1 00:00:04,120 --> 00:00:06,120 Speaker 1: What do you do when life doesn't go according to 2 00:00:06,200 --> 00:00:09,760 Speaker 1: plan that moment you lose a job, or a loved one, 3 00:00:10,280 --> 00:00:14,080 Speaker 1: or even a piece of yourself. I'm Brookshields and this 4 00:00:14,560 --> 00:00:18,759 Speaker 1: is now What a podcast about pivotal moments as told 5 00:00:18,760 --> 00:00:21,599 Speaker 1: by people who lived them. Each week, I sit down 6 00:00:21,600 --> 00:00:23,840 Speaker 1: with a guest to talk about the times they were 7 00:00:23,920 --> 00:00:26,920 Speaker 1: knocked off course and what they did to move forward. 8 00:00:27,880 --> 00:00:33,080 Speaker 1: Some stories are funny, others are gut wrenching, but all 9 00:00:33,360 --> 00:00:38,320 Speaker 1: are unapologetically human and remind us that every success and 10 00:00:38,479 --> 00:00:42,800 Speaker 1: every setback is accompanied by a choice, and that choice 11 00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:50,040 Speaker 1: answers one question. Now, what is it true that we 12 00:00:50,080 --> 00:00:53,360 Speaker 1: really only use a small portion of our brain? Is 13 00:00:53,400 --> 00:00:54,320 Speaker 1: that a myth? 14 00:00:54,640 --> 00:00:57,080 Speaker 2: No? I think it's mostly a myth. I think the 15 00:00:57,080 --> 00:00:59,480 Speaker 2: way to think about it is that if your brain 16 00:00:59,600 --> 00:01:02,360 Speaker 2: were the United States is a country. You need all 17 00:01:02,400 --> 00:01:04,520 Speaker 2: those roads, you know, to get from one place to 18 00:01:04,560 --> 00:01:06,920 Speaker 2: the other. So you and a lot of the places 19 00:01:06,959 --> 00:01:10,280 Speaker 2: of your brain are roads. You're not actually in cities 20 00:01:10,319 --> 00:01:12,360 Speaker 2: at that time. You're just traveling one place to another, 21 00:01:12,400 --> 00:01:15,000 Speaker 2: and you need those roads. We use ten percent of 22 00:01:15,040 --> 00:01:18,160 Speaker 2: our brain ninety percent of the time. It's probably how 23 00:01:18,200 --> 00:01:20,440 Speaker 2: you live in your house. You may spend most of 24 00:01:20,440 --> 00:01:22,600 Speaker 2: your time in your living room or your kitchen. Probably 25 00:01:22,680 --> 00:01:24,840 Speaker 2: if you're like our house, that's where you know. We're 26 00:01:24,880 --> 00:01:28,360 Speaker 2: always aggregated in the kitchen. That's kind of how we 27 00:01:28,400 --> 00:01:30,440 Speaker 2: use our brains. You have other rooms that maybe you 28 00:01:30,480 --> 00:01:32,720 Speaker 2: don't spend nearly as much time and every now and then, 29 00:01:32,959 --> 00:01:35,800 Speaker 2: but not that much. So we use our whole brains, 30 00:01:35,840 --> 00:01:38,560 Speaker 2: but a very small percentage. 31 00:01:38,000 --> 00:01:44,240 Speaker 1: Most of the time. My guest today is one of 32 00:01:44,280 --> 00:01:50,000 Speaker 1: the smartest people I know, doctor Sanjay Gupta. He's a neurosurgeon, 33 00:01:50,080 --> 00:01:53,880 Speaker 1: an Emmy Award winning journalist, an author, and a husband 34 00:01:53,960 --> 00:01:57,640 Speaker 1: and father. He's been a medical correspondent for CNN since 35 00:01:57,680 --> 00:02:01,040 Speaker 1: two thousand and one and has spent two decades providing 36 00:02:01,120 --> 00:02:06,240 Speaker 1: us all with thoughtful, approachable insight into the biggest stories 37 00:02:06,280 --> 00:02:09,960 Speaker 1: in medicine. Like many of you, I turned to him 38 00:02:10,280 --> 00:02:13,639 Speaker 1: during the COVID nineteen pandemic and was always impressed by 39 00:02:13,680 --> 00:02:19,320 Speaker 1: his calm, demeanor and unparalleled intellect. Since twenty twenty, he's 40 00:02:19,320 --> 00:02:25,080 Speaker 1: hosted the podcast Chasing Life, where he digs deep into aging, mindfulness, 41 00:02:25,160 --> 00:02:28,799 Speaker 1: and everything you don't know about the human brain. I 42 00:02:28,880 --> 00:02:32,920 Speaker 1: loved chatting with him and left our conversation feeling smarter 43 00:02:33,520 --> 00:02:43,520 Speaker 1: and more empowered. So here is doctor Sanjay Kutta. Thank 44 00:02:43,560 --> 00:02:46,079 Speaker 1: you so much for joining me today. 45 00:02:46,240 --> 00:02:49,000 Speaker 2: Oh it's my pleasure, Broke. I've really been looking forward 46 00:02:49,000 --> 00:02:51,840 Speaker 2: to this. Do you remember that we've actually met once before? 47 00:02:51,880 --> 00:02:54,720 Speaker 1: It is you too? Concert you remember? Oh? Yeah, of 48 00:02:54,760 --> 00:02:58,959 Speaker 1: course I do. You're not very forgettable. You know that 49 00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:03,800 Speaker 1: it's a great conversation. I remember I was standing up 50 00:03:03,800 --> 00:03:07,359 Speaker 1: really high chatting with you, and that was a highlight 51 00:03:07,440 --> 00:03:07,639 Speaker 1: for me. 52 00:03:07,840 --> 00:03:10,600 Speaker 2: Oh well, my highlight. I still talk about it all 53 00:03:10,639 --> 00:03:13,280 Speaker 2: the time. And I'm a big fan of yours book 54 00:03:13,360 --> 00:03:16,639 Speaker 2: in many different facets of your life. So just wanted 55 00:03:16,639 --> 00:03:17,440 Speaker 2: to tell you that. 56 00:03:17,960 --> 00:03:20,320 Speaker 1: Thank you. And you have you have three daughters. 57 00:03:20,040 --> 00:03:22,440 Speaker 2: Right, I have three daughters, three teenage daughters. 58 00:03:22,680 --> 00:03:24,400 Speaker 1: When are you going to be an empty nester? Because 59 00:03:24,400 --> 00:03:25,959 Speaker 1: I'm that's looming for me. 60 00:03:27,120 --> 00:03:29,840 Speaker 2: So my youngest is fourteen, so we have fourteen, sixteen, 61 00:03:29,880 --> 00:03:32,640 Speaker 2: and eighteen. She's a ninth grader, so I guess, you know, 62 00:03:33,000 --> 00:03:35,760 Speaker 2: four years we just sent one off to college. 63 00:03:36,200 --> 00:03:37,280 Speaker 1: How did your wife do with that? 64 00:03:38,240 --> 00:03:40,760 Speaker 2: You know, I think in some ways she did. She 65 00:03:40,840 --> 00:03:43,600 Speaker 2: did better than I did. I think in part because 66 00:03:43,760 --> 00:03:46,080 Speaker 2: she's so process oriented. 67 00:03:46,360 --> 00:03:47,680 Speaker 1: She's a lawyer, right, she's. 68 00:03:47,560 --> 00:03:50,600 Speaker 2: A lawyer, yes, And I think just just the mom 69 00:03:50,880 --> 00:03:53,960 Speaker 2: part of her, you know, with all the process of 70 00:03:54,040 --> 00:03:57,360 Speaker 2: moving into the dorms and you know, making sure everything's 71 00:03:57,400 --> 00:03:59,760 Speaker 2: all settled. There were just so much process and I 72 00:03:59,800 --> 00:04:01,720 Speaker 2: got to sit back, I think a little bit more 73 00:04:01,800 --> 00:04:05,680 Speaker 2: because I'm very lucky that I have. You know, Rebecca 74 00:04:05,800 --> 00:04:08,320 Speaker 2: just takes on so much. But I think as a 75 00:04:08,360 --> 00:04:11,000 Speaker 2: result that was very emotional for me. I kept reflecting 76 00:04:11,040 --> 00:04:13,760 Speaker 2: on her as a young kid, and you know, just 77 00:04:14,040 --> 00:04:16,240 Speaker 2: you know, saying that thing that I always hated hearing 78 00:04:16,279 --> 00:04:18,960 Speaker 2: when I was a new dad that the years fly by. 79 00:04:19,120 --> 00:04:20,040 Speaker 2: I don't want to hear that. 80 00:04:20,680 --> 00:04:23,480 Speaker 1: The days are long, the years are short. That's what 81 00:04:23,520 --> 00:04:25,839 Speaker 1: I was told exactly, but you know it is true. 82 00:04:25,839 --> 00:04:28,600 Speaker 1: Like I got. I was I was dealing with the 83 00:04:28,680 --> 00:04:31,720 Speaker 1: room and the linens and the bedding and setting up 84 00:04:31,720 --> 00:04:33,680 Speaker 1: the desk and setting up so I was able to 85 00:04:33,720 --> 00:04:37,479 Speaker 1: sort of stay busy. But then when I saw her 86 00:04:37,640 --> 00:04:40,040 Speaker 1: in the ugh, you get choked up in the rear 87 00:04:40,120 --> 00:04:44,480 Speaker 1: view mirror. I my husband said to me, He's like, okay, 88 00:04:44,480 --> 00:04:46,920 Speaker 1: I have one question for you. He said, when when 89 00:04:47,000 --> 00:04:51,320 Speaker 1: you are crying, would you rather cry in an airplane? 