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Speaker 1: This program features the individual opinions of the hosts, guests,

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Speaker 1: and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station,

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Speaker 1: it's affiliates, or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to True Crime Tonight. We are on iHeartRadio and

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Speaker 2: we are talking true crime all the time. We have

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Speaker 2: made it all the way to Sunday, November twenty third,

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Speaker 2: and we do indeed have a stacked night of headlines.

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Speaker 2: I'm Courtney Armstrong here gratefully with Body Move in. Stephanie

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Speaker 2: Leidecker is out for the evening, but we are also

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Speaker 2: here with producer Taha and engineer Adam and scientific Sunday.

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Speaker 2: Our beloved forensic expert Joseph Scott Morgan is also unable

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Speaker 2: to join us tonight, but we're in for a super

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Speaker 2: treat because our very own Body Move and will be

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Speaker 2: taking over Crime Lab and teaching us about breakthrough cases

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Speaker 2: in forensic history, what metadata is and how it has

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Speaker 2: identified some notorious killers before we hop into the rest

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Speaker 2: of it Body How was the weekend so far?

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Speaker 3: I just I can't eat enough Keeso this weekend. I'm listen.

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Speaker 3: I'm all about the Keeso. This weekend, I have eaten

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Speaker 3: myself out of house and home. I'm eating right now,

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Speaker 3: like I can't stop on don't own. But other than that, great, how.

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Speaker 2: Was yours good? And listen, I think you got it.

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Speaker 2: It's like a pregame for Thanksgiving.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, but that's I'm getting my stomach ready. I want

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Speaker 3: that turkey and that stuffing and those match tators all

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Speaker 3: I care about.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And because of Taha's controversial take on In and

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Speaker 2: Out last week, it has only really been on my

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Speaker 2: brain like a drug for five days. And so that

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Speaker 2: is what I ate before the show. What'd you get?

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Speaker 2: What'd you get? I got a I got animal fries,

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Speaker 2: so I got extra Crispy fries animal style, and and

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Speaker 2: I got a cheeseburger wrapped in lettuce.

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Speaker 4: To you're pregame in two, I don't want to hear it.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah hard. I like it wrapped in lettuce most

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Speaker 2: of the time. That's how I used to get it.

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Speaker 2: The bread sough soggy. I guess I totally agree. I

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Speaker 2: like it. Buss and Adam, I understand also hit hit

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Speaker 2: in and Out. I did.

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Speaker 5: I did have In and Out but pre show at

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Speaker 5: some point last week, and it was good. I mean,

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Speaker 5: you know, I you know, I can't pretend like I

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Speaker 5: don't do it all the time, So okay, or isn't

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Speaker 5: anything super special?

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Speaker 3: You know sometimes when you're listen, sometimes it's easier and

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Speaker 3: cheaper just to grab something.

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Speaker 2: You know, It's like.

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Speaker 5: It is kind of the cheapest fast food options. We're

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Speaker 5: not getting paid by in and out.

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Speaker 2: But that's right.

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Speaker 3: I know you'd say, although they did want to sponsor,

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Speaker 3: I would not be mad o.

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Speaker 2: Shakespeare days. Well, listen back into our head lines. There's

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Speaker 2: been a newly identified serial killer and we're going to

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Speaker 2: be digging into the details of all that. We also

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Speaker 2: have major updates, and this is regarding the tragic cruise

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Speaker 2: death of eighteen year old Anna Kepner. So a lot

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Speaker 2: has come out, including her cause of death, and her

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Speaker 2: biological mother has broken her silence as well. And also

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Speaker 2: there's been a controversial new TMZ report and the claims

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Speaker 2: that Celeste Revas Hernandez's body had been frozen. So we'll

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Speaker 2: get into those confusing details as well. But first a talkback.

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Speaker 6: Hi, this is Tamra from New Jersey. I just read

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Speaker 6: that Martin Donahue, the uncle of Anna Kepner, says that

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Speaker 6: her stepbrother actually killed her and that the parents actually

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Speaker 6: know about this. I haven't heard any news outside of this.

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Speaker 2: What have you guys heard? Thanks so much, love your show.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I saw that tweet. I saw it and he says,

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Speaker 3: you know, I'm Anna's uncle. The stepbrother is responsible for this.

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Speaker 3: Her brother when he you know, her her biological brother.

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Speaker 3: When he left the room, Anna was there and he

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Speaker 3: went to go take pictures and when he came back,

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Speaker 3: he thought Anna had left and so and there was

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Speaker 3: no surveillance footage of her leaving.

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Speaker 4: So yeah, and that and that the stepdad and mom

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Speaker 4: knew because.

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Speaker 3: The suspect in this case, the stepbrother, had confessed to

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Speaker 3: the mom.

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Speaker 2: That's what I That's what I read. Okay, Yeah, that

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Speaker 2: was quite a tweet.

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Speaker 7: And there's been some things that have come out with that.

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Speaker 8: I think Courtney you were looking into some of the

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Speaker 8: latest with that one, because.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so some salient details have come out. So investigators

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Speaker 2: now believe that Anna Keepner indeed did die from exphyxiation.

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Speaker 2: And this is a board of carnival cruise that she

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Speaker 2: had been taking. And new court filings and family statements

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Speaker 2: do indicate her sixteen year old stepbrother and the fact

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Speaker 2: that he's under investigation and may be facing criminal charges.

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Speaker 2: So eighteen year old Anna was found dead under a

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Speaker 2: bed on the Carnival Horizon cruise. This was back on

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Speaker 2: November eighth, and she was on the cruise with her father,

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Speaker 2: her step mother, and two step siblings. And her death

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Speaker 2: has prompted an ongoing FBI investigation. And there's been a

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Speaker 2: lot of complicated family dynamics in this one.

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Speaker 9: Yeah, a lot like the mom, the biological mother of her,

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Speaker 9: had to like sneak into the funeral and I don't

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Speaker 9: understand any of that at all, and the uncle of

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Speaker 9: course coming out like there's it's really really really sad,

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Speaker 9: it really is.

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Speaker 2: And so we'll kind of start with because there are

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Speaker 2: a bunch of confusing different things, but just starting with

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Speaker 2: sort of the facts of the investigation that we know. Yeah, preliminarily,

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Speaker 2: it was determined that Anna had died from exphyxiation, and

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Speaker 2: that is also the details included by a bar hold,

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Speaker 2: which is having an arm pressed across your neck.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Like imagine somebody's behind you, right and they come

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Speaker 3: up behind you and they put you know, your basically

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Speaker 3: your chin in their elbow, right, Like that's the Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Like a headlock.

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Speaker 4: Headlock, there you go from behind?

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Speaker 7: Yeah, okay, gotcha.

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Speaker 2: And this is this is indeed the first publicly reported

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Speaker 2: indication of specifically a mechanism of death. But important to

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Speaker 2: note the medical examiner has not confirmed it and a

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Speaker 2: full toxicology report is still pending, which makes sense. There

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Speaker 2: thankfully were no signs of sexual assault found. God. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And indeed the preliminary talk screens they show no drugs

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Speaker 2: or alcohol in ann a system, So we'll see how

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Speaker 2: that bears out. Anna did tell her family that night

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Speaker 2: that she wasn't feeling very well the night before her death,

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Speaker 2: and she did go to bed early. And when her

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Speaker 2: body was found under the bed, it was by a housekeeper, right.

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Speaker 3: And my understanding it was kind of like covered in

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Speaker 3: life jackets, like concealing it from opening.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, that's right. Did something to try to hide situation,

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Speaker 7: if you will.

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Speaker 2: Allegedly, Although I do have to say this additional information

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Speaker 2: about the potential bar hold is different because even when

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Speaker 2: we had first heard about this, and Stephanie was thinking, oh,

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Speaker 2: maybe they got a little boozy as kids may do

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Speaker 2: on her environment that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, international waters drinking.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, else, I was guilty of that.

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Speaker 8: I even said like who do we know that she

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Speaker 8: had medical history issues or you know, all these other

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Speaker 8: questions that we hadn't had an answer to you. But

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Speaker 8: now that we do know this, and I think Courtney,

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Speaker 8: even how we're finding out some of this info is

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Speaker 8: do an interesting or unusual way.

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Speaker 7: I think that there was something to touch.

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Speaker 2: Yes, So a lot of this information is coming out

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Speaker 2: because of custody hearing court filings. Yeah, so Anna's step family,

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Speaker 2: they're in the process and this is unrelated to what

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Speaker 2: happened to Anna, but they're in the process of an

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Speaker 2: unrelated custody case. And that's how all this information is

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Speaker 2: coming out. Regarding Anna's stepbrother, who again is sixteen years old.

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Speaker 2: There for a minor investigators have not publicly named a suspect. Interesting,

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Speaker 2: So it's a lot of info coming out. The FBI

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Speaker 2: has told and this came out through the proceedings. The

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Speaker 2: FBI told Anna's stepmother that one of her children may

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Speaker 2: face criminal charges. And the sixteen year old step brother

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Speaker 2: we've been speaking about was reportedly hospitalized immediately after Anna's

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Speaker 2: body was discovered. This is like, really really sad. This

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Speaker 2: is true crime.

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Speaker 3: Tonight on iHeartRadio, i'mbody moving and I'm here with Courtney

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Speaker 3: Armstrong and listen, we got Aha chiming in on things.

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Speaker 3: We're talking about the death of eighteen year old Anna

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Speaker 3: Kepner aboard the Carnival Horizon cruise ship. If you have thoughts,

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Speaker 3: we want you to, you know, weigh in, give us

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Speaker 3: a call eighty eight thirty one crime or hit us

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Speaker 3: on the talkbacks on the iHeartRadio app.

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Speaker 2: You know what else?

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Speaker 3: I found kind of strange and I'm just gonna stay

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Speaker 3: too obvious it. This room was being shared by Anna

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Speaker 3: who's eighteen. She's no longer, but Anna's eighteen, her little brother,

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Speaker 3: her biological brother, and I think he's fourteen or fifteen, okay,

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Speaker 3: and then the stepbrother who's sixteen. Why are all three

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Speaker 3: of them in the same room. That is really strange

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Speaker 3: to be putting the kids together at that age, especially

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Speaker 3: a stepbrother.

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Speaker 8: I mean, I can't speak this for all families that

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Speaker 8: travel cruises are a little pricey.

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Speaker 3: So okay, well, then put mom with Anna and put

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Speaker 3: the dad with the two boys.

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Speaker 2: I see your point.

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Speaker 8: Yeah, that's mom and dad were like, we want our.

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Speaker 3: Away. I don't know, I just think it's maybe it's

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Speaker 3: maybe it's not weird. And I just I think it's weird.

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Speaker 3: But I think it's weird.

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Speaker 8: Weird for me, Like I would be like, oh, I

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Speaker 8: can't sleep with all these people, but I understand that clearly.

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Speaker 7: You know, they probably said all the kids will be

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Speaker 7: fine together.

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Speaker 3: But especially since like we saw, did you guys see

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Speaker 3: the video of Anna's ex boyfriend come out?

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Speaker 8: No?

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Speaker 2: Oh my god.

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Speaker 3: Okay, So he he came out and he was like,

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Speaker 3: I'm Anna's ex boyfriend. And they were like, all this

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Speaker 3: press around him, right, and he said, you know, I

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Speaker 3: think it was her stepbrother. And he said this alone,

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Speaker 3: like right after it happened. And they were like, why

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Speaker 3: you know, why tell us why you think that? And

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Speaker 3: he said, because when we were on FaceTime, when we

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Speaker 3: were together, we would be on FaceTime and whatnot her

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Speaker 3: brother was her stepbrother was always trying to climb on.

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Speaker 7: Top of her. Oh oh god, it was weird.

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Speaker 3: And yeah, So like knowing that and then learning that

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Speaker 3: they were all in the same room, I'm like, oh.

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Speaker 8: Now I get it. Now, I see why your mind

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Speaker 8: went because I didn't know that's why my mind went there. Yeah,

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Speaker 8: maybe I would probably think the same. What's weird to

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Speaker 8: me is I guess I don't know a lot about

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Speaker 8: the world of custody hearings, and you know how the

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Speaker 8: FBI pandles investigations and such. But the fact that they're

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Speaker 8: getting we're getting a lot of the information about everything

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Speaker 8: through the custody hearing. It's just interesting that I guess

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Speaker 8: the FBI is letting whoever is involved with the custody

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Speaker 8: hearing know some of the details of the case.

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Speaker 7: But we don't know.

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Speaker 8: I mean, but it's just I think it's just odd

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Speaker 8: and fascinating. But another thing, referring to news that's coming

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Speaker 8: out about it, did you know, Courtney, you know about

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Speaker 8: how her biological mother found out about the news?

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Speaker 2: Oh? Yeah, this is heartbreaking. So it really is. So.

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Speaker 2: Anna's biological mother indeed was on the cruise. Her name

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Speaker 2: is Heather Wright, and she lives in Oklahoma. She had

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Speaker 2: not seen Anna for several years, and she attributes that

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Speaker 2: distance to Anna's father's alleged interference in that and Anna's mother,

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Speaker 2: Heather stated she was never informed of her daughter's death

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Speaker 2: by authorities or by family, and she discovered the news

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Speaker 2: by googling. Eighteen year old died on cruise ship and

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Speaker 2: up came Anna's photo and media coverage. Can you imagine?

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Speaker 7: Horrible?

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Speaker 2: No, horrible No, I mean it's a sickening How in

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Speaker 2: the world do you whatever terms you're on?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, with your do you call your ex and you

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Speaker 3: tell it look at our daughter, just like, what is

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Speaker 3: going on?

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Speaker 2: I don't understand that.

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Speaker 7: Satan. Yeah, that makes no sense to me that.

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Speaker 3: Although I mean I don't know anything about her mom.

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Speaker 3: I don't know what the situation she's in.

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Speaker 2: It's hard.

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Speaker 4: I mean, I truly don't know.

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Speaker 3: I mean, there's sometimes you know, you're emancipated from your

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Speaker 3: parent in some situation for a reason, you know, And

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Speaker 3: I don't know. I don't know anything about their situation

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Speaker 3: for me to even speak on. But I just find

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Speaker 3: that very strange.

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Speaker 2: Are It absolutely is? And also in the strange realm so.

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Speaker 2: Anna's mother, Heather, said that she attended Anna's celebration of

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Speaker 2: life in a disguise. She had a wig and high

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Speaker 2: heels on and that was to avoid any detection. And

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Speaker 2: she claims her ex husband threatened to have her arrested

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Speaker 2: if she entered the state of Florida. See there's some

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Speaker 2: child support issues. It sounds like there's a lot there.

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Speaker 3: It sounds messy with everything. I mean, clearly the stepbrother

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Speaker 3: allegedly allegedly allegedly killed Anna. Right, there's clearly something wrong

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Speaker 3: with the entire family. I clearly something wrong. But you know,

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Speaker 3: I feel really bad for is the little brother, Anna's

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Speaker 3: biological brother. He left Anna and the stepbrother in the

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Speaker 3: room and went and took like photographs, he was I

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Speaker 3: think he was taking photographs.

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Speaker 4: We correct me if I'm wrong, of the ship.

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Speaker 3: And when he came back, Anna was gone, and he

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Speaker 3: thought she went out, but she was gone. I mean,

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Speaker 3: I feel really bad for that little bro. I feel

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Speaker 3: really bad for him. Nothing is his fault, clearly, I

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Speaker 3: just feel very bad. I just feel very bad for him.

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Speaker 8: So he slept in that room with her body underneath

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Speaker 8: the bed the whole time, like not aware, not aware.

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Speaker 3: I mean, he thought Anna went out. You know, it's

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Speaker 3: a cruise ship. She's eighteen, you know. Uh, God, he

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Speaker 3: didn't know where she was. He just knew that she

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Speaker 3: was not there. And there is no surveillance. There is

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Speaker 3: surveillance footage of her entering room, none of her leaving. Wow,

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Speaker 3: so obviously it happened when the brother was gone.

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Speaker 8: Right, Yeah, Well this is this is this is a

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Speaker 8: sad one that I think I definitely would like to

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Speaker 8: continue following this and things keep us in the loop.

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Speaker 3: Well, I don't know we're going to see much with

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Speaker 3: the FBI handling the investigation. I don't know that we're

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Speaker 3: going to see a whole lot. Will follow this custody thing, right,

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Speaker 3: We'll follow that to get some information. We'll have to

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Speaker 3: see what the FBI decides they want to release or not.

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Speaker 2: And then just worth saying, Anna the victim, she was

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Speaker 2: a high school senior, a cheerleader, thoughtful, nurturing, outgoing, and

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Speaker 2: just someone who radiated positivity. So let's keep the shoes thoughts.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, definitely in our thoughts, the whole families and our thoughts.

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Speaker 3: Really when we come back, we're going to be doing

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Speaker 3: some forensic breakthroughs that changed everything from the first DNA

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Speaker 3: case to the bitemark evidence that helped catch Ted Bundy

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Speaker 3: keep her hair. At True Crime Tonight.

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Speaker 2: This is True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio, where we talk

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Speaker 2: true crime all the time. I'm Courtney Armstrong here with

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Speaker 2: my buddy Body move In and producer Taha and of

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Speaker 2: course Adam in the control room. And later in the

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Speaker 2: show we're going to be giving information about a newly

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Speaker 2: identified serial killer, so we'll dig into those details. Also,

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Speaker 2: we're gonna go over a controversial new TMZ report claims

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Speaker 2: that Celeste Revs Hernandez's body had been frozen. And she,

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Speaker 2: of course, is the fourteen year old whose deceased body

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Speaker 2: was found in the front of pop star David's tesla.

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Speaker 2: But first we have for Scientific Sunday, Body Movin herself

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Speaker 2: is going to talk about some forensic firsts.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I am the TMU Joseph Scott Morgan, I am

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Speaker 3: the stops.

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Speaker 2: I am the TMU version.

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Speaker 3: Of Joseph Scott Morgan, our wonderful friend, forensics expert Joseph

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Speaker 3: Scott Morgan is not here today for Scientific Sunday. Hopefully

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Speaker 3: he is having a wonderful time with his family, you know,

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Speaker 3: Thanksgiving week, you guys, right, So exactly right. So I

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Speaker 3: am doing We wanted to continue with those the forensic

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Speaker 3: Sundays just because Scientific Sunday, just because I selfishly love

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Speaker 3: talking about forensics.

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Speaker 7: So yeah, we're going to do it.

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Speaker 4: Do you really do?

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Speaker 2: I love the case studies.

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Speaker 8: I love you he does the crime lab like I

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Speaker 8: find that super fascinating.

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Speaker 2: You too. There's something comforting to me about suctions.

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Speaker 7: I can drop the factor two and people are like,

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Speaker 7: oh wow, how did.

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Speaker 9: You know that?

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Speaker 7: Who didn't know that?

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Speaker 4: But oh right, right, yeah.

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Speaker 8: So I'm ready for the next Thanksgiving function and yeah.

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Speaker 2: It makes us all seem smarter. Right.

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Speaker 3: So for today, for our scientific Sunday, I thought it

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Speaker 3: would be interesting to cover some of the first like

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Speaker 3: the forensic first, and you know that have been really

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Speaker 3: important for you know, how cases are tried nowadays, right,

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Speaker 3: Like we're all kind of relying on the things that

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Speaker 3: happened first. And so we're gonna start with the first

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Speaker 3: case solved with DNA. And not only is it the

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Speaker 3: first case ever solved with DNA, it's also the first

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Speaker 3: conviction that was overturned using DNA. So it's two and one.

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Speaker 2: It's a two for get out. Yeah, that's the two first.

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Speaker 7: Okay.

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Speaker 3: So this happened in England. It was nineteen eighty six,

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Speaker 3: and it's called the Colin Pitchfork murders and it happened

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Speaker 3: in England. Nearly two nearly identical murders shocked the entire

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Speaker 3: country and eventually changed forensic science forever. It was on

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Speaker 3: November twenty first, nineteen eighty three. This is prior to

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Speaker 3: DNA being like discovered and broken down and whatnot. Fifteen

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Speaker 3: year old Linda Mann. She disappeared walking home. Her body

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Speaker 3: was found the next morning on a footpath known as

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Speaker 3: the Black Pad. She had been raped and strangled. Police

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Speaker 3: collected seamen from the scene, but in nineteen eighty three,

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Speaker 3: DNA profiling did not exist, so the case went just cold.

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Speaker 2: Okay.

