WEBVTT - Zootopia Exposed! (Part Two) 0:00:15.356 --> 0:00:15.796 Pushkin. 0:00:20.276 --> 0:00:22.836 So I went to see Utopia at three fifteen PM 0:00:22.916 --> 0:00:28.596 on a Friday afternoon. It was me, seven children and 0:00:28.916 --> 0:00:32.956 their associated mothers or nannies, no father's present. I was 0:00:32.996 --> 0:00:35.996 the only I was the only adult male. 0:00:37.916 --> 0:00:38.476 In the theater. 0:00:38.676 --> 0:00:41.676 So I not only was I there as a professional, 0:00:41.756 --> 0:00:44.836 but I have never been so demonstrative about the fact 0:00:44.836 --> 0:00:47.396 that I'm a professional. I took my notebook out of 0:00:47.436 --> 0:00:49.516 my backpack and I was like, I'm not here to 0:00:50.036 --> 0:00:54.876 enjoy the film. Silence children, this is a I'm close reading. 0:00:57.756 --> 0:01:00.916 I sent my colleague ben A. Daph Haffrey, a film 0:01:00.996 --> 0:01:06.436 buff and literary scholar, to see Disney's new blockbuster animated film, 0:01:06.556 --> 0:01:11.516 Zutopia two. I told him it was urgent. First things. First, 0:01:11.796 --> 0:01:13.316 did you enjoy the film? 0:01:13.676 --> 0:01:19.796 I did, I really did. I actually liked Utopia one better. 0:01:20.236 --> 0:01:22.916 But I think they're there. It's a good it's good 0:01:22.916 --> 0:01:23.996 intellectual property. 0:01:24.476 --> 0:01:27.756 Yeah. Now, you so you came in knowing that there 0:01:27.876 --> 0:01:33.636 was this controversy that exists around Zetopia two and why 0:01:33.756 --> 0:01:40.156 the particular plot choices that they pursued were pursued and so, 0:01:40.276 --> 0:01:44.276 and you came to as I understand it, you came 0:01:44.316 --> 0:01:49.596 out of the theater with some really strong ideas about 0:01:49.996 --> 0:01:51.676 why this movie is the way it is. 0:01:51.676 --> 0:01:55.076 Is this correct? Yes, it is correct. 0:01:55.716 --> 0:01:58.276 Ben called me up a few days later, so Utopia 0:01:58.316 --> 0:02:01.276 two was now available online. He told me to pull 0:02:01.316 --> 0:02:04.036 it up. He wanted to show me something that he 0:02:04.116 --> 0:02:06.956 thought was a clue to unlocking the true meaning of 0:02:06.996 --> 0:02:07.436 the film. 0:02:07.916 --> 0:02:12.156 At twenty minutes and ten seconds when. 0:02:12.876 --> 0:02:16.236 Going on right now, the heroes of the Utopia franchise 0:02:16.556 --> 0:02:20.516 are two cops, Judy Hops, a rabbit, and her partner 0:02:20.636 --> 0:02:24.676 Nick Wilde, a fox. In Utopia too. They launch an 0:02:24.716 --> 0:02:30.116 audacious investigation into the Lynxleys, the ruling animal family of 0:02:30.156 --> 0:02:33.596 the city of Zutopia, who live in a giant mansion 0:02:34.036 --> 0:02:35.516 called Lynxley Manor. 0:02:35.916 --> 0:02:38.596 Okay, so twenty minutes and ten seconds, okay, just to 0:02:38.636 --> 0:02:41.756 set the scene, Judy Hops and Nick Wilde, the heroes 0:02:41.756 --> 0:02:46.076 of the movie, are going to the to the Lynsley 0:02:46.116 --> 0:02:50.196 manner because, oh my goodness, it's the zouit tennial. 0:02:50.876 --> 0:02:56.156 Oh my goodness, it's insane. 0:02:56.636 --> 0:02:58.276 You know what I'm you know what I'm gonna say. 0:02:59.076 --> 0:03:00.036 You know what I'm gonna say. 0:03:00.996 --> 0:03:04.236 My name is Malcolm Gladwell. You're listening to revisionist History, 0:03:04.516 --> 0:03:08.516 my podcast about things overlooked and misunderstood. This is the 0:03:08.556 --> 0:03:12.076 second part part of our investigation into the very curious 0:03:12.116 --> 0:03:17.676 mystery behind Zutopia, the Walt Disney Companies insanely successful and 0:03:17.796 --> 0:03:21.436 possibly soon to be two time Oscar winning movie franchise 0:03:21.716 --> 0:03:26.236 about a magical world inhabited entirely by animals. If you 0:03:26.316 --> 0:03:29.196 have not listened to part one of our exploration, you 0:03:29.236 --> 0:03:31.956 should do that before we go on, And for those 0:03:31.996 --> 0:03:34.316 who have, allow me to remind you of where we 0:03:34.356 --> 0:03:38.276 are in our story. Almost twenty years ago, a screenwriter 0:03:38.396 --> 0:03:41.196 named Gary Goldman says he went to Disney with an 0:03:41.196 --> 0:03:45.236 idea for a movie about an animal kingdom named Zutopia, 0:03:46.036 --> 0:03:49.116 wherevery animal was told they could be whatever they wanted 0:03:49.156 --> 0:03:53.996 to be. Disney passed, but then several years later, came 0:03:54.036 --> 0:03:57.076 out with a movie called Zutopia about an animal kingdom 0:03:57.196 --> 0:04:00.276 named Zutopia, where every animal was told they could be 0:04:00.716 --> 0:04:05.636 whatever they wanted to be. Gary Goldman sued and lost 0:04:05.876 --> 0:04:09.316 in a bitter seven year legal battle, whereupon, late in 0:04:09.396 --> 0:04:13.356 twenty twenty five, Disney came out with a sequel called 0:04:13.716 --> 0:04:18.196 Utopia Two and What is Utopia Two? About a snake 0:04:18.316 --> 0:04:23.076 named Gary his family, invented the technology behind z Utopia, 0:04:23.316 --> 0:04:25.516 the weather walls that make it possible for animals from 0:04:25.516 --> 0:04:28.036 all over the world to live together, and who had 0:04:28.036 --> 0:04:32.516 their patents stolen by a family of wealthy Lynxes Lynxes? 0:04:33.356 --> 0:04:38.196 Could the symbolism be clearer stolen by the literal embodiment 0:04:38.356 --> 0:04:42.636 of corporate fatcats. In this episode, we attempt to answer 0:04:42.636 --> 0:04:46.716 the most important question of all in this long, bizarre story. 0:04:47.156 --> 0:04:50.676 Who was behind this cinematic crime, What did they intend 0:04:50.716 --> 0:04:54.596 to say? And what could their motivation possibly have been? 0:04:58.036 --> 0:05:00.916 To start to silence any doubts you may still have 0:05:00.996 --> 0:05:04.756 about the legitimacy of this enterprise, let me now share 0:05:04.796 --> 0:05:07.596 with you what my colleague been found at the twenty 0:05:07.636 --> 0:05:12.276 minute fifteen second point of the movie. It's a shot, 0:05:12.676 --> 0:05:16.116 a brief image looking down at the mention of the 0:05:16.156 --> 0:05:18.956 evil corporate fat Cats from high in the sky. 0:05:20.396 --> 0:05:25.076 The camera is like high above Lynsley Manor, and we 0:05:25.236 --> 0:05:28.436 see the fireworks going off because it and it is 0:05:28.676 --> 0:05:31.836 the Disney logo is the Magic Kingdom logo. 0:05:32.036 --> 0:05:36.236 Ben Every single night for the last two and a 0:05:36.276 --> 0:05:39.916 half years, I have sat in my little study with 0:05:40.076 --> 0:05:42.796 one or two of my daughters and we have seen 0:05:42.836 --> 0:05:46.236 that exact scene before we watch a Disney movie and 0:05:46.316 --> 0:05:46.996 I missed it. 0:05:47.276 --> 0:05:49.276 I missed it? How did I miss it? Right there? 0:05:49.716 --> 0:05:50.996 It's an unbelievable there. 0:05:51.196 --> 0:05:53.676 It is an unbelievable visual quotation. 0:05:53.876 --> 0:05:57.156 It is a exact visual quotation of how every Disney 0:05:57.196 --> 0:06:00.116 film starts with the fireworks over the over the Magic Castle. 0:06:00.156 --> 0:06:03.276 So, just to be clear, what this image is suggesting 0:06:03.596 --> 0:06:07.956 is that Lynxley Manner, the home of the Fat Cats 0:06:08.236 --> 0:06:13.356 who stole thep from Gary to Snake, is essentially the 0:06:13.356 --> 0:06:16.596 Disney Castle. The Fat Cats are in the Disney Castle. 0:06:16.956 --> 0:06:18.476 The Fat Cats are in the Disney Castle. 0:06:19.076 --> 0:06:24.276 Disney. Famously, the Fortune five hundred company, most consumed with 0:06:24.356 --> 0:06:28.836 protecting its association with everything wholesome and good, has done 0:06:28.916 --> 0:06:33.156 something completely out of character. They've made a movie, a 0:06:33.316 --> 0:06:36.836 huge movie, in which the home of evil cats who 0:06:36.916 --> 0:06:40.876 steal ideas from innocent reptiles is presented with exactly the 0:06:40.916 --> 0:06:44.276 same visual language as the iconic Disney Castle. 