1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:03,440 Speaker 1: Hi, Steve Fishman here, creator of The Burden as well 2 00:00:03,520 --> 00:00:06,680 Speaker 1: as the number one true crime podcast, My Friend The 3 00:00:06,760 --> 00:00:09,640 Speaker 1: Serial Killer. For those of you who liked The Burden, 4 00:00:09,920 --> 00:00:14,560 Speaker 1: I have good news. Season two starts August seventh. It's 5 00:00:14,600 --> 00:00:18,720 Speaker 1: a series called The Burden Empire on Blood and it's 6 00:00:18,760 --> 00:00:22,400 Speaker 1: the director's cut of the true crime classic Empire on Blood, 7 00:00:22,520 --> 00:00:26,000 Speaker 1: which reached number one on the charts when it debuted 8 00:00:26,040 --> 00:00:29,600 Speaker 1: half a dozen years ago. Then the fat cat funders 9 00:00:29,640 --> 00:00:33,400 Speaker 1: abandon it. I wrangled it back and now I'm thrilled 10 00:00:33,440 --> 00:00:35,440 Speaker 1: to share this story of a man who fought the 11 00:00:35,520 --> 00:00:39,760 Speaker 1: law for two decades, fought against the Bronx's top homicide 12 00:00:39,800 --> 00:00:44,160 Speaker 1: prosecutor and a detective sometimes known as the Louis Scarcela 13 00:00:44,240 --> 00:00:48,159 Speaker 1: of the Bronx. It's all coming to you August seventh, 14 00:00:48,560 --> 00:00:51,200 Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts. 15 00:00:52,760 --> 00:00:56,920 Speaker 2: Previously on The Burden, he went. 16 00:00:56,800 --> 00:00:58,560 Speaker 3: In the ice bed, he went in the ocean with 17 00:00:58,720 --> 00:01:04,800 Speaker 3: me and past the task, right, that's the task. I 18 00:01:05,000 --> 00:01:09,280 Speaker 3: was a highly decorated detective. They say I had three 19 00:01:09,360 --> 00:01:17,440 Speaker 3: rooms full of metal citations, plaques. I burned everything. I 20 00:01:17,440 --> 00:01:18,319 Speaker 3: want no part of it. 21 00:01:19,319 --> 00:01:22,120 Speaker 4: Just because the police said it doesn't make it true. 22 00:01:22,360 --> 00:01:26,119 Speaker 3: You know, just because the prosecutor said it doesn't mean 23 00:01:26,160 --> 00:01:29,480 Speaker 3: that they were right. I am the protector of these people. 24 00:01:29,840 --> 00:01:33,000 Speaker 3: I am the guardian that they need. Get the fuck 25 00:01:33,040 --> 00:01:33,600 Speaker 3: out of my way. 26 00:01:34,200 --> 00:01:35,240 Speaker 5: This guy is a. 27 00:01:35,160 --> 00:01:38,320 Speaker 6: Piece of shit, but he gets to run around like 28 00:01:38,480 --> 00:01:42,679 Speaker 6: he's gone. 29 00:01:45,160 --> 00:01:47,840 Speaker 3: When you get into things like this, everybody tells you 30 00:01:47,880 --> 00:01:50,720 Speaker 3: don't do a podcast, but they're gonna screw you. They're 31 00:01:50,760 --> 00:01:55,120 Speaker 3: gonna screw you. They're gonna screw you. Well, I just 32 00:01:55,240 --> 00:01:57,240 Speaker 3: know people very well, and I read them and I know. 33 00:01:57,560 --> 00:01:59,760 Speaker 3: I just know people, and I know everything from the 34 00:02:00,280 --> 00:02:04,600 Speaker 3: to you guys, to everybody. It's no good to know 35 00:02:04,680 --> 00:02:07,320 Speaker 3: everything was you know, the good, the bad, and the ugly. 36 00:02:07,360 --> 00:02:10,760 Speaker 3: And sometimes it's figured that one out. But I do 37 00:02:10,919 --> 00:02:15,040 Speaker 3: know everything. What did you read in me? Like that 38 00:02:15,120 --> 00:02:20,640 Speaker 3: first time we met? You remember right right right? Yes, 39 00:02:20,760 --> 00:02:26,720 Speaker 3: now you're I did not like you. I remember I 40 00:02:26,800 --> 00:02:30,600 Speaker 3: was I was cooking onions and I was talking to you, 41 00:02:30,639 --> 00:02:32,760 Speaker 3: and it was I was sitting on top of the 42 00:02:32,800 --> 00:02:35,120 Speaker 3: count the cooking the onions, and I was on the 43 00:02:35,160 --> 00:02:36,560 Speaker 3: phone with you, and I hung up and I was 44 00:02:36,880 --> 00:02:39,359 Speaker 3: thinking about it, and I said, Okay, you got to 45 00:02:39,360 --> 00:02:42,720 Speaker 3: put your trust in somebody. And even though it's so different. 46 00:02:43,040 --> 00:02:45,040 Speaker 3: We didn't. We didn't grow up on the same block. 47 00:02:45,800 --> 00:02:51,680 Speaker 3: I grew to love you. Wow Wow, Well I'm Italian. 48 00:02:58,960 --> 00:03:01,960 Speaker 1: Luis Garsella has spent the past decade trying to clear 49 00:03:02,000 --> 00:03:04,440 Speaker 1: his name, trying to get people to believe that he 50 00:03:04,480 --> 00:03:09,040 Speaker 1: didn't frame anyone, that he never coerced a confession. If 51 00:03:09,040 --> 00:03:12,040 Speaker 1: he could, he would go door to door trying to 52 00:03:12,080 --> 00:03:16,640 Speaker 1: convince each and every one of us that he's a 53 00:03:16,800 --> 00:03:17,639 Speaker 1: very good person. 54 00:03:19,000 --> 00:03:22,960 Speaker 4: But louis up against it. The media has rendered its verdict. 55 00:03:23,680 --> 00:03:28,960 Speaker 4: Disgraced detective, say the headlines. Even the Brooklyn District Attorney's 56 00:03:29,000 --> 00:03:32,520 Speaker 4: office has turned on him. For years, they said he 57 00:03:32,600 --> 00:03:37,520 Speaker 4: did nothing wrong. Now they too are blaming his police 58 00:03:37,520 --> 00:03:39,280 Speaker 4: work for wrongful conviction. 59 00:03:41,000 --> 00:03:41,680 Speaker 2: So here we are. 60 00:03:42,840 --> 00:03:47,280 Speaker 4: We spent hours and hours talking to Scarcela, and as 61 00:03:47,320 --> 00:03:49,720 Speaker 4: you know, we've spent about as much time talking to 62 00:03:49,800 --> 00:03:53,600 Speaker 4: the people he helped put away. I'm talking about Shabaka Shakur, 63 00:03:54,280 --> 00:04:00,680 Speaker 4: Robert Hill, Nelson Cruz, and of course his nemesis, Eric Hamilton. 64 00:04:03,120 --> 00:04:08,440 Speaker 1: And after all those conversations, it's time we gotta confront 65 00:04:08,600 --> 00:04:09,520 Speaker 1: Louis Scarcella. 66 00:04:10,720 --> 00:04:16,120 Speaker 2: Louis, he's hoping for redemption, hoping for redemption through. 67 00:04:16,000 --> 00:04:29,440 Speaker 7: Us storm cloud of comments common straight to you. You 68 00:04:29,520 --> 00:04:30,839 Speaker 7: can't run for shelter. 69 00:04:32,040 --> 00:04:33,400 Speaker 2: There's nothing you can't. 70 00:04:33,200 --> 00:04:40,559 Speaker 1: Do from orbit media. This is the burden. I'm Steve 71 00:04:40,600 --> 00:04:53,719 Speaker 1: Fishman and I'm dak Stlan Ross on this episode a reckoning. 72 00:04:55,920 --> 00:04:59,760 Speaker 3: People are gonna have to judge by themselves. Why didn't 73 00:04:59,760 --> 00:05:05,080 Speaker 3: give a ship the pimping? Because they're people and they 74 00:05:05,160 --> 00:05:08,039 Speaker 3: hate me because they think I'm a corrupt cop, which 75 00:05:08,120 --> 00:05:11,200 Speaker 3: I'm the farthest thing from. What more could I do 76 00:05:11,279 --> 00:05:14,880 Speaker 3: than do this podcast with you? You gotta hold old time. 77 00:05:37,080 --> 00:05:39,919 Speaker 1: So I was getting ready for this interview and I 78 00:05:40,040 --> 00:05:41,880 Speaker 1: keep thinking about something. 79 00:05:41,520 --> 00:05:43,120 Speaker 3: That happened a few years back. 80 00:05:44,600 --> 00:05:47,960 Speaker 1: It's at my bar Nerves, you know, the one I 81 00:05:48,040 --> 00:05:51,680 Speaker 1: owned on that dead end block in Brooklyn, which happens 82 00:05:51,680 --> 00:05:56,360 Speaker 1: to me, a block that Luis Scarsella patrolled in some ways. 83 00:05:56,360 --> 00:05:59,840 Speaker 1: That's where this journey starts for me, and in particular 84 00:06:00,279 --> 00:06:05,440 Speaker 1: this one afternoon, which I will never forget, Louis stopped 85 00:06:05,480 --> 00:06:06,000 Speaker 1: by the bar. 86 00:06:07,720 --> 00:06:14,200 Speaker 3: My god, wow, mis enabled it. Wow, it brings back memories. 87 00:06:15,920 --> 00:06:19,400 Speaker 3: And this is where I learned the job. Down the 88 00:06:19,440 --> 00:06:24,200 Speaker 3: block from here, me and my partner Ronnie locked up 89 00:06:24,200 --> 00:06:31,200 Speaker 3: a guy with two guns who killed a couple of people. IRVS. 90 00:06:31,360 --> 00:06:35,720 Speaker 3: Wasn't really Louis kind of place. It's nice. It is 91 00:06:35,760 --> 00:06:45,560 Speaker 3: your typical yuppie bohemian va. I would imagine the majority 92 00:06:45,560 --> 00:06:50,960 Speaker 3: of people coming here did not vote for Trump. It's 93 00:06:50,960 --> 00:06:56,080 Speaker 3: pleasant and I think either you are crazy or got 94 00:06:56,160 --> 00:07:06,000 Speaker 3: big big guyams bar here. I took Louis outside. All right, 95 00:07:06,040 --> 00:07:08,680 Speaker 3: look over my shoulder here, what do you think? I 96 00:07:08,800 --> 00:07:13,720 Speaker 3: see a bunch of probably low level drugs, little dice, 97 00:07:14,240 --> 00:07:17,560 Speaker 3: se low or something like that. Do you see this here? 98 00:07:17,560 --> 00:07:20,840 Speaker 3: Could erupt into anything? Anything right here? Anything can happen. 99 00:07:20,880 --> 00:07:23,560 Speaker 3: This is like atomic energy. You know, anything can happen. 100 00:07:26,480 --> 00:07:32,720 Speaker 1: Atomic energy, Yeah, atomic energy. At the time, I chalked 101 00:07:32,720 --> 00:07:34,680 Speaker 1: this up to a kind of you know, cops view 102 00:07:34,680 --> 00:07:37,960 Speaker 1: of the world. These guys are bad and these guys 103 00:07:38,400 --> 00:07:39,040 Speaker 1: they're okay. 104 00:07:40,520 --> 00:07:45,320 Speaker 3: Let me tell you something. This hasn't changed much. This 105 00:07:45,880 --> 00:07:48,880 Speaker 3: is still the same as I remember. This is getting 106 00:07:48,960 --> 00:07:53,880 Speaker 3: much better. This this little street here, this is a 107 00:07:53,880 --> 00:07:56,920 Speaker 3: seven one precinct. You know what I'm saying. It's Brooklyn, 108 00:07:56,960 --> 00:07:57,880 Speaker 3: and anything can happen. 109 00:08:05,920 --> 00:08:09,280 Speaker 1: One night, I'm with my family at the dinner table 110 00:08:10,320 --> 00:08:14,960 Speaker 1: and there's this citizens alert that flashes on the phone, 111 00:08:15,400 --> 00:08:17,760 Speaker 1: which at first confuses me. 112 00:08:18,480 --> 00:08:23,160 Speaker 3: It's the address of my bar. It says shots fired. 113 00:08:23,880 --> 00:08:26,960 Speaker 8: Citizen app video shows the crime scene last night on 114 00:08:27,040 --> 00:08:30,040 Speaker 8: Beekman Place in Prospect Lefforts Gardens. 