90 00:04:51,560 --> 00:04:54,440 Speaker 1: You know, like a flight or would you rather drive 91 00:04:55,040 --> 00:04:57,280 Speaker 1: and cry in the car? And I said, I can't 92 00:04:57,320 --> 00:04:59,840 Speaker 1: be around people. I was like, I need to cry 93 00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:01,039 Speaker 1: a car for eight out. 94 00:05:02,680 --> 00:05:03,919 Speaker 2: You guys drove back. 95 00:05:04,240 --> 00:05:07,160 Speaker 1: We drove back. Yeah, you does. Does your one daughter 96 00:05:07,200 --> 00:05:11,040 Speaker 1: who's in college have any idea what she wants to study? 97 00:05:11,560 --> 00:05:15,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, she does. So she's at UT Austin and there's 98 00:05:15,839 --> 00:05:18,440 Speaker 2: a school there that's called the Moody School. So the 99 00:05:18,800 --> 00:05:21,400 Speaker 2: college is made up of a bunch of different schools, 100 00:05:21,640 --> 00:05:26,160 Speaker 2: different you know, things that they cover and specialize in, 101 00:05:26,160 --> 00:05:28,599 Speaker 2: and the Moody School is sort of marketing and advertising, 102 00:05:29,440 --> 00:05:32,760 Speaker 2: and that's that's what I think she's really interested in. 103 00:05:32,839 --> 00:05:33,679 Speaker 2: You know, she's eighteen. 104 00:05:34,200 --> 00:05:35,200 Speaker 1: How are you supposed to know? 105 00:05:35,920 --> 00:05:37,719 Speaker 2: You don't? You know that you don't. 106 00:05:38,240 --> 00:05:40,240 Speaker 1: Well, you can talk to the brain. You can talk 107 00:05:40,279 --> 00:05:43,600 Speaker 1: about what the brain can and cannot understand at that age. 108 00:05:43,960 --> 00:05:45,640 Speaker 2: I remember a long time ago I read this book 109 00:05:45,640 --> 00:05:50,480 Speaker 2: by Eric Erickson and he talked about the fact that 110 00:05:51,440 --> 00:05:56,640 Speaker 2: most adults probably shouldn't make major life decisions until early thirties. 111 00:05:57,400 --> 00:06:00,760 Speaker 2: And he was talking about profession and marriage and just 112 00:06:00,839 --> 00:06:03,880 Speaker 2: big life decisions and part of it, you know, I 113 00:06:03,920 --> 00:06:05,440 Speaker 2: don't He didn't say this in the book. But part 114 00:06:05,480 --> 00:06:07,200 Speaker 2: of it is that, you know, our brains, to you 115 00:06:07,440 --> 00:06:10,560 Speaker 2: to your question, don't don't really fully develop until mid 116 00:06:10,600 --> 00:06:14,159 Speaker 2: to late twenties, and so we're asking kids to make 117 00:06:14,200 --> 00:06:16,839 Speaker 2: these huge decisions about their lives at a very young age, 118 00:06:16,880 --> 00:06:18,600 Speaker 2: and it's it's it's wild, you know, and you know 119 00:06:18,640 --> 00:06:20,480 Speaker 2: they're going to change their minds, and that's good. It's 120 00:06:20,520 --> 00:06:22,320 Speaker 2: part of the reason we wanted her at a big school, 121 00:06:22,560 --> 00:06:25,640 Speaker 2: just to have, you know, lots of things to see 122 00:06:25,720 --> 00:06:28,200 Speaker 2: and options to choose from. I mean not I know 123 00:06:28,240 --> 00:06:30,160 Speaker 2: this is your podcast, but I mean you raise such 124 00:06:30,200 --> 00:06:33,279 Speaker 2: an interesting point. I mean, did now at this point 125 00:06:33,360 --> 00:06:35,120 Speaker 2: in life do you reflect and say you would have 126 00:06:35,320 --> 00:06:36,320 Speaker 2: chosen something different. 127 00:06:37,160 --> 00:06:40,000 Speaker 1: I can't imagine doing anything different. But it took me 128 00:06:40,080 --> 00:06:43,719 Speaker 1: a while to find what I love within this industry, 129 00:06:43,800 --> 00:06:47,480 Speaker 1: and that's comedy. And I think I knew that in 130 00:06:47,600 --> 00:06:51,680 Speaker 1: one way or another from the time. I mean, I 131 00:06:51,680 --> 00:06:55,279 Speaker 1: have a picture of myself at two and I am 132 00:06:55,480 --> 00:06:58,480 Speaker 1: trying to make my daddy laugh. And I could always 133 00:06:58,480 --> 00:07:00,360 Speaker 1: do that. I could do it from the time I 134 00:07:00,400 --> 00:07:02,840 Speaker 1: was a little kid, and I would I just for 135 00:07:02,880 --> 00:07:07,360 Speaker 1: some reason, there was something intuitively clownish about me. Part 136 00:07:07,360 --> 00:07:09,720 Speaker 1: of it was a defense mechanism. Part of it was, 137 00:07:10,440 --> 00:07:13,520 Speaker 1: oh gosh, a million different things, but that wasn't the 138 00:07:13,520 --> 00:07:16,360 Speaker 1: way my career went. Yeah, but I do. But I 139 00:07:17,560 --> 00:07:21,840 Speaker 1: find that I can't imagine not being a performer in 140 00:07:21,880 --> 00:07:25,160 Speaker 1: one capacity. And then I read that you were very 141 00:07:25,240 --> 00:07:27,840 Speaker 1: musical when you were in school. Were you like a 142 00:07:27,880 --> 00:07:28,920 Speaker 1: theater kid as well? 143 00:07:29,120 --> 00:07:34,160 Speaker 2: Me? Oh, yeah, no, I interestingly enough, I played the 144 00:07:34,240 --> 00:07:35,760 Speaker 2: accordion I took. 145 00:07:35,880 --> 00:07:39,040 Speaker 1: That's perfect, sounds great, It's no. I know. 146 00:07:39,160 --> 00:07:41,640 Speaker 2: It's a source of comedy for sure, But. 147 00:07:41,600 --> 00:07:44,440 Speaker 1: You have to be so agile. You have to use 148 00:07:44,480 --> 00:07:45,920 Speaker 1: both sides of your brain, right. 149 00:07:45,920 --> 00:07:47,240 Speaker 2: You have to use both sides of your brain. You 150 00:07:47,240 --> 00:07:49,760 Speaker 2: have to use both your hands in a blinded way. 151 00:07:49,840 --> 00:07:52,200 Speaker 2: You can't really see your fingers at all, you know, 152 00:07:52,320 --> 00:07:54,400 Speaker 2: especially on the left hand, unless you really lean over 153 00:07:54,440 --> 00:07:56,840 Speaker 2: the instrument. But I'll tell you the funny thing is 154 00:07:56,840 --> 00:08:00,800 Speaker 2: is my parents, both immigrants, big Bollywood fans. They if 155 00:08:00,800 --> 00:08:04,040 Speaker 2: you listen to Bollywood music, there's a lot of accordion playing, 156 00:08:04,120 --> 00:08:07,360 Speaker 2: especially in older Bollywood songs. So when they came to 157 00:08:07,400 --> 00:08:09,600 Speaker 2: the States, you know, and they had their first son, 158 00:08:09,680 --> 00:08:14,040 Speaker 2: they were like, he will play the accordion? Yes, And 159 00:08:14,920 --> 00:08:16,960 Speaker 2: there is no Bollywood accordion playing there. So I was 160 00:08:17,000 --> 00:08:19,679 Speaker 2: mainly playing pokas and stuff like that for ten years, 161 00:08:19,720 --> 00:08:22,600 Speaker 2: and it was just it was a very discordant scene 162 00:08:22,880 --> 00:08:26,160 Speaker 2: because a little Indian kid from rural Michigan playing the 163 00:08:26,200 --> 00:08:30,680 Speaker 2: accordion with mostly like these Polish festivals and things like that. 164 00:08:30,680 --> 00:08:34,440 Speaker 1: That sounds like a Bollywood movie. Tell But so you 165 00:08:34,480 --> 00:08:37,720 Speaker 1: were from Michigan and what were you like as a kid. 166 00:08:38,080 --> 00:08:41,000 Speaker 2: You know, pretty pretty bookish kid. You know, I have 167 00:08:41,120 --> 00:08:44,160 Speaker 2: one brother, he's ten years younger than me, so, you know, 168 00:08:44,240 --> 00:08:47,880 Speaker 2: the up until whatever fifth grade or so, I was 169 00:08:47,920 --> 00:08:52,400 Speaker 2: sort of an only child sixth grade and and really 170 00:08:52,440 --> 00:08:55,720 Speaker 2: small town in Michigan, pretty pretty rural. 