0:06:44.916 --> 0:06:47.956 Well wait, Malcolm, maybe maybe this is too much. Maybe 0:06:48.076 --> 0:06:51.076 you know they had a party, there's just the fireworks 0:06:51.076 --> 0:06:54.356 display whatever, like it's you know, you could write this 0:06:54.436 --> 0:06:57.836 off if you were a true skeptic. But I would say, 0:06:57.956 --> 0:07:01.436 then we should look at the frame at twenty six 0:07:01.516 --> 0:07:03.476 minutes in forty two seconds. 0:07:03.876 --> 0:07:05.196 So this is after. 0:07:06.796 --> 0:07:09.956 Twenty six forty two Okay, hold on. 0:07:10.436 --> 0:07:14.236 So Gary the Snake has rebuilt himself. 0:07:14.756 --> 0:07:16.756 Ben had me take a look at the moment where 0:07:16.756 --> 0:07:19.596 Gary to Snake has finally gotten a hold of the 0:07:19.596 --> 0:07:22.876 evidence he needs to prove that snakes really invented Utopia, 0:07:23.516 --> 0:07:26.236 the crucial bit of evidence in his case against the 0:07:26.316 --> 0:07:26.876 Lynx lays. 0:07:27.596 --> 0:07:29.396 You can hear the emotion in his voice. 0:07:29.876 --> 0:07:35.796 We are the bad guys they are, and this journal, 0:07:36.516 --> 0:07:39.076 ohs the secret that will prove it. 0:07:40.236 --> 0:07:42.396 I have to prove it. 0:07:46.196 --> 0:07:50.276 I was thinking to myself as this happened. I was like, 0:07:52.036 --> 0:07:54.596 I had seen the fireworks displayed you six minutes earlier, 0:07:54.596 --> 0:07:55.956 and I was like, wow, that really looked like the 0:07:55.956 --> 0:07:59.236 Disney logo. But if it were Dizzy, then surely there 0:07:59.236 --> 0:08:01.996 would be some other sign in here that were meant 0:08:01.996 --> 0:08:05.276 to read this as a parallel to the Magic Castle. 0:08:05.436 --> 0:08:07.556 And so twenty six minutes and forty two seconds, watch 0:08:07.636 --> 0:08:10.196 what happens when they race out of the ballroom and 0:08:10.276 --> 0:08:11.036 through the kitchen. 0:08:11.876 --> 0:08:13.916 Okay, i't watch it right now. The snake goes through 0:08:13.956 --> 0:08:18.036 the kitchen. It's mayhem. They're racing for their lives. She 0:08:18.076 --> 0:08:20.476 follows them down the hallway, going through the kitchen. They 0:08:20.516 --> 0:08:21.676 take the hat off the chef. 0:08:21.836 --> 0:08:24.476 Do you know what that is? That's from Ratitui, a 0:08:24.516 --> 0:08:25.516 famous Disney film. 0:08:25.636 --> 0:08:26.356 Oh my god. 0:08:29.116 --> 0:08:31.716 It goes on. At one point we see a weatherman. 0:08:32.196 --> 0:08:34.196 What's his name, Bob Tiger? 0:08:35.036 --> 0:08:35.436 Get it? 0:08:36.036 --> 0:08:39.356 Bob Iger is the CEO of the Walt Disney Company 0:08:39.996 --> 0:08:42.916 in a movie about the weather in z Utopia. The 0:08:42.956 --> 0:08:46.916 person charged with telling everyone about the weather in Utopia 0:08:47.196 --> 0:08:49.316 is the head of Walt Disney. 0:08:51.036 --> 0:08:54.116 Tomorrow's weather is again everything to. 0:08:54.036 --> 0:08:56.756 Announce, they brought Bob in to voice the character. Of course, 0:08:57.556 --> 0:09:00.516 there's more later in the movie. Judy Hobson, Nick Wilde 0:09:00.596 --> 0:09:04.956 leave the Castle and pass o'asel selling bootleg DVDs of 0:09:05.156 --> 0:09:10.436 Disney films. Surely this is gratuitously self referential. Just listen 0:09:10.636 --> 0:09:11.196 and then you. 0:09:11.276 --> 0:09:14.556 Need I got him sequels, pre quolls requals who. 0:09:14.436 --> 0:09:15.836 Says the industry's going down? 0:09:15.876 --> 0:09:19.276 The two So I think the whole thing is just 0:09:19.396 --> 0:09:22.436 like fuck you Disney And okay, last thing. 