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Speaker 1: Hey guys, exciting news. I'm really really stoked about this.

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Speaker 1: On March seventh, at noon Pacific Standard time, Team Sideways

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Speaker 1: is going to host an a m A on the

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Speaker 1: Unresolved Mysteries subreddit on Reddit. Pretty exciting. Hell yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: So the mods will post an announcement a week prior,

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Speaker 1: so if you can't join us at that time, at

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Speaker 1: that date, you can post your questions there. Um, please

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Speaker 1: don't email us questions will lose them and forget them.

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Speaker 1: Let's try and contain this just to Reddit. But we're

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Speaker 1: super excited and uh yeah, so if you can join us. Sorry,

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Speaker 1: just in case somebody you know, five years from now,

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Speaker 1: I was listening to this episode, not two thousand seventeen.

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Speaker 1: This is not true yourself two thousand seventeen. Sorry, Thinking Sideways.

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Speaker 1: I don't understand. You never know stories of things we

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Speaker 1: don't know the answer too. Well. Hey, and welcome again

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Speaker 1: to another episode of Thinking Sideways the podcast. The podcast.

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Speaker 1: I'm Steve as always, joined by Devin Joe, and once

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Speaker 1: again we get to tackle a mystery. It's a big

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Speaker 1: on this one, it is, and once again it's we

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Speaker 1: do this every now and again it's time for us

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Speaker 1: to take on a story that's big enough that we've

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Speaker 1: got to take it on as a team. Yeah, so

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Speaker 1: this is one of our big shows, So be prepared.

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Speaker 1: This one's going to go on for a while because

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Speaker 1: there's a lot, a lot of details and intrigue and

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Speaker 1: just kind of unusual things are unexpected things, despite what

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Speaker 1: the Wikipedia page will tell you about this mystery. And yeah,

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Speaker 1: somebody vandalized Wikipedia. Actually no, I figured out what the

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Speaker 1: problem was. It was I didn't know how to use Wikipedia. Okay,

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Speaker 1: And one quick note to our listeners before we get

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Speaker 1: into the mystery. This story does acknowledge the existence of

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Speaker 1: sex and some per marital decisions that revolve around that.

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Speaker 1: So if the kids are in the room and you're

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Speaker 1: listening and you're not quite sure you want them to

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Speaker 1: to hear some of this, you might want to pause

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Speaker 1: this one and listen to it later on your own.

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Speaker 1: The story that we are going to tackle is going

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Speaker 1: to be the unsolved deaths of Dr Gilbert Bogel and

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Speaker 1: Mrs Margaret Chandler. And there are two people who died

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Speaker 1: for unknown reasons in Australia sometime in the early hours

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Speaker 1: of New Year's Day, well at five am and seven am, respectively.

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Speaker 1: But okay, well, well yeah, thanks for killing the mystery

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Speaker 1: all right. Before we begin, I do have to send

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Speaker 1: out a huge thank you to Elena, who sent this

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Speaker 1: story to us and then pointed us to a ton

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Speaker 1: of resources kind of made this one happen for us

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Speaker 1: to be quite yeah, it was again, thank you. Let's

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Speaker 1: begin with the story. On New Year's Day three, somewhere

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Speaker 1: around nine am, two teenage boys were walking along a

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Speaker 1: path that runs along the Lane Cove River in Sydney, Australia.

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Speaker 1: They came upon a man keeps laying off of the

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Speaker 1: main path, and from the accounts that I've seen, they

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Speaker 1: when they first saw him, they figured he was drunk. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's everything. That's the one that I've heard the most.

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Speaker 1: This This dude was just laying there. It's New Year's morning,

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Speaker 1: he's drunk. But it wasn't until they came back down

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Speaker 1: that path and saw him still there that they noticed

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Speaker 1: that his face had changed color and they realized that

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Speaker 1: he was probably dead and they ran for help. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I heard that. They said. They walked past him, and

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Speaker 1: then a couple hours later they came back and he

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Speaker 1: literally had not moved at all and they thought, huh

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Speaker 1: this it's kind of weird though, I mean, in that

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Speaker 1: two hours, nobody else walked by him. I mean it's

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Speaker 1: New Year's morning. Joe hungover exact or asleep. I'm suspecting

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Speaker 1: that's what killed these two. Hangover. The hangover. I've had

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Speaker 1: some killer hangovers, but not that bad. The man was

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Speaker 1: thirty eight year old doctor Vogel, and he was laying

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Speaker 1: face down, half undressed. Someone had he wasn't wearing his pants.

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Speaker 1: Someone had taken his pants and laid them across his

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Speaker 1: legs and his backside, so that from a given distance

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Speaker 1: it looked like he was wearing pants. Yeah, and his

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Speaker 1: underwear wasn't there, right, This is a fun fact of that.

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Speaker 1: I discovered his underwear was not there, but a pair

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Speaker 1: of ladies underwear was very close by to him, like

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Speaker 1: Selt panties, very close by. Yes, yeah, so ladies panties.

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Speaker 1: No further explained, Yes, give me just a moment. The tease.

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Speaker 1: There was also, just so everybody knows, a square of

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Speaker 1: carpet laid on his back, which was later discovered to

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Speaker 1: have been something that was in his cart. When the

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Speaker 1: police arrived, as they will do when someone finds a

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Speaker 1: dead body. They searched the area and they found a

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Speaker 1: second body, which was twenty eight year old Margaret Chandler

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Speaker 1: forty ft away, and she had a pair of men's

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Speaker 1: briefs in between her legs. That's true, she did. She did.

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Speaker 1: She as Devin was kind of getting too, had some

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Speaker 1: strange clothes. She was also partially undressed, but she was

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Speaker 1: in a bit of a depression and had flattened beer

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Speaker 1: boxes laid over her, which is an unusual place to be,

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Speaker 1: especially when you're dead. But it's it's unclear to this

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Speaker 1: day who covered the bodies. Was it one person covered

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Speaker 1: the other, who did some other person? We don't know

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Speaker 1: that well. I think we might get into some of

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Speaker 1: that later on, but just to say, on the outset,

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Speaker 1: we don't know how they got covered up. There were

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Speaker 1: no obvious signs of damage to the body, and by

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Speaker 1: that I mean no obvious trauma. They hadn't been, you know,

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Speaker 1: sholing in pools of blood exactly. There was um some evidence,

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Speaker 1: what's the best way to say this, There was evidence

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Speaker 1: that they had been violently ill before they died. There

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Speaker 1: was vomit and feces both around the bodies and in

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Speaker 1: the area around them. So, yeah, I read that. It's interesting.

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Speaker 1: Actually I read that there was a small amount of

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Speaker 1: vomit found near Dr Bogel, like twelve ft away or no,

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Speaker 1: twelve inches I'm sorry, twelve inches, not twelve ft that's

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Speaker 1: really far away. That's projectile. Yeah, so that that's interesting

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Speaker 1: that they are also differing accounts of that. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: there's there's some issues with this story because it's been

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Speaker 1: it's been rehashed a lot, and will talk about some

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Speaker 1: of that. But there was feces everywhere. Yeah, they were

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Speaker 1: obvious given and I mean typically when you die, people

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Speaker 1: usually let go. Yeah, but it was more than that.

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Speaker 1: They were actually running around and carpet in the area. Actually,

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Speaker 1: I don't think it was next to their bodies at all.

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Speaker 1: There was some down by the river bank and there

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Speaker 1: was some a bit of a trail, let's put it

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Speaker 1: that way. They marked where they had been. Regardless, it's

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Speaker 1: not a nice way to go. But this this led

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Speaker 1: the police immediately to suspect that in some way they

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Speaker 1: had been poisoned, but they had no idea how or

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Speaker 1: what with the official cause of death for both of

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Speaker 1: these individuals was listed as acute circulatory failure. But how

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Speaker 1: or why was never specified. These two particular people who

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Speaker 1: are on a river bank on New Year's Eve New

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Speaker 1: Year's Morning together various states of undress, various states of undress,

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Speaker 1: were married to different people. She was married to a

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Speaker 1: man by the name of Jeffrey Chandler. He his wife.

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Speaker 1: Dr Bogel's wife was named Vivian Bogel. And I hope

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Speaker 1: I'm saying, I believe it's Bogel. Is how you pronounced it.

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Speaker 1: We're going to say it the whole. I hope it's

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Speaker 1: not wrong, because otherwise we're gonna look silly. Yeah. But

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Speaker 1: but regardless, it's it's pretty obvious that they were there

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Speaker 1: for a midnight encounter of as another way to put it,

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Speaker 1: what's that look it up on the internet, Joe. Okay,

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Speaker 1: let's give a little bit of backstory again. This is

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Speaker 1: just kind of the beginning telling of it, and then

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Speaker 1: we'll go into some details. Both of these individuals Dr.

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Speaker 1: Bogel Miss Chandler had attended a New Year's Eve party

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Speaker 1: on the night of their deaths, which was hosted by

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Speaker 1: another couple by the name of Ken and Ruth Nash.

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Speaker 1: Dr Bogel attended the party on his own. His wife

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Speaker 1: stayed home to take care of their three chill written

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Speaker 1: Mrs Chandler attended the party with her husband, Jeffrey, though

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Speaker 1: he had left the party around eleven thirty that night.

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Speaker 1: One odd fact about the party, and I think this

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Speaker 1: is the nashest way of trying to mix things up

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Speaker 1: and make it interesting. They were super interesting people, those

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Speaker 1: they were. But you'll see this when you come across

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Speaker 1: this case, especially if you do Google images or image

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Speaker 1: searches in general, is that what they told their guess

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Speaker 1: was that they wanted them to bring a piece of

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Speaker 1: art that they had created themselves to the party to

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Speaker 1: display for everybody to talk about. Dr Bogel brought drawing,

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Speaker 1: which it's it's really kind of strange and honestly, it's weird.

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Speaker 1: Let's just call it weird. It's a disembodied hand in

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Speaker 1: one corner and a disembodied foot in the other corner,

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Speaker 1: with a woman's face that points in two directions. If

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Speaker 1: you ever seen some of those profile images where it

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Speaker 1: looks like it's a face looking at you and and

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Speaker 1: to the side, that's what it is. It's it's kind

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Speaker 1: of got a modernist feel to it, and it made

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Speaker 1: me think of the art that you'll see. There's a

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Speaker 1: Russian Russian artist by the name of Alexander roj Tinko.

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Speaker 1: Is it Rodchenko? I really feel bad for all of

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Speaker 1: the art classes I've taken. I suddenly can't remember how

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Speaker 1: to pronounce this guy's name. Regardless, it looks like work

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Speaker 1: from both of those. So it's it's it's unusual. I

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Speaker 1: don't know a better way to describe it. Well, you

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Speaker 1: can describe it by the fact that everybody said that

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Speaker 1: it was created while he was high on LSD. I mean,

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Speaker 1: that's true, right, people people have speculated that that's how

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Speaker 1: he made it, and the LSD is relevant to what

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Speaker 1: we're talking about, which is the party. Because this story

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Speaker 1: gets covered a lot by the media, the newspaper papers

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Speaker 1: specifically at the time, it was a huge source of headlines,

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Speaker 1: and they were not afraid to insert and exaggerate and

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Speaker 1: come up with theories and just proffer them to postulate

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Speaker 1: that they were the actual thing. One of the things

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Speaker 1: that the news said, or these papers said, I should say,

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Speaker 1: is that the party was some kind of LSD fueled orgy. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's it's a bit absurd and from everything that I've read,

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Speaker 1: and actually what was going on. Yeah, it was kind

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Speaker 1: of a lame party really from what I've heard. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: well yeah, next I'm telling to bring booze paintings. Well,

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Speaker 1: I I remember there was something about Mr Nash saying

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Speaker 1: that he didn't give anybody more than two drinks. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: he was dispensing quote unquote that's the term they used,

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Speaker 1: is he was dispensing the drinks and he would only

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Speaker 1: give people, according to at least one account that I read,

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Speaker 1: that he would only give people, uh two drinks maximum.

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Speaker 1: So a very sober affair. But well, let's get back

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Speaker 1: to our our case in point here, which is these

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Speaker 1: folks at some point in the nine Chandler not the Nashes,

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Speaker 1: thank you. Uh, they were observed outside in the backyard

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Speaker 1: together described in and you'll you'll see this in two

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Speaker 1: different ways, either in a close conversation or kissing. Not

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Speaker 1: really sure. Actually, uh you know they that's not the

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Speaker 1: first night they met. It's very true. They Dr Bogel

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Speaker 1: and Mrs Chandler had met at a holiday Christmas barbecue.

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Speaker 1: It's Australia. Remember it's Australia, so it's summer during Christmas,

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Speaker 1: so they were having a Christmas kind of Hawaiian barbecue,

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Speaker 1: another one of the co workers of Mr Chandler and

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Speaker 1: Dr Bogel. And in fact, it was reported by at

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Speaker 1: least one person who will talk about later, that the

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Speaker 1: couple Dr Bogel and Mrs Chandler had been seen canoodling

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Speaker 1: perhaps that night, even intimate conversation. Well, and I don't

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Speaker 1: I think it was actually accusation, was in fact that

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Speaker 1: they had been making out or maybe like had a

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Speaker 1: low romp in the bushes on that night, even the

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Speaker 1: first night that they met. So that's worth mentioning. Is

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Speaker 1: it is? It is back to the New Year's Eve party.

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Speaker 1: The witness accounts say that the pair left the party

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Speaker 1: together between two to three am, and the accounts very

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Speaker 1: a little bit on the time, which isn't surprising. It's

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Speaker 1: the middle of the night. Uh. It's important to point

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Speaker 1: out that Jeffrey Chandler, if you remember earlier I had

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Speaker 1: said he had left the party, he came back and

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Speaker 1: he because he had gone to a different party to

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Speaker 1: have drinks where you could get more than two. But

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Speaker 1: he did come back to the party and had a

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Speaker 1: conversation with his wife, and when he found out that

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Speaker 1: Margaret wanted to not get a ride home from him,

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Speaker 1: but from Dr Bogel. It wasn't really all that worried

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Speaker 1: about it. He didn't care. The account that I heard

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Speaker 1: was that while Mr Chandler was gone, Dr Bogel I

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Speaker 1: keep wanting her for them as their first in their

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Speaker 1: first names, they called Dr Bogel Gibby, right, and her

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Speaker 1: name was Margaret. So given GiB had offered to give

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Speaker 1: Margaret a ride home because she didn't really know where

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Speaker 1: her husband had gone off to. And apparently when Mr

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Speaker 1: Chandler Jeffrey came back, he said, oh, are you ready

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Speaker 1: to go, Margaret? And she made no move to go,

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Speaker 1: and she was sitting right next to gibb and so

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Speaker 1: Jeffrey looked at GiB and said, so will you take

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Speaker 1: Margaret home? And GiB just kind of looked at him

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Speaker 1: and squinted his eyes for a second and then said right.

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Speaker 1: And then Jeffrey laughed like that That was how that happened.

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Speaker 1: Was just so weird. And we're going to get into

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Speaker 1: some of the stuff about what, you know, the background

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Speaker 1: on these folks people. Yeah, but the point is he

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Speaker 1: left the party and he went about his way. He

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Speaker 1: wasn't concerned that was going to give Margaret right home. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: more than that. This case itself was the biggest case

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Speaker 1: to date for Sydney, and the police immediately went to

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Speaker 1: work on it. They were reviewing all the evidence. They

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Speaker 1: were trying to hunt down any bit of any lead,

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Speaker 1: any bit of information that might possibly tell them what

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Speaker 1: was going on. A lot of man hours were spent

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Speaker 1: on this case. Like we talked about before, it's we

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Speaker 1: the newspapers. They went crazy. They polluted this story badly.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if either of you did this. I

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Speaker 1: read some of the old newspapers. Can find them on online. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I have a favorite website about this case and it

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Speaker 1: references at every point what the media was saying, which

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Speaker 1: is very helpful and very bad because they just misconstrue

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Speaker 1: a lot of things. I mean, it really hasn't changed either.

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Speaker 1: They're just about as bad today. And we've had this

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Speaker 1: conversation before. But but let's let's go ahead, and first off,

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Speaker 1: let's talk about our three main players in this story. Yeah, okay,

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Speaker 1: my turn. I'm going to talk about Dr bog Dr bogelh.

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Speaker 1: So he's a major player in the mystery, though it

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Speaker 1: doesn't actually say very much he was. His full name

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Speaker 1: was Gilbert Stanley Bogle. He was born in New Zealand January.

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Speaker 1: He studied physics in Britain under a Rhodes scholarship. He

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Speaker 1: met and married Actually I don't know if he met

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Speaker 1: her in nineteen fifty, but he married Vivian in nineteen fifty.

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Speaker 1: They had three children and also a fourth after his death,

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Speaker 1: and by accounts he was a good family man, except

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Speaker 1: for his philandering, which apparently he did a lot of. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so I guess you can't really say give percent marks

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Speaker 1: on that one. But Frank, yeah, but freends said that

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Speaker 1: he was interesting, wickedly smart, uh fun um well, rounded

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Speaker 1: into a whole lot of different activities and it's kind

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Speaker 1: of an awesome guy. Yeah, they thought that. People thought

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Speaker 1: it was pretty cool. So he moved back to New

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Speaker 1: Zealand in nineteen fifty two with his family and got

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Speaker 1: a university job teaching and researching in physics, which was

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Speaker 1: his field. And then in nineteen fifty six he took

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Speaker 1: a job in Australia with the Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial

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Speaker 1: Search Organization, which I'm going to call CIERO from now on,

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Speaker 1: the c s i r O, because we're going to

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Speaker 1: talk about that a number of times. Yeah, it's much

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Speaker 1: easier to do. Yeah. CICERO is Australia's National science agency

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Speaker 1: and so they actually cover a lot of different fields

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Speaker 1: of science. He got a three year appointment which began

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Speaker 1: September fifty six. He started working in the cryogenics group.

