Speaker 1: Even though this is not an open championship, it is
Speaker 1: open championship. You can be good enough at golf, even
Speaker 1: without any status on any tour anywhere in the world.
Speaker 1: You can be good enough at golf to play your
Speaker 1: way into this championship. Put another log on the fire
Speaker 1: What are here is get the time? Hello? This is
Speaker 1: Alan ship Nut back for another fire Drill podcast. I
Speaker 1: have a murderers row of a fire pit talent here
Speaker 1: on the line. Michael Bamberger, Ryan Frands Las Versaias gentlemen,
Speaker 1: thank you for being part of this. Thank you guys,
Speaker 1: thanks for having me on, always on it to be
Speaker 1: with you. That's a lie. So um. This is gonna
Speaker 1: be a PG Championship preview from a slightly different point
Speaker 1: of view. You know, Ryan, we want to get any
Speaker 1: thoughts you might have on some of the some of
Speaker 1: the folks in the field who the golf fans don't
Speaker 1: know that much about. You know, there's plenty of talk
Speaker 1: about Scottie Scheffler and John Ram and those homies, But
Speaker 1: are are there some names in this field that that
Speaker 1: jump out at you? Yeah? I mean I always take
Speaker 1: the angle of the of the people who will probably
Speaker 1: never be talked about Allen and probably never going to
Speaker 1: be in contention, although you know all of them. I
Speaker 1: talked to a couple of guys that I'll talk about quickly,
Speaker 1: but um, you know all of them have it's impossible
Speaker 1: to block out that, Like if they have the week
Speaker 1: of their lives, could they be in contention? Right? But Uh,
Speaker 1: talk to Casey Pine last night. Super interesting dude, I
Speaker 1: mean just very eccentric. Uh, really cool. Uh called me
Speaker 1: at eleven thirty last night and I was like, yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm up. Of course I'm up. I've been at the
Speaker 1: course all day. This is great. But an assistant pro
Speaker 1: in Delaware and then in the winter like kind of
Speaker 1: goes and chases his dreams. Got to final stage of
Speaker 1: Asian Q School twice. UM didn't get a full card.
Speaker 1: So because of a financial you know, financial lee that
Speaker 1: doesn't work, hanging out and waiting for Asian tour starts.
Speaker 1: Came back and has done it. But just like one year,
Speaker 1: went to uh an event in Kansas City. His friend
Speaker 1: bailed on a place that he could stay and he
Speaker 1: had bought a twenty four hour UM passed to a
Speaker 1: gym and and just went and slept in the gym
Speaker 1: until he got kicked out of there, and and I
Speaker 1: was like, is that bad? And he's like, this is great.
Speaker 1: I love every part of that. He lived in his
Speaker 1: car for six weeks. Uh read that Hogan drank a
Speaker 1: bunch of caffeine before events, so did that and had
Speaker 1: to shake so bad, you know, couldn't put It's just
Speaker 1: a really weird, eccentric, awesome dude. And uh uh he
Speaker 1: said where do you get I asked him where he
Speaker 1: got it? He said, I've been working on my putting.
Speaker 1: I said where did you Where do you you know?
Speaker 1: Who do you work with? And he said, I worked
Speaker 1: with YouTube. I do a lot of YouTube clips on
Speaker 1: Tiger and so, uh, super good dude. And then Jared Jones.
Speaker 1: You know, I think a lot of people just don't
Speaker 1: realize how hard pro golf is. I mean, Jared Jones
Speaker 1: was like a very decorated amateur player as a junior,
Speaker 1: went to Ohio State for four years. I mean, I
Speaker 1: was on the team and everybody knows that the history
Speaker 1: of Ohio State. I mean, and didn't couldn't cut it,
Speaker 1: you know, couldn't crack an egg at the pro level. Um,
Speaker 1: but has a very interesting he was he caddied for
Speaker 1: Jack Nicholas when Jack did the redesign of the Scarlet
Speaker 1: Course at Ohio State, and uh they had an opening
Speaker 1: ceremonial round and and Jared Um caddy for him. But
Speaker 1: thirty six years old and this is his first, his
Speaker 1: first p J start, and you know, he was just like,
Speaker 1: I'm soaking up everything said yesterday he uh, he ran
Speaker 1: into Uh he was playing with some club pros in
Speaker 1: a practice round. They stopped after nine. He went on
Speaker 1: and met Ricky and Jason Duff and 're on on
Speaker 1: ten and played the back night with him, and he's like,
Speaker 1: you know, I'm I'm a golf nerd. It's the coolest
Speaker 1: thing ever. So uh, you know this will be like
Speaker 1: the pinnacle of most of those guys career. Uh. And
Speaker 1: it's it's just super cool, you know. It's just that's
Speaker 1: kind of the side I obviously focus on. And um,
Speaker 1: it's just a super cool part of golf that is
Speaker 1: not I always say the same thing. It's like, you
Speaker 1: don't get a chance to have a free throw contest,
Speaker 1: to play for the Lakers for a week, and and
Speaker 1: these are just like regular regular Joe's and now they're
Speaker 1: going to play in one of the four biggest tournaments
Speaker 1: in golf. It's just very cool. Yeah, I like that
Speaker 1: for for Michael and Las. I mean, there's there's always
Speaker 1: debate about should they reduce the number of club pros
Speaker 1: or those guys taking the spots of more seasoned touring players,
Speaker 1: But this is the one week all year we really
Speaker 1: celebrate the guys in in the pro shop, right, who
Speaker 1: are are in a huge part of of of the
Speaker 1: sport and they're the ones who cure your slice and
Speaker 1: they get you deal a new driver, and like they're
Speaker 1: they're the lifeblood for a lot of people's golf experience
Speaker 1: and I think it's kind of cool that that we
Speaker 1: give them this this this stage. And you know, with
Speaker 1: with twenty more players from the bottom of the PGA tour,
Speaker 1: you know, if money list make a huge difference in
Speaker 1: this tournament, probably not, but it gives a little a
Speaker 1: little heart and soul to this event. But what does
Speaker 1: your guys take on on where the club pros fit in? Well,
Speaker 1: you know, I think it's to me, it's always interesting
Speaker 1: to see there are so many different classes. I think
Speaker 1: there's twenty four different classifications of PGA professionals, ranging from
Speaker 1: what we think of as being like the director of
Speaker 1: golf or head professional, all the way down through club fitters,
Speaker 1: um you know, merchandizers, teaching professionals. All of those different
Speaker 1: specialties within the profession can qualify UM for PGA membership.
