1
00:00:01,480 --> 00:00:02,080
Speaker 1: Trust me?

2
00:00:02,759 --> 00:00:03,760
Speaker 2: Do you trust me?

3
00:00:04,519 --> 00:00:05,720
Speaker 3: Right? Ever lead you astray?

4
00:00:05,920 --> 00:00:09,280
Speaker 2: Trust? This is the truth, the only truth.

5
00:00:09,400 --> 00:00:12,320
Speaker 3: If anybody ever tells you to just trust them, don't

6
00:00:13,400 --> 00:00:17,320
Speaker 3: welcome to trust me. The podcast about cults, extreme belief

7
00:00:17,440 --> 00:00:22,000
Speaker 3: and manipulation from two Jezebel spirits who've actually experienced it.

8
00:00:22,079 --> 00:00:24,680
Speaker 1: I'm Lola Blanc and I'm Megan Elizabeth.

9
00:00:25,040 --> 00:00:27,720
Speaker 3: And today, Nikki g host of Surviving the Black Church,

10
00:00:27,960 --> 00:00:30,680
Speaker 3: joins us for Part two today, in which she will

11
00:00:30,720 --> 00:00:32,920
Speaker 3: tell us about more of the high control groups she

12
00:00:33,000 --> 00:00:35,960
Speaker 3: joined because there were so many, and the political project

13
00:00:36,000 --> 00:00:38,880
Speaker 3: of the Seven Mountain Mandate and Project twenty twenty five,

14
00:00:38,920 --> 00:00:40,159
Speaker 3: and how she was in the room for some of

15
00:00:40,200 --> 00:00:43,960
Speaker 3: those conversations, and how some of these biblical concepts of

16
00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:47,200
Speaker 3: obedience get weaponized to reinforce white supremacy.

17
00:00:47,440 --> 00:00:49,760
Speaker 4: We'll talk about what it means to have a Jezebel

18
00:00:49,880 --> 00:00:52,800
Speaker 4: spirit and how everybody joins cults.

19
00:00:52,800 --> 00:00:54,360
Speaker 1: It's not just the white people problem.

20
00:00:54,440 --> 00:00:58,120
Speaker 4: However, white people are mostly the ones talking about it.

21
00:00:58,520 --> 00:01:02,000
Speaker 4: We'll talk about the difference between church her and religious trauma,

22
00:01:02,080 --> 00:01:04,479
Speaker 4: plus how we don't have to do all of our

23
00:01:04,520 --> 00:01:07,560
Speaker 4: healing at once. Sometimes it's just not time yet. Oh

24
00:01:07,720 --> 00:01:09,880
Speaker 4: so good, so good, so much to get into with her.

25
00:01:10,480 --> 00:01:14,360
Speaker 4: I'm looking for word besides dive today, looking for wordsides jump,

26
00:01:14,440 --> 00:01:20,280
Speaker 4: We're gonna before we before, we then Cannonball back with

27
00:01:20,600 --> 00:01:24,280
Speaker 4: Nicki ge We're Cannonball and Baby Megan. What's your cultiest

28
00:01:24,280 --> 00:01:26,480
Speaker 4: thing of the week. Okay, I don't know if you've

29
00:01:26,520 --> 00:01:30,679
Speaker 4: read the Wired article yet about Peter Teal's secret society.

30
00:01:31,120 --> 00:01:36,399
Speaker 4: Oh god, it's by Dell Cameron and Yulia Alma's Sofa.

31
00:01:36,840 --> 00:01:43,480
Speaker 4: It's called Leak exposes members of Peter Teal's Secretive Dialogue Society.

32
00:01:43,720 --> 00:01:48,640
Speaker 4: This isn't Wired. I of course believe that Peter Teal

33
00:01:48,680 --> 00:01:51,000
Speaker 4: would try to have a secret society. That's been since

34
00:01:51,080 --> 00:01:54,000
Speaker 4: two thousand and six, so lots of time for it

35
00:01:54,080 --> 00:02:00,000
Speaker 4: to simmer. The list got leaked from a Swedish hacker. Basically,

36
00:02:00,560 --> 00:02:04,000
Speaker 4: it's a mind meld where he wants people in tech,

37
00:02:04,080 --> 00:02:07,080
Speaker 4: he wants people with a lot of money. He wants

38
00:02:07,120 --> 00:02:12,359
Speaker 4: people in entertainment to come meet and talk about probably

39
00:02:12,360 --> 00:02:14,360
Speaker 4: how they're going to kill us all in World War three.

40
00:02:15,400 --> 00:02:18,800
Speaker 4: But there's like, I mean, world War three actually is

41
00:02:18,840 --> 00:02:22,440
Speaker 4: one of their speaking points. There's also classes on sex,

42
00:02:22,520 --> 00:02:27,640
Speaker 4: which is just like the people there give attendees' ratings

43
00:02:27,919 --> 00:02:31,560
Speaker 4: on like if they're warm, if they're famous enough, if

44
00:02:31,639 --> 00:02:34,840
Speaker 4: they have enough money, it goes money then fame and importance.

45
00:02:35,040 --> 00:02:40,320
Speaker 4: Oh okay, yeah, And it's just so easy to see

46
00:02:40,720 --> 00:02:45,760
Speaker 4: how well if you're wondering this sounds like something Epstein

47
00:02:45,800 --> 00:02:49,200
Speaker 4: would do, there's a huge, you know, crossover between his

48
00:02:49,200 --> 00:02:52,760
Speaker 4: friends and Peter's. I'm sure, I'm sure. It's just quite scary.

49
00:02:52,840 --> 00:02:55,040
Speaker 4: There's a lot of people on there that you wouldn't expect.

50
00:02:55,400 --> 00:02:58,520
Speaker 4: Joseph Gordon Lovitt is on it, and he made a

51
00:02:58,520 --> 00:03:02,560
Speaker 4: public statement where he was like, uh, I just want

52
00:03:02,560 --> 00:03:04,800
Speaker 4: to be in conversations with people from all sides of

53
00:03:04,840 --> 00:03:07,640
Speaker 4: the table and blah blah blah blah blah, which you know,

54
00:03:07,880 --> 00:03:12,960
Speaker 4: maybe fair enough. What do you think I personally probably

55
00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:18,480
Speaker 4: wouldn't go to a conference with a bunch of Epstein crossovers.

56
00:03:18,480 --> 00:03:21,120
Speaker 1: But that's just me, I mean, okay, So, like.

57
00:03:21,280 --> 00:03:25,959
Speaker 3: Obviously, like now our whole conception of billionaires talking to

58
00:03:26,000 --> 00:03:27,760
Speaker 3: each other and rich people talking to each other has

59
00:03:27,760 --> 00:03:30,360
Speaker 3: become a lot more nefarious because of what we know

60
00:03:30,360 --> 00:03:32,200
Speaker 3: about the Epstein island and stuff. But I will say,

61
00:03:32,240 --> 00:03:36,360
Speaker 3: like this idea of like people exchanging ideas and like

62
00:03:36,720 --> 00:03:39,440
Speaker 3: gathering interesting people gathering together, it's like not.

63
00:03:39,960 --> 00:03:43,920
Speaker 1: Inherently well interesting as well.

64
00:03:44,360 --> 00:03:49,360
Speaker 4: Epstein and Peter did discuss this in an email exchange

65
00:03:49,400 --> 00:03:53,360
Speaker 4: starting a secret Society, So I mean Emstein.

66
00:03:53,000 --> 00:03:56,240
Speaker 3: Obvious was also like, in addition to his like evil

67
00:03:56,440 --> 00:03:58,560
Speaker 3: shit was a guy who was like, I want to

68
00:03:58,600 --> 00:04:01,280
Speaker 3: talk to every intellectual know, Like I feel like there's this.

69
00:04:01,320 --> 00:04:04,320
Speaker 1: Like sar, but there was like a sex part to it.

70
00:04:04,760 --> 00:04:06,839
Speaker 3: No, no, I know, but I'm saying, like, I think

71
00:04:06,880 --> 00:04:09,480
Speaker 3: a lot of people I know are interested in this

72
00:04:09,560 --> 00:04:11,080
Speaker 3: idea of like I want to talk to a lot

73
00:04:11,080 --> 00:04:13,760
Speaker 3: of interesting people, and rich people just have access to

74
00:04:13,800 --> 00:04:14,240
Speaker 3: more of them.

75
00:04:14,240 --> 00:04:17,359
Speaker 4: And I think that's the primary difference. And I think

76
00:04:17,680 --> 00:04:18,760
Speaker 4: one of our main.

77
00:04:19,120 --> 00:04:21,640
Speaker 1: Hypothesis of this podcast is that people.

78
00:04:21,360 --> 00:04:24,120
Speaker 4: Across lines should be speaking to each other because that's

79
00:04:24,760 --> 00:04:27,840
Speaker 4: pleasant ways far away, you know. One of the rules

80
00:04:27,880 --> 00:04:30,280
Speaker 4: is like you have to leave any recording device far

81
00:04:30,360 --> 00:04:33,760
Speaker 4: far away, and like this is candid. But the last

82
00:04:33,760 --> 00:04:37,799
Speaker 4: point I'll make about this culty ish group I'm sure

83
00:04:37,800 --> 00:04:41,440
Speaker 4: more will will come to the service, is that there's

84
00:04:41,560 --> 00:04:44,440
Speaker 4: just so many people watching them that work there and

85
00:04:44,520 --> 00:04:48,240
Speaker 4: making notes about them, and how many people they were

86
00:04:48,279 --> 00:04:51,800
Speaker 4: saying this is their public persona and this is how

87
00:04:51,880 --> 00:04:56,400
Speaker 4: they say that they are politically publicly, but this is

88
00:04:56,480 --> 00:05:00,120
Speaker 4: how we rate them actually in real life.

89
00:05:00,360 --> 00:05:02,440
Speaker 3: But you mean like people who are part of the

90
00:05:02,560 --> 00:05:05,080
Speaker 3: organization of it, not not, because when I hear people

91
00:05:05,120 --> 00:05:07,720
Speaker 3: who work there, I'm thinking of like workers, like service workers,

92
00:05:08,000 --> 00:05:11,039
Speaker 3: you know, people who are part of his organization. Okay,

93
00:05:11,839 --> 00:05:14,039
Speaker 3: the rating people? And then and then what happens with

94
00:05:14,120 --> 00:05:16,000
Speaker 3: what's the point of what's the purpose of the rating?

95
00:05:16,279 --> 00:05:17,160
Speaker 3: Where does the rating go?

96
00:05:17,480 --> 00:05:22,039
Speaker 4: Well, the rating is like keeping people separated. It's like,

97
00:05:22,160 --> 00:05:25,479
Speaker 4: don't let an A person sit with a C person.

98
00:05:25,800 --> 00:05:30,800
Speaker 4: Oh and C people are the most important, which I'm like,

99
00:05:30,880 --> 00:05:33,880
Speaker 4: oh what and A people are the least important. It's

100
00:05:34,080 --> 00:05:37,760
Speaker 4: just so bizarre, But yeah, it's it's interesting that they

101
00:05:37,800 --> 00:05:41,120
Speaker 4: are collecting kind of secret information on people. Sometimes that's

102
00:05:41,160 --> 00:05:44,440
Speaker 4: called collateral where they're like, you're not actually a Republican,

103
00:05:44,600 --> 00:05:47,640
Speaker 4: you're a liberal when you're not in front of people,

104
00:05:47,640 --> 00:05:50,120
Speaker 4: because a lot of people are in government and they

105
00:05:50,160 --> 00:05:53,640
Speaker 4: just have all the secret information about people. Also, Peter

106
00:05:53,760 --> 00:05:56,160
Speaker 4: Artield just moved to Argentina because he said he didn't

107
00:05:56,200 --> 00:05:58,839
Speaker 4: like the direction of where the United States is going.

108
00:05:59,279 --> 00:06:01,919
Speaker 4: And he's like one of the people controlling it, my

109
00:06:02,760 --> 00:06:07,800
Speaker 4: fun stuff all around, and you know, dude, he is

110
00:06:08,080 --> 00:06:12,240
Speaker 4: so okay, Yeah, it's just wild.

111
00:06:12,480 --> 00:06:12,800
Speaker 1: Listen.

112
00:06:13,040 --> 00:06:15,400
Speaker 3: There's all kinds of retreats in this world, some good,

113
00:06:15,440 --> 00:06:18,840
Speaker 3: some bad. I think just Peter Teele inherently, it's just

114
00:06:19,040 --> 00:06:22,160
Speaker 3: like trying to control everything.

115
00:06:22,680 --> 00:06:27,440
Speaker 4: So it's a naughty, naughty ma'am, and oh my god,

116
00:06:27,520 --> 00:06:28,040
Speaker 4: I'm sorry.

117
00:06:28,120 --> 00:06:28,760
Speaker 1: One last thing.

118
00:06:29,080 --> 00:06:31,960
Speaker 4: One of the people invited was Josh Brolin, and his

119
00:06:32,240 --> 00:06:34,680
Speaker 4: PR person is like, Josh Brolin would like to say,

120
00:06:34,680 --> 00:06:35,560
Speaker 4: what the fuck did.

121
00:06:35,400 --> 00:06:37,040
Speaker 1: I get myself involved?

122
00:06:39,600 --> 00:06:42,520
Speaker 4: But I guess Josh Brolin, I don't watch these movies,

123
00:06:42,520 --> 00:06:45,640
Speaker 4: but in Marvel movies he's like the bad villain, but

124
00:06:45,680 --> 00:06:46,800
Speaker 4: who's he's kind of.

125
00:06:46,800 --> 00:06:51,040
Speaker 1: Good to, like edge Lord and like Endzols.

126
00:06:51,080 --> 00:06:53,880
Speaker 4: I guess, so of course they would want him there

127
00:06:53,920 --> 00:06:57,200
Speaker 4: because they like his character in a movie.

128
00:06:58,040 --> 00:07:00,800
Speaker 3: I have no concept of what character we're talking about,

129
00:07:00,839 --> 00:07:05,000
Speaker 3: because I do not watch these movies, but that.

130
00:07:03,839 --> 00:07:07,920
Speaker 1: That tracks I guess. I don't know. I'm just like

131
00:07:07,960 --> 00:07:08,920
Speaker 1: the people.

132
00:07:08,600 --> 00:07:15,840
Speaker 4: Running our world are nerd nerdo okay, Lola, Yeah, what's

133
00:07:15,840 --> 00:07:17,280
Speaker 4: your cultiest thing of the week?

134
00:07:18,440 --> 00:07:22,840
Speaker 3: Okay, I've been listening to a lot of podcasts on

135
00:07:23,480 --> 00:07:29,040
Speaker 3: codependency for a character in my film Okay that I'm writing,

136
00:07:29,080 --> 00:07:32,360
Speaker 3: which is very much about a codependent relationship with a

137
00:07:32,440 --> 00:07:38,480
Speaker 3: particular extreme kind of addict, and also incidentally like learning

138
00:07:38,520 --> 00:07:42,400
Speaker 3: a lot about myself as I'm learning about this character.

139
00:07:43,160 --> 00:07:45,760
Speaker 1: I'm, of course, I'm actually just learning about myself.

