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Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Law with June grosseol from Bloomberg Radio.

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Speaker 2: At the end of last month, the Supreme Court upheld

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Speaker 2: more than a century of legal president by rejecting President

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Speaker 2: Trump's attempt to end automatic US citizenship for babies born here.

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Speaker 2: It was a six to three decision that cut across

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Speaker 2: ideological lines and rejected the Trump administration's contentions about what

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Speaker 2: it calls birth tourism, women traveling from countries like China

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Speaker 2: to give birth in the US to get citizenship for

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Speaker 2: their children, something Trump has long argued It wasn't for

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Speaker 2: billionaire Chinese people who have fifty seven children that become

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Speaker 2: American citizens. But now Trump says he'll ask the Supreme

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Speaker 2: Court to rehear the case, an extremely long shot move.

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Speaker 2: Joining me is immigration law expert Leon Fresco of Holland

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Speaker 2: and Knight.

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Speaker 3: Leon.

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Speaker 2: They haven't filed the papers yet, but do you have

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Speaker 2: any idea what the administration is going to base this

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Speaker 2: request for a rehearing on?

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Speaker 4: Well, the Trump administration, as you said, is asking for

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Speaker 4: a rehearing of the decision in the birth rights citizenship case.

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Speaker 4: A losing party has twenty five days to request rehearing

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Speaker 4: and Basically, what the Trump administration is saying is that

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Speaker 4: there are ads that he is pointing to, including one

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Speaker 4: from a Texas hospital aimed that expected mothers in Mexico,

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Speaker 4: and he's saying that those ads are showing that the

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Speaker 4: Supreme Court's decision has led to a surge in birth

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Speaker 4: tourism and therefore the Court's ruling is wrong, and so

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Speaker 4: he's saying that the Court needs to revisit the decision.

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Speaker 1: Now, is that actually true? Are more people coming?

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Speaker 4: I think all of these safeguards are in place to

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Speaker 4: obviously prevent people from entering the United States. Now, the

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Speaker 4: Trump administration actually has language in the Foreign Affairs Manual

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Speaker 4: that says, don't give a visitor visa to anyone who

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Speaker 4: appears is coming to give birth in the United States

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Speaker 4: unless there's very clear medical necessity for it and clear

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Speaker 4: evidence that they're sufficient money to pay for it. And

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Speaker 4: so from that perspective, I think the systems are in

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Speaker 4: place already to prevent this kind of birth tourism. But nevertheless,

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Speaker 4: the Trump administration is pushing and saying that the Court's

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Speaker 4: decision has unwittingly at leashed a new round of birth

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Speaker 4: tourism in the United States, The.

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Speaker 2: Actual number of cases of birth tourism is very low,

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Speaker 2: isn't it.

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Speaker 1: That's correct?

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Speaker 2: Do you know what the number is?

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Speaker 4: The problem is it's one of these proven negative things.

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Speaker 4: No one will actually know for sure because when people

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Speaker 4: travel to the United States, they very rarely disclose that

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Speaker 4: they're doing it for the purposes of giving birth. Very

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Speaker 4: rarely do people go through the actual formalities of getting

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Speaker 4: a visitor visa that for the purpose of getting medical

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Speaker 4: treatment to give birth. But people think at the maximum

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Speaker 4: it's in the low thousand.

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Speaker 1: So not even in the ten thousand range.

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Speaker 4: Of people who are actually coming and sort of circumventing

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Speaker 4: the US policies and giving birth while i'm visitor visas.

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Speaker 2: And the Supreme Court made its decision on constitutional grounds

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Speaker 2: that Trump's executive order on birthright citizenship couldn't be squared

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Speaker 2: with the fourteenth Amendment. So what's happening now is not

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Speaker 2: going to change a decision based on the constitution, correct.

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Speaker 4: I mean, the last time the Supreme Court agreed to

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Speaker 4: rehear a fully argued case was in nineteen sixty five,

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Speaker 4: and a full plenary rehearing hasn't been granted since nineteen

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Speaker 4: fifty six. So this is clearly a very long shot bid.

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Speaker 4: And I mean the beginning of the oral argument in

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Speaker 4: the birthright citizenship case was the Solicitor General talking about

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Speaker 4: birth tourism and saying it was a new world, and

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Speaker 4: Chief Justice Roberts says it wasn't a new constitution. And

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Speaker 4: so I think this issue, as they say in the law,

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Speaker 4: has been asked and answered, and so I don't think

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Speaker 4: that question can be re asked again because I think

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Speaker 4: that that was fully considered.

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Speaker 2: Also a bit of irony this week that the American

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Speaker 2: soccer star that President Trump intervened on behalf of is

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Speaker 2: a birthright citizen.

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Speaker 1: Correct.

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Speaker 4: The leading goal scorer for the US men's national team,

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Speaker 4: Fuller and Baligan, by all intents and purposes, should have

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Speaker 4: been born in England, but his mother was not permitted

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Speaker 4: to board a plane because she was in the eighth

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Speaker 4: month of the pregnancy, and so Fuller in Baligan was

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Speaker 4: born in the United States and because of that he

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Speaker 4: was conferred US citizenship. And a few years ago he

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Speaker 4: was becoming a very promising soccer player, and the US

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Speaker 4: Soccer Federation realized that he had this birthright citizenship, and

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Speaker 4: so they asked if he would be willing to play

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Speaker 4: for the US men's national team, and he said yes,

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Speaker 4: and so the rest is history.

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Speaker 1: And had there not been birthright citizen and Chip.

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Speaker 4: That would not be an individual who would have been

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Speaker 4: allowed to play in the United States soccer team.

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Speaker 2: Let's turn now to the growing number of shootings by

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Speaker 2: ICE agents. There was another deadly shooting on Tuesday. An

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Speaker 2: ICE officer shot a thirty nine year old Mexican national

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Speaker 2: who was in his car during an immigration enforcement stop

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Speaker 2: in Houston. He'd been living in the US for decades

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Speaker 2: without legal status. Federal officials say he weaponized his vehicle,

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Speaker 2: but they say that all the time in these cases,

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Speaker 2: and this time they've offered no evidence.

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Speaker 4: This case is already one of the more complicated cases

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Speaker 4: from the standpoint that ICE usually tries, in order to

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Speaker 4: avoid any conflagration like this, to go to an individual's

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Speaker 4: home or to at worst go to their workplace or

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Speaker 4: a specific check insite to conduct arrests. But at the moment,

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Speaker 4: the White House is really pressing, and then now the

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Speaker 4: new Secretary of Homeland Security's really pressing again to try

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Speaker 4: to get two thousand arrests per day, although he's trying

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Speaker 4: also to say, try to make these arrests as low

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Speaker 4: profile as possible, and nevertheless, when you try to get

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Speaker 4: these numbers, now they've caught this individual in traffic as opposed.

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Speaker 1: To at home or at work.

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Speaker 4: And so it's unclear if this individual was someone they

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Speaker 4: were trying to catch at home and they couldn't and

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Speaker 4: found them on the road, or whether this was an

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Speaker 4: individual that just looked suspicious to Ice who was happened

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Speaker 4: to be on the road as well. But the point is,

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Speaker 4: once Ice confronted this individual who was clearly undocumented, this

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Speaker 4: individual sort of reacted in a manner that led.

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Speaker 1: Ice to shoot them.

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Speaker 4: And we'll have to wait and see with regard to

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Speaker 4: body camera footage and other witness testimony. Was this like

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Speaker 4: the situation in Minnesota where people argued that the Ice

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Speaker 4: agents were not under thread from the vehicle and still

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Speaker 4: shot the woman in their car, or is this a

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Speaker 4: real situation where someone was trying to run over Ice

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Speaker 4: officers in order to avoid detection. I mean, anyone who

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Speaker 4: tries to comment without knowing the facts really is doing

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Speaker 4: a diservice. But the point is, when you do these

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Speaker 4: car apprehensions, that's always a risk that doesn't exist when

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Speaker 4: you do the home apprehension or the office apprehension is obviously,

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Speaker 4: no one's.

