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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name

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Speaker 2: is Robert.

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Speaker 3: Lamb and I am Joe McCormick.

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Speaker 2: And we are back with our second episode on the Ninja.

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Speaker 2: If you didn't listen to part one, go back and

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Speaker 2: start with that one. We talked about the modern pop

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Speaker 2: culture idea of the ninja a bit we didn't cover everything.

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Speaker 2: We're going to continue to throw in some mentions here

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Speaker 2: and there. And we've been getting some great listener mail

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Speaker 2: from folks writing in about their own first exposure to

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Speaker 2: ninja media, either you know, Japanese media or international media,

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Speaker 2: and so just keep that kind of stuff rolling in.

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Speaker 2: And when we get around to doing another listener mail episode,

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Speaker 2: which we're currently experimenting with a return to the old

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Speaker 2: format of having our listener mail episodes occur on a

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Speaker 2: Tuesday or Thursday, when we get around to that will

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Speaker 2: definitely dive into the ninja portion of the mail bag.

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Speaker 2: We talked about how the idea of the ninja entered

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Speaker 2: the global mainstream. We discussed a little bit the scarcity

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Speaker 2: of historical accounts of the ninja, basic ideas concerning the

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Speaker 2: reality of what we refer to as a ninja, the

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Speaker 2: origin of the word, other colloquial names for the ninja,

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Speaker 2: and what sorts of activities they engaged in and are

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Speaker 2: said to have engaged in. And we also discussed how

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Speaker 2: the pop culture transformation of the ninja was not a

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Speaker 2: Western or even a modern thing, but began in Japan

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Speaker 2: centuries ago. And so we're going to jump back in

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Speaker 2: here talking about some more ninja history and sort of

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Speaker 2: like continuing to sort of tease apart, like what is history,

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Speaker 2: what is probably accurate from a historical standpoint, and then

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Speaker 2: then what are the additional layers of legend and fiction

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Speaker 2: that also lead to this modern idea of what the

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Speaker 2: ninja is.

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Speaker 3: Right Before we get into more individual anecdotes and investigations,

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Speaker 3: I wanted to start with a brief way of looking

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Speaker 3: at the historical basis of the ninja myth. As we

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Speaker 3: mentioned in the last episode, this is a really complicated subject.

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Speaker 3: There are serious questions among scholars about to what extent

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Speaker 3: the historical ninja actually existed at all. It certainly is

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Speaker 3: the case that there are lots of historical records of

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Speaker 3: activities during warfare that were referred to as shinobi. This

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Speaker 3: is a synonym for ninja shenoby no mono shinoby activities

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Speaker 3: during warfare, especially during a particular historical period that we're

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Speaker 3: going to talk about in a bit. So it's not

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Speaker 3: like a scarcity of historical sources referring to ninja type

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Speaker 3: activities or shnobi activities. Instead, it seems to me the

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Speaker 3: historicity question is more about how accurate these sources are,

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Speaker 3: how to understand what they're talking about within its historical context,

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Speaker 3: and whether what they're talking about matches the idea of

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Speaker 3: the ninja that has come down to us.

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Speaker 2: That's right. Like in the last episode we talked about

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Speaker 2: how the basic idea, the image that instantly infiltrates your

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Speaker 2: mind concerning the ninja, of the black clad individual with

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Speaker 2: swords and so forth. This is largely a fiction. This

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Speaker 2: is largely are a creation of fiction and legend making.

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Speaker 3: But there is something lying underneath it, and we're going

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Speaker 3: to try to take a look at what that might be.

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Speaker 3: Right now, I want to mention again a major source

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Speaker 3: that I brought up in the last episode. This is

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Speaker 3: a book by Stephen Turnbull, who is a British historian

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Speaker 3: who's written a lot on the history of the ninja

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Speaker 3: and on Japanese history. The book is called Ninja Unmasking

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Speaker 3: the Myth from twenty seventeen, and specifically, in this section

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Speaker 3: we're about to do, I'm sort of relying on a

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Speaker 3: chapter of his book that's trying to trace the elusive,

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Speaker 3: underlying nature of what the ninja was and how that

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Speaker 3: relates to the ninja lore that came down. So to

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Speaker 3: refresh from last time, ninja or shinobi no mono are

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Speaker 3: two different ways of expressing the same idea. The core

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Speaker 3: idea is a person who sneaks, one who practices stealth, secrecy,

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Speaker 3: or hiddenness, or also, in one alternate reading of the word,

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Speaker 3: one who practices endurance or patience, which is an interesting

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Speaker 3: double loading of meaning on the term. While this term

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Speaker 3: can apply to a number of different activities in warfare,

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Speaker 3: a commonly cited equivalent in English would be something like

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Speaker 3: spy or secret agent. Now, as classically understood, ninja or

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Speaker 3: shinobi would be engaged in activities like spying across enemy lines,

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Speaker 3: infiltrating enemy strongholds, engaging in trickery and deception, sneak attacks

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Speaker 3: by night. Psychological warfare attempts to sew division within enemy

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Speaker 3: ranks like that. So it's actually a rather diverse set

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Speaker 3: of activities or duties that would fall to the ninja

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Speaker 3: or shnobi. But they're all in some way related to

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Speaker 3: some kind of hiddenness or deception or surprise.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, not all of them translate into the pop cultural

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Speaker 2: idea of the ninja. Like, I've never seen a ninja

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Speaker 2: movie where the ninja's main mission is to infiltrate the

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Speaker 2: enemy barracks and start bad talking the rice rations, you know,

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Speaker 2: being like, man, they really don't give us good rice,

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Speaker 2: and they'd give us a little of it. I can't

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Speaker 2: believe these guys. We should probably, you know, think twice

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Speaker 2: about fighting for them.

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Speaker 3: Oh but this, actually, yeah, this is perfectly in line

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Speaker 3: with what some historical uses of shnobi would refer to. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: the use of trying to sew division within enemy ranks

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Speaker 3: by using a double agent or a secret agent. Now,

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Speaker 3: one really important point is that when looking to our

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Speaker 3: earliest sources on the real shnobi of history, there is

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Speaker 3: a linguistic complication, which is that, as Steven Turnbull talks

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Speaker 3: about in his book in Historical Documents, Shinobi is not

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Speaker 3: only used as a noun, it can also be and

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Speaker 3: very often is, an adverb, meaning it's describing an action,

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Speaker 3: not a type of person, and the adverb form means

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Speaker 3: that a person, maybe anyone, not just a specialist, can

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Speaker 3: carry out an activity in a shinobi manner. So we

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Speaker 3: often understand ninja or its equivalent shinobi shinobi nomono as

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Speaker 3: a person who is specialized by training. It's a type

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Speaker 3: of person. But you do have lots of records of

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Speaker 3: groups of regular soldiers or other people carrying out a

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Speaker 3: shinobi attack on a castle or fortress, usually meaning a

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Speaker 3: sneak attack by night, or some of their secretive approach,

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Speaker 3: and this creates issues for historians. When you see a

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Speaker 3: story of somebody doing some kind of shinobi attack in

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Speaker 3: the adverb sense, do you count that as a story

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Speaker 3: of a shnoby as a noun as like a did

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Speaker 3: a ninja necessarily do that? Or is this the case

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Speaker 3: where we're using the equivalent of ninja to describe just

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Speaker 3: a way of doing something in secret, even if they're

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Speaker 3: not a specialist.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, this reminds me of a moment in

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Speaker 2: the recent adaptation of Showgun the excellent FX adaptation that

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Speaker 2: I have to recommend. In the pivotal scene where these

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Speaker 2: shanoby attack, if memory serves and I've only seen it once,

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Speaker 2: I believe the characters just exclaim like shnoby, and it's

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Speaker 2: maybe left a little vague that like they're just saying

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Speaker 2: like something shinoby is occurring, like sound the alarm shnobi

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Speaker 2: actions in progress.

