Speaker 1: Hello, this is Craig Ferguson letting you know that I
Speaker 1: am bringing the Fancy Rascal Tour to the Majestic Southwest
Speaker 1: this weekend October seventh at the Wild Horse Pass Hotel
Speaker 1: and Casino and Chandler Arizona.
Speaker 2: Which is in the Phoenix area.
Speaker 1: October the eighth at the Fox Tucson Theater and Tucson, Arizona.
Speaker 2: Which is in the Tucson area.
Speaker 1: For tickets, go to my website, the Craig Ferguson Show
Speaker 1: dot com slash sure. My name is Craig Ferguson. The
Speaker 1: name of this podcast is Joy. I talk to interest
Speaker 1: in people about what brings them happiness. Meet David Itzkoff,
Speaker 1: former culture reporter for The New York Times and now
Speaker 1: just culture writer for anybody, including the New York Times.
Speaker 2: It's very clever about the culture.
Speaker 1: I feel like if we'd have got a second season
Speaker 1: The Joiner Die, I've been worth watching.
Speaker 2: But we were talking.
Speaker 1: About how fourmats can lead you astray. Yes, and I
Speaker 1: did a show call Join or Die after I finished
Speaker 1: in the Late Night, which was which you were openly laughing
Speaker 1: at just seconds ago.
Speaker 3: I'm laughing at everything you do sometimes for the right reasons,
Speaker 3: sometimes for.
Speaker 2: The wrong reasons. How are you, pal, I'm good.
Speaker 3: I'm really flattered that you invited me to your little
Speaker 3: chess competition.
Speaker 1: My booth, yes, yeah, this is a booth what we do.
Speaker 1: But it's a podcast booth. Yes, I take it with
Speaker 1: me around the country, my little booth.
Speaker 2: I set it up. Nine of you. Not always luminaries
Speaker 2: like the Culture. Are you the editor? Yeah, the New
Speaker 2: York Times.
Speaker 4: You know, it's an interesting thing.
Speaker 3: I am departed in the fall so that I could
Speaker 3: focus on a book project.
Speaker 4: I still write for them. I still write for other publications.
Speaker 2: You're not actually on the payroll anymore.
Speaker 3: No, No, it was a big step and been almost
Speaker 3: a year now.
Speaker 2: You're a Republican. No, that is that what it is.
Speaker 2: It's like I no longer write for The New York
Speaker 2: Times and.
Speaker 4: I can let my freak flags.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but that's interesting because I think of you as
Speaker 1: a New York Times guy.
Speaker 4: Thank you.
Speaker 2: I appreciate that.
Speaker 3: I think it's it's something that will always be in
Speaker 3: my blood. The tattoo is not coming off, for whatever
Speaker 3: reason you have I have I do have a tattoo.
Speaker 4: You know why. You're gonna remember when I explained this
Speaker 4: to you.
Speaker 3: One of my tattoos is of sid Vicious, because you
Speaker 3: were kind enough to introduce me to Steve Jones on
Speaker 3: like the best day of my life.
Speaker 1: You know, I have to say, I've known Johnsy for
Speaker 1: a long time, and if meeting Joones is the best
Speaker 1: day of your life, we really have to help you because.
Speaker 2: He's like, do you know what? Do you know why?
Speaker 1: The last time I saw Yeah, we were talking about
Speaker 1: the movie Bohemian Rhapsody, and he said to me, oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: so so Bohemian Raps.
Speaker 2: Apparently Freddie Murky was really nice. Blog. I had no idea.
Speaker 1: I must have went by me that it.
Speaker 3: Oh man, if I could have heard him say that live,
Speaker 3: I think I would have just I would have just
Speaker 3: fallen on the floor.
Speaker 2: It's very funny.
Speaker 1: Have you do you still listen to Jones's Yes, yeah,
Speaker 1: he's great.
Speaker 4: I love him.
Speaker 3: I just it's wild to me that like that's almost
Speaker 3: more of his identity now than like being I mean, yes,
Speaker 3: he'll always have his role in punk rock, but Especials.
Speaker 1: Is a pretty decent band, and to create the guitar
Speaker 1: sound that he did, he really did.
Speaker 3: But he's like an elder statesman too, and he's got
Speaker 3: all this uh, you know, institutional knowledge and he dispenses
Speaker 3: it to the next generation. That's such a fun like
Speaker 3: that's clearly not what he imagined himself doing.
Speaker 1: It's weird he got when I did started doing the
Speaker 1: Puppets on Late Night. It was from Jow and Esy
Speaker 1: because I was listening. I was driving to work one
Speaker 1: day at school. Tribes of exhibt like, fucking CBS, get.
Speaker 4: In there, mister Ferguson and do your podcast.
Speaker 2: Oh no, what's the podcast? Then? What was it? Yeah,
Speaker 2: to talk to those celebrities.
Speaker 4: It was like a podcast with pictures.
Speaker 1: It kind of was badly lit podcast, but the I
Speaker 1: was on the way driving it work one day and
Speaker 1: I was listening to Jones's Jukebox, which is Steve Jones's
Speaker 1: radio show in LA and he played Frank Ifield singing
Speaker 1: she taught me to Yodel, which is a song from
Speaker 1: the nineteen I guess nineteen fifties that she taught me
Speaker 1: to yodel, And I thought, my god, that is so
Speaker 1: messed up. Yeah, I'm going to put that on the
Speaker 1: show tonight. And I did. I put it on the
Speaker 1: show that night and I lett sync to it with
Speaker 1: a puppet and anyway, that was about me. So listen,
Speaker 1: what's the book project that you quit your definitely DC job.
Speaker 4: I knew this was going to happen.
Speaker 3: I'm kind of keeping it under wraps and it'll be
Speaker 3: out in the world about a year from now, and
Speaker 3: at that time.
Speaker 2: You don't want to talk about it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm just you know, for various reasons. I'm also
Speaker 3: a little superstitious, and you know, it's it's suffice to
Speaker 3: say it was a very cool opportunity and like, I
Speaker 3: just couldn't pass it up.
Speaker 1: All right, Hold on a second, here's the clue that
Speaker 1: came in that you're a little superstitious. Yeah, is it
Speaker 1: superstitious or OCD? No, I don't think it's OCD.
Speaker 4: But if you want to call it anxiety.
Speaker 2: Anxiety, Yeah, why are you anxious? You?
Speaker 1: I mean you wrote I mean the first book that
Speaker 1: I think was the first book you wrote, Cocaine's Son.
Speaker 4: That was one of the first. Yeah, that was. But yes,
Speaker 4: you were the first one I read.
Speaker 3: Yes, thank you, right, Yeah, you're kind to support me
Speaker 3: in that era.
Speaker 1: Well, listen, if you were writing a book about being
Speaker 1: raised by a cocaine addicted father. I felt like, given
Speaker 1: the way that I had lived read about the same time,
Speaker 1: I felt it was only how are things going in
Speaker 1: that department?
