1 00:00:05,200 --> 00:00:07,440 Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha. I'm not going to 2 00:00:07,400 --> 00:00:18,960 Speaker 1: Stephane never told your protection of I Heart Radio, and 3 00:00:19,239 --> 00:00:22,320 Speaker 1: today we are so excited because we get to have 4 00:00:22,600 --> 00:00:24,760 Speaker 1: a true friend of the show. Like I've already claimed 5 00:00:24,760 --> 00:00:26,720 Speaker 1: her as one of my best friends. I said this 6 00:00:26,800 --> 00:00:30,920 Speaker 1: a while ago. Margaret killed Joy to the show. Yeah, 7 00:00:32,560 --> 00:00:35,400 Speaker 1: thanks for having me. I'm trying to do like songs 8 00:00:35,440 --> 00:00:37,680 Speaker 1: and such, and people don't like it, but I still 9 00:00:37,720 --> 00:00:45,479 Speaker 1: do it. It's okay people don't like it. So then 10 00:00:45,520 --> 00:00:47,960 Speaker 1: I got something like, you're actually a musician, so I 11 00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:50,920 Speaker 1: feel like this is better coming from you. But yes, 12 00:00:51,040 --> 00:00:53,960 Speaker 1: we do have the wonderful Margaret killed Joy on our show. 13 00:00:54,840 --> 00:00:59,240 Speaker 1: Can you introduce yourself for our listeners? Sure? My name 14 00:00:59,280 --> 00:01:02,000 Speaker 1: is Margaret Killjoy. I use sheet or they pronounced, and 15 00:01:02,200 --> 00:01:05,880 Speaker 1: I am a podcaster and an author and I guess 16 00:01:05,959 --> 00:01:11,000 Speaker 1: the aforementioned musician. I have another I Heart Radio podcast 17 00:01:11,040 --> 00:01:13,160 Speaker 1: called Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff, where you might 18 00:01:13,160 --> 00:01:17,640 Speaker 1: have heard Samantha talking in uh back in the Utopian 19 00:01:17,680 --> 00:01:20,560 Speaker 1: past before the Fall of Roe V. Wade about what 20 00:01:20,640 --> 00:01:22,560 Speaker 1: might happen after the fall of Roe V. Wade. Yes, 21 00:01:23,160 --> 00:01:24,480 Speaker 1: it was one of those that we had to come 22 00:01:24,480 --> 00:01:26,920 Speaker 1: back very quickly. To be like, all right, we have 23 00:01:27,000 --> 00:01:30,880 Speaker 1: to redo somethings. Yeah, And we knew it going into it. 24 00:01:30,920 --> 00:01:33,800 Speaker 1: We were like, this might sound utopian and outdated by 25 00:01:33,800 --> 00:01:36,800 Speaker 1: the time you hear it, and it was. It was. 26 00:01:37,120 --> 00:01:38,880 Speaker 1: But I loved what you had brought because it was 27 00:01:38,920 --> 00:01:41,479 Speaker 1: such a hopeful turn and even though it was really 28 00:01:41,480 --> 00:01:43,240 Speaker 1: sad to come back to revisit it, but at the 29 00:01:43,240 --> 00:01:46,080 Speaker 1: same time, I was like, at least there's a spotlight, 30 00:01:46,240 --> 00:01:52,080 Speaker 1: like a nice light at the end of that conversation. Yeah, yeah, 31 00:01:52,200 --> 00:01:56,920 Speaker 1: that's true. There is a lot of hope to accidentally 32 00:01:56,960 --> 00:01:58,960 Speaker 1: dive into that. There's a lot of hope for what 33 00:01:59,080 --> 00:02:02,880 Speaker 1: people can do even when things aren't strictly legal. Um, 34 00:02:02,920 --> 00:02:06,120 Speaker 1: there's and we have a lot we've come a long 35 00:02:06,160 --> 00:02:08,480 Speaker 1: way in terms of like what we can do in 36 00:02:08,480 --> 00:02:10,960 Speaker 1: a post Roe v. Wade world than what we had 37 00:02:10,960 --> 00:02:14,600 Speaker 1: access to in a pre Roe v. Wade world. So right, Um, 38 00:02:14,600 --> 00:02:16,680 Speaker 1: And for the listeners who may not know because I've 39 00:02:16,720 --> 00:02:18,720 Speaker 1: mentioned it before, but yes, I got to be a 40 00:02:18,720 --> 00:02:21,400 Speaker 1: guest with Margaret when we talked about the Jain Collective 41 00:02:21,560 --> 00:02:26,440 Speaker 1: and the many people behind I guess the rebelliousness of 42 00:02:26,639 --> 00:02:29,919 Speaker 1: going against the anti abortion people. Um, and what it 43 00:02:29,960 --> 00:02:33,239 Speaker 1: looked like before abortion was legal at that time, which 44 00:02:33,240 --> 00:02:35,680 Speaker 1: we were back to square one. But it was some 45 00:02:35,720 --> 00:02:37,920 Speaker 1: amazing stories and I learned a lot. So if you 46 00:02:37,919 --> 00:02:40,040 Speaker 1: haven't checked that out, you really should go and check 47 00:02:40,080 --> 00:02:42,920 Speaker 1: it out. But we're not necessarily here talking about that, No, 48 00:02:43,040 --> 00:02:46,240 Speaker 1: we're talking about the media. Yeah, you have so many 49 00:02:46,280 --> 00:02:50,040 Speaker 1: titles under your belt, Margaret, and I looked you up 50 00:02:50,120 --> 00:02:52,480 Speaker 1: on the interwebs, which you're everywhere you're ever. I'm like, 51 00:02:52,480 --> 00:02:56,160 Speaker 1: oh my gosh, you's so famous. But it has so 52 00:02:56,160 --> 00:03:02,079 Speaker 1: many titles between the writer, musician, are narcas, activist, podcaster. 53 00:03:02,480 --> 00:03:05,600 Speaker 1: You are out there doing some things and right now 54 00:03:05,840 --> 00:03:09,880 Speaker 1: you're actually not near your home. Correct, that's true. I'm 55 00:03:10,200 --> 00:03:12,840 Speaker 1: on book tour while I'm on pre book tour, and 56 00:03:12,880 --> 00:03:14,960 Speaker 1: I decided to start my book tour on the West coast. 57 00:03:15,320 --> 00:03:16,960 Speaker 1: I live on the East coast, so I drove out 58 00:03:16,960 --> 00:03:18,640 Speaker 1: to the West coast and in a couple of weeks. 59 00:03:18,680 --> 00:03:20,320 Speaker 1: I don't know when this will drop, but I will 60 00:03:20,360 --> 00:03:23,080 Speaker 1: be on book tour starting in September twentye talking about 61 00:03:23,520 --> 00:03:26,840 Speaker 1: my new short story collection book. Can you tell us 62 00:03:26,840 --> 00:03:30,280 Speaker 1: about that? Yeah, I have a book out coming out 63 00:03:30,360 --> 00:03:32,880 Speaker 1: called we Won't be here Tomorrow. And other stories that 64 00:03:32,960 --> 00:03:35,520 Speaker 1: comes out from a K Press, And it's a collection 65 00:03:35,680 --> 00:03:38,960 Speaker 1: of while I've been writing short fiction for a long time, 66 00:03:39,080 --> 00:03:41,480 Speaker 1: and I've been writing it at I guess I would 67 00:03:41,480 --> 00:03:43,760 Speaker 1: say a professional level for a little while now. And 68 00:03:43,800 --> 00:03:45,920 Speaker 1: so this is my first collection of the stories that 69 00:03:45,960 --> 00:03:49,559 Speaker 1: have been published in various magazines and science fiction anthologies 70 00:03:49,600 --> 00:03:52,200 Speaker 1: and things like that, and also some stories that were 71 00:03:52,240 --> 00:03:55,000 Speaker 1: previously only available too. I used to have a personal 72 00:03:55,000 --> 00:03:58,040 Speaker 1: Patreon and I had stories that were only available to 73 00:03:58,160 --> 00:04:01,320 Speaker 1: my patrons. Um, but now they will be available to everyone. 74 00:04:01,400 --> 00:04:05,600 Speaker 1: And I write a lot of queer punk, radical protagonists 75 00:04:05,600 --> 00:04:11,240 Speaker 1: who run around and feed men to mermaids and squat 76 00:04:11,360 --> 00:04:15,720 Speaker 1: buildings and try to stop bad things and and all 77 00:04:15,760 --> 00:04:19,280 Speaker 1: of that living the apocalypse. I don't know. Um, And 78 00:04:19,320 --> 00:04:23,800 Speaker 1: so yeah, so that comes out soon. That sounds great. 79 00:04:27,520 --> 00:04:30,520 Speaker 1: Future book club pick. I know, so we do book clubs, 80 00:04:30,520 --> 00:04:32,799 Speaker 1: So now we're your books. And I know you also 81 00:04:32,880 --> 00:04:35,520 Speaker 1: did horror as well. Am I wrong? Did? I just 82 00:04:35,520 --> 00:04:37,520 Speaker 1: picked that outs aware because we we're a huge fan 83 00:04:37,600 --> 00:04:40,480 Speaker 1: and it's coming to the season. Okay, yeah, No, it's 84 00:04:40,480 --> 00:04:43,719 Speaker 1: funny because I, um, it's kind of by accident that 85 00:04:43,800 --> 00:04:48,240 Speaker 1: I started writing horror because I basically I was like, 86 00:04:48,279 --> 00:04:50,839 Speaker 1: I wrote these novellas. I have this series of two novellas, 87 00:04:50,839 --> 00:04:55,719 Speaker 1: the Daniel Kane series, and basically I was like, oh, okay, 88 00:04:56,000 --> 00:04:58,480 Speaker 1: I'll do this thing set in basically now, but there 89 00:04:58,480 --> 00:05:01,120 Speaker 1: will be demons or magic you And then I'm like, oh, 90 00:05:01,120 --> 00:05:04,240 Speaker 1: and if there's magic, it's it's harror. Because you know, 91 00:05:04,640 --> 00:05:07,840 Speaker 1: most of the time, I think urban fantasy often way 92 00:05:07,880 --> 00:05:09,760 Speaker 1: too much is like and then the elevators are just 93 00:05:09,800 --> 00:05:13,680 Speaker 1: run by magic instead of you know, electricity or whatever, 94 00:05:13,720 --> 00:05:16,000 Speaker 1: and that's not very interesting. I think magic is a 95 00:05:16,000 --> 00:05:18,000 Speaker 1: lot to do with power, and I think that when 96 00:05:18,040 --> 00:05:21,479 Speaker 1: you introduce incredibly skewed power dynamics into the real world, 97 00:05:21,480 --> 00:05:24,839 Speaker 1: you end up with things that are horrific. And so 98 00:05:24,920 --> 00:05:27,040 Speaker 1: I didn't set out to write the first book is 99 00:05:27,080 --> 00:05:29,400 Speaker 1: called The Lambole Slaughter of the Lion, which I suppose 100 00:05:29,480 --> 00:05:32,520 Speaker 1: does sound like a title of a horror thing, but 101 00:05:32,640 --> 00:05:34,080 Speaker 1: I actually just set it out to be like kind 102 00:05:34,120 --> 00:05:36,479 Speaker 1: of adventure. And then I was like and the publisher 103 00:05:36,600 --> 00:05:39,160 Speaker 1: was like, this is this is hard, and I was like, okay, 104 00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:43,120 Speaker 1: I guess that makes sense. I'm very um squeamish, so 105 00:05:43,720 --> 00:05:46,400 Speaker 1: and uh, you know, I I used to live alone 106 00:05:46,400 --> 00:05:49,680 Speaker 1: in a van, and then before that, and then after that, 107 00:05:49,720 --> 00:05:51,640 Speaker 1: I lived alone in a cabin in the woods, and 108 00:05:51,680 --> 00:05:53,680 Speaker 1: all of this stuff. So I avoided hard for a 109 00:05:53,760 --> 00:05:59,520 Speaker 1: very long time because it didn't fit my lifestyle. And 110 00:05:59,600 --> 00:06:01,359 Speaker 1: so I can read it and I can write it, 111 00:06:01,400 --> 00:06:05,520 Speaker 1: although I've also given myself nightmares with my own right before. 112 00:06:05,680 --> 00:06:07,520 Speaker 1: Oh that's a testament right there. If you can give 113 00:06:07,560 --> 00:06:11,560 Speaker 1: yourself nightmares with your writing in a good way, even 114 00:06:11,600 --> 00:06:18,520 Speaker 1: you know you're doing it right. Yeah, yes, well that's awesome. Congratulations, 115 00:06:18,520 --> 00:06:21,920 Speaker 1: because writing a book is no no small thing. Yes, 116 00:06:22,200 --> 00:06:26,000 Speaker 1: that's true, Thank you, thank You've done it multiple times, 117 00:06:27,279 --> 00:06:29,880 Speaker 1: and sometimes they get slightly longer than the other ones. 118 00:06:30,160 --> 00:06:32,479 Speaker 1: Actually the longest books I've ever written. I can't I'm 119 00:06:32,920 --> 00:06:35,520 Speaker 1: legally not allowed to say that I wrote. Because there 120 00:06:35,520 --> 00:06:39,400 Speaker 1: are romance novels I ghost wrote for a while. I 121 00:06:39,400 --> 00:06:44,240 Speaker 1: made my living ghostwriting trashy heterosexual romance novels um And 122 00:06:44,279 --> 00:06:46,320 Speaker 1: it was like, right after I came out, they were like, 123 00:06:46,320 --> 00:06:49,440 Speaker 1: can you write this male protagonist stuff? That is fascinating. 124 00:06:49,760 --> 00:06:52,120 Speaker 1: I know. At first I was like, it's kind of annoyed. 125 00:06:52,200 --> 00:06:55,000 Speaker 1: I just came out, But then I was like, well, 126 00:06:55,040 --> 00:06:57,880 Speaker 1: it kind of makes sense. Because male protagonist romance novels 127 00:06:57,920 --> 00:07:01,880 Speaker 1: are still written for a woman audience, you know. And 128 00:07:01,920 --> 00:07:04,680 Speaker 1: so I'm like, Okay, I think I can straddle this 129 00:07:04,760 --> 00:07:08,520 Speaker 1: divide better than some other people. Yeah. Absolutely, you it's 130 00:07:08,600 --> 00:07:10,760 Speaker 1: very obvious. And we've talked about this before and we're 131 00:07:10,760 --> 00:07:13,760 Speaker 1: going off subject, but before we go back to the subject. 