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Speaker 3: Three years later, on July thirty first, nineteen eighty six,

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Speaker 3: another fifteen year old girl, don Ashwick ash Worth, I'm sorry,

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Speaker 3: she was found brutally murdered in a similar fashion.

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Speaker 2: Okay.

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Speaker 3: The community panicked. Police arrested a seventeen year old boy

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Speaker 3: who confessed under pressure, so this is a.

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Speaker 2: False confession, okay.

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Speaker 3: But investigators turned to a new experimental technique developed by

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Speaker 3: geneticist Sir Alec Jeffries, and it's called DNA profiling. All right,

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Speaker 3: So Jeffries, doctor Jeffries or Sir Alec Jeffries. I think

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Speaker 3: Sir is probably probably one of the coolest titles you

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Speaker 3: can get, right, Sir, Absolutely absolutely right.

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Speaker 4: So sir, let's just call him Sir Jeffries.

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Speaker 3: He compared the DNA from both murder scenes and made

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Speaker 3: two brown groundbreaking discoveries. Both commurders were committed by the

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Speaker 3: same man, and the teenage suspect who confessed was totally innocent,

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Speaker 3: so he became This became the first time DNA cleared

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Speaker 3: a suspect in a criminal case and the first time

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Speaker 3: it was used to somebody.

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Speaker 4: Really, okay, now listen to this. This would never happen today.

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Speaker 3: This would never happen today, number one, and it would

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Speaker 3: never happen in the United States. So, realizing the killer

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Speaker 3: was still free, police conducted the world's first masked DNA screening,

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Speaker 3: asking over five thousand local men to provide blove, blood

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Speaker 3: or saliva samples.

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Speaker 2: Oh, so they.

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Speaker 7: Asked the people in that area of the community men

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Speaker 7: to do that.

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Speaker 3: So but then if they didn't even need to do it,

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Speaker 3: because the breakthrough came when a bakery worker admitted overhearing

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Speaker 3: that a coworker had submitted a DNA sample on behalf

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Speaker 3: of someone else, and he got suspicious of this. He

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Speaker 3: was like, why would they need to do that, So

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Speaker 3: he told the cops and that someone was Colin Pitchwork.

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Speaker 3: He was the father of two with a history of

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Speaker 3: indecent exposure, and when police obtained his DNA. It matched

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Speaker 3: both crime scenes perfectly.

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Speaker 2: Wow.

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Speaker 3: So he was arrested in September of nineteen eighty seven

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Speaker 3: and later sentenced to life in prison, becoming the first

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Speaker 3: person in history convicted using DNA evidence. And this became

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Speaker 3: obviously revolutionized, like nothing like DNA has revolutionized criminal science.

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Speaker 4: I mean it is like totally revolutionized, right, Like.

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Speaker 3: Now everybody expects DNA to be everywhere, right, like all

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Speaker 3: over the crime scene and you know the CSI effect, Right,

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Speaker 3: it's all about time.

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Speaker 8: I'm like, you know, because you said this was the

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Speaker 8: first time someone was convicted, I wonder if it was

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Speaker 8: hard to convince the jewelry.

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Speaker 3: Or you know what, I bet you it was. It

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Speaker 3: was probably really difficult to explain the DNA sequencing for

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Speaker 3: the first time. I mean, listen, iconic glaze over when.

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Speaker 10: I hear it.

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Speaker 3: I'm like, what, I struggle sometimes, you know, Yeah, I

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Speaker 3: could imagine, you know what it would be interesting to

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Speaker 3: look into that.

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Speaker 2: I'm not sure.

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00:21:50,800 --> 00:21:52,280
Speaker 3: I mean, this was a nineteen eighty six I don't

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Speaker 3: know how well it's documented. But yeah, so again this

403
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Speaker 3: became superhistoric. DNA cleared an innocent suspect, right, Wow, mass

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Speaker 3: DNA screen was conducted and it convicted the sky pitchfork. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: and that's the first DNA case.

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Speaker 8: That is so incredible. I like you broke that down

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Speaker 8: so well that easy. I feel like, okay, I'm ready,

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Speaker 8: I could take my cap off. I feel like I

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Speaker 8: have one thing I've learned.

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Speaker 3: The next one's even crazy though. The next one's actually

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Speaker 3: really interesting.

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Speaker 2: Oh is it something we can sink our teeth into.

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Speaker 2: Stop at keep your day job for sure. This is

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Speaker 2: Dr grumb tonight. We're on iHeartRadio and we are doing

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Speaker 2: Scientific Sunday and being schooled by the great Body Movin,

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Speaker 2: who just explained how DNA was first introduced in criminal cases.

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Speaker 2: And we would love to hear your thoughts aided three

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Speaker 2: one crime. Tell us what you're thinking about this, or

419
00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:05,240
Speaker 2: you can always sit us on a talk back on

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Speaker 2: the app upper right hand corner, there's a little red microphone.

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Speaker 2: You press it record and that recordings on the show.

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Speaker 2: But now, Body, forensic odentology, I believe, okay, you have

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Speaker 2: it right, you have it right.

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Speaker 3: So friensic odent I cannot talk today forensic odentology.

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Speaker 4: I need to get go see an identologists or something.

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Speaker 3: So It is a specialized field where trained dentists help

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Speaker 3: investigate by examining like teeth and dental records, bite marks,

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Speaker 3: if there's any left, like on a victim, structure of jaws,

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Speaker 3: dental restorations, like you know, identifying fillings and crowns, bridges, dentures.

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Speaker 2: Teeth are really really durable.

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Speaker 3: They even survive water damage, trauma, decomp and fire. So

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Speaker 3: you always hear people being identified via their dental records

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Speaker 3: or k right, right, So this is like forensic identology.

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Speaker 3: I guess, Okay, You're never okay, You're literally never going

435
00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:12,840
Speaker 3: to guess the first acknowledge the earliest historically accepted case

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Speaker 3: where dental evidence was used in a criminal or an

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Speaker 3: investigative context.

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Speaker 2: You're never going to guess. Okay, so we just had

439
00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:28,359
Speaker 2: nineteen eighties fornas, right, Okay, so I'm gonna guess that

440
00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:31,800
Speaker 2: it was before. Let's go nineteen fifties.

441
00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:35,560
Speaker 3: Oh well, you're half right.

442
00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:37,119
Speaker 2: You're also never going to.

443
00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:39,960
Speaker 8: Guess because I was talking with body about it.

444
00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:43,840
Speaker 3: Heard right, Courtney, You're technically correct, But I'm going to

445
00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:46,280
Speaker 3: get to that in a minute. Oh I'm so the

446
00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:52,600
Speaker 3: first the first identification via forensic or odentology. I guess

447
00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:57,600
Speaker 3: it's a disguy named doctor Joseph Warren and he died

448
00:24:57,800 --> 00:25:00,600
Speaker 3: as a result of the batter of bunk Battle of

449
00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:05,200
Speaker 3: Bunker Hill. This was in seventeen seventy five. And guess

450
00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:08,640
Speaker 3: who sat in on this identification.

451
00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:10,480
Speaker 2: I'm gonna give you. I'm gonna give you this.

452
00:25:10,520 --> 00:25:11,640
Speaker 4: I'm gonna give you a hint.

453
00:25:12,119 --> 00:25:15,480
Speaker 2: The British are coming. The British are coming. Oh, I'm

454
00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:23,719
Speaker 2: so bad with history at all. So he d He

455
00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:25,080
Speaker 2: was like a silver smile.

456
00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:28,360
Speaker 3: He was like a silversmith dentist, like they they used

457
00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:29,800
Speaker 3: to do the fillings and everything.

458
00:25:30,119 --> 00:25:32,159
Speaker 2: Okay, so this guy died.

459
00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:35,240
Speaker 3: This guy died in the war, Okay, as a result

460
00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:36,920
Speaker 3: of you know, he died of the batter of Buncle Hill,

461
00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:41,119
Speaker 3: Bunker Hill, and his body was just like really like

462
00:25:41,920 --> 00:25:44,840
Speaker 3: disfigured and mangled, and they couldn't identify who it was.

463
00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:49,480
Speaker 3: And his the Paul Revere, who was like again and

464
00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:54,040
Speaker 3: also a dentist, identified his body by recognizing like a

465
00:25:54,840 --> 00:25:58,400
Speaker 3: prosthetic that he had made for him. And he had

466
00:25:58,440 --> 00:25:59,960
Speaker 3: personally made that prosthetic.

467
00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:00,280
Speaker 2: It was.

468
00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:02,640
Speaker 3: It was probably like one of those fake teeth spacer

469
00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:06,120
Speaker 3: type situations. All sober, and it is the first recorded

470
00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:09,440
Speaker 3: instance of a person being identified using dental evidence.

471
00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:14,040
Speaker 2: Paul Revere. Oh my gosh, that's wild crazy and body,

472
00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:17,359
Speaker 2: I actually did know that Paul Rear was a blacksmith.

473
00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:21,160
Speaker 2: And do you remember on West Wing? Why I would

474
00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:25,000
Speaker 2: know that? Oh no, there's actually you guys. It's a

475
00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:28,280
Speaker 2: Thanksgiving episode, so for any Okay, let's hear it. Let's

476
00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:33,640
Speaker 2: just really really quick. So in this Thanksgiving episode, President

477
00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:37,919
Speaker 2: Bartlett he is searching for a knife, and he's a

478
00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:42,399
Speaker 2: persnickety guy. He's real specific and yes, and his quote

479
00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:47,600
Speaker 2: body man Charlie Young goes, He's going to every kind

480
00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:50,080
Speaker 2: of knife you can. And then ultimately, in a very

481
00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:55,520
Speaker 2: touching scene, President Bartlett bestows upon Charlie Young, his beloved

482
00:26:55,520 --> 00:27:00,000
Speaker 2: body man, a relic. It's a knife from his family,

483
00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:05,360
Speaker 2: from his family with the initials p R for Paul Revere. Right,

484
00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:09,000
Speaker 2: it's a cool episode.

485
00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:10,960
Speaker 3: I love that show. It just makes me all warm

486
00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:13,359
Speaker 3: and fuzzy. It's just I know, better times, better times.

487
00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:19,359
Speaker 3: But okay, so yeah, that's fascinating. Okay, another one there wasn't. Okay,

488
00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:22,200
Speaker 3: now here's the thing. The first I'm going to talk about.

489
00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:25,919
Speaker 3: The first US criminal conviction using bite marks because the

490
00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:29,000
Speaker 3: first one happened in England, and listen, we're talking way

491
00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:30,280
Speaker 3: too much about England right now.

492
00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:33,280
Speaker 2: And so I wanted to only do the United States once.

493
00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:39,280
Speaker 3: And so a woman was murdered in Texas and it

494
00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:43,080
Speaker 3: was the case of Doyle v. Texas, and this woman

495
00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:45,639
Speaker 3: was murdered and she bore bite bite marks, and a

496
00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:49,479
Speaker 3: dentist testified that the bite marks matched the defendant. So

497
00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:53,240
Speaker 3: this was the first bite mark conviction in US history.

498
00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:55,520
Speaker 3: The reason that I'm kind of bringing it up is

499
00:27:55,560 --> 00:27:59,679
Speaker 3: because it became really famous for Ted capturing Ted Bundy.

500
00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:04,440
Speaker 3: So Ted Bundy in the state of Florida where he,

501
00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:07,880
Speaker 3: you know, attacked ky Omega. There was a bite mark

502
00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:13,439
Speaker 3: left on Lisa Levi's like butt, and it became the

503
00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:17,720
Speaker 3: centerpiece of the prosecution. So Bundy's teeth were distinctive, they

504
00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:21,240
Speaker 3: were chipped, they were irregular, they were spaced, they were missed, aligned,

505
00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:25,960
Speaker 3: and the forensic odentologists created like a casting. There's a

506
00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:29,960
Speaker 3: really famous video of of Ted Bundy kind of sitting down,

507
00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:32,919
Speaker 3: kind of harassing the guy doing this this cast of

508
00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:33,400
Speaker 3: his mouth.

509
00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:35,960
Speaker 7: Participate it, He.

510
00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:38,120
Speaker 4: Didn't, he was Yeah, they fought it.

511
00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:41,360
Speaker 3: They thought it got it, and so what they did

512
00:28:41,560 --> 00:28:46,040
Speaker 3: was in court they was really really dramatic this moment

513
00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:50,600
Speaker 3: they overlaid the bite mark with the cast of Bundy's

514
00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:52,520
Speaker 3: teeth and it matched perfectly.

515
00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:55,400
Speaker 2: It was it was the moment.

516
00:28:55,160 --> 00:29:00,000
Speaker 3: Bitemark evidence gained mythic credibility in the public's mind. However,

517
00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:03,600
Speaker 3: or forensic bike mark evidence today has come under like

518
00:29:03,720 --> 00:29:08,240
Speaker 3: serious review. The National Academy of Sciences criticized it's scientist.

519
00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:10,440
Speaker 3: It's kind of considered just science at this point. I

520
00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:13,680
Speaker 3: wonder why, because it seems so Yeah, I mean, because

521
00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:19,560
Speaker 3: it contributed to at least twenty six wrongful convictions. Modern

522
00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:23,120
Speaker 3: courts now treat by mark evidence and testimony with a

523
00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:29,120
Speaker 3: lot of skepticism, and because like everybody's teeth impressions, it's

524
00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:32,360
Speaker 3: not unique like DNA or fingerprint, it's not one hundred

525
00:29:32,360 --> 00:29:35,560
Speaker 3: percent unique. People can have, you know, implants like me,

526
00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:37,680
Speaker 3: you know, I have prosthetics.

527
00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:44,160
Speaker 2: It's just note else. Yeah, right, Like that makes sense. Okay, yeah,

528
00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:46,480
Speaker 2: so is this something that would come up? Would they

529
00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:50,800
Speaker 2: have like Daubert evidentiary hearings about that. That's what well

530
00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:55,560
Speaker 2: I would imagine, Yeah, I went basically, yes, experts, expert

531
00:29:55,600 --> 00:29:59,320
Speaker 2: testimony being you know, certified by the judge, and yeah,

532
00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:01,640
Speaker 2: they can talk about it, but again it's met with

533
00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:04,280
Speaker 2: a lot of skepticism. Nowadays, there isn't a lot of

534
00:30:04,800 --> 00:30:06,840
Speaker 2: court cases that I'm familiar with, at least in the

535
00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:10,560
Speaker 2: last ten years, that I've talked about bite mark evidence. Wow,

536
00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:13,200
Speaker 2: I can't recall at least that's okay. So, first of all,

537
00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:16,960
Speaker 2: it's fascinating about Ted Bundy. And also I wonder if

538
00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:20,160
Speaker 2: it's not because, like you said, implants are much more

539
00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:25,520
Speaker 2: common braces right everywhere, and so our teeth are less distinctive,

540
00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:28,480
Speaker 2: Like I never had braces and I have real distinctive.

541
00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:30,360
Speaker 2: Well it's over teeth.

542
00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:32,000
Speaker 3: You know, right, And it's important to know, like you

543
00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:34,479
Speaker 3: can be identified via your dental records because you might

544
00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:37,400
Speaker 3: have a filling or you know, they'll have a cast

545
00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:40,200
Speaker 3: at your dental records and that's all cataloged and organized.

546
00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:43,760
Speaker 3: But your impression that you leave could look the same,

547
00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:46,280
Speaker 3: like our impression Courtney could look the same. I right,

548
00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:49,080
Speaker 3: imagine even though I have, you know, like maybe a

549
00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:50,720
Speaker 3: filling or you have a fill, you know what I mean,

550
00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:54,400
Speaker 3: you can still leave the bruises that teeth leave.

551
00:30:54,840 --> 00:30:57,320
Speaker 7: They're just not somewhat similar if you wire right.

552
00:30:57,240 --> 00:31:01,280
Speaker 2: Well, I mean, yeah, it convicted twenty six wrong people. Wow.

553
00:31:01,560 --> 00:31:04,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's kind of nuts, right, so yeah, anyway, it's

554
00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:06,880
Speaker 3: not it's not used as much anymore.

555
00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:10,080
Speaker 2: Well, thank you for all of that knowledge. I am

556
00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:13,360
Speaker 2: now smarter, just like when Joseph Scott Morgan's here. So

557
00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:17,440
Speaker 2: thank you. Boddy Body has been doing kind of dual

558
00:31:17,560 --> 00:31:25,360
Speaker 2: duty of co host and as right and driving our

559
00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:29,880
Speaker 2: scientific Sundays to keep us all smart and informed. We've

560
00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:31,560
Speaker 2: got a lot more coming up in the show. We've

561
00:31:31,560 --> 00:31:34,000
Speaker 2: got updates. Yeah, you did a great job. So good.

562
00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:34,360
Speaker 7: Yeah.

563
00:31:34,360 --> 00:31:35,840
Speaker 8: I was going to make a joke and say, you

564
00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:38,240
Speaker 8: know what another first is. Yeah, that was your first

565
00:31:38,280 --> 00:31:39,760
Speaker 8: time doing it and it was amazing.

566
00:31:41,120 --> 00:31:42,400
Speaker 3: I did it a couple of weeks, a couple of

567
00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:44,080
Speaker 3: months ago or no, like a couple of weeks ago.

568
00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:45,120
Speaker 2: I think, yeah, I.

569
00:31:45,040 --> 00:31:46,760
Speaker 7: Feel where's my dun's cap when you put it?

570
00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:52,080
Speaker 2: Remember, I was like mercy apple for me? Yeah that's right, okay, Well.

571
00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:56,840
Speaker 3: Hello me, oh me, I want to thank me.

572
00:31:57,480 --> 00:32:01,239
Speaker 2: Because a second time, how's that?

573
00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:01,640
Speaker 11: All right?

574
00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:05,000
Speaker 2: Thank you. Later in the show, we've got updates in

575
00:32:05,040 --> 00:32:10,800
Speaker 2: the David Celestrevas Hernandez case, as well as information on

576
00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:15,040
Speaker 2: a new alleged serial killer. But right now we are

577
00:32:15,040 --> 00:32:16,680
Speaker 2: going to get into some talkbacks.

578
00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:21,680
Speaker 12: Oh okay, Hi, this is Marissa from Maryland talking about

579
00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:22,920
Speaker 12: the tracking people.

580
00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:24,280
Speaker 2: I'll tell you what.

581
00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:27,280
Speaker 12: I have Life three sixty for my family, but I

582
00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:30,120
Speaker 12: also have it for my mom. When she was driving

583
00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:33,160
Speaker 12: down to our house in Maryland. We live in Western

584
00:32:33,280 --> 00:32:37,239
Speaker 12: she was driving straight to Baltimore. I noticed where she

585
00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:40,680
Speaker 12: was and I was able to talk her way to

586
00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:43,880
Speaker 12: our house. This is this happens a few times, so

587
00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:45,360
Speaker 12: it's really valuable.

588
00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:48,320
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, wow, that's great that you did.

589
00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:51,320
Speaker 8: I thought about it for senior years, which is really

590
00:32:51,520 --> 00:32:52,280
Speaker 8: a smart thing.

591
00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:54,760
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, for sure.

592
00:32:55,360 --> 00:32:57,200
Speaker 3: Like, you know, I have friends that you know, are

593
00:32:57,280 --> 00:32:59,040
Speaker 3: dating and they'll be like, I'm you know, I'm going

594
00:32:59,080 --> 00:32:59,400
Speaker 3: on a date.

595
00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:02,880
Speaker 4: Can you watch I'm yeah, you know. I love spying

596
00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:03,520
Speaker 4: on my friends.

597
00:33:03,720 --> 00:33:04,920
Speaker 2: I love it.

598
00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:06,440
Speaker 4: I like I watched them.

599
00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:09,800
Speaker 3: Drive around do their errands, you know, I you know,

600
00:33:09,840 --> 00:33:11,720
Speaker 3: if they're going out, I know, and I know they're

601
00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:12,920
Speaker 3: going out and maybe having a.

602
00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:14,960
Speaker 4: Little bit of too much of a good time. I'm like, okay,

603
00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:16,000
Speaker 4: let's make sure they're safe.

604
00:33:16,040 --> 00:33:16,240
Speaker 3: You know.

