WEBVTT - Dr. Sanjay Gupta on training your brain to be resilient

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<v Speaker 1>What do you do when life doesn't go according to

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<v Speaker 1>plan that moment you lose a job, or a loved one,

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<v Speaker 1>or even a piece of yourself. I'm Brookshields and this

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<v Speaker 1>is now What a podcast about pivotal moments as told

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<v Speaker 1>by people who lived them. Each week, I sit down

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<v Speaker 1>with a guest to talk about the times they were

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<v Speaker 1>knocked off course and what they did to move forward.

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<v Speaker 1>Some stories are funny, others are gut wrenching, but all

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<v Speaker 1>are unapologetically human and remind us that every success and

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<v Speaker 1>every setback is accompanied by a choice, and that choice

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<v Speaker 1>answers one question. Now, what is it true that we

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<v Speaker 1>really only use a small portion of our brain? Is

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<v Speaker 1>that a myth?

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<v Speaker 2>No? I think it's mostly a myth. I think the

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<v Speaker 2>way to think about it is that if your brain

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<v Speaker 2>were the United States is a country. You need all

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<v Speaker 2>those roads, you know, to get from one place to

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<v Speaker 2>the other. So you and a lot of the places

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<v Speaker 2>of your brain are roads. You're not actually in cities

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<v Speaker 2>at that time. You're just traveling one place to another,

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<v Speaker 2>and you need those roads. We use ten percent of

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<v Speaker 2>our brain ninety percent of the time. It's probably how

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<v Speaker 2>you live in your house. You may spend most of

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<v Speaker 2>your time in your living room or your kitchen. Probably

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<v Speaker 2>if you're like our house, that's where you know. We're

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<v Speaker 2>always aggregated in the kitchen. That's kind of how we

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<v Speaker 2>use our brains. You have other rooms that maybe you

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<v Speaker 2>don't spend nearly as much time and every now and then,

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<v Speaker 2>but not that much. So we use our whole brains,

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<v Speaker 2>but a very small percentage.

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<v Speaker 1>Most of the time. My guest today is one of

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<v Speaker 1>the smartest people I know, doctor Sanjay Gupta. He's a neurosurgeon,

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<v Speaker 1>an Emmy Award winning journalist, an author, and a husband

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<v Speaker 1>and father. He's been a medical correspondent for CNN since

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<v Speaker 1>two thousand and one and has spent two decades providing

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<v Speaker 1>us all with thoughtful, approachable insight into the biggest stories

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<v Speaker 1>in medicine. Like many of you, I turned to him

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<v Speaker 1>during the COVID nineteen pandemic and was always impressed by

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<v Speaker 1>his calm, demeanor and unparalleled intellect. Since twenty twenty, he's

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<v Speaker 1>hosted the podcast Chasing Life, where he digs deep into aging, mindfulness,

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<v Speaker 1>and everything you don't know about the human brain. I

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<v Speaker 1>loved chatting with him and left our conversation feeling smarter

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<v Speaker 1>and more empowered. So here is doctor Sanjay Kutta. Thank

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<v Speaker 1>you so much for joining me today.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh it's my pleasure, Broke. I've really been looking forward

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<v Speaker 2>to this. Do you remember that we've actually met once before?

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<v Speaker 1>It is you too? Concert you remember? Oh? Yeah, of

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<v Speaker 1>course I do. You're not very forgettable. You know that

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<v Speaker 1>it's a great conversation. I remember I was standing up

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<v Speaker 1>really high chatting with you, and that was a highlight

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<v Speaker 1>for me.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh well, my highlight. I still talk about it all

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<v Speaker 2>the time. And I'm a big fan of yours book

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<v Speaker 2>in many different facets of your life. So just wanted

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<v Speaker 2>to tell you that.

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<v Speaker 1>Thank you. And you have you have three daughters.

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<v Speaker 2>Right, I have three daughters, three teenage daughters.

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<v Speaker 1>When are you going to be an empty nester? Because

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<v Speaker 1>I'm that's looming for me.

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<v Speaker 2>So my youngest is fourteen, so we have fourteen, sixteen,

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<v Speaker 2>and eighteen. She's a ninth grader, so I guess, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>four years we just sent one off to college.

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<v Speaker 1>How did your wife do with that?

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<v Speaker 2>You know, I think in some ways she did. She

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<v Speaker 2>did better than I did. I think in part because

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<v Speaker 2>she's so process oriented.

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<v Speaker 1>She's a lawyer, right, she's.

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<v Speaker 2>A lawyer, yes, And I think just just the mom

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<v Speaker 2>part of her, you know, with all the process of

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<v Speaker 2>moving into the dorms and you know, making sure everything's

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<v Speaker 2>all settled. There were just so much process and I

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<v Speaker 2>got to sit back, I think a little bit more

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<v Speaker 2>because I'm very lucky that I have. You know, Rebecca

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<v Speaker 2>just takes on so much. But I think as a

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<v Speaker 2>result that was very emotional for me. I kept reflecting

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<v Speaker 2>on her as a young kid, and you know, just

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<v Speaker 2>you know, saying that thing that I always hated hearing

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<v Speaker 2>when I was a new dad that the years fly by.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't want to hear that.

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<v Speaker 1>The days are long, the years are short. That's what

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<v Speaker 1>I was told exactly, but you know it is true.

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<v Speaker 1>Like I got. I was I was dealing with the

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<v Speaker 1>room and the linens and the bedding and setting up

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<v Speaker 1>the desk and setting up so I was able to

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<v Speaker 1>sort of stay busy. But then when I saw her

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<v Speaker 1>in the ugh, you get choked up in the rear

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<v Speaker 1>view mirror. I my husband said to me, He's like, okay,

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<v Speaker 1>I have one question for you. He said, when when

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<v Speaker 1>you are crying, would you rather cry in an airplane?

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<v Speaker 1>You know, like a flight or would you rather drive

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<v Speaker 1>and cry in the car? And I said, I can't

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<v Speaker 1>be around people. I was like, I need to cry

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<v Speaker 1>a car for eight out.

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<v Speaker 2>You guys drove back.

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<v Speaker 1>We drove back. Yeah, you does. Does your one daughter

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<v Speaker 1>who's in college have any idea what she wants to study?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, she does. So she's at UT Austin and there's

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<v Speaker 2>a school there that's called the Moody School. So the

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<v Speaker 2>college is made up of a bunch of different schools,

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<v Speaker 2>different you know, things that they cover and specialize in,

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<v Speaker 2>and the Moody School is sort of marketing and advertising,

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<v Speaker 2>and that's that's what I think she's really interested in.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, she's eighteen.

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<v Speaker 1>How are you supposed to know?

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<v Speaker 2>You don't? You know that you don't.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, you can talk to the brain. You can talk

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<v Speaker 1>about what the brain can and cannot understand at that age.

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<v Speaker 2>I remember a long time ago I read this book

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<v Speaker 2>by Eric Erickson and he talked about the fact that

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<v Speaker 2>most adults probably shouldn't make major life decisions until early thirties.