115 00:08:30,680 --> 00:08:34,040 Speaker 1: I get the bartender on the phone, and this is 116 00:08:34,040 --> 00:08:38,480 Speaker 1: a guy who's usually very laid back, and I say 117 00:08:38,520 --> 00:08:47,520 Speaker 1: to him, is everything okay? And he says, no, No, 118 00:08:48,360 --> 00:08:55,240 Speaker 1: Mikey was shot. Mikey's like one of our beloved regular customers. 119 00:08:55,840 --> 00:09:00,240 Speaker 1: And I'm standing in the living room and I. 120 00:09:00,280 --> 00:09:01,560 Speaker 3: Just fell to the crown. 121 00:09:02,440 --> 00:09:05,280 Speaker 8: The victim was shot in the neck and pronounced dead 122 00:09:05,280 --> 00:09:08,360 Speaker 8: at King's County Hospital. The searches on for the suspected gunman, 123 00:09:08,559 --> 00:09:10,160 Speaker 8: who took off in a grave an. 124 00:09:11,840 --> 00:09:14,360 Speaker 3: And actually that's the night I decided to close the bar. 125 00:09:24,160 --> 00:09:27,440 Speaker 4: You know, Steve, you wanted to believe Louis was the 126 00:09:27,480 --> 00:09:28,559 Speaker 4: cop the city needed. 127 00:09:29,520 --> 00:09:32,720 Speaker 1: Listen, on that block, it felt like the nineties. It 128 00:09:32,760 --> 00:09:36,280 Speaker 1: felt like the city was falling apart on that block. 129 00:09:37,000 --> 00:09:40,160 Speaker 1: I mean, it's like I was living in Louie's crazy 130 00:09:40,280 --> 00:09:44,560 Speaker 1: world of murder. And after that shooting, that murder at 131 00:09:44,600 --> 00:09:50,080 Speaker 1: my bar, I knew viscerally how fear and anger can 132 00:09:50,280 --> 00:09:56,200 Speaker 1: color your outlook. Yeah, I thought maybe it'd be good 133 00:09:56,240 --> 00:09:58,400 Speaker 1: for a guy nicknamed the Hulk to stop by. 134 00:09:59,400 --> 00:10:03,080 Speaker 3: Maybe he'd put some order into things. 135 00:10:03,120 --> 00:10:06,520 Speaker 1: And so, yeah, I felt at that moment like I 136 00:10:06,640 --> 00:10:09,640 Speaker 1: was open to Louis. I was open to entertain the 137 00:10:09,679 --> 00:10:13,960 Speaker 1: possibility that maybe he was equipped to understand what was 138 00:10:14,120 --> 00:10:16,920 Speaker 1: really going on in a way that a lot of 139 00:10:17,000 --> 00:10:22,080 Speaker 1: us weren't. Me included, he'd understood that block at a glance, 140 00:10:22,640 --> 00:10:27,040 Speaker 1: his instincts had worked. And Yeah, I've taken a journey 141 00:10:27,080 --> 00:10:31,320 Speaker 1: with Louis in these past few years. They've taken me 142 00:10:31,360 --> 00:10:35,640 Speaker 1: to another place. I've got a lot more information now. 143 00:10:36,559 --> 00:10:38,800 Speaker 2: And it sounds like you've got some things to work through. 144 00:10:39,440 --> 00:10:43,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, maybe, And what about you, We've been on this 145 00:10:44,000 --> 00:10:44,720 Speaker 1: journey together. 146 00:10:45,679 --> 00:10:49,800 Speaker 4: My feelings are complicated, and as you known, you've read it, 147 00:10:49,880 --> 00:10:53,880 Speaker 4: you've talked about it. I've had my share of experiences 148 00:10:53,920 --> 00:10:56,559 Speaker 4: with the Cops, ones that I don't like to look 149 00:10:56,600 --> 00:10:59,280 Speaker 4: back on and definitely don't like to think about. And 150 00:10:59,320 --> 00:11:02,240 Speaker 4: so I enter this project at a point in time 151 00:11:02,280 --> 00:11:06,679 Speaker 4: when George Floyd was dominating our consciousness, the way we 152 00:11:06,679 --> 00:11:10,600 Speaker 4: were thinking about the world, about justice, and that all 153 00:11:10,600 --> 00:11:13,559 Speaker 4: felt really personal to me, and it made me feel 154 00:11:13,559 --> 00:11:18,480 Speaker 4: like everything about the Cops I already knew I didn't 155 00:11:18,520 --> 00:11:22,520 Speaker 4: need to know anything more. But time is a tricky 156 00:11:22,559 --> 00:11:25,680 Speaker 4: way of changing us. There's a lot we need to 157 00:11:25,720 --> 00:11:28,719 Speaker 4: ask Louie. Then there are a few things I want 158 00:11:28,720 --> 00:11:31,040 Speaker 4: to tell them. 159 00:11:31,240 --> 00:11:35,360 Speaker 1: Time to get Louis back in the studio. That's in 160 00:11:35,400 --> 00:11:44,600 Speaker 1: a minute. I was thinking, Louis, you remember everything we've 161 00:11:44,600 --> 00:11:47,400 Speaker 1: been through here, Bonya. 162 00:11:46,679 --> 00:11:51,520 Speaker 3: Oh Man, the CrossFit, Jim Vanya looking for Teresa Gomez. 163 00:11:53,360 --> 00:11:56,320 Speaker 3: I was thinking about that. Yes, jumping in the jumping 164 00:11:56,360 --> 00:11:59,400 Speaker 3: in the ocean. So he easing us into this thing, 165 00:11:59,440 --> 00:12:01,880 Speaker 3: and yeah, anything you know his style? I know all 166 00:12:01,920 --> 00:12:04,000 Speaker 3: your styles. I mean, come on, you don't have to 167 00:12:04,000 --> 00:12:04,960 Speaker 3: be a genius to know. 168 00:12:06,880 --> 00:12:09,240 Speaker 1: Here's the situation is Dax and I sit down with 169 00:12:09,320 --> 00:12:13,040 Speaker 1: Louis in a Brooklyn studio. By this point, it's been 170 00:12:13,080 --> 00:12:16,199 Speaker 1: more than a decade since Frenchi's New York Times articles 171 00:12:16,760 --> 00:12:21,320 Speaker 1: changed the Louis Scarcela narrative and made him notorious, more 172 00:12:21,360 --> 00:12:25,360 Speaker 1: than a decade since the DA reopened Louis cases. Of 173 00:12:25,480 --> 00:12:29,760 Speaker 1: the convictions Louis helped secure, over twenty have been vacated. 174 00:12:30,559 --> 00:12:33,000 Speaker 1: The state and city have paid out more than one 175 00:12:33,080 --> 00:12:36,359 Speaker 1: hundred million in settlements, and counting. 176 00:12:36,920 --> 00:12:43,120 Speaker 3: The last ten years affected me badly and it was 177 00:12:43,200 --> 00:12:47,360 Speaker 3: a waste, a complete waste of my life where I 178 00:12:47,400 --> 00:12:49,079 Speaker 3: could have helped other people. And I want to tell 179 00:12:49,120 --> 00:12:52,920 Speaker 3: you something, I had a lot of good in me. 180 00:12:53,840 --> 00:12:58,920 Speaker 3: My own pole club in Great Kills would not hire 181 00:12:59,040 --> 00:13:02,080 Speaker 3: me for ten dollars an hour as a custodian because 182 00:13:02,120 --> 00:13:03,080 Speaker 3: of the bad press. 183 00:13:04,360 --> 00:13:07,160 Speaker 4: Louis is wearing his uniform, a T shirt in this 184 00:13:07,200 --> 00:13:09,960 Speaker 4: one from Surf City, a restaurant he likes in Coney Island. 185 00:13:10,440 --> 00:13:13,760 Speaker 4: He's got those tattoos up and down his arms. One 186 00:13:13,880 --> 00:13:17,760 Speaker 4: is of his father's detective's badge, another of the Wonderwheel 187 00:13:17,800 --> 00:13:18,760 Speaker 4: at Coney Island. 188 00:13:19,800 --> 00:13:23,400 Speaker 1: Louis told us many times that he's escapegoat, that his 189 00:13:23,520 --> 00:13:28,080 Speaker 1: decades of police work were flawless. So we start with 190 00:13:28,120 --> 00:13:32,960 Speaker 1: an obvious question. If he was perfect, why is he 191 00:13:33,040 --> 00:13:34,840 Speaker 1: the focus of so much scorn? 192 00:13:36,360 --> 00:13:37,000 Speaker 2: So why you? 193 00:13:38,000 --> 00:13:42,520 Speaker 3: I'm going to tell you why me. I was one 194 00:13:42,600 --> 00:13:45,960 Speaker 3: of the best detectives in Brooklyn. I looked like a 195 00:13:46,040 --> 00:13:48,760 Speaker 3: detective right out of Central Booking. 196 00:13:49,040 --> 00:13:49,840 Speaker 2: So you fit the part. 197 00:13:50,040 --> 00:13:53,120 Speaker 3: I fit the part. I was the part. 198 00:13:53,920 --> 00:13:57,400 Speaker 1: Louis was the swashbuckling king of the hell. He loved 199 00:13:57,400 --> 00:14:00,520 Speaker 1: the spotlight. He's the cop who went on Doctor Film, 200 00:14:01,160 --> 00:14:04,840 Speaker 1: which turned out to be a crucial moment in his life. 201 00:14:06,040 --> 00:14:08,840 Speaker 3: I'm going to tell you something. In two thousand and seven, 202 00:14:08,880 --> 00:14:13,480 Speaker 3: the Doctor Phil Show contacted Brooklyn District Attorney's office. They said, 203 00:14:13,800 --> 00:14:16,120 Speaker 3: do you have a detective you know who was very 204 00:14:16,120 --> 00:14:19,520 Speaker 3: good at interviewing people. They gave them my name, and 205 00:14:19,600 --> 00:14:21,800 Speaker 3: I flew out there on the Doctor Phil Show and 206 00:14:21,840 --> 00:14:24,040 Speaker 3: I made that statement, Yes, there are no rules, but 207 00:14:24,120 --> 00:14:27,240 Speaker 3: we act within the law, and that blew up. 208 00:14:28,280 --> 00:14:33,080 Speaker 1: Judges cited that sentence as a reason to overturn convictions. 209 00:14:33,680 --> 00:14:36,200 Speaker 2: Do you regret saying that on the Doctor Phil Show? 210 00:14:36,280 --> 00:14:39,760 Speaker 3: You know what, Some people say that was the worst 211 00:14:39,760 --> 00:14:42,560 Speaker 3: mistake I ever made. I don't think so, because I. 212 00:14:42,560 --> 00:14:43,240 Speaker 5: Told the truth. 213 00:14:43,960 --> 00:14:46,880 Speaker 1: You told Doctor Phil a couple things, Okay. One of 214 00:14:46,920 --> 00:14:49,720 Speaker 1: the things you told him is that a detective has 215 00:14:49,800 --> 00:14:52,960 Speaker 1: to have a six or seventh sense, has to be 216 00:14:53,040 --> 00:14:56,040 Speaker 1: able to see into the soul of a person and 217 00:14:56,120 --> 00:14:57,680 Speaker 1: get him to say what you need to say. 218 00:14:58,920 --> 00:15:05,360 Speaker 3: I did say that, and you have to get to 219 00:15:05,440 --> 00:15:09,880 Speaker 3: the truth, and that's what you do. You told people. 220 00:15:10,320 --> 00:15:12,000 Speaker 1: In fact, there were a number of times on the 221 00:15:12,080 --> 00:15:14,920 Speaker 1: job where everybody said no, and I said yes, And 222 00:15:15,000 --> 00:15:17,360 Speaker 1: believe it or not. It came back around and I 223 00:15:17,520 --> 00:15:19,360 Speaker 1: was right, not blowing my own horn. 224 00:15:19,600 --> 00:15:22,960 Speaker 3: It's just fact. Yeah, it's true. You know that sounds crazy, 225 00:15:23,040 --> 00:15:26,320 Speaker 3: it does. You know, it sounds like magic. You see, 226 00:15:26,400 --> 00:15:30,160 Speaker 3: detectives have the biggest egos in the world, the biggest, 227 00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:31,600 Speaker 3: and I guess I was one of them. 228 00:15:32,880 --> 00:15:33,200 Speaker 5: Louis. 