1 00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:04,040 Speaker 1: Welcome to zero. I am aksha throti. This week Canada 2 00:00:04,280 --> 00:00:22,880 Speaker 1: climate and trouble. Earlier this week, new tariffs imposed by 3 00:00:22,880 --> 00:00:27,240 Speaker 1: President Donald Trump went into effect. They are astonishing. They 4 00:00:27,320 --> 00:00:31,120 Speaker 1: imposed twenty five percent duties on Canadian imports to the US, 5 00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:34,560 Speaker 1: and at the time of this recording, they've already sparked 6 00:00:34,640 --> 00:00:39,360 Speaker 1: chaos in the markets and provoked retaliation from Canada. It 7 00:00:39,400 --> 00:00:41,879 Speaker 1: all comes as Canada's government is in the middle of 8 00:00:41,920 --> 00:00:45,200 Speaker 1: her reconnect The race to replace Prime Minister Justin Trudeau 9 00:00:45,600 --> 00:00:50,400 Speaker 1: is fully underway. Next week the governing Liberal Party will 10 00:00:50,440 --> 00:00:55,680 Speaker 1: announce Trudeau's successor, and before October, if not sooner, the 11 00:00:55,760 --> 00:00:59,200 Speaker 1: country will have to head for a general election. If 12 00:00:59,200 --> 00:01:03,480 Speaker 1: the Liberals lose that election, the opposition Conservative Party has 13 00:01:03,560 --> 00:01:08,480 Speaker 1: promised to dismantle federal climate policies, much like Trump administration 14 00:01:08,600 --> 00:01:11,840 Speaker 1: has done in the US. With so much change in 15 00:01:11,880 --> 00:01:14,480 Speaker 1: the backdrop, last week I got a chance to sit 16 00:01:14,600 --> 00:01:18,600 Speaker 1: down with Rick Smith, president of the Canadian Climate Institute, 17 00:01:18,760 --> 00:01:22,119 Speaker 1: to talk about what shaped the country's climate ambitions might 18 00:01:22,160 --> 00:01:26,280 Speaker 1: take in this new era. We discussed why Canada's oil 19 00:01:26,280 --> 00:01:29,240 Speaker 1: and gas production has remained so high and what Trump's 20 00:01:29,280 --> 00:01:33,880 Speaker 1: moves might mean for Canadian economic and energy policy. He 21 00:01:33,920 --> 00:01:36,960 Speaker 1: also told me why he expects that meaningful climate policy 22 00:01:37,000 --> 00:01:41,440 Speaker 1: in Canada will likely come from provinces and municipalities as 23 00:01:41,520 --> 00:02:00,360 Speaker 1: much as it does from the federal government. Welcome to 24 00:02:00,400 --> 00:02:02,280 Speaker 1: the Showrick, pleasure to be here. 25 00:02:02,840 --> 00:02:03,040 Speaker 2: Now. 26 00:02:03,080 --> 00:02:05,520 Speaker 1: We're talking as the Liberal Party is about to elect 27 00:02:05,600 --> 00:02:08,640 Speaker 1: a new leader and Canada is set to head for 28 00:02:08,680 --> 00:02:13,079 Speaker 1: a general election sometime before October. Before we get to 29 00:02:13,120 --> 00:02:16,280 Speaker 1: the complications of now, tell us more about the Canadian 30 00:02:16,320 --> 00:02:19,959 Speaker 1: Climate Institute, where you've been president for four years. What 31 00:02:20,040 --> 00:02:22,400 Speaker 1: has it accomplished in its five year life that you 32 00:02:22,480 --> 00:02:23,600 Speaker 1: are particularly proud of. 33 00:02:23,919 --> 00:02:26,920 Speaker 2: Well, we were. I think the aspiration of the organization 34 00:02:27,120 --> 00:02:29,800 Speaker 2: when it was launched five years ago has been realized, 35 00:02:30,440 --> 00:02:34,799 Speaker 2: which was to create an independent expert climate change advisor 36 00:02:34,880 --> 00:02:38,600 Speaker 2: for governments in Canada. So we were originally launched to 37 00:02:38,639 --> 00:02:43,320 Speaker 2: provide good ideas, good research to our federal government. And 38 00:02:43,480 --> 00:02:46,919 Speaker 2: since we've been launched, we've grown quite an extensive root 39 00:02:47,000 --> 00:02:49,960 Speaker 2: system across the country. We now work with provincial governments, 40 00:02:49,960 --> 00:02:53,320 Speaker 2: with the municipal governments, with Indigenous nations who have substantial 41 00:02:53,960 --> 00:02:59,400 Speaker 2: constitutional rights in our country. So we're probably the most 42 00:02:59,520 --> 00:03:04,200 Speaker 2: quoted climate change research outfit in the country. I'm very 43 00:03:04,280 --> 00:03:06,480 Speaker 2: proud of the work we do, not just in the 44 00:03:06,520 --> 00:03:09,839 Speaker 2: area of mitigation, but also adaptation. We have a whole 45 00:03:09,840 --> 00:03:13,279 Speaker 2: team that worries about wildfires and flooding of course increasingly 46 00:03:13,280 --> 00:03:17,000 Speaker 2: prominent climate driven effects across the country. We have a 47 00:03:17,040 --> 00:03:20,800 Speaker 2: team of researchers that are focused on clean growth and 48 00:03:20,840 --> 00:03:24,280 Speaker 2: so we're we're you know, as patriotic Canadians, we're interested 49 00:03:24,440 --> 00:03:27,280 Speaker 2: in providing good ideas as to how the Canadian economy 50 00:03:27,320 --> 00:03:31,080 Speaker 2: can prosper through this transitional period. And we actually just 51 00:03:31,160 --> 00:03:35,880 Speaker 2: launched a dedicated Indigenous research unit to work directly with 52 00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:40,400 Speaker 2: our indigenous nations. So we've deepened our work across the country, 53 00:03:40,480 --> 00:03:44,119 Speaker 2: We've expanded it, and I think it's been very helpful 54 00:03:44,720 --> 00:03:47,200 Speaker 2: to driving a climate progress across the country. 55 00:03:47,560 --> 00:03:51,360 Speaker 1: So on zero, we've had the UK's Climate Change Committee 56 00:03:51,800 --> 00:03:55,400 Speaker 1: feature a few times because it was one of the 57 00:03:55,520 --> 00:03:59,600 Speaker 1: first ones to be created as part of a country's 58 00:03:59,760 --> 00:04:04,240 Speaker 1: lead binding climate targets. Now the Canadian Climate Institute is 59 00:04:04,720 --> 00:04:09,240 Speaker 1: a sister organization, though not a one to one in comparison. Right, 60 00:04:09,280 --> 00:04:12,080 Speaker 1: the CCC here has quite a bit of power because 61 00:04:12,120 --> 00:04:15,200 Speaker 1: it can tell a government off by telling them, look, 62 00:04:15,240 --> 00:04:17,480 Speaker 1: there's a common budget that you've set as a legally 63 00:04:17,480 --> 00:04:19,479 Speaker 1: binding goal. You're not on track, and here are the 64 00:04:19,480 --> 00:04:22,440 Speaker 1: set of policies that are available to you to choose 65 00:04:22,480 --> 00:04:25,839 Speaker 1: to get back on track. You don't quite have the 66 00:04:25,920 --> 00:04:28,800 Speaker 1: same ability because of the way you've been created. So 