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Speaker 1: The medical device maker Massimo, has accused Apple of copying

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Speaker 1: patented technology for measuring blood oxygen levels that they used

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Speaker 1: in their smart watch.

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Speaker 2: Joining us now Jo Kiani.

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Speaker 1: He's the founder and chairman and CEO of Massimo, and

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Speaker 1: it it's great to have some time with you, Joe.

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Speaker 1: And look, will anything has Apple in any way turned

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Speaker 1: to you tried to be making any sort of well, agreement,

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Speaker 1: negotiate some sort of settlement here?

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Speaker 3: No, No, they haven't.

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Speaker 4: Ever since twenty thirteen when they contacted me and said

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Speaker 4: we're the platinum of non invasive monitoring. They want us

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Speaker 4: to go in meet with them because they want to

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Speaker 4: integrate our technology. We have not heard from them and

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Speaker 4: said they ended up recruiting twenty five of my engineers,

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Speaker 4: including our chief medical officer and CTO from a spinoff company.

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Speaker 4: And this is not an accidental infringement. This is a

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Speaker 4: deliberate the taking of our intellectual property.

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Speaker 2: You've spent millions to take on Apple. Well, is this.

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Speaker 1: Because of your business, because of what you think ultimately

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Speaker 1: you could win out in terms of them being forced

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Speaker 1: to pay you for the use of.

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Speaker 2: Your technology or to settle or is this something bigger?

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Speaker 3: Well, first of all.

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Speaker 4: I'm glad the world can now see where the true

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Speaker 4: inventors and creators of this technology. We want to actually

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Speaker 4: let you know that by banning the Apple Watch with

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Speaker 4: SBO two ely there's no issue because Apples and internal

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Speaker 4: documents that we saw in court showed that they knew

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Speaker 4: the product wasn't good enough to be used medically, and

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Speaker 4: they didn't even seek FDA clearance because of that. Their

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Speaker 4: own testing showed they got two measurements a day on

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Speaker 4: thirty seven percent of the people.

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Speaker 3: That's it.

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Speaker 4: We get over seventy thousand measurements a day on everyone.

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Speaker 4: And they pushed out anyway because as their emails showed,

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Speaker 4: they thought, and the chaos of COVID, this is their quotation,

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Speaker 4: they could get market share away from fitbit. So no

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Speaker 4: why we sue them, because this is our intellectual proper.

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Speaker 4: We have our own product I'm showing here, and we

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Speaker 4: have been in pulsarc symmetry business for thirty five years,

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Speaker 4: not only now in the consumers but hospitals. In fact,

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Speaker 4: we just got FDA clearance for a product we call Stork,

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Speaker 4: which is a baby monitor to help parents monitor their

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Speaker 4: baby's pulse symmetry when they're not next.

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Speaker 2: To them now.

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Speaker 1: An Apple spokesman, Woman Joe, has said that the company

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Speaker 1: is working on submitting workarounds in the US to the

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Speaker 1: Customers Agency, and that's of course in charge of actually

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Speaker 1: approving changes to get a product back in the market.

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Speaker 1: But do you think the product that you just showed us,

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Speaker 1: your product could take any market share here?

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Speaker 4: Absolutely, we are focusing from hospital to home right now

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Speaker 4: with this product, but there's a consumer version of that

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Speaker 4: product that we're going to be introducing here shortly. This

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Speaker 4: is the freedom watch that has all of our bio

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Speaker 4: sensing capability that we have in these chips that we

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Speaker 4: put on the back of these watches, and with our

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Speaker 4: distribution channel, which is about twenty thousand locations, with their

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Speaker 4: near recent acquisition we made of Sound United, which is

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Speaker 4: the owners of Bowers and Wilkins. Then in the Morans,

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Speaker 4: we hope to pick a good market share for people

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Speaker 4: that really care about pulse oxymmetry, people with chronic illnesses.

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Speaker 4: About a third of the population that buyers these watchers

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Speaker 4: have chronic illnesses and they will benefit from a serious,

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Speaker 4: accurate product.

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Speaker 3: Joe.

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Speaker 1: Ultimately, what could have been done to stop this? Obviously

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Speaker 1: Apple could have come to and bought and license the technology.

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Speaker 1: But when ultimately big tech companies or any technology companies

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Speaker 1: takes talent, takes employees, well, that's kind of just the

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Speaker 1: way in which business is done. What do you think,

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Speaker 1: if anything you could have done to stop your CTO,

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Speaker 1: your chief medical officer from leaving.

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Speaker 4: Well, first of all, not every company does this. Apple

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Speaker 4: is the biggest company, the most powerful company. They could

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Speaker 4: be an example of how to do things right and

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Speaker 4: do things well.

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Speaker 3: They didn't have.

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Speaker 4: To steal our people. We could have worked with them.

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Speaker 4: But secondly, you know, this whole ITC case, Apple could

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Speaker 4: have not been even under their jurisdiction if they made

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Speaker 4: these watches in the USA. The fact that they still haven't,

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Speaker 4: I don't know it says something about their relationship with China.