171 00:08:55,760 --> 00:08:55,920 Speaker 1: You know. 172 00:08:55,920 --> 00:08:58,800 Speaker 2: My parents both worked for the auto industry, and so 173 00:08:59,160 --> 00:09:01,400 Speaker 2: that's that was the Michigan connection. 174 00:09:02,000 --> 00:09:03,840 Speaker 1: How did that? How does that work? They come their 175 00:09:03,880 --> 00:09:08,240 Speaker 1: immigrants from India? Your mom from Yes? Was she Pakistan 176 00:09:08,360 --> 00:09:08,760 Speaker 1: or so? 177 00:09:08,880 --> 00:09:11,440 Speaker 2: My mom was a what's called the partition child. She 178 00:09:11,559 --> 00:09:14,280 Speaker 2: was born in the subcontinent of India before it was 179 00:09:14,320 --> 00:09:18,319 Speaker 2: subdivided into India and Pakistan. And then during the partition, 180 00:09:18,520 --> 00:09:21,200 Speaker 2: which was in nineteen forty seven, she was five years 181 00:09:21,200 --> 00:09:24,600 Speaker 2: old and she fled, you know, with her family to 182 00:09:25,000 --> 00:09:28,000 Speaker 2: what is now India, and for the first twelve years 183 00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:31,880 Speaker 2: of her life lived as a refugee in these camps 184 00:09:32,360 --> 00:09:36,240 Speaker 2: outside of really outside of Mumbai. And I tell you 185 00:09:36,280 --> 00:09:39,640 Speaker 2: all that because you know, during that time as a refugee, 186 00:09:39,679 --> 00:09:46,120 Speaker 2: she became really fascinated with with engineering and the idea 187 00:09:46,360 --> 00:09:49,120 Speaker 2: that she could one day be an engineer. Even you know, 188 00:09:49,240 --> 00:09:51,680 Speaker 2: imagine being in a refugee camp in India and saying 189 00:09:51,679 --> 00:09:54,600 Speaker 2: I want to be an engineer, mostly being told there 190 00:09:54,600 --> 00:09:55,960 Speaker 2: are no women engineers. 191 00:09:56,320 --> 00:09:59,880 Speaker 1: But she was the first ever engineer at female engineer. 192 00:10:00,480 --> 00:10:02,520 Speaker 2: She was the first female engineer Ford. 193 00:10:02,960 --> 00:10:07,679 Speaker 1: And that's groundbreaking and what an example and how amazing 194 00:10:07,840 --> 00:10:08,520 Speaker 1: it is. 195 00:10:08,600 --> 00:10:10,680 Speaker 2: It's totally amazing. And we grew up with it, you know, 196 00:10:10,880 --> 00:10:14,800 Speaker 2: and and and it's certainly part of our family's story. 197 00:10:15,559 --> 00:10:19,040 Speaker 2: It never stops being amazing, like when we think about it, 198 00:10:19,120 --> 00:10:21,839 Speaker 2: you know, and even in today's world, the idea of 199 00:10:22,520 --> 00:10:25,959 Speaker 2: just overcoming those sorts of challenges and becoming the first 200 00:10:25,960 --> 00:10:28,240 Speaker 2: at something it was hard back then. You know, it's 201 00:10:28,240 --> 00:10:31,480 Speaker 2: still hard now to do that. I will tell you, Brooke, 202 00:10:31,640 --> 00:10:33,719 Speaker 2: it is interesting growing up with a mom like that, 203 00:10:34,440 --> 00:10:39,040 Speaker 2: because there's no I can't do something right, you don't 204 00:10:39,080 --> 00:10:42,040 Speaker 2: get to say that you can't do that, Like I 205 00:10:42,080 --> 00:10:44,959 Speaker 2: was a refugee in a camp in India and I 206 00:10:45,000 --> 00:10:47,559 Speaker 2: traveled by boat and you know, all this sort of stuff. 207 00:10:47,640 --> 00:10:51,720 Speaker 2: And so she's a really she's a really remarkableman, great grandmother. 208 00:10:51,800 --> 00:10:54,880 Speaker 2: Now she has five granddaughters. My brother has two daughters. 209 00:10:54,920 --> 00:10:58,760 Speaker 2: We have three. And it's just it's it's remains amazing. 210 00:10:58,800 --> 00:11:02,160 Speaker 1: And fund that was that a source of pressure or 211 00:11:02,320 --> 00:11:04,960 Speaker 1: encouragement for you? That's a kid. 212 00:11:05,240 --> 00:11:08,720 Speaker 2: That's a great question. I I it was, it was 213 00:11:08,760 --> 00:11:11,080 Speaker 2: a It was a healthy pressure. I would say it 214 00:11:11,120 --> 00:11:13,679 Speaker 2: was definitely definitely a I mean, I think that if 215 00:11:13,720 --> 00:11:18,120 Speaker 2: your parents have sacrificed that much to live in this country, 216 00:11:18,160 --> 00:11:21,120 Speaker 2: to try and make the best that they can have things, 217 00:11:21,800 --> 00:11:25,160 Speaker 2: you feel a certain sense of obligation I think as 218 00:11:25,200 --> 00:11:29,640 Speaker 2: an immigrant's immigrant family's child to live up to that. 219 00:11:30,120 --> 00:11:33,480 Speaker 2: It wasn't overt That's why I say it's healthy. It wasn't. Hey, 220 00:11:33,600 --> 00:11:36,040 Speaker 2: we sacrifice so much, therefore you have to do X 221 00:11:36,160 --> 00:11:38,000 Speaker 2: y Z. But you felt it. 222 00:11:38,720 --> 00:11:40,640 Speaker 1: But it's so interesting because I do feel like our 223 00:11:40,800 --> 00:11:46,080 Speaker 1: family's experiences really do they shape us? How can they not? 224 00:11:46,640 --> 00:11:51,640 Speaker 1: But your mom also she had I mean, she experienced 225 00:11:51,760 --> 00:11:55,400 Speaker 1: trauma as as well, right, I mean just the trauma 226 00:11:55,400 --> 00:11:57,240 Speaker 1: of did she did she have siblings? 227 00:11:57,600 --> 00:12:01,520 Speaker 2: Yep? She has, she has three seven links. She had 228 00:12:01,559 --> 00:12:04,000 Speaker 2: other siblings that were older than her that didnt that 229 00:12:04,200 --> 00:12:08,920 Speaker 2: did not survive. So she yeah, there's Look, there's there's trauma, 230 00:12:09,040 --> 00:12:12,560 Speaker 2: you know. And it's funny. One thing, Brooke and this, 231 00:12:12,559 --> 00:12:16,800 Speaker 2: this still surprises me about my mom is that she 232 00:12:17,600 --> 00:12:20,719 Speaker 2: would rather not talk about that stuff and and and 233 00:12:20,880 --> 00:12:23,160 Speaker 2: that's not that surprising. But what is surprising, I think 234 00:12:23,200 --> 00:12:26,120 Speaker 2: is it almost a sense of embarrassment about it. Like 235 00:12:26,160 --> 00:12:28,760 Speaker 2: it's almost like, you know, I don't want to show 236 00:12:28,800 --> 00:12:31,920 Speaker 2: you my dirty house or invite you over my my 237 00:12:32,160 --> 00:12:34,720 Speaker 2: you know, dirty laundry. It's just it's like the person 238 00:12:34,720 --> 00:12:36,800 Speaker 2: who falls down the stairs and pops right back up. 239 00:12:36,840 --> 00:12:39,920 Speaker 2: Oh I'm fine, nothing, I'm good, I'm It's kind of 240 00:12:39,960 --> 00:12:42,360 Speaker 2: like that, but extended to her her life in a way. 241 00:12:42,520 --> 00:12:45,360 Speaker 2: And it's something I don't think I realized until I 242 00:12:45,520 --> 00:12:48,559 Speaker 2: was much older myself about her and and could think 243 00:12:48,600 --> 00:12:51,320 Speaker 2: about things more I think from her point of view, 244 00:12:51,920 --> 00:12:54,480 Speaker 2: Like I asked her about some of these things, and 245 00:12:54,520 --> 00:12:57,000 Speaker 2: she'll say to me, is this something that you're gonna 246 00:12:57,120 --> 00:13:01,880 Speaker 2: tell the girls? Meaning my daughters, and I say, well, yeah, 247 00:13:01,920 --> 00:13:04,200 Speaker 2: I mean I think that they should, and she's like, 248 00:13:04,240 --> 00:13:05,880 Speaker 2: I don't. I just don't think you should tell them 249 00:13:05,920 --> 00:13:09,000 Speaker 2: this stuff. And and so it's not that there is 250 00:13:09,040 --> 00:13:10,680 Speaker 2: a some for some people, there's a badge. 