 02:05:23,560 Speaker 7: to us not having as much community support around our 2269 02:05:23,640 --> 02:05:27,440 Speaker 7: people are not knowing medical statistics like I think they're 2270 02:05:27,560 --> 02:05:30,840 Speaker 7: all they're symptoms of a bigger issue, and I think 2271 02:05:32,280 --> 02:05:35,120 Speaker 7: one of the ways you combat that issue is through 2272 02:05:35,280 --> 02:05:37,680 Speaker 7: knowledge and shared learning and shared experience. 2273 02:05:37,760 --> 02:05:39,320 Speaker 5: And I think food and. 2274 02:05:39,400 --> 02:05:42,960 Speaker 7: Food ways are one of the main ways that people 2275 02:05:43,120 --> 02:05:46,520 Speaker 7: experience and learn about other cultures. And I think if 2276 02:05:46,640 --> 02:05:49,200 Speaker 7: people look at that in their own lives, you can 2277 02:05:49,280 --> 02:05:53,080 Speaker 7: apply it to any culture of food that you really 2278 02:05:53,200 --> 02:05:57,240 Speaker 7: love and maybe it's not your own, and you've learned 2279 02:05:57,320 --> 02:05:59,880 Speaker 7: something about those people through that, you know. I think 2280 02:06:01,320 --> 02:06:05,440 Speaker 7: the main dishes of any culture, it says a lot 2281 02:06:05,480 --> 02:06:08,440 Speaker 7: about where that culture has been, where they come from, 2282 02:06:08,680 --> 02:06:12,000 Speaker 7: what their history is. And I think people being able 2283 02:06:12,040 --> 02:06:15,560 Speaker 7: to experience those things and go to a Mexican restaurant 2284 02:06:16,200 --> 02:06:19,520 Speaker 7: and learn about, you know, a certain dish and where 2285 02:06:19,520 --> 02:06:21,600 Speaker 7: it comes from or why it's there or why it's 2286 02:06:21,680 --> 02:06:24,520 Speaker 7: named something is an experience that allows them to learn 2287 02:06:24,520 --> 02:06:27,680 Speaker 7: about a culture. And we just don't necessarily have that here. 2288 02:06:28,480 --> 02:06:31,080 Speaker 7: And then when you add on, you know, misnomers or 2289 02:06:31,400 --> 02:06:34,840 Speaker 7: incorrect labels, it becomes even more damaging and also just 2290 02:06:34,960 --> 02:06:38,360 Speaker 7: hurtful and very annoying, Like it's so annoying, and I like, 2291 02:06:38,400 --> 02:06:41,480 Speaker 7: I don't want to go. I'm sorry, Like there are 2292 02:06:41,600 --> 02:06:43,880 Speaker 7: restaurants in LA that I like just don't want to 2293 02:06:43,920 --> 02:06:46,640 Speaker 7: go to. And maybe the chefs are really nice and 2294 02:06:46,760 --> 02:06:50,200 Speaker 7: they might be allies in some ways, or maybe they're not, 2295 02:06:51,000 --> 02:06:54,040 Speaker 7: but like I would rather give please, Like I would 2296 02:06:54,120 --> 02:06:57,000 Speaker 7: rather give my money to like an Arab person making 2297 02:06:57,400 --> 02:07:00,840 Speaker 7: our own food rather than going to experience it. 2298 02:07:01,120 --> 02:07:02,680 Speaker 5: In a different way, you know what I mean? 2299 02:07:02,800 --> 02:07:03,200 Speaker 1: Like I don't. 2300 02:07:04,240 --> 02:07:06,200 Speaker 7: I don't know, so I think that's kind of like 2301 02:07:06,480 --> 02:07:09,000 Speaker 7: how I generally feel. And the less professional answer is 2302 02:07:09,040 --> 02:07:12,160 Speaker 7: I just find it like really annoying. And I'm like, 2303 02:07:12,240 --> 02:07:15,440 Speaker 7: come on, y'all, there's so many listen, like, we're not 2304 02:07:15,680 --> 02:07:18,040 Speaker 7: LA's not New York. We have like not as many 2305 02:07:18,160 --> 02:07:22,040 Speaker 7: Arab places to go. They're sort of few. You have 2306 02:07:22,080 --> 02:07:24,160 Speaker 7: to seek them out a little bit more here. But 2307 02:07:24,280 --> 02:07:27,880 Speaker 7: I'm like, come on, y'all, we're out here. Yeah, go 2308 02:07:28,000 --> 02:07:30,640 Speaker 7: find go find us, like, go find give your money 2309 02:07:30,720 --> 02:07:35,360 Speaker 7: to like this Syrian immigrant who moved here and started 2310 02:07:35,440 --> 02:07:36,880 Speaker 7: this place that everybody loves. 2311 02:07:37,960 --> 02:07:40,160 Speaker 5: And you know, I, yeah, I don't know. 2312 02:07:40,320 --> 02:07:42,360 Speaker 7: There are a lot of big restaurants, are very popular 2313 02:07:42,440 --> 02:07:44,760 Speaker 7: restaurants here, and I'm just like, not a dog. I 2314 02:07:44,840 --> 02:07:46,600 Speaker 7: don't want to pay I don't want to pay thirty 2315 02:07:46,640 --> 02:07:48,080 Speaker 7: five dollars for to believe. 2316 02:07:48,640 --> 02:07:52,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think, I mean, I think it's twofold kind 2317 02:07:52,280 --> 02:07:55,600 Speaker 1: of like who has access to resources versus who doesn't? Right, 2318 02:07:56,200 --> 02:08:02,040 Speaker 1: who gets highlighted? You know, there's that piece and what's 2319 02:08:02,120 --> 02:08:05,160 Speaker 1: palatable to the American public and what's not right? Like 2320 02:08:05,880 --> 02:08:10,600 Speaker 1: I always say, like, for for instance, I think like realms, 2321 02:08:10,680 --> 02:08:14,839 Speaker 1: we kind of we do things a little bit different. Obviously, 2322 02:08:14,960 --> 02:08:18,240 Speaker 1: we honor tradition, we honor the soul of air cuisine, 2323 02:08:18,280 --> 02:08:22,240 Speaker 1: but we play around with it. And one could argue, 2324 02:08:22,960 --> 02:08:27,000 Speaker 1: are we is this like americanizing the food? And we're like, no, 2325 02:08:27,280 --> 02:08:32,160 Speaker 1: it's just through the lens of a yes for Palestinian 2326 02:08:32,240 --> 02:08:37,680 Speaker 1: Syrian by way of California. But we I think when 2327 02:08:37,720 --> 02:08:40,280 Speaker 1: we first came on the scene, I mean, there is 2328 02:08:40,400 --> 02:08:43,080 Speaker 1: something to be said about the privilege that I have 2329 02:08:43,440 --> 02:08:49,520 Speaker 1: as English speaking, as this generation that can like what 2330 02:08:49,640 --> 02:08:53,240 Speaker 1: do you call it, translate the foods to a mainstream 2331 02:08:53,320 --> 02:08:55,480 Speaker 1: public in a way that's like really compelling, like a 2332 02:08:55,600 --> 02:08:59,840 Speaker 1: mediator almost, But that comes from a little bit of 2333 02:09:00,560 --> 02:09:03,520 Speaker 1: like that people don't they want the food, you know, 2334 02:09:03,640 --> 02:09:07,960 Speaker 1: and so like I am this palatable character in some ways, 2335 02:09:08,880 --> 02:09:13,120 Speaker 1: and that's a contradiction that I'm constantly like, I don't 2336 02:09:13,160 --> 02:09:17,000 Speaker 1: want to be, but it's like, what do you call 2337 02:09:17,080 --> 02:09:19,440 Speaker 1: that the trojan horse? Right? But then once you come 2338 02:09:19,480 --> 02:09:22,600 Speaker 1: into Reams, it's still it's very warm. I mean, there's nothing. 2339 02:09:22,640 --> 02:09:27,360 Speaker 1: We're not tricking anyone, right, But we're also truly ourselves 2340 02:09:27,440 --> 02:09:30,160 Speaker 1: and that's not for everybody. So we don't want to 2341 02:09:30,160 --> 02:09:32,240 Speaker 1: be a gentrifying space where like, if you're going to 2342 02:09:32,280 --> 02:09:34,320 Speaker 1: come in here, you have to deal with the community 2343 02:09:34,440 --> 02:09:37,640 Speaker 1: that we're in just as much as the food that 2344 02:09:37,840 --> 02:09:41,600 Speaker 1: you are obsessed with now, right because either wrote about 2345 02:09:41,600 --> 02:09:46,480 Speaker 1: it or whatever. So we really and that's not for everybody, right, like, 2346 02:09:47,360 --> 02:09:52,360 Speaker 1: and that just speaks to a like a bigger problem 2347 02:09:52,440 --> 02:09:55,240 Speaker 1: of like if you like the people as much as 2348 02:09:55,280 --> 02:09:57,120 Speaker 1: you like their food, Like our food is not just 2349 02:09:57,240 --> 02:09:59,640 Speaker 1: for sale. You can't just take some of it and 2350 02:09:59,760 --> 02:10:01,280 Speaker 1: leave the rest of it. And I think that's why 2351 02:10:01,320 --> 02:10:05,600 Speaker 1: the American public is so comfortable with our foods being 2352 02:10:05,680 --> 02:10:08,000 Speaker 1: represented by people other than us. We're not we're not 2353 02:10:08,120 --> 02:10:11,280 Speaker 1: We're never the tellers of our own stories because again, 2354 02:10:11,400 --> 02:10:18,600 Speaker 1: this dehumanization of Palestinians, and it's particularly interesting now and 2355 02:10:18,680 --> 02:10:21,000 Speaker 1: I would say, like Reims has always been transparent. But 2356 02:10:21,040 --> 02:10:24,920 Speaker 1: I've heard from counterparts in who are now you know, 2357 02:10:25,080 --> 02:10:27,760 Speaker 1: like there are other restaurants now coming out. I think 2358 02:10:27,800 --> 02:10:30,280 Speaker 1: there was even just an article that was released today 2359 02:10:31,120 --> 02:10:36,480 Speaker 1: on Eater about the Palestinian category on Google, and you know, 2360 02:10:37,440 --> 02:10:41,960 Speaker 1: people are now calling their restaurants, are maybe leading up 2361 02:10:42,600 --> 02:10:46,120 Speaker 1: to this last four months calling their restaurants Palestinian. And 2362 02:10:46,280 --> 02:10:49,600 Speaker 1: that was palatable enough. It's like cool, like it's this 2363 02:10:49,720 --> 02:10:52,800 Speaker 1: culture that's really beautiful. But then when it came down 2364 02:10:52,880 --> 02:10:56,040 Speaker 1: to it, when we're experiencing a genocide, it made people 2365 02:10:56,120 --> 02:10:59,600 Speaker 1: feel uncomfortable. So it's like they want to like it 2366 02:10:59,680 --> 02:11:02,440 Speaker 1: doesn't stop at food, you know, And I think our food, 2367 02:11:02,680 --> 02:11:05,920 Speaker 1: at least for me, and I would say for a 2368 02:11:06,000 --> 02:11:08,400 Speaker 1: lot of people who get into like expressing their food 2369 02:11:08,440 --> 02:11:11,280 Speaker 1: ways here in the US, Like you can't just take 2370 02:11:11,320 --> 02:11:16,240 Speaker 1: some of us our food and then dismiss the rest 2371 02:11:16,280 --> 02:11:18,360 Speaker 1: of us or dehumanize the rest of us. And so 2372 02:11:18,520 --> 02:11:22,040 Speaker 1: I think that is the contradiction that we're always dealing with, 2373 02:11:22,280 --> 02:11:25,480 Speaker 1: is like how can we offer this beautiful culture but 2374 02:11:25,600 --> 02:11:29,360 Speaker 1: not tokenize it so it becomes depoliticized because it is political. 2375 02:11:30,800 --> 02:11:34,280 Speaker 1: And if you're engaging with Palestinian cuisine and consuming it. 2376 02:11:35,040 --> 02:11:41,560 Speaker 1: You can't just you can't do it without either you know, 2377 02:11:42,840 --> 02:11:45,960 Speaker 1: being an active participant one way or the other, right, 2378 02:11:47,080 --> 02:11:49,840 Speaker 1: and what is happening to Palestinians. And so we kind 2379 02:11:49,840 --> 02:11:52,720 Speaker 1: of pushed the envelope on that, and you know, for 2380 02:11:52,920 --> 02:11:59,000 Speaker 1: us at Reams, that has yielded a real, ever expanding 2381 02:11:59,080 --> 02:12:06,080 Speaker 1: community of folks who have really maybe a few years ago, 2382 02:12:06,400 --> 02:12:08,560 Speaker 1: knew nothing about Palestine. We got to do it in 2383 02:12:08,640 --> 02:12:11,680 Speaker 1: a way that was right. And so we were you know, 2384 02:12:11,840 --> 02:12:14,320 Speaker 1: we met people where they're at. We bring them along. 2385 02:12:14,360 --> 02:12:18,320 Speaker 1: It's not like we're like, you know, beating anything over 2386 02:12:18,480 --> 02:12:20,960 Speaker 1: people's heads, but we're like, this is what it means 2387 02:12:21,040 --> 02:12:24,000 Speaker 1: to be truly authentically ourselves. This is our story, this 2388 02:12:24,160 --> 02:12:26,880 Speaker 1: is the history, this is the painful atrocities, And like, 2389 02:12:26,920 --> 02:12:28,240 Speaker 1: if you're going to eat our food, you have to 2390 02:12:28,320 --> 02:12:30,960 Speaker 1: engage with that in some way. Like it can't just 2391 02:12:31,000 --> 02:12:34,360 Speaker 1: be comfortable and like it's cool to eat Palestinian food. 2392 02:12:34,400 --> 02:12:37,440 Speaker 1: I don't want to see our food as a trend, right, Yeah, 2393 02:12:37,720 --> 02:12:40,840 Speaker 1: So while it's while it's cool to see a lot 2394 02:12:40,880 --> 02:12:45,720 Speaker 1: of Palestinian restaurants now gaining popularity, and hopefully, you know, 2395 02:12:45,840 --> 02:12:48,840 Speaker 1: REMS has paid some path for that we got to 2396 02:12:48,880 --> 02:12:50,480 Speaker 1: make sure that we're doing it in a way that's 2397 02:12:52,680 --> 02:12:56,480 Speaker 1: intentional and responsible so we don't get tokenized. 2398 02:12:57,560 --> 02:13:00,960 Speaker 7: I think one just like piggyback. One thought, one thought 2399 02:13:01,000 --> 02:13:02,800 Speaker 7: that you brought up Bream that I thought was really 2400 02:13:02,880 --> 02:13:06,640 Speaker 7: interesting was like being able to tell our own stories, 2401 02:13:07,720 --> 02:13:09,200 Speaker 7: and often we're not. 2402 02:13:09,680 --> 02:13:09,960 Speaker 4: We're not. 2403 02:13:10,920 --> 02:13:12,480 Speaker 7: And I think that relates to like a lot of 2404 02:13:12,520 --> 02:13:15,640 Speaker 7: what we've talked about today. But I mean even like 2405 02:13:15,720 --> 02:13:19,520 Speaker 7: sharing our own experiences, Like you know, I don't think 2406 02:13:19,560 --> 02:13:22,600 Speaker 7: it's necessarily a choice to be where you you know, 2407 02:13:22,720 --> 02:13:24,600 Speaker 7: to be who you are. It is what you are, 2408 02:13:25,560 --> 02:13:31,839 Speaker 7: and I think ultimately there's this real pressure for Arabs 2409 02:13:32,040 --> 02:13:35,720 Speaker 7: and in Palestinians as well, to sort of let other 2410 02:13:35,880 --> 02:13:39,080 Speaker 7: people tell our story for us, Let other people make 2411 02:13:39,160 --> 02:13:43,320 Speaker 7: the food, let other people photograph the traumas and the 2412 02:13:43,440 --> 02:13:47,160 Speaker 7: joy is like if you go to any like art 2413 02:13:47,200 --> 02:13:50,240 Speaker 7: bookstore and try to find like an Arab photographer photographing 2414 02:13:50,280 --> 02:13:53,680 Speaker 7: of their own people, whether it's the wars or the 2415 02:13:53,840 --> 02:13:58,880 Speaker 7: joy or art, like, you'll find maybe one, you know, 2416 02:13:59,040 --> 02:14:00,640 Speaker 7: And I've been to that and said, hey, do you 2417 02:14:00,720 --> 02:14:02,480 Speaker 7: have any I'm looking for like this, and I want 2418 02:14:02,520 --> 02:14:05,560 Speaker 7: it from an Arab person, And like the only one 2419 02:14:05,640 --> 02:14:09,080 Speaker 7: really is sharing a shot. Who's I'm Persian, But I 2420 02:14:09,120 --> 02:14:10,800 Speaker 7: don't know. I think it's I think it's just really 2421 02:14:10,880 --> 02:14:15,560 Speaker 7: interesting how I think there's like a real fear about 2422 02:14:15,600 --> 02:14:18,520 Speaker 7: talking about for a lot of us, about talking about 2423 02:14:18,520 --> 02:14:24,240 Speaker 7: our own experiences publicly. And I think a lot of that, 2424 02:14:24,680 --> 02:14:26,960 Speaker 7: A lot of that comes from just like being sort 2425 02:14:27,000 --> 02:14:30,879 Speaker 7: of conditioned in this country to minimize ourselves and minimize 2426 02:14:30,920 --> 02:14:31,480 Speaker 7: our identity. 2427 02:14:31,520 --> 02:14:38,400 Speaker 1: And I think essentially, well, there are real retributions for that. Yeah, 2428 02:14:38,840 --> 02:14:42,440 Speaker 1: we get jailed, we get deported, we get fired from 2429 02:14:42,480 --> 02:14:46,720 Speaker 1: our jobs. We don't get book deals, we don't get 2430 02:14:47,120 --> 02:14:51,680 Speaker 1: show deals. Yeah, as we're experiencing. So it's like that's real. 2431 02:14:53,240 --> 02:14:55,200 Speaker 7: Yeah, And I mean a lot of the a lot 2432 02:14:55,240 --> 02:14:57,840 Speaker 7: of the stuff we've a lot of the feedback we've 2433 02:14:57,880 --> 02:15:00,360 Speaker 7: gotten on the show. I mean early on, a couple 2434 02:15:00,400 --> 02:15:03,720 Speaker 7: of years ago, we started getting feedback that I mean 2435 02:15:03,720 --> 02:15:06,400 Speaker 7: there were like two or three when we first started pitching, 2436 02:15:06,560 --> 02:15:08,720 Speaker 7: and I won't call out names, but they were like 2437 02:15:08,840 --> 02:15:13,520 Speaker 7: major companies, and one of them was we already have 2438 02:15:14,000 --> 02:15:17,200 Speaker 7: like our minority food show. Like that was one of 2439 02:15:17,320 --> 02:15:22,560 Speaker 7: the literal pieces of feedback. And another one was and 2440 02:15:22,680 --> 02:15:25,040 Speaker 7: again like I just I know We've talked about Palestine 2441 02:15:25,040 --> 02:15:29,280 Speaker 7: a lot, but again, like the show is not necessarily 2442 02:15:29,400 --> 02:15:32,520 Speaker 7: centered around Palestinians. It's just us telling our own stories. 