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<v Speaker 2>And he was talking about profession and marriage and just

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<v Speaker 2>big life decisions and part of it, you know, I

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<v Speaker 2>don't He didn't say this in the book. But part

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<v Speaker 2>of it is that, you know, our brains, to you

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<v Speaker 2>to your question, don't don't really fully develop until mid

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<v Speaker 2>to late twenties, and so we're asking kids to make

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<v Speaker 2>these huge decisions about their lives at a very young age,

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<v Speaker 2>and it's it's it's wild, you know, and you know

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<v Speaker 2>they're going to change their minds, and that's good. It's

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<v Speaker 2>part of the reason we wanted her at a big school,

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<v Speaker 2>just to have, you know, lots of things to see

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<v Speaker 2>and options to choose from. I mean not I know

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<v Speaker 2>this is your podcast, but I mean you raise such

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<v Speaker 2>an interesting point. I mean, did now at this point

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<v Speaker 2>in life do you reflect and say you would have

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<v Speaker 2>chosen something different.

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<v Speaker 1>I can't imagine doing anything different. But it took me

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<v Speaker 1>a while to find what I love within this industry,

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<v Speaker 1>and that's comedy. And I think I knew that in

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<v Speaker 1>one way or another from the time. I mean, I

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<v Speaker 1>have a picture of myself at two and I am

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<v Speaker 1>trying to make my daddy laugh. And I could always

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<v Speaker 1>do that. I could do it from the time I

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<v Speaker 1>was a little kid, and I would I just for

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<v Speaker 1>some reason, there was something intuitively clownish about me. Part

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<v Speaker 1>of it was a defense mechanism. Part of it was,

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<v Speaker 1>oh gosh, a million different things, but that wasn't the

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<v Speaker 1>way my career went. Yeah, but I do. But I

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<v Speaker 1>find that I can't imagine not being a performer in

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<v Speaker 1>one capacity. And then I read that you were very

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<v Speaker 1>musical when you were in school. Were you like a

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<v Speaker 1>theater kid as well?

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<v Speaker 2>Me? Oh, yeah, no, I interestingly enough, I played the

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<v Speaker 2>accordion I took.

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<v Speaker 1>That's perfect, sounds great, It's no. I know.

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<v Speaker 2>It's a source of comedy for sure, But.

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<v Speaker 1>You have to be so agile. You have to use

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<v Speaker 1>both sides of your brain, right.

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<v Speaker 2>You have to use both sides of your brain. You

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<v Speaker 2>have to use both your hands in a blinded way.

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<v Speaker 2>You can't really see your fingers at all, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>especially on the left hand, unless you really lean over

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<v Speaker 2>the instrument. But I'll tell you the funny thing is

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<v Speaker 2>is my parents, both immigrants, big Bollywood fans. They if

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<v Speaker 2>you listen to Bollywood music, there's a lot of accordion playing,

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<v Speaker 2>especially in older Bollywood songs. So when they came to

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<v Speaker 2>the States, you know, and they had their first son,

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<v Speaker 2>they were like, he will play the accordion? Yes, And

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<v Speaker 2>there is no Bollywood accordion playing there. So I was

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<v Speaker 2>mainly playing pokas and stuff like that for ten years,

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<v Speaker 2>and it was just it was a very discordant scene

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<v Speaker 2>because a little Indian kid from rural Michigan playing the

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<v Speaker 2>accordion with mostly like these Polish festivals and things like that.

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<v Speaker 1>That sounds like a Bollywood movie. Tell But so you

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<v Speaker 1>were from Michigan and what were you like as a kid.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, pretty pretty bookish kid. You know, I have

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<v Speaker 2>one brother, he's ten years younger than me, so, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>the up until whatever fifth grade or so, I was

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<v Speaker 2>sort of an only child sixth grade and and really

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<v Speaker 2>small town in Michigan, pretty pretty rural.

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<v Speaker 1>You know.

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<v Speaker 2>My parents both worked for the auto industry, and so

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<v Speaker 2>that's that was the Michigan connection.

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<v Speaker 1>How did that? How does that work? They come their

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<v Speaker 1>immigrants from India? Your mom from Yes? Was she Pakistan

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<v Speaker 1>or so?

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<v Speaker 2>My mom was a what's called the partition child. She

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<v Speaker 2>was born in the subcontinent of India before it was

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<v Speaker 2>subdivided into India and Pakistan. And then during the partition,

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<v Speaker 2>which was in nineteen forty seven, she was five years

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<v Speaker 2>old and she fled, you know, with her family to

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<v Speaker 2>what is now India, and for the first twelve years

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<v Speaker 2>of her life lived as a refugee in these camps

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<v Speaker 2>outside of really outside of Mumbai. And I tell you

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<v Speaker 2>all that because you know, during that time as a refugee,

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<v Speaker 2>she became really fascinated with with engineering and the idea

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<v Speaker 2>that she could one day be an engineer. Even you know,

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<v Speaker 2>imagine being in a refugee camp in India and saying

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<v Speaker 2>I want to be an engineer, mostly being told there

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<v Speaker 2>are no women engineers.

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<v Speaker 1>But she was the first ever engineer at female engineer.

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<v Speaker 2>She was the first female engineer Ford.

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<v Speaker 1>And that's groundbreaking and what an example and how amazing

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<v Speaker 1>it is.

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<v Speaker 2>It's totally amazing. And we grew up with it, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>and and and it's certainly part of our family's story.

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<v Speaker 2>It never stops being amazing, like when we think about it,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, and even in today's world, the idea of

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<v Speaker 2>just overcoming those sorts of challenges and becoming the first

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<v Speaker 2>at something it was hard back then. You know, it's

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<v Speaker 2>still hard now to do that. I will tell you, Brooke,

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<v Speaker 2>it is interesting growing up with a mom like that,

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<v Speaker 2>because there's no I can't do something right, you don't

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<v Speaker 2>get to say that you can't do that, Like I

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<v Speaker 2>was a refugee in a camp in India and I

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<v Speaker 2>traveled by boat and you know, all this sort of stuff.

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<v Speaker 2>And so she's a really she's a really remarkableman, great grandmother.

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<v Speaker 2>Now she has five granddaughters. My brother has two daughters.

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<v Speaker 2>We have three. And it's just it's it's remains amazing.

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<v Speaker 1>And fund that was that a source of pressure or

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<v Speaker 1>encouragement for you? That's a kid.

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<v Speaker 2>That's a great question. I I it was, it was

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<v Speaker 2>a It was a healthy pressure. I would say it

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<v Speaker 2>was definitely definitely a I mean, I think that if

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<v Speaker 2>your parents have sacrificed that much to live in this country,

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<v Speaker 2>to try and make the best that they can have things,

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<v Speaker 2>you feel a certain sense of obligation I think as

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<v Speaker 2>an immigrant's immigrant family's child to live up to that.