67 00:04:28,839 --> 00:04:31,039 Speaker 1: what are the differences and how do they manifest in 68 00:04:31,080 --> 00:04:31,440 Speaker 1: your work? 69 00:04:31,520 --> 00:04:34,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, you're right. I mean the CCC was created 70 00:04:34,680 --> 00:04:37,240 Speaker 2: in two thousand and eight, so we're our country is 71 00:04:37,279 --> 00:04:40,520 Speaker 2: a little bit behind. The Canadian version of the Climate 72 00:04:40,600 --> 00:04:44,520 Speaker 2: Change Act was adopted in twenty twenty one. Actually, interestingly, 73 00:04:44,680 --> 00:04:48,360 Speaker 2: we in the CCC and holleague organizations in about twenty 74 00:04:48,360 --> 00:04:53,560 Speaker 2: four other countries launched an international network together at COP 75 00:04:53,600 --> 00:04:58,040 Speaker 2: twenty six. What we have in common is we are 76 00:04:58,600 --> 00:05:02,400 Speaker 2: expert advisors to our resis inspective national governments on climate 77 00:05:02,400 --> 00:05:06,840 Speaker 2: policy specifically. And you're right, there are some differences between us. 78 00:05:06,839 --> 00:05:10,040 Speaker 2: So some of our colleague organizations like the CCC, are 79 00:05:10,240 --> 00:05:14,240 Speaker 2: creatures of Parliament. Some of our organizations like ours are 80 00:05:14,360 --> 00:05:17,520 Speaker 2: independent charities. But what we have in common is we 81 00:05:17,560 --> 00:05:20,080 Speaker 2: have a formal relationship of some sort with our national 82 00:05:20,120 --> 00:05:24,599 Speaker 2: governments to provide good advice, to track progress and to 83 00:05:24,640 --> 00:05:27,800 Speaker 2: suggest improvements in terms of getting back on track. 84 00:05:28,760 --> 00:05:32,360 Speaker 1: So, talking of progress, the Canadian government under Justin Trudeau 85 00:05:32,839 --> 00:05:35,400 Speaker 1: has set a goal to reduce its greenhouse gas emissions 86 00:05:35,400 --> 00:05:38,640 Speaker 1: by forty to forty five percent by twenty thirty relative 87 00:05:38,680 --> 00:05:41,560 Speaker 1: to two thousand and five levels. And the latest check 88 00:05:41,600 --> 00:05:46,320 Speaker 1: on emissions that you provided last year through CCI shows 89 00:05:46,360 --> 00:05:51,840 Speaker 1: that the decarbonization of electricity is going well, but oil 90 00:05:51,880 --> 00:05:55,719 Speaker 1: and gas sector emissions are rising. I had the pleasure 91 00:05:55,920 --> 00:06:00,520 Speaker 1: to interview Justin Trudeau on invitation from the Canadian Climate 92 00:06:00,520 --> 00:06:03,279 Speaker 1: Institute back in twenty twenty two, and my first question 93 00:06:03,320 --> 00:06:07,320 Speaker 1: to him was that all the seven countries have grown 94 00:06:07,320 --> 00:06:11,240 Speaker 1: their economies and reduced their emissions, Canada has not. Its 95 00:06:11,240 --> 00:06:15,840 Speaker 1: emissions were at that time largely flat. Has there been 96 00:06:15,880 --> 00:06:17,520 Speaker 1: progress since then? 97 00:06:18,240 --> 00:06:20,040 Speaker 2: You've packed a heck of a lot into that question. 98 00:06:21,120 --> 00:06:24,120 Speaker 2: Let me let me unpack that a little bit. Let's 99 00:06:24,160 --> 00:06:27,400 Speaker 2: just start by looking at where Canada is at in 100 00:06:27,480 --> 00:06:31,200 Speaker 2: terms of decarbonization. Yes, I'm delighted to report that there 101 00:06:31,200 --> 00:06:34,719 Speaker 2: has been progress since since twenty twenty two. In fact, 102 00:06:34,839 --> 00:06:38,760 Speaker 2: since two thousand and five, national emissions overall in Canada 103 00:06:38,800 --> 00:06:41,120 Speaker 2: are down about eight percent according to our calculations. I 104 00:06:41,120 --> 00:06:43,640 Speaker 2: think we're going to be down again in this next year. 105 00:06:44,480 --> 00:06:46,320 Speaker 2: So you know, good news. For the first time in 106 00:06:46,320 --> 00:06:51,919 Speaker 2: the country's history, we've inflected the carbon curve downward. But 107 00:06:52,040 --> 00:06:54,280 Speaker 2: if you dig down a little bit, what you see 108 00:06:54,320 --> 00:06:59,320 Speaker 2: is real differences between sectors. So fantastic news in our 109 00:06:59,400 --> 00:07:04,360 Speaker 2: electricity sector. For instance, electricity sector emissions down about sixty 110 00:07:04,400 --> 00:07:08,320 Speaker 2: percent since two thousand and five. Most provinces now off 111 00:07:08,360 --> 00:07:12,960 Speaker 2: of coal. Significant uptake of renewables across the country, including 112 00:07:13,520 --> 00:07:18,280 Speaker 2: in provinces governed by by conservative parties provincially, so great, 113 00:07:18,400 --> 00:07:24,040 Speaker 2: great things happening, And clearly the regulatory framework driving decarbonization 114 00:07:24,120 --> 00:07:29,360 Speaker 2: in the electricity sector is largely working. Buildings, some decarbonization 115 00:07:29,480 --> 00:07:32,600 Speaker 2: happening again, a little bit variable by province. In terms 116 00:07:32,640 --> 00:07:37,160 Speaker 2: of a transportation decarbonization, some variability by province, a big 117 00:07:37,240 --> 00:07:40,640 Speaker 2: uptake of electric vehicles in some provinces, not so much 118 00:07:40,640 --> 00:07:45,040 Speaker 2: in others. Where we see more progress needed is when 119 00:07:45,040 --> 00:07:48,120 Speaker 2: it comes to oil and gas industry emissions. So those 120 00:07:48,120 --> 00:07:53,000 Speaker 2: which increasing, So those emissions are actually increasing about ten 121 00:07:53,040 --> 00:07:59,040 Speaker 2: percent up since two thousand and five overall. And you know, interestingly, 122 00:07:59,200 --> 00:08:03,600 Speaker 2: as we see now emissions going down in other sectors, 123 00:08:04,160 --> 00:08:08,200 Speaker 2: we see the percentage of oil and gas sector emissions, 124 00:08:08,720 --> 00:08:13,720 Speaker 2: that chunk of the Canadian emissions pie increasing, and now 125 00:08:13,760 --> 00:08:18,520 Speaker 2: over thirty percent of national emissions attributable to oil and 126 00:08:18,520 --> 00:08:19,120 Speaker 2: gas production. 127 00:08:19,400 --> 00:08:22,840 Speaker 1: And all this is before Donald Trump took White House, 128 00:08:23,720 --> 00:08:26,080 Speaker 1: and since his election, of course, there's been a huge 129 00:08:26,120 --> 00:08:30,600 Speaker 1: amount of focus now in Canada on energy security, on 130 00:08:30,680 --> 00:08:35,440 Speaker 1: diversification of energy markets, which suggests that more pipelines will 131 00:08:35,440 --> 00:08:37,880 Speaker 1: be built, perhaps not to the US, but to the 132 00:08:37,920 --> 00:08:40,400 Speaker 1: East and West coast so that Canada can continue to 133 00:08:40,440 --> 00:08:43,600 Speaker 1: export its fossil fuels. How concerned are you that the 134 00:08:44,080 --> 00:08:47,319 Speaker 1: impact of whatever Trump does is actually going to increase 135 00:08:47,600 --> 00:08:51,280 Speaker 1: Canada's reliance on extractive industries and further increase oil and 136 00:08:51,320 --> 00:08:52,079 Speaker 1: gas emissions. 