Speaker 2: Now?
Speaker 4: Well, you know, I mean, my dad passed away in
Speaker 4: twenty nineteen, but I have a.
Speaker 2: Very sad to hear that.
Speaker 3: That's okay, I appreciate that. But he you know, my
Speaker 3: son is eight and a half. And it's interesting because
Speaker 3: you know, I mean, of course, like I have copies
Speaker 3: of the book, you know, not like prominently displayed in
Speaker 3: the household, but on like the family. You know, I
Speaker 3: have like a bookshelf in my own room with some
Speaker 3: of my books on it. And he, you know, for
Speaker 3: many years, you know, he my son would walk past
Speaker 3: the bookshelf and he would just know that those were
Speaker 3: books of mine and had no curiosity about them. And
Speaker 3: now little by little he can, like he can read
Speaker 3: the titles on the spines, but he keeps passing that
Speaker 3: and he thinks that the title is Canine's Son.
Speaker 4: And I don't.
Speaker 2: Good idea for kids, but good idea.
Speaker 3: Here comes the franchise, the heartwarming story Raised by a Dog.
Speaker 1: He became the culture reporter on the New York Times, so.
Speaker 3: He doesn't know, you know what, and first of all,
Speaker 3: he doesn't know what it really says, and he doesn't
Speaker 3: know why. Yeah, I'm not saying that he should in
Speaker 3: any way follow the trajectory that I did. But I
Speaker 3: learned about my dad's addiction when I was ten, I
Speaker 3: want to say, like, that's when it was made explicit
Speaker 3: to me, and of course I had many other clues
Speaker 3: before that.
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, but your your son's having a very different experience.
Speaker 4: I sure hope. So yeah, yeah, I mean, I mean,
Speaker 4: you know, yes it.
Speaker 3: One side effect or impact of having the upbringing that
Speaker 3: I did is that I want to be dedicated to
Speaker 3: him in every way possible, and it wounds me terribly
Speaker 3: if I ever feel like I miss any kind of
Speaker 3: you know, transitional moment in his life, or just even
Speaker 3: a day that he wants me to come to school
Speaker 3: to see something and oh I already had a commitment
Speaker 3: that day, and I can't make it like it's awful
Speaker 3: in the heart.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I feel exactly the same.
Speaker 1: My kids are getting older enough, so it's they're a
Speaker 1: bit more kind of like, yeah, all right, it's okay.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm on a date. I really don't need you
Speaker 2: to be here. You don't need to be two roars
Speaker 2: back at the theater.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right, but it is It's kind of is
Speaker 1: an odd thing because are you a helicoptery parent?
Speaker 2: Do you think? No?
Speaker 3: I mean, I will let him give me the assessment
Speaker 3: at some point, but I feel like I'm probably way
Speaker 3: like I'm probably more neurotic about it and more like
Speaker 3: tunnel focused on it than I need to be. I
Speaker 3: think about how, even in the right ways that I
Speaker 3: was raised growing up. You know, my parents gave me
Speaker 3: a lot of latitude, and like, you know, I was
Speaker 3: already writing public transportation in New York City probably by
Speaker 3: the age of ten.
Speaker 2: Yes see, that's not great though.
Speaker 3: I don't know that, you know. I mean, I can't
Speaker 3: say good or ill. But that was how kids of
Speaker 3: my generation. I mean, we were all latchkey kids. That
Speaker 3: part was terrible, right. I don't think that that really
Speaker 3: had any positive impact on us. But the amount of
Speaker 3: just you know, trust and independence that we were offered
Speaker 3: that I find like I can't even fathom it.
Speaker 4: I can't think about myself.
Speaker 3: I'm trying to think of how old he's going to
Speaker 3: be when he's allowed to cross the street by himself
Speaker 3: could be age fifteen at this rate.
Speaker 2: I for my oldest boy.
Speaker 1: I let him get on an airplane to cross the
Speaker 1: Atlantic to see his grandpa when he was fifteen, wow,
Speaker 1: and I took him all the way. It was in glass.
Speaker 1: We were in Scotland and I went to the airport
Speaker 1: and the lady said, you're not allowed to come behind
Speaker 1: the barrier while I asked him the security questions. I said,
Speaker 1: he's fifteen. She said, yes, but you can't. You can't
Speaker 1: come behind the barrier. So there was a barrier between
Speaker 1: me and him, like it's just like a piece of rope.
Speaker 2: So I stood right next to him and there was
Speaker 2: a rope.
Speaker 1: She was asking him questions and she kept looking me, saying,
Speaker 1: you have to maintain a distance. I'm I'm not letting
Speaker 1: you take my kid away. And it was igo ugly.
Speaker 3: They saw you like signaling with semaphore flag because they said,
Speaker 3: none of that.
Speaker 2: We're thinking because he's fifteen, I'm embarrassing him. You know,
Speaker 2: he's like dad. For God's sake.
Speaker 3: Well did they think that you're going I give him
Speaker 3: hints on the questions or something?
Speaker 5: I know?
Speaker 1: So they're saying, you know, did anyone pack your bags
Speaker 1: for you and go, yeah, my mom, it's crazy anyway.
Speaker 2: So here's the thing.
Speaker 1: You're raising your boy now, but it's making you think
Speaker 1: about your own childhood deliver because that's what happened to
Speaker 1: me when I when my.
Speaker 2: Boys were young. I was like, oh God. And it
Speaker 2: goes back and you think back.
Speaker 1: Does it help you in your perspective about your father's
Speaker 1: problems back then? Do you do you find yourself more
Speaker 1: or less forgiving? Do you have you have you changed
Speaker 1: your perspective since the writing of the book.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I probably not for the better, I
Speaker 3: would have to say. You know, it's a tough thing
Speaker 3: to reckon with, but I think I'm probably less forgiving
Speaker 3: when I find myself doing just commonplace everyday dad type things.
Speaker 3: I get it literally get up in the morning and
Speaker 3: make pancakes for my son. Right, I try to think
Speaker 3: about would my dad have ever done this for me?
Speaker 2: Maybe it has still been awake, but no, if.
Speaker 4: He was in the apartment at all.
Speaker 3: So yeah, I mean it's it's I know it's not
Speaker 3: healthy and it's not great. The pancakes are healthy and great, but.
Speaker 1: But there is a kind of nostalgia because you're a
Speaker 1: culture guy, right, and your you report and comment and
Speaker 1: investigate artistic journeys that we make as a society.
Speaker 3: Thank you, assessing men, I'm assessing you that very very lofty,
Speaker 3: but thank you.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: Well, you know it's I give you a little more
Speaker 1: greens because you used to work for the.
Speaker 2: New York Times.
Speaker 4: I can I get that for like maybe one more
Speaker 4: year and the glow is gone. I get it.