0:09:22.476 --> 0:09:23.716 Sorry, I'll stop after this. 0:09:24.076 --> 0:09:29.956 No, don't stop, don't stop. Coming up after the break, 0:09:30.516 --> 0:09:48.396 we invite some other critics to join the party. Before 0:09:48.436 --> 0:09:51.636 we go on, it is important to establish a few 0:09:51.676 --> 0:09:55.916 things first. There is a universe where the obsessive critics 0:09:55.956 --> 0:09:59.476 sees things in a script that do not exist. In 0:09:59.556 --> 0:10:03.516 the nineteen eighty masterpiece The Shining, the director Stanley Kubrick 0:10:03.876 --> 0:10:06.516 has the little boy Danny wearing a sweater decorated with 0:10:06.636 --> 0:10:10.636 a reference to the Apollo eleven moonland And there are 0:10:10.636 --> 0:10:14.396 people on the Internet who see that sweater as freighted 0:10:14.436 --> 0:10:17.876 with significance. I'm quoting now from Redding. 0:10:18.716 --> 0:10:20.956 In the movie The Shining, we see Danny is wearing 0:10:20.956 --> 0:10:24.396 a sweater which has Apollo eleven writing on it. It's 0:10:24.476 --> 0:10:27.516 due to the fact that Stanley Kubrick directed this movie, 0:10:27.716 --> 0:10:30.236 and he was also the guy who directed the fake 0:10:30.316 --> 0:10:30.876 moon landing. 0:10:32.356 --> 0:10:36.596 Maybe or maybe not. Sometimes a sweater is just a sweater. 0:10:37.476 --> 0:10:40.236 On the other hand, speaking of Kubrick, there's a whole 0:10:40.276 --> 0:10:44.276 sequence in Zutopia two that also seems to reference The Shining. 0:10:44.756 --> 0:10:48.796 The villainous Pobert Lynxley grimaces and limps his way through 0:10:48.796 --> 0:10:52.836 a maze behind the castle. In an exact visual quotation 0:10:53.236 --> 0:10:56.916 of the way Jack Nicholson famously grimaces and limps his 0:10:56.996 --> 0:11:00.796 way through a maze in the actual shining. That is 0:11:00.836 --> 0:11:05.636 not a coincidence. There are no coincidences in animated movies. 0:11:06.036 --> 0:11:09.116 They take years to make. Every single frame is drawn 0:11:09.356 --> 0:11:12.916 and plotted and executed according to a plan. My point is, 0:11:13.116 --> 0:11:17.716 if there's a Ratituoei moment Weasel's selling bootlegged Disney DVDs, 0:11:17.996 --> 0:11:21.716 a weather man named Bob Tiger and fireworks exploding over 0:11:21.716 --> 0:11:24.956 the Lynxley manner in exactly the same way that fireworks 0:11:24.956 --> 0:11:29.196 explode over the Disney Castle, the people who made Zeutopia 0:11:29.276 --> 0:11:36.316 two did that for a reason. Okay, second thing, what 0:11:36.636 --> 0:11:40.596 was that reason? It's not a sly dig an inside joke. 0:11:40.916 --> 0:11:45.916 Some wink wink whoever was behind Utopia too, clearly wanted 0:11:45.916 --> 0:11:50.836 to make a statement. Exhibit A. A pivotal scene at the 0:11:50.836 --> 0:11:54.156 one hour and twenty nine minute mark, Judy Hops and 0:11:54.236 --> 0:11:58.116 Nick Wilde have finally apprehended Paubert Lynxley, scion of the 0:11:58.196 --> 0:12:02.556 evil Lynsley family. Gary de Snake wraps his body around Pappard, 0:12:02.956 --> 0:12:07.396 immobilizing him. Poppert is angry, speaking his truth, and then 0:12:07.716 --> 0:12:10.156 Judy Hops silences him. 0:12:10.316 --> 0:12:14.916 No one will believe you over us. We've always been 0:12:14.996 --> 0:12:20.476 better than you and we always will be. Nothing you 0:12:20.716 --> 0:12:26.556 do matters. 0:12:24.196 --> 0:12:30.716 Well, it matters to him now that I think is 0:12:30.876 --> 0:12:33.996 the crucial part. Nothing you do matters. This film is 0:12:34.036 --> 0:12:38.076 not gonna change it. It's not gonna change anything, but 0:12:38.276 --> 0:12:41.836 Disney owns Utopia, but it matters to him. 0:12:42.396 --> 0:12:45.196 Talking about Gary the Snake, You've just pointed me to 0:12:45.236 --> 0:12:47.436 a scene that is, in essence, the climax. 