Speaker 1: Hey guys, exciting news. I'm really really stoked about this.
Speaker 1: On March seventh, at noon Pacific Standard time, Team Sideways
Speaker 1: is going to host an a m A on the
Speaker 1: Unresolved Mysteries subreddit on Reddit. Pretty exciting. Hell yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: So the mods will post an announcement a week prior,
Speaker 1: so if you can't join us at that time, at
Speaker 1: that date, you can post your questions there. Um, please
Speaker 1: don't email us questions will lose them and forget them.
Speaker 1: Let's try and contain this just to Reddit. But we're
Speaker 1: super excited and uh yeah, so if you can join us. Sorry,
Speaker 1: just in case somebody you know, five years from now,
Speaker 1: I was listening to this episode, not two thousand seventeen.
Speaker 1: This is not true yourself two thousand seventeen. Sorry, Thinking Sideways.
Speaker 1: I don't understand. You never know stories of things we
Speaker 1: don't know the answer too. Well. Hey, and welcome again
Speaker 1: to another episode of Thinking Sideways the podcast. The podcast.
Speaker 1: I'm Steve as always, joined by Devin Joe, and once
Speaker 1: again we get to tackle a mystery. It's a big
Speaker 1: on this one, it is, and once again it's we
Speaker 1: do this every now and again it's time for us
Speaker 1: to take on a story that's big enough that we've
Speaker 1: got to take it on as a team. Yeah, so
Speaker 1: this is one of our big shows, So be prepared.
Speaker 1: This one's going to go on for a while because
Speaker 1: there's a lot, a lot of details and intrigue and
Speaker 1: just kind of unusual things are unexpected things, despite what
Speaker 1: the Wikipedia page will tell you about this mystery. And yeah,
Speaker 1: somebody vandalized Wikipedia. Actually no, I figured out what the
Speaker 1: problem was. It was I didn't know how to use Wikipedia. Okay,
Speaker 1: And one quick note to our listeners before we get
Speaker 1: into the mystery. This story does acknowledge the existence of
Speaker 1: sex and some per marital decisions that revolve around that.
Speaker 1: So if the kids are in the room and you're
Speaker 1: listening and you're not quite sure you want them to
Speaker 1: to hear some of this, you might want to pause
Speaker 1: this one and listen to it later on your own.
Speaker 1: The story that we are going to tackle is going
Speaker 1: to be the unsolved deaths of Dr Gilbert Bogel and
Speaker 1: Mrs Margaret Chandler. And there are two people who died
Speaker 1: for unknown reasons in Australia sometime in the early hours
Speaker 1: of New Year's Day, well at five am and seven am, respectively.
Speaker 1: But okay, well, well yeah, thanks for killing the mystery
Speaker 1: all right. Before we begin, I do have to send
Speaker 1: out a huge thank you to Elena, who sent this
Speaker 1: story to us and then pointed us to a ton
Speaker 1: of resources kind of made this one happen for us
Speaker 1: to be quite yeah, it was again, thank you. Let's
Speaker 1: begin with the story. On New Year's Day three, somewhere
Speaker 1: around nine am, two teenage boys were walking along a
Speaker 1: path that runs along the Lane Cove River in Sydney, Australia.
Speaker 1: They came upon a man keeps laying off of the
Speaker 1: main path, and from the accounts that I've seen, they
Speaker 1: when they first saw him, they figured he was drunk. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's everything. That's the one that I've heard the most.
Speaker 1: This This dude was just laying there. It's New Year's morning,
Speaker 1: he's drunk. But it wasn't until they came back down
Speaker 1: that path and saw him still there that they noticed
Speaker 1: that his face had changed color and they realized that
Speaker 1: he was probably dead and they ran for help. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I heard that. They said. They walked past him, and
Speaker 1: then a couple hours later they came back and he
Speaker 1: literally had not moved at all and they thought, huh
Speaker 1: this it's kind of weird though, I mean, in that
Speaker 1: two hours, nobody else walked by him. I mean it's
Speaker 1: New Year's morning. Joe hungover exact or asleep. I'm suspecting
Speaker 1: that's what killed these two. Hangover. The hangover. I've had
Speaker 1: some killer hangovers, but not that bad. The man was
Speaker 1: thirty eight year old doctor Vogel, and he was laying
Speaker 1: face down, half undressed. Someone had he wasn't wearing his pants.
Speaker 1: Someone had taken his pants and laid them across his
Speaker 1: legs and his backside, so that from a given distance
Speaker 1: it looked like he was wearing pants. Yeah, and his
Speaker 1: underwear wasn't there, right, This is a fun fact of that.
Speaker 1: I discovered his underwear was not there, but a pair
Speaker 1: of ladies underwear was very close by to him, like
Speaker 1: Selt panties, very close by. Yes, yeah, so ladies panties.
Speaker 1: No further explained, Yes, give me just a moment. The tease.
Speaker 1: There was also, just so everybody knows, a square of
Speaker 1: carpet laid on his back, which was later discovered to
Speaker 1: have been something that was in his cart. When the
Speaker 1: police arrived, as they will do when someone finds a
Speaker 1: dead body. They searched the area and they found a
Speaker 1: second body, which was twenty eight year old Margaret Chandler
Speaker 1: forty ft away, and she had a pair of men's
Speaker 1: briefs in between her legs. That's true, she did. She did.
Speaker 1: She as Devin was kind of getting too, had some
Speaker 1: strange clothes. She was also partially undressed, but she was
Speaker 1: in a bit of a depression and had flattened beer
Speaker 1: boxes laid over her, which is an unusual place to be,
Speaker 1: especially when you're dead. But it's it's unclear to this
Speaker 1: day who covered the bodies. Was it one person covered
Speaker 1: the other, who did some other person? We don't know
Speaker 1: that well. I think we might get into some of
Speaker 1: that later on, but just to say, on the outset,
Speaker 1: we don't know how they got covered up. There were
Speaker 1: no obvious signs of damage to the body, and by
Speaker 1: that I mean no obvious trauma. They hadn't been, you know,
Speaker 1: sholing in pools of blood exactly. There was um some evidence,
Speaker 1: what's the best way to say this, There was evidence
Speaker 1: that they had been violently ill before they died. There
Speaker 1: was vomit and feces both around the bodies and in
Speaker 1: the area around them. So, yeah, I read that. It's interesting.
Speaker 1: Actually I read that there was a small amount of
Speaker 1: vomit found near Dr Bogel, like twelve ft away or no,
Speaker 1: twelve inches I'm sorry, twelve inches, not twelve ft that's
Speaker 1: really far away. That's projectile. Yeah, so that that's interesting
Speaker 1: that they are also differing accounts of that. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: there's there's some issues with this story because it's been
Speaker 1: it's been rehashed a lot, and will talk about some
Speaker 1: of that. But there was feces everywhere. Yeah, they were
Speaker 1: obvious given and I mean typically when you die, people
Speaker 1: usually let go. Yeah, but it was more than that.
Speaker 1: They were actually running around and carpet in the area. Actually,
Speaker 1: I don't think it was next to their bodies at all.
Speaker 1: There was some down by the river bank and there
Speaker 1: was some a bit of a trail, let's put it
Speaker 1: that way. They marked where they had been. Regardless, it's
Speaker 1: not a nice way to go. But this this led
Speaker 1: the police immediately to suspect that in some way they
Speaker 1: had been poisoned, but they had no idea how or
Speaker 1: what with the official cause of death for both of
Speaker 1: these individuals was listed as acute circulatory failure. But how
Speaker 1: or why was never specified. These two particular people who
Speaker 1: are on a river bank on New Year's Eve New
Speaker 1: Year's Morning together various states of undress, various states of undress,
Speaker 1: were married to different people. She was married to a
Speaker 1: man by the name of Jeffrey Chandler. He his wife.
Speaker 1: Dr Bogel's wife was named Vivian Bogel. And I hope
Speaker 1: I'm saying, I believe it's Bogel. Is how you pronounced it.
Speaker 1: We're going to say it the whole. I hope it's
Speaker 1: not wrong, because otherwise we're gonna look silly. Yeah. But
Speaker 1: but regardless, it's it's pretty obvious that they were there
Speaker 1: for a midnight encounter of as another way to put it,
Speaker 1: what's that look it up on the internet, Joe. Okay,
Speaker 1: let's give a little bit of backstory again. This is
Speaker 1: just kind of the beginning telling of it, and then
Speaker 1: we'll go into some details. Both of these individuals Dr.
Speaker 1: Bogel Miss Chandler had attended a New Year's Eve party
Speaker 1: on the night of their deaths, which was hosted by
Speaker 1: another couple by the name of Ken and Ruth Nash.
Speaker 1: Dr Bogel attended the party on his own. His wife
Speaker 1: stayed home to take care of their three chill written
Speaker 1: Mrs Chandler attended the party with her husband, Jeffrey, though
Speaker 1: he had left the party around eleven thirty that night.
Speaker 1: One odd fact about the party, and I think this
Speaker 1: is the nashest way of trying to mix things up
Speaker 1: and make it interesting. They were super interesting people, those
Speaker 1: they were. But you'll see this when you come across
Speaker 1: this case, especially if you do Google images or image
Speaker 1: searches in general, is that what they told their guess
Speaker 1: was that they wanted them to bring a piece of
Speaker 1: art that they had created themselves to the party to
Speaker 1: display for everybody to talk about. Dr Bogel brought drawing,
Speaker 1: which it's it's really kind of strange and honestly, it's weird.
Speaker 1: Let's just call it weird. It's a disembodied hand in
Speaker 1: one corner and a disembodied foot in the other corner,
Speaker 1: with a woman's face that points in two directions. If
Speaker 1: you ever seen some of those profile images where it
Speaker 1: looks like it's a face looking at you and and
Speaker 1: to the side, that's what it is. It's it's kind
Speaker 1: of got a modernist feel to it, and it made
Speaker 1: me think of the art that you'll see. There's a
Speaker 1: Russian Russian artist by the name of Alexander roj Tinko.
Speaker 1: Is it Rodchenko? I really feel bad for all of
Speaker 1: the art classes I've taken. I suddenly can't remember how
Speaker 1: to pronounce this guy's name. Regardless, it looks like work
Speaker 1: from both of those. So it's it's it's unusual. I
Speaker 1: don't know a better way to describe it. Well, you
Speaker 1: can describe it by the fact that everybody said that
Speaker 1: it was created while he was high on LSD. I mean,
Speaker 1: that's true, right, people people have speculated that that's how
Speaker 1: he made it, and the LSD is relevant to what
Speaker 1: we're talking about, which is the party. Because this story
Speaker 1: gets covered a lot by the media, the newspaper papers
Speaker 1: specifically at the time, it was a huge source of headlines,
Speaker 1: and they were not afraid to insert and exaggerate and
Speaker 1: come up with theories and just proffer them to postulate
Speaker 1: that they were the actual thing. One of the things
Speaker 1: that the news said, or these papers said, I should say,
Speaker 1: is that the party was some kind of LSD fueled orgy. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's it's a bit absurd and from everything that I've read,
Speaker 1: and actually what was going on. Yeah, it was kind
Speaker 1: of a lame party really from what I've heard. Yeah,
Speaker 1: well yeah, next I'm telling to bring booze paintings. Well,
Speaker 1: I I remember there was something about Mr Nash saying
Speaker 1: that he didn't give anybody more than two drinks. Yeah,
Speaker 1: he was dispensing quote unquote that's the term they used,
Speaker 1: is he was dispensing the drinks and he would only
Speaker 1: give people, according to at least one account that I read,
Speaker 1: that he would only give people, uh two drinks maximum.
