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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Favorites, the podcast presented by bet three

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Speaker 1: six ' five. We are part of the Action Network.

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Speaker 1: I am chev Milman, Chief Content Officer of the Action Network.

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Speaker 1: Today is opening day for Major League Baseball, But in

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Speaker 1: the past week, the hottest topic in baseball has not

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Speaker 1: been who will win the World Series? Or is Juan

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Speaker 1: Soto the difference for the Yankees? Or is Shohei Otani

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Speaker 1: worth seven hundred million dollars. It is about Otani. It

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Speaker 1: is about the gambling scandal that has surrounded him and

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Speaker 1: his now former interpreter. In the category of holy crap,

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Speaker 1: does our next guest have amazing timing? Keith O'Brien, an

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Speaker 1: award winning Capital Jade journalist in New York Times best

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Speaker 1: selling author, has a new book out this week, The

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Speaker 1: Man at the Center, about the man at the center

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Speaker 1: of baseball's biggest betting scandal of all time, Pete Rose.

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Speaker 2: The new book is titled.

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Speaker 1: Charlie Hussel, The Rise and Fall of Pete Rose and

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Speaker 1: the Last Glory Days of Baseball, Available now wherever fine

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Speaker 1: books are sold. This week, we ran an excerpt of

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Speaker 1: the book on actionnetwork dot com, in which Keith revealed

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Speaker 1: MLB had been investigating Pete Rose's betting habits for more

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Speaker 1: than a decade before it was revealed he had been

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Speaker 1: betting on baseball and ultimately banned from the sport. We

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Speaker 1: will get into what the past has taught us about

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Speaker 1: handling betting, handling today's betting scandals like the one with

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Speaker 1: Otani and his interpreter, plus new revelations in the book, which,

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Speaker 1: by the way, the Wall Street Journal calls compulsively readable

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Speaker 1: and holy terrific. As always, I am joined by my

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Speaker 1: co host, my companion, my padre, my BFF, professional better

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Speaker 1: Simon Hunter Ello.

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Speaker 3: Simon, Yeah, what a day for Chad.

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Speaker 4: Chad somehow new months ago his Spidey senses intuition to

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Speaker 4: line up this interview this week with everything that's happened.

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Speaker 4: So yeah, hat tip to Chad. You can't teach you people.

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Speaker 4: You're either born with it or not, and my guy,

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Speaker 4: Chad is born with it.

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Speaker 2: Listen.

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Speaker 1: I can claim no credit all credit to Keith he

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Speaker 1: and I. He and I first chatted in January about

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Speaker 1: having him come on the show the week the book

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Speaker 1: came out, which is this week. I've read the book

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Speaker 1: and we are going to ask a lot of questions

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Speaker 1: about gambling. I do want to be clear, this book

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Speaker 1: is much much bigger than Pete Rose and his gambling scandals.

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Speaker 2: It is brilliant, it is thorough.

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Speaker 1: Oh It's an examination of the often scandalous life of

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Speaker 1: the best hitter and probably the most intriguing personality in

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Speaker 1: baseball history, who, even into his eighties, now still captures

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Speaker 1: people's imagination. We're going to get to Keith in one second.

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Speaker 1: As a reminder, the Favorite Podcast is presented by North

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Speaker 1: found in this episode description. If you're in North Carolina,

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Speaker 1: check out the link in the episode description. As a reminder,

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Speaker 1: catch every episode of the Favorites live on YouTube. For

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Speaker 1: those enjoying on YouTube, don't forget to give us a

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Speaker 1: like and subscribe to the Action Network YouTube page. Finally,

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Speaker 1: Cincinnati's finest New York Times best selling author, author of

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Speaker 1: Charlie Hussele Keith O'Brien, dude, tell us how crazy it

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Speaker 1: has been to have this book come out this week.

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Speaker 2: Give us some of the stories.

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Speaker 5: Well, it's it's been bananas, Chad. Thanks for having me, Simon,

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Speaker 5: thanks for having me. It's a pleasure to be here.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 5: You know when we talked a couple months ago, and

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Speaker 5: we talked about this book and the research and the

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Speaker 5: writing of it, and when you live in Pete Rose's

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Speaker 5: universe as I now do. Just by accident. It's a

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Speaker 5: weird place, and it's a place where chain reactions happen,

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Speaker 5: and one person calls another, who calls another, who calls another,

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Speaker 5: and I'm now in that place, and you know, the

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Speaker 5: show Hey Astani stuff has has set off its own

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Speaker 5: chain reaction in Pete Rose's world. You know, last week

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Speaker 5: when the news broke, I was shocked, just like you

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Speaker 5: guys and everybody else because it was surrounding sho Hei

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Speaker 5: o Tani, the golden God of baseball. But I wasn't,

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Speaker 5: honestly that surprised that it was happening in general. You know,

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Speaker 5: in my book, some of the men who chase Pete

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Speaker 5: Rose in the nineteen eighties, the investigators, you know, predict

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Speaker 5: that it's only a matter of time before another player

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Speaker 5: gets himself in trouble again, and immediately, you know, the

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Speaker 5: chain reaction happened. And most people now, you know, your

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Speaker 5: listeners and viewers have seen Pete Rose's viral video, you

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Speaker 5: know where he jokingly said, you know, I wish I

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Speaker 5: had had an interpreter in the nineteen seventies and eighties.

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Speaker 5: I was walking uptown to my very first book events

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Speaker 5: on Tuesday night this week, I'm on the Upper West Side. I'm,

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Speaker 5: you know, in a panicked rush to get there, feeling

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Speaker 5: all the pressure of releasing the book, et cetera, et cetera.

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Speaker 5: And I get a text, and the text is from

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Speaker 5: Tommy Giosa. And Tommy Giosa was one of the guys

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Speaker 5: in Pete's in her circle in the nineteen seventies and eighties.

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Speaker 5: I interviewed him for about fourteen hours, and Tommy placed

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Speaker 5: Pete's bets on sports with bookies. He paid his debts,

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Speaker 5: you know, he walked around town with a satchel full

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Speaker 5: of cash, and ultimately Tommy Giosa is placing petez bets

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Speaker 5: on baseball. So Tommy texts me and he says, have

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Speaker 5: you seen the video? I said, of course, yeah, I

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Speaker 5: saw the video, and Tommy wrote, lol. I guess he

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Speaker 5: forgot that I was his interpreter in the nineteen seventies

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Speaker 5: and eighties. And it's true, right, I mean, Heete didn't

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Speaker 5: have an interpreter obviously, but he very rarely placed his

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Speaker 5: own bets. He had guys doing it. And I'm not

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Speaker 5: here to suggest you know that this is what's happened

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Speaker 5: in the Dodger locker room, but you know, it's it's

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Speaker 5: just something that happened in Pete's world, and who knows

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Speaker 5: what has happened.

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Speaker 1: Here Simon, what is your take on that as a

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Speaker 1: guy who is intimately familiar with operationally how these things work,

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Speaker 1: what he's saying about the opportunities, I'll.

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Speaker 4: Say I have about ten interpreters working for me as well,

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Speaker 4: so I totally get where they're coming from.

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Speaker 3: Both guys.

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Speaker 4: It's just not pro athletes that have interpreters working for

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Speaker 4: them and running bets either. So yeah, I love that

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Speaker 4: little parallel right there.

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Speaker 1: So, Keith, this has been a crazy week because of

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Speaker 1: the Otani stuff. What are some of the parallels you

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Speaker 1: are saying between the Otana story Otani story and the

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Speaker 1: Pete Rose story.

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Speaker 5: Well, obviously, the one difference, just to get it away

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Speaker 5: off the top is, you know, at the moment, there

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Speaker 5: are no allegations that Otani bet on baseball or that

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Speaker 5: his interpreter bet on baseball. It's a big difference for

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Speaker 5: all the reasons everybody knows that said. I mean, there

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Speaker 5: are some stunning parallels. You know, it was you know,

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Speaker 5: Pete Rose's inner circle who was placing bets. You know,

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Speaker 5: it wasn't very often Pete on only a handful of

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Speaker 5: occasions did he ever personally interact with a bookie. You know,

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Speaker 5: it was Tommy Giosa place in the bed. It was

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Speaker 5: Paul Janssen placed in the bet, Mike Bertolini placed in

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Speaker 5: the bed. All three of those men I spoke to.