251 00:13:10,480 --> 00:13:13,360 Speaker 1: Of cultural Is it cultural or is it. 252 00:13:13,559 --> 00:13:15,920 Speaker 2: Maybe it's cultural? I mean I do know other partition 253 00:13:16,360 --> 00:13:20,320 Speaker 2: folks from around her age group that talk about it 254 00:13:20,400 --> 00:13:23,240 Speaker 2: quite openly. But I think I think it's more personal. 255 00:13:23,360 --> 00:13:25,839 Speaker 2: Like my mom had cancer several years ago and she 256 00:13:25,840 --> 00:13:28,000 Speaker 2: didn't want people to know that either. I think there 257 00:13:28,080 --> 00:13:29,840 Speaker 2: is this. I think if you've lived the life of 258 00:13:29,840 --> 00:13:32,440 Speaker 2: a refugee where so much of your life ends up 259 00:13:32,480 --> 00:13:35,440 Speaker 2: having to be transactional, I mean that's how you survive 260 00:13:35,520 --> 00:13:39,920 Speaker 2: in a refugee camp, then you you don't you're you're 261 00:13:39,960 --> 00:13:44,240 Speaker 2: you're a little reluctant to show those vulnerabilities about yourself. 262 00:13:49,640 --> 00:13:53,320 Speaker 1: I call this podcast now What because it's about pivotal 263 00:13:53,320 --> 00:13:55,760 Speaker 1: moments in our lives. Yeah, you know, it's about those 264 00:13:55,840 --> 00:14:00,040 Speaker 1: moments where you ask yourself, oh my god, now what 265 00:14:00,120 --> 00:14:04,360 Speaker 1: do I do? And I'm faced with this and they're 266 00:14:04,400 --> 00:14:09,880 Speaker 1: pivotal moments. And I'm fascinated by why some people stay 267 00:14:09,960 --> 00:14:14,200 Speaker 1: laying down, lying down, I did go to college or promise, 268 00:14:14,800 --> 00:14:19,960 Speaker 1: and others bounce right back up. And is there an 269 00:14:20,040 --> 00:14:23,520 Speaker 1: element in the brain that you've seen that's consistent as 270 00:14:23,600 --> 00:14:28,200 Speaker 1: to why people become allow themselves to see themselves as 271 00:14:28,320 --> 00:14:34,560 Speaker 1: victims versus see themselves as survivors or warriors. 272 00:14:35,280 --> 00:14:37,920 Speaker 2: I absolutely think there is, you know, and this is 273 00:14:37,960 --> 00:14:40,320 Speaker 2: something that I've thought a lot about. I mean, I 274 00:14:40,760 --> 00:14:43,760 Speaker 2: would maybe widen the aperture a little bit, and to 275 00:14:43,800 --> 00:14:46,120 Speaker 2: say that, I think there are some people who, when 276 00:14:46,240 --> 00:14:50,960 Speaker 2: confronted with the daily events of our world and just 277 00:14:51,000 --> 00:14:52,600 Speaker 2: all the stuff that's going on, there are some people 278 00:14:52,680 --> 00:14:57,680 Speaker 2: who are just crushed by that, seemingly paralyzed by that, 279 00:14:57,720 --> 00:14:59,720 Speaker 2: whether or not they see themselves as the victim, it's 280 00:14:59,760 --> 00:15:03,160 Speaker 2: over whelming. And there are other people who are almost 281 00:15:03,160 --> 00:15:06,560 Speaker 2: strengthened by it, like you would if you were to 282 00:15:06,600 --> 00:15:08,920 Speaker 2: think about it metaphorically, like going to the gym and 283 00:15:08,960 --> 00:15:11,760 Speaker 2: getting a good workout, and yes, it was hard to 284 00:15:11,800 --> 00:15:13,680 Speaker 2: push the weight or whatever you were doing, but now 285 00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:16,240 Speaker 2: you're stronger as a result, if you were to think 286 00:15:16,280 --> 00:15:19,360 Speaker 2: of the brain that way. And I think the core ingredient, 287 00:15:19,440 --> 00:15:21,240 Speaker 2: and a lot of people have written about this, is 288 00:15:21,680 --> 00:15:27,760 Speaker 2: this idea of resilience of the brain, and to expand 289 00:15:27,760 --> 00:15:30,280 Speaker 2: on that to say, the redundancy in the brain. Do 290 00:15:30,280 --> 00:15:33,000 Speaker 2: you have more redundancy to be able to handle these things? 291 00:15:34,040 --> 00:15:37,040 Speaker 2: And I think that makes a big difference. And it's 292 00:15:37,080 --> 00:15:39,280 Speaker 2: not that you necessarily need to keep going through trauma 293 00:15:39,280 --> 00:15:42,160 Speaker 2: and build up some tolerance to the trauma. It is 294 00:15:42,200 --> 00:15:44,880 Speaker 2: if your brain is a brain that is doing lots 295 00:15:44,920 --> 00:15:48,760 Speaker 2: of different things, you tend to build more brain cells 296 00:15:48,800 --> 00:15:52,120 Speaker 2: and have more redundancy and thus more resilience. And when 297 00:15:52,160 --> 00:15:56,040 Speaker 2: you're confronted with something, you're not crushed by it. You 298 00:15:56,080 --> 00:15:57,600 Speaker 2: may even be strengthened by it. 299 00:15:58,200 --> 00:16:00,800 Speaker 1: How did you decide to become a brain searching. 300 00:16:01,320 --> 00:16:04,760 Speaker 2: You know it? Nobody in my family is a doctor 301 00:16:04,880 --> 00:16:07,120 Speaker 2: or a brain surgion. Most of my colleagues that was 302 00:16:07,160 --> 00:16:09,880 Speaker 2: sort of their their trajectory. They had, you know, people 303 00:16:09,920 --> 00:16:14,280 Speaker 2: in their parents or somebody. But for me, my mom's 304 00:16:14,360 --> 00:16:17,360 Speaker 2: dad got sick when I was around thirteen years old, 305 00:16:17,440 --> 00:16:21,080 Speaker 2: had had a stroke, and we're very close and I 306 00:16:21,120 --> 00:16:22,240 Speaker 2: would spend a lot of time with them on the 307 00:16:22,280 --> 00:16:23,760 Speaker 2: hospital at that point, and I think it was the 308 00:16:23,760 --> 00:16:27,280 Speaker 2: first time I sort of realized that, like going into 309 00:16:27,320 --> 00:16:31,760 Speaker 2: medicine could be a good profession. My parents are both engineers, 310 00:16:31,800 --> 00:16:35,520 Speaker 2: and so the expectation my dad's a mathematician, was the 311 00:16:35,560 --> 00:16:39,240 Speaker 2: expectation was that I'd go into engineering or some math 312 00:16:39,360 --> 00:16:42,360 Speaker 2: or something like that. Going into medicine, to be honest, 313 00:16:42,480 --> 00:16:45,720 Speaker 2: was pretty expensive, you know, to make that commitment to 314 00:16:45,720 --> 00:16:48,280 Speaker 2: go to medical school and everything. So but I think 315 00:16:48,320 --> 00:16:50,560 Speaker 2: around that age I sort of thought about it for 316 00:16:50,600 --> 00:16:53,440 Speaker 2: the first time, and with my grandfather and the stroke, 317 00:16:53,520 --> 00:16:56,040 Speaker 2: I became very interested in the brain. You know. He 318 00:16:56,080 --> 00:16:58,320 Speaker 2: had this really interesting thing that happened to him during 319 00:16:58,400 --> 00:17:02,000 Speaker 2: his stroke, which is that he could he could write fine, 320 00:17:02,040 --> 00:17:05,680 Speaker 2: he could speak fine, but he could not understand. In fact, 321 00:17:05,880 --> 00:17:08,639 Speaker 2: he could write something and not read what he just wrote. 