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<v Speaker 2>It wasn't overt That's why I say it's healthy. It wasn't. Hey,

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<v Speaker 2>we sacrifice so much, therefore you have to do X

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<v Speaker 2>y Z. But you felt it.

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<v Speaker 1>But it's so interesting because I do feel like our

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<v Speaker 1>family's experiences really do they shape us? How can they not?

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<v Speaker 1>But your mom also she had I mean, she experienced

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<v Speaker 1>trauma as as well, right, I mean just the trauma

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<v Speaker 1>of did she did she have siblings?

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<v Speaker 2>Yep? She has, she has three seven links. She had

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<v Speaker 2>other siblings that were older than her that didnt that

0:12:04.200 --> 0:12:08.920
<v Speaker 2>did not survive. So she yeah, there's Look, there's there's trauma,

0:12:09.040 --> 0:12:12.560
<v Speaker 2>you know. And it's funny. One thing, Brooke and this,

0:12:12.559 --> 0:12:16.800
<v Speaker 2>this still surprises me about my mom is that she

0:12:17.600 --> 0:12:20.719
<v Speaker 2>would rather not talk about that stuff and and and

0:12:20.880 --> 0:12:23.160
<v Speaker 2>that's not that surprising. But what is surprising, I think

0:12:23.200 --> 0:12:26.120
<v Speaker 2>is it almost a sense of embarrassment about it. Like

0:12:26.160 --> 0:12:28.760
<v Speaker 2>it's almost like, you know, I don't want to show

0:12:28.800 --> 0:12:31.920
<v Speaker 2>you my dirty house or invite you over my my

0:12:32.160 --> 0:12:34.720
<v Speaker 2>you know, dirty laundry. It's just it's like the person

0:12:34.720 --> 0:12:36.800
<v Speaker 2>who falls down the stairs and pops right back up.

0:12:36.840 --> 0:12:39.920
<v Speaker 2>Oh I'm fine, nothing, I'm good, I'm It's kind of

0:12:39.960 --> 0:12:42.360
<v Speaker 2>like that, but extended to her her life in a way.

0:12:42.520 --> 0:12:45.360
<v Speaker 2>And it's something I don't think I realized until I

0:12:45.520 --> 0:12:48.559
<v Speaker 2>was much older myself about her and and could think

0:12:48.600 --> 0:12:51.320
<v Speaker 2>about things more I think from her point of view,

0:12:51.920 --> 0:12:54.480
<v Speaker 2>Like I asked her about some of these things, and

0:12:54.520 --> 0:12:57.000
<v Speaker 2>she'll say to me, is this something that you're gonna

0:12:57.120 --> 0:13:01.880
<v Speaker 2>tell the girls? Meaning my daughters, and I say, well, yeah,

0:13:01.920 --> 0:13:04.200
<v Speaker 2>I mean I think that they should, and she's like,

0:13:04.240 --> 0:13:05.880
<v Speaker 2>I don't. I just don't think you should tell them

0:13:05.920 --> 0:13:09.000
<v Speaker 2>this stuff. And and so it's not that there is

0:13:09.040 --> 0:13:10.680
<v Speaker 2>a some for some people, there's a badge.

0:13:10.480 --> 0:13:13.360
<v Speaker 1>Of cultural Is it cultural or is it.

0:13:13.559 --> 0:13:15.920
<v Speaker 2>Maybe it's cultural? I mean I do know other partition

0:13:16.360 --> 0:13:20.320
<v Speaker 2>folks from around her age group that talk about it

0:13:20.400 --> 0:13:23.240
<v Speaker 2>quite openly. But I think I think it's more personal.

0:13:23.360 --> 0:13:25.839
<v Speaker 2>Like my mom had cancer several years ago and she

0:13:25.840 --> 0:13:28.000
<v Speaker 2>didn't want people to know that either. I think there

0:13:28.080 --> 0:13:29.840
<v Speaker 2>is this. I think if you've lived the life of

0:13:29.840 --> 0:13:32.440
<v Speaker 2>a refugee where so much of your life ends up

0:13:32.480 --> 0:13:35.440
<v Speaker 2>having to be transactional, I mean that's how you survive

0:13:35.520 --> 0:13:39.920
<v Speaker 2>in a refugee camp, then you you don't you're you're

0:13:39.960 --> 0:13:44.240
<v Speaker 2>you're a little reluctant to show those vulnerabilities about yourself.

0:13:49.640 --> 0:13:53.320
<v Speaker 1>I call this podcast now What because it's about pivotal

0:13:53.320 --> 0:13:55.760
<v Speaker 1>moments in our lives. Yeah, you know, it's about those

0:13:55.840 --> 0:14:00.040
<v Speaker 1>moments where you ask yourself, oh my god, now what

0:14:00.120 --> 0:14:04.360
<v Speaker 1>do I do? And I'm faced with this and they're

0:14:04.400 --> 0:14:09.880
<v Speaker 1>pivotal moments. And I'm fascinated by why some people stay

0:14:09.960 --> 0:14:14.200
<v Speaker 1>laying down, lying down, I did go to college or promise,

0:14:14.800 --> 0:14:19.960
<v Speaker 1>and others bounce right back up. And is there an

0:14:20.040 --> 0:14:23.520
<v Speaker 1>element in the brain that you've seen that's consistent as

0:14:23.600 --> 0:14:28.200
<v Speaker 1>to why people become allow themselves to see themselves as

0:14:28.320 --> 0:14:34.560
<v Speaker 1>victims versus see themselves as survivors or warriors.

0:14:35.280 --> 0:14:37.920
<v Speaker 2>I absolutely think there is, you know, and this is

0:14:37.960 --> 0:14:40.320
<v Speaker 2>something that I've thought a lot about. I mean, I

0:14:40.760 --> 0:14:43.760
<v Speaker 2>would maybe widen the aperture a little bit, and to

0:14:43.800 --> 0:14:46.120
<v Speaker 2>say that, I think there are some people who, when

0:14:46.240 --> 0:14:50.960
<v Speaker 2>confronted with the daily events of our world and just

0:14:51.000 --> 0:14:52.600
<v Speaker 2>all the stuff that's going on, there are some people

0:14:52.680 --> 0:14:57.680
<v Speaker 2>who are just crushed by that, seemingly paralyzed by that,

0:14:57.720 --> 0:14:59.720
<v Speaker 2>whether or not they see themselves as the victim, it's

0:14:59.760 --> 0:15:03.160
<v Speaker 2>over whelming. And there are other people who are almost

0:15:03.160 --> 0:15:06.560
<v Speaker 2>strengthened by it, like you would if you were to

0:15:06.600 --> 0:15:08.920
<v Speaker 2>think about it metaphorically, like going to the gym and

0:15:08.960 --> 0:15:11.760
<v Speaker 2>getting a good workout, and yes, it was hard to

0:15:11.800 --> 0:15:13.680
<v Speaker 2>push the weight or whatever you were doing, but now

0:15:13.680 --> 0:15:16.240
<v Speaker 2>you're stronger as a result, if you were to think

0:15:16.280 --> 0:15:19.360
<v Speaker 2>of the brain that way. And I think the core ingredient,

0:15:19.440 --> 0:15:21.240
<v Speaker 2>and a lot of people have written about this, is

0:15:21.680 --> 0:15:27.760
<v Speaker 2>this idea of resilience of the brain, and to expand

0:15:27.760 --> 0:15:30.280
<v Speaker 2>on that to say, the redundancy in the brain. Do

0:15:30.280 --> 0:15:33.000
<v Speaker 2>you have more redundancy to be able to handle these things?

