1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:15,796 Speaker 1: Pushkin. 2 00:00:20,276 --> 00:00:22,836 Speaker 2: So I went to see Utopia at three fifteen PM 3 00:00:22,916 --> 00:00:28,596 Speaker 2: on a Friday afternoon. It was me, seven children and 4 00:00:28,916 --> 00:00:32,956 Speaker 2: their associated mothers or nannies, no father's present. I was 5 00:00:32,996 --> 00:00:35,996 Speaker 2: the only I was the only adult male. 6 00:00:37,916 --> 00:00:38,476 Speaker 1: In the theater. 7 00:00:38,676 --> 00:00:41,676 Speaker 2: So I not only was I there as a professional, 8 00:00:41,756 --> 00:00:44,836 Speaker 2: but I have never been so demonstrative about the fact 9 00:00:44,836 --> 00:00:47,396 Speaker 2: that I'm a professional. I took my notebook out of 10 00:00:47,436 --> 00:00:49,516 Speaker 2: my backpack and I was like, I'm not here to 11 00:00:50,036 --> 00:00:54,876 Speaker 2: enjoy the film. Silence children, this is a I'm close reading. 12 00:00:57,756 --> 00:01:00,916 Speaker 3: I sent my colleague ben A. Daph Haffrey, a film 13 00:01:00,996 --> 00:01:06,436 Speaker 3: buff and literary scholar, to see Disney's new blockbuster animated film, 14 00:01:06,556 --> 00:01:11,516 Speaker 3: Zutopia two. I told him it was urgent. First things. First, 15 00:01:11,796 --> 00:01:13,316 Speaker 3: did you enjoy the film? 16 00:01:13,676 --> 00:01:19,796 Speaker 2: I did, I really did. I actually liked Utopia one better. 17 00:01:20,236 --> 00:01:22,916 Speaker 2: But I think they're there. It's a good it's good 18 00:01:22,916 --> 00:01:23,996 Speaker 2: intellectual property. 19 00:01:24,476 --> 00:01:27,756 Speaker 3: Yeah. Now, you so you came in knowing that there 20 00:01:27,876 --> 00:01:33,636 Speaker 3: was this controversy that exists around Zetopia two and why 21 00:01:33,756 --> 00:01:40,156 Speaker 3: the particular plot choices that they pursued were pursued and so, 22 00:01:40,276 --> 00:01:44,276 Speaker 3: and you came to as I understand it, you came 23 00:01:44,316 --> 00:01:49,596 Speaker 3: out of the theater with some really strong ideas about 24 00:01:49,996 --> 00:01:51,676 Speaker 3: why this movie is the way it is. 25 00:01:51,676 --> 00:01:55,076 Speaker 1: Is this correct? Yes, it is correct. 26 00:01:55,716 --> 00:01:58,276 Speaker 3: Ben called me up a few days later, so Utopia 27 00:01:58,316 --> 00:02:01,276 Speaker 3: two was now available online. He told me to pull 28 00:02:01,316 --> 00:02:04,036 Speaker 3: it up. He wanted to show me something that he 29 00:02:04,116 --> 00:02:06,956 Speaker 3: thought was a clue to unlocking the true meaning of 30 00:02:06,996 --> 00:02:07,436 Speaker 3: the film. 31 00:02:07,916 --> 00:02:12,156 Speaker 1: At twenty minutes and ten seconds when. 32 00:02:12,876 --> 00:02:16,236 Speaker 3: Going on right now, the heroes of the Utopia franchise 33 00:02:16,556 --> 00:02:20,516 Speaker 3: are two cops, Judy Hops, a rabbit, and her partner 34 00:02:20,636 --> 00:02:24,676 Speaker 3: Nick Wilde, a fox. In Utopia too. They launch an 35 00:02:24,716 --> 00:02:30,116 Speaker 3: audacious investigation into the Lynxleys, the ruling animal family of 36 00:02:30,156 --> 00:02:33,596 Speaker 3: the city of Zutopia, who live in a giant mansion 37 00:02:34,036 --> 00:02:35,516 Speaker 3: called Lynxley Manor. 38 00:02:35,916 --> 00:02:38,596 Speaker 2: Okay, so twenty minutes and ten seconds, okay, just to 39 00:02:38,636 --> 00:02:41,756 Speaker 2: set the scene, Judy Hops and Nick Wilde, the heroes 40 00:02:41,756 --> 00:02:46,076 Speaker 2: of the movie, are going to the to the Lynsley 41 00:02:46,116 --> 00:02:50,196 Speaker 2: manner because, oh my goodness, it's the zouit tennial. 42 00:02:50,876 --> 00:02:56,156 Speaker 3: Oh my goodness, it's insane. 43 00:02:56,636 --> 00:02:58,276 Speaker 1: You know what I'm you know what I'm gonna say. 44 00:02:59,076 --> 00:03:00,036 Speaker 1: You know what I'm gonna say. 45 00:03:00,996 --> 00:03:04,236 Speaker 3: My name is Malcolm Gladwell. You're listening to revisionist History, 46 00:03:04,516 --> 00:03:08,516 Speaker 3: my podcast about things overlooked and misunderstood. This is the 47 00:03:08,556 --> 00:03:12,076 Speaker 3: second part part of our investigation into the very curious 48 00:03:12,116 --> 00:03:17,676 Speaker 3: mystery behind Zutopia, the Walt Disney Companies insanely successful and 49 00:03:17,796 --> 00:03:21,436 Speaker 3: possibly soon to be two time Oscar winning movie franchise 50 00:03:21,716 --> 00:03:26,236 Speaker 3: about a magical world inhabited entirely by animals. If you 51 00:03:26,316 --> 00:03:29,196 Speaker 3: have not listened to part one of our exploration, you 52 00:03:29,236 --> 00:03:31,956 Speaker 3: should do that before we go on, And for those 53 00:03:31,996 --> 00:03:34,316 Speaker 3: who have, allow me to remind you of where we 54 00:03:34,356 --> 00:03:38,276 Speaker 3: are in our story. Almost twenty years ago, a screenwriter 55 00:03:38,396 --> 00:03:41,196 Speaker 3: named Gary Goldman says he went to Disney with an 56 00:03:41,196 --> 00:03:45,236 Speaker 3: idea for a movie about an animal kingdom named Zutopia, 57 00:03:46,036 --> 00:03:49,116 Speaker 3: wherevery animal was told they could be whatever they wanted 58 00:03:49,156 --> 00:03:53,996 Speaker 3: to be. Disney passed, but then several years later, came 59 00:03:54,036 --> 00:03:57,076 Speaker 3: out with a movie called Zutopia about an animal kingdom 60 00:03:57,196 --> 00:04:00,276 Speaker 3: named Zutopia, where every animal was told they could be 61 00:04:00,716 --> 00:04:05,636 Speaker 3: whatever they wanted to be. Gary Goldman sued and lost 62 00:04:05,876 --> 00:04:09,316 Speaker 3: in a bitter seven year legal battle, whereupon, late in 63 00:04:09,396 --> 00:04:13,356 Speaker 3: twenty twenty five, Disney came out with a sequel called 64 00:04:13,716 --> 00:04:18,196 Speaker 3: Utopia Two and What is Utopia Two? About a snake 65 00:04:18,316 --> 00:04:23,076 Speaker 3: named Gary his family, invented the technology behind z Utopia, 66 00:04:23,316 --> 00:04:25,516 Speaker 3: the weather walls that make it possible for animals from 67 00:04:25,516 --> 00:04:28,036 Speaker 3: all over the world to live together, and who had 68 00:04:28,036 --> 00:04:32,516 Speaker 3: their patents stolen by a family of wealthy Lynxes Lynxes? 