140
00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:49,320
Speaker 3: And so I was listening to this one episode from

141
00:07:49,360 --> 00:07:53,720
Speaker 3: a podcast called Thrive while Loving an addict and the

142
00:07:53,840 --> 00:07:56,120
Speaker 3: episode is called drowning with them is not the same

143
00:07:56,200 --> 00:08:00,200
Speaker 3: as loving them, and the guest is doctor Wanda Kay,

144
00:08:00,280 --> 00:08:05,000
Speaker 3: who was just awesome and it's kind of a stretch,

145
00:08:05,400 --> 00:08:08,480
Speaker 3: but the way that she was talking about loving an

146
00:08:08,560 --> 00:08:13,200
Speaker 3: addict and its overlap with being in a relationship with

147
00:08:13,240 --> 00:08:18,800
Speaker 3: a narcissist was really interesting, because, yeah, she was saying, like,

148
00:08:19,320 --> 00:08:22,960
Speaker 3: it's not that they're clinically a narcissist, but they are

149
00:08:23,520 --> 00:08:25,920
Speaker 3: due to their addiction. When they are in addiction and

150
00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:31,720
Speaker 3: not actively in recovery, their lives become extremely self focused

151
00:08:32,240 --> 00:08:34,920
Speaker 3: because they're obsessed with the thing that they're addicted to,

152
00:08:35,360 --> 00:08:39,560
Speaker 3: and so they're pulling from the same toolbox as the narcissist,

153
00:08:39,679 --> 00:08:42,840
Speaker 3: and so some of the results of the impact on

154
00:08:42,920 --> 00:08:45,800
Speaker 3: the partner are going to be the same recovery on

155
00:08:45,800 --> 00:08:47,400
Speaker 3: the part of the partner is going to look similar.

156
00:08:47,679 --> 00:08:50,120
Speaker 3: But it doesn't mean that they're clinically a narcissist. It

157
00:08:50,200 --> 00:08:54,280
Speaker 3: just means they're engaging some of the same tools. Yeah,

158
00:08:54,360 --> 00:08:56,520
Speaker 3: And then on the flip side, I just liked this

159
00:08:56,640 --> 00:08:59,520
Speaker 3: like toolbox metaphor that she was using, because she was

160
00:08:59,520 --> 00:09:02,800
Speaker 3: also saying, like, there's also stuff in like the codependence

161
00:09:02,840 --> 00:09:08,080
Speaker 3: toolbox that we can use too much and then we

162
00:09:08,120 --> 00:09:11,240
Speaker 3: are behaving codependently, or we can use in a healthier

163
00:09:11,280 --> 00:09:14,679
Speaker 3: way to a smaller degree, like caring about people is

164
00:09:15,200 --> 00:09:17,880
Speaker 3: a good thing until we do it too much. I

165
00:09:17,960 --> 00:09:21,640
Speaker 3: just really appreciated this like nuanced perspective of like all

166
00:09:21,679 --> 00:09:24,040
Speaker 3: of these things are a spectrum. These like black and

167
00:09:24,080 --> 00:09:27,920
Speaker 3: white labels are not necessarily helpful for anyone, and it's

168
00:09:27,960 --> 00:09:33,600
Speaker 3: really just about recognizing patterns and when they're good for

169
00:09:33,640 --> 00:09:36,400
Speaker 3: you and when they're not. I love that, And I

170
00:09:36,440 --> 00:09:38,800
Speaker 3: will say in therapy, I've been working a lot on

171
00:09:38,840 --> 00:09:43,360
Speaker 3: the fact that religion can often, not always, but often

172
00:09:43,640 --> 00:09:49,320
Speaker 3: be narcissistic. So you know, if you have a belief

173
00:09:49,360 --> 00:09:54,680
Speaker 3: system that's I'm super super special and everyone else's going,

174
00:09:55,160 --> 00:09:59,839
Speaker 3: you might not be a narcissist, but your worldview is narcissist.

175
00:10:00,800 --> 00:10:05,280
Speaker 3: So yeah, that's an interesting little package to unwrap as well.

176
00:10:05,640 --> 00:10:06,080
Speaker 1: Totally.

177
00:10:06,120 --> 00:10:09,080
Speaker 3: I love that longtime listeners know, you know, I've gotten

178
00:10:09,120 --> 00:10:12,040
Speaker 3: a version to the overuse of the word narcissist, and

179
00:10:12,640 --> 00:10:16,840
Speaker 3: that label I think is like just inherently often not helpful.

180
00:10:16,960 --> 00:10:20,400
Speaker 3: But when we can acknowledge that there are like some patterns,

181
00:10:20,440 --> 00:10:24,000
Speaker 3: some overlaps, some tools, you know, like that can be

182
00:10:24,040 --> 00:10:25,800
Speaker 3: a little bit more nuanced and helpful.

183
00:10:26,080 --> 00:10:26,400
Speaker 1: Cool.

184
00:10:27,240 --> 00:10:29,720
Speaker 4: Yeah, I can't wait to listen to that podcast, but

185
00:10:29,720 --> 00:10:32,800
Speaker 4: I don't want to give another podcast my listens.

186
00:10:32,840 --> 00:10:34,880
Speaker 1: I only listen to trust Me. Just kidding.

187
00:10:35,920 --> 00:10:38,040
Speaker 3: You can just listen back to this episode and it'll

188
00:10:38,080 --> 00:10:38,920
Speaker 3: achieve the same thing.

189
00:10:40,679 --> 00:10:55,960
Speaker 4: Speaking of trust Me, shall we talk to Niki the

190
00:10:56,080 --> 00:11:00,640
Speaker 4: Jezebel Spirit as well. I had never really been familiar

191
00:11:00,720 --> 00:11:02,599
Speaker 4: with that terminology.

192
00:11:02,400 --> 00:11:04,559
Speaker 1: What does that look like? Because that seems to me.

193
00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:08,480
Speaker 5: Yeah, well that's used in all five cults I was in.

194
00:11:08,679 --> 00:11:12,200
Speaker 5: That was used a lot, So I can't say one

195
00:11:12,240 --> 00:11:16,040
Speaker 5: more than the other. But in some instances, people on

196
00:11:16,080 --> 00:11:18,480
Speaker 5: the lower level they look at the Jezebel Spirit is

197
00:11:18,640 --> 00:11:21,520
Speaker 5: you know, a woman that's very lustful and you know,

198
00:11:21,760 --> 00:11:24,560
Speaker 5: just very promiscuous, how she's dressing, how she's acting, and

199
00:11:24,600 --> 00:11:27,360
Speaker 5: she's looking to take somebody's husband away from them, or

200
00:11:27,679 --> 00:11:30,200
Speaker 5: you know, to have a man be brought into sin

201
00:11:30,320 --> 00:11:32,560
Speaker 5: because of how she's dressed and how she's you know,

202
00:11:33,200 --> 00:11:35,240
Speaker 5: I've had that label put on me. And some of

203
00:11:35,240 --> 00:11:38,920
Speaker 5: that also is you know, connected with you know, how

204
00:11:38,960 --> 00:11:42,120
Speaker 5: people have stereotypes of the over sexualization of black women

205
00:11:42,160 --> 00:11:44,520
Speaker 5: and all that stuff. So that is a real level

206
00:11:45,000 --> 00:11:46,959
Speaker 5: you start getting into the other streams I was in,

207
00:11:47,400 --> 00:11:50,240
Speaker 5: you know, the Jezebel spirit. It's what they call a principality.

208
00:11:50,280 --> 00:11:52,080
Speaker 5: So it's bigger than just something that's sitting on your

209
00:11:52,080 --> 00:11:55,480
Speaker 5: shoulder influence and you it's over a region now, and

210
00:11:56,040 --> 00:12:00,160
Speaker 5: that you know, speaks about a control and manipulation and

211
00:12:00,920 --> 00:12:05,120
Speaker 5: witchcraft and which all these terminologies like you know.

212
00:12:05,200 --> 00:12:06,839
Speaker 2: What have I been doing the past ten years?

213
00:12:06,920 --> 00:12:09,800
Speaker 3: Letting go of Oh my god, So a principality like

214
00:12:09,840 --> 00:12:12,040
Speaker 3: could LA be under the Jezebel spirit?

215
00:12:12,120 --> 00:12:16,800
Speaker 2: Oh yes, Oh yes, they believe that I really might be. No,

216
00:12:16,920 --> 00:12:17,800
Speaker 2: they believe that.

217
00:12:17,840 --> 00:12:31,359
Speaker 3: And certainly my block is.

218
00:12:25,720 --> 00:12:27,400
Speaker 2: Let me see no.

219
00:12:27,520 --> 00:12:29,720
Speaker 5: But when you think about how we even got to

220
00:12:29,800 --> 00:12:33,200
Speaker 5: a lot of the laws, that's been crafted in Project

221
00:12:33,200 --> 00:12:36,520
Speaker 5: twenty twenty five and the Heritage Foundation before that.

222
00:12:36,679 --> 00:12:39,160
Speaker 2: There is you've probably heard of this with all the guests.

223
00:12:39,160 --> 00:12:42,920
Speaker 5: You have the seven mountain mandate, which is a perspective

224
00:12:42,960 --> 00:12:47,400
Speaker 5: of there's at least seven mountains or spheres of influence

225
00:12:47,559 --> 00:12:51,000
Speaker 5: and not you know, the Christians are at the bottom.

226
00:12:51,200 --> 00:12:54,120
Speaker 5: Haven't been taking the apex of the mountain and taking

227
00:12:54,120 --> 00:12:57,000
Speaker 5: it for christ We haven't been taken dominion. I'm saying

228
00:12:57,040 --> 00:12:59,280
Speaker 5: we when I was in it, I'm not in anymore.

229
00:12:59,320 --> 00:13:01,400
Speaker 5: But this is what they believed, and so do you

230
00:13:01,400 --> 00:13:05,080
Speaker 5: have the mountain of family, a government of arts and entertainment,

231
00:13:05,520 --> 00:13:10,600
Speaker 5: of education, of you know, are on finance and stuff

232
00:13:10,640 --> 00:13:13,920
Speaker 5: like that, and so these different mountains. They believe that

233
00:13:14,360 --> 00:13:17,960
Speaker 5: God is wanting the Christians to shake off their self

234
00:13:18,480 --> 00:13:20,560
Speaker 5: get out of this. God loves me, Jesus loved me,

235
00:13:20,640 --> 00:13:22,600
Speaker 5: My neighbor loves me. I love them. I'm going home

236
00:13:22,920 --> 00:13:25,280
Speaker 5: and look at the Bible as a manifesto, as a

237
00:13:25,320 --> 00:13:29,000
Speaker 5: military document to actually carry this stuff out and get

238
00:13:29,040 --> 00:13:31,400
Speaker 5: to the top of the mountain. We don't want Kanye

239
00:13:31,480 --> 00:13:33,280
Speaker 5: at the top of the mountain. Well they might now

240
00:13:33,320 --> 00:13:35,439
Speaker 5: because you know, but that's.

241
00:13:35,240 --> 00:13:35,760
Speaker 2: What they think.

242
00:13:35,800 --> 00:13:38,800
Speaker 5: We don't want a Jezebel spirit at the top of

243
00:13:38,840 --> 00:13:42,439
Speaker 5: the mountain, because that means they're influencing all of Arsen's entertainment.

244
00:13:42,520 --> 00:13:45,160
Speaker 5: We want someone that is a believer in Christ and

245
00:13:45,240 --> 00:13:47,800
Speaker 5: have the same philosophy to get to the top of

246
00:13:47,840 --> 00:13:51,320
Speaker 5: the mountain. And at first they weren't really keen on Trump,

247
00:13:51,800 --> 00:13:53,760
Speaker 5: but they feel like Trump has given them an open

248
00:13:53,800 --> 00:13:57,520
Speaker 5: door to get the different representatives that they agree with

249
00:13:57,600 --> 00:13:58,480
Speaker 5: to these top.

250
00:13:58,440 --> 00:13:59,960
Speaker 2: Of the mountains of influence.

251
00:14:00,200 --> 00:14:03,200
Speaker 5: And so this is where they start doing strategy where

252
00:14:03,240 --> 00:14:05,480
Speaker 5: it's like, all right, we need to pray, we need

253
00:14:05,520 --> 00:14:08,120
Speaker 5: to take the map and start breaking it down. And so, okay,

254
00:14:08,559 --> 00:14:10,679
Speaker 5: somebody who's going to get into the mountain of education.

255
00:14:10,840 --> 00:14:12,959
Speaker 5: You go back to school, you twenty year old, so

256
00:14:13,000 --> 00:14:15,720
Speaker 5: that you can become a professor, you can run for

257
00:14:15,800 --> 00:14:18,160
Speaker 5: the school board, and you can go over in that area.

258
00:14:18,400 --> 00:14:20,680
Speaker 3: It is project twenty twenty five shits just like fully

259
00:14:20,800 --> 00:14:23,640
Speaker 3: planning the takeover of America.

260
00:14:23,760 --> 00:14:24,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, basically, And.

261
00:14:24,600 --> 00:14:27,280
Speaker 5: I rubbed shoulders with a lot of these leaders when

262
00:14:27,320 --> 00:14:30,200
Speaker 5: they were in you know, strategy format and coming up

263
00:14:30,240 --> 00:14:33,480
Speaker 5: with all of this language before they had an open

264
00:14:33,560 --> 00:14:35,160
Speaker 5: door to actually do this.

265
00:14:35,200 --> 00:14:37,400
Speaker 1: Wait, can you tell us more about that, like what

266
00:14:37,400 --> 00:14:38,400
Speaker 1: what were those rooms?

267
00:14:38,440 --> 00:14:38,520
Speaker 2: Like?

268
00:14:38,560 --> 00:14:39,280
Speaker 1: Who is there?

269
00:14:39,480 --> 00:14:41,840
Speaker 2: What was the name?

270
00:14:42,880 --> 00:14:47,320
Speaker 5: Well, I mean you don't, but you know, being a

271
00:14:47,320 --> 00:14:49,080
Speaker 5: part of I HOP, I will say, out of all

272
00:14:49,080 --> 00:14:51,680
Speaker 5: the different cults I was a part of, they had

273
00:14:51,760 --> 00:14:55,080
Speaker 5: so many gateways to all these other different type of ministries.

274
00:14:55,160 --> 00:14:57,320
Speaker 5: And so yes, I was a part of I HOP

275
00:14:57,680 --> 00:14:59,120
Speaker 5: that was a part of a lot of other ministries,

276
00:14:59,200 --> 00:15:01,320
Speaker 5: just not in in front of them in the person.

277
00:15:01,760 --> 00:15:05,040
Speaker 5: And so I went deeper than even you know, I

278
00:15:05,120 --> 00:15:07,360
Speaker 5: was a part of a ministry which is my fifth cult,

279
00:15:07,960 --> 00:15:10,760
Speaker 5: where it was mostly online and on the phone. So

280
00:15:11,040 --> 00:15:13,920
Speaker 5: we were part of something called Joel's Army, prayer army,

281
00:15:14,040 --> 00:15:18,400
Speaker 5: and we would pray, oh no, Joel Ostein is just

282
00:15:18,440 --> 00:15:21,240
Speaker 5: smiling and you know, taking money, But this.

283
00:15:21,200 --> 00:15:23,400
Speaker 2: Is this is this is we take.