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Speaker 1: Going to run you over with a car if they're

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Speaker 1: not in their car.

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Speaker 2: According to the New York Times, as you referred to,

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Speaker 2: there's been a major surge in arrest and orders from

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Speaker 2: the top, and ICE agents have been arresting people at

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Speaker 2: check ins with immigration authorities, during traffic stops and on

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Speaker 2: the streets, and apprehensions doubled from the one thousand picked

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Speaker 2: up each day earlier this year. So in trying to

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Speaker 2: increase the numbers, they have to go outside of arresting

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Speaker 2: people at their homes.

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Speaker 4: Correct, It's basically impossible because what you need when you

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Speaker 4: go into a home.

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Speaker 1: Is you need a warrant, and you need.

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Speaker 4: A group of people because you can't just have one

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Speaker 4: person because of safety reasons, and so all of that

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Speaker 4: takes time and energy and resources and manpower, and so

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Speaker 4: if you need two thousand arrests a day, you have

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Speaker 4: to find easier ways to do that.

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Speaker 1: And to the extent ICE has.

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Speaker 4: Now been given permission to arrest anyone it deems to

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Speaker 4: be suspicious on.

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Speaker 1: The road, then there's no doubt more.

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Speaker 4: Situations like this are going to happen, whether they be

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Speaker 4: from the person that gets arrested, or whether they be

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Speaker 4: from people who are protesting the person getting arrested, because

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Speaker 4: we've seen both kinds of situations flare up where now

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Speaker 4: we've seen the person getting arrested involved in a shooting,

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Speaker 4: but we've also seen the people protesting.

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Speaker 1: The arrest get involved in the shooting.

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Speaker 4: And so, you know, this is sort of like a

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Speaker 4: push pool where when there's less of these operations, then

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Speaker 4: there's less of these incidents. But any sort of intensification

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Speaker 4: of these operations, unfortunately always seems to carry an intensification

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Speaker 4: of these incidents.

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Speaker 2: More than twenty people have been shot by ice since September,

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Speaker 2: and nearly all of them in their cars. At least

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Speaker 2: six have been killed. I mean, last year there was

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Speaker 2: a federal immigration agents shot at fatally shot a twenty

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Speaker 2: three year old US citizen during the late night traffic stop.

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Speaker 2: And in most of these cases, the federal officials said

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Speaker 2: that the actions were justified because the vehicles had been

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Speaker 2: weaponized and the agent's lives were in danger. Shouldn't there

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Speaker 2: be better procedures if they're going to do these traffic

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Speaker 2: stops to eliminate this right.

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Speaker 1: No, absolutely.

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Speaker 4: I mean, at the end of the day, the traffic

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Speaker 4: stop really should be for someone who is avoiding being

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Speaker 4: apprehended at their home or at their work where they've

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Speaker 4: sort of gotten in their car and they're trying to

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Speaker 4: run away. Now, but I think routine traffic stops for

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Speaker 4: ice where ICE is being told you have the authority

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Speaker 4: to arrest people who you if you're driving around you

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Speaker 4: think they look suspicious. That to me is impossible to

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Speaker 4: think that it's not going to continue to lead to

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Speaker 4: these situations. Because someone is in their car, they're desperate.

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Speaker 4: They now are thinking in their head, oh my lord,

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Speaker 4: I'm going to be apprehended. I'm not going to be

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Speaker 4: able to see my children or my spouse, I'm not

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Speaker 4: gonna be able to tell them where they are. And

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Speaker 4: they just flip out, and the first thing they think

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Speaker 4: to do is to drive the car away, And that

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Speaker 4: act of driving the car away can easily be seen

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Speaker 4: as a weaponization of the car. It's not justifiable, it's

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Speaker 4: just predictable, is the only point that I'm making.

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Speaker 1: And so I'm not trying to.

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Speaker 4: Justify the act of the foreign nation who's moving their car.

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Speaker 4: I'm just trying to say that in some number of cases,

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Speaker 4: if you are actuarially at analyzing this, you would say

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Speaker 4: it's predictable that the foreign national is going to try

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Speaker 4: to get away if they're inside their car.

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Speaker 2: So the Department of Homeland Security Inspectors General's Office is

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Speaker 2: conducting an investigation. The FBI has opened an investigation into

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Speaker 2: a possible assault on a federal law enforcement officer. But

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Speaker 2: once again they are excluding local authorities. So the DA

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Speaker 2: of Harris County that covers Houston said that federal authorities,

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Speaker 2: unfortunately are continuing to exclusively handle all aspects in this case.

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Speaker 2: Isn't this a problem? You have the administration investigating the

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Speaker 2: administration with local authorities always cut out well.

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Speaker 4: So we have a couple of cases recently that sort

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Speaker 4: of talk about these issues. We have these cases where

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Speaker 4: the states are trying to impose obligations on and the

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Speaker 4: courts are saying, no, you can't do that. You can't

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Speaker 4: impose obligations on how federal law enforcement officials operate and

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Speaker 4: enforce federal law. And then you have the general doctrine

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Speaker 4: on this issue, which came up when Minnesota tried to

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Speaker 4: prosecute these ICE agents which is that you have to

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Speaker 4: show that these federal agents are basically acting so far

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Speaker 4: outside of the scope of their employment that they're basically murderers,

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Speaker 4: because that's the only way that their immunity can be

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Speaker 4: taken away, and that's very hard to prove. And in Texas,

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Speaker 4: the local officials don't want to get in that business.

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Speaker 4: Maybe like in New York or Minnesota or some other places,

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Speaker 4: they're more willing to try to get into that business

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Speaker 4: of saying that the ICE agents were not acting.

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Speaker 1: Within the scope for employment and.

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Speaker 4: Were essentially murdering someone, But the local officials in Texas

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Speaker 4: don't want to go down that route.

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Speaker 2: Coming up next, the Department of Homeland Security is stuck

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Speaker 2: between two conflicting federal court rooms rulings. This is Bloomberg.

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Speaker 2: The Department of Homeland Security is stuck between two conflicting

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Speaker 2: federal court rulings. One in Florida compels it to play

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Speaker 2: ball with red states looking for information on immigration status.

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Speaker 2: The other in DC does just the opposite and compels

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Speaker 2: DHS to shut down such bulk inquiries using social security numbers.

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Speaker 2: The dispute boils down to whether federal privacy laws prevents

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Speaker 2: states from utilizing SAVE, the Systematic Alien Verification for Entitlement

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Speaker 2: system to perform checks on migrant status for use in

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Speaker 2: state licensing and election registration processes. I've been talking to

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Speaker 2: Leon Fresco of Holland and Knight. He was the former

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Speaker 2: head of the Office of Civil Immigration Litigation in the

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Speaker 2: Obama administration. Leon explained the issue with this SAVE system.

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Speaker 1: So this is a little bit complex.

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Speaker 4: So I want to take your listeners through this so

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Speaker 4: that they understand everything that's going on. So there's a

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Speaker 4: database called SAFE Systematic Alien Verification for Entitlements Database, and

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Speaker 4: so that actually has a meaning for entitlements, meaning that

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Speaker 4: the purpose of that database was originally for states to

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Speaker 4: determine in programs.

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Speaker 1: Like Medicare, Medicaid.

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Speaker 4: Food stamps, et cetera, whether people had the correct immigration

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Speaker 4: status to be able to collect those entitlements. You know

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Speaker 4: what people used to call welfare programs or public benefits programs.

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Speaker 1: And if you didn't.