2443 02:15:33,200 --> 02:15:36,240 Speaker 7: And one of the pieces of feedback we got was 2444 02:15:37,920 --> 02:15:42,200 Speaker 7: they were worried that Reim and I like that our 2445 02:15:42,320 --> 02:15:46,800 Speaker 7: identities were too inherently political. And it's like, okay, but 2446 02:15:47,200 --> 02:15:52,080 Speaker 7: there's like nothing we can do about how you perceive us. 2447 02:15:53,240 --> 02:15:55,240 Speaker 7: What we can control is saying, hey, we want to 2448 02:15:55,240 --> 02:15:57,960 Speaker 7: make an Arab joy show, and we want to like 2449 02:15:58,160 --> 02:16:00,240 Speaker 7: show off the things we love about our called Sure, 2450 02:16:00,800 --> 02:16:03,680 Speaker 7: and we want to talk about how great the food tastes, 2451 02:16:03,840 --> 02:16:07,680 Speaker 7: and talk about stories like immigrant success stories of people 2452 02:16:07,760 --> 02:16:10,560 Speaker 7: coming to this country. And yeah, we'll talk about the trauma, 2453 02:16:10,600 --> 02:16:12,640 Speaker 7: and sure, we'll talk about the politics because that's what 2454 02:16:12,720 --> 02:16:18,040 Speaker 7: we're passionate about. But like to get that feedback even 2455 02:16:18,320 --> 02:16:21,000 Speaker 7: a couple of years ago, when you know, it seemed 2456 02:16:21,040 --> 02:16:24,720 Speaker 7: like everybody was sort of every culture or people were 2457 02:16:24,760 --> 02:16:28,440 Speaker 7: getting their turn to sort of shine, was I was like, really, 2458 02:16:28,480 --> 02:16:30,600 Speaker 7: are we still Are we still here right now? 2459 02:16:31,000 --> 02:16:31,200 Speaker 3: Yeah? 2460 02:16:31,720 --> 02:16:36,960 Speaker 7: And yeah, I mean it's gotten it's gotten weirder as 2461 02:16:37,080 --> 02:16:41,880 Speaker 7: time goes on, and you know, I don't know, no 2462 02:16:42,000 --> 02:16:45,080 Speaker 7: show exists like this in the way that probably no 2463 02:16:45,160 --> 02:16:48,400 Speaker 7: restaurant existed like Raim's did when she opened it. And 2464 02:16:48,600 --> 02:16:50,720 Speaker 7: I think it's going to take like someone who just 2465 02:16:50,800 --> 02:16:52,440 Speaker 7: really believes and is a champion for. 2466 02:16:54,280 --> 02:16:55,160 Speaker 5: Arab people. 2467 02:16:57,120 --> 02:16:59,080 Speaker 7: For us to make something that just shows how much 2468 02:16:59,160 --> 02:17:01,120 Speaker 7: we love our own peace people, and how excited we 2469 02:17:01,240 --> 02:17:03,520 Speaker 7: are to be Arab and how excited we are to 2470 02:17:03,640 --> 02:17:07,120 Speaker 7: be Palestinians, and how fucking awesome our food is and 2471 02:17:07,240 --> 02:17:09,760 Speaker 7: how great our culture is and how fun and exciting 2472 02:17:09,800 --> 02:17:13,800 Speaker 7: it is, and all these things that people love and eat. 2473 02:17:14,440 --> 02:17:16,280 Speaker 7: We just want to show them like where it comes 2474 02:17:16,360 --> 02:17:19,200 Speaker 7: from and who we are, and in addition to that, 2475 02:17:19,480 --> 02:17:23,240 Speaker 7: show that we're all regionally very different, like we call 2476 02:17:24,000 --> 02:17:27,280 Speaker 7: in this country. Every type of Arab food is called Mediterranean, 2477 02:17:27,760 --> 02:17:32,160 Speaker 7: whether it's Moroccan or Lebanese or Egyptian, and they're all 2478 02:17:32,440 --> 02:17:37,800 Speaker 7: so different, they're all wildly different. Yeah, And I think that, Yeah, 2479 02:17:37,959 --> 02:17:40,000 Speaker 7: like the fact that we haven't been able to tell 2480 02:17:40,040 --> 02:17:43,160 Speaker 7: this story is wild you know, like the fact that 2481 02:17:43,280 --> 02:17:45,879 Speaker 7: no one has and we've come really close. We've gotten 2482 02:17:45,879 --> 02:17:49,520 Speaker 7: into deals before, we've gotten into shopping agreements more recently, 2483 02:17:50,360 --> 02:17:53,680 Speaker 7: and sort of you know, the outcome felt punitive. After 2484 02:17:53,800 --> 02:18:00,320 Speaker 7: October seventh. And yeah, I think that ultimately the fact 2485 02:18:00,360 --> 02:18:03,800 Speaker 7: that like we we and it doesn't I you know, truly, 2486 02:18:04,200 --> 02:18:07,000 Speaker 7: I hope it's main rym but like the fact that 2487 02:18:07,120 --> 02:18:09,640 Speaker 7: no one has been able to tell this story for 2488 02:18:09,840 --> 02:18:12,280 Speaker 7: a group of people that is so huge in the 2489 02:18:12,320 --> 02:18:15,760 Speaker 7: Arab community, in the Muslim community, like that no one 2490 02:18:15,800 --> 02:18:19,240 Speaker 7: has been able to serve this demographic of people with 2491 02:18:19,800 --> 02:18:25,920 Speaker 7: a food show is wild and there's so many of 2492 02:18:26,040 --> 02:18:29,720 Speaker 7: us who would be so excited. I would be so excited, 2493 02:18:30,360 --> 02:18:32,400 Speaker 7: Like I would be bummed that it wasn't me, but 2494 02:18:32,440 --> 02:18:33,680 Speaker 7: I would be thrilled that. 2495 02:18:33,760 --> 02:18:34,959 Speaker 5: It happened for the community. 2496 02:18:35,840 --> 02:18:39,480 Speaker 7: And I don't know if not now when you know, 2497 02:18:39,800 --> 02:18:44,120 Speaker 7: like the time for the time for equity injustice as always. 2498 02:18:44,480 --> 02:18:47,280 Speaker 7: And I think that's generally how I sort of feel 2499 02:18:47,280 --> 02:18:50,400 Speaker 7: about the the show and just being able to like 2500 02:18:50,480 --> 02:18:52,560 Speaker 7: I just want to tell the story for my community 2501 02:18:52,720 --> 02:18:57,200 Speaker 7: so badly, And yeah, I mean, I don't know, I 2502 02:18:57,440 --> 02:18:58,720 Speaker 7: feel like I went on a bit of a tangent. 2503 02:18:58,959 --> 02:19:00,760 Speaker 7: That's kind of where I feel I am right now. 2504 02:19:02,440 --> 02:19:05,959 Speaker 1: Well, in a time of in a time of genocide 2505 02:19:06,000 --> 02:19:09,480 Speaker 1: where literally are people and this is not just past that, 2506 02:19:09,560 --> 02:19:13,800 Speaker 1: it's not you know, there's a regional are the dehumanization 2507 02:19:13,959 --> 02:19:19,959 Speaker 1: of Arabs is costing us lives. Yeah, so it feels 2508 02:19:20,080 --> 02:19:22,080 Speaker 1: that much more important. 2509 02:19:23,280 --> 02:19:24,400 Speaker 7: To do this work now. 2510 02:19:24,959 --> 02:19:25,039 Speaker 3: Ye. 2511 02:19:25,879 --> 02:19:32,039 Speaker 9: People are so used to seeing us seeing Arabs like traumatized, 2512 02:19:32,080 --> 02:19:34,040 Speaker 9: are used to seeing us in pain. They're used to 2513 02:19:34,040 --> 02:19:37,720 Speaker 9: seeing our countries destroyed and seeing our buildings turn into rubble. 2514 02:19:37,760 --> 02:19:40,800 Speaker 9: I think so much of our culture is so beautiful, 2515 02:19:40,959 --> 02:19:43,280 Speaker 9: and so much of it is about food and art 2516 02:19:43,480 --> 02:19:49,160 Speaker 9: and joy. I think it's really Yeah, I would be 2517 02:19:49,240 --> 02:19:52,080 Speaker 9: so excited for that show too, because I if I 2518 02:19:52,160 --> 02:19:54,160 Speaker 9: was a little kid watching that, I would have felt 2519 02:19:54,200 --> 02:19:56,360 Speaker 9: so much better about myself. And to your point a 2520 02:19:56,400 --> 02:20:00,920 Speaker 9: couple minutes ago, Realm, you were talking about how you're 2521 02:20:00,920 --> 02:20:05,000 Speaker 9: not exactly a mediator, but growing up, there's almost this 2522 02:20:05,200 --> 02:20:07,560 Speaker 9: like shame about having like you're not Arab enough, you're 2523 02:20:07,560 --> 02:20:09,680 Speaker 9: not American enough. You have a foot in both worlds. 2524 02:20:09,959 --> 02:20:13,240 Speaker 9: But it's really a strength, you know, in your experience 2525 02:20:13,280 --> 02:20:17,040 Speaker 9: and in our experience, Like we can use that foot 2526 02:20:17,080 --> 02:20:20,199 Speaker 9: in both worlds to our advantage and try to show 2527 02:20:20,320 --> 02:20:23,920 Speaker 9: the American community how beautiful our community is. And I 2528 02:20:23,959 --> 02:20:29,400 Speaker 9: don't know, I think it's yeah, I love you guys. 2529 02:20:32,600 --> 02:20:34,440 Speaker 1: That's what it comes down to it. 2530 02:20:34,840 --> 02:20:39,840 Speaker 9: Yeah, but I really do appreciate you both doing this work, 2531 02:20:40,160 --> 02:20:46,480 Speaker 9: and yeah, reminding us that it's Arab culture isn't something 2532 02:20:46,520 --> 02:20:48,960 Speaker 9: to be feared. I don't know that the humanization has 2533 02:20:49,000 --> 02:20:51,000 Speaker 9: gotten to a point that it's just really terrifying. And 2534 02:20:51,120 --> 02:20:53,400 Speaker 9: so I think the fact that even existing is like 2535 02:20:54,200 --> 02:20:57,840 Speaker 9: political or scary, and yeah, you to your point, everything 2536 02:20:57,959 --> 02:21:01,360 Speaker 9: is so much more digestible for people an Arab or 2537 02:21:01,440 --> 02:21:03,840 Speaker 9: than Muslim or whatever. Like in La we have a 2538 02:21:03,959 --> 02:21:08,360 Speaker 9: huge Armenian community and they're really embraced, and I would 2539 02:21:08,400 --> 02:21:09,879 Speaker 9: love that to happen for us too. 2540 02:21:10,640 --> 02:21:14,240 Speaker 1: The backlash of being Arab feels very real and visceral 2541 02:21:14,400 --> 02:21:17,880 Speaker 1: right now, feels like we are in a time of 2542 02:21:18,440 --> 02:21:24,680 Speaker 1: the years after nine eleven again, and especially with this 2543 02:21:25,560 --> 02:21:31,360 Speaker 1: upcoming election in twenty twenty four, it's a really, I 2544 02:21:31,440 --> 02:21:40,320 Speaker 1: think a scary time of censorship for Arabs in general 2545 02:21:40,920 --> 02:21:48,560 Speaker 1: and Muslim communities. Regardless of who the candidate who wins 2546 02:21:48,640 --> 02:21:55,119 Speaker 1: our political campaign, it's quite clear that the policies towards us, 2547 02:21:56,000 --> 02:21:58,440 Speaker 1: you know, the foreign policy, but also domestically, how that 2548 02:21:58,640 --> 02:22:04,560 Speaker 1: has translated into hate crimes against Arabs simply for being 2549 02:22:04,640 --> 02:22:09,400 Speaker 1: Arab is a really scary thing. And so yeah, it's 2550 02:22:09,560 --> 02:22:13,040 Speaker 1: just a new thing that we're going to have to 2551 02:22:13,160 --> 02:22:15,840 Speaker 1: navigate in this in this new era. 2552 02:22:17,480 --> 02:22:20,640 Speaker 9: Yeah, I think on that note, like community is so 2553 02:22:20,720 --> 02:22:23,960 Speaker 9: important and I'm really grateful to continue to foster the 2554 02:22:24,000 --> 02:22:28,720 Speaker 9: community around me as well. And I think with food, 2555 02:22:29,520 --> 02:22:32,520 Speaker 9: with Palestinian culture in general, it relies so much on 2556 02:22:32,760 --> 02:22:36,200 Speaker 9: us remembering and continuing to talk about it and not 2557 02:22:36,480 --> 02:22:38,879 Speaker 9: letting anyone forget about it. And so I think food 2558 02:22:39,000 --> 02:22:41,600 Speaker 9: is the same way. It's just reminding everyone this is 2559 02:22:41,640 --> 02:22:43,600 Speaker 9: where it comes from, this is how important it is, 2560 02:22:44,000 --> 02:22:46,120 Speaker 9: this is what it means to the culture. You can't 2561 02:22:46,240 --> 02:22:47,920 Speaker 9: enjoy some of our culture and not all of it, 2562 02:22:48,040 --> 02:22:49,920 Speaker 9: I guess, And I feel like that happens all the time. 2563 02:22:50,400 --> 02:22:52,760 Speaker 9: I really appreciate you guys both being on the show 2564 02:22:52,959 --> 02:22:57,000 Speaker 9: and talking a little bit about your stories, and yeah, 2565 02:22:57,520 --> 02:23:00,640 Speaker 9: I can't wait to see the show happen day because 2566 02:23:00,640 --> 02:23:02,359 Speaker 9: it will happen awesome. 2567 02:23:02,600 --> 02:23:06,959 Speaker 1: Thank you. Yeah, thanks for the work that I'm doing, 2568 02:23:07,320 --> 02:23:13,240 Speaker 1: especially as it relates to food and hospitality. I was 2569 02:23:13,320 --> 02:23:16,480 Speaker 1: one of the founders of an effort called Hospitality for Humanity, 2570 02:23:17,360 --> 02:23:22,080 Speaker 1: and you can find us on at Hospitality the. 2571 02:23:22,160 --> 02:23:24,560 Speaker 3: Number four pal P a L. 2572 02:23:25,280 --> 02:23:29,200 Speaker 1: You know, we continue to do things at REMS and 2573 02:23:29,320 --> 02:23:32,080 Speaker 1: you can see us on the socials at REEMS, California, 2574 02:23:33,600 --> 02:23:37,440 Speaker 1: and then you can obviously follow my whereabouts at rem 2575 02:23:38,920 --> 02:23:40,039 Speaker 1: dot A seal. 2576 02:23:39,959 --> 02:23:40,720 Speaker 5: A s Sil. 2577 02:23:41,480 --> 02:23:43,480 Speaker 9: I could put all your links in the description as well, 2578 02:23:44,240 --> 02:23:45,520 Speaker 9: but you're real. Do you want to be found on 2579 02:23:45,600 --> 02:23:46,000 Speaker 9: the internet? 2580 02:23:46,080 --> 02:23:47,439 Speaker 3: And if so, where. 2581 02:23:49,240 --> 02:23:50,360 Speaker 7: I don't know how much I want to be found 2582 02:23:50,400 --> 02:23:50,840 Speaker 7: on the internet. 2583 02:23:50,959 --> 02:23:53,680 Speaker 5: I will plug that. I think everyone should call. 2584 02:23:53,600 --> 02:23:57,720 Speaker 7: Their senators and demand a ceasefire immediately, and also consider 2585 02:23:57,800 --> 02:24:01,440 Speaker 7: donating to one of many nonprofits, but the one that 2586 02:24:01,720 --> 02:24:07,200 Speaker 7: I have is Gaza Emergency Appeal, and uh, just ask 2587 02:24:07,280 --> 02:24:10,039 Speaker 7: for a ceasefire as much as possible. But also if somebody. 2588 02:24:09,879 --> 02:24:11,200 Speaker 1: Demanded, they'll find me. 2589 02:24:12,680 --> 02:24:19,280 Speaker 7: Demand demanded. Don't ask, sir, please can I have? Can 2590 02:24:19,320 --> 02:24:19,560 Speaker 7: I have a? 2591 02:24:22,160 --> 02:24:22,480 Speaker 1: Please? 2592 02:24:22,760 --> 02:24:26,640 Speaker 9: But no, please, everyone that's listening, keep talking about Palestine, 2593 02:24:26,760 --> 02:24:32,760 Speaker 9: keep sharing info from Palestinians themselves, and yeah three Palestine. 2594 02:24:34,879 --> 02:24:52,160 Speaker 6: Yes, Hello, and welcome back to It could happen here. 2595 02:24:52,400 --> 02:24:55,000 Speaker 6: I am once again your guest host, Molly Conger, and 2596 02:24:55,160 --> 02:24:57,600 Speaker 6: today I'm going to tell you about something that is 2597 02:24:58,080 --> 02:25:03,600 Speaker 6: happening here. Being my hometown of Charlottesville, Virginia. You might 2598 02:25:03,640 --> 02:25:06,320 Speaker 6: have seen the news recently that Patriot Front leader Thomas 2599 02:25:06,440 --> 02:25:08,760 Speaker 6: Ryan Russou was arrested in Texas on an out of 2600 02:25:08,800 --> 02:25:13,360 Speaker 6: state felony warrant. On February twenty third, authorities in McLennan County, Texas, 2601 02:25:13,480 --> 02:25:16,800 Speaker 6: arrested Rousseau and poked him into the county jail. The 2602 02:25:16,879 --> 02:25:20,920 Speaker 6: jail roster lists the offense as burn object to intimidate 2603 02:25:21,320 --> 02:25:25,440 Speaker 6: OH slash s that OS means out of state, and 2604 02:25:25,560 --> 02:25:28,760 Speaker 6: it lists Virginia as the state issuing the warrant. And 2605 02:25:28,879 --> 02:25:31,640 Speaker 6: Rousseau's arrest certainly made a splash when the news hit 2606 02:25:31,800 --> 02:25:34,760 Speaker 6: Nazi telegram channels lit up with posts about his arrest. 2607 02:25:34,920 --> 02:25:38,520 Speaker 6: Gab feeds were flooded with hastily made graphics decrying this 2608 02:25:38,680 --> 02:25:42,720 Speaker 6: political persecution. This sudden spike and interest in a little 2609 02:25:42,800 --> 02:25:46,040 Speaker 6: used Virginia Code section might make you think Rousseau was 2610 02:25:46,080 --> 02:25:48,480 Speaker 6: the first person to be taken into custody on this charge, 2611 02:25:49,040 --> 02:25:51,840 Speaker 6: that perhaps he was targeted for arrest in some kind 2612 02:25:51,840 --> 02:25:54,400 Speaker 6: of grand political plan to take him out of the game. 2613 02:25:55,480 --> 02:25:58,560 Speaker 6: But he is in fact the eleventh person to be 2614 02:25:58,680 --> 02:26:01,440 Speaker 6: arrested in just the last year for participating in the 2615 02:26:01,480 --> 02:26:04,879 Speaker 6: Tiki Torch march at the University of Virginia on August eleventh, 2616 02:26:05,160 --> 02:26:08,640 Speaker 6: twenty seventeen. These cases have been working their way through 2617 02:26:08,640 --> 02:26:11,120 Speaker 6: the system here for long enough that some of Rousseau's 2618 02:26:11,120 --> 02:26:14,320 Speaker 6: code defendants have not only already been found guilty, they've 2619 02:26:14,440 --> 02:26:17,440 Speaker 6: served their time and gotten back out. But with this 2620 02:26:17,560 --> 02:26:20,000 Speaker 6: sudden surge and interest in this case, I want to 2621 02:26:20,000 --> 02:26:22,119 Speaker 6: give you all a little background on the other ten. 2622 02:26:23,120 --> 02:26:25,280 Speaker 6: If you'll indulge me for a moment, though, I'd like 2623 02:26:25,320 --> 02:26:27,160 Speaker 6: to read you something I wrote nearly a year ago, 2624 02:26:28,080 --> 02:26:31,760 Speaker 6: just as the first cases were being unsealed. There is 2625 02:26:31,840 --> 02:26:35,320 Speaker 6: no statute of limitations on felonies in Virginia. With that 2626 02:26:35,480 --> 02:26:39,080 Speaker 6: in mind, here's section eighteen point two Dash four twenty 2627 02:26:39,120 --> 02:26:43,080 Speaker 6: three point oh one Dash B of the Code of Virginia. 