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Speaker 1: By by about a year later, he had been given

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Speaker 1: an indefinite appointment because apparently his his chief of his

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Speaker 1: division liked him so much and found him noteworthy. Was

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Speaker 1: a quote. He was noteworthy for his mental powers, his

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Speaker 1: breath of breadth of knowledge, has capacity for original ideas,

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Speaker 1: his driving enthusiasms, range of experimental techniques, and his outstanding

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Speaker 1: ability as a lecturer. Now, so this guy really liked Bogel, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: he did. His name was Briggs, and he encouraged Bogel

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Speaker 1: to resume his research on paramagnetic residence, which I'm not

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Speaker 1: really sure that that is, and I was too lazy

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Speaker 1: to look it up. It so I'm it's using radio

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Speaker 1: waves and magnets as weapons. Is that the mazer? Maybe? Well,

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Speaker 1: there there's talk about one point. I think maybe that's

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Speaker 1: how you generate the masers are like lasers but with microwaves. Yeah,

301
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Speaker 1: coherent The lasers, as you know, is coherent light, right

302
00:20:21,880 --> 00:20:23,680
Speaker 1: I do. Now, yeah, all a little folks, all a

303
00:20:23,680 --> 00:20:26,359
Speaker 1: little photons are moving in the same direction, whereas the

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00:20:26,440 --> 00:20:28,120
Speaker 1: life from the light bulb up there in the ceiling

305
00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:32,600
Speaker 1: they're just like you know, stuck on scattering everywhere. The

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00:20:32,720 --> 00:20:35,160
Speaker 1: lasers they have their coherent light and then they're all

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Speaker 1: move in the same direction. So yeah, it's I guess

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Speaker 1: the point of the whole thing is that Dr Bogel

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Speaker 1: was working on what could be considered or was encouraged

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Speaker 1: to work on what could be considered for warfare and

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Speaker 1: death rays and weird mad scientists stuff that's freaking cool

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Speaker 1: grand side right, you know. Actually, and I checked and

313
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Speaker 1: in an alternate time, and he actually didn't die, and

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Speaker 1: he invented the warp drive in ninety seven, and then yeah,

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Speaker 1: you're already wanted to get off. Yeah, Briggs, his chief

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Speaker 1: recommended him for accelerated advancement. He drew attention to the

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Speaker 1: fact that he'd done all this work on the recent

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Speaker 1: development of the maser, which is like a lazer, like

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Speaker 1: I said, uh, and his uh, his theoretic practical contribution

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Speaker 1: to this development of this and apparently was developed for

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Speaker 1: use in radio astronomy was apparently pretty large. Boo was

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Speaker 1: a smart guy. Actually, I gotta say it's too bad

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Speaker 1: he died, you know, because it was a crazy smart guy.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, it was a really smart guy. Um so

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Speaker 1: his chief in nineteen sixty two called him quote the

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Speaker 1: most brilliant member of the staff. For a while. He

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Speaker 1: must have been off the chart smart. Vogo was offered

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Speaker 1: a two year appointment in quantum electronics at Bell Laboratories

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Speaker 1: in the US UH and he really wanted to take

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Speaker 1: the job. Cicero granted will leave the absence to take

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Speaker 1: the job, and apparently he was. People said he was

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Speaker 1: very excited about going to work in America at Bell Labs.

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Speaker 1: In fact, that was one of the reasons that the

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Speaker 1: Nash has had thrown that party, if I remember correctly,

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Speaker 1: was that or the barbecue party? One of them was

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00:22:13,840 --> 00:22:19,040
Speaker 1: part holiday party, part going away party for Yeah, you're right,

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Speaker 1: I can't remember. He was to leave within I think

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Speaker 1: the month. I think maybe even within a couple of weeks,

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00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:27,080
Speaker 1: so it was not far it was not far away. Yeah,

340
00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:29,359
Speaker 1: but yeah, I just really kind of sad this guy

341
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Speaker 1: died because yeah, who knows what he would have accomplished. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so you want to talk about miss Chandler Margaret for

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Speaker 1: a minute. Yeah, let's talking about Wait a minute, got

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Speaker 1: to talk about his hobbies and his turn on. No,

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Speaker 1: this isn't a dating site, Mrs Chandler, Margaret Chandler. She

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Speaker 1: was twenty years old at the time of her death,

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Speaker 1: and there's not a whole lot out there on Mrs Chandler.

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Speaker 1: I'll be honest with you. I don't get the impression

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Speaker 1: that she was a particularly interesting human being. I just

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Speaker 1: don't have that impression. I think guys were interested in her. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think she was kind of She didn't have a

352
00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:11,359
Speaker 1: whole lot of external pursuits. But I think that you

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Speaker 1: also need to keep in mind is that she had

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Speaker 1: two small kids at the time. Yeah, she did. She

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Speaker 1: She and Mr Chandler had two small children. They were

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Speaker 1: aged two and eighteen months, and they had left them

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Speaker 1: with them with her with her mother and father in

358
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Speaker 1: law that night. She and her husband shared a love

359
00:23:32,359 --> 00:23:35,639
Speaker 1: of vintage cars and docks and dogs. Like how boring.

360
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Speaker 1: Come on. The weird thing is okay, I don't mean

361
00:23:40,119 --> 00:23:42,800
Speaker 1: interrupt you here, but the weird thing about that is

362
00:23:43,200 --> 00:23:48,080
Speaker 1: she liked vintage cars and docks. Sin's. Maybe that's because

363
00:23:48,080 --> 00:23:51,000
Speaker 1: her husband really liked both of those things, and so

364
00:23:51,040 --> 00:23:53,240
Speaker 1: she went along with it. So there's all these pictures

365
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Speaker 1: of her in vintage cars because he's like, honey, get

366
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Speaker 1: in there, let me take your picture, like you dog

367
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Speaker 1: take your picture. Yeah, it seemed that she was the

368
00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:03,280
Speaker 1: kind of person that didn't have a whole lot of

369
00:24:03,359 --> 00:24:06,719
Speaker 1: going on for herself. She seemed to have been at

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00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:11,119
Speaker 1: least moderately intelligent. I think she probably was likely quite intelligent.

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Speaker 1: She just kind of seemed boring, like she just kind

372
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Speaker 1: of adopted everybody else's stuff. She seemed to be pretty reserved. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: They talked about how Mr Chandler was kind of tall

374
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Speaker 1: and outgoing, and he had this huge red beard and

375
00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:29,760
Speaker 1: stood out in a room, and she, by contrast, was

376
00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:33,600
Speaker 1: this kind of meek creature just at his side. It

377
00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:36,000
Speaker 1: seemed that they were on the same kind of page

378
00:24:36,040 --> 00:24:38,520
Speaker 1: about the way that their marriage should go. And that

379
00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:42,120
Speaker 1: is to say that monogamy seemed to not have been

380
00:24:42,280 --> 00:24:46,680
Speaker 1: for either of them. I don't know that she was

381
00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:50,360
Speaker 1: as okay with that as her husband, but she ended

382
00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:53,280
Speaker 1: up going along with She did have more than just

383
00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:56,360
Speaker 1: give as a lover. She had had lovers previous to that,

384
00:24:57,080 --> 00:25:00,560
Speaker 1: so I don't know what that necessarily means, but it

385
00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:02,800
Speaker 1: does implicate to me that she was at least kind

386
00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:06,360
Speaker 1: of okay with it, given it a shot. And apparently

387
00:25:06,440 --> 00:25:10,560
Speaker 1: Jeffrey had been pretty absent from his wife's life for

388
00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:13,359
Speaker 1: most of nineteen sixty two. He chose to spend his

389
00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:16,960
Speaker 1: time kind of more with friends instead of his wife

390
00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:20,720
Speaker 1: and two young sons. Also had a girlfriend named Pam.

391
00:25:22,359 --> 00:25:25,520
Speaker 1: Never have a girlfriend name when you're married. That just

392
00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:29,159
Speaker 1: never goes well. Yeah, Apparently after that holiday barbecue that

393
00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:32,800
Speaker 1: we were talking about earlier, Margaret said to her husband

394
00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:35,800
Speaker 1: that she'd like to sleep with Dr Bogel, and Jeffrey

395
00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:38,960
Speaker 1: later recounted she had quote put it in the same

396
00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:41,080
Speaker 1: sort of way that one might describe a Rolls Royce

397
00:25:41,119 --> 00:25:45,600
Speaker 1: car has like a fleeting interest of having sex with

398
00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:48,800
Speaker 1: this man. Essentially, Yeah, I think that was that was

399
00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:51,480
Speaker 1: sort of the The sense that I got was that

400
00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:54,680
Speaker 1: Mr Chandler said, well, if you'd like to sleep with Gibb,

401
00:25:54,720 --> 00:25:58,439
Speaker 1: then you should. I'm for it, and that, you know,

402
00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:01,439
Speaker 1: you get the failure that Dr Handler had fallen out

403
00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:03,920
Speaker 1: of love with his wife. Mr Chandler, he was not

404
00:26:04,040 --> 00:26:07,960
Speaker 1: a doctor. Okay, was a doctor. Chandler was not. I

405
00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:09,960
Speaker 1: do have the sense he was kind of an interesting

406
00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:12,960
Speaker 1: guy too. I don't know necessarily what attracted him to

407
00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:15,399
Speaker 1: Mrs Chandler. I don't know if it was just that

408
00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:17,520
Speaker 1: it was convenient. Maybe he knocked her up and they

409
00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:21,199
Speaker 1: got married. I don't know. I can't remember what the

410
00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:28,680
Speaker 1: circumstances were. It was just hell, let's let's talk about Jeffrey. Sure, yeah, oh,

411
00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:32,120
Speaker 1: just had the fun well by note, you know how

412
00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:37,120
Speaker 1: everybody knows like twenty Jessica's. Uh, there were five Margaret's

413
00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:39,439
Speaker 1: at the New Year's party that they attended at the

414
00:26:39,640 --> 00:26:43,040
Speaker 1: at Kennon Ruth Nash's house. There were five different Margarets.

415
00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:44,760
Speaker 1: And I bet there are only like seven people there

416
00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:47,439
Speaker 1: because they only served two drinks. Yeah, yeah, they were

417
00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:53,960
Speaker 1: like twenty people there, Margaret. Yeah, Well, let's uh, let's

418
00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:59,520
Speaker 1: talk about Jeffrey Chandler. Jeffrey Chandler also worked at the

419
00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:02,240
Speaker 1: C S I R O or Cicero is Joe is

420
00:27:02,320 --> 00:27:05,320
Speaker 1: putting it, which I'm going to keep using. But he

421
00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:10,120
Speaker 1: worked there as a research scientist, and he actually did

422
00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:14,880
Speaker 1: work in the same building as Dr Bogel. The two

423
00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:20,199
Speaker 1: were they were work compatriots. They had worked together, not

424
00:27:20,280 --> 00:27:22,359
Speaker 1: only just seen each other in the building before, but

425
00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:27,440
Speaker 1: evidently they had worked together on at least one experiment.

426
00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:30,280
Speaker 1: I believe it's only one experiment, but never really hung

427
00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:34,960
Speaker 1: out in the same social circles, because jeff he Jeffrey,

428
00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:38,960
Speaker 1: he hung out in a very specific sect. He did.

429
00:27:39,040 --> 00:27:44,520
Speaker 1: He did. But let's let's keep going here. Chandler, Jeffrey

430
00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:48,600
Speaker 1: Chandler was of course, as we said earlier, and immediate suspect,

431
00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:51,880
Speaker 1: and of course the press and the police went after

432
00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:56,680
Speaker 1: him really hard. And actually, in cases like this, let's

433
00:27:56,680 --> 00:28:00,560
Speaker 1: see had probably the husband is always is the first

434
00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:02,280
Speaker 1: one that's going to get attacked. I mean, this is

435
00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:06,760
Speaker 1: standard protocol. I'm not knocking anyone for this, well, I'm not.

436
00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:14,480
Speaker 1: I would dr press people that aside. They went after

437
00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:20,200
Speaker 1: his lifestyles, his beliefs, and in the end, his desire

438
00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:24,120
Speaker 1: to avoid the press didn't help him out at all.

439
00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:27,439
Speaker 1: These are some of the things that don't help him.

440
00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:32,600
Speaker 1: Jeffrey was a member of the Communist Party, would got

441
00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:35,760
Speaker 1: him at a little bit of bad press. He also,

442
00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:38,880
Speaker 1: as it turned out, had been working for the A.

443
00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:44,000
Speaker 1: S I O, which is the Australian Security Intelligence Organization.

444
00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:49,040
Speaker 1: I never got a clear bead on this, but from

445
00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:54,080
Speaker 1: what I understand, what he was doing is the s

446
00:28:54,120 --> 00:28:58,880
Speaker 1: i OH was trying to get him to provide information

447
00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:02,280
Speaker 1: on the commun in his party. One of the things

448
00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:04,800
Speaker 1: he did, he's trying to host meetings at places and

449
00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:08,560
Speaker 1: try to bug the place for them. He bungled this badly.

450
00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:11,480
Speaker 1: So you try to do this was Is it possible

451
00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:14,400
Speaker 1: that Mr Chandler was not actually a sincere Communist and

452
00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:19,040
Speaker 1: then he just basically infiltered the infiltrated the organization. I

453
00:29:19,080 --> 00:29:21,720
Speaker 1: don't believe. So. I think that he agreed with things

454
00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:25,080
Speaker 1: that were in the party from what I understand, But

455
00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:28,840
Speaker 1: there's a bad thing about that. And the problem is

456
00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:30,800
Speaker 1: is that he went ahead and signed up with the

457
00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:36,600
Speaker 1: Communist Party. At that time, it was a bad thing.

458
00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:40,480
Speaker 1: And to be a government employee, you could not be

459
00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:46,600
Speaker 1: affiliated with with that party at counties if you're potentially

460
00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:49,400
Speaker 1: I'm not I'm not sure. I'm sure. At least some

461
00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:53,200
Speaker 1: of Cicero's projects were classified. Of course, yeah, and so yeah,

462
00:29:53,280 --> 00:29:56,080
Speaker 1: definitely there's a good reason for that, Yes there is,

463
00:29:56,120 --> 00:29:58,880
Speaker 1: But he was he while he might have been a member,

464
00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:03,320
Speaker 1: he wasn't a you know, book thumping card carrying scream

465
00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:06,200
Speaker 1: at the masses member. He just kind of liked their ideals,

466
00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:09,600
Speaker 1: I think. But the problem was is that the a

467
00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:14,400
Speaker 1: s I oh, they from what I've read, came at

468
00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:18,360
Speaker 1: him and said, listen, you worked for us, or we're

469
00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:21,360
Speaker 1: breaking the news and you're losing your job. And by

470
00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:24,360
Speaker 1: the way, once you get blackballed from this job, you're

471
00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:27,600
Speaker 1: never working in this country again. So of course he

472
00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:32,560
Speaker 1: went along with him. Good idea. Yeah. Oh, and I

473
00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:34,920
Speaker 1: briefly mentioned there in the list of things that people

474
00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:37,000
Speaker 1: went kind of crazy about for him, was one of

475
00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:39,320
Speaker 1: him was his lifestyle. Yeah, because it was kind of

476
00:30:39,360 --> 00:30:43,200
Speaker 1: a swinger. He totally was a swinger. He he believed

477
00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:47,400
Speaker 1: in sleeping with multiple women, and he did so, as

478
00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:51,640
Speaker 1: we've already talked about while he was married to Mrs Chandler. Yeah,

479
00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:54,680
Speaker 1: that's that fine line of swinging versus cheating. Right, it's

480
00:30:54,680 --> 00:30:58,840
Speaker 1: swinging if you're like, hey, babe, you should do this too, right,

481
00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:04,480
Speaker 1: and cheating line nobody knows as you you twist the

482
00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:09,000
Speaker 1: mustache and have the wink. She knew. He made no

483
00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:12,240
Speaker 1: bones about it. He was very open with her. And

484
00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:16,040
Speaker 1: I get the impression that for about the first year

485
00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:19,320
Speaker 1: two of their relationship, I think he was faithful and

486
00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:21,400
Speaker 1: then he began to stray again, but didn't make any

487
00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:23,600
Speaker 1: bones about it, just said, Hey, I'm interested in this

488
00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:26,000
Speaker 1: woman and I'm going to go sleep with her. And

489
00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:30,680
Speaker 1: she Yeah, she was a little passive. Yea, she was

490
00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:33,160
Speaker 1: a little passive. Then. I've always I've noticed that I've

491
00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:35,280
Speaker 1: known a few people that were in open relationships, and

492
00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:38,320
Speaker 1: I've always noticed that one partner was always much more

493
00:31:38,320 --> 00:31:40,400
Speaker 1: okay with it than the other. Yes, And in fairness,

494
00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:44,040
Speaker 1: that doesn't always happen always. There's that's certainly a level

495
00:31:44,040 --> 00:31:47,360
Speaker 1: of consent that some people have, but often often it

496
00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:50,880
Speaker 1: is that way. But like I said, he kept it

497
00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:55,080
Speaker 1: no secret. But the problem was is that that lifestyle

498
00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:59,040
Speaker 1: was highly frowned. Yeah, we're talking in the nineteen sixties. Yes,

499
00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:05,040
Speaker 1: so this I don't think people are into the swinger

500
00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:08,880
Speaker 1: thing these days. Well, I think the seventies and the

501
00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:11,360
Speaker 1: eighties were kind of the high point for swingers. But

502
00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:16,719
Speaker 1: late fifties, early sixties there's kind of the bohemian scene

503
00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:21,640
Speaker 1: going on, which Jeffrey Chandler was involved with. So there

504
00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:24,640
Speaker 1: was some uprising of it then, But as a general

505
00:32:24,680 --> 00:32:28,360
Speaker 1: societal norm. Yeah, let's talk about it. We can a

506
00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:32,040
Speaker 1: little bit to give a frame of reference here, Ruth

507
00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:37,760
Speaker 1: Nash was outraged the night of their party because neither

508
00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:41,480
Speaker 1: of the Chandlers had come by to say goodbye and

509
00:32:41,560 --> 00:32:45,160
Speaker 1: thank you. She was our She talked about that even

510
00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:47,240
Speaker 1: after she knew that there was a little bit impolite

511
00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:51,040
Speaker 1: that that um that Margaret was dead. You know, she knew.