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Speaker 4: Have the correct immigration status to collect, then you wouldn't

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Speaker 4: get it. You'd run the system. And that was required

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Speaker 4: by Congress that THEHS provide these databases to the states

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Speaker 4: in order to check for welfare benefits. Now what happens

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Speaker 4: is you have the election in twenty twenty you have

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Speaker 4: President Trump say that he was cheated from winning because

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Speaker 4: of documented people were voting on mass etc. And many

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Speaker 4: states took this too hard, and in twenty twenty four

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Speaker 4: they sued the federal government, the Biden administration, and said, look,

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Speaker 4: we want access to this saved database in order to

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Speaker 4: determine if our voter roles are filled with undocumented people.

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Speaker 4: And they argued that there were a number of statutory

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Speaker 4: requirements that basically required the states to actually do this.

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Speaker 4: So they said that there was four statutes, the National

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Speaker 4: Voter Registration Act, the Help America Vote Act, the Civil

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Speaker 4: Rights Act of nineteen sixty and there were actually already

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Speaker 4: memorandums of agreement between the states and the federal government

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Speaker 4: that all said that states had a duty to make

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Speaker 4: sure that illegal voters could not vote.

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Speaker 1: And so the state sudents said, if you don't.

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Speaker 4: Give us access to this saved database for the purposes

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Speaker 4: of clearing our voter roles of undocumented individuals, then you

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Speaker 4: are basically putting a mandate on us and not giving

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Speaker 4: us the materials we need to fulfill that mandate. And

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Speaker 4: that case didn't get adjudicated. What happened was DHS reached

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Speaker 4: a settlement with the States and said, fine, we'll give

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Speaker 4: you access to the safe database, and we'll actually add

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Speaker 4: some citizenship information in it that we know, whether it

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Speaker 4: be from passports or social security numbers and drivers licenses

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Speaker 4: and other things.

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Speaker 1: We're going to add.

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Speaker 4: All of that into the database because now they have

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Speaker 4: all this very expert IT and AI and everything else,

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Speaker 4: and we're going to give you this so that you

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Speaker 4: can then purge your.

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Speaker 1: Voter roles of undocumented people.

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Speaker 4: But then what happened is Public Interest Organization sued in Washington,

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Speaker 4: in the District of Columbia, and they said, wait a second,

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Speaker 4: this information that you're providing about citizens now not just

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Speaker 4: about foreign nationals, which was what used to be the

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Speaker 4: SAVE database. You didn't run this by the Correct Privacy Act,

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Speaker 4: Social Security Act, e Government Act of two thousand and two.

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Speaker 4: You didn't do any of that privacy protections and analysis.

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Speaker 4: And so now you're having DHS, which is supposed to

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Speaker 4: only be dealing with foreign nationals, having a database of citizens.

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Speaker 4: That's violating their privacy. That that settlement agreement violated all

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Speaker 4: these statutes violated their privacy.

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Speaker 1: And so the District Court in DC issued.

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Speaker 4: An injunction saying, stop it, stop it, Department of Homeland Security,

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Speaker 4: do not share this information with the states about the

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Speaker 4: citizenship and the voter roles and who's undocumented.

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Speaker 1: And who isn't.

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Speaker 4: And then the court where there was the settlement, which

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Speaker 4: was in Florida, came back now and said, hey, the

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Speaker 4: DC court is wrong. The government is now violating the settlement.

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Speaker 4: So the government, we're gonna hold you in content if

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Speaker 4: you don't give this information. So now THEHS is stuck

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Speaker 4: between I rock and a hard place because it's either

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Speaker 4: violating the court order in DC or it's violating the

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Speaker 4: court order in Tallahassee. Obviously, the Trump administration wants to

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Speaker 4: comply with the court order in Tallahassee, not with the

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Speaker 4: one in DC.

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Speaker 2: The Florida Federal judge, a Trump appointee, said, the court

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Speaker 2: understands that this puts defendants in a bind because they're

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Speaker 2: subject to two contradictory orders. One of the orders has

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Speaker 2: to give, and not surprisingly, the court is not persuaded

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Speaker 2: by defendants and Amiki's arguments that its order is the

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Speaker 2: one that should give.

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Speaker 4: So what happens, So the Trump administration has had a

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Speaker 4: high priority of trying to enforce these purging of the

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Speaker 4: voter rolls for undocumented people. So they're gonna comply with

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Speaker 4: the Florida Court, the Dallazi Court.

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Speaker 1: That says that at the end of the day.

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Speaker 4: You have to provide this information. So what that will

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Speaker 4: lead to is the District Court in DC holding the

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Speaker 4: federal government in contempt for violating its order, which then

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Speaker 4: the federal government will have to appeal to the DC

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Speaker 4: Circuit and then ultimately to the Supreme Court if the

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Speaker 4: DC Circuit doesn't give the government relief from that. I

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Speaker 4: don't think that anything's going to happen in the Eleventh

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Speaker 4: Circuit because what I think is going to happen is

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Speaker 4: the government is going to abide buy the Florida court order,

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Speaker 4: and so then the litigation will end up coming through

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Speaker 4: DC in order to try to get relief from the

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Speaker 4: DC order.

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Speaker 1: That's what I think is going to happen.

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Speaker 2: Another immigration case at the Supreme Court. No surprise there.

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Speaker 2: On another topic, employers looking to hire workers from outside

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Speaker 2: the US may be feeling a little whiplash about the

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Speaker 2: one hundred thousand dollars fee required for every new AI

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Speaker 2: visa petition, it's caught up in litigation. Start by giving

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Speaker 2: us the background on this leon.

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Speaker 4: We all remember, starting in twenty seventeen and working our

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Speaker 4: way through today twenty twenty six, the Trump administration has

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Speaker 4: been using what's called INA Section two twelve f, which

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Speaker 4: is a statute that says when the president thinks it's

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Speaker 4: in the national interest to ban certain foreign nationals from

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Speaker 4: coming to the United States, the president could ban those

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Speaker 4: foreign nationals. So we knew that from the context of

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Speaker 4: what was called the travel ban or the Muslim ban.

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Speaker 4: That was the original ban of six countries, and then

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Speaker 4: it got extended to other countries like North Korea, and

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Speaker 4: there was the Trump versus Hawaii case where the Supreme

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Speaker 4: Court said, yes, the banning authority is legal and it

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Speaker 4: can be used. So after that, the Trump administration started

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Speaker 4: using the ban for more things. COVID public charge that

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Speaker 4: they think that people from certain countries are going to

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Speaker 4: have welfare.

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Speaker 1: There's thirty nine countries that are currently banned.

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Speaker 4: After the shooting that happened in front of the White

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Speaker 4: House by an Afghan refugee, there's thirty nine countries that

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Speaker 4: are fully banned from getting any visa. So a new

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Speaker 4: ban like six months ago was to say instead of

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Speaker 4: a ban, what we'll do is, we'll have a ban

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Speaker 4: on all people who want to get an H one

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Speaker 4: B visa, which is a visa for high skilled immigrants

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Speaker 4: who want to perform work in the United States. We're

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Speaker 4: going to ban those people from coming in unless their

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Speaker 4: employer pays one hundred thousand dollars.

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Speaker 1: And so the question in.

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Speaker 4: This litigation is is that just a normal ban that

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Speaker 4: has an exception to it, or is that really a

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Speaker 4: tax that's not a ban, it's just a tax. And

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Speaker 4: if it's a tax, then Congress has to pass the tax.

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Speaker 4: It's not something that can be done as part of

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Speaker 4: the banning authority that the President has under I in

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Speaker 4: a section two twelve F.

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Speaker 2: How has the one hundred thousand dollars fee affected the

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Speaker 2: number of peace people getting H one B visus.

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Speaker 4: There are a lot of companies that hire foreign students

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Speaker 4: in the US, so it hasn't affected those people because

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Speaker 4: those people are inside the United States, so they can't

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Speaker 4: be banned.

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Speaker 1: Because they're already here.