Speaker 1: So a very sober affair. But well, let's get back
Speaker 1: to our our case in point here, which is these
Speaker 1: folks at some point in the nine Chandler not the Nashes,
Speaker 1: thank you. Uh, they were observed outside in the backyard
Speaker 1: together described in and you'll you'll see this in two
Speaker 1: different ways, either in a close conversation or kissing. Not
Speaker 1: really sure. Actually, uh you know they that's not the
Speaker 1: first night they met. It's very true. They Dr Bogel
Speaker 1: and Mrs Chandler had met at a holiday Christmas barbecue.
Speaker 1: It's Australia. Remember it's Australia, so it's summer during Christmas,
Speaker 1: so they were having a Christmas kind of Hawaiian barbecue,
Speaker 1: another one of the co workers of Mr Chandler and
Speaker 1: Dr Bogel. And in fact, it was reported by at
Speaker 1: least one person who will talk about later, that the
Speaker 1: couple Dr Bogel and Mrs Chandler had been seen canoodling
Speaker 1: perhaps that night, even intimate conversation. Well, and I don't
Speaker 1: I think it was actually accusation, was in fact that
Speaker 1: they had been making out or maybe like had a
Speaker 1: low romp in the bushes on that night, even the
Speaker 1: first night that they met. So that's worth mentioning. Is
Speaker 1: it is? It is back to the New Year's Eve party.
Speaker 1: The witness accounts say that the pair left the party
Speaker 1: together between two to three am, and the accounts very
Speaker 1: a little bit on the time, which isn't surprising. It's
Speaker 1: the middle of the night. Uh. It's important to point
Speaker 1: out that Jeffrey Chandler, if you remember earlier I had
Speaker 1: said he had left the party, he came back and
Speaker 1: he because he had gone to a different party to
Speaker 1: have drinks where you could get more than two. But
Speaker 1: he did come back to the party and had a
Speaker 1: conversation with his wife, and when he found out that
Speaker 1: Margaret wanted to not get a ride home from him,
Speaker 1: but from Dr Bogel. It wasn't really all that worried
Speaker 1: about it. He didn't care. The account that I heard
Speaker 1: was that while Mr Chandler was gone, Dr Bogel I
Speaker 1: keep wanting her for them as their first in their
Speaker 1: first names, they called Dr Bogel Gibby, right, and her
Speaker 1: name was Margaret. So given GiB had offered to give
Speaker 1: Margaret a ride home because she didn't really know where
Speaker 1: her husband had gone off to. And apparently when Mr
Speaker 1: Chandler Jeffrey came back, he said, oh, are you ready
Speaker 1: to go, Margaret? And she made no move to go,
Speaker 1: and she was sitting right next to gibb and so
Speaker 1: Jeffrey looked at GiB and said, so will you take
Speaker 1: Margaret home? And GiB just kind of looked at him
Speaker 1: and squinted his eyes for a second and then said right.
Speaker 1: And then Jeffrey laughed like that That was how that happened.
Speaker 1: Was just so weird. And we're going to get into
Speaker 1: some of the stuff about what, you know, the background
Speaker 1: on these folks people. Yeah, but the point is he
Speaker 1: left the party and he went about his way. He
Speaker 1: wasn't concerned that was going to give Margaret right home. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: more than that. This case itself was the biggest case
Speaker 1: to date for Sydney, and the police immediately went to
Speaker 1: work on it. They were reviewing all the evidence. They
Speaker 1: were trying to hunt down any bit of any lead,
Speaker 1: any bit of information that might possibly tell them what
Speaker 1: was going on. A lot of man hours were spent
Speaker 1: on this case. Like we talked about before, it's we
Speaker 1: the newspapers. They went crazy. They polluted this story badly.
Speaker 1: I don't know if either of you did this. I
Speaker 1: read some of the old newspapers. Can find them on online. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I have a favorite website about this case and it
Speaker 1: references at every point what the media was saying, which
Speaker 1: is very helpful and very bad because they just misconstrue
Speaker 1: a lot of things. I mean, it really hasn't changed either.
Speaker 1: They're just about as bad today. And we've had this
Speaker 1: conversation before. But but let's let's go ahead, and first off,
Speaker 1: let's talk about our three main players in this story. Yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: my turn. I'm going to talk about Dr bog Dr bogelh.
Speaker 1: So he's a major player in the mystery, though it
Speaker 1: doesn't actually say very much he was. His full name
Speaker 1: was Gilbert Stanley Bogle. He was born in New Zealand January.
Speaker 1: He studied physics in Britain under a Rhodes scholarship. He
Speaker 1: met and married Actually I don't know if he met
Speaker 1: her in nineteen fifty, but he married Vivian in nineteen fifty.
Speaker 1: They had three children and also a fourth after his death,
Speaker 1: and by accounts he was a good family man, except
Speaker 1: for his philandering, which apparently he did a lot of. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so I guess you can't really say give percent marks
Speaker 1: on that one. But Frank, yeah, but freends said that
Speaker 1: he was interesting, wickedly smart, uh fun um well, rounded
Speaker 1: into a whole lot of different activities and it's kind
Speaker 1: of an awesome guy. Yeah, they thought that. People thought
Speaker 1: it was pretty cool. So he moved back to New
Speaker 1: Zealand in nineteen fifty two with his family and got
Speaker 1: a university job teaching and researching in physics, which was
Speaker 1: his field. And then in nineteen fifty six he took
Speaker 1: a job in Australia with the Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial
Speaker 1: Search Organization, which I'm going to call CIERO from now on,
Speaker 1: the c s i r O, because we're going to
Speaker 1: talk about that a number of times. Yeah, it's much
Speaker 1: easier to do. Yeah. CICERO is Australia's National science agency
Speaker 1: and so they actually cover a lot of different fields
Speaker 1: of science. He got a three year appointment which began
Speaker 1: September fifty six. He started working in the cryogenics group.
Speaker 1: By by about a year later, he had been given
Speaker 1: an indefinite appointment because apparently his his chief of his
Speaker 1: division liked him so much and found him noteworthy. Was
Speaker 1: a quote. He was noteworthy for his mental powers, his
Speaker 1: breath of breadth of knowledge, has capacity for original ideas,
Speaker 1: his driving enthusiasms, range of experimental techniques, and his outstanding
Speaker 1: ability as a lecturer. Now, so this guy really liked Bogel, Yeah,
Speaker 1: he did. His name was Briggs, and he encouraged Bogel
Speaker 1: to resume his research on paramagnetic residence, which I'm not
Speaker 1: really sure that that is, and I was too lazy
Speaker 1: to look it up. It so I'm it's using radio
Speaker 1: waves and magnets as weapons. Is that the mazer? Maybe? Well,
Speaker 1: there there's talk about one point. I think maybe that's
Speaker 1: how you generate the masers are like lasers but with microwaves. Yeah,
Speaker 1: coherent The lasers, as you know, is coherent light, right
Speaker 1: I do. Now, yeah, all a little folks, all a
Speaker 1: little photons are moving in the same direction, whereas the
Speaker 1: life from the light bulb up there in the ceiling
Speaker 1: they're just like you know, stuck on scattering everywhere. The
Speaker 1: lasers they have their coherent light and then they're all
Speaker 1: move in the same direction. So yeah, it's I guess
Speaker 1: the point of the whole thing is that Dr Bogel
Speaker 1: was working on what could be considered or was encouraged
Speaker 1: to work on what could be considered for warfare and
Speaker 1: death rays and weird mad scientists stuff that's freaking cool
Speaker 1: grand side right, you know. Actually, and I checked and
Speaker 1: in an alternate time, and he actually didn't die, and
Speaker 1: he invented the warp drive in ninety seven, and then yeah,
Speaker 1: you're already wanted to get off. Yeah, Briggs, his chief
Speaker 1: recommended him for accelerated advancement. He drew attention to the
Speaker 1: fact that he'd done all this work on the recent
Speaker 1: development of the maser, which is like a lazer, like
Speaker 1: I said, uh, and his uh, his theoretic practical contribution
Speaker 1: to this development of this and apparently was developed for
Speaker 1: use in radio astronomy was apparently pretty large. Boo was
Speaker 1: a smart guy. Actually, I gotta say it's too bad
Speaker 1: he died, you know, because it was a crazy smart guy.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, it was a really smart guy. Um so
Speaker 1: his chief in nineteen sixty two called him quote the
Speaker 1: most brilliant member of the staff. For a while. He
Speaker 1: must have been off the chart smart. Vogo was offered
Speaker 1: a two year appointment in quantum electronics at Bell Laboratories
Speaker 1: in the US UH and he really wanted to take
Speaker 1: the job. Cicero granted will leave the absence to take
Speaker 1: the job, and apparently he was. People said he was
Speaker 1: very excited about going to work in America at Bell Labs.
Speaker 1: In fact, that was one of the reasons that the
Speaker 1: Nash has had thrown that party, if I remember correctly,
Speaker 1: was that or the barbecue party? One of them was
Speaker 1: part holiday party, part going away party for Yeah, you're right,
Speaker 1: I can't remember. He was to leave within I think
Speaker 1: the month. I think maybe even within a couple of weeks,
Speaker 1: so it was not far it was not far away. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but yeah, I just really kind of sad this guy
Speaker 1: died because yeah, who knows what he would have accomplished. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so you want to talk about miss Chandler Margaret for
Speaker 1: a minute. Yeah, let's talking about Wait a minute, got
Speaker 1: to talk about his hobbies and his turn on. No,
Speaker 1: this isn't a dating site, Mrs Chandler, Margaret Chandler. She
Speaker 1: was twenty years old at the time of her death,
Speaker 1: and there's not a whole lot out there on Mrs Chandler.
Speaker 1: I'll be honest with you. I don't get the impression
Speaker 1: that she was a particularly interesting human being. I just
Speaker 1: don't have that impression. I think guys were interested in her. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think she was kind of She didn't have a
Speaker 1: whole lot of external pursuits. But I think that you
Speaker 1: also need to keep in mind is that she had
Speaker 1: two small kids at the time. Yeah, she did. She
Speaker 1: She and Mr Chandler had two small children. They were
Speaker 1: aged two and eighteen months, and they had left them
Speaker 1: with them with her with her mother and father in
Speaker 1: law that night. She and her husband shared a love
Speaker 1: of vintage cars and docks and dogs. Like how boring.
Speaker 1: Come on. The weird thing is okay, I don't mean
Speaker 1: interrupt you here, but the weird thing about that is
Speaker 1: she liked vintage cars and docks. Sin's. Maybe that's because
Speaker 1: her husband really liked both of those things, and so
Speaker 1: she went along with it. So there's all these pictures
Speaker 1: of her in vintage cars because he's like, honey, get
Speaker 1: in there, let me take your picture, like you dog
Speaker 1: take your picture. Yeah, it seemed that she was the
Speaker 1: kind of person that didn't have a whole lot of
Speaker 1: going on for herself. She seemed to have been at
Speaker 1: least moderately intelligent. I think she probably was likely quite intelligent.
Speaker 1: She just kind of seemed boring, like she just kind
Speaker 1: of adopted everybody else's stuff. She seemed to be pretty reserved. Yeah.