Speaker 1: And it's not often you get like an actual shirt
Speaker 1: folding assistant in the event. A lot of these guys
Speaker 1: spend a lot more time, you know, teaching on the range,
Speaker 1: helping us get better. So maybe not the traditional pro
Speaker 1: that we're thinking of, you know, answering the phone, kind
Speaker 1: of running the tournament, but um, you know this is
Speaker 1: it's also like an homage to the profession, you know,
Speaker 1: to the actual PGA of America, to say, like, you know,
Speaker 1: this is the roots of the professional game in America.
Speaker 1: It's always been kind of a quirky major for me
Speaker 1: at least, but I love to see it. Um you know,
Speaker 1: Illinois coach Mike Small is kind of my favorite of
Speaker 1: the PGA pros that kind of pops in and and
Speaker 1: makes a run at it, So I enjoy it as
Speaker 1: a as a former club pro. For me, it's it's
Speaker 1: fun to see some names pop up that I see
Speaker 1: again and again. UM, and some of them can really play,
Speaker 1: so so it's a real threat to watch it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I would agree with all that. And then to Ryan's
Speaker 1: point when he's citing the names of these players, I've
Speaker 1: never heard of either of those names. Ryan, that that
Speaker 1: you just mentioned. But even though this is not an
Speaker 1: open championship is open championship. You can be good enough
Speaker 1: at golf to even without any status on any tour
Speaker 1: anywhere in the world, you can be good enough at
Speaker 1: golf to play your way into this championship like those
Speaker 1: two guys did. So that's really cool. And Ryan to
Speaker 1: at last year point about about Mike Small and you'll
Speaker 1: all remember this name, but Jim Alvis was a real
Speaker 1: club pro. He ran Piping Rock and he ran a
Speaker 1: golf course at Satan before that, and he qualified I
Speaker 1: don't know the number for numerous PJA championships and turned
Speaker 1: fifty and he quit that and then he was a
Speaker 1: stud on the senior tour. So he was load and
Speaker 1: load and load to a game. Just never had the
Speaker 1: opportunity to play the pH A Tour. But there are
Speaker 1: many different paths, and the four of us would be
Speaker 1: examples of the steward. There are many different paths to
Speaker 1: making this game part of your life, and this week
Speaker 1: does celebrate those guys. And just one of the quick note,
Speaker 1: and this kind of relates to what Phil has been
Speaker 1: talking about of late, this PGA Tour that we're so
Speaker 1: interested and talk about all the time. It's a breakaway
Speaker 1: to her from the PGA of America. And that only
Speaker 1: happened in ye It's not like it's a hundred years ago.
Speaker 1: Um So the historic ties between the PGA Tour and
Speaker 1: PGA of America, that's a very real thing. And for
Speaker 1: this one week to bring the two together is new inappropriate.
Speaker 1: And I'll quickly add there was a great article Allen
Speaker 1: about from Shane Ryan about uh, you know, club pros
Speaker 1: and and it's it's a dying profession. Assistant pros make
Speaker 1: no money and unreal hours and the growth of golf
Speaker 1: and obviously we it's kind of I I kind of
Speaker 1: compared to Twitter. Twitter is great kind of make Uh
Speaker 1: they're probably probably level field. So the article really went
Speaker 1: into the you know that there's a lot of pain
Speaker 1: in the ask members and these these guys are making
Speaker 1: thirty grand a year, thirty five grand a year and
Speaker 1: quitting like crazy. They can't even fill the job. So, um,
Speaker 1: I think it's an important week to to just that
Speaker 1: this profession is not very glamorous at all. A lot
Speaker 1: of these guys are director of golf and director of
Speaker 1: instruction and living a pretty good life. But they all
Speaker 1: most of them lived, you know, an assistant pro and
Speaker 1: some very obscure club that we've never heard of, making
Speaker 1: thirty grand to get where they are. So um, I
Speaker 1: think it's just an important Uh, it was an important
Speaker 1: article to talk about this side of golf. It's a
Speaker 1: it's a dying part of golf. Well, I also, I
Speaker 1: don't know, you know, I think that it used to
Speaker 1: be that you would call the shop to make a
Speaker 1: tea time, and now, as the saying goes, there's an
Speaker 1: app for that. It used to be that if you
Speaker 1: had a snap hook that you needed cured, you'd go
Speaker 1: get a lesson at the club. Now there's an app
Speaker 1: for that. So the profession itself is is going the
Speaker 1: way of the travel agent. You know, it used to
Speaker 1: be that people actually bought clubs from the professional who
Speaker 1: often own the shop. But the second they could save
Speaker 1: nineteen on a five dollar set of irons, they would
Speaker 1: do that. So, you know, people have not supported their
Speaker 1: shops and and and their local prosum in in a
Speaker 1: way that you know, maybe the profession needs because of
Speaker 1: competition from big box stores, because of technology. So, um,
Speaker 1: this has been writing on the wall since I worked
Speaker 1: in the back room in Town and Country in nineteen
Speaker 1: ninety when the big you know people would show up
Speaker 1: with boxes and say, hey, you know, here's my here's
Speaker 1: the clubs I just got down the street at Nevada
Speaker 1: Bob's and they would ham them to the pro. Could
Speaker 1: you just throw the box away for me and switch
Speaker 1: them out and maybe take my old clubs and give
Speaker 1: them to a caddy or something. And and the pro
Speaker 1: who owns the shop with these same clubs and stock,
Speaker 1: it's going to have to eat the cost of those
Speaker 1: clubs because no one's going to buy them from him anymore. So, um,
Speaker 1: this this has been coming down the pipeline for a while.
