WEBVTT - Dan Savage: Sex and Candor 0:00:05.640 --> 0:00:09.200 Hi Katie, Hi there, Brian. We should warn listeners that 0:00:09.240 --> 0:00:13.880 our podcast today should probably get an R rating. If 0:00:13.960 --> 0:00:16.800 you have young children in the room, you may want 0:00:16.920 --> 0:00:20.520 to have them listen to something else. Our guest today 0:00:21.079 --> 0:00:25.520 is an expert on relationships and sex. In fact, it's 0:00:25.560 --> 0:00:28.440 something of a living legend on those topics. For over 0:00:28.520 --> 0:00:33.000 twenty five years, Dan Savage has dished out sex advice, 0:00:33.080 --> 0:00:37.000 love advice in his syndicated Savage Love column. He's also 0:00:37.040 --> 0:00:42.680 written several books about his own family and relationships, dance writing, 0:00:42.760 --> 0:00:47.960 and well. Dan himself actually is, by turns withering, empathetic, hilarious, 0:00:48.360 --> 0:00:54.320 brutally honest, a little dirty, and always always fearless. And 0:00:54.400 --> 0:00:58.160 for Dan, the personal is definitely political. He often writes 0:00:58.240 --> 0:01:03.520 about abortion laws, contraception, gay rights, HIV and AIDS, and 0:01:03.720 --> 0:01:07.240 he's no stranger to taking on politicians as well, most 0:01:07.280 --> 0:01:10.520 notably Rick Santorum. And you're gonna have to google that 0:01:10.560 --> 0:01:13.200 one because I really am not going to describe it. 0:01:13.360 --> 0:01:17.240 We covered a lot of ground in this conversation, from 0:01:17.319 --> 0:01:21.800 Dan's childhood to how he became a columnist, his love 0:01:21.840 --> 0:01:25.800 affair with Ann Landers, which is fascinating, his It Gets 0:01:25.840 --> 0:01:31.119 Better campaign, how he feels about Donald Trump and by 0:01:31.160 --> 0:01:36.640 the way, not very kindly, all sorts of things in between. 0:01:36.959 --> 0:01:42.240 So here's our conversation with Dan Savage. With all due 0:01:42.240 --> 0:01:44.680 respect to the Dosac case. Man, I think you're the 0:01:44.720 --> 0:01:47.960 most interesting man in the world. You have done so 0:01:48.000 --> 0:01:51.360 many things. Just reading about you, I think, what hasn't 0:01:51.480 --> 0:01:55.200 Dan Savage done. You've written books, you've hosted podcasts, you've 0:01:55.280 --> 0:01:58.400 led advocacy campaigns. We're going to get into all that 0:01:58.480 --> 0:02:00.920 in a moment, but first we want to talk about 0:02:00.960 --> 0:02:04.840 your long running advice column called Savage Love. You've been 0:02:04.840 --> 0:02:08.200 doing it for twenty five years. When your column first 0:02:08.200 --> 0:02:13.120 came out, it was a very new phenomenon, wasn't it 0:02:13.160 --> 0:02:16.560 a gay man giving frank sexual and relationship advice to 0:02:16.600 --> 0:02:19.440 mostly straight people. Yeah. At first, the idea, you know, 0:02:19.480 --> 0:02:21.320 the concept originally was it just gonna be a joke, 0:02:21.360 --> 0:02:22.880 and I was gonna do it for six months or 0:02:22.919 --> 0:02:26.200 a year, and I was going to treat the straight people, 0:02:26.960 --> 0:02:29.600 uh and straight sex with the same contempt and revulsion 0:02:29.680 --> 0:02:32.560 that hetersexual straight lady advice comments had always treated gay 0:02:32.560 --> 0:02:34.920 people and gay sex with, you know, an landers who 0:02:34.960 --> 0:02:38.280 I loved back in the day, the Playboy advisor. These 0:02:38.320 --> 0:02:42.280 people would occasionally take a gay question and you know, 0:02:42.520 --> 0:02:44.600 hold it with tongs and wrinkled their noses, but then 0:02:44.639 --> 0:02:47.160 give a little advice. Uh. And I thought I should 0:02:47.160 --> 0:02:49.000 do that to straight people and see how they liked it. 0:02:49.080 --> 0:02:52.960 And it turned out that they really liked it. Why 0:02:53.000 --> 0:02:57.080 they liked like, how gross is straight sex kind? It 0:02:57.240 --> 