Speaker 1: But but the thing is, there's a lot of nostalgia
Speaker 1: now for that time, that kind of stranger things type,
Speaker 1: you know, nostalgia for that period when you were little,
Speaker 1: and I'm like.
Speaker 2: It wasn't so great.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, it's interesting.
Speaker 3: I mean, I'm trying to remember the James Gray movie
Speaker 3: that came out last year, Armageddon Time, which was set
Speaker 3: in New York, like right at the turn of nineteen
Speaker 3: eighty and the kid, you know, growing up in one
Speaker 3: of the outer boroughs.
Speaker 4: I think I'm pretty sure it was Brooklyn, and you know.
Speaker 3: Has a fairly like placid family life, like no you know,
Speaker 3: no drug abuse, no conflict of like that degree. But
Speaker 3: also I thought was very good at illustrating like just
Speaker 3: the sort of the vibe of being an eighties kid
Speaker 3: in New York and the challenges that probably anybody would
Speaker 3: have faced growing up in the way that it would
Speaker 3: have impacted. Yeah, I mean I I found myself kind
Speaker 3: of yearning for that also of how like, yeah, I
Speaker 3: mean you see the family conflict and the struggles that
Speaker 3: the kid goes through, and I was like, damn, I
Speaker 3: wish I was back there right now, right well as
Speaker 3: messy as it was.
Speaker 1: Wow, I get that. But I see, this is my theory.
Speaker 1: But I have a theory belt low thing. This is
Speaker 1: my theory. But when people get nostalgic for that kind
Speaker 1: of thing, you're not really nostalgic for the time. You're
Speaker 1: just nostalgic for being young, when your body worked differently,
Speaker 1: when you know, when it was all in front of you. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and things were a little different because you know, when
Speaker 1: I look back on I don't get nostalgic for Glasgow
Speaker 1: in the nineteen seventies, say, I don't think anyone would
Speaker 1: get nostalgic for that. But I in a way, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: because you go, well, and when you hear particularly old comedians,
Speaker 1: right as I what back in the day, you know
Speaker 1: way used to what you know, it was terrible, it
Speaker 1: was terrible.
Speaker 2: Back in the day.
Speaker 3: It's you know, and it's so interesting because like, sure,
Speaker 3: if I could like wave a wand or hop in
Speaker 3: a time machine and see the Glasgow of your like youth.
Speaker 4: Of course I would like.
Speaker 3: I'm all I can imagine is like the grittiness and
Speaker 3: the coolness. And I'm sure it wasn't any of those
Speaker 3: things that I know.
Speaker 1: There was grittiness, and there was the coolness was so
Speaker 1: it wasn't cool. I mean, but I lived in the
Speaker 1: Lower east Side of Manhattan nineteen eighty four, right now.
Speaker 3: Maybe we crossed paths. Well let's see you boy aged
Speaker 3: were you then? Well I would have been eight, yeah, and.
Speaker 1: I would have been twenty, so that would have been
Speaker 1: bad time. I feel like though I didn't see anyone
Speaker 1: eight years old and the lower you know, I lived
Speaker 1: just next to Tompkins Square Park, and I don't think
Speaker 1: there were any children. There shouldn't have been any children
Speaker 1: within about a mile.
Speaker 4: Of that park.
Speaker 1: Then you see that park now and it's very you know,
Speaker 1: it's mom and pop and young families.
Speaker 2: And young rich families.
Speaker 1: Yes, and I think this is a weird thing because
Speaker 1: it wasn't so hot then. But I kind of feel
Speaker 1: it's missing something a little bit because of all that
Speaker 1: danger is going away, and it's not really, it's not
Speaker 1: missing anything, but I feel like it's just because I'm older.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it's interesting because my wife and I before
Speaker 3: we got married, we were living in that neighborhood, but
Speaker 3: like early two thousands, we were living on like eleventh
Speaker 3: in A and fourteenth in A. And you're right, I
Speaker 3: mean that all of that the park was, you know,
Speaker 3: as as tranquil and safe as could be.
Speaker 4: But like we remember when like.
Speaker 3: The first seven eleven moved into the neighborhood or like
Speaker 3: on our corner, when like they started building like a
Speaker 3: Target department store, and that, like to us, that was
Speaker 3: like the end of.
Speaker 2: The end of the neighborhood. Yes, that's funny.
Speaker 3: Now when they got rid of like the drugs and
Speaker 3: the crime, but like when the you know, the the
Speaker 3: brand names.
Speaker 2: I remember the corner of eleventh in A.
Speaker 1: I bought cocaine off a guy who in the corner
Speaker 1: there once. It's the only time I ever actually bought
Speaker 1: cocaine on the street, because most of the time you'd
Speaker 1: buy it from someone like, hey, does this guy stuff
Speaker 1: like that? And I bought cocaine on the corner. It's
Speaker 1: the only time I bought a drug and it absolutely
Speaker 1: didn't work right. It was Saul or something. I was like,
Speaker 1: oh my god, this is outrageous, and I was so
Speaker 1: I was so annoyed, and and I went back to
Speaker 1: complain to him, but he wasn't there, which.
Speaker 2: I'm very very happy about now that he wasn't there.
Speaker 4: So you asked for his manager.
Speaker 1: I was like, I want to see your supervisor because
Speaker 1: it's awful.
Speaker 2: This cocaine is so far.
Speaker 3: Well on behalf of the industry. Let me please take
Speaker 3: this up opportunity to apologize.
Speaker 1: Well, that's fine, you're not in the cocaine distribution industry. Yeah, no, no,
Speaker 1: Hello everybody, this is Craig Ferguson letting you know that
Speaker 1: my Fancy Rascal Tour continues throughout the fall of twenty
Speaker 1: twenty three. For a full list of dates and tickets,
Speaker 1: please go to my website, the Craig Ferguson Show dot
Speaker 1: com slash Tour. So listen the culture and I'm sure
Speaker 1: you asked this a lot, but culture is changing, is
Speaker 1: evolving very rapidly.
Speaker 4: It certainly is.
Speaker 2: And do you find yourself.
Speaker 1: Being wary when even reporting on things, because you know,
Speaker 1: it's I speak with some experience, it is quite easy
Speaker 1: to trip over your feet and get into trouble right now.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, well, I mean I think in a very
Speaker 3: sort of weird way, I feel like almost a kind
Speaker 3: of relief that I'm not reporting, let's say, on this
Speaker 3: sort of the day to day of you know, like
Speaker 3: the sag Aftra and writers strike or even really you know,
Speaker 3: I mean, just this is this is by no means
Speaker 3: the sort of most important aspect of it. But it
Speaker 3: has had a trickle down effect even on the coverage
Speaker 3: of culture that somebody who was in my position a
Speaker 3: year ago, I wouldn't. You can't get access to the
Speaker 3: people that you need to tell your stories. You can't
Speaker 3: write a kind of you can't write a general celebrity
Speaker 3: profile really because the vast majority of them are on strike,
Speaker 3: right so, you know, but just I think the way
Speaker 3: that the strike itself is written about, and you know,
Speaker 3: I think there's rightfully so so much you know, I
Speaker 3: think sympathy and understanding of what it is that the
Speaker 3: actors and the writers are on strike for. You know,
Speaker 3: I think about if I were writing a New York
Speaker 3: Times story of course, you have to include all voices
Speaker 3: you would have if you.