137 00:08:52,240 --> 00:09:00,240 Speaker 2: Yeah. Look, it's inarguable that what President Trump is doing, 138 00:09:00,320 --> 00:09:02,920 Speaker 2: what his administration is doing with respect to climate policy, 139 00:09:03,160 --> 00:09:08,839 Speaker 2: is uniformly unhelpful. I do think that there's a lot 140 00:09:08,880 --> 00:09:11,360 Speaker 2: of dust that has to settle over the next few 141 00:09:11,400 --> 00:09:14,720 Speaker 2: months in terms of the actual impact of these things. 142 00:09:15,360 --> 00:09:20,840 Speaker 2: You know, unclear, for instance, whether the president's administration can 143 00:09:21,080 --> 00:09:24,959 Speaker 2: overturn without congressional approval, a lot of the very helpful 144 00:09:25,200 --> 00:09:29,079 Speaker 2: tax credits in the Inflation Reduction Act. It is unclear 145 00:09:29,800 --> 00:09:34,040 Speaker 2: the extent to which the Trump administration can overrule. The 146 00:09:34,200 --> 00:09:37,960 Speaker 2: two dozen or so US states led by California, New York, 147 00:09:38,000 --> 00:09:40,400 Speaker 2: some of the biggest states who've served notice that they 148 00:09:40,440 --> 00:09:46,440 Speaker 2: are going to proceed with ambitious electricity sector decarbonization, electric 149 00:09:46,520 --> 00:09:51,640 Speaker 2: vehicle regulated sales targets. The US Climate Alliance states represent 150 00:09:51,720 --> 00:09:54,640 Speaker 2: about fifty percent of the US population, and what we 151 00:09:54,679 --> 00:09:57,000 Speaker 2: see at the moment I mean with vehicles in the 152 00:09:57,080 --> 00:10:00,840 Speaker 2: United States, for instance, is basically a bifurcated market where 153 00:10:00,840 --> 00:10:05,720 Speaker 2: you have the California led group of states administering a 154 00:10:05,800 --> 00:10:10,120 Speaker 2: European style ZEV mandate, and then you have the federal 155 00:10:10,160 --> 00:10:14,400 Speaker 2: government tailpipe standards being followed by the other half of 156 00:10:14,440 --> 00:10:17,120 Speaker 2: the US economy. You know, of course, the US, like Canada, 157 00:10:17,160 --> 00:10:21,280 Speaker 2: is a federal country. States have substantial constitutional authority to 158 00:10:21,400 --> 00:10:25,840 Speaker 2: regulate in areas relevant to climate policy. So, you know, 159 00:10:25,920 --> 00:10:29,760 Speaker 2: as unhelpful as the Trump administration wants to be, as 160 00:10:29,800 --> 00:10:32,720 Speaker 2: much as they want to impede climate progress, I would 161 00:10:32,760 --> 00:10:37,079 Speaker 2: suggest it's premature to jump to conclusions about how far 162 00:10:37,080 --> 00:10:38,119 Speaker 2: they're going to get. 163 00:10:38,480 --> 00:10:41,120 Speaker 1: But if you're looking at the numbers from two thousand 164 00:10:41,120 --> 00:10:43,800 Speaker 1: and five, levels emissions are down as of twenty twenty 165 00:10:43,840 --> 00:10:47,319 Speaker 1: three by eight percent. They need to be down as 166 00:10:47,360 --> 00:10:52,000 Speaker 1: a legally bound target by forty percent by twenty thirty, 167 00:10:52,520 --> 00:10:55,719 Speaker 1: and so the piece has to pick up. But at 168 00:10:55,760 --> 00:11:01,240 Speaker 1: this point, when the focus is being drawn away from 169 00:11:01,280 --> 00:11:07,400 Speaker 1: climate and do much more carbon intensive industrial conversation, even 170 00:11:07,440 --> 00:11:11,320 Speaker 1: if there is no right now on paper direct impact, 171 00:11:11,679 --> 00:11:14,720 Speaker 1: doesn't that slow down progress at a time and it 172 00:11:14,760 --> 00:11:16,000 Speaker 1: actually needs to accelerate. 173 00:11:16,840 --> 00:11:18,640 Speaker 2: Well, it's certainly not going to help. I mean, you're 174 00:11:18,640 --> 00:11:22,360 Speaker 2: absolutely right in a fact, according to our analysis, absent 175 00:11:22,600 --> 00:11:25,880 Speaker 2: adding some new policies to the table, Canada is actually 176 00:11:25,880 --> 00:11:28,560 Speaker 2: not on track for forty to forty five percent reduction 177 00:11:28,679 --> 00:11:31,480 Speaker 2: by twenty thirty by our calculation, at the current rate, 178 00:11:31,480 --> 00:11:34,080 Speaker 2: we're probably headed towards something like thirty five percent or 179 00:11:34,120 --> 00:11:38,280 Speaker 2: slightly less. So we've provided to the federal governments over 180 00:11:38,280 --> 00:11:41,520 Speaker 2: the last couple of years a variety of suggestions in 181 00:11:41,640 --> 00:11:45,240 Speaker 2: terms of how to accelerate progress, how to both increase 182 00:11:45,280 --> 00:11:49,240 Speaker 2: the effectiveness of existing policy and add some new policy 183 00:11:49,280 --> 00:11:51,560 Speaker 2: to the table to get us on track. I do 184 00:11:51,640 --> 00:11:55,360 Speaker 2: want to underline here the Canada's a federal country, and 185 00:11:55,400 --> 00:11:58,080 Speaker 2: so one of the things that I suspect you're going 186 00:11:58,120 --> 00:12:00,199 Speaker 2: to see in Canada over the next few years is 187 00:12:00,400 --> 00:12:04,200 Speaker 2: climate change advocates. Regardless of what happens in our federal election, 188 00:12:04,600 --> 00:12:09,040 Speaker 2: I think there's the acknowledgment in the climate policy community 189 00:12:09,280 --> 00:12:13,520 Speaker 2: that more attention needs to be put on provincial action, 190 00:12:13,800 --> 00:12:17,880 Speaker 2: on municipal action, partially because we've had a relatively sympathetic 191 00:12:17,960 --> 00:12:20,880 Speaker 2: federal government over the last decade, Virtually all of the 192 00:12:20,880 --> 00:12:23,160 Speaker 2: attention in terms of climate policy has been focused in 193 00:12:23,200 --> 00:12:25,840 Speaker 2: the federal government, and in our system, there's only so 194 00:12:25,920 --> 00:12:29,400 Speaker 2: far the federal government can get in many areas of 195 00:12:29,480 --> 00:12:33,079 Speaker 2: climate policy and regulation. So in many cases, for instance, 196 00:12:33,080 --> 00:12:35,280 Speaker 2: the federal government has tried to do something has been 197 00:12:35,600 --> 00:12:40,480 Speaker 2: taken to court by provinces. That continues. My point here 198 00:12:40,559 --> 00:12:44,080 Speaker 2: is that even in a Trump era that will extend 199 