0:02:58.840 was the first year of it was I can't believe 0:02:58.840 --> 0:03:00.639 you would do such a disgusting and your poor mother 0:03:00.720 --> 0:03:04.880 must be heartbroken. Here's some advice that's so funny. And 0:03:04.919 --> 0:03:06.640 it took off. And I think it was because, you know, 0:03:06.639 --> 0:03:08.680 straight people have never been treated this way before. And 0:03:08.720 --> 0:03:10.920 it was, you know, humorous if you were straight, to 0:03:10.919 --> 0:03:13.160 be treated as if you were powerless, which you weren't. 0:03:13.720 --> 0:03:16.679 Um and the advice was I guess good because the 0:03:16.760 --> 0:03:19.320 letters started just pouring in and this kind of joke 0:03:19.400 --> 0:03:22.880 advice column under my feet within the first twelve months 0:03:22.919 --> 0:03:25.480 became an actual advice column. I'm sure the only person 0:03:25.520 --> 0:03:28.040 who could turn you away from being gay was a 0:03:28.320 --> 0:03:30.800 lanterns Now, what up with that? Dan? How did you 0:03:30.840 --> 0:03:34.360 become obsessed with of all people and landers? Instead of 0:03:34.400 --> 0:03:36.760 by the way her sister Abby, I grew up in 0:03:36.800 --> 0:03:41.120 a newspaper house. My grandfather worked for the Chicago Daily 0:03:41.160 --> 0:03:44.440 News in Chicago Star, both now closed unfortunately, And so 0:03:44.480 --> 0:03:46.520 we got all the papers when I was a kid 0:03:46.840 --> 0:03:51.560 living in my grandparents house of my family, um MultiGen household, 0:03:51.680 --> 0:03:55.840 and so really the comics and the advice columns were 0:03:55.880 --> 0:03:58.360 the entry point for young you know, for the kids 0:03:58.400 --> 0:04:00.160 who looked at the newspapers were spread out all over 0:04:00.160 --> 0:04:03.040 the dining room table. Uh. And so I just started 0:04:03.040 --> 0:04:05.880 reading and Landers, and we were liberals and Dems, So 0:04:05.920 --> 0:04:08.920 we got the Suntimes after a while stopped gtting the Tribune, 0:04:08.920 --> 0:04:10.600 which is where Abby was. So I grew up reading 0:04:11.080 --> 0:04:14.880 and who you know, grew and learned over the years 0:04:15.200 --> 0:04:18.960 and you know, changed her position on gay people and 0:04:19.040 --> 0:04:21.080 a right to exist and why we exist. But what 0:04:21.200 --> 0:04:23.640 I was reading in Anne when I was, you know, 0:04:23.720 --> 0:04:27.039 eight eleven twelve wasn't very positive. But that's you know, 0:04:27.120 --> 0:04:29.280 she was over generation and we can't judge her through 0:04:29.279 --> 0:04:31.120 the light of it right this minute. We have to 0:04:31.160 --> 0:04:32.600 look at her in the context of them. And she 0:04:32.800 --> 0:04:35.919 was compassionate in ways that other uh folks in the 0:04:35.960 --> 0:04:38.560 culture at that point weren't. In fact, you bought her 0:04:38.640 --> 0:04:41.760 desk at an auction. Is that right? I did? Uh? 0:04:41.920 --> 0:04:44.760 I got her daughter, Margot Howard's her daughter, one of 0:04:44.800 --> 0:04:47.760 the original dear Prudences. It's late. Uh. So she wrote 0:04:47.760 --> 0:04:49.719 an advice came for many years. And I called her 0:04:49.760 --> 0:04:52.480 when I heard about the auction of a Landers effects 0:04:52.480 --> 0:04:54.760 and got her permission because I didn't want it to 0:04:54.800 --> 0:04:57.480 be spun in the media as if I was being 0:04:57.520 --> 0:05:00.400 somehow disrespectful to the memory of a Landers doing something 0:05:00.440 --> 0:05:04.239 that might upset her daughter. Uh. And got Margot's permission. 0:05:04.240 --> 0:05:06.280 And Margot and I are now friends and we chat 0:05:06.320 --> 0:05:08.920 all the time. And so I write my very dirty, 0:05:09.000 --> 0:05:11.640 very different sex advice column at the same desk. Grand 0:05:11.680 --> 0:05:14.600 Landers wrote her column for forty five years. We want 0:05:14.600 --> 0:05:16.919 to give our listeners a feel for your column and 0:05:17.000 --> 0:05:19.480 your podcast. So let's go over some of the signature 0:05:19.560 --> 0:05:23.559 savage love acronyms and catchphrases. Rapid fire, You ready, I'm ready? 