512
00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:53,920
Speaker 1: She was outraged, and the fact that Jeffrey had shown

513
00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:56,200
Speaker 1: up in like a Hawaiian shirt. He had shown up

514
00:32:56,240 --> 00:32:58,640
Speaker 1: in casual clothes and he was supposed to be wearing

515
00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:01,440
Speaker 1: a suit, and she was outraged at too. And so's

516
00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:05,120
Speaker 1: that sort of society at least surrounding them a little

517
00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:07,440
Speaker 1: bit for the most part, to give it a little

518
00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:09,680
Speaker 1: bit of a frame of reference. I guess, Oh, no,

519
00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:14,160
Speaker 1: wonder we left the party. Yeah, no, this party was

520
00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:18,160
Speaker 1: not his speed at all. We talked about a little

521
00:33:18,160 --> 00:33:22,360
Speaker 1: bit earlier that he left. What he did is he

522
00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:28,640
Speaker 1: went to another party where the Nashes were too stuffy.

523
00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:32,080
Speaker 1: He went to another party where he met up with

524
00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:35,240
Speaker 1: Pam Logan, who was the woman that he had been

525
00:33:35,560 --> 00:33:40,640
Speaker 1: having a relationship with. I believe they also worked together

526
00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:45,280
Speaker 1: I'm not positive that they were co workers, but I

527
00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:49,120
Speaker 1: do know that they were lovers. They had left the

528
00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:53,440
Speaker 1: party that they were at together, gone back to her flat.

529
00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:59,480
Speaker 1: Then when they were done doing what When they were done,

530
00:34:00,600 --> 00:34:04,520
Speaker 1: he left and he went back to the Nash's party

531
00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:08,040
Speaker 1: to find his wife. He was gone from that party

532
00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:12,160
Speaker 1: for a good two to three hours when he finally

533
00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:15,399
Speaker 1: came back. And we had said this earlier. Is that

534
00:34:15,520 --> 00:34:17,840
Speaker 1: she said, no, I I want to I want to

535
00:34:17,920 --> 00:34:22,879
Speaker 1: leave with Dr Bogel. He wasn't worried, and he had been,

536
00:34:23,239 --> 00:34:26,760
Speaker 1: from his own accounts, encouraging her for quite some time

537
00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:30,239
Speaker 1: to take a lover. And of course Bogel wasn't the

538
00:34:30,239 --> 00:34:33,799
Speaker 1: first one, but he does there there are many accounts

539
00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:36,760
Speaker 1: from him, And just so people don't get the wrong

540
00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:40,600
Speaker 1: idea about Jeffrey Chandler, it's not as if he just

541
00:34:40,640 --> 00:34:45,480
Speaker 1: said oh okay and beat feet and left. He went outside.

542
00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:49,200
Speaker 1: He wasn't sure if she was really serious. He went out,

543
00:34:49,320 --> 00:34:52,839
Speaker 1: he got in the car, He sat there for the

544
00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:55,160
Speaker 1: amount of time that it took him to smoke the

545
00:34:55,200 --> 00:34:57,760
Speaker 1: half a cigarette he evidently had sitting in the ash

546
00:34:57,800 --> 00:35:01,920
Speaker 1: tray before he left. And he's actually said a number

547
00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:05,440
Speaker 1: of times said he regrets not getting out of the

548
00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:07,560
Speaker 1: car and walking back into the house and say no,

549
00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:10,040
Speaker 1: you should come home with me. Yeah. He also has

550
00:35:10,040 --> 00:35:12,680
Speaker 1: said that he thought she wasn't serious. He thought at

551
00:35:12,719 --> 00:35:15,280
Speaker 1: any minute she would actually decide, Oh no, just kidding,

552
00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:17,120
Speaker 1: I do want to go home with you, And so

553
00:35:17,160 --> 00:35:20,400
Speaker 1: that's why he hung around so long. From that point,

554
00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:25,040
Speaker 1: his actions for the night are pretty well documented. He

555
00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:29,400
Speaker 1: left the party, he went back to Pam's house, He

556
00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:33,840
Speaker 1: got Pam, got her in the car, they went to

557
00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:38,480
Speaker 1: his parents house to collect his children. Talk about awkward

558
00:35:38,760 --> 00:35:41,080
Speaker 1: showing up at three or four in the morning with

559
00:35:41,160 --> 00:35:43,960
Speaker 1: your girlfriend while your wife is somewhere else to pick

560
00:35:44,080 --> 00:35:48,239
Speaker 1: up your children. That they didn't seem to mind. I

561
00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:50,719
Speaker 1: don't know that that's true. But I also think that

562
00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:54,000
Speaker 1: he left her in the car. She wasn't happy about

563
00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:56,800
Speaker 1: the whole thing either. To be roused it out at three,

564
00:35:57,040 --> 00:36:01,000
Speaker 1: four four in the morning to take a row with

565
00:36:01,080 --> 00:36:03,040
Speaker 1: this guy, I thought it was more like five. I

566
00:36:03,080 --> 00:36:04,800
Speaker 1: thought they were. They went and hung out at Pam's

567
00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:06,000
Speaker 1: house for a little while. Then they went to go

568
00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:09,399
Speaker 1: pick up the kids. And I don't recollect the exact time.

569
00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:13,920
Speaker 1: Like an early morning pick up, it may very well

570
00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:17,279
Speaker 1: have been. But he went and got his kids, brought her,

571
00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:19,600
Speaker 1: dropped her off at her house. No, did they go

572
00:36:19,640 --> 00:36:23,000
Speaker 1: back to They all went back to kids and all

573
00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:27,600
Speaker 1: again weird. So he obviously went and got his kids.

574
00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:30,799
Speaker 1: So it's it's hard to point a finger at what

575
00:36:30,880 --> 00:36:34,040
Speaker 1: he was doing because his his actions and and his

576
00:36:34,200 --> 00:36:37,319
Speaker 1: trail seemed to be pretty easy to follow. Well, if

577
00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:43,320
Speaker 1: you believe his girlfriend, Yeah, that very good point. His

578
00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:45,880
Speaker 1: his his eyewitness, and this is also his girlfriend, so

579
00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:48,319
Speaker 1: she has a bit of a reason to protect him.

580
00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:54,440
Speaker 1: As we said before, Jeffrey Chandler prime suspect. The cops

581
00:36:54,560 --> 00:36:58,520
Speaker 1: bring a case against him, the attorneys bring a case

582
00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:02,640
Speaker 1: against him. It's a huge in quest. In the end,

583
00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:06,680
Speaker 1: they don't have enough evidence and the case goes nowhere

584
00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:10,160
Speaker 1: and he is never convicted of a crime. He's also

585
00:37:10,280 --> 00:37:14,680
Speaker 1: said that he actually wishes that they had just tried him,

586
00:37:14,840 --> 00:37:16,880
Speaker 1: that he had gone to trial, and that he had

587
00:37:16,880 --> 00:37:20,759
Speaker 1: been proven innocent, because he felt that being left kind

588
00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:24,560
Speaker 1: of out in the dry, he was never really exonerated.

589
00:37:24,600 --> 00:37:27,279
Speaker 1: The media continued to say it was him. The whole

590
00:37:27,320 --> 00:37:30,000
Speaker 1: thing was a bit of a circus because there were

591
00:37:30,040 --> 00:37:34,759
Speaker 1: witnesses called that were stopped in the midst of their

592
00:37:34,880 --> 00:37:40,080
Speaker 1: testimony so that they could protect The judge would say, no,

593
00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:43,920
Speaker 1: we would like to protect the decency of this person.

594
00:37:44,160 --> 00:37:47,759
Speaker 1: Do not answer that question. When had got into graphic,

595
00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:52,120
Speaker 1: gratuitous sexual information, they would stop him. So there were

596
00:37:52,640 --> 00:37:54,680
Speaker 1: there were people who some of these people will talk

597
00:37:54,680 --> 00:37:57,640
Speaker 1: about later, who were going to be on the stand

598
00:37:58,360 --> 00:38:01,759
Speaker 1: and the judge dismissed for those kind of reasons. So

599
00:38:02,640 --> 00:38:05,319
Speaker 1: a lot of stuff didn't didn't just get brought out

600
00:38:05,360 --> 00:38:07,760
Speaker 1: into the open, And you're right, it kind of hosed

601
00:38:07,840 --> 00:38:10,040
Speaker 1: him in the end. Yeah, but he got a he

602
00:38:10,120 --> 00:38:11,680
Speaker 1: got a book out of the deal, right, he did.

603
00:38:11,920 --> 00:38:15,120
Speaker 1: He did write, Yeah, he did. I would imagine that.

604
00:38:15,200 --> 00:38:18,080
Speaker 1: It's pretty hard. It's called so you think I did it?

605
00:38:19,040 --> 00:38:21,200
Speaker 1: I'm not. That's not a lie, So I think I

606
00:38:21,239 --> 00:38:23,920
Speaker 1: did it. Every time I think about that title, it

607
00:38:24,040 --> 00:38:26,200
Speaker 1: just kind of makes me gugle because it's kind of

608
00:38:26,200 --> 00:38:29,759
Speaker 1: a silly title. That's a passive aggression. Oh so you

609
00:38:29,760 --> 00:38:36,800
Speaker 1: think I did it? Yeah, so screw you. Let's get

610
00:38:36,840 --> 00:38:40,240
Speaker 1: into theories. Now that we've kind of given the basic

611
00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:45,520
Speaker 1: about the case and the people, let's dive into some details. Okay, well, okay,

612
00:38:45,600 --> 00:38:48,480
Speaker 1: we're talking about theories. So I'm going to lead off

613
00:38:48,480 --> 00:38:55,040
Speaker 1: of one of my favorites was espionage cloak and dagger stuff.

614
00:38:55,400 --> 00:38:58,480
Speaker 1: But it really has seemed that when everybody's turned up

615
00:38:58,520 --> 00:39:02,840
Speaker 1: dead for known reasons, that the allegations of CIA or

616
00:39:02,920 --> 00:39:06,520
Speaker 1: KHB involvement is usually not far behind as as opposed

617
00:39:06,560 --> 00:39:12,799
Speaker 1: to bodies showing up alive. Got it, Yeah, it's it's

618
00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:16,760
Speaker 1: when they're dead for unknown reasons. Yeah, there was one story,

619
00:39:16,880 --> 00:39:18,800
Speaker 1: And I don't know the origins of any of these stories.

620
00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:20,919
Speaker 1: They have been circulated so long, it's been so many

621
00:39:20,960 --> 00:39:23,200
Speaker 1: decades that it's hard to say what the origins are.

622
00:39:23,560 --> 00:39:25,360
Speaker 1: But the one that got a little traction said that

623
00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:28,719
Speaker 1: Bogil have been recommended by whom I don't know as

624
00:39:28,760 --> 00:39:32,440
Speaker 1: an agent for for a s i OH, which we

625
00:39:32,520 --> 00:39:36,239
Speaker 1: mentioned before. It's the Australian Security and Intelligence Office, so

626
00:39:36,480 --> 00:39:39,040
Speaker 1: you know, their equivalent of the CIA. So he was

627
00:39:39,040 --> 00:39:42,640
Speaker 1: recommended during the nineteen fifties. But whether he was actually recruited,

628
00:39:42,800 --> 00:39:46,080
Speaker 1: I don't know, and I would suspect he was not

629
00:39:46,120 --> 00:39:48,560
Speaker 1: recruited by s i OH because what was he doing

630
00:39:48,560 --> 00:39:51,160
Speaker 1: working in a lab for a s i OH. I

631
00:39:51,200 --> 00:39:53,320
Speaker 1: suppose he could have been spying on some of his colleagues.

632
00:39:53,880 --> 00:39:57,040
Speaker 1: But other than that, what was what possible value could

633
00:39:57,040 --> 00:40:00,399
Speaker 1: he be to a s I Oh, I don't know. Yeah,

634
00:40:00,400 --> 00:40:03,319
Speaker 1: it's hard to say. I know he was we talked

635
00:40:03,360 --> 00:40:05,520
Speaker 1: a little bit that he was going to be heading

636
00:40:05,560 --> 00:40:09,080
Speaker 1: to the States for a post in the States. But again,

637
00:40:09,960 --> 00:40:12,799
Speaker 1: why would this, you know, why would they recruit him

638
00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:15,360
Speaker 1: and then bring him to the States. It's it doesn't

639
00:40:15,360 --> 00:40:18,000
Speaker 1: make a lot of sense. Yeah, yeah, and that really

640
00:40:18,040 --> 00:40:20,840
Speaker 1: one and and this was remember in the nineteen fifties.

641
00:40:20,840 --> 00:40:24,319
Speaker 1: Was supposedly he had been maybe possibly recruited long before

642
00:40:24,360 --> 00:40:25,719
Speaker 1: he knew it was going to go to the States.

643
00:40:25,920 --> 00:40:27,800
Speaker 1: Of course he could have been recruited by the KGB

644
00:40:28,239 --> 00:40:33,160
Speaker 1: and some some allegations of that, of course, of course, yeah,

645
00:40:33,280 --> 00:40:35,400
Speaker 1: Jeffrey Chandler, And of course he was probably willing the

646
00:40:35,400 --> 00:40:39,000
Speaker 1: point to figure at anybody other than himself. So he

647
00:40:39,200 --> 00:40:42,799
Speaker 1: suggested that Dr Bogol and Mrs Chandler were murdered by

648
00:40:42,840 --> 00:40:47,759
Speaker 1: the CIA, but with Chandler's being an unfortunate byproduct, Yeah,

649
00:40:47,800 --> 00:40:51,920
Speaker 1: she was collateral damage. Yeah, but Boogel that apparently supported

650
00:40:51,920 --> 00:40:55,520
Speaker 1: a recommendation by a doctor Clifford Dalton, who was a

651
00:40:55,520 --> 00:40:59,239
Speaker 1: member of the Australian Energy Commission, and the recommendation was

652
00:40:59,280 --> 00:41:02,200
Speaker 1: that a fast read a reactor that Dalton developed should

653
00:41:02,280 --> 00:41:05,880
Speaker 1: not be sold to the US and the technology should

654
00:41:05,880 --> 00:41:08,799
Speaker 1: not be shared with the US. That's nuclear technology. Yeah,

655
00:41:08,840 --> 00:41:13,000
Speaker 1: fast breeding reactors, fast breeder reactors. Yeah, yeah, just he

656
00:41:13,000 --> 00:41:15,359
Speaker 1: always says stuff like that, right where he's like, yeah,

657
00:41:15,880 --> 00:41:19,600
Speaker 1: you obviously know everything about that, so you must too,

658
00:41:20,520 --> 00:41:24,280
Speaker 1: just no idea, Okay, yeah, I feel better. Yeah. Breeder

659
00:41:24,320 --> 00:41:26,640
Speaker 1: reactors are one of those one of those dilios, you know,

660
00:41:26,680 --> 00:41:29,719
Speaker 1: most most reactors create just waste, whereas these things are

661
00:41:29,719 --> 00:41:35,640
Speaker 1: built to actually create things like plutonium. Yeah, that's one

662
00:41:35,640 --> 00:41:39,720
Speaker 1: of those things that we're not supposed to have. Yeah. Yeah.

663
00:41:40,160 --> 00:41:43,720
Speaker 1: So it was believed, according to Chandler, that the killing

664
00:41:43,800 --> 00:41:46,360
Speaker 1: was linked to his recommendation, but apparently it was a

665
00:41:46,480 --> 00:41:48,000
Speaker 1: it was a revenge kind of thing, you know, they

666
00:41:48,000 --> 00:41:50,319
Speaker 1: were they were angry and so they killed him. But

667
00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:54,080
Speaker 1: of course that leaves the question was Dr Dalton who

668
00:41:54,520 --> 00:41:57,600
Speaker 1: actually made the original recommendation. Was he killed too? I

669
00:41:57,600 --> 00:41:59,680
Speaker 1: don't believe so. I don't think it was. And he

670
00:41:59,719 --> 00:42:02,319
Speaker 1: was so the original center in this case, So that's

671
00:42:02,400 --> 00:42:06,319
Speaker 1: kind of weak. Tea Frankly another one who said he wasn't.

672
00:42:06,480 --> 00:42:09,239
Speaker 1: He was involved, of course in research on mazers, which

673
00:42:09,320 --> 00:42:11,719
Speaker 1: and some people claim that his research was actually top

674
00:42:11,760 --> 00:42:15,040
Speaker 1: secret research. I don't. I've never really confirmed that. And

675
00:42:15,080 --> 00:42:16,960
Speaker 1: he was due, of course to leave sister in a

676
00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:20,000
Speaker 1: few weeks ago work in the USA Bell Labs, And

677
00:42:20,239 --> 00:42:23,839
Speaker 1: of course Bell Labs does have some highly secret defense contracts.

678
00:42:24,320 --> 00:42:27,200
Speaker 1: Whether Bogel was going to be actually, you know, in

679
00:42:27,360 --> 00:42:29,840
Speaker 1: on knows, I don't know. But he had been He

680
00:42:29,920 --> 00:42:33,279
Speaker 1: had been checked by the FBI before he got the

681
00:42:33,320 --> 00:42:35,239
Speaker 1: Bell job. He had to be cleared by them, and

682
00:42:35,280 --> 00:42:38,240
Speaker 1: apparently they didn't have a problem with him. Another report

683
00:42:38,320 --> 00:42:41,520
Speaker 1: suggests that he was bumped off by the KGB to

684
00:42:41,560 --> 00:42:45,240
Speaker 1: stop his research. But again, why aren't scientists dropping white flies?

685
00:42:45,280 --> 00:42:47,640
Speaker 1: Because I mean, even though Bogel was a very smart guy,

686
00:42:47,840 --> 00:42:49,600
Speaker 1: and let's face it, you know, there were there were

687
00:42:49,640 --> 00:42:56,839
Speaker 1: other smart scientists as a group tend to be pretty intelligence. Yeah. Um.