229 00:15:33,280 --> 00:15:36,200 Speaker 1: Is just you know, it's like you say something like that, 230 00:15:36,800 --> 00:15:41,520 Speaker 1: you know, never wrong in reading somebody, never wrong in arrest, 231 00:15:41,800 --> 00:15:43,840 Speaker 1: and read never wrong in arrest. 232 00:15:44,320 --> 00:15:47,960 Speaker 3: How can you never make a mistake? I mean you're perfect. No, no, 233 00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:52,560 Speaker 3: I'm far from perfect, and I was far from you know, Steve, Steve, 234 00:15:53,160 --> 00:15:57,640 Speaker 3: let me say this to you. I know my cases. 235 00:15:59,280 --> 00:16:04,840 Speaker 3: Put yourself here, after everything that was said about you 236 00:16:05,400 --> 00:16:10,040 Speaker 3: in the last ten years, put yourself here. I in 237 00:16:10,120 --> 00:16:20,440 Speaker 3: my mind dissected every single case homicide. I humbly say 238 00:16:20,600 --> 00:16:25,400 Speaker 3: to you, if you could tell me that on this case, Louis, 239 00:16:25,400 --> 00:16:29,360 Speaker 3: you're wrong, this person didn't do it. This person did it, 240 00:16:29,560 --> 00:16:34,080 Speaker 3: and his confession to you was wrong. You have to 241 00:16:34,320 --> 00:16:37,320 Speaker 3: prove that to me. Show me a case where there 242 00:16:37,400 --> 00:16:42,000 Speaker 3: was DNA, show me where there's someone else who did 243 00:16:42,040 --> 00:16:45,520 Speaker 3: the crime, and I will be the first one to 244 00:16:45,600 --> 00:16:48,560 Speaker 3: say I did my job. 245 00:16:50,960 --> 00:16:54,160 Speaker 1: Louis says this often he doesn't say anything, just once, 246 00:16:54,600 --> 00:16:58,880 Speaker 1: but hearing it again, this time it got to me, Louis, 247 00:16:59,480 --> 00:17:03,040 Speaker 1: nobody needs to prove to you that another person did 248 00:17:03,080 --> 00:17:07,000 Speaker 1: the crime in order to prove a wrongful conviction. 249 00:17:07,760 --> 00:17:09,119 Speaker 3: That's just false. 250 00:17:10,200 --> 00:17:13,920 Speaker 1: And anyway, Louis adds, it wasn't really up to him. 251 00:17:14,400 --> 00:17:18,840 Speaker 3: I brought every case to the Brooklyn District Attorney's office, 252 00:17:19,119 --> 00:17:23,120 Speaker 3: Teresa Gomez, all the witnesses, they were vetted, and they 253 00:17:23,240 --> 00:17:26,960 Speaker 3: all went along with my arrest They all went along 254 00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:30,240 Speaker 3: with my arrests, and they convicted them. 255 00:17:30,600 --> 00:17:33,000 Speaker 1: When you talk about it, it's like, all right, I'm 256 00:17:33,040 --> 00:17:36,280 Speaker 1: just bringing them fresh meat, uncooked meat, and they're looking 257 00:17:36,320 --> 00:17:38,119 Speaker 1: at it and saying, should I make lunch or should 258 00:17:38,119 --> 00:17:39,160 Speaker 1: I throw it in the garbage. 259 00:17:39,200 --> 00:17:42,080 Speaker 3: I don't know if you're I don't know what sense 260 00:17:42,119 --> 00:17:45,520 Speaker 3: you're trying to make. What it is is this? What 261 00:17:45,560 --> 00:17:51,399 Speaker 3: it is is this. Every detective in Brooklyn gets the case, 262 00:17:52,080 --> 00:17:54,919 Speaker 3: he believes he has enough to arrest the person, and 263 00:17:55,040 --> 00:17:58,639 Speaker 3: district attorneys come to the precinct and they interview who's 264 00:17:58,680 --> 00:18:02,040 Speaker 3: ever there, and they make the decision bring it down. 265 00:18:02,640 --> 00:18:05,240 Speaker 3: He's under arrest for this. But now you bring all 266 00:18:05,320 --> 00:18:09,959 Speaker 3: the witnesses down to the District Attorney's office. Sometimes they 267 00:18:09,960 --> 00:18:12,560 Speaker 3: would say, Louis, no good, you have to do a 268 00:18:12,720 --> 00:18:14,879 Speaker 3: B and C, And I would go out and do 269 00:18:14,960 --> 00:18:18,399 Speaker 3: a B and C. Bring it to them. They bring 270 00:18:18,480 --> 00:18:19,960 Speaker 3: it to the jewelry. 271 00:18:20,359 --> 00:18:22,960 Speaker 4: There's a reason you also get called to trial and 272 00:18:23,040 --> 00:18:25,840 Speaker 4: to call to testify and trials. And that had something 273 00:18:25,880 --> 00:18:29,080 Speaker 4: to do with the fact that you were convincing, compelling 274 00:18:29,560 --> 00:18:33,800 Speaker 4: and also very very credible person. And part of what 275 00:18:33,840 --> 00:18:36,240 Speaker 4: I think that prosecutor knows is that I'm going to 276 00:18:36,320 --> 00:18:39,399 Speaker 4: have the credibility of Louis Garcela in this trial if 277 00:18:39,440 --> 00:18:42,960 Speaker 4: I take this to court, correct as Louis Garcela, first 278 00:18:43,000 --> 00:18:45,920 Speaker 4: grade detective, who's got a huge who's got a reputation, 279 00:18:46,000 --> 00:18:48,679 Speaker 4: credibility and all these other things. Is I'm a prosecutor 280 00:18:48,720 --> 00:18:51,480 Speaker 4: who might even be a little bit green. I'm baking 281 00:18:51,520 --> 00:18:53,800 Speaker 4: a little bit on you. Okay, I'm baking a little 282 00:18:53,800 --> 00:18:54,440 Speaker 4: bit on you too. 283 00:18:54,640 --> 00:18:56,840 Speaker 3: I don't know what to say to you. I don't 284 00:18:56,840 --> 00:19:02,200 Speaker 3: know how to I guess you agree that Luis Scarcela 285 00:19:02,520 --> 00:19:08,760 Speaker 3: is a sociopath and got over on the da Jelies. 286 00:19:09,280 --> 00:19:16,199 Speaker 3: I considered myself a very good detective, I don't know 287 00:19:16,240 --> 00:19:17,040 Speaker 3: what to say to you. 288 00:19:18,440 --> 00:19:21,320 Speaker 4: I'm saying, I want you to just reckon with the 289 00:19:21,359 --> 00:19:24,600 Speaker 4: notion that you are a compelling and credible figure that 290 00:19:24,720 --> 00:19:28,480 Speaker 4: a district attorney might put their own faith in and 291 00:19:28,600 --> 00:19:32,119 Speaker 4: believe that a jury will have some belief in. So 292 00:19:32,240 --> 00:19:34,800 Speaker 4: you can't only say that I just did my job. 293 00:19:35,080 --> 00:19:37,000 Speaker 2: I did my job. I did my job by just 294 00:19:37,040 --> 00:19:37,800 Speaker 2: bringing the case. 295 00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:45,160 Speaker 3: So if you're saying, if you're saying, I put my character, 296 00:19:45,520 --> 00:19:50,000 Speaker 3: my reputation, and my integrity on the line in these 297 00:19:50,040 --> 00:19:56,760 Speaker 3: cases while bringing it to the district attorney, yes, yes, yes. 298 00:20:01,680 --> 00:20:05,080 Speaker 4: Loui's character, reputation, and integrity were pretty much all that 299 00:20:05,119 --> 00:20:09,679 Speaker 4: matter in Shabacas Chakor's murder conviction. Louis remember says he 300 00:20:09,720 --> 00:20:14,840 Speaker 4: took a statement from Schabacca. Sabacca supposedly told him the 301 00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:17,280 Speaker 4: victims deserve to die. 302 00:20:18,480 --> 00:20:22,879 Speaker 1: And remember Sherbacca denies making that statement. He denies making 303 00:20:23,200 --> 00:20:27,920 Speaker 1: any statement at all. To Detective Scarcella, as you said 304 00:20:27,960 --> 00:20:32,160 Speaker 1: in court, it only exists because you know, you say 305 00:20:32,200 --> 00:20:35,320 Speaker 1: it exists. So somebody's going to go in and say, 306 00:20:36,440 --> 00:20:41,359 Speaker 1: you know, maybe Scarsella ad libbed a bit. Scarcella in 307 00:20:41,480 --> 00:20:46,199 Speaker 1: no way ad libbed a bit. I would not know 308 00:20:46,359 --> 00:20:50,320 Speaker 1: how to add lib. I see this problematic that there's 309 00:20:50,400 --> 00:20:53,840 Speaker 1: no other corroboration for this, don't you. I mean, if 310 00:20:53,880 --> 00:20:55,600 Speaker 1: you were in my seat, now you put me in 311 00:20:55,640 --> 00:20:58,360 Speaker 1: your seat. You're in my seat, right. You got one 312 00:20:58,400 --> 00:21:00,880 Speaker 1: guy saying it, am detective. 313 00:21:01,880 --> 00:21:04,640 Speaker 3: I hear what you're saying. You're bringing up something valid. 314 00:21:04,760 --> 00:21:07,600 Speaker 1: Why is there no signs statement? Why is there no video? 315 00:21:07,720 --> 00:21:11,240 Speaker 1: Why is there no witness? You know it seems listen, 316 00:21:11,359 --> 00:21:17,000 Speaker 1: let me just say it seems fishy. Well, twelve jurors 317 00:21:17,440 --> 00:21:26,320 Speaker 1: believed it. Yeah, twelve jurors did believe it. But then 318 00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:30,800 Speaker 1: twelve jurors convicted all of the defendants who have since 319 00:21:30,880 --> 00:21:32,600 Speaker 1: had their cases overturned. 320 00:21:33,920 --> 00:21:37,760 Speaker 4: Back in Louise's heyday, times were frightening. Twelve jurors were 321 00:21:37,800 --> 00:21:41,280 Speaker 4: ready to believe a lot of things, maybe anything told 322 00:21:41,280 --> 00:21:45,080 Speaker 4: to them by a district attorney or a much honored detective. 323 00:21:45,960 --> 00:21:49,520 Speaker 1: For me, of all the cases we've examined, Derek's is 324 00:21:49,560 --> 00:21:50,720 Speaker 1: the most egregious. 325 00:21:51,160 --> 00:21:52,560 Speaker 3: Twelve jurors should. 326 00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:56,959 Speaker 1: Not have found him guilty for the murder of Nathaniel Cash. 327 00:21:57,400 --> 00:22:01,880 Speaker 4: No one has attacked Louise's integrity and his credibility with 328 00:22:01,960 --> 00:22:05,960 Speaker 4: more vigor than Derek. Others who've had their convictions overturn 329 00:22:06,640 --> 00:22:10,280 Speaker 4: Shabaka Chakor, for example, they're determined to never think about 330 00:22:10,320 --> 00:22:11,680 Speaker 4: Scarcella again. 331 00:22:12,040 --> 00:22:12,320 Speaker 2: Ever. 332 00:22:13,440 --> 00:22:16,159 Speaker 4: Derek, on the other hand, thinks about him all the time. 333 00:22:16,760 --> 00:22:20,040 Speaker 4: He'd like to see Scarcela in jail or dead, he says, 334 00:22:20,040 --> 00:22:22,520 Speaker 4: the evidence that he wasn't guilty has been available for 335 00:22:22,600 --> 00:22:28,240 Speaker 4: thirty years, and you know what, He's right, and so 336 00:22:28,320 --> 00:22:30,200 Speaker 4: we need to ask Louis about this. 337 00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:34,399 Speaker 1: I've known for a while that the moment of truth 338 00:22:34,520 --> 00:22:38,959 Speaker 1: was coming, you know, over the years that I've researched 339 00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:43,639 Speaker 1: this story, I'd become something like Louis's confidant when some 340 00:22:43,720 --> 00:22:44,800 Speaker 1: bad news arrived. 