0:12:46.996 --> 0:12:49.036 Of the movie. This is the end of the film. 0:12:49.196 --> 0:12:52.556 The Lynxs have finally been brought to justice. The fat 0:12:52.556 --> 0:12:54.036 cats are going to live in the Magic Kingdom. 0:12:54.076 --> 0:12:55.796 Fat cats are going to live in the Magic Kingdom. 0:12:56.236 --> 0:13:00.796 And our heroes, the Bunny Judy hops and Judy says 0:13:00.836 --> 0:13:03.556 it does matter, and she looks at Gary the Stake 0:13:03.636 --> 0:13:06.636 and says it matters to him. And this is I mean, 0:13:06.676 --> 0:13:09.796 it's I can't believe I missed this. This is screenwriter 0:13:10.716 --> 0:13:16.076 saying to Gary, Gary, I understand what you've been through. 0:13:17.076 --> 0:13:21.236 We took your idea. I can't give you You're never 0:13:21.236 --> 0:13:23.716 going to get recognized in the court of law for 0:13:23.796 --> 0:13:26.916 being the originator of Utopia, but we could at least 0:13:26.916 --> 0:13:30.796 give you this small mode of satisfaction that we understand 0:13:30.796 --> 0:13:33.516 what you went through and we understand your contribution that 0:13:33.556 --> 0:13:35.916 you are you Gary the Snake, and you invent your 0:13:35.916 --> 0:13:36.916 family invented this. 0:13:37.716 --> 0:13:43.076 It's like, it's insane, it's crazy. It's very explicit, it's 0:13:43.196 --> 0:13:44.556 it tracks so perfectly. 0:13:45.716 --> 0:13:48.356 Ben and I talked about this moment with the filmmakers 0:13:48.396 --> 0:13:52.596 britt Marlin and Zoel, but language on my instructions, brittainzol 0:13:52.716 --> 0:13:56.316 dropped everything and went immediately to see Utopia too. 0:13:57.156 --> 0:14:00.076 It's not like they made it subtle, as if someone 0:14:00.116 --> 0:14:03.276 in the writing team knew the score and wanted to 0:14:03.316 --> 0:14:06.476 do it wink to Gary like, hey, I know what 0:14:06.516 --> 0:14:11.396 went down. This is our internal apology, a quiet apology 0:14:11.436 --> 0:14:13.596 to you that only you would understand. 0:14:14.436 --> 0:14:16.716 They made it in a way that like. 0:14:18.356 --> 0:14:22.036 Any part of the audience, his family, the surrounding community 0:14:22.076 --> 0:14:25.556 that knows anything about it, would know that this is 0:14:25.716 --> 0:14:31.156 what the movie is like. It's not quiet, it's it's public. 0:14:31.356 --> 0:14:34.276 It is not a Stroussian reading of the controversy in 0:14:34.316 --> 0:14:38.356 a sense of you know, you know the fame mysteries 0:14:38.396 --> 0:14:44.156 of Leo Strauss, who argue that texts in conflicted times 0:14:44.516 --> 0:14:46.796 have hidden messages, and the goal of the scholar is 0:14:46.836 --> 0:14:50.316 to decode the hidden message. Right the person attacking the 0:14:50.396 --> 0:14:55.516 church in the six fifteenth century would never do a 0:14:55.516 --> 0:14:57.916 real attack. They would they would, they would make it so, 0:14:58.036 --> 0:15:00.596 they would make it subtle. Below they would praise the church. 0:15:00.636 --> 0:15:02.156 But if you rd between the lines, you would see 0:15:02.196 --> 0:15:06.636 this is there's no Straussian reading here available in Sutopia two. 0:15:06.996 --> 0:15:09.676 It is what it is. 0:15:09.196 --> 0:15:09.916 Between the lines. 0:15:09.956 --> 0:15:13.076 It's the lines is literally the lines on the book. 0:15:13.636 --> 0:15:16.996 Yeah yet, and it's not Iranian cinema, which has to 0:15:17.036 --> 0:15:19.036 get through all the censorship. 0:15:19.876 --> 0:15:22.836 So that is an interesting thing about Disney. 0:15:22.916 --> 0:15:25.476 It shows you there's no one. 0:15:25.276 --> 0:15:26.236 At the wheel. 0:15:27.396 --> 0:15:30.716 Like they were able to get this through because they're 0:15:31.996 --> 0:15:34.596 no the powers that be, the Lynxes did not know 0:15:34.636 --> 0:15:35.396 what was happening. 0:15:36.556 --> 0:15:37.116 He's right. 