284
00:15:23,880 --> 00:15:26,040
Speaker 5: We pay attention to what's going on politically, not just

285
00:15:26,040 --> 00:15:30,440
Speaker 5: in America but globally, and we pray into all this

286
00:15:30,520 --> 00:15:32,880
Speaker 5: stuff on the phone. And then they would have week

287
00:15:33,000 --> 00:15:37,200
Speaker 5: long prayer intensives and so they want one week of

288
00:15:37,320 --> 00:15:40,400
Speaker 5: being Washington, d C. Another being Kansas City, another being Seattle,

289
00:15:40,440 --> 00:15:43,080
Speaker 5: different places like that. And when you come together, we're

290
00:15:43,080 --> 00:15:46,560
Speaker 5: talking about almost a thousand people a thousand intercessors, and

291
00:15:46,800 --> 00:15:50,520
Speaker 5: that whole week we would spend hours in worship, hours

292
00:15:50,600 --> 00:15:54,120
Speaker 5: in intercession, and then we would have like, you know,

293
00:15:54,680 --> 00:15:57,680
Speaker 5: a prompter with Alex Jones.

294
00:15:57,440 --> 00:16:00,160
Speaker 2: Videos or conspiracy.

295
00:15:59,480 --> 00:16:02,520
Speaker 5: Theory stuff of merging it with the prophetic, merging it

296
00:16:02,560 --> 00:16:05,880
Speaker 5: with the Christian nationalism stuff, and we would pray into

297
00:16:05,920 --> 00:16:06,480
Speaker 5: these things.

298
00:16:06,680 --> 00:16:08,400
Speaker 1: So oh gosh.

299
00:16:08,520 --> 00:16:11,440
Speaker 4: And then you know, people are always like, let's not

300
00:16:11,560 --> 00:16:14,800
Speaker 4: talk politics, let's not talk faith. Then that's a very

301
00:16:15,320 --> 00:16:18,840
Speaker 4: popular trope that you speak a lot about in your podcast.

302
00:16:19,120 --> 00:16:22,360
Speaker 4: But it's like, oh, okay, if you're not discussing these things,

303
00:16:22,400 --> 00:16:24,560
Speaker 4: then we're kind of living in a.

304
00:16:24,560 --> 00:16:26,600
Speaker 1: World that sucks.

305
00:16:27,120 --> 00:16:30,760
Speaker 4: Right, Let's just agree to maybe disagree outside of it,

306
00:16:30,800 --> 00:16:33,840
Speaker 4: but let's not have real dialogues about it. And because

307
00:16:33,880 --> 00:16:36,320
Speaker 4: it's such a sensitive subject, I can't remember if we

308
00:16:36,360 --> 00:16:38,040
Speaker 4: talked about this at the top of it. Our view

309
00:16:38,240 --> 00:16:40,000
Speaker 4: was you and I talking about it. But there there

310
00:16:40,040 --> 00:16:42,800
Speaker 4: are so many beautiful things in the Black church. Yeah

311
00:16:42,840 --> 00:16:44,720
Speaker 4: that it's a sensitive subject.

312
00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:46,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, but it's not just the Black Church.

313
00:16:46,480 --> 00:16:49,800
Speaker 5: As any people say, Thanksgiving time, religion and politics do

314
00:16:49,880 --> 00:16:52,760
Speaker 5: not bring up. You know, if everybody is to survive

315
00:16:52,960 --> 00:16:56,320
Speaker 5: that thanksgiven day, don't bring up those topics. Well, while

316
00:16:56,800 --> 00:17:00,000
Speaker 5: a lot of us weren't having those conversations, these ministry

317
00:17:00,200 --> 00:17:03,400
Speaker 5: that were part of they've been having those conversations, and

318
00:17:03,440 --> 00:17:06,280
Speaker 5: they've been taking it outside of just the prayer room

319
00:17:06,359 --> 00:17:10,960
Speaker 5: now and moving it into Washington and moving it into

320
00:17:11,119 --> 00:17:14,880
Speaker 5: now our homes, into our gas tanks, you know, into

321
00:17:15,359 --> 00:17:19,600
Speaker 5: how life is going in America. And for me personally,

322
00:17:20,080 --> 00:17:22,879
Speaker 5: it's crazy because I lived a lot of this before

323
00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:25,400
Speaker 5: it came to be and now I'm out of it,

324
00:17:26,040 --> 00:17:29,040
Speaker 5: but it's still impacted me. And I'm not trying to

325
00:17:29,040 --> 00:17:31,120
Speaker 5: be morbid, but you know, people are like, oh my gosh,

326
00:17:31,400 --> 00:17:33,600
Speaker 5: you're in five different cults. I'm like, have you ever

327
00:17:33,640 --> 00:17:35,120
Speaker 5: been in a cult? No, I ain't never been a cult.

328
00:17:35,160 --> 00:17:36,919
Speaker 5: I said, yes, you have, Like.

329
00:17:36,920 --> 00:17:38,000
Speaker 2: We're in a cult right now.

330
00:17:39,520 --> 00:17:42,280
Speaker 5: Well, you know, it may not hit you fully personally,

331
00:17:42,320 --> 00:17:45,080
Speaker 5: but a lot of what's going on is very cultish,

332
00:17:45,200 --> 00:17:48,320
Speaker 5: you know, but you know, to get back to your question,

333
00:17:48,400 --> 00:17:51,280
Speaker 5: you know, on the Black Church, it's just not having

334
00:17:51,280 --> 00:17:52,160
Speaker 5: these conversations.

335
00:17:52,240 --> 00:17:52,400
Speaker 2: Now.

336
00:17:52,400 --> 00:17:55,600
Speaker 5: They may talk politics, they may talk religion, but they

337
00:17:55,640 --> 00:17:59,480
Speaker 5: won't talk about abuse that's been in the family system

338
00:17:59,800 --> 00:18:03,040
Speaker 5: because somebody might have been abused in the church system

339
00:18:03,080 --> 00:18:06,320
Speaker 5: and it started to intersect into the family. So there's

340
00:18:06,359 --> 00:18:09,800
Speaker 5: a lot of conversation that's not being had even around

341
00:18:09,800 --> 00:18:13,160
Speaker 5: these topics, like I am so happy as a cult

342
00:18:13,160 --> 00:18:17,359
Speaker 5: survivor now to see so many documentaries and more people

343
00:18:17,440 --> 00:18:20,639
Speaker 5: are having conferences and are talking about it. My heart

344
00:18:20,800 --> 00:18:24,600
Speaker 5: is to see that for the bipop community, but especially

345
00:18:24,600 --> 00:18:29,480
Speaker 5: particularly black community, because you know, there's all these myths that, oh, well,

346
00:18:29,960 --> 00:18:32,600
Speaker 5: you know, cults are a white people problem, right, this

347
00:18:32,640 --> 00:18:35,080
Speaker 5: is what they think, and I, even though I know

348
00:18:35,119 --> 00:18:38,720
Speaker 5: that's not true, I can't really contest it when they're like, well,

349
00:18:38,720 --> 00:18:39,920
Speaker 5: look at all the documentaries.

350
00:18:39,960 --> 00:18:42,760
Speaker 1: Every documentary, they're like, where's our story?

351
00:18:42,880 --> 00:18:44,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, but a lot don't want to tell their story.

352
00:18:44,880 --> 00:18:48,000
Speaker 5: And that's something that's been ingrained in us historically because

353
00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:48,800
Speaker 5: of what we went through.

354
00:18:49,080 --> 00:18:52,320
Speaker 2: We don't talk about it. We just we just hold it.

355
00:18:52,720 --> 00:18:54,880
Speaker 5: We dance through it, we shout through it, we laugh

356
00:18:54,920 --> 00:18:57,760
Speaker 5: through it, but we don't talk about it. We should

357
00:18:57,800 --> 00:19:00,320
Speaker 5: release it, but we don't really know how. Oh yeah,

358
00:19:00,320 --> 00:19:02,800
Speaker 5: maybe we can go to church and release it. But

359
00:19:02,960 --> 00:19:05,959
Speaker 5: we're not talking about how to break certain you know, cycles,

360
00:19:06,080 --> 00:19:08,680
Speaker 5: unless it's dealing with something spiritual. You want to break

361
00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:11,920
Speaker 5: a generational curse. You gotta pray, you gotta fast. That's

362
00:19:11,960 --> 00:19:14,400
Speaker 5: what I did. And it wasn't until I came out

363
00:19:14,480 --> 00:19:16,720
Speaker 5: of all of this, all of these cults, and I

364
00:19:16,800 --> 00:19:20,400
Speaker 5: started to you know, the smelling salt, like I said earlier,

365
00:19:20,440 --> 00:19:22,919
Speaker 5: came to me and I started saying, Okay, I'm the

366
00:19:22,960 --> 00:19:25,399
Speaker 5: common denominator here. I'm not saying it's my fault. We

367
00:19:25,480 --> 00:19:28,600
Speaker 5: got to figure something out. I can't go to another cult.

368
00:19:29,160 --> 00:19:32,520
Speaker 5: What the hell happened? And this is when I actually said,

369
00:19:32,800 --> 00:19:35,680
Speaker 5: let me do something different, because I've been insanity, doing

370
00:19:35,720 --> 00:19:38,399
Speaker 5: the same thing with each cult. And that's when I

371
00:19:38,400 --> 00:19:42,240
Speaker 5: started reading books Margaret sang Or, Stephen Hassan, Yanya Lalch.

372
00:19:42,280 --> 00:19:44,600
Speaker 5: I started, you know, seeing if I could find a

373
00:19:44,600 --> 00:19:47,280
Speaker 5: couple of documentaries. At the time, definitely went to therapy,

374
00:19:47,400 --> 00:19:49,120
Speaker 5: but they didn't know what to do with me. They're

375
00:19:49,160 --> 00:19:49,919
Speaker 5: like five cults.

376
00:19:50,560 --> 00:19:53,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, if they don't specialize, like.

377
00:19:53,200 --> 00:19:55,240
Speaker 2: You said, narcissism, we may be able to deal with that.

378
00:19:55,480 --> 00:19:58,439
Speaker 5: But I didn't despise it because at the time, my

379
00:19:58,920 --> 00:20:02,080
Speaker 5: you know, PTSD was so acute. I just, you know,

380
00:20:02,800 --> 00:20:04,560
Speaker 5: I took what I could get, but I still did

381
00:20:04,600 --> 00:20:07,639
Speaker 5: my homework on on my end because it wasn't just

382
00:20:07,680 --> 00:20:10,439
Speaker 5: about me. Now my teenage daughter who has been through

383
00:20:10,480 --> 00:20:13,600
Speaker 5: all the colts with me. She needs to get understanding

384
00:20:13,760 --> 00:20:16,760
Speaker 5: when she's ready. So that was kind of my motivating factor.

385
00:20:16,760 --> 00:20:19,159
Speaker 5: I was never planned on doing this work. It was

386
00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:21,600
Speaker 5: just something where I wanted to get better. I did

387
00:20:21,640 --> 00:20:24,320
Speaker 5: not want five colts and all this stuff I just

388
00:20:24,400 --> 00:20:26,840
Speaker 5: talked about to rob me of the rest.

389
00:20:26,600 --> 00:20:27,080
Speaker 2: Of my life.

390
00:20:27,600 --> 00:20:30,520
Speaker 5: I wanted to enjoy life. I wanted to not wait

391
00:20:30,560 --> 00:20:34,919
Speaker 5: for my boas, but go out there, thank you. You know,

392
00:20:35,160 --> 00:20:38,000
Speaker 5: I wanted to I wanted to explore. I wanted to learn.

393
00:20:38,040 --> 00:20:40,119
Speaker 5: I jumped out the fish bowl and swimming in the

394
00:20:40,160 --> 00:20:42,000
Speaker 5: ocean these past ten years.

395
00:20:42,240 --> 00:20:44,280
Speaker 1: And you are church.

396
00:20:45,280 --> 00:20:48,359
Speaker 2: You heard that one, right, don't you beat out that fishbowl?

397
00:20:49,960 --> 00:20:50,199
Speaker 2: You know?

398
00:20:50,720 --> 00:20:50,920
Speaker 5: Yeah?

399
00:20:51,040 --> 00:20:52,960
Speaker 2: I just I said I want to live.

400
00:20:53,359 --> 00:20:55,680
Speaker 5: You know, It's something I say often on my podcast

401
00:20:55,800 --> 00:20:57,879
Speaker 5: or just the different people. I'm like, I took the

402
00:20:57,920 --> 00:21:00,239
Speaker 5: pen back of my life and now I write my

403
00:21:00,280 --> 00:21:03,480
Speaker 5: own life story. A narcissist doesn't have it, a cult

404
00:21:03,520 --> 00:21:06,080
Speaker 5: leader doesn't have it. And I'll be damned if you're

405
00:21:06,119 --> 00:21:09,040
Speaker 5: going to let the rest of my years be you know,

406
00:21:09,080 --> 00:21:11,840
Speaker 5: I'm stressed out over what they did to me. I'm

407
00:21:11,840 --> 00:21:13,760
Speaker 5: still healing, I'm still in therapy and everything like that,

408
00:21:13,840 --> 00:21:17,120
Speaker 5: but I want to live, you know, as much as

409
00:21:17,119 --> 00:21:19,240
Speaker 5: I can before whatever they say is going to happen.

410
00:21:21,119 --> 00:21:21,560
Speaker 1: There.

411
00:21:21,880 --> 00:21:24,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, well and that's and that's just really quickly before

412
00:21:24,280 --> 00:21:26,960
Speaker 4: we move on. I mean, the world might possibly be ending, yeah,

413
00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:29,480
Speaker 4: which is very stressful, but it doesn't mean it's because

414
00:21:29,520 --> 00:21:32,480
Speaker 4: of God exactly, and just because.

415
00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:34,320
Speaker 1: There's of us, it's because of us.

416
00:21:34,359 --> 00:21:36,240
Speaker 4: But it doesn't help that there's a book that says

417
00:21:36,240 --> 00:21:38,560
Speaker 4: it's going to happen that people believe in, Like that's

418
00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:42,960
Speaker 4: just a very like easy uh what's the word, like

419
00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:43,600
Speaker 4: like right.

420
00:21:43,800 --> 00:21:45,760
Speaker 1: And it will come and it'll come.

421
00:21:45,840 --> 00:21:47,760
Speaker 4: Like you can't just give people a book and say

422
00:21:47,760 --> 00:21:50,679
Speaker 4: this is real and the world ends and expects that

423
00:21:50,760 --> 00:21:51,680
Speaker 4: not to have an effect.

424
00:21:51,800 --> 00:21:55,560
Speaker 3: Well, we cherry pick what we see and what we've done.

425
00:21:55,600 --> 00:21:58,240
Speaker 1: But I'm just saying, like it causes wars.

426
00:21:58,560 --> 00:22:01,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a justification of wars that we're going to

427
00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:03,520
Speaker 3: happen because people wanted power anyway.

428
00:22:03,640 --> 00:22:07,040
Speaker 5: But yeah, well, I mean even now because of the

429
00:22:07,040 --> 00:22:11,400
Speaker 5: current administration and their connection with you know, Christian nationalism

430
00:22:11,400 --> 00:22:13,720
Speaker 5: and all that stuff like that. A lot of what

431
00:22:13,960 --> 00:22:16,280
Speaker 5: I was under and was preached and this is going

432
00:22:16,320 --> 00:22:18,320
Speaker 5: to happen. It's going to happen. They're trying to make

433
00:22:18,359 --> 00:22:18,800
Speaker 5: it happen.

434
00:22:18,960 --> 00:22:22,240
Speaker 2: They're changing the law. Yeah, God is doing this. No,

435
00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:23,280
Speaker 2: you're doing.