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, that's interesting, And so that could refer to

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Speaker 3: any kind of like deception or surprise or hiddenness. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: But to come back to the idea of shinobi nomono,

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Speaker 3: the people who practice shinoby or hiddenness, we can again

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Speaker 3: just call them shinoby for short. To the extent that

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Speaker 3: they were historical specialists in spying and undercover warfare, when

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Speaker 3: did they flourish. There's a bit of complication here also

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Speaker 3: because you get some claims of earlier precedents. We're going

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Speaker 3: to talk about some of these later in this episode.

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Speaker 3: But the classical ninja, the classical shinobi are primarily associated

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Speaker 3: with the Singoku period, also known as the Warring States

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Speaker 3: period of Japanese history. This was a turbulent age of

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Speaker 3: roughly one hundred years, with fuzzy boundaries from the mid

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Speaker 3: fifteenth to the mid to late sixteenth century, characterized by

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Speaker 3: civil wars, rebellions, and revolts throughout Japan, and this time

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Speaker 3: came to a close as the country fell under the

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Speaker 3: central control of the Tokugawa Shogunate beginning around the seventeenth century.

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Speaker 3: So this time the Singoku period, the time of civil

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Speaker 3: wars in the fourteen hundreds to the fifteen hundreds, this

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Speaker 3: was the heyday of the historical ninja, and it's in

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Speaker 3: records of this time period that we'll find the history

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Speaker 3: basis of the ninja myth, if there is one. Now.

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Speaker 3: Turnbull raises a few very interesting questions about the historical

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Speaker 3: ninja from the Singoku period and how they relate to

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Speaker 3: received facts about the ninja that we've sort of gotten

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Speaker 3: from the tradition and lore that emerged over time. One

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Speaker 3: question that comes up is are the ninja uniquely Japanese?

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Speaker 3: Ninja are sometimes represented as a totally unique Japanese innovation

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Speaker 3: in secret warfare, but Turnbull disputes this, saying that if

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Speaker 3: you look at the types of activities that are attributed

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Speaker 3: to them in the sources that have some chance of

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Speaker 3: being historically accurate. They're similar to activities we see recorded

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Speaker 3: in all kinds of societies, in all large war fighting societies.

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Speaker 3: You might find similar records of activities in China, Mesopotamia,

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Speaker 3: and the Roman Empire.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely. This is something that the author's hero Yoda

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Speaker 2: and Matt All talk about in Ninja Attack True Tales

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Speaker 2: of Assassin Samuraian Outlaws, which is a book that I've

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Speaker 2: been turning to in research for this episode, and they

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Speaker 2: point out that you see shnobi like activities in such

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Speaker 2: cases as the Odyssey, you know, which of course is

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Speaker 2: a is a literary work, but still like the most

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Speaker 2: one of the more believable aspects of the Odyssey is,

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Speaker 2: say the example of Odysseus dresses as a beggar to

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Speaker 2: sneak into the walls of Troy.

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Speaker 3: Oh, yeah, you include the Iliad. I would also say,

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Speaker 3: like the Trojan Horse seems like a very ninja or

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Speaker 3: Shanobi type ploy.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely. They also point to the episode in the Bible

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Speaker 2: where Joshuason's a pair of secret agents into the walled

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Speaker 2: city of Jericho, and you know, just looking around, there

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Speaker 2: are also accounts of espionage under King Hammurabi of the

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Speaker 2: Second millennium BCE Babylon. They're apparently accounts from ancient Egypt.

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Speaker 2: And we've already mentioned the art of war, but the third,

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Speaker 2: the ancient third century BCE to third century CE Sanskrit

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Speaker 2: text the Arastra, also speaks of it. So again, yeah,

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Speaker 2: the Japanese didn't invent secrecy, assassination, espionage, and all these

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Speaker 2: other related activities. It just emerges universally as just part

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Speaker 2: of human conflict.

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Speaker 3: But there are some i think cultural details that will

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Speaker 3: attach themselves to the Ninja myth as it develops that

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Speaker 3: are more unique, and we'll talk about those as we

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Speaker 3: go on. Another thing Turnbull points out is that there

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Speaker 3: are references to spying during warfare in Japanese texts from

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Speaker 3: before the Singoku period. One example is a text called

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Speaker 3: the Shomunkey, which is from the tenth century, and it

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Speaker 3: tells the story of a rebel named Taira Masakato, and

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Speaker 3: in this record, his enemy hires a spy named Koha Rumaru,

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Speaker 3: who infiltrates Masakado's stronghold with one companion, makes notes of

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Speaker 3: its layout and defensive capabilities, and then sends the companion

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Speaker 3: back to their employer with the information. But in this

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Speaker 3: story the dangers of spying are made clear because the

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Speaker 3: spy's employer uses the information, the information acquired by the

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Speaker 3: spy to launch a night attack, which fails. Masakado and

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Speaker 3: his rebels fight off the attack, and this leads to

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Speaker 3: the spy being exposed and executed. And there are plenty

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Speaker 3: of other early examples of stories of people who go

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Speaker 3: into enemy terrain or inside an enemy castle or fortification,

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Speaker 3: make a note of the layout, and then report back

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Speaker 3: to outside conspirators. So this is a common form of spying,

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Speaker 3: a very important thing in warfare. That's a little bit

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Speaker 3: less what you imagine if you know, you're thinking of

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Speaker 3: the ninja as like a martial artist, someone who goes

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Speaker 3: in and sort of does daring individual violence. A lot

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Speaker 3: of spying is just making note of information and getting

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Speaker 3: it back outside.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, in this reminds me of one thing we talked

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Speaker 2: about in the last episode about the different classifications according

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Speaker 2: to sun Zoo of the spy and how there are

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Speaker 2: different things you dare ask of your different level of

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Speaker 2: espionage operative. And so it's a much I mean, it's

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Speaker 2: still highly dangerous, but it's one thing to say, I

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Speaker 2: need you to make a small map and report back,

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Speaker 2: as opposed to I need you to switch out a

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Speaker 2: drink or stab someone in the back with a dag

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Speaker 2: or that sort of thing.