Speaker 1: And when most professions and most careers are threatened like that,
Speaker 1: they will make adjustments to survive and be more relevant.
Speaker 1: So what you saw was the PGA tour starting to
Speaker 1: special Sorry, the PGA of America is starting to specialize
Speaker 1: the profession. So okay, Ryan French, look you're not only
Speaker 1: going to be a pg A professional. You're gonna be
Speaker 1: a PGA professional with with an emphasis on food and
Speaker 1: beverage or with an emphasis on general management. So now
Speaker 1: we're going to put more duties on your shoulders, hence
Speaker 1: more time at the job. More um, more touch places
Speaker 1: in in the clubhouse, whether you know it's it's the
Speaker 1: food or the operations of the ground screw now falls
Speaker 1: on you. So um, it's been coming for a while,
Speaker 1: and and it's it's sad to see that the reaction
Speaker 1: that the p g A had um which was to
Speaker 1: develop this professional golf management program. So now I, as
Speaker 1: a graduating senior in high school, can go to Fair
Speaker 1: Estate or Clemson and do a four year p g
Speaker 1: A program. And here I come out at age two,
Speaker 1: and I they expect me to be a class APGA
Speaker 1: member who can handle the rigors of of a job
Speaker 1: that's not that easy and certainly not that easy for
Speaker 1: two year old kid who very likely you know is
Speaker 1: in it because he loves golf, not necessarily because he
Speaker 1: loves managing people where he understands operational excellence. So you
Speaker 1: kind of make your own bed in this world. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, it's just when I think about the all
Speaker 1: the class A pros out there my three summers and
Speaker 1: as a cartboy at Pebble Beach, I saw this play
Speaker 1: at a few times. You had to pass the player
Speaker 1: ability tests and I can't remember the numbers. I think
Speaker 1: you had to shoot like seventy five or something around there.
Speaker 1: And the stress on these guys. They've done all the
Speaker 1: classroom work, they've got all the qualifications and they have
Speaker 1: to go out and pass this test and it's very unforgiving.
Speaker 1: You know, It's just it's just a number you got
Speaker 1: to shoot and there's no wiggle room. And these were
Speaker 1: good players, but you know, guys would wash out and
Speaker 1: they'd have to wait however many months to try again,
Speaker 1: and it was like it was it was this. It
Speaker 1: was almost kind of cruel because if you can shoot
Speaker 1: seventy seven seventy seven, you're still a good player and
Speaker 1: you can still be a good head pro somewhere. But no,
Speaker 1: you gotta get you gotta hit the number, or that
Speaker 1: doesn't count. And like to me, that was like really
Speaker 1: high stakes golf. And I was sort fascinated, as as
Speaker 1: a teenage I don't really understand how it all work,
Speaker 1: which is the this is like a life changing thing.
Speaker 1: They go out and shoot these numbers, and that's always
Speaker 1: stuck with me. It's so interesting what what what Las
Speaker 1: was saying there, Because of course there's the economics of
Speaker 1: the whole business that Las is addressing, and then there's
Speaker 1: also as he's as he was talking about, I'm thinking
Speaker 1: about the texture of the game has changed a lot
Speaker 1: because you really there are fewer humor interactions with club
Speaker 1: pros because you're doing so much online. And uh, and
Speaker 1: we say that in every walk of life. I mean
Speaker 1: even you know, when you're on the turnpike and you
Speaker 1: go to pay your toll, well you don't talk to
Speaker 1: human being at all. Of course, you just go right
Speaker 1: through the easy pass. Uh. And that has actually affected
Speaker 1: the uh, the texture of the game. Or like when
Speaker 1: Ryan's talking about this, Uh, I think the assistant pro
Speaker 1: from Delaware who's getting his pustle punting lesson not from
Speaker 1: his buddy but from YouTube. And that's none of this
Speaker 1: is helping the game or society, this lack of the
Speaker 1: placky humor interaction. So it's, um, I never thought about
Speaker 1: last what you just said until until just now. But uh,
Speaker 1: you know, part of the texture of Club life, especially
Speaker 1: at a fancy club where even at Immunity was guys
Speaker 1: hanging out and talking. And I don't mean guys anybody,
Speaker 1: you know, kids and whomever. And there's less of that
Speaker 1: now and I don't think society is better for it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's that's well said. UM, I want to switch gears
Speaker 1: a little bit. You know. Um, Michael and I did
Speaker 1: a podcast with Jeff Ogilvie and we really got into
Speaker 1: Southern Hills as a golf course and as a as
Speaker 1: an incredible test and all those things. But uh, I
Speaker 1: wanted to talk a little more big picture here. You know, Michael,
Speaker 1: I have discussed many times like the one of the
Speaker 1: pleasures of this job is that it takes us to