605
00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:18,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, I love it. I love it. I don't do

606
00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:22,440
Speaker 2: any of you watch vander Pump Rules. I used to,

607
00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:25,560
Speaker 2: I haven't a really long time. Here's here's where I'm

608
00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:28,040
Speaker 2: missing Stephanie the most. There's a there's a woman named

609
00:33:28,040 --> 00:33:34,280
Speaker 2: Sheena Shea, and she uh famously has so many people

610
00:33:34,360 --> 00:33:37,560
Speaker 2: share their locations with her, and she also will sit there,

611
00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:41,600
Speaker 2: you know, just kind of you know, checking everything, but

612
00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:45,040
Speaker 2: she's also uncovered quite a bit of like who shouldn't

613
00:33:45,080 --> 00:33:46,040
Speaker 2: be at so and so?

614
00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:49,080
Speaker 4: Oh that's scandalous.

615
00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:50,560
Speaker 2: I need that.

616
00:33:50,960 --> 00:33:52,680
Speaker 4: If you guys want to share your locations with me,

617
00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:53,320
Speaker 4: I'm up for it.

618
00:33:54,800 --> 00:33:59,040
Speaker 2: I want to thoughty on the case. Let me all

619
00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:03,520
Speaker 2: over that one. Okay, okay, Well, after we spoke about this,

620
00:34:03,600 --> 00:34:06,160
Speaker 2: and I honestly don't even remember how this originally came up.

621
00:34:06,200 --> 00:34:08,440
Speaker 2: But for the first time, i'd never I did not

622
00:34:08,560 --> 00:34:11,239
Speaker 2: even know where it was in my phone. And it

623
00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:16,959
Speaker 2: turns out that I had been tracking my husband and son.

624
00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:18,360
Speaker 2: I knew bout my son and I have that a

625
00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:23,440
Speaker 2: different way, but that my husband didn't track me. I

626
00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:25,920
Speaker 2: don't know if you're having a fight when that was installed,

627
00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:29,800
Speaker 2: And I was like.

628
00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:32,080
Speaker 3: Did you feel offended, like or were you like, wait

629
00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:33,919
Speaker 3: a minute, why isn't he looking where I'm at.

630
00:34:35,080 --> 00:34:37,799
Speaker 2: No, it was more I'm sure it was definitely my

631
00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:41,319
Speaker 2: decision in whatever moment whatever years ago. But anyway, now

632
00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:44,480
Speaker 2: we decided honestly a lot. What the talkback woman was saying,

633
00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:47,399
Speaker 2: He's like, yeah, I can tell how far you are

634
00:34:47,600 --> 00:34:50,440
Speaker 2: away when I'm coming. You know, we hang out a

635
00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:53,000
Speaker 2: lot being married, and I.

636
00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:54,680
Speaker 3: Share a location with my best friend and when I

637
00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:56,719
Speaker 3: you know, when I drive to her house, I go

638
00:34:56,800 --> 00:34:59,840
Speaker 3: into my car, I plug in my phone, I text

639
00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:02,600
Speaker 3: my nave and it's like, do you give you know,

640
00:35:02,760 --> 00:35:06,600
Speaker 3: Jody an update on where you're at, and it chexts her,

641
00:35:07,080 --> 00:35:09,440
Speaker 3: you know, every ten minutes or so she's eight minutes

642
00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:10,120
Speaker 3: away or you know.

643
00:35:10,440 --> 00:35:11,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, I love that.

644
00:35:11,160 --> 00:35:14,040
Speaker 8: That's I love it, and it gives me comfort about

645
00:35:14,040 --> 00:35:16,200
Speaker 8: the dating side because I do go and dates.

646
00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:16,880
Speaker 7: So now maybe.

647
00:35:16,680 --> 00:35:18,719
Speaker 2: It's haha, you scoundrel.

648
00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:21,560
Speaker 8: I know, well I should send it to friends and say,

649
00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:24,040
Speaker 8: like you should someone new I'm meeting, so just.

650
00:35:24,080 --> 00:35:27,080
Speaker 3: You tah, listen, I'm your girl. I am your girl.

651
00:35:28,080 --> 00:35:31,279
Speaker 3: I would never Okay, I even have cast members from

652
00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:34,160
Speaker 3: The Mole on my Yeah. Yeah, everybody, Oh yeah, I

653
00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:38,000
Speaker 3: love that. Okay, Oh, so and so is in you know, Hawaii.

654
00:35:38,160 --> 00:35:41,960
Speaker 3: Oh look at the you know, I love it. Yeah, okay,

655
00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:45,839
Speaker 3: no nefarious, no nefariousness is going on.

656
00:35:45,920 --> 00:35:50,840
Speaker 2: I'm helping. Let's grab another talkback.

657
00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:56,520
Speaker 13: Hi, team, this is Carla. I'm wondering if you could

658
00:35:57,880 --> 00:36:02,239
Speaker 13: look into and maybe speak on the horrific murder of

659
00:36:02,640 --> 00:36:04,839
Speaker 13: Amber Zek in Minnesota.

660
00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:07,440
Speaker 2: Thank you. You know.

661
00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:11,120
Speaker 3: Strangely enough, I actually know about this. I happen to

662
00:36:11,160 --> 00:36:17,399
Speaker 3: belong to a reddit, a subreddit that talks about it

663
00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:21,800
Speaker 3: mainly focuses on violence against women, and this headline stood

664
00:36:21,800 --> 00:36:26,400
Speaker 3: out to me and I read it. I think on Thursday. Well, yeah, Thursday,

665
00:36:27,040 --> 00:36:31,920
Speaker 3: this happened. I think off top I'm doing this top ahead.

666
00:36:32,520 --> 00:36:36,840
Speaker 3: I think at the beginning of this month, maybe maybe

667
00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:39,200
Speaker 3: mid November, November seventh or something.

668
00:36:40,480 --> 00:36:43,080
Speaker 2: Just the cliff notes I have is that it happened

669
00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:46,719
Speaker 2: the morning of November eleventh, November eleventh, Yeah, around six

670
00:36:46,760 --> 00:36:51,239
Speaker 2: o'clock am. And this was inside an Advanced Process Technologies

671
00:36:51,280 --> 00:36:57,920
Speaker 2: facility in Cocotoa, Minnesota. But yeah, what what else happened

672
00:36:57,920 --> 00:36:58,799
Speaker 2: with twenty years old?

673
00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:01,480
Speaker 4: She's twenty years old. Her name is Amber.

674
00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:05,319
Speaker 3: She had recently gone through like a welding program, and

675
00:37:05,360 --> 00:37:08,520
Speaker 3: she was working in that trade of welding. I mean,

676
00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:12,279
Speaker 3: this is a specialized trade, and it's worth noting that

677
00:37:12,360 --> 00:37:14,799
Speaker 3: not a lot of women are in these you know,

678
00:37:14,840 --> 00:37:18,799
Speaker 3: specialized trades when you're talking about construction and engineering like that.

679
00:37:19,560 --> 00:37:23,000
Speaker 3: And she was in pro employed as a welder at

680
00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:28,480
Speaker 3: this manufacturing plant. And this guy, his name's David DeLong.

681
00:37:28,560 --> 00:37:30,560
Speaker 3: He's forty years old. He was a coworker of hers,

682
00:37:31,680 --> 00:37:33,680
Speaker 3: and he just he was at his workstation and he

683
00:37:33,719 --> 00:37:37,440
Speaker 3: picked up a sledgehammer, walked over to her workstation and

684
00:37:37,520 --> 00:37:39,360
Speaker 3: just started bludgeoning her.

685
00:37:39,480 --> 00:37:41,200
Speaker 2: Hit her five times, five or.

686
00:37:41,200 --> 00:37:46,280
Speaker 3: Six times, and then like something about like he walked

687
00:37:46,280 --> 00:37:49,759
Speaker 3: to his supervisor and was like, she's gone. And when

688
00:37:49,800 --> 00:37:53,040
Speaker 3: they arrested him, he told police that he had been

689
00:37:53,040 --> 00:37:54,600
Speaker 3: planning on he didn't like her, and that he had

690
00:37:54,640 --> 00:37:57,319
Speaker 3: been something about like he had been planning on killing

691
00:37:57,320 --> 00:37:57,920
Speaker 3: her for a while.

692
00:37:58,520 --> 00:37:58,880
Speaker 7: Wow.

693
00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:00,560
Speaker 2: Yeah. So, and the reason it.

694
00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:04,320
Speaker 3: Popped up is, uh, there was a video on TikTok

695
00:38:04,440 --> 00:38:07,600
Speaker 3: or something some guy who is a welder and works

696
00:38:07,640 --> 00:38:09,200
Speaker 3: in the trade, and he was like, we have to

697
00:38:09,239 --> 00:38:12,759
Speaker 3: be better to women in our trade. But you know,

698
00:38:12,800 --> 00:38:15,320
Speaker 3: I really believe that this is an isolated incident.

699
00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:15,640
Speaker 2: You know.

700
00:38:15,680 --> 00:38:18,480
Speaker 3: I of course, violence against women is at the workplace

701
00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:19,240
Speaker 3: is not okay.

702
00:38:19,719 --> 00:38:23,400
Speaker 4: But this guy clearly something's wrong with him. I mean clearly,

703
00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:24,520
Speaker 4: I think this is an outlier.

704
00:38:25,239 --> 00:38:28,279
Speaker 2: How sad and senseless you go to work, you have

705
00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:32,240
Speaker 2: this unbelievable skilled job as a twenty year just finished.

706
00:38:33,120 --> 00:38:37,240
Speaker 3: She's twenty, Yeah, had the like the foresight to be like, gosh,

707
00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:42,360
Speaker 3: welding's a lucrative position. Everyone's going to need a welder forever, like,

708
00:38:43,520 --> 00:38:45,719
Speaker 3: and she's just doing her job and he walks up

709
00:38:45,760 --> 00:38:51,160
Speaker 3: and starts. Anyway, it was very brutal, that's all I know.

710
00:38:51,239 --> 00:38:52,600
Speaker 3: That's all I remember about it.

711
00:38:52,640 --> 00:38:56,920
Speaker 8: But fantastic because you're you're you nailed everything. And just

712
00:38:57,280 --> 00:38:59,840
Speaker 8: to your point, the police said he quote had planning

713
00:38:59,840 --> 00:39:02,920
Speaker 8: to kill her for some time, and he allegedly said

714
00:39:03,520 --> 00:39:05,680
Speaker 8: he attacked her because quote he didn't like her.

715
00:39:05,760 --> 00:39:06,359
Speaker 2: He didn't like her.

716
00:39:06,440 --> 00:39:10,360
Speaker 8: Yeah, yeah, and he's charged with second degree intentional murder,

717
00:39:10,360 --> 00:39:13,879
Speaker 8: but prosecutors may upgrade it to first degree, So.

718
00:39:14,640 --> 00:39:18,799
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, that sounds warranted, especially if he did it

719
00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:21,640
Speaker 2: immediately went over and said I'd been planning to do

720
00:39:21,680 --> 00:39:25,520
Speaker 2: this for some time. It's very surprising to me what

721
00:39:25,640 --> 00:39:30,719
Speaker 2: the second degree same statute is, but it veries so

722
00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:35,520
Speaker 2: much in Minnesota. Yeah, it's different, never stay, it's different.

723
00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:37,719
Speaker 3: But if he had been planned, if he planned, if

724
00:39:37,719 --> 00:39:39,960
Speaker 3: it's true that he planned on doing this for a while,

725
00:39:40,480 --> 00:39:41,320
Speaker 3: I'm very surprised.

726
00:39:41,360 --> 00:39:44,600
Speaker 2: And it's not for sagree murder, you know what I mean? Likely?

727
00:39:45,200 --> 00:39:45,959
Speaker 2: Does that make sense?

728
00:39:46,120 --> 00:39:47,040
Speaker 7: Like agreed?

729
00:39:47,360 --> 00:39:49,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, although actually, and this is something honestly, we should

730
00:39:49,760 --> 00:39:53,040
Speaker 2: follow up and look into this because it specifically says

731
00:39:53,120 --> 00:39:57,680
Speaker 2: that he's charged with second degree intentional murder. So I

732
00:39:57,719 --> 00:40:01,600
Speaker 2: wonder if in Minnesota there's an intention murder statue. There

733
00:40:01,680 --> 00:40:05,120
Speaker 2: might be, and within that it's for a second third degree. Yeah, anyway,

734
00:40:05,200 --> 00:40:08,760
Speaker 2: let's let's feel sack and.

735
00:40:06,960 --> 00:40:10,160
Speaker 3: You know, all I can always you know, upgrade the

736
00:40:10,239 --> 00:40:12,439
Speaker 3: charges if they find out, you know, throughout the course

737
00:40:12,480 --> 00:40:14,800
Speaker 3: of the investigation, they might find a piece of evidence

738
00:40:14,880 --> 00:40:18,120
Speaker 3: that shows maybe they have to have, you know, something

739
00:40:18,160 --> 00:40:20,400
Speaker 3: showing that he was planning on doing this or not.

740
00:40:20,440 --> 00:40:22,960
Speaker 4: I'm not sure. It's really really horrific and that's all

741
00:40:22,960 --> 00:40:23,680
Speaker 4: I really know about it.

742
00:40:23,680 --> 00:40:27,160
Speaker 3: But yeah, you know, I really appreciate Listen, those case

743
00:40:27,239 --> 00:40:30,080
Speaker 3: talkbacks like she just left are my favorites.

744
00:40:31,400 --> 00:40:34,080
Speaker 2: I really are love those talkbacks.

745
00:40:34,440 --> 00:40:37,560
Speaker 3: Out of all the talkbacks we get, those are my favorite, Like, hey,

746
00:40:37,600 --> 00:40:40,560
Speaker 3: did you guys know about this case? Because oftentimes, I

747
00:40:40,640 --> 00:40:42,239
Speaker 3: mean I just so happen to know this one, but

748
00:40:42,320 --> 00:40:46,280
Speaker 3: oftentimes no, And we find out the most interesting cases

749
00:40:46,320 --> 00:40:49,840
Speaker 3: from you guys. So keep those coming. Just download the

750
00:40:49,840 --> 00:40:54,120
Speaker 3: iHeartRadio app and hit the little microphone button and listen.

751
00:40:54,239 --> 00:40:56,160
Speaker 2: If it's it's only thirty seconds.

752
00:40:56,400 --> 00:40:58,120
Speaker 3: So if you need more time, just leave another one,

753
00:40:58,400 --> 00:40:59,840
Speaker 3: you know, like, if you need to keep going, just

754
00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:00,440
Speaker 3: another one.

755
00:41:00,440 --> 00:41:01,080
Speaker 2: We'll play both.

756
00:41:01,880 --> 00:41:04,560
Speaker 8: Yeah, yeah, I think those are great. Speaking of that, which,

757
00:41:04,680 --> 00:41:06,680
Speaker 8: do we have time for another one? Do we feel

758
00:41:06,680 --> 00:41:07,040
Speaker 8: like we can?

759
00:41:07,560 --> 00:41:07,759
Speaker 14: Yeah?

760
00:41:08,280 --> 00:41:09,160
Speaker 2: Adam, to it up?

761
00:41:09,560 --> 00:41:10,160
Speaker 7: Do it Adam.

762
00:41:10,719 --> 00:41:15,279
Speaker 12: Hi, this is Shannon from Texas and Taha, this is

763
00:41:15,320 --> 00:41:15,719
Speaker 12: for you.

764
00:41:16,320 --> 00:41:19,080
Speaker 2: I do not like in and out Burgner.

765
00:41:19,280 --> 00:41:20,959
Speaker 4: Hang up on her down here.

766
00:41:21,000 --> 00:41:25,719
Speaker 3: We have water Burger and they have the most amazing

767
00:41:25,800 --> 00:41:26,480
Speaker 3: French fries.

768
00:41:26,680 --> 00:41:29,399
Speaker 10: He loose onion rings, So I'm with you.

769
00:41:29,440 --> 00:41:32,319
Speaker 2: And also I did catch the tail end of what

770
00:41:32,440 --> 00:41:32,920
Speaker 2: you said.

771
00:41:33,000 --> 00:41:36,279
Speaker 12: Yeah, I believe Taylor Swift is very overrated as well.

772
00:41:36,680 --> 00:41:41,680
Speaker 2: I love you, guys. I love it was that what's

773
00:41:41,680 --> 00:41:42,160
Speaker 2: her name? Was that?

774
00:41:42,239 --> 00:41:45,160
Speaker 7: Lynette? Is that what I caught? Because I am now.

775
00:41:45,360 --> 00:41:50,240
Speaker 8: Best friend Shannon, Shannon, Shannon, thank you Shannon. I'm glad

776
00:41:50,320 --> 00:41:52,720
Speaker 8: someone going with me BFS forever.

777
00:41:52,800 --> 00:41:57,760
Speaker 2: Thank you all opinions, welcome and listen. It's so interesting

778
00:41:57,840 --> 00:41:59,960
Speaker 2: that again, Ta, how you saying you didn't like it

779
00:42:00,400 --> 00:42:03,239
Speaker 2: got in my head enough that we have us ate

780
00:42:03,280 --> 00:42:04,799
Speaker 2: it at my house right.

781
00:42:05,239 --> 00:42:07,680
Speaker 3: Well, I mean I have to give Shannon the credit.

782
00:42:07,719 --> 00:42:10,440
Speaker 3: I don't like in and Ounce French Rise. I don't

783
00:42:11,480 --> 00:42:14,000
Speaker 3: I like their burgers. So that's about it. But you know,

784
00:42:14,080 --> 00:42:17,480
Speaker 3: I really do hear a lot of people say Whataburger

785
00:42:17,640 --> 00:42:19,400
Speaker 3: is the best burger.

786
00:42:19,640 --> 00:42:21,759
Speaker 2: One very good. I've never had one, and I've been

787
00:42:21,760 --> 00:42:23,960
Speaker 2: in Texas like a hundred times. You know.

788
00:42:24,280 --> 00:42:27,760
Speaker 5: When I was whenever I go visit home in Texas,

789
00:42:27,840 --> 00:42:30,680
Speaker 5: they there was this is boring. For a period of time,

790
00:42:30,719 --> 00:42:32,880
Speaker 5: I was in Chicago and I would go home to

791
00:42:32,960 --> 00:42:35,640
Speaker 5: Texas and they just built in and outs in Texas.

792
00:42:35,640 --> 00:42:37,200
Speaker 5: So it's like, oh great, I get in and out.

793
00:42:37,560 --> 00:42:40,040
Speaker 5: Now that I'm in LA and I go back to Texas,

794
00:42:40,040 --> 00:42:43,919
Speaker 5: now I get Whataburger every time I go. It's really good,

795
00:42:43,960 --> 00:42:47,360
Speaker 5: but it makes you feel terrible, like, don't plan anything

796
00:42:47,719 --> 00:42:48,640
Speaker 5: after you Well.

797
00:42:49,480 --> 00:42:52,399
Speaker 3: In Detroit, the special thing that we had was White

798
00:42:52,480 --> 00:42:53,400
Speaker 3: Castle at the time.

799
00:42:54,719 --> 00:42:55,319
Speaker 2: In New York.

800
00:42:55,680 --> 00:42:58,359
Speaker 3: Now they're everywhere, but that was like the big thing,

801
00:42:58,520 --> 00:43:02,160
Speaker 3: like Texas had Waburger, Detroit and those areas had White Castle.

802
00:43:02,760 --> 00:43:05,040
Speaker 3: And growing up, my my family would always call those

803
00:43:05,080 --> 00:43:08,759
Speaker 3: gut bombs like I was gonna Yeah. They were like

804
00:43:08,840 --> 00:43:11,560
Speaker 3: ten cents, you know, and you'd go in there after

805
00:43:11,680 --> 00:43:14,600
Speaker 3: a little night drinking and you would have your gut bomber.

806
00:43:14,800 --> 00:43:14,960
Speaker 7: Yeah.

807
00:43:15,080 --> 00:43:16,759
Speaker 2: My parents used to get bags of them.

808
00:43:17,040 --> 00:43:18,960
Speaker 7: Oh I could eat like ten of them in one setting.

809
00:43:19,000 --> 00:43:22,880
Speaker 2: Like yeah, my sister and brother in law, that was

810
00:43:22,920 --> 00:43:26,439
Speaker 2: exactly the burger bombs after four am. Just I swear

811
00:43:26,480 --> 00:43:28,680
Speaker 2: that they might buy a bottom, like a hundred at

812
00:43:28,719 --> 00:43:32,360
Speaker 2: a time, their friends and just yeah.

813
00:43:32,040 --> 00:43:36,279
Speaker 3: I like their little the White Castle little chicken sliders.