0:05:23.560 --> 0:05:26.760 Are your listeners ready? I don't know, I don't know. 0:05:26.920 --> 0:05:30.560 I hope. So what's the Campsite rule? The Campsite rule 0:05:30.640 --> 0:05:34.160 is that if there's a large age difference or experience 0:05:34.240 --> 0:05:37.520 gap between two people who are hooking up or or 0:05:37.560 --> 0:05:40.440 friends with benefits, or even dating that it is on 0:05:40.880 --> 0:05:43.159 the onus is on the older or more experienced partner 0:05:43.240 --> 0:05:46.760 to leave the younger or less experienced partner in better 0:05:46.800 --> 0:05:49.400 shape than you found them, which is the rule for 0:05:49.520 --> 0:05:51.200 when you camp. You should always leave your campsite in 0:05:51.200 --> 0:05:53.400 better shape than you found it, and we should all 0:05:53.440 --> 0:05:56.080 and it should apply generally like you should always leave 0:05:56.640 --> 0:05:59.520 people that you've dated or been with, hopefully in better 0:05:59.520 --> 0:06:01.640 shape than you found them. But in this context, you 0:06:01.680 --> 0:06:04.159 know the older younger. It means uh, you know, no 0:06:04.240 --> 0:06:09.040 sexually transmitted infections, no one planned pregnancies, no needless pain, 0:06:09.560 --> 0:06:12.960 no promises that you know you can't fulfill uh and 0:06:12.960 --> 0:06:15.440 that you help this person learn and grow while they're 0:06:15.440 --> 0:06:17.679 with you, and you don't leave them in worse shape 0:06:17.680 --> 0:06:19.960 than you found them. The camp say rule, what about 0:06:20.040 --> 0:06:22.640 g G good giving in game? That's what we should 0:06:22.640 --> 0:06:25.200 all be for our sex partners, UM good in bed. 0:06:25.360 --> 0:06:27.520 You know you want to acquire some skills. A human 0:06:27.520 --> 0:06:29.359 means a lot more complicated than a violin, and no 0:06:29.360 --> 0:06:31.120 one can play the violin the first time they pick 0:06:31.120 --> 0:06:34.560 it up. You gotta practice UH giving, which is sometimes 0:06:34.560 --> 0:06:38.279 you give pleasure UH in your indulgent without an expectation 0:06:38.279 --> 0:06:40.160 of an immediate return. That everything doesn't have to be 0:06:40.200 --> 0:06:44.480 instantly and equally reciprocity in the moment that sometimes you give. 0:06:44.600 --> 0:06:47.000 It doesn't have to be good for everybody. Well hopefully 0:06:47.000 --> 0:06:49.279 it's not. You want it to be traumatic for anybody 0:06:49.360 --> 0:06:52.239 or or unpleasant for anybody. But sometimes you are giving 0:06:52.839 --> 0:06:55.640 UM and not getting at that moment and that's okay. 0:06:55.920 --> 0:06:59.279 And game means sort of up for anything within reason. 0:07:00.279 --> 0:07:02.360 That sex should be an adventure that you two are 0:07:02.400 --> 0:07:06.200 on together. UM, and you know it's like good improv. 0:07:06.360 --> 0:07:09.559 You never say no in improv, and you want to, 0:07:09.960 --> 0:07:12.520 you know, be the person for your partner, particularly if 0:07:12.520 --> 0:07:16.440 it's a sexually exclusive relationship, Be the person who makes 0:07:16.480 --> 0:07:19.520 things happen for your partner. Be the person they come to, UH, 0:07:20.120 --> 0:07:22.760 who's going to welcome their fantasies or interests or kinson 0:07:23.080 --> 0:07:26.960 and celebrate them and make that stuff happen dot dot 0:07:26.960 --> 0:07:29.440 dot within reason. You know, being G G G good. 0:07:29.480 --> 0:07:31.200 Giving a game doesn't mean you do anything that your 0:07:31.200 --> 0:07:34.240 partner asks or wants and no, but he gets everything 0:07:34.280 --> 0:07:38.200 they want out of a relationship. UM. And sometimes