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Speaker 5: So that's one two. You know, just as it's happening

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Speaker 5: in LA right now, it was a federal investigation by

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Speaker 5: federal investigators, specifically, in Pete Rose's case, the FBI in

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Speaker 5: Cincinnati who began and investigating shady activities in the underworld.

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Speaker 5: And it was originally the Tommy Geosa's, the men in

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Speaker 5: Pete's inner circle who pop up onto the radar of

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Speaker 5: federal investigators. It's not Pete Rose. It's only months in

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Speaker 5: that they realize interesting, these men are connected to Pete Rose.

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Speaker 5: And then I guess the third thing is, you know,

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Speaker 5: just as happened last week, it's the press, who you

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Speaker 5: know holds baseball's feet to the fire. You know, in

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Speaker 5: nineteen eighty nine, it was Sports Illustrated who begins to

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Speaker 5: dig into a tip about Pete Rose is gambling on baseball,

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Speaker 5: and that tip which floats across town to the offices

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Speaker 5: of Major League Baseball on Park Avenue, makes them realize

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Speaker 5: they can't sit around. They got to take action. They

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Speaker 5: got to call Pete Rose, they got to have a meeting. Initially,

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Speaker 5: that's a secret meeting, you know. In this case, you know,

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Speaker 5: it's the La Times, it's ESPN digging into a story

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Speaker 5: that explodes onto the sports landscape. And just like with

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Speaker 5: this one right now, the p Rose scandal, you know,

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Speaker 5: blew up just you know, right before opening day, and

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Speaker 5: that scandal in nineteen eighty nine for those who didn't

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Speaker 5: live through it or for those who have forgotten, I mean,

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Speaker 5: it swallowed the season, It consumed it. And you know,

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Speaker 5: I don't know what's going to happen next. I think

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Speaker 5: anyone who says they know what's going to happen next

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Speaker 5: with the Shahani sho Heyo Tani story is just wildly speculating.

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Speaker 5: But if they're going to do a serious investigation at

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Speaker 5: Major League Baseball, it's going to have to take weeks,

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Speaker 5: it might take months, and they might not even be

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Speaker 5: on their own timeline because again, there's a federal probe

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Speaker 5: happening in southern California, So who knows when this ends?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and just to piggyback and close loop on it.

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Speaker 4: I do appreciate yes Men's reporting on it. I thought

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Speaker 4: they'd be too close to it and the fact that

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Speaker 4: they put out there. I think just on Tuesday, right Chad,

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Speaker 4: that Otani's representation has not said they've pressed any type

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Speaker 4: of charges yet again against some of that apparently stole

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Speaker 4: four point five million dollars interesting nonevertheless, so it is

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Speaker 4: let me I.

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Speaker 1: Know, Simon, I know you want to gentleman with a question,

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Speaker 1: but let me just close the loop on this. It

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Speaker 1: will be very interesting, Keith, and I love your opinion

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Speaker 1: on this. I do wonder, you know, Otani came out

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Speaker 1: had his press conference the other day, said he was shocked,

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Speaker 1: said he didn't bet on baseball, said he didn't make

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Speaker 1: any bets at all.

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Speaker 2: I do wonder, and I hope.

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Speaker 1: Are people still digging around and or will you know

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Speaker 1: the the media landscape has changed quite a bit.

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Speaker 2: I think there was what SI did, how dogged they were.

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Speaker 2: That was a different time.

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Speaker 1: And will people just sort of accept oton these word

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Speaker 1: for it? Will they continue to dig around? None of

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Speaker 1: us have that answer, but Keith, I'm curious to sort

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Speaker 1: of get your take on. Do you see such a

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Speaker 1: massive difference in how investigations and how leagues are covered

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Speaker 1: from then to now that you think the rest of

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Speaker 1: this will be uncovered by the FEDS in Major League Baseball?

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Speaker 1: Or will media continue to play a role.

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Speaker 5: I wrote a story for The Atlantic about a month ago,

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Speaker 5: right when those sweeping layoffs took place at what is

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Speaker 5: left of Sports Illustrated, the shell of Sports Illustrated, And

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Speaker 5: you know, the whole premise of the article was that,

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Speaker 5: you know, we're losing sports journalism, real on the ground

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Speaker 5: sports journalism, and just from an objective standpoint, there are

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Speaker 5: just fewer and fewer reporters on the beat. There are

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Speaker 5: fewer and fewer reporters in the locker room. And you know,

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Speaker 5: as all of us know, it's harder and harder to

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Speaker 5: get access to these guys, you know, in the way

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Speaker 5: that report once had, let's say, back in nineteen eighty nine.

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Speaker 5: So I do think it will be a challenge. That said,

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Speaker 5: I would be incredibly disappointed as a journalist if the

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Speaker 5: Los Angeles Times, at a minimum hasn't peeled off four

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Speaker 5: or six reporters and put them strictly on the show.

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Speaker 5: Heyo Tani story because.

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Speaker 3: You get this chat.

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Speaker 5: I mean, this is this is for some reporter, whether

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Speaker 5: they're at ESPN or some other outlets or the Los

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Speaker 5: Angeles Times, this is potentially that story of a lifetime.

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Speaker 5: And you know, I know there's been a gutting of

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Speaker 5: the media workforce, but there are still reporters out there

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Speaker 5: who want that story. And I gotta believe right now

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Speaker 5: that there are teams of reporters chasing down the story

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Speaker 5: of what really happened, and at a minimum, I would

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Speaker 5: expect within days some big blowout article about the alleged

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Speaker 5: illegal bookmaker himself.

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Speaker 1: Shout out by the way to be dogged Matt Ribletowski

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Speaker 1: of Sports Handle and Action, who broke a story last

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Speaker 1: week that the FEDS had been investigating the guys connected

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Speaker 1: to the bookmakers, connected to Otani's interpreter for five years.

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Speaker 1: Like these guys have known about him for a long time.

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Speaker 1: So you know, I know at least one guy who's

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Speaker 1: on the case. Simon, you wanted to dig in a

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Speaker 1: little bit more, Yeah, just.

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Speaker 3: To throw it back the Pete Rose story.

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Speaker 4: You know, there's so much that goes on in my

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Speaker 4: life where I think of the people that are in

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Speaker 4: my life and you know, everyone's got to sign non

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Speaker 4: disclosures nowadays. It's just part of the business I'm in

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Speaker 4: everyone I work with. This was not the way it

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Speaker 4: was in the seventies eighties when Pete Rose running around.

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Speaker 4: So I would love to know why his guys, his dogs,

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Speaker 4: his friends, people he took really good care of, are

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Speaker 4: now happily to speak to for fourteen hours and spill

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Speaker 4: the beans on this guy's life. Did he burn that

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Speaker 4: many bridges? And just what's the whole thing behind that?

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Speaker 4: Why all of his runners have now kind of turned

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Speaker 4: on him all these years later.