341 00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:47,960 Speaker 3: I was his first call. Years ago. 342 00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:51,080 Speaker 1: I'd promised him I would tell his story. I told 343 00:22:51,119 --> 00:22:53,639 Speaker 1: him I'd try to see the world through his eyes. 344 00:22:54,480 --> 00:22:57,439 Speaker 1: Yes he saved lives, Yes he put a lot of 345 00:22:57,560 --> 00:23:02,680 Speaker 1: bad guys away, and yes he was scapegoaded. But I'd 346 00:23:02,720 --> 00:23:07,000 Speaker 1: come to a point where Louis's version of himself, the 347 00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:10,720 Speaker 1: person who could always read people, see into their souls, 348 00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:14,680 Speaker 1: the person who was never wrong, never did wrong, did 349 00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:19,840 Speaker 1: nothing but protect the neighborhood. I just felt that version 350 00:23:19,880 --> 00:23:25,280 Speaker 1: of himself could not stand and with Derek's case, it 351 00:23:25,359 --> 00:23:28,120 Speaker 1: had come to a head for me. How had he 352 00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:35,040 Speaker 1: missed the evidence that Derek wasn't guilty. Why journalism is 353 00:23:35,080 --> 00:23:40,160 Speaker 1: a strange thing. He enter into people's lives, become their confidants, 354 00:23:40,720 --> 00:23:45,120 Speaker 1: you seem like their friends. In the end, my loyalty 355 00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:48,920 Speaker 1: is to the story, even when that feels like a betrayal. 356 00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:58,880 Speaker 3: I had no evil intent. I was just doing my job. 357 00:24:01,119 --> 00:24:03,280 Speaker 4: That's in a minute. 358 00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:14,840 Speaker 1: We start by reviewing some of the facts of Derek 359 00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:15,840 Speaker 1: Hamilton's case. 360 00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:20,040 Speaker 4: Derek was convicted of the murder of Nate Cash on 361 00:24:20,119 --> 00:24:24,119 Speaker 4: the strength of Jule Smith's testimony. 362 00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:30,680 Speaker 1: So reading the transcript in your testimony, he's by the sidewalk, 363 00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:32,119 Speaker 1: pool of his own blood. 364 00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:36,120 Speaker 3: There's some shells on him. Oh, he's by the sidewalk. See, 365 00:24:36,119 --> 00:24:39,000 Speaker 3: I'm going to say he was in the vestibule. Wherever 366 00:24:39,040 --> 00:24:42,520 Speaker 3: he was he was. There's just too many bodies, but whatever, it. 367 00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:45,720 Speaker 1: Was, too many bodies. One of the things about this 368 00:24:47,359 --> 00:24:51,080 Speaker 1: Jewell Smith is the whole case. There's no murder weapon, 369 00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:53,400 Speaker 1: no forensic evidence. 370 00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:59,480 Speaker 3: I remember going to Jewles's apartment. I remember talking to Jewel. 371 00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:04,480 Speaker 3: I remember she identifies him via name or nickname or whatever. 372 00:25:04,560 --> 00:25:07,360 Speaker 3: If I remember, we went into the precinct, We went 373 00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:11,120 Speaker 3: into the robbery unit, and there were books of dozens 374 00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:13,640 Speaker 3: and dozens of pictures. She identified him. 375 00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:18,640 Speaker 4: Remember, Louis brought Jewel Smith to the DA who took 376 00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:22,640 Speaker 4: an audio statement. Jewel said she saw Derek take a gun, 377 00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:26,199 Speaker 4: one gun and shooting it cash in the vestibule of 378 00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:29,560 Speaker 4: his apartment building. And then she said she saw him 379 00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:33,480 Speaker 4: run twenty feet to the sidewalk where he collapsed. 380 00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:40,919 Speaker 3: You must admit that Juell Smith's statement was compelling. What 381 00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:42,400 Speaker 3: do you think of jul Smith's statement? 382 00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:44,800 Speaker 1: Well, we both listened to it and going over it. 383 00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:52,679 Speaker 1: I mean the first listen, very compelling, very detailed, you know, 384 00:25:52,920 --> 00:25:55,840 Speaker 1: lots of things that kind of ring true. 385 00:25:56,000 --> 00:26:01,200 Speaker 3: Okay, okay, what was your impression of it? I heard 386 00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:03,240 Speaker 3: that statement, I said wow. 387 00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:06,600 Speaker 2: And you know what was the wow about it? 388 00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:06,960 Speaker 5: Oh? 389 00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:10,480 Speaker 3: It was she as far as I'm concerned, it was 390 00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:13,119 Speaker 3: she was there and she was telling the truth. 391 00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:17,280 Speaker 1: The Jule Smith statement, as you say, very compelling. When 392 00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:20,560 Speaker 1: you listen to it, it just doesn't hold up. Okay, 393 00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:24,359 Speaker 1: doesn't hold up. She says there was one gun they 394 00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:25,840 Speaker 1: got shot in the vestibule. 395 00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:29,560 Speaker 3: There were two guns. I remember, yeah, I remember. 396 00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:29,879 Speaker 5: Well. 397 00:26:29,920 --> 00:26:33,600 Speaker 3: The thing is this, I did not remember that only 398 00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:37,560 Speaker 3: reading the paper I remember it. I don't remember that 399 00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:38,880 Speaker 3: at the time of the murder. 400 00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:42,000 Speaker 2: You remember it having learned it after the fact. 401 00:26:42,119 --> 00:26:43,320 Speaker 3: I learned it after the fact. 402 00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:45,920 Speaker 1: That no blood splatter in the vestibule. By the way, 403 00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:49,639 Speaker 1: how do you know we read that in the cru report. 404 00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:51,679 Speaker 3: Okay, right, yes. 405 00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:57,200 Speaker 1: The medical examiner testifies this guy examined the wounds, Fine 406 00:26:58,280 --> 00:27:00,840 Speaker 1: says he got shot in the heart, he got shot 407 00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:05,120 Speaker 1: in the ankle. There's no way he runs from the 408 00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:09,760 Speaker 1: vestibule twenty feet to the sidewalk. 409 00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:12,760 Speaker 3: Okay, what's your well, no looks into me. 410 00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:13,640 Speaker 1: I have. 411 00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:22,240 Speaker 3: I was told that people could get shot in the 412 00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:23,119 Speaker 3: heart and run. 413 00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:31,760 Speaker 1: What'm I'm getting to is there's shells, yes, on the body. 414 00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:33,720 Speaker 3: Okay, you testified to that. 415 00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:37,240 Speaker 1: And if there's shells on the body, that means that 416 00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:41,879 Speaker 1: he was shot near where the body fell. 417 00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:45,440 Speaker 3: I would have to say that's true. 418 00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:48,560 Speaker 1: So you know, Louis, I'm getting to the point where 419 00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:54,280 Speaker 1: my point is. You know this was an easy case. 420 00:27:54,320 --> 00:27:55,960 Speaker 1: You're juggling. I don't know how many. 421 00:27:56,160 --> 00:27:58,440 Speaker 3: I caught thirty six in one year, So. 422 00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:02,840 Speaker 1: You got lots of cases. Yeah, yeah, it doesn't seem 423 00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:04,800 Speaker 1: like this was the case for you and the most 424 00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:15,560 Speaker 1: thorough Okay, I I don't. 425 00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:21,520 Speaker 3: Excuse me. I'm not going to say I will say okay, 426 00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:26,600 Speaker 3: I am not going to say anything else. If that's 427 00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:31,399 Speaker 3: your opinion, that's your opinion. I have a question. Do 428 00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:34,840 Speaker 3: you think he's innocent of this case? I don't know 429 00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:35,680 Speaker 3: if he's innocent. 