322 00:17:09,680 --> 00:17:12,560 Speaker 2: And I remember thinking, like, even as a pretty you know, 323 00:17:12,600 --> 00:17:16,080 Speaker 2: a teenager at that point, that that's wild that the 324 00:17:16,119 --> 00:17:19,640 Speaker 2: brain does that. And I think it was it sort 325 00:17:19,640 --> 00:17:22,439 Speaker 2: of ignited a little bit of something in terms of 326 00:17:22,480 --> 00:17:24,520 Speaker 2: just trying to read a lot about the brain and 327 00:17:24,560 --> 00:17:28,119 Speaker 2: becoming increasingly interested in it. I didn't think neurosurgery was 328 00:17:28,160 --> 00:17:31,000 Speaker 2: going to be the path initially, you know, because it 329 00:17:32,000 --> 00:17:34,440 Speaker 2: seemed too intense, to be honest with you, seven years 330 00:17:34,440 --> 00:17:38,000 Speaker 2: of training after medical school. But as I got closer 331 00:17:38,040 --> 00:17:39,840 Speaker 2: and closer. I thought to myself, you know what, I 332 00:17:39,840 --> 00:17:40,920 Speaker 2: think I could do this. 333 00:17:41,480 --> 00:17:43,639 Speaker 1: And I guess a stroke. My mother had a stroke 334 00:17:43,800 --> 00:17:46,120 Speaker 1: as well, or she'd like sort of a series of 335 00:17:46,640 --> 00:17:52,120 Speaker 1: mini strokes, and she started not being able to really 336 00:17:54,000 --> 00:17:59,720 Speaker 1: her verbal communication changed, but she started singing, oh interesting 337 00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:04,480 Speaker 1: in this like kind of beautiful, almost like a falsetto. 338 00:18:04,840 --> 00:18:06,840 Speaker 1: And I mean, you know, of course it was creepy 339 00:18:06,880 --> 00:18:08,919 Speaker 1: to me because she would call me and sing and 340 00:18:08,960 --> 00:18:12,000 Speaker 1: I'd be like, you're creeping me out, mom, But that 341 00:18:12,240 --> 00:18:17,879 Speaker 1: was it was such an interesting shift in her that 342 00:18:17,960 --> 00:18:20,880 Speaker 1: I find. You know, that was sort of when you 343 00:18:21,200 --> 00:18:24,000 Speaker 1: talked about your grandfather. What do you think that the 344 00:18:24,040 --> 00:18:27,399 Speaker 1: most I mean, what have you discovered as the most 345 00:18:28,119 --> 00:18:35,080 Speaker 1: interesting aspect or striking thing about operating on a brain? 346 00:18:35,960 --> 00:18:38,639 Speaker 1: Actual brain, like you're holding it. 347 00:18:38,640 --> 00:18:41,760 Speaker 2: It's wild, it's the it's the brain is the most 348 00:18:43,040 --> 00:18:46,159 Speaker 2: enigmatic three and a half pounds of flesh in the 349 00:18:46,200 --> 00:18:49,040 Speaker 2: known universe. And I think about it every time I 350 00:18:49,080 --> 00:18:51,440 Speaker 2: operate on it, because you know, going back to sort 351 00:18:51,480 --> 00:18:54,440 Speaker 2: of this idea of being process oriented, when you're operating, 352 00:18:54,520 --> 00:18:57,080 Speaker 2: you have a you have a thing that you're trying 353 00:18:57,080 --> 00:19:00,000 Speaker 2: to do, you know, remove a brain tumor or put 354 00:18:59,880 --> 00:19:03,040 Speaker 2: a clip around an aneurysm or whatever it might be. 355 00:19:03,720 --> 00:19:05,439 Speaker 2: But when you sit back and just look at the 356 00:19:05,480 --> 00:19:07,880 Speaker 2: brain sometimes I think, you know, one of the things 357 00:19:07,880 --> 00:19:11,720 Speaker 2: that still strikes me about the brain is that it's 358 00:19:11,880 --> 00:19:15,200 Speaker 2: it's so delicate, like I I, I don't know. I 359 00:19:15,480 --> 00:19:17,400 Speaker 2: feel like, you know, we're used to like the very 360 00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:19,640 Speaker 2: important things in our life. We're gonna like really make 361 00:19:19,760 --> 00:19:22,600 Speaker 2: tough and protect it. So like when you actually touch 362 00:19:22,640 --> 00:19:25,760 Speaker 2: the brain, it feels like like a piece of shrimp cocktail. 363 00:19:25,920 --> 00:19:28,280 Speaker 2: You know, it's it's so soft and and. 364 00:19:28,560 --> 00:19:30,160 Speaker 1: I may never eat shrimp cocktail again. 365 00:19:31,520 --> 00:19:38,480 Speaker 2: Sorry, thank you for that allish allergies out there, surgents, 366 00:19:38,760 --> 00:19:40,600 Speaker 2: But you know, it's just you think it would put 367 00:19:40,680 --> 00:19:43,680 Speaker 2: up more of a fight in some ways to protect itself. 368 00:19:43,880 --> 00:19:47,680 Speaker 2: But it's it's it's still I I love doing it 369 00:19:48,520 --> 00:19:52,480 Speaker 2: performing brain surgery. I think there's a real you know, 370 00:19:52,480 --> 00:19:53,760 Speaker 2: you go to school for a long time, but there's 371 00:19:53,760 --> 00:19:57,679 Speaker 2: also sort of a real physical component to it. You know. 372 00:19:57,760 --> 00:19:59,720 Speaker 2: I have one a daughter who's a dancer, and she's 373 00:19:59,720 --> 00:20:02,560 Speaker 2: just so focused on her dancing moves, and she's so 374 00:20:03,040 --> 00:20:05,680 Speaker 2: good at that sort of stuff. I had. I'm I'm 375 00:20:05,720 --> 00:20:09,280 Speaker 2: not naturally, so so you know, I had, I had 376 00:20:09,280 --> 00:20:11,360 Speaker 2: to practice a lot with my hands, but I love 377 00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:14,240 Speaker 2: that physical aspect of it as well, and not still 378 00:20:14,840 --> 00:20:17,159 Speaker 2: is a source of great joy for me after all 379 00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:17,680 Speaker 2: these years. 380 00:20:18,119 --> 00:20:21,439 Speaker 1: How do you develop the instincts that you need to 381 00:20:21,520 --> 00:20:26,159 Speaker 1: make those very difficult decisions that. 382 00:20:26,400 --> 00:20:28,640 Speaker 2: Can be one of the most challenging parts of things 383 00:20:28,720 --> 00:20:32,560 Speaker 2: you write, Brooke, I mean, I think in some cases, 384 00:20:32,720 --> 00:20:35,960 Speaker 2: to operate or not operates very clear. You know, someone 385 00:20:36,000 --> 00:20:40,159 Speaker 2: has had a recent trauma and now needs to decompress 386 00:20:40,200 --> 00:20:42,639 Speaker 2: their brain, or a type of tumor that can be 387 00:20:42,680 --> 00:20:46,480 Speaker 2: resected that could you know, dramatically prolong their life. All 388 00:20:46,760 --> 00:20:49,040 Speaker 2: that sort of stuff is very clear, But sometimes it's 389 00:20:49,040 --> 00:20:50,879 Speaker 2: not as clear. You're not sure that someone's going to 390 00:20:50,960 --> 00:20:54,400 Speaker 2: have a good outcome. And you know, having those conversations 391 00:20:54,440 --> 00:20:57,760 Speaker 2: with your patients in a very honest and hopeful way, 392 00:20:57,960 --> 00:21:00,439 Speaker 2: you can balance hope and honesty. You know a lot 393 00:21:00,480 --> 00:21:02,440 Speaker 2: of times, you know, the idea of hope is is 394 00:21:02,520 --> 00:21:05,200 Speaker 2: I think, given short shrift. But people who have hope, 395 00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:07,600 Speaker 2: they tend to do better, you know, they tend to 396 00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:10,720 Speaker 2: have better outcomes. But finding that balance, and I will 397 00:21:10,720 --> 00:21:14,000 Speaker 2: tell you that, you know, I train residents and medical students. 398 00:21:14,080 --> 00:21:16,960 Speaker 2: They're younger than I am. I have three teenagers, I 399 00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:20,160 Speaker 2: have parents who are in their eighties. Now I think 400 00:21:20,200 --> 00:21:23,919 Speaker 2: I have a different worldview. I truly imagine, like, my 401 00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:27,000 Speaker 2: mom's a very healthy eighty year old. A lot of 402 00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:29,320 Speaker 2: times you hear, oh, person's coming to the hospital eighty 403 00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:31,040 Speaker 2: years old with such and such, and you think, oh, 404 00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:34,520 Speaker 2: eighty years old, that's old. Well, if that were my mom, 405 00:21:35,359 --> 00:21:39,320 Speaker 2: she's driving, she's totally independent, she has a really play 406 00:21:39,359 --> 00:21:42,440 Speaker 2: shuffle board, has a really joyful life. Like I would 407 00:21:42,480 --> 00:21:45,159 Speaker 2: totally operate on that, Whereas the instinct might be, you know, 408 00:21:45,359 --> 00:21:47,520 Speaker 2: is there should there be an age cutoff? I'm just 409 00:21:47,680 --> 00:21:49,600 Speaker 2: using that as an example. Yeah, But I think as 410 00:21:49,640 --> 00:21:51,720 Speaker 2: you get older, as I've been doing this a long 411 00:21:51,760 --> 00:21:55,360 Speaker 2: time now, that judgment that you're asking about, I think 412 00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:57,919 Speaker 2: ends up becoming probably the most important thing because the 413 00:21:57,920 --> 00:22:01,720 Speaker 2: surgical skills, you know, I did seven years of training, 414 00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:03,400 Speaker 2: I did a year of fellowship. I've been doing this 415 00:22:03,840 --> 00:22:06,560 Speaker 2: for the last twenty years. All the time, you know 416 00:22:07,040 --> 00:22:09,639 Speaker 2: that part is less of a concern than it is 417 00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:10,520 Speaker 2: just the judgment. 