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Speaker 3: Right, So, spying both within and outside Japan predates any

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Speaker 3: concept of specialized ninja training, and it would have been

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Speaker 3: influenced by literature such as the Chinese classic The Art

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Speaker 3: of War, which you just brought up. I mentioned The

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Speaker 3: Art of War in the previous episode because of this

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Speaker 3: section about the five different kinds of secret agents. But

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Speaker 3: there is plenty of evidence that Japanese political and military leaders,

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Speaker 3: including the Samurai aristocracy, were widely familiar with this work

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Speaker 3: and others like it. Just one interesting example that stood

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Speaker 3: out to me that Turnbull sites there's a story about

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Speaker 3: an eleventh century Samurai hero named Minimoto Yoshi who used

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Speaker 3: a clue he had learned from reading the Art of

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Speaker 3: War to anticipate in ambush. The clue was that he

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Speaker 3: noticed birds rising startled from a thicket of forest, and

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Speaker 3: he knew that this meant his enemies were settling into

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Speaker 3: hiding there to launch a trap. So, therefore, Turnbull says,

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Speaker 3: there's ample evidence that Japan's long history of spying and

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Speaker 3: undercover warfare techniques are not uniquely Japanese, as some sources

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Speaker 3: have claimed, but was in part at least influenced by

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Speaker 3: Chinese military wisdom already in print for centuries, and the

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Speaker 3: fact that it goes back so far means that of

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Speaker 3: course people were spying before there was a concept of

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Speaker 3: the new ninja that emerges in the Singoku period. Now

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Speaker 3: there's another thing this chapter addresses that I think is interesting,

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Speaker 3: and that's the idea of ninja or shanobi as a

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Speaker 3: hereditary elite. Part of the received ninja mythology is about

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Speaker 3: specialization and lineage. It's the idea that undercover warfare techniques

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Speaker 3: in Japan were practiced exclusively by quote a highly skilled,

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Speaker 3: hereditary core of elite warriors called shinobi, and that ninjutsu,

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Speaker 3: the practices of the ninja, were the exclusive domain of

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Speaker 3: these warrior elites. They were sort of medieval commandos with

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Speaker 3: a hereditary component. And this vision of shinobi also implies

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Speaker 3: that they may have had some kind of social elite

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Speaker 3: status as well, that they were a kind of super samurai,

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Speaker 3: surpassing ordinary samurai warrior elites in the techniques of covert warfare,

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Speaker 3: like infiltrating secure locations and causing disruption inside enemy ranks,

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Speaker 3: and all the other stuff we've already mentioned. But as

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Speaker 3: we brought up in the last episode, there are some

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Speaker 3: serious reasons for doubting the idea of shinobi as these

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Speaker 3: hereditary elites. The accounts of shnobi activities taking place during

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Speaker 3: the Japanese Civil Wars generally do not make any reference

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Speaker 3: to the idea of specialized elite warriors, certainly not from

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Speaker 3: a social elite, and so shnobi activities may be carried

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Speaker 3: out by regular samurai or by soldiers, but in other

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Speaker 3: cases by people who are quite clearly associated with the

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Speaker 3: lower classes. There is good reason to believe that the

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Speaker 3: historical ninja were more likely from the lower classes, and

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Speaker 3: in some cases even thought of as criminals, and this

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Speaker 3: does raise a different kind of elite status that Turnbull

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Speaker 3: goes into depth about the idea of ninja as a

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Speaker 3: criminal elite, but this gets complicated too. Many accounts describing

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Speaker 3: covert military activity of the Singoku period use terms that

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Speaker 3: are also used to describe common crime. One example is

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Speaker 3: the Japanese term seto, which normally means thieves. Turnbull cites

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Speaker 3: a sixteen fifty three military manual called the Gunpo Geoshu,

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Speaker 3: which says quote, if a daimyo does not have a

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Speaker 3: seto serving under him, then no matter how good he is,

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Speaker 3: he will know nothing of his enemy's dispositions. So this

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Speaker 3: appears to be describing the work of a ninja as

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Speaker 3: a spy, but uses a common word for thief. Does

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Speaker 3: this indicate some kind of historical overlap. Perhaps, and there

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Speaker 3: are some good reasons for thinking that there is actual

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Speaker 3: direct overlap between ninja in warfare and criminal gangs. But

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Speaker 3: another possibility is that the idea of a thief or

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Speaker 3: a bandit is in the eye of the beholder, and

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Speaker 3: that designation is class related. So to illustrate that turnbul

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Speaker 3: inclincludes a text from the fourteenth century. This is the Minaiki,

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Speaker 3: compiled in thirteen forty eight, and this is a longer section,

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Speaker 3: but it reads as follows. Various kinds of disturbing events

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Speaker 3: occurred around the eras of Choan and Kingen, with rebellions,

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Speaker 3: coastal piracy, raids, robbery, mountain banditree pillaging, and so on

295
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Speaker 3: happening all over the place. They disguised themselves in an

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Speaker 3: unusual way by wearing yellowish brown clothes and a ropagassa

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Speaker 3: hat like a woman's instead of an aboshie, which is

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Speaker 3: a type of cap or hat, and not showing their faces.

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Speaker 3: Individuals who congregated in groups of between ten and twenty

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Speaker 3: men wore swords that had no ornamentation, with rough quivers

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Speaker 3: on their backs and bamboo poles for spears, and neither

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Speaker 3: helmet nor armor. They withdrew to castles and took on

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Speaker 3: their enemies there, or they won over an enemy but

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Speaker 3: then betrayed him, committing themselves to nothing. They were fond

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Speaker 3: of gaming and gambling, and the behaved like shinobi canusu,

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Speaker 3: meaning sneak thieves.

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Speaker 2: This reminds me of something we talked about in the

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Speaker 2: last episode, the idea that you have less historical accounts

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Speaker 2: of shanobi in part because you wanted your stories to

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Speaker 2: be about the aristocratic samurai, the brave exploits of the samurai,

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Speaker 2: not in the upper class samurai, as opposed to the

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Speaker 2: potentially shameful but necessary activities of essentially sneak thieves, as

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Speaker 2: we're saying here, bandits and pirates exactly.

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Speaker 3: And this could also give rise to the idea of

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Speaker 3: ninja as a kind of super samurai.

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Speaker 2: You know. Having mentioned piracy now in that quote you read,

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Speaker 2: this does make me see some strong similarities to what

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Speaker 2: has occurred with pirates as well in popular culture. Like

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Speaker 2: the modern pop culture idea of a pirate is rather

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Speaker 2: far removed from the reality of the pirate in many ways.

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Speaker 2: It is a romantic size them to a degree that

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Speaker 2: would not have matched up with the reality of living

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Speaker 2: during their heyday.

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, certainly. But then I want to raise a question,

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Speaker 3: because this applies somewhat to piracy as well. What is

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Speaker 3: the difference between a pirate or a privateer and a

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Speaker 3: naval vessel that seizes other ships from an enemy country

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Speaker 3: and takes on their goods and takes prisoners and so forth.