132 00:07:13,760 --> 00:07:16,360 Speaker 1: But how often times when you see romance and it 133 00:07:16,400 --> 00:07:19,040 Speaker 1: has specific language, you're like, this is definitely a woman 134 00:07:19,080 --> 00:07:23,640 Speaker 1: who wrote this, or someone who are understands that gender 135 00:07:23,800 --> 00:07:26,600 Speaker 1: level of this is a male gaze, this is a 136 00:07:26,640 --> 00:07:28,360 Speaker 1: female gaze. Especially when it comes to a head of 137 00:07:28,400 --> 00:07:32,080 Speaker 1: normative conversations, there's very big differences, and so it seems 138 00:07:32,200 --> 00:07:35,680 Speaker 1: very obvious, like someone understands. Someone really understands what we're 139 00:07:35,720 --> 00:07:41,640 Speaker 1: talking about here, and it's not your sismel dude doing Yeah, 140 00:07:41,640 --> 00:07:43,520 Speaker 1: Which is why I think that the like the Nicholas 141 00:07:43,560 --> 00:07:45,960 Speaker 1: Sparks is of the world and stuff are so successful 142 00:07:46,080 --> 00:07:50,160 Speaker 1: is because if you if you kind of figure out 143 00:07:50,200 --> 00:07:52,160 Speaker 1: how to do that while still being like a man 144 00:07:52,320 --> 00:07:53,840 Speaker 1: or presenting as a man or I don't know anything, 145 00:07:53,880 --> 00:07:56,800 Speaker 1: but Nicholas Sparks as a person, you know, Um, I 146 00:07:56,840 --> 00:07:59,320 Speaker 1: don't know whether he's goes written or not, Um, I 147 00:07:59,360 --> 00:08:06,720 Speaker 1: have my sister, but controversy. But but you know, if 148 00:08:06,760 --> 00:08:08,800 Speaker 1: you can, if you can tap into that, it's a 149 00:08:09,640 --> 00:08:11,360 Speaker 1: it's a powerful mark. I mean that's why I got 150 00:08:11,360 --> 00:08:13,720 Speaker 1: all right, it was right. I didn't go straight in 151 00:08:13,800 --> 00:08:22,880 Speaker 1: Nicolas Sparks saying you heard it here first, just kidding, 152 00:08:26,160 --> 00:08:28,880 Speaker 1: but yeah, coming back to what we're talking about, and honestly, 153 00:08:28,920 --> 00:08:31,640 Speaker 1: this kind of all links because this is kind of 154 00:08:31,680 --> 00:08:35,560 Speaker 1: how we look at different entertainment that seems just so blase. 155 00:08:35,720 --> 00:08:38,719 Speaker 1: And we've talked about romance and how it does, how 156 00:08:38,760 --> 00:08:42,720 Speaker 1: it is affected by gender stereotypes or those who have 157 00:08:42,800 --> 00:08:46,280 Speaker 1: a bias, what is placed by misogyny, Like our understanding 158 00:08:46,440 --> 00:08:49,679 Speaker 1: of romance is laid down by a foundation of misogynistic 159 00:08:49,720 --> 00:08:53,240 Speaker 1: ideals based by the patriarchy. Like this is about the power. 160 00:08:53,320 --> 00:08:56,280 Speaker 1: And I know again people can back you're reaching, but 161 00:08:56,320 --> 00:09:00,200 Speaker 1: we talked about how this really does affect uh, the 162 00:09:00,240 --> 00:09:03,760 Speaker 1: society at large, and this is kind of your forte. 163 00:09:03,920 --> 00:09:07,520 Speaker 1: You've come under this conversation. You have identified as a 164 00:09:07,600 --> 00:09:10,959 Speaker 1: feminist for a long time now, Um, I believe before 165 00:09:11,000 --> 00:09:13,800 Speaker 1: you came out you were already Yeah, feminism is real, 166 00:09:14,240 --> 00:09:17,280 Speaker 1: is effective. Can you kind of talk about your journey 167 00:09:17,440 --> 00:09:21,079 Speaker 1: with feminism. Okay, but can I tangent to talk about 168 00:09:21,200 --> 00:09:24,920 Speaker 1: romance a little bit more and I'll tie it back together. Yeah, 169 00:09:25,400 --> 00:09:28,199 Speaker 1: when you're talking about the tropes and the stereotypes that 170 00:09:28,360 --> 00:09:31,760 Speaker 1: bleed into it. Um, Since I wrote for someone else, 171 00:09:32,200 --> 00:09:35,320 Speaker 1: they told me these rules, and so I can And 172 00:09:35,320 --> 00:09:37,080 Speaker 1: I don't know whether they're like secret or not. I 173 00:09:37,080 --> 00:09:38,720 Speaker 1: mean I can. I know they're not in my n DA. 174 00:09:38,720 --> 00:09:43,040 Speaker 1: I know I can say them. Um. But one, the 175 00:09:43,040 --> 00:09:45,800 Speaker 1: protagonist has to be over six ft tall. I was 176 00:09:45,840 --> 00:09:48,760 Speaker 1: told to write an average sized professional football player, so 177 00:09:48,800 --> 00:09:51,280 Speaker 1: he was five ft ten and they were like, no, 178 00:09:51,400 --> 00:09:54,120 Speaker 1: he has to be at least six ft tall. Um. 179 00:09:54,160 --> 00:09:59,120 Speaker 1: He has to be dominant in every sexual situation. And 180 00:09:59,320 --> 00:10:02,240 Speaker 1: he also um, which was awkward and one of the 181 00:10:02,280 --> 00:10:05,200 Speaker 1: ones I wrote because he was injured, which actually was 182 00:10:05,280 --> 00:10:07,960 Speaker 1: kind of fun to write. Did he calls himself more 183 00:10:08,000 --> 00:10:10,520 Speaker 1: injury because he had to be dominant no matter, because 184 00:10:12,200 --> 00:10:14,000 Speaker 1: I don't know the age of your all his usual audience, 185 00:10:14,040 --> 00:10:23,400 Speaker 1: but he managed to become dominant verbally. And but uh, 186 00:10:23,400 --> 00:10:24,920 Speaker 1: and there were just like so many of these weird 187 00:10:25,080 --> 00:10:27,360 Speaker 1: rules and like, and some of them actually really annoyed me, right, 188 00:10:27,400 --> 00:10:29,920 Speaker 1: because you know, I wrote, um, you know, in one 189 00:10:29,920 --> 00:10:33,400 Speaker 1: of these books, he's he's dating um a mom, right, 190 00:10:33,480 --> 00:10:35,680 Speaker 1: And I wrote that he was like into her stretch 191 00:10:35,720 --> 00:10:38,040 Speaker 1: marks and they were like no, no, no, no, she 192 00:10:38,040 --> 00:10:42,240 Speaker 1: doesn't have stretch marks. And I'm like, audience, right. I 193 00:10:42,320 --> 00:10:45,160 Speaker 1: thought the point of this was to make these like 194 00:10:46,040 --> 00:10:49,840 Speaker 1: middle aged moms feel really good, you know, And so 195 00:10:49,840 --> 00:10:52,319 Speaker 1: so that got edited out, and there's all these things 196 00:10:52,360 --> 00:10:55,079 Speaker 1: like that, and then it gets into like real specific 197 00:10:55,120 --> 00:10:58,240 Speaker 1: stuff around like the way that you described like the 198 00:10:58,280 --> 00:11:00,680 Speaker 1: bad woman as the following sexual acts and the good 199 00:11:00,679 --> 00:11:05,360 Speaker 1: woman is the following guy. It's it's real. It's in 200 00:11:05,400 --> 00:11:07,439 Speaker 1: some ways, I feel dirtier about having written that than 201 00:11:07,520 --> 00:11:13,160 Speaker 1: like anything else I've done. Um, but I needed the money, um, 202 00:11:13,200 --> 00:11:15,280 Speaker 1: and I like tried my hardest to make them passively 203 00:11:15,360 --> 00:11:19,600 Speaker 1: feminist and possibly you know, like um like right, And 204 00:11:20,080 --> 00:11:22,760 Speaker 1: they were like, weren't gay characters in the outlines they 205 00:11:22,800 --> 00:11:24,240 Speaker 1: give me? And I'd be like, whatever, you can have 206 00:11:24,240 --> 00:11:25,800 Speaker 1: a gay best friend, I don't care, you know, And 207 00:11:25,920 --> 00:11:27,480 Speaker 1: I'm like, oh my god, I'm at the point where 208 00:11:27,520 --> 00:11:29,720 Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, gay best friend. That's edgy of me. 209 00:11:29,760 --> 00:11:33,920 Speaker 1: And I'm like, I think I understand nineties writers better now. 210 00:11:34,040 --> 00:11:36,840 Speaker 1: You know, is the best that they were like allowed 211 00:11:36,880 --> 00:11:54,080 Speaker 1: to do. Okay, your question was about my journey into Yeah, 212 00:11:54,080 --> 00:11:56,400 Speaker 1: I'm sorry. Um, I was really excited because I don't 213 00:11:56,440 --> 00:11:59,160 Speaker 1: get to talked about romance novels much. We can do 214 00:11:59,200 --> 00:12:01,240 Speaker 1: a whole second because, like I said, we did. I 215 00:12:01,240 --> 00:12:03,319 Speaker 1: think we did a two parter because we were so 216 00:12:04,440 --> 00:12:06,240 Speaker 1: I want to go back and listen to that because 217 00:12:06,240 --> 00:12:07,679 Speaker 1: I might have also just told you all things you 218 00:12:07,679 --> 00:12:10,880 Speaker 1: already know. Well, you went to a whole different we 219 00:12:10,920 --> 00:12:14,480 Speaker 1: went down a whole different route. Okay. Sometimes I think 220 00:12:14,480 --> 00:12:18,000 Speaker 1: about trying to write some really intentionally now, but life 221 00:12:18,000 --> 00:12:22,440 Speaker 1: is very short. So uh, you know, I grew up 222 00:12:22,480 --> 00:12:25,160 Speaker 1: being told I was a boy, right, And I have 223 00:12:25,200 --> 00:12:27,200 Speaker 1: these early memories of I wish I was a girl. 224 00:12:27,880 --> 00:12:30,920 Speaker 1: But all of the early presentations I saw I grew 225 00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:33,360 Speaker 1: up in the eighties and nineties, and all of the 226 00:12:33,360 --> 00:12:37,400 Speaker 1: early presentations of trans women I saw were very monstrous, right. Um. 227 00:12:37,440 --> 00:12:40,280 Speaker 1: They were the butt of jokes, or they were to 228 00:12:40,280 --> 00:12:43,839 Speaker 1: be pitied, or they were like they had destroyed themselves 229 00:12:43,920 --> 00:12:46,080 Speaker 1: or you know, and I just I have these very 230 00:12:46,080 --> 00:12:48,280 Speaker 1: early memories of being like I wish I was a girl, 231 00:12:48,320 --> 00:12:51,240 Speaker 1: but I cannot become a girl, I cannot become a 232 00:12:51,280 --> 00:12:53,560 Speaker 1: trans woman, that is not is better to be a 233 00:12:53,600 --> 00:12:57,200 Speaker 1: boy than to be one of these pitable creatures. And 234 00:12:58,040 --> 00:12:59,680 Speaker 1: you know, and I held onto that for a very 235 00:12:59,679 --> 00:13:02,199 Speaker 1: long time time, and it was very confusing, right because 236 00:13:02,200 --> 00:13:06,360 Speaker 1: I kept um dating gay girls and we would all 237 00:13:06,400 --> 00:13:09,719 Speaker 1: be confused, you know, we'd be like, why am I 238 00:13:09,720 --> 00:13:11,319 Speaker 1: attracted to you and be like, I don't know. I 239 00:13:12,040 --> 00:13:15,839 Speaker 1: honestly couldn't tell you. And you know, and it's kind 240 00:13:15,840 --> 00:13:18,040 Speaker 1: of this like thing I've talked to other trans women 241 00:13:18,040 --> 00:13:20,920 Speaker 1: and other trans folks about this, where like kind of 242 00:13:20,960 --> 00:13:23,880 Speaker 1: like on some subconscious level, people know this when they 243 00:13:23,920 --> 00:13:26,240 Speaker 1: even don't know this, you know, and it's not just 244 00:13:26,280 --> 00:13:28,559 Speaker 1: about like who I would date or whatever, although it 245 00:13:28,640 --> 00:13:30,400 Speaker 1: also be you go the other way. And I did 246 00:13:30,520 --> 00:13:34,480 Speaker 1: very confused straight girls who are like, what, this doesn't 247 00:13:35,360 --> 00:13:39,320 Speaker 1: work right? And but I got and I also got 248 00:13:39,360 --> 00:13:43,000 Speaker 1: really into LGBT stuff as my first politics. You know. 249 00:13:43,040 --> 00:13:47,000 Speaker 1: I joined the Gay Straight Alliance UH of Maryland when 250 00:13:47,040 --> 00:13:49,080 Speaker 1: I when I grew up. And and actually, one thing 251 00:13:49,120 --> 00:13:50,719 Speaker 1: I think that people don't realize is that the gay 252 00:13:50,720 --> 00:13:52,679 Speaker 1: straight Alliances of the nineties, the reason they were gay 253 00:13:52,679 --> 00:13:56,079 Speaker 1: straight alliances was plausible deniability. Because if you don't want 254 00:13:56,080 --> 00:13:59,920 Speaker 1: to come out, you can still you know, join organization. 