430 00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:41,840 Speaker 1: What I do know is that the evidence contradicts the 431 00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:45,200 Speaker 1: story of Juel Smith, and there was no way he 432 00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:46,200 Speaker 1: should have been convicted. 433 00:28:46,560 --> 00:28:50,480 Speaker 3: Well, if you believe that I have the I have 434 00:28:50,840 --> 00:28:56,160 Speaker 3: respect for it. I don't. I have I will. 435 00:28:56,000 --> 00:29:01,680 Speaker 4: Also having encountered Jewel obviously thirty years after the event. Right, 436 00:29:03,080 --> 00:29:05,040 Speaker 4: she made it very clear to us she's not there's 437 00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:07,520 Speaker 4: no love lost between her and Derek Hamilton. But what 438 00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:09,960 Speaker 4: she was not going to be able to do is 439 00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:12,280 Speaker 4: live her life in good conscious knowing that she'd help 440 00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:13,920 Speaker 4: put an innocent man away. 441 00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:22,400 Speaker 3: Fine, God, if Derek Hamilton is innocent, may look, but 442 00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:25,520 Speaker 3: you know the statement she first gave it to you, 443 00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:30,280 Speaker 3: right right, right right, And there are all these details 444 00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:33,880 Speaker 3: that don't add up that contradict the statement. So my 445 00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:38,120 Speaker 3: question is Wasn't it part of your job as a 446 00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:41,680 Speaker 3: detective to look at this kind of evidence and say, 447 00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:47,040 Speaker 3: you know, I don't know about Joel doesn't work. I 448 00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:57,800 Speaker 3: that is such a very good question, and I'm not 449 00:29:58,360 --> 00:30:06,200 Speaker 3: going to lay it on any body else, but I 450 00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:14,160 Speaker 3: will say this, it's very possible I thought this was 451 00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:20,160 Speaker 3: being handled being handled, especially by the District Attorney's office. 452 00:30:20,440 --> 00:30:26,240 Speaker 3: If I felt secure in the arrest. I felt secure 453 00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:29,600 Speaker 3: in the arrest. I don't know what to say about 454 00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:35,280 Speaker 3: the ballistic evidence. If it was a shoddy investigation on 455 00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:40,760 Speaker 3: my part that put Derek Hamilton away, I will still 456 00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:46,600 Speaker 3: go to my grave saying and believing in my heart 457 00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:53,120 Speaker 3: I didn't do anything illegal, moral or unethical. How did 458 00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:54,000 Speaker 3: those fit together? 459 00:30:55,080 --> 00:30:58,080 Speaker 1: I mean, if it's a shoddy investigation, then you didn't 460 00:30:58,120 --> 00:31:02,200 Speaker 1: give him what his due process. You didn't give him 461 00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:03,640 Speaker 1: the reasonable doubt. 462 00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:10,760 Speaker 3: Steve Fishman read my lips. If I made a mistake 463 00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:20,320 Speaker 3: in the Derek Hamilton case, I would accept it. I 464 00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:24,720 Speaker 3: would accept it, and I'm going to say something else 465 00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:29,400 Speaker 3: to you. I went on to the next homicide. I 466 00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:35,400 Speaker 3: used to go around with at least six stenopads of 467 00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:38,520 Speaker 3: homicides that I was going to work I had to 468 00:31:38,560 --> 00:31:43,640 Speaker 3: prioritize between, which is a terrible thing. People's lives were 469 00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:46,479 Speaker 3: in my hands. I got to do this on this 470 00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:48,840 Speaker 3: one today, and this on this one, and then another 471 00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:52,040 Speaker 3: one comes up. You know what I'm saying. 472 00:31:53,320 --> 00:31:55,200 Speaker 1: You can't be as thorough as you want. There's just 473 00:31:55,240 --> 00:31:58,520 Speaker 1: no way you have to do what you could do. 474 00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:02,040 Speaker 1: And it was a gusting position to be put in. 475 00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:04,800 Speaker 1: And yet you had a sleep with the fact that 476 00:32:04,880 --> 00:32:06,960 Speaker 1: I'm doing the best I could on this And this 477 00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:09,720 Speaker 1: is what you know what I'm saying. It was the 478 00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:13,440 Speaker 1: time that this city, God please, we'll never see again. 479 00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:24,280 Speaker 4: Maybe Louis was doing the best he could, or maybe 480 00:32:24,280 --> 00:32:28,480 Speaker 4: he was simply incompetent or even overwhelmed. But you know what, 481 00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:32,800 Speaker 4: my mind goes back to that crystal ball, the one 482 00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:35,800 Speaker 4: he said was in his gut, the one he claimed 483 00:32:35,880 --> 00:32:39,600 Speaker 4: showed him the truth. And the thing about the truth 484 00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:42,800 Speaker 4: when it's in your gut like that, when you think 485 00:32:42,840 --> 00:32:46,479 Speaker 4: you're serving something higher, and it's easy to get some 486 00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:50,960 Speaker 4: things wrong, cut some corners, maybe even lie in an 487 00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:54,800 Speaker 4: interrogation room where there's no camera or witnesses, because it's 488 00:32:54,800 --> 00:33:00,600 Speaker 4: in service of something greater. Man, I find myself thinking 489 00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:04,960 Speaker 4: back to Shabaka's case. Remember, Shabaka refused to give detectives 490 00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:09,560 Speaker 4: a confession, but then detective Scarcella got him alone in 491 00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:14,840 Speaker 4: an interrogation room, and Shabaka supposedly succumbs to Scarcella's magic 492 00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:25,240 Speaker 4: and makes that faithful, incriminating statement. It's really certainly didn't 493 00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:29,600 Speaker 4: hurt that the people, that is, taxpayers, voters, they all 494 00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:32,440 Speaker 4: wanted the mess off the street and they didn't want 495 00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:37,440 Speaker 4: to be bothered with the details. And here's Louis willing 496 00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:43,040 Speaker 4: to clean it up every time. And when push comes 497 00:33:43,080 --> 00:33:48,000 Speaker 4: to shove, we all know who the jerk was gonna believe. 498 00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:55,280 Speaker 1: After more than ten years in the spotlight, Louis has 499 00:33:55,840 --> 00:34:02,800 Speaker 1: ideas about conspiracies. Previously told us he believes people were 500 00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:05,280 Speaker 1: paid off to get Derek's conviction overturned. 501 00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:11,040 Speaker 3: Political deals were made and I don't care what anybody says, 502 00:34:11,160 --> 00:34:12,440 Speaker 3: because he was as guilty as. 503 00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:15,719 Speaker 2: Sent But does he have any evidence of any of this? 504 00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:26,800 Speaker 3: I I have no evidence of that at this time. 505 00:34:30,440 --> 00:34:35,040 Speaker 1: I don't know Dax, but trafficking and conspiracy theories rumors 506 00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:36,520 Speaker 1: counted his truths. 507 00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:40,160 Speaker 3: I find it exasperating. 508 00:34:40,719 --> 00:34:45,000 Speaker 1: Louis sure that Derek is cheating that he's paying people off. 509 00:34:47,480 --> 00:34:52,120 Speaker 4: But on this day a surprise, Louis sounds like he's 510 00:34:52,160 --> 00:34:54,320 Speaker 4: ready to put an end to his bad blood with Derek. 511 00:34:56,040 --> 00:35:07,919 Speaker 3: I am at a point in my life where why 512 00:35:08,080 --> 00:35:15,680 Speaker 3: have an animosity? He can't hurt me. Derek would like 513 00:35:16,160 --> 00:35:17,879 Speaker 3: to hurt you, but in what way? 514 00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:18,520 Speaker 7: Oh? 515 00:35:18,640 --> 00:35:20,600 Speaker 3: I don't know. That's his mission in life is to 516 00:35:20,719 --> 00:35:22,959 Speaker 3: you know, get to Louis Carsale. Let me explain something 517 00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:30,720 Speaker 3: to you. I have no problem talking to Derek Hamblton. 518 00:35:33,760 --> 00:35:37,319 Speaker 4: Turned out we've been kicking around that very idea. What 519 00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:41,920 Speaker 4: if Louis and Derek had a conversation. What would happen? 