2628 02:26:44,160 --> 02:26:47,320 Speaker 6: Burning object on property of another or a highway or 2629 02:26:47,360 --> 02:26:51,320 Speaker 6: other public place with intent to intimidate. Any person who, 2630 02:26:51,600 --> 02:26:54,560 Speaker 6: with the intent of intimidating any person or group of persons, 2631 02:26:54,760 --> 02:26:57,200 Speaker 6: burns an object on a highway or other public place 2632 02:26:57,680 --> 02:26:59,920 Speaker 6: in a manner having a direct tendency to place another 2633 02:27:00,000 --> 02:27:02,560 Speaker 6: their person in reasonable fear or apprehension of death or 2634 02:27:02,600 --> 02:27:07,120 Speaker 6: bodily injury, is guilty of a Class six felony On 2635 02:27:07,200 --> 02:27:11,720 Speaker 6: August eleventh, twenty seventeen, hundreds of torch bearing marchers traversed 2636 02:27:11,760 --> 02:27:14,800 Speaker 6: the grounds of the University of Virginia. They'd come to 2637 02:27:14,920 --> 02:27:18,520 Speaker 6: Charllettsville from across the country, taking Friday morning flights or 2638 02:27:18,600 --> 02:27:20,800 Speaker 6: taking turns at the wheel for cross country drives, and 2639 02:27:20,840 --> 02:27:24,520 Speaker 6: rented vans with guys they met on message boards. Arriving 2640 02:27:24,560 --> 02:27:27,600 Speaker 6: early before the big event. The following morning, they gathered 2641 02:27:27,600 --> 02:27:30,880 Speaker 6: at Nameless Field, a grassy acre near the Via tennis 2642 02:27:30,920 --> 02:27:35,200 Speaker 6: courts with a deceptive name, and distributed tiki torches. Men 2643 02:27:35,280 --> 02:27:38,480 Speaker 6: with walkie talkies clipped to their belts, some with wired earpieces, 2644 02:27:38,720 --> 02:27:43,000 Speaker 6: barked orders. Elliot Kleine, an ambitious young white nationalist organizer 2645 02:27:43,080 --> 02:27:46,520 Speaker 6: calling himself Eli Moseley after the twentieth century British fascist 2646 02:27:46,760 --> 02:27:49,840 Speaker 6: Oswald Moseley, shouted at the crowd as they formed into 2647 02:27:49,920 --> 02:27:54,720 Speaker 6: a line. Or picking big guys no females. Klein and 2648 02:27:54,800 --> 02:27:57,160 Speaker 6: his security team would be selecting the biggest marshers to 2649 02:27:57,240 --> 02:27:59,520 Speaker 6: lay down their torches and keep the perimeter as the 2650 02:27:59,560 --> 02:28:02,560 Speaker 6: march moved moved through the university grounds, they might need 2651 02:28:02,600 --> 02:28:05,880 Speaker 6: their hands free. The march wound its way through grounds 2652 02:28:06,320 --> 02:28:08,560 Speaker 6: up the lawn, then up the steps of the University 2653 02:28:08,600 --> 02:28:12,120 Speaker 6: of Virginia's iconic rotunda. On the other side of the rotunda, 2654 02:28:12,240 --> 02:28:15,480 Speaker 6: gathered near the statue of Thomas Jefferson, a small group 2655 02:28:15,520 --> 02:28:19,360 Speaker 6: of anti racist protesters waited. In her testimony during a 2656 02:28:19,400 --> 02:28:21,680 Speaker 6: later civil trial, one of the women who was terrorized 2657 02:28:21,720 --> 02:28:23,840 Speaker 6: that night said of the sound of the approaching crowd, 2658 02:28:24,920 --> 02:28:27,840 Speaker 6: when we heard the roaring, we just linked arms and 2659 02:28:27,920 --> 02:28:30,000 Speaker 6: held hands and started to sing. 2660 02:28:31,120 --> 02:28:31,440 Speaker 4: She said. 2661 02:28:31,440 --> 02:28:36,240 Speaker 6: At first it sounded like thunder, like the earth was growling. 2662 02:28:37,320 --> 02:28:39,440 Speaker 6: As they grew closer, but before she could see the 2663 02:28:39,520 --> 02:28:41,960 Speaker 6: light of the torches, she began to make out the 2664 02:28:42,080 --> 02:28:47,279 Speaker 6: chance hundreds of voices raised in Unison, shouting blood and soil. 2665 02:28:48,400 --> 02:28:51,360 Speaker 6: Testifying about that night four years later, she said she 2666 02:28:51,440 --> 02:28:55,520 Speaker 6: could still hear it sometimes in her nightmares, and by 2667 02:28:55,560 --> 02:28:58,080 Speaker 6: the time the small group of mostly students realized the 2668 02:28:58,160 --> 02:29:01,320 Speaker 6: magnitude and ferocity of the approaching it was too late. 2669 02:29:02,160 --> 02:29:04,880 Speaker 6: They were surrounded, fully encircled at the base of the 2670 02:29:04,920 --> 02:29:08,920 Speaker 6: statue by hundreds of torch wielding white supremacists for a 2671 02:29:09,000 --> 02:29:11,480 Speaker 6: few minutes, minutes that those trapped at the base of 2672 02:29:11,520 --> 02:29:13,879 Speaker 6: the statue said they believed might be their last, as 2673 02:29:13,920 --> 02:29:17,039 Speaker 6: they were doused in lighter fluid, maced and punched. There 2674 02:29:17,120 --> 02:29:20,039 Speaker 6: was a melee. The police made no move to intervene, 2675 02:29:20,080 --> 02:29:22,840 Speaker 6: as streams of pepper spray were let loose and cries 2676 02:29:22,879 --> 02:29:25,880 Speaker 6: of medic were audible above the roar of you will 2677 02:29:25,959 --> 02:29:29,680 Speaker 6: not replace us. When the trapped counter protesters were finally 2678 02:29:29,720 --> 02:29:32,879 Speaker 6: able to flee, stumbling blindly with burning eyes and covering 2679 02:29:32,920 --> 02:29:35,240 Speaker 6: their heads in a hail storm of fists and torches, 2680 02:29:35,920 --> 02:29:40,240 Speaker 6: the marchers declared victory. Richard Spencer, an organizer of that 2681 02:29:40,320 --> 02:29:42,880 Speaker 6: weekend's rally, climbed the base of the statue and delivered 2682 02:29:42,879 --> 02:29:46,600 Speaker 6: a victory speech to the still roaring crowd, now shouting hail, victory, 2683 02:29:46,760 --> 02:29:50,960 Speaker 6: hail's Spencer, as Spencer told them, we occupy this ground, 2684 02:29:51,440 --> 02:30:02,400 Speaker 6: we one, that is why don't they cry? 2685 02:30:12,680 --> 02:30:16,840 Speaker 1: There? All right? All right, all right? 2686 02:30:17,120 --> 02:30:18,359 Speaker 8: Were these freaks? 2687 02:30:19,000 --> 02:30:19,280 Speaker 4: We on? 2688 02:30:19,520 --> 02:30:21,760 Speaker 6: These freaks we are he's. 2689 02:30:21,680 --> 02:30:31,120 Speaker 3: Brown, We on these one. What in the hell are 2690 02:30:31,200 --> 02:30:33,480 Speaker 3: we doing out here? What in the hell are we doing? 2691 02:30:33,600 --> 02:30:37,920 Speaker 3: Risking our lives? Were risking our lives for our people, 2692 02:30:38,240 --> 02:30:42,160 Speaker 3: for our ancestors, for our future. That's how we're doing. 2693 02:30:48,879 --> 02:30:51,640 Speaker 3: What do you think it? Anti fock can defeat our 2694 02:30:51,879 --> 02:30:55,200 Speaker 3: wrong do you think it anti focking to feed our group. 2695 02:30:55,640 --> 02:30:59,039 Speaker 3: They have to because they have to go to fix line. 2696 02:31:00,080 --> 02:31:03,879 Speaker 6: The marchers dispersed to their various hotels, campgrounds, and Arabian bees. 2697 02:31:04,440 --> 02:31:07,000 Speaker 6: Spencer later said cheekly that he booked his under the 2698 02:31:07,000 --> 02:31:11,600 Speaker 6: pseudonym literally Hitler. They had to rest up for the 2699 02:31:11,640 --> 02:31:15,320 Speaker 6: real battle in the morning, and while they slept, a 2700 02:31:15,400 --> 02:31:18,720 Speaker 6: young man from Ohio was driving through the night, perhaps 2701 02:31:18,760 --> 02:31:21,680 Speaker 6: already knowing that his gray Dodge Challenger would be impounded 2702 02:31:21,720 --> 02:31:25,560 Speaker 6: as a murder weapon. Before he slept again, he checked 2703 02:31:25,600 --> 02:31:29,600 Speaker 6: Twitter and retweeted a post David Duke had tweeted images 2704 02:31:29,640 --> 02:31:32,920 Speaker 6: of the Torch March celebrating the Altright's success that evening 2705 02:31:33,040 --> 02:31:36,400 Speaker 6: with the caption our people on the march, will you 2706 02:31:36,600 --> 02:31:39,680 Speaker 6: be at Unite the Right tomorrow? As he left Ohio 2707 02:31:39,800 --> 02:31:42,160 Speaker 6: that evening, the young man and the Dodge Challenger got 2708 02:31:42,200 --> 02:31:45,039 Speaker 6: a text from his mother, a text we've all probably 2709 02:31:45,080 --> 02:31:50,400 Speaker 6: gotten from our mothers. She said, be careful, and James 2710 02:31:50,440 --> 02:31:53,000 Speaker 6: Alexfield's junior, in one of the last texts he sent 2711 02:31:53,160 --> 02:31:57,000 Speaker 6: before a lifetime behind bars, replied to his mother with 2712 02:31:57,080 --> 02:32:00,720 Speaker 6: a photograph of Hitler and the words we are not 2713 02:32:00,920 --> 02:32:06,040 Speaker 6: the ones who need to be careful. Years later, the 2714 02:32:06,120 --> 02:32:09,720 Speaker 6: word charles Ville has become synonymous with those two fused images, 2715 02:32:10,160 --> 02:32:13,800 Speaker 6: Fields's mangled challenger and an iconic photo of the crowd 2716 02:32:14,160 --> 02:32:18,480 Speaker 6: torches and hands the rotunda at their backs. Fields was 2717 02:32:18,560 --> 02:32:21,520 Speaker 6: convicted both in state and federal court of Heather Hire's 2718 02:32:21,600 --> 02:32:25,840 Speaker 6: murder and multiple counts of aggravated malicious wounding. Daniel Bordon, 2719 02:32:26,000 --> 02:32:29,840 Speaker 6: Alex Ramos, Jacob Goodwin, and Tyler Watkins went away for 2720 02:32:29,879 --> 02:32:33,320 Speaker 6: a brutal gang beating of a young black man. Richard Preston, 2721 02:32:33,400 --> 02:32:35,920 Speaker 6: an imperial wizard in the Ku Klux Klan, did some 2722 02:32:36,040 --> 02:32:38,440 Speaker 6: time for discharging his firearm in the general direction of 2723 02:32:38,440 --> 02:32:43,040 Speaker 6: another young black man while shouting die and word. But 2724 02:32:43,160 --> 02:32:45,200 Speaker 6: all in all, for all the violence of both days, 2725 02:32:45,520 --> 02:32:47,840 Speaker 6: there was a curious reluctance to bring charges for anything 2726 02:32:47,879 --> 02:32:50,600 Speaker 6: that didn't rise to the level of attempted murder, and 2727 02:32:50,720 --> 02:32:54,280 Speaker 6: some things that did. There are thousands of photographs videos 2728 02:32:54,280 --> 02:32:58,759 Speaker 6: from every conceivable angle taken by victims, bystanders, professional photojournalists, 2729 02:32:58,800 --> 02:33:03,320 Speaker 6: and even the marchers themselves. Their faces are uncovered, their 2730 02:33:03,400 --> 02:33:08,400 Speaker 6: motives are clear, and the law is fairly straightforward. But 2731 02:33:08,480 --> 02:33:11,840 Speaker 6: the University of Virginia lies within the jurisdiction of Albemarle County. 2732 02:33:12,560 --> 02:33:16,240 Speaker 6: In twenty seventeen, Apomwalle County Commonweal's attorney, Robert Tracy, chose 2733 02:33:16,320 --> 02:33:19,040 Speaker 6: not to bring any burning objects cases under Section eighteen 2734 02:33:19,080 --> 02:33:21,760 Speaker 6: point two Dash four twenty three. He didn't think he 2735 02:33:21,800 --> 02:33:24,760 Speaker 6: could make a case against the tiki torch mob, or 2736 02:33:24,800 --> 02:33:28,000 Speaker 6: maybe he didn't want to. The Commonweal's attorney for the 2737 02:33:28,040 --> 02:33:30,200 Speaker 6: City of Charlesville at the time, Dave Chapman, wrote in 2738 02:33:30,200 --> 02:33:32,120 Speaker 6: a memo in October of that year that he did 2739 02:33:32,200 --> 02:33:34,880 Speaker 6: believe the cases could be made, but they weren't his 2740 02:33:35,040 --> 02:33:39,320 Speaker 6: to prosecute. But in Virginia, prosecutors come and go, and 2741 02:33:39,400 --> 02:33:43,760 Speaker 6: a felony lives forever. In a October twenty nineteen debate 2742 02:33:43,840 --> 02:33:47,600 Speaker 6: between then sitting Prosecutor Robert Tracy and his challenger, Jim Hinchley, 2743 02:33:48,680 --> 02:33:51,440 Speaker 6: Tracy again scoffed at the idea of indicting these cases, 2744 02:33:52,400 --> 02:33:55,000 Speaker 6: even saying that Hindley's belief that it was possible was 2745 02:33:55,040 --> 02:33:57,240 Speaker 6: a sign he was inexperienced and wrong for the job. 2746 02:33:58,520 --> 02:34:02,320 Speaker 6: A month later, Hine won the election, and now it 2747 02:34:02,400 --> 02:34:04,760 Speaker 6: seems he's trying to make good on his campaign promise 2748 02:34:05,120 --> 02:34:08,560 Speaker 6: of proving Robert Tracy wrong. In February twenty twenty three, 2749 02:34:08,600 --> 02:34:12,320 Speaker 6: the Albumole County Commonwealth' Attorney's office quietly sought and got 2750 02:34:12,760 --> 02:34:16,360 Speaker 6: indictments under the Burning Object Statute. A grand jury agreed 2751 02:34:16,400 --> 02:34:19,960 Speaker 6: with Hingeley there was probable cause to believe that objects 2752 02:34:20,000 --> 02:34:24,080 Speaker 6: had been burned with the intent to intimidate. Fugitive warrants 2753 02:34:24,120 --> 02:34:27,080 Speaker 6: were issued, arrests were made by local police and far 2754 02:34:27,200 --> 02:34:31,400 Speaker 6: ranging jurisdictions, And now, nearly six years after that hot 2755 02:34:31,480 --> 02:34:35,480 Speaker 6: night in August, the extraditions are starting. I want to 2756 02:34:35,520 --> 02:34:37,280 Speaker 6: share with you the stories of the men who carried 2757 02:34:37,320 --> 02:34:40,320 Speaker 6: torches that night. Some of them are now facing felony 2758 02:34:40,400 --> 02:34:44,039 Speaker 6: charges of Almorole County. Others may come to share that fate. 2759 02:34:45,120 --> 02:34:47,400 Speaker 6: After the crowd dispersed that night, and after the deadly 2760 02:34:47,480 --> 02:34:52,160 Speaker 6: rally the next morning, those men went home. Some started businesses, 2761 02:34:52,920 --> 02:34:57,760 Speaker 6: some died, Some trafficked drugs, beat their wives, choked their girlfriends, 2762 02:34:57,840 --> 02:35:00,760 Speaker 6: went to grad school, went to prison, started families, ran 2763 02:35:00,840 --> 02:35:04,080 Speaker 6: for office, left the movement, tried to lead the movement, 2764 02:35:04,840 --> 02:35:07,920 Speaker 6: or just tried to disappear. There are as many stories 2765 02:35:07,959 --> 02:35:10,080 Speaker 6: as there were flames in the night. When their voices 2766 02:35:10,160 --> 02:35:16,160 Speaker 6: joined as one shouting Jews will not replace us, then 2767 02:35:16,320 --> 02:35:19,959 Speaker 6: going their separate ways back to the communities they came from. 2768 02:35:21,440 --> 02:35:24,360 Speaker 6: And now some of them are on their way back, 2769 02:35:25,560 --> 02:35:30,160 Speaker 6: this time against their will. So I wrote that about 2770 02:35:30,200 --> 02:35:32,520 Speaker 6: ten months ago, last April, just as the first cases 2771 02:35:32,560 --> 02:35:36,520 Speaker 6: were unsealed. Obviously a lot's happened since then. But before 2772 02:35:36,560 --> 02:35:38,800 Speaker 6: I get into a recap of those first ten cases, 2773 02:35:38,959 --> 02:35:42,640 Speaker 6: let's hear a brief word about some products and services. 2774 02:35:53,959 --> 02:35:57,800 Speaker 6: So if Thomas Rousseau is number eleven on this list 2775 02:35:57,879 --> 02:36:01,640 Speaker 6: of tiki torch defendants, they were the first ten. The 2776 02:36:01,680 --> 02:36:04,240 Speaker 6: grand jury that convened in February of last year handed 2777 02:36:04,280 --> 02:36:09,880 Speaker 6: down the first five indictments. Will Zachary Smith, William Billy Williams, 2778 02:36:10,440 --> 02:36:15,440 Speaker 6: Tyler Dykes, Dallas, Medina, and William Fears. Will Smith of Nacona, 2779 02:36:15,520 --> 02:36:19,400 Speaker 6: Texas was the first in custody. He was actually already 2780 02:36:19,480 --> 02:36:22,240 Speaker 6: in custody here in Charlottesville when the first charges were filed. 2781 02:36:23,160 --> 02:36:25,440 Speaker 6: He had been indicted on a separate felony charge back 2782 02:36:25,440 --> 02:36:28,480 Speaker 6: in twenty eighteen for pepper spraying the counter protesters that night, 2783 02:36:28,879 --> 02:36:31,520 Speaker 6: but remained a fugitive until his arrest in January twenty 2784 02:36:31,600 --> 02:36:34,760 Speaker 6: twenty three. So when the prosecutor brought the torch charges 2785 02:36:34,800 --> 02:36:37,000 Speaker 6: to the grand jury in February. It was probably an 2786 02:36:37,000 --> 02:36:40,600 Speaker 6: easy first choice. Will Smith pled guilty to the torch 2787 02:36:40,720 --> 02:36:43,760 Speaker 6: charge in May in a sealed plea deal that dropped 2788 02:36:43,840 --> 02:36:47,840 Speaker 6: the much more serious pepper spray felony, and was allowed 2789 02:36:47,840 --> 02:36:52,680 Speaker 6: to return home without being sentenced. Billy Williams traveled here 2790 02:36:52,760 --> 02:36:55,760 Speaker 6: with will Smith back in twenty seventeen. The pair were 2791 02:36:55,800 --> 02:37:00,000 Speaker 6: acting as bodyguards for Robert Hasmadore Ray, the Daily Stormer bloger, 2792 02:37:00,160 --> 02:37:03,960 Speaker 6: who is actually also still a wanted fugitive on a 2793 02:37:04,040 --> 02:37:06,959 Speaker 6: felony charge of pepper spraying those counter protesters that night. 2794 02:37:08,520 --> 02:37:11,160 Speaker 6: When Billy Williams was extradited from Texas in April of 2795 02:37:11,280 --> 02:37:16,679 Speaker 6: last year, he was denied bond after some apparent dishonesty 2796 02:37:17,480 --> 02:37:20,960 Speaker 6: regarding his relationship with Robert Ray. Through his attorney, he 2797 02:37:21,200 --> 02:37:23,760 Speaker 6: denied having had any contact with Ray while he was 2798 02:37:23,800 --> 02:37:27,400 Speaker 6: a fugitive. He in fact claimed they barely knew each other, 2799 02:37:27,480 --> 02:37:30,240 Speaker 6: having met only a couple of times. I can tell 2800 02:37:30,240 --> 02:37:34,200 Speaker 6: you that that's not true. But after claiming that they'd 2801 02:37:34,200 --> 02:37:38,040 Speaker 6: had no contact in the intervening years, the prosecutor revealed 2802 02:37:38,080 --> 02:37:41,200 Speaker 6: in the bond hearing that law enforcement partners had shared 2803 02:37:41,240 --> 02:37:44,800 Speaker 6: information with his office that they believe that not only 2804 02:37:44,840 --> 02:37:47,320 Speaker 6: had they been contact, but that Ray had been living 2805 02:37:47,440 --> 02:37:50,440 Speaker 6: with Williams living on his property while he was in 2806 02:37:50,560 --> 02:37:54,240 Speaker 6: hiding as a fugitive. Williams two pled guilty to the 2807 02:37:54,280 --> 02:37:57,480 Speaker 6: burning object charge in July, receiving an active sentence of 2808 02:37:57,520 --> 02:38:01,280 Speaker 6: six months but with times and good behavior. He was 2809 02:38:01,360 --> 02:38:04,760 Speaker 6: home barely two weeks after entering his plea, but not 2810 02:38:04,920 --> 02:38:07,760 Speaker 6: before he missed the birth of his seventh child with 2811 02:38:07,840 --> 02:38:11,080 Speaker 6: his common law wife. Tyler Diykes was arrested on Saint 2812 02:38:11,120 --> 02:38:13,480 Speaker 6: Patrick's Day. He'd been out with other members of the 2813 02:38:13,520 --> 02:38:16,760 Speaker 6: white supremacist group the Southern Son's Active Club, trying to 2814 02:38:16,840 --> 02:38:19,840 Speaker 6: hang a racist banner from a highway overpass in Savannah, Georgia, 2815 02:38:20,320 --> 02:38:23,760 Speaker 6: when he was unfortunately bitten by a dog. I do 2816 02:38:23,920 --> 02:38:26,160 Speaker 6: not have information on what came of the dog. I 2817 02:38:26,240 --> 02:38:30,280 Speaker 6: hope he's okay, concerned about infection though. Tyler Diykes went 2818 02:38:30,320 --> 02:38:32,360 Speaker 6: to the emergency room to have the wound looked at. 2819 02:38:33,040 --> 02:38:35,800 Speaker 6: In Georgia, as in most states, emergency rooms contact the 2820 02:38:35,840 --> 02:38:39,600 Speaker 6: police to report dog bite injuries. An officer was dispatched 2821 02:38:39,600 --> 02:38:41,640 Speaker 6: to the hospital to take a report from Dikes about 2822 02:38:41,640 --> 02:38:44,760 Speaker 6: the dog bite incident, which is a fairly routine situation. 