69 00:04:33,356 --> 00:04:38,196 Speaker 3: Could the symbolism be clearer stolen by the literal embodiment 70 00:04:38,356 --> 00:04:42,636 Speaker 3: of corporate fatcats. In this episode, we attempt to answer 71 00:04:42,636 --> 00:04:46,716 Speaker 3: the most important question of all in this long, bizarre story. 72 00:04:47,156 --> 00:04:50,676 Speaker 3: Who was behind this cinematic crime, What did they intend 73 00:04:50,716 --> 00:04:54,596 Speaker 3: to say? And what could their motivation possibly have been? 74 00:04:58,036 --> 00:05:00,916 Speaker 3: To start to silence any doubts you may still have 75 00:05:00,996 --> 00:05:04,756 Speaker 3: about the legitimacy of this enterprise, let me now share 76 00:05:04,796 --> 00:05:07,596 Speaker 3: with you what my colleague been found at the twenty 77 00:05:07,636 --> 00:05:12,276 Speaker 3: minute fifteen second point of the movie. It's a shot, 78 00:05:12,676 --> 00:05:16,116 Speaker 3: a brief image looking down at the mention of the 79 00:05:16,156 --> 00:05:18,956 Speaker 3: evil corporate fat Cats from high in the sky. 80 00:05:20,396 --> 00:05:25,076 Speaker 2: The camera is like high above Lynsley Manor, and we 81 00:05:25,236 --> 00:05:28,436 Speaker 2: see the fireworks going off because it and it is 82 00:05:28,676 --> 00:05:31,836 Speaker 2: the Disney logo is the Magic Kingdom logo. 83 00:05:32,036 --> 00:05:36,236 Speaker 3: Ben Every single night for the last two and a 84 00:05:36,276 --> 00:05:39,916 Speaker 3: half years, I have sat in my little study with 85 00:05:40,076 --> 00:05:42,796 Speaker 3: one or two of my daughters and we have seen 86 00:05:42,836 --> 00:05:46,236 Speaker 3: that exact scene before we watch a Disney movie and 87 00:05:46,316 --> 00:05:46,996 Speaker 3: I missed it. 88 00:05:47,276 --> 00:05:49,276 Speaker 1: I missed it? How did I miss it? Right there? 89 00:05:49,716 --> 00:05:50,996 Speaker 1: It's an unbelievable there. 90 00:05:51,196 --> 00:05:53,676 Speaker 3: It is an unbelievable visual quotation. 91 00:05:53,876 --> 00:05:57,156 Speaker 2: It is a exact visual quotation of how every Disney 92 00:05:57,196 --> 00:06:00,116 Speaker 2: film starts with the fireworks over the over the Magic Castle. 93 00:06:00,156 --> 00:06:03,276 Speaker 3: So, just to be clear, what this image is suggesting 94 00:06:03,596 --> 00:06:07,956 Speaker 3: is that Lynxley Manner, the home of the Fat Cats 95 00:06:08,236 --> 00:06:13,356 Speaker 3: who stole thep from Gary to Snake, is essentially the 96 00:06:13,356 --> 00:06:16,596 Speaker 3: Disney Castle. The Fat Cats are in the Disney Castle. 97 00:06:16,956 --> 00:06:18,476 Speaker 1: The Fat Cats are in the Disney Castle. 98 00:06:19,076 --> 00:06:24,276 Speaker 3: Disney. Famously, the Fortune five hundred company, most consumed with 99 00:06:24,356 --> 00:06:28,836 Speaker 3: protecting its association with everything wholesome and good, has done 100 00:06:28,916 --> 00:06:33,156 Speaker 3: something completely out of character. They've made a movie, a 101 00:06:33,316 --> 00:06:36,836 Speaker 3: huge movie, in which the home of evil cats who 102 00:06:36,916 --> 00:06:40,876 Speaker 3: steal ideas from innocent reptiles is presented with exactly the 103 00:06:40,916 --> 00:06:44,276 Speaker 3: same visual language as the iconic Disney Castle. 104 00:06:44,916 --> 00:06:47,956 Speaker 2: Well wait, Malcolm, maybe maybe this is too much. Maybe 105 00:06:48,076 --> 00:06:51,076 Speaker 2: you know they had a party, there's just the fireworks 106 00:06:51,076 --> 00:06:54,356 Speaker 2: display whatever, like it's you know, you could write this 107 00:06:54,436 --> 00:06:57,836 Speaker 2: off if you were a true skeptic. But I would say, 108 00:06:57,956 --> 00:07:01,436 Speaker 2: then we should look at the frame at twenty six 109 00:07:01,516 --> 00:07:03,476 Speaker 2: minutes in forty two seconds. 110 00:07:03,876 --> 00:07:05,196 Speaker 1: So this is after. 111 00:07:06,796 --> 00:07:09,956 Speaker 3: Twenty six forty two Okay, hold on. 112 00:07:10,436 --> 00:07:14,236 Speaker 2: So Gary the Snake has rebuilt himself. 113 00:07:14,756 --> 00:07:16,756 Speaker 3: Ben had me take a look at the moment where 114 00:07:16,756 --> 00:07:19,596 Speaker 3: Gary to Snake has finally gotten a hold of the 115 00:07:19,596 --> 00:07:22,876 Speaker 3: evidence he needs to prove that snakes really invented Utopia, 116 00:07:23,516 --> 00:07:26,236 Speaker 3: the crucial bit of evidence in his case against the 117 00:07:26,316 --> 00:07:26,876 Speaker 3: Lynx lays. 118 00:07:27,596 --> 00:07:29,396 Speaker 1: You can hear the emotion in his voice. 119 00:07:29,876 --> 00:07:35,796 Speaker 4: We are the bad guys they are, and this journal, 120 00:07:36,516 --> 00:07:39,076 Speaker 4: ohs the secret that will prove it. 121 00:07:40,236 --> 00:07:42,396 Speaker 1: I have to prove it. 122 00:07:46,196 --> 00:07:50,276 Speaker 2: I was thinking to myself as this happened. I was like, 123 00:07:52,036 --> 00:07:54,596 Speaker 2: I had seen the fireworks displayed you six minutes earlier, 124 00:07:54,596 --> 00:07:55,956 Speaker 2: and I was like, wow, that really looked like the 125 00:07:55,956 --> 00:07:59,236 Speaker 2: Disney logo. But if it were Dizzy, then surely there 126 00:07:59,236 --> 00:08:01,996 Speaker 2: would be some other sign in here that were meant 127 00:08:01,996 --> 00:08:05,276 Speaker 2: to read this as a parallel to the Magic Castle. 128 00:08:05,436 --> 00:08:07,556 Speaker 2: And so twenty six minutes and forty two seconds, watch 129 00:08:07,636 --> 00:08:10,196 Speaker 2: what happens when they race out of the ballroom and 130 00:08:10,276 --> 00:08:11,036 Speaker 2: through the kitchen. 