520 00:35:43,080 --> 00:35:47,320 Speaker 4: Would it turn into a street fight two enemies, immovable forces? 521 00:35:48,680 --> 00:35:51,280 Speaker 3: Or who knows? Maybe it would be revealing. 522 00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:56,319 Speaker 1: I'd presented the idea to Derek, and then here we 523 00:35:56,360 --> 00:36:00,480 Speaker 1: have Louis casually mentioning he'd sit and talk to Derek Hamilton. 524 00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:05,840 Speaker 3: I can get him on the phone. Now, would you 525 00:36:05,920 --> 00:36:06,600 Speaker 3: listen to him? 526 00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:07,080 Speaker 2: Well? 527 00:36:07,120 --> 00:36:11,279 Speaker 3: Would I get a chance to talk to him? Absolutely? Absolutely? 528 00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:22,360 Speaker 3: Let me see. Uh, let's see if he maybe he 529 00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:24,960 Speaker 3: won't even pick up. I really don't. I shouldn't even 530 00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:28,400 Speaker 3: do this on my lawyer is the but I know 531 00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:32,920 Speaker 3: what I have to say, yeah, you know, Louis, if 532 00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:35,080 Speaker 3: you don't want to say, I will speak to him. 533 00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:41,960 Speaker 9: Yeah, all right, how you doing Derek Hamilton speaking legal 534 00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:48,360 Speaker 9: and legal is shruding now not available even message well. 535 00:36:48,280 --> 00:36:49,200 Speaker 3: He's not picking up. 536 00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:53,840 Speaker 4: Steve leaves the room for a moment to try to 537 00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:57,000 Speaker 4: get Derek on the line. It's now just Louis and me, 538 00:36:57,280 --> 00:37:00,680 Speaker 4: probably for the first time. I turn around and I 539 00:37:00,719 --> 00:37:03,280 Speaker 4: see in the you know, in the you know, behind 540 00:37:03,440 --> 00:37:06,240 Speaker 4: the glass studio space, there's a kind of frenzy happening, 541 00:37:06,239 --> 00:37:08,160 Speaker 4: and I know what's going on. I don't know how 542 00:37:08,239 --> 00:37:10,279 Speaker 4: much Louis has no clue what's going I know what's 543 00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:13,719 Speaker 4: happening at this point, and I know that in some 544 00:37:13,760 --> 00:37:17,080 Speaker 4: ways like it, whatever might happen at the moments when 545 00:37:17,120 --> 00:37:20,120 Speaker 4: Steve returns, I don't know. But I do know that 546 00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:26,680 Speaker 4: for the first time in three years, I am sitting 547 00:37:26,719 --> 00:37:30,680 Speaker 4: directly across from him, Louie that is, and it's just 548 00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:36,719 Speaker 4: the two of us, and I instinctively realize that I 549 00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:40,560 Speaker 4: have to use this opportunity to engage him because I 550 00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:43,360 Speaker 4: will not have another one of these, in part because 551 00:37:43,360 --> 00:37:45,799 Speaker 4: I don't want another one, but the reality being that 552 00:37:45,840 --> 00:37:48,880 Speaker 4: we will not talk to him again, and so I 553 00:37:49,040 --> 00:37:52,120 Speaker 4: go in and I knew that I had been holding 554 00:37:52,160 --> 00:37:57,000 Speaker 4: a lot myself and in some ways just wasn't going 555 00:37:57,080 --> 00:37:58,960 Speaker 4: to ever have a chance to get these things off 556 00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:06,600 Speaker 4: my chest. I want to share something with you because 557 00:38:06,640 --> 00:38:09,800 Speaker 4: I think it's important that I wanted something I've been 558 00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:13,400 Speaker 4: holding and wanting to share with you. Steve brought me 559 00:38:13,440 --> 00:38:17,760 Speaker 4: into this project back in twenty twenty, right before George Floyd. 560 00:38:18,520 --> 00:38:23,680 Speaker 4: I entered this story with very very strong feelings about 561 00:38:23,719 --> 00:38:28,400 Speaker 4: you without really knowing you, really strong feelings. 562 00:38:28,080 --> 00:38:29,840 Speaker 3: And they weren't good feelings. 563 00:38:29,680 --> 00:38:30,920 Speaker 2: And they weren't good feelings. 564 00:38:30,920 --> 00:38:33,520 Speaker 3: I know, I remember that, and I remember getting that 565 00:38:33,560 --> 00:38:34,480 Speaker 3: from you right. 566 00:38:34,640 --> 00:38:38,920 Speaker 4: And a lot of that had to do with my 567 00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:41,560 Speaker 4: own experiences with the system, had to do with a 568 00:38:41,560 --> 00:38:45,600 Speaker 4: lot of things. And what I want to offer is 569 00:38:45,640 --> 00:38:50,440 Speaker 4: that doing this project and even getting to know you conversation, 570 00:38:50,600 --> 00:38:53,120 Speaker 4: spending time you've sat and been generous with your time. 571 00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:58,920 Speaker 2: I have to say that I've moved. 572 00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:01,360 Speaker 4: And what I say that I've moved, it's like I 573 00:39:02,280 --> 00:39:05,839 Speaker 4: sit across from someone who who I see as a 574 00:39:05,880 --> 00:39:13,960 Speaker 4: real complex, compassionate human who has deep feeling for his family, 575 00:39:14,040 --> 00:39:18,080 Speaker 4: for other people's lives, and I feel like it's important 576 00:39:18,080 --> 00:39:20,280 Speaker 4: for me to tell you that I appreciate the journey 577 00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:21,880 Speaker 4: that you've gone on on this project. 578 00:39:23,400 --> 00:39:24,920 Speaker 2: I don't believe that you were engaged in. 579 00:39:24,880 --> 00:39:29,279 Speaker 4: Malicious, harmful acts to harm others, particularly black men. I 580 00:39:29,280 --> 00:39:32,600 Speaker 4: don't believe that that's what it was. I'm still sitting 581 00:39:32,600 --> 00:39:35,000 Speaker 4: with the time period in which was all happening, the 582 00:39:35,040 --> 00:39:38,320 Speaker 4: eighties the early nineties. I'm still sitting with the system 583 00:39:38,360 --> 00:39:41,160 Speaker 4: in which you operated and the system in which it 584 00:39:41,320 --> 00:39:46,239 Speaker 4: enabled a number of actors, judges, prosecutors, all sorts of 585 00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:51,200 Speaker 4: people to act right. I'm still sitting with that stuff. 586 00:39:51,200 --> 00:39:53,239 Speaker 4: But I just need you to know that I've been 587 00:39:53,239 --> 00:39:55,719 Speaker 4: on a journey with you, and I really appreciate the 588 00:39:55,800 --> 00:39:58,040 Speaker 4: journey that you've allowed me to be a part of, 589 00:39:59,160 --> 00:40:02,239 Speaker 4: to see asked, to see you, to sit across from you, 590 00:40:02,320 --> 00:40:04,680 Speaker 4: to ask you hard questions, and for you to not 591 00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:06,440 Speaker 4: duck any of those questions. 592 00:40:07,160 --> 00:40:08,520 Speaker 2: So I just want to say thank you for that. 593 00:40:09,280 --> 00:40:17,880 Speaker 3: You're welcome. I labored since I seen you last. I 594 00:40:18,080 --> 00:40:24,640 Speaker 3: labored with you, and when I came down here today 595 00:40:25,040 --> 00:40:30,359 Speaker 3: and when I saw you, I said wow. And I 596 00:40:30,440 --> 00:40:36,600 Speaker 3: want to say to you right now, I thank you, 597 00:40:44,760 --> 00:40:53,640 Speaker 3: Thank you, thank you. I really appreciate that because you're 598 00:40:53,640 --> 00:40:56,600 Speaker 3: a black man. You're the first black man that was 599 00:40:56,640 --> 00:41:01,480 Speaker 3: involved in this thing. I'm a white Italian hop from Bensonhurs, 600 00:41:01,560 --> 00:41:06,480 Speaker 3: from Old Island. You know what I'm saying. I said, wow, 601 00:41:06,920 --> 00:41:08,640 Speaker 3: I said, what am I going to do with this? 602 00:41:08,680 --> 00:41:11,600 Speaker 3: And I said, Louis, you deal with it head on 603 00:41:11,719 --> 00:41:17,319 Speaker 3: and say what you have to say. You have kids, Yes, 604 00:41:17,360 --> 00:41:24,759 Speaker 3: I do. God, I'm looking forward to going on a 605 00:41:24,800 --> 00:41:28,680 Speaker 3: weekend Memorial Day with my family, as I have done 606 00:41:28,680 --> 00:41:33,879 Speaker 3: over the last years. If I framed an innocent man, 607 00:41:36,360 --> 00:41:40,920 Speaker 3: I framed an innocent man. How could I take my 608 00:41:41,000 --> 00:41:50,560 Speaker 3: grandson tonight and tell him how much I love him? 609 00:41:51,400 --> 00:41:54,759 Speaker 3: Coming from my family, from my father, my brother, and 610 00:41:54,840 --> 00:42:01,759 Speaker 3: my daughter. I could not that. I could not. I 611 00:42:01,760 --> 00:42:02,640 Speaker 3: couldnot do with that. 612 00:42:17,600 --> 00:42:20,680 Speaker 1: Nacuse, it seems like you came around on, Louis. Seems 613 00:42:20,719 --> 00:42:21,960 Speaker 1: like you liked the guy. 614 00:42:23,160 --> 00:42:26,520 Speaker 4: I started in a place of real hardness relative to him. 615 00:42:27,160 --> 00:42:29,640 Speaker 4: To be putally blunt, I didn't like him, didn't like 616 00:42:29,680 --> 00:42:33,520 Speaker 4: what he stood for. And what I've come to is 617 00:42:34,480 --> 00:42:37,759 Speaker 4: a place where I can say I don't see an 618 00:42:37,840 --> 00:42:42,719 Speaker 4: evil person. Do I see someone who made bad choices, 619 00:42:43,360 --> 00:42:47,279 Speaker 4: who maybe wasn't very competent at all times and deserves 620 00:42:47,920 --> 00:42:53,439 Speaker 4: to be held accountable for the things he did. Yes, 621 00:42:53,880 --> 00:42:56,680 Speaker 4: all of that, but I'm gonna tell you I need 622 00:42:56,680 --> 00:43:01,960 Speaker 4: to leave this experience and not feel damaged by it. 623 00:43:02,640 --> 00:43:05,480 Speaker 4: And to hold him in contempt and to be angry 624 00:43:05,520 --> 00:43:07,960 Speaker 4: at him would be damaging to my own soul and 625 00:43:07,960 --> 00:43:10,400 Speaker 4: psyche and I'm not having that. And so if it 626 00:43:10,520 --> 00:43:14,200 Speaker 4: just meant sitting across from him and saying I've moved, 627 00:43:14,640 --> 00:43:17,520 Speaker 4: and that's what broke him to tears, because it's all 628 00:43:17,560 --> 00:43:20,640 Speaker 4: I really said. I didn't say you're innocent. I didn't 629 00:43:20,640 --> 00:43:23,160 Speaker 4: say you're my buddy. I think they've done you wrong. 