814
00:43:36,320 --> 00:43:41,560
Speaker 2: Oh no, that I haven't had. Oh they're the lush.

815
00:43:42,680 --> 00:43:45,000
Speaker 8: They have another place similar in the South, like White

816
00:43:45,080 --> 00:43:46,759
Speaker 8: Castles is to the East Coast.

817
00:43:46,840 --> 00:43:52,640
Speaker 2: Yes, crystals, Crystals. I've had crystals. It's really good, so good. Yeah,

818
00:43:52,760 --> 00:43:55,879
Speaker 2: I love crystals. Yeah, I go to I go to.

819
00:43:55,960 --> 00:43:58,239
Speaker 3: New Orleans quite a bit, or I used to, and

820
00:43:58,520 --> 00:44:00,000
Speaker 3: I'd always go to Crystals and Norlans.

821
00:44:00,280 --> 00:44:02,040
Speaker 7: Yeah, I love it.

822
00:44:02,280 --> 00:44:04,000
Speaker 2: You know what're gonna say, it's so crazy to go

823
00:44:04,040 --> 00:44:04,800
Speaker 2: to New Orleans.

824
00:44:04,800 --> 00:44:07,719
Speaker 3: Like they have the best food and I go to crystals, Like,

825
00:44:07,719 --> 00:44:08,400
Speaker 3: what's wrong with me?

826
00:44:08,600 --> 00:44:13,200
Speaker 2: I was judging you in my head. I wasn't having,

827
00:44:13,400 --> 00:44:15,440
Speaker 2: you know, but shripping grits.

828
00:44:15,480 --> 00:44:15,640
Speaker 3: You know.

829
00:44:15,800 --> 00:44:17,520
Speaker 2: I'm like, I was eating a crystal. It was just

830
00:44:17,520 --> 00:44:19,759
Speaker 2: like a quick thing anyway. Yeah, you gotta get the

831
00:44:19,800 --> 00:44:20,440
Speaker 2: dirty rice.

832
00:44:20,800 --> 00:44:25,840
Speaker 8: Yeah, I believe just like this topic.

833
00:44:27,120 --> 00:44:31,279
Speaker 2: Real quick. I was thinking with Thanksgiving coming up for

834
00:44:31,480 --> 00:44:35,800
Speaker 2: talk back Tuesday, do you guys what kind of sides? Okay,

835
00:44:35,960 --> 00:44:39,799
Speaker 2: that's Thanksgiving because that's a sword that people will die

836
00:44:39,880 --> 00:44:43,400
Speaker 2: on whether it's what should or should not be included.

837
00:44:43,440 --> 00:44:46,840
Speaker 2: I'm really hot about stuffing.

838
00:44:47,600 --> 00:44:49,799
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, my friends make so much fun of me.

839
00:44:49,920 --> 00:44:52,680
Speaker 3: I don't listen when you stuff a bird and you

840
00:44:52,680 --> 00:44:54,560
Speaker 3: you know, like most people cook their stuffing in the

841
00:44:54,560 --> 00:44:56,399
Speaker 3: bird grosses me out.

842
00:44:56,600 --> 00:45:00,359
Speaker 8: Yeah, I don't think you're supposed. Isn't there a rule

843
00:45:00,360 --> 00:45:02,200
Speaker 8: they change that? Because did they change it?

844
00:45:02,200 --> 00:45:04,520
Speaker 2: It's nasty? Well it's supposed.

845
00:45:08,600 --> 00:45:10,719
Speaker 7: I don't like that to the side, but I'm with you.

846
00:45:10,800 --> 00:45:13,520
Speaker 7: It doesn't belong to it should be on the side.

847
00:45:13,560 --> 00:45:16,919
Speaker 3: And so growing up, my growing up, I mean, I'm old, okay,

848
00:45:16,960 --> 00:45:19,680
Speaker 3: so I'm I'm in my fifties now, and so growing

849
00:45:19,760 --> 00:45:21,279
Speaker 3: up my we would always have the stuffing in the

850
00:45:21,280 --> 00:45:23,560
Speaker 3: bird and I always would just get totally grossed out.

851
00:45:24,040 --> 00:45:27,759
Speaker 3: So I got really accustomed to stovetop, and if it's

852
00:45:27,800 --> 00:45:28,920
Speaker 3: not stove top, I.

853
00:45:28,920 --> 00:45:31,840
Speaker 2: Don't want it. I'm ting I'm going to my friend Tiffany's.

854
00:45:32,360 --> 00:45:34,239
Speaker 3: I'm going to my friend Tifany's and she's making a

855
00:45:34,360 --> 00:45:38,520
Speaker 3: beautiful stuffing and a thing of stovetop just for me.

856
00:45:39,480 --> 00:45:43,120
Speaker 2: I'm oh, isn't that so sweet? That's very find isn't

857
00:45:43,120 --> 00:45:47,120
Speaker 2: that so sweet? What's your side of choice? So simple?

858
00:45:47,320 --> 00:45:50,680
Speaker 2: Mashed potatoes? Oh yeah, that's love. But I just I

859
00:45:50,719 --> 00:45:55,840
Speaker 2: love them. I yeah, it's a ritual. But also the stuffing,

860
00:45:56,000 --> 00:45:58,920
Speaker 2: which you would not like, but I do bulk Italian

861
00:45:59,000 --> 00:46:05,160
Speaker 2: sausage and some opera colle. Yeah, just sage and it's

862
00:46:05,680 --> 00:46:09,640
Speaker 2: I come over, Yeah, please do. It's my aunt's recipe

863
00:46:09,680 --> 00:46:10,520
Speaker 2: and we all make it.

864
00:46:10,960 --> 00:46:14,680
Speaker 3: You guys seen about this the trend right now by

865
00:46:14,840 --> 00:46:20,520
Speaker 3: disposable muffin tins, and that's what people are putting there. Yeah,

866
00:46:20,719 --> 00:46:22,799
Speaker 3: that's what people are putting leftovers in. And to have

867
00:46:22,840 --> 00:46:24,920
Speaker 3: their friends go home in a little little.

868
00:46:24,800 --> 00:46:27,840
Speaker 7: Six pack, little six packs of those, Yeah, good, love.

869
00:46:27,680 --> 00:46:31,960
Speaker 3: It, little six pack anyway, stick around coming up after

870
00:46:32,040 --> 00:46:35,200
Speaker 3: the break, a chilling twist in the Celeste Reva's case,

871
00:46:35,280 --> 00:46:38,920
Speaker 3: plus the latest newly identified serial killer, and don't forget.

872
00:46:39,160 --> 00:46:40,880
Speaker 3: Call us at eighty eight thirty Girl on Crime to

873
00:46:40,920 --> 00:46:54,520
Speaker 3: share your thoughts on any of tonight's topics. This is

874
00:46:54,560 --> 00:46:57,720
Speaker 3: your Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio, where we're talking true crime

875
00:46:57,880 --> 00:46:59,640
Speaker 3: all the time. I'm body moving and I'm here with

876
00:46:59,680 --> 00:47:05,200
Speaker 3: Purdue U, Sir Extraordinary Courtney Armstrong and producer Taha. Look

877
00:47:05,200 --> 00:47:08,000
Speaker 3: at I'm surrounded by producer. Somebody help me, Somebody help me.

878
00:47:08,000 --> 00:47:10,839
Speaker 3: I'm being held passes by the producers. Don't forget. If

879
00:47:10,880 --> 00:47:13,480
Speaker 3: you miss any part of tonight's show, you could always

880
00:47:13,520 --> 00:47:14,440
Speaker 3: catch the podcast.

881
00:47:14,560 --> 00:47:15,840
Speaker 4: We also want to hear from you. Give us a

882
00:47:15,880 --> 00:47:17,560
Speaker 4: call at eighty eight three.

883
00:47:17,640 --> 00:47:20,959
Speaker 3: One Crime, or get with us on socials at True

884
00:47:20,960 --> 00:47:24,839
Speaker 3: Crime Tonight's Show on TikTok and Instagram and True Crime

885
00:47:24,880 --> 00:47:27,120
Speaker 3: Tonight on Facebook. You know, listen, Sometimes you don't want

886
00:47:27,120 --> 00:47:29,480
Speaker 3: to call. Sometimes you just want to send somebody a message.

887
00:47:29,719 --> 00:47:31,360
Speaker 3: That's where you can do it. Send us a message,

888
00:47:31,400 --> 00:47:34,040
Speaker 3: We'll read it on the air. Let's go ahead talk

889
00:47:34,040 --> 00:47:36,600
Speaker 3: about why.

890
00:47:35,719 --> 00:47:38,600
Speaker 10: Hi, ladies, Ali from Orlando. I had a question. You

891
00:47:38,680 --> 00:47:42,200
Speaker 10: guys are talking about David the pop star and how

892
00:47:42,239 --> 00:47:46,360
Speaker 10: he was ripped off of his world tour when this happened.

893
00:47:47,080 --> 00:47:50,080
Speaker 10: When you say ripped off of his world tour, did

894
00:47:50,120 --> 00:47:54,080
Speaker 10: he decide to cancel his world tour or did someone

895
00:47:54,200 --> 00:47:58,640
Speaker 10: force him to cancel his world tour? Just Carrie us, Thanks,

896
00:47:58,680 --> 00:47:59,239
Speaker 10: have a good night.

897
00:47:59,280 --> 00:48:02,920
Speaker 8: Important to see right, Yeah, Ali, that's a good one,

898
00:48:03,120 --> 00:48:07,680
Speaker 8: very well. I question time that one. We did a

899
00:48:07,680 --> 00:48:10,319
Speaker 8: little research. Think well, let's think ava. Avid did some

900
00:48:10,360 --> 00:48:12,479
Speaker 8: research and pulled some fast for us and talked about

901
00:48:12,480 --> 00:48:15,680
Speaker 8: it a little bit. But just as a reminder, David

902
00:48:15,760 --> 00:48:19,520
Speaker 8: the pop star who has been involved with the whole

903
00:48:19,640 --> 00:48:24,520
Speaker 8: case involving celestrit As Hernandez, the fourteen year old who

904
00:48:25,120 --> 00:48:27,720
Speaker 8: was found in the trunk of his car, He's.

905
00:48:27,560 --> 00:48:28,160
Speaker 2: A pop star.

906
00:48:28,560 --> 00:48:29,319
Speaker 7: He was up and coming.

907
00:48:29,360 --> 00:48:31,760
Speaker 8: A lot of us didn't know his music until then,

908
00:48:31,840 --> 00:48:34,319
Speaker 8: and so he started. He was, you know, on on

909
00:48:34,360 --> 00:48:37,400
Speaker 8: the horizon to move up to be something big, and

910
00:48:37,440 --> 00:48:38,040
Speaker 8: he had just.

911
00:48:37,960 --> 00:48:42,640
Speaker 7: Started a huge world tour. So after that incident, the

912
00:48:42,640 --> 00:48:46,239
Speaker 7: remaining dates of his tour were on September nineteenth, and

913
00:48:46,520 --> 00:48:50,480
Speaker 7: that was eleven days after her body was found. There

914
00:48:50,520 --> 00:48:54,480
Speaker 7: was no confirmation that he was legally forced to cancel,

915
00:48:54,600 --> 00:48:58,239
Speaker 7: so they pulled the plug and everything was canceled, you.

916
00:48:58,239 --> 00:49:02,399
Speaker 8: Know, David, Well, that's that's the question mark, whether it's

917
00:49:02,400 --> 00:49:05,279
Speaker 8: his team or whether he chose to do it. So

918
00:49:05,640 --> 00:49:08,360
Speaker 8: we don't have anything specific, but we all know for

919
00:49:08,400 --> 00:49:11,600
Speaker 8: the fact that his label put the album release on

920
00:49:11,760 --> 00:49:15,120
Speaker 8: pause and a lot of the promotional activities were suspended.

921
00:49:15,560 --> 00:49:18,280
Speaker 8: That to me says the label did it and tries

922
00:49:18,360 --> 00:49:19,840
Speaker 8: to probably pull the world for.

923
00:49:20,040 --> 00:49:22,000
Speaker 4: Or the sponsors or you know something.

924
00:49:22,200 --> 00:49:22,359
Speaker 7: Right.

925
00:49:22,520 --> 00:49:25,840
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, because in the same breath you're promoting a

926
00:49:26,000 --> 00:49:30,920
Speaker 2: concert and hearing about, you know, a deceased minor.

927
00:49:31,200 --> 00:49:35,120
Speaker 8: That's not a good And I remember when this first happened,

928
00:49:35,160 --> 00:49:37,759
Speaker 8: he still had just done a show or two and

929
00:49:37,800 --> 00:49:40,320
Speaker 8: it felt a little odd. It just felt in towards

930
00:49:40,360 --> 00:49:43,040
Speaker 8: me that anything was still going on. So if I

931
00:49:43,080 --> 00:49:46,920
Speaker 8: had to bet money, it's that he wanted to continue.

932
00:49:46,920 --> 00:49:48,919
Speaker 8: But someone said, this is not a good look.

933
00:49:48,960 --> 00:49:51,520
Speaker 2: You need to sup it's optically we have to stop.

934
00:49:51,480 --> 00:49:54,040
Speaker 8: Exactly so, right, But that makes sense. That's that's what

935
00:49:54,120 --> 00:49:55,839
Speaker 8: I think. But that was a great talk back. And

936
00:49:55,880 --> 00:49:58,720
Speaker 8: I think there's some news that everyone has been talking

937
00:49:58,760 --> 00:50:02,640
Speaker 8: about the team has said about right Courtney, what's going on?

938
00:50:02,960 --> 00:50:07,360
Speaker 2: Okay, So this is controversial and will underline that it's

939
00:50:07,440 --> 00:50:14,120
Speaker 2: TMZ is reporting this. Who TMZ does largely absolutely phenomenal, amazing.

940
00:50:14,360 --> 00:50:17,359
Speaker 2: It's kind of crazy, actually, it really is. They break

941
00:50:17,400 --> 00:50:20,480
Speaker 2: it before and break very quickly. Yeah, an act and

942
00:50:20,600 --> 00:50:25,520
Speaker 2: very largely incredibly accurately. This one's a little controversial. In

943
00:50:25,520 --> 00:50:29,319
Speaker 2: a TMZ report, the claim is that the body of

944
00:50:29,400 --> 00:50:35,759
Speaker 2: poor fourteen year old Celestevas Hernandez had been frozen, so

945
00:50:36,120 --> 00:50:40,480
Speaker 2: of course celest reevs. Hernandez. She has been missing since

946
00:50:40,520 --> 00:50:44,320
Speaker 2: April of twenty twenty four from her home in Lake Elsinore.

947
00:50:44,800 --> 00:50:48,799
Speaker 2: It's another place in Los Angeles. She was thirteen at

948
00:50:48,800 --> 00:50:51,480
Speaker 2: the time, and it was September of this year when

949
00:50:51,520 --> 00:50:55,800
Speaker 2: she was discovered inside the front trunk of David the

950
00:50:55,800 --> 00:51:00,880
Speaker 2: pop Stars Tesla authorities are investing getting her death as

951
00:51:00,880 --> 00:51:03,759
Speaker 2: a homicide and if you guys remember that took a

952
00:51:03,840 --> 00:51:08,640
Speaker 2: really long time to even get to it being called

953
00:51:08,640 --> 00:51:14,440
Speaker 2: a homicide, and apparently the focusing on her connection to

954
00:51:14,640 --> 00:51:19,360
Speaker 2: musician David as a possible accomplice, as well as suspicious

955
00:51:19,400 --> 00:51:22,759
Speaker 2: activities linked to the handling of her body. So what

956
00:51:22,800 --> 00:51:25,279
Speaker 2: do you guys think about this like, Boddy, what's your

957
00:51:25,360 --> 00:51:27,080
Speaker 2: knee jerk? I don't.

958
00:51:27,120 --> 00:51:30,520
Speaker 3: I mean, so my knee jerk is that they think

959
00:51:30,560 --> 00:51:34,879
Speaker 3: she was frozen and wow, that's interesting. So they would

960
00:51:34,880 --> 00:51:39,600
Speaker 3: be able to tell from her tissue. Right, listen, Timu

961
00:51:39,680 --> 00:51:43,120
Speaker 3: Joseph is on the case. Okay, that's me. They would

962
00:51:43,160 --> 00:51:45,359
Speaker 3: be able to tell from her tissue had she been

963
00:51:45,440 --> 00:51:51,360
Speaker 3: frozen and for lack of a better term, thought right, yep,

964
00:51:51,480 --> 00:51:53,279
Speaker 3: you she would. They would be able to tell from that.

965
00:51:53,440 --> 00:51:57,279
Speaker 3: So if if what they're saying is true, again that

966
00:51:57,360 --> 00:52:00,720
Speaker 3: this is LAPD sources, right, we don't have an official

967
00:52:00,719 --> 00:52:05,040
Speaker 3: statement from the LAPD. And another thing that is really

968
00:52:05,080 --> 00:52:09,399
Speaker 3: interesting is Stephen Fisher, the private investigator that was hired

969
00:52:09,400 --> 00:52:12,319
Speaker 3: by the landlord of the home that David was staying in,

970
00:52:12,880 --> 00:52:16,239
Speaker 3: has been pretty like spot on with everything so far

971
00:52:17,000 --> 00:52:19,040
Speaker 3: and what he is saying on his Twitter, and you

972
00:52:19,080 --> 00:52:21,799
Speaker 3: can go to his Twitter and look at it. It's

973
00:52:22,040 --> 00:52:26,560
Speaker 3: sf Underscore Investigates on Twitter, and he's saying that TMC's

974
00:52:26,600 --> 00:52:30,880
Speaker 3: getting trolled. He's saying, you know, like, no, this is

975
00:52:30,920 --> 00:52:34,000
Speaker 3: not correct. He's not saying what he does know, but

976
00:52:34,120 --> 00:52:37,960
Speaker 3: he is saying that this information is correct or incorrect. Now,

977
00:52:38,000 --> 00:52:39,800
Speaker 3: I don't know how he would know, you know what

978
00:52:39,840 --> 00:52:42,680
Speaker 3: I mean, Like, I'm just I'm just telling you what

979
00:52:42,760 --> 00:52:45,640
Speaker 3: I'm seeing right like out on the internet.

980
00:52:45,960 --> 00:52:49,360
Speaker 2: And TMZ is saying this is our sourcing, and our sourcing.

981
00:52:49,040 --> 00:52:53,399
Speaker 3: Is LAPD, you know within the LPD, and Fisher, who's

982
00:52:53,440 --> 00:52:56,440
Speaker 3: working on the investigation on behalf the landlord where David lived,

983
00:52:56,600 --> 00:53:00,399
Speaker 3: is saying, no, that's not true. Well yeah, he's saying

984
00:53:00,400 --> 00:53:01,120
Speaker 3: they're being trolled.

985
00:53:01,360 --> 00:53:05,239
Speaker 2: Well yeah, the specific quote, so we're not mincing his

986
00:53:05,360 --> 00:53:11,520
Speaker 2: words of is watching a rag tabloid get trolled would

987
00:53:11,560 --> 00:53:16,280
Speaker 2: be hilarious under almost any circumstance beside at the expense

988
00:53:16,320 --> 00:53:21,720
Speaker 2: of a teenager. So that is what he said. There's David.

989
00:53:21,840 --> 00:53:24,040
Speaker 2: There is no mention of seless Revaz to be clear,

990
00:53:24,400 --> 00:53:25,319
Speaker 2: but you know.

991
00:53:25,320 --> 00:53:28,120
Speaker 8: And body just because people out there, you know, someone

992
00:53:28,400 --> 00:53:30,200
Speaker 8: an older person may not know what trolled is, like

993
00:53:30,239 --> 00:53:32,640
Speaker 8: what exactly what is happening with that?

994
00:53:32,800 --> 00:53:34,400
Speaker 7: Is that someone just doing that.