436
00:22:35,040 --> 00:22:37,320
Speaker 3: You talked a little bit on your podcast about this

437
00:22:37,520 --> 00:22:41,720
Speaker 3: biblical idea of obedience and submissiveness and how that is

438
00:22:41,760 --> 00:22:46,359
Speaker 3: connected to white supremacy and there was some internalization of

439
00:22:46,400 --> 00:22:47,439
Speaker 3: that potentially going on.

440
00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:51,600
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, which makes recovery from religious trauma and coal

441
00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:56,320
Speaker 5: involvement even more difficult for the black survivor because of

442
00:22:56,520 --> 00:23:00,560
Speaker 5: the historical trauma, you know, and you know, Christianity was

443
00:23:00,600 --> 00:23:03,960
Speaker 5: forced on us. Even those that are still believers, they

444
00:23:04,040 --> 00:23:07,520
Speaker 5: have their issues about, you know, the origins of all this,

445
00:23:07,800 --> 00:23:10,080
Speaker 5: but when you can look from it outside of a

446
00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:13,199
Speaker 5: religious and lens, you can see, you know, it was

447
00:23:13,240 --> 00:23:15,760
Speaker 5: taken from us and it was forced upon us like

448
00:23:15,760 --> 00:23:18,720
Speaker 5: an introject almost, you know. And you know, now we

449
00:23:18,880 --> 00:23:20,360
Speaker 5: have this system.

450
00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:22,120
Speaker 1: Like through American slavery.

451
00:23:21,840 --> 00:23:26,600
Speaker 5: Yes, yeah, so through us being enslaved. And they even

452
00:23:26,640 --> 00:23:29,600
Speaker 5: had a specific Bible for those who would eventually find

453
00:23:29,600 --> 00:23:32,880
Speaker 5: out how to read, called the Slave Bible. I think

454
00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:36,000
Speaker 5: Fisk University has a copy and then maybe some another

455
00:23:36,040 --> 00:23:38,240
Speaker 5: country on the other side of the planet has one.

456
00:23:38,320 --> 00:23:42,400
Speaker 5: But there were passages from the Bible removed that talked

457
00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:46,280
Speaker 5: anything about emancipation, like, you know, anything dealing with you know,

458
00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:50,600
Speaker 5: Moses and the Israelites and God being involved in setting

459
00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:54,679
Speaker 5: the captives rey. All that language was removed, you know,

460
00:23:54,800 --> 00:23:58,119
Speaker 5: so that it would not incite, you know, a riot

461
00:23:58,240 --> 00:24:01,000
Speaker 5: or something like, well, if he delivered them, what about us.

462
00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:05,440
Speaker 5: But you know, the scriptures about being subservient, obeying your

463
00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:07,680
Speaker 5: masters because they have rule over you, they have watch

464
00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:11,200
Speaker 5: over your souls, those were emphasized. And so the ones

465
00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:13,360
Speaker 5: that couldn't read, they found the one that could read,

466
00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:15,119
Speaker 5: and if they could read, then they would read the

467
00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:17,920
Speaker 5: slave Bible. And then they were encouraged to preach this

468
00:24:18,119 --> 00:24:20,199
Speaker 5: back to the rest of the black community. And so

469
00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:23,920
Speaker 5: there is a system within us, even down to our DNA,

470
00:24:24,280 --> 00:24:28,040
Speaker 5: that we're supposed to suffer. Even now it's twenty twenty six,

471
00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:32,160
Speaker 5: so many there's so many places where you can see

472
00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:34,600
Speaker 5: some of this is still the systemic racism is still

473
00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:38,520
Speaker 5: alive and well. And this, you know, this was passed

474
00:24:38,560 --> 00:24:42,320
Speaker 5: down to us. And so that colliding with the suffering

475
00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:44,840
Speaker 5: messages in the Bible that you know, you can go

476
00:24:45,160 --> 00:24:47,600
Speaker 5: in any Black church or even any type of church.

477
00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:51,199
Speaker 5: And here now it has a different ring to it

478
00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:54,080
Speaker 5: for us, you know. So again back to my original story,

479
00:24:54,119 --> 00:24:56,680
Speaker 5: it was harder for me to just stop going to church.

480
00:24:56,720 --> 00:24:59,760
Speaker 5: It was harder for me to leave some of these

481
00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:03,440
Speaker 5: cold take places because I'm supposed to suffer for Christ.

482
00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:05,320
Speaker 5: You know. Now, I already had it in my dna

483
00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:08,120
Speaker 5: to suffer because of what my people have been through.

484
00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:11,040
Speaker 5: But you know that combined with I'm supposed to suffer

485
00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:14,080
Speaker 5: for Christ, there's no way I'm just gonna take a

486
00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:17,240
Speaker 5: hit and leave. I'm not weak, you know, I'm a

487
00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:19,760
Speaker 5: Black woman, like this is nothing. You know, I'm going

488
00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:22,600
Speaker 5: to be a soldier for the Lord. And so these

489
00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:26,639
Speaker 5: type of messages are harder to walk away from this

490
00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:29,960
Speaker 5: stuff when abuse is so apparent, even if it's not

491
00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:31,080
Speaker 5: personal witnessing.

492
00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:32,639
Speaker 2: You know, other people.

493
00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:35,800
Speaker 5: There's a used to be friend of mine and she

494
00:25:36,040 --> 00:25:40,879
Speaker 5: went to she would frequent different intercession type of churches,

495
00:25:41,119 --> 00:25:44,199
Speaker 5: you know, and spiritual warfare, and the Black community, you know,

496
00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:48,080
Speaker 5: they take it seriously. There's always the devil, this, the

497
00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:50,399
Speaker 5: devil that we're binding this, we're cutting this off, and

498
00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:54,359
Speaker 5: especially when you start getting with across the diaspora with

499
00:25:54,680 --> 00:25:57,639
Speaker 5: the Caribbean Church, the Black Church, and then over in

500
00:25:57,720 --> 00:25:59,919
Speaker 5: Africa and different things like that. They take spiritual war

501
00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:03,640
Speaker 5: are very serious. They take the devil to be very serious.

502
00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:05,360
Speaker 5: You don't mess with him, you don't play with him,

503
00:26:05,359 --> 00:26:10,800
Speaker 5: you buying them. So it's very active. And so she

504
00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:16,600
Speaker 5: went to one of the three night fasting and praying services,

505
00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:18,520
Speaker 5: and they were very strict. She had braids on hair.

506
00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:20,920
Speaker 5: She couldn't wear braids, couldn't wear wids, couldn't wear braids,

507
00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:22,520
Speaker 5: take it all off. He had to go, you know,

508
00:26:22,600 --> 00:26:26,560
Speaker 5: bare bone, natural, no makeup, no nothing. And she didn't

509
00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:28,360
Speaker 5: tell me the whole story because it was too traumatic.

510
00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:30,960
Speaker 5: I didn't understand then then it was traumatic. I understand now.

511
00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:33,640
Speaker 5: And she was just saying how she They were asking

512
00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:37,119
Speaker 5: who was in the congregation that was still single women

513
00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:40,520
Speaker 5: who were not married, and she went to the front

514
00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:43,040
Speaker 5: and the stuff they said over her. I'm not gonna

515
00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:48,080
Speaker 5: repeat it because it's just that traumatizing, but they basically

516
00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:51,760
Speaker 5: blamed her and basically saying that she had demonic forces

517
00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:55,119
Speaker 5: or entities on her as to why she wasn't.

518
00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:56,640
Speaker 2: Married at that point.

519
00:26:56,760 --> 00:27:00,200
Speaker 5: And so they started to do a deliverance on her

520
00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:03,200
Speaker 5: in front of everybody, and deliverance that's the same language

521
00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:06,040
Speaker 5: as like exorcism for like the Catholic church or whatever.

522
00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:09,160
Speaker 5: So already you're shamed and thinking something's wrong with you

523
00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:12,479
Speaker 5: as a person. You're being and you're the reason why

524
00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:15,000
Speaker 5: you're not getting married, And her mom was there and

525
00:27:15,080 --> 00:27:16,359
Speaker 5: they encouraged it.

526
00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:22,720
Speaker 4: So I didn't realize that public humiliation was so prominent.

527
00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:25,359
Speaker 4: I mean, you talk a lot in the podcast about

528
00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:28,960
Speaker 4: people being called to the front, and I think it's

529
00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:31,000
Speaker 4: called like church or something.

530
00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:34,560
Speaker 5: Oh no, that's not church, that's the trauma and abuse, okay,

531
00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:36,800
Speaker 5: which but I'm glad you mentioned that because that is

532
00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:39,639
Speaker 5: something that myself and my co hosts when we are

533
00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:41,920
Speaker 5: having our support groups that we have twice a month

534
00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:46,399
Speaker 5: and working with other survivors, we like to distinguish between

535
00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:49,600
Speaker 5: church hurt and religious trauma. I am happy that the

536
00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:51,880
Speaker 5: conversation is being had a little bit in the Black

537
00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:56,280
Speaker 5: church about spiritual abuse or what have you. But they're

538
00:27:56,359 --> 00:28:00,400
Speaker 5: using the labeled church hurt, and I feel like, obviously

539
00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:03,720
Speaker 5: it cheapens it and it's not really truly reflective as

540
00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:06,800
Speaker 5: to what is going on, because I thought I had

541
00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:10,040
Speaker 5: church heard when I was actually being abused in these places.

542
00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:12,679
Speaker 5: It made me want to endure longer. It made me

543
00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:15,080
Speaker 5: want to suffer longer because I can get over her.

544
00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:18,080
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah.

545
00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:20,520
Speaker 5: And besides, there's a big, you know, ugly devil out

546
00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:21,760
Speaker 5: there in the world. I don't want to go back

547
00:28:21,800 --> 00:28:24,000
Speaker 5: out there and then be by myself and not have

548
00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:26,639
Speaker 5: a community. Let me just deal with this. Oh, the

549
00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:29,680
Speaker 5: pastor didn't say anything to me today. It's not hurt,

550
00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:32,879
Speaker 5: but somebody can interpret it that way, you know. I

551
00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:34,520
Speaker 5: use the example oftentimes.

552
00:28:34,520 --> 00:28:34,840
Speaker 2: Okay.

553
00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:37,639
Speaker 5: So let's say I'm a singer and I'm part of

554
00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:40,640
Speaker 5: the worship team and I come into the worship leader.

555
00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:42,280
Speaker 5: I want to sing a song Sunday. Can we sing

556
00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:47,720
Speaker 5: blah blah blah? And he's like, sure, you can lead it. Okay, great,

557
00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:51,560
Speaker 5: I can lead it. I'll be at rehearsal on Wednesday. Okay, great.

558
00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:54,240
Speaker 5: I go to rehearsal Wednesday about five ten minutes late.

559
00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:58,880
Speaker 5: I walk in and the worship leaders already practicing it

560
00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:01,400
Speaker 5: with the choir, but there's someone else doing the lead part.

561
00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:04,480
Speaker 5: And I'm walking in like, wait, what's going on. It's hypothetical,

562
00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:07,120
Speaker 5: what's going on? And so I don't say anything. I

563
00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:09,320
Speaker 5: just get in my spot and we go through the

564
00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:13,760
Speaker 5: worship practice and it's over. But I'm I'm still kind

565
00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:15,719
Speaker 5: of appalled, so I don't say anything to him. So,

566
00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:17,880
Speaker 5: you know, that night, I'm kind of crying a little bit,

567
00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:19,720
Speaker 5: Like I thought he said that part I could sing,

568
00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:23,400
Speaker 5: you know, blah blah blah blah. Then the Sunday comes,

569
00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:25,160
Speaker 5: I don't lead, the person leaves.

570
00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:27,520
Speaker 2: I'm a little hurt. I'm a little disappointed, right.

571
00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:30,640
Speaker 5: I eventually talked to him and he said, you know what, sister,

572
00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:32,959
Speaker 5: I forgot that we had that conversation.

573
00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:35,800
Speaker 2: You are absolutely right. I'm wrong. I apologize.

574
00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:37,720
Speaker 5: You know, we'll work it out so you can sing

575
00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:40,120
Speaker 5: a song, another song next week or another time.

576
00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:43,440
Speaker 2: Okay, So I was hurt. I was disappointed.

577
00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:45,760
Speaker 5: You know, some people might not let that, but for me,

578
00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:49,160
Speaker 5: depending on how I'm wired, that hurt me.

579
00:29:49,760 --> 00:29:52,240
Speaker 3: Lolo would be very hurt by that. You know, you know,

580
00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:56,320
Speaker 3: I hated singing. I don't want nothing less.

581
00:29:56,160 --> 00:30:00,280
Speaker 2: Than but that disappointed me. That hurt.

582
00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:04,000
Speaker 5: Now did I lose sleep over it that week? No?

583
00:30:04,040 --> 00:30:05,200
Speaker 2: I still was able to sleep.

584
00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:09,400
Speaker 5: You know, was I feeling you know, chronic shame and

585
00:30:09,480 --> 00:30:12,640
Speaker 5: guilt and fear. Was I having nightmares about never being

586
00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:14,400
Speaker 5: able to sing in the church again? You know, am

587
00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:17,000
Speaker 5: I having panic attacks? I wasn't having a lot of

588
00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:19,520
Speaker 5: those symptoms. I just had, you know, I just had

589
00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:23,920
Speaker 5: a feeling of disappointment. And so I'm not dismissing that

590
00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:27,200
Speaker 5: because that's real, right that. I think most people feel

591
00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:31,280
Speaker 5: a little slighted, right, But that's not dealing with the trauma.

592
00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:34,080
Speaker 5: You know. So you have church hurt, then you have

593
00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:38,120
Speaker 5: adverse religious experiences. Then you have the trauma which is

594
00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:42,120
Speaker 5: dealing with you know, the physiological response of what happened. Well,

595
00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:45,880
Speaker 5: what happened is you know, the adverse religious experience. So

596
00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:48,680
Speaker 5: what happened. I went to a church service, first time

597
00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:51,040
Speaker 5: in the church. This black preacher called me to the front,

598
00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:53,400
Speaker 5: start putting his hands on my head and trying to

599
00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:55,840
Speaker 5: push me back and saying all these things about my

600
00:30:55,920 --> 00:30:58,560
Speaker 5: life that I never told this man, and I feel

601
00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:01,920
Speaker 5: a little exposed, and you know, then he starts rebuking

602
00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:05,600
Speaker 5: me in front of everybody. This is hypothetical, but this

603
00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:09,720
Speaker 5: happens a lot. That's an experience, that's an adverse religious experience.

604
00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:12,760
Speaker 5: That's something that that hurt me. Now, my first time

605
00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:16,280
Speaker 5: in this church, I leave. I'm never coming back. But

606
00:31:16,320 --> 00:31:19,080
Speaker 5: for the next three or four months, I can't sleep anymore.

607
00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:23,280
Speaker 5: You know, my friend, my coworker at my job, who's

608
00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:25,600
Speaker 5: you know, religious and always talking about God. I don't

609
00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:28,280
Speaker 5: just hearing her say that, it brings me back to

610
00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:31,400
Speaker 5: that event, and I can't sleep, and I'm at the

611
00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:34,080
Speaker 5: wheel of the stoplight and I'm jumpy. Now, you know,

612
00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:36,600
Speaker 5: I'm hyper vigilant. I don't know what's going on, and

613
00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:39,840
Speaker 5: I feel bad about myself. Now we're dealing with the trauma.