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Speaker 5: You know, there's two answers to that. The first is,

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Speaker 5: you know, I did get access to Pete Rose for

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Speaker 5: the book. I was able to do twenty seven hours

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Speaker 5: of recorded interviews with Pete which is meaningful for all

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Speaker 5: the reasons everybody knows, but also meaningful because you know,

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Speaker 5: Pete had never before spoken to an author writing a

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Speaker 5: book unless he had some sort of editorial control of

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Speaker 5: the book, which he did not have here. And that

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Speaker 5: might be why Pete Rose has stopped calling me back

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Speaker 5: many many months ago. But in the time that I was,

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Speaker 5: you know, with Pete Rose and had access to him,

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Speaker 5: he did help open doors for me. I mean, it

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Speaker 5: was Pete who introduced me to Tommy Giosa, and Tommy

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Speaker 5: and Pete are still close today. But you know, Tommy

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Speaker 5: is his own man. He's in his sixties now. This

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Speaker 5: is a scandal that in many ways defined and destroyed

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Speaker 5: Tommy's life, even though he has completely rebuilt it. And so,

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Speaker 5: you know, as much as this is my book, Charlie

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Speaker 5: Hustle is the story about Pete Rose, it's also about

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Speaker 5: the characters who were in his orbit. And one thing

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Speaker 5: that I found time and again is that if you

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Speaker 5: happened to pass through Pete Rose's universe in the nineteen sixties,

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Speaker 5: seventies and eighties, you often got sucked in by his

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Speaker 5: gravitational pool. And it happened to guys like Tommy Giosa,

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Speaker 5: you know, young admirers who just wanted to hang out

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Speaker 5: with Pete Rose, and then once they were in his

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Speaker 5: inner circle, could not believe that they were hanging out

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Speaker 5: with Pete Rose, and they would happily do anything. But

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Speaker 5: it also happened to you know, important men in their

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Speaker 5: own right, like say Bargie Imadi, the former commission or

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Speaker 5: a baseball you know, Barchie and Matty is an incredible man.

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Speaker 5: But you could write an entire book about BARCHIEA Matti,

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Speaker 5: and yet BARTIEA Matti's life and career is forever entangled

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Speaker 5: with Pete Rose's life. So, you know, Tommy spoke to

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Speaker 5: me initially because Pete gave you know, I Pete gave

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Speaker 5: gave him my number, but he kept talking to me

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Speaker 5: even after Pete stopped. And others, you know, others in

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Speaker 5: his inner circle, you know, have had a long beef

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Speaker 5: with Pete Rose. Because when things fall apart in nineteen

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Speaker 5: eighty nine, it is for the classic gambling reasons, Simon,

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Speaker 5: and I know you will appreciate this. It falls apart

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Speaker 5: over money.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 5: Again, not only were there no non disclosures that were

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Speaker 5: being signed back then, there was some pretty disorganized book

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Speaker 5: making and tabulating that was happening. And ultimately there is

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Speaker 5: a disagreement over a sum of forty four thousand dollars.

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Speaker 5: You know, one of the men in Pete's inner circle

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Speaker 5: says he's paid off a bookie to the tune of

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Speaker 5: forty four thousand dollars, and Pete either disagrees with that

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Speaker 5: sum or disagrees with the fact that he paid it

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Speaker 5: at all. You know, one thing that Pete Rose did

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Speaker 5: a lot of was just let his debts ride. And

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Speaker 5: because he was Pete Rose, you know, bookies let it

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Speaker 5: happen in a way that they wouldn't say for you

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Speaker 5: or me or you know, some other guy in Cincinnati.

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Speaker 5: They let it ride for Pete. And but when Paul Jansen,

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Speaker 5: another man in his inner circle, pays off that debt,

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Speaker 5: Paul wants his money back and Pete won't pay him,

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Speaker 5: and they never agree on that sum, and it implodes

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Speaker 5: from there.

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Speaker 1: In your frame, how big of a deal Pete Rose

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Speaker 1: was in the seventies and eighties, because you know, before

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Speaker 1: we come on the show, Simon is talking about Pete

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Speaker 1: Rose as a Philly. Simon's a baby, right, He didn't

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Speaker 1: see Pete Rose play for the Phillies. Everybody knows the

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Speaker 1: legend of Pete Rose Hitking band from baseball, But can

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Speaker 1: you put in context what a big deal he was.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, Well, the first thing I would say is he's

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Speaker 5: bigger than SHOEO Tani right now. And that's a crazy

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Speaker 5: thing to say, because shoe A. Tani is the most recognizable,

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Speaker 5: most famous baseball player in the world. But because the

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Speaker 5: media landscape was more centralized in the nineteen sixties, seventies

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Speaker 5: and eighties. We all saw the same world through the

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Speaker 5: same prism, and so when you were famous in the

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Speaker 5: seventies or eighties, your fame was automatically larger. And so

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Speaker 5: Pete Rose was one of the most iconic Americans in

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Speaker 5: the nineteen seventies and eighties.

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Speaker 2: You know, and.

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Speaker 5: He was beloved not because of his Rookie of the

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Speaker 5: Year award, or his multiple batting titles, or his multiple

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Speaker 5: World Series titles, his MVP, or even his all time

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Speaker 5: hit record. You know, all of those things were great,

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Speaker 5: of course, and amplified his fame again and again and again.

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Speaker 5: But even if he had only some of that, he

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Speaker 5: would have still been beloved because people loved him for

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Speaker 5: how he played. You know, he, as the title of

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Speaker 5: the book suggests, you know, he hustled, and that hustle

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Speaker 5: was real. You know, he knew from a young age

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Speaker 5: on the West side of Cincinnati, where he was raised,

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Speaker 5: that he had to work hard to make it. Because

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Speaker 5: Pete Rose was never the best player on his childhood

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Speaker 5: baseball teams. He was never the best player on his

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Speaker 5: high school baseball team. He probably never should have gotten

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Speaker 5: a shot at the minor leagues. Today, he wouldn't get

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Speaker 5: a shot at the minor leagues because the minor leagues

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Speaker 5: are smaller. He played initially in the minor leagues in

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Speaker 5: a rung that doesn't even exist anymore. So you know,

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Speaker 5: he gets this shot because he's working hard, he's hustling.

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Speaker 5: He makes that clear on the field. You know, this

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Speaker 5: was a man who sprinted to first on walks, who

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Speaker 5: would get into fights at second base breaking up double plays,

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Speaker 5: and who once, as many of us will remember, you know,

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Speaker 5: broke a man's shoulder slamming into the catcher at home

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Speaker 5: plate in a mid season, meaningless exhibition All Star game.

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Speaker 5: And so we love him, America does because he hustles,

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Speaker 5: and because he reminds us of that great American story,

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Speaker 5: right the one that we all still even believe today.

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Speaker 5: You know that if you work hard, if you try hard,

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Speaker 5: if you dedicate yourself, if you hustle, you can make it.

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Speaker 5: And so we love that story. There is a real

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Speaker 5: element to it. But then the press, you know, amplifies

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Speaker 5: this story and really guilds the mythology of Pete Rose,

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Speaker 5: you know, making him like a god in America by

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Speaker 5: the late nineteen seventies.

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Speaker 2: Also, baseball was bigger. They were winning a lot of

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Speaker 2: World series.

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Speaker 1: That team was legendary as a dynasty, the Big Red Machine,

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Speaker 1: the Reds in the seventies, and the ability to see

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Speaker 1: this team was so scarce. If you were a fan

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Speaker 1: of baseball, but you lived in Texas, maybe you're getting

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Speaker 1: him once a week on television, right, And so you know,

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Speaker 1: athletes today imminately more knowable, a lot less successible, and

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Speaker 1: Pete Rose was the opposite of that, because there was

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Speaker 1: an ability for the media to get to him and

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Speaker 1: project what he was and create, like you said in mythology,

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Speaker 1: but that also meant he was getting away with a

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Speaker 1: lot of shit.

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Speaker 5: And so.

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Speaker 1: You wrote this week on Actionnetwork dot Com that people

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Speaker 1: were aware of and looking into his betting habits as

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Speaker 1: far back as the mid seventies.

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Speaker 2: Explain what your book uncovered.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, So one thing I really wanted to do was

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Speaker 5: go back and remind readers who Pete Rose was. So

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Speaker 5: we're going to talk about the glory, We're gonna talk

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Speaker 5: about the Big Red Machine years, We're gonna we're gonna repaint,

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Speaker 5: you know, the story of the nineteen seventy five World Series,

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Speaker 5: you know, in graphic detail, because all of that is

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Speaker 5: important because we don't care about Pete Rose's fall if

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Speaker 5: we don't remember why we cared about him in the

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Speaker 5: first place. And the other thing I was doing, especially

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Speaker 5: in my interviews with Pete, you know, we would talk

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Speaker 5: about the nineteen seventy five World Series or you know,

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Speaker 5: the nineteen seventy All Star Game when he slammed into

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Speaker 5: Ray Fosse the catcher at home plate. But we also

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Speaker 5: need to talk about the gambling. And one thing I

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Speaker 5: wanted to do was figure out when it started and

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Speaker 5: how it unraveled, because it clearly does. And so you know,

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Speaker 5: my reporting shows and not just based on interviews with Pete,

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Speaker 5: but then interviews with many other people and also court documents.