Speaker 1: They talked about how Mr Chandler was kind of tall
Speaker 1: and outgoing, and he had this huge red beard and
Speaker 1: stood out in a room, and she, by contrast, was
Speaker 1: this kind of meek creature just at his side. It
Speaker 1: seemed that they were on the same kind of page
Speaker 1: about the way that their marriage should go. And that
Speaker 1: is to say that monogamy seemed to not have been
Speaker 1: for either of them. I don't know that she was
Speaker 1: as okay with that as her husband, but she ended
Speaker 1: up going along with She did have more than just
Speaker 1: give as a lover. She had had lovers previous to that,
Speaker 1: so I don't know what that necessarily means, but it
Speaker 1: does implicate to me that she was at least kind
Speaker 1: of okay with it, given it a shot. And apparently
Speaker 1: Jeffrey had been pretty absent from his wife's life for
Speaker 1: most of nineteen sixty two. He chose to spend his
Speaker 1: time kind of more with friends instead of his wife
Speaker 1: and two young sons. Also had a girlfriend named Pam.
Speaker 1: Never have a girlfriend name when you're married. That just
Speaker 1: never goes well. Yeah, Apparently after that holiday barbecue that
Speaker 1: we were talking about earlier, Margaret said to her husband
Speaker 1: that she'd like to sleep with Dr Bogel, and Jeffrey
Speaker 1: later recounted she had quote put it in the same
Speaker 1: sort of way that one might describe a Rolls Royce
Speaker 1: car has like a fleeting interest of having sex with
Speaker 1: this man. Essentially, Yeah, I think that was that was
Speaker 1: sort of the The sense that I got was that
Speaker 1: Mr Chandler said, well, if you'd like to sleep with Gibb,
Speaker 1: then you should. I'm for it, and that, you know,
Speaker 1: you get the failure that Dr Handler had fallen out
Speaker 1: of love with his wife. Mr Chandler, he was not
Speaker 1: a doctor. Okay, was a doctor. Chandler was not. I
Speaker 1: do have the sense he was kind of an interesting
Speaker 1: guy too. I don't know necessarily what attracted him to
Speaker 1: Mrs Chandler. I don't know if it was just that
Speaker 1: it was convenient. Maybe he knocked her up and they
Speaker 1: got married. I don't know. I can't remember what the
Speaker 1: circumstances were. It was just hell, let's let's talk about Jeffrey. Sure, yeah, oh,
Speaker 1: just had the fun well by note, you know how
Speaker 1: everybody knows like twenty Jessica's. Uh, there were five Margaret's
Speaker 1: at the New Year's party that they attended at the
Speaker 1: at Kennon Ruth Nash's house. There were five different Margarets.
Speaker 1: And I bet there are only like seven people there
Speaker 1: because they only served two drinks. Yeah, yeah, they were
Speaker 1: like twenty people there, Margaret. Yeah, Well, let's uh, let's
Speaker 1: talk about Jeffrey Chandler. Jeffrey Chandler also worked at the
Speaker 1: C S I R O or Cicero is Joe is
Speaker 1: putting it, which I'm going to keep using. But he
Speaker 1: worked there as a research scientist, and he actually did
Speaker 1: work in the same building as Dr Bogel. The two
Speaker 1: were they were work compatriots. They had worked together, not
Speaker 1: only just seen each other in the building before, but
Speaker 1: evidently they had worked together on at least one experiment.
Speaker 1: I believe it's only one experiment, but never really hung
Speaker 1: out in the same social circles, because jeff he Jeffrey,
Speaker 1: he hung out in a very specific sect. He did.
Speaker 1: He did. But let's let's keep going here. Chandler, Jeffrey
Speaker 1: Chandler was of course, as we said earlier, and immediate suspect,
Speaker 1: and of course the press and the police went after
Speaker 1: him really hard. And actually, in cases like this, let's
Speaker 1: see had probably the husband is always is the first
Speaker 1: one that's going to get attacked. I mean, this is
Speaker 1: standard protocol. I'm not knocking anyone for this, well, I'm not.
Speaker 1: I would dr press people that aside. They went after
Speaker 1: his lifestyles, his beliefs, and in the end, his desire
Speaker 1: to avoid the press didn't help him out at all.
Speaker 1: These are some of the things that don't help him.
Speaker 1: Jeffrey was a member of the Communist Party, would got
Speaker 1: him at a little bit of bad press. He also,
Speaker 1: as it turned out, had been working for the A.
Speaker 1: S I O, which is the Australian Security Intelligence Organization.
Speaker 1: I never got a clear bead on this, but from
Speaker 1: what I understand, what he was doing is the s
Speaker 1: i OH was trying to get him to provide information
Speaker 1: on the commun in his party. One of the things
Speaker 1: he did, he's trying to host meetings at places and
Speaker 1: try to bug the place for them. He bungled this badly.
Speaker 1: So you try to do this was Is it possible
Speaker 1: that Mr Chandler was not actually a sincere Communist and
Speaker 1: then he just basically infiltered the infiltrated the organization. I
Speaker 1: don't believe. So. I think that he agreed with things
Speaker 1: that were in the party from what I understand, But
Speaker 1: there's a bad thing about that. And the problem is
Speaker 1: is that he went ahead and signed up with the
Speaker 1: Communist Party. At that time, it was a bad thing.
Speaker 1: And to be a government employee, you could not be
Speaker 1: affiliated with with that party at counties if you're potentially
Speaker 1: I'm not I'm not sure. I'm sure. At least some
Speaker 1: of Cicero's projects were classified. Of course, yeah, and so yeah,
Speaker 1: definitely there's a good reason for that, Yes there is,
Speaker 1: But he was he while he might have been a member,
Speaker 1: he wasn't a you know, book thumping card carrying scream
Speaker 1: at the masses member. He just kind of liked their ideals,
Speaker 1: I think. But the problem was is that the a
Speaker 1: s I oh, they from what I've read, came at
Speaker 1: him and said, listen, you worked for us, or we're
Speaker 1: breaking the news and you're losing your job. And by
Speaker 1: the way, once you get blackballed from this job, you're
Speaker 1: never working in this country again. So of course he
Speaker 1: went along with him. Good idea. Yeah. Oh, and I
Speaker 1: briefly mentioned there in the list of things that people
Speaker 1: went kind of crazy about for him, was one of
Speaker 1: him was his lifestyle. Yeah, because it was kind of
Speaker 1: a swinger. He totally was a swinger. He he believed
Speaker 1: in sleeping with multiple women, and he did so, as
Speaker 1: we've already talked about while he was married to Mrs Chandler. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's that fine line of swinging versus cheating. Right, it's
Speaker 1: swinging if you're like, hey, babe, you should do this too, right,
Speaker 1: and cheating line nobody knows as you you twist the
Speaker 1: mustache and have the wink. She knew. He made no
Speaker 1: bones about it. He was very open with her. And
Speaker 1: I get the impression that for about the first year
Speaker 1: two of their relationship, I think he was faithful and
Speaker 1: then he began to stray again, but didn't make any
Speaker 1: bones about it, just said, Hey, I'm interested in this
Speaker 1: woman and I'm going to go sleep with her. And
Speaker 1: she Yeah, she was a little passive. Yea, she was
Speaker 1: a little passive. Then. I've always I've noticed that I've
Speaker 1: known a few people that were in open relationships, and
Speaker 1: I've always noticed that one partner was always much more
Speaker 1: okay with it than the other. Yes, And in fairness,
Speaker 1: that doesn't always happen always. There's that's certainly a level
Speaker 1: of consent that some people have, but often often it
Speaker 1: is that way. But like I said, he kept it
Speaker 1: no secret. But the problem was is that that lifestyle
Speaker 1: was highly frowned. Yeah, we're talking in the nineteen sixties. Yes,
Speaker 1: so this I don't think people are into the swinger
Speaker 1: thing these days. Well, I think the seventies and the
Speaker 1: eighties were kind of the high point for swingers. But
Speaker 1: late fifties, early sixties there's kind of the bohemian scene
Speaker 1: going on, which Jeffrey Chandler was involved with. So there
Speaker 1: was some uprising of it then, But as a general
Speaker 1: societal norm. Yeah, let's talk about it. We can a
Speaker 1: little bit to give a frame of reference here, Ruth
Speaker 1: Nash was outraged the night of their party because neither
Speaker 1: of the Chandlers had come by to say goodbye and
Speaker 1: thank you. She was our She talked about that even
Speaker 1: after she knew that there was a little bit impolite
Speaker 1: that that um that Margaret was dead. You know, she knew.
Speaker 1: She was outraged, and the fact that Jeffrey had shown
Speaker 1: up in like a Hawaiian shirt. He had shown up
Speaker 1: in casual clothes and he was supposed to be wearing
Speaker 1: a suit, and she was outraged at too. And so's
Speaker 1: that sort of society at least surrounding them a little
Speaker 1: bit for the most part, to give it a little
Speaker 1: bit of a frame of reference. I guess, Oh, no,
Speaker 1: wonder we left the party. Yeah, no, this party was
Speaker 1: not his speed at all. We talked about a little
Speaker 1: bit earlier that he left. What he did is he
Speaker 1: went to another party where the Nashes were too stuffy.
Speaker 1: He went to another party where he met up with
Speaker 1: Pam Logan, who was the woman that he had been
Speaker 1: having a relationship with. I believe they also worked together
Speaker 1: I'm not positive that they were co workers, but I
Speaker 1: do know that they were lovers. They had left the
Speaker 1: party that they were at together, gone back to her flat.
Speaker 1: Then when they were done doing what When they were done,
Speaker 1: he left and he went back to the Nash's party
Speaker 1: to find his wife. He was gone from that party
Speaker 1: for a good two to three hours when he finally
Speaker 1: came back. And we had said this earlier. Is that
Speaker 1: she said, no, I I want to I want to
Speaker 1: leave with Dr Bogel. He wasn't worried, and he had been,
Speaker 1: from his own accounts, encouraging her for quite some time
Speaker 1: to take a lover. And of course Bogel wasn't the
Speaker 1: first one, but he does there there are many accounts
Speaker 1: from him, And just so people don't get the wrong
Speaker 1: idea about Jeffrey Chandler, it's not as if he just
Speaker 1: said oh okay and beat feet and left. He went outside.
Speaker 1: He wasn't sure if she was really serious. He went out,
Speaker 1: he got in the car, He sat there for the
Speaker 1: amount of time that it took him to smoke the
Speaker 1: half a cigarette he evidently had sitting in the ash
Speaker 1: tray before he left. And he's actually said a number
Speaker 1: of times said he regrets not getting out of the
Speaker 1: car and walking back into the house and say no,
Speaker 1: you should come home with me. Yeah. He also has
Speaker 1: said that he thought she wasn't serious. He thought at
Speaker 1: any minute she would actually decide, Oh no, just kidding,
Speaker 1: I do want to go home with you, And so
Speaker 1: that's why he hung around so long. From that point,
Speaker 1: his actions for the night are pretty well documented. He
Speaker 1: left the party, he went back to Pam's house, He
Speaker 1: got Pam, got her in the car, they went to
Speaker 1: his parents house to collect his children. Talk about awkward
Speaker 1: showing up at three or four in the morning with
Speaker 1: your girlfriend while your wife is somewhere else to pick
Speaker 1: up your children. That they didn't seem to mind. I
Speaker 1: don't know that that's true. But I also think that
Speaker 1: he left her in the car. She wasn't happy about
Speaker 1: the whole thing either. To be roused it out at three,
Speaker 1: four four in the morning to take a row with
Speaker 1: this guy, I thought it was more like five. I
Speaker 1: thought they were. They went and hung out at Pam's
Speaker 1: house for a little while. Then they went to go
Speaker 1: pick up the kids. And I don't recollect the exact time.