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Speaker 4: But there are some companies that have a business model

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Speaker 4: that what they do is that people get educated in

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Speaker 4: the prestigious universities in India, and then they hire those

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Speaker 4: people directly from those prestigious universities in India to come

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Speaker 4: directly into the United States and provide work, whether it's

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Speaker 4: in IAI or IT or whatever else it is.

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Speaker 1: And now those individuals cannot.

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Speaker 4: Come into the US because the employers do not want

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Speaker 4: to pay this one hundred thousand dollars fee to bring

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Speaker 4: in those employees. They'll take them to Canada or somewhere else.

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Speaker 4: They won't bring them into the United States. And so

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Speaker 4: the question is for those employers and the US Chamber

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Speaker 4: of Commerce first file the lawsuit in DC and then others.

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Speaker 4: There's a lawsuit that was filed in the first Circuit,

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Speaker 4: and there's a lawsuit was filed in the Northern District

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Speaker 4: of California. But different employers have filed and have argued that.

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Speaker 1: That law was illegal.

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Speaker 4: And really what happened was the first court in the

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Speaker 4: District of Columbia said it was fine because it was

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Speaker 4: part of the ban authority. So if you could impose

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Speaker 4: a ban, then why couldn't you impose a way around

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Speaker 4: the ban, a conditional ban. And so the court said

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Speaker 4: it was fine. But then in between that decision and

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Speaker 4: the decision that happened in the district court that was

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Speaker 4: in the first Circuit. There was a case involving tariffs

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Speaker 4: that the Supreme Court said that the tyreffs were really

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Speaker 4: attacks and that the tax needed to be done by Congress.

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Speaker 4: And so then the plaintiffs changed their argument to say

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Speaker 4: that alas, this is the problem. The problem is not

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Speaker 4: that the banning authority was used improperly. The problem was

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Speaker 4: that this is actually a tax, and a tax needs

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Speaker 4: to be done by Congress. And so the District Court

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Speaker 4: agreed with that and has basically said, I'm enjoining this

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Speaker 4: one hundred thousand dollars fee. But the only problem is

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Speaker 4: that then the District Court stayed its order while it's

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Speaker 4: on appeal in the First Circuit. And so even though

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Speaker 4: there's a District of Massachusetts decision that currently says that

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Speaker 4: the fee is an illegal tax, the fee is still

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Speaker 4: being charged because that decision has been stayed and we

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Speaker 4: will see what the First Circuit says about this. And

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Speaker 4: there's also similar litigation in the Northern District of California.

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Speaker 4: So in the end, what this means is that the

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Speaker 4: Supreme Court is likely going to get involved and decide

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Speaker 4: whether not just the banning authority is.

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Speaker 1: Legal, because we know that that's legal.

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Speaker 4: But whether the president can say you're banned unless you

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Speaker 4: pay a fee.

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Speaker 1: Can they do that or does that become now a tax?

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Speaker 4: And so you could either do a ban or no ban,

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Speaker 4: but you can't do a ban with a fee to

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Speaker 4: work your way around the band.

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Speaker 2: And so yet another immigration case for this Supreme Court.

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Speaker 2: Thanks so much for covering the gamut on immigration with me. Leon.

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Speaker 2: That's Leon Fresco of Honda Knight. I'm June Grosso and

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Speaker 2: you're listening to Bloomberg. A bipartisan group of state and

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Speaker 2: federal judges, both current and retired, are hitting the road

445
00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:21,879
Speaker 2: in a first of its kind bus tour across three

446
00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:25,560
Speaker 2: states to bring judges out of the courthouses and into

447
00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:29,480
Speaker 2: the communities. The Justice in Motion Tour is designed to

448
00:25:29,560 --> 00:25:33,800
Speaker 2: promote public trust in the judiciary by explaining the role

449
00:25:33,920 --> 00:25:38,840
Speaker 2: court's play in our lives and countering disinformation. The judges

450
00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:43,600
Speaker 2: will travel through Pennsylvania, Ohio, and Michigan, meeting with students,

451
00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:48,440
Speaker 2: civic leaders, attorneys, business owners, and others, answering their questions

452
00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:52,720
Speaker 2: and giving them the rare opportunity to speak directly with judges.

453
00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:55,840
Speaker 2: My guest is one of the judges on that bus,

454
00:25:56,040 --> 00:26:00,600
Speaker 2: Chief Justice Mourn O'Connor retired from the Ohio Supreme Court.

455
00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:03,800
Speaker 2: Thanks for joining me today, Chief Justice. So tell us

456
00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:06,320
Speaker 2: why you decided to go on this bus tour and

457
00:26:06,359 --> 00:26:08,280
Speaker 2: what you hope to accomplish.

458
00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:11,760
Speaker 3: To draw attention to the fact that the judiciary is

459
00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:14,480
Speaker 3: under attack. You know, we have obviously, I don't have

460
00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:17,040
Speaker 3: to tell you that. You know, the three branches of government,

461
00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:20,600
Speaker 3: they're supposed to be coequal, and what we at the

462
00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:26,720
Speaker 3: public seem almost daily is elected officials, usually in Washington

463
00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:34,560
Speaker 3: but other places denigrating personally demonstrating judges and attributing motives

464
00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:38,280
Speaker 3: to those judges that are just not true. You know

465
00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:41,560
Speaker 3: that they're not corrupt, they're following the law. Never is

466
00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:46,800
Speaker 3: the criticism of the opinion based on a legal analysis

467
00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:49,960
Speaker 3: by the person who is speaking. It's they don't like

468
00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:52,880
Speaker 3: the results, and so they're going to do a personal

469
00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:55,440
Speaker 3: attack on that judge. They're going to name the judge,

470
00:26:55,480 --> 00:26:58,399
Speaker 3: you know, the President, for example, the rating justices on

471
00:26:58,440 --> 00:27:01,439
Speaker 3: the Supreme Court because they weren't oil to him. You know,

472
00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:04,320
Speaker 3: I want to say, yes, mister Putin, you know, that's

473
00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:07,800
Speaker 3: exactly what it sounds like. So you know, these personal

474
00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:12,199
Speaker 3: attacks on judges are dangerous. The increase in the number

475
00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:15,520
Speaker 3: of reports for the Federal Judiciary, I think they had

476
00:27:15,560 --> 00:27:19,879
Speaker 3: almost six hundred investigations last year and at this point

477
00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:22,560
Speaker 3: in time they have I think about two hundred and

478
00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:25,359
Speaker 3: fifty two hundred and sixty trusts against judges that they

479
00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:30,480
Speaker 3: are investigating. You know about the piazza deliveries to judges addressers,

480
00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:33,240
Speaker 3: So that's the message we know where you live sort

481
00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:37,440
Speaker 3: of thing, or to their children. It's diabolical and they're

482
00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:40,280
Speaker 3: doing it because they don't want to follow the rule

483
00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:44,560
Speaker 3: of law. They want to influence and intimidate. And then,

484
00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:49,359
Speaker 3: you know, think about it, the less informed individuals would

485
00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:53,680
Speaker 3: believe that it's okay to target and judge, and there

486
00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:56,480
Speaker 3: have been attempts and there have been murders of judges

487
00:27:56,640 --> 00:27:59,800
Speaker 3: here in the United States by parties to the cases,

488
00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:03,160
Speaker 3: or parties that are interested in the cases, or somebody

489
00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:05,879
Speaker 3: who's is a zealot. And you know, they always use

490
00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:09,720
Speaker 3: the example of the Federal New Jersey a judge whose

491
00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:12,439
Speaker 3: son was killed and her husband was wounded. She was

492
00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:16,440
Speaker 3: in home at the time, and in Ohio in twenty seventeen,

493
00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:20,160
Speaker 3: a party was laying in wait for a judge, Judge

494
00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:24,000
Speaker 3: Berziz trial judge, and he had had a conversation with

495
00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:27,400
Speaker 3: his attorney, and the attorney was preparing him for losing

496
00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:30,399
Speaker 3: the case because you know, legally it was an unsounded

497
00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:32,840
Speaker 3: case and the judge was probably going to rule against him.