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Speaker 3: Sometimes these boundaries might be a little blurrier than you

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Speaker 3: would think, And the same applies here. So in contemporary records,

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Speaker 3: these groups that I was just talking about in that

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Speaker 3: passage I read a second ago, they are referred to

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Speaker 3: with terms meaning thieves or bandits. You know, they're disreputable,

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Speaker 3: they're sneak thieves. But twenty years after the passage I

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Speaker 3: just read, Turnbull says that these gangs are described quite

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Speaker 3: differently as horsemen, wearing finely decorated armor and weapons inlaid

337
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Speaker 3: with gold or silk, organized and loyal to their leader.

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Speaker 3: So sounds a lot more like the way that local

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Speaker 3: warriors who are simply in rebellion against a distant feudal

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Speaker 3: authority would be described let more like warriors and an

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Speaker 3: organized political authority, and less just like a criminal gang.

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Speaker 3: And so Turnbull concludes that there is some blurring of

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Speaker 3: the lines between warriors and criminals depending on who is

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Speaker 3: writing the account. Higher class authors would look down on

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Speaker 3: warriors of a lower level local uprising and classify them

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Speaker 3: not as worthy warriors. You know, this is not a

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Speaker 3: political conflict. These are bandits or pirates, and so a

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Speaker 3: similar thing could be going on with later records from

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Speaker 3: the Singoku period, which sometimes refer to people who by

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Speaker 3: description are functioning as spies and secret agents, but are

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Speaker 3: referred to as thieves or criminals. So it's possible that

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Speaker 3: in some cases Shenoby warriors were perceived or described as

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Speaker 3: bandits by a contemptuous higher class authority. However, it's also

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Speaker 3: possible that in many cases actual bandits were recruited to

355
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Speaker 3: warfare and served as shnobi. So This also brings up

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Speaker 3: the question of shinobi as mercenaries. So a mercenary is

357
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Speaker 3: generally understood as a soldier who is hired to fight

358
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Speaker 3: for a land that is not their own, and records

359
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Speaker 3: of the use of mercenaries in this sense in the

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Speaker 3: Sengoku warfare are mostly limited to shnobi type activities. We

361
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Speaker 3: don't really read of hired mercenaries doing the work of

362
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Speaker 3: the samurai, you know, like supposedly honorable face to face warfare,

363
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Speaker 3: leading cavalry charges and so forth. Instead, it seems that

364
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Speaker 3: mercenaries were used for sneak attacks and dirty tricks. So

365
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Speaker 3: you might have a daimyo who has his own regular

366
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Speaker 3: soldiers that are fighting on the battlefield and defending fortresses,

367
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Speaker 3: but in addition to that, the daimyo might pay local

368
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Speaker 3: criminals to do high risk activities, including shnobi activities like spying,

369
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Speaker 3: sneak attacks, false flags, and psychological warfare, as well as

370
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Speaker 3: less shnoby coated high risk maneuvers like covering the retreat

371
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Speaker 3: of regular troops and Turnbull suggests that this also militates

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Speaker 3: against the super samurai interpretation of ninja, since records indicate

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Speaker 3: that these warriors were often seen as crude, low class,

374
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Speaker 3: and expendable, and these warriors were also implicated in very

375
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Speaker 3: sordid types of activities like slave harvesting, raiding villages, and

376
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Speaker 3: kidnapping people into slavery. And so from all this Turnbull

377
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Speaker 3: concludes that the sort of super samurai hereditary elite interpretation

378
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Speaker 3: of ninja's is not based in history. That they were

379
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Speaker 3: not from a social elite to the extent that they existed,

380
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Speaker 3: but there clearly were people carrying out these activities at

381
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Speaker 3: the time, and that if we're trying to figure out

382
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Speaker 3: what their identity was, it may very well be that

383
00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:11,480
Speaker 3: there was significant overlap with crime, or at least that

384
00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:15,399
Speaker 3: many of them were lower class warriors who were looked

385
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Speaker 3: down upon by the social elites and in some cases

386
00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:22,359
Speaker 3: had some criminal experience or criminal skills such as piracy

387
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Speaker 3: or burglary or banditry. Now another important note on the

388
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Speaker 3: changing meaning of shinobi after the Singoku period. Again, remember

389
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Speaker 3: so after this you get the Unification period under the

390
00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:38,159
Speaker 3: Tokugawa Shogunate. This is also known as the Edo period.

391
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Speaker 3: During this time, there are lots of references to contemporary

392
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Speaker 3: people called shinobi, but in this time period they are

393
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Speaker 3: not at all the ninja you have in mind, and

394
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Speaker 3: they're also not the ninja we were just thinking we

395
00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:56,760
Speaker 3: were just talking about that are engaging in secrecy during warfare. Instead,

396
00:24:57,040 --> 00:25:01,120
Speaker 3: the shanobi of the Tokugawa period were a official agents

397
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Speaker 3: of the central government, which ruled the country by martial law,

398
00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:08,800
Speaker 3: and the duties of these agents included rooting out dissent

399
00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:12,880
Speaker 3: and disloyalty among the people. So in reality, their function

400
00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:16,600
Speaker 3: at this time was more like a secret police than

401
00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:20,120
Speaker 3: a class of secret agents turnbull rights quote. They were

402
00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:24,160
Speaker 3: engaged instead in sordid tasks such as listening to gossip

403
00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:27,520
Speaker 3: through keyholes, ready to denounce their victims and give them

404
00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:32,120
Speaker 3: over to torture and confession. So that's a very different

405
00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:35,119
Speaker 3: take on the idea of shenoby that the same term

406
00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:38,719
Speaker 3: is being used here to describe this very different orientation.

407
00:25:39,560 --> 00:25:44,720
Speaker 3: But strangely, this is also when this subsequent literature mythologizing

408
00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:47,320
Speaker 3: the ninja from the earlier period.

409
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Speaker 2: Sort of emerges fascinating and this ties into I mentioned

410
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Speaker 2: in the last episode that when I recently traveled to Japan,

411
00:25:55,119 --> 00:25:59,000
Speaker 2: I got to see some historic sites associated with the

412
00:25:59,040 --> 00:26:03,399
Speaker 2: shanobi with Ani, and one of them bears mentioned right

413
00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:07,280
Speaker 2: here because when I was visiting the grounds of the

414
00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:12,040
Speaker 2: Imperial Palace in Tokyo, there is a place known as

415
00:26:12,119 --> 00:26:16,119
Speaker 2: the hyakunen Bansho Guard House. It's located in the East

416
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Speaker 2: gardens and it was the headquarters of the Hyakun and

417
00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:24,440
Speaker 2: Gumi teams that protected Edo. This would have housed samurai

418
00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:27,560
Speaker 2: but also ninja and it served as a checkpoint in

419
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Speaker 2: guard house. So the historical situation here is that in

420
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Speaker 2: fifteen ninety, when the warlord Tokugawa Ayasu began fortifying the