131 00:08:11,876 --> 00:08:13,916 Speaker 3: Okay, i't watch it right now. The snake goes through 132 00:08:13,956 --> 00:08:18,036 Speaker 3: the kitchen. It's mayhem. They're racing for their lives. She 133 00:08:18,076 --> 00:08:20,476 Speaker 3: follows them down the hallway, going through the kitchen. They 134 00:08:20,516 --> 00:08:21,676 Speaker 3: take the hat off the chef. 135 00:08:21,836 --> 00:08:24,476 Speaker 2: Do you know what that is? That's from Ratitui, a 136 00:08:24,516 --> 00:08:25,516 Speaker 2: famous Disney film. 137 00:08:25,636 --> 00:08:26,356 Speaker 1: Oh my god. 138 00:08:29,116 --> 00:08:31,716 Speaker 3: It goes on. At one point we see a weatherman. 139 00:08:32,196 --> 00:08:34,196 Speaker 3: What's his name, Bob Tiger? 140 00:08:35,036 --> 00:08:35,436 Speaker 1: Get it? 141 00:08:36,036 --> 00:08:39,356 Speaker 3: Bob Iger is the CEO of the Walt Disney Company 142 00:08:39,996 --> 00:08:42,916 Speaker 3: in a movie about the weather in z Utopia. The 143 00:08:42,956 --> 00:08:46,916 Speaker 3: person charged with telling everyone about the weather in Utopia 144 00:08:47,196 --> 00:08:49,316 Speaker 3: is the head of Walt Disney. 145 00:08:51,036 --> 00:08:54,116 Speaker 1: Tomorrow's weather is again everything to. 146 00:08:54,036 --> 00:08:56,756 Speaker 3: Announce, they brought Bob in to voice the character. Of course, 147 00:08:57,556 --> 00:09:00,516 Speaker 3: there's more later in the movie. Judy Hobson, Nick Wilde 148 00:09:00,596 --> 00:09:04,956 Speaker 3: leave the Castle and pass o'asel selling bootleg DVDs of 149 00:09:05,156 --> 00:09:10,436 Speaker 3: Disney films. Surely this is gratuitously self referential. Just listen 150 00:09:10,636 --> 00:09:11,196 Speaker 3: and then you. 151 00:09:11,276 --> 00:09:14,556 Speaker 5: Need I got him sequels, pre quolls requals who. 152 00:09:14,436 --> 00:09:15,836 Speaker 6: Says the industry's going down? 153 00:09:15,876 --> 00:09:19,276 Speaker 2: The two So I think the whole thing is just 154 00:09:19,396 --> 00:09:22,436 Speaker 2: like fuck you Disney And okay, last thing. 155 00:09:22,476 --> 00:09:23,716 Speaker 1: Sorry, I'll stop after this. 156 00:09:24,076 --> 00:09:29,956 Speaker 3: No, don't stop, don't stop. Coming up after the break, 157 00:09:30,516 --> 00:09:48,396 Speaker 3: we invite some other critics to join the party. Before 158 00:09:48,436 --> 00:09:51,636 Speaker 3: we go on, it is important to establish a few 159 00:09:51,676 --> 00:09:55,916 Speaker 3: things first. There is a universe where the obsessive critics 160 00:09:55,956 --> 00:09:59,476 Speaker 3: sees things in a script that do not exist. In 161 00:09:59,556 --> 00:10:03,516 Speaker 3: the nineteen eighty masterpiece The Shining, the director Stanley Kubrick 162 00:10:03,876 --> 00:10:06,516 Speaker 3: has the little boy Danny wearing a sweater decorated with 163 00:10:06,636 --> 00:10:10,636 Speaker 3: a reference to the Apollo eleven moonland And there are 164 00:10:10,636 --> 00:10:14,396 Speaker 3: people on the Internet who see that sweater as freighted 165 00:10:14,436 --> 00:10:17,876 Speaker 3: with significance. I'm quoting now from Redding. 166 00:10:18,716 --> 00:10:20,956 Speaker 7: In the movie The Shining, we see Danny is wearing 167 00:10:20,956 --> 00:10:24,396 Speaker 7: a sweater which has Apollo eleven writing on it. It's 168 00:10:24,476 --> 00:10:27,516 Speaker 7: due to the fact that Stanley Kubrick directed this movie, 169 00:10:27,716 --> 00:10:30,236 Speaker 7: and he was also the guy who directed the fake 170 00:10:30,316 --> 00:10:30,876 Speaker 7: moon landing. 171 00:10:32,356 --> 00:10:36,596 Speaker 3: Maybe or maybe not. Sometimes a sweater is just a sweater. 172 00:10:37,476 --> 00:10:40,236 Speaker 3: On the other hand, speaking of Kubrick, there's a whole 173 00:10:40,276 --> 00:10:44,276 Speaker 3: sequence in Zutopia two that also seems to reference The Shining. 174 00:10:44,756 --> 00:10:48,796 Speaker 3: The villainous Pobert Lynxley grimaces and limps his way through 175 00:10:48,796 --> 00:10:52,836 Speaker 3: a maze behind the castle. In an exact visual quotation 176 00:10:53,236 --> 00:10:56,916 Speaker 3: of the way Jack Nicholson famously grimaces and limps his 177 00:10:56,996 --> 00:11:00,796 Speaker 3: way through a maze in the actual shining. That is 178 00:11:00,836 --> 00:11:05,636 Speaker 3: not a coincidence. There are no coincidences in animated movies. 179 00:11:06,036 --> 00:11:09,116 Speaker 3: They take years to make. Every single frame is drawn 180 00:11:09,356 --> 00:11:12,916 Speaker 3: and plotted and executed according to a plan. My point is, 181 00:11:13,116 --> 00:11:17,716 Speaker 3: if there's a Ratituoei moment Weasel's selling bootlegged Disney DVDs, 182 00:11:17,996 --> 00:11:21,716 Speaker 3: a weather man named Bob Tiger and fireworks exploding over 183 00:11:21,716 --> 00:11:24,956 Speaker 3: the Lynxley manner in exactly the same way that fireworks 184 00:11:24,956 --> 00:11:29,196 Speaker 3: explode over the Disney Castle, the people who made Zeutopia 185 00:11:29,276 --> 00:11:36,316 Speaker 3: two did that for a reason. Okay, second thing, what 186 00:11:36,636 --> 00:11:40,596 Speaker 3: was that reason? It's not a sly dig an inside joke. 187 00:11:40,916 --> 00:11:45,916 Speaker 3: Some wink wink whoever was behind Utopia too, clearly wanted 188 00:11:45,916 --> 00:11:50,836 Speaker 3: to make a statement. Exhibit A. A pivotal scene at the 189 00:11:50,836 --> 00:11:54,156 Speaker 3: one hour and twenty nine minute mark, Judy Hops and 190 00:11:54,236 --> 00:11:58,116 Speaker 3: Nick Wilde have finally apprehended Paubert Lynxley, scion of the 191 00:11:58,196 --> 00:12:02,556 Speaker 3: evil Lynsley family. Gary de Snake wraps his body around Pappard, 192 00:12:02,956 --> 00:12:07,396 Speaker 3: immobilizing him. Poppert is angry, speaking his truth, and then 193 00:12:07,716 --> 00:12:10,156 Speaker 3: Judy Hops silences him. 194 00:12:10,316 --> 00:12:14,916 Speaker 1: No one will believe you over us. We've always been 195 00:12:14,996 --> 00:12:20,476 Speaker 1: better than you and we always will be. Nothing you 196 00:12:20,716 --> 00:12:26,556 Speaker 1: do matters. 