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Speaker 5: Pete Rose is gambling with bookies. Begins at least by

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Speaker 5: the early nineteen seventies. This is before he's ever won

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Speaker 5: an MVP or a World Series, and he's betting with

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Speaker 5: a bookie on the West side of Cincinnati, almost like

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Speaker 5: a pal, right. And you know, if you were alive

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Speaker 5: in the seventies and eighties, people have those kind of bookies,

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Speaker 5: the neighborhood guy, and that was who Pete was betting

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Speaker 5: with for a while, but by the mid nineteen seventies

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Speaker 5: there are concerns again based on my reporting in nineteen

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Speaker 5: seventy five, during that epic World Series between the Red

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Speaker 5: Sox and the Reds, Johnny Bench, future Hall of Famer,

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Speaker 5: Pete Rose's teammate, approaches an NBC broadcaster on the field

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Speaker 5: at Fenway. Acording to the memory of that broadcaster, his

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Speaker 5: name was Kurt Gowdy. Goudy said that Bench was worried.

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Speaker 5: That Bench was worried because Rose was hanging out with

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Speaker 5: quote bad guys. And I don't know exactly who those

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Speaker 5: bad guys were, but what I can tell you is

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Speaker 5: in nineteen seventy five, during that World series, there was

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Speaker 5: a man who had access to the Reds locker room,

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Speaker 5: and in fact was in the Red's locker room. His

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Speaker 5: name was Mario Nunez. He was known as quote the Cuban,

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Speaker 5: and he was a well connected man in the Tampa

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Speaker 5: gambling circles. Mario Nunez worked as the major d at

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Speaker 5: Tampa Downs, the horse track there and he was p

432
00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:48,800
Speaker 5: Rose's good pal. And you know who else liked the Cuban?

433
00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:52,600
Speaker 5: Sparky Anderson, future Hall of Famer, the manager of the Reds,

434
00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:57,200
Speaker 5: Sparky thought that October and actually told the press that

435
00:25:57,320 --> 00:26:01,119
Speaker 5: the Cuban was their good luck charm. Guy's in the clubhouse.

436
00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:05,160
Speaker 5: Who knows why. And by nineteen seventy eight, again based

437
00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:08,919
Speaker 5: on my reporting, there is a meeting that happens at

438
00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:13,240
Speaker 5: Riverfront Stadium before a game in the office of Red's

439
00:26:13,320 --> 00:26:16,680
Speaker 5: president Dick Wagner. Now, Dick Wagner was not a fan

440
00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:19,760
Speaker 5: of Pete Rose. He had just taken over as president

441
00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:22,680
Speaker 5: after you know, serving his VP there for many years.

442
00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:26,800
Speaker 5: Dick Wagner was sort of a puritanical, militant guy. Pete

443
00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:30,560
Speaker 5: Rose was not his flavor of ice cream. But this

444
00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:35,160
Speaker 5: meeting is not about a personal beef. It's about concerns

445
00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:39,080
Speaker 5: over his gambling. And it's not just Dick Wagner who

446
00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:42,800
Speaker 5: is reportedly in this meeting. It's at least one official

447
00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:47,080
Speaker 5: from Major League Baseball, the director of security for Major

448
00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:51,040
Speaker 5: League Baseball. And this is eleven years before the public,

449
00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:54,560
Speaker 5: you know, will ever really become aware that p Rose

450
00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:56,720
Speaker 5: frankly has a gambling problem.

451
00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:02,720
Speaker 1: Simon, can you name the fastest growing ticketing app in

452
00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:03,760
Speaker 1: the United States?

453
00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:05,160
Speaker 2: Game Time?

454
00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:07,800
Speaker 1: That's right, It's game Time. I love game Time for

455
00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:10,760
Speaker 1: two reasons. First, they still sponsor this show. Second, I

456
00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:13,600
Speaker 1: actually use game Time all the time. They have amazing

457
00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:17,800
Speaker 1: last minute deals, including pro and college sports, speaking of which,

458
00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:21,760
Speaker 1: I'm opening game Time right now from my house here

459
00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:27,040
Speaker 1: in Connecticut. Oh boy, opening day City Field, New York

460
00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:28,359
Speaker 1: Mets fifty.

461
00:27:28,119 --> 00:27:29,040
Speaker 2: Bucks or less.

462
00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:32,400
Speaker 1: No matter where you live, download the game Time app,

463
00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:34,600
Speaker 1: get out and have some fun this week.

464
00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:35,440
Speaker 2: You deserve it.

465
00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:37,919
Speaker 1: You can redeem code favorites for twenty dollars off your

466
00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:40,719
Speaker 1: first purchased terms apply again. Just download the game Time

467
00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:43,800
Speaker 1: app and use code Favorites for twenty dollars off your

468
00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:48,159
Speaker 1: first purchased last minute tickets, lowest prices guaranteed.

469
00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:51,280
Speaker 3: I got so much to ask, so many questions.

470
00:27:51,359 --> 00:27:53,520
Speaker 4: But it was such a different area, obviously, someone that

471
00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:55,520
Speaker 4: didn't live in that era with the joke all the

472
00:27:55,560 --> 00:27:56,000
Speaker 4: time as the.

473
00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:58,480
Speaker 3: Seventies you could be ugly but be sexy. That was Pete.

474
00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:01,520
Speaker 3: Pete was the guy. He had the look.

475
00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:04,399
Speaker 4: The name Pete Rose is just amazing name. It's just

476
00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:07,040
Speaker 4: like George Best. He's a British soccer player. Just that's

477
00:28:07,040 --> 00:28:08,920
Speaker 4: an incredible name. They live up to those kind of names,

478
00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:11,359
Speaker 4: so even you were calling the book Charlie hustle. I

479
00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:13,320
Speaker 4: love because what was it Whitey Ford who called him

480
00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:16,879
Speaker 4: that when he ran down hustling out a walk to

481
00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:17,600
Speaker 4: first base?

482
00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:19,399
Speaker 3: Where people love Pete?

483
00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:22,879
Speaker 4: And I think the difference now again, my generation is softer.

484
00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:26,240
Speaker 4: Millennials are definitely softer, but I think we think more

485
00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:28,960
Speaker 4: about the sickness and that's what Pete had. Pete, like,

486
00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:31,879
Speaker 4: we're all of us on here are pretty normal people, right.

487
00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:33,840
Speaker 4: We all might have some type of addiction to things.

488
00:28:34,240 --> 00:28:36,760
Speaker 4: You know, Chad likes to eat good nuts and eat

489
00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:39,600
Speaker 4: olive oil. That's his addiction. That's a good addiction to have.

490
00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:44,600
Speaker 4: Pete was chasing something he could never catch. And I

491
00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:48,239
Speaker 4: think the Philadelphia area where we talk about Pete, our

492
00:28:48,280 --> 00:28:50,760
Speaker 4: whole thing is it fell at the MLB enabled it.

493
00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:53,160
Speaker 4: Why did they let him keep coaching when they knew

494
00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:54,880
Speaker 4: he had this problem? Why did they keep him in

495
00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:57,240
Speaker 4: the sport? And I would love to ask someone like

496
00:28:57,280 --> 00:29:01,040
Speaker 4: you were so close to it. Emi takes no ownership

497
00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:02,840
Speaker 4: for this. They put it all into Pete where it

498
00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:05,480
Speaker 4: felt like they were the enabler in so many different ways.