498
00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:35,640
Speaker 3: So he shows up in the morning as the judge's

499
00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:38,440
Speaker 3: parking his car in a parking lot. This guy's laying

500
00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:40,800
Speaker 3: in wait with a gun. The judge almost dies. And

501
00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:43,560
Speaker 3: again that was twenty seventeen. He's back on the bed.

502
00:28:43,720 --> 00:28:47,080
Speaker 3: But you know, immediately then you think, well, if that happens,

503
00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:51,040
Speaker 3: is they could inspire another koup, you know, to take action.

504
00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:54,719
Speaker 3: The rhetoric that is being thrown around now is you know,

505
00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:57,840
Speaker 3: doing just that we're under attack, and if the judiciary's

506
00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:01,240
Speaker 3: under attack, the rule of law cannot stand.

507
00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:05,920
Speaker 2: You can't stop President Trump and members of the administration

508
00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:10,360
Speaker 2: even from saying these things about judges. So what are

509
00:29:10,360 --> 00:29:12,800
Speaker 2: you trying to do specifically on this trip.

510
00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:18,000
Speaker 3: We're trying to identify whatever is being said as misinformation

511
00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:23,800
Speaker 3: and political theater. Really, and the judicial system is suffering.

512
00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:28,160
Speaker 3: So here's what judges really do. We explain that we

513
00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:31,360
Speaker 3: have just a varied audience. I just left a group

514
00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:34,400
Speaker 3: called Law and Leadership, which are high school students, minority

515
00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:38,120
Speaker 3: students primarily, and we just had a wonderful conversation with them.

516
00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:42,400
Speaker 3: So we're imparting information, you know, straight from the horse's mouth,

517
00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:45,800
Speaker 3: so to speak about the judicial system, about it, the

518
00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:52,800
Speaker 3: undertach how these personal taxs are misinformation disinformation, and you know,

519
00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:55,040
Speaker 3: we talk about the rule of law, and we talk

520
00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:57,800
Speaker 3: about if we don't have the rule of law. In

521
00:29:57,840 --> 00:30:02,400
Speaker 3: other words, if judges are making decisions based on intimidation

522
00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:07,240
Speaker 3: or party affiliation or you know, being loyal to someone

523
00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:10,320
Speaker 3: who's helped them become a judge, that's a breach of

524
00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:14,800
Speaker 3: the rule of law. And when that breaks down, society

525
00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:17,560
Speaker 3: breaks down. We don't have, you know, a law that

526
00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:20,640
Speaker 3: we can rely on. Businesses can you know, conduct their

527
00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:24,480
Speaker 3: business with certainty because they don't know what the rules are. Now,

528
00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:28,640
Speaker 3: you know, it really reverberates through society. And that's the

529
00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:30,600
Speaker 3: message and I know it's a big message. But the

530
00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:32,680
Speaker 3: way it can be done we ask these people to

531
00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:37,959
Speaker 3: be messengers. Once we explain things and say, help educate

532
00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:41,680
Speaker 3: your family, help educate, you know, your circle of friends

533
00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:44,080
Speaker 3: about this and you know, be messengers.

534
00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:45,720
Speaker 2: And how has it been going so far?

535
00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:49,680
Speaker 3: There have been some really delightful times and we're getting

536
00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:54,800
Speaker 3: prouds of people that are so sincere. We just left

537
00:30:55,360 --> 00:30:58,440
Speaker 3: the Ohio State University and we were with a group

538
00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:03,400
Speaker 3: called Law and Leadership, which is primarily minority membership for

539
00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:07,840
Speaker 3: kids in high school and the goal is to encourage

540
00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:11,360
Speaker 3: them to go to college and give them experiences. And

541
00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:14,480
Speaker 3: I have been involved with long leadership, you know, since

542
00:31:14,520 --> 00:31:17,520
Speaker 3: its infection, and we got to do a lot of

543
00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:21,480
Speaker 3: small group interaction with them. I had two young ladies

544
00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:25,040
Speaker 3: and we just had a wonderful conversation and you know,

545
00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:28,760
Speaker 3: I wish them well. They were just delightful and smart.

546
00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:31,400
Speaker 2: I'm curious about something, and I know you have both

547
00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:35,840
Speaker 2: federal and state judges on the bus tour. So the

548
00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:39,200
Speaker 2: National Center for State Courts in December of last year

549
00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:42,600
Speaker 2: did its yearly survey and it found that sixty two

550
00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:48,360
Speaker 2: percent of respondents expressed trust in the state court system.

551
00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:51,680
Speaker 2: And that's more than express trust in the federal court

552
00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:54,440
Speaker 2: system that was just fifty two percent. And I'm wondering

553
00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:57,920
Speaker 2: if you have a feel for why that's the case.

554
00:31:58,760 --> 00:32:03,960
Speaker 3: Well, they judiciary is much closer to the people in Ohio.

555
00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:07,760
Speaker 3: For example, all of our judges are elected, so judges campaign.

556
00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:11,520
Speaker 3: You know, I always have said to judges, get off

557
00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:13,880
Speaker 3: the bench and get out into the community. You know,

558
00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:16,480
Speaker 3: you come from the community, and then you isolate yourself.

559
00:32:16,600 --> 00:32:18,640
Speaker 3: You know, some judges suits, you know, don't do that.

560
00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:21,520
Speaker 3: You know, still speak to the rotaries, you know, whatever

561
00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:25,400
Speaker 3: the organizations are. Speak to high school classes. It's a

562
00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:29,560
Speaker 3: wonderful thing to do to help educate the public about

563
00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:30,960
Speaker 3: the third branch of governments.

564
00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:34,760
Speaker 2: Well, thank you so much for joining me today, Chief Justice,

565
00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:38,479
Speaker 2: and good luck on your tour. That's retired Chief Justice

566
00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:44,040
Speaker 2: Moreno O'Connor of the Ohio Supreme Court. The DC Circuit

567
00:32:44,040 --> 00:32:48,880
Speaker 2: has rejected the Justice Department's request to temporarily lift a

568
00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:53,640
Speaker 2: judge's ruling against the renaming of the Kennedy Center. A

569
00:32:53,680 --> 00:32:58,680
Speaker 2: three judge panel ruled unanimously that President Trump's name must

570
00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:03,200
Speaker 2: stay off the Kennedy's Center's facade while the administration fights

571
00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:07,600
Speaker 2: in court to reinstate it's renaming of the historic performing

572
00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:11,480
Speaker 2: arts center. My guest is Bloomberg Law reporter Suzanne Monyac,

573
00:33:11,560 --> 00:33:15,120
Speaker 2: who's been covering all these cases on the challenges to

574
00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:20,760
Speaker 2: Trump's attempts to redo DC. Suzanne start by reminding us

575
00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:23,760
Speaker 2: what the DC federal judge had ruled in May.

576
00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:27,800
Speaker 5: Judge Casey Cooper and DC ruled in May that Trump

577
00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:30,320
Speaker 5: essentially didn't have legal authority to change the.

578
00:33:30,360 --> 00:33:32,120
Speaker 6: Name of the Kennedy Center to his own.

579
00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:34,560
Speaker 5: He found that a law passed by Congress making this

580
00:33:34,600 --> 00:33:37,880
Speaker 5: a memorial for the late President John F. Kennedy was

581
00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:40,360
Speaker 5: clear and that it couldn't be named for somebody else,

582
00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:42,760
Speaker 5: and so as a result, that his name couldn't remain

583
00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:43,280
Speaker 5: on the building.

584
00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:47,520
Speaker 2: I'm recalling, if I'm correct, that at the time of

585
00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:51,520
Speaker 2: the ruling, President Trump said, Okay, they're dropping it. But

586
00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:53,840
Speaker 2: they didn't drop it. They took it to the DC

587
00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:55,040
Speaker 2: Appellate Court.