197 00:12:24,196 --> 00:12:30,716 Speaker 2: Well, it matters to him now that I think is 198 00:12:30,876 --> 00:12:33,996 Speaker 2: the crucial part. Nothing you do matters. This film is 199 00:12:34,036 --> 00:12:38,076 Speaker 2: not gonna change it. It's not gonna change anything, but 200 00:12:38,276 --> 00:12:41,836 Speaker 2: Disney owns Utopia, but it matters to him. 201 00:12:42,396 --> 00:12:45,196 Speaker 3: Talking about Gary the Snake, You've just pointed me to 202 00:12:45,236 --> 00:12:47,436 Speaker 3: a scene that is, in essence, the climax. 203 00:12:46,996 --> 00:12:49,036 Speaker 1: Of the movie. This is the end of the film. 204 00:12:49,196 --> 00:12:52,556 Speaker 1: The Lynxs have finally been brought to justice. The fat 205 00:12:52,556 --> 00:12:54,036 Speaker 1: cats are going to live in the Magic Kingdom. 206 00:12:54,076 --> 00:12:55,796 Speaker 3: Fat cats are going to live in the Magic Kingdom. 207 00:12:56,236 --> 00:13:00,796 Speaker 3: And our heroes, the Bunny Judy hops and Judy says 208 00:13:00,836 --> 00:13:03,556 Speaker 3: it does matter, and she looks at Gary the Stake 209 00:13:03,636 --> 00:13:06,636 Speaker 3: and says it matters to him. And this is I mean, 210 00:13:06,676 --> 00:13:09,796 Speaker 3: it's I can't believe I missed this. This is screenwriter 211 00:13:10,716 --> 00:13:16,076 Speaker 3: saying to Gary, Gary, I understand what you've been through. 212 00:13:17,076 --> 00:13:21,236 Speaker 3: We took your idea. I can't give you You're never 213 00:13:21,236 --> 00:13:23,716 Speaker 3: going to get recognized in the court of law for 214 00:13:23,796 --> 00:13:26,916 Speaker 3: being the originator of Utopia, but we could at least 215 00:13:26,916 --> 00:13:30,796 Speaker 3: give you this small mode of satisfaction that we understand 216 00:13:30,796 --> 00:13:33,516 Speaker 3: what you went through and we understand your contribution that 217 00:13:33,556 --> 00:13:35,916 Speaker 3: you are you Gary the Snake, and you invent your 218 00:13:35,916 --> 00:13:36,916 Speaker 3: family invented this. 219 00:13:37,716 --> 00:13:43,076 Speaker 1: It's like, it's insane, it's crazy. It's very explicit, it's 220 00:13:43,196 --> 00:13:44,556 Speaker 1: it tracks so perfectly. 221 00:13:45,716 --> 00:13:48,356 Speaker 3: Ben and I talked about this moment with the filmmakers 222 00:13:48,396 --> 00:13:52,596 Speaker 3: britt Marlin and Zoel, but language on my instructions, brittainzol 223 00:13:52,716 --> 00:13:56,316 Speaker 3: dropped everything and went immediately to see Utopia too. 224 00:13:57,156 --> 00:14:00,076 Speaker 8: It's not like they made it subtle, as if someone 225 00:14:00,116 --> 00:14:03,276 Speaker 8: in the writing team knew the score and wanted to 226 00:14:03,316 --> 00:14:06,476 Speaker 8: do it wink to Gary like, hey, I know what 227 00:14:06,516 --> 00:14:11,396 Speaker 8: went down. This is our internal apology, a quiet apology 228 00:14:11,436 --> 00:14:13,596 Speaker 8: to you that only you would understand. 229 00:14:14,436 --> 00:14:16,716 Speaker 1: They made it in a way that like. 230 00:14:18,356 --> 00:14:22,036 Speaker 8: Any part of the audience, his family, the surrounding community 231 00:14:22,076 --> 00:14:25,556 Speaker 8: that knows anything about it, would know that this is 232 00:14:25,716 --> 00:14:31,156 Speaker 8: what the movie is like. It's not quiet, it's it's public. 233 00:14:31,356 --> 00:14:34,276 Speaker 3: It is not a Stroussian reading of the controversy in 234 00:14:34,316 --> 00:14:38,356 Speaker 3: a sense of you know, you know the fame mysteries 235 00:14:38,396 --> 00:14:44,156 Speaker 3: of Leo Strauss, who argue that texts in conflicted times 236 00:14:44,516 --> 00:14:46,796 Speaker 3: have hidden messages, and the goal of the scholar is 237 00:14:46,836 --> 00:14:50,316 Speaker 3: to decode the hidden message. Right the person attacking the 238 00:14:50,396 --> 00:14:55,516 Speaker 3: church in the six fifteenth century would never do a 239 00:14:55,516 --> 00:14:57,916 Speaker 3: real attack. They would they would, they would make it so, 240 00:14:58,036 --> 00:15:00,596 Speaker 3: they would make it subtle. Below they would praise the church. 241 00:15:00,636 --> 00:15:02,156 Speaker 3: But if you rd between the lines, you would see 242 00:15:02,196 --> 00:15:06,636 Speaker 3: this is there's no Straussian reading here available in Sutopia two. 243 00:15:06,996 --> 00:15:09,676 Speaker 3: It is what it is. 244 00:15:09,196 --> 00:15:09,916 Speaker 8: Between the lines. 245 00:15:09,956 --> 00:15:13,076 Speaker 3: It's the lines is literally the lines on the book. 246 00:15:13,636 --> 00:15:16,996 Speaker 2: Yeah yet, and it's not Iranian cinema, which has to 247 00:15:17,036 --> 00:15:19,036 Speaker 2: get through all the censorship. 248 00:15:19,876 --> 00:15:22,836 Speaker 5: So that is an interesting thing about Disney. 249 00:15:22,916 --> 00:15:25,476 Speaker 1: It shows you there's no one. 250 00:15:25,276 --> 00:15:26,236 Speaker 5: At the wheel. 251 00:15:27,396 --> 00:15:30,716 Speaker 2: Like they were able to get this through because they're 252 00:15:31,996 --> 00:15:34,596 Speaker 2: no the powers that be, the Lynxes did not know 253 00:15:34,636 --> 00:15:35,396 Speaker 2: what was happening. 254 00:15:36,556 --> 00:15:37,116 Speaker 1: He's right. 