499
00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:07,520
Speaker 4: And I know it's a different time, but I would

500
00:29:07,520 --> 00:29:10,120
Speaker 4: love to know what you think about that where the

501
00:29:10,280 --> 00:29:12,040
Speaker 4: MLB in what way did they try to help Pete

502
00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:13,760
Speaker 4: in any way that you looked into it. Did they

503
00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:15,080
Speaker 4: ever try to help them or were they just waiting

504
00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:17,120
Speaker 4: for him to really get caught, to bring their hammer

505
00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:18,560
Speaker 4: down on him and they were just buying their time

506
00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:19,240
Speaker 4: this whole time.

507
00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:22,640
Speaker 5: You know, the details of that nineteen seventy eight meeting

508
00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:28,200
Speaker 5: and whatever investigation happened that spring are are shady, their murky,

509
00:29:28,280 --> 00:29:30,960
Speaker 5: their murky, just like the details around show heo tani

510
00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:36,680
Speaker 5: right now, you know. So I can't say if you know,

511
00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:40,800
Speaker 5: they were really worried or if Pete set there, you know,

512
00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:44,400
Speaker 5: allayed their concerns in the meeting up in Dick Wagner's office.

513
00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:48,280
Speaker 5: I don't know what happened there, you know. You know,

514
00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:52,280
Speaker 5: what I do know is that when they became aware

515
00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:56,240
Speaker 5: of his gambling on baseball, they did act quickly. You know,

516
00:29:56,920 --> 00:30:00,479
Speaker 5: in eighty nine, February eighty nine, just like right now,

517
00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:03,840
Speaker 5: or there were weeks before opening day, you know, major

518
00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:07,080
Speaker 5: League Baseball gets this tip that Sports illustrateds digging in

519
00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:11,600
Speaker 5: to his baseball gambling, and they hold a secret meeting

520
00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:14,800
Speaker 5: and in in in in the in the Office of

521
00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:18,680
Speaker 5: Major League Baseball, and that meeting is attended by Pete Rose,

522
00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:23,640
Speaker 5: Pete Rose's attorneys, UH, the outgoing commissioner Peter Uberroth, the

523
00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:28,560
Speaker 5: incoming commissioner and current National League President Bargiamatti, and and

524
00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:32,680
Speaker 5: by Barciamatti's good friend Fae Vincent, who is the deputy commissioner.

525
00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:36,280
Speaker 5: And you know, I did so much reporting around that meeting,

526
00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:39,040
Speaker 5: because this is another turning point for Pete Rose.

527
00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:39,600
Speaker 3: Uh.

528
00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:42,440
Speaker 5: And in the same way, you know, there are probably

529
00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:46,640
Speaker 5: several turning points happening right now in baseball. And UH,

530
00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:50,960
Speaker 5: based on what I learned. If Pete's honest that day

531
00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:54,000
Speaker 5: when they ask him point blank, have you been betting

532
00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:58,120
Speaker 5: on baseball? The whole narrative is different, The whole the

533
00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:00,680
Speaker 5: whole story is different. And I don't mean to suggest

534
00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:04,680
Speaker 5: that he wouldn't have been punished, or that Major League

535
00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:05,880
Speaker 5: Baseball to bury the story.

536
00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:07,000
Speaker 3: They wouldn't have.

537
00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:09,280
Speaker 5: They would have had to do something in Sports Illustrated

538
00:31:09,360 --> 00:31:12,880
Speaker 5: was coming out with a series of articles. But remember,

539
00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:17,280
Speaker 5: you know, p Rose was good for baseball in nineteen

540
00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:20,080
Speaker 5: eighty nine, in the same way that Shoho Tani is

541
00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:24,760
Speaker 5: good for baseball right now. And so the idea that

542
00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:29,960
Speaker 5: Barchiamadi had some kind of vendetta against p Rose or

543
00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:33,280
Speaker 5: wanted to bring him down is just a false narrative.

544
00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:36,840
Speaker 5: You know, they would have done everything they could to

545
00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:42,280
Speaker 5: save him, to salvage him, and specifically, you know, based

546
00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:46,160
Speaker 5: on my reporting, Peter Uberov, the outgoing commissioner, did not

547
00:31:46,360 --> 00:31:51,120
Speaker 5: want to saddle Barchiamati with this problem. And Uberov had

548
00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:54,600
Speaker 5: navigated some tough situations just a few years earlier, in

549
00:31:54,760 --> 00:31:58,400
Speaker 5: like nineteen eighty three eighty four, there's a huge cocaine

550
00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:02,280
Speaker 5: scandal in baseball, and it snares a lot of guys,

551
00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:08,560
Speaker 5: you know, Dave Parker, Keith Hernandez Yogi, Berra's son Dale,

552
00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:13,479
Speaker 5: big names, and these men are on trial. But they

553
00:32:13,560 --> 00:32:16,800
Speaker 5: have to come and testify at a trial for a

554
00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:22,200
Speaker 5: prominent cocaine dealer in Pittsburgh. And you Wereroth was commissioner,

555
00:32:22,840 --> 00:32:26,440
Speaker 5: and lots of people were calling for suspensions or bands

556
00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:29,280
Speaker 5: because this is another thing that's bad for baseball. But

557
00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:33,760
Speaker 5: you Weroth threads the needle and he realizes that bands

558
00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:36,680
Speaker 5: and suspensions are just gonna make it worse. So he

559
00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:40,400
Speaker 5: lets them testify. He lets it play out, and then

560
00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:45,360
Speaker 5: one by one he gets the men who were implicated

561
00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:49,160
Speaker 5: in the trial, including Hernandez and Parker and others, to

562
00:32:49,400 --> 00:32:54,640
Speaker 5: essentially apologize Maya Kulpa and donate a portion of their

563
00:32:54,760 --> 00:33:00,680
Speaker 5: salary to drug treatment programs, and poof, it's gone again.

564
00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:02,400
Speaker 5: I don't mean to suggest that it would have been

565
00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:07,000
Speaker 5: proof gone with p Rose and gambling, but Peter Ubroroth,

566
00:33:07,120 --> 00:33:10,840
Speaker 5: based on my reporting, wanted a quick solution, something that

567
00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:15,200
Speaker 5: would not saddle Bargiamatti with this, something that would maybe

568
00:33:15,320 --> 00:33:18,719
Speaker 5: salvage the season, and none of that happens.

569
00:33:19,840 --> 00:33:23,280
Speaker 1: Simon, you make a great point about how different generations

570
00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:29,160
Speaker 1: look at this, and in so many ways, gambling is

571
00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:35,840
Speaker 1: an industry that is obviously now legal, more professional, a clean,

572
00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:42,080
Speaker 1: well lighted space that it's existing in. At the same time,

573
00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:45,120
Speaker 1: a guy named the Cuban is hanging out in the

574
00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:48,880
Speaker 1: locker room of the Cincinnati Reds, who are the greatest

575
00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:52,320
Speaker 1: baseball team of the seventies, and not just not only

576
00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:55,479
Speaker 1: is their best player familiar with him and betting with him,

577
00:33:56,160 --> 00:34:01,080
Speaker 1: the manager is referencing him. And it almost seems like

578
00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:07,520
Speaker 1: the transverse because you would never be allowed in a

579
00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:11,960
Speaker 1: locker room and you do this above board in legal states,

580
00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:16,399
Speaker 1: and no one would ever be caught dead saying, oh, yeah,

581
00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:21,080
Speaker 1: my friend Simon Hunter. In the seventies, it was so

582
00:34:21,480 --> 00:34:26,759
Speaker 1: accepted as a regular part of life, and it's fascinating

583
00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:29,120
Speaker 1: to me how different this is right now.

584
00:34:29,200 --> 00:34:30,640
Speaker 2: I don't know if I have a question from that,

585
00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:34,239
Speaker 2: but i'd like both of your perspectives on.

586
00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:40,440
Speaker 1: The way that's changed and how it's completely flipped even

587
00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:41,720
Speaker 1: though now it's a legal industry.

588
00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:43,479
Speaker 2: Keith, I want to hear what you have to say first.