00:12:44,120 --> 00:12:48,360 Speaker 2: for some years, there is substantial scope in the United States, 200 00:12:48,480 --> 00:12:52,400 Speaker 2: in Canada for subnational action, and in fact it's already 201 00:12:52,440 --> 00:12:55,680 Speaker 2: the case that some of those important subnational actors are 202 00:12:55,760 --> 00:13:00,240 Speaker 2: creating cross border cooperation. So Quebec and California for since 203 00:13:00,280 --> 00:13:04,200 Speaker 2: have long been part of a common carbon credit market, 204 00:13:04,960 --> 00:13:07,880 Speaker 2: and I suspect we're going to see more of that 205 00:13:08,000 --> 00:13:12,560 Speaker 2: continental subnational action in the years they had and some 206 00:13:12,640 --> 00:13:15,840 Speaker 2: of these subnational actors very large. Of course, if California 207 00:13:15,880 --> 00:13:19,000 Speaker 2: were its own country, it would be the fifth largest 208 00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:23,600 Speaker 2: economy on the planet. So these are not small actors here, 209 00:13:23,640 --> 00:13:24,440 Speaker 2: they're consequential. 210 00:13:24,720 --> 00:13:27,640 Speaker 1: Point taking that provincial governments can do a lot, but 211 00:13:28,240 --> 00:13:31,199 Speaker 1: when you do have climate policies at the federal level, 212 00:13:31,559 --> 00:13:35,440 Speaker 1: they can add up to how much more provinces can do. Now, 213 00:13:35,559 --> 00:13:38,520 Speaker 1: one of Trudeau's signature climate policy was to put a 214 00:13:38,520 --> 00:13:41,960 Speaker 1: price and pollution and then give most of that money 215 00:13:42,080 --> 00:13:45,079 Speaker 1: back to citizens. So the poorest people would get more 216 00:13:45,120 --> 00:13:49,200 Speaker 1: money back from the government than they would potentially spend 217 00:13:49,520 --> 00:13:53,640 Speaker 1: on higher costs and goods, and richer people who have 218 00:13:53,679 --> 00:13:58,000 Speaker 1: more carbon intensive lifestyles will pay more. All the leaders 219 00:13:58,200 --> 00:14:00,880 Speaker 1: in Canada who are now wanting to be power, we 220 00:14:00,960 --> 00:14:04,520 Speaker 1: have the Liberal Party that's going through its own election 221 00:14:04,920 --> 00:14:08,360 Speaker 1: that'll get concluded sometime in March, and then the Parliament 222 00:14:08,400 --> 00:14:10,880 Speaker 1: will come back and at some point there will be 223 00:14:10,920 --> 00:14:13,640 Speaker 1: a general election. All the leaders who want to be 224 00:14:13,679 --> 00:14:16,760 Speaker 1: in power in Canada are now promising in one form 225 00:14:16,840 --> 00:14:19,400 Speaker 1: or the other to roll back some of the price 226 00:14:19,520 --> 00:14:22,520 Speaker 1: on pollution. Can you talk through what type of rollback 227 00:14:22,680 --> 00:14:23,800 Speaker 1: are we likely to see. 228 00:14:23,840 --> 00:14:25,960 Speaker 2: We've in the last couple of years in our country, 229 00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:28,520 Speaker 2: we've kind of backed ourselves into this strange cul de 230 00:14:28,600 --> 00:14:33,520 Speaker 2: sac when it comes to climate policy. By our institute's calculations, 231 00:14:34,120 --> 00:14:38,000 Speaker 2: best case scenario, the contribution of the Canadian consumer carbon 232 00:14:38,040 --> 00:14:42,280 Speaker 2: price to emission reductions by twenty thirty is at best 233 00:14:42,480 --> 00:14:47,520 Speaker 2: ten percent. And yet, for a variety of reasons, political 234 00:14:47,560 --> 00:14:52,040 Speaker 2: and otherwise, the debate surrounding the fate of the consumer 235 00:14:52,120 --> 00:14:55,240 Speaker 2: carbon price has probably occupied I don't think it's an 236 00:14:55,280 --> 00:14:59,160 Speaker 2: exaggeration to say that ninety five percent of the entire 237 00:14:59,240 --> 00:15:02,720 Speaker 2: climate changesscussion in our country has swirled around this one 238 00:15:02,800 --> 00:15:06,760 Speaker 2: policy for at least two years, and we need to 239 00:15:06,760 --> 00:15:08,800 Speaker 2: get out of that. One of the things we've done 240 00:15:08,840 --> 00:15:11,040 Speaker 2: over the last couple of years is pointed to the 241 00:15:11,040 --> 00:15:16,880 Speaker 2: fact that we need to focus on climate policy progress 242 00:15:16,920 --> 00:15:21,280 Speaker 2: across a range of policies, and there are many other 243 00:15:21,320 --> 00:15:24,480 Speaker 2: policies that are far more consequential in terms of emission reduction, 244 00:15:24,720 --> 00:15:28,320 Speaker 2: name the industrial carbon price probably thirty to forty percent 245 00:15:28,440 --> 00:15:31,160 Speaker 2: of the solution by twenty thirty, partially because it just 246 00:15:31,240 --> 00:15:34,800 Speaker 2: captures it applied to a much larger basket of emissions 247 00:15:35,240 --> 00:15:40,560 Speaker 2: than the consumer carbon price. Continued electrification across the country penetration. 248 00:15:40,960 --> 00:15:44,120 Speaker 2: You know, various policies meant to expedite the uptake of 249 00:15:44,160 --> 00:15:48,360 Speaker 2: electric vehicles are methane regular because, partially because of oil 250 00:15:48,360 --> 00:15:51,760 Speaker 2: and gas sector so large, methane regulations a huge part 251 00:15:51,800 --> 00:15:55,280 Speaker 2: of the solution by twenty thirty. So there's probably a 252 00:15:55,320 --> 00:16:00,560 Speaker 2: couple of dozen other policies that are important in terms 253 00:16:00,600 --> 00:16:04,960 Speaker 2: of progress by twenty thirty that are relatively unexamined in 254 00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:08,520 Speaker 2: the public debate, and that needs some improvement. And so 255 00:16:08,600 --> 00:16:10,920 Speaker 2: if you know, obviously it's not ideal if the country 256 00:16:10,960 --> 00:16:15,200 Speaker 2: moves off of consumer carbon pricing in an age when 257 00:16:15,560 --> 00:16:19,440 Speaker 2: affordability concerns animate all aspects of politics. I'm not sure 258 00:16:19,440 --> 00:16:23,600 Speaker 2: it's surprising, to be honest, but there are other policies 259 00:16:23,640 --> 00:16:24,600 Speaker 2: that are far more important. 260 00:16:25,520 --> 00:16:28,200 Speaker 1: So if the industrial carbon price is going to do 261 00:16:28,240 --> 00:16:30,400 Speaker 1: so much of the heavy lifting going into twenty thirties, 262 00:16:30,640 --> 00:16:33,160 Speaker 1: I know you can't comment on specific political parties, but 263 00:16:33,200 --> 00:16:36,120 Speaker 1: at least one of the major parties, the Conservatives, are 264 00:16:36,160 --> 00:16:38,960 Speaker 1: trying to push back against any form of carbon pricing 265 00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:42,360 Speaker 1: which might even weaken the industrial common price. 