995
00:53:35,160 --> 00:53:37,440
Speaker 3: Some people do things like that because it makes them

996
00:53:37,440 --> 00:53:42,560
Speaker 3: feel powerful. Some people make up stories people. You know,

997
00:53:42,640 --> 00:53:46,719
Speaker 3: there's actual troll teens wow, that try to come up

998
00:53:46,760 --> 00:53:48,880
Speaker 3: with the most you know, they sit in discord all

999
00:53:48,960 --> 00:53:52,960
Speaker 3: day long and try to get their story whatever story

1000
00:53:52,960 --> 00:53:55,319
Speaker 3: they want out there, they just want people to repeat it,

1001
00:53:55,880 --> 00:53:58,000
Speaker 3: So you have to be really careful. Yeah, we have

1002
00:53:58,040 --> 00:53:59,799
Speaker 3: to be really careful. In fact, when we start doing

1003
00:54:00,320 --> 00:54:04,840
Speaker 3: live Collins, it made me really nervous because I was like, oh, controlled,

1004
00:54:04,840 --> 00:54:09,120
Speaker 3: you know, so people just make stuff up. But the

1005
00:54:09,160 --> 00:54:14,240
Speaker 3: thing is is TMZ I just can't imagine that. I mean, listen,

1006
00:54:14,239 --> 00:54:16,319
Speaker 3: they are a rag right they are, but they have

1007
00:54:16,400 --> 00:54:19,600
Speaker 3: been pretty good with a lot. You know, they were

1008
00:54:19,640 --> 00:54:22,799
Speaker 3: the first to break Cody Kobe Bryant. They were the

1009
00:54:22,840 --> 00:54:24,040
Speaker 3: first to break that.

1010
00:54:25,600 --> 00:54:25,880
Speaker 2: They have.

1011
00:54:26,520 --> 00:54:28,719
Speaker 4: I mean, yeah, listen, they are They do gossip about

1012
00:54:28,719 --> 00:54:32,080
Speaker 4: celebrities one hundred percent, but they also do kind of

1013
00:54:32,120 --> 00:54:34,360
Speaker 4: have breaking news that is pretty spot on.

1014
00:54:35,280 --> 00:54:39,080
Speaker 2: Their accuracy is unbelievable. So just a few of the

1015
00:54:39,120 --> 00:54:43,719
Speaker 2: details to share what has been reported by TMZ, so

1016
00:54:43,800 --> 00:54:51,200
Speaker 2: again that selest body was partially frozen, and that this

1017
00:54:51,400 --> 00:54:55,920
Speaker 2: is rough her decomposing body parts, including a head and torso,

1018
00:54:56,560 --> 00:55:00,480
Speaker 2: which indicates they were separated, had been thawing out in

1019
00:55:00,680 --> 00:55:06,080
Speaker 2: the front. The front trunk and the frozen state may

1020
00:55:06,120 --> 00:55:09,040
Speaker 2: make it difficult for Corners to establish an actual cause

1021
00:55:09,080 --> 00:55:09,640
Speaker 2: of death.

1022
00:55:10,320 --> 00:55:10,800
Speaker 7: I guess.

1023
00:55:11,040 --> 00:55:14,160
Speaker 2: I mean it's been reported by We'll have to ask.

1024
00:55:15,160 --> 00:55:18,239
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, can we put a pin in that to

1025
00:55:18,320 --> 00:55:21,160
Speaker 3: talk to Joseph about that when he has return Yeah, I.

1026
00:55:21,080 --> 00:55:23,120
Speaker 8: Would love to do that because also, like I was

1027
00:55:23,160 --> 00:55:25,680
Speaker 8: just trying to, you know, unpack it a little and

1028
00:55:25,719 --> 00:55:28,640
Speaker 8: just if this was true, like why and when would

1029
00:55:28,680 --> 00:55:31,759
Speaker 8: the frozen heart come about? Is it maybe she died

1030
00:55:31,800 --> 00:55:33,920
Speaker 8: they put the body in a storage place because this

1031
00:55:34,040 --> 00:55:36,680
Speaker 8: is during that heat wavy time period, and maybe they

1032
00:55:36,800 --> 00:55:39,520
Speaker 8: put that there, but who knows. It's something that we

1033
00:55:39,560 --> 00:55:41,920
Speaker 8: can sort of talk to him with a little bit

1034
00:55:41,920 --> 00:55:44,280
Speaker 8: about since there's even a logical not that there's anything

1035
00:55:44,320 --> 00:55:46,799
Speaker 8: logical about this at all, but any theory as to

1036
00:55:46,960 --> 00:55:49,799
Speaker 8: why someone would have tried to put the body there

1037
00:55:49,880 --> 00:55:51,240
Speaker 8: in a fezer or whatever.

1038
00:55:51,400 --> 00:55:53,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, right, So I think it's a great idea of body.

1039
00:55:54,040 --> 00:55:57,279
Speaker 2: So we'll table it. Except there's one one interesting non

1040
00:55:57,360 --> 00:56:01,960
Speaker 2: forensic thing. TMZ said that investigators are looking into a

1041
00:56:01,960 --> 00:56:05,239
Speaker 2: specific trip that David made and this was to a

1042
00:56:05,360 --> 00:56:09,359
Speaker 2: remote area of Santa Barbara County. So that's about an

1043
00:56:09,400 --> 00:56:12,000
Speaker 2: hour and a half from Los Angeles, and that was

1044
00:56:12,040 --> 00:56:14,560
Speaker 2: in the spring of twenty twenty five. It was in

1045
00:56:14,600 --> 00:56:18,520
Speaker 2: the middle of the night, and he reportedly spent several

1046
00:56:18,600 --> 00:56:23,360
Speaker 2: hours in that remote area, so we'll see this is

1047
00:56:23,440 --> 00:56:26,680
Speaker 2: what's being We don't know it is any kind.

1048
00:56:26,560 --> 00:56:27,080
Speaker 7: Of a fact.

1049
00:56:27,160 --> 00:56:28,799
Speaker 4: I mean, let's can we talk about this.

1050
00:56:28,880 --> 00:56:30,799
Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, let's unpackica.

1051
00:56:31,560 --> 00:56:36,160
Speaker 3: So the idea is that he goes to this remote

1052
00:56:36,160 --> 00:56:40,919
Speaker 3: area in Santa Barbara and does what because so less

1053
00:56:41,120 --> 00:56:44,080
Speaker 3: it was she wasn't buried out there right, correct, Like

1054
00:56:44,120 --> 00:56:46,480
Speaker 3: what is he doing out in you know what I mean?

1055
00:56:47,000 --> 00:56:48,960
Speaker 4: Unless maybe that's where this happened.

1056
00:56:49,360 --> 00:56:52,040
Speaker 3: Although if something like this did happen and she was dismembered,

1057
00:56:52,080 --> 00:56:54,239
Speaker 3: it would be a lot longer than several hours. I

1058
00:56:54,280 --> 00:56:57,000
Speaker 3: mean it would meanwhile, So I don't know, I don't

1059
00:56:57,040 --> 00:57:00,239
Speaker 3: know what, listen, I don't know what to believe the

1060
00:57:00,280 --> 00:57:02,680
Speaker 3: same unless we hear something from LAPD, I'm just like,

1061
00:57:03,920 --> 00:57:04,879
Speaker 3: right at this.

1062
00:57:04,840 --> 00:57:07,360
Speaker 8: Point, goos crossed we hear something soon from them, because

1063
00:57:07,400 --> 00:57:10,000
Speaker 8: I feel like we have been going on about this

1064
00:57:10,080 --> 00:57:12,320
Speaker 8: since the summer, and I would love to know something

1065
00:57:12,320 --> 00:57:14,440
Speaker 8: by I'm sure the family would like to know.

1066
00:57:14,320 --> 00:57:17,000
Speaker 7: Something by the yeah, the holidays at least.

1067
00:57:17,080 --> 00:57:19,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'd like to know what the you know, the

1068
00:57:19,040 --> 00:57:21,160
Speaker 3: listeners think, what do you know? What do we do

1069
00:57:21,200 --> 00:57:23,320
Speaker 3: in situations like this? You know, who do we believe

1070
00:57:24,760 --> 00:57:26,960
Speaker 3: you know, and there's nothing. There's nothing to look up,

1071
00:57:27,000 --> 00:57:30,840
Speaker 3: there's nothing really to you know, there's nothing to get verification.

1072
00:57:31,080 --> 00:57:32,919
Speaker 3: So give us a call eight at eight thirty one

1073
00:57:32,960 --> 00:57:37,200
Speaker 3: crime or hit us on the talkbox in the iHeartRadio app. Courtney,

1074
00:57:37,280 --> 00:57:41,800
Speaker 3: I understand that there's another case. Let's talk about Kevin Leno.

1075
00:57:42,520 --> 00:57:45,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, Kevin Lino. So he's a man, he's thirty eight

1076
00:57:45,680 --> 00:57:50,560
Speaker 2: years old, and he was already serving time for two murders. Well,

1077
00:57:50,920 --> 00:57:53,920
Speaker 2: this is what we were referring to as a potential

1078
00:57:54,080 --> 00:58:00,280
Speaker 2: new serial killer because while serving Timeleno has been charged

1079
00:58:00,280 --> 00:58:04,160
Speaker 2: with killing two additional men in Massachusetts. So this leads

1080
00:58:04,200 --> 00:58:06,720
Speaker 2: authorities to label him as a serial killer.

1081
00:58:08,040 --> 00:58:10,320
Speaker 3: So they're so, okay, So he's in jail for two

1082
00:58:10,440 --> 00:58:14,840
Speaker 3: already correct, correct, and then he's been linked to additional.

1083
00:58:15,000 --> 00:58:19,800
Speaker 2: Correct, he's been charged. He's been charged. Oh, he's been charged, correct,

1084
00:58:19,880 --> 00:58:23,960
Speaker 2: with killing two additional men in Massachusetts. Okay, all right,

1085
00:58:24,400 --> 00:58:28,280
Speaker 2: let's hear about this. Yeah, Soleno previously was convicted for

1086
00:58:28,440 --> 00:58:33,000
Speaker 2: murdering normand Verrier, and this was in Boston back in

1087
00:58:33,000 --> 00:58:37,880
Speaker 2: twenty twelve, as well as Jack Berry in Missoula, Montana

1088
00:58:38,000 --> 00:58:41,840
Speaker 2: in twenty fourteen. Obviously that's very far apart from each other.

1089
00:58:42,600 --> 00:58:47,720
Speaker 2: So at the time, all three men were experiencing homelessness,

1090
00:58:47,760 --> 00:58:52,000
Speaker 2: so both the perpetrator Lino and his two victims. So

1091
00:58:52,400 --> 00:58:57,000
Speaker 2: now the update is Lino is accused of killing Gary

1092
00:58:57,800 --> 00:59:03,400
Speaker 2: Malanson in twenty ten and Douglas Clark also in twenty twelve,

1093
00:59:05,320 --> 00:59:08,200
Speaker 2: and this is just a sad state of affairs. So

1094
00:59:08,360 --> 00:59:12,640
Speaker 2: apparently both of those two men as well were homeless,

1095
00:59:13,360 --> 00:59:18,240
Speaker 2: and investigators are suspecting that there may be additional victims.

1096
00:59:19,960 --> 00:59:24,080
Speaker 7: And remind everyone body for a serial killer, is there

1097
00:59:24,160 --> 00:59:25,120
Speaker 7: a specific number?

1098
00:59:25,200 --> 00:59:27,720
Speaker 2: Is it three? It varies?

1099
00:59:27,800 --> 00:59:30,480
Speaker 3: I mean, it depends on what texts you look at,

1100
00:59:30,480 --> 00:59:32,479
Speaker 3: but it's anywhere two or more.

1101
00:59:32,600 --> 00:59:34,280
Speaker 4: Sometimes people say three or more.

1102
00:59:34,800 --> 00:59:39,160
Speaker 3: Oftentimes it's three or more with a cooling off period.

1103
00:59:39,840 --> 00:59:42,080
Speaker 3: And this would fit that one hundred percent because we

1104
00:59:42,120 --> 00:59:46,000
Speaker 3: have twenty ten, twenty twelve, in twenty fourteen, right, these

1105
00:59:46,040 --> 00:59:48,600
Speaker 3: are all the different years. I'm just wondering do we

1106
00:59:48,760 --> 00:59:51,600
Speaker 3: know yet. I don't know that it's been even released

1107
00:59:52,320 --> 00:59:53,640
Speaker 3: of what links all these together.

1108
00:59:55,440 --> 01:00:00,720
Speaker 2: So I know that in twenty ten victim Gary Milanson,

1109
01:00:00,920 --> 01:00:03,760
Speaker 2: he was allegedly killed by Lino, and this was at

1110
01:00:03,800 --> 01:00:09,160
Speaker 2: a homeless encampment and Lino reportedly struck the victim repeatedly

1111
01:00:09,160 --> 01:00:12,760
Speaker 2: with a metal baseball bat, and this was after Leno

1112
01:00:12,840 --> 01:00:18,840
Speaker 2: had gotten upset that fires were being lit and drawing

1113
01:00:18,920 --> 01:00:25,760
Speaker 2: unwanted attention. And you know, it's interesting because they are different.

1114
01:00:25,880 --> 01:00:31,000
Speaker 2: In twenty twelve, there was another conviction. It's a little

1115
01:00:31,080 --> 01:00:35,040
Speaker 2: unclear what the manner was, but yeah, go ahead.

1116
01:00:35,640 --> 01:00:37,880
Speaker 3: I just wonder if it's like, is it the victim

1117
01:00:38,160 --> 01:00:40,120
Speaker 3: like being homeless, Like is there DNA?

1118
01:00:40,480 --> 01:00:42,360
Speaker 2: Like why do they think.

1119
01:00:43,000 --> 01:00:44,360
Speaker 7: He's connected to all of them?

1120
01:00:44,400 --> 01:00:46,840
Speaker 8: Yeah, we're gonna have to look into whether it was

1121
01:00:47,440 --> 01:00:50,000
Speaker 8: a DNA connection or him.

1122
01:00:50,200 --> 01:00:51,320
Speaker 2: I don't think it's DNA.

1123
01:00:51,360 --> 01:00:53,600
Speaker 3: And the only reason I say that, and I'm bringing

1124
01:00:53,640 --> 01:00:57,200
Speaker 3: this up intentionally, I want people to start thinking, like

1125
01:00:57,240 --> 01:00:58,880
Speaker 3: when we're talking about these things, I want people to

1126
01:00:58,920 --> 01:01:02,600
Speaker 3: start thinking like, it can't it's probably not DNA because

1127
01:01:02,640 --> 01:01:04,560
Speaker 3: it was and they ran it through Cotis he would

1128
01:01:04,560 --> 01:01:08,880
Speaker 3: have appeared, right, so probably not. So it's okay, you know,

1129
01:01:09,960 --> 01:01:13,680
Speaker 3: start thinking like that, right, Yeah, yeah, okay.

1130
01:01:14,080 --> 01:01:17,560
Speaker 7: The lessons continued, right, moved also.

1131
01:01:17,480 --> 01:01:21,480
Speaker 2: Here and the them o the modus operande is is

1132
01:01:21,560 --> 01:01:26,400
Speaker 2: different again. That was used and then in another situation,

1133
01:01:27,160 --> 01:01:32,440
Speaker 2: apparently Lino intentionally gave Douglas Clark a fatal dose of

1134
01:01:32,520 --> 01:01:36,400
Speaker 2: heroin referred to as a hot shot, which that is

1135
01:01:36,440 --> 01:01:40,400
Speaker 2: actually a new term for me. So I'm not sure

1136
01:01:40,400 --> 01:01:43,560
Speaker 2: if it's personal connections or people. It's probably the victimology.

1137
01:01:43,560 --> 01:01:49,920
Speaker 3: They're all homeless and their risk profile, right, like, okay, And.

1138
01:01:50,080 --> 01:01:53,000
Speaker 8: I was reading some of the article. Investigators later learned

1139
01:01:53,000 --> 01:01:55,439
Speaker 8: that he was linked to some of these. So I'm

1140
01:01:55,440 --> 01:02:00,240
Speaker 8: wondering if because he's incarcerated, maybe he's talked to someone

1141
01:02:00,280 --> 01:02:00,600
Speaker 8: else there.

1142
01:02:00,640 --> 01:02:01,520
Speaker 2: I don't know that there could be.

1143
01:02:01,640 --> 01:02:03,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'd love to put I'd love to put this

1144
01:02:03,880 --> 01:02:07,120
Speaker 3: on our radar to keep following, Yeah, as it develops,

1145
01:02:07,160 --> 01:02:09,040
Speaker 3: you know, so that we can each to talk about

1146
01:02:09,040 --> 01:02:12,640
Speaker 3: it and you know, explore with the audience some of

1147
01:02:12,640 --> 01:02:14,800
Speaker 3: the evidence and you know, things that they're finding. Me

1148
01:02:14,800 --> 01:02:18,560
Speaker 3: because like, if this truly is accurate and a serial

1149
01:02:18,640 --> 01:02:21,520
Speaker 3: killer discovery, like this is a big deal.

1150
01:02:22,000 --> 01:02:23,360
Speaker 7: Mm hmm. Yeah.

1151
01:02:23,400 --> 01:02:27,919
Speaker 2: Absolutely, Well keep it here because coming up, Buddy will

1152
01:02:27,920 --> 01:02:32,440
Speaker 2: be schooling us on metadata and we have that and

1153
01:02:32,520 --> 01:02:45,840
Speaker 2: a lot more on True Crime tonight. Welcome back to

1154
01:02:45,840 --> 01:02:48,840
Speaker 2: True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio, where we talk true crime

1155
01:02:48,960 --> 01:02:52,520
Speaker 2: all the time. I'm Courtney Armstrong. I'm here with my

1156
01:02:52,640 --> 01:02:55,200
Speaker 2: buddy buddy move in and don't forget if you have

1157
01:02:55,320 --> 01:02:57,560
Speaker 2: missed any part of the show, No Sweat. You can

1158
01:02:57,600 --> 01:03:00,760
Speaker 2: always catch us on the podcast and we want to

1159
01:03:00,800 --> 01:03:03,360
Speaker 2: hear from you. Always give us a call. We're at

1160
01:03:03,360 --> 01:03:06,040
Speaker 2: eight to eight through One Crime, or you can always

1161
01:03:06,040 --> 01:03:08,560
Speaker 2: get with us on socials. We do read and love

1162
01:03:08,600 --> 01:03:12,120
Speaker 2: your dms and that is at True Crime Tonight's show

1163
01:03:12,280 --> 01:03:15,600
Speaker 2: on TikTok and Instagram and True Crime Tonight on Facebook.

1164
01:03:16,120 --> 01:03:19,880
Speaker 2: And now I want to dive immediately into our scientific

1165
01:03:20,000 --> 01:03:24,600
Speaker 2: study with professor Body. Move in Body.

1166
01:03:24,920 --> 01:03:26,840
Speaker 7: I'm excited. I've been so excited about.

1167
01:03:26,680 --> 01:03:29,560
Speaker 2: Rime Love with Body. It's a sitement. I love it.

1168
01:03:31,880 --> 01:03:34,680
Speaker 3: So we're you know, listen, I'm not qualified to talk

1169
01:03:34,720 --> 01:03:37,840
Speaker 3: about a lot of things, but I am qualified.

1170
01:03:37,400 --> 01:03:38,920
Speaker 2: To talk about data.

1171
01:03:39,520 --> 01:03:42,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's one thing I actually am qualified to talk about.

1172
01:03:43,400 --> 01:03:47,160
Speaker 3: And you know, listen, data can solve crimes. I'm convinced time.

1173
01:03:47,240 --> 01:03:51,600
Speaker 3: I believe in the timeline as an investigative tool, and

1174
01:03:51,840 --> 01:03:55,000
Speaker 3: I believe data when you look at it can solve crimes,

1175
01:03:55,080 --> 01:03:58,560
Speaker 3: not only in the minute details such as metadata or

1176
01:03:59,120 --> 01:04:01,560
Speaker 3: you know, a big picture looking top down on a

1177
01:04:01,560 --> 01:04:05,920
Speaker 3: ton of data. I believe it's essential and crime solving actually,

1178
01:04:06,080 --> 01:04:08,640
Speaker 3: But so let's get into metadata. What in the heck

1179
01:04:08,720 --> 01:04:11,000
Speaker 3: is metadata? And how does it affect me? Like, how

1180
01:04:11,000 --> 01:04:11,560
Speaker 3: do I you know?

1181
01:04:11,560 --> 01:04:12,000
Speaker 2: What is it?

1182
01:04:12,440 --> 01:04:12,720
Speaker 7: Okay?

1183
01:04:12,760 --> 01:04:16,560
Speaker 3: Medadata is just data about data. It's literally that's all

1184
01:04:16,560 --> 01:04:20,520
Speaker 3: it is. So it provides additional information about a particular

1185
01:04:20,600 --> 01:04:25,160
Speaker 3: piece of data, helping to organize, manage, and understand the information.