0:15:34.040 --> 0:15:37.040
<v Speaker 2>And I think that makes a big difference. And it's

0:15:37.080 --> 0:15:39.280
<v Speaker 2>not that you necessarily need to keep going through trauma

0:15:39.280 --> 0:15:42.160
<v Speaker 2>and build up some tolerance to the trauma. It is

0:15:42.200 --> 0:15:44.880
<v Speaker 2>if your brain is a brain that is doing lots

0:15:44.920 --> 0:15:48.760
<v Speaker 2>of different things, you tend to build more brain cells

0:15:48.800 --> 0:15:52.120
<v Speaker 2>and have more redundancy and thus more resilience. And when

0:15:52.160 --> 0:15:56.040
<v Speaker 2>you're confronted with something, you're not crushed by it. You

0:15:56.080 --> 0:15:57.600
<v Speaker 2>may even be strengthened by it.

0:15:58.200 --> 0:16:00.800
<v Speaker 1>How did you decide to become a brain searching.

0:16:01.320 --> 0:16:04.760
<v Speaker 2>You know it? Nobody in my family is a doctor

0:16:04.880 --> 0:16:07.120
<v Speaker 2>or a brain surgion. Most of my colleagues that was

0:16:07.160 --> 0:16:09.880
<v Speaker 2>sort of their their trajectory. They had, you know, people

0:16:09.920 --> 0:16:14.280
<v Speaker 2>in their parents or somebody. But for me, my mom's

0:16:14.360 --> 0:16:17.360
<v Speaker 2>dad got sick when I was around thirteen years old,

0:16:17.440 --> 0:16:21.080
<v Speaker 2>had had a stroke, and we're very close and I

0:16:21.120 --> 0:16:22.240
<v Speaker 2>would spend a lot of time with them on the

0:16:22.280 --> 0:16:23.760
<v Speaker 2>hospital at that point, and I think it was the

0:16:23.760 --> 0:16:27.280
<v Speaker 2>first time I sort of realized that, like going into

0:16:27.320 --> 0:16:31.760
<v Speaker 2>medicine could be a good profession. My parents are both engineers,

0:16:31.800 --> 0:16:35.520
<v Speaker 2>and so the expectation my dad's a mathematician, was the

0:16:35.560 --> 0:16:39.240
<v Speaker 2>expectation was that I'd go into engineering or some math

0:16:39.360 --> 0:16:42.360
<v Speaker 2>or something like that. Going into medicine, to be honest,

0:16:42.480 --> 0:16:45.720
<v Speaker 2>was pretty expensive, you know, to make that commitment to

0:16:45.720 --> 0:16:48.280
<v Speaker 2>go to medical school and everything. So but I think

0:16:48.320 --> 0:16:50.560
<v Speaker 2>around that age I sort of thought about it for

0:16:50.600 --> 0:16:53.440
<v Speaker 2>the first time, and with my grandfather and the stroke,

0:16:53.520 --> 0:16:56.040
<v Speaker 2>I became very interested in the brain. You know. He

0:16:56.080 --> 0:16:58.320
<v Speaker 2>had this really interesting thing that happened to him during

0:16:58.400 --> 0:17:02.000
<v Speaker 2>his stroke, which is that he could he could write fine,

0:17:02.040 --> 0:17:05.680
<v Speaker 2>he could speak fine, but he could not understand. In fact,

0:17:05.880 --> 0:17:08.639
<v Speaker 2>he could write something and not read what he just wrote.

0:17:09.680 --> 0:17:12.560
<v Speaker 2>And I remember thinking, like, even as a pretty you know,

0:17:12.600 --> 0:17:16.080
<v Speaker 2>a teenager at that point, that that's wild that the

0:17:16.119 --> 0:17:19.640
<v Speaker 2>brain does that. And I think it was it sort

0:17:19.640 --> 0:17:22.439
<v Speaker 2>of ignited a little bit of something in terms of

0:17:22.480 --> 0:17:24.520
<v Speaker 2>just trying to read a lot about the brain and

0:17:24.560 --> 0:17:28.119
<v Speaker 2>becoming increasingly interested in it. I didn't think neurosurgery was

0:17:28.160 --> 0:17:31.000
<v Speaker 2>going to be the path initially, you know, because it

0:17:32.000 --> 0:17:34.440
<v Speaker 2>seemed too intense, to be honest with you, seven years

0:17:34.440 --> 0:17:38.000
<v Speaker 2>of training after medical school. But as I got closer

0:17:38.040 --> 0:17:39.840
<v Speaker 2>and closer. I thought to myself, you know what, I

0:17:39.840 --> 0:17:40.920
<v Speaker 2>think I could do this.

0:17:41.480 --> 0:17:43.639
<v Speaker 1>And I guess a stroke. My mother had a stroke

0:17:43.800 --> 0:17:46.120
<v Speaker 1>as well, or she'd like sort of a series of

0:17:46.640 --> 0:17:52.120
<v Speaker 1>mini strokes, and she started not being able to really

0:17:54.000 --> 0:17:59.720
<v Speaker 1>her verbal communication changed, but she started singing, oh interesting

0:18:00.080 --> 0:18:04.480
<v Speaker 1>in this like kind of beautiful, almost like a falsetto.

0:18:04.840 --> 0:18:06.840
<v Speaker 1>And I mean, you know, of course it was creepy

0:18:06.880 --> 0:18:08.919
<v Speaker 1>to me because she would call me and sing and

0:18:08.960 --> 0:18:12.000
<v Speaker 1>I'd be like, you're creeping me out, mom, But that

0:18:12.240 --> 0:18:17.879
<v Speaker 1>was it was such an interesting shift in her that

0:18:17.960 --> 0:18:20.880
<v Speaker 1>I find. You know, that was sort of when you

0:18:21.200 --> 0:18:24.000
<v Speaker 1>talked about your grandfather. What do you think that the

0:18:24.040 --> 0:18:27.399
<v Speaker 1>most I mean, what have you discovered as the most

0:18:28.119 --> 0:18:35.080
<v Speaker 1>interesting aspect or striking thing about operating on a brain?

0:18:35.960 --> 0:18:38.639
<v Speaker 1>Actual brain, like you're holding it.