688
00:42:56,920 --> 00:42:59,520
Speaker 1: And another claim was that the CIA killed him because

689
00:42:59,520 --> 00:43:01,759
Speaker 1: he was a cobl Asians who was selling secrets to

690
00:43:01,760 --> 00:43:07,239
Speaker 1: the Soviets. So but yeah, and and again okay, so

691
00:43:07,239 --> 00:43:08,719
Speaker 1: it was a double agent, so he was working for

692
00:43:09,120 --> 00:43:12,360
Speaker 1: se O and the KGB. I don't know. And again,

693
00:43:12,640 --> 00:43:16,120
Speaker 1: as always in this killing also Chandler was just collateral damage.

694
00:43:17,040 --> 00:43:18,960
Speaker 1: She seems to be kind of collateral damage. And a

695
00:43:18,960 --> 00:43:21,080
Speaker 1: lot of these yeah, and of course, yeah, this is

696
00:43:21,560 --> 00:43:24,680
Speaker 1: a cold war, there's lots of paranoida and conspiracy. Conspiracy

697
00:43:24,719 --> 00:43:29,160
Speaker 1: theories were kind of rampant. Had another suggestion that somebody

698
00:43:29,239 --> 00:43:33,320
Speaker 1: made god knows who, originally he was handing over his

699
00:43:33,440 --> 00:43:36,919
Speaker 1: super secret agent role to Margaret Chandler. And the reason

700
00:43:36,960 --> 00:43:38,560
Speaker 1: they went to the river it was to retrieve a

701
00:43:38,640 --> 00:43:42,319
Speaker 1: hidden object at a quote drop that was under the

702
00:43:42,320 --> 00:43:45,520
Speaker 1: water which could only be reached at low tide. That's dumb,

703
00:43:45,760 --> 00:43:49,240
Speaker 1: it's dumb. Yeah, yeah, it doesn't. She does no point

704
00:43:49,280 --> 00:43:54,160
Speaker 1: for her to be secret. She doesn't strike It doesn't

705
00:43:54,160 --> 00:43:55,960
Speaker 1: strike me a secret agent of material. But anyway, in

706
00:43:56,000 --> 00:43:59,600
Speaker 1: this theory that while they are busy retrieving this object

707
00:43:59,640 --> 00:44:02,560
Speaker 1: whatever was, enemy agents appeared, stripped the naked, killed them

708
00:44:02,560 --> 00:44:06,000
Speaker 1: by holding a poisonous substances over their faces, and then

709
00:44:06,680 --> 00:44:08,719
Speaker 1: dropped their bodies, cover them up a little bit, and

710
00:44:08,760 --> 00:44:11,920
Speaker 1: then made their get away. What's wait, wait, now he

711
00:44:12,040 --> 00:44:14,600
Speaker 1: had that square of carpet, So what's the carpet got

712
00:44:14,640 --> 00:44:17,160
Speaker 1: to do with this? The carpet was just to you know,

713
00:44:17,200 --> 00:44:19,839
Speaker 1: get down the river's edge, and I presumably they had

714
00:44:19,840 --> 00:44:22,120
Speaker 1: to kneel down to reach down unto the water to

715
00:44:22,120 --> 00:44:24,960
Speaker 1: get to this hidden object and this hidden drop. The

716
00:44:25,000 --> 00:44:28,359
Speaker 1: carpet was just like to kneel on to walk on them.

717
00:44:28,440 --> 00:44:31,760
Speaker 1: Although I guess it's it's possible that they were naked

718
00:44:31,760 --> 00:44:34,080
Speaker 1: from the waist down because they were trying to protect

719
00:44:34,080 --> 00:44:38,160
Speaker 1: their clothes while they were kneeling in muddy, gross area. Yeah,

720
00:44:38,160 --> 00:44:41,600
Speaker 1: the river was pretty pretty disgusting and polluted, so that's

721
00:44:41,640 --> 00:44:46,479
Speaker 1: possible anyways, Sorry continuing, Yeah, no, I mean, there's there's

722
00:44:46,560 --> 00:44:49,440
Speaker 1: validity to that, but I'm not going to buy into him.

723
00:44:50,040 --> 00:44:54,080
Speaker 1: See how people could go for that. People like this

724
00:44:54,120 --> 00:44:57,040
Speaker 1: kind of stuff. That's why it's popular. That doesn't matter

725
00:44:57,040 --> 00:44:58,400
Speaker 1: if it's true or not. Why do you think so

726
00:44:58,400 --> 00:45:02,279
Speaker 1: many spy books are written? Really? Yeah, not that many

727
00:45:02,320 --> 00:45:05,960
Speaker 1: good ones, unfortunately. Uh, let's see what else will we

728
00:45:06,000 --> 00:45:08,960
Speaker 1: have here? There was in the nineteen eighties, journalists used

729
00:45:09,000 --> 00:45:11,359
Speaker 1: the Freedom of Information Act in the US to get

730
00:45:11,360 --> 00:45:15,880
Speaker 1: the classified documents which showed that j Edgar Hoover you

731
00:45:15,880 --> 00:45:19,520
Speaker 1: guys probably know that name, right, India had discussed the

732
00:45:19,560 --> 00:45:23,239
Speaker 1: case with the New South Wales police, and I'm not sure.

733
00:45:23,280 --> 00:45:25,359
Speaker 1: I mean that's I seem to recall hearing something about

734
00:45:25,400 --> 00:45:27,360
Speaker 1: there was a little bit of cooperation because the FBI,

735
00:45:27,400 --> 00:45:30,600
Speaker 1: of course has labs that can do we're very space

736
00:45:30,640 --> 00:45:36,520
Speaker 1: getting analysis. So there's nothing necessarily sinister about cooperation between

737
00:45:36,719 --> 00:45:40,319
Speaker 1: the New South Wales police and the FBI. Yeah. I

738
00:45:40,360 --> 00:45:45,160
Speaker 1: don't see anything hinky there. Uh. Some people have said

739
00:45:45,200 --> 00:45:48,040
Speaker 1: the FBI may have conducted its own investigation in the murders,

740
00:45:48,080 --> 00:45:51,719
Speaker 1: which I don't have any evidence for, and others have

741
00:45:51,840 --> 00:45:55,160
Speaker 1: said that the US and Australian governments have been unusually

742
00:45:55,160 --> 00:45:59,920
Speaker 1: secret about this case, and because because because they have

743
00:46:00,040 --> 00:46:03,200
Speaker 1: no information about exactly, they had nothing to say about it.

744
00:46:03,239 --> 00:46:09,960
Speaker 1: I think, yeah, So no, there's you know, I don't

745
00:46:09,960 --> 00:46:12,920
Speaker 1: think any of these theories, any these espionage FPI all

746
00:46:12,960 --> 00:46:15,200
Speaker 1: that sum I don't think any of them really hold

747
00:46:15,239 --> 00:46:18,400
Speaker 1: any water at all. I'm on the same page. So

748
00:46:18,440 --> 00:46:21,000
Speaker 1: does anybody else have any any theories I want to share?

749
00:46:21,200 --> 00:46:25,279
Speaker 1: You know? We do. We have another one, which is

750
00:46:25,280 --> 00:46:30,560
Speaker 1: a little bit cookie, which is that it was a

751
00:46:30,640 --> 00:46:35,120
Speaker 1: sex drug or some kind of fun drug whatever, a

752
00:46:35,160 --> 00:46:38,200
Speaker 1: fun drug that they took themselves, that they took themselves

753
00:46:38,200 --> 00:46:44,879
Speaker 1: self administered that they overdosed on. Yeahs, yeah, I don't

754
00:46:44,880 --> 00:46:46,879
Speaker 1: like if if it's going to make it more fun

755
00:46:46,920 --> 00:46:53,040
Speaker 1: than have taking five times as much. Yeah, I guess

756
00:46:54,880 --> 00:46:59,560
Speaker 1: that's not just Disclaimered. No, no, don't don't do that.

757
00:46:59,800 --> 00:47:04,080
Speaker 1: It doesn't work. As we've talked about earlier, that the

758
00:47:04,120 --> 00:47:09,440
Speaker 1: police had initially decided and come to the conclusion that

759
00:47:10,120 --> 00:47:14,799
Speaker 1: they had been poisoned or they had potentially overdosed on

760
00:47:14,880 --> 00:47:19,000
Speaker 1: a drug. Not an unreasonable no no, and especially when

761
00:47:19,000 --> 00:47:22,280
Speaker 1: there's no outward signs of trauma. And this this isn't

762
00:47:22,400 --> 00:47:27,800
Speaker 1: a logical conclusion. This theory that the sex drug theory

763
00:47:28,400 --> 00:47:33,000
Speaker 1: centers around the idea that they decided this the pair

764
00:47:33,160 --> 00:47:39,040
Speaker 1: Dr Bogel and Mr Chandler Gibbon Margaret decided, Hey, let's

765
00:47:39,120 --> 00:47:43,520
Speaker 1: take something to heighten the experience, to increase the fun,

766
00:47:44,160 --> 00:47:47,600
Speaker 1: and just make this sexual experience out of this world.

767
00:47:49,480 --> 00:47:53,360
Speaker 1: I know, I know. The problem is, of course that

768
00:47:53,600 --> 00:47:58,120
Speaker 1: there has been there not has been. There was extensive

769
00:47:58,560 --> 00:48:04,080
Speaker 1: testing done the tissues taken from the bodies, and no

770
00:48:04,560 --> 00:48:11,200
Speaker 1: substances were ever found, and I mean extensive. Every bit

771
00:48:11,600 --> 00:48:18,160
Speaker 1: of usable tissue sample that was available was tested. I

772
00:48:18,160 --> 00:48:21,840
Speaker 1: think the Corriner eventually ran out of tissue samples. Yeah,

773
00:48:23,040 --> 00:48:24,480
Speaker 1: he did a lot of testing. He did a lot

774
00:48:24,520 --> 00:48:26,759
Speaker 1: of testing it. I don't remember. Maybe one of you

775
00:48:26,800 --> 00:48:30,520
Speaker 1: can help me out here. I think it's the liver

776
00:48:30,800 --> 00:48:34,520
Speaker 1: and maybe another organ that they used. They did the liver.

777
00:48:34,640 --> 00:48:37,319
Speaker 1: I think they did some muscle tissue. I think they

778
00:48:37,360 --> 00:48:40,480
Speaker 1: did you know, kind of the standard stuff that filters

779
00:48:40,600 --> 00:48:45,160
Speaker 1: or holes onto some of that stuff. Yeah, but if

780
00:48:45,160 --> 00:48:49,399
Speaker 1: you've got two people, that's a lot of samples. And

781
00:48:49,760 --> 00:48:51,600
Speaker 1: I wonder how much they weighed when they were buried.

782
00:48:51,680 --> 00:48:56,400
Speaker 1: Now I don't know, but they took a lot of

783
00:48:56,440 --> 00:49:00,160
Speaker 1: samples and in the end they were all used up.

784
00:49:01,120 --> 00:49:04,719
Speaker 1: There's been a lot, and I mean a lot of

785
00:49:04,800 --> 00:49:10,319
Speaker 1: speculation that the couple took LSD. The thing that you

786
00:49:10,400 --> 00:49:16,600
Speaker 1: need to understand is that at this time LSD wasn't

787
00:49:16,600 --> 00:49:22,040
Speaker 1: a popular drug in Australia and there wasn't a good

788
00:49:22,200 --> 00:49:27,680
Speaker 1: known way to test for it. They didn't have a oh,

789
00:49:27,760 --> 00:49:29,279
Speaker 1: well would run this test to see if you've been

790
00:49:29,320 --> 00:49:33,479
Speaker 1: on LSD. That wasn't developed at that time. And it's

791
00:49:33,600 --> 00:49:37,280
Speaker 1: also important to point out from the research that I've done,

792
00:49:38,360 --> 00:49:45,359
Speaker 1: it's nearly impossible to overdose on LSD. Most folks that

793
00:49:45,560 --> 00:49:50,280
Speaker 1: dive from taking the drug is not the drug itself,

794
00:49:50,320 --> 00:49:56,080
Speaker 1: but there's subsequent actions thereafter. Although it's it's probably worth

795
00:49:56,160 --> 00:50:00,040
Speaker 1: mentioning that with all of these allegations of LSD, of

796
00:50:00,080 --> 00:50:02,520
Speaker 1: the allegations that the LSD that they had taken had

797
00:50:02,560 --> 00:50:06,560
Speaker 1: been made by Dr Bogel in their lab so it

798
00:50:06,640 --> 00:50:12,400
Speaker 1: was impure, or or that it messed up someone, it

799
00:50:12,480 --> 00:50:14,680
Speaker 1: may not have been pure lg D. Well, yeah, I

800
00:50:14,680 --> 00:50:17,640
Speaker 1: mean actually typically LSD is usually cut with something, usually

801
00:50:17,719 --> 00:50:20,640
Speaker 1: usually speed, to enhance the who listen to Jenny properties

802
00:50:20,640 --> 00:50:22,560
Speaker 1: of it, because LSD is actually not a terribly who

803
00:50:22,600 --> 00:50:26,000
Speaker 1: llustinogenic drug. Yeah, yeah, I don't bet again, I I

804
00:50:26,360 --> 00:50:29,359
Speaker 1: you know, I don't see well, yeah, regardless, I mean

805
00:50:29,440 --> 00:50:32,919
Speaker 1: it's it's people die typically because of what they're doing,

806
00:50:33,000 --> 00:50:36,000
Speaker 1: because whether they're on a good trip or a bad trip,

807
00:50:36,080 --> 00:50:42,160
Speaker 1: they put themselves into a situation that is dangerous and

808
00:50:42,600 --> 00:50:45,839
Speaker 1: they pay the price for that. So the the whole

809
00:50:46,000 --> 00:50:51,360
Speaker 1: LSD sex drug fun time overdose, it's it's got some

810
00:50:51,440 --> 00:50:54,279
Speaker 1: big holes in it. Yeah, O kind of I don't

811
00:50:54,280 --> 00:51:02,160
Speaker 1: see anything to hear about marijuana overdose? Is it my turn? Cool?

812
00:51:03,000 --> 00:51:07,040
Speaker 1: My theory, My first theory is the jealous lover theory,

813
00:51:07,360 --> 00:51:09,960
Speaker 1: which makes sense a little bit. There's been a lot

814
00:51:10,000 --> 00:51:12,120
Speaker 1: of songs about jealous lovers, so I can see how

815
00:51:12,160 --> 00:51:16,359
Speaker 1: that would be. There are three kind of main possibilities here.

816
00:51:16,719 --> 00:51:22,839
Speaker 1: I'm gonna start with the dumbest one first. They're so

817
00:51:22,920 --> 00:51:25,759
Speaker 1: One of the things we glossed over was this eyewitness

818
00:51:25,840 --> 00:51:29,680
Speaker 1: who was actually fairly important to the case, named Mr Shlis. So,

819
00:51:29,719 --> 00:51:39,000
Speaker 1: how you would say that looks like jealous jealous Chalice,

820
00:51:40,320 --> 00:51:44,839
Speaker 1: Chalice in the Palace Las anyway, however you say his name,

821
00:51:44,960 --> 00:51:53,279
Speaker 1: Mr Halis actually saw he I'm going to talk about

822
00:51:53,360 --> 00:51:56,160
Speaker 1: him in a more in a minute, but just trust

823
00:51:56,200 --> 00:51:58,839
Speaker 1: me on this one. He's an eyewitness and he ad

824
00:51:58,840 --> 00:52:03,279
Speaker 1: about the time that they placed the death of Dr

825
00:52:03,360 --> 00:52:10,160
Speaker 1: Bogel and Mrs Chandler Gibbon. Margaret saw a yellow quote

826
00:52:10,239 --> 00:52:17,759
Speaker 1: yellow blondie haired man, that's what it said, fleeing across

827
00:52:17,920 --> 00:52:21,720
Speaker 1: the street. This path that he was driving on pretty

828
00:52:21,840 --> 00:52:24,320
Speaker 1: dang close to where they ended up finding Margaret's body.

829
00:52:24,960 --> 00:52:29,680
Speaker 1: I'm sure it wasn't just a jogger he was. The

830
00:52:29,680 --> 00:52:31,440
Speaker 1: impression that I have is that it's just kind of

831
00:52:31,440 --> 00:52:33,479
Speaker 1: a little there's the road and then there's a strip

832
00:52:33,520 --> 00:52:37,399
Speaker 1: and then it's the river. So unless he like can

833
00:52:37,480 --> 00:52:41,480
Speaker 1: run on top of water, because he darted across the

834
00:52:41,560 --> 00:52:44,480
Speaker 1: road too towards the river, it's totally possible he was

835
00:52:44,480 --> 00:52:51,680
Speaker 1: a transient any of those things. Regardless, the speculation is that,

836
00:52:51,719 --> 00:52:57,160
Speaker 1: oh maybe that was Margaret's not GiB lover and he

837
00:52:57,200 --> 00:52:59,879
Speaker 1: was jealous and somehow knew where they were and somehow killed.

838
00:53:01,440 --> 00:53:03,040
Speaker 1: It's dumb. Yeah, you're looking at me like it's done,

839
00:53:03,040 --> 00:53:04,920
Speaker 1: because it's dumb. I'm just I'm just saying things that

840
00:53:05,000 --> 00:53:09,520
Speaker 1: I've seen an app on the Yellow Blonde here. No,

841
00:53:09,600 --> 00:53:15,120
Speaker 1: he did not know. Next up is Margaret Fowler. She

842
00:53:16,239 --> 00:53:19,200
Speaker 1: was one of gibbs lovers. They had been seeing each

843
00:53:19,239 --> 00:53:21,880
Speaker 1: other for a while. Actually, I think it was like

844
00:53:21,960 --> 00:53:26,480
Speaker 1: more than three years something like that. Yeah. He she

845
00:53:26,480 --> 00:53:31,759
Speaker 1: she worked at Cicero with Dr Bogel and he tried

846
00:53:31,800 --> 00:53:33,120
Speaker 1: to break it off a couple of times, and she

847
00:53:33,160 --> 00:53:35,840
Speaker 1: said she would say things like I'll die if you do.