Speaker 1: Like an early morning pick up, it may very well
Speaker 1: have been. But he went and got his kids, brought her,
Speaker 1: dropped her off at her house. No, did they go
Speaker 1: back to They all went back to kids and all
Speaker 1: again weird. So he obviously went and got his kids.
Speaker 1: So it's it's hard to point a finger at what
Speaker 1: he was doing because his his actions and and his
Speaker 1: trail seemed to be pretty easy to follow. Well, if
Speaker 1: you believe his girlfriend, Yeah, that very good point. His
Speaker 1: his his eyewitness, and this is also his girlfriend, so
Speaker 1: she has a bit of a reason to protect him.
Speaker 1: As we said before, Jeffrey Chandler prime suspect. The cops
Speaker 1: bring a case against him, the attorneys bring a case
Speaker 1: against him. It's a huge in quest. In the end,
Speaker 1: they don't have enough evidence and the case goes nowhere
Speaker 1: and he is never convicted of a crime. He's also
Speaker 1: said that he actually wishes that they had just tried him,
Speaker 1: that he had gone to trial, and that he had
Speaker 1: been proven innocent, because he felt that being left kind
Speaker 1: of out in the dry, he was never really exonerated.
Speaker 1: The media continued to say it was him. The whole
Speaker 1: thing was a bit of a circus because there were
Speaker 1: witnesses called that were stopped in the midst of their
Speaker 1: testimony so that they could protect The judge would say, no,
Speaker 1: we would like to protect the decency of this person.
Speaker 1: Do not answer that question. When had got into graphic,
Speaker 1: gratuitous sexual information, they would stop him. So there were
Speaker 1: there were people who some of these people will talk
Speaker 1: about later, who were going to be on the stand
Speaker 1: and the judge dismissed for those kind of reasons. So
Speaker 1: a lot of stuff didn't didn't just get brought out
Speaker 1: into the open, And you're right, it kind of hosed
Speaker 1: him in the end. Yeah, but he got a he
Speaker 1: got a book out of the deal, right, he did.
Speaker 1: He did write, Yeah, he did. I would imagine that.
Speaker 1: It's pretty hard. It's called so you think I did it?
Speaker 1: I'm not. That's not a lie, So I think I
Speaker 1: did it. Every time I think about that title, it
Speaker 1: just kind of makes me gugle because it's kind of
Speaker 1: a silly title. That's a passive aggression. Oh so you
Speaker 1: think I did it? Yeah, so screw you. Let's get
Speaker 1: into theories. Now that we've kind of given the basic
Speaker 1: about the case and the people, let's dive into some details. Okay, well, okay,
Speaker 1: we're talking about theories. So I'm going to lead off
Speaker 1: of one of my favorites was espionage cloak and dagger stuff.
Speaker 1: But it really has seemed that when everybody's turned up
Speaker 1: dead for known reasons, that the allegations of CIA or
Speaker 1: KHB involvement is usually not far behind as as opposed
Speaker 1: to bodies showing up alive. Got it, Yeah, it's it's
Speaker 1: when they're dead for unknown reasons. Yeah, there was one story,
Speaker 1: And I don't know the origins of any of these stories.
Speaker 1: They have been circulated so long, it's been so many
Speaker 1: decades that it's hard to say what the origins are.
Speaker 1: But the one that got a little traction said that
Speaker 1: Bogil have been recommended by whom I don't know as
Speaker 1: an agent for for a s i OH, which we
Speaker 1: mentioned before. It's the Australian Security and Intelligence Office, so
Speaker 1: you know, their equivalent of the CIA. So he was
Speaker 1: recommended during the nineteen fifties. But whether he was actually recruited,
Speaker 1: I don't know, and I would suspect he was not
Speaker 1: recruited by s i OH because what was he doing
Speaker 1: working in a lab for a s i OH. I
Speaker 1: suppose he could have been spying on some of his colleagues.
Speaker 1: But other than that, what was what possible value could
Speaker 1: he be to a s I Oh, I don't know. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's hard to say. I know he was we talked
Speaker 1: a little bit that he was going to be heading
Speaker 1: to the States for a post in the States. But again,
Speaker 1: why would this, you know, why would they recruit him
Speaker 1: and then bring him to the States. It's it doesn't
Speaker 1: make a lot of sense. Yeah, yeah, and that really
Speaker 1: one and and this was remember in the nineteen fifties.
Speaker 1: Was supposedly he had been maybe possibly recruited long before
Speaker 1: he knew it was going to go to the States.
Speaker 1: Of course he could have been recruited by the KGB
Speaker 1: and some some allegations of that, of course, of course, yeah,
Speaker 1: Jeffrey Chandler, And of course he was probably willing the
Speaker 1: point to figure at anybody other than himself. So he
Speaker 1: suggested that Dr Bogol and Mrs Chandler were murdered by
Speaker 1: the CIA, but with Chandler's being an unfortunate byproduct, Yeah,
Speaker 1: she was collateral damage. Yeah, but Boogel that apparently supported
Speaker 1: a recommendation by a doctor Clifford Dalton, who was a
Speaker 1: member of the Australian Energy Commission, and the recommendation was
Speaker 1: that a fast read a reactor that Dalton developed should
Speaker 1: not be sold to the US and the technology should
Speaker 1: not be shared with the US. That's nuclear technology. Yeah,
Speaker 1: fast breeding reactors, fast breeder reactors. Yeah, yeah, just he
Speaker 1: always says stuff like that, right where he's like, yeah,
Speaker 1: you obviously know everything about that, so you must too,
Speaker 1: just no idea, Okay, yeah, I feel better. Yeah. Breeder
Speaker 1: reactors are one of those one of those dilios, you know,
Speaker 1: most most reactors create just waste, whereas these things are
Speaker 1: built to actually create things like plutonium. Yeah, that's one
Speaker 1: of those things that we're not supposed to have. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So it was believed, according to Chandler, that the killing
Speaker 1: was linked to his recommendation, but apparently it was a
Speaker 1: it was a revenge kind of thing, you know, they
Speaker 1: were they were angry and so they killed him. But
Speaker 1: of course that leaves the question was Dr Dalton who
Speaker 1: actually made the original recommendation. Was he killed too? I
Speaker 1: don't believe so. I don't think it was. And he
Speaker 1: was so the original center in this case, So that's
Speaker 1: kind of weak. Tea Frankly another one who said he wasn't.
Speaker 1: He was involved, of course in research on mazers, which
Speaker 1: and some people claim that his research was actually top
Speaker 1: secret research. I don't. I've never really confirmed that. And
Speaker 1: he was due, of course to leave sister in a
Speaker 1: few weeks ago work in the USA Bell Labs, And
Speaker 1: of course Bell Labs does have some highly secret defense contracts.
Speaker 1: Whether Bogel was going to be actually, you know, in
Speaker 1: on knows, I don't know. But he had been He
Speaker 1: had been checked by the FBI before he got the
Speaker 1: Bell job. He had to be cleared by them, and
Speaker 1: apparently they didn't have a problem with him. Another report
Speaker 1: suggests that he was bumped off by the KGB to
Speaker 1: stop his research. But again, why aren't scientists dropping white flies?
Speaker 1: Because I mean, even though Bogel was a very smart guy,
Speaker 1: and let's face it, you know, there were there were
Speaker 1: other smart scientists as a group tend to be pretty intelligence. Yeah. Um.
Speaker 1: And another claim was that the CIA killed him because
Speaker 1: he was a cobl Asians who was selling secrets to
Speaker 1: the Soviets. So but yeah, and and again okay, so
Speaker 1: it was a double agent, so he was working for
Speaker 1: se O and the KGB. I don't know. And again,
Speaker 1: as always in this killing also Chandler was just collateral damage.
Speaker 1: She seems to be kind of collateral damage. And a
Speaker 1: lot of these yeah, and of course, yeah, this is
Speaker 1: a cold war, there's lots of paranoida and conspiracy. Conspiracy
Speaker 1: theories were kind of rampant. Had another suggestion that somebody
Speaker 1: made god knows who, originally he was handing over his
Speaker 1: super secret agent role to Margaret Chandler. And the reason
Speaker 1: they went to the river it was to retrieve a
Speaker 1: hidden object at a quote drop that was under the
Speaker 1: water which could only be reached at low tide. That's dumb,
Speaker 1: it's dumb. Yeah, yeah, it doesn't. She does no point
Speaker 1: for her to be secret. She doesn't strike It doesn't
Speaker 1: strike me a secret agent of material. But anyway, in
Speaker 1: this theory that while they are busy retrieving this object
Speaker 1: whatever was, enemy agents appeared, stripped the naked, killed them
Speaker 1: by holding a poisonous substances over their faces, and then
Speaker 1: dropped their bodies, cover them up a little bit, and
Speaker 1: then made their get away. What's wait, wait, now he
Speaker 1: had that square of carpet, So what's the carpet got
Speaker 1: to do with this? The carpet was just to you know,
Speaker 1: get down the river's edge, and I presumably they had
Speaker 1: to kneel down to reach down unto the water to
Speaker 1: get to this hidden object and this hidden drop. The
Speaker 1: carpet was just like to kneel on to walk on them.
Speaker 1: Although I guess it's it's possible that they were naked
Speaker 1: from the waist down because they were trying to protect
Speaker 1: their clothes while they were kneeling in muddy, gross area. Yeah,
Speaker 1: the river was pretty pretty disgusting and polluted, so that's
Speaker 1: possible anyways, Sorry continuing, Yeah, no, I mean, there's there's
Speaker 1: validity to that, but I'm not going to buy into him.
Speaker 1: See how people could go for that. People like this
Speaker 1: kind of stuff. That's why it's popular. That doesn't matter
Speaker 1: if it's true or not. Why do you think so
Speaker 1: many spy books are written? Really? Yeah, not that many
Speaker 1: good ones, unfortunately. Uh, let's see what else will we
Speaker 1: have here? There was in the nineteen eighties, journalists used
Speaker 1: the Freedom of Information Act in the US to get
Speaker 1: the classified documents which showed that j Edgar Hoover you
Speaker 1: guys probably know that name, right, India had discussed the
Speaker 1: case with the New South Wales police, and I'm not sure.
Speaker 1: I mean that's I seem to recall hearing something about
Speaker 1: there was a little bit of cooperation because the FBI,
Speaker 1: of course has labs that can do we're very space
Speaker 1: getting analysis. So there's nothing necessarily sinister about cooperation between
Speaker 1: the New South Wales police and the FBI. Yeah. I
Speaker 1: don't see anything hinky there. Uh. Some people have said
Speaker 1: the FBI may have conducted its own investigation in the murders,
Speaker 1: which I don't have any evidence for, and others have
Speaker 1: said that the US and Australian governments have been unusually
Speaker 1: secret about this case, and because because because they have
Speaker 1: no information about exactly, they had nothing to say about it.