588
00:33:55,320 --> 00:33:57,360
Speaker 5: Well, it just sort of looked that way because the

589
00:33:57,440 --> 00:33:59,960
Speaker 5: judge gave them fourteen days to do something about it

590
00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:03,120
Speaker 5: before his ruling would take effect, and they didn't do anything.

591
00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:05,120
Speaker 5: So for a minute it looked like, Oh, they're going

592
00:34:05,160 --> 00:34:06,720
Speaker 5: to take his name down and they're just going to

593
00:34:06,840 --> 00:34:07,720
Speaker 5: abandon this fight.

594
00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:10,000
Speaker 6: But that at the very last minute.

595
00:34:09,680 --> 00:34:12,239
Speaker 5: They filed a request to to Washington d C's Federal

596
00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:15,719
Speaker 5: appeals Court and asked them for a ruling giving them

597
00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:19,440
Speaker 5: a relief for some temporary reprieve from this lower court.

598
00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:21,920
Speaker 6: Ruling while they appealed it. But the d C. Circuit

599
00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:23,520
Speaker 6: has now twice said no. Dice.

600
00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:26,160
Speaker 5: Initially they said no, you know, they didn't say much

601
00:34:26,160 --> 00:34:27,960
Speaker 5: about it, but I think the thought was that it

602
00:34:27,960 --> 00:34:30,000
Speaker 5: had been very last minute, and they said no, I'm

603
00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:33,520
Speaker 5: not going to lift this ruling. They initially denied what's

604
00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:36,480
Speaker 5: called it administrative stay, so just a very late temporary stay.

605
00:34:37,160 --> 00:34:39,120
Speaker 5: So they denied that, so the name came down, but

606
00:34:39,160 --> 00:34:41,600
Speaker 5: then they did brief it, and this latest has been

607
00:34:41,680 --> 00:34:43,879
Speaker 5: that they have said, no, you can't have your name

608
00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:45,160
Speaker 5: on it while the case continues.

609
00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:49,400
Speaker 2: So tell us what the Justice Department's argument was the

610
00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:50,800
Speaker 2: latest argument.

611
00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:54,279
Speaker 5: In this latest development post Casey Cooper's ruling and now

612
00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:57,640
Speaker 5: their efforts to lift it. They've been arguing that by

613
00:34:57,719 --> 00:35:00,160
Speaker 5: having his name be taken off the building that it

614
00:35:00,160 --> 00:35:03,040
Speaker 5: would irreparably harm the government. That's the standard for getting

615
00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:05,160
Speaker 5: what's known as a stay of a lower court ruling

616
00:35:05,200 --> 00:35:07,400
Speaker 5: while you appeal it. They are claiming that that's for

617
00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:10,040
Speaker 5: two reasons, one of which no longer applies. They initially

618
00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:12,040
Speaker 5: argued that it didn't make sense for them to have

619
00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:14,319
Speaker 5: to take Trump's name off the building only to have

620
00:35:14,360 --> 00:35:16,319
Speaker 5: to put it back if they were to eventually win

621
00:35:16,360 --> 00:35:18,919
Speaker 5: the case, which they think they're likely to do. Of course,

622
00:35:18,960 --> 00:35:20,799
Speaker 5: now his name's already off the building, so that no

623
00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:23,960
Speaker 5: longer applies. The other argument that they've made was that

624
00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:26,600
Speaker 5: having his name no longer be on the building. Trump's

625
00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:30,480
Speaker 5: name would hurt their fundraising efforts. They'd argued that people

626
00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:33,120
Speaker 5: give money to the center because it is named for Trump,

627
00:35:33,440 --> 00:35:36,440
Speaker 5: and that it would undermine the center financially. But the

628
00:35:36,520 --> 00:35:40,160
Speaker 5: DC Circuit, Washington's federal appeals Court, really wasn't moved by

629
00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:43,000
Speaker 5: that and found that there had not been enough material

630
00:35:43,080 --> 00:35:46,120
Speaker 5: facts or evidence to back up that claim, and that

631
00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:48,560
Speaker 5: also it hadn't been presented before in court and was

632
00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:51,040
Speaker 5: just being presented now on appeal for the first time.

633
00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:54,280
Speaker 5: But specifically just said that they didn't see any evidence

634
00:35:54,440 --> 00:35:57,880
Speaker 5: just conclusiory is the word that they used assertions of

635
00:35:57,920 --> 00:36:00,480
Speaker 5: financial harm. They just didn't think that what they had

636
00:36:00,480 --> 00:36:04,120
Speaker 5: put forward was enough to meet the standard for a day,

637
00:36:04,160 --> 00:36:07,120
Speaker 5: which is known as to be more extraordinary relief. So

638
00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:10,720
Speaker 5: that was their explanation in a relatively brief order denying

639
00:36:10,760 --> 00:36:12,560
Speaker 5: the Trump administration's request for relief.

640
00:36:12,600 --> 00:36:15,319
Speaker 2: Here, it was a unanimous ruling by a panel of

641
00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:18,320
Speaker 2: two Obama appointees and one Trump appointee.

642
00:36:18,480 --> 00:36:21,000
Speaker 6: That's correct. It was a percurium ruling, noicense.

643
00:36:21,360 --> 00:36:24,120
Speaker 2: Cooper ordered Trump's name to come down. They took his

644
00:36:24,239 --> 00:36:25,680
Speaker 2: name down, but then they put.

645
00:36:25,560 --> 00:36:26,160
Speaker 3: Up a tarp.

646
00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:29,200
Speaker 6: That's correct. This fight is not quite yet over.

647
00:36:30,160 --> 00:36:34,799
Speaker 5: They took his name down as requested and filed a

648
00:36:35,040 --> 00:36:37,120
Speaker 5: statement in the court that they had done so, but

649
00:36:37,200 --> 00:36:39,440
Speaker 5: it's been covered up by a tarp and scaffolding.

650
00:36:39,719 --> 00:36:42,000
Speaker 6: So now that issue is getting raised in the lower court.

651
00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:45,480
Speaker 5: Judge Cooper has now said that the government must submit

652
00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:49,160
Speaker 5: some kind of status report do later this month explaining

653
00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:51,640
Speaker 5: the purpose of the tarp. They are daring to do

654
00:36:51,680 --> 00:36:54,359
Speaker 5: some repairs on the center, so perhaps we'll see that

655
00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:57,240
Speaker 5: be an explanation that we've seen the challengers in this case,

656
00:36:57,640 --> 00:37:02,200
Speaker 5: that's Representative Joyce Batty of Ohio raise an eyebrow at

657
00:37:02,239 --> 00:37:05,000
Speaker 5: the use of the tarp and express concerns that perhaps

658
00:37:05,000 --> 00:37:07,840
Speaker 5: it's not actually there for any needed repairs and is

659
00:37:07,880 --> 00:37:10,279
Speaker 5: just there to cover the name. So we'll certainly have

660
00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:13,040
Speaker 5: to see what explanation the government provides when they submit

661
00:37:13,120 --> 00:37:13,840
Speaker 5: that report.

662
00:37:14,040 --> 00:37:17,480
Speaker 2: She called it in papers an act of petty defiance

663
00:37:17,560 --> 00:37:23,600
Speaker 2: to massage broken egos. Also, they had planned to close

664
00:37:23,640 --> 00:37:27,399
Speaker 2: the Kennedy Center for two years for renovations. Where does

665
00:37:27,440 --> 00:37:28,040
Speaker 2: that stand?