0:18:38.640 --> 0:18:41.760
<v Speaker 2>It's wild, it's the it's the brain is the most

0:18:43.040 --> 0:18:46.159
<v Speaker 2>enigmatic three and a half pounds of flesh in the

0:18:46.200 --> 0:18:49.040
<v Speaker 2>known universe. And I think about it every time I

0:18:49.080 --> 0:18:51.440
<v Speaker 2>operate on it, because you know, going back to sort

0:18:51.480 --> 0:18:54.440
<v Speaker 2>of this idea of being process oriented, when you're operating,

0:18:54.520 --> 0:18:57.080
<v Speaker 2>you have a you have a thing that you're trying

0:18:57.080 --> 0:19:00.000
<v Speaker 2>to do, you know, remove a brain tumor or put

0:18:59.880 --> 0:19:03.040
<v Speaker 2>a clip around an aneurysm or whatever it might be.

0:19:03.720 --> 0:19:05.439
<v Speaker 2>But when you sit back and just look at the

0:19:05.480 --> 0:19:07.880
<v Speaker 2>brain sometimes I think, you know, one of the things

0:19:07.880 --> 0:19:11.720
<v Speaker 2>that still strikes me about the brain is that it's

0:19:11.880 --> 0:19:15.200
<v Speaker 2>it's so delicate, like I I, I don't know. I

0:19:15.480 --> 0:19:17.400
<v Speaker 2>feel like, you know, we're used to like the very

0:19:17.400 --> 0:19:19.640
<v Speaker 2>important things in our life. We're gonna like really make

0:19:19.760 --> 0:19:22.600
<v Speaker 2>tough and protect it. So like when you actually touch

0:19:22.640 --> 0:19:25.760
<v Speaker 2>the brain, it feels like like a piece of shrimp cocktail.

0:19:25.920 --> 0:19:28.280
<v Speaker 2>You know, it's it's so soft and and.

0:19:28.560 --> 0:19:30.160
<v Speaker 1>I may never eat shrimp cocktail again.

0:19:31.520 --> 0:19:38.480
<v Speaker 2>Sorry, thank you for that allish allergies out there, surgents,

0:19:38.760 --> 0:19:40.600
<v Speaker 2>But you know, it's just you think it would put

0:19:40.680 --> 0:19:43.680
<v Speaker 2>up more of a fight in some ways to protect itself.

0:19:43.880 --> 0:19:47.680
<v Speaker 2>But it's it's it's still I I love doing it

0:19:48.520 --> 0:19:52.480
<v Speaker 2>performing brain surgery. I think there's a real you know,

0:19:52.480 --> 0:19:53.760
<v Speaker 2>you go to school for a long time, but there's

0:19:53.760 --> 0:19:57.679
<v Speaker 2>also sort of a real physical component to it. You know.

0:19:57.760 --> 0:19:59.720
<v Speaker 2>I have one a daughter who's a dancer, and she's

0:19:59.720 --> 0:20:02.560
<v Speaker 2>just so focused on her dancing moves, and she's so

0:20:03.040 --> 0:20:05.680
<v Speaker 2>good at that sort of stuff. I had. I'm I'm

0:20:05.720 --> 0:20:09.280
<v Speaker 2>not naturally, so so you know, I had, I had

0:20:09.280 --> 0:20:11.360
<v Speaker 2>to practice a lot with my hands, but I love

0:20:11.440 --> 0:20:14.240
<v Speaker 2>that physical aspect of it as well, and not still

0:20:14.840 --> 0:20:17.159
<v Speaker 2>is a source of great joy for me after all

0:20:17.200 --> 0:20:17.680
<v Speaker 2>these years.

0:20:18.119 --> 0:20:21.439
<v Speaker 1>How do you develop the instincts that you need to

0:20:21.520 --> 0:20:26.159
<v Speaker 1>make those very difficult decisions that.

0:20:26.400 --> 0:20:28.640
<v Speaker 2>Can be one of the most challenging parts of things

0:20:28.720 --> 0:20:32.560
<v Speaker 2>you write, Brooke, I mean, I think in some cases,

0:20:32.720 --> 0:20:35.960
<v Speaker 2>to operate or not operates very clear. You know, someone

0:20:36.000 --> 0:20:40.159
<v Speaker 2>has had a recent trauma and now needs to decompress

0:20:40.200 --> 0:20:42.639
<v Speaker 2>their brain, or a type of tumor that can be

0:20:42.680 --> 0:20:46.480
<v Speaker 2>resected that could you know, dramatically prolong their life. All

0:20:46.760 --> 0:20:49.040
<v Speaker 2>that sort of stuff is very clear, But sometimes it's

0:20:49.040 --> 0:20:50.879
<v Speaker 2>not as clear. You're not sure that someone's going to

0:20:50.960 --> 0:20:54.400
<v Speaker 2>have a good outcome. And you know, having those conversations

0:20:54.440 --> 0:20:57.760
<v Speaker 2>with your patients in a very honest and hopeful way,

0:20:57.960 --> 0:21:00.439
<v Speaker 2>you can balance hope and honesty. You know a lot

0:21:00.480 --> 0:21:02.440
<v Speaker 2>of times, you know, the idea of hope is is

0:21:02.520 --> 0:21:05.200
<v Speaker 2>I think, given short shrift. But people who have hope,

0:21:05.600 --> 0:21:07.600
<v Speaker 2>they tend to do better, you know, they tend to

0:21:07.680 --> 0:21:10.720
<v Speaker 2>have better outcomes. But finding that balance, and I will

0:21:10.720 --> 0:21:14.000
<v Speaker 2>tell you that, you know, I train residents and medical students.

0:21:14.080 --> 0:21:16.960
<v Speaker 2>They're younger than I am. I have three teenagers, I

0:21:17.040 --> 0:21:20.160
<v Speaker 2>have parents who are in their eighties. Now I think

0:21:20.200 --> 0:21:23.919
<v Speaker 2>I have a different worldview. I truly imagine, like, my

0:21:24.000 --> 0:21:27.000
<v Speaker 2>mom's a very healthy eighty year old. A lot of

0:21:27.000 --> 0:21:29.320
<v Speaker 2>times you hear, oh, person's coming to the hospital eighty

0:21:29.400 --> 0:21:31.040
<v Speaker 2>years old with such and such, and you think, oh,

0:21:31.040 --> 0:21:34.520
<v Speaker 2>eighty years old, that's old. Well, if that were my mom,

0:21:35.359 --> 0:21:39.320
<v Speaker 2>she's driving, she's totally independent, she has a really play

0:21:39.359 --> 0:21:42.440
<v Speaker 2>shuffle board, has a really joyful life. Like I would

0:21:42.480 --> 0:21:45.159
<v Speaker 2>totally operate on that, Whereas the instinct might be, you know,

0:21:45.359 --> 0:21:47.520
<v Speaker 2>is there should there be an age cutoff? I'm just

0:21:47.680 --> 0:21:49.600
<v Speaker 2>using that as an example. Yeah, But I think as

0:21:49.640 --> 0:21:51.720
<v Speaker 2>you get older, as I've been doing this a long

0:21:51.760 --> 0:21:55.360
<v Speaker 2>time now, that judgment that you're asking about, I think

0:21:55.440 --> 0:21:57.919
<v Speaker 2>ends up becoming probably the most important thing because the

0:21:57.920 --> 0:22:01.720
<v Speaker 2>surgical skills, you know, I did seven years of training,

0:22:01.720 --> 0:22:03.400
<v Speaker 2>I did a year of fellowship. I've been doing this

0:22:03.840 --> 0:22:06.560
<v Speaker 2>for the last twenty years. All the time, you know

0:22:07.040 --> 0:22:09.639
<v Speaker 2>that part is less of a concern than it is

0:22:09.720 --> 0:22:10.520
<v Speaker 2>just the judgment.