2823 02:38:46,480 --> 02:38:50,160 Speaker 6: But somewhere during their interaction in the hospital, the officer 2824 02:38:50,280 --> 02:38:53,240 Speaker 6: ran Dyke's name to the system and it came back 2825 02:38:53,280 --> 02:38:56,879 Speaker 6: with a warrant. A panicked Dikes sent his hate group 2826 02:38:56,920 --> 02:39:02,640 Speaker 6: group chat a quick text arrested by Virginia nuke my account. 2827 02:39:03,879 --> 02:39:05,840 Speaker 6: In video of the melee the base of the statue 2828 02:39:05,920 --> 02:39:08,600 Speaker 6: on August eleven, twenty seventeen, Dykes can be seen throwing 2829 02:39:08,640 --> 02:39:13,400 Speaker 6: punches even after everyone else had stopped, and then celebrating 2830 02:39:13,440 --> 02:39:16,039 Speaker 6: the victory by marching around in a weird, tight little 2831 02:39:16,080 --> 02:39:18,840 Speaker 6: circle with his right arm extended in a Nazi salute. 2832 02:39:19,600 --> 02:39:21,800 Speaker 6: Diykes pled guilty to the torch charge in May and 2833 02:39:21,879 --> 02:39:24,240 Speaker 6: received the same six month act of sentence Williams had 2834 02:39:24,280 --> 02:39:27,560 Speaker 6: gotten with time served and good behavior. He was released 2835 02:39:27,600 --> 02:39:30,120 Speaker 6: in July. I wonder if he expected to see his 2836 02:39:30,200 --> 02:39:32,520 Speaker 6: elderly parents waiting for him in the parking lot outside 2837 02:39:32,560 --> 02:39:35,520 Speaker 6: the album ArHL Charltsville Regional Jail that day, but he 2838 02:39:35,640 --> 02:39:38,480 Speaker 6: never made it that far. U S Marshals took him 2839 02:39:38,480 --> 02:39:41,959 Speaker 6: into federal custody before he ever walked outside. He's currently 2840 02:39:42,040 --> 02:39:44,360 Speaker 6: out on bond awaiting trial on ten counts for his 2841 02:39:44,480 --> 02:39:48,840 Speaker 6: participation in the January sixth insurrection. Dallas Medina of Ohio 2842 02:39:49,000 --> 02:39:51,560 Speaker 6: turned himself in in April and was allowed to return 2843 02:39:51,640 --> 02:39:54,520 Speaker 6: home on bond. He had been an active member of 2844 02:39:54,520 --> 02:39:58,199 Speaker 6: an extremely online group of mass shooting enthusiasts calling themselves 2845 02:39:58,360 --> 02:40:01,760 Speaker 6: the Bowl Patrol, so named after the bull cut hairstyles 2846 02:40:01,760 --> 02:40:05,320 Speaker 6: sported by their idol Dylan Roof. After a feud with 2847 02:40:05,440 --> 02:40:08,720 Speaker 6: Chris the Crying Nazi Catwell ended with Catwell in federal prison. 2848 02:40:09,280 --> 02:40:11,520 Speaker 6: The group more or less fell apart in twenty twenty. 2849 02:40:12,400 --> 02:40:15,560 Speaker 6: Mendina hasn't appeared in court since his bond hearing in April, 2850 02:40:16,280 --> 02:40:19,400 Speaker 6: and he doesn't yet have a trial date. William Fiers 2851 02:40:19,480 --> 02:40:21,800 Speaker 6: was booked into the album L Charlesville Regional Jail in 2852 02:40:21,959 --> 02:40:24,480 Speaker 6: June after being transferred from the Texas prison where he 2853 02:40:24,600 --> 02:40:28,040 Speaker 6: was serving a sentence for domestic violence. Just two months 2854 02:40:28,080 --> 02:40:31,000 Speaker 6: after Unite the Right, William Fears beat and choked his girlfriend. 2855 02:40:32,959 --> 02:40:35,280 Speaker 6: A few days later, he traveled to Florida with his brother, 2856 02:40:35,400 --> 02:40:37,959 Speaker 6: Colton Fears and their friend Tyler Tenbrink to see Richard 2857 02:40:38,040 --> 02:40:41,080 Speaker 6: Spencer's speech at the University of Florida. He knew when 2858 02:40:41,080 --> 02:40:43,120 Speaker 6: he left town for Gainesville that week that his girlfriend 2859 02:40:43,160 --> 02:40:46,680 Speaker 6: had reported the assault. Having already been to prison for 2860 02:40:46,879 --> 02:40:50,960 Speaker 6: abducting and stabbing a different ex girlfriend years earlier, he 2861 02:40:51,040 --> 02:40:53,160 Speaker 6: knew another conviction would put him away for a while, 2862 02:40:53,800 --> 02:40:56,880 Speaker 6: and he wanted one last shot at starting the race 2863 02:40:56,959 --> 02:41:00,280 Speaker 6: war before they got him. In video from the Torch March, 2864 02:41:00,320 --> 02:41:02,440 Speaker 6: William Fears can be seen swinging his torch at a 2865 02:41:02,480 --> 02:41:08,160 Speaker 6: counter protester, screaming Die Commie. Fears remains in custody but 2866 02:41:08,280 --> 02:41:11,760 Speaker 6: does not yet have a trial date. William's brother, Colton Fears, 2867 02:41:11,920 --> 02:41:14,680 Speaker 6: joined him at the Albumarl Charlesville Regional Jail in September. 2868 02:41:15,480 --> 02:41:18,000 Speaker 6: I suspect the jail probably kept them separated, but it 2869 02:41:18,200 --> 02:41:20,080 Speaker 6: still would have been the closest the brothers had been 2870 02:41:20,120 --> 02:41:23,359 Speaker 6: in years. When the brothers were in Gainesville in October 2871 02:41:23,400 --> 02:41:26,160 Speaker 6: of twenty seventeen, their friend Tyler Tenbrink shot at a 2872 02:41:26,200 --> 02:41:30,720 Speaker 6: group of anti fascist counter protesters after Richard Spencer's speech. Thankfully, 2873 02:41:30,879 --> 02:41:33,800 Speaker 6: no one was injured, but Tenbrink was convicted of attempted 2874 02:41:33,840 --> 02:41:37,600 Speaker 6: first degree homicide. Colton Fears was driving the car when 2875 02:41:37,640 --> 02:41:39,480 Speaker 6: the men left the scene of the shooting and spent 2876 02:41:39,600 --> 02:41:42,000 Speaker 6: five years in a Florida prison for accessory after the 2877 02:41:42,040 --> 02:41:45,800 Speaker 6: fact to attempted first degree homicide. Colton was released in 2878 02:41:45,840 --> 02:41:48,680 Speaker 6: twenty twenty two and returned home to Texas, where he 2879 02:41:48,959 --> 02:41:51,200 Speaker 6: was then arrested in August twenty twenty three on the 2880 02:41:51,240 --> 02:41:55,000 Speaker 6: burning object charge. After pleading guilty in October, he was 2881 02:41:55,040 --> 02:41:59,360 Speaker 6: allowed to return home prior to sentencing Ryan Roy of 2882 02:41:59,440 --> 02:42:02,880 Speaker 6: Vermont and himself in in May. If you've been reading 2883 02:42:02,959 --> 02:42:06,240 Speaker 6: the voluminous leagues that seem to be constantly springing forth 2884 02:42:06,320 --> 02:42:09,440 Speaker 6: from Patriot Front's online comms, you may know him better 2885 02:42:09,520 --> 02:42:13,120 Speaker 6: as Rex. It looks like he's stayed quite busy in 2886 02:42:13,120 --> 02:42:14,880 Speaker 6: the years since Unite the Right as a member of 2887 02:42:14,920 --> 02:42:17,720 Speaker 6: Patriot Front. He is currently home on bond and does 2888 02:42:17,800 --> 02:42:21,040 Speaker 6: not yet have a trial date. Jamie Troutman of West 2889 02:42:21,080 --> 02:42:25,240 Speaker 6: Virginia turned himself in in October under the pseudonym Altright VA. 2890 02:42:25,560 --> 02:42:27,960 Speaker 6: Troutman was an active organizer and planner of the Unite 2891 02:42:28,000 --> 02:42:30,160 Speaker 6: the Right rally. He was present at many of the 2892 02:42:30,240 --> 02:42:32,720 Speaker 6: precursor events that took place here in Charlesville during the 2893 02:42:32,720 --> 02:42:36,440 Speaker 6: Summer of Hate, including the two other torch marches smaller 2894 02:42:36,520 --> 02:42:39,720 Speaker 6: torchlit rallies that were held in downtown Charlottesville in May 2895 02:42:39,840 --> 02:42:44,520 Speaker 6: and October of that year. Like Dyke's photos show, Troutman 2896 02:42:44,720 --> 02:42:47,040 Speaker 6: was present at the Capitol on January sixth, though in 2897 02:42:47,120 --> 02:42:50,800 Speaker 6: Troutman's case no charges have been filed. He too is 2898 02:42:50,879 --> 02:42:54,000 Speaker 6: home on bond with no trial date set. And before 2899 02:42:54,040 --> 02:42:56,320 Speaker 6: we get to the last two of those first ten cases, 2900 02:42:56,400 --> 02:42:59,039 Speaker 6: let's hear from someone who has also not been charged 2901 02:42:59,040 --> 02:43:01,520 Speaker 6: in connection with the mill reactionary attempt to overthrow the 2902 02:43:01,600 --> 02:43:16,920 Speaker 6: US government these products and services. The final two of 2903 02:43:17,000 --> 02:43:21,280 Speaker 6: these first ten torch cases are the messy ones. So 2904 02:43:21,320 --> 02:43:23,879 Speaker 6: we've got these four guilty please, and we've got four 2905 02:43:23,959 --> 02:43:26,680 Speaker 6: cases that are sort of moving along slowly down the 2906 02:43:26,800 --> 02:43:29,840 Speaker 6: usual path. And then we've got two cases where the 2907 02:43:29,879 --> 02:43:33,199 Speaker 6: defendants have had some success bogging the cases down with motions. 2908 02:43:34,520 --> 02:43:38,200 Speaker 6: Jacob Dix of Ohio was arrested in July. Dix is 2909 02:43:38,240 --> 02:43:40,320 Speaker 6: seen in photos and video on the eleventh and twelfth 2910 02:43:40,400 --> 02:43:43,440 Speaker 6: with two other Ohio men, his roommate Ryan Martin, who 2911 02:43:43,520 --> 02:43:46,400 Speaker 6: recently passed away, and Daniel Borden, one of the men 2912 02:43:46,760 --> 02:43:49,120 Speaker 6: convicted of beating a man nearly to death during the 2913 02:43:49,240 --> 02:43:52,360 Speaker 6: rally on August twelfth. I'm sure we'll learn more about 2914 02:43:52,400 --> 02:43:55,440 Speaker 6: Dix as his case progresses, but I have found him 2915 02:43:55,440 --> 02:43:57,800 Speaker 6: in photos with the Traditionalist Worker Party at the Nazi 2916 02:43:57,879 --> 02:44:01,879 Speaker 6: rally in Pikeville earlier that same summer. In his torch case, 2917 02:44:02,000 --> 02:44:04,520 Speaker 6: he has been granted both a substitute judge and a 2918 02:44:04,640 --> 02:44:08,600 Speaker 6: special prosecutor based on a sort of nebulous, though very 2919 02:44:08,720 --> 02:44:12,760 Speaker 6: loudly argued conspiracy theory involving the wife of a judge 2920 02:44:12,800 --> 02:44:15,200 Speaker 6: who is not even presiding over his case, and a 2921 02:44:15,320 --> 02:44:18,879 Speaker 6: prosecutor who has a history of expressing anti racist political 2922 02:44:19,000 --> 02:44:22,600 Speaker 6: views in his personal life. Dix is out on bond. 2923 02:44:23,080 --> 02:44:25,439 Speaker 6: With the recent rule in granting him a special prosecutor, 2924 02:44:26,200 --> 02:44:28,080 Speaker 6: we may be seeing a trial date get set in 2925 02:44:28,160 --> 02:44:34,400 Speaker 6: the near future. And finally, Augustus Sole Invictus. Until Rousseau 2926 02:44:34,520 --> 02:44:36,760 Speaker 6: was arrested last week, the biggest name in this batch 2927 02:44:36,840 --> 02:44:40,960 Speaker 6: was Augustus Invictus. Even before his name was on the 2928 02:44:41,040 --> 02:44:43,680 Speaker 6: fliers as a headline speaker at Unite the Right, Invictus 2929 02:44:43,760 --> 02:44:46,720 Speaker 6: was no stranger to the headlines. In twenty sixteen, he 2930 02:44:46,840 --> 02:44:50,040 Speaker 6: ran for US Senate in Florida as a libertarian. His 2931 02:44:50,160 --> 02:44:53,600 Speaker 6: campaign was marred by such controversies as his own past 2932 02:44:53,640 --> 02:44:58,000 Speaker 6: statements on eugenics, A twenty thirteen ritual sacrifice of a goat, 2933 02:44:58,520 --> 02:45:02,360 Speaker 6: his legal representation of w supremacist militia leader Marcus Faiella, 2934 02:45:03,040 --> 02:45:06,960 Speaker 6: and numerous police reports from both his wife and his 2935 02:45:07,320 --> 02:45:12,880 Speaker 6: teenage girlfriend alleging domestic violence. In the years since, Invictis 2936 02:45:12,959 --> 02:45:15,879 Speaker 6: never did become a US senator despite a second attempt, 2937 02:45:16,480 --> 02:45:20,000 Speaker 6: and never did get convicted of domestic violence despite many, 2938 02:45:20,879 --> 02:45:25,600 Speaker 6: many more police reports. He's also no longer a pagan. 2939 02:45:26,360 --> 02:45:29,160 Speaker 6: Asked recently about the goat blood drinking ritual he performed 2940 02:45:29,200 --> 02:45:33,000 Speaker 6: in twenty thirteen, he quipped that he drinks human blood now, 2941 02:45:33,480 --> 02:45:37,000 Speaker 6: just a little transubstantiation joke about his recent conversion to 2942 02:45:37,160 --> 02:45:41,440 Speaker 6: traditional Catholicism. Invictus was arrested on the burning object charge 2943 02:45:41,440 --> 02:45:43,880 Speaker 6: in Florida in June twenty twenty three and held for 2944 02:45:43,959 --> 02:45:46,960 Speaker 6: a month before being extradited to Virginia and released on bond. 2945 02:45:48,400 --> 02:45:51,760 Speaker 6: Like Dix, he has been granted a substitute judge. He too, 2946 02:45:51,879 --> 02:45:54,200 Speaker 6: was seeking a special prosecutor, but no ruling was made 2947 02:45:54,240 --> 02:45:57,760 Speaker 6: at his last hearing. Currently, his case is docketed for 2948 02:45:57,840 --> 02:46:01,480 Speaker 6: trial next month, but I'm willing to bet that gets postponed. 2949 02:46:02,600 --> 02:46:05,520 Speaker 6: So that's more or less where we are now. Rousseau 2950 02:46:05,640 --> 02:46:07,680 Speaker 6: is the eleventh man to be charged in these cases. 2951 02:46:08,280 --> 02:46:11,000 Speaker 6: We've got four guilty please on the record, leaving him 2952 02:46:11,040 --> 02:46:14,360 Speaker 6: as one of seven open cases. We can expect to 2953 02:46:14,360 --> 02:46:17,480 Speaker 6: see Rousseau extradited from Texas to Virginia in the near future. 2954 02:46:17,600 --> 02:46:19,760 Speaker 6: I would say maybe a week or two, although some 2955 02:46:19,879 --> 02:46:21,400 Speaker 6: of them have been held for up to a month 2956 02:46:21,760 --> 02:46:24,640 Speaker 6: before a deputy can get down there and bring them back. 2957 02:46:25,080 --> 02:46:27,000 Speaker 6: Something I was really surprised to learn in all of 2958 02:46:27,040 --> 02:46:31,480 Speaker 6: this is in most extraditions for state cases like this, 2959 02:46:31,600 --> 02:46:34,200 Speaker 6: like these are not federal cases. These are local cases. 2960 02:46:35,680 --> 02:46:39,680 Speaker 6: When someone gets extradited long distance, a deputy just flies 2961 02:46:39,800 --> 02:46:43,280 Speaker 6: down there and then they fly back together on a 2962 02:46:43,360 --> 02:46:47,360 Speaker 6: commercial airline. It's not like a con air situation. They're 2963 02:46:47,520 --> 02:46:50,600 Speaker 6: just on an airplane together. So it really depends on 2964 02:46:50,680 --> 02:46:52,400 Speaker 6: when a deputy can sort of get down there and 2965 02:46:52,440 --> 02:46:54,400 Speaker 6: get them. So he'll be extradited sometime in the next 2966 02:46:54,440 --> 02:46:56,800 Speaker 6: few weeks, and then once he's booked into the album 2967 02:46:56,840 --> 02:46:59,240 Speaker 6: RL Charltsville Regional Jail, he'll get an appearance in court. 2968 02:47:00,000 --> 02:47:02,680 Speaker 6: It's anybody's guest right now who he'll hire to represent him. 2969 02:47:03,200 --> 02:47:06,040 Speaker 6: Former Proud Boy and current Patriot Front lawyer Jason Lee 2970 02:47:06,080 --> 02:47:08,240 Speaker 6: van Dyke was thoughtful enough to reply to one of 2971 02:47:08,320 --> 02:47:10,959 Speaker 6: my tweets about Rousseau's arrest to say that he will 2972 02:47:11,120 --> 02:47:14,440 Speaker 6: not be taking this case, as much as he would 2973 02:47:14,440 --> 02:47:16,800 Speaker 6: have loved to try this case, which he said that 2974 02:47:16,800 --> 02:47:18,120 Speaker 6: he would do a very good job doing and he 2975 02:47:18,160 --> 02:47:22,200 Speaker 6: could definitely do it, and unfortunately he just can't. He 2976 02:47:22,320 --> 02:47:25,600 Speaker 6: cited the difficulty in finding local council to assist. He's 2977 02:47:25,680 --> 02:47:27,600 Speaker 6: not admitted to the bar in Virginia, so who would 2978 02:47:27,600 --> 02:47:29,600 Speaker 6: need someone who is to sort of sponsor him in 2979 02:47:30,200 --> 02:47:32,440 Speaker 6: and be responsible for him in the case. So he said, 2980 02:47:32,480 --> 02:47:34,720 Speaker 6: you know, he can't find local council, and also it 2981 02:47:34,720 --> 02:47:37,440 Speaker 6: would just be two time consuming and too expensive to 2982 02:47:37,520 --> 02:47:40,880 Speaker 6: try a case in Virginia as he's located in Texas, 2983 02:47:41,760 --> 02:47:44,600 Speaker 6: so it won't be Jason Lee van Dyke, I've been 2984 02:47:44,640 --> 02:47:47,680 Speaker 6: writing about these cases in my newsletter, The Devil's Advocates. 