255 00:14:00,720 --> 00:14:03,240 Speaker 1: And the way that we started our Gay Straight Alliance 256 00:14:03,240 --> 00:14:04,920 Speaker 1: and my school was really funny. I had these two 257 00:14:05,320 --> 00:14:07,480 Speaker 1: there were these two teachers who in retrospect were very 258 00:14:07,520 --> 00:14:11,240 Speaker 1: obviously lesbians, um, not dating each other, but you know, 259 00:14:11,240 --> 00:14:13,160 Speaker 1: one of them had a hyphenated last name, and one 260 00:14:13,160 --> 00:14:16,319 Speaker 1: of them was the super butch gym teacher. And they 261 00:14:16,400 --> 00:14:19,080 Speaker 1: just kind of cornered me in the hallway one day 262 00:14:19,320 --> 00:14:21,160 Speaker 1: before school started, and they were like, did you know 263 00:14:21,200 --> 00:14:23,640 Speaker 1: that teachers aren't allowed to start student groups? And I 264 00:14:23,720 --> 00:14:27,400 Speaker 1: was like huh. And they were like, here's a clipboard 265 00:14:27,600 --> 00:14:30,120 Speaker 1: with a forum that's already filled out to start a 266 00:14:30,120 --> 00:14:32,240 Speaker 1: gay straight alliance. Do you want to start a gay 267 00:14:32,280 --> 00:14:34,760 Speaker 1: straight Alliance? And I was like I do, I do 268 00:14:34,880 --> 00:14:38,080 Speaker 1: want to start a gay straight alliance because they knew 269 00:14:38,080 --> 00:14:40,840 Speaker 1: that I was involved in regional Gay Straight Alliance politics 270 00:14:41,440 --> 00:14:43,960 Speaker 1: and and no one was out in our gay Straight Alliance, 271 00:14:44,000 --> 00:14:47,840 Speaker 1: and in retrospect, we were all almost all queer and 272 00:14:47,920 --> 00:14:55,560 Speaker 1: the random straight guys very actively politically engaged in leftist politics. Now, um, 273 00:14:55,600 --> 00:14:59,040 Speaker 1: so so yeah, I kind of you know, I was like, Okay, well, 274 00:14:59,040 --> 00:15:01,120 Speaker 1: I'm really interested in, and as my oldest sister is 275 00:15:01,160 --> 00:15:06,320 Speaker 1: a very active feminist who currently does clinic escorting, um, 276 00:15:06,400 --> 00:15:08,720 Speaker 1: and you know, it's kind of a hero around a 277 00:15:08,720 --> 00:15:12,600 Speaker 1: lot of that stuff still, and so it was always 278 00:15:12,640 --> 00:15:15,680 Speaker 1: something I was interested in, and and I always has 279 00:15:15,720 --> 00:15:19,160 Speaker 1: this very ally position, even on some level, I was like, well, 280 00:15:19,160 --> 00:15:22,280 Speaker 1: what is what's going on here? Like why why do 281 00:15:22,320 --> 00:15:24,480 Speaker 1: all I care about is like women's issues and gay issues? 282 00:15:24,600 --> 00:15:28,680 Speaker 1: You know. And then slowly the category of what counts 283 00:15:28,720 --> 00:15:33,760 Speaker 1: as trans started to expand, um in that people who 284 00:15:33,800 --> 00:15:36,480 Speaker 1: don't necessarily medically transition, or if they do, like quote 285 00:15:36,480 --> 00:15:39,960 Speaker 1: medically transition, it's you know, not to necessarily the same degree. 286 00:15:40,000 --> 00:15:42,680 Speaker 1: It's like it's no longer like you become a woman 287 00:15:42,760 --> 00:15:45,800 Speaker 1: when you like undergo surgery, right, you know, Um, I 288 00:15:45,960 --> 00:15:48,160 Speaker 1: rarely see people talk about being like, oh I'm pre 289 00:15:48,320 --> 00:15:51,600 Speaker 1: op M to F or whatever. That is terminology that 290 00:15:51,840 --> 00:15:53,920 Speaker 1: I'm not trying to shame anyone who uses any terminology. 291 00:15:53,960 --> 00:15:56,680 Speaker 1: I don't care, but it is like terminology that no 292 00:15:56,720 --> 00:15:59,720 Speaker 1: longer seems to be the dominant discourse around it. And 293 00:16:00,600 --> 00:16:02,840 Speaker 1: you know, and and the more I came to understand this, 294 00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:06,360 Speaker 1: this work that that feminism, feminism has done, for a 295 00:16:06,440 --> 00:16:09,320 Speaker 1: very long time to draw the distinction between sex and 296 00:16:09,360 --> 00:16:13,800 Speaker 1: gender and use that to understand both sex and gender 297 00:16:13,840 --> 00:16:17,720 Speaker 1: based oppression. That lens allowed people to to kind of 298 00:16:17,800 --> 00:16:24,160 Speaker 1: realize that, I mean, basically, if I am a trans woman, 299 00:16:24,680 --> 00:16:29,280 Speaker 1: I'm a trans woman already rather than like waiting to 300 00:16:29,360 --> 00:16:34,280 Speaker 1: become a trans woman. Um. And I don't personally experience 301 00:16:34,360 --> 00:16:38,040 Speaker 1: much in the way of body dysphoria dysmorphia, and so 302 00:16:38,120 --> 00:16:41,640 Speaker 1: I don't have a strong desire to quote unquote like 303 00:16:41,760 --> 00:16:45,040 Speaker 1: medically transition or surgically transition or whatever language you know 304 00:16:45,240 --> 00:16:47,800 Speaker 1: people want to use. But I have a very strong 305 00:16:47,800 --> 00:16:53,160 Speaker 1: desire to socially transition. And so when that became available 306 00:16:53,200 --> 00:16:56,240 Speaker 1: to me, when that was included under the umbrella of 307 00:16:56,280 --> 00:16:59,160 Speaker 1: trans it's like the umbrella of trans expanded to include me. 308 00:16:59,800 --> 00:17:03,080 Speaker 1: For a while, I identified as like a transvestite, um, 309 00:17:03,120 --> 00:17:05,840 Speaker 1: you know, which is not a word that people tend 310 00:17:05,840 --> 00:17:07,600 Speaker 1: to use right now. But I was like, oh, I'm 311 00:17:07,640 --> 00:17:10,159 Speaker 1: just a cross dresser, you know, it's like all of this. 312 00:17:10,240 --> 00:17:11,720 Speaker 1: When I'm like, oh, I was Assis boy, I was 313 00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:13,760 Speaker 1: like Assis boy where I took the name Margaret and 314 00:17:13,760 --> 00:17:17,000 Speaker 1: published books under the name Margaret, and like war Women's 315 00:17:17,040 --> 00:17:23,639 Speaker 1: clothing almost exclusively. Um, But but yeah, it kind of 316 00:17:23,640 --> 00:17:26,159 Speaker 1: expanded to include me, and I think that there's a 317 00:17:26,160 --> 00:17:29,680 Speaker 1: lot of people who that happened to. And any other 318 00:17:29,800 --> 00:17:32,480 Speaker 1: really big important thing is that it stopped being perceived 319 00:17:32,520 --> 00:17:36,240 Speaker 1: as monstrous by um a large trunk of society, and 320 00:17:36,359 --> 00:17:41,000 Speaker 1: now things have swung back the other way. And um, 321 00:17:41,040 --> 00:17:43,440 Speaker 1: you know, I feel a little bit like I'm waiting 322 00:17:43,440 --> 00:17:45,560 Speaker 1: in my castle for the pitchforks and torches to show 323 00:17:45,600 --> 00:17:50,760 Speaker 1: up outside these days, um, especially living rural like I do. 324 00:17:51,760 --> 00:17:55,960 Speaker 1: But you know, I don't know. That's how I you know, 325 00:17:55,960 --> 00:17:57,640 Speaker 1: and it's and it it leaves me in this funny 326 00:17:57,680 --> 00:17:59,919 Speaker 1: situation where I like, do I look back and perceive 327 00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:02,639 Speaker 1: my childhood as a girlhood, you know, or do I 328 00:18:02,920 --> 00:18:04,800 Speaker 1: perceive it perceive it as a boyhood or do I 329 00:18:04,800 --> 00:18:07,199 Speaker 1: just perceive it as a childhood. And the ways I 330 00:18:07,240 --> 00:18:11,080 Speaker 1: feel about that change different times. It helps that, you know. Um. 331 00:18:11,119 --> 00:18:14,080 Speaker 1: Sometimes I like, by the end of high school, like 332 00:18:14,280 --> 00:18:17,160 Speaker 1: my closest group of friends was just like the girls, 333 00:18:17,280 --> 00:18:20,200 Speaker 1: and it was like the girls and then me, I'm here, 334 00:18:21,000 --> 00:18:22,919 Speaker 1: you know, and I wasn't dating any of them. When 335 00:18:22,920 --> 00:18:25,840 Speaker 1: we'd sit around and paint her nails and like skip 336 00:18:25,920 --> 00:18:27,720 Speaker 1: Jim class to sit in the corner and talk about 337 00:18:27,760 --> 00:18:29,960 Speaker 1: goth bands or whatever, you know. And I'm still friends 338 00:18:29,960 --> 00:18:31,720 Speaker 1: with some of those people. One of my best friends 339 00:18:31,760 --> 00:18:33,320 Speaker 1: is still from that time. It was one of the 340 00:18:33,359 --> 00:18:36,080 Speaker 1: people who really encouraged me to come out. I remember 341 00:18:36,240 --> 00:18:37,680 Speaker 1: I was like thirty and I was like, oh, it 342 00:18:37,720 --> 00:18:40,240 Speaker 1: was too late. And someone I had known since I 343 00:18:40,320 --> 00:18:42,040 Speaker 1: was like thirteen was like, why is it too late? 344 00:18:42,080 --> 00:18:43,920 Speaker 1: And I'm like, I don't know, because no one would 345 00:18:43,920 --> 00:18:46,919 Speaker 1: believe me. And she's like does that matter? And I'm like, 346 00:18:47,600 --> 00:18:52,520 Speaker 1: I guess it doesn't, you know, And and now I'm 347 00:18:52,560 --> 00:18:55,800 Speaker 1: kind of rambling, um, but some people will believe me 348 00:18:55,840 --> 00:18:57,399 Speaker 1: and some people won't. And you know, it's like I 349 00:18:57,400 --> 00:19:01,240 Speaker 1: don't pass right, but I don't try to. You. Um, 350 00:19:01,280 --> 00:19:03,080 Speaker 1: it's possible that if I transition when I was younger, 351 00:19:03,080 --> 00:19:06,320 Speaker 1: I would have put more work into that. But as 352 00:19:06,320 --> 00:19:10,000 Speaker 1: it is, and then and then that's the the beautiful, 353 00:19:10,160 --> 00:19:12,520 Speaker 1: the horrible thing, right as you realize it's like no 354 00:19:12,560 --> 00:19:16,800 Speaker 1: one passes for under this feminine standards. You know, it's like, um, 355 00:19:16,840 --> 00:19:20,840 Speaker 1: this is feminine beauty standards hurt everybody, and so so 356 00:19:20,880 --> 00:19:23,000 Speaker 1: now it's just like, well, you know, I I walked 357 00:19:23,000 --> 00:19:25,119 Speaker 1: through the world and people perceive me largely as a 358 00:19:25,160 --> 00:19:29,480 Speaker 1: man in address UM. And that's fine. I mean it's 359 00:19:30,119 --> 00:19:31,920 Speaker 1: it's fine when it's fine, it's not fine when it's 360 00:19:31,920 --> 00:19:36,919 Speaker 1: not fine. But fortunately I'm also UM a scary punk, 361 00:19:39,240 --> 00:19:41,719 Speaker 1: so for the most part, people don't mess with me. 362 00:19:42,040 --> 00:19:44,359 Speaker 1: A lot of people say things behind my back, but 363 00:19:44,480 --> 00:19:47,440 Speaker 1: not to my face because I also often walk around 364 00:19:47,480 --> 00:19:51,600 Speaker 1: with a very large knife. That'll do it, so I'll 365 00:19:51,640 --> 00:19:53,600 Speaker 1: do it. I like it. I think that's a lesson 366 00:19:53,600 --> 00:19:59,439 Speaker 1: to be told. Yeah, yeah, I mean where it's legal, UM, 367 00:20:00,600 --> 00:20:04,120 Speaker 1: it is a useful visual indicator of like, hey, it's 368 00:20:04,160 --> 00:20:09,560 Speaker 1: not worth it. It's just not worth let's not start UM. 369 00:20:09,600 --> 00:20:12,040 Speaker 1: I love that. I love that conversation about being on 370 00:20:12,080 --> 00:20:14,320 Speaker 1: a spectrum. I think we talked about that a lot 371 00:20:14,480 --> 00:20:16,960 Speaker 1: on the show. When it comes to gender, it's not binary, 372 00:20:17,040 --> 00:20:19,760 Speaker 1: it is. It is a spectrum, and it is fluid, 373 00:20:19,800 --> 00:20:21,920 Speaker 1: and it should be. It doesn't make sense that it's 374 00:20:21,960 --> 00:20:25,040 Speaker 1: not UM, and the idea that it has to be 375 00:20:25,119 --> 00:20:28,960 Speaker 1: in order to fit a standard it's absurd. It is UM. 376 00:20:29,040 --> 00:20:30,680 Speaker 1: When you really kind of come down on the same 377 00:20:30,680 --> 00:20:35,040 Speaker 1: thing with love and relationships UM and understanding that this 378 00:20:35,119 --> 00:20:38,080 Speaker 1: is as fluid, And why wouldn't it be if it's emotion, 379 00:20:38,160 --> 00:20:41,679 Speaker 1: if it's uh not gender, but necessarily but like about 380 00:20:41,720 --> 00:20:44,239 Speaker 1: feelings and who you love who, why wouldn't it be 381 00:20:44,280 --> 00:20:46,520 Speaker 1: the person that you connect to? That makes the most 382 00:20:46,880 --> 00:20:50,360 Speaker 1: sense because at the very least it's honest, and then 383 00:20:50,400 --> 00:20:53,840 Speaker 1: the very most, it's happiness and that's something that we 384 00:20:53,840 --> 00:20:58,480 Speaker 1: should strive for an individual individual lives and just for happiness. Again, Yeah, 385 00:20:58,480 --> 00:21:00,919 Speaker 1: it has nothing to do with everybody else. Has everything 386 00:21:00,960 --> 00:21:04,040 Speaker 1: to do with who you are and coming out, uh 387 00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:07,280 Speaker 1: to whether it's with your gender, what whatever what it is, 388 00:21:07,400 --> 00:21:10,320 Speaker 1: or coming out being independent in their political stance. Like 389 00:21:10,400 --> 00:21:14,320 Speaker 1: that's even a big conversation. Um understanding that it's for 390 00:21:14,359 --> 00:21:17,520 Speaker 1: you and that at any point in time, things change, 391 00:21:17,640 --> 00:21:22,000 Speaker 1: circumstances change, events change, and whatever that might be, it 392 00:21:22,040 --> 00:21:25,760 Speaker 1: doesn't affect anyone else, So why should you be bothered 393 00:21:25,800 --> 00:21:28,399 Speaker 1: by That's such a bigger conversation. And again, yeah, this 394 00:21:28,640 --> 00:21:30,879 Speaker 1: goes back to what we were talking about with romance novels. 