you pay. 0:07:38.360 --> 0:07:40.200 It's another thing that to call them the price of 0:07:40.240 --> 0:07:42.680 admission is kind of grows out of G G G. 0:07:42.920 --> 0:07:44.520 And the price of admission is, you know, the price 0:07:44.560 --> 0:07:46.520 you pay to be with somebody. You know, if you're 0:07:46.720 --> 0:07:50.120 desperately into sex act X and that's not something that 0:07:50.200 --> 0:07:52.920 your partner will ever do, then the price of admission 0:07:52.920 --> 0:07:54.200 that you pay to be with that person as you 0:07:54.200 --> 0:07:56.960 never get to do that. And what about c posts 0:07:58.120 --> 0:08:00.880 that stands for cheating piece of shit? Uh? And do 0:08:00.920 --> 0:08:03.160 you have a lot of people call you dan or 0:08:03.200 --> 0:08:07.120 write to you and and they are writing about their 0:08:07.200 --> 0:08:10.880 c pos mostly I get letters. When people use the 0:08:10.880 --> 0:08:12.360 acronym in a letter to me, they're using it to 0:08:12.400 --> 0:08:15.320 describe themselves. Really they you know, they say that I 0:08:15.400 --> 0:08:17.680 feel terrible, I'm a CPO s I'm a cheating piece 0:08:17.720 --> 0:08:20.840 of ship. Uh. And talking about non monogamy is not 0:08:20.960 --> 0:08:24.120 to tear down people who value monogamy, who want monogamy, 0:08:24.160 --> 0:08:27.160 who want a monogamous commitment, creating a universe where people 0:08:27.200 --> 0:08:30.840 who don't want monogamy and can't honor a monogamous commitment 0:08:31.080 --> 0:08:33.280 can go make commitments to people who also don't want 0:08:33.320 --> 0:08:37.040 monogamy and don't want a monogamous commitments. That makes people 0:08:37.040 --> 0:08:39.840 who end up in monogamous relationships that makes those monogamous 0:08:39.920 --> 0:08:42.600 relationships safer and stronger, just like not having gay men 0:08:42.679 --> 0:08:46.400 mary straight women makes marriage stronger. Not having people who 0:08:46.440 --> 0:08:50.400 can't do monogamy making commitments to people who demand monogamy 0:08:50.600 --> 0:08:53.640 makes those monogamous commitments that are ultimately made stronger if 0:08:53.679 --> 0:08:58.240 the non monogamous and monogamous sort themselves. You're an early 0:08:58.320 --> 0:09:02.280 podcast adopter, and I'm curious, what is the podcast offer 0:09:02.320 --> 0:09:04.839 you that the column doesn't. Uh, you can really get 0:09:04.880 --> 0:09:09.280 into the nuance in a podcast, the columns um and 0:09:09.320 --> 0:09:12.120 you really have to boil everything down to the nut. 0:09:12.280 --> 0:09:16.000 And on a podcast you can. You can digress, and 0:09:16.080 --> 0:09:18.120 I can get people on the phone and instead of 0:09:18.120 --> 0:09:19.880 it just being here's the letter, here's my response, we 0:09:19.920 --> 0:09:23.040 can have a conversation. I can bring in guest experts 0:09:23.080 --> 0:09:25.640 and and interview them at great length about an issue 0:09:25.720 --> 0:09:29.480 or a problem. Um. It just allows for more. Although now, 0:09:29.520 --> 0:09:32.160 because my podcast has been around for so long, when 0:09:32.160 --> 0:09:34.120 I was podcasting so early, people like, oh my god, 0:09:34.400 --> 0:09:36.679 you were an early adopter of this new format. You 0:09:36.760 --> 0:09:39.679 must be a you know, a genius and you had 0:09:39.679 --> 0:09:41.360 such foresight. And it's like no, no, no, no, there 0:09:41.360 --> 0:09:43.320 were I call them the tech savvy at risk youth. 0:09:43.880 --> 0:09:46.200 There were people that I worked with who are young 0:09:46.400 --> 0:09:49.280 and tech savvy, who are like you were going to 0:09:49.360 --> 0:09:51.560 start doing this podcast whether you like it or not, 0:09:51.600 --> 0:09:54.280 and they kind of forced me to do it. I 0:09:54.440 --> 0:09:58.040 was very resistant. What are most of the calls about? 