0:15:37.836 --> 0:15:40.476 Before any script is greenlit, it has to be reviewed 0:15:40.476 --> 0:15:43.596 by the studio's legal team, the last stop before the 0:15:43.596 --> 0:15:46.636 wheels start to turn. Is there anything in the script 0:15:46.716 --> 0:15:49.636 that is potentially problematic? Do we have the rights for 0:15:49.676 --> 0:15:52.836 everything that needs rights? Is this bit of dialogue or 0:15:52.916 --> 0:15:56.916 description defamatory? Is this character a little bit too close 0:15:56.956 --> 0:16:01.516 to a real world character? On and on. Someone did 0:16:01.596 --> 0:16:05.076 this for the script for Zutopia too, And for some 0:16:05.236 --> 0:16:08.516 mysterious reason, that person or maybe team of people said, 0:16:09.236 --> 0:16:12.836 all good It almost feels like the author of an 0:16:12.836 --> 0:16:16.556 anti Disney film got an anti Disney film past Disney 0:16:16.636 --> 0:16:20.836 legal in order to make a point about respecting creativity. 0:16:21.516 --> 0:16:25.076 It is a roadmap for true authorship. 0:16:25.916 --> 0:16:29.396 Yeah, I agree, it's an acknowledgement. It's only I think, 0:16:29.396 --> 0:16:33.276 an apology if it's just directly to the person you harmed. 0:16:33.476 --> 0:16:36.036 But when you make something that's not between the lines, 0:16:36.076 --> 0:16:39.956 but the line themselves, that you're talking to the entire community. 0:16:40.796 --> 0:16:44.036 All of us involved in the forensic analysis of Utopia 0:16:44.076 --> 0:16:48.636 two agreed it's the perfect literary crime. The perfect crime 0:16:48.676 --> 0:16:53.036 reading of Zutopia is that there was a quiet insurrection 0:16:53.196 --> 0:16:57.276 in the creative ranks at Disney where they felt that 0:16:57.316 --> 0:17:01.556 the Disney overlords had committed a kind of moral crime 0:17:02.116 --> 0:17:05.636 against this brilliant man, Gary Goldman. They contrived to come 0:17:05.716 --> 0:17:08.796 up with a secret form of revenge in the form 0:17:08.836 --> 0:17:11.396 of two. That was a crime in a sense that 0:17:11.436 --> 0:17:15.236 they were violating their implied contract with Disney. But it's 0:17:15.276 --> 0:17:18.196 a perfect crime because the movie is so good. They 0:17:18.196 --> 0:17:21.276 can never be convicted of any crime. They can't get punished. 0:17:21.236 --> 0:17:24.036 Because the movies have all this money and to punish them. 0:17:24.156 --> 0:17:26.316 So the way to get away with a crime in 0:17:26.356 --> 0:17:28.796 Hollywood is to make a work of art, a work 0:17:29.156 --> 0:17:32.036 a work of great commercial art. And that makes you 0:17:32.756 --> 0:17:37.756 that that makes you completely above the law. It's genius. 0:17:38.116 --> 0:17:41.796 I think that there is there is a strong message 0:17:41.836 --> 0:17:45.196 being sent about Disney and it revolves around authorship and 0:17:45.236 --> 0:17:46.316 a snake named Gary. 0:17:46.476 --> 0:17:48.636 And that's a lot of coincidences. 0:17:50.996 --> 0:17:54.236 And who is this genius who pulled off the perfect 0:17:54.276 --> 0:17:59.396 literary crime after the break our best guess at the culprit. 0:18:18.916 --> 0:18:21.876 Let me warn you this is going to require what 0:18:21.996 --> 0:18:25.636 will seem in the moment like a massive digression, Like 0:18:25.676 --> 0:18:28.956 when there's a huge construction delay on the interstate and 0:18:29.036 --> 0:18:31.916 Google Maps directs you down a side road and then 0:18:32.036 --> 0:18:34.876 another side road and then a farmer's lane in the 0:18:34.876 --> 0:18:37.876 middle of a cornfield, and you're like, wouldn't I have 0:18:37.876 --> 0:18:40.156 been better off just sitting in traffic for two hours? 