418 00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:14,159 Speaker 1: Do you have any now what moments yourself in or 419 00:22:14,200 --> 00:22:19,240 Speaker 1: an era or times where you've just really said, Wow, 420 00:22:19,359 --> 00:22:23,560 Speaker 1: what am I positive or negative? Yeah? 421 00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:26,600 Speaker 2: I think I've had a lot, you know, I think 422 00:22:27,359 --> 00:22:31,240 Speaker 2: on a professional level, I think this idea of straddling 423 00:22:31,280 --> 00:22:35,600 Speaker 2: two worlds of medicine, which is still my first and 424 00:22:35,640 --> 00:22:39,800 Speaker 2: truest love professionally and then the media world and saying 425 00:22:39,880 --> 00:22:42,000 Speaker 2: is this something that I could could add to that 426 00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:44,720 Speaker 2: or do as well? I think was a really significant 427 00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:46,280 Speaker 2: moment I came to that sort of mid life or 428 00:22:46,320 --> 00:22:48,280 Speaker 2: mid career I should say. You know, I was in 429 00:22:48,320 --> 00:22:51,280 Speaker 2: my early thirties at that point, and so to add 430 00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:55,000 Speaker 2: something that I had never done before to your life 431 00:22:55,320 --> 00:22:57,919 Speaker 2: and also have it be something that is that is 432 00:22:59,480 --> 00:23:01,439 Speaker 2: very public, like you know, you know, I was in 433 00:23:01,560 --> 00:23:04,919 Speaker 2: again an Indian kid living in rural Michigan who you know, 434 00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:08,200 Speaker 2: really did not have ever had those kinds of experiences 435 00:23:08,240 --> 00:23:11,479 Speaker 2: or interactions with people. To do television, that was a 436 00:23:11,760 --> 00:23:14,040 Speaker 2: that was an interesting pivot. And when I started, I 437 00:23:14,040 --> 00:23:16,040 Speaker 2: thought I was going to be mainly talking about health 438 00:23:16,080 --> 00:23:18,960 Speaker 2: policy because I had written a lot about health policy. 439 00:23:19,880 --> 00:23:22,760 Speaker 2: And I started in August of two thousand and one, 440 00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:26,000 Speaker 2: brook and three and a half weeks later, nine to 441 00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:29,520 Speaker 2: eleven happened, And so they just hired a guy to 442 00:23:29,600 --> 00:23:33,119 Speaker 2: mainly a doc to do health policy commentary, probably mostly 443 00:23:33,119 --> 00:23:35,800 Speaker 2: on the Sunday shows. And now they said, hey, we're 444 00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:37,680 Speaker 2: probably not going to be talking about that for a while, 445 00:23:37,720 --> 00:23:40,199 Speaker 2: considering what's happening in the world. But now you're a 446 00:23:40,240 --> 00:23:42,920 Speaker 2: doc working at an international news network in the middle 447 00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:45,520 Speaker 2: of this. And then and then all the things, you know, 448 00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:49,360 Speaker 2: I covered the war in Afghanistan, covered the Warner Rock, 449 00:23:49,520 --> 00:23:53,080 Speaker 2: you know, anthrax, covered just about every major conflict that 450 00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:56,720 Speaker 2: has happened over the last twenty one years, and natural 451 00:23:56,760 --> 00:23:59,480 Speaker 2: disasters and pandemics, and that was never sort of the 452 00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:02,680 Speaker 2: original plan. So I think that now what moment when 453 00:24:02,680 --> 00:24:05,199 Speaker 2: they first said this, you know, you know, also I 454 00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:07,639 Speaker 2: had this new practice in eurosurgery. You know that I 455 00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:10,280 Speaker 2: was and can you do this? And I had and 456 00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:13,080 Speaker 2: I and I was, you know, had young children, so 457 00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:15,800 Speaker 2: you know, all of that was sort of happening at 458 00:24:15,800 --> 00:24:18,200 Speaker 2: the same time. But I think professionally that was it. 459 00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:21,400 Speaker 2: And then personally, I mean, you know better than anyone, 460 00:24:21,640 --> 00:24:25,480 Speaker 2: I mean, having kids is I think a lot of 461 00:24:25,520 --> 00:24:29,080 Speaker 2: people who are nursing never have families. You know, you 462 00:24:29,119 --> 00:24:33,440 Speaker 2: spend most of your life during your formative years training, 463 00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:35,680 Speaker 2: you know, and back then it was one hundred hours 464 00:24:35,720 --> 00:24:38,040 Speaker 2: a week, so you know, trying to put another person 465 00:24:38,119 --> 00:24:41,400 Speaker 2: or people through that with you is a big ask. 466 00:24:42,119 --> 00:24:45,600 Speaker 2: So that was that was a you know, like, wow, 467 00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:48,399 Speaker 2: I have children now that that was sort of an 468 00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:51,120 Speaker 2: amazing I for a good chunk of my life did 469 00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:54,480 Speaker 2: not think that was going to happen, and here we. 470 00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:57,879 Speaker 1: Are, and then you get three girls girls. Yeah, oh 471 00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:00,720 Speaker 1: my god, yes the track. 472 00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:05,320 Speaker 2: Whenever I say that. 473 00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:07,679 Speaker 1: Yeah, they are honestly the most. They bring me to 474 00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:11,200 Speaker 1: my knees more more often than not. And then they 475 00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:16,880 Speaker 1: surprise me with their capacity for love and caring and 476 00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:20,920 Speaker 1: and all of that. Switching a little bit, you are 477 00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:25,240 Speaker 1: in your seventh season of Chasing Life. Yes, can you 478 00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:27,760 Speaker 1: talk a little bit about the premise of that show? 479 00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:32,520 Speaker 2: And so Chasing Life actually originally started during the pandemic 480 00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:35,639 Speaker 2: and it was more of an opportunity to the podcast. 