630 00:43:23,280 --> 00:43:25,560 Speaker 4: That never came up my mouth. Let's be very clear. 631 00:43:26,719 --> 00:43:29,000 Speaker 4: I just said I moved. And I think it's a 632 00:43:29,080 --> 00:43:33,040 Speaker 4: human thing to do, is to tell people, honestly that 633 00:43:33,239 --> 00:43:36,120 Speaker 4: I something part of me has changed where I don't 634 00:43:36,160 --> 00:43:38,600 Speaker 4: just see a caricature of cop in front of me, 635 00:43:39,280 --> 00:43:40,239 Speaker 4: I see human being. 636 00:43:41,239 --> 00:43:43,360 Speaker 3: That's all. Tell you. It's weird. 637 00:43:44,719 --> 00:43:49,080 Speaker 1: My journey took me in a different direction. I lost 638 00:43:49,080 --> 00:43:51,520 Speaker 1: my patience with him. I lost my patience with his 639 00:43:52,760 --> 00:43:58,960 Speaker 1: continual self justifications. He so often repeated that narrative of 640 00:43:59,000 --> 00:44:03,360 Speaker 1: his flawless business, his blamelessness. I'll go to my grave 641 00:44:03,440 --> 00:44:06,960 Speaker 1: insisting I did nothing wrong, and I just have to 642 00:44:07,000 --> 00:44:09,319 Speaker 1: say it doesn't have the ring of truth to me. 643 00:44:10,400 --> 00:44:12,840 Speaker 1: He wasn't a corrupt cop in it for the money. 644 00:44:13,800 --> 00:44:19,239 Speaker 1: But he wants to pass because he was, like what 645 00:44:19,440 --> 00:44:23,120 Speaker 1: one of the good guys, because they were crazy, violent times, 646 00:44:23,400 --> 00:44:27,919 Speaker 1: because the DA didn't overrule him, because as he told 647 00:44:28,000 --> 00:44:32,280 Speaker 1: us that very first time, he's a very good person. 648 00:44:33,680 --> 00:44:34,960 Speaker 3: I don't think he gets a pass. 649 00:44:36,680 --> 00:44:39,160 Speaker 1: He had a lot of power and a lot of 650 00:44:39,160 --> 00:44:42,920 Speaker 1: those people who went away. I don't know if they 651 00:44:42,920 --> 00:44:46,960 Speaker 1: were innocent or guilty, but I know that the evidence 652 00:44:47,320 --> 00:44:51,560 Speaker 1: wasn't there, that the evidence was fudged. In some cases, 653 00:44:51,600 --> 00:44:56,280 Speaker 1: it was fraudulent, and no one in authority paid attention. 654 00:45:08,840 --> 00:45:12,040 Speaker 1: Our producer walks into the studio, his laptop open. 655 00:45:13,160 --> 00:45:15,480 Speaker 3: Derek is on zoom. 656 00:45:15,719 --> 00:45:17,320 Speaker 2: This is ten years in the making. 657 00:45:18,880 --> 00:45:23,959 Speaker 1: These guys have never had any extended conversation and they've 658 00:45:24,000 --> 00:45:28,600 Speaker 1: been living in each other's minds all these years. I'm 659 00:45:28,640 --> 00:45:32,040 Speaker 1: thinking that there are gonna be fireworks, that Derek is 660 00:45:32,080 --> 00:45:35,440 Speaker 1: going to leap all over him. Maybe there's gonna be 661 00:45:35,480 --> 00:45:39,919 Speaker 1: the moment when we get at something when Scarsella has 662 00:45:39,960 --> 00:45:43,719 Speaker 1: to answer for himself in front of his real accuser. 663 00:45:45,120 --> 00:45:45,840 Speaker 3: Here it is. 664 00:45:49,440 --> 00:45:51,239 Speaker 5: Hello, Hello, how you doing? 665 00:45:52,200 --> 00:45:53,759 Speaker 3: Hello? How you doing? 666 00:45:54,120 --> 00:45:56,000 Speaker 5: Can you hear me? Can you see me? Yes? 667 00:45:56,080 --> 00:45:56,680 Speaker 3: I can? 668 00:45:57,320 --> 00:45:58,200 Speaker 5: So you checked the. 669 00:45:58,200 --> 00:46:00,799 Speaker 10: Scar seller first, you know, I want to say that, 670 00:46:01,360 --> 00:46:04,000 Speaker 10: you know, I appreciate that you give me the opportunity 671 00:46:04,000 --> 00:46:07,520 Speaker 10: to speak to you. Second of all, that you know, 672 00:46:07,560 --> 00:46:11,279 Speaker 10: I feel that the Prosecutor's office, you know, played the 673 00:46:11,280 --> 00:46:13,560 Speaker 10: hell of a role and the majority of the wrong 674 00:46:13,640 --> 00:46:17,040 Speaker 10: with convictions, and at some point Charles Hines and his 675 00:46:17,160 --> 00:46:19,400 Speaker 10: crew kind of like threw you under the bus for 676 00:46:19,440 --> 00:46:22,040 Speaker 10: whatever that reason may be right, And I just want 677 00:46:22,080 --> 00:46:23,799 Speaker 10: to know what you feel about that, Like, you know, 678 00:46:24,320 --> 00:46:27,279 Speaker 10: get some insight from you about when you testified. You 679 00:46:27,320 --> 00:46:29,839 Speaker 10: say that, you know, you brought cases to the Prosecutor's 680 00:46:29,880 --> 00:46:32,480 Speaker 10: office and it was their decision to prosecute guys like 681 00:46:32,560 --> 00:46:34,879 Speaker 10: me or not. What does that mean to see them now, 682 00:46:35,400 --> 00:46:37,920 Speaker 10: you know, putting all the blame or basically reversing cases 683 00:46:37,960 --> 00:46:38,680 Speaker 10: that relate to you. 684 00:46:40,880 --> 00:46:45,160 Speaker 3: First of all, you have to give me ten seconds 685 00:46:46,640 --> 00:46:51,959 Speaker 3: to absorb this, because I didn't think you were going 686 00:46:52,000 --> 00:46:58,600 Speaker 3: to come across. As you are coming across, I was 687 00:46:58,800 --> 00:47:06,960 Speaker 3: definitely thrown on to the bus. It was a terrible 688 00:47:07,000 --> 00:47:11,080 Speaker 3: thing that was done to me and my family. The 689 00:47:11,239 --> 00:47:20,719 Speaker 3: press surely didn't help it, and you didn't help it 690 00:47:21,440 --> 00:47:24,920 Speaker 3: by the things that you said. And I could I 691 00:47:25,080 --> 00:47:30,319 Speaker 3: understand some of the things you said about me, And 692 00:47:31,160 --> 00:47:39,160 Speaker 3: I want to say this to you, I don't I 693 00:47:39,200 --> 00:47:44,320 Speaker 3: really don't know you. I handled the case the best 694 00:47:44,520 --> 00:47:45,120 Speaker 3: I did. 695 00:47:47,600 --> 00:47:47,799 Speaker 5: Ah. 696 00:47:50,000 --> 00:47:57,080 Speaker 3: I wish you and your family nothing but peace and health. 697 00:47:58,239 --> 00:48:02,080 Speaker 3: Maybe at a later time we can sit and discuss 698 00:48:02,160 --> 00:48:03,920 Speaker 3: this more in depth. 699 00:48:04,520 --> 00:48:07,239 Speaker 10: I just want to say, from my perspective and other 700 00:48:07,280 --> 00:48:10,960 Speaker 10: people perspective, Look, people get it wrong in life every 701 00:48:11,000 --> 00:48:14,759 Speaker 10: single day, right there. Sometimes, uh, you know, you get 702 00:48:14,800 --> 00:48:18,280 Speaker 10: information or I get information that may not be accurate, 703 00:48:18,680 --> 00:48:22,560 Speaker 10: and we act on things on misinformation, right. I mean, 704 00:48:22,719 --> 00:48:26,120 Speaker 10: it happens to every every human being in this world. Right, 705 00:48:26,160 --> 00:48:28,120 Speaker 10: nobody's in zen, not even me. 706 00:48:28,640 --> 00:48:28,799 Speaker 5: Right. 707 00:48:28,840 --> 00:48:31,080 Speaker 10: There's been times when I pass judged me on people 708 00:48:31,400 --> 00:48:33,520 Speaker 10: that I later went back and said, you know what, 709 00:48:34,320 --> 00:48:38,160 Speaker 10: I was wrong, Right, I had misinformation. Somebody live to me. 710 00:48:38,239 --> 00:48:42,319 Speaker 10: Somebody gave me a terrible, terrible information. And I'm not 711 00:48:42,400 --> 00:48:45,920 Speaker 10: asking you to pinpoint any particular case or whatsoever, but 712 00:48:45,960 --> 00:48:49,680 Speaker 10: I'm just saying that there's over twenty people who's been exonerated, 713 00:48:50,120 --> 00:48:52,200 Speaker 10: and to hear you say that you didn't get one wrong. 714 00:48:52,600 --> 00:48:53,960 Speaker 10: And I know that you're saying that you you know 715 00:48:54,200 --> 00:48:56,200 Speaker 10: what he did, what they did to your family, but 716 00:48:56,280 --> 00:48:58,880 Speaker 10: a lot of our families were affected as well, you know, 717 00:48:59,000 --> 00:49:01,359 Speaker 10: Oh yes, And I just want to say that from 718 00:49:01,360 --> 00:49:03,959 Speaker 10: a humane point of view, none of us is better 719 00:49:04,000 --> 00:49:04,600 Speaker 10: than each other. 720 00:49:05,120 --> 00:49:06,520 Speaker 5: Right, We're all human beings. 721 00:49:06,920 --> 00:49:10,560 Speaker 10: So at some point throughout my life and your life, 722 00:49:10,719 --> 00:49:13,279 Speaker 10: I just hope that you reflect back on every case 723 00:49:13,320 --> 00:49:13,680 Speaker 10: and just. 724 00:49:13,640 --> 00:49:15,240 Speaker 5: Ask yourself, did you get one wrong? 725 00:49:15,719 --> 00:49:17,880 Speaker 10: Is there a possibility that you got one wrong or 726 00:49:17,880 --> 00:49:20,759 Speaker 10: two long or three wrong? Because the liability the city 727 00:49:20,800 --> 00:49:23,560 Speaker 10: is panning out every single day, not saying that they not. 728 00:49:23,640 --> 00:49:23,799 Speaker 5: You know. 729 00:49:23,840 --> 00:49:25,960 Speaker 10: Look, the bottom line is we humans, man, and we 730 00:49:26,000 --> 00:49:28,239 Speaker 10: make mistakes, you know. And I'm feelings you in a 731 00:49:28,320 --> 00:49:31,399 Speaker 10: humane way. I'm not coming on here trying to point 732 00:49:31,480 --> 00:49:33,560 Speaker 10: fingers that you will or throw one that you or 733 00:49:33,880 --> 00:49:35,480 Speaker 10: I did that already like you might have did it, 734 00:49:35,480 --> 00:49:38,040 Speaker 10: you know what I mean. And I'm above that, you know. 735 00:49:38,239 --> 00:49:40,120 Speaker 10: I just hope you take what I'm saying the consideration, 736 00:49:41,520 --> 00:49:43,200 Speaker 10: you know, and I wish you and your family the 737 00:49:43,239 --> 00:49:48,719 Speaker 10: best as well. 738 00:49:46,200 --> 00:49:55,160 Speaker 3: Derek, I understand what you're saying wholeheartedly, and again I'm 739 00:49:55,200 --> 00:50:00,440 Speaker 3: taken back by your personality, your honesty, and where you're 740 00:50:00,480 --> 00:50:05,880 Speaker 3: coming across. And I hear what you are saying. I 741 00:50:06,200 --> 00:50:09,160 Speaker 3: do hear what you're saying. I was not perfect. There 742 00:50:09,200 --> 00:50:12,719 Speaker 3: is no perfect man in this world at this point 743 00:50:12,800 --> 00:50:15,640 Speaker 3: in time. I think what you did was a great 744 00:50:15,719 --> 00:50:19,840 Speaker 3: thing talking to me. Hopefully in the future we could 745 00:50:19,920 --> 00:50:24,040 Speaker 3: sit down again and get into it even more if 746 00:50:24,080 --> 00:50:25,239 Speaker 3: you choose to do so. 747 00:50:25,880 --> 00:50:29,520 Speaker 10: To talk about this well, absolutely, you know, thank you 748 00:50:29,560 --> 00:50:31,920 Speaker 10: for your time, and I'll leave it open for us 749 00:50:31,960 --> 00:50:33,080 Speaker 10: to talk again in the future. 