848
00:53:37,200 --> 00:53:41,600
Speaker 1: She also told the police during the investigation that that

849
00:53:41,680 --> 00:53:44,960
Speaker 1: she was going to move to America with Dr Bogel

850
00:53:45,000 --> 00:53:46,880
Speaker 1: with Jip Gibb and they were going to get a

851
00:53:46,880 --> 00:53:49,520
Speaker 1: flat together, that that was what was happening. She was

852
00:53:49,560 --> 00:53:51,400
Speaker 1: going to go to New York with him when he

853
00:53:51,520 --> 00:53:53,279
Speaker 1: left for America. No, I thought he was going to

854
00:53:53,360 --> 00:53:55,400
Speaker 1: take his family with him. No, well that's not what

855
00:53:55,440 --> 00:53:59,759
Speaker 1: she said. That's not what Mrs Margaret Fowler said. Just

856
00:53:59,800 --> 00:54:04,439
Speaker 1: say she was thinking about all we've all seen those

857
00:54:04,440 --> 00:54:09,960
Speaker 1: stories of the mistress. He said this, and he loves this,

858
00:54:10,040 --> 00:54:11,840
Speaker 1: and he just he can't quite leave them yet. But

859
00:54:11,840 --> 00:54:14,279
Speaker 1: we're making plans like that. That's what that sounds like

860
00:54:14,360 --> 00:54:17,640
Speaker 1: to me. There are two main things here. The theory

861
00:54:17,760 --> 00:54:21,480
Speaker 1: goes that Mrs Fowler Margaret Flower, as I said, there's

862
00:54:21,480 --> 00:54:24,080
Speaker 1: lots of Margarets in this story. She wasn't even at

863
00:54:24,120 --> 00:54:26,040
Speaker 1: the New Year's party. She's not part of the five

864
00:54:26,200 --> 00:54:28,399
Speaker 1: people that NI were named Margaret at the New Year's party.

865
00:54:29,239 --> 00:54:31,440
Speaker 1: She wasn't even invited to that. The theory is that

866
00:54:31,520 --> 00:54:35,279
Speaker 1: she somehow knew where they were going to be and

867
00:54:35,440 --> 00:54:38,080
Speaker 1: maybe follow them from the party, or maybe that was

868
00:54:38,560 --> 00:54:43,479
Speaker 1: Gibbs lovers Lane place of choice and somehow, yeah, where

869
00:54:43,480 --> 00:54:48,279
Speaker 1: she overpowered both of them and murdered them somehow. It's

870
00:54:48,400 --> 00:54:51,120
Speaker 1: not great. The only thing that does add a little

871
00:54:51,160 --> 00:54:54,160
Speaker 1: credence to this theory is a man was interviewed later

872
00:54:54,280 --> 00:54:59,760
Speaker 1: named Mr. Carlson Carlton. Mr Carlton, sorry, and he said

873
00:54:59,800 --> 00:55:02,839
Speaker 1: the he saw Margaret Fowler a couple of days after

874
00:55:02,880 --> 00:55:06,120
Speaker 1: the murder, before it was huge news, before it had

875
00:55:06,160 --> 00:55:11,520
Speaker 1: really broken. Yeah, and she said, oh, they're dead and

876
00:55:12,000 --> 00:55:15,720
Speaker 1: Mr Carlton said who, And she said these two people,

877
00:55:16,000 --> 00:55:20,040
Speaker 1: Margaret and Gibb. And then she kept repeating, uh, they

878
00:55:20,040 --> 00:55:21,719
Speaker 1: were going to cop out and it's all going to

879
00:55:21,719 --> 00:55:24,839
Speaker 1: come out, and was talking about chemical warfare and things

880
00:55:24,880 --> 00:55:28,400
Speaker 1: like that. She's kind of crazy. She seems super crazy.

881
00:55:28,440 --> 00:55:32,760
Speaker 1: Anything she did seem unstable, but it is worth mentioning.

882
00:55:32,800 --> 00:55:35,719
Speaker 1: I think that she did kind of implicate herself to

883
00:55:35,920 --> 00:55:38,960
Speaker 1: at least one witness, saying they were gonna, you know there,

884
00:55:39,000 --> 00:55:40,520
Speaker 1: it's all gonna come out, it's all going to come out,

885
00:55:40,560 --> 00:55:44,840
Speaker 1: and that Margaret and Gibb were somehow working together on

886
00:55:44,960 --> 00:55:47,880
Speaker 1: chemical warfare and they were going to release it and

887
00:55:47,920 --> 00:55:50,839
Speaker 1: that's why they were murdered. I'm going to say right now,

888
00:55:50,880 --> 00:55:55,160
Speaker 1: I I can see that being as simple as it's

889
00:55:55,160 --> 00:55:59,880
Speaker 1: all going to come out. Our relationship on the download,

890
00:56:00,000 --> 00:56:04,719
Speaker 1: relationship is gonna come out. But then within a couple

891
00:56:04,760 --> 00:56:07,200
Speaker 1: of weeks she had no problem talking about the relationship,

892
00:56:07,239 --> 00:56:10,239
Speaker 1: no problem she's also one of the witnesses if I

893
00:56:10,280 --> 00:56:14,200
Speaker 1: remember correctly, that never actually testified at the end quest

894
00:56:14,640 --> 00:56:19,560
Speaker 1: and because of the morality reason, and she was married

895
00:56:19,600 --> 00:56:22,560
Speaker 1: also right, yes, but she was also the one who

896
00:56:22,560 --> 00:56:25,759
Speaker 1: said that she saw Gibb and Margaret getting busy in

897
00:56:25,800 --> 00:56:29,040
Speaker 1: the bushes at the Christmas party. She was barbecue. Yeah,

898
00:56:29,120 --> 00:56:38,239
Speaker 1: the barbecue, Okay, worth mentioning. Why because so much of

899
00:56:38,280 --> 00:56:41,719
Speaker 1: a thing. I have no idea. Another player that we

900
00:56:41,760 --> 00:56:44,960
Speaker 1: haven't really discussed yet is Ken Nash, the host of

901
00:56:45,000 --> 00:56:48,040
Speaker 1: the party, the New Year's party. As we said, he

902
00:56:48,160 --> 00:56:52,359
Speaker 1: was the one dispensing drinks the whole night, and as

903
00:56:52,360 --> 00:56:55,000
Speaker 1: it turns out, he was mildly obsessed with this case

904
00:56:55,600 --> 00:56:59,040
Speaker 1: and killed himself thirteen years give or take a day

905
00:56:59,440 --> 00:57:02,879
Speaker 1: to the day a actor, Margaret and Gibb had been

906
00:57:02,880 --> 00:57:07,560
Speaker 1: found dead. But although there's another significant anniverse, also worth

907
00:57:07,600 --> 00:57:10,480
Speaker 1: mentioning is that, you know, honor about that day two

908
00:57:10,560 --> 00:57:13,160
Speaker 1: years prior, his wife Ruth had died of cancer, So

909
00:57:13,560 --> 00:57:16,400
Speaker 1: take that with a grain of salt. But since he

910
00:57:16,520 --> 00:57:19,720
Speaker 1: was the one dispensing drinks, he could have easily slipped

911
00:57:19,720 --> 00:57:26,080
Speaker 1: the pair something. It's it's thought that, uh, you know,

912
00:57:26,160 --> 00:57:28,040
Speaker 1: he could have done that and it may have been

913
00:57:28,080 --> 00:57:31,080
Speaker 1: a prank, but also maybe he was in love with

914
00:57:31,120 --> 00:57:36,160
Speaker 1: Margaret too, who knows her? So we killed her and Gibb. Uh,

915
00:57:36,240 --> 00:57:39,280
Speaker 1: well Gibble was Gibb was known to his friends is

916
00:57:39,320 --> 00:57:41,240
Speaker 1: a bit of a prankster. So I can see that.

917
00:57:41,480 --> 00:57:45,040
Speaker 1: I can see where this This has some traction. Is well,

918
00:57:45,320 --> 00:57:48,320
Speaker 1: GiB played a prank on him at work, and he thought, well,

919
00:57:48,360 --> 00:57:50,840
Speaker 1: I'll get him, and oh he's hanging out with Margaret. Well,

920
00:57:50,840 --> 00:57:52,800
Speaker 1: oh well she's there too. I'll put it in both

921
00:57:52,800 --> 00:57:56,800
Speaker 1: thereuse that explains a lot. Actually, he slipped laxatives into

922
00:57:56,840 --> 00:58:00,360
Speaker 1: both their drinks because all the feces. But it wouldn't

923
00:58:00,440 --> 00:58:05,600
Speaker 1: kill them that fast, but they were they were tainted. Okay, Yeah,

924
00:58:05,680 --> 00:58:09,920
Speaker 1: I guess from worth noting is that it does seem

925
00:58:10,000 --> 00:58:13,040
Speaker 1: like Ken Nash was kind of a boring dude. So

926
00:58:13,080 --> 00:58:15,400
Speaker 1: I don't know why he would suddenly think I I'll

927
00:58:15,400 --> 00:58:19,200
Speaker 1: prank him, that'll be fun. He seemed really boring. He

928
00:58:19,280 --> 00:58:22,520
Speaker 1: would only want to give people to drinks. He's a square,

929
00:58:22,600 --> 00:58:25,600
Speaker 1: was a square. Why would he be suddenly doing that

930
00:58:25,600 --> 00:58:29,240
Speaker 1: that that doesn't fit with his personality profile. Well, he

931
00:58:29,360 --> 00:58:32,800
Speaker 1: might consider doing something something like that, but slipping deadly

932
00:58:32,800 --> 00:58:36,320
Speaker 1: poison in their drinks. That's not really a prank. Yeah,

933
00:58:36,520 --> 00:58:40,320
Speaker 1: I agree, I think that that's he misjudged the dosage

934
00:58:42,040 --> 00:58:46,240
Speaker 1: wildly though. Oh I'm gonna make him a little little

935
00:58:46,840 --> 00:58:50,280
Speaker 1: I'm gonna I'm just gonna screw with him a little bit. Oops.

936
00:58:50,320 --> 00:58:54,240
Speaker 1: I dumped the whole vial in. Oh well, I'll mix

937
00:58:54,240 --> 00:58:57,720
Speaker 1: it between the two drinks. I don't delude it. This

938
00:58:57,800 --> 00:59:00,840
Speaker 1: is where this that that runs well, and this actually

939
00:59:00,840 --> 00:59:06,680
Speaker 1: flows into my next theory, which is poisoning of some kind. Right,

940
00:59:06,800 --> 00:59:09,160
Speaker 1: we have been talking about poison. Let's keep talking about poison.

941
00:59:09,880 --> 00:59:13,440
Speaker 1: And like I said, despite Ken's insistence that he'd quote

942
00:59:13,480 --> 00:59:17,120
Speaker 1: dispensed no more than two drinks per guessed, there are

943
00:59:17,160 --> 00:59:19,920
Speaker 1: a lot of reports that both Margaret and Gibb looked

944
00:59:19,960 --> 00:59:22,280
Speaker 1: pretty drunk by the end of the night. They had

945
00:59:22,320 --> 00:59:26,480
Speaker 1: glassy eyes, they were hunched over. Their reports were drunk,

946
00:59:26,560 --> 00:59:29,439
Speaker 1: But what people are describing is they were looking very ill,

947
00:59:29,960 --> 00:59:36,000
Speaker 1: very pale, kind of sweaty, clammy, glassy eyed, hunched over.

948
00:59:36,400 --> 00:59:39,640
Speaker 1: It's two in the morning. Yeah, even if you're not drunk,

949
00:59:40,200 --> 00:59:43,480
Speaker 1: you're tired. At two in the morning, you're gonna not

950
00:59:43,760 --> 00:59:50,200
Speaker 1: look your best that now, Just so Also, you got

951
00:59:50,200 --> 00:59:52,840
Speaker 1: to remember too that just because he was only serving

952
00:59:52,880 --> 00:59:56,120
Speaker 1: up two drinks didn't mean people had flasks with them

953
00:59:56,160 --> 00:59:58,840
Speaker 1: and stuff like. Well, and I but I do think

954
00:59:58,880 --> 01:00:02,400
Speaker 1: it's probably worth mentioning that it seems people noticed this

955
01:00:02,440 --> 01:00:04,920
Speaker 1: as more of an a cute thing. It wasn't like

956
01:00:05,200 --> 01:00:08,240
Speaker 1: a gradual progression of them kind of getting sleepy and

957
01:00:09,320 --> 01:00:12,200
Speaker 1: hunching over and getting glassy eyed and get slowly getting drunk.

958
01:00:12,200 --> 01:00:14,040
Speaker 1: It was that they were talking to them, and then

959
01:00:14,080 --> 01:00:18,640
Speaker 1: five minutes later they looked pretty ill. I know again,

960
01:00:18,680 --> 01:00:20,600
Speaker 1: I don't mean to interrupt. I'm just trying to flesh

961
01:00:20,600 --> 01:00:22,560
Speaker 1: this out and see what else could come of it

962
01:00:23,520 --> 01:00:28,160
Speaker 1: if they've decided we're gonna have this trist But we're

963
01:00:28,200 --> 01:00:32,760
Speaker 1: in this awkward situation in the social environment where GiB

964
01:00:32,800 --> 01:00:35,880
Speaker 1: doesn't want everybody to know that he's out playing in

965
01:00:35,880 --> 01:00:40,840
Speaker 1: the field, and Margaret's a little shy about that. I

966
01:00:40,880 --> 01:00:44,400
Speaker 1: can see that being a bit of nerves. Do you

967
01:00:44,480 --> 01:00:47,240
Speaker 1: know where I'm heading with this? Where I'm I'm gonna

968
01:00:47,280 --> 01:00:50,360
Speaker 1: do this thing, but I'm kind of nervous because everybody's

969
01:00:50,400 --> 01:00:52,280
Speaker 1: around and I don't I don't know how to how

970
01:00:52,720 --> 01:00:55,200
Speaker 1: don't like get out of here and not make it obvious.

971
01:00:55,440 --> 01:00:58,880
Speaker 1: Well they weren't. They weren't reading very secretive of it.

972
01:01:00,120 --> 01:01:02,800
Speaker 1: They had told the nash Is that Gibb was taking

973
01:01:02,880 --> 01:01:05,680
Speaker 1: marg at home, but that could have been under the

974
01:01:05,840 --> 01:01:11,000
Speaker 1: illusion of, hey, guess what, drunk Jeffrey's not here. Could

975
01:01:11,120 --> 01:01:14,439
Speaker 1: but that's the same. So they leave together, So he's

976
01:01:14,520 --> 01:01:16,280
Speaker 1: being a good guy in giving her at home. The

977
01:01:16,480 --> 01:01:19,240
Speaker 1: nerves of it, I don't know, people feel really weird

978
01:01:19,280 --> 01:01:22,280
Speaker 1: and awkward about that. I mean, think about your friends

979
01:01:22,360 --> 01:01:25,520
Speaker 1: when they meet somebody and they're they're gonna they're gonna

980
01:01:25,640 --> 01:01:28,760
Speaker 1: go off together for the first time to to hook

981
01:01:28,920 --> 01:01:31,880
Speaker 1: up or whatever the case. Maybe, And I've seen friends

982
01:01:31,960 --> 01:01:35,120
Speaker 1: who are a little weird about the whole thing, and

983
01:01:35,360 --> 01:01:38,160
Speaker 1: you watch it's like, what is going on? You don't

984
01:01:38,280 --> 01:01:40,920
Speaker 1: look right? Are you okay? Are you in high school?

985
01:01:41,840 --> 01:01:43,439
Speaker 1: I have seen it in high school. I have seen

986
01:01:43,480 --> 01:01:45,520
Speaker 1: it in college. I have seen it in my thirties.

987
01:01:45,960 --> 01:01:48,680
Speaker 1: I have seen people do this. And these people she

988
01:01:48,920 --> 01:01:53,080
Speaker 1: was late twenties, he's his late thirties. People still act

989
01:01:53,200 --> 01:01:56,680
Speaker 1: like that, especially in a kind of a repressed arab

990
01:01:57,000 --> 01:02:01,720
Speaker 1: Is nineteen fifties, early sixties. It's you know, I can

991
01:02:01,800 --> 01:02:04,960
Speaker 1: see that going in some societal norms and causing some

992
01:02:05,160 --> 01:02:09,439
Speaker 1: butterflies in the stomach. Okay, it's just my take. Yeah,

993
01:02:11,160 --> 01:02:13,760
Speaker 1: disputed as much as you want, or we can continue.

994
01:02:15,320 --> 01:02:18,760
Speaker 1: And again, people have a way of modifying and reinterpreting

995
01:02:18,800 --> 01:02:21,760
Speaker 1: their own memories. Memory is not an accurate thing, that's true.

996
01:02:22,080 --> 01:02:25,520
Speaker 1: So can we just can let's just continue here. Maybe

997
01:02:25,520 --> 01:02:28,280
Speaker 1: they drank some manti freeze. I didn't, but let's continue

998
01:02:28,320 --> 01:02:31,720
Speaker 1: on with just keep going. So, like I said, it's

999
01:02:31,720 --> 01:02:34,880
Speaker 1: possible they were poisoned before we went on this weird

1000
01:02:36,000 --> 01:02:42,480
Speaker 1: side quest and my quest, ken Ken would have pretty

1001
01:02:42,520 --> 01:02:45,680
Speaker 1: much been the only one to have been able to

1002
01:02:45,760 --> 01:02:48,880
Speaker 1: poison them. It's this wasn't the kind of party where

1003
01:02:48,880 --> 01:02:50,960
Speaker 1: you're just leaving your drink everywhere. People pretty much had

1004
01:02:50,960 --> 01:02:53,360
Speaker 1: their drinks in hand, and there was food at the party,

1005
01:02:53,400 --> 01:02:55,560
Speaker 1: but it was all the face style. So for them

1006
01:02:55,600 --> 01:02:57,320
Speaker 1: to have been the only ones to have gotten sick,

1007
01:02:57,520 --> 01:02:59,720
Speaker 1: there's really no way that it could have been the food.

1008
01:03:00,040 --> 01:03:02,000
Speaker 1: And it couldn't have been food poisoning because of that

1009
01:03:03,000 --> 01:03:08,760
Speaker 1: same thing. We're talking malicious poisoning here, right, not accidental,

1010
01:03:08,880 --> 01:03:11,720
Speaker 1: Not oh we accidentally took too many drugs. We took it.