266 00:16:42,440 --> 00:16:45,800 Speaker 2: Right. Well, it's actually the industrial carbon price is actually 267 00:16:45,880 --> 00:16:49,200 Speaker 2: quite a different system in our country than the consumer 268 00:16:49,280 --> 00:16:51,520 Speaker 2: price now, I think it's important to note here that 269 00:16:51,600 --> 00:16:55,200 Speaker 2: industrial carbon pricing, unlike consumer carbon pricing, has not been 270 00:16:55,240 --> 00:16:59,760 Speaker 2: the topic of raging public discussion over the last few years. 271 00:16:59,760 --> 00:17:03,600 Speaker 2: And one reason is that industrial carbon pricing was invented 272 00:17:03,880 --> 00:17:07,240 Speaker 2: at a provincial level and then spread across the country. 273 00:17:08,080 --> 00:17:12,720 Speaker 2: And this trajectory of public policy, or the move from 274 00:17:13,080 --> 00:17:17,199 Speaker 2: a province to a national level phenomenon, is actually a 275 00:17:17,200 --> 00:17:21,639 Speaker 2: hallmark of enduring, sometimes enduring Canadian public policy. This is 276 00:17:21,640 --> 00:17:24,760 Speaker 2: what happened with our medicare system, our public healthcare system, 277 00:17:24,800 --> 00:17:29,560 Speaker 2: for instance. So I think there's some basis to believe 278 00:17:29,640 --> 00:17:33,560 Speaker 2: that industry. There's many heavy emitting industries across the country 279 00:17:34,160 --> 00:17:37,239 Speaker 2: that are quite supportive of industrial carbon pricing because one 280 00:17:37,240 --> 00:17:39,480 Speaker 2: of the things it does is create a lucrative credit market, 281 00:17:39,880 --> 00:17:43,240 Speaker 2: and those credits now exist on balance sheets right across 282 00:17:43,280 --> 00:17:47,119 Speaker 2: the country. So industrial carbon pricing, which only applies to 283 00:17:47,640 --> 00:17:51,919 Speaker 2: exporting industries so there is no interface with Canadian consumers, 284 00:17:51,960 --> 00:17:58,080 Speaker 2: meant to both reduce emissions and increase the competitiveness of 285 00:17:58,119 --> 00:18:01,520 Speaker 2: Canadian industry. So I think that's a winning argument. 286 00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:13,600 Speaker 1: After the break, more of my conversation with Rick Smith 287 00:18:13,680 --> 00:18:17,240 Speaker 1: of the Canadian Climate Institute by the way. If you've 288 00:18:17,280 --> 00:18:19,600 Speaker 1: been enjoying this episode, please take a moment to rate 289 00:18:19,640 --> 00:18:22,879 Speaker 1: and review the show on Apple and Spotify. It helps 290 00:18:22,920 --> 00:18:33,359 Speaker 1: other listeners find the show if it wasn't already. The 291 00:18:33,480 --> 00:18:38,880 Speaker 1: twenty twenty three record breaking wildfires in Canada showed people 292 00:18:39,280 --> 00:18:43,520 Speaker 1: the scale and the intensity that climate driven extreme weather 293 00:18:43,560 --> 00:18:47,760 Speaker 1: events can bring. At the CCI, you also look at 294 00:18:47,760 --> 00:18:51,560 Speaker 1: how Canada can adapt to climate change. Adaptation is often 295 00:18:51,760 --> 00:18:54,800 Speaker 1: the forgotten cousin in the climate equation. People only think 296 00:18:54,840 --> 00:18:58,760 Speaker 1: really about reducing emissions. How is Canada doing on the 297 00:18:58,800 --> 00:18:59,680 Speaker 1: adaptation front? 298 00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:03,600 Speaker 2: The adaptation is an increasing part of the debate in 299 00:19:03,640 --> 00:19:06,920 Speaker 2: our country. In the last few years, the table has 300 00:19:06,920 --> 00:19:10,239 Speaker 2: been completely reset in terms of the public understanding of 301 00:19:10,520 --> 00:19:15,160 Speaker 2: climate driven extreme weather. Last summer alone, over a few 302 00:19:15,240 --> 00:19:20,800 Speaker 2: days in August in southern Quebec, that province saw devastating 303 00:19:20,840 --> 00:19:25,679 Speaker 2: flooding and actually the most expensive natural disaster in Quebec's history. 304 00:19:26,040 --> 00:19:29,399 Speaker 2: Last August, in the west of our country, the beautiful, 305 00:19:29,800 --> 00:19:33,119 Speaker 2: world renowned mountain town of Jasper essentially burned to the 306 00:19:33,119 --> 00:19:39,600 Speaker 2: ground because of raging wildfires. The first stage of rebuilding 307 00:19:39,840 --> 00:19:43,400 Speaker 2: that town almost a billion dollars Canadian. One of our 308 00:19:44,080 --> 00:19:46,840 Speaker 2: strong partners of the Canadian Climate Institute is the Canadian 309 00:19:46,840 --> 00:19:51,600 Speaker 2: insurance industry. The insurance industry fascinating to work with because 310 00:19:51,640 --> 00:19:57,480 Speaker 2: as an industry there's structurally risk averse, but yet because 311 00:19:57,520 --> 00:20:01,359 Speaker 2: of the product that they sell, they're being forced to 312 00:20:01,400 --> 00:20:04,400 Speaker 2: grapple on a daily basis with the realities of climate change, 313 00:20:04,440 --> 00:20:06,720 Speaker 2: the measurable realities of climate change, in a way that 314 00:20:06,760 --> 00:20:09,000 Speaker 2: no other industry is, and so we work with them increasingly. 315 00:20:09,640 --> 00:20:13,000 Speaker 2: And the Insurance Bureau of Canada calculated twenty twenty four 316 00:20:13,080 --> 00:20:16,080 Speaker 2: to be the most expensive year in Canadian history, over 317 00:20:16,160 --> 00:20:21,760 Speaker 2: eight billion dollars in insured losses across the country, mostly 318 00:20:21,760 --> 00:20:26,560 Speaker 2: from climate driven weather. So you know whether it's wildfires 319 00:20:26,640 --> 00:20:29,359 Speaker 2: in the west of our country flooding in the east. 320 00:20:30,160 --> 00:20:31,960 Speaker 2: In some parts of our country over the last couple years, 321 00:20:31,960 --> 00:20:35,240 Speaker 2: there's been both flooding and wildfires at the same time, 322 00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:38,919 Speaker 2: as happened in Halifax in our East coast two years ago. 323 00:20:39,680 --> 00:20:45,080 Speaker 2: This has transformed the Canadian understanding of climate change and 324 00:20:45,800 --> 00:20:48,360 Speaker 2: in a very short period of time, rendered what used 325 00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:52,159 Speaker 2: to be a kind of notional discussion of effects our 326 00:20:52,280 --> 00:20:55,000 Speaker 2: children and grandchildren might have to deal with sometime down 327 00:20:55,080 --> 00:21:00,520 Speaker 2: the road into a far more urgent