0:22:11.000 --> 0:22:14.159
<v Speaker 1>Do you have any now what moments yourself in or

0:22:14.200 --> 0:22:19.240
<v Speaker 1>an era or times where you've just really said, Wow,

0:22:19.359 --> 0:22:23.560
<v Speaker 1>what am I positive or negative? Yeah?

0:22:23.760 --> 0:22:26.600
<v Speaker 2>I think I've had a lot, you know, I think

0:22:27.359 --> 0:22:31.240
<v Speaker 2>on a professional level, I think this idea of straddling

0:22:31.280 --> 0:22:35.600
<v Speaker 2>two worlds of medicine, which is still my first and

0:22:35.640 --> 0:22:39.800
<v Speaker 2>truest love professionally and then the media world and saying

0:22:39.880 --> 0:22:42.000
<v Speaker 2>is this something that I could could add to that

0:22:42.200 --> 0:22:44.720
<v Speaker 2>or do as well? I think was a really significant

0:22:44.720 --> 0:22:46.280
<v Speaker 2>moment I came to that sort of mid life or

0:22:46.320 --> 0:22:48.280
<v Speaker 2>mid career I should say. You know, I was in

0:22:48.320 --> 0:22:51.280
<v Speaker 2>my early thirties at that point, and so to add

0:22:51.320 --> 0:22:55.000
<v Speaker 2>something that I had never done before to your life

0:22:55.320 --> 0:22:57.919
<v Speaker 2>and also have it be something that is that is

0:22:59.480 --> 0:23:01.439
<v Speaker 2>very public, like you know, you know, I was in

0:23:01.560 --> 0:23:04.919
<v Speaker 2>again an Indian kid living in rural Michigan who you know,

0:23:05.040 --> 0:23:08.200
<v Speaker 2>really did not have ever had those kinds of experiences

0:23:08.240 --> 0:23:11.479
<v Speaker 2>or interactions with people. To do television, that was a

0:23:11.760 --> 0:23:14.040
<v Speaker 2>that was an interesting pivot. And when I started, I

0:23:14.040 --> 0:23:16.040
<v Speaker 2>thought I was going to be mainly talking about health

0:23:16.080 --> 0:23:18.960
<v Speaker 2>policy because I had written a lot about health policy.

0:23:19.880 --> 0:23:22.760
<v Speaker 2>And I started in August of two thousand and one,

0:23:23.160 --> 0:23:26.000
<v Speaker 2>brook and three and a half weeks later, nine to

0:23:26.040 --> 0:23:29.520
<v Speaker 2>eleven happened, And so they just hired a guy to

0:23:29.600 --> 0:23:33.119
<v Speaker 2>mainly a doc to do health policy commentary, probably mostly

0:23:33.119 --> 0:23:35.800
<v Speaker 2>on the Sunday shows. And now they said, hey, we're

0:23:35.800 --> 0:23:37.680
<v Speaker 2>probably not going to be talking about that for a while,

0:23:37.720 --> 0:23:40.199
<v Speaker 2>considering what's happening in the world. But now you're a

0:23:40.240 --> 0:23:42.920
<v Speaker 2>doc working at an international news network in the middle

0:23:42.960 --> 0:23:45.520
<v Speaker 2>of this. And then and then all the things, you know,

0:23:45.840 --> 0:23:49.360
<v Speaker 2>I covered the war in Afghanistan, covered the Warner Rock,

0:23:49.520 --> 0:23:53.080
<v Speaker 2>you know, anthrax, covered just about every major conflict that

0:23:53.480 --> 0:23:56.720
<v Speaker 2>has happened over the last twenty one years, and natural

0:23:56.760 --> 0:23:59.480
<v Speaker 2>disasters and pandemics, and that was never sort of the

0:23:59.520 --> 0:24:02.680
<v Speaker 2>original plan. So I think that now what moment when

0:24:02.680 --> 0:24:05.199
<v Speaker 2>they first said this, you know, you know, also I

0:24:05.200 --> 0:24:07.639
<v Speaker 2>had this new practice in eurosurgery. You know that I

0:24:07.720 --> 0:24:10.280
<v Speaker 2>was and can you do this? And I had and

0:24:10.320 --> 0:24:13.080
<v Speaker 2>I and I was, you know, had young children, so

0:24:13.240 --> 0:24:15.800
<v Speaker 2>you know, all of that was sort of happening at

0:24:15.800 --> 0:24:18.200
<v Speaker 2>the same time. But I think professionally that was it.

0:24:18.240 --> 0:24:21.400
<v Speaker 2>And then personally, I mean, you know better than anyone,

0:24:21.640 --> 0:24:25.480
<v Speaker 2>I mean, having kids is I think a lot of

0:24:25.520 --> 0:24:29.080
<v Speaker 2>people who are nursing never have families. You know, you

0:24:29.119 --> 0:24:33.440
<v Speaker 2>spend most of your life during your formative years training,

0:24:33.760 --> 0:24:35.680
<v Speaker 2>you know, and back then it was one hundred hours

0:24:35.720 --> 0:24:38.040
<v Speaker 2>a week, so you know, trying to put another person

0:24:38.119 --> 0:24:41.400
<v Speaker 2>or people through that with you is a big ask.

0:24:42.119 --> 0:24:45.600
<v Speaker 2>So that was that was a you know, like, wow,

0:24:45.640 --> 0:24:48.399
<v Speaker 2>I have children now that that was sort of an

0:24:48.440 --> 0:24:51.120
<v Speaker 2>amazing I for a good chunk of my life did

0:24:51.160 --> 0:24:54.480
<v Speaker 2>not think that was going to happen, and here we.

0:24:54.400 --> 0:24:57.879
<v Speaker 1>Are, and then you get three girls girls. Yeah, oh

0:24:58.080 --> 0:25:00.720
<v Speaker 1>my god, yes the track.

0:25:00.520 --> 0:25:05.320
<v Speaker 2>Whenever I say that.

0:25:02.680 --> 0:25:07.679
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, they are honestly the most. They bring me to

0:25:07.800 --> 0:25:11.200
<v Speaker 1>my knees more more often than not. And then they

0:25:11.240 --> 0:25:16.880
<v Speaker 1>surprise me with their capacity for love and caring and

0:25:16.880 --> 0:25:20.920
<v Speaker 1>and all of that. Switching a little bit, you are

0:25:20.960 --> 0:25:25.240
<v Speaker 1>in your seventh season of Chasing Life. Yes, can you

0:25:25.480 --> 0:25:27.760
<v Speaker 1>talk a little bit about the premise of that show?