2985 02:47:48,000 --> 02:47:51,519 Speaker 6: It's on Ghost, which is like substack, but it's not substack, 2986 02:47:51,920 --> 02:47:54,840 Speaker 6: it's Ghost, and I'm looking forward to writing some updates 2987 02:47:55,280 --> 02:47:58,560 Speaker 6: very soon. The finding out for this particular fucking around 2988 02:47:58,640 --> 02:48:01,760 Speaker 6: has been a long time coming, and I can't help 2989 02:48:01,800 --> 02:48:05,600 Speaker 6: but wonder if these cases had been brought sooner, Patriot 2990 02:48:05,640 --> 02:48:09,640 Speaker 6: Front might not even exist. You know, I suspect once 2991 02:48:09,720 --> 02:48:11,840 Speaker 6: Rousseau has gotten a lawyer, he will ask for a 2992 02:48:11,879 --> 02:48:16,280 Speaker 6: bond hearing. That's probably what's next. It's impossible to know 2993 02:48:16,440 --> 02:48:19,680 Speaker 6: how much information other law enforcement agencies are interested in 2994 02:48:19,760 --> 02:48:23,359 Speaker 6: sharing with the local prosecutor, but that kind of information 2995 02:48:23,480 --> 02:48:25,560 Speaker 6: sharing did play a critical role in some of the 2996 02:48:25,680 --> 02:48:29,960 Speaker 6: other cases. In bond hearings for Billy Williams and Tyler Dikes, 2997 02:48:30,120 --> 02:48:34,000 Speaker 6: information about the defendant's associations and activities collected by other 2998 02:48:34,120 --> 02:48:38,280 Speaker 6: local police agencies and federal authorities was what kept them 2999 02:48:38,320 --> 02:48:43,240 Speaker 6: in custody. In Dikes's case, several police and sheriff's departments 3000 02:48:43,280 --> 02:48:46,800 Speaker 6: in South Carolina and Georgia shared information that he was 3001 02:48:46,840 --> 02:48:51,199 Speaker 6: a suspect in some like swastika vandalism cases, some flying cases. 3002 02:48:52,000 --> 02:48:54,880 Speaker 6: It's not clear if the FEDS shared information ahead of 3003 02:48:54,959 --> 02:48:58,080 Speaker 6: time about the January sixth case, but it is clear 3004 02:48:58,160 --> 02:49:01,040 Speaker 6: that the prosecutor's office was talking to other law enforcement 3005 02:49:01,080 --> 02:49:03,720 Speaker 6: agencies who'd been keeping tabs on these guys. And I 3006 02:49:03,800 --> 02:49:05,920 Speaker 6: think you would be a fool to think the FEDS 3007 02:49:05,959 --> 02:49:09,120 Speaker 6: don't have some information about Rousseau that might raise a 3008 02:49:09,200 --> 02:49:12,840 Speaker 6: Judge's eyebrow. I guess we'll just have to wait and see. 3009 02:49:27,240 --> 02:49:29,680 Speaker 5: Hello, good morning, good afternoon, good evening, and good night. 3010 02:49:30,400 --> 02:49:33,560 Speaker 5: I'm Andrew Sage and I run the eature channel Andrewism. 3011 02:49:33,879 --> 02:49:36,720 Speaker 5: But this is not Andrewism. This is it could happen 3012 02:49:36,760 --> 02:49:42,600 Speaker 5: here today. I'm with Garrison yet again, and we are 3013 02:49:42,680 --> 02:49:49,840 Speaker 5: tackling really the genesis of this podcast, everyone's favorite subject, collapse. 3014 02:49:51,200 --> 02:49:54,039 Speaker 3: Oh wow, yeah, you know, just. 3015 02:49:54,640 --> 02:50:00,400 Speaker 5: A light topic for your morning or eating commute. I mean, 3016 02:50:00,440 --> 02:50:03,320 Speaker 5: if it's twenty twenty four and you don't know what 3017 02:50:03,520 --> 02:50:06,240 Speaker 5: collapse is, allow me to illuminate. 3018 02:50:07,120 --> 02:50:09,400 Speaker 4: Also, why are you listening to this podcast? It is 3019 02:50:09,800 --> 02:50:11,440 Speaker 4: ostensibly about collapse. 3020 02:50:12,760 --> 02:50:17,440 Speaker 5: Indeed, in essence, collapse is the significant loss of an 3021 02:50:17,560 --> 02:50:20,800 Speaker 5: established level of complexity towards a much simpler state. It 3022 02:50:20,840 --> 02:50:24,240 Speaker 5: can occur differently within many areas, orderly or chaotically, and 3023 02:50:24,320 --> 02:50:27,520 Speaker 5: be willing or unwilling. It does not necessarily imply human 3024 02:50:27,560 --> 02:50:31,680 Speaker 5: extinction or a singular global event. Although the longer the 3025 02:50:31,800 --> 02:50:35,480 Speaker 5: duration the mod resembles a decline instead of a collapse. 3026 02:50:36,560 --> 02:50:39,360 Speaker 5: So collapse is really a lot of things happen all 3027 02:50:39,400 --> 02:50:41,440 Speaker 5: of once. People typically decide, you know you're talking about 3028 02:50:41,440 --> 02:50:46,000 Speaker 5: the climate, talking about resources and the decline of resources, 3029 02:50:46,120 --> 02:50:51,960 Speaker 5: talking about last extinction, talking about societal unrest and break 3030 02:50:52,040 --> 02:50:57,600 Speaker 5: down and the inequality, and truly pick your poison, brother, 3031 02:50:57,640 --> 02:51:00,640 Speaker 5: We're talking about you know, the f and increasing global 3032 02:51:00,720 --> 02:51:04,960 Speaker 5: energy demands to graddingly slow transition to renewables, the destabilization 3033 02:51:05,160 --> 02:51:08,760 Speaker 5: of our food and water systems. There's no one cause, 3034 02:51:08,920 --> 02:51:15,439 Speaker 5: but several compounding pressures, as Pablo Serophene and Raphael Stevens 3035 02:51:15,520 --> 02:51:19,680 Speaker 5: aptly summarize. To maintain itself and avoid financial disorder and 3036 02:51:19,800 --> 02:51:23,960 Speaker 5: social unrest, our industrial capital civilization is forced to accelerate, 3037 02:51:24,320 --> 02:51:27,199 Speaker 5: to become more complex and to consume ever more energy 3038 02:51:27,959 --> 02:51:31,840 Speaker 5: its Doasleine expansion has been nurtured by the exceptional availability 3039 02:51:32,640 --> 02:51:35,400 Speaker 5: though this will not last long of fossil fuels that 3040 02:51:35,480 --> 02:51:39,040 Speaker 5: are very energy efficient, coupled with her growth economy and 3041 02:51:39,200 --> 02:51:42,360 Speaker 5: highly unstable levels of debt. But the growth of our 3042 02:51:42,480 --> 02:51:46,959 Speaker 5: industrial civilization today, constrained by geophysical economic limits, has reached 3043 02:51:47,000 --> 02:51:50,680 Speaker 5: a phase of decreasing returns. Technology, which has long sail 3044 02:51:50,760 --> 02:51:53,080 Speaker 5: to push these limits back, is less and less able 3045 02:51:53,160 --> 02:51:57,360 Speaker 5: to ensure this acceleration, and locks in this unsustainable trajectory 3046 02:51:57,680 --> 02:52:01,480 Speaker 5: by preventing the development of new alternatives sounds familiar. 3047 02:52:02,400 --> 02:52:02,560 Speaker 3: Well. 3048 02:52:02,560 --> 02:52:05,840 Speaker 5: At the same time, the sciences of complexity are discovering 3049 02:52:05,959 --> 02:52:10,640 Speaker 5: that beyond certain thresholds, complex systems, including economies and ecosystems, 3050 02:52:11,000 --> 02:52:14,280 Speaker 5: suddenly switched to new and unpredictable states of equilibrium and 3051 02:52:14,360 --> 02:52:17,320 Speaker 5: may even collapse. We are more and more aware that 3052 02:52:17,440 --> 02:52:20,840 Speaker 5: we have crossed certain boundaries that guarantee the stability of 3053 02:52:20,879 --> 02:52:24,320 Speaker 5: our living conditions as a society and as a species. 3054 02:52:24,959 --> 02:52:27,920 Speaker 5: The global climate system and many of the planet's ecosystems 3055 02:52:27,959 --> 02:52:31,320 Speaker 5: and major biochemical cycles have left the zone of stability 3056 02:52:31,360 --> 02:52:34,199 Speaker 5: that we were familiar with herald in a time of sudden, 3057 02:52:34,520 --> 02:52:39,320 Speaker 5: large scale disruptions which internally stabilized industrial societies, the rest 3058 02:52:39,360 --> 02:52:42,000 Speaker 5: of humankind and even other species. 3059 02:52:43,240 --> 02:52:45,920 Speaker 3: Yes, I agree. 3060 02:52:47,959 --> 02:52:50,760 Speaker 5: In terms of the hows of collapse, you know, it 3061 02:52:50,879 --> 02:52:52,840 Speaker 5: might be slow, or it might be quick, It might 3062 02:52:52,879 --> 02:52:55,520 Speaker 5: be happening now already, or maybe just really kicking off 3063 02:52:55,760 --> 02:52:59,240 Speaker 5: seriously in their future today, we'll really be talking about 3064 02:52:59,360 --> 02:53:03,760 Speaker 5: the sort of different ways of conceptualizing collapse, different frame 3065 02:53:03,840 --> 02:53:09,240 Speaker 5: devices we can use, and addressing the variety of responses 3066 02:53:09,360 --> 02:53:13,120 Speaker 5: that people have to collapse. In a future episode, I 3067 02:53:13,240 --> 02:53:17,680 Speaker 5: want to take a look at I suppose a more. 3068 02:53:19,480 --> 02:53:23,280 Speaker 5: This could be like the pessimistic episode in a sense, 3069 02:53:23,959 --> 02:53:26,520 Speaker 5: and the next one will be a bit more you know, 3070 02:53:26,720 --> 02:53:29,320 Speaker 5: how not to spiral into despair? 3071 02:53:29,560 --> 02:53:33,480 Speaker 4: So yeah, how to have a good understanding of the 3072 02:53:33,560 --> 02:53:36,960 Speaker 4: reality of our crumbling systems, but not just be a 3073 02:53:37,040 --> 02:53:39,480 Speaker 4: doomer who stays inside and scrolls all the time. 3074 02:53:39,520 --> 02:53:40,480 Speaker 3: It is just depressed. 3075 02:53:41,000 --> 02:53:44,200 Speaker 5: Well, but thankfully you have more options than just being 3076 02:53:44,240 --> 02:53:45,720 Speaker 5: a duma. And we're going to get into all of 3077 02:53:45,760 --> 02:53:49,279 Speaker 5: those responses very soon. There are quite a few interesting. 3078 02:53:48,959 --> 02:53:50,000 Speaker 3: Ones, alrighty. 3079 02:53:50,640 --> 02:53:52,480 Speaker 5: First of all, we need to talk about some different 3080 02:53:52,480 --> 02:53:57,480 Speaker 5: ways of conceptualizing collapse. For example, we have Dmitry Orlovs 3081 02:53:57,560 --> 02:54:01,320 Speaker 5: five stages, just like a rule coaster of chaos, which 3082 02:54:01,360 --> 02:54:05,040 Speaker 5: each stage more intense than the last. First, we have 3083 02:54:05,440 --> 02:54:11,000 Speaker 5: stage one financial collapse. Everyone losing faith in business as usual, 3084 02:54:11,560 --> 02:54:15,800 Speaker 5: financial institutions going belly up, savings vanish, financial freefall, say 3085 02:54:15,840 --> 02:54:20,520 Speaker 5: goodbye to your savings, account, loans, pensions. Basically what went 3086 02:54:20,560 --> 02:54:25,560 Speaker 5: down in Argentina back in two thousand and one. Sounds familiar, Yes, yes, yes, 3087 02:54:26,760 --> 02:54:31,360 Speaker 5: Next we have commercial collapse. Now it's not just about money, 3088 02:54:31,520 --> 02:54:35,720 Speaker 5: it's about losing faith in the market. Shall provide commodities 3089 02:54:35,800 --> 02:54:38,720 Speaker 5: end up being hoarded, shopping centers are closing for business, 3090 02:54:39,160 --> 02:54:43,400 Speaker 5: and we might even bring back barter, and then boom, 3091 02:54:43,440 --> 02:54:48,720 Speaker 5: we have the next stage, political collapse. Trust in the 3092 02:54:48,800 --> 02:54:52,080 Speaker 5: government will take care of you crumbles. Governments try to 3093 02:54:52,160 --> 02:54:55,680 Speaker 5: maintain oiler with curfews and martial law, but local corruption 3094 02:54:55,879 --> 02:55:00,720 Speaker 5: takes over services, the roads un maintained, the rubbish piling up. 3095 02:55:01,400 --> 02:55:05,600 Speaker 5: All of actually makes a really bold claim here, and 3096 02:55:05,680 --> 02:55:09,960 Speaker 5: that is that the US might be on this on 3097 02:55:10,080 --> 02:55:13,800 Speaker 5: the track of these like stages. Like I know, I know, 3098 02:55:13,879 --> 02:55:16,120 Speaker 5: that sounds like a really like a radical claim to 3099 02:55:16,240 --> 02:55:17,480 Speaker 5: make I. 3100 02:55:17,720 --> 02:55:22,160 Speaker 4: Feel like everyone listening to this has a decent understanding that, like, 3101 02:55:22,920 --> 02:55:25,920 Speaker 4: these things aren't just switches that are either on or off. 3102 02:55:26,040 --> 02:55:29,720 Speaker 4: This is like a sliding scale, and the US is 3103 02:55:29,800 --> 02:55:34,600 Speaker 4: a decent ways on this scale already. I mean, that's 3104 02:55:34,680 --> 02:55:38,000 Speaker 4: what That's what the first five episodes of the second 3105 02:55:38,040 --> 02:55:40,840 Speaker 4: season of this show was really all about, specifically in 3106 02:55:40,920 --> 02:55:43,720 Speaker 4: terms of the climate and how it's not like everything 3107 02:55:43,800 --> 02:55:47,320 Speaker 4: all falls apart at once. It's that these systems that 3108 02:55:47,360 --> 02:55:50,400 Speaker 4: we've grown to rely on will slowly crumble away until 3109 02:55:50,400 --> 02:55:54,879 Speaker 4: they've become basically nothing, or they just become like corporate puppets, 3110 02:55:55,000 --> 02:55:56,800 Speaker 4: or they've just become like like they're not they're not 3111 02:55:56,879 --> 02:55:59,840 Speaker 4: actually real anymore in any kind of impactful way. And 3112 02:56:00,000 --> 02:56:01,879 Speaker 4: I mean we saw a little bit of this during COVID, 3113 02:56:01,959 --> 02:56:06,280 Speaker 4: how many systems that we relied on just weren't really 3114 02:56:06,360 --> 02:56:11,520 Speaker 4: around anymore or were not actually reliable. And you see 3115 02:56:11,560 --> 02:56:14,280 Speaker 4: this whenever, like whenever there's a massive amount of wildfires 3116 02:56:14,320 --> 02:56:17,120 Speaker 4: that takes over a whole region and it displaces hundreds 3117 02:56:17,120 --> 02:56:20,360 Speaker 4: of thousands of people. Usually the response to that is 3118 02:56:20,480 --> 02:56:23,520 Speaker 4: not the government's going to come in and save everybody. 3119 02:56:23,800 --> 02:56:26,080 Speaker 4: It's a whole bunch of really poor anarchists set up 3120 02:56:26,320 --> 02:56:29,200 Speaker 4: a series of tents to give people food and to 3121 02:56:29,400 --> 02:56:32,400 Speaker 4: get people organized, to find places to sleep, and like 3122 02:56:32,520 --> 02:56:36,760 Speaker 4: that's the actual response to these crumbling institutions. It's not 3123 02:56:36,959 --> 02:56:40,200 Speaker 4: just like you know, fallout New Vegas. We're living in 3124 02:56:40,240 --> 02:56:44,039 Speaker 4: the apocalypse immediately. It's a lot more fuzzy. 3125 02:56:46,320 --> 02:56:50,680 Speaker 5: Yeah. Yeah, in in a sense, I kind of get 3126 02:56:50,920 --> 02:56:53,880 Speaker 5: people who wish it was a bit more straightforward and 3127 02:56:54,080 --> 02:56:57,480 Speaker 5: so sure, you know, because if it's like if it 3128 02:56:57,600 --> 02:56:59,640 Speaker 5: was like a major event, right like if it was 3129 02:56:59,760 --> 02:57:03,280 Speaker 5: an innovasion that just happened, I think it's a lot 3130 02:57:03,400 --> 02:57:06,279 Speaker 5: easier for people to conceptionize something like that and respond 3131 02:57:06,400 --> 02:57:10,400 Speaker 5: to it. And I just mobilize all your efforts and 3132 02:57:11,200 --> 02:57:13,879 Speaker 5: all your focus is on solved in this issue, because 3133 02:57:13,920 --> 02:57:16,520 Speaker 5: it's right in front of your face when you're talking 3134 02:57:16,520 --> 02:57:21,320 Speaker 5: about like geological time scales and multiple decades of you know, 3135 02:57:21,640 --> 02:57:27,320 Speaker 5: slowly breakdown, and you know, I have all these election cycles, 3136 02:57:27,600 --> 02:57:31,640 Speaker 5: and you have all these tipping points to scientists are 3137 02:57:31,680 --> 02:57:35,880 Speaker 5: telling you about, and then you know, someday eventually it's 3138 02:57:36,000 --> 02:57:40,160 Speaker 5: raining during the dry season and dry during the rainy season, 3139 02:57:40,360 --> 02:57:44,240 Speaker 5: and there's no snow in January. 3140 02:57:44,080 --> 02:57:44,160 Speaker 3: And. 3141 02:57:45,959 --> 02:57:51,960 Speaker 5: All that jazz onward the social collapse. This is where, 3142 02:57:52,040 --> 02:57:55,000 Speaker 5: according to all of faith in your people will take 3143 02:57:55,040 --> 02:57:59,800 Speaker 5: care of you, disintegrate, civil wars brew, thepopulation becomes a thing, 3144 02:58:00,120 --> 02:58:05,760 Speaker 5: clans take over like a post apocalyptic drama unfolding. And 3145 02:58:06,800 --> 02:58:10,160 Speaker 5: then the grand finale is cultural collapse, which is a 3146 02:58:10,280 --> 02:58:13,360 Speaker 5: loss of faith in the goodness of humanity. And as 3147 02:58:13,400 --> 02:58:17,039 Speaker 5: a result of that loss of faith, kindness, generosity, empathy 3148 02:58:17,120 --> 02:58:21,080 Speaker 5: all falls out the window. I completely disagree, I think 3149 02:58:21,200 --> 02:58:25,640 Speaker 5: with all ours solution here. I think that these types 3150 02:58:25,680 --> 02:58:28,879 Speaker 5: of crisis kind often bring out the best in people. 3151 02:58:28,959 --> 02:58:30,800 Speaker 5: Of course, we also do see the worst in people, 3152 02:58:30,920 --> 02:58:32,840 Speaker 5: but I don't think it'll ever reach a point where 3153 02:58:32,920 --> 02:58:40,080 Speaker 5: the bad of people's behavior so vastly outweighs the good 3154 02:58:41,120 --> 02:58:43,440 Speaker 5: to the point where people just completely lose faith in 3155 02:58:43,480 --> 02:58:45,640 Speaker 5: our capacity for mutual aid and that kind of thing. 3156 02:58:47,280 --> 02:58:49,959 Speaker 5: There is, of course, a bonus stage that all are throsen, 3157 02:58:50,040 --> 02:58:56,920 Speaker 5: which is ecological collapse, where reboot in society in an 3158 02:58:57,040 --> 02:59:00,120 Speaker 5: exhausted environment. It's like good luck with that. You know, 3159 02:59:00,240 --> 02:59:03,440 Speaker 5: it's very difficult to do. It becomes a sort of 3160 02:59:03,840 --> 02:59:07,600 Speaker 5: a well that we end up trapped in. So that's 3161 02:59:07,840 --> 02:59:10,320 Speaker 5: one way of understanding collapse. And there's also C. S. 3162 02:59:10,400 --> 02:59:15,120 Speaker 5: Halling's four phase model of ecological change, and according to him, 3163 02:59:15,160 --> 02:59:18,760 Speaker 5: all systems go through cycles of four phases. A phase 3164 02:59:18,800 --> 02:59:21,960 Speaker 5: of growth where the system accumulates matter and energy, a 3165 02:59:22,000 --> 02:59:25,199 Speaker 5: phase of conservation where the system becomes more and more interconnected, 3166 02:59:25,600 --> 02:59:29,200 Speaker 5: rigid and therefore vulnerable. A phase of collapse or loosening, 3167 02:59:29,600 --> 02:59:32,280 Speaker 5: and then a phase of rapid reorganization lead into another 3168 02:59:32,360 --> 02:59:36,680 Speaker 5: phase of growth in often very different conditions. This is 3169 02:59:36,760 --> 02:59:42,480 Speaker 5: more of a I suppose optimistic I mean I read 3170 02:59:42,520 --> 02:59:46,440 Speaker 5: it as kind of optimistic because it recognizes that, you know, 3171 02:59:46,520 --> 02:59:48,959 Speaker 5: some like things break down, and that's it. Like even 3172 02:59:49,080 --> 02:59:53,120 Speaker 5: in death, there's like a life, and there's like a rebooth, 3173 02:59:53,240 --> 02:59:56,039 Speaker 5: and then there's of course the conditions that rebooth will 3174 02:59:56,080 --> 02:59:59,560 Speaker 5: be different, but it's not like things completely come to 3175 02:59:59,600 --> 03:00:06,800 Speaker 5: an end. It suggest that the conditions that growth and 3176 03:00:07,879 --> 03:00:12,720 Speaker 5: healing might be kick started with would be very different 3177 03:00:12,800 --> 03:00:15,760 Speaker 5: from the ones that with the conditions that were there originally. 