255 00:15:37,836 --> 00:15:40,476 Speaker 3: Before any script is greenlit, it has to be reviewed 256 00:15:40,476 --> 00:15:43,596 Speaker 3: by the studio's legal team, the last stop before the 257 00:15:43,596 --> 00:15:46,636 Speaker 3: wheels start to turn. Is there anything in the script 258 00:15:46,716 --> 00:15:49,636 Speaker 3: that is potentially problematic? Do we have the rights for 259 00:15:49,676 --> 00:15:52,836 Speaker 3: everything that needs rights? Is this bit of dialogue or 260 00:15:52,916 --> 00:15:56,916 Speaker 3: description defamatory? Is this character a little bit too close 261 00:15:56,956 --> 00:16:01,516 Speaker 3: to a real world character? On and on. Someone did 262 00:16:01,596 --> 00:16:05,076 Speaker 3: this for the script for Zutopia too, And for some 263 00:16:05,236 --> 00:16:08,516 Speaker 3: mysterious reason, that person or maybe team of people said, 264 00:16:09,236 --> 00:16:12,836 Speaker 3: all good It almost feels like the author of an 265 00:16:12,836 --> 00:16:16,556 Speaker 3: anti Disney film got an anti Disney film past Disney 266 00:16:16,636 --> 00:16:20,836 Speaker 3: legal in order to make a point about respecting creativity. 267 00:16:21,516 --> 00:16:25,076 Speaker 1: It is a roadmap for true authorship. 268 00:16:25,916 --> 00:16:29,396 Speaker 4: Yeah, I agree, it's an acknowledgement. It's only I think, 269 00:16:29,396 --> 00:16:33,276 Speaker 4: an apology if it's just directly to the person you harmed. 270 00:16:33,476 --> 00:16:36,036 Speaker 4: But when you make something that's not between the lines, 271 00:16:36,076 --> 00:16:39,956 Speaker 4: but the line themselves, that you're talking to the entire community. 272 00:16:40,796 --> 00:16:44,036 Speaker 3: All of us involved in the forensic analysis of Utopia 273 00:16:44,076 --> 00:16:48,636 Speaker 3: two agreed it's the perfect literary crime. The perfect crime 274 00:16:48,676 --> 00:16:53,036 Speaker 3: reading of Zutopia is that there was a quiet insurrection 275 00:16:53,196 --> 00:16:57,276 Speaker 3: in the creative ranks at Disney where they felt that 276 00:16:57,316 --> 00:17:01,556 Speaker 3: the Disney overlords had committed a kind of moral crime 277 00:17:02,116 --> 00:17:05,636 Speaker 3: against this brilliant man, Gary Goldman. They contrived to come 278 00:17:05,716 --> 00:17:08,796 Speaker 3: up with a secret form of revenge in the form 279 00:17:08,836 --> 00:17:11,396 Speaker 3: of two. That was a crime in a sense that 280 00:17:11,436 --> 00:17:15,236 Speaker 3: they were violating their implied contract with Disney. But it's 281 00:17:15,276 --> 00:17:18,196 Speaker 3: a perfect crime because the movie is so good. They 282 00:17:18,196 --> 00:17:21,276 Speaker 3: can never be convicted of any crime. They can't get punished. 283 00:17:21,236 --> 00:17:24,036 Speaker 1: Because the movies have all this money and to punish them. 284 00:17:24,156 --> 00:17:26,316 Speaker 3: So the way to get away with a crime in 285 00:17:26,356 --> 00:17:28,796 Speaker 3: Hollywood is to make a work of art, a work 286 00:17:29,156 --> 00:17:32,036 Speaker 3: a work of great commercial art. And that makes you 287 00:17:32,756 --> 00:17:37,756 Speaker 3: that that makes you completely above the law. It's genius. 288 00:17:38,116 --> 00:17:41,796 Speaker 2: I think that there is there is a strong message 289 00:17:41,836 --> 00:17:45,196 Speaker 2: being sent about Disney and it revolves around authorship and 290 00:17:45,236 --> 00:17:46,316 Speaker 2: a snake named Gary. 291 00:17:46,476 --> 00:17:48,636 Speaker 1: And that's a lot of coincidences. 292 00:17:50,996 --> 00:17:54,236 Speaker 3: And who is this genius who pulled off the perfect 293 00:17:54,276 --> 00:17:59,396 Speaker 3: literary crime after the break our best guess at the culprit. 294 00:18:18,916 --> 00:18:21,876 Speaker 3: Let me warn you this is going to require what 295 00:18:21,996 --> 00:18:25,636 Speaker 3: will seem in the moment like a massive digression, Like 296 00:18:25,676 --> 00:18:28,956 Speaker 3: when there's a huge construction delay on the interstate and 297 00:18:29,036 --> 00:18:31,916 Speaker 3: Google Maps directs you down a side road and then 298 00:18:32,036 --> 00:18:34,876 Speaker 3: another side road and then a farmer's lane in the 299 00:18:34,876 --> 00:18:37,876 Speaker 3: middle of a cornfield, and you're like, wouldn't I have 300 00:18:37,876 --> 00:18:40,156 Speaker 3: been better off just sitting in traffic for two hours? 301 00:18:40,676 --> 00:18:44,036 Speaker 3: And the answer is no, you wouldn't. The digression is 302 00:18:44,076 --> 00:18:47,676 Speaker 3: a digression and not an alternate route, because the whole 303 00:18:47,716 --> 00:18:50,316 Speaker 3: point of the digression is to get you back on 304 00:18:50,356 --> 00:18:55,276 Speaker 3: the interstate. Patience grasshopper, thank you well, thank you for 305 00:18:55,316 --> 00:18:56,556 Speaker 3: doing this. I appreciate it. 306 00:18:56,556 --> 00:18:58,876 Speaker 5: Well, I have no idea what direction we're heading. But 307 00:18:59,156 --> 00:19:01,556 Speaker 5: let's if on our seat belts and we'll go. 308 00:19:02,676 --> 00:19:05,516 Speaker 3: All of this starts with a man named Lester Bush Junior. 309 00:19:06,316 --> 00:19:09,476 Speaker 3: Not the fancy bushes of Texas and Connecticut and sixteen 310 00:19:09,556 --> 00:19:14,836 Speaker 3: hundred Pennsylvania Avenue, the bushes of Iowa. Unfortunately, I wasn't 311 00:19:14,836 --> 00:19:17,436 Speaker 3: able to speak with Lester Bush Junior because he died 312 00:19:17,476 --> 00:19:20,316 Speaker 3: in twenty twenty three. But I tracked down his best 313 00:19:20,316 --> 00:19:23,796 Speaker 3: friend and longtime collaborator, Greg Prince, who told me that 314 00:19:23,876 --> 00:19:26,836 Speaker 3: his friend, Lester was a physician who joined the CIA 315 00:19:27,116 --> 00:19:30,116 Speaker 3: and rose to the position of the agency's medical director. 316 00:19:31,156 --> 00:19:33,836 Speaker 3: Lester was also crucially a Mormon. 