0:25:27.800 --> 0:25:32.520
<v Speaker 2>And so Chasing Life actually originally started during the pandemic

0:25:32.600 --> 0:25:35.639
<v Speaker 2>and it was more of an opportunity to the podcast.

0:25:35.880 --> 0:25:37.600
<v Speaker 2>And I don't know how how much prep time you

0:25:37.640 --> 0:25:40.280
<v Speaker 2>got when you started your podcast, but I was called

0:25:40.280 --> 0:25:42.160
<v Speaker 2>on a Friday and said, can you start Monday.

0:25:43.400 --> 0:25:48.760
<v Speaker 1>Wow. I have a wonderful producer who keeps it, keeps

0:25:48.800 --> 0:25:51.640
<v Speaker 1>me abreast, so to speak, of things that I can

0:25:51.920 --> 0:25:54.439
<v Speaker 1>that I can do while I'm traveling and get as

0:25:54.520 --> 0:25:57.880
<v Speaker 1>much because I love homework. So I'm a big, you know, homework,

0:25:57.960 --> 0:26:01.280
<v Speaker 1>homework person. But maybe that's the maybe that's the way

0:26:01.320 --> 0:26:04.600
<v Speaker 1>you thrive, you know, clearly thrive on your feet.

0:26:04.800 --> 0:26:06.920
<v Speaker 2>I would I would have liked a little bit more time,

0:26:07.040 --> 0:26:11.080
<v Speaker 2>to be totally honest. But I love podcasting. I love podcasts.

0:26:11.160 --> 0:26:15.160
<v Speaker 2>I listened to podcasts. I think there's a real intimacy

0:26:15.160 --> 0:26:18.720
<v Speaker 2>about it. The basic gist of Chasing Life is that

0:26:19.560 --> 0:26:22.440
<v Speaker 2>kind of wish you were talking about. The body is

0:26:22.480 --> 0:26:26.840
<v Speaker 2>this amazing thing. It can heal itself really well, and

0:26:26.960 --> 0:26:30.560
<v Speaker 2>it can be optimized in ways that we haven't fully appreciated.

0:26:31.920 --> 0:26:34.760
<v Speaker 2>A lot of the reason we're not optimized is because

0:26:34.760 --> 0:26:37.479
<v Speaker 2>we do things to our bodies that are bad as

0:26:37.480 --> 0:26:40.760
<v Speaker 2>opposed to not doing things. So it's as much about

0:26:41.119 --> 0:26:44.120
<v Speaker 2>seeing these cultures around the world where people live these

0:26:44.200 --> 0:26:48.520
<v Speaker 2>really healthy, happy, long lives, what we can learn from them,

0:26:49.440 --> 0:26:52.520
<v Speaker 2>and you know, traveling around the world and really immersing

0:26:52.520 --> 0:26:55.080
<v Speaker 2>myself in those cultures. That was a lot of Chasing Life.

0:26:55.520 --> 0:26:58.520
<v Speaker 2>This season, I've decided to in some ways go back

0:26:58.560 --> 0:27:02.800
<v Speaker 2>to my roots all about the brain, and every episode

0:27:02.960 --> 0:27:08.359
<v Speaker 2>is something blank brain, meaning the motivated brain, the attentive brain,

0:27:08.840 --> 0:27:13.399
<v Speaker 2>the depressed brain, whatever it might be, and trying to

0:27:13.440 --> 0:27:16.160
<v Speaker 2>figure out, like, with what we know now about the brain,

0:27:16.200 --> 0:27:18.520
<v Speaker 2>which is a lot more than people realize, with what

0:27:18.560 --> 0:27:22.119
<v Speaker 2>we know now, how can you create a more attentive brain?

0:27:22.880 --> 0:27:25.159
<v Speaker 2>And that's what I really wanted to focus on, and

0:27:25.200 --> 0:27:29.159
<v Speaker 2>selfishly whenever, Like you, I love homework and so I

0:27:29.359 --> 0:27:32.399
<v Speaker 2>learn a lot. Even though I'm a neurosurgeon, how to,

0:27:32.960 --> 0:27:37.359
<v Speaker 2>you know, protect my brain against some of the daily

0:27:37.520 --> 0:27:39.399
<v Speaker 2>challenges we were talking about earlier, how to make the

0:27:39.440 --> 0:27:42.840
<v Speaker 2>more resilient brain. There's real information out there that I

0:27:42.840 --> 0:27:43.960
<v Speaker 2>think can be helpful to people.

0:27:44.240 --> 0:27:47.919
<v Speaker 1>One of the things I love about your podcast is

0:27:47.960 --> 0:27:52.159
<v Speaker 1>that you interviewed your parents and you ask them what

0:27:52.400 --> 0:27:56.800
<v Speaker 1>advice that they would give to their twenty five I

0:27:56.840 --> 0:28:00.160
<v Speaker 1>think it was your old selves. So I would just

0:28:00.520 --> 0:28:02.840
<v Speaker 1>like to ask you that question, what advice would you

0:28:02.880 --> 0:28:06.240
<v Speaker 1>give your twenty five year old self?

0:28:06.800 --> 0:28:09.960
<v Speaker 2>I think that, uh, you know, it's funny. I didn't

0:28:10.000 --> 0:28:12.040
<v Speaker 2>really think about that for myself. I was thinking about

0:28:12.040 --> 0:28:14.840
<v Speaker 2>it for my parents. But you know, I think that

0:28:15.200 --> 0:28:18.359
<v Speaker 2>what I would basically say is that there are things

0:28:18.359 --> 0:28:20.360
<v Speaker 2>that I paid a lot of attention to that did

0:28:20.359 --> 0:28:22.359
<v Speaker 2>not end up being that important in my life. I

0:28:23.600 --> 0:28:27.080
<v Speaker 2>overtilted towards certain things, thinking that they were going to

0:28:27.280 --> 0:28:30.919
<v Speaker 2>be these huge important things that were going to dictate

0:28:30.960 --> 0:28:32.640
<v Speaker 2>how my life would go, for good or for bad,

0:28:33.280 --> 0:28:35.640
<v Speaker 2>and they weren't. And I probably knew that at the time,

0:28:36.320 --> 0:28:37.919
<v Speaker 2>And there were probably things that I wish I had

0:28:37.960 --> 0:28:41.720
<v Speaker 2>paid more attention to as well. And so it's hard

0:28:41.760 --> 0:28:43.840
<v Speaker 2>to know when you're twenty five. It's hard to get

0:28:43.880 --> 0:28:46.840
<v Speaker 2>yourself in that headspace. If you really sit down and

0:28:46.880 --> 0:28:49.280
<v Speaker 2>think about it, you probably can figure it out. But

0:28:49.360 --> 0:28:51.640
<v Speaker 2>the other thing is that, you know, I have people

0:28:51.680 --> 0:28:54.640
<v Speaker 2>in my life who are sort of frame shifted from

0:28:54.640 --> 0:28:57.160
<v Speaker 2>me about twenty years. You know, my parents are a

0:28:57.160 --> 0:28:59.720
<v Speaker 2>bit older than that. The age gap is a little

0:28:59.720 --> 0:29:02.280
<v Speaker 2>bit more. But I spend a lot of time talking

0:29:02.360 --> 0:29:04.800
<v Speaker 2>to people who are fifteen to twenty years older than

0:29:04.840 --> 0:29:07.240
<v Speaker 2>me and just be like, hey, man, is this my

0:29:07.320 --> 0:29:09.920
<v Speaker 2>overdoing it on this thing? Tell me? And he's gonna

0:29:09.920 --> 0:29:11.600
<v Speaker 2>be like, dude, you're not even going to remember that

0:29:11.680 --> 0:29:14.520
<v Speaker 2>two years from now. You won't even think about it again.