589
00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:50,000
Speaker 5: You make a great point, Chat, I mean, the fact

590
00:34:50,080 --> 00:34:53,040
Speaker 5: that the Cuban was in the locker room. The fact

591
00:34:53,080 --> 00:34:56,720
Speaker 5: that in the nineteen eighties Tommy Gios and Paul Jansen

592
00:34:56,760 --> 00:34:59,759
Speaker 5: would be in the locker room and no one would

593
00:34:59,800 --> 00:35:04,040
Speaker 5: say anything about it, you know, is a world we

594
00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:08,120
Speaker 5: can scarcely imagine today, when reporters can hardly get into

595
00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:12,120
Speaker 5: the locker room, you know, much less you know professional gamblers.

596
00:35:12,160 --> 00:35:15,520
Speaker 5: I mean, Simon, have you ever even tried to have

597
00:35:15,760 --> 00:35:19,560
Speaker 5: that kind of access? Would it even work at all? No?

598
00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:22,239
Speaker 4: I mean Chad talked a little bit the summer again.

599
00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:24,839
Speaker 4: I'm the last person I ever get myself for other

600
00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:27,080
Speaker 4: people in trouble. But we had a couple of NFL

601
00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:30,560
Speaker 4: players get pops for sports betting, and I told Chad,

602
00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:32,919
Speaker 4: people are going to be amazed over the next coming

603
00:35:33,040 --> 00:35:34,759
Speaker 4: years of how many of these stories are going to

604
00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:37,680
Speaker 4: pop up because they just don't understand that this has

605
00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:39,440
Speaker 4: been going on for a long time. But it was

606
00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:42,000
Speaker 4: all in the shadows, like Chad said, now it is

607
00:35:42,040 --> 00:35:45,000
Speaker 4: in the light and they do have all the books

608
00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:48,840
Speaker 4: working together with the government to catch these people. So

609
00:35:49,840 --> 00:35:52,759
Speaker 4: my view it is, you know, I have clients and

610
00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:56,239
Speaker 4: people I work with that are either ex athletes or

611
00:35:56,520 --> 00:35:59,400
Speaker 4: still very friendly with professional athletes playing now who do

612
00:35:59,520 --> 00:36:03,600
Speaker 4: bet like during their off season. So you know, to me,

613
00:36:06,080 --> 00:36:07,720
Speaker 4: we were never were gonna get any bigger than Otani.

614
00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:08,920
Speaker 4: This is as big as it gets.

615
00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:12,520
Speaker 3: Really. I just I can never see Patrick Mahomes getting

616
00:36:12,560 --> 00:36:14,760
Speaker 3: caught in this type of scandal. I really can't.

617
00:36:14,840 --> 00:36:17,719
Speaker 4: Where that's the most amazing part of the Otani part

618
00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:20,920
Speaker 4: of it, where the Pete Rose. I think when you

619
00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:22,960
Speaker 4: think back to that era, it's not as shocking, right,

620
00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:26,320
Speaker 4: things were just different and you know, there wasn't social

621
00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:28,439
Speaker 4: media everywhere, There weren't cell phones everywhere taking a picture

622
00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:30,400
Speaker 4: of it, people everywhere, like you could get away with

623
00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:33,960
Speaker 4: so much more. It's just crazy humans don't change though.

624
00:36:34,080 --> 00:36:36,640
Speaker 4: Even though people know they're gonna get caught, they still

625
00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:39,440
Speaker 4: think they're gonna out thinking. So this is a long

626
00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:43,279
Speaker 4: way of talking. You know, your view of all of this,

627
00:36:43,560 --> 00:36:47,840
Speaker 4: You've dealt with Pete and all these people. Now you know,

628
00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:53,560
Speaker 4: is where he's at today? Like you know this guy

629
00:36:53,560 --> 00:36:55,560
Speaker 4: who Ramley posts video is online right where.

630
00:36:55,600 --> 00:36:57,000
Speaker 3: I don't know where he was at. Was he in Vegas?

631
00:36:57,080 --> 00:36:59,239
Speaker 3: It looked like he was in Vegas. Looked like he

632
00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:00,000
Speaker 3: was in Vegas. Yeah.

633
00:37:01,680 --> 00:37:05,239
Speaker 4: Can you believe that he's carried? Like you just talk

634
00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:06,839
Speaker 4: about the superstar? He's the tiny I of his there

635
00:37:06,840 --> 00:37:10,359
Speaker 4: even bigger. Can you believe we're still obsessed and really

636
00:37:10,440 --> 00:37:14,000
Speaker 4: interested in about him forty years thirty years later? Where

637
00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:17,719
Speaker 4: it's incredible he's hit, that's how impactful he was that

638
00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:20,600
Speaker 4: he has stayed disinteresting. Did you really think you'd be

639
00:37:20,600 --> 00:37:22,239
Speaker 4: writing a book about him in twenty twenty four?

640
00:37:23,200 --> 00:37:27,320
Speaker 5: You know, like probably, Chad. You know, you know, I

641
00:37:27,440 --> 00:37:30,320
Speaker 5: got a list of story ideas that is just always

642
00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:33,240
Speaker 5: going right. And some of those stories are short, short

643
00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:37,400
Speaker 5: form magazine radio story, and some of them are potential

644
00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:40,560
Speaker 5: book ideas. And p Rose had just sort of been

645
00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:43,880
Speaker 5: on that list for me for some time, you know,

646
00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:47,440
Speaker 5: And I think it's not just because of his iconic

647
00:37:47,600 --> 00:37:51,960
Speaker 5: nature that we still care. To me, I think it's

648
00:37:52,080 --> 00:37:55,120
Speaker 5: because of the narrative itself. I mean, it's just got

649
00:37:55,880 --> 00:37:58,239
Speaker 5: all the elements. And i'd be you know, from the

650
00:37:58,400 --> 00:38:00,839
Speaker 5: from the very first days of my reporting on this book,

651
00:38:00,880 --> 00:38:03,640
Speaker 5: which is almost now two and a half three years ago, Wow,

652
00:38:04,960 --> 00:38:07,480
Speaker 5: I wasn't thinking about it as a baseball story. And

653
00:38:07,560 --> 00:38:10,000
Speaker 5: I want to be clear, like, there are there are

654
00:38:10,200 --> 00:38:14,000
Speaker 5: so many baseball scenes in this book, and and entire

655
00:38:14,200 --> 00:38:17,200
Speaker 5: chapters upon chapters, you know, written about baseball, some of

656
00:38:17,239 --> 00:38:21,759
Speaker 5: the most iconic moments in baseball. But to me, this

657
00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:25,920
Speaker 5: was a story about a man, and I began to

658
00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:28,920
Speaker 5: think of him as almost like Icarus, you know, this

659
00:38:29,239 --> 00:38:33,240
Speaker 5: Greek figure. You know, he was Icarus and red stirrup

660
00:38:33,320 --> 00:38:36,360
Speaker 5: socks and black cleats. You know, he was going to

661
00:38:36,520 --> 00:38:39,839
Speaker 5: he was gonna fly, but inevitably he was going to fall.

662
00:38:40,400 --> 00:38:42,080
Speaker 5: And one thing that I just had to do as

663
00:38:42,120 --> 00:38:45,399
Speaker 5: a writer, you know, once I had the reporting, once

664
00:38:45,480 --> 00:38:47,840
Speaker 5: I had the material, is just stay out of my

665
00:38:47,960 --> 00:38:51,080
Speaker 5: own way, you know, let the story carry it, because

666
00:38:51,120 --> 00:38:54,080
Speaker 5: the narrative is just there for you, and you know,

667
00:38:54,800 --> 00:38:57,279
Speaker 5: Chad knows this. Sometimes you got to you got to

668
00:38:57,400 --> 00:38:59,560
Speaker 5: find the narrative, you got to figure out how to

669
00:38:59,640 --> 00:39:02,279
Speaker 5: make it work. In this case, I just had to

670
00:39:02,280 --> 00:39:04,080
Speaker 5: stay out of my own way, because the Pete Rose

671
00:39:04,160 --> 00:39:08,840
Speaker 5: narrative is just the kind of story that humans gravitate to.