Speaker 2: Talk to see there's your problem.
Speaker 4: Yeah, you start to get if you.
Speaker 1: Include all voices in any piece at all.
Speaker 2: Now that I feel.
Speaker 1: Is a shift in cultural reporting, because it is dangerous
Speaker 1: to include a contrary or opposing position. Particularly Oh look,
Speaker 1: I don't want to single out the New York Times. No,
Speaker 1: it's no worse or better than anyone else, but it
Speaker 1: seems to take an editorial position that would imply no,
Speaker 1: I don't know if this is said. I know nothing
Speaker 1: about the inner workings of the time, so I don't
Speaker 1: know if anybody ever says.
Speaker 2: We don't want to give those guys a platform.
Speaker 1: Screw those guys, right, But it is a newspaper and
Speaker 1: you are kind of meant to, aren't you as a journalist.
Speaker 3: Well that's the push and pull of it all the time,
Speaker 3: I think, And that, yes, I mean, if you just
Speaker 3: you know, is the goal to just present voices and
Speaker 3: let an audience kind of choose what it wants to believe?
Speaker 3: Or you know, does a reporter or a writer bring
Speaker 3: some amount of expertise and knowledgeability about a subject?
Speaker 4: And that yeah, I mean you.
Speaker 3: Can you know, do you have to quote from somebody
Speaker 3: regardless of the or if you know that they're just
Speaker 3: blowing smoke or that they're just you know, they're just
Speaker 3: giving you a can statement with nothing supporting it.
Speaker 1: Well, that's a thing that with culture you're going to
Speaker 1: run into a law because especially if you're covering some
Speaker 1: movie or you know, or a piece of music, you're
Speaker 1: dealing with publicists, yes, right, and you're dealing with people
Speaker 1: who their job is to protect the asset. That's that's
Speaker 1: their job, just protect the asset. And so you're not
Speaker 1: going to get any unfiltered opinion and let you get
Speaker 1: access to the asset in real time, and the asset
Speaker 1: is a lot of them now are savvy enough to
Speaker 1: it's really about marketing.
Speaker 3: Well, I think people are hyper aware of you know,
Speaker 3: if you are an individual, if you're a personality, and
Speaker 3: you know what this is like, I mean, how much
Speaker 3: is sort of on your shoulders at any given moment,
Speaker 3: and just the reality of being a public figure and
Speaker 3: what it means to be in an interview situation, even
Speaker 3: if it's not you know, you don't enter into it confrontationally.
Speaker 1: But I think I think it doesn't have to be
Speaker 1: all you have to do is is just leave a
Speaker 1: sentence lying around that can be turned into a clickbait
Speaker 1: and it becomes dangerous for you. And that's why I
Speaker 1: think publicists are very nervous about interviews. Now.
Speaker 2: If you say, like a big movie.
Speaker 1: Star is going for like remember that terrible trouble Liam
Speaker 1: Neeson get into a few because he said something really
Speaker 1: off color, and.
Speaker 2: I remember them sort of.
Speaker 3: I mean he came back onto that, onto the TV
Speaker 3: show Atlanta and kind of made fun of himself for it,
Speaker 3: and that seemed to help clear the air. But that
Speaker 3: took that was the process of like two or three
Speaker 3: years before.
Speaker 1: I mean, and he he got a lot of trouble, Yeah,
Speaker 1: for speaking in an unguarded way.
Speaker 2: I mean, look what you said wasn't good, No, but I.
Speaker 4: Mean he was trying to speak.
Speaker 3: I'm not even defending the content, but yeah, he was
Speaker 3: trying to sort of say something that seemed honest to
Speaker 3: him in the moment.
Speaker 4: And and yes, of course, yes he was you know,
Speaker 4: knocked down for that.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: God, it was like like seagulls on a fish sucker. Like,
Speaker 1: So if you were doing it now, yeah, and say
Speaker 1: you were in viewing, like would.
Speaker 4: You want me to tell you a true story.
Speaker 3: Sure, yeah, I mean, I just hope it's not too
Speaker 3: sensitive because it involves, you know, your successor at CBS.
Speaker 3: I mean, one of the last piece is that I
Speaker 3: wrote for The Times as a full time reporter. It
Speaker 3: was about James Cordon in the midst of you know,
Speaker 3: everything that had happened to this back and forth that
Speaker 3: he was having with the owner of Balthazar, and he
Speaker 3: and I already had an interview that was scheduled about
Speaker 3: a week later. He was going to be in New
Speaker 3: York and he had this you know, really terrific TV
Speaker 3: mini series that he was starring in, and that was
Speaker 3: what we were ostensibly there to speak about. And to
Speaker 3: his credit, he didn't cancel the interview.
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, I mean, way I'm telling about Dave. I'm
Speaker 2: not telling to you man.
Speaker 3: Look, that is a legitimate, you know way that he
Speaker 3: could have approached it, or they could have just looked
Speaker 3: it's it's too hectic a time, or any make up
Speaker 3: some excuses. Covid covid exactly exactly now, I thought. To
Speaker 3: his credit, he came to the interview and we're having
Speaker 3: like a late breakfast at the hotel that he's staying
Speaker 3: at how.
Speaker 2: Was he with the way or was he.
Speaker 3: Of course this is you know, the table right next
Speaker 3: to us, Like we're two minutes into our conversation and
Speaker 3: we hear the people next to us, one of the
Speaker 3: diners chastising their waiter, and he, you know, he makes
Speaker 3: a little face about it, you know, gives me a
Speaker 3: little you know, and he makes a comment, funny comment
Speaker 3: on it. But as our conversation progresses, and I make
Speaker 3: a couple of sort of attempts to just engage him
Speaker 3: on the subject and what has happened, and first he
Speaker 3: sort of acts like he doesn't.
Speaker 4: Know what's going on or what could you be talking about?
Speaker 3: I mean, I still stupid me, like I still think
Speaker 3: he's being sarcastic or playful, like it's just it's a bit.
Speaker 3: But as we got further and further, it was clear
Speaker 3: he was very to my mind, very angry, still definitely
Speaker 3: mad at me for even asking about it, right, and
Speaker 3: as if it wouldn't you know, there was there was
Speaker 3: no listen, there was certainly no sort of pre arranged
Speaker 3: agreement of what we would or would not talk about.
Speaker 3: And these publicists had said to me that morning, the
Speaker 3: interview can still happen. But you can't ask him about this.