395 00:21:30,960 --> 00:21:34,720 Speaker 1: This is like this layout that's existed for years and 396 00:21:34,800 --> 00:21:37,720 Speaker 1: years and years, and it's not really helpful and though 397 00:21:37,800 --> 00:21:40,399 Speaker 1: people have accepted it, there's no reason to remain in 398 00:21:40,520 --> 00:21:44,960 Speaker 1: that habit I love because when you talk about what 399 00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:49,080 Speaker 1: you're going through and you're coming out and even what 400 00:21:49,240 --> 00:21:52,639 Speaker 1: that looks like for you coming out as trance, but 401 00:21:52,720 --> 00:21:56,399 Speaker 1: not only that, realizing the inner person of who you 402 00:21:56,440 --> 00:21:59,560 Speaker 1: are has always been there. So whether it's your political stance, 403 00:21:59,600 --> 00:22:03,560 Speaker 1: whether understanding feminism, whether it's calling yourself an anarchist, which 404 00:22:03,760 --> 00:22:05,720 Speaker 1: I want to come back to because I still need 405 00:22:05,720 --> 00:22:09,160 Speaker 1: an understanding of that for myself. Who understands the binary 406 00:22:09,440 --> 00:22:12,119 Speaker 1: liberal and conservative? Like that's what I know because my 407 00:22:12,160 --> 00:22:16,119 Speaker 1: parents throw it in my face often. But all this 408 00:22:16,200 --> 00:22:18,600 Speaker 1: is a platform for you like this. The reasons that 409 00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:20,959 Speaker 1: you are writing books, the reason that you were in 410 00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:23,400 Speaker 1: a band, the reason that you are in a podcast 411 00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:27,800 Speaker 1: kind of has everything to do with these foundations. Yes, 412 00:22:28,480 --> 00:22:30,639 Speaker 1: there was a question that I didn't reference as a question. 413 00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:34,840 Speaker 1: Can you kind of expound upon that? Yeah? When I 414 00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:36,600 Speaker 1: was younger and I was like, I want to do art, 415 00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:37,720 Speaker 1: and I was like what kind of art? And I 416 00:22:37,800 --> 00:22:39,000 Speaker 1: was like I don't know, And I was like, are 417 00:22:39,040 --> 00:22:41,119 Speaker 1: you any good at an? Even? No? And I'm like 418 00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:44,080 Speaker 1: what am I gonna do? You know? And I I tried. 419 00:22:44,119 --> 00:22:45,359 Speaker 1: I was like, I'm gonna learn how to paint and 420 00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:49,879 Speaker 1: I'm okay painting, but no one's gonna m that's not 421 00:22:49,920 --> 00:22:54,160 Speaker 1: my career path. And you know, and and writing more 422 00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:56,680 Speaker 1: than anything else, writing fiction was was something that was 423 00:22:56,720 --> 00:22:58,399 Speaker 1: more interested and I actually, when I was youngest roy 424 00:22:58,440 --> 00:23:00,919 Speaker 1: poetry and I aspired to become good enough to go 425 00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:04,000 Speaker 1: back to writing poetry. But um, I don't write much 426 00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:06,840 Speaker 1: of it right now. But and so I started kind of, Yeah, 427 00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:10,160 Speaker 1: I like sorted doing all of these things and slowly 428 00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:12,800 Speaker 1: expanding the list of things that I do, the number 429 00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:15,879 Speaker 1: of plates I have spend in unfortunately, and usually what 430 00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:17,640 Speaker 1: I do is if I have something I want to say, 431 00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:20,119 Speaker 1: I think about what the best medium to say that is, 432 00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:22,080 Speaker 1: and then go out and try and say it in 433 00:23:22,119 --> 00:23:25,119 Speaker 1: that way. You know, there's certain things, certain ideas that 434 00:23:25,160 --> 00:23:28,679 Speaker 1: come across in different ways better. And for example, I 435 00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:31,359 Speaker 1: think that music is a really good way to put 436 00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:34,600 Speaker 1: someone in an emotional space or put yourself in an 437 00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:38,119 Speaker 1: emotional space. It's not a particularly good way to be pedantic. 438 00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:40,480 Speaker 1: It's not a very good way to teach someone something. 439 00:23:40,560 --> 00:23:44,439 Speaker 1: It's not a very good way to um express complex 440 00:23:44,440 --> 00:23:49,119 Speaker 1: political ideas or interpersonal ideas. However, it's not terrible at 441 00:23:49,119 --> 00:23:51,080 Speaker 1: those things. I think that Riot Girl has shown us, 442 00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:54,399 Speaker 1: and anarcho punk and uh and hip hop and a 443 00:23:54,440 --> 00:23:58,120 Speaker 1: lot of different very direct forms of communication have come 444 00:23:58,160 --> 00:24:01,440 Speaker 1: through from music, right. But but overall, I tend to 445 00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:04,480 Speaker 1: use it when I have something sort of more emotional 446 00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:09,359 Speaker 1: to say, um, And then if I have something cult 447 00:24:10,160 --> 00:24:12,680 Speaker 1: cultural to say, I often write it in fiction about 448 00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:15,960 Speaker 1: like how can people interact with each other? Right, because 449 00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:18,240 Speaker 1: a lot of my political ideas they are a little 450 00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:20,800 Speaker 1: bit less about, like and here's how the legislative branch 451 00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:22,080 Speaker 1: or in my case, it would be like, here's how 452 00:24:22,119 --> 00:24:25,879 Speaker 1: the anarchist federation, you know, disseminates goods across the different 453 00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:30,119 Speaker 1: collectives that control the work around cooperatives of you know, 454 00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:34,000 Speaker 1: these areas or whatever. Right, Um, we should be like 455 00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:37,920 Speaker 1: the political or economic structure of anarchism, as is sort 456 00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:41,240 Speaker 1: of understood in the twentieth century at least context. But 457 00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:43,840 Speaker 1: I'm much more interested in for me to to use 458 00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:46,320 Speaker 1: anarchism as the example, because this is what I'm more 459 00:24:46,359 --> 00:24:49,280 Speaker 1: familiar with. Ways of relating to each other, ways of 460 00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:54,480 Speaker 1: creating cultures of consent and consensus is what's interesting to me. 461 00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:58,280 Speaker 1: So I like writing characters interacting with each other more 462 00:24:58,320 --> 00:25:01,120 Speaker 1: than I like writing nonfiction, because if I was writing nonfiction, 463 00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:05,400 Speaker 1: it would just be like, we should, um be consensual 464 00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:07,679 Speaker 1: in our relationships with each other, you know, And it's 465 00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:11,040 Speaker 1: much easier to just like draw that right and and 466 00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:12,920 Speaker 1: you can, and then you can get into the fun stuff, 467 00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:15,399 Speaker 1: like like what is a romance novel look like in 468 00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:18,600 Speaker 1: a you know, culture of consent? Where like, even if 469 00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:21,679 Speaker 1: it's a monogamous relationship, it's monogamous in the context of 470 00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:26,280 Speaker 1: polyamory as available to these characters, but they choose monogamy, 471 00:25:26,359 --> 00:25:27,919 Speaker 1: What does that look like? What does it look like 472 00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:30,160 Speaker 1: to consent to that? You know? Um? And in this case, 473 00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:34,639 Speaker 1: I'm actually literally quoting Ursula Lagwin is my probably my 474 00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:37,879 Speaker 1: main role model of an author, and actually wrote specifically 475 00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:40,240 Speaker 1: about that in this book called The Dispossessed about like, 476 00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:44,679 Speaker 1: you know, these characters who could absolutely it's even the 477 00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:47,199 Speaker 1: norm to be polyamorous, they choose to be committed to 478 00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:50,280 Speaker 1: each other and it it creates this type of romance 479 00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:52,639 Speaker 1: that you're not going to run across even though it's 480 00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:55,920 Speaker 1: a monogamous relationship, it doesn't it doesn't look like what 481 00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:59,040 Speaker 1: the monogamous relationships we get presented with are. So that's 482 00:25:59,040 --> 00:26:03,000 Speaker 1: why I like writing fiction, and then with podcasts, you know, 483 00:26:03,040 --> 00:26:05,120 Speaker 1: I mean it was different. I have one podcast called 484 00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:07,560 Speaker 1: Live Like the World's Dying, which is a preparedness podcast. 485 00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:12,040 Speaker 1: And and my stated goal here is to take preparedness 486 00:26:12,040 --> 00:26:16,280 Speaker 1: culture away from the right wing because this individualistic everyone 487 00:26:16,359 --> 00:26:19,960 Speaker 1: hiding their bunker and stockpile AMMO and food things is nonsensical. 488 00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:23,040 Speaker 1: It will get everyone killed, it won't stop the crisis 489 00:26:23,119 --> 00:26:25,800 Speaker 1: of the world, and it won't even help those individuals 490 00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:28,960 Speaker 1: live very long because unless all of them are surgeons 491 00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:31,600 Speaker 1: and have another one around, they're not going to be 492 00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:34,280 Speaker 1: able to do anything when their pent experts. And what 493 00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:36,199 Speaker 1: I want to be able to communicate to people is 494 00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:40,320 Speaker 1: that society is what creates safety. Uh. And society is 495 00:26:40,359 --> 00:26:44,360 Speaker 1: what allows us to live full and happy and free lives. 496 00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:47,600 Speaker 1: Right Because freedom, as I understand it, is not something 497 00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:51,000 Speaker 1: that exists in a vacuum. Freedom is a relationship between people. 498 00:26:51,240 --> 00:26:54,639 Speaker 1: Freedom is something that we give one another. Uh. And 499 00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:57,439 Speaker 1: So to be totally alone, I'm not free because I 500 00:26:57,480 --> 00:27:00,520 Speaker 1: can't do everything I want to do. All I can 501 00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:02,879 Speaker 1: do is try not to die if I'm just totally alone. 