discussion of you know, 328 00:21:00,600 --> 00:21:04,119 Speaker 2: the security of my family and of my neighbor's family, 329 00:21:04,359 --> 00:21:08,440 Speaker 2: and of our communities. So, you know, I think climate 330 00:21:08,520 --> 00:21:13,640 Speaker 2: change in our country has been permanently moved from an 331 00:21:13,760 --> 00:21:22,119 Speaker 2: environmental policy pigeonhole into a far more powerful public policy discussion, 332 00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:26,160 Speaker 2: you know, in the same space that you see healthcare, crime, 333 00:21:27,080 --> 00:21:31,639 Speaker 2: these other far more approximate threats to human security. You know. 334 00:21:31,680 --> 00:21:35,000 Speaker 2: Does that mean that, you know, every decision maker across 335 00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:37,320 Speaker 2: the country is motivated to make the right decisions on 336 00:21:37,359 --> 00:21:39,800 Speaker 2: climate policy every day of the week. No, but it's 337 00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:43,960 Speaker 2: always there, kind of lurking under the surface, a risk 338 00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:47,040 Speaker 2: to be managed by political leaders. I think that's where 339 00:21:47,040 --> 00:21:48,879 Speaker 2: we're at in our country when it comes to climate change. 340 00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:51,199 Speaker 2: And so we spend a lot of time at our 341 00:21:51,240 --> 00:21:57,400 Speaker 2: institute trying to quantify the damage of wildfires and flooding, 342 00:21:57,480 --> 00:21:59,960 Speaker 2: how to come up with policy solutions to keep Canadian 343 00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:05,280 Speaker 2: communities safer, and it's become a fundamental part of our argument. 344 00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:11,960 Speaker 2: That's too often the climate change discussion is dominated by 345 00:22:12,520 --> 00:22:15,520 Speaker 2: a fixation on the alleged costs of taking action and 346 00:22:15,600 --> 00:22:19,879 Speaker 2: climate change, when in fact, the increasing measurable costs or 347 00:22:19,880 --> 00:22:22,879 Speaker 2: the cost of our inaction and we're seeing that across 348 00:22:22,880 --> 00:22:23,560 Speaker 2: Canada every day. 349 00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:28,000 Speaker 1: Now, Canada and the US share the longest undefended border 350 00:22:28,280 --> 00:22:32,640 Speaker 1: in the world. Canada has the US as its largest 351 00:22:32,680 --> 00:22:37,240 Speaker 1: trading partner. Most of Canadian oil is going into the US. 352 00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:42,400 Speaker 1: The connections run deep, not just culturally, but at an 353 00:22:42,480 --> 00:22:47,159 Speaker 1: economic and at a carbon level. And so there is 354 00:22:47,200 --> 00:22:52,200 Speaker 1: a very real danger that what happens in this administration 355 00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:56,680 Speaker 1: derails Canada's climate plant. How are you going to start 356 00:22:56,720 --> 00:23:00,840 Speaker 1: advising whichever politicians take power in the next government to 357 00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:02,840 Speaker 1: deal with the Trump threat? 358 00:23:04,760 --> 00:23:07,720 Speaker 2: The speed with which the Canadian national debate has changed 359 00:23:07,760 --> 00:23:10,880 Speaker 2: since January twentieth. This is just unbelievable, since since Trump's 360 00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:14,879 Speaker 2: inauguration and the focus of the national debate now is 361 00:23:15,040 --> 00:23:19,399 Speaker 2: fully how to ensure the success of the national economy, 362 00:23:19,720 --> 00:23:23,240 Speaker 2: given the United States has revealed itself within a matter 363 00:23:23,280 --> 00:23:27,280 Speaker 2: of weeks to be a difficult partner to be polite. 364 00:23:27,560 --> 00:23:30,560 Speaker 2: If the debate is as broad as the future of 365 00:23:30,600 --> 00:23:35,600 Speaker 2: the Canadian economy, there are many carbon relevant factors to 366 00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:39,720 Speaker 2: contribute there. Of course, one of them is that as 367 00:23:39,840 --> 00:23:43,520 Speaker 2: Canada asks itself, okay, well, where if we can't reliably 368 00:23:43,520 --> 00:23:45,720 Speaker 2: trade with the United States, to the extent that we 369 00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:48,880 Speaker 2: have in the past, and we need to start accelerating 370 00:23:48,920 --> 00:23:53,120 Speaker 2: trade with other countries around the world. Well, lo and behold, 371 00:23:53,119 --> 00:23:54,960 Speaker 2: it turns out that a lot of those potential trading 372 00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:59,600 Speaker 2: partners are implementing carbon border adjustments. Yeah, there is rapidly 373 00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:00,480 Speaker 2: decard urbanizing. 374 00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:05,399 Speaker 1: There was a joke made about Canada joining the EU. 375 00:24:06,160 --> 00:24:09,920 Speaker 2: Well, yes, it turns out Canada had a very low 376 00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:12,880 Speaker 2: level conflict with Denmark a few years ago that resulted 377 00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:17,120 Speaker 2: in a very small island in the Arctic being divided 378 00:24:17,119 --> 00:24:19,399 Speaker 2: in two. And Canada turns out shares a one point 379 00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:24,240 Speaker 2: five kilometer border with Denmark on Hans Island in the Arctic. 380 00:24:24,280 --> 00:24:28,040 Speaker 2: And so there's been actually a lot of somewhat serious 381 00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:31,560 Speaker 2: suggestion in the Canadian in the Canadian media that we 382 00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:32,840 Speaker 2: should look at joining the EU. 383 00:24:33,080 --> 00:24:37,120 Speaker 1: Well, it turns out technically the European Union has never 384 00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:42,080 Speaker 1: defined what Europe really means geographically, and so yeah, it 385 00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:42,840 Speaker 1: might just happen. 