0:09:59.720 --> 0:10:02.280 Said situational ethics. You know, twenty six years ago when 0:10:02.320 --> 0:10:05.080 I started writing Savage Love, half the questions were, you know, 0:10:05.200 --> 0:10:08.880 what's about plug? Or where's the swingers club in my area? 0:10:09.160 --> 0:10:11.480 Two words I never thought i'd hear on this bad 0:10:11.559 --> 0:10:18.040 gast and now and this may be helpful to you, Katie. Now, 0:10:18.080 --> 0:10:19.720 butt Plug has a wiki page, so you don't have 0:10:19.720 --> 0:10:21.320 to write into me to ask what it is after 0:10:21.320 --> 0:10:24.400 you overheard someone talking about one of the bus and 0:10:24.440 --> 0:10:26.360 swingers clubs all have their own website, so you don't 0:10:26.400 --> 0:10:28.920 need sort of specialized magazines with you know, referrals to 0:10:28.960 --> 0:10:31.240 p O boxes to find a swing club and Dallas, 0:10:31.280 --> 0:10:33.880 just google Dallas and swingers clubs and they pop right up. 0:10:34.440 --> 0:10:36.280 So all the questions I get now with the podcast 0:10:36.360 --> 0:10:38.920 and the column are I did this, they did that, 0:10:39.120 --> 0:10:41.360 I'm mad about this, they're mad about that. Who's right, 0:10:41.360 --> 0:10:44.480 who's wrong? And you have to kind of way in 0:10:45.240 --> 0:10:48.319 on these situational ethics, that the situation of ethics of 0:10:48.400 --> 0:10:50.840 this problem in this conflict. And it's a lot harder 0:10:50.880 --> 0:10:54.319 now to write an advice column than it used to 0:10:54.400 --> 0:10:56.120 be because you don't get I used to call them 0:10:56.120 --> 0:10:58.720 definitions and referrals. I don't get defined this, what is this? 0:10:59.000 --> 0:11:00.800 And I don't get referral q is anymore because the 0:11:00.840 --> 0:11:04.760 Internet does that. All I get are this is what happened. 0:11:05.120 --> 0:11:08.360 We need a ruling from Solomon about how we're going 0:11:08.400 --> 0:11:10.280 to cut this baby in half or whether we should. 0:11:10.960 --> 0:11:12.880 When when did you realize you were good at giving 0:11:12.920 --> 0:11:14.480 people advice? I mean you were a little bit of 0:11:14.520 --> 0:11:17.240 a of an outcast in in high school. You were 0:11:17.280 --> 0:11:20.679 the only out gay person in your class. As I 0:11:20.760 --> 0:11:23.440 understand it, and so did you did you sort of 0:11:23.440 --> 0:11:26.440 always feel a little bit separated from the back. It's 0:11:26.480 --> 0:11:29.840 just the way. Women, I think think more about gender 0:11:30.360 --> 0:11:34.360 because it impacts them more severely, you know, gender based discrimination, 0:11:34.840 --> 0:11:36.560 and people of color think more about race. I think 0:11:36.559 --> 0:11:38.480 when you're gay, you think more about sex because it's 0:11:38.480 --> 0:11:41.200 what makes you different. It sets you apart and complicates 0:11:41.200 --> 0:11:43.240 your life, and you have to be a little bit 0:11:43.280 --> 0:11:46.120 more thoughtful about it, and I realized early in life, 0:11:46.120 --> 0:11:48.200 and I was rare for gay men of my generation. 0:11:48.240 --> 0:11:50.960 I'm fifty years old. It was rare for kids to 0:11:50.960 --> 0:11:53.720 be coming out in high school who are my age. 0:11:53.720 --> 0:11:55.880 But I did come out in high school and instantly 0:11:55.880 --> 0:11:58.360 became kind of the go to guy for my straight 0:11:58.400 --> 0:12:02.560 friends who had relationship problems or sex questions, UM, because 0:12:02.559 --> 0:12:04.960 I think they just intuitive that I was thinking more 0:12:05.000 --> 0:12:08.080 about these things than they were, because I had to 0:12:08.520 --> 0:12:11.719 think more about these things. Uh. And I think that's 0:12:11.720 --> 0:12:13.319 true for a lot of gay people. We talked a 0:12:13.360 --> 0:12:17.240 lot of gay men, lesbians, uh, even very young uh 0:12:17.240 --> 0:12:19.559 and recently out or out in