502 00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:06,879 Speaker 1: The only way in which freedom becomes a liberty is 503 00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:10,600 Speaker 1: if your rich as hell, because then you can hire 504 00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:12,399 Speaker 1: everyone to do everything for you, so you're still not 505 00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:14,920 Speaker 1: actually alone doing things. You're just making all the decisions 506 00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:17,720 Speaker 1: yourself anyway. Okay, so that's so if I want to 507 00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:19,639 Speaker 1: get across that idea, apparently what I do is come 508 00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:22,879 Speaker 1: out of your podcast and say it. But but in 509 00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:24,919 Speaker 1: general what I do is, you know, I run this 510 00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:27,479 Speaker 1: podcast where I interview people about compost or I interview 511 00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:32,840 Speaker 1: people about you know, community gardens or you know, activist 512 00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:35,600 Speaker 1: modes that are working for them or whatever. And then 513 00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:37,440 Speaker 1: the other one that I do is called cool People 514 00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:40,119 Speaker 1: Who Did Cool Stuff. And it's how I try to 515 00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:44,440 Speaker 1: show people that we can have agency and that we can, 516 00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:47,359 Speaker 1: you know, because we keep getting told by society that 517 00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:50,680 Speaker 1: we don't have agency, that we can't do what we want. 518 00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:53,560 Speaker 1: We have to appeal to other people in power to 519 00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:58,480 Speaker 1: get things done. And and that is my work um 520 00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:02,199 Speaker 1: as an anarchist, but even in responsibility and freedom as 521 00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:06,320 Speaker 1: the two sort of core concepts, and so my work 522 00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:09,240 Speaker 1: is to try to help people understand we can have agency. 523 00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:11,439 Speaker 1: And here all these people in the past who have 524 00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:14,880 Speaker 1: taken agency over bad situations and they don't always win, 525 00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:19,480 Speaker 1: right Unfortunately, they often don't win. But but winning and 526 00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:23,040 Speaker 1: losing is a really weird concept when we're mortal, because like, 527 00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:27,440 Speaker 1: I don't know the difference between dying trying to make 528 00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:30,760 Speaker 1: things better or dying in a world that didn't make 529 00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:34,760 Speaker 1: things better. I'm still dying, you know, Like, like we 530 00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:38,360 Speaker 1: can't have dying be a massive negative in our lives 531 00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:42,480 Speaker 1: because we're stuck with it. You know that's going to happen. 532 00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:46,040 Speaker 1: And and so I just I wanna so if I 533 00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:48,320 Speaker 1: want to try and get across this concept of agency, 534 00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:51,320 Speaker 1: that is the other format I use for it. And 535 00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:53,800 Speaker 1: I don't know, I just love all of the different 536 00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:55,440 Speaker 1: way all of these different formats work, and I don't 537 00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:57,440 Speaker 1: do all of them right. There's so many good ideas 538 00:28:57,480 --> 00:29:00,960 Speaker 1: that are just not you know, I I probably won't 539 00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:04,680 Speaker 1: write a like I do write nonfiction. Actually, now that 540 00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:08,160 Speaker 1: I say that, I like, as soon as I started 541 00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:09,240 Speaker 1: saying that, I'm like, no, but I want to do 542 00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:12,320 Speaker 1: everything I was gonna say, you do a lot of things. 543 00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:15,360 Speaker 1: I get released. I was watching I was rewatching The Hobbit, 544 00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:17,480 Speaker 1: which I like more than almost anyone I know, and 545 00:29:18,760 --> 00:29:20,440 Speaker 1: and I was just like thinking about the elves being 546 00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:21,800 Speaker 1: like man if I was an elf. I'd be like, 547 00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:24,040 Speaker 1: for twenty years, I'm just gonna be a blacksmith. I'm 548 00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:27,320 Speaker 1: just gonna make swords for twenty years. Okay, that's done, 549 00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:29,360 Speaker 1: all right. Now I'm gonna write poetry for twenty years, 550 00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:31,520 Speaker 1: and like now I'm gonna go and like do childcare 551 00:29:31,560 --> 00:29:33,959 Speaker 1: for my friends for twenty you know, just specializing all 552 00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:41,120 Speaker 1: these different things. Anyway, that's okay. Yeah, I love it. 553 00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:58,040 Speaker 1: I get it. Maantha has already mentioned it, You've alluded 554 00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:00,560 Speaker 1: to it a lot. Can you explain what being an 555 00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:04,120 Speaker 1: anarchist is and uh, what you think that has to 556 00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:09,080 Speaker 1: do with feminism? Sure? Um, so I understand. Anarchism is 557 00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:11,640 Speaker 1: two separate things that are related, and one is a 558 00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:15,520 Speaker 1: sort of ideological movement that came out of European socialism. Um, 559 00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:18,320 Speaker 1: and it it actually predates Marxism and a lot of 560 00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:21,920 Speaker 1: the other very specific is ms within socialism. It was 561 00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:25,360 Speaker 1: basically people who were like, well, the state and capitalism 562 00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:28,080 Speaker 1: are bad. They're both oppressive forces, and we should do 563 00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:30,560 Speaker 1: without them and we should do things as communities. And 564 00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:32,920 Speaker 1: then the sort of argue the like sub sects that 565 00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:35,840 Speaker 1: come up within that ideological position that was originally kind 566 00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:40,080 Speaker 1: of mid nineteenth century eighteen forties or so, there's like 567 00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:45,360 Speaker 1: mutualist anarchism, which still uses markets and banks, but they're 568 00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:49,120 Speaker 1: like people's banks and there's no ability to maintain capital 569 00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:53,080 Speaker 1: and wield it against other people versus like a communalist 570 00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:55,240 Speaker 1: or a communist anarchism, which are not the same but 571 00:30:55,280 --> 00:30:58,560 Speaker 1: are like much more what people imagine of like leftism, 572 00:30:58,560 --> 00:31:02,120 Speaker 1: where we all that kind of get together and share um. 573 00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:06,560 Speaker 1: And it was positioned within the sort of ideological framework 574 00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:10,520 Speaker 1: of socialism, which is the general overall capitalist shouldn't run 575 00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:14,479 Speaker 1: everything and overall like society should run things instead, right, 576 00:31:14,600 --> 00:31:17,160 Speaker 1: like the who owns the means of production is the 577 00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:21,000 Speaker 1: big thing, Like who owns the factories is that the 578 00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:23,000 Speaker 1: people who own the factories? Is that the workers who 579 00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:27,120 Speaker 1: own the factories, et cetera. UM. And so that is 580 00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:31,560 Speaker 1: the anarchist sort of tradition that I come from, and 581 00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:34,680 Speaker 1: anarchists have are kind of the most I would I 582 00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:38,000 Speaker 1: would claim probably the most misunderstood of these different positions, 583 00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:43,080 Speaker 1: because originally we kind of had this the stereotype of 584 00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:45,800 Speaker 1: where the people who like throw bombs and kill kings. UM. 585 00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:47,360 Speaker 1: I am not embarrassed the fact that we used to 586 00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:49,800 Speaker 1: kill kings. Someone says that they're in charge of everyone else, 587 00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:53,400 Speaker 1: and someone says, no, you're not. Um. That's okay by me, right, 588 00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:56,640 Speaker 1: But you know that if that is people have this 589 00:31:56,720 --> 00:31:59,040 Speaker 1: perception of anarchists as only the people who are trying 590 00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:03,040 Speaker 1: to destroy the exist instant rather than create a society 591 00:32:03,080 --> 00:32:09,040 Speaker 1: based on equality, based on non hierarchy. And so the 592 00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:13,160 Speaker 1: largest example of an anarchist society that is the most 593 00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:15,560 Speaker 1: that we have the most information about, at least as 594 00:32:15,560 --> 00:32:18,440 Speaker 1: a consciously anarchist society was during the Spanish Civil War 595 00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:22,840 Speaker 1: in the nineteen thirties, when anarchists were the majority, I 596 00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:27,200 Speaker 1: believe of the labor movement in Spain. And so when 597 00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:30,760 Speaker 1: this war broke out, when Franco invaded and tried to 598 00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:34,320 Speaker 1: declare fascism within um and had tried to do a coup, 599 00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:38,800 Speaker 1: basically anarchists were on the front lines and