614
00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:43,959
Speaker 5: So you know, the point to your question is a

615
00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:46,600
Speaker 5: lot in the Black Church. They're having a conversation a

616
00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:51,200
Speaker 5: little bit, but they're calling everything church her. Yeah yeah, yeah,

617
00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:51,760
Speaker 5: And it's not.

618
00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:53,840
Speaker 2: All church her, because if you hear church her, you'll

619
00:31:53,960 --> 00:31:54,720
Speaker 2: just keep going.

620
00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:56,080
Speaker 1: Yeah.

621
00:31:56,160 --> 00:31:56,360
Speaker 4: Yeah.

622
00:31:56,400 --> 00:32:00,280
Speaker 3: I think we have a tendency humans in general want

623
00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:03,000
Speaker 3: to fixate on the stories that are about like the

624
00:32:03,080 --> 00:32:07,560
Speaker 3: more extreme physical experiences, and those are the traumatic things.

625
00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:10,880
Speaker 3: And obviously, you know, we just had Sarah Edmonson on.

626
00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:15,680
Speaker 3: Obviously what she went through is extremely traumatic. But like

627
00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:20,840
Speaker 3: we do really underestimate the public humiliation rituals and how

628
00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:24,960
Speaker 3: painful it is to be humiliated in front of your

629
00:32:25,040 --> 00:32:28,040
Speaker 3: peers and to be blamed for everything bad that's ever

630
00:32:28,120 --> 00:32:30,640
Speaker 3: happened to you. I mean that stuff I think just

631
00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:33,680
Speaker 3: has a much bigger impact than we initially think because

632
00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:35,840
Speaker 3: it's just not as sexy to talk about.

633
00:32:35,880 --> 00:32:38,680
Speaker 5: And not just for the person, also the people that

634
00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:43,600
Speaker 5: are witnessing, they're getting secondary traumas from witnessing this because

635
00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:45,960
Speaker 5: it also implies and this is the point a lot

636
00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:48,560
Speaker 5: of leaders do this. It's not just to rebuke that

637
00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:53,200
Speaker 5: individual or humiliate them. It's also to you know, enact

638
00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:56,440
Speaker 5: fear and to control the rest of the congregation.

639
00:32:56,680 --> 00:32:59,480
Speaker 2: Don't you do what they did unless this happened to you.

640
00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:02,760
Speaker 5: So you know, there are many that they witness their

641
00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:06,920
Speaker 5: moms and their dads being publicly humiliated. And you know

642
00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:09,200
Speaker 5: there were ten they were not you know, nine or ten,

643
00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:11,400
Speaker 5: and now they're twenty three and they don't want anything

644
00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:14,000
Speaker 5: to do with the church, right, But Grandma said, boy,

645
00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:16,400
Speaker 5: you better come to church otherwise God's not gonna bless you.

646
00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:18,800
Speaker 5: Uncle Willie is like, you know, if you don't go

647
00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:20,960
Speaker 5: back the church, you know, I'm not going to talk

648
00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:23,760
Speaker 5: to you anymore because I have to separate myself between

649
00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:27,080
Speaker 5: believers and unbelievers, and so there are a lot of

650
00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:29,000
Speaker 5: young adults in a black community.

651
00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:29,960
Speaker 2: You know.

652
00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:32,760
Speaker 5: I hear so many stories with the support group, you

653
00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:36,280
Speaker 5: know that I facilitate, and I just want to cry

654
00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:39,400
Speaker 5: sometimes hearing the stories. I mean, I'm laughing through a

655
00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:42,440
Speaker 5: lot of my painful experiences, but some of.

656
00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:44,360
Speaker 2: These are like, oh my gosh, you know.

657
00:33:45,080 --> 00:33:50,240
Speaker 5: And a lot of the family is divorcing themselves and

658
00:33:50,280 --> 00:33:55,520
Speaker 5: being estranged with their children because religion is the epicenter

659
00:33:55,560 --> 00:34:00,480
Speaker 5: of the family system, and religion is the parent of

660
00:34:00,520 --> 00:34:04,160
Speaker 5: the parents. So when religion or any type of you know,

661
00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:07,840
Speaker 5: dogma or any type of ideology becomes the parent of

662
00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:11,320
Speaker 5: the parents, they neglect their children. And so now the children,

663
00:34:11,440 --> 00:34:13,319
Speaker 5: they may be fed, they may be clothed, but there's

664
00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:16,239
Speaker 5: a lot of emotional neglect when you grow up and

665
00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:18,240
Speaker 5: you're like, oh, well, we ate, we went to school.

666
00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:20,640
Speaker 5: I was okay. No, you're not okay, you know.

667
00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:26,520
Speaker 4: And the Bible has so much inherent family disorientation built

668
00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:29,000
Speaker 4: into it, you know. Or it's a mother against daughter,

669
00:34:29,160 --> 00:34:33,280
Speaker 4: son against father, brother against brother in this war for God,

670
00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:37,520
Speaker 4: and it's it was used a lot in my family

671
00:34:38,120 --> 00:34:41,200
Speaker 4: of origin and the cult that we were in to

672
00:34:41,280 --> 00:34:46,320
Speaker 4: really make you not feel safe with your family because

673
00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:50,439
Speaker 4: God and this cult is always way before you, and

674
00:34:51,560 --> 00:34:54,400
Speaker 4: it's a very dysregulating feeling.

675
00:34:54,680 --> 00:34:57,200
Speaker 5: It is because you never feel safe ever, and you

676
00:34:57,280 --> 00:34:59,680
Speaker 5: never feel like you truly belong. Yes, I'm eating at

677
00:34:59,719 --> 00:35:02,440
Speaker 5: the dinner the table with my family, but they're talking

678
00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:04,600
Speaker 5: about what happened in church. They're talking about you know,

679
00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:07,239
Speaker 5: you know, binding the devil up. They're not talking about

680
00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:09,960
Speaker 5: what happened to me at school today. You know, I

681
00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:12,319
Speaker 5: got an A plus and the teacher congratulated me. I

682
00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:15,120
Speaker 5: can't bring that to the forefront of the conversation because

683
00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:19,319
Speaker 5: religion is a parent of my parents, and therefore I

684
00:35:19,360 --> 00:35:23,440
Speaker 5: don't matter. I'm not seen, I'm not heard, and a

685
00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:26,880
Speaker 5: lot of you know, adolescents grow up as an adults

686
00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:30,279
Speaker 5: and that you know, pervasive feeling of shame and just

687
00:35:30,719 --> 00:35:33,680
Speaker 5: you know, feeling not wanting and not belong can drive

688
00:35:33,760 --> 00:35:37,200
Speaker 5: you to look for your bow as and just get

689
00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:39,479
Speaker 5: the first bow as you see it and bring those

690
00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:42,440
Speaker 5: into relationships. And that's why people say, oh my gosh, Nikki,

691
00:35:42,440 --> 00:35:44,759
Speaker 5: five cults, how did you do it? I could top

692
00:35:45,120 --> 00:35:47,560
Speaker 5: you know, which you're familiar with the term, but I

693
00:35:47,600 --> 00:35:49,720
Speaker 5: didn't realize that's what I was doing in my mind.

694
00:35:49,840 --> 00:35:54,399
Speaker 5: I need to be undercovering in the house of God

695
00:35:54,440 --> 00:35:56,360
Speaker 5: to protect me from the big, bad devil that was

696
00:35:56,400 --> 00:35:58,919
Speaker 5: out in the world, which once you go out there,

697
00:35:58,960 --> 00:36:01,200
Speaker 5: it's kind of like the given. Once you get across

698
00:36:01,239 --> 00:36:03,640
Speaker 5: that side, it's beautiful over here. What are you meaning

699
00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:05,440
Speaker 5: this is the devil?

700
00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:07,120
Speaker 2: Then? If this is the devil?

701
00:36:08,200 --> 00:36:12,280
Speaker 5: But you know, so that's how I kept looking for

702
00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:16,440
Speaker 5: that safety and that belonging and that protection from whatever

703
00:36:16,640 --> 00:36:20,560
Speaker 5: was to come, you know. And uh, for many if

704
00:36:20,600 --> 00:36:24,200
Speaker 5: their families were rejecting them because of religion, they you know,

705
00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:28,200
Speaker 5: it's a lonely so many, so many in the black community,

706
00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:30,719
Speaker 5: and there's not place in space to talk about it.

707
00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:34,000
Speaker 5: You know, there's not place in space. That's why you know,

708
00:36:34,080 --> 00:36:36,279
Speaker 5: we've been running the support Goop for the past two years.

709
00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:39,600
Speaker 5: We will continue to offer it for free for survivors

710
00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:41,920
Speaker 5: to come in and just share their stories. We talk

711
00:36:41,960 --> 00:36:44,480
Speaker 5: about different topics and things of that nature. We have

712
00:36:44,600 --> 00:36:47,520
Speaker 5: some things cooking that we want to do more offerings,

713
00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:51,200
Speaker 5: but we encourage other organizations or other voices that are

714
00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:55,680
Speaker 5: popping up because this is a big, big mountain in

715
00:36:55,719 --> 00:36:58,239
Speaker 5: the black community and there's a lot of hurdles to

716
00:36:58,360 --> 00:37:02,600
Speaker 5: jump over just to get to the conversation about cult

717
00:37:02,640 --> 00:37:04,120
Speaker 5: involvement and religious trauma.

718
00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:08,360
Speaker 3: Right. So you know, obviously we're talking a lot about

719
00:37:08,840 --> 00:37:12,719
Speaker 3: the things about religion that can be harmful. We didn't

720
00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:16,839
Speaker 3: even touch on LGBTQ. Oh yeah, that piece of it.

721
00:37:18,080 --> 00:37:21,560
Speaker 3: But you know, in your perfect world, like if these

722
00:37:21,719 --> 00:37:24,319
Speaker 3: conversations were to really really pick up and like a

723
00:37:24,320 --> 00:37:26,520
Speaker 3: lot of changeword happen, what would that look like? Like

724
00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:29,680
Speaker 3: you're not saying don't go to church, right, so what

725
00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:32,719
Speaker 3: is what does that change look like for you?

726
00:37:32,719 --> 00:37:34,680
Speaker 5: You know, And that's a good point that you make,

727
00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:37,880
Speaker 5: because even with the support group, we invite all if

728
00:37:37,960 --> 00:37:41,840
Speaker 5: you feel comfortable, you feel safe, and we're.

729
00:37:41,200 --> 00:37:43,120
Speaker 2: Big on you determine what safety is.

730
00:37:43,280 --> 00:37:46,279
Speaker 5: You know, we can start that conversation making sure logistically

731
00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:49,600
Speaker 5: things are safe, but the definer safety is in the individual,

732
00:37:49,719 --> 00:37:53,000
Speaker 5: not you know, the hosts. I'm big on that. I

733
00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:55,160
Speaker 5: could say something you may not feel safe. I'm not

734
00:37:55,200 --> 00:37:57,719
Speaker 5: intending to do that, but you know, the person defines that.

735
00:37:57,800 --> 00:38:02,240
Speaker 5: But we like to honor different perspectives, different lanes post

736
00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:04,919
Speaker 5: religious trauma, post you know, cults and things of that nature.

737
00:38:04,960 --> 00:38:08,040
Speaker 5: Because some people say, hey, I don't mess with the institution,

738
00:38:08,440 --> 00:38:10,600
Speaker 5: but I do like my faith, and that's where I

739
00:38:10,640 --> 00:38:13,359
Speaker 5: want to remain, at least right now. We honor that

740
00:38:13,440 --> 00:38:16,239
Speaker 5: there are people in our group that are atheists, some

741
00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:19,360
Speaker 5: are humanists, some are secularists, some are in New Age,

742
00:38:19,440 --> 00:38:21,799
Speaker 5: some are like, I don't know what the hell I

743
00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:24,960
Speaker 5: think or believe right now, and I'm like, and that's okay.

744
00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:28,600
Speaker 5: And I try to give people encourage them in that space.

745
00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:31,600
Speaker 5: I call it the proverbial spiritual hallway, like you're out

746
00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:34,400
Speaker 5: of all of that, but you don't know what you

747
00:38:34,480 --> 00:38:37,360
Speaker 5: want to do next. And a lot of times people

748
00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:40,000
Speaker 5: get very shaky in that environment now, so they go

749
00:38:40,120 --> 00:38:43,200
Speaker 5: back to what's familiar. I did that five times, you know,

750
00:38:43,760 --> 00:38:45,479
Speaker 5: you know, until the last time. I'm like, I can't

751
00:38:45,520 --> 00:38:48,759
Speaker 5: do this anymore. I'm not safe, I'm being harmed. And

752
00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:52,120
Speaker 5: so I encourage people now, like you don't have to

753
00:38:52,120 --> 00:38:54,439
Speaker 5: be in that hallway by yourself anymore if you don't

754
00:38:54,440 --> 00:38:56,920
Speaker 5: want to. There's a lot of us here we're scratching

755
00:38:56,920 --> 00:39:03,480
Speaker 5: our head and saying we don't know us because someone

756
00:39:03,480 --> 00:39:05,000
Speaker 5: can come out and say, you know what, I'm holding

757
00:39:05,040 --> 00:39:07,160
Speaker 5: on to my faith that may last for a couple

758
00:39:07,200 --> 00:39:10,000
Speaker 5: of years, and you may evolve and say, you know what,

759
00:39:10,160 --> 00:39:11,719
Speaker 5: I don't need this anymore.

760
00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:14,680
Speaker 2: You know, some may go and become an atheist.

761
00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:18,680
Speaker 5: I've heard of different different practitioners that was their story,

762
00:39:18,719 --> 00:39:20,799
Speaker 5: and then they left it because they felt atheism was

763
00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:23,680
Speaker 5: so lonely for them. So now they're more in spirituality

764
00:39:23,719 --> 00:39:26,839
Speaker 5: and things of that nature. And you know, I try

765
00:39:26,920 --> 00:39:29,759
Speaker 5: to be just in the gray, in the middle and

766
00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:33,080
Speaker 5: be able to honor whatever position someone finds themselves in.

767
00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:35,960
Speaker 5: But I say the common theme is where do you

768
00:39:36,000 --> 00:39:39,480
Speaker 5: feel safe? Where do you feel like yourself? Where do

769
00:39:39,520 --> 00:39:42,479
Speaker 5: you feel like you can expand and grow? If any

770
00:39:42,520 --> 00:39:45,960
Speaker 5: of these these affiliations I've named and some that I haven't,

771
00:39:46,480 --> 00:39:48,680
Speaker 5: you feel that you're constricted. You feel like you cannot

772
00:39:48,680 --> 00:39:51,919
Speaker 5: be yourself, whether that's your sexual orientation. You know who

773
00:39:51,960 --> 00:39:55,120
Speaker 5: you are as a person, your gifts, your talent, your creativity.

774
00:39:55,360 --> 00:39:59,520
Speaker 5: When that is squelched, that may not be the destination

775
00:39:59,640 --> 00:40:02,400
Speaker 5: spot for you. You know, you may learn something there, but

776
00:40:02,560 --> 00:40:06,120
Speaker 5: don't be close to the fact that maybe somewhere else

777
00:40:06,200 --> 00:40:08,960
Speaker 5: is where you need to be, or maybe touch nothing.