421
00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:42,639
Speaker 2: fishing village that would become Edo modern day Tokyo, he

422
00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:48,320
Speaker 2: had already integrated shanobi into his personal army, allegedly in

423
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Speaker 2: special forces roles, and we had the caveat there based

424
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Speaker 2: on everything we've been discussing here. But then during the

425
00:26:57,400 --> 00:27:00,640
Speaker 2: Edo period they took on new roles, so he formed

426
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Speaker 2: them into one hundred man platoons or Hayakun and gumi

427
00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:07,479
Speaker 2: and charge they were charged not with espionage, not with

428
00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:09,800
Speaker 2: again what we would think of is ninja activities or

429
00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:13,439
Speaker 2: even these more like sort of criminal mercenary activities. Uh,

430
00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:17,000
Speaker 2: but they were discharged with roles involved in protecting the

431
00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:22,239
Speaker 2: city using modern flintlock rifles and using them potentially at

432
00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:25,639
Speaker 2: fortified positions. So Yoda and all compare them to like

433
00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:28,800
Speaker 2: a kind of like homeland Security and Secret Service rolled

434
00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:31,720
Speaker 2: into one. So, like you said earlier, kind of like

435
00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:36,560
Speaker 2: a secret police manning checkpoints, checking papers, and you know,

436
00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:40,720
Speaker 2: also keeping keeping an ear open for anything they need

437
00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:41,760
Speaker 2: to pass up the chain.

438
00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:54,680
Speaker 3: So it's interesting to uh to really trace the evolution

439
00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:57,400
Speaker 3: of the concept here and to dig through these sources

440
00:27:57,440 --> 00:28:00,320
Speaker 3: to try to find the foundation of it in real history.

441
00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:03,359
Speaker 3: But despite all of these caveats about like what the

442
00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:06,160
Speaker 3: real ninja were to the extent that they really existed,

443
00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:10,560
Speaker 3: and where these stories come from, I think we would

444
00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:14,439
Speaker 3: really be remiss if we denied ourselves just delving headfirst

445
00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:19,320
Speaker 3: into the ninja legend and just exploring some of the anecdotes,

446
00:28:19,359 --> 00:28:21,200
Speaker 3: whatever their basis in real history.

447
00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:25,560
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, so we should probably begin with the what

448
00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:30,720
Speaker 2: is in some accounts, the first ninja of Japanese traditions. Again,

449
00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:36,480
Speaker 2: this is impossible to define from a realistic standpoint, Like again,

450
00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:42,240
Speaker 2: like nobody invented espionage, per se, no one invented assassination

451
00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:46,240
Speaker 2: and so forth. But according to Japanese traditions. There was

452
00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:50,600
Speaker 2: an individual named a Tomo who would have served the

453
00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:55,720
Speaker 2: semi legendary regent by the name of Prince Shotaku, who

454
00:28:55,760 --> 00:28:57,640
Speaker 2: was also known by various other names, and he would

455
00:28:57,640 --> 00:29:02,040
Speaker 2: have lived five seventy four through six two. See he now,

456
00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:06,360
Speaker 2: given his era and his status, he's attributed with a

457
00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:09,680
Speaker 2: vast number of things. We've encountered situations like this before

458
00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:13,240
Speaker 2: in various cultures where you have a significantly old and

459
00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:16,880
Speaker 2: semi legendary leader, they're going to be associated with various

460
00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:19,400
Speaker 2: you know, it can be things even straight up magical

461
00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:23,480
Speaker 2: and mythological acts or culture bearing acts, or you get

462
00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:25,680
Speaker 2: the idea in many cases where it's like somebody who

463
00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:28,600
Speaker 2: worked for them invented something or something was invented in

464
00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:32,680
Speaker 2: their era, and therefore they are now the inventor. Ah yes,

465
00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:38,880
Speaker 2: and so Shataku is. He's been attributed as promoting the

466
00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:41,640
Speaker 2: spread of Buddhism. Okay, fair enough, It'd said that he

467
00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:45,880
Speaker 2: was an excellent multitasker, which I've read nobody is maybe,

468
00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:49,880
Speaker 2: I mean, I guess maybe maybe he was an okay multitasker.

469
00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:51,360
Speaker 2: But I've also read that it might have to do

470
00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:54,480
Speaker 2: with like, just like how many different streams of information

471
00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:57,720
Speaker 2: were coming to him or something. But also the idea

472
00:29:57,760 --> 00:30:00,280
Speaker 2: that he invented sushi coo, which I I think is

473
00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:05,920
Speaker 2: quite questionable. I how many culinary inventions can truly be

474
00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:10,360
Speaker 2: attributed to rulers, you know, in kings and emperors and

475
00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:14,120
Speaker 2: so forth. Generally it's more of a bottom up sort

476
00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:20,560
Speaker 2: of situation with culinary invention. Yeah, but anyway, a Tomo

477
00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:26,040
Speaker 2: was a regent, He served Empress Suiko, and he was

478
00:30:26,040 --> 00:30:29,320
Speaker 2: an early Japanese proponent of Sun Zu's The Art of War,

479
00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:31,960
Speaker 2: which we know we've been talking about as being a

480
00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:37,560
Speaker 2: text that definitely values and quantifies the and defines the

481
00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:41,160
Speaker 2: different forms of espionage that are important for any kind

482
00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:42,360
Speaker 2: of like military operation.

483
00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:46,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, and places a lot of importance on spies. Doesn't

484
00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:48,280
Speaker 3: just say like, here are the types of spies to use,

485
00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:50,920
Speaker 3: but it's like, make sure you use your spies. You

486
00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:54,960
Speaker 3: should never fight a battle until you have adequately discovered

487
00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:56,360
Speaker 3: all of your enemy's secrets.

488
00:30:56,560 --> 00:30:59,560
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah. Again, it's like, you know, you may

489
00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:01,680
Speaker 2: not like thieves, but you need thieves. You know, you're

490
00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:05,400
Speaker 2: not going to win this battle or this war via

491
00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:10,200
Speaker 2: bravery and nobility alone. So Prince Chautaku is said to

492
00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:14,520
Speaker 2: have dubbed O Tomo, this shnobi individual as Shenobi along

493
00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:18,280
Speaker 2: with his operatives, and they aided him in surviving against

494
00:31:18,280 --> 00:31:22,680
Speaker 2: a vast enemy army that outnumbered them seemingly via some

495
00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:25,880
Speaker 2: specific shanobi tricks. I don't know that we really have

496
00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:28,720
Speaker 2: an idea what those tricks were, but Yoda and all

497
00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:31,440
Speaker 2: point out that their suspicion that they might have involved

498
00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:34,840
Speaker 2: tricking the enemy into thinking their forces were more numerous

499
00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:38,800
Speaker 2: than they actually were. Like, they point to some other

500
00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:42,719
Speaker 2: examples of this that may be connected, such as dressing

501
00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:45,520
Speaker 2: civilians up in armor or making them look more or

502
00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:49,360
Speaker 2: less like soldiers, sort of putting extras in place so

503
00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:52,400
Speaker 2: that your forces look greater than they are. So yeah,

504
00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:56,360
Speaker 2: total Shanobi move, and so in ninja traditions. In ninja

505
00:31:56,400 --> 00:31:59,080
Speaker 2: culture and pop culture, a tomo would come to be

506
00:31:59,120 --> 00:32:02,800
Speaker 2: described as the first ninja. The info maybe scant, but

507
00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:05,400
Speaker 2: yet it sounds like a tomo was more in line

508
00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:07,560
Speaker 2: with what we think of is kind of like a

509
00:32:07,560 --> 00:32:13,000
Speaker 2: master of spies, a misinformation manager, and so forth. I

510
00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:15,880
Speaker 2: should also point out that a Tomo is apparently also

511
00:32:15,920 --> 00:32:19,040
Speaker 2: the name of one of the android ninjas in RoboCop three,

512
00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:24,360
Speaker 2: Ninja culture, you know, spreads far and wide. It's irresistible.