317 00:19:35,356 --> 00:19:40,396 Speaker 5: He was in a family whose mother converted to Mormonism, 318 00:19:40,516 --> 00:19:43,076 Speaker 5: and he and his younger brother were brought along at 319 00:19:43,076 --> 00:19:46,916 Speaker 5: the same time his father converted. Many years later, he 320 00:19:46,996 --> 00:19:52,036 Speaker 5: became aware of the discriminatory policy of the church towards blacks, 321 00:19:53,356 --> 00:19:57,276 Speaker 5: was always uneasy about it, never felt that it was 322 00:19:57,356 --> 00:19:57,956 Speaker 5: quite right. 323 00:19:59,556 --> 00:20:02,156 Speaker 3: Up until the late seventies, the Mormon Church had a 324 00:20:02,196 --> 00:20:05,036 Speaker 3: policy that said that black people could not serve as 325 00:20:05,076 --> 00:20:08,316 Speaker 3: priests in the church, which is a big deal because 326 00:20:08,356 --> 00:20:11,556 Speaker 3: the Mormon Church has a model of lay priesthood. Priests 327 00:20:11,636 --> 00:20:14,516 Speaker 3: come directly out of the congregation. And if you have 328 00:20:14,596 --> 00:20:18,116 Speaker 3: a policy that says that black people can't be priests, 329 00:20:18,636 --> 00:20:22,596 Speaker 3: you're effectively saying that black people cannot fully participate in 330 00:20:22,676 --> 00:20:25,516 Speaker 3: the life of the church at all. It meant that 331 00:20:25,556 --> 00:20:28,516 Speaker 3: the church, which was trying to become a worldwide movement, 332 00:20:28,996 --> 00:20:33,476 Speaker 3: couldn't really expand beyond North America and Europe. And why 333 00:20:33,516 --> 00:20:36,956 Speaker 3: did the Mormons have this policy Because it was believed 334 00:20:37,076 --> 00:20:40,036 Speaker 3: that it was part of the divine inspiration given to 335 00:20:40,036 --> 00:20:43,276 Speaker 3: the prophet Joseph Smith when he founded the Mormon Church 336 00:20:43,716 --> 00:20:45,396 Speaker 3: in the early nineteenth century. 337 00:20:45,996 --> 00:20:48,316 Speaker 5: Conventional wisdom all the way up to the top of 338 00:20:48,396 --> 00:20:51,476 Speaker 5: the church was, well, this was a revelation that started 339 00:20:51,516 --> 00:20:54,236 Speaker 5: with Joseph Smith, and we have never allowed blacks into 340 00:20:54,276 --> 00:20:54,956 Speaker 5: our priesthood. 341 00:20:55,796 --> 00:20:58,796 Speaker 3: But while he did his medical training, Lester began to 342 00:20:58,836 --> 00:21:02,796 Speaker 3: dig into the Mormon church archives, spent years reading old 343 00:21:02,796 --> 00:21:05,476 Speaker 3: manuscripts that no one had ever bothered to look at. 344 00:21:05,796 --> 00:21:08,436 Speaker 5: What he found first was, now, that wasn't the case, 345 00:21:08,516 --> 00:21:12,916 Speaker 5: because during the administration of Joseph Smith, the founder of 346 00:21:12,956 --> 00:21:16,716 Speaker 5: the religion, there were well documented cases of several black 347 00:21:16,796 --> 00:21:18,596 Speaker 5: members being ordained to the priesthood. 348 00:21:19,636 --> 00:21:23,036 Speaker 3: Lester's discovery was that the ban on African Americans was 349 00:21:23,076 --> 00:21:28,556 Speaker 3: started by Joseph Smith's successor Bring Him Young. Lester wrote 350 00:21:28,596 --> 00:21:31,716 Speaker 3: up his findings in an academic article in nineteen seventy 351 00:21:31,756 --> 00:21:34,316 Speaker 3: three that rocked the Mormon world. 352 00:21:34,996 --> 00:21:40,796 Speaker 5: Lester's article showed that this wasn't revelation, this wasn't etched 353 00:21:40,916 --> 00:21:44,676 Speaker 5: in concrete doctrine. This was a policy, and it was 354 00:21:44,716 --> 00:21:48,756 Speaker 5: a policy that began with Brigham Young, and it arose 355 00:21:49,076 --> 00:21:52,236 Speaker 5: out of would you believe it that there was racism 356 00:21:52,276 --> 00:21:54,956 Speaker 5: in the United States in the eighteen forties and fifties. 357 00:21:55,876 --> 00:21:58,276 Speaker 3: And here I will admit we are in the middle 358 00:21:58,316 --> 00:22:02,116 Speaker 3: of the cornfield. But trust me the interstate of weights. 359 00:22:04,196 --> 00:22:08,236 Speaker 3: Five years after Lester published his manuscript, The Mormon Church 360 00:22:08,716 --> 00:22:12,476 Speaker 3: Recived ends the ban on African Americans. And it's Lester's 361 00:22:12,556 --> 00:22:16,796 Speaker 3: article that provides the justification for that decision. When you 362 00:22:16,796 --> 00:22:19,116 Speaker 3: look at the history of the Mormon Church, which over 363 00:22:19,156 --> 00:22:23,676 Speaker 3: the past half century has exploded in size, particularly in 364 00:22:23,716 --> 00:22:28,636 Speaker 3: the developed world, everything begins with Lester Bush's stubborn desire 365 00:22:29,276 --> 00:22:32,516 Speaker 3: to get at the truth. But and this is crucial, 366 00:22:33,156 --> 00:22:36,276 Speaker 3: even though Lester Bush changes the course of Mormon history, 367 00:22:36,956 --> 00:22:40,396 Speaker 3: is he recognized as a hero. No, some of the 368 00:22:40,476 --> 00:22:43,076 Speaker 3: leaders of the church fight tooth and nail to block 369 00:22:43,116 --> 00:22:48,236 Speaker 3: publication of his famous essay. He has challenged a powerful institution, 370 00:22:49,156 --> 00:22:53,316 Speaker 3: and powerful institutions do not take those kinds of challenges lightly. 371 00:22:54,276 --> 00:22:57,676 Speaker 5: He paid a prize for it. He was shunned by 372 00:22:57,716 --> 00:23:01,876 Speaker 5: the church. Eventually, he just withdrew from activity in the church, 373 00:23:02,076 --> 00:23:06,756 Speaker 5: as did his three children. His wife remains an active 374 00:23:06,876 --> 00:23:12,756 Speaker 5: church member, but she has her is open. I thought 375 00:23:12,956 --> 00:23:16,756 Speaker 5: that it was the cumulative pain that caused him to withdraw, 376 00:23:16,996 --> 00:23:20,156 Speaker 5: but eventually we were talking about it and he said, no, 377 00:23:20,356 --> 00:23:24,116 Speaker 5: it wasn't that, it said it was just that I 378 00:23:24,276 --> 00:23:26,876 Speaker 5: saw that there was less and less room in the 379 00:23:26,996 --> 00:23:30,316 Speaker 5: church for people who thought the way I did. Yeah, 380 00:23:30,436 --> 00:23:34,036 Speaker 5: that's a sad statement to have to make, but there 381 00:23:34,076 --> 00:23:34,756 Speaker 5: was merit in that. 382 00:23:37,596 --> 00:23:39,876 Speaker 3: Only at the end of his life did the church 383 00:23:39,916 --> 00:23:43,676 Speaker 3: make amends. Lester was invited to give an honorary lecture 384 00:23:44,196 --> 00:23:48,116 Speaker 3: in Salt Lake City, an acknowledgment of his contribution. 