778
00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:11,839
Speaker 5: I touched nothing for a while after that. Pastor said

779
00:40:11,840 --> 00:40:14,040
Speaker 5: that to me. I was like, you know what, it

780
00:40:14,080 --> 00:40:16,560
Speaker 5: felt good. It felt good, and so I didn't try

781
00:40:16,560 --> 00:40:20,560
Speaker 5: to rush. There was the temptation to rush to find

782
00:40:20,560 --> 00:40:22,680
Speaker 5: where I wanted to affiliate with, and that was coming

783
00:40:22,719 --> 00:40:26,680
Speaker 5: from people that knew the old Nikki calling me, Hey,

784
00:40:27,239 --> 00:40:28,759
Speaker 5: such and such happen. Can you pray for me?

785
00:40:29,400 --> 00:40:30,120
Speaker 2: I can't do that.

786
00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:33,160
Speaker 5: What, oh please, You'll be fine. It's a couple of

787
00:40:33,200 --> 00:40:35,279
Speaker 5: years out, you should be back. I can't do that.

788
00:40:35,440 --> 00:40:37,160
Speaker 5: So I had to walk away from a lot of

789
00:40:37,200 --> 00:40:42,000
Speaker 5: people because I felt myself being constricted. And so now,

790
00:40:42,320 --> 00:40:45,600
Speaker 5: and that's with any relationship, any partnership, any you know,

791
00:40:45,680 --> 00:40:46,279
Speaker 5: whatever you do.

792
00:40:46,360 --> 00:40:47,120
Speaker 2: Can I be.

793
00:40:47,160 --> 00:40:50,040
Speaker 5: Myself and can I expand? And the people around me

794
00:40:50,480 --> 00:40:53,000
Speaker 5: can they champion me while I expand? Or are they

795
00:40:53,040 --> 00:40:55,640
Speaker 5: going to do things to try to constrict me because

796
00:40:55,680 --> 00:40:59,279
Speaker 5: they don't like the glow, they don't like the shine

797
00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:03,040
Speaker 5: I think of the butterfly, you know, analogy? Just can

798
00:41:03,160 --> 00:41:07,640
Speaker 5: I spread my wings with this affiliation, with this belief system.

799
00:41:07,200 --> 00:41:11,960
Speaker 3: My authentic wing? Someone else ascribing to people might.

800
00:41:11,840 --> 00:41:15,000
Speaker 1: Say, yeah, I can. And most people are probably men.

801
00:41:17,400 --> 00:41:23,359
Speaker 5: Clock yes, yes, and that especially and that's a whole

802
00:41:23,360 --> 00:41:25,839
Speaker 5: nother story coming out of a lot of these spaces

803
00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:29,200
Speaker 5: and being indoctrinated with you know, women exist to serve

804
00:41:29,280 --> 00:41:31,759
Speaker 5: men and women exist to make sure they're pleased in

805
00:41:31,760 --> 00:41:34,120
Speaker 5: every capacity. And then when you come out of all that,

806
00:41:34,160 --> 00:41:35,879
Speaker 5: you're like, Okay, what's my identity now?

807
00:41:36,480 --> 00:41:36,680
Speaker 2: You know?

808
00:41:36,920 --> 00:41:39,160
Speaker 5: And I love to hear stories when women like I

809
00:41:39,200 --> 00:41:41,360
Speaker 5: am not centering any man right now in my life.

810
00:41:41,480 --> 00:41:44,880
Speaker 5: I am learning who I am And it can be hard,

811
00:41:45,360 --> 00:41:48,920
Speaker 5: not saying decentering men, but just standing on our own

812
00:41:48,960 --> 00:41:51,640
Speaker 5: two feet and figuring that out. But man, do we

813
00:41:51,640 --> 00:41:55,000
Speaker 5: become a powerhouse if we just let that process happen

814
00:41:55,680 --> 00:41:59,319
Speaker 5: and you know, really honor who we are. And you know,

815
00:42:00,040 --> 00:42:03,200
Speaker 5: I know doctor Yanye Lalish has her life shelf analogy,

816
00:42:03,239 --> 00:42:06,919
Speaker 5: but for me, I started this like maybe my first

817
00:42:06,960 --> 00:42:10,279
Speaker 5: couple of years. I like to use metaphorical phrases a lot.

818
00:42:10,320 --> 00:42:11,919
Speaker 5: That's just I don't know if you was gathered at

819
00:42:12,040 --> 00:42:14,120
Speaker 5: And so for me, you know, people are like, well,

820
00:42:14,120 --> 00:42:15,520
Speaker 5: what do you think about hell? What do you think

821
00:42:15,520 --> 00:42:17,239
Speaker 5: about the prophetic? I was like, I don't know. It's

822
00:42:17,239 --> 00:42:19,239
Speaker 5: on my life shelf. I'll touch it when it's time

823
00:42:19,239 --> 00:42:22,040
Speaker 5: to touch it. Because in the beginning, I didn't know

824
00:42:22,080 --> 00:42:23,240
Speaker 5: what I believed about anything.

825
00:42:23,239 --> 00:42:23,759
Speaker 2: Anymore.

826
00:42:23,920 --> 00:42:26,640
Speaker 5: And because everything was so end timed in me, you know,

827
00:42:26,680 --> 00:42:28,959
Speaker 5: it got to the point I said, God, if you're real,

828
00:42:29,000 --> 00:42:30,919
Speaker 5: if you can hear me, I don't know who's up there,

829
00:42:31,440 --> 00:42:34,359
Speaker 5: but I can't adhere to all these rules to make

830
00:42:34,400 --> 00:42:36,560
Speaker 5: sure if the end time pops off, I'll be good

831
00:42:36,800 --> 00:42:38,759
Speaker 5: and try to heal. So I'm gonna let this go.

832
00:42:39,600 --> 00:42:42,120
Speaker 5: And if I go to hell, I'll go to hell.

833
00:42:41,920 --> 00:42:44,960
Speaker 5: But you know, right, yeah, yeah, And so I let

834
00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:47,799
Speaker 5: it go. But there were so many other things that

835
00:42:48,480 --> 00:42:50,799
Speaker 5: I didn't know what I believed. You know, I didn't

836
00:42:50,800 --> 00:42:52,319
Speaker 5: get to this part of my story, but I was

837
00:42:52,480 --> 00:42:54,360
Speaker 5: deeply involved in the pro life movement.

838
00:42:54,800 --> 00:42:56,680
Speaker 2: When I was in all these subsequent.

839
00:42:56,280 --> 00:42:59,480
Speaker 5: Cults, they were very politically activated and everything I went

840
00:42:59,560 --> 00:43:02,160
Speaker 5: to Washington, DC, I put the life tabe over and

841
00:43:02,320 --> 00:43:05,120
Speaker 5: I've been a part of walks and rallies and all

842
00:43:05,160 --> 00:43:07,680
Speaker 5: this stuff like that. And so that was on my

843
00:43:07,719 --> 00:43:10,600
Speaker 5: life shelf. You know, politically, what do I think? You know,

844
00:43:10,800 --> 00:43:13,319
Speaker 5: what do I think about a sexuality? What do I

845
00:43:13,360 --> 00:43:14,360
Speaker 5: think about the prophetic?

846
00:43:14,480 --> 00:43:15,799
Speaker 2: Is it real? Is it wooo? You know?

847
00:43:16,160 --> 00:43:17,719
Speaker 5: So I had like in my mind it was all

848
00:43:17,760 --> 00:43:20,239
Speaker 5: these different binders with titles on the binder on the

849
00:43:20,280 --> 00:43:22,400
Speaker 5: life shelf, and in the beginning, I just try to

850
00:43:22,440 --> 00:43:24,400
Speaker 5: take all the binders off so I can all right,

851
00:43:24,440 --> 00:43:25,799
Speaker 5: what do I think about this? And then I said,

852
00:43:25,800 --> 00:43:28,920
Speaker 5: wait a minute, this is not going to work. And

853
00:43:28,960 --> 00:43:32,520
Speaker 5: so what I say is I took off my proverbial watch,

854
00:43:32,719 --> 00:43:35,319
Speaker 5: the watch that people put on my arm more than

855
00:43:35,360 --> 00:43:37,720
Speaker 5: I did, and I took it off and I banged

856
00:43:37,760 --> 00:43:41,840
Speaker 5: it metaphorically, and I said, I'm giving myself time. I

857
00:43:41,880 --> 00:43:44,200
Speaker 5: don't care how fast the world seems to be moving.

858
00:43:44,960 --> 00:43:47,759
Speaker 5: I need to slow down so I can heal. So

859
00:43:47,880 --> 00:43:50,200
Speaker 5: if it takes three years before I can touch the

860
00:43:50,239 --> 00:43:53,319
Speaker 5: prophetic binder, it takes three years. And there's been times

861
00:43:53,360 --> 00:43:55,400
Speaker 5: I've touched certain topics and I thought I was ready

862
00:43:55,760 --> 00:43:58,080
Speaker 5: and then my nervous system was like eh, and then

863
00:43:58,080 --> 00:43:58,719
Speaker 5: I put it back.

864
00:43:58,800 --> 00:44:01,600
Speaker 4: I love the stuff you talk about, what the nervous

865
00:44:01,640 --> 00:44:05,200
Speaker 4: system is. It's really well. You're such an embodied person.

866
00:44:05,280 --> 00:44:09,080
Speaker 4: It's really regulating to be around. I want to know

867
00:44:09,120 --> 00:44:12,800
Speaker 4: before I ask you about that, what was your break

868
00:44:13,160 --> 00:44:16,480
Speaker 4: to leave the Fifth Cult and how how did that occur?

869
00:44:16,719 --> 00:44:19,279
Speaker 2: It was actually the fourth Cult that broke me.

870
00:44:19,719 --> 00:44:22,160
Speaker 5: Okay, ironically, the Fifth Cult was the one I was

871
00:44:22,160 --> 00:44:25,319
Speaker 5: telling you about online and we had the phone intercession thing.

872
00:44:25,719 --> 00:44:27,239
Speaker 5: So I was still a part of that for a

873
00:44:27,280 --> 00:44:29,960
Speaker 5: little bit and then I just tapered off because of

874
00:44:30,000 --> 00:44:32,800
Speaker 5: the effects of the Fourth Cult. Okay, so the Fourth

875
00:44:32,840 --> 00:44:36,640
Speaker 5: Cult was also out in Kansas City. They don't exist anymore.

876
00:44:36,840 --> 00:44:39,200
Speaker 5: And that's another thing I've talked about, I think on

877
00:44:39,239 --> 00:44:43,520
Speaker 5: different platforms, the guilt and the grief that people carry

878
00:44:43,560 --> 00:44:47,520
Speaker 5: from ministries or cults that once was and it's no longer.

879
00:44:47,880 --> 00:44:51,760
Speaker 5: There's no trace, the website is down, you know, the people,

880
00:44:51,840 --> 00:44:54,760
Speaker 5: maybe the leaders are deceased. You know, you're not connected

881
00:44:54,800 --> 00:44:59,000
Speaker 5: with the community anymore. So it's your word against whatever existed,

882
00:44:59,160 --> 00:45:02,120
Speaker 5: you know, And so there there's a loss there, you know,

883
00:45:02,239 --> 00:45:06,000
Speaker 5: the ambiguity of like, wow, I was in that place.

884
00:45:06,080 --> 00:45:08,680
Speaker 2: I did go to that church. It just doesn't exist anymore.

885
00:45:08,680 --> 00:45:12,160
Speaker 5: But it was that one, the fourth one, and it

886
00:45:12,200 --> 00:45:16,440
Speaker 5: was I hop on steroids, if you will, not in size,

887
00:45:16,520 --> 00:45:17,520
Speaker 5: but in the teachings.

888
00:45:17,840 --> 00:45:22,000
Speaker 2: So there was romanticism with martyrdom, a lot of it.

889
00:45:22,120 --> 00:45:26,640
Speaker 5: We watched a lot of film, if you will, of

890
00:45:26,960 --> 00:45:30,399
Speaker 5: different leaders who had deceased before and talking about laying

891
00:45:30,400 --> 00:45:33,120
Speaker 5: your life down for Christ. You know, we were it

892
00:45:33,160 --> 00:45:40,400
Speaker 5: was smaller, very prophetic, very spiritually spiritually infused, and so

893
00:45:40,680 --> 00:45:43,560
Speaker 5: there was the proclamation of angels being in our mists

894
00:45:43,600 --> 00:45:45,400
Speaker 5: when we would pray and we would worship, and the

895
00:45:45,480 --> 00:45:49,080
Speaker 5: leader would say he would see certain anointings being given out,

896
00:45:49,160 --> 00:45:51,880
Speaker 5: and so there was just a lot of deep stuff

897
00:45:51,920 --> 00:45:54,880
Speaker 5: that people probably like, what the hell y'all doing in

898
00:45:54,920 --> 00:45:59,480
Speaker 5: the here? And it broke because the leader, I mean

899
00:45:59,520 --> 00:46:04,279
Speaker 5: most of these leaders or malignant narcissists anyway, but it

900
00:46:04,320 --> 00:46:07,080
Speaker 5: was his relationship with me in the beginning. You know,

901
00:46:07,280 --> 00:46:09,279
Speaker 5: I went there and visited there for like two months.

902
00:46:09,280 --> 00:46:09,879
Speaker 5: He didn't say a.

903
00:46:09,800 --> 00:46:10,279
Speaker 2: Word to me.

904
00:46:10,680 --> 00:46:12,759
Speaker 5: And in this ministry you have to be invited in

905
00:46:13,000 --> 00:46:16,920
Speaker 5: because they were doing heavy, heavy duty spiritual warfare and

906
00:46:17,239 --> 00:46:18,560
Speaker 5: if you don't know what you was doing, you can

907
00:46:18,560 --> 00:46:26,080
Speaker 5: get hurt and so and so, you know, my friend

908
00:46:26,120 --> 00:46:28,880
Speaker 5: invited me. She said, I know this is this is

909
00:46:28,920 --> 00:46:30,640
Speaker 5: your level, this is you know what you love And

910
00:46:30,680 --> 00:46:31,080
Speaker 5: she was right.

911
00:46:31,120 --> 00:46:32,439
Speaker 2: When I got in there, I loved it.

912
00:46:32,800 --> 00:46:34,759
Speaker 5: He didn't say anything for me for two months and

913
00:46:34,800 --> 00:46:37,440
Speaker 5: then we were in a prayer meeting and he started

914
00:46:37,440 --> 00:46:40,080
Speaker 5: to like prophesy over us and it was a small

915
00:46:40,160 --> 00:46:45,280
Speaker 5: under fifty type of church or cult and he called

916
00:46:45,320 --> 00:46:47,960
Speaker 5: me out and he prophesied over me for like I

917
00:46:48,000 --> 00:46:51,120
Speaker 5: don't know, ten minutes, and everything he said was accurate.

918
00:46:51,800 --> 00:46:54,960
Speaker 5: And that's the other thing breaking the disenamerement that people

919
00:46:55,000 --> 00:46:59,160
Speaker 5: have when people can kind of say things about your Yeah,

920
00:46:59,239 --> 00:47:01,160
Speaker 5: but you know, for some be like oh my gosh,

921
00:47:01,239 --> 00:47:03,040
Speaker 5: yesh the Man and Woman of God, you know, they

922
00:47:03,040 --> 00:47:04,960
Speaker 5: told me what I ate for breakfast this morning. Nobody

923
00:47:05,040 --> 00:47:07,839
Speaker 5: knew that. I was very enamant when people could do that,

924
00:47:08,239 --> 00:47:10,560
Speaker 5: But then I could also do that for people too,

925
00:47:10,840 --> 00:47:13,640
Speaker 5: which he is a double whammy, right, because I didn't

926
00:47:13,719 --> 00:47:17,120
Speaker 5: know what to do with things I was naturally gifted

927
00:47:17,200 --> 00:47:20,520
Speaker 5: with before I came in the church and seeing how

928
00:47:20,560 --> 00:47:24,719
Speaker 5: people were using similar gifts for wrong So when I

929
00:47:24,800 --> 00:47:27,280
Speaker 5: left all of it, I was rejecting so much of myself,

930
00:47:27,280 --> 00:47:29,760
Speaker 5: like I don't want to touch anything that they were touching.