Speaker 1: places we probably wouldn't get to otherwise, and you get
Speaker 1: to explore a place like Tulsa. UM, for Ryan is
Speaker 1: at Midwestern I want you to speak to what it
Speaker 1: means to have, you know, one of these big, huge
Speaker 1: tournaments come to uh, you know, not a booming which
Speaker 1: Propolis and and then Laza's. I know you've been tracking
Speaker 1: this for a while, but you know, Tulsa has its
Speaker 1: own unique history, and UM, if we can get into
Speaker 1: some of that as well as the complexion of the
Speaker 1: city and and some of the some of the darker
Speaker 1: shadows that that are around Tolls through the years, and
Speaker 1: and how maybe this uh Gulf it plays a role
Speaker 1: in all that. But what to start with, Ryan, Like,
Speaker 1: what does it mean to Tulsa when a PG championship
Speaker 1: blows into town? Yeah, I mean I think, Um, you know,
Speaker 1: I called you and I talked on the phone yesterday
Speaker 1: and you flew into Oklahoma City, Like how many majors
Speaker 1: have you had to fly into a different city and
Speaker 1: then drive to Like it just it doesn't happen very often,
Speaker 1: and so it's the only show in town. I mean,
Speaker 1: Bunky Perkins is a great follow and I mean, like
Speaker 1: he was listing places that you would go and hidden
Speaker 1: gems and Tulsa and those kind of things. It's just
Speaker 1: it's pretty I mean, Tulsa is a big city, but
Speaker 1: in the scheme of things, in the scheme of majors,
Speaker 1: it's not very big. And um, it's just cool to
Speaker 1: see a place where it's the only show in town,
Speaker 1: and it's just it's pretty rare. So um. Obviously, Michael's
Speaker 1: article about how we got here and all those kind
Speaker 1: of things is is it great of how we got here,
Speaker 1: but just Tulsa on its own, is it's cool to
Speaker 1: see a Midwestern you know, blue collar ish type city
Speaker 1: have the only show in town. The the LPGA did
Speaker 1: that for years. Uh. It went to places that you know,
Speaker 1: didn't have NBA teams, in Major League Baseball teams and
Speaker 1: uh and it worked. It was the only show in town.
Speaker 1: And it's neat when you know, professional men's majors golf
Speaker 1: doesn't do it very often, although in a sense Augusta
Speaker 1: does it every year. I mean, would we ever go
Speaker 1: to Augusta, Georgia where not for the fact that it
Speaker 1: has the Master's uh no, um and or you know
Speaker 1: Manchester for Ryder Cups. Now, so it is neat how
Speaker 1: golf can be the only show in town and bring
Speaker 1: the whole world um into that town for a week. Yeah, Tulsa,
Speaker 1: you know, has a unique UM. It's curious to me
Speaker 1: that it's it's this is a tough thing to talk about,
Speaker 1: um because I was sitting working on a piece about
Speaker 1: a man named Bill Spiller. So Bill Spiller is largely
Speaker 1: viewed as the the primary man who who who broke
Speaker 1: down the Caucasian only clause He was the person that
Speaker 1: went toe to toe with the As Michael mentioned earlier
Speaker 1: in nineteen sixty one, you know, the PGA Tour and
Speaker 1: the PGA were together, they were one, there were one entity,
Speaker 1: um and they had a Caucasian only claus and Bill
Speaker 1: Spiller was the man that challenged it. Um. He was
Speaker 1: the one that kicked down that door so that so
Speaker 1: that people of color could play on the on the
Speaker 1: p G A tour. Um. He's from Tulsa and from Tulsa,
Speaker 1: I mean you know, he moved there, uh when he
Speaker 1: was eight years old. And this is in nineteen twenty one,
Speaker 1: just after, just after the Tulsa Race Ride massacre. So
Speaker 1: for those that are unfamiliar, um in UM one to
Speaker 1: June one, the you know, black people were killed in
Speaker 1: large numbers. People flew planes and dropped bombs on them
Speaker 1: and destroyed the primary black neighborhood in Tulsa. And it's
Speaker 1: things like that on the shoulders of years of Jim Crow,
Speaker 1: on the shoulders of failed reconstruction, still dealing with the
Speaker 1: residue of slavery. And it's things like this that that
Speaker 1: make people want to leave the South and go to
Speaker 1: places like Chicago and New York and St. Louis, and
Speaker 1: in Bill Spiller's case, he goes to Los Angeles. Um,
Speaker 1: we were lucky enough to get into the California African
Speaker 1: American Museum where they have a they had a collection
Speaker 1: and it was called the African American move West, and
Speaker 1: it kind of brings forth many of these artifacts that
Speaker 1: people had as they as they left the South. So
Speaker 1: we had Bill Spiller's foot locker and his golf bag
Speaker 1: and his son and we we were we were sitting
Speaker 1: and I was taking notes to to talk to him
Speaker 1: about you know, were these were there any stories? Did
Speaker 1: anyone share things with you when you were a kid
Speaker 1: about what it was like? And he said, you know
Speaker 1: how it is. You know that generation didn't share those stories.