0:18:40.676 --> 0:18:44.036 And the answer is no, you wouldn't. The digression is 0:18:44.076 --> 0:18:47.676 a digression and not an alternate route, because the whole 0:18:47.716 --> 0:18:50.316 point of the digression is to get you back on 0:18:50.356 --> 0:18:55.276 the interstate. Patience grasshopper, thank you well, thank you for 0:18:55.316 --> 0:18:56.556 doing this. I appreciate it. 0:18:56.556 --> 0:18:58.876 Well, I have no idea what direction we're heading. But 0:18:59.156 --> 0:19:01.556 let's if on our seat belts and we'll go. 0:19:02.676 --> 0:19:05.516 All of this starts with a man named Lester Bush Junior. 0:19:06.316 --> 0:19:09.476 Not the fancy bushes of Texas and Connecticut and sixteen 0:19:09.556 --> 0:19:14.836 hundred Pennsylvania Avenue, the bushes of Iowa. Unfortunately, I wasn't 0:19:14.836 --> 0:19:17.436 able to speak with Lester Bush Junior because he died 0:19:17.476 --> 0:19:20.316 in twenty twenty three. But I tracked down his best 0:19:20.316 --> 0:19:23.796 friend and longtime collaborator, Greg Prince, who told me that 0:19:23.876 --> 0:19:26.836 his friend, Lester was a physician who joined the CIA 0:19:27.116 --> 0:19:30.116 and rose to the position of the agency's medical director. 0:19:31.156 --> 0:19:33.836 Lester was also crucially a Mormon. 0:19:35.356 --> 0:19:40.396 He was in a family whose mother converted to Mormonism, 0:19:40.516 --> 0:19:43.076 and he and his younger brother were brought along at 0:19:43.076 --> 0:19:46.916 the same time his father converted. Many years later, he 0:19:46.996 --> 0:19:52.036 became aware of the discriminatory policy of the church towards blacks, 0:19:53.356 --> 0:19:57.276 was always uneasy about it, never felt that it was 0:19:57.356 --> 0:19:57.956 quite right. 0:19:59.556 --> 0:20:02.156 Up until the late seventies, the Mormon Church had a 0:20:02.196 --> 0:20:05.036 policy that said that black people could not serve as 0:20:05.076 --> 0:20:08.316 priests in the church, which is a big deal because 0:20:08.356 --> 0:20:11.556 the Mormon Church has a model of lay priesthood. Priests 0:20:11.636 --> 0:20:14.516 come directly out of the congregation. And if you have 0:20:14.596 --> 0:20:18.116 a policy that says that black people can't be priests, 0:20:18.636 --> 0:20:22.596 you're effectively saying that black people cannot fully participate in 0:20:22.676 --> 0:20:25.516 the life of the church at all. It meant that 0:20:25.556 --> 0:20:28.516 the church, which was trying to become a worldwide movement, 0:20:28.996 --> 0:20:33.476 couldn't really expand beyond North America and Europe. And why 0:20:33.516 --> 0:20:36.956 did the Mormons have this policy Because it was believed 0:20:37.076 --> 0:20:40.036 that it was part of the divine inspiration given to 0:20:40.036 --> 0:20:43.276 the prophet Joseph Smith when he founded the Mormon Church 0:20:43.716 --> 0:20:45.396 in the early nineteenth century. 0:20:45.996 --> 0:20:48.316 Conventional wisdom all the way up to the top of 0:20:48.396 --> 0:20:51.476 the church was, well, this was a revelation that started 0:20:51.516 --> 0:20:54.236 with Joseph Smith, and we have never allowed blacks into 0:20:54.276 --> 0:20:54.956 our priesthood. 0:20:55.796 --> 0:20:58.796 But while he did his medical training, Lester began to 0:20:58.836 --> 0:21:02.796 dig into the Mormon church archives, spent years reading old 0:21:02.796 --> 0:21:05.476 manuscripts that no one had ever bothered to look at. 0:21:05.796 --> 0:21:08.436 What he found first was, now, that wasn't the case, 0:21:08.516 --> 0:21:12.916 because during the administration of Joseph Smith, the founder of 0:21:12.956 --> 0:21:16.716 the religion, there were well documented cases of several black 0:21:16.796 --> 0:21:18.596 members being ordained to the priesthood. 0:21:19.636 --> 0:21:23.036 Lester's discovery was that the ban on African Americans was 0:21:23.076 --> 0:21:28.556 started by Joseph Smith's successor Bring Him Young. Lester wrote 0:21:28.596 --> 0:21:31.716 up his findings in an academic article in nineteen seventy 0:21:31.756 --> 0:21:34.316 three that rocked the Mormon world. 