3178 03:00:16,480 --> 03:00:20,400 Speaker 5: Another author's views on the subject, a guy named John 3179 03:00:20,480 --> 03:00:25,040 Speaker 5: Michael Greer, once said that quote. The difference between my 3180 03:00:25,280 --> 03:00:27,680 Speaker 5: view and that of many others in the collapse field, 3181 03:00:27,959 --> 03:00:29,640 Speaker 5: it's a lot of them assume that the first wave 3182 03:00:29,720 --> 03:00:32,520 Speaker 5: of crisis will be followed by total collapse, and I 3183 03:00:32,760 --> 03:00:35,960 Speaker 5: argue that it'll be followed by muddying through and partial recovery, 3184 03:00:36,520 --> 03:00:39,600 Speaker 5: then by renewed crisis and so on. Thus, I don't 3185 03:00:39,600 --> 03:00:41,640 Speaker 5: think it's actually that useful to have a single metric 3186 03:00:41,720 --> 03:00:44,800 Speaker 5: for what counters collapse, because collapse is a process, not 3187 03:00:44,920 --> 03:00:47,720 Speaker 5: an event. The collapse of industrial civilization has been underway 3188 03:00:47,720 --> 03:00:49,960 Speaker 5: for quite some time now and will still be a 3189 03:00:50,120 --> 03:00:52,920 Speaker 5: going concern for longer than any of us will be alive. 3190 03:00:54,320 --> 03:00:57,800 Speaker 5: And then there's David Krowitz's sort of choose your own 3191 03:00:57,800 --> 03:01:01,720 Speaker 5: adventure style collapse where we have sort of three options 3192 03:01:01,800 --> 03:01:06,119 Speaker 5: that we could go down. There's one of linear decline, 3193 03:01:06,200 --> 03:01:09,520 Speaker 5: there's one of oscillating decline, and there's one of systemic collapse. 3194 03:01:11,760 --> 03:01:14,840 Speaker 5: For the step, we have linear decline, which is optimistic 3195 03:01:15,080 --> 03:01:18,600 Speaker 5: in a sense. It's assuming everything will respond proportionally to 3196 03:01:18,680 --> 03:01:21,920 Speaker 5: its causes. So, for instance, if oil consumption goes down, 3197 03:01:22,280 --> 03:01:27,360 Speaker 5: GDP follows suit. It's a very gradual and controlled decline, 3198 03:01:27,360 --> 03:01:30,640 Speaker 5: which gives us time to transition to renewable energy and 3199 03:01:30,720 --> 03:01:34,240 Speaker 5: to change our ways. It's kind of a dream scenario 3200 03:01:34,600 --> 03:01:37,920 Speaker 5: for some deep growth enthusiasts, So some of those who 3201 03:01:38,520 --> 03:01:41,120 Speaker 5: champion a transition to a greener future, we kind of 3202 03:01:41,240 --> 03:01:44,280 Speaker 5: want it to be a slow collapse, not a rapid collapse, 3203 03:01:44,320 --> 03:01:47,760 Speaker 5: because it gives us time to respond and adjust accordingly. 3204 03:01:48,240 --> 03:01:52,080 Speaker 5: Of course, the other side of that, the catch is 3205 03:01:52,120 --> 03:01:56,560 Speaker 5: that when it is that slow, it also sort of 3206 03:01:57,320 --> 03:02:02,400 Speaker 5: gives an excuse for inaction, excuse for delay and putting 3207 03:02:02,480 --> 03:02:06,680 Speaker 5: off and procrastinating on the changes that are necessary. A 3208 03:02:06,879 --> 03:02:13,840 Speaker 5: more realistic scenario, according to Korwss, oscillating decline, where you 3209 03:02:13,959 --> 03:02:17,280 Speaker 5: have economic activity bounce in between peaks of recovery and 3210 03:02:17,400 --> 03:02:23,560 Speaker 5: recession but with an overall downward trend. It's almost like 3211 03:02:23,680 --> 03:02:26,959 Speaker 5: an oil priced roller coaster where the higher prices lead 3212 03:02:27,000 --> 03:02:30,000 Speaker 5: to recession, then a dipping prices sparks bit of growth. 3213 03:02:30,360 --> 03:02:33,120 Speaker 5: Both each cycle the system loses a bit more of 3214 03:02:33,200 --> 03:02:37,360 Speaker 5: its mojo for lack of a better word. The debts 3215 03:02:37,480 --> 03:02:41,680 Speaker 5: the pile up, the investment possibilities dwindle, and it's kind 3216 03:02:41,680 --> 03:02:44,920 Speaker 5: of like the catabolic collapse idea that John Michael Career 3217 03:02:45,000 --> 03:02:47,800 Speaker 5: came up with. It's not too fast and so innocence, 3218 03:02:47,840 --> 03:02:52,480 Speaker 5: it still gives society some room to adapt. And the 3219 03:02:52,760 --> 03:02:56,920 Speaker 5: last model that Coreres has is the systemic collapse model, 3220 03:02:57,480 --> 03:03:00,920 Speaker 5: which sees our civilization has a super complex system with 3221 03:03:01,120 --> 03:03:04,480 Speaker 5: all these intertwined feedback loops, and so by crossing these 3222 03:03:04,600 --> 03:03:08,200 Speaker 5: invisible change over points and dealing with small disruptions can 3223 03:03:08,320 --> 03:03:11,600 Speaker 5: end up leading to unpredictable changes. It's like a roller 3224 03:03:11,680 --> 03:03:16,279 Speaker 5: coaster without a clear track, nonlinear, cumulative, and potentially brutal. 3225 03:03:16,920 --> 03:03:20,440 Speaker 5: You know, it's like no kind of safety approval was 3226 03:03:20,920 --> 03:03:25,120 Speaker 5: passed on this roller coaster whatsoever, a death trap and 3227 03:03:25,400 --> 03:03:30,320 Speaker 5: there's no telling where the cart will wear. Of course, 3228 03:03:31,480 --> 03:03:35,040 Speaker 5: really the how of collapse depends on who you ask 3229 03:03:35,520 --> 03:03:37,440 Speaker 5: but with all these models, they do seem to be 3230 03:03:37,480 --> 03:03:41,160 Speaker 5: a couple of clear points, best articulated again by Savine 3231 03:03:41,160 --> 03:03:45,240 Speaker 5: and Stevens. One, the physical growth of our societies will 3232 03:03:45,240 --> 03:03:48,000 Speaker 5: come to a halt in the near future. Two we 3233 03:03:48,120 --> 03:03:51,640 Speaker 5: have irreversibly damaged the entire system, at least on the 3234 03:03:51,800 --> 03:03:55,840 Speaker 5: geological scale of human beings. Three we are moving towards 3235 03:03:55,879 --> 03:03:59,880 Speaker 5: a very unstable, nonlinear future with major disruptions will be 3236 03:03:59,879 --> 03:04:03,840 Speaker 5: the norm. And four we're now potentially subject to global 3237 03:04:04,040 --> 03:04:10,360 Speaker 5: systemic collapses. Prospects look bleak to me. They look extra 3238 03:04:10,480 --> 03:04:13,040 Speaker 5: bleak when you consider that some people are still stuck 3239 03:04:13,120 --> 03:04:17,040 Speaker 5: on the is climate change real? Ha ha ha global 3240 03:04:17,120 --> 03:04:21,000 Speaker 5: warming and yet it's cold ha ha ha level of discourse. 3241 03:04:22,240 --> 03:04:24,480 Speaker 5: But for those who are made away of the issues, 3242 03:04:24,600 --> 03:04:39,680 Speaker 5: I've noticed people adopt a range of responses. I think 3243 03:04:39,720 --> 03:04:43,520 Speaker 5: one of the first responses that I see to collapse 3244 03:04:44,440 --> 03:04:45,800 Speaker 5: is slumber. 3245 03:04:46,480 --> 03:04:46,600 Speaker 1: Right. 3246 03:04:47,360 --> 03:04:50,240 Speaker 5: They catch like a whiff of what's going on and 3247 03:04:50,400 --> 03:04:53,400 Speaker 5: decide to just turn over and go back to sleep, 3248 03:04:54,160 --> 03:04:59,760 Speaker 5: To purposefully embrace ignorance, disregard new information, and shun any 3249 03:04:59,800 --> 03:05:02,960 Speaker 5: under standing of what's going on. Perhaps you know their 3250 03:05:03,080 --> 03:05:08,000 Speaker 5: God and their fragile sanity, which is understandable, but people 3251 03:05:08,120 --> 03:05:13,440 Speaker 5: sleep in or we need to face these issues is 3252 03:05:14,360 --> 03:05:17,359 Speaker 5: a disaster waiting to happen. These issues are not going anywhere, 3253 03:05:17,440 --> 03:05:20,040 Speaker 5: and we really need people to have the courage and 3254 03:05:20,120 --> 03:05:23,000 Speaker 5: the boldness to face them instead of turning over and 3255 03:05:23,160 --> 03:05:26,600 Speaker 5: going back to sleep. Similarly to that response, we have 3256 03:05:26,720 --> 03:05:31,359 Speaker 5: the denial response, where people face with this reality, reject 3257 03:05:31,440 --> 03:05:35,120 Speaker 5: it consciously and construct their own or they stage for 3258 03:05:35,200 --> 03:05:38,160 Speaker 5: information that comforts them rather than exposes them to the truth. 3259 03:05:38,720 --> 03:05:41,520 Speaker 5: They construct a media bubble that shields them or a 3260 03:05:41,600 --> 03:05:44,920 Speaker 5: social circle that could protect them and reaffirm their core beliefs. 3261 03:05:45,720 --> 03:05:48,520 Speaker 5: Everyone is capable of denying reality, but it's become quite 3262 03:05:48,600 --> 03:05:51,119 Speaker 5: prevalent in the age of technology, where we can easily 3263 03:05:51,200 --> 03:05:55,440 Speaker 5: shut out any truths that make us uncomfortable. And then 3264 03:05:55,480 --> 03:05:58,920 Speaker 5: this apathy, you know, like slumber and denial. People respond 3265 03:05:59,000 --> 03:06:02,920 Speaker 5: with apathy to protect themselves in some way. After all, 3266 03:06:02,959 --> 03:06:05,400 Speaker 5: if nothing really matters, there's no need to try, no 3267 03:06:05,520 --> 03:06:09,080 Speaker 5: need to think, no need to bother Jesus, just disconnect 3268 03:06:10,400 --> 03:06:12,160 Speaker 5: as humans. I think we have a really tough time 3269 03:06:12,240 --> 03:06:16,000 Speaker 5: responding to non immediate threats. It's been said, as I 3270 03:06:16,040 --> 03:06:18,879 Speaker 5: said earlier, that no climate change isn't happening too quick, 3271 03:06:19,400 --> 03:06:24,560 Speaker 5: it's happening too slowly. It's not obvious enough. And because 3272 03:06:24,560 --> 03:06:26,640 Speaker 5: it's not obviously enough, it's very easy for this next 3273 03:06:26,720 --> 03:06:30,800 Speaker 5: response to be made manifest and it's preoccupation. Of course, 3274 03:06:30,840 --> 03:06:33,160 Speaker 5: this is more of a fault of the system. But 3275 03:06:33,320 --> 03:06:36,000 Speaker 5: people these days are all busy, you know, everyone can 3276 03:06:36,240 --> 03:06:39,480 Speaker 5: afford to invest and explore and understand the world's problems, 3277 03:06:39,920 --> 03:06:42,480 Speaker 5: even if the threat is so existential that their office 3278 03:06:42,520 --> 03:06:46,640 Speaker 5: busy work or retail servitude would ultimately amount to nothing. 3279 03:06:47,520 --> 03:06:49,160 Speaker 5: But I'm not talking about those people when I talk 3280 03:06:49,160 --> 03:06:51,920 Speaker 5: about preoccupation. I'm talking about the people who respond to 3281 03:06:51,959 --> 03:06:55,080 Speaker 5: the issues of the world by purposefully distracting themselves with 3282 03:06:55,120 --> 03:06:58,560 Speaker 5: busy work, constructing a convenient excuse to not challenge the 3283 03:06:58,600 --> 03:07:02,720 Speaker 5: structures that they are under, like running away for the 3284 03:07:02,760 --> 03:07:07,720 Speaker 5: predicaments of collapse. But the prodiccommends of collapse hatches up 3285 03:07:07,760 --> 03:07:11,600 Speaker 5: to all of us sooner or later. And on the 3286 03:07:11,640 --> 03:07:13,680 Speaker 5: flip side of the people who busy themselves with busy 3287 03:07:13,760 --> 03:07:16,920 Speaker 5: work are the people who dive into mind less consumerism, 3288 03:07:17,640 --> 03:07:21,360 Speaker 5: which is coupled with apathy to some extent. If nothing 3289 03:07:21,440 --> 03:07:26,160 Speaker 5: matters and everything's falling apart, you might as well just indulge, consume, 3290 03:07:26,800 --> 03:07:30,040 Speaker 5: distract yourself with games, music, party and drugs and drinking. 3291 03:07:30,120 --> 03:07:34,120 Speaker 5: It's like slumber, except you're aware of the reality and 3292 03:07:34,320 --> 03:07:38,240 Speaker 5: just plug in your ears to just dance. But at 3293 03:07:38,320 --> 03:07:42,720 Speaker 5: least for those that plug their ears, they don't face 3294 03:07:44,480 --> 03:07:50,480 Speaker 5: what I've called overwhelment. Some people respond by trying to 3295 03:07:50,600 --> 03:07:53,760 Speaker 5: wrap their minds around the depth and complexity of collapse 3296 03:07:54,320 --> 03:07:57,400 Speaker 5: to the point of obsession and just kind of end 3297 03:07:57,480 --> 03:08:01,720 Speaker 5: up losing their mind together there. I don't think there 3298 03:08:01,840 --> 03:08:05,120 Speaker 5: is any human mind that can completely consume and comprehend 3299 03:08:05,280 --> 03:08:07,760 Speaker 5: every minued problem we face. I think that's why we 3300 03:08:07,840 --> 03:08:11,760 Speaker 5: are social species, because we can we can kind of 3301 03:08:11,879 --> 03:08:17,480 Speaker 5: distribute that understanding of all the various problems so that 3302 03:08:17,640 --> 03:08:22,280 Speaker 5: no one person has to handle all of it. We 3303 03:08:22,440 --> 03:08:25,840 Speaker 5: really are going to need to come together to understand collapse, 3304 03:08:26,680 --> 03:08:30,879 Speaker 5: because as individuals, to deal with somethings to a complex, abstract, 3305 03:08:31,640 --> 03:08:38,120 Speaker 5: far flung and frightening, it's it's frankly, subjecting yourself to 3306 03:08:38,200 --> 03:08:42,240 Speaker 5: that is almost a form of self torture or self flagellation. 3307 03:08:43,280 --> 03:08:46,879 Speaker 5: And what we need is the oppositeity, people building each 3308 03:08:46,920 --> 03:08:50,920 Speaker 5: other up and healing our communities and coming together so 3309 03:08:51,000 --> 03:08:57,440 Speaker 5: we could solve this crisis. Of course, there is such 3310 03:08:57,480 --> 03:09:02,480 Speaker 5: a thing as being too caught up in that sort 3311 03:09:02,560 --> 03:09:07,920 Speaker 5: of hope, and a trap that a lot of people 3312 03:09:08,120 --> 03:09:12,320 Speaker 5: fall naturally into, because in a sense we are biologically 3313 03:09:12,520 --> 03:09:17,119 Speaker 5: predisposed towards optimism. We tend to hold on to hope 3314 03:09:17,160 --> 03:09:21,040 Speaker 5: in some future outcome they'll just work out, you know. 3315 03:09:21,360 --> 03:09:23,640 Speaker 5: And it's sort of a blind hope because it can't 3316 03:09:23,680 --> 03:09:27,880 Speaker 5: adjust to the ever shifting reality. It strips us of 3317 03:09:27,920 --> 03:09:31,120 Speaker 5: our ability to see clearly and to take realistic and 3318 03:09:31,280 --> 03:09:35,680 Speaker 5: necessary action. We give up our agency and leave things 3319 03:09:35,760 --> 03:09:38,320 Speaker 5: in the hands of the leaders and the experts. We 3320 03:09:38,440 --> 03:09:41,960 Speaker 5: stay passive. We waste time, precious time we spend on 3321 03:09:42,160 --> 03:09:46,240 Speaker 5: real harm reduction, just going with the flow. We prevent 3322 03:09:46,320 --> 03:09:49,320 Speaker 5: the necessary conversations with the blind hope when we fixate 3323 03:09:49,480 --> 03:09:51,720 Speaker 5: so much on whether we can fix it or how 3324 03:09:51,800 --> 03:09:54,400 Speaker 5: we can fix it, without considering what we need to do. 3325 03:09:54,520 --> 03:09:58,600 Speaker 5: If we can't fix it, you know what happens? Then 3326 03:10:00,520 --> 03:10:04,920 Speaker 5: blind hope manifests in a few different forms. But I 3327 03:10:05,000 --> 03:10:08,960 Speaker 5: think whatever formant comes into it ultimately and ultimately and 3328 03:10:09,040 --> 03:10:13,480 Speaker 5: inevitably leads to disappointment, waiting forever for future that won't come, 3329 03:10:13,600 --> 03:10:18,720 Speaker 5: that exists solely in one's mind, irrespective of reality. It's 3330 03:10:19,240 --> 03:10:23,760 Speaker 5: quite frankly a form of denial. It takes a bit 3331 03:10:23,800 --> 03:10:27,040 Speaker 5: of a journey to move towards a greater level of 3332 03:10:28,280 --> 03:10:31,960 Speaker 5: emotional maturity to handle the tough conversations and let go 3333 03:10:32,320 --> 03:10:36,120 Speaker 5: of the false hopes, like the idea that will somehow 3334 03:10:36,240 --> 03:10:38,680 Speaker 5: reverse all the damage our planet has been dealt with 3335 03:10:38,800 --> 03:10:42,680 Speaker 5: scot free. But once we have done that, and once 3336 03:10:42,720 --> 03:10:47,080 Speaker 5: we have strengthened or resolve and strengthen our ability to 3337 03:10:47,240 --> 03:10:50,680 Speaker 5: process and to engage with the reality of what's happening, 3338 03:10:51,840 --> 03:10:56,320 Speaker 5: we can take action with knowledge that no, our leader 3339 03:10:56,360 --> 03:10:58,640 Speaker 5: is not going to do anything substantially enough, and no, 3340 03:10:58,879 --> 03:11:02,760 Speaker 5: this moves far beyond reform. It really is a hard 3341 03:11:02,920 --> 03:11:06,960 Speaker 5: pill to swallow, but if you can take it, you'll 3342 03:11:07,000 --> 03:11:13,279 Speaker 5: be better off to resist. We really don't need blind 3343 03:11:13,360 --> 03:11:17,279 Speaker 5: hope and resistance. I think hope is important. I'm distinguishing 3344 03:11:17,320 --> 03:11:23,840 Speaker 5: it from hope. Blind hope, however, is a distraction and 3345 03:11:24,040 --> 03:11:26,680 Speaker 5: sort of connected to the blind hope conversation. Are the 3346 03:11:27,400 --> 03:11:32,560 Speaker 5: people who respond to this crisis with the obsession with 3347 03:11:32,680 --> 03:11:37,000 Speaker 5: individual change, people who believe with a few tweaks here 3348 03:11:37,080 --> 03:11:40,480 Speaker 5: and there that we can continue or perpetual growth, we 3349 03:11:40,640 --> 03:11:43,920 Speaker 5: just have to switch to veganism or recycle or cockpool 3350 03:11:43,959 --> 03:11:48,360 Speaker 5: every once in a while, and that that individual level 3351 03:11:48,480 --> 03:11:52,760 Speaker 5: action on a large enough scale would resolve the crisis. 