1011
01:03:11,880 --> 01:03:16,880
Speaker 1: We're talking about somebody slipping them something at some point. Interestingly,

1012
01:03:17,440 --> 01:03:21,840
Speaker 1: aside from actual consumption drink or eating poison, there have

1013
01:03:21,920 --> 01:03:27,479
Speaker 1: been some suggestions about aerosol poisons. What yeah, the gas

1014
01:03:27,560 --> 01:03:30,920
Speaker 1: poisons that would be in an aerosol form. One suggestion

1015
01:03:31,000 --> 01:03:32,920
Speaker 1: is that it could have been a can that was

1016
01:03:33,000 --> 01:03:38,880
Speaker 1: placed under the pedals of gibbs car that when he accelerated,

1017
01:03:38,920 --> 01:03:43,200
Speaker 1: it would have dispensed it. This is almost going in

1018
01:03:43,360 --> 01:03:48,880
Speaker 1: tandem with Joe. Yeah, it's a very cloak and dagger

1019
01:03:48,920 --> 01:03:51,840
Speaker 1: way to go about it. Okay, So that that was suggested.

1020
01:03:51,880 --> 01:03:54,080
Speaker 1: It was also suggested that somebody could have come and

1021
01:03:54,200 --> 01:03:57,960
Speaker 1: sprayed them in the face with the aerosol of some

1022
01:03:58,160 --> 01:04:02,160
Speaker 1: kind at some point, at some point point there. Gosh,

1023
01:04:02,480 --> 01:04:06,440
Speaker 1: there's some very interesting aerosol suggestions. And and in fairness,

1024
01:04:06,600 --> 01:04:11,400
Speaker 1: when gibbs car was found, his keys were tucked behind

1025
01:04:11,800 --> 01:04:18,240
Speaker 1: his um advisor. Yeah sunvisor, so was making that motion

1026
01:04:18,400 --> 01:04:22,840
Speaker 1: of moving the sununum. So it's possible that if somebody

1027
01:04:22,920 --> 01:04:25,919
Speaker 1: had placed an aerosol can under a pedal, that it's

1028
01:04:26,000 --> 01:04:29,040
Speaker 1: not such a problem that it was not there when

1029
01:04:29,080 --> 01:04:31,800
Speaker 1: the police searched the car, because it could have been removed. Yeah,

1030
01:04:31,880 --> 01:04:34,360
Speaker 1: but just imagine that you get in the car, he's

1031
01:04:34,360 --> 01:04:40,600
Speaker 1: stepping the gas and it's sound and split unker that

1032
01:04:40,760 --> 01:04:47,680
Speaker 1: made funny noises. His car was Yeah. And as far

1033
01:04:47,720 --> 01:04:49,720
Speaker 1: as getting sprayed in the face by somebody, well I

1034
01:04:49,800 --> 01:04:51,520
Speaker 1: know what would have happened. Then they would have they

1035
01:04:51,520 --> 01:04:53,400
Speaker 1: would have their last dime. I was crawled over to

1036
01:04:53,480 --> 01:04:56,400
Speaker 1: the muck and scrawled the name of their their murderer

1037
01:04:56,440 --> 01:05:02,200
Speaker 1: in the muck. That's what always happens. Another suggestion is

1038
01:05:02,440 --> 01:05:04,919
Speaker 1: that it could have been a small capsule placed under

1039
01:05:04,960 --> 01:05:07,280
Speaker 1: the pedals, so it would have burst. The capsule that

1040
01:05:07,320 --> 01:05:11,760
Speaker 1: would have been slowly filled the car with noxious fumes

1041
01:05:11,800 --> 01:05:15,640
Speaker 1: and it would have poisoned them that way. Or even better,

1042
01:05:16,320 --> 01:05:18,680
Speaker 1: it could have been dry ice placed in the back

1043
01:05:18,720 --> 01:05:22,160
Speaker 1: of his car. And I think I like this theory

1044
01:05:22,200 --> 01:05:24,920
Speaker 1: because I think acute illness does fit with a lot

1045
01:05:25,000 --> 01:05:29,800
Speaker 1: of the facts of the story, discounting even that they

1046
01:05:29,920 --> 01:05:34,600
Speaker 1: looked maybe ill when they left. Um. So here's my

1047
01:05:35,080 --> 01:05:39,320
Speaker 1: initial problem with all of these gases released in the car.

1048
01:05:41,000 --> 01:05:46,000
Speaker 1: It's New Year's Day in Australia, which means it's high summer.

1049
01:05:47,440 --> 01:05:50,360
Speaker 1: The windows are not going to be rolled up in

1050
01:05:50,440 --> 01:05:53,240
Speaker 1: the heat or on. The windows are probably going to

1051
01:05:53,360 --> 01:05:56,400
Speaker 1: be down because it's warm. But it's still like four

1052
01:05:56,480 --> 01:05:58,160
Speaker 1: or five in the morning, so it's probably it was

1053
01:05:58,200 --> 01:06:00,840
Speaker 1: probably as cool. I just understanding it was kind of

1054
01:06:01,000 --> 01:06:04,280
Speaker 1: cool out there. That was my understanding to Okay, I'm

1055
01:06:04,280 --> 01:06:06,640
Speaker 1: just thinking of like, well, it's high summer. I will

1056
01:06:06,880 --> 01:06:08,320
Speaker 1: you know, even if I have to get my car

1057
01:06:08,400 --> 01:06:11,120
Speaker 1: at six am, I I end up cracking the window

1058
01:06:11,120 --> 01:06:14,040
Speaker 1: because it's warm in the car because it's been shut

1059
01:06:14,200 --> 01:06:16,160
Speaker 1: up for a couple of hours while it's still hot.

1060
01:06:16,200 --> 01:06:17,760
Speaker 1: Because if he got at the part, he got to

1061
01:06:17,800 --> 01:06:20,160
Speaker 1: the party went nine o'clock, but he's still going to

1062
01:06:20,200 --> 01:06:22,480
Speaker 1: be stuffy. Yeah, but if the windows were only cracked,

1063
01:06:22,800 --> 01:06:25,280
Speaker 1: not all the way down, it could still if it

1064
01:06:25,320 --> 01:06:29,000
Speaker 1: were coats into enough talks in that's true. I'll give

1065
01:06:29,040 --> 01:06:34,560
Speaker 1: you that soles as I was talking about earlier. So

1066
01:06:34,800 --> 01:06:39,560
Speaker 1: he in the palace. You guys are the worst. He

1067
01:06:40,480 --> 01:06:45,440
Speaker 1: happened to be parked kind of where they found gibbs

1068
01:06:45,560 --> 01:06:50,480
Speaker 1: car when Gibb and Margaret pulled up, so he's actually

1069
01:06:50,520 --> 01:06:53,320
Speaker 1: an eyewitnessed to some of their last moments. It was

1070
01:06:53,400 --> 01:06:58,640
Speaker 1: likely around four I would say probably around four am,

1071
01:06:59,040 --> 01:07:02,640
Speaker 1: maybe closer to five. He had just parked his car.

1072
01:07:02,760 --> 01:07:04,760
Speaker 1: He was going to go for a walk, early morning

1073
01:07:04,800 --> 01:07:07,240
Speaker 1: walk because I guess people are crazy like that sometimes.

1074
01:07:08,160 --> 01:07:11,480
Speaker 1: And he said that a car pulled alongside it, alongside

1075
01:07:11,560 --> 01:07:13,920
Speaker 1: him or up close to him. It was Gibbs car,

1076
01:07:14,120 --> 01:07:16,440
Speaker 1: and that there was a woman in it who he

1077
01:07:16,480 --> 01:07:19,360
Speaker 1: couldn't see. He said that he had the impression that

1078
01:07:19,480 --> 01:07:22,520
Speaker 1: the driver was about to speak to him but didn't,

1079
01:07:23,000 --> 01:07:26,200
Speaker 1: and he also said that the driver looked pale, but

1080
01:07:26,360 --> 01:07:29,640
Speaker 1: he thought maybe he was just drunk, which is fair. Yeah. Yeah,

1081
01:07:29,840 --> 01:07:32,400
Speaker 1: So Silis went out for the walk and returned to

1082
01:07:32,520 --> 01:07:34,800
Speaker 1: his car about an hour later, and he noticed that

1083
01:07:34,880 --> 01:07:37,840
Speaker 1: actually the car had been moved reparked, which is a

1084
01:07:37,880 --> 01:07:41,960
Speaker 1: bit odd and fair car Gibbs car, Yeah, had been reparked.

1085
01:07:42,560 --> 01:07:48,880
Speaker 1: But Silas had only one hand, so he couldn't Yeah,

1086
01:07:48,920 --> 01:07:51,919
Speaker 1: so he couldn't turn his car around, so he did

1087
01:07:52,000 --> 01:07:54,560
Speaker 1: this little loop which is the path that the boys

1088
01:07:54,600 --> 01:07:57,520
Speaker 1: were walking, and that's when he saw the guy dart across.

1089
01:07:58,360 --> 01:08:00,520
Speaker 1: It wasn't the same path, but it was that it

1090
01:08:00,640 --> 01:08:04,920
Speaker 1: was the car track, not the footpath, because the footpath

1091
01:08:05,400 --> 01:08:09,760
Speaker 1: crosses the road and the road goes across the bridge. Yeah, sorry,

1092
01:08:09,840 --> 01:08:14,360
Speaker 1: that's no, it's it's a golf course path. Yeah, but

1093
01:08:14,440 --> 01:08:16,720
Speaker 1: it's it's not for driving your car down. But he

1094
01:08:16,840 --> 01:08:18,680
Speaker 1: did drive his car down it. Oh he did, yes,

1095
01:08:18,720 --> 01:08:20,600
Speaker 1: because he couldn't get turned around. He was parked on

1096
01:08:20,680 --> 01:08:22,320
Speaker 1: it and he couldn't get turned around, so he took

1097
01:08:22,360 --> 01:08:25,720
Speaker 1: the Okay, I totally missing truth that I thought he

1098
01:08:25,840 --> 01:08:29,240
Speaker 1: went made a loop through a different route. There's a

1099
01:08:29,400 --> 01:08:32,719
Speaker 1: map that describes it pretty well, and I remember looking

1100
01:08:32,760 --> 01:08:35,519
Speaker 1: at it. I, just as I always do, mixed up

1101
01:08:35,520 --> 01:08:38,400
Speaker 1: a map. Fair totally fair anyway, that's that's when he

1102
01:08:38,479 --> 01:08:43,439
Speaker 1: saw the aforementioned blondie haired band, yellow blondie haired man.

1103
01:08:44,280 --> 01:08:47,880
Speaker 1: There certainly some oddities here. Gibb was a scientist, and

1104
01:08:47,960 --> 01:08:49,960
Speaker 1: many people believed, as we said, he could have been

1105
01:08:50,000 --> 01:08:53,599
Speaker 1: target for assassination. Aerosol poisoning would have been a fairly

1106
01:08:53,680 --> 01:08:57,720
Speaker 1: clean way to assassinate somebody. It seems the onset of

1107
01:08:57,800 --> 01:09:01,720
Speaker 1: whatever happened was pretty acute. Vomit and poop everywhere. You know,

1108
01:09:01,880 --> 01:09:07,200
Speaker 1: gibbs body, the stripping down of their clothes. I also

1109
01:09:07,320 --> 01:09:10,040
Speaker 1: have some problems with the lover's lane theory in general,

1110
01:09:10,640 --> 01:09:13,320
Speaker 1: that they would go out into the forest to have

1111
01:09:13,479 --> 01:09:15,439
Speaker 1: their liaison. Why not just park your car in a

1112
01:09:15,479 --> 01:09:20,519
Speaker 1: secluded area in the Yeah, that evidently is one of

1113
01:09:20,560 --> 01:09:23,400
Speaker 1: the reasons that GiB had that piece of carpet. Yeah,

1114
01:09:24,240 --> 01:09:28,880
Speaker 1: is carpet. It's she could put the carpet down on

1115
01:09:28,960 --> 01:09:32,640
Speaker 1: the ground and then sit on the carpet and not

1116
01:09:33,160 --> 01:09:39,439
Speaker 1: get dirty from touching the carpet, right, but she wouldn't

1117
01:09:39,439 --> 01:09:42,200
Speaker 1: get muddy. How's that, Joe, Yeah, that sounds good. They

1118
01:09:42,240 --> 01:09:45,800
Speaker 1: did pick kind of a scuggy spot that they did. Yeah,

1119
01:09:46,120 --> 01:09:50,880
Speaker 1: So I don't know, I have problems with that, just

1120
01:09:51,040 --> 01:09:54,160
Speaker 1: in general. The whole Lover's Lane thing, it looks it does,

1121
01:09:54,240 --> 01:09:56,639
Speaker 1: truly to me, look like two people who got really

1122
01:09:56,720 --> 01:10:04,000
Speaker 1: sick and started running to have their sickness wherever. Additionally,

1123
01:10:04,080 --> 01:10:06,800
Speaker 1: Margaret being found forty five ft away from Gibb that's

1124
01:10:06,800 --> 01:10:09,880
Speaker 1: odd to me. And the corner did place her time

1125
01:10:09,920 --> 01:10:13,720
Speaker 1: of death two hours after his. Eventually he did. They

1126
01:10:13,760 --> 01:10:15,519
Speaker 1: initially thought that they had died at the same time,

1127
01:10:15,600 --> 01:10:18,000
Speaker 1: but then it was found that he died at five

1128
01:10:18,080 --> 01:10:22,759
Speaker 1: am and she died at seven a m ish. So poison,

1129
01:10:23,120 --> 01:10:26,000
Speaker 1: I don't know, it metabolizes differently in your body. It

1130
01:10:26,040 --> 01:10:32,600
Speaker 1: could explain why they died at different times. Yeah, if

1131
01:10:32,640 --> 01:10:34,599
Speaker 1: it were under his seat, he would have gotten most

1132
01:10:34,680 --> 01:10:35,920
Speaker 1: of it and she would have gotten some of it.

1133
01:10:36,280 --> 01:10:38,840
Speaker 1: I don't know. Disoriented, She could have been disoriented. That's

1134
01:10:38,840 --> 01:10:41,280
Speaker 1: why she had his underwear that far away. She's trying

1135
01:10:41,320 --> 01:10:43,040
Speaker 1: to pull her underwear up and then just fell over

1136
01:10:43,160 --> 01:10:46,400
Speaker 1: and died. I don't know, it's a It does seem

1137
01:10:46,640 --> 01:10:49,559
Speaker 1: to me that they just were really sick for whatever reason.

1138
01:10:50,880 --> 01:10:52,880
Speaker 1: There's there's stuff about the fact that they were at

1139
01:10:52,920 --> 01:10:56,240
Speaker 1: the river bank. Yeah, and that's where the trail of

1140
01:10:56,400 --> 01:11:01,360
Speaker 1: feces begins. So but I don't I don't know that

1141
01:11:01,520 --> 01:11:04,240
Speaker 1: at the river bank, on a muddy river bank is

1142
01:11:04,320 --> 01:11:08,840
Speaker 1: where I would go to have a nighttime affair. Yeah,

1143
01:11:08,880 --> 01:11:11,960
Speaker 1: I don't think that's where the mucky Yeah not not

1144
01:11:12,200 --> 01:11:16,879
Speaker 1: not where I would consider optical romance. Then again, romance

1145
01:11:17,040 --> 01:11:21,080
Speaker 1: probably wasn't really involved in this. Yeah, but I'm a

1146
01:11:21,080 --> 01:11:24,559
Speaker 1: little surprised that Dr Bogolis, at least it was ignorant

1147
01:11:24,760 --> 01:11:27,280
Speaker 1: of this this thing. Like, for example, people think sex

1148
01:11:27,320 --> 01:11:33,000
Speaker 1: on the beach is really romantic, bad idea because the

1149
01:11:33,280 --> 01:11:36,080
Speaker 1: kind of germs and stuff that exists and toxins that

1150
01:11:36,160 --> 01:11:39,320
Speaker 1: exists in sand on beaches, and I'm sure it's the

1151
01:11:39,360 --> 01:11:41,960
Speaker 1: same for this river are things that you really don't

1152
01:11:41,960 --> 01:11:50,439
Speaker 1: want to get inside your body. Yeah, because we were

1153
01:11:50,479 --> 01:11:52,960
Speaker 1: about to go down a really bad trail. Can we

1154
01:11:53,160 --> 01:11:55,320
Speaker 1: just go to the next theory? Oh yeah, no problem.

1155
01:11:55,439 --> 01:11:58,320
Speaker 1: But yeah, there's one last series and this is something

1156
01:11:58,360 --> 01:12:01,639
Speaker 1: that's gaining traction in recent year years, and this theory

1157
01:12:01,880 --> 01:12:06,000
Speaker 1: is that Bogel and Chandler were killed by hydrogen sulfide poisoning.

1158
01:12:06,800 --> 01:12:08,840
Speaker 1: The big proponent of this theory is an Australian guy

1159
01:12:08,880 --> 01:12:11,759
Speaker 1: named Peter Butt who made a documentary on the topic

1160
01:12:12,000 --> 01:12:14,519
Speaker 1: and he also that was aired by the Way in ABC,

1161
01:12:14,760 --> 01:12:17,680
Speaker 1: which is the Australian broadcast channel I think um. And

1162
01:12:17,880 --> 01:12:20,519
Speaker 1: he also wrote a book that talks a little bit

1163
01:12:20,600 --> 01:12:23,679
Speaker 1: more extensively about his theory, and the book is called

1164
01:12:23,720 --> 01:12:27,120
Speaker 1: Who Killed Dr Bogel and Mrs Chandler? And I want

1165
01:12:27,120 --> 01:12:29,679
Speaker 1: to give another shout out to Elena Listener we talked

1166
01:12:29,680 --> 01:12:32,000
Speaker 1: about at the beginning, who suggested this episode, and she

1167
01:12:32,280 --> 01:12:34,280
Speaker 1: was kind enough to send us a copy of the book.