Speaker 1: I think, yeah, So no, there's you know, I don't
Speaker 1: think any of these theories, any these espionage FPI all
Speaker 1: that sum I don't think any of them really hold
Speaker 1: any water at all. I'm on the same page. So
Speaker 1: does anybody else have any any theories I want to share?
Speaker 1: You know? We do. We have another one, which is
Speaker 1: a little bit cookie, which is that it was a
Speaker 1: sex drug or some kind of fun drug whatever, a
Speaker 1: fun drug that they took themselves, that they took themselves
Speaker 1: self administered that they overdosed on. Yeahs, yeah, I don't
Speaker 1: like if if it's going to make it more fun
Speaker 1: than have taking five times as much. Yeah, I guess
Speaker 1: that's not just Disclaimered. No, no, don't don't do that.
Speaker 1: It doesn't work. As we've talked about earlier, that the
Speaker 1: police had initially decided and come to the conclusion that
Speaker 1: they had been poisoned or they had potentially overdosed on
Speaker 1: a drug. Not an unreasonable no no, and especially when
Speaker 1: there's no outward signs of trauma. And this this isn't
Speaker 1: a logical conclusion. This theory that the sex drug theory
Speaker 1: centers around the idea that they decided this the pair
Speaker 1: Dr Bogel and Mr Chandler Gibbon Margaret decided, Hey, let's
Speaker 1: take something to heighten the experience, to increase the fun,
Speaker 1: and just make this sexual experience out of this world.
Speaker 1: I know, I know. The problem is, of course that
Speaker 1: there has been there not has been. There was extensive
Speaker 1: testing done the tissues taken from the bodies, and no
Speaker 1: substances were ever found, and I mean extensive. Every bit
Speaker 1: of usable tissue sample that was available was tested. I
Speaker 1: think the Corriner eventually ran out of tissue samples. Yeah,
Speaker 1: he did a lot of testing. He did a lot
Speaker 1: of testing it. I don't remember. Maybe one of you
Speaker 1: can help me out here. I think it's the liver
Speaker 1: and maybe another organ that they used. They did the liver.
Speaker 1: I think they did some muscle tissue. I think they
Speaker 1: did you know, kind of the standard stuff that filters
Speaker 1: or holes onto some of that stuff. Yeah, but if
Speaker 1: you've got two people, that's a lot of samples. And
Speaker 1: I wonder how much they weighed when they were buried.
Speaker 1: Now I don't know, but they took a lot of
Speaker 1: samples and in the end they were all used up.
Speaker 1: There's been a lot, and I mean a lot of
Speaker 1: speculation that the couple took LSD. The thing that you
Speaker 1: need to understand is that at this time LSD wasn't
Speaker 1: a popular drug in Australia and there wasn't a good
Speaker 1: known way to test for it. They didn't have a oh,
Speaker 1: well would run this test to see if you've been
Speaker 1: on LSD. That wasn't developed at that time. And it's
Speaker 1: also important to point out from the research that I've done,
Speaker 1: it's nearly impossible to overdose on LSD. Most folks that
Speaker 1: dive from taking the drug is not the drug itself,
Speaker 1: but there's subsequent actions thereafter. Although it's it's probably worth
Speaker 1: mentioning that with all of these allegations of LSD, of
Speaker 1: the allegations that the LSD that they had taken had
Speaker 1: been made by Dr Bogel in their lab so it
Speaker 1: was impure, or or that it messed up someone, it
Speaker 1: may not have been pure lg D. Well, yeah, I
Speaker 1: mean actually typically LSD is usually cut with something, usually
Speaker 1: usually speed, to enhance the who listen to Jenny properties
Speaker 1: of it, because LSD is actually not a terribly who
Speaker 1: llustinogenic drug. Yeah, yeah, I don't bet again, I I
Speaker 1: you know, I don't see well, yeah, regardless, I mean
Speaker 1: it's it's people die typically because of what they're doing,
Speaker 1: because whether they're on a good trip or a bad trip,
Speaker 1: they put themselves into a situation that is dangerous and
Speaker 1: they pay the price for that. So the the whole
Speaker 1: LSD sex drug fun time overdose, it's it's got some
Speaker 1: big holes in it. Yeah, O kind of I don't
Speaker 1: see anything to hear about marijuana overdose? Is it my turn? Cool?
Speaker 1: My theory, My first theory is the jealous lover theory,
Speaker 1: which makes sense a little bit. There's been a lot
Speaker 1: of songs about jealous lovers, so I can see how
Speaker 1: that would be. There are three kind of main possibilities here.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna start with the dumbest one first. They're so
Speaker 1: One of the things we glossed over was this eyewitness
Speaker 1: who was actually fairly important to the case, named Mr Shlis. So,
Speaker 1: how you would say that looks like jealous jealous Chalice,
Speaker 1: Chalice in the Palace Las anyway, however you say his name,
Speaker 1: Mr Halis actually saw he I'm going to talk about
Speaker 1: him in a more in a minute, but just trust
Speaker 1: me on this one. He's an eyewitness and he ad
Speaker 1: about the time that they placed the death of Dr
Speaker 1: Bogel and Mrs Chandler Gibbon. Margaret saw a yellow quote
Speaker 1: yellow blondie haired man, that's what it said, fleeing across
Speaker 1: the street. This path that he was driving on pretty
Speaker 1: dang close to where they ended up finding Margaret's body.
Speaker 1: I'm sure it wasn't just a jogger he was. The
Speaker 1: impression that I have is that it's just kind of
Speaker 1: a little there's the road and then there's a strip
Speaker 1: and then it's the river. So unless he like can
Speaker 1: run on top of water, because he darted across the
Speaker 1: road too towards the river, it's totally possible he was
Speaker 1: a transient any of those things. Regardless, the speculation is that,
Speaker 1: oh maybe that was Margaret's not GiB lover and he
Speaker 1: was jealous and somehow knew where they were and somehow killed.
Speaker 1: It's dumb. Yeah, you're looking at me like it's done,
Speaker 1: because it's dumb. I'm just I'm just saying things that
Speaker 1: I've seen an app on the Yellow Blonde here. No,
Speaker 1: he did not know. Next up is Margaret Fowler. She
Speaker 1: was one of gibbs lovers. They had been seeing each
Speaker 1: other for a while. Actually, I think it was like
Speaker 1: more than three years something like that. Yeah. He she
Speaker 1: she worked at Cicero with Dr Bogel and he tried
Speaker 1: to break it off a couple of times, and she
Speaker 1: said she would say things like I'll die if you do.
Speaker 1: She also told the police during the investigation that that
Speaker 1: she was going to move to America with Dr Bogel
Speaker 1: with Jip Gibb and they were going to get a
Speaker 1: flat together, that that was what was happening. She was
Speaker 1: going to go to New York with him when he
Speaker 1: left for America. No, I thought he was going to
Speaker 1: take his family with him. No, well that's not what
Speaker 1: she said. That's not what Mrs Margaret Fowler said. Just
Speaker 1: say she was thinking about all we've all seen those
Speaker 1: stories of the mistress. He said this, and he loves this,
Speaker 1: and he just he can't quite leave them yet. But
Speaker 1: we're making plans like that. That's what that sounds like
Speaker 1: to me. There are two main things here. The theory
Speaker 1: goes that Mrs Fowler Margaret Flower, as I said, there's
Speaker 1: lots of Margarets in this story. She wasn't even at
Speaker 1: the New Year's party. She's not part of the five
Speaker 1: people that NI were named Margaret at the New Year's party.
Speaker 1: She wasn't even invited to that. The theory is that
Speaker 1: she somehow knew where they were going to be and
Speaker 1: maybe follow them from the party, or maybe that was
Speaker 1: Gibbs lovers Lane place of choice and somehow, yeah, where
Speaker 1: she overpowered both of them and murdered them somehow. It's
Speaker 1: not great. The only thing that does add a little
Speaker 1: credence to this theory is a man was interviewed later
Speaker 1: named Mr. Carlson Carlton. Mr Carlton, sorry, and he said
Speaker 1: the he saw Margaret Fowler a couple of days after
Speaker 1: the murder, before it was huge news, before it had
Speaker 1: really broken. Yeah, and she said, oh, they're dead and
Speaker 1: Mr Carlton said who, And she said these two people,
Speaker 1: Margaret and Gibb. And then she kept repeating, uh, they
Speaker 1: were going to cop out and it's all going to
Speaker 1: come out, and was talking about chemical warfare and things
Speaker 1: like that. She's kind of crazy. She seems super crazy.
Speaker 1: Anything she did seem unstable, but it is worth mentioning.
Speaker 1: I think that she did kind of implicate herself to
Speaker 1: at least one witness, saying they were gonna, you know there,
Speaker 1: it's all gonna come out, it's all going to come out,
Speaker 1: and that Margaret and Gibb were somehow working together on
Speaker 1: chemical warfare and they were going to release it and
Speaker 1: that's why they were murdered. I'm going to say right now,
Speaker 1: I I can see that being as simple as it's
Speaker 1: all going to come out. Our relationship on the download,
Speaker 1: relationship is gonna come out. But then within a couple
Speaker 1: of weeks she had no problem talking about the relationship,
Speaker 1: no problem she's also one of the witnesses if I
Speaker 1: remember correctly, that never actually testified at the end quest
Speaker 1: and because of the morality reason, and she was married
Speaker 1: also right, yes, but she was also the one who
Speaker 1: said that she saw Gibb and Margaret getting busy in
Speaker 1: the bushes at the Christmas party. She was barbecue. Yeah,
Speaker 1: the barbecue, Okay, worth mentioning. Why because so much of
Speaker 1: a thing. I have no idea. Another player that we
Speaker 1: haven't really discussed yet is Ken Nash, the host of
Speaker 1: the party, the New Year's party. As we said, he
Speaker 1: was the one dispensing drinks the whole night, and as
Speaker 1: it turns out, he was mildly obsessed with this case
Speaker 1: and killed himself thirteen years give or take a day
Speaker 1: to the day a actor, Margaret and Gibb had been
Speaker 1: found dead. But although there's another significant anniverse, also worth
Speaker 1: mentioning is that, you know, honor about that day two
Speaker 1: years prior, his wife Ruth had died of cancer, So
Speaker 1: take that with a grain of salt. But since he
Speaker 1: was the one dispensing drinks, he could have easily slipped
Speaker 1: the pair something. It's it's thought that, uh, you know,
Speaker 1: he could have done that and it may have been
Speaker 1: a prank, but also maybe he was in love with
Speaker 1: Margaret too, who knows her? So we killed her and Gibb. Uh,
Speaker 1: well Gibble was Gibb was known to his friends is
Speaker 1: a bit of a prankster. So I can see that.
Speaker 1: I can see where this This has some traction. Is well,
Speaker 1: GiB played a prank on him at work, and he thought, well,
Speaker 1: I'll get him, and oh he's hanging out with Margaret. Well,
Speaker 1: oh well she's there too. I'll put it in both
Speaker 1: thereuse that explains a lot. Actually, he slipped laxatives into
Speaker 1: both their drinks because all the feces. But it wouldn't
Speaker 1: kill them that fast, but they were they were tainted. Okay, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I guess from worth noting is that it does seem
Speaker 1: like Ken Nash was kind of a boring dude. So
Speaker 1: I don't know why he would suddenly think I I'll
Speaker 1: prank him, that'll be fun. He seemed really boring. He
Speaker 1: would only want to give people to drinks. He's a square,
Speaker 1: was a square. Why would he be suddenly doing that
Speaker 1: that that doesn't fit with his personality profile. Well, he
Speaker 1: might consider doing something something like that, but slipping deadly
Speaker 1: poison in their drinks. That's not really a prank. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I agree, I think that that's he misjudged the dosage
Speaker 1: wildly though. Oh I'm gonna make him a little little
Speaker 1: I'm gonna I'm just gonna screw with him a little bit. Oops.