prevented that 600 00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:43,240 Speaker 1: from happening. And then in that lack of the republic 601 00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:46,840 Speaker 1: having state power, the anarchists started running everything and they 602 00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:49,640 Speaker 1: had a lot of organizations in places. The other misconception 603 00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:53,160 Speaker 1: that people have about anarchism, so anarchism is not anti organization, 604 00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:58,120 Speaker 1: and anarchism is purely anti authoritarian organization where someone tells 605 00:32:58,120 --> 00:32:59,320 Speaker 1: you what to do in a way that you don't 606 00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:03,080 Speaker 1: have a say over UM. And they still create structures 607 00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:06,160 Speaker 1: that that, but their bottom up structures instead of top 608 00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:08,880 Speaker 1: down structures. So a lot of anarchists talk about federations 609 00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:13,440 Speaker 1: and so goods can still be transported everywhere, and you know, 610 00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:16,120 Speaker 1: things can be made and things can be done in 611 00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:20,720 Speaker 1: society can function UM. I believe within this type of 612 00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:24,280 Speaker 1: framework UM. And one of the other main distinctions of 613 00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:27,680 Speaker 1: it is that anarchists don't tend to separate the means 614 00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:31,760 Speaker 1: from the ends. So they so theoretically a state communist 615 00:33:31,840 --> 00:33:35,960 Speaker 1: or a communist Marxist communist and Marxist Leninist, etcetera, believe 616 00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:38,960 Speaker 1: in the creation of communism, which is a society without 617 00:33:38,960 --> 00:33:42,240 Speaker 1: a state, but they create a state or take the 618 00:33:42,280 --> 00:33:46,000 Speaker 1: state in order to do that. Anarchists believe that the 619 00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:48,240 Speaker 1: means and the ends are inseparable, and this is where 620 00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:52,080 Speaker 1: it ties into feminism. For me well one, anarchist feminism 621 00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:55,720 Speaker 1: has been a large part of the feminist movement throughout history, 622 00:33:55,760 --> 00:33:57,920 Speaker 1: and feminism has been a large part of the anarchist movement. 623 00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:02,040 Speaker 1: But this idea that means in the ends are inseparable. Uh, 624 00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:04,080 Speaker 1: you know the idea of like. Our goal is to 625 00:34:04,120 --> 00:34:07,640 Speaker 1: give more people more agency over their own lives. Our 626 00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:12,920 Speaker 1: goal is to teach consent and teach ways of relating 627 00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:16,279 Speaker 1: to each other as equals um whether or not even 628 00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:18,879 Speaker 1: like we win and we get an anarchist society. Our 629 00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:22,399 Speaker 1: goal is to infuse our interpersonal relationships with this sense 630 00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:26,880 Speaker 1: of equality. Uh. And agency and so and and so 631 00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:30,440 Speaker 1: direct action is often a major focus of anarchism and 632 00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:33,640 Speaker 1: so and actually a thing that came up in my research. 633 00:34:33,880 --> 00:34:36,520 Speaker 1: I researched the Jain Collective, who are amazing and they 634 00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:39,839 Speaker 1: mostly come from a socialist position, and that allowed them 635 00:34:39,840 --> 00:34:41,880 Speaker 1: to think, we don't care about legality, We're going to 636 00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:44,280 Speaker 1: get this done. And you know, Jaine Collective, I presume 637 00:34:44,320 --> 00:34:46,400 Speaker 1: most people are aware, but as a as an underground 638 00:34:46,440 --> 00:34:49,759 Speaker 1: abortion provider in Chicago, that did an amazing work. I 639 00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:55,560 Speaker 1: later discovered that anarchists in Germany in the nineteen twenties 640 00:34:55,560 --> 00:35:02,640 Speaker 1: and thirties ran three hundred different illegal abortion providers um 641 00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:05,279 Speaker 1: all across Germany. And they didn't do it in the 642 00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:09,000 Speaker 1: name of anarchism. It's just that this feminist movement that 643 00:35:09,080 --> 00:35:13,840 Speaker 1: was providing abortion came out of the anarchist organizing tradition. 644 00:35:14,680 --> 00:35:18,400 Speaker 1: Um And because they had that we're good at illegal stuff, 645 00:35:18,719 --> 00:35:21,360 Speaker 1: we care about agency, we care about all of these things. 646 00:35:21,640 --> 00:35:24,040 Speaker 1: They set up three hundred clinics. I'm going to have 647 00:35:24,080 --> 00:35:25,799 Speaker 1: my numbers fuzzy when I say this stuff. I don't 648 00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:27,720 Speaker 1: have my notes in front of me. Please don't quote 649 00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:29,800 Speaker 1: me direct what you all. But I mean, like anyone 650 00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:32,759 Speaker 1: listening at home, you know, don't be like exactly three, 651 00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:37,520 Speaker 1: you know. Um And and I read that, and I 652 00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:39,319 Speaker 1: was just so excited, and I want to know more 653 00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:41,799 Speaker 1: about that, you know. And I only know the like 654 00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:45,319 Speaker 1: cliffs nose versions because well because there's a lot of 655 00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:47,080 Speaker 1: really old books that I have to read in order 656 00:35:47,080 --> 00:35:49,960 Speaker 1: I can order to really understand it. Yeah. So and 657 00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:52,200 Speaker 1: so that's what it is for me. You know, there's 658 00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:55,200 Speaker 1: it's a thing that means a lot of different things 659 00:35:55,200 --> 00:35:57,200 Speaker 1: to different people. Oh but at the very beginning said 660 00:35:57,200 --> 00:36:00,000 Speaker 1: it's two things. And one it's this specific ideaological trade 661 00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:03,279 Speaker 1: Asian and then to it's its own concept, which has 662 00:36:03,320 --> 00:36:06,080 Speaker 1: existed long before it's had a name. Um. And there's 663 00:36:06,120 --> 00:36:09,640 Speaker 1: a lot of people doing work, especially from non European backgrounds, 664 00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:17,640 Speaker 1: about Antarctic organizing that has very similar like means and ends, 665 00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:20,680 Speaker 1: but doesn't come from well this old dead white guy 666 00:36:20,680 --> 00:36:24,359 Speaker 1: with a beard said this, and instead are like our 667 00:36:24,400 --> 00:36:27,560 Speaker 1: traditions that are coming from North America or our traditions 668 00:36:27,560 --> 00:36:29,680 Speaker 1: that are coming from you know, West Africa or whatever, 669 00:36:29,800 --> 00:36:32,319 Speaker 1: like tie in very well to this, and this is 670 00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:35,439 Speaker 1: how we see things. You know. Yeah, that's I don't 671 00:36:35,440 --> 00:36:36,879 Speaker 1: know if that was a good one on one or not, 672 00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:40,520 Speaker 1: but that's that's where I'm coming from politically. Very good. 673 00:36:40,960 --> 00:36:43,160 Speaker 1: I love that because yeah, I don't, like I said, 674 00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:46,319 Speaker 1: the history is very fuzzy for me, because, like I said, 675 00:36:46,320 --> 00:36:50,120 Speaker 1: I grew up in North Georgia, where everything's very bonary anyway, 676 00:36:50,160 --> 00:36:51,880 Speaker 1: and when it comes to politics, either you're with us 677 00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:55,640 Speaker 1: or you aren't. Kind of conversations and having this level 678 00:36:55,640 --> 00:36:59,600 Speaker 1: of like, oh, anarchist has always been not a bad 679 00:36:59,640 --> 00:37:02,440 Speaker 1: word necessarily, but not necessarily good one either. So it's 680 00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:05,280 Speaker 1: kind of like it's it's you know, it's with the foreigners. 681 00:37:05,320 --> 00:37:07,680 Speaker 1: You just you gotta put it out there. It's not 682 00:37:07,760 --> 00:37:10,640 Speaker 1: it's not part of the US culture and especially Mountain culture. 683 00:37:11,360 --> 00:37:14,080 Speaker 1: That's from me. But like that's a lot of like 684 00:37:14,280 --> 00:37:17,600 Speaker 1: learning lessons of like, Okay, this is exactly where I 685 00:37:17,640 --> 00:37:20,200 Speaker 1: am in my standpoint. I didn't know what it was necessarily, 686 00:37:20,239 --> 00:37:22,520 Speaker 1: not necessarily like bombing kings, I'm not talking about that, 687 00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:25,880 Speaker 1: but in general, just like uh, finding out what it 688 00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:30,080 Speaker 1: is to be autonomous in understanding that as a group 689 00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:33,520 Speaker 1: we do things better the societal aspect of everything. Of course, 690 00:37:33,760 --> 00:37:36,160 Speaker 1: you know we're not gonna talk about communism and how 691 00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:42,080 Speaker 1: that does lie within the patriarchal ideals, but like what 692 00:37:42,120 --> 00:37:45,400 Speaker 1: I'm talking about in an understanding, I became a social 693 00:37:45,440 --> 00:37:47,920 Speaker 1: worker because I wanted to work for the collective. I 694 00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:50,520 Speaker 1: wanted to want to be one who did a macro 695 00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:54,400 Speaker 1: practice over a micro ideal. And that's a big debate 696 00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:56,160 Speaker 1: within social work when I was in social work. I 697 00:37:56,200 --> 00:37:57,600 Speaker 1: don't know if it's changed because it's been a minute 698 00:37:57,600 --> 00:37:59,640 Speaker 1: since I've been in school, but that was a big 699 00:37:59,640 --> 00:38:03,040 Speaker 1: debate about the macro micro of helping a community in 700 00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:05,680 Speaker 1: society and what does that look like and what did 701 00:38:05,680 --> 00:38:07,920 Speaker 1: social work began to be. It came out of a 702 00:38:08,040 --> 00:38:11,600 Speaker 1: macro practice in helping communities, That's where it came to, 703 00:38:11,719 --> 00:38:14,040 Speaker 1: and then it got you know, dissected into while I'll 704 00:38:14,040 --> 00:38:16,720 Speaker 1: be a therapist, which is not a bad thing, please understand. 