Speaker 3: I would have said, no, we obviously can't do it
Speaker 3: under those terms, right, So it was very surprising to
Speaker 3: me that just think again in my naivete and stupidity,
Speaker 3: that it would play out that way.
Speaker 2: Well, well, I did it play out, did you? I mean,
Speaker 2: did he get really mad at you? Yeah?
Speaker 3: I mean it was very you know, not not you know,
Speaker 3: just I've had very good, comfortable experiences with him in
Speaker 3: the past.
Speaker 4: I know when things are tense, and it was very tense.
Speaker 3: And I still said to him at the end, you know,
Speaker 3: I know this wasn't necessarily pleasant for you, but I
Speaker 3: thank you for you know, coming, and you know again,
Speaker 3: it's just like another another sort of fuselid was unleashed
Speaker 3: at me before before it ended. And you know, at minimum,
Speaker 3: if you were I assume, if you if you're a
Speaker 3: public figure, a quote unquote celebrity, you have to be
Speaker 3: aware that the words you're saying right now to a
Speaker 3: reporting person with a digital tape recorder in front of you,
Speaker 3: that those are going to go into the newspaper as
Speaker 3: you said them.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: It's an interesting thing though, because you get someone who's
Speaker 1: like I know what it's like to end one of
Speaker 1: those shows. Look, I don't know what happened that day
Speaker 1: in the restaurant, and I don't know what happened in
Speaker 1: the in the conversation with you and James, but I
Speaker 1: do know, so.
Speaker 2: I just dropped my water.
Speaker 4: Of course, how convenient.
Speaker 2: That's all right.
Speaker 1: It's only gone into that electrical thing. So it's fine,
Speaker 1: ignore those spars.
Speaker 2: It's fine with.
Speaker 4: The first podcast by Candle Light.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's that fire is nothing to it's not it's
Speaker 1: just a it's decorative.
Speaker 2: So but I know what it's like.
Speaker 1: For when I finished in late Night and I wanted
Speaker 1: to go, I was, I think, looking back on it now,
Speaker 1: making very bad decisions over and over and over again.
Speaker 1: We started our conversation, they talking about a show called
Speaker 1: Join or Die, which I did.
Speaker 2: I should not have made that show, but I was like,
Speaker 2: I don't know what to.
Speaker 1: Do, and I felt like I should make that show
Speaker 1: and it was it wasn't a good show, and I
Speaker 1: shouldn't have done it.
Speaker 4: You want it, but you felt like you just want
Speaker 4: you wanted to have something to go on.
Speaker 2: And also I had a whole team of people.
Speaker 1: Because I had a team then yeah, and nobody tells
Speaker 1: you you're going to end.
Speaker 2: Up with a team. You end up with a team,
Speaker 2: and you're like, I don't want a team, but.
Speaker 1: You've got a team, and they say, no, you gotta
Speaker 1: do this now, Craig, this is the thing you gotta do.
Speaker 1: So my guess is that James Corden said, I don't
Speaker 1: really want to talk to the New York Times, and
Speaker 1: his team said, you can't cancel on the New York Times.
Speaker 1: And then he said, well, tell him I don't want
Speaker 1: to talk about that, and they probably said to him,
Speaker 1: we told him.
Speaker 4: That could very well be. I think that that is, you.
Speaker 3: Know, I mean, because I've had experiences sort of the
Speaker 3: inverse of it where a publicists will say, you know,
Speaker 3: don't ask about blah blah blah. If you bring it up,
Speaker 3: you know they're going to hang up on you. They're
Speaker 3: going to walk away whatever it is. And then you
Speaker 3: go and you have the conversation and you talk about
Speaker 3: it and it's totally fine.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Another true story. I mean, this is going back some
Speaker 3: but the very first time that I interviewed Paul Rubins,
Speaker 3: God bless him, and this was in like two thousand
Speaker 3: and four and you know, it was.
Speaker 2: For like the obvious. Did they say, you don't bring
Speaker 2: it up?
Speaker 4: Of course? Like of course?
Speaker 3: And and I was, you know, I was very young
Speaker 3: and a little cowed, and I was like, well, I
Speaker 3: got to get this interview, however it is, and I
Speaker 3: just kind of bit the bullet. And you know, I'm
Speaker 3: sure everybody who's ever met him you probably met.
Speaker 1: Him, which I'm very annoyed about.
Speaker 4: I'm sorry. I mean, he's the just the gentlest, like
Speaker 4: kindest guy.
Speaker 1: Ohso I ripped off his show quite a love for
Speaker 1: my own show, you know, late Night.
Speaker 4: I assume he forgave you.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I hope. So, I don't know. I never had
Speaker 2: the chance to apologize to him.
Speaker 3: I don't know that he bore with a couple of exceptions,
Speaker 3: I don't think he bore ill will to anybody. And
Speaker 3: you know, just the most soft spoken guy and like
Speaker 3: within I don't know, five ten minutes of our conversation,
Speaker 3: he started talking about the arrest and in a very
Speaker 3: organic way, and talking about how he knew just the
Speaker 3: effect that his the mugshot had on the public, that
Speaker 3: he looked so different and his hair was down to
Speaker 3: his shoulders and it wasn't the way people were used
Speaker 3: to seeing him, and you know that opened the door
Speaker 3: and we wouldn't say that, we like dwelled on it.
Speaker 3: But of course, if you're writing about Paul Rubins, you
Speaker 3: know you talk about that.
Speaker 1: Part of the story because he was the first canceled celebrity.
Speaker 2: I can think in a way.
Speaker 3: I mean, I think, look, I mean, if you want
Speaker 3: to go back to cow get out of my head.
Speaker 1: Well, is an interesting thing because that's a I mean,
Speaker 1: he was proved innocent.
Speaker 3: That's I mean, it's I can't even fathom, you know,
Speaker 3: in an era when all you have is like print,
Speaker 3: media and and radio, and you know how how information
Speaker 3: got circulated, how you in a case where you're innocent,
Speaker 3: how you clear your name?
Speaker 4: But you know, it's mind boggling.
Speaker 2: I think even No.
Speaker 1: I mean, people like to say there's no smoke without fire,
Speaker 1: which anyone who's worked in show business for two minutes
Speaker 1: can tell you it's mostly smoke and no fucking fire. Ever,
Speaker 1: so no smoke without virus bullshit. But the idea that
Speaker 1: he was, you know, that morality that nineteen twenties, you know,
Speaker 1: expecting morality from movie star.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I think that's quite current right now.
Speaker 1: But people want there, I mean, they were, like, people
Speaker 1: are getting mad at Picasso for being horrible misogynist. It's
Speaker 1: not a fucking secret that Picasso was a horrible missile.
Speaker 2: Look at the fucking paintings, Jesus. I mean, it's not
Speaker 2: it's not.