Speaker 1: I dumped the whole vial in. Oh well, I'll mix
Speaker 1: it between the two drinks. I don't delude it. This
Speaker 1: is where this that that runs well, and this actually
Speaker 1: flows into my next theory, which is poisoning of some kind. Right,
Speaker 1: we have been talking about poison. Let's keep talking about poison.
Speaker 1: And like I said, despite Ken's insistence that he'd quote
Speaker 1: dispensed no more than two drinks per guessed, there are
Speaker 1: a lot of reports that both Margaret and Gibb looked
Speaker 1: pretty drunk by the end of the night. They had
Speaker 1: glassy eyes, they were hunched over. Their reports were drunk,
Speaker 1: But what people are describing is they were looking very ill,
Speaker 1: very pale, kind of sweaty, clammy, glassy eyed, hunched over.
Speaker 1: It's two in the morning. Yeah, even if you're not drunk,
Speaker 1: you're tired. At two in the morning, you're gonna not
Speaker 1: look your best that now, Just so Also, you got
Speaker 1: to remember too that just because he was only serving
Speaker 1: up two drinks didn't mean people had flasks with them
Speaker 1: and stuff like. Well, and I but I do think
Speaker 1: it's probably worth mentioning that it seems people noticed this
Speaker 1: as more of an a cute thing. It wasn't like
Speaker 1: a gradual progression of them kind of getting sleepy and
Speaker 1: hunching over and getting glassy eyed and get slowly getting drunk.
Speaker 1: It was that they were talking to them, and then
Speaker 1: five minutes later they looked pretty ill. I know again,
Speaker 1: I don't mean to interrupt. I'm just trying to flesh
Speaker 1: this out and see what else could come of it
Speaker 1: if they've decided we're gonna have this trist But we're
Speaker 1: in this awkward situation in the social environment where GiB
Speaker 1: doesn't want everybody to know that he's out playing in
Speaker 1: the field, and Margaret's a little shy about that. I
Speaker 1: can see that being a bit of nerves. Do you
Speaker 1: know where I'm heading with this? Where I'm I'm gonna
Speaker 1: do this thing, but I'm kind of nervous because everybody's
Speaker 1: around and I don't I don't know how to how
Speaker 1: don't like get out of here and not make it obvious.
Speaker 1: Well they weren't. They weren't reading very secretive of it.
Speaker 1: They had told the nash Is that Gibb was taking
Speaker 1: marg at home, but that could have been under the
Speaker 1: illusion of, hey, guess what, drunk Jeffrey's not here. Could
Speaker 1: but that's the same. So they leave together, So he's
Speaker 1: being a good guy in giving her at home. The
Speaker 1: nerves of it, I don't know, people feel really weird
Speaker 1: and awkward about that. I mean, think about your friends
Speaker 1: when they meet somebody and they're they're gonna they're gonna
Speaker 1: go off together for the first time to to hook
Speaker 1: up or whatever the case. Maybe, And I've seen friends
Speaker 1: who are a little weird about the whole thing, and
Speaker 1: you watch it's like, what is going on? You don't
Speaker 1: look right? Are you okay? Are you in high school?
Speaker 1: I have seen it in high school. I have seen
Speaker 1: it in college. I have seen it in my thirties.
Speaker 1: I have seen people do this. And these people she
Speaker 1: was late twenties, he's his late thirties. People still act
Speaker 1: like that, especially in a kind of a repressed arab
Speaker 1: Is nineteen fifties, early sixties. It's you know, I can
Speaker 1: see that going in some societal norms and causing some
Speaker 1: butterflies in the stomach. Okay, it's just my take. Yeah,
Speaker 1: disputed as much as you want, or we can continue.
Speaker 1: And again, people have a way of modifying and reinterpreting
Speaker 1: their own memories. Memory is not an accurate thing, that's true.
Speaker 1: So can we just can let's just continue here. Maybe
Speaker 1: they drank some manti freeze. I didn't, but let's continue
Speaker 1: on with just keep going. So, like I said, it's
Speaker 1: possible they were poisoned before we went on this weird
Speaker 1: side quest and my quest, ken Ken would have pretty
Speaker 1: much been the only one to have been able to
Speaker 1: poison them. It's this wasn't the kind of party where
Speaker 1: you're just leaving your drink everywhere. People pretty much had
Speaker 1: their drinks in hand, and there was food at the party,
Speaker 1: but it was all the face style. So for them
Speaker 1: to have been the only ones to have gotten sick,
Speaker 1: there's really no way that it could have been the food.
Speaker 1: And it couldn't have been food poisoning because of that
Speaker 1: same thing. We're talking malicious poisoning here, right, not accidental,
Speaker 1: Not oh we accidentally took too many drugs. We took it.
Speaker 1: We're talking about somebody slipping them something at some point. Interestingly,
Speaker 1: aside from actual consumption drink or eating poison, there have
Speaker 1: been some suggestions about aerosol poisons. What yeah, the gas
Speaker 1: poisons that would be in an aerosol form. One suggestion
Speaker 1: is that it could have been a can that was
Speaker 1: placed under the pedals of gibbs car that when he accelerated,
Speaker 1: it would have dispensed it. This is almost going in
Speaker 1: tandem with Joe. Yeah, it's a very cloak and dagger
Speaker 1: way to go about it. Okay, So that that was suggested.
Speaker 1: It was also suggested that somebody could have come and
Speaker 1: sprayed them in the face with the aerosol of some
Speaker 1: kind at some point, at some point point there. Gosh,
Speaker 1: there's some very interesting aerosol suggestions. And and in fairness,
Speaker 1: when gibbs car was found, his keys were tucked behind
Speaker 1: his um advisor. Yeah sunvisor, so was making that motion
Speaker 1: of moving the sununum. So it's possible that if somebody
Speaker 1: had placed an aerosol can under a pedal, that it's
Speaker 1: not such a problem that it was not there when
Speaker 1: the police searched the car, because it could have been removed. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but just imagine that you get in the car, he's
Speaker 1: stepping the gas and it's sound and split unker that
Speaker 1: made funny noises. His car was Yeah. And as far
Speaker 1: as getting sprayed in the face by somebody, well I
Speaker 1: know what would have happened. Then they would have they
Speaker 1: would have their last dime. I was crawled over to
Speaker 1: the muck and scrawled the name of their their murderer
Speaker 1: in the muck. That's what always happens. Another suggestion is
Speaker 1: that it could have been a small capsule placed under
Speaker 1: the pedals, so it would have burst. The capsule that
Speaker 1: would have been slowly filled the car with noxious fumes
Speaker 1: and it would have poisoned them that way. Or even better,
Speaker 1: it could have been dry ice placed in the back
Speaker 1: of his car. And I think I like this theory
Speaker 1: because I think acute illness does fit with a lot
Speaker 1: of the facts of the story, discounting even that they
Speaker 1: looked maybe ill when they left. Um. So here's my
Speaker 1: initial problem with all of these gases released in the car.
Speaker 1: It's New Year's Day in Australia, which means it's high summer.
Speaker 1: The windows are not going to be rolled up in
Speaker 1: the heat or on. The windows are probably going to
Speaker 1: be down because it's warm. But it's still like four
Speaker 1: or five in the morning, so it's probably it was
Speaker 1: probably as cool. I just understanding it was kind of
Speaker 1: cool out there. That was my understanding to Okay, I'm
Speaker 1: just thinking of like, well, it's high summer. I will
Speaker 1: you know, even if I have to get my car
Speaker 1: at six am, I I end up cracking the window
Speaker 1: because it's warm in the car because it's been shut
Speaker 1: up for a couple of hours while it's still hot.
Speaker 1: Because if he got at the part, he got to
Speaker 1: the party went nine o'clock, but he's still going to
Speaker 1: be stuffy. Yeah, but if the windows were only cracked,
Speaker 1: not all the way down, it could still if it
Speaker 1: were coats into enough talks in that's true. I'll give
Speaker 1: you that soles as I was talking about earlier. So
Speaker 1: he in the palace. You guys are the worst. He
Speaker 1: happened to be parked kind of where they found gibbs
Speaker 1: car when Gibb and Margaret pulled up, so he's actually
Speaker 1: an eyewitnessed to some of their last moments. It was
Speaker 1: likely around four I would say probably around four am,
Speaker 1: maybe closer to five. He had just parked his car.
Speaker 1: He was going to go for a walk, early morning
Speaker 1: walk because I guess people are crazy like that sometimes.
Speaker 1: And he said that a car pulled alongside it, alongside
Speaker 1: him or up close to him. It was Gibbs car,
Speaker 1: and that there was a woman in it who he
Speaker 1: couldn't see. He said that he had the impression that
Speaker 1: the driver was about to speak to him but didn't,
Speaker 1: and he also said that the driver looked pale, but
Speaker 1: he thought maybe he was just drunk, which is fair. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: So Silis went out for the walk and returned to
Speaker 1: his car about an hour later, and he noticed that
Speaker 1: actually the car had been moved reparked, which is a
Speaker 1: bit odd and fair car Gibbs car, Yeah, had been reparked.
Speaker 1: But Silas had only one hand, so he couldn't Yeah,
Speaker 1: so he couldn't turn his car around, so he did
Speaker 1: this little loop which is the path that the boys
Speaker 1: were walking, and that's when he saw the guy dart across.
Speaker 1: It wasn't the same path, but it was that it
Speaker 1: was the car track, not the footpath, because the footpath
Speaker 1: crosses the road and the road goes across the bridge. Yeah, sorry,
Speaker 1: that's no, it's it's a golf course path. Yeah, but
Speaker 1: it's it's not for driving your car down. But he
Speaker 1: did drive his car down it. Oh he did, yes,
Speaker 1: because he couldn't get turned around. He was parked on
Speaker 1: it and he couldn't get turned around, so he took
Speaker 1: the Okay, I totally missing truth that I thought he
Speaker 1: went made a loop through a different route. There's a
Speaker 1: map that describes it pretty well, and I remember looking
Speaker 1: at it. I, just as I always do, mixed up
Speaker 1: a map. Fair totally fair anyway, that's that's when he
Speaker 1: saw the aforementioned blondie haired band, yellow blondie haired man.