386 00:24:43,119 --> 00:24:45,600 Speaker 2: Right, Well, so there you go. So we you know, 387 00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:49,000 Speaker 2: we we speculate on geopolitics on this podcast as well. 388 00:24:49,040 --> 00:24:52,119 Speaker 2: But but you know, so are there are many complicated 389 00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:55,199 Speaker 2: questions bound up with this raging national debate about the 390 00:24:55,200 --> 00:25:00,520 Speaker 2: future of the Canadian economy. But it it can't escape 391 00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:05,560 Speaker 2: the notice of Canadian decision makers that regardless what Donald 392 00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:08,040 Speaker 2: Trump is doing over the next couple of years, the 393 00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:14,280 Speaker 2: medium and longer term decarbonization trajectory in the world is set. 394 00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:17,280 Speaker 2: So a couple of weeks ago we saw seventy five 395 00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:22,080 Speaker 2: percent of German voters supporting political parties promising massive climate 396 00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:25,080 Speaker 2: change progress. The trajectory is set in Europe, it's set 397 00:25:25,119 --> 00:25:28,480 Speaker 2: in the United Kingdom. We work with colleague organizations all 398 00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:31,160 Speaker 2: over the world and so we're intimately familiar with what 399 00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:34,359 Speaker 2: the decarbonization debate looks like in the two dozen major 400 00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:39,119 Speaker 2: economies around the world. And yes there are hiccups, Yes 401 00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:42,640 Speaker 2: there are stops and starts, but the trajectory is clear. 402 00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:46,000 Speaker 2: I mean, decarbonization is an industrial imperative. This is the 403 00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:49,400 Speaker 2: case that we and many others will be making in Canada, 404 00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:52,880 Speaker 2: is that it's in the best interest of the Canadian 405 00:25:52,920 --> 00:25:56,359 Speaker 2: economy to figure out how to compete with China when 406 00:25:56,400 --> 00:25:59,960 Speaker 2: it comes to the manufacture of electric vehicles, to ensure 407 00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:02,800 Speaker 2: or that we are mining critical minerals in Canada, to 408 00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:06,200 Speaker 2: ensure that we are doubling down on perhaps the greatest 409 00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:11,240 Speaker 2: Canadian industrial asset, which is dispatchable clean power at a 410 00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:15,320 Speaker 2: time when the world desperately needs that, and every major 411 00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:18,920 Speaker 2: investor in the world is looking is looking for that 412 00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:22,880 Speaker 2: in jurisdictions in which they invest, And so there are 413 00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:29,800 Speaker 2: some of Canada's most important assets revolve around the building 414 00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:33,800 Speaker 2: blocks of decarbonization and we need to exploit those in 415 00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:34,680 Speaker 2: the years ahead. 416 00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:37,440 Speaker 1: Well, the last time Trump came to power, there were 417 00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:42,080 Speaker 1: climate leaders like Trudeau and Germany's Angela Merkel, uk Is 418 00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:46,679 Speaker 1: David Cameron and later Theresa May who were there to 419 00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:51,560 Speaker 1: act as a force against the climate backlash that happened 420 00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:54,480 Speaker 1: in the first term. This time around, there are few 421 00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:58,920 Speaker 1: climate leaders in power. Trude is about to leave his position, 422 00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:04,880 Speaker 1: and there are fewer climate forward parties in the ascendency 423 00:27:05,119 --> 00:27:09,960 Speaker 1: around the world. So how exactly can leaders who understand 424 00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:14,320 Speaker 1: the climate challenge meet the electorate at this moment and 425 00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:17,600 Speaker 1: convince them enough that action on climate change is in 426 00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:20,879 Speaker 1: their self interest so that they can get elected to power. 427 00:27:21,359 --> 00:27:24,200 Speaker 2: Well that one of the advantages that we have now 428 00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:30,159 Speaker 2: versus in Trump's first term is that some of the 429 00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:35,720 Speaker 2: technology that we advocate for has matured and is cheaper 430 00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:38,760 Speaker 2: than ever before, and So one of the things that 431 00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:41,840 Speaker 2: we've measured across our country, for instance, is the relative 432 00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:48,200 Speaker 2: affordability of low emitting electrical options like heat pumps electric vehicles. 433 00:27:49,040 --> 00:27:52,879 Speaker 2: If you're do an apples to apples comparison heat pump 434 00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:58,560 Speaker 2: versus fossil fuel heating, in most Canadian cities, heat pumps 435 00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:01,320 Speaker 2: are the clear winner in terms of being a better 436 00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:04,600 Speaker 2: deal for consumers. Why. Well, because they're more efficient machines. 