Speaker 1: This is not new, But suddenly it's The outrage seems
Speaker 1: sometimes a little disingenuous to me.
Speaker 2: It's a little.
Speaker 4: It's hard for me, you know.
Speaker 3: I mean, there are times where I can say, yeah,
Speaker 3: I mean, I'm not talking about Picasso, but there are
Speaker 3: you know, there are people who just seem to be
Speaker 3: just sort of perpetually feeding the outrage machine.
Speaker 4: And I understand why kind of.
Speaker 3: I mean, like, I don't know how many months will
Speaker 3: have a laps by the time this conversation is shared
Speaker 3: with the public.
Speaker 4: But like Woody Allen coming to the defense.
Speaker 5: Of this how much how much would you hate it
Speaker 5: if you were if you were under fire for being
Speaker 5: a and Woody Allen says, it's terrible.
Speaker 2: Live about this guy's side. Guy, shut up a stop
Speaker 2: fucking backing me off.
Speaker 3: Now We've got some good news for you. An Oscar
Speaker 3: winning director has come to your defense.
Speaker 1: Oh geez, but it's it is a kind of odd thing.
Speaker 1: I think that obviously it is to do with getting
Speaker 1: clicks and getting people to click on, you know stories.
Speaker 1: One of the kind of pivotal moments from me during
Speaker 1: the current situation was I was on one of the sites.
Speaker 2: It was BuzzFeed or I don't know, ectoplasm.
Speaker 1: Whatever it was, whatever the site was, and I don't
Speaker 1: know if at plus necessiety, Yeah, and I saw the
Speaker 1: headline was ten things that really irritate.
Speaker 2: Why would I Why would.
Speaker 1: I fucking click on it?
Speaker 4: There's nothing made, there's no obligation.
Speaker 3: It's it's literally telling you, Craig Ferguson, do not click
Speaker 3: on this button?
Speaker 2: Press, and then of course you press yes.
Speaker 1: Do you find yourself now though, because you can see
Speaker 1: how the sausage is made, and you've known how it's
Speaker 1: made for a long time, do you look at it
Speaker 1: with a different eye when you hear a story about well,
Speaker 1: let's look at James Cordon's thing. When when you heard
Speaker 1: that story about how we like that's not a thing,
Speaker 1: or I wonder or I've heard stories or what?
Speaker 4: Yeah, I did wonder? Of course you wonder, right?
Speaker 3: I mean, is it is it because at the time,
Speaker 3: I mean, certainly this other fellow, Keith McNally, you know.
Speaker 2: Who is the restaurant.
Speaker 3: Yes, now, I'm sure the information he was getting from
Speaker 3: his staff was was real and sincere on their part,
Speaker 3: but you know, he also has this identity as a
Speaker 3: kind of online provocateur and saying things you know, on
Speaker 3: his account to kind of you know, rile people up
Speaker 3: or get under their skin a little bit. So yeah,
Speaker 3: of course, you're just you know, you have to have
Speaker 3: I think, just a borderline baseline curiosity of like, okay,
Speaker 3: what's really going on here?
Speaker 2: But what happens to curiosity in a post truth? Yeah? Environment?
Speaker 2: I mean, that's that's what we're looking at.
Speaker 3: Sure, And in fairness, I mean, it's not as if
Speaker 3: I got Courton to actually answer, you know, any of
Speaker 3: my questions, that he really addressed it. And whatever conclusion
Speaker 3: people came to in that moment, you know, had more
Speaker 3: to do with his attitude towards me. And I'm not
Speaker 3: a publicist and I'm not his handler. But all all
Speaker 3: he had, I mean, there were so many other ways
Speaker 3: that he could have approached it, you know, without still
Speaker 3: without sort of answering my question or giving me any
Speaker 3: you know, content or fuel for the fire.
Speaker 1: Well, that's I mean, that's what I think when I
Speaker 1: watched the interview with Prince Andrew. Did you ever see that,
Speaker 1: like Prince Andrew, what what a segue?
Speaker 4: What transition?
Speaker 1: Kind of the same thing in the sense where you
Speaker 1: go didn't anyone say to him, you know, you might
Speaker 1: want to shut up here.
Speaker 2: You're in the wrong.
Speaker 1: You clearly did something wrong. Shut the fuck up and
Speaker 1: make a deal if that's what's on the table. But
Speaker 1: to go on and think that you can hoodwink people,
Speaker 1: even if you could hoodwink people, it's probably best to shut.
Speaker 4: Up, isn't.
Speaker 3: But isn't this This is there's just something fundamental I
Speaker 3: guess about about human nature that because these scenarios keep
Speaker 3: repeating in some way, and we all look at them
Speaker 3: and we say, you know, if I were in that position,
Speaker 3: I bet I wouldn't dot dot dot. I'd be the
Speaker 3: one who finally doesn't or does and and the fact
Speaker 3: that it never happens, it's, you know, we can't we
Speaker 3: can't prevent ourselves. We all get in these emotional places
Speaker 3: and they we react to provocation or what we perceive
Speaker 3: is provocation.
Speaker 1: What about the idea as well, that no one seems
Speaker 1: to be the villain of their own story right now.
Speaker 1: The truth is, if I look back out, because I
Speaker 1: I got sober, I got involved with a bunch of
Speaker 1: people who made me do inventories of myself and my
Speaker 1: behavior and the.
Speaker 2: Times and continue to do it.
Speaker 1: And what I noticed and what drives me crazy about
Speaker 1: these people I'm involved with, for they don't even let
Speaker 1: me say their name. That's okay, but they do. But
Speaker 1: it's the tradition, is sure there? I don't is that
Speaker 1: my part in it is the only part that I
Speaker 1: can do in about right? And do you find that
Speaker 1: like you interact probably less so now, I think with
Speaker 1: pop culture than you did maybe when you were still
Speaker 1: on the times, right, you're probably doing it last night.
Speaker 2: Sure.
Speaker 3: I mean I'm primarily a consumer of it and just
Speaker 3: a just a kind of rank and file audience member.
Speaker 3: I mean, I still write freelance pieces. But you know,
Speaker 3: I don't I don't know that I am at the
Speaker 3: sort of you know, nose to the right at the
Speaker 3: screen kind of person.
Speaker 1: Right, But when you talk to You've talked to a
Speaker 1: lot of people who are accomplished in the arts. Absolutely,
Speaker 1: have you ever met someone who you've thought, this is
Speaker 1: actually someone who's accountable. This is someone who's like, yeah,
Speaker 1: I totally they totally owned who they are and they're accountable.
Speaker 3: Hmmmm, I really I maybe it'll probably occurred to me
Speaker 3: at the moment I step out of the studio, I
Speaker 3: will say, I take a lot of pleasure in you know,
Speaker 3: I've had these experiences before. I mean people who have
Speaker 3: just lived a lot of years and are truthful about
Speaker 3: you know, a book that I wrote about the screenwriter
Speaker 3: Patti Trejevski and his producing partner. By the time I
Speaker 3: wrote the book was in his early eighties, right, and
Speaker 3: beholden to no one anymore, didn't have to worry about
Speaker 3: offending the wrong people or you know, anybody's reputation or what.