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Speaker 4: This could have been averted for them. Now, ultimately, we're

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Speaker 4: suing them in the California and Delaware courts for PAN infringement,

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Speaker 4: and if we went there, we'll get an injunction regardless

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Speaker 4: where they manufactured. But this ICC case could have been

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Speaker 4: averted by them by just making it here, and they've

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Speaker 4: refused to do it.

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Speaker 3: We make it here, We make all of.

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Speaker 4: Our sensors in New Hampshire, hundreds of millions of LEDs

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Speaker 4: and detectors. We bring them here to Irvine and we

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Speaker 4: do the final manufacturing. So why they can't make it

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Speaker 4: here I don't understand.

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Speaker 2: Would you settle, Joe?

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Speaker 4: The short answer is yes, despite their leadership doing some

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Speaker 4: of the things they've done to us, and not just Massimal,

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Speaker 4: but other smaller companies that they sherlocked, or they do

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Speaker 4: efficient infringement to for better men of people and our

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Speaker 4: mutual shareholders. I put out the Olive branch on one

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Speaker 4: of these news programs that I would work with them

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Speaker 4: to improve their product, or they can even put these

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Speaker 4: chips behind their product.

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Speaker 3: But they haven't called. It takes two to tanglem.

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Speaker 2: And it takes the right price point.

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Speaker 1: What sort of dollar amount would be the right from

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Speaker 1: a fijuciary duty and responsibility perspective from your part, Joe.

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Speaker 3: Well, they haven't even asked. We haven't.

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Speaker 2: I mean they're a starting number. Say I'm Apple on

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Speaker 2: the phone.

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Speaker 3: Oh come on, I'm not negotiating with you on TV.

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Speaker 4: No, there needs to be an honest dialogue. There needs

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Speaker 4: to be an apology. These guys have been caught with

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Speaker 4: their hands and the cookie jar. And instead of being

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Speaker 4: embarrassed and doing the right thing, they're blaming everybody in

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Speaker 4: their fighting, everybody, you know. In twenty twelve, when they

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Speaker 4: decided to make the watch, they decided the most important

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Speaker 4: feature was Paul socks.

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Speaker 3: But they couldn't do it.

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Speaker 4: So they created a project called Rover to see who

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Speaker 4: can They found fifty companies, and in their own internal

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Speaker 4: documents they said there are two stand up companies, Massimo

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Speaker 4: and Circle Corps, both run by Joe Kiani. They went

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Speaker 4: to Tim Cook and said we should buy them just

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Speaker 4: to get Joe let alone all that technology, because they

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Speaker 4: called me to see jobs of the healthcare industry. But

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Speaker 4: Tim Cook said, no, you get the same result by

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Speaker 4: smart recruiting.

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Speaker 3: So what do they do?

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Speaker 4: I was paying my people ninety eight percentile. It's not

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Speaker 4: like I don't pay our people. Well, I believe in them.

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Speaker 4: They began doubling their salaries and bonuses.

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Speaker 3: Some of them.

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Speaker 4: They gave millions of dollars in RSUs to get them.

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Speaker 4: Some in unlabeled buildings couple of blocks from me for

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Speaker 4: those who didn't want to move to northern California.

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Speaker 3: This is not normal business.

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Speaker 1: We will put that to Apple. Thus far, of course,

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Speaker 1: Apple have said that they're looking for a workaround. Could

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Speaker 1: they fix us with software?

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Speaker 4: First of all, with software, I don't think that could work.

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Speaker 4: It shouldn't because our patents are not about the software.

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Speaker 4: It's about the hardware with the software. But they could

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Speaker 4: do a lot of things differently. Maybe it's time they

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Speaker 4: think different or maybe they act different.

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Speaker 2: What about the administration? Have they been in touch? Are

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Speaker 2: they looking for a different behavior?

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Speaker 3: Well, I believe so.

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Speaker 4: You know, the administration has been critical of the top

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Speaker 4: four tech company saying they're stepping on smaller arrivals and

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Speaker 4: they're going to try to defend that. So I don't

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Speaker 4: expect the administration to step in here. And every time

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Speaker 4: Apple contacts them, I guess by law they have to

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Speaker 4: call us.

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Speaker 3: To get our response.

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Speaker 4: So yes, we've been in contact with them, and we

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Speaker 4: don't think they will intervene. I think their recent stunt

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Speaker 4: to pull the products off the market a few days

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Speaker 4: earlier than the ITC decided it should be pulled off

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Speaker 4: the market, they're trying to get the public, like to

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Speaker 4: force the Biden administration to do something they don't think

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Speaker 4: they should do.

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Speaker 3: But I don't think it's going to work.

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Speaker 2: Joki, it's fascinating talking to you.

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Speaker 1: Please, you're not going to negotiate with me on TV,

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Speaker 1: but when or if you do, indeed negotiate with Apple,

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Speaker 1: you let us know.

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Speaker 2: Please much you want me to do jo and Massimo

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Speaker 2: stay well. Thank you for your time today. The CEO there,