672
00:39:10,040 --> 00:39:14,719
Speaker 1: You know, we talk about access in the locker room

673
00:39:15,400 --> 00:39:18,680
Speaker 1: and people like the Cuban. We said in the beginning,

674
00:39:18,800 --> 00:39:22,120
Speaker 1: and we sort of referenced it in a joking way

675
00:39:23,000 --> 00:39:29,560
Speaker 1: that Tommy Gioso was Pete Rose's interpreter. But that's how

676
00:39:29,640 --> 00:39:32,719
Speaker 1: these things happen now right. The interpreter is the one

677
00:39:33,360 --> 00:39:37,800
Speaker 1: who has access. We've stuck out to me is that

678
00:39:38,160 --> 00:39:42,279
Speaker 1: the interpreter is in debt four and a half million

679
00:39:42,360 --> 00:39:48,680
Speaker 1: dollars Simon. How is an interpreter making three hundred grand

680
00:39:48,680 --> 00:39:53,640
Speaker 1: a year getting any kind of credit line that is

681
00:39:54,120 --> 00:39:57,440
Speaker 1: half a mill at a time to make bets.

682
00:40:00,200 --> 00:40:02,160
Speaker 4: I'm not trying to talk out of school and getting trouble, Chad.

683
00:40:02,320 --> 00:40:08,239
Speaker 4: But in the in the bookie world, they might as

684
00:40:08,280 --> 00:40:11,719
Speaker 4: well be federal agents. Everything you think of people, they've

685
00:40:11,840 --> 00:40:14,799
Speaker 4: looked into every little thing, and the biggest thing they're

686
00:40:14,800 --> 00:40:16,560
Speaker 4: looking into all that is because they don't want you

687
00:40:16,640 --> 00:40:20,680
Speaker 4: to pull a runner because that's on them. And yeah,

688
00:40:20,719 --> 00:40:23,279
Speaker 4: the CD underworld is these people are connected to not

689
00:40:24,160 --> 00:40:28,160
Speaker 4: awful people, Like seriously, that I am the very sweet,

690
00:40:28,320 --> 00:40:32,600
Speaker 4: childish face of the underworld, Like my happy, bubbly personality

691
00:40:32,680 --> 00:40:35,319
Speaker 4: is not the eighty percent of the norm of these people.

692
00:40:35,360 --> 00:40:36,920
Speaker 4: These are people you don't want to be in business with.

693
00:40:37,239 --> 00:40:40,000
Speaker 4: So I think that's a little bit with Chad's touching

694
00:40:40,040 --> 00:40:42,719
Speaker 4: on here people is you would not lend out this

695
00:40:42,880 --> 00:40:45,600
Speaker 4: kind of money unless you knew it was backed by

696
00:40:45,680 --> 00:40:49,160
Speaker 4: someone that had the equity for real, because that's that's

697
00:40:49,160 --> 00:40:51,040
Speaker 4: the end of your life, and your life is not

698
00:40:51,120 --> 00:40:52,560
Speaker 4: worth some random guy making a bet.

699
00:40:52,880 --> 00:40:55,520
Speaker 3: He is one of many clients to this bookie.

700
00:40:56,520 --> 00:40:58,719
Speaker 4: He is obviously a bigger fish in the pond, but

701
00:40:59,160 --> 00:41:03,840
Speaker 4: he's not defis So yeah, again, I would love your

702
00:41:03,920 --> 00:41:07,319
Speaker 4: Keith's perspective of this, where like he knows it's all

703
00:41:07,440 --> 00:41:09,800
Speaker 4: these guys running the money around, right the Pete was

704
00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:11,360
Speaker 4: smart enough that he didn't want to be connected to it,

705
00:41:11,480 --> 00:41:12,960
Speaker 4: right where he tried to keep his distance.

706
00:41:13,880 --> 00:41:15,200
Speaker 3: That's just the world they live in, right.

707
00:41:16,000 --> 00:41:19,040
Speaker 5: Yeah, so we are fully waiting into the pool of

708
00:41:19,120 --> 00:41:24,759
Speaker 5: speculation now. But one thing that rings true about What

709
00:41:24,960 --> 00:41:29,640
Speaker 5: you just said is how the bookie, the alleged bookie

710
00:41:29,680 --> 00:41:33,239
Speaker 5: in this case, must have been thinking about his dealings

711
00:41:33,360 --> 00:41:37,759
Speaker 5: with the interpreter. You know in the nineteen eighties. You know,

712
00:41:37,880 --> 00:41:40,000
Speaker 5: p Rose doesn't get in trouble in nineteen eighty nine

713
00:41:40,040 --> 00:41:42,160
Speaker 5: for something he did three weeks earlier, something that Tommy

714
00:41:42,200 --> 00:41:44,640
Speaker 5: Giosa did three weeks earlier. This has been happening for

715
00:41:44,760 --> 00:41:48,400
Speaker 5: three years. It's been bubbling, bubbling, bubbling to the surface.

716
00:41:48,920 --> 00:41:53,680
Speaker 5: And the in that time Window bookies were extending Pete

717
00:41:53,760 --> 00:41:57,200
Speaker 5: Rose a very large credit line, not because they were

718
00:41:57,239 --> 00:42:00,239
Speaker 5: talking to Pete Rose, but because they knew that Paul

719
00:42:00,320 --> 00:42:03,160
Speaker 5: Jansen was sitting in the basement of you know, p

720
00:42:03,360 --> 00:42:08,560
Speaker 5: Rose's house in Indian Hill, Ohio, you know, with with

721
00:42:08,760 --> 00:42:12,600
Speaker 5: the hit king, And they were extending in credit line

722
00:42:12,640 --> 00:42:17,520
Speaker 5: to Tommy Giosa because they knew that Tommy wasn't placing

723
00:42:17,760 --> 00:42:20,720
Speaker 5: a two thousand dollar bet. It was p Rose placing

724
00:42:20,800 --> 00:42:23,560
Speaker 5: a two thousand dollars bet. And I know that not

725
00:42:23,760 --> 00:42:28,040
Speaker 5: because I'm speculating, but because when the investigation happens in

726
00:42:28,120 --> 00:42:32,359
Speaker 5: nineteen eighty nine and one of these bookies does turn

727
00:42:32,520 --> 00:42:37,759
Speaker 5: state's evidence and will happily sit not just for a

728
00:42:37,920 --> 00:42:42,279
Speaker 5: deposition and interviews with law enforcement, but will sit for

729
00:42:42,360 --> 00:42:47,759
Speaker 5: a deposition with Major League Baseball, They ask him, because

730
00:42:47,800 --> 00:42:50,120
Speaker 5: they're now they're now pressing to make sure they have

731
00:42:50,320 --> 00:42:53,719
Speaker 5: the facts. How do you know you know that you

732
00:42:53,880 --> 00:42:56,880
Speaker 5: were dealing with p Rose. Why did you extend, you know,

733
00:42:57,280 --> 00:42:59,720
Speaker 5: such a credit line to a man like Tommy Giosa,

734
00:42:59,760 --> 00:43:02,399
Speaker 5: who was a guy who just worked at a gym,

735
00:43:03,200 --> 00:43:07,440
Speaker 5: and you know, you know the book, he said, clearly,

736
00:43:07,560 --> 00:43:10,800
Speaker 5: again and again. Well, I extended the line and I

737
00:43:11,640 --> 00:43:14,400
Speaker 5: let him carry this debt because everybody knew it was

738
00:43:14,440 --> 00:43:17,720
Speaker 5: Pete Roase behind him. Everybody knew, Yeah.

739
00:43:18,040 --> 00:43:19,879
Speaker 3: People have fish. Know when you have a big fish

740
00:43:19,920 --> 00:43:20,920
Speaker 3: on the line, you don't let it go.

741
00:43:21,320 --> 00:43:21,680
Speaker 1: You can't.