Speaker 1: There certainly some oddities here. Gibb was a scientist, and
Speaker 1: many people believed, as we said, he could have been
Speaker 1: target for assassination. Aerosol poisoning would have been a fairly
Speaker 1: clean way to assassinate somebody. It seems the onset of
Speaker 1: whatever happened was pretty acute. Vomit and poop everywhere. You know,
Speaker 1: gibbs body, the stripping down of their clothes. I also
Speaker 1: have some problems with the lover's lane theory in general,
Speaker 1: that they would go out into the forest to have
Speaker 1: their liaison. Why not just park your car in a
Speaker 1: secluded area in the Yeah, that evidently is one of
Speaker 1: the reasons that GiB had that piece of carpet. Yeah,
Speaker 1: is carpet. It's she could put the carpet down on
Speaker 1: the ground and then sit on the carpet and not
Speaker 1: get dirty from touching the carpet, right, but she wouldn't
Speaker 1: get muddy. How's that, Joe, Yeah, that sounds good. They
Speaker 1: did pick kind of a scuggy spot that they did. Yeah,
Speaker 1: So I don't know, I have problems with that, just
Speaker 1: in general. The whole Lover's Lane thing, it looks it does,
Speaker 1: truly to me, look like two people who got really
Speaker 1: sick and started running to have their sickness wherever. Additionally,
Speaker 1: Margaret being found forty five ft away from Gibb that's
Speaker 1: odd to me. And the corner did place her time
Speaker 1: of death two hours after his. Eventually he did. They
Speaker 1: initially thought that they had died at the same time,
Speaker 1: but then it was found that he died at five
Speaker 1: am and she died at seven a m ish. So poison,
Speaker 1: I don't know, it metabolizes differently in your body. It
Speaker 1: could explain why they died at different times. Yeah, if
Speaker 1: it were under his seat, he would have gotten most
Speaker 1: of it and she would have gotten some of it.
Speaker 1: I don't know. Disoriented, She could have been disoriented. That's
Speaker 1: why she had his underwear that far away. She's trying
Speaker 1: to pull her underwear up and then just fell over
Speaker 1: and died. I don't know, it's a It does seem
Speaker 1: to me that they just were really sick for whatever reason.
Speaker 1: There's there's stuff about the fact that they were at
Speaker 1: the river bank. Yeah, and that's where the trail of
Speaker 1: feces begins. So but I don't I don't know that
Speaker 1: at the river bank, on a muddy river bank is
Speaker 1: where I would go to have a nighttime affair. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't think that's where the mucky Yeah not not
Speaker 1: not where I would consider optical romance. Then again, romance
Speaker 1: probably wasn't really involved in this. Yeah, but I'm a
Speaker 1: little surprised that Dr Bogolis, at least it was ignorant
Speaker 1: of this this thing. Like, for example, people think sex
Speaker 1: on the beach is really romantic, bad idea because the
Speaker 1: kind of germs and stuff that exists and toxins that
Speaker 1: exists in sand on beaches, and I'm sure it's the
Speaker 1: same for this river are things that you really don't
Speaker 1: want to get inside your body. Yeah, because we were
Speaker 1: about to go down a really bad trail. Can we
Speaker 1: just go to the next theory? Oh yeah, no problem.
Speaker 1: But yeah, there's one last series and this is something
Speaker 1: that's gaining traction in recent year years, and this theory
Speaker 1: is that Bogel and Chandler were killed by hydrogen sulfide poisoning.
Speaker 1: The big proponent of this theory is an Australian guy
Speaker 1: named Peter Butt who made a documentary on the topic
Speaker 1: and he also that was aired by the Way in ABC,
Speaker 1: which is the Australian broadcast channel I think um. And
Speaker 1: he also wrote a book that talks a little bit
Speaker 1: more extensively about his theory, and the book is called
Speaker 1: Who Killed Dr Bogel and Mrs Chandler? And I want
Speaker 1: to give another shout out to Elena Listener we talked
Speaker 1: about at the beginning, who suggested this episode, and she
Speaker 1: was kind enough to send us a copy of the book.
Speaker 1: Was really awesome because yeah, we all read. Steve was like,
Speaker 1: everybody read this, Yeah it was. It was one of
Speaker 1: my first actual homework assignments for everybody. A real book.
Speaker 1: Here you go, not just check out this silly black
Speaker 1: background website. Yeah, I know. And and by the way,
Speaker 1: I don't know who's responsible, but sorry Elena for the
Speaker 1: chocolate fingerprints. That was Devin. I'm sure it was Joe. Okay, fine.
Speaker 1: The spot on the river where they were found is
Speaker 1: surrounded by mangrove trees. Well that's it. There you go,
Speaker 1: Denver mangrove trees. They might have been CAJB spies. I
Speaker 1: don't know, but it happens that mangrove trees actually do
Speaker 1: emit hydrogen sulfide. It's in According to experts, it's theoretically
Speaker 1: possible to be gas to death in a mangrove swamp.
Speaker 1: It's really unlikely, but if if air conditions are just right.
Speaker 1: I there, the air is totally stagnant, no wind, and
Speaker 1: if you were in a low spot in the ground
Speaker 1: by the time of day actually makes a difference too,
Speaker 1: then it's theoretically possible to be gassed just by mangroves.
Speaker 1: Not likely, not likely, but that's a one in axilian chance. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but there was there was something else that was augmenting
Speaker 1: the hydrogen sulfide concentration in the area, and then that
Speaker 1: was pollution. There had in the past ben Tani factory
Speaker 1: is a chemical company, of Vinegar Gap company. All these
Speaker 1: guys dump and waste into the river. There was also
Speaker 1: a sewer super line, which I don't know if the
Speaker 1: sewer line leaked or not, but they actually laid the
Speaker 1: super line right down the middle of the river. Yeah,
Speaker 1: they always do, yeah, yeah uh. And also that this
Speaker 1: is probably the worst defender, was the Chicago Cornflower and
Speaker 1: Starch mill, which dumped about twenty million gallons of sulfurous
Speaker 1: waste into the river every year from until about sixty
Speaker 1: years later when they closed. So a lot of that
Speaker 1: stuff accumulated. The sulfurous waste apparently killed bottle plants and fish.
Speaker 1: It caused a rise in what's called separal phytic bacteria,
Speaker 1: which I don't know much about bacteria, to be honest
Speaker 1: with you, but apparently this particularly kind of bacteria they
Speaker 1: live on dead organic matter, organic matter, and they produce
Speaker 1: hydrogen sulfide. Yeah. That may be the kind of stuff
Speaker 1: where you see a pond that it is full of
Speaker 1: algae and everything dies, and then the algae dies and
Speaker 1: then nothing ever grows in it again because the follow
Speaker 1: that bacteria, Because we've all seen those kind of dead ponds.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I know, yeah. And also making matters even worse,
Speaker 1: is they constructed a weird downstream from the site. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's a weir is a low dam. And the idea
Speaker 1: of a weird is that it's low enough that water
Speaker 1: can still flow over the top of it, but it
Speaker 1: still dams it up and creates like a pond or
Speaker 1: pool behind. Problem with the weir is all the stuff
Speaker 1: that's flowing downstream can most of it's like just accumulating,
Speaker 1: it's not just flowing out to sea. And actually this river,
Speaker 1: the river, the Lancomb River, code river that we're talking about,
Speaker 1: is actually a tributary of a larger river, so it's
Speaker 1: not flowing directly in the sea, of course, but but anyway,
Speaker 1: so and also title action can't come up like tidle
Speaker 1: water from downstream can't be shoved up and sort of
Speaker 1: flush it out and back downstream. None of that's going
Speaker 1: on because the weird is blocking the path because all
Speaker 1: of this stuff that that's getting dumped in the rivers
Speaker 1: acting like a sediment and just building up. Yeah, pretty much.
Speaker 1: So that's the theoretically as possible that there could be
Speaker 1: you know, that can actually be eruptions of hydrogen sulfide yeah, bubbles,
Speaker 1: bubbles in the mud go burst and then next thing
Speaker 1: you know, a big cloud of hydrogen sulfide comes out.
Speaker 1: And residents of the area had been complaining for decades
Speaker 1: about a really bad rotten egg smell in the area,
Speaker 1: in the neighborhood, and well, that's what hydrogen sulfide smells like. Cool. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that stinks. Yeah, yeah, at a level of one for you. Sorry,
Speaker 1: yeah that was lamb Oh, come on, I was trying. No,
Speaker 1: it was a high quality attempted humor. So one part
Speaker 1: per million, you'll notice it sort of notice a bad
Speaker 1: smell at about thirty parts pavilion itself sulfide. Yeah, about
Speaker 1: thirty parts per million and up it smells like rotten
Speaker 1: egg eggs. And then apparently at fit between fifty and
Speaker 1: a hundred perch familiar, it smells supposedly kind of sickeningly sweet.
Speaker 1: And I don't know, I haven't smelled the stuff. I
Speaker 1: can't say I've ever smelled that concentration, and I'm happy
Speaker 1: about that. I don't know if I've ever whipped this stuff.
Speaker 1: Tell you the truth, over a hundred parts familiar and
Speaker 1: it paralyzes your olfactory nerve almost instantly, so you can't
Speaker 1: smell it, so you can't smell it, and it's invisible
Speaker 1: to you. Yeah, you just wouldn't notice it. You just
Speaker 1: knows yourself feeling sick and puking and having breathlessness, Yeah,
Speaker 1: and you'd go, gee, I wonder what's going on with this?
Speaker 1: You know, and then you just uh, you know, not
Speaker 1: feeling so hot. Yeah, I'm puking. Okay, Well, so what
Speaker 1: you would probably just die, right, I mean, unless you
Speaker 1: left the area, unless you're lucky enough to leave the area. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, I don't know. I mean if I
Speaker 1: walked into a room, for example, and I started getting
Speaker 1: breathless and puking, I probably would walk out of the room. Yeah, hopefully, Yeah, Yeah,
Speaker 1: but yeah, I never know. I mean, they're going to
Speaker 1: be auction in. Deprived brain is not gonna be functioning
Speaker 1: on a dent, so who knows. I'm told that at
Speaker 1: two hundred parts per million, respiratory failure, respiratory failure occurs
Speaker 1: within seconds, and at a thousand parts per million, which
Speaker 1: we're not even close to that, but a single breath
Speaker 1: can cause cardiac arrest just like that. So the levels
Speaker 1: here were probably in the in the hundred plus range
Speaker 1: at the river, but they weren't measured, so nobody knows
Speaker 1: exactly sure. It's it's kind of anecdotal. Yeah, it appears
Speaker 1: that a hundred parts per million was not uncommon in
Speaker 1: the area on still windless days. Um. And because it's
Speaker 1: heavier than air, it tends to pool and hollows and
Speaker 1: low spots like down right over the river and stuff
Speaker 1: like that, you know, like you know, down the riverbed.
Speaker 1: And so I would see at the low points along
Speaker 1: the bank and to anybody that's breathing it in, when
Speaker 1: it reaches those concentrations of a plus a hundred percent
Speaker 1: parts per million, you don't know this there. You just
Speaker 1: notice all of a sudden you're breathless, you're not yes,
Speaker 1: and you get confused. You just don't make good choices
Speaker 1: and you wind up, you know when I mean, these
Speaker 1: people probably could have saved themselves. I buy the theory.
Speaker 1: I think it's the most So you're you're in. You're
Speaker 1: in for this one. Well this is my number two one.
Speaker 1: Oh well, let's keep going on this one before you
Speaker 1: go from you because I think I know what your
Speaker 1: number is going to be. Of course. Okay, So so yeah,
Speaker 1: they could have saved themselves. I mean, obviously, if their
Speaker 1: brains have been functioning at they could have just like
Speaker 1: stood up. Just standing up might have done it, might
Speaker 1: have done the trick ranging themselves up that high, and
Speaker 1: certainly walking up the river bank getting away would probably
Speaker 1: have done a lot. Yeah, that's fair. I think if
Speaker 1: you add in that they may have been drunk or
Speaker 1: otherwise inebriated, I buy it a little more. But they
Speaker 1: were horizontal. Do you have the problem of him dying
Speaker 1: so much faster than her, and also her making it
Speaker 1: forty five ft away from him. That's not a small
Speaker 1: a distance. It's not a huge distance, but it's not
Speaker 1: like right there. And then I guess none of these
Speaker 1: theories really addressed the fact that they're all covered up.