Speaker 1: And I thought, you know, what a tragedy because here
Speaker 1: now in Buffalo, we've got another race massacre in a
Speaker 1: grocery store where someone goes in with a gun and
Speaker 1: kills ten black people. So it was really heavy to
Speaker 1: deal with looking at that piece of history and and
Speaker 1: and seeing it kind of repeat itself again in Buffalo,
Speaker 1: New York. Sadly, but I asked him, you know, we
Speaker 1: talked about um, how his father was in the posthumously
Speaker 1: granted membership to the PJ of America, was inducted into
Speaker 1: the Oklahoma Golf Hall of Fame. And he didn't really
Speaker 1: he never played golf when he was in Oklahoma. Ever,
Speaker 1: he started playing golf when he got to Los Angeles
Speaker 1: at age. So it's well, you know, it was just
Speaker 1: kind of a heavy thing to talk about, uh and
Speaker 1: and yeah, but it's it's important, it's important to bring
Speaker 1: this up. Yeah, it's it's important to know that you
Speaker 1: know that these things happened. We'll be I'll be curious
Speaker 1: if if there's any acknowledgment on the telecast, because you know,
Speaker 1: it's a it's a failure of of you know, various
Speaker 1: school systems that I never heard about the Tulsa race
Speaker 1: massacres in school is only in the last fifteen twenty
Speaker 1: years and it even became aware of that such thing
Speaker 1: had happened. And it seems like, you know, we just
Speaker 1: we had to have the Hunter Anniversary last year, and
Speaker 1: it was something that was talked about in a lot
Speaker 1: of different places. And it''s almost like taking a full
Speaker 1: century for for you know, a public awakening and reckoning
Speaker 1: and uh not to say that it's a. The this
Speaker 1: this championship tournament has hasn't anything to do with you know,
Speaker 1: telling that story in a broadway. But when when you
Speaker 1: come into a place like Tulsa, uh in you're you're
Speaker 1: bringing this tournament here, and you're trying to tell tell
Speaker 1: the whole complete story of the venue and the city
Speaker 1: that shaped it, it does seem Germaine. So uh it's
Speaker 1: it's you know, golf. The Bill Spiller connection is really
Speaker 1: interesting because golf has always been slow to acknowledge it's
Speaker 1: it's problems and that the caucasion only clause lasted into
Speaker 1: the nineteen sixties is certainly something that that the PGF
Speaker 1: America has always had to reconcile with. And uh So anyway,
Speaker 1: I'm I can't wait to hear that podcast and when
Speaker 1: when you really bring that story to life last, because
Speaker 1: I I do think it's important when when when you
Speaker 1: when you visit these these cities that have these histories
Speaker 1: that it needs to be told. Yeah, and I'll add
Speaker 1: quickly that m Whyatt Worthington the second is a club
Speaker 1: pro from Ohio who qualified African American, only the second
Speaker 1: African American um to make it to the PGA through
Speaker 1: the PGA Pro Championship qualification process. Yeah, that is awesome
Speaker 1: and and alantier point, you know, will the CBS, Tellegaster
Speaker 1: even or even Golf Channel, you know, these major major
Speaker 1: venues were literally millions of people get introduced to what
Speaker 1: this tournament is about this week? Will there be any
Speaker 1: mentioned in something like Bill Spiller that Tulsa race rights?
Speaker 1: You know, we know historically the answers close to the
Speaker 1: chance of that coast is zero. And it's such a
Speaker 1: shame for golf that it takes us attitude because if
Speaker 1: you look at the greatness of the NBA or the
Speaker 1: greatness of Major League Baseball, the story of cities and
Speaker 1: race relations and economic struggles that is part of the
Speaker 1: fabric of what makes the NBA and the NFL and
Speaker 1: even boxing, to let's degree, the NFL the great stories
Speaker 1: that they are. And I don't know why golf always
Speaker 1: tries to promote itself as it lives in this isolated
Speaker 1: chamber of fairness, when of course it doesn't. And the
Speaker 1: game would be a richer experience for more people if
Speaker 1: we could just talk about it truthfully like we're trying
Speaker 1: to do here. So you know, I hope that they
Speaker 1: do I think that they won't. I think golf would
Speaker 1: be better if, if, if we would do more to this. Yeah,
Speaker 1: this is this is something that we touched on with Ogilvy.
Speaker 1: But when you go to Southern Hills, it's like going
Speaker 1: back in time. I mean, there's there's a there's it's
Speaker 1: a very stately place and it's been that way for
Speaker 1: a really long time, and so, um, you know it's
Speaker 1: role in this city. It's it's been a hub for
Speaker 1: the ruling class of Tulsa for a very long time.
Speaker 1: And so, uh, it seems like it would be an
Speaker 1: appropriate conversation to have, even though it makes some people uncomfortable,
Speaker 1: but that's that's just part of it. I mean, you've,
Speaker 1: you've we have to acknowledge, you know, our history as
Speaker 1: in the game and beyond that. But uh, yeah, I
Speaker 1: think they will touch on it at some point. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And and you know, I'll give kudos to CBS for
Speaker 1: having our friend and and past uh guests on the
Speaker 1: Grassroots podcast, but Roger Steele will be um on site
Speaker 1: doing clubhouse interviews and being on the driving range with
Speaker 1: people as well. So Roger, for those who don't know,
Speaker 1: is one of the kind of leading voices in Black
Speaker 1: Golf today, UM and from Chicago and just really a
Speaker 1: wonderful mind. So I'm glad he'll be featured throughout UM.
Speaker 1: And yeah, it's amazing that Whyatt Worthington this is his
Speaker 1: second time qualifying. Before him he had to go back
Speaker 1: to UM. And that speaks to the structure of the
Speaker 1: PGA of America and where there are not many black
Speaker 1: p g A of America professionals. I mean, one of
Speaker 1: you guys might have the statistics. I know that. Um.