513
00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:27,400
Speaker 3: Did these ninjas have rocket boots or something? Were they

514
00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:28,240
Speaker 3: rocket ninjas?

515
00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:31,800
Speaker 2: I don't know. They had swords? I think they you know,

516
00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:34,440
Speaker 2: it's been a very long time since I watched RoboCop three.

517
00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:38,080
Speaker 2: I think maybe RoboCop had rocket boots or some sort

518
00:32:38,120 --> 00:32:40,080
Speaker 2: of rocket system that he used to fly.

519
00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:42,960
Speaker 3: Oh no, do we have to watch RoboCop three for

520
00:32:43,040 --> 00:32:47,960
Speaker 3: weird house? I don't know, investigations for another time.

521
00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:50,960
Speaker 2: Yeah. So in this book, Ninja Attack True Tales of

522
00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:54,600
Speaker 2: assassin Samurai Outlaws. As the title suggests, it's not all

523
00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:58,480
Speaker 2: just about ninjas. It kind of spreads out to ninja

524
00:32:58,520 --> 00:33:04,920
Speaker 2: adjacent characters and roles. So it looks at historical and

525
00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:08,280
Speaker 2: legendary figures that have, through one way or another, become

526
00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:13,240
Speaker 2: associated with ninja tradition. Many of them are only vaguely shinobi,

527
00:33:13,840 --> 00:33:16,920
Speaker 2: and they may fit the mold of the latter day

528
00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:19,680
Speaker 2: met ninja myth one way or the other, but not directly. So,

529
00:33:19,760 --> 00:33:21,240
Speaker 2: you know, you have some characters in there that are

530
00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:24,840
Speaker 2: just great warriors. You have some that are definite assassins

531
00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:31,160
Speaker 2: or would be assassins. Spymasters and also wizards and magic users.

532
00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:34,640
Speaker 3: Oh and I don't recall if we've brought this up

533
00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:37,360
Speaker 3: yet in the series or not, but one thing to

534
00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:42,320
Speaker 3: absolutely understand is that a lot of early ninja legend

535
00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:47,960
Speaker 3: and references to ninjutsu the practice of a ninja are

536
00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:49,520
Speaker 3: clearly magical in nature.

537
00:33:49,960 --> 00:33:53,280
Speaker 2: Yes, And one of the best examples of that is

538
00:33:53,640 --> 00:33:56,160
Speaker 2: the fictional character who had go on to become just

539
00:33:56,360 --> 00:33:59,840
Speaker 2: a staple of ninja pop culture, especially in Japan, is Jerai.

540
00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:03,480
Speaker 2: So Juriah was the protagonist of an eighteen oh six

541
00:34:03,560 --> 00:34:10,840
Speaker 2: book by kanwate Onataki. But modern ninja fans probably wouldn't

542
00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:15,160
Speaker 2: have even recognized Jeria as a ninja because, on one hand,

543
00:34:15,160 --> 00:34:17,960
Speaker 2: the all black ninja garb had not been invented yet,

544
00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:21,520
Speaker 2: that wasn't a part of the of the genre yet.

545
00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:24,279
Speaker 2: And at this point in Ninja Lord, they were, as

546
00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:27,480
Speaker 2: we've been discussing, far more associated with dark magic. They

547
00:34:27,520 --> 00:34:29,600
Speaker 2: were more likely to use some sort of a spell

548
00:34:29,680 --> 00:34:32,160
Speaker 2: against you than to bust out, you know, some sort

549
00:34:32,160 --> 00:34:37,920
Speaker 2: of martial arts attack. And so Juriah was a just

550
00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:40,440
Speaker 2: a kimono wearing like he's just describes wearing kimono's just

551
00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:44,400
Speaker 2: wearing like regular clothes. Robin hood like character. He was

552
00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:47,840
Speaker 2: a robber with a heart of gold and the magical

553
00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:52,120
Speaker 2: ability to summon a giant, mighty phantom toad that served

554
00:34:52,160 --> 00:34:52,840
Speaker 2: as his steed.

555
00:34:53,560 --> 00:34:56,400
Speaker 3: That is so much cooler than the now cliche idea

556
00:34:56,400 --> 00:34:59,040
Speaker 3: of someone riding a dragon, writing a dragon. I've seen

557
00:34:59,080 --> 00:35:01,640
Speaker 3: it a million times. Dragon's already sort of like a

558
00:35:01,680 --> 00:35:03,600
Speaker 3: horse anyway. I don't know why, don't ask me why.

559
00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:06,080
Speaker 3: It just is dragon's kind of like a horse riding

560
00:35:06,120 --> 00:35:07,480
Speaker 3: a toad. That's different.

561
00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:12,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, not only this, he had a sidekick who was

562
00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:16,160
Speaker 2: a female master of slug magic, and they battled an

563
00:35:16,160 --> 00:35:19,040
Speaker 2: evil master of snake magic and so Yoda an alt

564
00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:21,360
Speaker 2: stress that there's kind of like a rock paper scissors

565
00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:25,279
Speaker 2: scenario here in this magic system. Brandon Sanderson may get

566
00:35:25,280 --> 00:35:27,960
Speaker 2: a lot of credit for his complex magical systems and

567
00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:33,320
Speaker 2: his novels, but does he have snake toad slug level

568
00:35:33,320 --> 00:35:35,719
Speaker 2: of magic here? Because basically the way it works is

569
00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:41,080
Speaker 2: that snakes beat toads, Slugs beat snakes, and toads beat slugs,

570
00:35:41,520 --> 00:35:43,160
Speaker 2: and that's the way the magic system works.

571
00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:47,960
Speaker 3: What yeah, how do the slugs beat snakes?

572
00:35:48,360 --> 00:35:50,239
Speaker 2: They just do Okay, they just do. It's just it's

573
00:35:50,320 --> 00:35:53,560
Speaker 2: just how reality works. I don't know, that's just science.