Speaker 1: But you know, well, but let me let me and
Speaker 1: I'm trying to figure out how to not say this
Speaker 1: too graphically. But if they are in the act and
Speaker 1: he is excited, he's probably going to be taking very
Speaker 1: deep breasts and breathing in quite rapidly, where if she
Speaker 1: is not as excited, she's breathing more normally. He may
Speaker 1: have been taking more of it in, and as they
Speaker 1: try to scramble away, he can't make it, which is
Speaker 1: why she gets farther away and doesn't die as quickly.
Speaker 1: Or the other thing is possibly he was on the
Speaker 1: bottom when she was on the top. I mean, I mean,
Speaker 1: I'm just thinking of it in terms of respiration. Is
Speaker 1: where I was taking that is that he may have
Speaker 1: been very excited and rapidly breathing and getting more of it.
Speaker 1: I mean, if we're going to say this is what
Speaker 1: it is, and I'm I'm not on this theory, well,
Speaker 1: but yeah, it's got his weirdness is number one being
Speaker 1: at least a couple more people should have died over
Speaker 1: the years by this river. Additionally, the people who found,
Speaker 1: you know, not so long after or hay Less, who
Speaker 1: was in that same area the time, should have said,
Speaker 1: oh it was really stinky, or oh I was feeling
Speaker 1: a little ill myself. He didn't have any one thing
Speaker 1: to know about its hydrogen sulfide. Correct. One of the
Speaker 1: things that breaks it down super fast is sunlight. Well,
Speaker 1: so if they're all there, if the boys are there
Speaker 1: at nine, Chalice is there around the same time, but
Speaker 1: he's walking around. He was there at the same time, right,
Speaker 1: He was there at the same time as Bogol and
Speaker 1: handler right, But he's not on the river bank. Sure,
Speaker 1: he's not that far away though, Oh yeah, I guess
Speaker 1: that's true. If it's five in the morning, you walk
Speaker 1: the path, there's not sun Yeah, no, I can see
Speaker 1: where the sunshine issue. Okay, I see where the problem
Speaker 1: is with that. But he's also not on the river bank, right.
Speaker 1: But if it's in that high concentration down below, at
Speaker 1: the very least, he's going to say it was really strong, odor,
Speaker 1: I really didn't feel okay or something. If it was
Speaker 1: so strong that it could literally kill people not fifty
Speaker 1: ft down the bank, he's gonna feel some effects or
Speaker 1: atly smell something or mentioned something about that, you would think.
Speaker 1: But but he may not have mentioned it because people
Speaker 1: who lived in that areas I think Joe had talked
Speaker 1: about before, had been complaining about this for years. So
Speaker 1: it just may have been this part of the river stinks.
Speaker 1: Maybe well also talking about it, because it just everybody
Speaker 1: knows this river stinks. You never know too, because there's
Speaker 1: a medical condition nosing as man, which means that you
Speaker 1: can't smell, you can't detect odors, and it's actually more
Speaker 1: common than people realize. And so maybe that's just yeah,
Speaker 1: so that's and that's you know, entirely within But but now,
Speaker 1: I mean, there were other people, like it wasn't it
Speaker 1: the case that some of the reporters that went down
Speaker 1: and checked out the crime scene were reported are really
Speaker 1: disgusting odor? Yeah they did. Of course, that could have
Speaker 1: been all the feces too. I don't know, Yeah, that
Speaker 1: probably wasn't Probably probably didn't help matters. Huh, all the
Speaker 1: puk and feces. Yeah, well you you, Joe. I hesitate
Speaker 1: to give you the rains for this one, but you
Speaker 1: had one more theory. Oh no, no, no, I'm not
Speaker 1: gonna I'm not gonna bring it up. You guys can't
Speaker 1: handle the truth. Well, goodness, we don't have to hear
Speaker 1: it that. Yeah, but anyway, I guess really wouldn't know.
Speaker 1: If you can learn anything from this is that these
Speaker 1: guys should have gotten the motel. Yeah, that lie certainly
Speaker 1: would have been a lot too. Yeah, next time, get
Speaker 1: a freaking room. Okay, yeah, yeah, that's the moral of
Speaker 1: the story. Well, before we wrap this up, Joe, you
Speaker 1: it sounds like you're mostly behind the hydrogen sulfide theory
Speaker 1: for the most part. That's that's you that's your number
Speaker 1: one candidate. Yeah. I mean, when you set aside all
Speaker 1: the all the lurid, ludicrous murder theories, I don't see
Speaker 1: anybody that had a strong motive to kill these people.
Speaker 1: And the idea of making up a really exotic aerosol
Speaker 1: that can kill them and not leave any any anything
Speaker 1: in their tissues and stuff like that, Well, how many
Speaker 1: people have that capability? Yeah, and so this is the
Speaker 1: only one that really, you know, actually makes any sense
Speaker 1: at all, even though I still have a problem with it.
Speaker 1: Like I said, more people should have been dying along
Speaker 1: that river. Yeah, Yeah, that's what I don't get. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think I leaned slightly towards poisoning of some kind,
Speaker 1: just because I do think that there's a strong anecdotal
Speaker 1: evidence at least for them being sick upon exit of
Speaker 1: the car. I think that seems to me. I don't know.
Speaker 1: Maybe they parked next to Scheila's, realized that he was there,
Speaker 1: so they parked the car. They parked it across the
Speaker 1: street from him. So they were going out, They were
Speaker 1: about to go to town on each other, and then
Speaker 1: oh crap, I feel sick, better run out and there
Speaker 1: I don't know again, though there are a lot of
Speaker 1: unanswered questions. Stuff actually not just occurs to me that
Speaker 1: you know, what, if somebody gave them a poison, but
Speaker 1: not really not something intended to kill them, but something
Speaker 1: which actually had a delatarious effect on their respiratory system,
Speaker 1: something which actually, you know, in one of the side
Speaker 1: effects of maybe that somebody gave him a laxative because
Speaker 1: just for fun, you know, and but maybe this particular
Speaker 1: drug also a side effect of being bad for your
Speaker 1: respiratory system. But of course it's not, you know, not
Speaker 1: typically in the doses you give it, it's not going
Speaker 1: to affect you that adversely. One of the things that
Speaker 1: Ruth Nash got investigated for was she also, if I
Speaker 1: remember correct, she was into the dosh hound scene as well.
Speaker 1: She loved oxins and she had de worming medication for
Speaker 1: the dogs that have been prescribed by her vet, which
Speaker 1: if you've ever accidentally gotten anything like that, it has
Speaker 1: the effect of a laxative on the human system. And
Speaker 1: so that happens. These things happen, and they checked her out,
Speaker 1: they checked all their pills, they checked the bodies for that.
Speaker 1: So it could have been some kind of derivative like that.
Speaker 1: I'm not, but I know that that was something that
Speaker 1: got looked into. I personally, the only one that works
Speaker 1: is the sulfide, the hydrogen sulfide. But my my issue
Speaker 1: with it is, as Joe said, why did more people
Speaker 1: die and over the years in places that are notorious
Speaker 1: for actually having these eruption is of hydrogen sulfide, there's
Speaker 1: only been a handful of deaths. It doesn't happen too often.
Speaker 1: It doesn't happen too often. And I this is the
Speaker 1: only one that was a double murder from this. If
Speaker 1: it was this two deaths at the same time, I
Speaker 1: have an issue with. I don't have a better theory.
Speaker 1: None of them seem to stand up. This is the
Speaker 1: only one that seems to have some evidence behind it.
Speaker 1: But it's just so lucky. The odds of it happening
Speaker 1: at that time, let's be fair, are so high. Yeah,
Speaker 1: But I also have the problems with the who who
Speaker 1: covered their bodies, and because like, two hours is a
Speaker 1: long time for her to have outlived him. It's one
Speaker 1: thing if it were forty five minutes and half an hour,
Speaker 1: even an hour, fine, But for them to be breathing
Speaker 1: the same toxins in the same quantities. But for her
Speaker 1: last two whole hours longer than in him. She was
Speaker 1: five ft away. She may have been just high enough. Yeah,
Speaker 1: she was unconscious. I don't, but she was in a depression,
Speaker 1: and which is probably would and if I could be wrong,
Speaker 1: but I think the drawings looked like she was actually
Speaker 1: closer to the I mean, it's it's true the pocket
Speaker 1: could have been more localized to where he was. That's fine,
Speaker 1: but it does seem weird. Yeah, I don't know where
Speaker 1: I stand. I don't. I can't pull any of these
Speaker 1: is my prime I love this theory. Yeah, I'm saying
Speaker 1: it was the professor in the library with a lead
Speaker 1: pipe again. Yeah, okay, okay, you can cut that. You
Speaker 1: can get that one at if. If you have a
Speaker 1: theory about this that you would like to share with us,
Speaker 1: you are more than welcome to do that. You can
Speaker 1: go to our website, which is Thinking Sideways podcast dot com.
Speaker 1: You can leave a comment on the site. Of course,
Speaker 1: you'll find some of our research there and the audio
Speaker 1: for this episode or any of the episodes that we've
Speaker 1: put out. Most folks are listening to us through some
Speaker 1: streaming app, whether it be Stitcher or a web app
Speaker 1: or a mobile app we're on. Most of those were,
Speaker 1: of course on iTunes, so if you're on iTunes, please
Speaker 1: do take the time leave us a comment and a rating.
Speaker 1: We are on Facebook. We have the group and the
Speaker 1: Facebook page and both. The group is most has been
Speaker 1: insanely busy lately and it's been fantastic all the stuff
Speaker 1: that's going on. So that's really really fun. So if
Speaker 1: you want to get in on that, like the page,
Speaker 1: joined the group, everybody seems to be enjoying that. Of course,
Speaker 1: we're on Twitter. It is Thinking Sideways to drop the
Speaker 1: g on Thinking, you can find us there. We do tweet,
Speaker 1: we have we have conversations with folks on there as well. Yeah,
Speaker 1: or well it's a hundred and some odd characters. It's
Speaker 1: not a big conversation, but uh, and let's see what else.
Speaker 1: Of course, we've got our email address if you do
Speaker 1: want to tell us something, you've got thoughts on this
Speaker 1: story or suggestions for other ones. Eddie and all emails
Speaker 1: are happily received at Thinking Sideways podcast at gmail dot com.
Speaker 1: Without saying that having been said, it just Devin looks
Speaker 1: at me every time do that we're going to roll
Speaker 1: this one up. Put it in the can, slap a
Speaker 1: bow on it, and call it done. Yes. Yeah, we've
Speaker 1: been working on this one for a while and I
Speaker 1: still don't know what I'm doing with it. I'll stay
Speaker 1: in hell away from that river. Now. They took the
Speaker 1: weird out, I think, but it up. Hopefully we're gonna
Speaker 1: go ahead and well I'm going to call it a night.
Speaker 1: I don't know about YouTube, so I will talk to forever.
Speaker 1: But yeah, no, I guess I'll go to everybody. Bye, guys,