742
00:43:21,800 --> 00:43:25,600
Speaker 5: The other thing, the other thing that is interesting synergy too,

743
00:43:25,800 --> 00:43:28,439
Speaker 5: is I read in the Los Angeles Times, which again

744
00:43:28,600 --> 00:43:30,719
Speaker 5: is doing a great job, in my opinion, reporting this

745
00:43:30,840 --> 00:43:35,320
Speaker 5: story that the alleged bookie in this case was bragging

746
00:43:35,560 --> 00:43:38,200
Speaker 5: to folks in the underworld that he had show Hay,

747
00:43:38,360 --> 00:43:40,719
Speaker 5: or that he was connected to show Hay, which, by

748
00:43:40,840 --> 00:43:44,360
Speaker 5: the way, is the same thing that bookies did in

749
00:43:44,440 --> 00:43:47,520
Speaker 5: the nineteen eighties when they were connected to Pete Roast's

750
00:43:48,040 --> 00:43:50,239
Speaker 5: same unbelievable.

751
00:43:50,440 --> 00:43:54,040
Speaker 4: And you know, just thinking about Pete and the Hall

752
00:43:54,080 --> 00:43:56,440
Speaker 4: of Fame and now that MLB is in bed with

753
00:43:56,600 --> 00:44:00,840
Speaker 4: baseball and the times have changed, I know that they

754
00:44:00,920 --> 00:44:02,480
Speaker 4: do hold a grudge against him. And he has not

755
00:44:02,560 --> 00:44:05,040
Speaker 4: helped himself at all, Right, I mean everything he's done,

756
00:44:05,040 --> 00:44:08,160
Speaker 4: all of his antics the year since, kind of sticking

757
00:44:08,200 --> 00:44:10,000
Speaker 4: his nose out out at it and all of that.

758
00:44:10,760 --> 00:44:12,960
Speaker 3: You know, Pete's not helped himself in any way. Not

759
00:44:13,080 --> 00:44:15,799
Speaker 3: saying he has. We all know there's other.

760
00:44:15,760 --> 00:44:19,839
Speaker 4: Stories about Pete off field. Horrible person, has done horrible things.

761
00:44:20,400 --> 00:44:22,920
Speaker 4: We are talking strictly what Pete did for the game

762
00:44:23,000 --> 00:44:25,800
Speaker 4: of baseball in the seventies and eighties and how impactful

763
00:44:25,840 --> 00:44:28,000
Speaker 4: he was to the sport. It's what I believe he

764
00:44:28,000 --> 00:44:30,400
Speaker 4: should be in the Hall of Fame. He was one

765
00:44:30,440 --> 00:44:34,520
Speaker 4: of the best players at it. He brought an insane

766
00:44:34,560 --> 00:44:36,759
Speaker 4: amount of fans to the sport. No one can deny

767
00:44:36,880 --> 00:44:38,960
Speaker 4: that that he brought fans to the sport because not

768
00:44:39,040 --> 00:44:41,759
Speaker 4: only was he a Hall of Famer for the Cincinnati Cincinnati,

769
00:44:42,200 --> 00:44:44,200
Speaker 4: he came to Philadelphie became a Hall of Famer. Like

770
00:44:44,280 --> 00:44:46,759
Speaker 4: when I think of the Powder Blues, I think of

771
00:44:47,120 --> 00:44:50,200
Speaker 4: Pete Rose and that hair flowing. So your view of

772
00:44:50,239 --> 00:44:53,000
Speaker 4: it someone that's closer than to anyone else. You think

773
00:44:53,040 --> 00:44:54,120
Speaker 4: Pete should be a Hall of Famer.

774
00:44:55,480 --> 00:44:58,920
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's the million dollar question, isn't it? Or, as

775
00:44:59,000 --> 00:45:00,879
Speaker 5: he would say, that's a hunter a million dollar question,

776
00:45:00,960 --> 00:45:03,800
Speaker 5: because that's what he thinks he lost by being banned

777
00:45:03,920 --> 00:45:06,719
Speaker 5: thirty five years ago. You know, I want to be clear,

778
00:45:07,360 --> 00:45:10,839
Speaker 5: you know, my book isn't a book about making an

779
00:45:10,920 --> 00:45:13,640
Speaker 5: argument for p Rose, is not making an argument against

780
00:45:13,719 --> 00:45:17,880
Speaker 5: p Rose. The book is not about opinions. And I

781
00:45:18,000 --> 00:45:20,880
Speaker 5: spend very little time on the Hall of Fame issue.

782
00:45:21,000 --> 00:45:23,160
Speaker 5: It's in the last act of the book. It's in

783
00:45:23,239 --> 00:45:25,360
Speaker 5: the wreckage section of the book, and there is a

784
00:45:25,440 --> 00:45:29,680
Speaker 5: lot of wreckage. But of course, yeah, like you, like

785
00:45:29,800 --> 00:45:32,560
Speaker 5: every sports fan, you know, I've thought a lot about it,

786
00:45:33,400 --> 00:45:35,560
Speaker 5: and I thought a lot too about just how we

787
00:45:35,680 --> 00:45:39,479
Speaker 5: honor athletes in general. And you know, my prevailing thought

788
00:45:39,840 --> 00:45:42,239
Speaker 5: at this point is I just feel like we've really

789
00:45:42,320 --> 00:45:46,480
Speaker 5: lost perspective. You know, we like to put our athletes,

790
00:45:46,680 --> 00:45:50,480
Speaker 5: our famous ones, especially on pedestals, and we like to

791
00:45:50,560 --> 00:45:53,839
Speaker 5: ascribe to them moral values that they may or may

792
00:45:53,920 --> 00:45:56,280
Speaker 5: not have, that they you know, may or may not deserve.

793
00:45:56,880 --> 00:46:01,000
Speaker 5: And the fact is we just don't know that much

794
00:46:01,040 --> 00:46:04,360
Speaker 5: about them, and the show Hay story shows that again.

795
00:46:05,000 --> 00:46:09,800
Speaker 5: You know, again, whether he's whatever has happened here, no

796
00:46:09,920 --> 00:46:13,560
Speaker 5: one would have expected this story ten days ago. Nobody,

797
00:46:14,040 --> 00:46:17,080
Speaker 5: and and and so you know, in my opinion, for

798
00:46:17,239 --> 00:46:21,280
Speaker 5: all of those reasons, I believe that players in general,

799
00:46:21,440 --> 00:46:24,920
Speaker 5: in baseball, in football, and basketball and beyond should be

800
00:46:25,280 --> 00:46:29,160
Speaker 5: honored or enshrined into the Hall of Fame for what

801
00:46:29,320 --> 00:46:32,759
Speaker 5: they did on the field, on the court. And then

802
00:46:32,840 --> 00:46:35,920
Speaker 5: if what they did in the shadows, if what they

803
00:46:36,040 --> 00:46:39,799
Speaker 5: did in their bedrooms, if what they did in their

804
00:46:39,840 --> 00:46:43,799
Speaker 5: personal lives is so bad, so egregious, then I think

805
00:46:43,840 --> 00:46:46,200
Speaker 5: we should put that on the plaque too, and and

806
00:46:46,360 --> 00:46:50,480
Speaker 5: and in you know, uh, put that there for perpetuity,

807
00:46:50,800 --> 00:46:52,320
Speaker 5: right next to their accomplishments.

808
00:46:54,120 --> 00:47:00,440
Speaker 1: Heith, amazing book, Charlie Hustle, The Rise and Fall of

809
00:47:00,600 --> 00:47:05,279
Speaker 1: Pete Rose in the Last Glory Days of Baseball. It's

810
00:47:05,320 --> 00:47:09,759
Speaker 1: gotten great reviews. You have an amazing agent. His name

811
00:47:09,840 --> 00:47:14,880
Speaker 1: is Richard Abatte. Shout out to Richard, really fascinating stuff.

812
00:47:15,960 --> 00:47:17,200
Speaker 1: I'm hoping it's.

813
00:47:17,239 --> 00:47:21,000
Speaker 2: A great success for you after all the hard work.

814
00:47:21,680 --> 00:47:22,040
Speaker 2: Thank you.

815
00:47:22,320 --> 00:47:26,720
Speaker 1: Keith, O'Brien for coming on The Favorites. Catch every episode

816
00:47:27,080 --> 00:47:31,240
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817
00:47:31,239 --> 00:47:33,279
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