481 00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:37,600 Speaker 2: And I don't know how how much prep time you 482 00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:40,280 Speaker 2: got when you started your podcast, but I was called 483 00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:42,160 Speaker 2: on a Friday and said, can you start Monday. 484 00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:48,760 Speaker 1: Wow. I have a wonderful producer who keeps it, keeps 485 00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:51,640 Speaker 1: me abreast, so to speak, of things that I can 486 00:25:51,920 --> 00:25:54,439 Speaker 1: that I can do while I'm traveling and get as 487 00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:57,880 Speaker 1: much because I love homework. So I'm a big, you know, homework, 488 00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:01,280 Speaker 1: homework person. But maybe that's the maybe that's the way 489 00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:04,600 Speaker 1: you thrive, you know, clearly thrive on your feet. 490 00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:06,920 Speaker 2: I would I would have liked a little bit more time, 491 00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:11,080 Speaker 2: to be totally honest. But I love podcasting. I love podcasts. 492 00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:15,160 Speaker 2: I listened to podcasts. I think there's a real intimacy 493 00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:18,720 Speaker 2: about it. The basic gist of Chasing Life is that 494 00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:22,440 Speaker 2: kind of wish you were talking about. The body is 495 00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:26,840 Speaker 2: this amazing thing. It can heal itself really well, and 496 00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:30,560 Speaker 2: it can be optimized in ways that we haven't fully appreciated. 497 00:26:31,920 --> 00:26:34,760 Speaker 2: A lot of the reason we're not optimized is because 498 00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:37,479 Speaker 2: we do things to our bodies that are bad as 499 00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:40,760 Speaker 2: opposed to not doing things. So it's as much about 500 00:26:41,119 --> 00:26:44,120 Speaker 2: seeing these cultures around the world where people live these 501 00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:48,520 Speaker 2: really healthy, happy, long lives, what we can learn from them, 502 00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:52,520 Speaker 2: and you know, traveling around the world and really immersing 503 00:26:52,520 --> 00:26:55,080 Speaker 2: myself in those cultures. That was a lot of Chasing Life. 504 00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:58,520 Speaker 2: This season, I've decided to in some ways go back 505 00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:02,800 Speaker 2: to my roots all about the brain, and every episode 506 00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:08,359 Speaker 2: is something blank brain, meaning the motivated brain, the attentive brain, 507 00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:13,399 Speaker 2: the depressed brain, whatever it might be, and trying to 508 00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:16,160 Speaker 2: figure out, like, with what we know now about the brain, 509 00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:18,520 Speaker 2: which is a lot more than people realize, with what 510 00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:22,119 Speaker 2: we know now, how can you create a more attentive brain? 511 00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:25,159 Speaker 2: And that's what I really wanted to focus on, and 512 00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:29,159 Speaker 2: selfishly whenever, Like you, I love homework and so I 513 00:27:29,359 --> 00:27:32,399 Speaker 2: learn a lot. Even though I'm a neurosurgeon, how to, 514 00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:37,359 Speaker 2: you know, protect my brain against some of the daily 515 00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:39,399 Speaker 2: challenges we were talking about earlier, how to make the 516 00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:42,840 Speaker 2: more resilient brain. There's real information out there that I 517 00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:43,960 Speaker 2: think can be helpful to people. 518 00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:47,919 Speaker 1: One of the things I love about your podcast is 519 00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:52,159 Speaker 1: that you interviewed your parents and you ask them what 520 00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:56,800 Speaker 1: advice that they would give to their twenty five I 521 00:27:56,840 --> 00:28:00,160 Speaker 1: think it was your old selves. So I would just 522 00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:02,840 Speaker 1: like to ask you that question, what advice would you 523 00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:06,240 Speaker 1: give your twenty five year old self? 524 00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:09,960 Speaker 2: I think that, uh, you know, it's funny. I didn't 525 00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:12,040 Speaker 2: really think about that for myself. I was thinking about 526 00:28:12,040 --> 00:28:14,840 Speaker 2: it for my parents. But you know, I think that 527 00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:18,359 Speaker 2: what I would basically say is that there are things 528 00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:20,360 Speaker 2: that I paid a lot of attention to that did 529 00:28:20,359 --> 00:28:22,359 Speaker 2: not end up being that important in my life. I 530 00:28:23,600 --> 00:28:27,080 Speaker 2: overtilted towards certain things, thinking that they were going to 531 00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:30,919 Speaker 2: be these huge important things that were going to dictate 532 00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:32,640 Speaker 2: how my life would go, for good or for bad, 533 00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:35,640 Speaker 2: and they weren't. And I probably knew that at the time, 534 00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:37,919 Speaker 2: And there were probably things that I wish I had 535 00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:41,720 Speaker 2: paid more attention to as well. And so it's hard 536 00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:43,840 Speaker 2: to know when you're twenty five. It's hard to get 537 00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:46,840 Speaker 2: yourself in that headspace. If you really sit down and 538 00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:49,280 Speaker 2: think about it, you probably can figure it out. But 539 00:28:49,360 --> 00:28:51,640 Speaker 2: the other thing is that, you know, I have people 540 00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:54,640 Speaker 2: in my life who are sort of frame shifted from 541 00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:57,160 Speaker 2: me about twenty years. You know, my parents are a 542 00:28:57,160 --> 00:28:59,720 Speaker 2: bit older than that. The age gap is a little 543 00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:02,280 Speaker 2: bit more. But I spend a lot of time talking 544 00:29:02,360 --> 00:29:04,800 Speaker 2: to people who are fifteen to twenty years older than 545 00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:07,240 Speaker 2: me and just be like, hey, man, is this my 546 00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:09,920 Speaker 2: overdoing it on this thing? Tell me? And he's gonna 547 00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:11,600 Speaker 2: be like, dude, you're not even going to remember that 548 00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:14,520 Speaker 2: two years from now. You won't even think about it again. 