437 00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:07,840 Speaker 2: They're just better machines. Nobody has ever bought a heat 438 00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:12,400 Speaker 2: pump and said, Wow, I really regret this. I want 439 00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:14,560 Speaker 2: to go back to my clunky old furnace right Like, 440 00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:17,320 Speaker 2: they're just better machines. And maybe I'm saying this as 441 00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:22,360 Speaker 2: a gen X or who's lived through the transition from 442 00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:25,239 Speaker 2: cassette tapes to CDs to streaming, and from rotary dow 443 00:28:25,359 --> 00:28:30,439 Speaker 2: phones to mobile phones. Sometimes the new machines are just better. 444 00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:32,000 Speaker 1: It's true of electric cars too. 445 00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:34,160 Speaker 2: It's true of electric cars too. I mean, anybody who's 446 00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:38,000 Speaker 2: driven an electric vehicle thinks the pickup's incredible, the handling 447 00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:42,080 Speaker 2: is incredible, They're they're amazing. They're better machines. So I'm 448 00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:48,360 Speaker 2: optimistic that this argument about affordability quite often, I think 449 00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:53,320 Speaker 2: cuts against the grain for a lot of environmental policy experts. 450 00:28:53,360 --> 00:28:57,800 Speaker 2: I think quite often as environment environmental policy people, we 451 00:28:58,040 --> 00:29:02,880 Speaker 2: default to kind of hair shirt arguments. People to turn 452 00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:05,560 Speaker 2: down the thermostat and wear a sweater and suck it 453 00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:07,840 Speaker 2: up because it's going to be good for them. You know, 454 00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:13,560 Speaker 2: at this moment in time, electric vehicles, heat pumps, these 455 00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:18,480 Speaker 2: machines that are the foundations of a low emission's future. 456 00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:23,240 Speaker 2: In many ways, they sell themselves and in fact are 457 00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:27,640 Speaker 2: so much cheaper than the fossil fuel alternatives, even in 458 00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:33,120 Speaker 2: completely deregulated marketplaces like Texas and Alberta on our continent. 459 00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:37,080 Speaker 2: The only two fully deregulated electricity markets on the continent 460 00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:43,160 Speaker 2: are in those two jurisdictions. And guess what when everything 461 00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:45,720 Speaker 2: else is cleared away, when the only thing that matters 462 00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:50,960 Speaker 2: is how much you can build your project for when 463 00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:55,840 Speaker 2: the system is completely technology agnostic, the technologies that wind 464 00:29:55,840 --> 00:29:58,280 Speaker 2: are wind and solar, because there's so much cheaper and 465 00:29:58,280 --> 00:30:00,880 Speaker 2: that's why Texas is building some much wind and solar, 466 00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:06,280 Speaker 2: and until recently Alberta was as well. So you know, 467 00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:10,320 Speaker 2: in the years ahead, even with Trump creating, you know, 468 00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:16,320 Speaker 2: whatever mayhem he tries to create. We have affordability arguments 469 00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:21,760 Speaker 2: on our side, and we also have arguments about competitive 470 00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:26,880 Speaker 2: necessity on our side. If North America wants to build 471 00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:30,760 Speaker 2: the cars of the future at a time when fifty 472 00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:35,080 Speaker 2: percent of cars in China are electric, we need to 473 00:30:35,080 --> 00:30:37,400 Speaker 2: get a move on in terms of electric vehicle manufacturing. 474 00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:43,520 Speaker 2: It's it's a competitive necessity, and so we need to 475 00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:49,840 Speaker 2: resist this kind of future of luddism that that Trump 476 00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:50,960 Speaker 2: is trying to drag us into. 477 00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:54,680 Speaker 1: Well, you're in for a political ride this year, Rick, 478 00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:57,560 Speaker 1: But thank you for coming on the shoe and giving 479 00:30:57,640 --> 00:31:01,040 Speaker 1: us a taste of what might be coming in Canada 480 00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:02,080 Speaker 1: on the climate front. 481 00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:03,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you, Thanks for having. 482 00:31:03,800 --> 00:31:16,880 Speaker 1: Me, Thank you for listening to Zero. And now for 483 00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:30,320 Speaker 1: the sound of the week. That's the sound of ice hockey, which, 484 00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:34,040 Speaker 1: like so many things these days, has become political when 485 00:31:34,080 --> 00:31:37,480 Speaker 1: the usual polite Canadians booed the American anthem in a 486 00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:42,240 Speaker 1: recent game. Share this episode with a friend or with 487 00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:44,920 Speaker 1: an ice hockey fan. You can get in touch at 488 00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:48,000 Speaker 1: zero pod at Bloomberg dot Net. Zero's producer is Miight 489 00:31:48,120 --> 00:31:51,080 Speaker 1: Lee Roud. Bloomberg's had a podcast is Sage Barman, and 490 00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:54,200 Speaker 1: head of Talk is Brendan Munan. Our theme music is 491 00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:57,920 Speaker 1: composed by Wonder May Special thanks to Shawan Wagner, Danny 492 00:31:57,960 --> 00:32:02,160 Speaker 1: Bokov and Jessica Bagan. I am actual writing back soon.