0:21:34.996 --> 0:21:40.796 Lester's article showed that this wasn't revelation, this wasn't etched 0:21:40.916 --> 0:21:44.676 in concrete doctrine. This was a policy, and it was 0:21:44.716 --> 0:21:48.756 a policy that began with Brigham Young, and it arose 0:21:49.076 --> 0:21:52.236 out of would you believe it that there was racism 0:21:52.276 --> 0:21:54.956 in the United States in the eighteen forties and fifties. 0:21:55.876 --> 0:21:58.276 And here I will admit we are in the middle 0:21:58.316 --> 0:22:02.116 of the cornfield. But trust me the interstate of weights. 0:22:04.196 --> 0:22:08.236 Five years after Lester published his manuscript, The Mormon Church 0:22:08.716 --> 0:22:12.476 Recived ends the ban on African Americans. And it's Lester's 0:22:12.556 --> 0:22:16.796 article that provides the justification for that decision. When you 0:22:16.796 --> 0:22:19.116 look at the history of the Mormon Church, which over 0:22:19.156 --> 0:22:23.676 the past half century has exploded in size, particularly in 0:22:23.716 --> 0:22:28.636 the developed world, everything begins with Lester Bush's stubborn desire 0:22:29.276 --> 0:22:32.516 to get at the truth. But and this is crucial, 0:22:33.156 --> 0:22:36.276 even though Lester Bush changes the course of Mormon history, 0:22:36.956 --> 0:22:40.396 is he recognized as a hero. No, some of the 0:22:40.476 --> 0:22:43.076 leaders of the church fight tooth and nail to block 0:22:43.116 --> 0:22:48.236 publication of his famous essay. He has challenged a powerful institution, 0:22:49.156 --> 0:22:53.316 and powerful institutions do not take those kinds of challenges lightly. 0:22:54.276 --> 0:22:57.676 He paid a prize for it. He was shunned by 0:22:57.716 --> 0:23:01.876 the church. Eventually, he just withdrew from activity in the church, 0:23:02.076 --> 0:23:06.756 as did his three children. His wife remains an active 0:23:06.876 --> 0:23:12.756 church member, but she has her is open. I thought 0:23:12.956 --> 0:23:16.756 that it was the cumulative pain that caused him to withdraw, 0:23:16.996 --> 0:23:20.156 but eventually we were talking about it and he said, no, 0:23:20.356 --> 0:23:24.116 it wasn't that, it said it was just that I 0:23:24.276 --> 0:23:26.876 saw that there was less and less room in the 0:23:26.996 --> 0:23:30.316 church for people who thought the way I did. Yeah, 0:23:30.436 --> 0:23:34.036 that's a sad statement to have to make, but there 0:23:34.076 --> 0:23:34.756 was merit in that. 0:23:37.596 --> 0:23:39.876 Only at the end of his life did the church 0:23:39.916 --> 0:23:43.676 make amends. Lester was invited to give an honorary lecture 0:23:44.196 --> 0:23:48.116 in Salt Lake City, an acknowledgment of his contribution. 0:23:49.396 --> 0:23:54.556 So here I am feeling like Rip van Winkle and 0:23:54.636 --> 0:23:58.996 looking like something from a storage closet and a museum. 0:23:59.156 --> 0:24:02.116 So it's in honor to speak to this symposium, and 0:24:02.436 --> 0:24:05.676 quite a surprise both be asked after so many years 0:24:05.716 --> 0:24:07.716 and that the subject is still active. 0:24:08.316 --> 0:24:11.396 Afterwards, he had private breakfast with an official high in 0:24:11.476 --> 0:24:14.396 the church, a man named Jeff in the Mormon hierarchy, 0:24:14.596 --> 0:24:15.676 a so called apostle. 0:24:16.076 --> 0:24:19.876 And then as we walked out to the underground garage, 0:24:20.676 --> 0:24:23.676 Jeff put his arm around Lester's shoulder and said, Lester, 0:24:23.796 --> 0:24:26.236 I just want you to hear it from me how 0:24:26.316 --> 0:24:28.916 much I appreciate what you have had done for the church. 0:24:29.836 --> 0:24:32.636 So we did have closure eventually. 0:24:36.116 --> 0:24:39.676 Lester Jr. Was a moral warrior, a man who took 0:24:39.676 --> 0:24:44.036 on giants on behalf of truth. Oh and, by the way, 0:24:44.556 --> 0:24:49.316 who was Lester Bush Senior? His father a CPA who 0:24:49.396 --> 0:24:51.676