549 00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:17,960 Speaker 2: I guarantee it. And here I am obsessed with, like 550 00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:19,640 Speaker 2: I don't even know what it might be, some simple 551 00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:23,240 Speaker 2: thing you know, whether it be about my kid's school 552 00:29:23,360 --> 00:29:27,200 Speaker 2: or finances, or you know, whatever it might be, and 553 00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:30,960 Speaker 2: just getting that constant perspective. So I would give myself 554 00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:34,120 Speaker 2: that advice. Really reflect on what you think is going 555 00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:37,360 Speaker 2: to be important, to be honest about that and talk 556 00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:40,239 Speaker 2: to people who are older than you and benefit from 557 00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:40,800 Speaker 2: their wisdom. 558 00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:45,920 Speaker 1: Well, I love your podcast, and I'm learning about I 559 00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:51,080 Speaker 1: had very severe postpartum and the one I understood the 560 00:29:51,160 --> 00:29:55,120 Speaker 1: biochemical what was happening in my brain when I looked 561 00:29:55,160 --> 00:29:59,360 Speaker 1: at it from a brain perspective, from a hormonally and 562 00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:02,280 Speaker 1: from the first time in my life, not being able 563 00:30:02,320 --> 00:30:05,720 Speaker 1: to power through something that was what was freeing. So 564 00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:08,120 Speaker 1: I think that one of the things your podcast this 565 00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:11,280 Speaker 1: season in particular is doing is that it's that type 566 00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:14,360 Speaker 1: of information is liberating to people. 567 00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:18,640 Speaker 2: Well, look, I really know. Well, thank you for saying that, Brooke. 568 00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:22,480 Speaker 2: I mean, I remember you talking about your postpartum quite 569 00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:24,239 Speaker 2: a bit and I wanted to tell you that, you know, 570 00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:28,920 Speaker 2: I don't Around that time, I thought it was an 571 00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:31,400 Speaker 2: opportunity because you were talking about it, to try and 572 00:30:31,520 --> 00:30:35,600 Speaker 2: educate the audience about these issues. And one of the 573 00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:37,400 Speaker 2: studies that I showed, and this is a long time 574 00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:39,840 Speaker 2: ago now, and we know, I think girls have grown 575 00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:42,600 Speaker 2: right since that time. But one of the studies that 576 00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:45,400 Speaker 2: came out right around that time was a study that 577 00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:50,280 Speaker 2: actually imaged the brain functionally, and it was so fascinating 578 00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:53,160 Speaker 2: because you saw something that we had never seen before, 579 00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:57,440 Speaker 2: and it showed that in someone who was depressed, that 580 00:30:57,520 --> 00:31:01,360 Speaker 2: their frontal lobes of their brain, the judgment areas of 581 00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:06,080 Speaker 2: your brain were completely fired up, okay, and your amygdala, 582 00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:08,800 Speaker 2: which is your emotional center of the brain, was really 583 00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:11,640 Speaker 2: kind of cold, less functional, which meant you were kind 584 00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:14,959 Speaker 2: of like in a cocoon, and and nothing came out 585 00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:17,480 Speaker 2: because the frontal low was basically saying that's dumb, don't 586 00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:21,240 Speaker 2: do that overly judging everything that you did. And what 587 00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:24,440 Speaker 2: was interesting is and people who then were treated, you 588 00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:28,960 Speaker 2: did see functionally within the brain, a change less activity 589 00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:31,080 Speaker 2: in those areas and more I mean. And it was 590 00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:33,920 Speaker 2: so interesting because we had there's no biomarker for depression, 591 00:31:34,080 --> 00:31:36,560 Speaker 2: there's no blood test or anything. That was the first 592 00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:40,160 Speaker 2: time we objectively could see what depression looked like in 593 00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:44,440 Speaker 2: the brain and see objective evidence of it actually being treated, 594 00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:45,880 Speaker 2: which was fascinating to me. 595 00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:54,480 Speaker 1: That was doctor Sanjay Gupta. Go check out his podcast 596 00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:58,920 Speaker 1: Chasing Life on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 597 00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:01,720 Speaker 1: you get your shows. That's it for us today. Talk 598 00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:08,000 Speaker 1: to you next week now. What with Burke Shields is 599 00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:12,200 Speaker 1: a production of iHeartRadio. Our lead producer and wonderful showrunner 600 00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:16,560 Speaker 1: is Julia Weaver. Additional research and editing by Darby Masters 601 00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:21,960 Speaker 1: and Abu Zafar. Our executive producer is Christina Everett. The 602 00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:24,080 Speaker 1: show is mixed by Vahid Fraser.