0:29:14.560 --> 0:29:17.960
<v Speaker 2>I guarantee it. And here I am obsessed with, like

0:29:18.000 --> 0:29:19.640
<v Speaker 2>I don't even know what it might be, some simple

0:29:19.880 --> 0:29:23.240
<v Speaker 2>thing you know, whether it be about my kid's school

0:29:23.360 --> 0:29:27.200
<v Speaker 2>or finances, or you know, whatever it might be, and

0:29:28.000 --> 0:29:30.960
<v Speaker 2>just getting that constant perspective. So I would give myself

0:29:30.960 --> 0:29:34.120
<v Speaker 2>that advice. Really reflect on what you think is going

0:29:34.160 --> 0:29:37.360
<v Speaker 2>to be important, to be honest about that and talk

0:29:37.400 --> 0:29:40.239
<v Speaker 2>to people who are older than you and benefit from

0:29:40.240 --> 0:29:40.800
<v Speaker 2>their wisdom.

0:29:41.360 --> 0:29:45.920
<v Speaker 1>Well, I love your podcast, and I'm learning about I

0:29:45.960 --> 0:29:51.080
<v Speaker 1>had very severe postpartum and the one I understood the

0:29:51.160 --> 0:29:55.120
<v Speaker 1>biochemical what was happening in my brain when I looked

0:29:55.160 --> 0:29:59.360
<v Speaker 1>at it from a brain perspective, from a hormonally and

0:30:00.080 --> 0:30:02.280
<v Speaker 1>from the first time in my life, not being able

0:30:02.320 --> 0:30:05.720
<v Speaker 1>to power through something that was what was freeing. So

0:30:05.800 --> 0:30:08.120
<v Speaker 1>I think that one of the things your podcast this

0:30:08.160 --> 0:30:11.280
<v Speaker 1>season in particular is doing is that it's that type

0:30:11.320 --> 0:30:14.360
<v Speaker 1>of information is liberating to people.

0:30:14.640 --> 0:30:18.640
<v Speaker 2>Well, look, I really know. Well, thank you for saying that, Brooke.

0:30:18.680 --> 0:30:22.480
<v Speaker 2>I mean, I remember you talking about your postpartum quite

0:30:22.480 --> 0:30:24.239
<v Speaker 2>a bit and I wanted to tell you that, you know,

0:30:24.440 --> 0:30:28.920
<v Speaker 2>I don't Around that time, I thought it was an

0:30:28.920 --> 0:30:31.400
<v Speaker 2>opportunity because you were talking about it, to try and

0:30:31.520 --> 0:30:35.600
<v Speaker 2>educate the audience about these issues. And one of the

0:30:35.640 --> 0:30:37.400
<v Speaker 2>studies that I showed, and this is a long time

0:30:37.440 --> 0:30:39.840
<v Speaker 2>ago now, and we know, I think girls have grown

0:30:39.960 --> 0:30:42.600
<v Speaker 2>right since that time. But one of the studies that

0:30:42.640 --> 0:30:45.400
<v Speaker 2>came out right around that time was a study that

0:30:45.480 --> 0:30:50.280
<v Speaker 2>actually imaged the brain functionally, and it was so fascinating

0:30:50.320 --> 0:30:53.160
<v Speaker 2>because you saw something that we had never seen before,

0:30:53.440 --> 0:30:57.440
<v Speaker 2>and it showed that in someone who was depressed, that

0:30:57.520 --> 0:31:01.360
<v Speaker 2>their frontal lobes of their brain, the judgment areas of

0:31:01.360 --> 0:31:06.080
<v Speaker 2>your brain were completely fired up, okay, and your amygdala,

0:31:06.240 --> 0:31:08.800
<v Speaker 2>which is your emotional center of the brain, was really

0:31:08.840 --> 0:31:11.640
<v Speaker 2>kind of cold, less functional, which meant you were kind

0:31:11.640 --> 0:31:14.959
<v Speaker 2>of like in a cocoon, and and nothing came out

0:31:15.000 --> 0:31:17.480
<v Speaker 2>because the frontal low was basically saying that's dumb, don't

0:31:17.480 --> 0:31:21.240
<v Speaker 2>do that overly judging everything that you did. And what

0:31:21.280 --> 0:31:24.440
<v Speaker 2>was interesting is and people who then were treated, you

0:31:24.480 --> 0:31:28.960
<v Speaker 2>did see functionally within the brain, a change less activity

0:31:29.000 --> 0:31:31.080
<v Speaker 2>in those areas and more I mean. And it was

0:31:31.080 --> 0:31:33.920
<v Speaker 2>so interesting because we had there's no biomarker for depression,

0:31:34.080 --> 0:31:36.560
<v Speaker 2>there's no blood test or anything. That was the first

0:31:36.640 --> 0:31:40.160
<v Speaker 2>time we objectively could see what depression looked like in

0:31:40.160 --> 0:31:44.440
<v Speaker 2>the brain and see objective evidence of it actually being treated,

0:31:44.680 --> 0:31:45.880
<v Speaker 2>which was fascinating to me.

0:31:51.040 --> 0:31:54.480
<v Speaker 1>That was doctor Sanjay Gupta. Go check out his podcast

0:31:54.680 --> 0:31:58.920
<v Speaker 1>Chasing Life on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever

0:31:58.960 --> 0:32:01.720
<v Speaker 1>you get your shows. That's it for us today. Talk

0:32:01.760 --> 0:32:08.000
<v Speaker 1>to you next week now. What with Burke Shields is

0:32:08.000 --> 0:32:12.200
<v Speaker 1>a production of iHeartRadio. Our lead producer and wonderful showrunner

0:32:12.240 --> 0:32:16.560
<v Speaker 1>is Julia Weaver. Additional research and editing by Darby Masters

0:32:16.760 --> 0:32:21.960
<v Speaker 1>and Abu Zafar. Our executive producer is Christina Everett. The

0:32:22.000 --> 0:32:24.080
<v Speaker 1>show is mixed by Vahid Fraser.