1186
01:04:25,920 --> 01:04:28,080
Speaker 3: So one of the examples that I like to use

1187
01:04:28,120 --> 01:04:29,960
Speaker 3: most when I talk about metadata when people don't know

1188
01:04:30,000 --> 01:04:32,360
Speaker 3: what it is is think of the metadata.

1189
01:04:31,960 --> 01:04:35,000
Speaker 4: Like a book, a hard copy of a book.

1190
01:04:35,440 --> 01:04:37,040
Speaker 3: You open it up and the first thing you see

1191
01:04:37,120 --> 01:04:40,000
Speaker 3: is like a table of contents, right, And it's like,

1192
01:04:40,400 --> 01:04:45,720
Speaker 3: that is metadata because it's describing how you know the

1193
01:04:45,720 --> 01:04:51,000
Speaker 3: book is organized, how you can find something easily, or

1194
01:04:51,040 --> 01:04:53,720
Speaker 3: an index you know, with different words and what page

1195
01:04:53,760 --> 01:04:54,920
Speaker 3: those words.

1196
01:04:54,560 --> 01:04:56,920
Speaker 2: You know are on. Sure, that's metadata.

1197
01:04:57,000 --> 01:05:00,680
Speaker 3: It's a data that describes how to find then locate

1198
01:05:00,800 --> 01:05:03,400
Speaker 3: the data in that book. Right, that's table of contents

1199
01:05:03,480 --> 01:05:07,280
Speaker 3: or an index. That's what metadata is. For an example,

1200
01:05:07,320 --> 01:05:11,040
Speaker 3: on your phone or your computer, call logs and text

1201
01:05:11,040 --> 01:05:14,720
Speaker 3: messages your phones call history is a perfect example of

1202
01:05:14,840 --> 01:05:20,480
Speaker 3: structured metadata. There's caller ID who called you. There's the timestamp,

1203
01:05:20,520 --> 01:05:25,120
Speaker 3: the duration, you know this data. Now if I look

1204
01:05:25,160 --> 01:05:27,840
Speaker 3: at Courtney's phone and I see that she was on

1205
01:05:27,960 --> 01:05:30,880
Speaker 3: the phone with Paha for three hours. I don't know

1206
01:05:30,880 --> 01:05:32,640
Speaker 3: what you guys were talking about, but I know you

1207
01:05:32,640 --> 01:05:34,040
Speaker 3: were on the call, right.

1208
01:05:34,720 --> 01:05:37,000
Speaker 2: It was largely about you, but of course.

1209
01:05:36,840 --> 01:05:37,200
Speaker 7: It was.

1210
01:05:38,720 --> 01:05:44,000
Speaker 3: Of course that's metadata. Okay, understood it, so totally that

1211
01:05:44,000 --> 01:05:47,240
Speaker 3: makes sense. Right, So there's this is why it's important

1212
01:05:47,400 --> 01:05:53,280
Speaker 3: though for me, right, So metadata can solve crimes, GPS

1213
01:05:53,400 --> 01:05:57,440
Speaker 3: data placing a suspect at a crime scene, GPS coordinates

1214
01:05:57,480 --> 01:06:02,200
Speaker 3: embedded in digital photos. For instance, when we were talking

1215
01:06:02,200 --> 01:06:04,640
Speaker 3: about this last week to how you mentioned Luca Mgnata

1216
01:06:04,760 --> 01:06:07,520
Speaker 3: and how we placed him, you know, at certain places,

1217
01:06:07,560 --> 01:06:13,320
Speaker 3: and that was because he uploaded photos to websites, not

1218
01:06:13,400 --> 01:06:17,440
Speaker 3: social media, but to websites that left his EXIF data

1219
01:06:17,440 --> 01:06:21,440
Speaker 3: and metadata intact and we were able to look at

1220
01:06:21,960 --> 01:06:24,200
Speaker 3: not only where the photo was taken via GPS, but

1221
01:06:24,240 --> 01:06:27,440
Speaker 3: what kind of camera it was, what the serial number was.

1222
01:06:27,960 --> 01:06:30,320
Speaker 3: I was even able to tell it was a pink camera,

1223
01:06:30,640 --> 01:06:31,160
Speaker 3: do you know what I mean?

1224
01:06:31,200 --> 01:06:33,840
Speaker 2: Like, yeah, you could tell.

1225
01:06:33,920 --> 01:06:36,960
Speaker 3: Wow, I was only able to tell it was a

1226
01:06:37,000 --> 01:06:40,360
Speaker 3: pink camera because I had the make and model of

1227
01:06:40,400 --> 01:06:43,360
Speaker 3: the camera, and then I also had a photo of

1228
01:06:43,480 --> 01:06:45,560
Speaker 3: him taking a photo in a car and there was

1229
01:06:45,600 --> 01:06:46,840
Speaker 3: a reflection I could.

1230
01:06:46,640 --> 01:06:50,800
Speaker 2: See the That's incredible.

1231
01:06:50,960 --> 01:06:53,600
Speaker 3: It basically validated the data that I had found though,

1232
01:06:53,680 --> 01:06:56,560
Speaker 3: like I knew, Okay, this is definitely the camera. You know,

1233
01:06:56,600 --> 01:07:00,720
Speaker 3: it helped solidify things. It can It can be used

1234
01:07:00,760 --> 01:07:04,360
Speaker 3: to track movements. Law enforcement can use cell phone power data,

1235
01:07:04,920 --> 01:07:08,600
Speaker 3: Wi Fi router information to reconstruct a suspects movement and

1236
01:07:08,640 --> 01:07:12,320
Speaker 3: travel patterns over a period of time, identifying their personal

1237
01:07:12,320 --> 01:07:15,320
Speaker 3: habits and relationships. So I can look at Weltaha always

1238
01:07:15,320 --> 01:07:17,920
Speaker 3: goes to creator Joe's every Tuesday, you know, so I

1239
01:07:17,960 --> 01:07:24,000
Speaker 3: know it just it provides context to stuff. File authentication

1240
01:07:24,080 --> 01:07:27,920
Speaker 3: and timelines. I talk about timelines a lot. It verifies

1241
01:07:27,960 --> 01:07:32,840
Speaker 3: evidence and integrity metadata documents, a file's origin, creation date,

1242
01:07:33,760 --> 01:07:35,600
Speaker 3: what program was used to create it.

1243
01:07:35,760 --> 01:07:36,600
Speaker 2: You know this this.

1244
01:07:36,520 --> 01:07:39,880
Speaker 3: Document was created a Microsoft word, It was created by TAHA.

1245
01:07:40,960 --> 01:07:43,240
Speaker 3: It was done on this computer, and it was done

1246
01:07:43,240 --> 01:07:45,800
Speaker 3: on this date. There's five hundred and seventy six words.

1247
01:07:45,840 --> 01:07:46,840
Speaker 3: You know those kinds of things.

1248
01:07:46,920 --> 01:07:47,160
Speaker 2: Yep.

1249
01:07:47,840 --> 01:07:50,680
Speaker 3: And you know it also can identify devices like I

1250
01:07:50,720 --> 01:07:53,520
Speaker 3: just said, you know what the with the camera, it

1251
01:07:53,560 --> 01:07:58,680
Speaker 3: can help. Yeah, it can put physical device information in

1252
01:07:58,680 --> 01:08:00,120
Speaker 3: the hands of a suspect.

1253
01:08:00,080 --> 01:08:02,320
Speaker 2: And then does that Yeah, so then if you put

1254
01:08:02,360 --> 01:08:05,800
Speaker 2: the you know it's the canon three sixty nine to

1255
01:08:05,880 --> 01:08:08,840
Speaker 2: four making this up, and then a suspect happens to

1256
01:08:09,000 --> 01:08:11,480
Speaker 2: have that exact exact right.

1257
01:08:11,600 --> 01:08:14,480
Speaker 3: Because sometimes some exted data will also have the serial

1258
01:08:14,560 --> 01:08:19,439
Speaker 3: number of the camera that photo. Oh wow, which is interesting, right,

1259
01:08:19,600 --> 01:08:20,439
Speaker 3: It's very interesting.

1260
01:08:20,880 --> 01:08:21,960
Speaker 2: So there's a couple of cases.

1261
01:08:22,240 --> 01:08:23,960
Speaker 8: I was going to ask one quick question, I mean,

1262
01:08:24,200 --> 01:08:27,680
Speaker 8: jumping too far ahead, but like, as you're saying all

1263
01:08:27,720 --> 01:08:31,920
Speaker 8: of this, it makes me wonder, then criminals also know this.

1264
01:08:32,280 --> 01:08:32,360
Speaker 5: Cha.

1265
01:08:32,439 --> 01:08:35,160
Speaker 7: Have they gotten a little savvy about how to absolutely

1266
01:08:35,240 --> 01:08:36,280
Speaker 7: can you change?

1267
01:08:36,680 --> 01:08:39,679
Speaker 2: Yes? Metadata and metadata can be changed.

1268
01:08:39,720 --> 01:08:43,360
Speaker 3: So what Okay, listen, when you you you're a criminal,

1269
01:08:43,400 --> 01:08:43,960
Speaker 3: I'm coming in.

1270
01:08:44,040 --> 01:08:46,040
Speaker 4: I'm a cop. I'm taking all of your electronics.

1271
01:08:46,120 --> 01:08:49,000
Speaker 3: Right when I get back to the lab, the forensics,

1272
01:08:49,160 --> 01:08:53,000
Speaker 3: you know, data lab, I'm going to hash. I'm going

1273
01:08:53,040 --> 01:08:55,360
Speaker 3: to extract everything from the computer. I'm going to hash it.

1274
01:08:55,360 --> 01:08:59,040
Speaker 3: It's called a hash and it's basically a serial number. Listen,

1275
01:08:59,080 --> 01:09:01,559
Speaker 3: I'm oh, I'm over simplifying something very complicated.

1276
01:09:01,600 --> 01:09:03,040
Speaker 2: Please, but it's basically a.

1277
01:09:02,920 --> 01:09:06,160
Speaker 4: Serial number that it's a snapshot in time.

1278
01:09:06,240 --> 01:09:06,599
Speaker 2: Okay.

1279
01:09:06,920 --> 01:09:10,040
Speaker 3: Now we go to court, right, and the defense brings

1280
01:09:10,080 --> 01:09:13,040
Speaker 3: up the evidence to digital evidence. If that hash doesn't match,

1281
01:09:13,880 --> 01:09:18,519
Speaker 3: I know you've altered to metadata, but if you have

1282
01:09:19,360 --> 01:09:23,360
Speaker 3: altered the metadata prior to me running that hash, I

1283
01:09:23,400 --> 01:09:23,920
Speaker 3: may never know.

1284
01:09:24,800 --> 01:09:26,520
Speaker 7: Interesting, yeah, okay.

1285
01:09:26,280 --> 01:09:28,839
Speaker 2: Well, and that it's interesting that you brought that up, taha,

1286
01:09:28,880 --> 01:09:31,640
Speaker 2: because in the Ellen Greenberg case, which we've spoken so

1287
01:09:31,720 --> 01:09:35,000
Speaker 2: much about, and you know, happy to bring her name

1288
01:09:35,080 --> 01:09:38,360
Speaker 2: up in honor of Joseph this Sunday, But that was

1289
01:09:38,360 --> 01:09:41,400
Speaker 2: something in watching the documentary that one of I believe

1290
01:09:41,439 --> 01:09:46,520
Speaker 2: it was the investigators was saying, since the her devices

1291
01:09:46,600 --> 01:09:50,960
Speaker 2: were taken that metadata, that they couldn't trust if certain

1292
01:09:51,320 --> 01:09:55,400
Speaker 2: searches were planted or things that could make her look

1293
01:09:55,840 --> 01:09:58,599
Speaker 2: like he was having suicidal ideation, and they just couldn't.

1294
01:09:58,640 --> 01:10:00,679
Speaker 2: They didn't know period the end, if it was authentic

1295
01:10:00,800 --> 01:10:01,639
Speaker 2: or not. Right.

1296
01:10:02,240 --> 01:10:04,719
Speaker 3: Another really good example that we've been talking about fairly

1297
01:10:04,760 --> 01:10:09,400
Speaker 3: recently is Epstein and Epstein's death with the camera. The

1298
01:10:10,360 --> 01:10:12,320
Speaker 3: remember the surveillance of the cell, and there was like

1299
01:10:12,320 --> 01:10:16,400
Speaker 3: a minute missing minute, and those forensic analysts viewed the

1300
01:10:17,040 --> 01:10:19,719
Speaker 3: video information and it was found that it was edited

1301
01:10:19,720 --> 01:10:21,320
Speaker 3: by this person on this date.

1302
01:10:21,439 --> 01:10:25,520
Speaker 2: And that's another data that's all metal. Okay.

1303
01:10:25,680 --> 01:10:28,480
Speaker 3: So metadata is you use it and you don't even realize,

1304
01:10:28,720 --> 01:10:32,320
Speaker 3: and it's super important in helping figure things out. There's

1305
01:10:32,360 --> 01:10:34,679
Speaker 3: two cases that I want to talk about that I

1306
01:10:34,720 --> 01:10:36,840
Speaker 3: think I think most people know about, but they might

1307
01:10:36,840 --> 01:10:38,880
Speaker 3: not really understand how.

1308
01:10:39,520 --> 01:10:40,599
Speaker 2: Metadata, like.

1309
01:10:42,040 --> 01:10:46,800
Speaker 3: I wouldn't say, solve the cases, but they definitely impacted him.

1310
01:10:46,880 --> 01:10:49,880
Speaker 3: They definitely impacted him. The first one is BTK, and

1311
01:10:49,920 --> 01:10:51,960
Speaker 3: I've talked about this. People are probably tired of me

1312
01:10:52,000 --> 01:10:54,680
Speaker 3: talking about this, but one of the Denist Raider, one

1313
01:10:54,720 --> 01:10:57,960
Speaker 3: of the most prominent examples of metadata being crucial to

1314
01:10:58,000 --> 01:11:02,080
Speaker 3: a criminal case is BTK. This led to the arrest

1315
01:11:02,160 --> 01:11:05,679
Speaker 3: and the conviction of Denis Raider. For over thirty years,

1316
01:11:05,840 --> 01:11:09,719
Speaker 3: Denis Raider terrorized which you talked to Kansas, binding, torturing

1317
01:11:09,760 --> 01:11:14,200
Speaker 3: and killing ten people while successfully evading law enforcement and

1318
01:11:14,240 --> 01:11:17,719
Speaker 3: taunting them. He was known for sending these taunting letters

1319
01:11:17,720 --> 01:11:20,040
Speaker 3: and packages to police and the media, but he stopped

1320
01:11:20,080 --> 01:11:23,559
Speaker 3: for a period after nineteen ninety one. Well, in two

1321
01:11:23,600 --> 01:11:26,680
Speaker 3: thousand and four, he sent like a taunt to the

1322
01:11:26,720 --> 01:11:30,759
Speaker 3: police department. He resumed contact with them. Confident that digital

1323
01:11:30,760 --> 01:11:34,800
Speaker 3: communication would be untraceable, he sent a floppy disc to

1324
01:11:34,880 --> 01:11:38,080
Speaker 3: the local TV station with a Microsoft word document containing

1325
01:11:38,080 --> 01:11:43,559
Speaker 3: a letter okay the digital fingerp okay. The investigators used

1326
01:11:43,600 --> 01:11:47,559
Speaker 3: the data recovery in forensic analysis techniques to examine the

1327
01:11:47,640 --> 01:11:51,360
Speaker 3: metadata embedded within that word document on the disc, and

1328
01:11:51,400 --> 01:11:56,760
Speaker 3: they uncovered this information that rewarded super critical information. The

1329
01:11:56,800 --> 01:12:01,920
Speaker 3: metadata contained two cases to really keep information. The document

1330
01:12:02,040 --> 01:12:04,559
Speaker 3: was last modified by a user named Dennis. So that's

1331
01:12:04,560 --> 01:12:07,840
Speaker 3: who was logged into the computer, right, and that the

1332
01:12:07,920 --> 01:12:12,439
Speaker 3: document was associated to the Microsoft woord program that was

1333
01:12:12,479 --> 01:12:15,120
Speaker 3: purchased by the christ Lutheran Church.

1334
01:12:16,200 --> 01:12:22,160
Speaker 2: Oh that's right, Yeah, that's right, that's right. And of

1335
01:12:22,200 --> 01:12:25,639
Speaker 2: course d not of course, but Dennis Raider was someone

1336
01:12:25,720 --> 01:12:28,760
Speaker 2: who was he was very active in the church, was

1337
01:12:28,800 --> 01:12:30,160
Speaker 2: on the boardard.

1338
01:12:30,600 --> 01:12:32,400
Speaker 3: He was on the board. So you know, he logged

1339
01:12:32,439 --> 01:12:35,920
Speaker 3: into like Windows Courtney like you know, he was. He

1340
01:12:35,960 --> 01:12:38,160
Speaker 3: was logged in his denis. He typed up a word

1341
01:12:38,240 --> 01:12:40,639
Speaker 3: and saved it to a floppy thought he was super

1342
01:12:40,640 --> 01:12:43,639
Speaker 3: smart guy, right, and sent this floppy disc.

1343
01:12:43,920 --> 01:12:47,599
Speaker 2: That basically is how he got caught. Oh my gosh, well, listen,

1344
01:12:47,720 --> 01:12:49,519
Speaker 2: we would love to hear your thoughts, whether you have

1345
01:12:49,520 --> 01:12:53,479
Speaker 2: thoughts on BTK or Metadata or any of the above,

1346
01:12:53,560 --> 01:12:55,200
Speaker 2: give us a call where at eight A eight three

1347
01:12:55,320 --> 01:12:58,200
Speaker 2: one Crime and it would be our thrill and pleasure

1348
01:12:58,240 --> 01:13:01,320
Speaker 2: to speak with you. And I think you have another

1349
01:13:01,439 --> 01:13:03,600
Speaker 2: case to talk about. Bring it another one.

1350
01:13:03,640 --> 01:13:06,200
Speaker 3: And we haven't talked about this case on the show,

1351
01:13:06,360 --> 01:13:10,080
Speaker 3: but it was one I was obsessed with, like my mom,

1352
01:13:10,160 --> 01:13:12,000
Speaker 3: and I took like a week off from work to

1353
01:13:12,040 --> 01:13:12,799
Speaker 3: watch this trial.

1354
01:13:12,960 --> 01:13:14,680
Speaker 2: I love Jody Arias.

1355
01:13:14,880 --> 01:13:19,400
Speaker 3: Do you guys remember Jody arias smam She And this

1356
01:13:19,560 --> 01:13:23,360
Speaker 3: was a really highly publicized trial in twenty thirteen and

1357
01:13:23,439 --> 01:13:26,479
Speaker 3: it was a fort you know, jodyo Arius was charged

1358
01:13:26,520 --> 01:13:31,439
Speaker 3: with murdering her ex boyfriend Travis Alexander, and Metadata played

1359
01:13:31,479 --> 01:13:35,120
Speaker 3: a pivotal role in discrediting her shifting claims of innocence

1360
01:13:35,120 --> 01:13:35,919
Speaker 3: and self defense.

1361
01:13:36,320 --> 01:13:38,360
Speaker 4: Her story changed like three or four times.

1362
01:13:38,400 --> 01:13:42,040
Speaker 3: Okay, that's right, Yeah, like of what what happened that day?

1363
01:13:42,320 --> 01:13:44,880
Speaker 3: First she wasn't there, and then she was there and

1364
01:13:44,960 --> 01:13:50,160
Speaker 3: he attacked her, and yeah, okay, AnyWho they found a camera,

1365
01:13:50,680 --> 01:13:55,040
Speaker 3: a digital camera investigators found in a washing machine at

1366
01:13:55,040 --> 01:13:58,680
Speaker 3: the crime scene. Okay, and that was Jody's camera that

1367
01:13:58,840 --> 01:14:01,720
Speaker 3: had she attempted to stroy. She thought by washing it

1368
01:14:01,720 --> 01:14:07,120
Speaker 3: it would destroy this evidence. Forensic experts recovered deleted images

1369
01:14:07,160 --> 01:14:09,840
Speaker 3: from the camera's memory. Okay, so she's taking photos, right,

1370
01:14:10,600 --> 01:14:14,120
Speaker 3: and then as she's taking photos.