Speaker 1: You know, yesterday Bill Spiller Jr. Quoted the number something like,
Speaker 1: you know, sixty there's only sixty eight members. I think
Speaker 1: there are a couple hundred African American members of the
Speaker 1: PGA of America. But um, you know, the structure of
Speaker 1: being granted that PGA classification is a little dated. You know,
Speaker 1: to your point, Alan, you do have to pass the
Speaker 1: player ability test, which you know you might have to
Speaker 1: take it a couple of times. But um, I feel
Speaker 1: like the p g A could certainly go out to
Speaker 1: some of these courses that serve communities of color and
Speaker 1: they will see that there are people that are largely
Speaker 1: operating in a in a in a professional capacity. And
Speaker 1: they are people that could be given some kind of
Speaker 1: a fast track to PGA membership to to kind of
Speaker 1: get those numbers up to kind of look at a
Speaker 1: way to say like, actually, there are people doing the
Speaker 1: work that's important to our game. How do we meet
Speaker 1: them and say, Okay, yes, you you know. Karen Peak
Speaker 1: is a great example. Karen Peak is a is a
Speaker 1: woman who runs all of Detroit public golf. She graduated
Speaker 1: from the University of Michigan with a degree in history.
Speaker 1: She's fine player, she knows all about the history of
Speaker 1: golf in Detroit. She literally runs operations for three different
Speaker 1: golf courses. She's already an LPGA member, so there is
Speaker 1: a fast track to go from LPGA membership to PGA membership.
Speaker 1: That model of saying like, yes, if you have experience
Speaker 1: in this already, don't worry too much about these three
Speaker 1: levels of of of training that we're gonna put you through.
Speaker 1: Some of them are very archaic. By the way, Um,
Speaker 1: don't worry about flying to Florida three different times. Don't
Speaker 1: worry about buying mountains of books that you're never going
Speaker 1: to use. Once you get past this program, Let's just
Speaker 1: look at your experience and what you do and somehow
Speaker 1: find a way to say, all right, give us your
Speaker 1: body of work, we'll review it and we'll get back
Speaker 1: to you with what we'd like to see for you
Speaker 1: to become a PGA member. Because there are thousands, thousands
Speaker 1: of people who are you know, you've got Steve at
Speaker 1: the range at Rancho. He's given more lessons than every
Speaker 1: kid in the PGM program, which Wyatt Worthington, by the way,
Speaker 1: is an alumnus of of Methodists, where he was in
Speaker 1: the PGM program. But there are people all over our country,
Speaker 1: black people working in golf, passionately dedicated, who who could
Speaker 1: easily easily run clubs and and teaching programs that that
Speaker 1: I think it would behoove the PGA of America to
Speaker 1: find a way to bring those people in, maybe in
Speaker 1: unorthodox manner, but um, it seems like a no brainer
Speaker 1: to me to to reach out and find a way
Speaker 1: to to get those people under the umbrella, so to speak.
Speaker 1: So I just jumping with one quick question because I
Speaker 1: want to correct myself if it's necessary. Less you may
Speaker 1: know the science, certainly don't. Does CBS have something in
Speaker 1: the works, um to really talk about race relations in
Speaker 1: the history of race in Tulsa, so I can't know
Speaker 1: about it. If that's the case, I definitely want to
Speaker 1: correct myself. About six months ago, somebody asked me if
Speaker 1: if if I had any ideas for for them um
Speaker 1: at CBS and so I would expect to have something.
Speaker 1: I mean. My response, well, I hope, I'm let's yeah,
Speaker 1: let's help, let's help. So so we'll see what happens. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and I think last well, I know I heard that
Speaker 1: I a PG official told me. I think there are
Speaker 1: twenty nine thousand members of the PG of America. This
Speaker 1: is it's almost hard to say the number because it
Speaker 1: seems so a bit fewer than two hundred are are
Speaker 1: black or or people of color. Yeah, think about that.
Speaker 1: That's amazing. Yeah, that really is um. All right, well,
Speaker 1: this this is uh, this has become a a non
Speaker 1: golf conversation in a positive way. But let's let's bring
Speaker 1: it back to a little bit. What's gonna happen between
Speaker 1: the ropes. I just before I let you guys go out,
Speaker 1: I want to just get your thoughts, like, what are
Speaker 1: you most excited about for this PGA Championship? Answer that
Speaker 1: anyway you wish the golf course. Watching, you know, watching
Speaker 1: golf on television has gotten so much better over the
Speaker 1: last few years with with with with the different cameras,
Speaker 1: and the Venice cam now provides like this really rich
Speaker 1: depth into the scene. I am a big fan of
Speaker 1: Gill Hands and his work, and I've always been a
Speaker 1: fan of Southern Hills, so I'm excited to see how
Speaker 1: that um kind of the existing land and Gil's artistry
Speaker 1: come together. I think Rory McElroy is going to get
Speaker 1: back in the winner circle. I you know, we'll see, obviously,
Speaker 1: but there's not a course that's too big for him,
Speaker 1: and and it sure seems like he's, you know, he's
Speaker 1: kind of trending in the right direction. So the two
Speaker 1: things I'm most excited for Rory and the golf course.