666
00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:31,120
Speaker 5: That was the other element of Judge Cooper's ruling. In

667
00:37:31,120 --> 00:37:34,759
Speaker 5: addition to the renaming. He blocked board vote that had

668
00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:37,759
Speaker 5: been to, like as you mentioned, close the center completely

669
00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:41,840
Speaker 5: for two years during renovations. He essentially found that the

670
00:37:41,840 --> 00:37:45,239
Speaker 5: board had not had the evidence presented before it to

671
00:37:45,239 --> 00:37:47,480
Speaker 5: have made a reasoned decision, that it was essentially a

672
00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:51,040
Speaker 5: predetermined outcome, and so he said basically that they have

673
00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:52,799
Speaker 5: to go back to the drawing board. It's not that

674
00:37:52,840 --> 00:37:55,120
Speaker 5: they can't later decide, hey, we do actually think it

675
00:37:55,160 --> 00:37:58,279
Speaker 5: makes sense to close this while we do major renovations.

676
00:37:58,360 --> 00:38:01,160
Speaker 5: It's that they have to have considered all the options,

677
00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:04,600
Speaker 5: had more materials presented before them. So they're going to

678
00:38:04,640 --> 00:38:07,080
Speaker 5: have to go back and eventually vote on this.

679
00:38:07,160 --> 00:38:07,440
Speaker 6: Again.

680
00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:10,680
Speaker 5: We've seen in the latest status report in June, government

681
00:38:10,719 --> 00:38:12,640
Speaker 5: said that they're going to present the board with a

682
00:38:12,640 --> 00:38:16,680
Speaker 5: couple of different options regarding a longer closure, a partial closure,

683
00:38:17,160 --> 00:38:19,600
Speaker 5: no closure, at all, so they'll have the opportunity to

684
00:38:19,640 --> 00:38:20,480
Speaker 5: consider that again.

685
00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:25,960
Speaker 2: So this is another loss for Trump over his efforts

686
00:38:26,040 --> 00:38:31,799
Speaker 2: to change or renovate Washington's landmark. So just remind us,

687
00:38:31,880 --> 00:38:34,479
Speaker 2: I mean the ballroom is the one that stands out.

688
00:38:34,880 --> 00:38:36,759
Speaker 2: Is work proceeding on the ballroom.

689
00:38:37,120 --> 00:38:39,120
Speaker 6: Work has been allowed to proceed on the ballroom.

690
00:38:39,320 --> 00:38:41,880
Speaker 5: The d C Circuit did grant stay in that case,

691
00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:45,360
Speaker 5: and as construction has continued, but it's currently on appeal

692
00:38:45,360 --> 00:38:47,880
Speaker 5: on the merit. So we are waiting for the appeals

693
00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:49,719
Speaker 5: court to decide it on the legal question.

694
00:38:50,400 --> 00:38:53,800
Speaker 2: And what about the arch that he wants to put.

695
00:38:53,719 --> 00:38:56,400
Speaker 6: Up, Well, that one's a little more TVD.

696
00:38:57,760 --> 00:38:59,840
Speaker 5: We haven't seen them break round, and we saw the

697
00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:02,239
Speaker 5: judge in that case when she had hearing on it

698
00:39:02,280 --> 00:39:04,799
Speaker 5: earlier this year express concerns like, hey, I don't want

699
00:39:04,800 --> 00:39:07,440
Speaker 5: to wake up to bulldozers here on this art. So

700
00:39:07,600 --> 00:39:09,560
Speaker 5: that one is, you know, kind of on hold of

701
00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:12,879
Speaker 5: it in the lower court. And we haven't seen construction yet.

702
00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:15,120
Speaker 5: I'm sure if we do the plaineiffs in that case,

703
00:39:15,120 --> 00:39:16,560
Speaker 5: we'll come stry back to court.

704
00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:21,040
Speaker 2: Let's turn now to the Lincoln Memorial, reflecting Pool, the

705
00:39:21,080 --> 00:39:24,520
Speaker 2: former Olympian who's been charged with a felony by the

706
00:39:24,600 --> 00:39:29,360
Speaker 2: DCUs Attorney's Office for alleged vandalism of the pool, was

707
00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:30,200
Speaker 2: in court.

708
00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:33,360
Speaker 5: On Wednesday morning and DC Superior Court David Hearn, the

709
00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:37,080
Speaker 5: Olympic canoeist who was charged with defacing the lining of

710
00:39:37,120 --> 00:39:38,600
Speaker 5: the pool, was arranged.

711
00:39:38,640 --> 00:39:39,760
Speaker 6: He's pleaded not guilty.

712
00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:46,200
Speaker 2: And are there any lawsuits still going on over Trump's repainting,

713
00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:48,040
Speaker 2: relining whatever it is of the pool?

714
00:39:48,719 --> 00:39:51,839
Speaker 5: It was challenged and actually is still being challenged. They

715
00:39:51,840 --> 00:39:54,680
Speaker 5: had made an initial request to a DC federal judge

716
00:39:54,680 --> 00:39:58,319
Speaker 5: to block the you know, we coloring of the of

717
00:39:58,360 --> 00:39:58,680
Speaker 5: the pool.

718
00:39:58,719 --> 00:39:59,680
Speaker 6: I don't want to stay painting.

719
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:03,480
Speaker 5: It's not literally paint, but the relining of the reflecting pool.

720
00:40:03,560 --> 00:40:06,680
Speaker 5: The judge didn't issue a ruling really in either way

721
00:40:06,760 --> 00:40:09,400
Speaker 5: in time, and then essentially it was done, so it

722
00:40:09,440 --> 00:40:11,640
Speaker 5: was like a fat of complete So at that point

723
00:40:11,680 --> 00:40:14,760
Speaker 5: they kind of had said, you know, obviously this is done,

724
00:40:14,800 --> 00:40:17,000
Speaker 5: but they still had express an interest in proceeding to

725
00:40:17,040 --> 00:40:19,520
Speaker 5: the merits of this. Did the administration have the legal

726
00:40:19,520 --> 00:40:23,440
Speaker 5: authority to do what it did without going through review processes?

727
00:40:23,480 --> 00:40:25,840
Speaker 5: And that's been really the core of nearly all of

728
00:40:25,880 --> 00:40:29,360
Speaker 5: these challenges to Trump's different efforts to build things or

729
00:40:29,440 --> 00:40:31,560
Speaker 5: change things in DC. When he's talking about I want

730
00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:34,240
Speaker 5: to build a monument, I want to paint this building,

731
00:40:34,280 --> 00:40:36,240
Speaker 5: I want to change the color of the reflecting pool,

732
00:40:36,320 --> 00:40:39,640
Speaker 5: build a new ballroom. Did he go through the correct processes?

733
00:40:39,680 --> 00:40:44,919
Speaker 5: These are environmental reviews, historic preservation reviews, consultation requirements, things

734
00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:49,080
Speaker 5: like that that are legally required for certain types of

735
00:40:49,080 --> 00:40:51,600
Speaker 5: buildings in the district of Columbia as our nation's capital.

736
00:40:52,080 --> 00:40:53,960
Speaker 5: And so that's been really out the crux of these

737
00:40:54,000 --> 00:40:56,160
Speaker 5: cases or what are their obligations here?

738
00:40:56,239 --> 00:40:59,080
Speaker 6: Did they satisfy them? Were they required to do more?

739
00:40:59,200 --> 00:41:01,480
Speaker 5: And then there's also the secondary question when it comes

740
00:41:01,520 --> 00:41:04,400
Speaker 5: to buildings and renovations that I've already been made. Is

741
00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:06,440
Speaker 5: there anything a court can do? So these are all

742
00:41:06,520 --> 00:41:08,239
Speaker 5: cases that we're going to see play out in the

743
00:41:08,280 --> 00:41:12,280
Speaker 5: next year, and you know see how DC's skyline is affected.

744
00:41:12,760 --> 00:41:15,640
Speaker 2: I mean, except for the arch. The problem is that

745
00:41:15,680 --> 00:41:19,040
Speaker 2: he acts first and the ballroom came down, as we've

746
00:41:19,080 --> 00:41:22,440
Speaker 2: discussed before, so quickly. But the east wing is down,

747
00:41:22,560 --> 00:41:25,520
Speaker 2: so I mean, what now, what are they looking for

748
00:41:25,560 --> 00:41:27,560
Speaker 2: there since the east wing is already down.