705 00:38:16,760 --> 00:38:19,600 Speaker 1: I believe that helps as well a community when it's 706 00:38:19,600 --> 00:38:24,920 Speaker 1: done correctly. Um. But yeah, this like understanding, Like, oh okay, 707 00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:28,359 Speaker 1: I've been practicing this, this makes sense. Oh okay. When 708 00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:31,799 Speaker 1: we talk about feminism, especially when we talk about intersectional feminism, 709 00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:35,680 Speaker 1: which is where we are today, and it's shifted a lot. 710 00:38:36,239 --> 00:38:39,400 Speaker 1: When we talk about feminism, feminism from the origins of 711 00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:43,160 Speaker 1: the word to today has shifted greatly in a good way. 712 00:38:43,680 --> 00:38:46,920 Speaker 1: I hope, um as we are. You're right where we 713 00:38:47,040 --> 00:38:51,080 Speaker 1: have tracked backwards. As now we can at least differentiate 714 00:38:51,160 --> 00:38:55,080 Speaker 1: those who are bad, bad players when it comes to feminism, 715 00:38:55,160 --> 00:38:59,040 Speaker 1: such as terse uh circuits such as the Rawlings fan 716 00:38:59,120 --> 00:39:03,400 Speaker 1: base that sticks with her, um with her stupidity. I 717 00:39:03,520 --> 00:39:06,120 Speaker 1: like that outlet that. But I think there's a whole 718 00:39:06,200 --> 00:39:11,040 Speaker 1: level of conversation when we talk about politics and understanding 719 00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:15,920 Speaker 1: our platforms and growing together and what does feminism look like. 720 00:39:16,080 --> 00:39:19,120 Speaker 1: We had to revisit that often, um Andy, and I 721 00:39:19,200 --> 00:39:22,080 Speaker 1: honestly probably every year. So come back and have a 722 00:39:22,080 --> 00:39:24,560 Speaker 1: conversation of Okay, this is the things that we've learned, 723 00:39:24,960 --> 00:39:27,560 Speaker 1: This is what we can see in society, This is 724 00:39:27,600 --> 00:39:30,000 Speaker 1: what we know that is changing vastly with the Black 725 00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:33,120 Speaker 1: Lives Matter, uh, massagren nooir. You know, you have to 726 00:39:33,200 --> 00:39:38,279 Speaker 1: revamp that conversation about feminism. And I think as we 727 00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:43,320 Speaker 1: are going back to seeing the negativity towards the queer community, 728 00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:46,520 Speaker 1: the negativity towards the trans community, we have to come 729 00:39:46,520 --> 00:39:50,520 Speaker 1: back and revisit this conversation. What does feminism look like today? 730 00:39:51,040 --> 00:39:53,440 Speaker 1: So in your opinion, and this is a big question, 731 00:39:53,800 --> 00:39:56,480 Speaker 1: and I'm sorry for this, and this is how I do. 732 00:39:56,480 --> 00:40:00,759 Speaker 1: Do you think when you came out you're perspective of 733 00:40:00,880 --> 00:40:07,560 Speaker 1: feminism changed in a positive negative manner? As Part one B, 734 00:40:08,360 --> 00:40:11,840 Speaker 1: what do you see uh as a positive in feminism 735 00:40:11,920 --> 00:40:17,000 Speaker 1: today and as a negative in feminism today? So I'm 736 00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:19,480 Speaker 1: gonna answer the second part first, I think I think 737 00:40:19,560 --> 00:40:25,040 Speaker 1: that intersectionality is the main beautiful thing that is happening 738 00:40:25,040 --> 00:40:29,480 Speaker 1: to feminism, uh, you know, and having people understand the 739 00:40:29,520 --> 00:40:32,600 Speaker 1: way that well just literally how intersections work, and how 740 00:40:32,840 --> 00:40:35,720 Speaker 1: the issues that affect rich white women are very different 741 00:40:35,719 --> 00:40:37,640 Speaker 1: than the issues that affect rich black women, that are 742 00:40:37,719 --> 00:40:40,239 Speaker 1: very different from the issues that affect you know, poor 743 00:40:40,280 --> 00:40:45,040 Speaker 1: people of color, and and and it allows us to 744 00:40:45,560 --> 00:40:49,480 Speaker 1: hopefully be better to one another and to understand that 745 00:40:49,520 --> 00:40:52,400 Speaker 1: like instead of this, like that we're all fighting in 746 00:40:52,480 --> 00:40:56,719 Speaker 1: solidarity with each other rather than as a united mass, right, 747 00:40:57,000 --> 00:41:00,000 Speaker 1: because we are all coming into feminism with our own 748 00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:06,440 Speaker 1: own needs and our owns uh priorities. Um, but we 749 00:41:06,520 --> 00:41:11,200 Speaker 1: can stand together because we understand what we do have 750 00:41:11,280 --> 00:41:14,640 Speaker 1: in common and what we don't and how we can 751 00:41:14,760 --> 00:41:18,520 Speaker 1: you know, and how I can assume that we're like Okay, 752 00:41:18,520 --> 00:41:21,239 Speaker 1: for example, rov wait affects me, but it does not 753 00:41:21,320 --> 00:41:25,280 Speaker 1: affect me bodily, right, Um, I mean if it destroys 754 00:41:25,320 --> 00:41:27,200 Speaker 1: the right to privacy and it gets used to prevent 755 00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:30,839 Speaker 1: people from medically transitioning, yes, but like I I'm not 756 00:41:30,880 --> 00:41:34,680 Speaker 1: having an abortion anytime soon unless medical you know, unless 757 00:41:34,719 --> 00:41:37,760 Speaker 1: medical technology advances. Uh. And there's always that joke about 758 00:41:37,760 --> 00:41:39,200 Speaker 1: like wanting to be the first trans woman to get 759 00:41:39,239 --> 00:41:42,600 Speaker 1: an abortion, you know, just to to fist off everyone. 760 00:41:42,920 --> 00:41:46,680 Speaker 1: But and while abortion is more than a woman's issue 761 00:41:46,760 --> 00:41:49,200 Speaker 1: because it affects people who are not women bodily. You know, 762 00:41:49,239 --> 00:41:53,760 Speaker 1: it affects trans people's, certain intersects people, certain non binary people. 763 00:41:54,280 --> 00:41:56,160 Speaker 1: You know, it affects a lot of people right who 764 00:41:56,160 --> 00:41:59,360 Speaker 1: are not women. It also is gender based discrimination, and 765 00:41:59,400 --> 00:42:03,440 Speaker 1: that gender discrimination looks real similar to the people who 766 00:42:03,440 --> 00:42:04,920 Speaker 1: are telling me what I can do with my body, 767 00:42:05,520 --> 00:42:09,040 Speaker 1: and even if it wasn't something that affects most women, 768 00:42:09,840 --> 00:42:13,480 Speaker 1: affects me, right, And so being able to say, like 769 00:42:14,480 --> 00:42:18,319 Speaker 1: this matters to me, and like, I don't know, it's 770 00:42:18,360 --> 00:42:20,520 Speaker 1: just like finding these points of solidarity. I think that 771 00:42:20,560 --> 00:42:23,600 Speaker 1: this is like what intersectionality is is really good for 772 00:42:24,080 --> 00:42:26,360 Speaker 1: I think that especially now, and I think this is 773 00:42:26,400 --> 00:42:29,360 Speaker 1: a newer addition, we're starting to see class introduced to 774 00:42:29,400 --> 00:42:31,759 Speaker 1: it into this intersectionality as well, and I think that 775 00:42:31,760 --> 00:42:34,000 Speaker 1: that's vital. Um. I think one of the problems of 776 00:42:34,040 --> 00:42:36,719 Speaker 1: the old left is they reduced everything into class, right. 777 00:42:37,160 --> 00:42:39,640 Speaker 1: But but one of the problems with the sort of 778 00:42:40,800 --> 00:42:44,359 Speaker 1: essentially liberal feminism is that it cuts class out of 779 00:42:44,520 --> 00:42:48,080 Speaker 1: intersectionality sometimes. Um. I don't actually believe the average person 780 00:42:48,120 --> 00:42:52,520 Speaker 1: who identifies as a liberal does, but the sort of like, yeah, 781 00:42:52,560 --> 00:42:54,600 Speaker 1: the the larger, you know, there's such a difference between 782 00:42:54,600 --> 00:43:00,520 Speaker 1: like liberal politicians and liberals, right, um. And so I 783 00:43:00,560 --> 00:43:03,480 Speaker 1: think that the introduction of class is very important because 784 00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:05,920 Speaker 1: it's all related to power. It all comes back to 785 00:43:05,960 --> 00:43:09,520 Speaker 1: power as far as I'm concerned, and class is a 786 00:43:09,680 --> 00:43:12,320 Speaker 1: very strong indicator of power. But so is race, so 787 00:43:12,440 --> 00:43:15,200 Speaker 1: is ethnicity, so is gender, so is the sexual orientation. 788 00:43:15,239 --> 00:43:17,359 Speaker 1: So that there's so many other things that also relate 789 00:43:17,440 --> 00:43:33,759 Speaker 1: to power in terms of what I think feminism or 790 00:43:33,880 --> 00:43:37,840 Speaker 1: feminism is like misstepped or the things that are going badly. Fortunately, 791 00:43:37,880 --> 00:43:40,120 Speaker 1: I think the U S has like largely avoided this 792 00:43:41,280 --> 00:43:44,880 Speaker 1: because well because the right wing has a monopoly on 793 00:43:44,960 --> 00:43:47,840 Speaker 1: hating trans people in the United States, you know it, 794 00:43:47,920 --> 00:43:50,000 Speaker 1: because it became a culture war thing to not allow 795 00:43:50,040 --> 00:43:52,160 Speaker 1: anyone being I'm non binary, not allow anyone to be 796 00:43:52,200 --> 00:43:55,880 Speaker 1: trans or whatever within the United States, um along right 797 00:43:56,000 --> 00:43:59,680 Speaker 1: left lines. So by and large, I don't run across 798 00:43:59,680 --> 00:44:04,800 Speaker 1: feminis US who are like they them that's awful or whatever, 799 00:44:04,920 --> 00:44:07,080 Speaker 1: you know, or like you're not a real woman, You're 800 00:44:07,120 --> 00:44:09,480 Speaker 1: a you know, man in drag or whatever. I'm like, 801 00:44:09,480 --> 00:44:13,200 Speaker 1: I honestly don't whatever. I'm actually me my my pronounser 802 00:44:13,320 --> 00:44:17,520 Speaker 1: i um, you know, like, but in terms of how 803 00:44:17,520 --> 00:44:21,120 Speaker 1: society views me, like I'm finding the best possible, the 804 00:44:21,160 --> 00:44:24,120 Speaker 1: most useful description to provide for other people, you know. 805 00:44:24,640 --> 00:44:27,080 Speaker 1: But it is a problem I think with feminism internationally 806 00:44:27,080 --> 00:44:29,719 Speaker 1: and specifically in thew K right now. Uh, and it 807 00:44:30,080 --> 00:44:32,600 Speaker 1: it could creep in in the United States, and so 808 00:44:32,640 --> 00:44:35,520 Speaker 1: I really, um, I feel like I I try to, 809 00:44:36,960 --> 00:44:39,000 Speaker 1: you know, I think we'll kind of have to, but 810 00:44:39,239 --> 00:44:40,919 Speaker 1: we all try to kind of like keep that from 811 00:44:40,920 --> 00:44:43,280 Speaker 1: creeping in. Is is the turf thing. Is the idea 812 00:44:43,360 --> 00:44:48,400 Speaker 1: that feminism excludes trans people, which is just historically myopic. 813 00:44:48,920 --> 00:44:52,000 Speaker 1: You know, all of these things have all been related. 814 00:44:52,040 --> 00:44:54,760 Speaker 1: Even if you look at the history of understanding homosexuality, 815 00:44:55,239 --> 00:44:57,960 Speaker 1: you know, transness was not a distinct category for a 816 00:44:58,040 --> 00:45:01,440 Speaker 1: very long time. Um. Of course, the people who started 817 00:45:01,440 --> 00:45:04,680 Speaker 1: to distinguish it were some Germans who then the Nazis 818 00:45:04,680 --> 00:45:07,640 Speaker 1: game and burned all their books and killed the first 819 00:45:08,200 --> 00:45:12,080 Speaker 1: woman to medically transition. The famous book burning photos. Whenever 820 00:45:12,120 --> 00:45:14,759 Speaker 1: you see that famous photo of Nazis burning books, it 821 00:45:14,840 --> 00:45:18,440 Speaker 1: was the Institute for Sexual I don't have it off 822 00:45:18,440 --> 00:45:21,040 Speaker 1: the top of my head. Is Hirschfeld's institute where he 823 00:45:21,160 --> 00:45:24,800 Speaker 1: studied homosexuality and trans Nissin, you know, was one of 824 00:45:24,800 --> 00:45:27,600 Speaker 1: the first medical practitioners to say, like, hey, if you 825 00:45:27,640 --> 00:45:29,840 Speaker 1: allow trans people to live as their shows and identity, 826 00:45:30,040 --> 00:45:33,240 Speaker 1: everything is better and they are medically healthier, you know. Anyway, 827 00:45:33,280 --> 00:45:36,680 Speaker 1: I don't know, I'm rambling about that, but so so 828 00:45:36,719 --> 00:45:39,320 Speaker 1: I guess I would say that's like the advantages and disadvantages. 