college, and they'll tell 0:12:19.600 --> 0:12:22.240 you that they're the person that their friends confide in 0:12:22.280 --> 0:12:25.760 about their sex and relationship problems. I think because you know, 0:12:25.800 --> 0:12:28.560 they figure, you gave yourself permission not to be gay, 0:12:28.600 --> 0:12:32.280 but to be out, and maybe you'll give them permission 0:12:32.320 --> 0:12:35.080 to be whoever they actually are and help them let 0:12:35.160 --> 0:12:38.760 go of normal, which plagues a lot of people. You know. 0:12:38.800 --> 0:12:40.959 I was. I was struck that you came of age 0:12:41.040 --> 0:12:45.280 as a gay guy in a conservative Catholic household and 0:12:45.480 --> 0:12:48.679 during the height or the depths of the AIDS epidemics, 0:12:48.760 --> 0:12:53.280 I'm just curious how those two experiences shaped the sort 0:12:53.280 --> 0:12:56.800 of journalist and columnist you later became. Well, I got 0:12:56.800 --> 0:13:01.040 a Catholic education, educated by Jesuits, and you know, my 0:13:01.120 --> 0:13:05.480 parents were evangelical Catholics before that was a hip thing 0:13:05.520 --> 0:13:09.640 to be, which seems to be now. Um. And my 0:13:09.679 --> 0:13:12.720 mother would joke later, you know, after she came around 0:13:12.760 --> 0:13:14.760 on the gay thing, which she did pretty quickly after 0:13:14.800 --> 0:13:18.000 I came out, that the values that they had imparted 0:13:18.000 --> 0:13:20.720 to us, part of sort of their interpretation of the 0:13:20.720 --> 0:13:22.599 Catholic tradition was one of the reasons that I was 0:13:22.640 --> 0:13:24.600 out to them. And so it kind of blew back 0:13:25.040 --> 0:13:28.400 and bit them on the ass because they were very 0:13:28.480 --> 0:13:31.240 much about, you know, the importance of being honest and 0:13:31.600 --> 0:13:35.360 loving the people in your life and being truthful, uh, 0:13:35.400 --> 0:13:38.240 and not being deceitful. And yet I felt myself, you know, 0:13:38.240 --> 0:13:40.520 when I was young and Catholic and I thought about 0:13:40.520 --> 0:13:42.280 being a priest, I thought about, I could never come out. 0:13:42.280 --> 0:13:45.439 It would kill my parents. Um. I thought about, you know, 0:13:45.480 --> 0:13:47.520 I'll need to find a woman that I can lie 0:13:47.559 --> 0:13:50.480 to for fifty years and marry her. And then that 0:13:50.559 --> 0:13:52.319 was just so in conflict with what I had been 0:13:52.360 --> 0:13:57.320 taught about right and wrong uh, in Sunday School, at 0:13:57.320 --> 0:14:00.240 my Catholic grade school, at my Catholic high school, to 0:14:00.240 --> 0:14:02.480 to lie to someone all their life like that, to 0:14:02.600 --> 0:14:06.360 mislead someone, and it just forced me to to be out. 0:14:06.440 --> 0:14:08.800 It just felt like it grew out of my sort 0:14:08.840 --> 0:14:13.280 of education. Even though my faith didn't survive my coming out. 0:14:13.320 --> 0:14:15.559 And I actually came out before the AIDS epidemic. I 0:14:15.640 --> 0:14:19.800 came out in and then uh into that buzz saw 0:14:20.840 --> 0:14:24.000 uh and watched a lot of my friends die in 0:14:24.080 --> 0:14:29.680 their mid twenties and early thirties. And that was really rough. 0:14:29.920 --> 0:14:31.880 And there was you know, there were moments there at 0:14:31.880 --> 0:14:33.880 the beginning of the HIV AIDS epidemic where I watched 0:14:33.920 --> 0:14:36.520 people that I knew to be gay go back in 0:14:36.560 --> 0:14:40.680 the closet um or or renounced their homosexuality and who 0:14:40.680 --> 0:14:46.000 were already infected and then died anyway, Uh, and it it, 0:14:46.240 --> 0:14:49.520 you know, the AIDS epidemic forced us to start telling 0:14:49.560 --> 0:14:53.200 the truth. Um. People were outed because they you know, 0:14:53.280 --> 0:14:58.680 suddenly had Carposi sarcoma UM. And it also forced us 0:14:58.720 --> 0:15:02.440 to tell the