Speaker 3: And he was very proud to have worked with Tryevsky
Speaker 3: and had produced films like Network, which you know one
Speaker 3: Oscars was the Best Picture nominee. And he was very
Speaker 3: to my mind candid about his relationship with Treafsky. About
Speaker 3: Traievsky's own volatility, notorious volatility, I mean a guy who
Speaker 3: stormed out of meetings and threw things that people still
Speaker 3: regarded as one of our you know, great screenwriters, but
Speaker 3: had a lot of obvious just you know, ego and
Speaker 3: personality problems.
Speaker 1: And what I see, I don't have a problem with
Speaker 1: an artist having problems. And what I don't understand is
Speaker 1: this relentless drive by the borg for fucking respectability. Why
Speaker 1: does Mulkdiglian he have to be respectable?
Speaker 2: Why does fuck it?
Speaker 1: Oh, Vincent, you cut your ear off? Oh you're thorough?
Speaker 1: Why the fuck should Lamy be a good guy at
Speaker 1: your you know, kid's soccer practice.
Speaker 2: It's not.
Speaker 1: Though vot the kids did well, vote, kids did well
Speaker 1: with a soa living new in a youngsters. But I
Speaker 1: think that I think that there is this weird This
Speaker 1: is why I don't understand the idea that everybody be
Speaker 1: held up to the same.
Speaker 2: Moral value as a middle of the road Sunday school teacher.
Speaker 1: It's I don't I didn't come of age in that
Speaker 1: I didn't feel like that was necessary.
Speaker 3: I mean, we're I don't think as as a as
Speaker 3: a people were ever going to sort that out. I mean,
Speaker 3: you know, I got a guy tattooed on my arm
Speaker 3: who murdered his own girlfriend. I mean that's not mince words.
Speaker 3: I'm not celebrating him for that fact. I look, maybe
Speaker 3: maybe somebody will notice that one day and say, how
Speaker 3: dare you?
Speaker 2: How can you have that?
Speaker 3: Yeah? I mean, my wife's known about it since, you know,
Speaker 3: we've since we've been together. She's never taken umbrage at it,
Speaker 3: and she understands why the symbolism and the spirit of
Speaker 3: sid Vicious means. I mean, I'll never ever live that
Speaker 3: life or come close to it.
Speaker 1: But I don't think you need to, and I don't
Speaker 1: think I don't think anyone needs. I don't said shouldn't
Speaker 1: have done it either, you know.
Speaker 2: But these are the.
Speaker 3: People that, like we just we can't help but at
Speaker 3: least find ourselves fascinated with. And they're the ones at
Speaker 3: the avant garde or the bleeding edge. They're the ones
Speaker 3: that are pushing. Not all of them have to murder
Speaker 3: their girlfriends to do it, but but you know, we
Speaker 3: find that the people who are, you know, in some
Speaker 3: way or another, advancing our culture or making the things
Speaker 3: that are lasting, or contributing to them, you know, or being.
Speaker 2: Swept along by it, you know.
Speaker 1: I mean, the whole saying of I mean said is
Speaker 1: actually a pretty good example.
Speaker 2: Said was what twenty one twenty two.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, I mean a kid, Yeah, and being
Speaker 1: swept up in this this huge look. I was in
Speaker 1: my early forties before I became even a little bit famous,
Speaker 1: and it's a very odd thing to have happened to you.
Speaker 2: I can't imagine how anyone survives in their early twenties.
Speaker 2: That is insane.
Speaker 3: Well, and certainly you know when you look at the
Speaker 3: numbers of those who don't and you know, find it
Speaker 3: so you know, damaging and overwhelming it, and you know,
Speaker 3: and every iteration of it. I mean obviously, now with
Speaker 3: all the different ways that you can be you know,
Speaker 3: examined and being perpetually under the microscope, it seems horrifying.
Speaker 3: But people in eras when all there was was just
Speaker 3: you know, TV and radio and like a handful of newspapers,
Speaker 3: even that was too much to bear.
Speaker 1: Is it necessary for you if you like someone's work,
Speaker 1: that you find their personality acceptable.
Speaker 3: It's very tricky now, right, I mean it's one thing
Speaker 3: to look back at people even from the seventies and
Speaker 3: you can, you know, you can just like just about
Speaker 3: enough time has elapsed right where you can say like, okay, yeah,
Speaker 3: I recognize that they were horrible in this way that way,
Speaker 3: but they're you know, year's gone by, maybe they're dead,
Speaker 3: and so like I can just look at the artifact
Speaker 3: of what they've made. It seems impossible to do now
Speaker 3: that now you really have to be you know, you're
Speaker 3: being evaluated both on the quality of the thing that
Speaker 3: you do or make and in tandem with you know,
Speaker 3: the personality has to be reflected in that somehow, and
Speaker 3: it has to be within you know, like just outside
Speaker 3: the confines, but.
Speaker 4: Also within the confines.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I find that that might be detrimental towards art,
Speaker 1: just in the sense that you know, well, look, let's
Speaker 1: take a different form of art. Let's talk about a chef.
Speaker 1: You ever meet a chef, It wasn't a dick, you know.
Speaker 1: I mean, like every chef I've ever met is a
Speaker 1: fucking dick.
Speaker 3: I'm gonna be eating a lot of fast food on
Speaker 3: the rest of the shift, I think, Craig, But.
Speaker 2: I think it's kind of it's what they kind of
Speaker 2: have to be.
Speaker 1: You know, there is a very high prey a situation.
Speaker 1: It's fairy decisions all the time. You're the one that
Speaker 1: you're on the line for it, nobody else, And it's
Speaker 1: like it seems to either it produces a personality like
Speaker 1: that or it attracts a personality like that, something like that.
Speaker 1: But for you, right is you know, obviously it doesn't
Speaker 1: matter if you go to a restaurant and the food
Speaker 1: taste good. You don't really think about if the chef's
Speaker 1: a deck. But then again, people don't think about who
Speaker 1: makes their iPhones.
Speaker 3: Yeah they I mean, forget it, right if you really
Speaker 3: start pulling that apart, right, Yeah, it's like, so.
Speaker 1: It seems to me a convenient moral stance is what
Speaker 1: it's really taking.
Speaker 2: It's not a real moral stance.
Speaker 1: I mean, if you if you really wanted to get
Speaker 1: moral stands, you wouldn't put any gasoline in your car
Speaker 1: and you wouldn't have an iPhone.
Speaker 2: You just would.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 3: So I think it's up to look, you know, this
Speaker 3: is the greatest cop out of all time, but it's
Speaker 3: up to the individual. And if somebody transgresses, whether it's
Speaker 3: a chef or an artist or whomever, it is to
Speaker 3: a degree that you know, you find, you know, offensive
Speaker 3: or untenable.