1371
01:14:14,000 --> 01:14:15,840
Speaker 2: She attacks Travis.

1372
01:14:16,320 --> 01:14:21,320
Speaker 3: The camera drops onto like the floor and continues to

1373
01:14:21,479 --> 01:14:26,600
Speaker 3: take photos. And you can see in the series of

1374
01:14:26,640 --> 01:14:29,720
Speaker 3: photos that she had attacked Travis and killed him. There

1375
01:14:29,760 --> 01:14:32,400
Speaker 3: was blood on these photos, you can see. I mean,

1376
01:14:32,439 --> 01:14:36,439
Speaker 3: it's it was horrific. And she picked up the camera

1377
01:14:36,560 --> 01:14:39,400
Speaker 3: apparently at some point saw what had happened and tried

1378
01:14:39,400 --> 01:14:41,400
Speaker 3: to delete those images and then threw it in the

1379
01:14:41,520 --> 01:14:46,400
Speaker 3: washing machine. While investigators were able to restore that information.

1380
01:14:46,840 --> 01:14:50,439
Speaker 3: And okay, fine, that's but here's what metadata did. It

1381
01:14:50,479 --> 01:14:54,680
Speaker 3: gave them the timeline because on the photos you know,

1382
01:14:54,720 --> 01:14:57,599
Speaker 3: of course, are timestamps of when those pictures were taken.

1383
01:14:58,160 --> 01:15:01,160
Speaker 3: You know, it gave a really good timeline of what

1384
01:15:01,240 --> 01:15:04,200
Speaker 3: had happened. That the time stamps were critical, and it

1385
01:15:04,280 --> 01:15:07,080
Speaker 3: contradicted her alibi. She initially told police she was not

1386
01:15:07,280 --> 01:15:10,600
Speaker 3: there on the day of the murders. The metadata approved

1387
01:15:10,720 --> 01:15:12,960
Speaker 3: she was with Travis, which is her ex boyfriend, at

1388
01:15:13,000 --> 01:15:14,840
Speaker 3: his home on June four, of two thousand and eight,

1389
01:15:15,479 --> 01:15:18,719
Speaker 3: and it documented the events of that unfolded. The recovered

1390
01:15:18,720 --> 01:15:22,920
Speaker 3: photos included a sequence that documented some sexual activity between

1391
01:15:22,920 --> 01:15:25,799
Speaker 3: the two, followed by pictures of Alexander in the shower

1392
01:15:26,400 --> 01:15:29,400
Speaker 3: immediately before his death. For those that know the case

1393
01:15:29,520 --> 01:15:32,120
Speaker 3: or that don't know the case, Travis was found in

1394
01:15:32,160 --> 01:15:36,400
Speaker 3: his shower and it pinpointed the exact time of murder.

1395
01:15:36,560 --> 01:15:39,920
Speaker 3: The final photos of a living Alexander were time stamped

1396
01:15:39,920 --> 01:15:43,519
Speaker 3: at five twenty nine pm that day. Photos taking just

1397
01:15:44,320 --> 01:15:49,200
Speaker 3: moments later were unfocused image captured during the attack showing

1398
01:15:49,280 --> 01:15:53,160
Speaker 3: Alexander profusely bleeding on the bathroom floor. This metadata created

1399
01:15:53,200 --> 01:15:57,120
Speaker 3: a clear object timeline of the murder, so it was

1400
01:15:57,320 --> 01:16:00,840
Speaker 3: very colcala. And then they pulled all the emails and

1401
01:16:00,880 --> 01:16:05,120
Speaker 3: text records. UH forensic analysis of all of the electronic

1402
01:16:05,160 --> 01:16:11,000
Speaker 3: communications from both Jody and Travis Alexander the devices, you know,

1403
01:16:11,040 --> 01:16:14,240
Speaker 3: provided context for the crime and undermined her claims of

1404
01:16:14,280 --> 01:16:17,599
Speaker 3: self defense because she was saying that he was attacking

1405
01:16:17,640 --> 01:16:22,640
Speaker 3: and raping her right which was just not true. The

1406
01:16:22,920 --> 01:16:27,160
Speaker 3: recovered emails and text message documented this like super crazy

1407
01:16:27,760 --> 01:16:31,080
Speaker 3: folatile nature of their relationship and suggested that Jody was

1408
01:16:31,960 --> 01:16:34,840
Speaker 3: kind of obsessed to Travis because she would providing a

1409
01:16:34,880 --> 01:16:36,040
Speaker 3: completely different story.

1410
01:16:36,240 --> 01:16:39,759
Speaker 2: She seemed deeply obsessed because we yeah, you know, we've

1411
01:16:39,800 --> 01:16:42,800
Speaker 2: we've covered this story and it was a joke when

1412
01:16:42,840 --> 01:16:45,559
Speaker 2: we first started the show back in June about Kirk Nurmi,

1413
01:16:45,640 --> 01:16:48,439
Speaker 2: her defense attorney, because I would quote him all the time.

1414
01:16:49,800 --> 01:16:55,960
Speaker 2: Love but Jody Arius, yes, like you're saying a little obsessed,

1415
01:16:56,000 --> 01:16:56,639
Speaker 2: and she was.

1416
01:16:56,840 --> 01:17:00,559
Speaker 3: She was totally crazy. But so yeah, that those twos are.

1417
01:17:01,160 --> 01:17:04,240
Speaker 3: There's more, but those two are kind of famous and

1418
01:17:04,960 --> 01:17:08,920
Speaker 3: people know them and and I think people overlook how

1419
01:17:09,400 --> 01:17:12,920
Speaker 3: this metadata is so important. The first thing I do

1420
01:17:12,960 --> 01:17:14,800
Speaker 3: when I'm trying to validate something is I try to

1421
01:17:14,800 --> 01:17:16,599
Speaker 3: see if there's like a photo, for instance, I try

1422
01:17:16,640 --> 01:17:19,040
Speaker 3: to see if there's extif data or metadata attached to it.

1423
01:17:20,040 --> 01:17:22,479
Speaker 3: A lot of the times when you upload pictures to

1424
01:17:22,600 --> 01:17:26,200
Speaker 3: social media like Instagram or Twitter or Facebook, it's going

1425
01:17:26,200 --> 01:17:29,240
Speaker 3: to strip metadata. So if your images are coming from

1426
01:17:29,280 --> 01:17:30,879
Speaker 3: social media, don't even.

1427
01:17:30,680 --> 01:17:34,200
Speaker 8: Bother Oh okay, that won't have that info and imbedded

1428
01:17:34,280 --> 01:17:34,839
Speaker 8: at it.

1429
01:17:34,840 --> 01:17:37,760
Speaker 3: It's a protection for you, right like it didn't used

1430
01:17:37,800 --> 01:17:40,200
Speaker 3: to They didn't used to strip the metadata, but now

1431
01:17:40,240 --> 01:17:40,479
Speaker 3: they do.

1432
01:17:41,200 --> 01:17:42,479
Speaker 2: Oh wow, do that is.

1433
01:17:42,439 --> 01:17:44,760
Speaker 8: That because oh well, because it was probably giving away

1434
01:17:44,800 --> 01:17:45,200
Speaker 8: too much.

1435
01:17:45,760 --> 01:17:49,679
Speaker 2: Way, it's way too much info. Yeah, you know exactly where,

1436
01:17:49,800 --> 01:17:51,120
Speaker 2: exactly exactly.

1437
01:17:51,720 --> 01:17:54,680
Speaker 3: So yeah, metadata is super valuable, but it's not like

1438
01:17:54,760 --> 01:17:55,840
Speaker 3: trustworthy on its own.

1439
01:17:55,880 --> 01:17:58,640
Speaker 2: It's like a layer of evidence. Consider it like a

1440
01:17:58,760 --> 01:17:59,719
Speaker 2: layer of evidence.

1441
01:17:59,800 --> 01:18:02,160
Speaker 3: Right. It can be wiped, it can be overwritten, it

1442
01:18:02,200 --> 01:18:05,240
Speaker 3: can be faked. And that's why it's treated as a

1443
01:18:05,280 --> 01:18:07,120
Speaker 3: clue and not a conclusion.

1444
01:18:07,560 --> 01:18:14,240
Speaker 2: Oh wow, heverybody move in. I feel so knowledgeable. Listen,

1445
01:18:14,360 --> 01:18:19,040
Speaker 2: keep it here because coming up we have your talkbacks, questions, theories.

1446
01:18:19,400 --> 01:18:22,080
Speaker 2: We're diving into all of them on True Crime Tonight,

1447
01:18:22,520 --> 01:18:24,719
Speaker 2: and honestly, give us a call of you on chat

1448
01:18:24,760 --> 01:18:27,080
Speaker 2: for a minute eighty eight to three one Crime.

1449
01:18:38,120 --> 01:18:40,800
Speaker 3: This is True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio, where we talk

1450
01:18:40,800 --> 01:18:43,160
Speaker 3: in true crime all the time. I'm body moving and

1451
01:18:43,200 --> 01:18:47,920
Speaker 3: I'm here with True Crime. Listen, I cannot speak. I'm

1452
01:18:47,920 --> 01:18:52,120
Speaker 3: here with True Crime producers Courtney Armstrong and Tah I'm

1453
01:18:52,120 --> 01:18:53,080
Speaker 3: so happy Tahs here.

1454
01:18:53,280 --> 01:18:53,800
Speaker 2: Don't forget.

1455
01:18:53,800 --> 01:18:55,479
Speaker 3: If you miss any part of tonight's show, you can

1456
01:18:55,520 --> 01:18:58,040
Speaker 3: always catch the podcast. We also want to hear from you.

1457
01:18:58,080 --> 01:19:00,320
Speaker 3: Give us a call at eight eight eight three one

1458
01:19:00,439 --> 01:19:03,400
Speaker 3: Crime or get with us on our socials at Tree

1459
01:19:03,439 --> 01:19:06,000
Speaker 3: Crime Tonight's show on TikTok and Instagram and True Crime

1460
01:19:06,040 --> 01:19:07,640
Speaker 3: Tonight on Facebook.

1461
01:19:07,880 --> 01:19:09,479
Speaker 2: All right, what do we want to do? Some talk

1462
01:19:09,479 --> 01:19:10,840
Speaker 2: about it?

1463
01:19:12,240 --> 01:19:15,960
Speaker 15: What's do some Hi lady, this is Hailey calling from

1464
01:19:16,000 --> 01:19:19,880
Speaker 15: Australia and gentlemen as well. Thank you so much for

1465
01:19:19,960 --> 01:19:23,120
Speaker 15: your show. I just absolutely love it. I think with

1466
01:19:23,280 --> 01:19:28,840
Speaker 15: the Jeff's case in America, unfortunately, money still talks. You've

1467
01:19:28,880 --> 01:19:31,559
Speaker 15: only got to look at some of other sporting people

1468
01:19:31,600 --> 01:19:34,720
Speaker 15: that have got away, you know, USA Gymnastics, how long

1469
01:19:34,800 --> 01:19:35,680
Speaker 15: they got away with that.

1470
01:19:36,479 --> 01:19:41,680
Speaker 14: I think it just sort of highlights how some jurisdictions

1471
01:19:42,760 --> 01:19:47,160
Speaker 14: just don't see sexual assault as being important.

1472
01:19:48,120 --> 01:19:49,800
Speaker 2: And it really frustrates me.

1473
01:19:50,760 --> 01:19:54,479
Speaker 15: I'd be very concerned about this particular guy as to

1474
01:19:55,080 --> 01:19:57,000
Speaker 15: what happens to him in the future.

1475
01:19:59,000 --> 01:19:59,519
Speaker 7: That's good.

1476
01:19:59,760 --> 01:20:01,920
Speaker 8: Yeah, And if Stephanie were here, you know she would,

1477
01:20:02,120 --> 01:20:04,960
Speaker 8: oh yeah, I have a lot to say about it.

1478
01:20:05,000 --> 01:20:07,360
Speaker 8: But I have to agree with her that it feels

1479
01:20:07,360 --> 01:20:11,000
Speaker 8: as though there's something in society where it's almost looked

1480
01:20:11,000 --> 01:20:15,519
Speaker 8: at as I don't know, maybe because it's sadly male

1481
01:20:15,560 --> 01:20:18,120
Speaker 8: dominated in so many ways, that this isn't as important

1482
01:20:18,120 --> 01:20:20,960
Speaker 8: an issue and someone else in power gets so away

1483
01:20:21,040 --> 01:20:25,240
Speaker 8: with it and it's brush from the carpet. But what

1484
01:20:25,280 --> 01:20:27,759
Speaker 8: I do think is I feel like we're talking about

1485
01:20:27,880 --> 01:20:30,559
Speaker 8: these cases a lot more people have become more vocal.

1486
01:20:30,720 --> 01:20:35,200
Speaker 8: Social media has helped keep things alive and present, and

1487
01:20:35,439 --> 01:20:38,360
Speaker 8: I think that swell that Stephanie talks about. I can

1488
01:20:38,439 --> 01:20:40,600
Speaker 8: see it. I feel it like I don't think I

1489
01:20:41,280 --> 01:20:45,240
Speaker 8: talked about sexual assault in my life publicly with people,

1490
01:20:45,400 --> 01:20:48,080
Speaker 8: and now it's something that we all kind of talk

1491
01:20:48,120 --> 01:20:49,519
Speaker 8: about the problems we see.

1492
01:20:50,160 --> 01:20:54,680
Speaker 2: Well, I think Jesse Butler case is sorry, buddy, go ahead, no,

1493
01:20:54,880 --> 01:20:55,559
Speaker 2: please please.

1494
01:20:55,720 --> 01:20:57,040
Speaker 3: I was just going to say, I think, you know,

1495
01:20:57,600 --> 01:21:01,760
Speaker 3: removing the shame and stigma from sexual assault, you know,

1496
01:21:01,880 --> 01:21:05,040
Speaker 3: has really made people feel more empowered to talk about

1497
01:21:05,080 --> 01:21:07,840
Speaker 3: what happened to them. And I feel like that is

1498
01:21:07,880 --> 01:21:12,080
Speaker 3: so important, like that people understand that this wasn't you know,

1499
01:21:12,200 --> 01:21:16,080
Speaker 3: anything that you did. There is just like getting mugged,

1500
01:21:16,360 --> 01:21:20,040
Speaker 3: you know, or or or robbed at gunpoint, nothing you

1501
01:21:20,160 --> 01:21:23,000
Speaker 3: did cause this. It's not your fault. There's no shame

1502
01:21:23,080 --> 01:21:26,599
Speaker 3: to be had. It's okay to talk about and it's

1503
01:21:26,600 --> 01:21:29,280
Speaker 3: okay to get to want to get justice for what happened.

1504
01:21:30,000 --> 01:21:32,240
Speaker 3: I just think that removing shame from the equation has

1505
01:21:32,280 --> 01:21:36,040
Speaker 3: been has been a big driving factor in the swell.

1506
01:21:37,200 --> 01:21:37,720
Speaker 15: Yeah.

1507
01:21:37,880 --> 01:21:41,800
Speaker 2: I think that's exactly right. And also people are being

1508
01:21:41,920 --> 01:21:45,799
Speaker 2: galvanized and more vocal about when justice is not served.

1509
01:21:45,880 --> 01:21:52,720
Speaker 2: This Esse Butler case, yeah, is so horrible. He was

1510
01:21:52,920 --> 01:21:59,200
Speaker 2: accused of raping to girls and battery and assault, and

1511
01:21:59,760 --> 01:22:04,439
Speaker 2: he faced seventy eight years in prison and a judge

1512
01:22:04,520 --> 01:22:09,360
Speaker 2: ultimately gave him some community service. That's it. And not

1513
01:22:09,439 --> 01:22:13,599
Speaker 2: only have there been protests, thankfully, but the Republican state

1514
01:22:13,720 --> 01:22:17,800
Speaker 2: representative Justin Humphrey his quote to go from more than

1515
01:22:17,840 --> 01:22:20,400
Speaker 2: seventy five years in prison to one hundred something hours

1516
01:22:20,400 --> 01:22:23,880
Speaker 2: of community service, that's sketchy as hell.

1517
01:22:24,560 --> 01:22:26,040
Speaker 4: I think this is worse than Brockburner.

1518
01:22:26,760 --> 01:22:29,639
Speaker 8: I agree, Yeah, the brock Turner. Thank you for reminding

1519
01:22:29,680 --> 01:22:30,559
Speaker 8: everyone of that one.

1520
01:22:30,960 --> 01:22:33,479
Speaker 2: I really do. And now is this the guy?

1521
01:22:33,800 --> 01:22:35,599
Speaker 3: Let me ask you, guys, is this the guy that

1522
01:22:35,760 --> 01:22:38,160
Speaker 3: was They did the body cam footage of him getting

1523
01:22:38,200 --> 01:22:41,559
Speaker 3: invested with his mom, Yeah, and he was like, OK,

1524
01:22:41,880 --> 01:22:42,280
Speaker 3: I want.

1525
01:22:42,200 --> 01:22:48,880
Speaker 8: To make sure and his mom was almost as any

1526
01:22:48,880 --> 01:22:50,800
Speaker 8: mom would be. But there was something about it that

1527
01:22:50,800 --> 01:22:52,639
Speaker 8: that just had this whole privilege.

1528
01:22:53,040 --> 01:22:54,919
Speaker 2: I agree, I totally agree.

1529
01:22:55,200 --> 01:22:56,960
Speaker 4: And they were so gentle with him too.

1530
01:22:57,000 --> 01:22:59,040
Speaker 2: I was like, oh yeah, that's what stood out to me.

1531
01:22:59,080 --> 01:23:00,719
Speaker 2: The police just would with kick.

1532
01:23:00,560 --> 01:23:03,360
Speaker 7: Gloves and kind of remind me just a smidgeon.

1533
01:23:03,040 --> 01:23:05,080
Speaker 3: I don't want the police to hurt anybody when they're

1534
01:23:05,080 --> 01:23:08,799
Speaker 3: getting arrested, Like I never want to see people injured.

1535
01:23:08,840 --> 01:23:10,880
Speaker 2: And he wasn't resisting or anything like that. He wasn't

1536
01:23:10,920 --> 01:23:12,800
Speaker 2: just it just they were. The way they handled him

1537
01:23:12,840 --> 01:23:15,719
Speaker 2: was like, ugh, yeah, yeah, how about how he handled

1538
01:23:15,720 --> 01:23:19,200
Speaker 2: those poor girls that there you go, that he assaulted

1539
01:23:19,400 --> 01:23:23,880
Speaker 2: and choked and bruised. Right, and listen, his dad is

1540
01:23:24,560 --> 01:23:29,360
Speaker 2: alumni of excuse me, his father worked as the director

1541
01:23:29,360 --> 01:23:35,720
Speaker 2: of operations for the college football program and Oklahoma State University,

1542
01:23:35,840 --> 01:23:37,880
Speaker 2: right right, so that.

1543
01:23:38,000 --> 01:23:39,920
Speaker 3: He was talking about having he was like a man

1544
01:23:40,040 --> 01:23:42,960
Speaker 3: of some means, right, like some.

1545
01:23:44,439 --> 01:23:46,800
Speaker 2: Means and good old boys.

1546
01:23:45,840 --> 01:23:48,559
Speaker 8: And it was like, yes, it feels like these are

1547
01:23:48,560 --> 01:23:50,880
Speaker 8: all the guys in the you know, gentlemen's club.

1548
01:23:50,920 --> 01:23:53,160
Speaker 7: They're all friends with each other. Get them off, don't

1549
01:23:53,160 --> 01:23:53,760
Speaker 7: worry about it.

1550
01:23:53,800 --> 01:23:57,479
Speaker 3: Well if I were, if I were those victims, I

1551
01:23:57,520 --> 01:23:59,160
Speaker 3: would be suing.

1552
01:24:00,120 --> 01:24:03,000
Speaker 7: Got him and hopefully they have a case.

1553
01:24:03,320 --> 01:24:06,400
Speaker 2: They have a case. I mean, he was convicted of

1554
01:24:06,479 --> 01:24:11,240
Speaker 2: multiple charges grace assault. Right, So anyway, thank you for

1555
01:24:11,400 --> 01:24:13,519
Speaker 2: that one. Talk back very much.

1556
01:24:13,640 --> 01:24:15,559
Speaker 4: Thank you for that.

1557
01:24:15,760 --> 01:24:17,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, go to another one.