Speaker 1: I'm most excited for the corn Ferry event. As you
Speaker 1: guys know, uh this majors and top players in the
Speaker 1: world and the rich the richest players getting richer, there's
Speaker 1: not much of an interest to me. Uh. I love
Speaker 1: the fact that there's some club pros. If an obscure
Speaker 1: pro gets in contention or Tiger gets in contention, obviously
Speaker 1: I'll watch. But for the most part, my focus is
Speaker 1: on the obscure parts of golf. So I'll be really
Speaker 1: locked in on the course. What what what corn Ferry
Speaker 1: event are we talking about? Give us set the table, Ryan,
Speaker 1: you've got our attention. Note. Yeah, it's the Advent Health
Speaker 1: and it's quite Uh it's so obscure. A lot of
Speaker 1: guys a skip it. So it's way down the list
Speaker 1: of of the priority list. Were deep in the in
Speaker 1: the corn Ferry list. So, um, you know it's gonna rain.
Speaker 1: It's often. Last year they had to tee off of
Speaker 1: a temporary green, it was underwater. It's it's a semi
Speaker 1: miserable time. Mark Mark called it. Uh you know he
Speaker 1: said he wouldn't go there if there was a fifty
Speaker 1: dollar appearance fee. Uh so Um, not a lot of
Speaker 1: people go. So it often creates obscure winners and you
Speaker 1: know it can kind of change their life. So that's it.
Speaker 1: No idea some some some course in Kansas City. That's
Speaker 1: semi mediocre of I love it, how about you, my
Speaker 1: gol But Ryan Allen and I were with Mac Barnehard
Speaker 1: the other day. Help me out here, babbit wrong. He
Speaker 1: was talking about a tour called the G four Tour.
Speaker 1: I'm saying that correctly to what's that to a what's
Speaker 1: the quality of that tour? Like, yeah, it's pretty good.
Speaker 1: I mean in the miniq tour world and this can
Speaker 1: be its own pod. But the PGA Tours kind of
Speaker 1: ruined mini tour golf Michael when they created the Canadian
Speaker 1: Tour China that's now gone and and let Latino America
Speaker 1: all the guys go there. So they kind of ruined
Speaker 1: guys have the ability to make a living. Uh at
Speaker 1: the developmental tour level. Um, you know, there used to
Speaker 1: be the Hooters Tour and e Golf Tour and guys
Speaker 1: would make you know, hundred fifty two thousand dollars if
Speaker 1: they were leading the money list. Uh. So those are gone.
Speaker 1: The g Pro Tour offers ten to twenty dollars to
Speaker 1: the winner, uh, depending on on the field. And in
Speaker 1: these this day and age, almost unheard of. Michael so
Speaker 1: good reputable. The guys owned it for a long time.
Speaker 1: And as we have learned as we've read about Big
Speaker 1: Money Classic and other tours, he pays people. And that's
Speaker 1: the most important thing that guys just want to get
Speaker 1: a check. Alan the thing to follow up on what
Speaker 1: last was saying, hi to him. I'm drawn to the
Speaker 1: golf course and to watch the golfing intelligence of the
Speaker 1: world's best players rise to the challenge of playing a
Speaker 1: golf course is difficult in Southern Hills. And then to
Speaker 1: go even a little deeper into that, uh, that nook,
Speaker 1: especially pitch shots and greenside shots and bunker shots and
Speaker 1: short putting and lag putting on tricky greens because they're
Speaker 1: all so good. Um uh tita green now. But that's
Speaker 1: is the great equalizer. It is the greatness of a
Speaker 1: golf course like Southern Hills, like Augusta Nationals is pitching
Speaker 1: it and chipping it and lag putting it and short
Speaker 1: putting it and not just doing it on Thursday bright
Speaker 1: through Sunday night. Uh. So that uh, And you don't
Speaker 1: get that weekend and week out on the pH A
Speaker 1: Tour when the conditions are softer and the grass is
Speaker 1: a little longer and it's not as also fine, but
Speaker 1: this won't be like that. And part of that, and
Speaker 1: you really can't say enough about him, is how Carrie
Speaker 1: Haig sets up a golf course is for p ch championships. Um.
Speaker 1: I think he's really almost un heralded. We just hear
Speaker 1: about like Mike Davis had a lot of skill with that.
Speaker 1: But carry Hig does a great job as setting up
Speaker 1: golf courses and I'm sure we'll have a just a
Speaker 1: first rate challenge. Um, but we'll let the cream rights
Speaker 1: to the crop. And to watch really closely what they
Speaker 1: do is the ball. This is true of ever great
Speaker 1: golf course, is that ball gets closer and closer to
Speaker 1: the whole, the golf course actually becomes more and more difficult, yeah,
Speaker 1: and more interesting. And it is going to be a
Speaker 1: different kind of set up with a lot more uh,
Speaker 1: areas for the ball to run to, these collection areas
Speaker 1: and these shaved banks and uh, it's gonna be a
Speaker 1: fascinating week around the greens. And I was out there
Speaker 1: yesterday about seven o'clock when they'll they'll be finishing on Sunday,
Speaker 1: and it was beautiful twilight, and there's just an elegance
Speaker 1: to this golf course and at the way it sits
Speaker 1: in the land and the flowing terrain, it just looked
Speaker 1: absolutely beautiful. And because of the craziness on the same
Speaker 1: a second hole that's all remember about the two thousand
Speaker 1: one US Open, two thousand and seven p GA is
Speaker 1: the hottest tournament any of us have ever covered, and
Speaker 1: that thousand people remember hopefully this is the date change
Speaker 1: and and the redesign like this is the this is
Speaker 1: the tournament where Southern Hills really becomes a superstar in
Speaker 1: people's minds as a venue. So I'm excited about that.