385 00:23:49,396 --> 00:23:54,556 Speaker 9: So here I am feeling like Rip van Winkle and 386 00:23:54,636 --> 00:23:58,996 Speaker 9: looking like something from a storage closet and a museum. 387 00:23:59,156 --> 00:24:02,116 Speaker 9: So it's in honor to speak to this symposium, and 388 00:24:02,436 --> 00:24:05,676 Speaker 9: quite a surprise both be asked after so many years 389 00:24:05,716 --> 00:24:07,716 Speaker 9: and that the subject is still active. 390 00:24:08,316 --> 00:24:11,396 Speaker 3: Afterwards, he had private breakfast with an official high in 391 00:24:11,476 --> 00:24:14,396 Speaker 3: the church, a man named Jeff in the Mormon hierarchy, 392 00:24:14,596 --> 00:24:15,676 Speaker 3: a so called apostle. 393 00:24:16,076 --> 00:24:19,876 Speaker 5: And then as we walked out to the underground garage, 394 00:24:20,676 --> 00:24:23,676 Speaker 5: Jeff put his arm around Lester's shoulder and said, Lester, 395 00:24:23,796 --> 00:24:26,236 Speaker 5: I just want you to hear it from me how 396 00:24:26,316 --> 00:24:28,916 Speaker 5: much I appreciate what you have had done for the church. 397 00:24:29,836 --> 00:24:32,636 Speaker 5: So we did have closure eventually. 398 00:24:36,116 --> 00:24:39,676 Speaker 3: Lester Jr. Was a moral warrior, a man who took 399 00:24:39,676 --> 00:24:44,036 Speaker 3: on giants on behalf of truth. Oh and, by the way, 400 00:24:44,556 --> 00:24:49,316 Speaker 3: who was Lester Bush Senior? His father a CPA who 401 00:24:49,396 --> 00:24:51,676 Speaker 3: was a spy in the Second World War and spent 402 00:24:51,716 --> 00:24:54,636 Speaker 3: the nineteen forties setting up credit unions in the Deep 403 00:24:54,676 --> 00:24:57,276 Speaker 3: South for African Americans who had been locked out of 404 00:24:57,276 --> 00:25:01,876 Speaker 3: the financial system. Oh and Leicester Senior had another son, Larry, 405 00:25:02,596 --> 00:25:05,756 Speaker 3: Lester Junior's brother, who went to Bringham Young University and 406 00:25:05,876 --> 00:25:08,036 Speaker 3: was kicked out for being gay and then moved to 407 00:25:08,036 --> 00:25:12,836 Speaker 3: San Francisco became a gay activist. Can you imagine Thanksgiving 408 00:25:12,876 --> 00:25:16,356 Speaker 3: dinner in the Bush household, Grandpa talks about taking on 409 00:25:16,396 --> 00:25:19,956 Speaker 3: the Nazis, and then Jim Crow wandering the Deep South 410 00:25:19,996 --> 00:25:23,356 Speaker 3: to bring outsiders back into the fold. Uncle Larry talks 411 00:25:23,356 --> 00:25:26,196 Speaker 3: about being cast out of school for the simple fact 412 00:25:26,276 --> 00:25:29,556 Speaker 3: of his sexuality. Dad talks about the pain he knew 413 00:25:29,556 --> 00:25:33,396 Speaker 3: that African Americans felt on account of their exclusion and 414 00:25:33,476 --> 00:25:36,236 Speaker 3: the fight he took up on their behalf the price 415 00:25:36,276 --> 00:25:42,356 Speaker 3: he paid. Stories about the power of a personal redemptive gesture, 416 00:25:43,156 --> 00:25:47,076 Speaker 3: families of narratives, patterns of practice and behavior that define 417 00:25:47,116 --> 00:25:50,436 Speaker 3: who they are. You spend your childhood listening to those stories. 418 00:25:50,836 --> 00:25:54,796 Speaker 3: What do you become? Prince would spend every Sunday night 419 00:25:55,116 --> 00:25:56,276 Speaker 3: with his friend Lester. 420 00:25:56,556 --> 00:26:00,596 Speaker 5: Very good family men had three kids just as a 421 00:26:00,676 --> 00:26:05,276 Speaker 5: sidelight wait for it. His second child and first son, 422 00:26:06,276 --> 00:26:11,156 Speaker 5: is the director of animation for Walt Disney Studios. 423 00:26:12,916 --> 00:26:17,716 Speaker 3: Leicester Bush's eldest son, Jared Bush, runs all of animation 424 00:26:18,236 --> 00:26:21,676 Speaker 3: for the Walt Disney Company and ten guesses what script 425 00:26:21,756 --> 00:26:25,476 Speaker 3: Jared Bush is most famous for writing. He's this guy 426 00:26:25,516 --> 00:26:27,396 Speaker 3: who wrote Zutopia. 427 00:26:26,796 --> 00:26:32,596 Speaker 5: Two Andawana and in content. 428 00:26:33,356 --> 00:26:35,796 Speaker 3: But here this is a question I had though, because 429 00:26:35,916 --> 00:26:37,436 Speaker 3: this is actually what led me into all of this. 430 00:26:37,876 --> 00:26:41,916 Speaker 3: I watched Dutopia Too. And Zotopia Too is a movie 431 00:26:42,516 --> 00:26:48,396 Speaker 3: about how an excluded class of animals. The reptiles had 432 00:26:48,396 --> 00:26:52,756 Speaker 3: been kept out of the world of the animals, and 433 00:26:52,796 --> 00:26:55,636 Speaker 3: the movie is all about bringing those, bringing the reptiles 434 00:26:55,676 --> 00:26:59,636 Speaker 3: back into the fold, bringing the despised snakes back into 435 00:26:59,676 --> 00:27:02,036 Speaker 3: the fold, and honoring them as And I'm wondering, is 436 00:27:02,596 --> 00:27:05,516 Speaker 3: is utopia? Am I correct? In reading? Zutopia too? Is 437 00:27:05,556 --> 00:27:07,596 Speaker 3: a kind of Jared is? 438 00:27:08,076 --> 00:27:08,676 Speaker 1: Is? 439 00:27:08,796 --> 00:27:13,316 Speaker 3: He is he continuing the family intellectual tradition here. 440 00:27:14,476 --> 00:27:17,796 Speaker 5: I haven't talked to him about that, but I think 441 00:27:17,836 --> 00:27:20,556 Speaker 5: you're onto something there. If you go back and look 442 00:27:20,596 --> 00:27:25,636 Speaker 5: at Encanto, you see the same type of thing there. 