truth about about how we were having sex. 0:15:02.480 --> 0:15:05.680 You know, it used to be you know before HIV AIDS, 0:15:05.720 --> 0:15:07.720 there was the sex that everybody agreed that everybody ought 0:15:07.760 --> 0:15:09.400 to be having, even though everybody kind of knew that 0:15:09.400 --> 0:15:12.040 everybody wasn't having necessarily that kind of sex. And what 0:15:12.200 --> 0:15:14.520 AIDS force was a conversation about the sex people were 0:15:14.560 --> 0:15:17.880 actually having, not the sex that we all agreed people 0:15:17.920 --> 0:15:20.200 ought to have, which was the kind of sex that 0:15:20.320 --> 0:15:23.040 most advice columnists specialized in, like what you ought to 0:15:23.080 --> 0:15:25.360 be doing? And what was different about savage love. When 0:15:25.360 --> 0:15:27.400 I started, it really did grow out of my experience 0:15:27.400 --> 0:15:30.560 in the HIV AIDS epidemic um the crisis, the worst 0:15:30.640 --> 0:15:33.520 years of it was let's talk about what we're actually doing, 0:15:33.640 --> 0:15:36.280 because that's where the risk comes in. As as I'm 0:15:36.320 --> 0:15:39.560 listening to Dan, I'm thinking how ironic it is that 0:15:39.680 --> 0:15:45.560 in some ways the AIDS epidemic accelerated the acceptance and 0:15:45.720 --> 0:15:50.160 tolerance in it, certainly in some quarters of gay people 0:15:50.200 --> 0:15:55.080 in general. Absolutely, you know, before the AIDS epidemic, we 0:15:55.080 --> 0:15:57.000 were just you know, gay people started coming out on 0:15:57.120 --> 0:16:01.360 mass after the Stonewall riots in Mine and there was 0:16:01.400 --> 0:16:06.560 this kind of you know, bakan knowledge, youthful, exuberant adolescence 0:16:07.120 --> 0:16:09.400 of the movement where people were just so thrilled to 0:16:09.440 --> 0:16:12.320 be out and open and able to live openly, love openly, 0:16:12.360 --> 0:16:15.360 and it was just kind of a party. And that 0:16:15.400 --> 0:16:17.280 was the you know, the hedonism that people like Jerry 0:16:17.280 --> 0:16:21.160 Fallwell pointed to um and condemned. And then the AIDS 0:16:21.200 --> 0:16:24.440 epidemics slammed into the community and you suddenly saw that, 0:16:24.880 --> 0:16:27.720 you know, we suffered and died, and we suffered and 0:16:27.760 --> 0:16:30.800 died and loved and took care of each other at 0:16:30.840 --> 0:16:34.160 a time when even our own families refused to take 0:16:34.160 --> 0:16:37.400 care of us. Plus the activism, I think that that 0:16:37.480 --> 0:16:40.760 grew out of the AIDS epidemic. I think made a 0:16:40.800 --> 0:16:45.960 lot more people aware and exposed to the fact that 0:16:46.160 --> 0:16:48.280 there were a lot of gay people in the world, right, 0:16:48.600 --> 0:16:53.680 and it put put them front and center in some ways, 0:16:53.760 --> 0:16:59.120 obviously under terrible circumstances, but gave them much greater attention. 0:16:59.200 --> 0:17:02.600 And if people don't have awareness, obviously it's hard for 0:17:02.640 --> 0:17:06.840 them to go from awareness to acceptance. Right. It was 0:17:07.000 --> 0:17:10.040 a terrible circumstance in some ways. To borrow a phrase, 0:17:10.119 --> 0:17:13.359 also our finest hour, because we didn't collapse. You know, 0:17:13.880 --> 0:17:15.919 people forget what was being said that I remember it 0:17:15.920 --> 0:17:18.560 all very distinctly, you know, William F. Buckley saying that 0:17:18.600 --> 0:17:20.760 gay men should be tattooed on the arm and the buttocks. 