931
00:47:30,400 --> 00:47:33,719
Speaker 5: Like you know, I have dreams sometimes about people and

932
00:47:33,760 --> 00:47:36,520
Speaker 5: then I call them and like, yeah, that just happened yesterday,

933
00:47:36,640 --> 00:47:39,160
Speaker 5: Like that's just me now. But in the beginning I

934
00:47:39,200 --> 00:47:43,680
Speaker 5: was afraid of it. So but yeah, he after that,

935
00:47:43,920 --> 00:47:46,360
Speaker 5: we were close him and his family. You know, I

936
00:47:46,400 --> 00:47:49,000
Speaker 5: did a lot in a leadership level in that ministry,

937
00:47:49,040 --> 00:47:52,279
Speaker 5: and everything like that, and one time he asked me

938
00:47:52,280 --> 00:47:54,760
Speaker 5: to feel in for him for like a month during

939
00:47:55,000 --> 00:47:58,120
Speaker 5: you know, the leading in prayer, and a lot of

940
00:47:58,120 --> 00:48:01,560
Speaker 5: people were coming back to him like, oh my gosh, Nikki,

941
00:48:01,719 --> 00:48:03,239
Speaker 5: this was so good when she let it, and da

942
00:48:03,320 --> 00:48:05,440
Speaker 5: da da da, And so I think he got a

943
00:48:05,440 --> 00:48:09,279
Speaker 5: little I was gonna say jealous, yeah, And I didn't

944
00:48:09,280 --> 00:48:11,520
Speaker 5: see it at first, but then that's when he started

945
00:48:11,520 --> 00:48:15,200
Speaker 5: to turn. And then I started to get the wolf

946
00:48:15,239 --> 00:48:18,120
Speaker 5: starts and just how he started to treat me and

947
00:48:18,200 --> 00:48:22,160
Speaker 5: start insinuating stuff. And he knew that my weakness was

948
00:48:22,200 --> 00:48:25,200
Speaker 5: rejection and abandonment at that time, and he just used it.

949
00:48:25,200 --> 00:48:27,879
Speaker 5: And I lived like maybe down the street from him.

950
00:48:27,960 --> 00:48:31,600
Speaker 5: Our children went to the same school. And it was

951
00:48:31,760 --> 00:48:34,239
Speaker 5: over a course the time of the rejection and just

952
00:48:34,520 --> 00:48:37,799
Speaker 5: the merging of him saying stuff over me that was

953
00:48:38,000 --> 00:48:40,640
Speaker 5: like slimy but trying to say God was saying it.

954
00:48:41,200 --> 00:48:45,120
Speaker 5: I just really just shut down. And I remember my

955
00:48:45,200 --> 00:48:46,840
Speaker 5: daughter said I would come home from school and I

956
00:48:46,840 --> 00:48:49,319
Speaker 5: could feel depression all in the house, and I just

957
00:48:49,800 --> 00:48:53,080
Speaker 5: it's a whole lot more there. But that was when

958
00:48:53,120 --> 00:48:56,880
Speaker 5: I left and I realized it was a cult. I

959
00:48:57,040 --> 00:49:00,080
Speaker 5: almost went crazy because I was like, not again. And

960
00:49:00,320 --> 00:49:02,080
Speaker 5: that's when I started seeing all the threads of the

961
00:49:02,080 --> 00:49:05,040
Speaker 5: other places that were cults, and I'm like, what is

962
00:49:05,080 --> 00:49:08,440
Speaker 5: going on? And you know, I still connected with that

963
00:49:08,560 --> 00:49:10,840
Speaker 5: fifth cult for a little bit, just to have something

964
00:49:10,880 --> 00:49:13,960
Speaker 5: to be connected to. But once I started reading the

965
00:49:14,000 --> 00:49:18,880
Speaker 5: material of different experts in the cult field, I just

966
00:49:18,880 --> 00:49:21,440
Speaker 5: just let it go because I thought if I didn't,

967
00:49:21,520 --> 00:49:24,160
Speaker 5: I was probably going to have a nervous breakdown because

968
00:49:24,160 --> 00:49:27,080
Speaker 5: I was very very close to having it. But having

969
00:49:27,080 --> 00:49:29,799
Speaker 5: my daughter was kind of the catalyst for me not

970
00:49:29,920 --> 00:49:31,759
Speaker 5: to quit on myself.

971
00:49:31,920 --> 00:49:34,680
Speaker 4: You know, I think those books make a lot of people,

972
00:49:34,800 --> 00:49:38,120
Speaker 4: I like the terminology or the term come online, you know,

973
00:49:38,239 --> 00:49:41,120
Speaker 4: their critical thinking kind of is like, oh, I'm back.

974
00:49:41,480 --> 00:49:47,000
Speaker 4: It does just put into perspective these very overwhelming, flooded

975
00:49:47,040 --> 00:49:50,920
Speaker 4: emotions that we have that do not make any rational sense,

976
00:49:51,040 --> 00:49:53,760
Speaker 4: and then suddenly you kind of have language and words

977
00:49:53,800 --> 00:49:56,920
Speaker 4: for it. I definitely feel like I shared that experience

978
00:49:57,120 --> 00:49:58,000
Speaker 4: as well.

979
00:49:58,239 --> 00:50:02,440
Speaker 5: And that's good because you know, I've met people who

980
00:50:02,480 --> 00:50:05,280
Speaker 5: have been you know, survivors of this, and in the beginning,

981
00:50:05,960 --> 00:50:07,799
Speaker 5: they're like, well, why can't I just pray through this?

982
00:50:08,120 --> 00:50:11,200
Speaker 5: Like why can't I just read the Bible and forgive

983
00:50:11,840 --> 00:50:14,520
Speaker 5: maybe through some fasting in there worship do I'll be okay,

984
00:50:14,680 --> 00:50:17,600
Speaker 5: and I'm like, okay, But the traumas in your body,

985
00:50:18,239 --> 00:50:20,480
Speaker 5: you know, and all of these things that you helped

986
00:50:20,760 --> 00:50:24,759
Speaker 5: you spiritually. You know, you are a human being, you know,

987
00:50:25,040 --> 00:50:27,440
Speaker 5: and it's stored in your body and being able to

988
00:50:27,560 --> 00:50:29,960
Speaker 5: understand how your body has a voice and it went

989
00:50:30,000 --> 00:50:33,280
Speaker 5: through it with you. Like I said, ten years, cold free,

990
00:50:33,320 --> 00:50:35,640
Speaker 5: but there's still things in my body that are letting

991
00:50:35,680 --> 00:50:38,120
Speaker 5: me know. Sometime I'll tell a story and I'll feel

992
00:50:38,120 --> 00:50:40,560
Speaker 5: it come up in my shoulders and I'm like, oh,

993
00:50:40,560 --> 00:50:43,360
Speaker 5: there's something still there, you know. But I don't get mad.

994
00:50:43,840 --> 00:50:45,880
Speaker 5: I don't say okay, it's ten years. I'm done with everything,

995
00:50:45,880 --> 00:50:49,359
Speaker 5: and I'm just like, thank you body for letting me know. Hey,

996
00:50:49,400 --> 00:50:52,719
Speaker 5: that really hurt me when we went through that, you know.

997
00:50:52,800 --> 00:50:54,879
Speaker 5: And so then I find my ways to release, whether

998
00:50:54,880 --> 00:50:58,239
Speaker 5: our crime or you know. I didn't used to be

999
00:50:58,440 --> 00:51:02,920
Speaker 5: like that with myself, so critical, so harsh because the

1000
00:51:03,000 --> 00:51:05,239
Speaker 5: models I was around, and then what I'm reading in

1001
00:51:05,480 --> 00:51:08,480
Speaker 5: scriptures and then the interpretation told me to be harsh

1002
00:51:08,560 --> 00:51:11,319
Speaker 5: on myself. And that is something that's helped me heal

1003
00:51:11,440 --> 00:51:15,640
Speaker 5: to learn to say, Nikki, you didn't know, it's okay, right,

1004
00:51:15,719 --> 00:51:19,759
Speaker 5: you didn't know you're coming online. Now it's gonna take

1005
00:51:19,800 --> 00:51:22,720
Speaker 5: you a little minute to you know, relate and connect

1006
00:51:22,719 --> 00:51:25,640
Speaker 5: with it. But it's okay. So now I welcome that

1007
00:51:25,760 --> 00:51:29,520
Speaker 5: voice before, you know, especially these spaces, your body is

1008
00:51:29,560 --> 00:51:32,359
Speaker 5: the devil. It's sinful nature. God doesn't like it. It's

1009
00:51:32,800 --> 00:51:36,120
Speaker 5: you know, filthy rags to God. You know, hate what

1010
00:51:36,200 --> 00:51:38,640
Speaker 5: you are, hate who you are inside. And now I

1011
00:51:38,680 --> 00:51:40,960
Speaker 5: give space for my body to speak. I know that

1012
00:51:41,000 --> 00:51:43,759
Speaker 5: sounds weird, but what I mean to communicate through emotions

1013
00:51:43,840 --> 00:51:44,960
Speaker 5: what's really going on?

1014
00:51:45,360 --> 00:51:45,600
Speaker 3: You know.

1015
00:51:46,160 --> 00:51:48,040
Speaker 2: When I'm heeling and recovering.

1016
00:51:47,640 --> 00:51:50,759
Speaker 3: I love I love that. I like I'm someone who

1017
00:51:51,040 --> 00:51:55,040
Speaker 3: you know, if I realize that I've been through something

1018
00:51:55,440 --> 00:51:59,359
Speaker 3: that hurt me, I'm like type A, and I want

1019
00:51:59,360 --> 00:52:02,719
Speaker 3: to recover it as fast and as perfectly as possible.

1020
00:52:03,239 --> 00:52:05,839
Speaker 3: And when it's like, like the particular amount of time

1021
00:52:05,880 --> 00:52:08,680
Speaker 3: that I arbitrarily decide I should be over it passes

1022
00:52:08,760 --> 00:52:12,919
Speaker 3: and something comes up again, my instinct is to be like, no,

1023
00:52:13,280 --> 00:52:15,400
Speaker 3: you should be better by now. You should not be

1024
00:52:15,400 --> 00:52:19,239
Speaker 3: feeling this anymore, you know, And I like, obviously that's

1025
00:52:19,280 --> 00:52:22,120
Speaker 3: not the appropriate way to treat yourself. But it's so

1026
00:52:22,280 --> 00:52:26,120
Speaker 3: easy to fall into that when you come from this stuff,

1027
00:52:26,320 --> 00:52:29,279
Speaker 3: this kind of background, in particular, because that perfectionism is

1028
00:52:29,440 --> 00:52:30,280
Speaker 3: ingrained into.

1029
00:52:30,040 --> 00:52:34,880
Speaker 5: You, and especially if something that's repetitive, like for instance, okay,

1030
00:52:35,440 --> 00:52:39,200
Speaker 5: I'm a narcissistic abuse survivor. From family to colts, to friends,

1031
00:52:39,239 --> 00:52:42,680
Speaker 5: all that stuff. So there's this kind of almost subconscious

1032
00:52:42,680 --> 00:52:46,560
Speaker 5: belief system like, Okay, well I survived. I talk about narcissism.

1033
00:52:46,560 --> 00:52:48,799
Speaker 5: I've read books about it. I should be narc free

1034
00:52:48,840 --> 00:52:51,560
Speaker 5: for the rest of my life. That's not how it works.

1035
00:52:51,640 --> 00:52:54,319
Speaker 5: Because we live in a world whereas people like to

1036
00:52:54,320 --> 00:52:56,280
Speaker 5: take advantage of people and they like took control.

1037
00:52:57,200 --> 00:52:58,400
Speaker 1: They're really charismatic.

1038
00:52:58,560 --> 00:53:01,719
Speaker 2: Yes, and you know, we're not gonna always catch it.

1039
00:53:02,160 --> 00:53:05,120
Speaker 5: And if we wind up, you know, bumping up against

1040
00:53:05,160 --> 00:53:08,920
Speaker 5: some narcissism, that doesn't mean our healing. Thus at this

1041
00:53:09,080 --> 00:53:12,560
Speaker 5: point is you know, is not legitimate. It is. It

1042
00:53:12,719 --> 00:53:14,160
Speaker 5: just means there's a lot of dark and light in

1043
00:53:14,200 --> 00:53:16,399
Speaker 5: the world, however you want to phrase it. That does

1044
00:53:16,440 --> 00:53:19,080
Speaker 5: not mean that there's something wrong with us, or we

1045
00:53:19,200 --> 00:53:21,799
Speaker 5: have not been healing or what have you. And I

1046
00:53:21,840 --> 00:53:24,319
Speaker 5: still meet people that are like that and I'm like,

1047
00:53:24,960 --> 00:53:26,640
Speaker 5: let me write that down. I didn't see that as

1048
00:53:26,719 --> 00:53:31,200
Speaker 5: part of you know, that passive aggressiveness, that little jealousy

1049
00:53:31,280 --> 00:53:31,759
Speaker 5: type of thing.

1050
00:53:31,760 --> 00:53:32,720
Speaker 2: I didn't see that before.

1051
00:53:33,080 --> 00:53:35,359
Speaker 5: I'm not saying that equates narcissism, but I'm just saying

1052
00:53:35,440 --> 00:53:36,200
Speaker 5: certain traits.

1053
00:53:36,760 --> 00:53:39,080
Speaker 2: I'll just take the narcissism word out. Toxic people.

1054
00:53:39,840 --> 00:53:42,359
Speaker 5: You know, we're going to bump into them, but we

1055
00:53:42,440 --> 00:53:44,279
Speaker 5: learn faster, we can pick it up quicker than we

1056
00:53:44,320 --> 00:53:47,000
Speaker 5: did maybe ten years ago. And so that's the thing

1057
00:53:47,600 --> 00:53:51,200
Speaker 5: that's helped me to being compassionate to myself and kind

1058
00:53:51,239 --> 00:53:54,200
Speaker 5: to myself because I I'm still wired like that a

1059
00:53:54,200 --> 00:53:56,319
Speaker 5: little bit. But if I don't catch it early, I'll

1060
00:53:56,320 --> 00:53:59,239
Speaker 5: may cry like dag like we haven't even been through enough.

1061
00:53:59,640 --> 00:54:02,880
Speaker 5: But it's like, it's okay, yeah, I didn't know, you know,

1062
00:54:03,320 --> 00:54:06,600
Speaker 5: and you now know. Let's add this to our repertoire

1063
00:54:06,640 --> 00:54:10,040
Speaker 5: of things to look out for. But it's okay, you

1064
00:54:10,080 --> 00:54:13,120
Speaker 5: did your best, and let's turn the page. That's always

1065
00:54:13,120 --> 00:54:16,000
Speaker 5: in my mind, turning the page. I'm not at chapter

1066
00:54:16,040 --> 00:54:17,279
Speaker 5: one anymore, you know.