749
00:41:27,640 --> 00:41:30,399
Speaker 5: Now that was a huge aspect of the d C

750
00:41:30,400 --> 00:41:32,879
Speaker 5: Circuit Oral arguments in the White House Ballroom case, which

751
00:41:32,880 --> 00:41:35,360
Speaker 5: were held in early June, was this idea of what

752
00:41:35,560 --> 00:41:38,840
Speaker 5: courts do they ever have authority to intervene it anywhere

753
00:41:38,840 --> 00:41:42,000
Speaker 5: in this process. The government was essentially arguing that given

754
00:41:42,040 --> 00:41:44,880
Speaker 5: that construction had begun, it would just be you know,

755
00:41:44,960 --> 00:41:46,799
Speaker 5: too harmful for them, and for a court to step

756
00:41:46,840 --> 00:41:48,960
Speaker 5: in at this point, you know, the balance of equities,

757
00:41:49,000 --> 00:41:50,719
Speaker 5: as they say in court, was just going to be

758
00:41:50,800 --> 00:41:51,359
Speaker 5: on their side.

759
00:41:51,360 --> 00:41:52,759
Speaker 6: They were going to be more hurt.

760
00:41:52,960 --> 00:41:55,640
Speaker 5: And the plainiffs obviously are arguing in that case that

761
00:41:55,640 --> 00:41:58,200
Speaker 5: that's a you know, injury of their own making. But

762
00:41:58,239 --> 00:42:00,320
Speaker 5: it was interesting to see how far the govern was

763
00:42:00,320 --> 00:42:03,279
Speaker 5: willing to take that. They had even argued that they could,

764
00:42:03,320 --> 00:42:05,600
Speaker 5: you know, knock down the statue of liberty, you know,

765
00:42:05,800 --> 00:42:08,759
Speaker 5: without warning, and that a court couldn't step in. So

766
00:42:08,880 --> 00:42:11,000
Speaker 5: I think that has been a really interesting line of

767
00:42:11,080 --> 00:42:14,200
Speaker 5: argument that we've seen from this administration, that you know,

768
00:42:14,360 --> 00:42:18,840
Speaker 5: if they have begun a project, courts can't intervene. And certainly,

769
00:42:18,840 --> 00:42:21,319
Speaker 5: I think what happened with the Ballroom is something that

770
00:42:21,400 --> 00:42:23,879
Speaker 5: looms over all of these cases, and really loomed over

771
00:42:23,920 --> 00:42:26,800
Speaker 5: the Triumphal Arch case. When Trump was posting pictures of

772
00:42:26,840 --> 00:42:29,400
Speaker 5: building an arch was like and that's as I mentioned earlier,

773
00:42:29,440 --> 00:42:31,279
Speaker 5: what you know, Judge ty and Chuckkin in that case

774
00:42:31,360 --> 00:42:32,640
Speaker 5: was what am I going to wake up to?

775
00:42:32,640 --> 00:42:33,319
Speaker 6: Bulldozers?

776
00:42:33,360 --> 00:42:35,279
Speaker 5: And I think that's just a concern that that weighs

777
00:42:35,320 --> 00:42:37,480
Speaker 5: over all of these all of these cases.

778
00:42:37,280 --> 00:42:39,840
Speaker 2: They've been reguards on the statue of liberty. I guess

779
00:42:40,040 --> 00:42:42,880
Speaker 2: let's turn to the Supreme Court for a moment. Justices

780
00:42:42,920 --> 00:42:46,880
Speaker 2: Elena Kagan and Amy Cony Barrett are going to testify

781
00:42:47,040 --> 00:42:51,040
Speaker 2: before congressional panels next week about the Court's budget. I

782
00:42:51,080 --> 00:42:56,880
Speaker 2: remember seeing Kagan and Justice Samuel Alito testify about the

783
00:42:56,920 --> 00:42:59,840
Speaker 2: budget years ago, but they haven't done that in the

784
00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:01,120
Speaker 2: long time, right.

785
00:43:01,480 --> 00:43:01,879
Speaker 6: That's right.

786
00:43:01,880 --> 00:43:04,560
Speaker 5: The last time justices appeared on the Hill to testify

787
00:43:04,560 --> 00:43:06,360
Speaker 5: about the budget was in twenty nineteen.

788
00:43:06,600 --> 00:43:09,239
Speaker 2: Did they give a reason as to why they decided

789
00:43:09,320 --> 00:43:13,480
Speaker 2: to testify this year? And I notice again it's one

790
00:43:13,520 --> 00:43:18,759
Speaker 2: Democratic appointee and one Republican appointee, so a bipartisan appearance.

791
00:43:19,400 --> 00:43:22,400
Speaker 5: A top Democratic appropriator had indicated back in the spring

792
00:43:22,480 --> 00:43:25,759
Speaker 5: that she would like to see the justices or you know,

793
00:43:25,800 --> 00:43:27,879
Speaker 5: someone from the Supreme Court talk a little bit about

794
00:43:27,880 --> 00:43:28,320
Speaker 5: the budget.

795
00:43:28,360 --> 00:43:29,680
Speaker 6: I mean on the Hill.

796
00:43:29,760 --> 00:43:32,400
Speaker 5: You know, Congress decides how much funding different parts of

797
00:43:32,440 --> 00:43:36,640
Speaker 5: the government get, and it's generally standard practice that representatives

798
00:43:36,680 --> 00:43:39,080
Speaker 5: from an agency being funded would come to the Hill

799
00:43:39,120 --> 00:43:41,799
Speaker 5: and justify the amount of money they're asking for. So

800
00:43:41,880 --> 00:43:43,640
Speaker 5: the Supreme Court isn't a bit of a unique posture

801
00:43:43,680 --> 00:43:46,120
Speaker 5: that they've been asking for increasingly more money in recent

802
00:43:46,239 --> 00:43:50,120
Speaker 5: years not necessarily unjustified. There are definitely legitimate security concerns

803
00:43:50,120 --> 00:43:52,799
Speaker 5: that the Court has been dealing with that absolutely might

804
00:43:52,840 --> 00:43:55,799
Speaker 5: merit increase funding, but they haven't had to come and

805
00:43:55,920 --> 00:43:58,200
Speaker 5: you know, testify publicly about it. Certainly they may have

806
00:43:58,239 --> 00:44:00,680
Speaker 5: been having closed door meetings, but I think it'll be

807
00:44:00,800 --> 00:44:02,839
Speaker 5: very interesting for the public to get to hear from

808
00:44:02,880 --> 00:44:05,600
Speaker 5: the justices publicly in that way on their budget, on

809
00:44:05,640 --> 00:44:08,600
Speaker 5: their resource needs for the first time in seven years.

810
00:44:08,800 --> 00:44:11,759
Speaker 2: I know I'll be watching. Thanks so much, Suzanne. That's

811
00:44:11,800 --> 00:44:15,080
Speaker 2: Bloomberg Law Reporter Suzanne Monnac, and that's it for this

812
00:44:15,200 --> 00:44:17,920
Speaker 2: edition of the Bloomberg Law Show. Remember you can always

813
00:44:17,960 --> 00:44:20,880
Speaker 2: get the latest legal news on our Bloomberg Law podcast.

814
00:44:21,160 --> 00:44:24,200
Speaker 2: You can find them on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and at

815
00:44:24,360 --> 00:44:29,360
Speaker 2: www dot Bloomberg dot com slash podcast Slash Law, and

816
00:44:29,440 --> 00:44:32,520
Speaker 2: remember to tune into The Bloomberg Law Show every weeknight

817
00:44:32,600 --> 00:44:36,040
Speaker 2: at ten pm Wall Street Time. I'm June Grosso and

818
00:44:36,120 --> 00:44:37,560
Speaker 2: you're listening to Bloomberg