3352 03:11:54,240 --> 03:11:57,240 Speaker 5: They place a lot of stock and blame in individuals entirely, 3353 03:11:58,120 --> 03:12:01,800 Speaker 5: and they don't engage with the wires structures of society. 3354 03:12:04,320 --> 03:12:06,440 Speaker 5: A lot of liberals, of course, fall into this camp. 3355 03:12:08,480 --> 03:12:12,840 Speaker 5: And speaking of liberals, we see a very pernicious trend 3356 03:12:14,320 --> 03:12:19,040 Speaker 5: of progress worship as another response to collapse. The author 3357 03:12:19,240 --> 03:12:22,040 Speaker 5: Dennis Meadows actually points out a curious trend over the 3358 03:12:22,080 --> 03:12:26,360 Speaker 5: past four decades. There's a constant shift in justifying why 3359 03:12:26,440 --> 03:12:30,279 Speaker 5: we shouldn't change our behavior. Back in the seventies, critics 3360 03:12:30,360 --> 03:12:33,600 Speaker 5: were saying, no limits. You know, anyone who thinks they're limits, 3361 03:12:33,640 --> 03:12:36,720 Speaker 5: they just don't get it. In the eighties they're saying, oh, 3362 03:12:36,800 --> 03:12:39,800 Speaker 5: actually there are limits, but they are very far away. 3363 03:12:39,840 --> 03:12:42,600 Speaker 5: We have nothing to worry about, nothing to lose sleep over. 3364 03:12:43,600 --> 03:12:46,400 Speaker 5: And then in today nineties, the limits are no longer 3365 03:12:46,520 --> 03:12:50,320 Speaker 5: at are no longer is distant. And then the supporters 3366 03:12:50,360 --> 03:12:53,280 Speaker 5: of growth they chiming with, oh, well, you know the 3367 03:12:53,440 --> 03:12:55,880 Speaker 5: limits are close, but no worries. You know, the markets 3368 03:12:55,920 --> 03:12:59,280 Speaker 5: and technology will swoop in and fix everything. And then 3369 03:12:59,320 --> 03:13:02,000 Speaker 5: you reach into two thousands and it becomes clear that 3370 03:13:02,120 --> 03:13:05,520 Speaker 5: the tech and the markets might not cut it, and 3371 03:13:05,560 --> 03:13:08,840 Speaker 5: then a narrative spins again. Regardless of whether not the 3372 03:13:08,920 --> 03:13:10,760 Speaker 5: markets or tech and cut it, we still need to 3373 03:13:10,800 --> 03:13:12,960 Speaker 5: push for growth because that's the goal and ticket to 3374 03:13:13,040 --> 03:13:16,200 Speaker 5: the resources we need to tackle lot of problems. It's 3375 03:13:16,800 --> 03:13:23,360 Speaker 5: basically a game of justification hopscotch. It's almost a cult 3376 03:13:23,720 --> 03:13:26,280 Speaker 5: of progress that any and all growth is good. That 3377 03:13:26,360 --> 03:13:30,320 Speaker 5: don't matter the consequences of on our finite earth, we 3378 03:13:30,440 --> 03:13:34,480 Speaker 5: can just expand and expand eternally. A lot of the 3379 03:13:34,560 --> 03:13:37,400 Speaker 5: responses I get to my discussions of the growth or 3380 03:13:37,440 --> 03:13:40,520 Speaker 5: post growth or whatever, it's like, yeah, but you can't 3381 03:13:40,600 --> 03:13:44,480 Speaker 5: do that because then the GP wouldn't grow and wouldn't 3382 03:13:44,800 --> 03:13:48,000 Speaker 5: elevate people's unders of living. And you know, it's not 3383 03:13:48,240 --> 03:13:49,879 Speaker 5: fair that global. 3384 03:13:50,400 --> 03:13:52,760 Speaker 4: Wait Andrew, are you a Malthusian? 3385 03:13:57,680 --> 03:13:59,800 Speaker 5: Nothing of the sort. Nothing of the sort. But I 3386 03:13:59,840 --> 03:14:03,160 Speaker 5: think that we should not be fallen into this shrap 3387 03:14:03,200 --> 03:14:06,240 Speaker 5: of being like, oh, well, you know, it's not fair 3388 03:14:06,320 --> 03:14:08,480 Speaker 5: that these rich countries they get to reach that level 3389 03:14:08,480 --> 03:14:10,480 Speaker 5: of development and then we have to, like and then 3390 03:14:10,560 --> 03:14:12,760 Speaker 5: what we're going to step in and stop other countries 3391 03:14:12,760 --> 03:14:15,320 Speaker 5: from doing so When it's not that I mean, I'm 3392 03:14:15,360 --> 03:14:18,240 Speaker 5: speaking from a not rich country. What I'm saying is 3393 03:14:18,320 --> 03:14:20,480 Speaker 5: that the what I say to this equal is that 3394 03:14:20,760 --> 03:14:24,560 Speaker 5: the path of development these rich countries took it's not sustainable. 3395 03:14:24,920 --> 03:14:28,279 Speaker 5: It is literally dooming us all. Yes, the entire population 3396 03:14:28,600 --> 03:14:33,880 Speaker 5: cannot strive for the level of consumption that Americans strive for. 3397 03:14:34,480 --> 03:14:37,720 Speaker 5: Do I think the development days take place, absolutely, but 3398 03:14:37,920 --> 03:14:40,840 Speaker 5: not on the trajectory, not following in the footsteps of 3399 03:14:41,440 --> 03:14:47,960 Speaker 5: these rich countries, this global North, and it's like I 3400 03:14:48,080 --> 03:14:54,120 Speaker 5: see of decimating the world, you know, places like India, 3401 03:14:54,240 --> 03:14:58,480 Speaker 5: place like the Caribbean, places in Africa. You know, we 3402 03:14:58,640 --> 03:15:03,920 Speaker 5: do need to, you know, improve housing, and improve access 3403 03:15:03,959 --> 03:15:08,560 Speaker 5: to water, and improve access to education, all these different things. 3404 03:15:10,440 --> 03:15:21,240 Speaker 5: But chasing after this sort of careless economic growth narrative 3405 03:15:21,440 --> 03:15:26,840 Speaker 5: and path is just going to accelerate all of our destruction. 3406 03:15:28,280 --> 03:15:31,280 Speaker 5: I agree with the need for reparations from global North 3407 03:15:31,360 --> 03:15:34,360 Speaker 5: to global South that will allow us to reach the 3408 03:15:34,520 --> 03:15:43,160 Speaker 5: level of we could reach the quality of life that 3409 03:15:43,280 --> 03:15:46,720 Speaker 5: I think every human should have access to. But I 3410 03:15:46,800 --> 03:15:51,480 Speaker 5: don't think that that is the same thing as saying that, oh, well, 3411 03:15:52,000 --> 03:15:57,080 Speaker 5: you know, every country should have their own equivalent of 3412 03:15:57,600 --> 03:16:02,720 Speaker 5: Britain and the US's Industrial Revolution, And who cares that 3413 03:16:04,360 --> 03:16:08,039 Speaker 5: that ship has sealed, that window of opportunity has passed. 3414 03:16:08,959 --> 03:16:12,520 Speaker 4: Yeah, And I think going back to like your series 3415 03:16:12,720 --> 03:16:15,160 Speaker 4: of episodes on cults, when you're talking about the cult 3416 03:16:15,240 --> 03:16:17,560 Speaker 4: of progress, I think that is that gets thrown on 3417 03:16:17,640 --> 03:16:20,000 Speaker 4: as like a very trendy term, but I think it 3418 03:16:20,160 --> 03:16:23,960 Speaker 4: has a lot of truth in it for this specific reason. 3419 03:16:24,440 --> 03:16:28,600 Speaker 4: In order to maintain the type of progress that is 3420 03:16:28,760 --> 03:16:33,520 Speaker 4: necessary to sustain this at this current point, what seems 3421 03:16:33,520 --> 03:16:36,920 Speaker 4: to be a very unsustainable method of interacting with the planet. 3422 03:16:38,000 --> 03:16:41,400 Speaker 4: You have to rely on growth as this thing that 3423 03:16:42,120 --> 03:16:47,160 Speaker 4: you can't actually like predict its It's you can't actually 3424 03:16:47,240 --> 03:16:48,880 Speaker 4: predict a real endpoint for it. 3425 03:16:49,040 --> 03:16:52,560 Speaker 3: You have to only assume and only hope that it 3426 03:16:52,680 --> 03:16:53,280 Speaker 3: will get there. 3427 03:16:53,480 --> 03:16:57,599 Speaker 4: It's this that's why there's this real sense of accelerationism 3428 03:16:58,120 --> 03:17:01,080 Speaker 4: throughout these whole industries, because people know that if we 3429 03:17:01,160 --> 03:17:04,520 Speaker 4: continue just doing this way, the planet will not be functional, 3430 03:17:04,680 --> 03:17:08,680 Speaker 4: at least for us in like one hundred years, probably 3431 03:17:08,840 --> 03:17:13,080 Speaker 4: you know in much less time as well. But the 3432 03:17:13,160 --> 03:17:15,920 Speaker 4: reason why they're all continuing is that they have the 3433 03:17:16,200 --> 03:17:18,200 Speaker 4: people have it have this idea in their heads that 3434 03:17:18,240 --> 03:17:20,520 Speaker 4: if we just if we just keep accelerating, if we 3435 03:17:20,680 --> 03:17:22,840 Speaker 4: keep going, we have to go faster and faster and faster, 3436 03:17:23,160 --> 03:17:26,879 Speaker 4: because we'll find something along the way that will magically 3437 03:17:26,920 --> 03:17:30,040 Speaker 4: fix the problem. Well, if the only way to fix 3438 03:17:30,080 --> 03:17:33,040 Speaker 4: the problem is to continue accelerating, and we'll find this 3439 03:17:33,320 --> 03:17:36,200 Speaker 4: thing that doesn't currently exist, but we'll find like this 3440 03:17:36,440 --> 03:17:41,800 Speaker 4: like supernatural device or discovery that allows us to kind 3441 03:17:41,800 --> 03:17:44,560 Speaker 4: of fix the little problem we've made for ourselves. And 3442 03:17:44,680 --> 03:17:47,800 Speaker 4: it is a very like religious belief that if if 3443 03:17:47,879 --> 03:17:51,440 Speaker 4: we just keep going, we'll like get some like deep this, 3444 03:17:51,720 --> 03:17:53,680 Speaker 4: some like some like deep special insight. 3445 03:17:54,440 --> 03:17:57,920 Speaker 5: We've reached the point where people are lesterally looking to 3446 03:17:58,480 --> 03:18:01,640 Speaker 5: have uns like almost in a super natural sense, Yeah, 3447 03:18:01,680 --> 03:18:03,520 Speaker 5: to find a situation like oh, well, we'll just be 3448 03:18:03,520 --> 03:18:07,080 Speaker 5: able to keep on going because asteroid mining, We'll just 3449 03:18:07,160 --> 03:18:09,959 Speaker 5: go one settlement other planets and I'll continue our expansion 3450 03:18:10,040 --> 03:18:11,520 Speaker 5: endlessly and we could just keep on going. 3451 03:18:11,600 --> 03:18:15,520 Speaker 4: And you also see this with people like developing AI. 3452 03:18:15,640 --> 03:18:18,280 Speaker 4: They're like, if we if we get into AI smart enough, 3453 03:18:18,800 --> 03:18:20,800 Speaker 4: it'll be able to tell us how to fix our problem. 3454 03:18:21,200 --> 03:18:23,920 Speaker 4: And it is a deeply spiritual drive. It is a 3455 03:18:24,040 --> 03:18:26,680 Speaker 4: very cultish drive, like we have to keep going, even 3456 03:18:26,760 --> 03:18:30,360 Speaker 4: though we are currently dooming ourselves by continuing. We have 3457 03:18:30,480 --> 03:18:32,160 Speaker 4: to continue because that's the only way that we'll get 3458 03:18:32,160 --> 03:18:34,600 Speaker 4: this out of this problem. It's like we can, we can, 3459 03:18:34,840 --> 03:18:38,160 Speaker 4: we can only dig deeper, like we've gone so far 3460 03:18:38,280 --> 03:18:38,600 Speaker 4: into the. 3461 03:18:38,640 --> 03:18:39,360 Speaker 3: Center of the earth. 3462 03:18:40,280 --> 03:18:44,120 Speaker 4: It's faster, Yeah, it's faster to dig out the other 3463 03:18:44,160 --> 03:18:45,880 Speaker 4: way than actually try to turn around and fill the 3464 03:18:45,920 --> 03:18:48,680 Speaker 4: hole again. It is a very cultish spiritual drive to 3465 03:18:48,760 --> 03:18:53,119 Speaker 4: like continue this, to continue and like explicitly like accelerate 3466 03:18:53,280 --> 03:18:57,440 Speaker 4: development because we've realized we've done something that's uh from 3467 03:18:57,480 --> 03:19:01,120 Speaker 4: our current point of view, almost irreparable. But there's this, 3468 03:19:01,440 --> 03:19:03,680 Speaker 4: there is this belief that if we owe that the 3469 03:19:03,840 --> 03:19:06,160 Speaker 4: only way to fix it is is if we keep going, 3470 03:19:06,440 --> 03:19:10,440 Speaker 4: then will somehow stumble across the magical the magical thing 3471 03:19:10,520 --> 03:19:11,560 Speaker 4: that will fix our problem. 3472 03:19:22,959 --> 03:19:28,840 Speaker 5: I want to talk specifically about the sort of I mean, 3473 03:19:28,879 --> 03:19:30,240 Speaker 5: I know there are other people in the world who 3474 03:19:30,240 --> 03:19:32,280 Speaker 5: wards how there's response, in the global South, who will 3475 03:19:32,320 --> 03:19:33,840 Speaker 5: olds how there's response. But I see a lot of 3476 03:19:34,080 --> 03:19:40,039 Speaker 5: Americans responding to my like decreath advocacy or whatever saying, well, 3477 03:19:40,080 --> 03:19:43,240 Speaker 5: what about the global cellth you know, I mean, nevermind, 3478 03:19:43,320 --> 03:19:46,520 Speaker 5: I live in the global South, what about the global cell? 3479 03:19:47,680 --> 03:19:54,400 Speaker 5: And what really gets me about it is just how 3480 03:19:54,440 --> 03:19:57,040 Speaker 5: it's almost like a way of comfort in themselves. 3481 03:19:57,520 --> 03:20:01,959 Speaker 4: Sure it's it's it's using the struggles of marginalize people 3482 03:20:02,360 --> 03:20:06,240 Speaker 4: to not interrogate your own role in the continuing destruction 3483 03:20:06,440 --> 03:20:11,400 Speaker 4: and like systemic oppression that produces this great economic and 3484 03:20:11,720 --> 03:20:15,400 Speaker 4: u and like a difference in quality of life. 3485 03:20:15,840 --> 03:20:17,680 Speaker 5: Because it's like you have to then you'll have to 3486 03:20:17,720 --> 03:20:21,279 Speaker 5: confront the fact that maybe your lifestyle and the privilege, 3487 03:20:21,320 --> 03:20:25,240 Speaker 5: some of the lifestyle and privileges you enjoyed really should 3488 03:20:25,280 --> 03:20:29,160 Speaker 5: not be enjoyed by anyone ever, Like maybe that level 3489 03:20:29,240 --> 03:20:31,320 Speaker 5: of the thing was never sustainable in the first place, 3490 03:20:31,360 --> 03:20:34,560 Speaker 5: and we could have done with less. And I know 3491 03:20:34,680 --> 03:20:39,760 Speaker 5: it's really I really hate having this kind of conversation 3492 03:20:39,879 --> 03:20:42,360 Speaker 5: on the internet because I think it's very difficult to 3493 03:20:42,400 --> 03:20:45,160 Speaker 5: get into the left of nuances necessary because then I 3494 03:20:45,240 --> 03:20:46,879 Speaker 5: know people will say, oh, well, I'm from a week 3495 03:20:46,920 --> 03:20:50,119 Speaker 5: in class background from this and that I've also faced 3496 03:20:50,160 --> 03:20:53,160 Speaker 5: livel deprivation. I get all that, but then there are 3497 03:20:53,200 --> 03:20:58,039 Speaker 5: other things where I'm like, you know, can we live 3498 03:20:58,080 --> 03:21:01,840 Speaker 5: in a world where everyone has access to Amazon one 3499 03:21:01,920 --> 03:21:06,160 Speaker 5: day ship in two day shipping, you know. Can we 3500 03:21:06,280 --> 03:21:09,879 Speaker 5: live in a world where everyone owns a car, even 3501 03:21:09,920 --> 03:21:14,480 Speaker 5: if it's an electric car. I think there are certain 3502 03:21:15,720 --> 03:21:21,600 Speaker 5: standards of I guess lifestyle or milestones of lifestyle that 3503 03:21:21,920 --> 03:21:23,960 Speaker 5: we've come to accept that I think in retrospect, we 3504 03:21:24,000 --> 03:21:27,240 Speaker 5: will look back and say, Wow, that was an aberration 3505 03:21:28,400 --> 03:21:32,560 Speaker 5: of human history that we were even maintaining that sort 3506 03:21:32,600 --> 03:21:38,320 Speaker 5: of infrastructure, even maintaining that level of consumption. You know, 3507 03:21:38,360 --> 03:21:40,280 Speaker 5: I'm sure a couple of generations online people will look 3508 03:21:40,280 --> 03:21:42,480 Speaker 5: back and be like, wow, do you tell me nearly 3509 03:21:42,640 --> 03:21:46,000 Speaker 5: every household had a car and that everybody was just 3510 03:21:46,080 --> 03:21:48,120 Speaker 5: on the roads driving all the time, and we built 3511 03:21:48,160 --> 03:21:55,760 Speaker 5: our cities or infrastructure around vehicles when we knew very 3512 03:21:55,840 --> 03:21:58,280 Speaker 5: early on, when the oil companies knew very early on 3513 03:21:58,440 --> 03:22:02,480 Speaker 5: that eventually we would run out, we just didn't care. 3514 03:22:06,160 --> 03:22:07,880 Speaker 5: I'm kind of all over the place with this, but 3515 03:22:08,040 --> 03:22:09,800 Speaker 5: you're gonna say something, well. 3516 03:22:09,680 --> 03:22:12,880 Speaker 4: I was also gonna mention like in these in these 3517 03:22:12,920 --> 03:22:15,800 Speaker 4: sorts of discussions, it also can be often overlooked that 3518 03:22:16,959 --> 03:22:19,720 Speaker 4: just because you live in the United States or in 3519 03:22:19,800 --> 03:22:21,760 Speaker 4: any other kind of big place, that doesn't mean like 3520 03:22:22,640 --> 03:22:26,720 Speaker 4: it's that's not The United States isn't one place. There 3521 03:22:26,800 --> 03:22:29,279 Speaker 4: is a difference between living and like a five thousand 3522 03:22:29,320 --> 03:22:34,320 Speaker 4: dollars apartment in a downtown like city center, versus living 3523 03:22:34,600 --> 03:22:37,920 Speaker 4: on the outskirts of town in like a house that's 3524 03:22:37,959 --> 03:22:41,560 Speaker 4: falling apart right or living on the street, or or 3525 03:22:41,640 --> 03:22:45,480 Speaker 4: living in the middle of Utah versus living on the 3526 03:22:45,600 --> 03:22:49,480 Speaker 4: coast like there's or living in like a montane like there's. 3527 03:22:49,680 --> 03:22:51,880 Speaker 4: There is such a large difference even for people in 3528 03:22:51,959 --> 03:22:55,440 Speaker 4: the States, for like many many like not everyone is 3529 03:22:55,520 --> 03:23:01,120 Speaker 4: able to live in this like very are arguably very 3530 03:23:01,360 --> 03:23:06,800 Speaker 4: very unsustainable, very like hyper hyper modernity. Way there is 3531 03:23:06,920 --> 03:23:10,560 Speaker 4: there is, there's millions of people that of course, like no, 3532 03:23:11,440 --> 03:23:13,280 Speaker 4: I'm not saying that against your point. I'm saying, like 3533 03:23:13,320 --> 03:23:15,440 Speaker 4: this is this is also part of the problem. Like 3534 03:23:15,520 --> 03:23:18,440 Speaker 4: we have we have tricked ourselves into thinking that if 3535 03:23:18,480 --> 03:23:20,360 Speaker 4: you if you live in the United States, that must 3536 03:23:20,480 --> 03:23:25,280 Speaker 4: mean you are like you are one of the elite few. 3537 03:23:25,680 --> 03:23:28,800 Speaker 4: But there's millions of people who are living in like 3538 03:23:28,959 --> 03:23:32,800 Speaker 4: the like some of the most some of the harshest 3539 03:23:33,400 --> 03:23:36,520 Speaker 4: conditions in the world, even in the richest country in 3540 03:23:36,600 --> 03:23:38,760 Speaker 4: the world, like it is is anti. 3541 03:23:38,720 --> 03:23:42,360 Speaker 5: Growth is not coming to take from one's meager lifestyle 3542 03:23:42,720 --> 03:23:45,720 Speaker 5: if one lives in those circumstances, you know, deep growth 3543 03:23:45,840 --> 03:23:48,800 Speaker 5: is really coming after those on the other end of 3544 03:23:48,879 --> 03:23:50,279 Speaker 5: that spectrum of life style. 