1168
01:12:34,560 --> 01:12:37,920
Speaker 1: Was really awesome because yeah, we all read. Steve was like,

1169
01:12:38,240 --> 01:12:40,800
Speaker 1: everybody read this, Yeah it was. It was one of

1170
01:12:40,880 --> 01:12:45,000
Speaker 1: my first actual homework assignments for everybody. A real book.

1171
01:12:45,160 --> 01:12:47,599
Speaker 1: Here you go, not just check out this silly black

1172
01:12:47,640 --> 01:12:50,720
Speaker 1: background website. Yeah, I know. And and by the way,

1173
01:12:50,840 --> 01:12:53,760
Speaker 1: I don't know who's responsible, but sorry Elena for the

1174
01:12:53,840 --> 01:13:04,320
Speaker 1: chocolate fingerprints. That was Devin. I'm sure it was Joe. Okay, fine.

1175
01:13:05,439 --> 01:13:07,760
Speaker 1: The spot on the river where they were found is

1176
01:13:07,800 --> 01:13:10,840
Speaker 1: surrounded by mangrove trees. Well that's it. There you go,

1177
01:13:11,520 --> 01:13:15,519
Speaker 1: Denver mangrove trees. They might have been CAJB spies. I

1178
01:13:15,560 --> 01:13:19,240
Speaker 1: don't know, but it happens that mangrove trees actually do

1179
01:13:19,640 --> 01:13:23,680
Speaker 1: emit hydrogen sulfide. It's in According to experts, it's theoretically

1180
01:13:23,760 --> 01:13:26,000
Speaker 1: possible to be gas to death in a mangrove swamp.

1181
01:13:26,360 --> 01:13:30,479
Speaker 1: It's really unlikely, but if if air conditions are just right.

1182
01:13:30,560 --> 01:13:34,680
Speaker 1: I there, the air is totally stagnant, no wind, and

1183
01:13:34,840 --> 01:13:36,200
Speaker 1: if you were in a low spot in the ground

1184
01:13:36,640 --> 01:13:38,800
Speaker 1: by the time of day actually makes a difference too,

1185
01:13:39,400 --> 01:13:42,760
Speaker 1: then it's theoretically possible to be gassed just by mangroves.

1186
01:13:43,720 --> 01:13:49,080
Speaker 1: Not likely, not likely, but that's a one in axilian chance. Yeah,

1187
01:13:50,120 --> 01:13:54,040
Speaker 1: but there was there was something else that was augmenting

1188
01:13:54,160 --> 01:13:57,840
Speaker 1: the hydrogen sulfide concentration in the area, and then that

1189
01:13:57,960 --> 01:14:01,960
Speaker 1: was pollution. There had in the past ben Tani factory

1190
01:14:02,000 --> 01:14:04,880
Speaker 1: is a chemical company, of Vinegar Gap company. All these

1191
01:14:04,960 --> 01:14:07,719
Speaker 1: guys dump and waste into the river. There was also

1192
01:14:07,760 --> 01:14:09,640
Speaker 1: a sewer super line, which I don't know if the

1193
01:14:09,640 --> 01:14:11,760
Speaker 1: sewer line leaked or not, but they actually laid the

1194
01:14:11,760 --> 01:14:14,599
Speaker 1: super line right down the middle of the river. Yeah,

1195
01:14:15,120 --> 01:14:19,880
Speaker 1: they always do, yeah, yeah uh. And also that this

1196
01:14:20,000 --> 01:14:22,960
Speaker 1: is probably the worst defender, was the Chicago Cornflower and

1197
01:14:23,040 --> 01:14:26,840
Speaker 1: Starch mill, which dumped about twenty million gallons of sulfurous

1198
01:14:26,880 --> 01:14:31,240
Speaker 1: waste into the river every year from until about sixty

1199
01:14:31,320 --> 01:14:34,040
Speaker 1: years later when they closed. So a lot of that

1200
01:14:34,120 --> 01:14:38,960
Speaker 1: stuff accumulated. The sulfurous waste apparently killed bottle plants and fish.

1201
01:14:39,080 --> 01:14:42,440
Speaker 1: It caused a rise in what's called separal phytic bacteria,

1202
01:14:43,200 --> 01:14:45,880
Speaker 1: which I don't know much about bacteria, to be honest

1203
01:14:45,960 --> 01:14:48,439
Speaker 1: with you, but apparently this particularly kind of bacteria they

1204
01:14:48,560 --> 01:14:52,439
Speaker 1: live on dead organic matter, organic matter, and they produce

1205
01:14:52,720 --> 01:14:56,400
Speaker 1: hydrogen sulfide. Yeah. That may be the kind of stuff

1206
01:14:56,400 --> 01:14:58,880
Speaker 1: where you see a pond that it is full of

1207
01:14:59,000 --> 01:15:02,080
Speaker 1: algae and everything dies, and then the algae dies and

1208
01:15:02,160 --> 01:15:04,599
Speaker 1: then nothing ever grows in it again because the follow

1209
01:15:04,720 --> 01:15:07,240
Speaker 1: that bacteria, Because we've all seen those kind of dead ponds.

1210
01:15:07,439 --> 01:15:11,320
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I know, yeah. And also making matters even worse,

1211
01:15:11,560 --> 01:15:15,479
Speaker 1: is they constructed a weird downstream from the site. Yeah,

1212
01:15:15,640 --> 01:15:17,759
Speaker 1: it's a weir is a low dam. And the idea

1213
01:15:17,760 --> 01:15:19,599
Speaker 1: of a weird is that it's low enough that water

1214
01:15:19,680 --> 01:15:22,120
Speaker 1: can still flow over the top of it, but it

1215
01:15:22,200 --> 01:15:24,720
Speaker 1: still dams it up and creates like a pond or

1216
01:15:24,800 --> 01:15:28,200
Speaker 1: pool behind. Problem with the weir is all the stuff

1217
01:15:28,280 --> 01:15:31,480
Speaker 1: that's flowing downstream can most of it's like just accumulating,

1218
01:15:31,479 --> 01:15:34,760
Speaker 1: it's not just flowing out to sea. And actually this river,

1219
01:15:35,520 --> 01:15:38,040
Speaker 1: the river, the Lancomb River, code river that we're talking about,

1220
01:15:38,280 --> 01:15:40,880
Speaker 1: is actually a tributary of a larger river, so it's

1221
01:15:40,920 --> 01:15:43,960
Speaker 1: not flowing directly in the sea, of course, but but anyway,

1222
01:15:44,040 --> 01:15:47,559
Speaker 1: so and also title action can't come up like tidle

1223
01:15:48,920 --> 01:15:52,640
Speaker 1: water from downstream can't be shoved up and sort of

1224
01:15:52,880 --> 01:15:55,599
Speaker 1: flush it out and back downstream. None of that's going

1225
01:15:55,640 --> 01:15:58,120
Speaker 1: on because the weird is blocking the path because all

1226
01:15:58,160 --> 01:16:00,679
Speaker 1: of this stuff that that's getting dumped in the rivers

1227
01:16:01,040 --> 01:16:04,200
Speaker 1: acting like a sediment and just building up. Yeah, pretty much.

1228
01:16:04,960 --> 01:16:07,760
Speaker 1: So that's the theoretically as possible that there could be

1229
01:16:08,040 --> 01:16:13,320
Speaker 1: you know, that can actually be eruptions of hydrogen sulfide yeah, bubbles,

1230
01:16:13,680 --> 01:16:15,680
Speaker 1: bubbles in the mud go burst and then next thing

1231
01:16:15,720 --> 01:16:18,000
Speaker 1: you know, a big cloud of hydrogen sulfide comes out.

1232
01:16:18,400 --> 01:16:20,879
Speaker 1: And residents of the area had been complaining for decades

1233
01:16:20,880 --> 01:16:24,040
Speaker 1: about a really bad rotten egg smell in the area,

1234
01:16:24,080 --> 01:16:29,519
Speaker 1: in the neighborhood, and well, that's what hydrogen sulfide smells like. Cool. Yeah,

1235
01:16:30,240 --> 01:16:35,920
Speaker 1: that stinks. Yeah, yeah, at a level of one for you. Sorry,

1236
01:16:38,080 --> 01:16:43,080
Speaker 1: yeah that was lamb Oh, come on, I was trying. No,

1237
01:16:43,720 --> 01:16:46,439
Speaker 1: it was a high quality attempted humor. So one part

1238
01:16:46,479 --> 01:16:49,360
Speaker 1: per million, you'll notice it sort of notice a bad

1239
01:16:49,439 --> 01:16:56,719
Speaker 1: smell at about thirty parts pavilion itself sulfide. Yeah, about

1240
01:16:56,800 --> 01:16:59,639
Speaker 1: thirty parts per million and up it smells like rotten

1241
01:16:59,720 --> 01:17:03,360
Speaker 1: egg eggs. And then apparently at fit between fifty and

1242
01:17:03,360 --> 01:17:07,120
Speaker 1: a hundred perch familiar, it smells supposedly kind of sickeningly sweet.

1243
01:17:07,280 --> 01:17:09,840
Speaker 1: And I don't know, I haven't smelled the stuff. I

1244
01:17:10,200 --> 01:17:13,000
Speaker 1: can't say I've ever smelled that concentration, and I'm happy

1245
01:17:13,040 --> 01:17:15,559
Speaker 1: about that. I don't know if I've ever whipped this stuff.

1246
01:17:15,640 --> 01:17:18,320
Speaker 1: Tell you the truth, over a hundred parts familiar and

1247
01:17:18,400 --> 01:17:21,800
Speaker 1: it paralyzes your olfactory nerve almost instantly, so you can't

1248
01:17:21,800 --> 01:17:24,080
Speaker 1: smell it, so you can't smell it, and it's invisible

1249
01:17:24,120 --> 01:17:26,840
Speaker 1: to you. Yeah, you just wouldn't notice it. You just

1250
01:17:26,960 --> 01:17:31,160
Speaker 1: knows yourself feeling sick and puking and having breathlessness, Yeah,

1251
01:17:31,560 --> 01:17:33,360
Speaker 1: and you'd go, gee, I wonder what's going on with this?

1252
01:17:33,720 --> 01:17:36,400
Speaker 1: You know, and then you just uh, you know, not

1253
01:17:36,520 --> 01:17:39,600
Speaker 1: feeling so hot. Yeah, I'm puking. Okay, Well, so what

1254
01:17:39,880 --> 01:17:43,400
Speaker 1: you would probably just die, right, I mean, unless you

1255
01:17:43,520 --> 01:17:45,960
Speaker 1: left the area, unless you're lucky enough to leave the area. Yeah,

1256
01:17:46,120 --> 01:17:48,840
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, I don't know. I mean if I

1257
01:17:48,920 --> 01:17:50,840
Speaker 1: walked into a room, for example, and I started getting

1258
01:17:50,840 --> 01:17:56,559
Speaker 1: breathless and puking, I probably would walk out of the room. Yeah, hopefully, Yeah, Yeah,

1259
01:17:56,960 --> 01:17:58,960
Speaker 1: but yeah, I never know. I mean, they're going to

1260
01:17:59,040 --> 01:18:00,960
Speaker 1: be auction in. Deprived brain is not gonna be functioning

1261
01:18:01,000 --> 01:18:04,519
Speaker 1: on a dent, so who knows. I'm told that at

1262
01:18:04,640 --> 01:18:08,880
Speaker 1: two hundred parts per million, respiratory failure, respiratory failure occurs

1263
01:18:08,960 --> 01:18:12,840
Speaker 1: within seconds, and at a thousand parts per million, which

1264
01:18:13,000 --> 01:18:15,760
Speaker 1: we're not even close to that, but a single breath

1265
01:18:15,880 --> 01:18:20,040
Speaker 1: can cause cardiac arrest just like that. So the levels

1266
01:18:20,080 --> 01:18:22,519
Speaker 1: here were probably in the in the hundred plus range

1267
01:18:22,600 --> 01:18:25,120
Speaker 1: at the river, but they weren't measured, so nobody knows

1268
01:18:25,160 --> 01:18:29,840
Speaker 1: exactly sure. It's it's kind of anecdotal. Yeah, it appears

1269
01:18:29,960 --> 01:18:32,840
Speaker 1: that a hundred parts per million was not uncommon in

1270
01:18:32,880 --> 01:18:37,400
Speaker 1: the area on still windless days. Um. And because it's

1271
01:18:37,400 --> 01:18:39,840
Speaker 1: heavier than air, it tends to pool and hollows and

1272
01:18:39,920 --> 01:18:42,599
Speaker 1: low spots like down right over the river and stuff

1273
01:18:42,640 --> 01:18:45,719
Speaker 1: like that, you know, like you know, down the riverbed.

1274
01:18:46,240 --> 01:18:47,639
Speaker 1: And so I would see at the low points along

1275
01:18:47,680 --> 01:18:51,960
Speaker 1: the bank and to anybody that's breathing it in, when

1276
01:18:52,000 --> 01:18:54,519
Speaker 1: it reaches those concentrations of a plus a hundred percent

1277
01:18:54,680 --> 01:18:58,120
Speaker 1: parts per million, you don't know this there. You just

1278
01:18:58,200 --> 01:19:00,320
Speaker 1: notice all of a sudden you're breathless, you're not yes,

1279
01:19:01,160 --> 01:19:05,040
Speaker 1: and you get confused. You just don't make good choices

1280
01:19:05,680 --> 01:19:07,720
Speaker 1: and you wind up, you know when I mean, these

1281
01:19:07,760 --> 01:19:10,679
Speaker 1: people probably could have saved themselves. I buy the theory.

1282
01:19:10,720 --> 01:19:12,960
Speaker 1: I think it's the most So you're you're in. You're

1283
01:19:13,000 --> 01:19:16,559
Speaker 1: in for this one. Well this is my number two one.

1284
01:19:17,000 --> 01:19:19,479
Speaker 1: Oh well, let's keep going on this one before you

1285
01:19:19,560 --> 01:19:21,640
Speaker 1: go from you because I think I know what your

1286
01:19:21,720 --> 01:19:26,400
Speaker 1: number is going to be. Of course. Okay, So so yeah,

1287
01:19:26,400 --> 01:19:28,519
Speaker 1: they could have saved themselves. I mean, obviously, if their

1288
01:19:28,560 --> 01:19:31,040
Speaker 1: brains have been functioning at they could have just like

1289
01:19:31,240 --> 01:19:33,880
Speaker 1: stood up. Just standing up might have done it, might

1290
01:19:33,920 --> 01:19:36,600
Speaker 1: have done the trick ranging themselves up that high, and

1291
01:19:36,720 --> 01:19:40,320
Speaker 1: certainly walking up the river bank getting away would probably

1292
01:19:40,360 --> 01:19:43,880
Speaker 1: have done a lot. Yeah, that's fair. I think if

1293
01:19:43,920 --> 01:19:45,920
Speaker 1: you add in that they may have been drunk or

1294
01:19:45,960 --> 01:19:50,320
Speaker 1: otherwise inebriated, I buy it a little more. But they

1295
01:19:50,320 --> 01:19:53,800
Speaker 1: were horizontal. Do you have the problem of him dying

1296
01:19:53,880 --> 01:19:56,640
Speaker 1: so much faster than her, and also her making it

1297
01:19:56,880 --> 01:19:59,880
Speaker 1: forty five ft away from him. That's not a small

1298
01:20:00,000 --> 01:20:02,880
Speaker 1: a distance. It's not a huge distance, but it's not

1299
01:20:03,920 --> 01:20:07,800
Speaker 1: like right there. And then I guess none of these

1300
01:20:07,880 --> 01:20:10,559
Speaker 1: theories really addressed the fact that they're all covered up.

1301
01:20:10,640 --> 01:20:13,880
Speaker 1: But you know, well, but let me let me and

1302
01:20:14,520 --> 01:20:17,200
Speaker 1: I'm trying to figure out how to not say this

1303
01:20:17,880 --> 01:20:22,640
Speaker 1: too graphically. But if they are in the act and

1304
01:20:22,960 --> 01:20:27,920
Speaker 1: he is excited, he's probably going to be taking very

1305
01:20:28,080 --> 01:20:32,760
Speaker 1: deep breasts and breathing in quite rapidly, where if she

1306
01:20:33,000 --> 01:20:39,240
Speaker 1: is not as excited, she's breathing more normally. He may

1307
01:20:39,400 --> 01:20:42,120
Speaker 1: have been taking more of it in, and as they

1308
01:20:42,200 --> 01:20:44,800
Speaker 1: try to scramble away, he can't make it, which is

1309
01:20:44,840 --> 01:20:48,360
Speaker 1: why she gets farther away and doesn't die as quickly.

1310
01:20:48,720 --> 01:20:51,200
Speaker 1: Or the other thing is possibly he was on the

1311
01:20:51,240 --> 01:20:55,160
Speaker 1: bottom when she was on the top. I mean, I mean,

1312
01:20:55,560 --> 01:20:58,000
Speaker 1: I'm just thinking of it in terms of respiration. Is

1313
01:20:58,000 --> 01:21:00,800
Speaker 1: where I was taking that is that he may have

1314
01:21:00,920 --> 01:21:05,600
Speaker 1: been very excited and rapidly breathing and getting more of it.