443 00:27:26,996 --> 00:27:30,356 Speaker 5: Number one, the focus is on extended families, which comes 444 00:27:30,436 --> 00:27:33,596 Speaker 5: right out of his heritage. But the other is that 445 00:27:33,676 --> 00:27:38,076 Speaker 5: the star in it wears glasses, and there had never 446 00:27:38,156 --> 00:27:41,676 Speaker 5: been a star of an animated movie who wore glasses. 447 00:27:42,236 --> 00:27:45,356 Speaker 5: And he said, in fact, when he was given the 448 00:27:45,396 --> 00:27:48,636 Speaker 5: British equivalent of an Academy Award for it, he brought 449 00:27:48,716 --> 00:27:51,716 Speaker 5: the young lady who had sent him the letter, saying, 450 00:27:52,556 --> 00:27:57,276 Speaker 5: why don't you have any animated movies with people wearing glasses? 451 00:27:57,356 --> 00:27:57,716 Speaker 9: Yeah? 452 00:27:57,796 --> 00:28:03,356 Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, yeah, Jared has a very strong moral compass. 453 00:28:03,436 --> 00:28:07,756 Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, because it does seem I mean it fascinates 454 00:28:07,796 --> 00:28:11,836 Speaker 3: me that the father is the one who provides the 455 00:28:11,836 --> 00:28:17,436 Speaker 3: intellectual foundation for bringing a group fully into the excluded group, 456 00:28:17,476 --> 00:28:20,356 Speaker 3: fully into the Mormon Church, and then the son writes 457 00:28:20,356 --> 00:28:23,796 Speaker 3: a movie that's all about bringing an excluded group fully 458 00:28:23,836 --> 00:28:25,036 Speaker 3: into the animal kingdom. 459 00:28:26,076 --> 00:28:30,396 Speaker 5: I think it's a brilliant storyline. I had not considered it. 460 00:28:30,916 --> 00:28:31,476 Speaker 1: Go for it. 461 00:28:32,156 --> 00:28:34,316 Speaker 3: But I did find something in a New York Times 462 00:28:34,436 --> 00:28:37,796 Speaker 3: article that gave me some sense of how he thinks 463 00:28:37,796 --> 00:28:41,036 Speaker 3: about these things. The Peace came out before z Utopia too, 464 00:28:41,476 --> 00:28:43,436 Speaker 3: and in it there was a moment which makes no 465 00:28:43,516 --> 00:28:46,276 Speaker 3: sense unless you were the one sitting at the dinner 466 00:28:46,316 --> 00:28:50,516 Speaker 3: table at the Bush Family Thanksgiving. The reporter wrote, mister 467 00:28:50,556 --> 00:28:54,836 Speaker 3: Bush's emotions sometimes run close to the surface. Mister Bush 468 00:28:54,836 --> 00:28:58,116 Speaker 3: started to tear up, for instance, while talking about the 469 00:28:58,156 --> 00:29:03,196 Speaker 3: social justice subtext in Zotopia two. I think that if 470 00:29:03,276 --> 00:29:07,476 Speaker 3: Larry and Lester Junior Unlester Senior had gone to see 471 00:29:07,556 --> 00:29:13,596 Speaker 3: Zutopia two, they would have teared up as well. It 472 00:29:13,636 --> 00:29:16,636 Speaker 3: was Gary Goldman who made the connection between Jared Bush 473 00:29:16,676 --> 00:29:20,116 Speaker 3: and the greater Bush Family legacy, or rather his wife Judy, 474 00:29:20,396 --> 00:29:25,036 Speaker 3: who he describes fondly as the Internet's proctologist. She did 475 00:29:25,036 --> 00:29:28,596 Speaker 3: the digging unearthed the story of the remarkable bushes, and 476 00:29:28,636 --> 00:29:32,356 Speaker 3: Gary says the revelations gave him peace. He feels he 477 00:29:32,436 --> 00:29:37,476 Speaker 3: understood finally where Gary the Snake came from. So Jared 478 00:29:37,596 --> 00:29:39,396 Speaker 3: is representing the family honor here. 479 00:29:39,876 --> 00:29:41,596 Speaker 6: Yes, that's my interpretation. 480 00:29:41,716 --> 00:29:44,836 Speaker 3: The bushes. The bushes are standing up for the Goldmans. 481 00:29:45,156 --> 00:29:49,356 Speaker 6: That's my interpretation. It makes me feel very good. I 482 00:29:49,356 --> 00:29:51,716 Speaker 6: have to tell you. I mean, so, this is a 483 00:29:51,756 --> 00:29:53,356 Speaker 6: weird thing. I'm in this telling you this story, and 484 00:29:53,356 --> 00:29:55,476 Speaker 6: I feel I've been done wrong in a lot of ways. 485 00:29:55,756 --> 00:30:00,756 Speaker 6: But I feel so close and connected and grateful in 486 00:30:00,796 --> 00:30:04,556 Speaker 6: a certain way to Jared Bush. And in my imagination 487 00:30:05,076 --> 00:30:06,476 Speaker 6: he's a courageous person. 488 00:30:06,636 --> 00:30:07,996 Speaker 3: Have you ever met Jared Bush? 489 00:30:08,156 --> 00:30:08,236 Speaker 7: No? 490 00:30:08,796 --> 00:30:11,596 Speaker 6: Well, I sent him a handwritten letter. 491 00:30:11,636 --> 00:30:12,956 Speaker 3: Oh you sent him a handwritten letter? 492 00:30:14,036 --> 00:30:15,396 Speaker 5: Wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait? 493 00:30:15,436 --> 00:30:16,636 Speaker 3: Where did you send this. 494 00:30:16,676 --> 00:30:20,356 Speaker 6: Letter after I found out that Gary de Snake was 495 00:30:20,396 --> 00:30:20,836 Speaker 6: a good guy? 496 00:30:20,956 --> 00:30:26,236 Speaker 3: Did he respond? No, he can't, he can't because Disney 497 00:30:26,116 --> 00:30:32,316 Speaker 3: they would go nuts. Right Somewhere somewhere Jared is listening, Jared, 498 00:30:32,996 --> 00:30:35,996 Speaker 3: are you out there on behalf of everyone who saws 499 00:30:36,116 --> 00:30:45,596 Speaker 3: Utopia two? Let me join the Goldman family chorus? Well done. 500 00:30:48,116 --> 00:30:51,956 Speaker 3: Revision's history is produced by Nina Bird Lawrence, Lucy Sullivan, 501 00:30:52,236 --> 00:30:55,596 Speaker 3: and ben Ada fh Haffrey. Our editor is Karen Chakerji. 502 00:30:56,076 --> 00:30:59,876 Speaker 3: Fact checking by Sam Russick. Our executive producer is Jacob Smith. 503 00:31:00,196 --> 00:31:03,556 Speaker 3: Engineering by Nina Bird Lawrence, original music by Luis Qarra, 504 00:31:04,196 --> 00:31:19,396 Speaker 3: Sound design and mastering by Marcelo di'elivera. I'm Malcolm Glava