1067
00:54:17,440 --> 00:54:21,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm not spiritualizing it, turning a page in a real, physical,

1068
00:54:21,640 --> 00:54:22,439
Speaker 4: regulated way.

1069
00:54:22,600 --> 00:54:25,200
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, in a real way, you know, and kind

1070
00:54:25,239 --> 00:54:27,919
Speaker 5: of like I said earlier, I think I had veered

1071
00:54:27,960 --> 00:54:32,359
Speaker 5: off or whatever. That's spiritualizing things only exclusively. It's not

1072
00:54:32,400 --> 00:54:36,239
Speaker 5: going to fully help us in that healing way. And

1073
00:54:36,280 --> 00:54:39,080
Speaker 5: so again, kind of getting back to black survivors, some

1074
00:54:39,120 --> 00:54:43,200
Speaker 5: of these perspectives we've never heard of. Yeah, that's why

1075
00:54:43,200 --> 00:54:45,319
Speaker 5: I said there's a lot of psycho education that needs

1076
00:54:45,400 --> 00:54:49,200
Speaker 5: to go into I'm not saying we're uneducated, but because

1077
00:54:49,239 --> 00:54:52,560
Speaker 5: spirituality has been very dominant for us as a people

1078
00:54:52,640 --> 00:54:56,120
Speaker 5: even before we came over here, we're going to automatically,

1079
00:54:56,160 --> 00:54:59,799
Speaker 5: by default, kind of spiritualize things. And that doesn't mean

1080
00:54:59,800 --> 00:55:02,160
Speaker 5: you let that go. It's the both. And let's start

1081
00:55:02,200 --> 00:55:05,800
Speaker 5: incorporating the fact that this type of trauma and abuse,

1082
00:55:06,239 --> 00:55:10,000
Speaker 5: it affected your body, it affected your psyche. You know,

1083
00:55:10,239 --> 00:55:12,560
Speaker 5: there's a whole lot of rewiring of the mind and

1084
00:55:12,600 --> 00:55:15,440
Speaker 5: how you think that has to happen now, So you know,

1085
00:55:15,640 --> 00:55:18,040
Speaker 5: some of these perspectives I like to bring to the

1086
00:55:18,080 --> 00:55:21,280
Speaker 5: table with you know, clients and the community.

1087
00:55:21,440 --> 00:55:22,279
Speaker 2: So yeah, I.

1088
00:55:22,200 --> 00:55:24,879
Speaker 1: Love that so much. Where did you have more? What

1089
00:55:24,920 --> 00:55:26,200
Speaker 1: was your question from ten minutes ago?

1090
00:55:26,280 --> 00:55:29,600
Speaker 3: Oh it's okay, it was just responding. It wasn't even

1091
00:55:29,760 --> 00:55:31,960
Speaker 3: it honestly was just basically the same thing I already said,

1092
00:55:31,960 --> 00:55:36,440
Speaker 3: which is the life shelf metaphor is also helpful for

1093
00:55:36,480 --> 00:55:38,200
Speaker 3: me as someone who is the way that I am,

1094
00:55:38,280 --> 00:55:40,480
Speaker 3: because I want to figure it all out right now.

1095
00:55:41,000 --> 00:55:42,759
Speaker 3: I want to know exactly where I'm going. I want

1096
00:55:42,760 --> 00:55:44,840
Speaker 3: to know what the answer is. I want that certainty.

1097
00:55:45,360 --> 00:55:49,520
Speaker 3: And there's something so calming and present about being like,

1098
00:55:49,680 --> 00:55:51,960
Speaker 3: I don't need to touch that right now.

1099
00:55:52,320 --> 00:55:54,640
Speaker 5: You don't have to touch everything at the same time,

1100
00:55:55,040 --> 00:55:58,560
Speaker 5: and don't feel a shame if you waited some time

1101
00:55:58,640 --> 00:56:01,319
Speaker 5: and you want to go touch a pot topic and

1102
00:56:01,360 --> 00:56:03,520
Speaker 5: your body still may not be ready for it, that

1103
00:56:03,760 --> 00:56:07,040
Speaker 5: is the indicator. You know, cognitively you might be ready

1104
00:56:07,040 --> 00:56:09,360
Speaker 5: for a topic, but your body maybe like not now,

1105
00:56:09,920 --> 00:56:14,040
Speaker 5: and respecting your body's voice too, and incorporating that and saying, okay,

1106
00:56:14,840 --> 00:56:16,920
Speaker 5: you know, we'll wait. In another term I use is,

1107
00:56:17,160 --> 00:56:19,120
Speaker 5: you know, we'll wait till our legs are strong enough

1108
00:56:19,320 --> 00:56:22,280
Speaker 5: to stand up and grab that topic and actually start

1109
00:56:22,719 --> 00:56:24,919
Speaker 5: to look at it and embody it and to work

1110
00:56:24,960 --> 00:56:30,440
Speaker 5: through it. The body loves us slowing down and incorporating

1111
00:56:30,480 --> 00:56:33,719
Speaker 5: it in our healing process. You can't skip over the body.

1112
00:56:33,760 --> 00:56:38,480
Speaker 5: And again that's to answer I can no.

1113
00:56:39,120 --> 00:56:43,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, you're right, and it takes a very different voice

1114
00:56:43,840 --> 00:56:47,600
Speaker 4: than the voice we've been installed from religious or cultic

1115
00:56:47,719 --> 00:56:50,000
Speaker 4: language and therapy.

1116
00:56:50,840 --> 00:56:53,560
Speaker 3: Where can people find you, find your support or find

1117
00:56:53,560 --> 00:56:54,200
Speaker 3: your podcast?

1118
00:56:54,360 --> 00:56:55,600
Speaker 2: Nikkiji speaks dot com.

1119
00:56:55,640 --> 00:56:58,399
Speaker 5: It is my website, so if anyone's interested in just

1120
00:56:58,680 --> 00:57:00,560
Speaker 5: chatting and see if we, you know, good fit for

1121
00:57:00,600 --> 00:57:03,879
Speaker 5: each other for coaching, they can check me out there.

1122
00:57:04,320 --> 00:57:07,800
Speaker 5: All my social media handles are are on my website.

1123
00:57:08,239 --> 00:57:10,960
Speaker 5: And then for the support group we have for the

1124
00:57:10,960 --> 00:57:14,360
Speaker 5: black community, you can go to meetup dot com and

1125
00:57:14,440 --> 00:57:17,920
Speaker 5: you'll find Black Religious Trauma Recovery Network is the title

1126
00:57:18,080 --> 00:57:21,880
Speaker 5: of the group, and we meet every second and for Thursday.

1127
00:57:23,360 --> 00:57:25,720
Speaker 2: I think you're airing this in the month of June.

1128
00:57:25,760 --> 00:57:30,640
Speaker 5: This whole month, we're having a special events spaces online

1129
00:57:30,800 --> 00:57:34,360
Speaker 5: free for the month of June Pride Month, and just

1130
00:57:34,400 --> 00:57:37,880
Speaker 5: talking about that intersectionality between being you know, part of

1131
00:57:38,000 --> 00:57:42,480
Speaker 5: lgbt q I, a community, and a Black religious trauma survivor,

1132
00:57:42,520 --> 00:57:46,760
Speaker 5: which the complexities are like you know, but we're giving

1133
00:57:46,760 --> 00:57:50,400
Speaker 5: space for voices, we're honoring survivors, we're honoring who they are.

1134
00:57:51,040 --> 00:57:54,480
Speaker 5: Is an opportunity to be seen and you know, you

1135
00:57:54,480 --> 00:57:58,520
Speaker 5: don't have to code switch. We understand the language, and

1136
00:57:58,720 --> 00:58:01,440
Speaker 5: you know, hopefully it's a place where people feel that

1137
00:58:01,480 --> 00:58:04,200
Speaker 5: they are empowered and encouraged you know, when they come.

1138
00:58:04,280 --> 00:58:04,920
Speaker 2: So it's free.

1139
00:58:05,720 --> 00:58:08,320
Speaker 5: But for the month of June you can go on

1140
00:58:08,360 --> 00:58:10,440
Speaker 5: the website on the platform and you'll see all the

1141
00:58:10,480 --> 00:58:11,280
Speaker 5: events we're having.

1142
00:58:12,000 --> 00:58:14,960
Speaker 1: Amazing. This is so important, this work that you're doing.

1143
00:58:15,080 --> 00:58:17,520
Speaker 3: And I really really appreciate you coming on and sharing

1144
00:58:17,520 --> 00:58:18,240
Speaker 3: your story with us.

1145
00:58:18,320 --> 00:58:20,560
Speaker 2: Yes, you ladies were fun. I'm like, did I share

1146
00:58:20,600 --> 00:58:21,000
Speaker 2: too much?

1147
00:58:23,360 --> 00:58:23,840
Speaker 1: All right?

1148
00:58:24,240 --> 00:58:27,640
Speaker 3: Big things to Nikki Ge for coming on at long

1149
00:58:27,760 --> 00:58:33,440
Speaker 3: last giving such a wonderful interview. Megan, we kind of

1150
00:58:33,480 --> 00:58:38,880
Speaker 3: already know your deal with Nikki's five Cults you would

1151
00:58:38,960 --> 00:58:40,000
Speaker 3: join High Hop.

1152
00:58:40,680 --> 00:58:42,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, so, I guess.

1153
00:58:42,520 --> 00:58:45,200
Speaker 3: I just think that one of the points we talked

1154
00:58:45,200 --> 00:58:48,320
Speaker 3: about with Nikki is worth kind of touching on again,

1155
00:58:48,360 --> 00:58:51,640
Speaker 3: which is this idea of like, you don't have to

1156
00:58:52,000 --> 00:58:56,160
Speaker 3: do religion right now. If you want to have religion

1157
00:58:56,160 --> 00:58:59,400
Speaker 3: in your life, it's okay to take a break from it.

1158
00:59:00,080 --> 00:59:04,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, And I think religion itself puts a fear in

1159
00:59:04,880 --> 00:59:06,880
Speaker 4: you that you can't because it's like, well, what if

1160
00:59:06,960 --> 00:59:07,760
Speaker 4: Jesus comes back?

1161
00:59:07,760 --> 00:59:09,840
Speaker 1: What if you die? What if blah blah blah blah blah.

1162
00:59:09,880 --> 00:59:11,400
Speaker 1: You know, but that's fearful thinking.

1163
00:59:11,680 --> 00:59:16,400
Speaker 4: And if you're traumatized by something and you really really

1164
00:59:16,440 --> 00:59:18,520
Speaker 4: believe in God, then God is not going to be

1165
00:59:18,600 --> 00:59:21,360
Speaker 4: mad at you for taking a break.

1166
00:59:21,640 --> 00:59:22,800
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, totally.

1167
00:59:22,840 --> 00:59:24,960
Speaker 3: I think that's such a nice way to think about

1168
00:59:25,080 --> 00:59:27,200
Speaker 3: so much healing. And I mean, obviously we talked about

1169
00:59:27,200 --> 00:59:29,640
Speaker 3: this with her, but I think just like the idea

1170
00:59:29,760 --> 00:59:33,280
Speaker 3: of making any life change, cutting anything out of your life,

1171
00:59:33,920 --> 00:59:37,160
Speaker 3: or like tackling a type of healing can feel like

1172
00:59:37,400 --> 00:59:40,160
Speaker 3: so much if it's this binary of like I'm doing

1173
00:59:40,160 --> 00:59:43,200
Speaker 3: it or I'm not doing it, and that's like forever.

1174
00:59:43,880 --> 00:59:47,000
Speaker 3: It's just seems like such a helpful way to look

1175
00:59:47,040 --> 00:59:50,320
Speaker 3: at any of those things, to be like right now

1176
00:59:50,400 --> 00:59:53,200
Speaker 3: I'm not doing it or right now taking a break.

1177
00:59:53,600 --> 00:59:54,040
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1178
00:59:54,160 --> 00:59:58,480
Speaker 4: I agree. She's just incredible. Everything she said. I felt

1179
00:59:59,160 --> 01:00:01,480
Speaker 4: like I was in a a different type of church

1180
01:00:01,520 --> 01:00:04,200
Speaker 4: where I was like, yes, yes, yes, I know. So,

1181
01:00:04,400 --> 01:00:07,600
Speaker 4: I mean, yeah, church can be you know, talking to

1182
01:00:07,680 --> 01:00:11,000
Speaker 4: somebody a friend, it can be going to nature, it

1183
01:00:11,000 --> 01:00:14,440
Speaker 4: can be a million things that connect you to a

1184
01:00:14,480 --> 01:00:15,640
Speaker 4: deeper sense of self.

1185
01:00:15,760 --> 01:00:20,840
Speaker 3: So totally, yeah, amen, As we did, and we already

1186
01:00:20,840 --> 01:00:21,080
Speaker 3: did this.

1187
01:00:21,120 --> 01:00:25,560
Speaker 1: We're not doing this again. I hear you. I hear you.

1188
01:00:27,400 --> 01:00:30,240
Speaker 4: A big thanks again for Nikki g for coming on

1189
01:00:30,640 --> 01:00:34,760
Speaker 4: and letting us end too her world. That was really

1190
01:00:34,760 --> 01:00:38,120
Speaker 4: one of my favorite episodes. Come rate us five stars.

1191
01:00:38,160 --> 01:00:42,440
Speaker 4: If you so feel inclined, go listen to Nikki Jee's podcast,

1192
01:00:42,600 --> 01:00:47,080
Speaker 4: Go rate her five stars, and as always, remember to

1193
01:00:47,120 --> 01:00:50,280
Speaker 4: follow your gut, watch out for red flax.

1194
01:00:50,160 --> 01:00:57,160
Speaker 3: And never ever trust me bye. This has been an

1195
01:00:57,160 --> 01:00:59,800
Speaker 3: exactly right production hosted by me Lola.

1196
01:00:59,560 --> 01:01:03,400
Speaker 1: Blanc and Me Megan Elizabeth. Our senior producer is G. Holly.

1197
01:01:03,720 --> 01:01:05,480
Speaker 1: This episode was mixed by John Bradley.

1198
01:01:05,680 --> 01:01:09,000
Speaker 4: Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain, and our guest booker

1199
01:01:09,120 --> 01:01:10,120
Speaker 4: is Patrick Kottner.

1200
01:01:10,440 --> 01:01:12,800
Speaker 1: Our theme song was composed by Holly amber Church.

1201
01:01:13,120 --> 01:01:17,160
Speaker 4: Trust Me as executive produced by Karen Kilgarreth, Georgia Hardstark

1202
01:01:17,200 --> 01:01:18,160
Speaker 4: and Danielle Kramer.

1203
01:01:18,400 --> 01:01:20,680
Speaker 3: You can find us on Instagram at trust Me podcast

1204
01:01:20,840 --> 01:01:22,960
Speaker 3: or on TikTok at trust Me coult podcast.

1205
01:01:23,280 --> 01:01:26,360
Speaker 4: Got your own story about cults, extreme belief, our manipulation,

1206
01:01:26,760 --> 01:01:29,760
Speaker 4: Shoot us an email at trustmepod at gmail dot com.

1207
01:01:29,800 --> 01:01:32,720
Speaker 3: Listen to trust Me on the iHeartRadio app Apple podcasts,

1208
01:01:32,840 --> 01:01:34,400
Speaker 3: or wherever you get your podcasts