750 00:50:34,160 --> 00:50:37,120 Speaker 3: I definitely will, and thank you for talking to me. 751 00:50:37,640 --> 00:50:39,840 Speaker 3: All right, all the best to you and your family 752 00:50:40,480 --> 00:50:41,120 Speaker 3: you as well. 753 00:50:43,280 --> 00:50:49,560 Speaker 4: Then the zoom disconnected and Derek was gone, but Louis 754 00:50:50,600 --> 00:50:54,479 Speaker 4: was still across from us. Now he was hunched over. 755 00:50:55,960 --> 00:50:57,880 Speaker 4: From what I could tell, he seemed to be staring 756 00:50:57,920 --> 00:51:00,160 Speaker 4: at a spot on the table in front of him. 757 00:51:01,760 --> 00:51:06,920 Speaker 3: I feel really good. I can't explain why one hundred 758 00:51:07,000 --> 00:51:12,480 Speaker 3: percent he's he. He just blew me away, and I 759 00:51:12,560 --> 00:51:16,719 Speaker 3: hope I came across as good to him as he 760 00:51:16,760 --> 00:51:19,680 Speaker 3: came across to me. After what he's been through. And 761 00:51:19,719 --> 00:51:22,560 Speaker 3: what his family's been through and what I've been through. 762 00:51:22,800 --> 00:51:25,120 Speaker 3: But he did really say a couple of a number 763 00:51:25,120 --> 00:51:29,080 Speaker 3: of bad things about me, which is fine, Which is fine. 764 00:51:29,840 --> 00:51:35,200 Speaker 3: I really I feel good that this happened, and at 765 00:51:35,239 --> 00:51:39,560 Speaker 3: a point in time, I would love to meet with him. 766 00:51:41,200 --> 00:51:45,920 Speaker 3: You really care what people think? Why? I guess because 767 00:51:45,960 --> 00:51:51,240 Speaker 3: I'm a libra, I don't know. I want the people 768 00:51:51,680 --> 00:51:53,800 Speaker 3: to know the truth. 769 00:52:01,200 --> 00:52:05,759 Speaker 4: I think the talk with Derek made Louis feel like 770 00:52:06,640 --> 00:52:09,799 Speaker 4: there was one less person in the world to hate him. 771 00:52:10,920 --> 00:52:13,839 Speaker 4: We all know that Louis's life has changed. Who he 772 00:52:13,880 --> 00:52:16,440 Speaker 4: once was King of the hill, prince of the city. 773 00:52:17,360 --> 00:52:23,120 Speaker 4: Now he's emiliated regularly in the press, detective disgrace. Even 774 00:52:23,160 --> 00:52:26,080 Speaker 4: after the cru clears him, the headlines are still calling 775 00:52:26,160 --> 00:52:30,960 Speaker 4: to corrupt. It's Derek's time now he's the one who celebrated. 776 00:52:32,760 --> 00:52:36,319 Speaker 4: Maybe Steve Louie didn't win you over, or me for 777 00:52:36,360 --> 00:52:39,960 Speaker 4: that matter, but it seems like Derek is treating him 778 00:52:40,040 --> 00:52:40,680 Speaker 4: like a person. 779 00:52:42,440 --> 00:52:45,880 Speaker 1: Derek has changed a lot. He's changed a lot in 780 00:52:45,920 --> 00:52:49,560 Speaker 1: the time we've known him. He's to shout at cameras. 781 00:52:50,360 --> 00:52:54,400 Speaker 1: Now he's measured to me, seems like a lawyer addressed 782 00:52:54,440 --> 00:52:57,640 Speaker 1: in a jury. He has points he wants to make. 783 00:52:58,680 --> 00:53:03,040 Speaker 1: He doesn't have to shout anymore. Frankly, Derek is not 784 00:53:03,160 --> 00:53:08,520 Speaker 1: the underdog anymore. This moment. It reminded me of something 785 00:53:09,120 --> 00:53:14,000 Speaker 1: Derek told me once. He said, you feel like you 786 00:53:14,080 --> 00:53:17,279 Speaker 1: don't have the power, but when you learn you do, 787 00:53:17,840 --> 00:53:19,759 Speaker 1: it changes everything. 788 00:53:25,080 --> 00:53:29,239 Speaker 11: I'm standing here having done thirty years of my life 789 00:53:29,280 --> 00:53:31,960 Speaker 11: in prison. I'm only fifty seven, so I spent more 790 00:53:32,000 --> 00:53:33,520 Speaker 11: time in prison than did in society. 791 00:53:34,960 --> 00:53:38,440 Speaker 1: Derek Hamilton is at the podium. He's the new deputy 792 00:53:38,480 --> 00:53:41,879 Speaker 1: director of the Pearl Mutter Center for Legal Justice at 793 00:53:41,920 --> 00:53:44,000 Speaker 1: Cardozo Law School in New York. 794 00:53:44,840 --> 00:53:47,640 Speaker 4: It's a party to celebrate his new job. It's a 795 00:53:47,680 --> 00:53:54,400 Speaker 4: big event. Funders, lawyers, elected officials. The district attorney is there, 796 00:53:54,960 --> 00:53:59,640 Speaker 4: no longer fighting against Derek is celebrating him. 797 00:54:00,040 --> 00:54:03,239 Speaker 11: And Eric Zalees, who stands here today. I want to 798 00:54:03,239 --> 00:54:04,000 Speaker 11: thank him as well. 799 00:54:07,719 --> 00:54:10,680 Speaker 4: As part of Derek's new job, he's leading a clinic 800 00:54:10,800 --> 00:54:14,719 Speaker 4: of law students. Derek calls it his. 801 00:54:14,880 --> 00:54:18,759 Speaker 2: Army and to those guys in prison, be coming for you. 802 00:54:26,440 --> 00:54:30,759 Speaker 1: Derek is blown away by the ceremony. I've never seen 803 00:54:30,840 --> 00:54:34,680 Speaker 1: him so happy, so light. I grab him for a 804 00:54:34,680 --> 00:54:38,080 Speaker 1: private moment. Can you believe you're here? 805 00:54:38,160 --> 00:54:38,359 Speaker 5: Though? 806 00:54:38,480 --> 00:54:40,560 Speaker 3: I mean cod surreal man. 807 00:54:40,719 --> 00:54:44,239 Speaker 6: I never, in my wildest dream could imagine that I 808 00:54:44,239 --> 00:54:46,080 Speaker 6: would be the deputy director of a cause I got 809 00:54:46,080 --> 00:54:47,800 Speaker 6: a g D. Another been to college the day of 810 00:54:47,840 --> 00:54:51,200 Speaker 6: my life. I'm self taught, so you know, I never 811 00:54:51,280 --> 00:54:54,560 Speaker 6: thought in a million years that flying myself in the 812 00:54:54,600 --> 00:54:56,840 Speaker 6: way that I did would even give me the opportunity 813 00:54:56,880 --> 00:54:59,000 Speaker 6: to be here. I look forward to doing what I 814 00:54:59,040 --> 00:55:01,160 Speaker 6: do as hon wouldn't getting people out. 815 00:55:03,280 --> 00:55:06,879 Speaker 1: Fuck him with the system, Yeah, very much. 816 00:55:06,880 --> 00:55:21,000 Speaker 4: So he's got his work cut out for him. There 817 00:55:21,000 --> 00:55:24,480 Speaker 4: are thought to be one hundred thousand wrongfully convicted people 818 00:55:24,520 --> 00:55:27,320 Speaker 4: in prison in these United States. 819 00:55:43,480 --> 00:55:51,239 Speaker 7: I'm at. 820 00:55:56,120 --> 00:55:58,640 Speaker 3: The Burden is created by Steve Fishman, That's Me. 821 00:55:59,120 --> 00:56:02,680 Speaker 1: It's hosted in recorded by Steve Fishman and Dax Devlyn Ross. 822 00:56:02,880 --> 00:56:06,879 Speaker 1: Story editor is Dan Bobkoff, who also produced this episode. 823 00:56:07,040 --> 00:56:11,320 Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Simon Rentner. Our producer is Sanam Skelly, 824 00:56:11,680 --> 00:56:16,520 Speaker 1: Associate producer Austin Smith. Fact checking by Sona Avakian. Our 825 00:56:16,560 --> 00:56:20,759 Speaker 1: production coordinator is Davon Paradise. Mixing and sound design by 826 00:56:20,880 --> 00:56:25,280 Speaker 1: Mumbo Media. Our executive producers are Fisher Stevens Evan Williams 827 00:56:25,320 --> 00:56:29,120 Speaker 1: and me Steve Fishman. Additional production help from Josie Holtzman, 828 00:56:29,360 --> 00:56:35,160 Speaker 1: Isaac Kestenbaum, Naomi Ronner, Lucy Sucheck, Drew Nellis, Micah Hazel, Priscilla, 829 00:56:35,239 --> 00:56:39,359 Speaker 1: Alabi Saxon Beard, Katie Simon, and Katie Spranger. We give 830 00:56:39,440 --> 00:56:44,440 Speaker 1: special thanks to Ellen Horn, Lizzie Jacobs, Nathan Tempe, Tobiah Black, 831 00:56:44,640 --> 00:56:49,200 Speaker 1: Rachel Morrissey, Lyla Robinson, Mark Smerling and Zack Stewart Pontier. 832 00:56:49,640 --> 00:56:51,840 Speaker 3: And deep appreciation to Marcy Wiseman. 833 00:56:52,360 --> 00:56:55,600 Speaker 1: Special thanks to our agents Ben Davis and Marissa Hurrowitz, 834 00:56:56,040 --> 00:56:59,160 Speaker 1: Special thanks to Rhea Julian my wife, and special thanks 835 00:56:59,160 --> 00:57:02,240 Speaker 1: to my wife Alana Mona Hoop provided our legal advice. 836 00:57:02,440 --> 00:57:06,160 Speaker 3: She's from m K S R L LP. And a very. 837 00:57:06,000 --> 00:57:09,360 Speaker 1: Special thanks to Evan Williams, one of our executive producers 838 00:57:09,520 --> 00:57:12,680 Speaker 1: and the person who made this podcast possible. We are 839 00:57:12,800 --> 00:57:15,600 Speaker 1: honored to feature the song black Lightning from The Bell 840 00:57:15,719 --> 00:57:18,520 Speaker 1: Rays as our theme music. The Burden is a production 841 00:57:18,600 --> 00:57:22,040 Speaker 1: of Orbit Media in association with Signal Company Number One. 842 00:57:22,680 --> 00:57:26,880 Speaker 7: No matter where you are and your I'm on rest 843 00:57:27,000 --> 00:57:32,640 Speaker 7: until Monday, I'm black Lightning all across the wild. 844 00:57:34,920 --> 00:57:37,480 Speaker 1: Sun a lot the way, I'm. 845 00:57:37,360 --> 00:57:46,440 Speaker 7: Black lining, A'm black lining, I'm black lining, I'm black lines. 846 00:57:53,120 --> 00:57:55,960 Speaker 1: Season two of The Burden Empire on Blood will be 847 00:57:56,000 --> 00:58:00,360 Speaker 1: available everywhere you get your podcasts on August seventh. All 848 00:58:00,400 --> 00:58:04,280 Speaker 1: episodes will be available early and ad free, along with 849 00:58:04,400 --> 00:58:09,680 Speaker 1: exclusive bonus content on Orbit's newly launched True Crime Clubhouse, 850 00:58:10,120 --> 00:58:14,520 Speaker 1: our subscription channel on Apple Podcasts. It's only two ninety 851 00:58:14,600 --> 00:58:15,280 Speaker 1: nine a month.