574
00:35:54,400 --> 00:35:59,320
Speaker 2: But Juriah has remained a strong part of Japanese pop culture,

575
00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:04,760
Speaker 2: enjoying multiple retellings and apparently factors into the popular anime Naruto,

576
00:36:05,320 --> 00:36:08,239
Speaker 2: which I think I've only watched one episode of, so

577
00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:10,400
Speaker 2: I didn't get in deep enough to see all of

578
00:36:10,440 --> 00:36:13,320
Speaker 2: the threads. But so many of these characters in Japanese

579
00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:17,240
Speaker 2: ninja pop culture, they end up emerging and re emerging,

580
00:36:17,280 --> 00:36:20,200
Speaker 2: you know, people keep diving back in and re exploring

581
00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:25,160
Speaker 2: them and reinventing them. But yeah, Jiiah seems to have

582
00:36:25,239 --> 00:36:30,520
Speaker 2: been a very pivotal figure in ninja fiction, igniting a

583
00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:34,879
Speaker 2: huge ninja fad around eighteen thirty nine. This is when

584
00:36:34,920 --> 00:36:38,000
Speaker 2: an illustrated publication of the text in question came out,

585
00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:41,240
Speaker 2: and you ended up with like thirty years of sequels

586
00:36:41,280 --> 00:36:46,359
Speaker 2: following that, along with various imitators, theater adaptations, and there

587
00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:50,560
Speaker 2: was eventually a nineteen twenty one film version. A film

588
00:36:50,560 --> 00:36:54,520
Speaker 2: adaptation of this story called Juria the Hero sometimes cited

589
00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:58,120
Speaker 2: is the first tokusatsu or special effects movie, and Joe

590
00:36:58,239 --> 00:37:00,279
Speaker 2: I have not seen it myself, but I include a

591
00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:02,920
Speaker 2: still from it here where you can see a giant

592
00:37:02,960 --> 00:37:04,920
Speaker 2: phantom toe jumping into battle.

593
00:37:04,960 --> 00:37:08,239
Speaker 3: I believe, my god, that's so good. And I just

594
00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:10,120
Speaker 3: looked at it. I think I have found a stream

595
00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:12,680
Speaker 3: of this online, so we could watch it. We could

596
00:37:12,680 --> 00:37:13,720
Speaker 3: watch it for Weird House.

597
00:37:13,880 --> 00:37:16,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, I believe it's a twenty one minute film. So yeah,

598
00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:18,360
Speaker 2: it looks like there are some streams.

599
00:37:19,840 --> 00:37:21,520
Speaker 3: Okay, that's that's going on the list.

600
00:37:21,960 --> 00:37:23,799
Speaker 2: They mentioned that they so the book goes into a

601
00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:28,040
Speaker 2: lot of the other ways that the fictional world of

602
00:37:28,080 --> 00:37:30,640
Speaker 2: the ninja grew and spread. You know, later on during

603
00:37:30,640 --> 00:37:34,920
Speaker 2: the early nineteen tens, the novel Sorrow Toobe Saske was

604
00:37:34,920 --> 00:37:37,880
Speaker 2: a big ninja hit, still leaning more heavily on the

605
00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:40,600
Speaker 2: magical aspects of the ninja, and then you would just

606
00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:44,279
Speaker 2: get an additional ninja revivals that would occur in like

607
00:37:44,360 --> 00:37:48,520
Speaker 2: the fifties and sixties. And I think those those waves

608
00:37:48,680 --> 00:37:51,319
Speaker 2: will continue and you still see it continuing today. Like

609
00:37:51,719 --> 00:37:54,640
Speaker 2: ninjas have not gone away. It's not like everyone's like, hey,

610
00:37:54,680 --> 00:37:57,080
Speaker 2: do you remember ninja movies? Like, no, they're still around.

611
00:37:57,160 --> 00:37:59,719
Speaker 2: This ninja video game is still around, but they'll still

612
00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:02,880
Speaker 2: be an occasional like big hit that comes out and

613
00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:06,880
Speaker 2: it reminds everyone just how awesome ninja fiction really is.

614
00:38:07,480 --> 00:38:11,319
Speaker 3: So the way I understand it, it's this revival of

615
00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:14,320
Speaker 3: interest in the ninja through these like novels and stories

616
00:38:14,320 --> 00:38:17,640
Speaker 3: and movies in roughly the fifties and the sixties that

617
00:38:17,920 --> 00:38:22,120
Speaker 3: give way to the international, especially in English speaking markets,

618
00:38:22,120 --> 00:38:23,520
Speaker 3: obsession with the ninja.

619
00:38:23,680 --> 00:38:27,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, it does make me wonder, like, outside of Japan

620
00:38:27,480 --> 00:38:31,200
Speaker 2: an international level, what would happen if you had like

621
00:38:31,280 --> 00:38:36,720
Speaker 2: a true, like sort of revitalization of the black magic

622
00:38:36,800 --> 00:38:40,600
Speaker 2: aspect of ninja. You know, that might be interesting, But again,

623
00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:44,560
Speaker 2: that seems to have never completely gone away in Japanese

624
00:38:44,600 --> 00:38:45,360
Speaker 2: media itself.

625
00:38:45,640 --> 00:38:48,640
Speaker 3: I think it's halfway there in some American ninja media,

626
00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:52,200
Speaker 3: Like it's not fully the case that we're seeing ninja

627
00:38:52,239 --> 00:38:55,960
Speaker 3: as like sorcerers doing spells and writing spectral toads, but

628
00:38:56,080 --> 00:38:59,920
Speaker 3: there's more a kind of vague mysticism to them, you know,

629
00:39:00,200 --> 00:39:03,080
Speaker 3: like that they're portrayed in a way where you wonder

630
00:39:03,239 --> 00:39:05,040
Speaker 3: if they are capable of magic.

631
00:39:05,480 --> 00:39:08,000
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, And I guess one has to acknowledge Mortal

632
00:39:08,080 --> 00:39:11,640
Speaker 2: Kombat ninjas, though I think in some cases I'm always

633
00:39:11,680 --> 00:39:14,719
Speaker 2: a little foggy on how everything works in Mortal k

634
00:39:14,880 --> 00:39:16,200
Speaker 2: I think some of those characters are supposed to be

635
00:39:16,280 --> 00:39:20,879
Speaker 2: Chinese as opposed to Japanese, but then they're clearly embracing

636
00:39:21,200 --> 00:39:25,920
Speaker 2: like Japanese ninja pop culture. But yeah, you have characters

637
00:39:25,920 --> 00:39:28,400
Speaker 2: that are clearly ninjas that are also doing things like

638
00:39:28,440 --> 00:39:32,400
Speaker 2: throwing fireballs or freeze balls or whatever the heck.

639
00:39:32,560 --> 00:39:36,080
Speaker 3: Are like Scorpion and sub Zero interpreted. I never even

640
00:39:36,120 --> 00:39:39,680
Speaker 3: thought about the nationality of those characters. Are they implied

641
00:39:39,680 --> 00:39:43,000
Speaker 3: to be Japanese? I thought it was like Lu Kang

642
00:39:43,120 --> 00:39:45,399
Speaker 3: is a Shalan warrior, isn't he right?