Speaker 1: And also we're in this this moment of great parity
Speaker 1: where there's not a dominant player. There's a lot of
Speaker 1: guys who are They're nibbling around the edges of that,
Speaker 1: but no one has really asserted themselves. And you know,
Speaker 1: if Sheffler to win this, if rom if called Markawa,
Speaker 1: if Rory to were to come through again, like uh,
Speaker 1: I think I think it's always helps drive interest in
Speaker 1: the game when when one player is is really taken
Speaker 1: the sport by the throat. And for sure Shecheffler is
Speaker 1: on a nice heater, but um, this would take him
Speaker 1: to a whole different levels. So I'll be curious if
Speaker 1: someone can can start training in that direction. Well, Scheffler
Speaker 1: is the course record holder here. I know that's that's
Speaker 1: a great little nugget. Just just like Rory was at
Speaker 1: Royal Port Rush. It didn't work out for him there,
Speaker 1: but last, and curious if you ever heard heard this thing?
Speaker 1: This is so old timey. I don't I don't even
Speaker 1: know if you'll you'll have ever heard of it? Have
Speaker 1: you ever heard of a gut? The club pro has
Speaker 1: the course record, and now some guy shows up, a
Speaker 1: tour player, and he's he's just going low and like
Speaker 1: he can go par par for sixty four and then
Speaker 1: thereby trump the club pro is now having the new
Speaker 1: course record, and he goes bogey or he doesn't hold
Speaker 1: out or does something to make sure that the club
Speaker 1: pro keeps the course record. Have you ever heard of
Speaker 1: that being a tradition? Yes? Yes, So I had the great,
Speaker 1: great privilege of working for a couple of really old
Speaker 1: school pros, guys that you know, a guy named John Miller,
Speaker 1: who who used to say, like, you know, I could
Speaker 1: run this place with a notebook in a shoe box.
Speaker 1: Get this computer out of here, right, we don't need
Speaker 1: facts machines. We'll be all right. And another man named
Speaker 1: Terry Hogan. And so we would hear stories of you know,
Speaker 1: like Terry Hogan would call Cherry Hills Country Club right
Speaker 1: and say like, hey, I'm coming through to play, and
Speaker 1: they would be like Hogan is coming right, and everybody
Speaker 1: would kind of go crazy thinking it was Ben Hogan,
Speaker 1: but it would be Terry Hogan. But yeah, you never
Speaker 1: want you know, because again this was in a different time, right,
Speaker 1: this had to be a pride point. And and one
Speaker 1: thing you'll learn about if you do get in the
Speaker 1: go in the club businesses. If there's five members at
Speaker 1: your club, you have five hundred bosses. So whatever leg
Speaker 1: you have to stand on is is helpful and and
Speaker 1: and being a good players important at a lot of clubs.
Speaker 1: So you don't want to take any shine off someone
Speaker 1: who's who's in your union, so to speak. Um, and
Speaker 1: you know, this is the Professionals Championship, this is the
Speaker 1: Association's championship. It it's it's a rich one. It's also
Speaker 1: given us really unique champions through the years like Sean McKeil,
Speaker 1: as you remember, Allen and Rich Beam and so we
Speaker 1: get we get some kind of unsuspecting champions in this
Speaker 1: in this tournament. And you know, I kind of appreciate
Speaker 1: that about it. But um, you know, for me, I
Speaker 1: love I love those old school pro stories, Michael, because
Speaker 1: a lot of those guys, you know, I think Bob
Speaker 1: Ford was one of the last to really go from
Speaker 1: one great club in the North for six months and
Speaker 1: then you know, take a couple of weeks and packed
Speaker 1: the station wagon and drive to Florida and then you're
Speaker 1: a prod a great club down there for a couple
Speaker 1: of months. So it's a rich tradition filled with a
Speaker 1: lot of great stories. I love that. Well, I think
Speaker 1: that's a good that's a good ending spot. You know,
Speaker 1: that's really what this this tournament is a link to
Speaker 1: the past and a different sort of different, more genteel agent. Um.
Speaker 1: You know, we all we all know Bob Ford. He
Speaker 1: was at Oakmon and he was at Seminole, and he's
Speaker 1: just one of the real it's a connective tissue between
Speaker 1: so many different people and so many different stories, and
Speaker 1: this was his week to shine, and like it was
Speaker 1: just fun to see him in this element. And hopefully
Speaker 1: we'll get a little another Cinderella story from amongst the
Speaker 1: club pro ranks. Hopefully we'll get one of the game's
Speaker 1: best players will will do his thing on this amazing
Speaker 1: golf course. So, um boys, thanks for for being part
Speaker 1: of this. Anyone have any parting thoughts before we we
Speaker 1: tip our cap to our corporate sponsors. Thank you guys,
Speaker 1: thanks for having me look forward to a great week
Speaker 1: from you guys. And big shout out to part Points,
Speaker 1: who's been a great supporter of fire Pit Collective from
Speaker 1: the very beginning. As I've said elsewhere, Michael's tired of
Speaker 1: hearing this already, but it is quite a clever little
Speaker 1: scoring app that I would encourage all you die hard
Speaker 1: golf fans to give a shot because it adds a
Speaker 1: different layer to what you're doing out there, and uh,
Speaker 1: it's quite a lot of fun. And they support quality
Speaker 1: journalism and quality podcasting and we're thankful for them. So
Speaker 1: for Michael Bamberger, lasar Sias, Ryan French, I'm Alan chep Night.
Speaker 1: This has been a fire drill podcast. We'll be doing
Speaker 1: them all week long from the PG Championship, So thanks
Speaker 1: for listening. Put another log on the fire nobody here
Speaker 1: is get the Time.