1315
01:21:05,960 --> 01:21:07,479
Speaker 1: I mean, if we're going to say this is what

1316
01:21:07,640 --> 01:21:11,000
Speaker 1: it is, and I'm I'm not on this theory, well,

1317
01:21:11,240 --> 01:21:14,760
Speaker 1: but yeah, it's got his weirdness is number one being

1318
01:21:16,600 --> 01:21:19,599
Speaker 1: at least a couple more people should have died over

1319
01:21:19,680 --> 01:21:24,160
Speaker 1: the years by this river. Additionally, the people who found,

1320
01:21:24,240 --> 01:21:27,000
Speaker 1: you know, not so long after or hay Less, who

1321
01:21:27,080 --> 01:21:30,599
Speaker 1: was in that same area the time, should have said,

1322
01:21:30,640 --> 01:21:34,080
Speaker 1: oh it was really stinky, or oh I was feeling

1323
01:21:34,080 --> 01:21:37,040
Speaker 1: a little ill myself. He didn't have any one thing

1324
01:21:37,200 --> 01:21:41,280
Speaker 1: to know about its hydrogen sulfide. Correct. One of the

1325
01:21:41,400 --> 01:21:46,200
Speaker 1: things that breaks it down super fast is sunlight. Well,

1326
01:21:46,840 --> 01:21:50,360
Speaker 1: so if they're all there, if the boys are there

1327
01:21:50,400 --> 01:21:54,960
Speaker 1: at nine, Chalice is there around the same time, but

1328
01:21:55,200 --> 01:21:57,920
Speaker 1: he's walking around. He was there at the same time, right,

1329
01:21:58,240 --> 01:21:59,840
Speaker 1: He was there at the same time as Bogol and

1330
01:22:00,000 --> 01:22:02,880
Speaker 1: handler right, But he's not on the river bank. Sure,

1331
01:22:03,360 --> 01:22:06,120
Speaker 1: he's not that far away though, Oh yeah, I guess

1332
01:22:06,200 --> 01:22:08,400
Speaker 1: that's true. If it's five in the morning, you walk

1333
01:22:08,479 --> 01:22:10,720
Speaker 1: the path, there's not sun Yeah, no, I can see

1334
01:22:10,720 --> 01:22:13,040
Speaker 1: where the sunshine issue. Okay, I see where the problem

1335
01:22:13,160 --> 01:22:16,240
Speaker 1: is with that. But he's also not on the river bank, right.

1336
01:22:16,320 --> 01:22:20,840
Speaker 1: But if it's in that high concentration down below, at

1337
01:22:20,880 --> 01:22:24,160
Speaker 1: the very least, he's going to say it was really strong, odor,

1338
01:22:25,280 --> 01:22:28,439
Speaker 1: I really didn't feel okay or something. If it was

1339
01:22:28,560 --> 01:22:32,439
Speaker 1: so strong that it could literally kill people not fifty

1340
01:22:32,479 --> 01:22:35,360
Speaker 1: ft down the bank, he's gonna feel some effects or

1341
01:22:35,360 --> 01:22:38,679
Speaker 1: atly smell something or mentioned something about that, you would think.

1342
01:22:39,200 --> 01:22:41,760
Speaker 1: But but he may not have mentioned it because people

1343
01:22:41,800 --> 01:22:44,080
Speaker 1: who lived in that areas I think Joe had talked

1344
01:22:44,120 --> 01:22:48,360
Speaker 1: about before, had been complaining about this for years. So

1345
01:22:48,479 --> 01:22:51,000
Speaker 1: it just may have been this part of the river stinks.

1346
01:22:51,360 --> 01:22:55,040
Speaker 1: Maybe well also talking about it, because it just everybody

1347
01:22:55,120 --> 01:22:58,639
Speaker 1: knows this river stinks. You never know too, because there's

1348
01:22:58,680 --> 01:23:01,360
Speaker 1: a medical condition nosing as man, which means that you

1349
01:23:01,400 --> 01:23:04,720
Speaker 1: can't smell, you can't detect odors, and it's actually more

1350
01:23:04,760 --> 01:23:11,120
Speaker 1: common than people realize. And so maybe that's just yeah,

1351
01:23:11,560 --> 01:23:15,479
Speaker 1: so that's and that's you know, entirely within But but now,

1352
01:23:15,520 --> 01:23:17,519
Speaker 1: I mean, there were other people, like it wasn't it

1353
01:23:17,560 --> 01:23:19,240
Speaker 1: the case that some of the reporters that went down

1354
01:23:19,280 --> 01:23:22,439
Speaker 1: and checked out the crime scene were reported are really

1355
01:23:22,479 --> 01:23:25,240
Speaker 1: disgusting odor? Yeah they did. Of course, that could have

1356
01:23:25,280 --> 01:23:28,439
Speaker 1: been all the feces too. I don't know, Yeah, that

1357
01:23:28,640 --> 01:23:32,400
Speaker 1: probably wasn't Probably probably didn't help matters. Huh, all the

1358
01:23:32,439 --> 01:23:37,799
Speaker 1: puk and feces. Yeah, well you you, Joe. I hesitate

1359
01:23:37,920 --> 01:23:39,720
Speaker 1: to give you the rains for this one, but you

1360
01:23:39,840 --> 01:23:42,600
Speaker 1: had one more theory. Oh no, no, no, I'm not

1361
01:23:42,640 --> 01:23:44,519
Speaker 1: gonna I'm not gonna bring it up. You guys can't

1362
01:23:44,560 --> 01:23:50,479
Speaker 1: handle the truth. Well, goodness, we don't have to hear

1363
01:23:50,520 --> 01:23:54,400
Speaker 1: it that. Yeah, but anyway, I guess really wouldn't know.

1364
01:23:54,439 --> 01:23:56,559
Speaker 1: If you can learn anything from this is that these

1365
01:23:56,560 --> 01:23:59,240
Speaker 1: guys should have gotten the motel. Yeah, that lie certainly

1366
01:23:59,240 --> 01:24:01,960
Speaker 1: would have been a lot too. Yeah, next time, get

1367
01:24:02,000 --> 01:24:05,600
Speaker 1: a freaking room. Okay, yeah, yeah, that's the moral of

1368
01:24:05,640 --> 01:24:10,439
Speaker 1: the story. Well, before we wrap this up, Joe, you

1369
01:24:10,760 --> 01:24:14,960
Speaker 1: it sounds like you're mostly behind the hydrogen sulfide theory

1370
01:24:15,080 --> 01:24:18,479
Speaker 1: for the most part. That's that's you that's your number

1371
01:24:18,520 --> 01:24:21,559
Speaker 1: one candidate. Yeah. I mean, when you set aside all

1372
01:24:21,600 --> 01:24:25,639
Speaker 1: the all the lurid, ludicrous murder theories, I don't see

1373
01:24:25,640 --> 01:24:27,840
Speaker 1: anybody that had a strong motive to kill these people.

1374
01:24:28,840 --> 01:24:33,720
Speaker 1: And the idea of making up a really exotic aerosol

1375
01:24:33,920 --> 01:24:36,360
Speaker 1: that can kill them and not leave any any anything

1376
01:24:36,360 --> 01:24:38,160
Speaker 1: in their tissues and stuff like that, Well, how many

1377
01:24:38,200 --> 01:24:41,519
Speaker 1: people have that capability? Yeah, and so this is the

1378
01:24:41,600 --> 01:24:44,280
Speaker 1: only one that really, you know, actually makes any sense

1379
01:24:44,320 --> 01:24:45,960
Speaker 1: at all, even though I still have a problem with it.

1380
01:24:46,040 --> 01:24:47,840
Speaker 1: Like I said, more people should have been dying along

1381
01:24:47,920 --> 01:24:51,439
Speaker 1: that river. Yeah, Yeah, that's what I don't get. Yeah,

1382
01:24:51,640 --> 01:24:55,200
Speaker 1: I think I leaned slightly towards poisoning of some kind,

1383
01:24:55,360 --> 01:24:58,200
Speaker 1: just because I do think that there's a strong anecdotal

1384
01:24:58,240 --> 01:25:02,160
Speaker 1: evidence at least for them being sick upon exit of

1385
01:25:02,320 --> 01:25:06,280
Speaker 1: the car. I think that seems to me. I don't know.

1386
01:25:06,439 --> 01:25:08,960
Speaker 1: Maybe they parked next to Scheila's, realized that he was there,

1387
01:25:09,040 --> 01:25:11,280
Speaker 1: so they parked the car. They parked it across the

1388
01:25:11,320 --> 01:25:13,880
Speaker 1: street from him. So they were going out, They were

1389
01:25:13,920 --> 01:25:16,639
Speaker 1: about to go to town on each other, and then

1390
01:25:16,760 --> 01:25:19,639
Speaker 1: oh crap, I feel sick, better run out and there

1391
01:25:19,920 --> 01:25:22,840
Speaker 1: I don't know again, though there are a lot of

1392
01:25:22,920 --> 01:25:27,280
Speaker 1: unanswered questions. Stuff actually not just occurs to me that

1393
01:25:28,360 --> 01:25:30,960
Speaker 1: you know, what, if somebody gave them a poison, but

1394
01:25:31,120 --> 01:25:34,160
Speaker 1: not really not something intended to kill them, but something

1395
01:25:34,200 --> 01:25:38,080
Speaker 1: which actually had a delatarious effect on their respiratory system,

1396
01:25:38,400 --> 01:25:41,960
Speaker 1: something which actually, you know, in one of the side

1397
01:25:42,000 --> 01:25:45,519
Speaker 1: effects of maybe that somebody gave him a laxative because

1398
01:25:45,680 --> 01:25:48,919
Speaker 1: just for fun, you know, and but maybe this particular

1399
01:25:49,040 --> 01:25:52,559
Speaker 1: drug also a side effect of being bad for your

1400
01:25:52,560 --> 01:25:56,160
Speaker 1: respiratory system. But of course it's not, you know, not

1401
01:25:56,280 --> 01:25:57,800
Speaker 1: typically in the doses you give it, it's not going

1402
01:25:57,840 --> 01:26:00,640
Speaker 1: to affect you that adversely. One of the things that

1403
01:26:01,439 --> 01:26:06,200
Speaker 1: Ruth Nash got investigated for was she also, if I

1404
01:26:06,280 --> 01:26:09,599
Speaker 1: remember correct, she was into the dosh hound scene as well.

1405
01:26:09,880 --> 01:26:14,240
Speaker 1: She loved oxins and she had de worming medication for

1406
01:26:14,360 --> 01:26:18,479
Speaker 1: the dogs that have been prescribed by her vet, which

1407
01:26:19,640 --> 01:26:24,120
Speaker 1: if you've ever accidentally gotten anything like that, it has

1408
01:26:24,400 --> 01:26:28,479
Speaker 1: the effect of a laxative on the human system. And

1409
01:26:28,720 --> 01:26:32,680
Speaker 1: so that happens. These things happen, and they checked her out,

1410
01:26:32,760 --> 01:26:35,519
Speaker 1: they checked all their pills, they checked the bodies for that.

1411
01:26:36,320 --> 01:26:39,400
Speaker 1: So it could have been some kind of derivative like that.

1412
01:26:39,880 --> 01:26:42,320
Speaker 1: I'm not, but I know that that was something that

1413
01:26:42,439 --> 01:26:47,599
Speaker 1: got looked into. I personally, the only one that works

1414
01:26:48,240 --> 01:26:51,360
Speaker 1: is the sulfide, the hydrogen sulfide. But my my issue

1415
01:26:51,400 --> 01:26:53,360
Speaker 1: with it is, as Joe said, why did more people

1416
01:26:53,479 --> 01:26:57,560
Speaker 1: die and over the years in places that are notorious

1417
01:26:57,760 --> 01:27:02,439
Speaker 1: for actually having these eruption is of hydrogen sulfide, there's

1418
01:27:02,560 --> 01:27:06,519
Speaker 1: only been a handful of deaths. It doesn't happen too often.

1419
01:27:06,800 --> 01:27:10,160
Speaker 1: It doesn't happen too often. And I this is the

1420
01:27:10,240 --> 01:27:13,040
Speaker 1: only one that was a double murder from this. If

1421
01:27:13,120 --> 01:27:17,400
Speaker 1: it was this two deaths at the same time, I

1422
01:27:17,600 --> 01:27:20,360
Speaker 1: have an issue with. I don't have a better theory.

1423
01:27:21,320 --> 01:27:23,400
Speaker 1: None of them seem to stand up. This is the

1424
01:27:23,479 --> 01:27:26,080
Speaker 1: only one that seems to have some evidence behind it.

1425
01:27:26,720 --> 01:27:32,240
Speaker 1: But it's just so lucky. The odds of it happening

1426
01:27:32,680 --> 01:27:37,559
Speaker 1: at that time, let's be fair, are so high. Yeah,

1427
01:27:37,640 --> 01:27:40,280
Speaker 1: But I also have the problems with the who who

1428
01:27:40,360 --> 01:27:46,000
Speaker 1: covered their bodies, and because like, two hours is a

1429
01:27:46,120 --> 01:27:48,760
Speaker 1: long time for her to have outlived him. It's one

1430
01:27:48,800 --> 01:27:51,120
Speaker 1: thing if it were forty five minutes and half an hour,

1431
01:27:51,600 --> 01:27:54,599
Speaker 1: even an hour, fine, But for them to be breathing

1432
01:27:54,640 --> 01:27:58,040
Speaker 1: the same toxins in the same quantities. But for her

1433
01:27:58,160 --> 01:28:00,840
Speaker 1: last two whole hours longer than in him. She was

1434
01:28:01,320 --> 01:28:07,040
Speaker 1: five ft away. She may have been just high enough. Yeah,

1435
01:28:07,120 --> 01:28:10,480
Speaker 1: she was unconscious. I don't, but she was in a depression,

1436
01:28:10,760 --> 01:28:14,080
Speaker 1: and which is probably would and if I could be wrong,

1437
01:28:14,200 --> 01:28:16,719
Speaker 1: but I think the drawings looked like she was actually

1438
01:28:16,800 --> 01:28:19,360
Speaker 1: closer to the I mean, it's it's true the pocket

1439
01:28:19,400 --> 01:28:22,439
Speaker 1: could have been more localized to where he was. That's fine,

1440
01:28:22,520 --> 01:28:27,400
Speaker 1: but it does seem weird. Yeah, I don't know where

1441
01:28:27,400 --> 01:28:29,679
Speaker 1: I stand. I don't. I can't pull any of these

1442
01:28:29,840 --> 01:28:33,400
Speaker 1: is my prime I love this theory. Yeah, I'm saying

1443
01:28:33,720 --> 01:28:36,559
Speaker 1: it was the professor in the library with a lead

1444
01:28:36,600 --> 01:28:40,120
Speaker 1: pipe again. Yeah, okay, okay, you can cut that. You

1445
01:28:40,160 --> 01:28:43,160
Speaker 1: can get that one at if. If you have a

1446
01:28:43,479 --> 01:28:46,160
Speaker 1: theory about this that you would like to share with us,

1447
01:28:46,560 --> 01:28:49,200
Speaker 1: you are more than welcome to do that. You can

1448
01:28:49,280 --> 01:28:53,240
Speaker 1: go to our website, which is Thinking Sideways podcast dot com.

1449
01:28:53,920 --> 01:28:56,559
Speaker 1: You can leave a comment on the site. Of course,

1450
01:28:56,600 --> 01:28:59,719
Speaker 1: you'll find some of our research there and the audio

1451
01:28:59,840 --> 01:29:02,040
Speaker 1: for this episode or any of the episodes that we've

1452
01:29:02,120 --> 01:29:05,400
Speaker 1: put out. Most folks are listening to us through some

1453
01:29:05,760 --> 01:29:09,240
Speaker 1: streaming app, whether it be Stitcher or a web app

1454
01:29:09,439 --> 01:29:12,479
Speaker 1: or a mobile app we're on. Most of those were,

1455
01:29:12,520 --> 01:29:16,559
Speaker 1: of course on iTunes, so if you're on iTunes, please

1456
01:29:16,760 --> 01:29:19,960
Speaker 1: do take the time leave us a comment and a rating.

1457
01:29:20,920 --> 01:29:24,240
Speaker 1: We are on Facebook. We have the group and the

1458
01:29:24,479 --> 01:29:29,559
Speaker 1: Facebook page and both. The group is most has been

1459
01:29:30,120 --> 01:29:34,360
Speaker 1: insanely busy lately and it's been fantastic all the stuff

1460
01:29:34,400 --> 01:29:37,439
Speaker 1: that's going on. So that's really really fun. So if

1461
01:29:37,479 --> 01:29:40,280
Speaker 1: you want to get in on that, like the page,

1462
01:29:40,760 --> 01:29:45,360
Speaker 1: joined the group, everybody seems to be enjoying that. Of course,

1463
01:29:45,439 --> 01:29:49,360
Speaker 1: we're on Twitter. It is Thinking Sideways to drop the

1464
01:29:49,439 --> 01:29:52,960
Speaker 1: g on Thinking, you can find us there. We do tweet,

1465
01:29:53,080 --> 01:29:56,200
Speaker 1: we have we have conversations with folks on there as well. Yeah,

1466
01:29:56,320 --> 01:29:58,599
Speaker 1: or well it's a hundred and some odd characters. It's

1467
01:29:58,600 --> 01:30:04,040
Speaker 1: not a big conversation, but uh, and let's see what else.

1468
01:30:04,200 --> 01:30:07,160
Speaker 1: Of course, we've got our email address if you do

1469
01:30:07,479 --> 01:30:09,760
Speaker 1: want to tell us something, you've got thoughts on this

1470
01:30:09,880 --> 01:30:13,240
Speaker 1: story or suggestions for other ones. Eddie and all emails

1471
01:30:13,479 --> 01:30:18,960
Speaker 1: are happily received at Thinking Sideways podcast at gmail dot com.

1472
01:30:19,600 --> 01:30:23,840
Speaker 1: Without saying that having been said, it just Devin looks

1473
01:30:23,880 --> 01:30:27,840
Speaker 1: at me every time do that we're going to roll

1474
01:30:28,000 --> 01:30:30,280
Speaker 1: this one up. Put it in the can, slap a

1475
01:30:30,320 --> 01:30:35,160
Speaker 1: bow on it, and call it done. Yes. Yeah, we've

1476
01:30:35,160 --> 01:30:37,519
Speaker 1: been working on this one for a while and I

1477
01:30:37,920 --> 01:30:40,719
Speaker 1: still don't know what I'm doing with it. I'll stay

1478
01:30:40,720 --> 01:30:47,280
Speaker 1: in hell away from that river. Now. They took the

1479
01:30:47,439 --> 01:30:52,599
Speaker 1: weird out, I think, but it up. Hopefully we're gonna

1480
01:30:52,640 --> 01:30:55,479
Speaker 1: go ahead and well I'm going to call it a night.

1481
01:30:55,520 --> 01:30:58,719
Speaker 1: I don't know about YouTube, so I will talk to forever.

1482
01:30:58,920 --> 01:31:02,920
Speaker 1: But yeah, no, I guess I'll go to everybody. Bye, guys,