643
00:39:45,640 --> 00:39:49,880
Speaker 2: Right? And I believe at least originally sub Zero was

644
00:39:49,880 --> 00:39:52,680
Speaker 2: supposed to be Chinese. But this is Mortal Kombat. It

645
00:39:53,000 --> 00:39:57,719
Speaker 2: plays very fast and loose with its source materials here

646
00:39:57,719 --> 00:40:01,480
Speaker 2: to create its own strange universe, which I love. But again,

647
00:40:02,640 --> 00:40:04,319
Speaker 2: you have to sort of take everything with a grain

648
00:40:04,320 --> 00:40:07,239
Speaker 2: of salt and follow it through to, like, you know,

649
00:40:07,280 --> 00:40:10,680
Speaker 2: the the the original inspirations to get maybe an idea

650
00:40:10,680 --> 00:40:12,600
Speaker 2: of where things come from. And even then there's a

651
00:40:12,600 --> 00:40:13,360
Speaker 2: lot of overlap.

652
00:40:13,680 --> 00:40:18,160
Speaker 3: Johnny Cage is American, Sonia Blade is American, right, I

653
00:40:18,200 --> 00:40:18,480
Speaker 3: think so?

654
00:40:19,080 --> 00:40:23,560
Speaker 2: Yeah? American Duell until he was played by an Australian man.

655
00:40:23,680 --> 00:40:26,480
Speaker 2: In the in the the Mortal Kombat movie in the

656
00:40:26,560 --> 00:40:29,440
Speaker 2: nineties and after that, and part of it I believe

657
00:40:29,520 --> 00:40:32,520
Speaker 2: is like a dedication to him because he died young.

658
00:40:33,400 --> 00:40:35,719
Speaker 2: They were like, Okay, Kano is Australian from now on,

659
00:40:36,280 --> 00:40:37,920
Speaker 2: so you know, you have changes like that that.

660
00:40:37,920 --> 00:40:40,200
Speaker 3: Occur raidings from out world.

661
00:40:40,920 --> 00:40:47,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, so he's generally maybe French gentleman depicted as French. Yeah,

662
00:40:47,880 --> 00:40:50,920
Speaker 2: he's French scorpion. On the other hand, I think has

663
00:40:50,960 --> 00:40:54,799
Speaker 2: always been depicted as Japanese. But I'm not one sure

664
00:40:54,840 --> 00:40:55,359
Speaker 2: on that either.

665
00:40:56,040 --> 00:40:58,920
Speaker 3: Okay, all right, well, I think maybe we're out of

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00:40:58,960 --> 00:41:01,640
Speaker 3: time for today's episode, but next time we will be

667
00:41:01,719 --> 00:41:06,200
Speaker 3: back with more stories of ninjas throughout history, legendary ninjas,

668
00:41:06,320 --> 00:41:10,799
Speaker 3: ninja anecdotes and techniques and technologies and just we're going

669
00:41:10,840 --> 00:41:13,160
Speaker 3: to find a lot of little corners to look into.

670
00:41:13,600 --> 00:41:15,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, and there will be a little bit of ninja

671
00:41:15,640 --> 00:41:18,400
Speaker 2: science in there. I can't promise lots of ninja science,

672
00:41:18,440 --> 00:41:20,680
Speaker 2: but I know there will be at least a little bit.

673
00:41:20,840 --> 00:41:22,200
Speaker 3: The physics of toad riding.

674
00:41:22,680 --> 00:41:26,200
Speaker 2: Yes, all right, we're going to go and close it

675
00:41:26,239 --> 00:41:29,799
Speaker 2: out there, but let's see what to mention here. Hey,

676
00:41:29,800 --> 00:41:32,319
Speaker 2: I'll just give throughout this once more, if you were

677
00:41:32,360 --> 00:41:35,560
Speaker 2: on Instagram, why don't you follow the Stuff to Blow

678
00:41:35,600 --> 00:41:39,440
Speaker 2: your Mind Instagram account. It is STBYM podcast. That's our handle.

679
00:41:40,239 --> 00:41:42,759
Speaker 2: We had to reset it a while back because we

680
00:41:42,880 --> 00:41:44,799
Speaker 2: lost access to the old one and then we were

681
00:41:44,800 --> 00:41:48,120
Speaker 2: eventually able to send in some shinobi to destroy the

682
00:41:48,200 --> 00:41:51,759
Speaker 2: old one from the inside. But we need to get

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00:41:51,760 --> 00:41:54,080
Speaker 2: the followers up on that Instagram. So if you use Instagram,

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00:41:54,120 --> 00:41:58,200
Speaker 2: follow us there. I can promise you it won't be

685
00:41:58,600 --> 00:42:01,040
Speaker 2: completely boring. It'll be some you'll get an update on

686
00:42:01,040 --> 00:42:03,600
Speaker 2: what we're talking about sometimes some fun videos in there.

687
00:42:03,680 --> 00:42:08,240
Speaker 2: So give us a follow. STBYM Podcast reminder that Stuff

688
00:42:08,239 --> 00:42:10,160
Speaker 2: to Blow Your Mind is primarily a science and culture

689
00:42:10,160 --> 00:42:13,160
Speaker 2: podcast with core episodes on Tuesdays and Thursdays. On Wednesdays,

690
00:42:13,200 --> 00:42:15,120
Speaker 2: we do a short form episode. On Fridays, we set

691
00:42:15,160 --> 00:42:17,120
Speaker 2: aside most serious concerns, all just talk about a weird

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00:42:17,120 --> 00:42:19,640
Speaker 2: film on Weird House Cinema, and then we have some

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00:42:20,120 --> 00:42:23,120
Speaker 2: vault episodes that occur. We have a vault episode of

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00:42:23,200 --> 00:42:26,360
Speaker 2: our core episodes on Saturdays and on Mondays. Our current

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00:42:26,400 --> 00:42:29,440
Speaker 2: format is to do a Weird House rewind that's a

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00:42:29,520 --> 00:42:33,319
Speaker 2: vault episode, a rerun of a past Weird House Cinema.

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00:42:33,000 --> 00:42:36,520
Speaker 3: Episode, Huge Things. As always to our excellent audio producer

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00:42:36,600 --> 00:42:38,919
Speaker 3: JJ Posway. If you would like to get in touch

699
00:42:38,920 --> 00:42:41,000
Speaker 3: with us with feedback on this episode or any other,

700
00:42:41,160 --> 00:42:43,319
Speaker 3: to suggest a topic for the future, or just to

701
00:42:43,320 --> 00:42:46,200
Speaker 3: say hello, you can email us at contact stuff to

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00:42:46,239 --> 00:42:54,960
Speaker 3: Blow your Mind dot com.

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00:42:55,080 --> 00:42:58,000
Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For

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00:42:58,080 --> 00:43:01,960
Speaker 1: more podcasts from my heart Radio, the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

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