Speaker 4: Like I think you have a right.
Speaker 3: To yes, you do, you personally with you know, have
Speaker 3: a right to addraw. I mean, you know, if you're
Speaker 3: talking about criminal offense, then.
Speaker 2: Committed crime, you go to jail. Right, That's the way
Speaker 2: it is.
Speaker 3: But when you're just talking about you know, a personality
Speaker 3: thing and an ego thing, and you're you know, like
Speaker 3: you can you can in your mind cancel that person.
Speaker 3: You know, the question like the need to cultivate you know,
Speaker 3: a kind of a mob or just a you know,
Speaker 3: an outcry around an incident that you know, is that
Speaker 3: that dynamic seems pretty entrenched now too.
Speaker 1: It's also a little tired, I think, because you get
Speaker 1: the idea that you know, people are saying that they're annoyed,
Speaker 1: and you go, what people are saying that, you know,
Speaker 1: like forty people on Twitter, I don't care. You know,
Speaker 1: it's not even Twitter anymore, is it twigs?
Speaker 2: Forty people on Twigs?
Speaker 3: Right?
Speaker 2: I think that's like.
Speaker 3: The best thing that you know, of all the ways
Speaker 3: that the site has been kind of ruined and made
Speaker 3: like unusable, at least like it's it doesn't have that
Speaker 3: kind of like the power to just like generate those
Speaker 3: that that kind of like those instant mobs.
Speaker 2: No delay. It's really interesting it.
Speaker 1: I wonder if if Musk really is a genius and
Speaker 1: he won I'm gonna declaude, this motherfucker. I'm gonna it's
Speaker 1: gonna be it's gonna be A kitten is going to
Speaker 1: be totally fucking useless.
Speaker 3: I mean I think, yes, I don't know the kittens.
Speaker 4: Are now you're canceled.
Speaker 3: I look, I mean, I'm sure that he went in
Speaker 3: with some kind of intent of, like, you know, making
Speaker 3: it less powerful and less responsive to like the group
Speaker 3: dynamics that that you know that made it so popular.
Speaker 4: There's no question about it.
Speaker 3: But like whether I don't know whether whether he intended
Speaker 3: it to have the effect that it was going to
Speaker 3: have on like celebrity culture. I think that like he
Speaker 3: couldn't have possibly intended that, like all of his like
Speaker 3: these great you know, to have all these contributors, people
Speaker 3: who you could have, you know, in other circumstances you
Speaker 3: would have been paying large sums of money to like
Speaker 3: generate content for you every day and to just alienate
Speaker 3: them on masks like there's no you're right, that was
Speaker 3: not part of the business.
Speaker 1: We've come through a circle. He's a goddamn idiot. So
Speaker 1: here's the thing I wanted to ask you. I bet
Speaker 1: you get asked a lot if someone of your friends says,
Speaker 1: you know you were interviewing I don't know Michael, okay,
Speaker 1: and they would say what was he like? And you
Speaker 1: have to say he was nice because if you know,
Speaker 1: if with Michael Kain, it's easy because he is nice. Right,
Speaker 1: But you know you're going to shout someone's dreams if
Speaker 1: you tell them that he was dreadful and he smelled
Speaker 1: like he but.
Speaker 2: She doesn't and he isn't.
Speaker 4: I'm sure he's fragrant as a rose.
Speaker 2: But here's what I think you've done.
Speaker 1: It's very, very clever that we've talked for this entire
Speaker 1: podcast about other people, because I think that's what you do.
Speaker 1: I think you deflect as much as possible away from
Speaker 1: yourself myself.
Speaker 2: Yeah, why do you think you do that?
Speaker 4: I don't know.
Speaker 3: You know, it's interesting because I don't imagine that I'm
Speaker 3: actively doing it.
Speaker 2: I don't think you've mean them too.
Speaker 3: So I just think, and I even thought that, I'm
Speaker 3: not accusing you or or criticizing or anything. I thought
Speaker 3: we kind of did talk about some personal things. But yeah,
Speaker 3: I mean you you sat and looked at me and
Speaker 3: listened to me for the last forty five minutes.
Speaker 4: I gotta I gotta give you some credence.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: I think what it is is that you I don't
Speaker 1: think you're guarded. I really don't. I don't get from
Speaker 1: you that you're trying to hide. Thanks, But I do
Speaker 1: get that you have a genuine curiosity, which I think
Speaker 1: is fascinating given given the fact that you've been doing
Speaker 1: it for you haven't been doing it for fifty years
Speaker 1: for a while.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I didn't start, you know, yesterday. Is sad to say,
Speaker 3: but yeah, I don't. I don't think I'm not like
Speaker 3: other than a couple of things, I'm not like guarded
Speaker 3: about myself and I'm not really protecting anything.
Speaker 1: Except do you want to tell me who you're working on?
Speaker 1: A boogwet? That's right, but that's okay, that's a professional decision.
Speaker 4: Yes, thank you, that's all right.
Speaker 1: It's not like, you know, how do you like your
Speaker 1: you know, sex or anything?
Speaker 2: How do you like your sex?
Speaker 4: What your sex?
Speaker 2: How do you like your sex?
Speaker 4: I have never heard this word.
Speaker 2: Wait, I.
Speaker 4: Got to look this up.
Speaker 2: How do you like your sex?
Speaker 1: Do you like it? Do you like the ladies sex?
Speaker 1: Or do you like the other one?
Speaker 3: If I go online and type in the word sex. Well,
Speaker 3: I find information on this.
Speaker 2: You'll get a lot. I tell you what not to do.
Speaker 2: Don't do this.
Speaker 1: When when we were in Los Angeles, my wife she
Speaker 1: felt her skin was getting very dry, she said, I
Speaker 1: think I really need to get some treatment for this.
Speaker 2: Go to a spy, I get some connections. My skin's
Speaker 2: very dry.
Speaker 1: Okay, So she googled Ellie's best facial, which is.
Speaker 2: A very it's a very very bad idea.
Speaker 4: Oh my god.
Speaker 1: So never never do that, although apparently it is good
Speaker 1: for you. So David, it's been lovely to talk to you.
Speaker 3: So much for inviting me to come by and do
Speaker 3: this and to get to catch up with you like this.
Speaker 3: I'm so thrilled you are.
Speaker 1: You know, you are a man who understands a loose
Speaker 1: format and and I like that.
Speaker 2: And I do get that you get a sense of
Speaker 2: joy at what you do. That I really do.
Speaker 4: Thank you so so much.
Speaker 2: I do.
Speaker 3: And you know, there's nobody who I'd rather share a
Speaker 3: loose format.
Speaker 4: With than you, Craig.
Speaker 2: Thank you, my friend, Thank you. Good luck