829 00:45:39,360 --> 00:45:42,960 Speaker 1: I think feminism is mostly just doing well and has it. 830 00:45:43,080 --> 00:45:46,080 Speaker 1: It has more it needs to do, It has more, 831 00:45:46,280 --> 00:45:50,280 Speaker 1: especially I think continuing especially along race lines. Um, there's 832 00:45:50,320 --> 00:45:54,040 Speaker 1: like way more of the feminism needs to do. But 833 00:45:55,120 --> 00:45:57,279 Speaker 1: what was the first of the two questions. I was 834 00:45:57,320 --> 00:46:00,680 Speaker 1: asking that since you transition came out, has anything changed 835 00:46:00,680 --> 00:46:02,799 Speaker 1: in your perspective of feminism? Yeah. It took me a 836 00:46:02,880 --> 00:46:08,000 Speaker 1: really long time to feel comfortable eyeing myself in conversations 837 00:46:08,000 --> 00:46:10,879 Speaker 1: about feminism. I spent a very long time and put 838 00:46:10,880 --> 00:46:14,440 Speaker 1: a lot of work into being like an ally right, 839 00:46:14,520 --> 00:46:17,560 Speaker 1: Like I used to write scenes and stuff that were 840 00:46:17,600 --> 00:46:23,520 Speaker 1: like feminism for men, you know, um, and and not 841 00:46:23,719 --> 00:46:26,400 Speaker 1: taking up conversational space was very important to me, and 842 00:46:26,440 --> 00:46:29,000 Speaker 1: so I like very much all of my attention was 843 00:46:29,000 --> 00:46:34,000 Speaker 1: focused outward towards like non feminism or towards particularly towards men, 844 00:46:34,400 --> 00:46:37,360 Speaker 1: to be like, hey, here's ways to be more feminist. 845 00:46:38,600 --> 00:46:42,319 Speaker 1: And so you know, there's like this outsider syndrome, right 846 00:46:42,400 --> 00:46:44,840 Speaker 1: that I have around it, and I actually really appreciate 847 00:46:45,719 --> 00:46:47,640 Speaker 1: the work that the folks like you do, I mean 848 00:46:47,640 --> 00:46:51,200 Speaker 1: even like inviting me here on this, you know, and um, 849 00:46:51,239 --> 00:46:54,920 Speaker 1: and the degree to which like so many you know, 850 00:46:54,960 --> 00:46:58,280 Speaker 1: SIS women and a fab people in general have this 851 00:46:58,280 --> 00:47:00,239 Speaker 1: this work they've done to be like no are you 852 00:47:00,239 --> 00:47:04,040 Speaker 1: talking about Like no, it's it's actually totally fine, you know. 853 00:47:04,719 --> 00:47:07,759 Speaker 1: And I remember the first time I was invited to 854 00:47:08,000 --> 00:47:11,960 Speaker 1: like in all women's full Moon circle, you know, and 855 00:47:11,960 --> 00:47:14,560 Speaker 1: and they were just like, hey, we're and I was 856 00:47:14,640 --> 00:47:17,160 Speaker 1: kind of their test case, right. They had like they 857 00:47:17,280 --> 00:47:19,920 Speaker 1: actually and actually I really respect them for this. They 858 00:47:19,960 --> 00:47:23,640 Speaker 1: had just split they were all SIS women like you know, 859 00:47:23,760 --> 00:47:28,239 Speaker 1: full Moon like ritual collective, right, and they they had 860 00:47:28,280 --> 00:47:30,840 Speaker 1: this hypothetical conversation about whether or not they should include 861 00:47:30,840 --> 00:47:33,840 Speaker 1: trans women, and it got so heated that it split 862 00:47:33,880 --> 00:47:37,160 Speaker 1: into two groups. And I really appreciate the people who 863 00:47:37,360 --> 00:47:40,480 Speaker 1: were like, this is so important to me that even 864 00:47:40,520 --> 00:47:43,439 Speaker 1: though it's a hypothetical, we will like stander a ground 865 00:47:43,480 --> 00:47:45,759 Speaker 1: around this, you know. And I felt a little bit 866 00:47:45,800 --> 00:47:49,239 Speaker 1: like recruited where they were like like come joined us, 867 00:47:49,880 --> 00:47:55,560 Speaker 1: you know, but like it was mostly just good, like yeah, 868 00:47:55,760 --> 00:47:57,640 Speaker 1: so yeah, I guess that's how my my my view 869 00:47:57,680 --> 00:47:59,800 Speaker 1: want to change this is literally like including myself in 870 00:47:59,840 --> 00:48:03,080 Speaker 1: it in a more direct way and then allow allowing 871 00:48:03,160 --> 00:48:05,920 Speaker 1: myself to because I think when you're an ally to 872 00:48:05,960 --> 00:48:08,960 Speaker 1: a movement, you can um promote the work of people 873 00:48:09,000 --> 00:48:11,799 Speaker 1: within that movement, but you generally don't try to like 874 00:48:12,160 --> 00:48:15,319 Speaker 1: shape it or direct it or whatever. You know. And 875 00:48:15,400 --> 00:48:20,479 Speaker 1: allowing myself to feel comfortable having a say is really 876 00:48:20,480 --> 00:48:23,959 Speaker 1: interesting and still something that I like, I still don't 877 00:48:24,040 --> 00:48:26,040 Speaker 1: totally know, and it helps that at the end of 878 00:48:26,040 --> 00:48:27,560 Speaker 1: the day, I'm like, well, I have to say about me, 879 00:48:28,440 --> 00:48:30,600 Speaker 1: right and my perspective. I'm really not trying and not. 880 00:48:30,680 --> 00:48:33,279 Speaker 1: Actually that's where it comes with intersectionality in a good way, right, 881 00:48:33,400 --> 00:48:35,680 Speaker 1: because I can't I can't speak to the experiences of 882 00:48:35,719 --> 00:48:39,399 Speaker 1: most women. I can speak to my experience, you know, um, 883 00:48:39,440 --> 00:48:42,880 Speaker 1: which is as a white trans woman, which is a 884 00:48:42,960 --> 00:48:47,680 Speaker 1: specific set of things. You know. Well, as we've been 885 00:48:47,719 --> 00:48:52,360 Speaker 1: discussing throughout this, you are so so busy. You're doing 886 00:48:52,680 --> 00:48:56,360 Speaker 1: so much, um just out of curiosity because we we 887 00:48:56,480 --> 00:48:58,840 Speaker 1: like to ask this, is there anything that you do 888 00:48:59,400 --> 00:49:03,120 Speaker 1: to kind of balance those things out, like self care wise, 889 00:49:03,239 --> 00:49:06,920 Speaker 1: how do you make sure that it's not too much? Well, 890 00:49:07,680 --> 00:49:11,319 Speaker 1: my idea of relaxing is doing projects. So mostly I 891 00:49:11,360 --> 00:49:13,839 Speaker 1: try to do projects that don't make any money. It's 892 00:49:13,880 --> 00:49:16,719 Speaker 1: one of the main ways I do it or like 893 00:49:17,760 --> 00:49:20,000 Speaker 1: I don't know, Like right now, I'm like trying to 894 00:49:20,040 --> 00:49:23,399 Speaker 1: help my friend is a single mom, like make their 895 00:49:23,440 --> 00:49:26,399 Speaker 1: watering system in their garden work so that they don't 896 00:49:26,440 --> 00:49:28,920 Speaker 1: have to work as much. And the gardening thing just 897 00:49:29,000 --> 00:49:31,040 Speaker 1: goes and it activates all the parts of my brain. 898 00:49:31,080 --> 00:49:34,520 Speaker 1: I like where I'm like puzzles and like playing. I 899 00:49:34,560 --> 00:49:36,320 Speaker 1: can't believe it's a part of my brain that loves plumbing. 900 00:49:36,360 --> 00:49:38,120 Speaker 1: But I lived in an off gride cabin for a 901 00:49:38,120 --> 00:49:41,040 Speaker 1: long time, so I you know, I like doing things 902 00:49:41,040 --> 00:49:46,640 Speaker 1: I'm vaguely good at. And so in terms of all 903 00:49:46,680 --> 00:49:48,640 Speaker 1: self care, I kind of gotta get drag kicking and 904 00:49:48,680 --> 00:49:51,640 Speaker 1: screaming into it. I like hiking. I like, you know, 905 00:49:51,680 --> 00:49:54,000 Speaker 1: my my truck is built out into a camper. My 906 00:49:54,120 --> 00:49:57,200 Speaker 1: dog is very needy because he's a puppy, and so 907 00:49:57,239 --> 00:49:59,520 Speaker 1: I gotta go on walks with him a lot. Yeah, 908 00:49:59,520 --> 00:50:01,319 Speaker 1: I don't know. I actually honestly need to get better 909 00:50:01,360 --> 00:50:04,520 Speaker 1: in self care. Um, I have too many plates spinning. Uh, 910 00:50:04,840 --> 00:50:07,520 Speaker 1: But sometimes the thing that seems fun is setting up 911 00:50:07,520 --> 00:50:11,799 Speaker 1: new plates to spin. So maybe my idea of self 912 00:50:11,800 --> 00:50:15,040 Speaker 1: care is is finishing projects right, because then they're done 913 00:50:15,239 --> 00:50:17,960 Speaker 1: and then you don't have them anymore. Um. And then 914 00:50:17,960 --> 00:50:21,799 Speaker 1: the other thing I did is I I require all 915 00:50:21,880 --> 00:50:24,320 Speaker 1: new hobbies to be physical instead of on the computer, 916 00:50:24,560 --> 00:50:26,600 Speaker 1: because everything I do for money is on a computer. 917 00:50:28,160 --> 00:50:33,440 Speaker 1: So all hobbies would working, gardening, anything like that. That 918 00:50:33,640 --> 00:50:36,160 Speaker 1: is a good tip. That's a good one. I like 919 00:50:36,239 --> 00:50:39,239 Speaker 1: it to unplug. Yes, we know you need to go 920 00:50:39,320 --> 00:50:42,680 Speaker 1: on and move on to the bigger and better projects 921 00:50:42,719 --> 00:50:45,279 Speaker 1: in the ten thousand places you've got going on. But 922 00:50:45,480 --> 00:50:48,000 Speaker 1: where can our listeners find you? Well, first of all, 923 00:50:48,080 --> 00:50:50,040 Speaker 1: this is not this is a bigger and better I 924 00:50:50,760 --> 00:50:52,720 Speaker 1: am so excited that you all have me on this show. 925 00:50:52,880 --> 00:50:55,400 Speaker 1: I'm like, I really think it's cool that what you 926 00:50:55,440 --> 00:50:58,439 Speaker 1: all do. But where can people find me? Can find 927 00:50:58,440 --> 00:51:01,279 Speaker 1: me on Twitter at Api kill Joy. You can find 928 00:51:01,280 --> 00:51:04,040 Speaker 1: me on Instagram at Margaret kill Joy. Instagram is like 929 00:51:04,080 --> 00:51:06,480 Speaker 1: mostly mean posting pictures of my dog or like instruments 930 00:51:06,480 --> 00:51:09,719 Speaker 1: I make, whereas Twitter as me pretending like I would 931 00:51:09,760 --> 00:51:13,239 Speaker 1: never fall into arguing about discourse on the internet, No, sir, 932 00:51:13,520 --> 00:51:16,719 Speaker 1: not me. And you can pre order my book from 933 00:51:16,760 --> 00:51:19,160 Speaker 1: a k Press. If you pre order it before September twenty, 934 00:51:19,320 --> 00:51:21,839 Speaker 1: you'll get an art print that is done by my 935 00:51:21,920 --> 00:51:24,239 Speaker 1: friend as the same person who did the cover art 936 00:51:24,719 --> 00:51:26,560 Speaker 1: and you can order that from a K Press or 937 00:51:26,600 --> 00:51:31,120 Speaker 1: a number of participating bookstores, including cooperatively run bookstores like 938 00:51:31,560 --> 00:51:35,239 Speaker 1: Firestorm Books in Asheville or Red Emma's Books in Baltimore. 939 00:51:35,840 --> 00:51:39,640 Speaker 1: Heading cooperatives are cool. Workers, worker cooperatives are awesome, and 940 00:51:39,800 --> 00:51:42,359 Speaker 1: you can find me on whatever you listen to this 941 00:51:42,440 --> 00:51:45,400 Speaker 1: podcast with. You can find me at cool people who 942 00:51:45,480 --> 00:51:47,520 Speaker 1: did cool stuff. And you can go back in time 943 00:51:47,560 --> 00:51:50,840 Speaker 1: and look up the Jane Collective episode in order to 944 00:51:50,920 --> 00:51:53,840 Speaker 1: listen to Samantha as well, and you can listen to 945 00:51:54,360 --> 00:51:56,719 Speaker 1: Live Like the World Is Dying, which is also on 946 00:51:56,920 --> 00:52:00,600 Speaker 1: your podcast app. Yes, thank you so much for being here. 947 00:52:00,600 --> 00:52:02,719 Speaker 1: It was such a delight. Please come back because there's 948 00:52:02,280 --> 00:52:05,520 Speaker 1: so I was like, oh, resonating with me my best 949 00:52:05,520 --> 00:52:08,640 Speaker 1: friend as well. I feel like we had three other 950 00:52:08,680 --> 00:52:10,920 Speaker 1: subjects that we need to tackle, Like I want to 951 00:52:10,920 --> 00:52:12,319 Speaker 1: talk about this, but I want to I can't talk 952 00:52:12,320 --> 00:52:14,759 Speaker 1: about the hobbit right now. Okay, oh, but but we 953 00:52:14,800 --> 00:52:18,520 Speaker 1: should sometimes. I would love to also prepared this. That 954 00:52:18,560 --> 00:52:22,439 Speaker 1: would be great. Okay, yes, well until that date. Thank 955 00:52:22,440 --> 00:52:26,360 Speaker 1: you so much for joining us. Come back anytime, listeners. 956 00:52:26,360 --> 00:52:28,200 Speaker 1: If you would like to contact us, you can. Our 957 00:52:28,280 --> 00:52:29,799 Speaker 1: email is Stuff in Your Mom Stuff and I Hurt 958 00:52:29,840 --> 00:52:31,279 Speaker 1: mea dot com. You can find us on Twitter at 959 00:52:31,280 --> 00:52:33,040 Speaker 1: mom Stuff Podcasts or on Instagram and Stuff I've Never 960 00:52:33,080 --> 00:52:35,799 Speaker 1: Told You. Thanks as always to our superroducer Christina, Thank you, 961 00:52:36,120 --> 00:52:38,000 Speaker 1: and thanks to you for listening so and never told 962 00:52:38,000 --> 00:52:39,719 Speaker 1: you Protection I Heart Radio from more podcast from my 963 00:52:39,800 --> 00:52:41,279 Speaker 1: Heart Radio. You can check out that heart Radio app, 964 00:52:41,400 --> 00:52:43,240 Speaker 1: a podcast wherever you listen to your favorite shows.