1558
01:24:17,680 --> 01:24:18,320
Speaker 7: Let's do it.

1559
01:24:18,840 --> 01:24:21,200
Speaker 5: Yeah, this kind of goes along with the point you're

1560
01:24:21,240 --> 01:24:22,080
Speaker 5: just making there, So.

1561
01:24:22,120 --> 01:24:22,519
Speaker 2: Let's hear it.

1562
01:24:22,680 --> 01:24:26,919
Speaker 11: Oh Hi, my name is too and I'm calling from Texas.

1563
01:24:27,280 --> 01:24:30,479
Speaker 11: Love your Guys' show. Quick question about in the Jessee

1564
01:24:30,520 --> 01:24:34,840
Speaker 11: Butler case. Is there any way that the victims can

1565
01:24:34,960 --> 01:24:39,439
Speaker 11: two not in criminal court, but in the other court

1566
01:24:40,000 --> 01:24:43,040
Speaker 11: and get monetary I know, I know that it wouldn't

1567
01:24:43,080 --> 01:24:45,840
Speaker 11: solve anything, but are they allowed to go and get

1568
01:24:46,560 --> 01:24:49,800
Speaker 11: damages for pain and suffering? Just wondered about that. Again,

1569
01:24:49,880 --> 01:24:52,840
Speaker 11: It wouldn't relieve their pain, but it would lead make

1570
01:24:53,479 --> 01:24:58,120
Speaker 11: the perpetrator somehow suffer in some way, shape or form.

1571
01:24:58,479 --> 01:25:02,439
Speaker 2: Thank Yeah, it's so crazy. I just said that.

1572
01:25:03,040 --> 01:25:04,840
Speaker 4: I swear to god, I didn't know that one.

1573
01:25:04,840 --> 01:25:10,160
Speaker 3: Next Yeah, of course, Yeah, really good question. So of

1574
01:25:10,200 --> 01:25:12,439
Speaker 3: course they can, damn it. You know, they can file

1575
01:25:13,400 --> 01:25:17,599
Speaker 3: for intentional infliction of emotional distress. That would be what

1576
01:25:18,240 --> 01:25:22,760
Speaker 3: they would be suing for. There are statute of limitations.

1577
01:25:23,400 --> 01:25:27,040
Speaker 3: I think in California. Wait, wait where did this happen?

1578
01:25:28,360 --> 01:25:31,880
Speaker 7: This was Oh, Oklahoma?

1579
01:25:32,040 --> 01:25:34,559
Speaker 2: You said, Oklahoma, Okay.

1580
01:25:34,640 --> 01:25:38,160
Speaker 3: Anyway, there is a statute of limitations, but this doesn't

1581
01:25:38,200 --> 01:25:43,320
Speaker 3: seem to fall with outside that and the person that

1582
01:25:43,720 --> 01:25:47,320
Speaker 3: gets sued like the rapists in this case, there doesn't

1583
01:25:47,320 --> 01:25:50,400
Speaker 3: need to be a conviction in order to sue. You

1584
01:25:50,400 --> 01:25:53,320
Speaker 3: can sue anything. You can doe anybody for anything nowadays.

1585
01:25:53,479 --> 01:25:56,000
Speaker 3: I mean this is this is like an actual case

1586
01:25:56,240 --> 01:26:01,720
Speaker 3: like that they have. They can sue for pain and suffering, anxiety, depression,

1587
01:26:02,439 --> 01:26:06,839
Speaker 3: medical bills that came out, lost income, impacts on their career,

1588
01:26:07,960 --> 01:26:11,080
Speaker 3: even their social life. They can sue for any number

1589
01:26:11,120 --> 01:26:13,360
Speaker 3: of things, and I think they would win.

1590
01:26:13,400 --> 01:26:14,280
Speaker 2: I think they would have a case.

1591
01:26:14,680 --> 01:26:17,080
Speaker 7: They probably will. I just did a quick just to

1592
01:26:17,120 --> 01:26:18,559
Speaker 7: look up and double check on some things.

1593
01:26:18,640 --> 01:26:22,280
Speaker 8: Victims of families can file civil lawsuits seeking money damages

1594
01:26:22,280 --> 01:26:26,839
Speaker 8: for anything from wrongful death, battery damages, assault, pain and suffering,

1595
01:26:27,240 --> 01:26:31,160
Speaker 8: medical or funeral costs, loss of emotional distress.

1596
01:26:31,200 --> 01:26:34,160
Speaker 7: So there's a list of things.

1597
01:26:34,200 --> 01:26:37,000
Speaker 8: And they can also sue multiple parties depending on oh yeah,

1598
01:26:37,120 --> 01:26:40,160
Speaker 8: stances like the employees or the part pretty owners.

1599
01:26:40,960 --> 01:26:44,080
Speaker 7: So I'm hoping these victims do that.

1600
01:26:44,520 --> 01:26:45,280
Speaker 2: Oh absolutely.

1601
01:26:45,640 --> 01:26:50,440
Speaker 3: The most common one would be intentional infliction of emotional distress.

1602
01:26:51,280 --> 01:26:53,800
Speaker 3: They had to have to show the defendant conduct was

1603
01:26:53,840 --> 01:26:59,080
Speaker 3: extreme and outrageous, the conduct was intentional or reckless, it

1604
01:26:59,240 --> 01:27:04,880
Speaker 3: caused severe emotional distress, and the distress is significant or diagnosable.

1605
01:27:05,360 --> 01:27:08,960
Speaker 3: And sexual assault and rape almost always meet that threshold

1606
01:27:08,960 --> 01:27:10,880
Speaker 3: for extreme and outrageous.

1607
01:27:11,240 --> 01:27:11,479
Speaker 7: Wow.

1608
01:27:13,080 --> 01:27:18,160
Speaker 2: This Yeah, this monster is strangling and brutalizing them on

1609
01:27:18,280 --> 01:27:22,559
Speaker 2: top of the brutal act. Right, God, so great talkback.

1610
01:27:22,680 --> 01:27:23,240
Speaker 4: Thank you for this.

1611
01:27:23,600 --> 01:27:26,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, that is something, and you're right, it is not

1612
01:27:26,400 --> 01:27:31,800
Speaker 3: going to make anything better necessarily, but knowing that, you know,

1613
01:27:31,920 --> 01:27:35,200
Speaker 3: people that have influence like this usually value their money

1614
01:27:35,320 --> 01:27:38,680
Speaker 3: more than anything else. Having to give some of that

1615
01:27:38,760 --> 01:27:42,639
Speaker 3: away is painful for them, and for me that would

1616
01:27:42,680 --> 01:27:46,080
Speaker 3: be helpful, you know what I mean, Knowing that I'm

1617
01:27:46,080 --> 01:27:49,200
Speaker 3: causing my rapist pain.

1618
01:27:49,479 --> 01:27:52,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, all right, let's do it. Yeah, absolutely well. Listen,

1619
01:27:52,200 --> 01:27:54,479
Speaker 2: this is true crime today. We're talking true crime all

1620
01:27:54,520 --> 01:27:57,320
Speaker 2: the time. I'm Courtney up here with Body Move In

1621
01:27:57,680 --> 01:28:02,479
Speaker 2: and we have had some really great talkbacks talking about

1622
01:28:02,479 --> 01:28:06,160
Speaker 2: the case of the teen Jesse Butler, who got off

1623
01:28:06,720 --> 01:28:11,360
Speaker 2: with a ridiculously late sentence. Give us a call, Edita

1624
01:28:11,479 --> 01:28:14,040
Speaker 2: through to one crime and let's go to another talkback.

1625
01:28:14,880 --> 01:28:17,599
Speaker 16: Hi, Ladies Lea in Australia, just waiting for the latest

1626
01:28:17,640 --> 01:28:21,120
Speaker 16: episode to drop as a podcast. I just wanted to

1627
01:28:21,160 --> 01:28:25,080
Speaker 16: recommend a documentary that I recently stumbled on on Disney Plas.

1628
01:28:25,080 --> 01:28:26,200
Speaker 6: I think it's also on Hulu in.

1629
01:28:26,200 --> 01:28:28,000
Speaker 2: The US called Naming the Dead.

1630
01:28:28,439 --> 01:28:33,040
Speaker 16: It's a national geographic doco and it is all about

1631
01:28:33,080 --> 01:28:37,880
Speaker 16: the use of genetic genealogy to find a name Joan

1632
01:28:38,080 --> 01:28:38,840
Speaker 16: and John does.

1633
01:28:39,160 --> 01:28:39,280
Speaker 5: So.

1634
01:28:39,840 --> 01:28:41,599
Speaker 16: It's all about the DNA dough project.

1635
01:28:41,760 --> 01:28:45,800
Speaker 2: Well worth it, thanks, love it. Oh okay, I am

1636
01:28:45,880 --> 01:28:46,320
Speaker 2: into that.

1637
01:28:46,560 --> 01:28:50,639
Speaker 3: So the Jen and John excuse me, gene and don

1638
01:28:50,760 --> 01:28:54,960
Speaker 3: Joe project is so interesting. So they try to identify

1639
01:28:55,439 --> 01:28:58,880
Speaker 3: victims that haven't been identified. And the only reason I

1640
01:28:58,920 --> 01:29:02,160
Speaker 3: even know about them is because crime Con. At crime Con,

1641
01:29:02,400 --> 01:29:07,960
Speaker 3: I think they were collecting samples from volunteers. And then

1642
01:29:08,360 --> 01:29:10,280
Speaker 3: the next year when I went back to crime Con,

1643
01:29:11,160 --> 01:29:14,120
Speaker 3: they had said that from the collection that they had

1644
01:29:14,120 --> 01:29:18,000
Speaker 3: taken the previous year, they identified seventeen Jane does wow.

1645
01:29:18,000 --> 01:29:20,280
Speaker 7: Wow, yeah, Oh that's incredible.

1646
01:29:20,439 --> 01:29:20,639
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1647
01:29:20,640 --> 01:29:22,400
Speaker 4: So this documentary sounds right at my alley.

1648
01:29:22,439 --> 01:29:24,080
Speaker 2: I love this stuff.

1649
01:29:24,920 --> 01:29:28,559
Speaker 3: My partner on don f with Katz, John Green, he's

1650
01:29:28,600 --> 01:29:31,519
Speaker 3: the guy that you know I work with that's what

1651
01:29:31,560 --> 01:29:33,760
Speaker 3: he likes to do in his free time. He likes

1652
01:29:33,800 --> 01:29:38,320
Speaker 3: to go into the identifying John and jayde and Doe

1653
01:29:38,360 --> 01:29:42,880
Speaker 3: like reddits and forms and whatnot help try and find

1654
01:29:42,920 --> 01:29:45,040
Speaker 3: clues about people who are unidentified.

1655
01:29:45,720 --> 01:29:46,559
Speaker 7: I love that.

1656
01:29:46,600 --> 01:29:49,080
Speaker 8: Well, this is I wasn't familiar with it, but I

1657
01:29:49,160 --> 01:29:51,639
Speaker 8: just quickly looked up and just for everyone out there,

1658
01:29:51,800 --> 01:29:52,280
Speaker 8: Naming the.

1659
01:29:52,280 --> 01:29:53,600
Speaker 7: Dead is a docuseries.

1660
01:29:53,640 --> 01:29:57,280
Speaker 8: It premiered on National Geographic in August tewod of twenty

1661
01:29:57,320 --> 01:29:59,840
Speaker 8: twenty five. The series follows the work of the d

1662
01:30:00,080 --> 01:30:04,440
Speaker 8: in a Dough Project as Bodies Just mentioned, a nonprofit

1663
01:30:04,560 --> 01:30:09,760
Speaker 8: forensic genealogy organization, as they help law enforcement agencies identify

1664
01:30:10,080 --> 01:30:13,040
Speaker 8: u named and un identified human remains in the US.

1665
01:30:13,360 --> 01:30:17,360
Speaker 8: According to the show's synopsis, there are fifty thousand bodies

1666
01:30:17,920 --> 01:30:24,040
Speaker 8: lying unnamed and unmourned across America. That's huge. But yeah,

1667
01:30:24,120 --> 01:30:26,559
Speaker 8: so that's a great series.

1668
01:30:26,640 --> 01:30:29,679
Speaker 3: And yeah they're able to say, like, oh, this Jane

1669
01:30:29,720 --> 01:30:35,920
Speaker 3: Doe is seventeenth cousin to Courtney Armstrong, and they start

1670
01:30:35,960 --> 01:30:38,400
Speaker 3: building trees and then they're able to say, oh, this

1671
01:30:38,520 --> 01:30:39,519
Speaker 3: is the daughter of.

1672
01:30:41,400 --> 01:30:42,360
Speaker 4: You know, Mary J.

1673
01:30:42,479 --> 01:30:43,160
Speaker 2: Blige. I don't know.

1674
01:30:49,560 --> 01:30:54,240
Speaker 8: Yeah, it's interesting that that is really interesting and yeah,

1675
01:30:54,280 --> 01:30:56,360
Speaker 8: and I like any of those cases that you.

1676
01:30:56,320 --> 01:30:59,960
Speaker 2: Know, solve the problems the sol situation.

1677
01:30:59,720 --> 01:31:01,639
Speaker 7: And can get some answers for family member.

1678
01:31:01,880 --> 01:31:04,040
Speaker 3: You had CC more on that day, and this is

1679
01:31:04,040 --> 01:31:07,320
Speaker 3: something that she is interested in as well as ath room.

1680
01:31:07,439 --> 01:31:10,680
Speaker 3: They do a lot of Jane Doe identification. If you

1681
01:31:10,760 --> 01:31:13,679
Speaker 3: follow any of them on Twitter, you'll see any number

1682
01:31:13,680 --> 01:31:16,240
Speaker 3: of these people tweet out, you know, through the help

1683
01:31:16,439 --> 01:31:21,320
Speaker 3: of you know, DNA and genetic genealogy, we were able

1684
01:31:21,400 --> 01:31:25,240
Speaker 3: to identify Jane Doe eleven three and forty four as

1685
01:31:25,320 --> 01:31:27,240
Speaker 3: so and so, and they'll post their picture.

1686
01:31:27,600 --> 01:31:28,679
Speaker 2: It's very interesting.

1687
01:31:28,800 --> 01:31:32,559
Speaker 4: It's very very interesting and bringing a lot of sersure.

1688
01:31:32,800 --> 01:31:33,280
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1689
01:31:34,040 --> 01:31:37,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, because you know, a family just thinks, oh my

1690
01:31:37,439 --> 01:31:40,760
Speaker 3: daughter ran away, you know, seventeen years ago.

1691
01:31:41,439 --> 01:31:42,040
Speaker 4: That's all they know.

1692
01:31:43,040 --> 01:31:47,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I would I would suggest anybody missing a

1693
01:31:47,120 --> 01:31:51,080
Speaker 3: family member to submit your your DNA to these these

1694
01:31:51,240 --> 01:31:51,919
Speaker 3: these places.

1695
01:31:53,080 --> 01:31:53,439
Speaker 7: Yeah.

1696
01:31:53,680 --> 01:31:54,479
Speaker 2: That's a great Loki.

1697
01:31:55,080 --> 01:31:57,000
Speaker 7: Yeah, and that was a great talk back. So we

1698
01:31:57,040 --> 01:31:58,360
Speaker 7: appreciate you really got one.

1699
01:31:59,200 --> 01:32:02,960
Speaker 8: And definitely we have not yet amongst ourselves, we haven't

1700
01:32:02,960 --> 01:32:03,799
Speaker 8: decided what.

1701
01:32:03,800 --> 01:32:05,559
Speaker 7: Our true crime and chill will be.

1702
01:32:05,720 --> 01:32:08,360
Speaker 8: But I think what our plan will be is on Tuesday,

1703
01:32:08,600 --> 01:32:11,280
Speaker 8: because we've gotten a lot to your earlier point, body,

1704
01:32:11,600 --> 01:32:15,639
Speaker 8: our audience really sends in some great suggestions and cases

1705
01:32:15,640 --> 01:32:16,120
Speaker 8: to follow.

1706
01:32:16,360 --> 01:32:19,200
Speaker 7: We've gotten quite a few people who've suggested true crime

1707
01:32:19,240 --> 01:32:19,639
Speaker 7: and chills.

1708
01:32:19,640 --> 01:32:23,000
Speaker 8: So I'm thinking maybe Tuesday we'll play a few decide,

1709
01:32:23,320 --> 01:32:25,599
Speaker 8: and then over the holidays, after you eat your turkey

1710
01:32:25,680 --> 01:32:27,519
Speaker 8: and everything, you sit back and watch it.

1711
01:32:27,600 --> 01:32:31,200
Speaker 3: I'm gonna let Courtney and Stephanie choose because I have

1712
01:32:31,320 --> 01:32:33,519
Speaker 3: been like heavy handed with the true crime and chill

1713
01:32:33,640 --> 01:32:37,800
Speaker 3: choices lately, like I've been wanting my my agenda to

1714
01:32:37,880 --> 01:32:40,240
Speaker 3: be there, you like I have been choosing.

1715
01:32:39,880 --> 01:32:41,640
Speaker 2: Like the last four up.

1716
01:32:41,720 --> 01:32:45,640
Speaker 7: So I think I think, yeah choices before.

1717
01:32:45,720 --> 01:32:48,519
Speaker 2: Okay, I might and I might take it a little

1718
01:32:48,520 --> 01:32:51,760
Speaker 2: bit lighter. So it can't be the West Wing. We

1719
01:32:51,800 --> 01:32:52,479
Speaker 2: can't do well.

1720
01:32:54,400 --> 01:32:55,320
Speaker 7: The entire season.

1721
01:32:55,520 --> 01:33:00,439
Speaker 2: Yay, there's seven seasons.

1722
01:33:00,760 --> 01:33:03,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, no, I'm done for something lighter. I usually picked

1723
01:33:03,280 --> 01:33:04,040
Speaker 3: pretty heavy ones.

1724
01:33:04,120 --> 01:33:04,360
Speaker 7: Yeah.

1725
01:33:04,880 --> 01:33:07,479
Speaker 2: Yeah, but yeah, let's let's see what this is that

1726
01:33:07,720 --> 01:33:12,439
Speaker 2: said we you know, several weeks ago we had done

1727
01:33:12,680 --> 01:33:13,679
Speaker 2: The Perfect Neighbor.

1728
01:33:14,120 --> 01:33:14,800
Speaker 7: Oh yeah, yes.

1729
01:33:15,600 --> 01:33:18,840
Speaker 2: And I've been both reading and listening to podcasts just

1730
01:33:19,120 --> 01:33:22,000
Speaker 2: of people talking about that and how impactful it was,

1731
01:33:22,080 --> 01:33:24,599
Speaker 2: and it was a lot of what you know, both

1732
01:33:24,760 --> 01:33:27,240
Speaker 2: Utah and your Body were saying about how hard it

1733
01:33:27,320 --> 01:33:31,320
Speaker 2: was to watch, and you know, is it invasive versus

1734
01:33:32,720 --> 01:33:36,200
Speaker 2: The point from the victim's mother of yes, look at

1735
01:33:36,320 --> 01:33:39,840
Speaker 2: this and sit in how queasy you feel was kind

1736
01:33:39,840 --> 01:33:43,639
Speaker 2: of the impetus. So anyway that but had.

1737
01:33:45,200 --> 01:33:47,200
Speaker 8: I was about to say when Body pointed out it

1738
01:33:47,240 --> 01:33:48,719
Speaker 8: was like ourtel moment.

1739
01:33:49,439 --> 01:33:52,040
Speaker 7: Yes, today's society, so look.

1740
01:33:51,880 --> 01:33:55,679
Speaker 3: What these look what these people did to my maybe

1741
01:33:56,640 --> 01:33:58,200
Speaker 3: yeah yeah, wow.

1742
01:33:58,600 --> 01:34:02,000
Speaker 2: Well listen, we thank you so much for being with

1743
01:34:02,120 --> 01:34:06,800
Speaker 2: us this Sunday night. It was fantastic and we have

1744
01:34:06,840 --> 01:34:08,760
Speaker 2: a lot coming up tomorrow. We've got the latest in

1745
01:34:08,840 --> 01:34:15,320
Speaker 2: the Epstein, We've got some updates in David and slender

1746
01:34:15,439 --> 01:34:19,639
Speaker 2: Man attacker has vanished, so we'll be getting into all

1747
01:34:19,680 --> 01:34:22,479
Speaker 2: of that. Good Night, everyone, night,