3545 03:23:52,360 --> 03:23:54,440 Speaker 4: No, if if any, it would be, and it would 3546 03:23:54,480 --> 03:23:59,039 Speaker 4: be a greater equalizer between people living in countries. 3547 03:24:00,280 --> 03:24:01,360 Speaker 5: Of your standard of living. 3548 03:24:01,680 --> 03:24:04,280 Speaker 4: Yes, as as as well as looking at you know, 3549 03:24:04,440 --> 03:24:07,240 Speaker 4: quote unquote like the global South or quote unquote like 3550 03:24:07,640 --> 03:24:11,440 Speaker 4: third world countries, like there is there's this idea of 3551 03:24:11,560 --> 03:24:14,080 Speaker 4: like I think we've had someone on this show to 3552 03:24:14,080 --> 03:24:17,080 Speaker 4: talk about this before, Joey, like the fourth World, like 3553 03:24:17,160 --> 03:24:19,160 Speaker 4: you're you were living in third world conditions but. 3554 03:24:19,200 --> 03:24:20,320 Speaker 3: In a first world country. 3555 03:24:21,040 --> 03:24:23,720 Speaker 4: And how all of these, all of these types of 3556 03:24:25,320 --> 03:24:28,440 Speaker 4: these all of these types of systemic inequality and differences 3557 03:24:28,520 --> 03:24:32,080 Speaker 4: and uh like a cost of living, living conditions, they 3558 03:24:32,160 --> 03:24:35,160 Speaker 4: all they all come by in together in really Gaussian 3559 03:24:35,680 --> 03:24:39,880 Speaker 4: fuzzy ways, even if you live in the United States, Canada, England, 3560 03:24:40,000 --> 03:24:45,040 Speaker 4: like Germany, wherever, and and and it produces this extremely 3561 03:24:45,440 --> 03:24:46,480 Speaker 4: extremely bizarre. 3562 03:24:46,240 --> 03:24:48,320 Speaker 3: Mishmash of of. 3563 03:24:50,480 --> 03:24:51,279 Speaker 5: Circumstances. 3564 03:24:51,400 --> 03:24:54,119 Speaker 4: Of circumstances. Yeah, you can you can walk by someone 3565 03:24:54,160 --> 03:24:58,160 Speaker 4: who's driving like a five hundred thousand dollars car. Meanwhile 3566 03:24:58,840 --> 03:25:01,360 Speaker 4: you are literally being forced to live on the street 3567 03:25:01,480 --> 03:25:03,800 Speaker 4: like that is that is so that is such a 3568 03:25:03,959 --> 03:25:06,200 Speaker 4: bizarre dichotomy. 3569 03:25:06,120 --> 03:25:09,000 Speaker 5: The few times I've been to the US seeing that dichotomy, 3570 03:25:09,560 --> 03:25:12,760 Speaker 5: like in real something else. I mean, of course there's 3571 03:25:12,760 --> 03:25:15,880 Speaker 5: an incoming equality, and there's vastest parties in wealth and 3572 03:25:15,959 --> 03:25:18,920 Speaker 5: turned out as well. You know, there are people who 3573 03:25:19,640 --> 03:25:21,400 Speaker 5: you know live on the streets and their people who 3574 03:25:22,360 --> 03:25:27,160 Speaker 5: you know go to yacht parties every weekend. What I 3575 03:25:27,280 --> 03:25:31,080 Speaker 5: want people to recognize is the way that these elites 3576 03:25:31,360 --> 03:25:33,920 Speaker 5: get you to advocate against your own interests is through 3577 03:25:33,959 --> 03:25:37,879 Speaker 5: that sort of and connect you to their culture progress 3578 03:25:38,920 --> 03:25:41,360 Speaker 5: and get you invested in their culture progress. Hook you 3579 03:25:41,480 --> 03:25:46,360 Speaker 5: in is through that sort of temporarily embarrassed to millionaire mantra. 3580 03:25:47,200 --> 03:25:49,800 Speaker 5: They hook you in by saying, yeah, they're coming for 3581 03:25:50,080 --> 03:25:52,880 Speaker 5: our stuff. Eventually you get to my level too, and 3582 03:25:53,760 --> 03:25:55,680 Speaker 5: then you wouldn't want people to take your stuff away either, 3583 03:25:56,200 --> 03:26:00,400 Speaker 5: you know, like my tech development is gonna right, We're 3584 03:26:00,400 --> 03:26:04,640 Speaker 5: going to bring all of us up, you know, and 3585 03:26:04,720 --> 03:26:07,840 Speaker 5: you shouldn't let these people stop you. Rather than no, well, 3586 03:26:08,360 --> 03:26:11,080 Speaker 5: obviously these rush guys are going to get brought down 3587 03:26:11,120 --> 03:26:14,199 Speaker 5: a peg, but by bringing them down a peg, everybody 3588 03:26:14,240 --> 03:26:19,560 Speaker 5: will have a better quality of life. But instead of 3589 03:26:19,959 --> 03:26:27,560 Speaker 5: recognizing that, they deceive people with this techno opim, they 3590 03:26:27,640 --> 03:26:33,160 Speaker 5: bring people into this trap of capitalist realism that either 3591 03:26:34,200 --> 03:26:37,120 Speaker 5: you live in the deprivation of the worst of the 3592 03:26:37,160 --> 03:26:41,120 Speaker 5: worst of people's livelihoods and the capitalism, or you live 3593 03:26:41,200 --> 03:26:42,880 Speaker 5: in the excess of the best of the best of 3594 03:26:42,920 --> 03:26:46,240 Speaker 5: people's lives and the capitalism. And there's nothing beyond those 3595 03:26:46,280 --> 03:26:49,800 Speaker 5: two options. And so obviously the de growth people want 3596 03:26:49,879 --> 03:26:53,600 Speaker 5: you to be living in the former option, and you 3597 03:26:53,600 --> 03:26:57,560 Speaker 5: should oppose them because of that. Another response I see 3598 03:26:57,600 --> 03:26:58,800 Speaker 5: is that there are a lot of people who are 3599 03:26:58,920 --> 03:27:07,000 Speaker 5: just completely like have complete faith in our leaders, who 3600 03:27:07,080 --> 03:27:09,120 Speaker 5: believe that, you know, once we get just the right 3601 03:27:09,240 --> 03:27:13,880 Speaker 5: people in office, things will work out. The truth is, 3602 03:27:13,920 --> 03:27:16,440 Speaker 5: of course, the system corrupts even the best of intentions. 3603 03:27:16,879 --> 03:27:19,480 Speaker 5: Politicians are a class and to themselves, and their actions 3604 03:27:19,520 --> 03:27:23,080 Speaker 5: reflect ultimately their own interests and the interests of their backers. 3605 03:27:23,680 --> 03:27:26,640 Speaker 5: Nation states, governments, rulers. Is their job, it's in their 3606 03:27:26,720 --> 03:27:30,800 Speaker 5: job description to maintain structures that ultimately harm humanity, and 3607 03:27:30,840 --> 03:27:32,960 Speaker 5: there's only so much they can do to affect the 3608 03:27:33,000 --> 03:27:38,080 Speaker 5: status cho placing our salvation in their hands. It's an 3609 03:27:38,080 --> 03:27:42,320 Speaker 5: exercise in futility, invest in your future and the confines 3610 03:27:42,400 --> 03:27:45,800 Speaker 5: the electoralism is a waste of time, but it also 3611 03:27:45,840 --> 03:27:49,360 Speaker 5: demonstrates whoy effectively mass media and schooling has broken down 3612 03:27:49,440 --> 03:27:53,359 Speaker 5: and limited our imagination. I like to call that status realism, 3613 03:27:53,440 --> 03:27:56,400 Speaker 5: the idea that there's no alternative to this hierarchy of 3614 03:27:56,480 --> 03:27:59,920 Speaker 5: rulers and rule, that people just need to submit to 3615 03:28:00,040 --> 03:28:02,960 Speaker 5: the wills and whims of others rather than organizing for 3616 03:28:03,080 --> 03:28:07,240 Speaker 5: themselves in their communities. There's, of course, the response of 3617 03:28:08,080 --> 03:28:13,800 Speaker 5: apocalypse worship rather classic response around those who end up 3618 03:28:13,800 --> 03:28:17,600 Speaker 5: obsessing over collapse and honestly that the worshippers of the 3619 03:28:17,640 --> 03:28:20,520 Speaker 5: apocalypse are also houl to a form of blind hope. 3620 03:28:21,160 --> 03:28:25,440 Speaker 5: You know, the accelerationists, doomsday preppers, cultists, extreme survivalists, zombie 3621 03:28:25,520 --> 03:28:29,240 Speaker 5: video game enthusiasts, believers in the end times. They all 3622 03:28:29,360 --> 03:28:32,840 Speaker 5: seem to have a whole so they seem to have 3623 03:28:33,360 --> 03:28:37,920 Speaker 5: a real excitement for collapse, or they fixate really heavily 3624 03:28:37,959 --> 03:28:39,840 Speaker 5: on the ideal version of the end of the world, 3625 03:28:41,440 --> 03:28:44,600 Speaker 5: like they can't wait for the world to end. They 3626 03:28:44,680 --> 03:28:47,320 Speaker 5: embrace the sort of we're all on our own mantra, 3627 03:28:48,160 --> 03:28:54,840 Speaker 5: barricade themselves, bunker down, stockpile weapons and essentials. They get 3628 03:28:54,879 --> 03:28:58,560 Speaker 5: en up for a violent future because they anticipate that 3629 03:28:58,800 --> 03:29:04,240 Speaker 5: others will react to the situation similarly to how they 3630 03:29:04,320 --> 03:29:07,800 Speaker 5: intend to react. So they're taken like a page from 3631 03:29:07,840 --> 03:29:10,800 Speaker 5: ad Max and like, yeah, I'm going to be immortant Joe, 3632 03:29:10,879 --> 03:29:14,280 Speaker 5: so I don't end up a thrall of immortant Joe. 3633 03:29:15,080 --> 03:29:15,280 Speaker 4: Yeah. 3634 03:29:16,320 --> 03:29:18,600 Speaker 5: I mean, if it's not obvious, the people who respond 3635 03:29:18,640 --> 03:29:21,080 Speaker 5: in this way freak me out, you know, those who 3636 03:29:21,160 --> 03:29:24,280 Speaker 5: look at what's going on and instead of resisting or 3637 03:29:24,320 --> 03:29:27,920 Speaker 5: trying to change the circumstances, they just accept it as 3638 03:29:28,000 --> 03:29:31,720 Speaker 5: things going according to schedule of prophecy, or they try 3639 03:29:31,800 --> 03:29:34,560 Speaker 5: to make it worse. I don't know if you've seen 3640 03:29:36,240 --> 03:29:37,039 Speaker 5: Leave the World. 3641 03:29:36,879 --> 03:29:39,680 Speaker 3: Behind, Oh my god, yes, horrible. 3642 03:29:42,120 --> 03:29:46,760 Speaker 5: Yeah, I'm sure you remember that one character and that 3643 03:29:46,959 --> 03:29:51,600 Speaker 5: prepper and his whole response to the crisis before him 3644 03:29:52,920 --> 03:29:55,040 Speaker 5: completing that a selfishness. 3645 03:29:55,320 --> 03:29:58,640 Speaker 4: Which is a betrayal to his character inspiration in the 3646 03:29:58,720 --> 03:30:01,920 Speaker 4: movie Tremors, which showed the correct way to be a prepper, 3647 03:30:02,040 --> 03:30:05,199 Speaker 4: which is to actually help the people in your community. 3648 03:30:06,920 --> 03:30:09,000 Speaker 5: I actually haven't seen that movie. That it's my list. 3649 03:30:09,640 --> 03:30:13,160 Speaker 4: It's what it is a it is an old movie 3650 03:30:13,200 --> 03:30:16,360 Speaker 4: about a worm that takes over a small town. It's 3651 03:30:16,440 --> 03:30:17,959 Speaker 4: pretty silly, but it does. 3652 03:30:20,240 --> 03:30:20,880 Speaker 3: I don't think so. 3653 03:30:21,280 --> 03:30:24,119 Speaker 5: No, it sounds like something Stephen King would write. 3654 03:30:24,520 --> 03:30:26,880 Speaker 4: It's it's not really a horror. It's more of like 3655 03:30:27,000 --> 03:30:28,640 Speaker 4: a comedy thriller. 3656 03:30:28,959 --> 03:30:30,960 Speaker 5: Like it's a comedy. 3657 03:30:31,360 --> 03:30:34,920 Speaker 4: Okay, it's not a comedy, but it is a nately 3658 03:30:35,040 --> 03:30:38,120 Speaker 4: funny situation. Also because it's like filmed in the eighties 3659 03:30:38,280 --> 03:30:41,440 Speaker 4: or nineties, like it it just the way it's age 3660 03:30:41,560 --> 03:30:42,520 Speaker 4: just makes it more funny. 3661 03:30:43,400 --> 03:30:45,280 Speaker 3: But it is also a good movie. 3662 03:30:46,600 --> 03:30:49,879 Speaker 4: And and uh yeah after after this, I mean it's 3663 03:30:50,080 --> 03:30:52,480 Speaker 4: it's kind of like what if like an earthquake or 3664 03:30:52,480 --> 03:30:54,879 Speaker 4: a tornado hits this small town, except this is more 3665 03:30:54,920 --> 03:30:58,200 Speaker 4: like adversarial. It's like this like worm is like like 3666 03:30:58,640 --> 03:31:01,640 Speaker 4: like causing like the towns buildings like cave in because 3667 03:31:01,680 --> 03:31:07,439 Speaker 4: it's like digging underground. And we see we see this fantastic, 3668 03:31:07,800 --> 03:31:11,920 Speaker 4: fantastic prepper character is able to help everybody out because 3669 03:31:11,920 --> 03:31:15,000 Speaker 4: he is he is prepared for such a scenario. 3670 03:31:17,640 --> 03:31:21,240 Speaker 5: How kind of film? Yes, unlike unlike that through schebag 3671 03:31:21,440 --> 03:31:27,320 Speaker 5: and and leave the world behind. Yes, we'll talk about 3672 03:31:27,320 --> 03:31:31,440 Speaker 5: that movie after. Yeah. I mean, the last response I 3673 03:31:31,480 --> 03:31:35,160 Speaker 5: really wanted to cover was despair, pessimism, seeing the worst, 3674 03:31:35,280 --> 03:31:40,440 Speaker 5: expecting the worst, living and utter defeat, weighing down actual 3675 03:31:40,560 --> 03:31:44,320 Speaker 5: efforts with pessimism jumping into my comment section to be 3676 03:31:44,440 --> 03:31:48,720 Speaker 5: more in our fate. I mean, according to those in despair, 3677 03:31:48,720 --> 03:31:51,600 Speaker 5: there's nothing that we can do to affect our future, 3678 03:31:52,760 --> 03:31:57,360 Speaker 5: and in my eyes, those on this dumor pillar just 3679 03:31:57,480 --> 03:32:02,320 Speaker 5: as misguided as those who are hyped up with blind opium. 3680 03:32:03,280 --> 03:32:05,680 Speaker 5: I think it's okay to admit that we don't know 3681 03:32:05,800 --> 03:32:08,360 Speaker 5: what's going to happen. You know, I don't claim to 3682 03:32:08,400 --> 03:32:11,880 Speaker 5: your profit. I don't think anybody should. The IPCC reports, 3683 03:32:11,920 --> 03:32:18,480 Speaker 5: for example, are a consensus of scientists and their understanding 3684 03:32:18,480 --> 03:32:21,480 Speaker 5: of the situation. Some scientists are going to be more 3685 03:32:21,720 --> 03:32:25,160 Speaker 5: conservative in their report in their reporting, others are a 3686 03:32:25,200 --> 03:32:31,000 Speaker 5: bit more catastrophes. But either way, I really don't think 3687 03:32:31,040 --> 03:32:32,600 Speaker 5: we need to get into the weeds of just how 3688 03:32:32,680 --> 03:32:34,800 Speaker 5: bad it is or exactly how it's going to happen, 3689 03:32:35,400 --> 03:32:38,480 Speaker 5: but matters that things need to change some way, somehow. 3690 03:32:39,480 --> 03:32:42,800 Speaker 5: I think it's important to try and understand as much 3691 03:32:42,800 --> 03:32:44,840 Speaker 5: as the situation as you could not to the point 3692 03:32:44,879 --> 03:32:49,640 Speaker 5: of obsession. To take note of how we respond to 3693 03:32:49,720 --> 03:32:51,959 Speaker 5: the issue, To look at the various responses I covered 3694 03:32:52,040 --> 03:32:54,240 Speaker 5: and see if you fit into any of those camps, 3695 03:32:55,360 --> 03:33:00,360 Speaker 5: and to recognize that the worst case scenario is far 3696 03:33:00,640 --> 03:33:04,840 Speaker 5: from inevitable. My advice is ready to prepare for the 3697 03:33:04,959 --> 03:33:09,000 Speaker 5: worst in whatever way you can, and put hope and 3698 03:33:09,560 --> 03:33:15,360 Speaker 5: build for the best. Build community, build connections, build your skills, 3699 03:33:15,520 --> 03:33:22,120 Speaker 5: build your strengths, and push in any way that you 3700 03:33:22,240 --> 03:33:26,200 Speaker 5: can in whatever's fare you find yourself for meaningful change. 3701 03:33:28,120 --> 03:33:34,240 Speaker 5: Because say it with me now, it could happen here. 3702 03:33:35,000 --> 03:33:36,400 Speaker 3: It certainly could. 3703 03:33:37,920 --> 03:33:41,840 Speaker 5: That's it for me. I'm on YouTube andwism, I'm on 3704 03:33:41,959 --> 03:33:46,480 Speaker 5: patureon dot com, slash saint tu. That's it. We'll power 3705 03:33:46,560 --> 03:33:48,800 Speaker 5: to all the people. Peace. 3706 03:33:52,320 --> 03:33:52,480 Speaker 3: Hey. 3707 03:33:52,640 --> 03:33:55,720 Speaker 2: We'll be back Monday with more episodes every week from 3708 03:33:55,760 --> 03:33:57,440 Speaker 2: now until the heat death of the universe. 3709 03:33:58,080 --> 03:34:00,400 Speaker 4: It could happen here as a production of cool Zone Media. 3710 03:34:00,640 --> 03:34:03,280 Speaker 9: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 3711 03:34:03,360 --> 03:34:05,520 Speaker 9: cool Zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the 3712 03:34:05,600 --> 03:34:09,000 Speaker 9: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. 3713 03:34:09,440 --> 03:34:11,560 Speaker 9: You can find sources for It could happen here. Updated 3714 03:34:11,640 --> 03:34:15,640 Speaker 9: monthly at coolzonemedia dot com. Slash Sources thanks for listening.