0:17:21.720 --> 0:17:25.800 You had people talking about mass quarantining of openly gay 0:17:25.840 --> 0:17:30.400 people on islands. Um Pat Buchanan floated that in columns 0:17:30.440 --> 0:17:33.800 that ran in the Washington Post. It was a perilous moment, 0:17:33.800 --> 0:17:36.640 and we did feel like everything, that what little visibility 0:17:36.680 --> 0:17:38.760 and little security that we enjoyed, was going to be 0:17:39.280 --> 0:17:41.800 ripped away from us. And instead of, uh, you know, 0:17:41.840 --> 0:17:43.360 I mentioned, you know, a few people I knew who 0:17:43.359 --> 0:17:45.880 went back into the closet, that's not the reaction that uh, 0:17:45.920 --> 0:17:48.000 the overwhelming majority of gay people had. People who were 0:17:48.080 --> 0:17:50.320 not out yet came out and came out fighting, and 0:17:50.359 --> 0:17:52.800 people who are already out refused to see an inch 0:17:52.880 --> 0:17:55.480 of the ground that we had secured for ourselves. And 0:17:55.520 --> 0:17:58.240 it really was a war, and it was a war 0:17:58.320 --> 0:18:02.159 that we won. It's interesting Jerry Folwell, whom you mentioned 0:18:02.160 --> 0:18:05.520 earlier and other key figures on the religious right, basically 0:18:05.600 --> 0:18:09.080 said this was punishment for the sin of being gay. 0:18:09.119 --> 0:18:11.320 Why do you think you were able to win that 0:18:11.440 --> 0:18:14.960 battle in the public consciousness against all of these figures 0:18:15.000 --> 0:18:18.480 who you know, had a lot more history and maybe 0:18:18.520 --> 0:18:23.879 credibility among millions of Americans than sort of unknown gay activists, 0:18:23.920 --> 0:18:27.959 maybe because it was such a disgusting, despicable comment and observation, 0:18:28.080 --> 0:18:30.720 Maybe that they had that going for Yeah, we did 0:18:30.760 --> 0:18:33.399 have that going for us. We also had our secret weapon, 0:18:33.440 --> 0:18:37.320 which is that gay people are randomly distributed through the population, 0:18:37.400 --> 0:18:40.159 that we are born into straight families, and that was 0:18:40.840 --> 0:18:43.280 we were embedded in the heart of straight America. Even 0:18:43.320 --> 0:18:45.240 though many of us have been rejected by our families 0:18:45.280 --> 0:18:47.679 when we came out and we're exiled from them, we 0:18:47.680 --> 0:18:50.760 were still a part of them. And when people got sick, 0:18:50.800 --> 0:18:54.920 when people were dying, Uh, when lives are online, it 0:18:55.000 --> 0:18:58.000 really like pulled people up short. And some families failed 0:18:58.080 --> 0:19:01.080 their queer kids who are suffering their gay relatives or something. 0:19:01.119 --> 0:19:03.479 But some families came around, and eventually more and more 0:19:03.520 --> 0:19:05.800 of our families came around. I'm old enough to remember 0:19:05.880 --> 0:19:09.040 when p flag parents and friends of lesbians and gays 0:19:09.320 --> 0:19:12.560 would come up the street at the Pride parade. Everybody 0:19:12.560 --> 0:19:15.440 lost their minds. You know, I'm gonna cry talking about 0:19:15.440 --> 0:19:18.359 it even now. Uh, people standing a gay amount of 0:19:18.400 --> 0:19:20.840 lesbians standing on the side of the street watching the 0:19:20.880 --> 0:19:23.639 parade go by. Would see these people, other gays and 0:19:23.760 --> 0:19:26.960 lesbians Marsham Street with their parents, their parents who loved 0:19:27.000 --> 0:19:29.880 them and were willing to love them publicly in March 0:19:29.920 --> 0:19:33.480 and the Pride Parade, and everybody would cry when p 0:19:33.680 --> 0:19:36.240 flag came down the street because almost no one had 0:19:36.240 --> 0:19:38.879 that kind of support from their parents, from their families. 0:19:39.080 --> 0:19:42.639 It was so rare. I bet that was incredibly moving. 0:19:42.680 --> 0:19:44.679 And you know, I just spent the weekend I was 0:19:45.160 --> 0:19:48.879 in the pines in Fire Islands, so as you can imagine, 0:19:48.960 --> 0:19:57.000 I was for this show. So my my husband's brother 0:19:57.200 --> 0:19:59.399 Tom is gay and he's been with his partner Andy 0:19:59.560 --> 0:20:02.360 for funny plus years, so we always go to see 0:20:02.400 --> 0:20:05.080 them for a weekend in the summer at their beautiful 0:20:05.119 --> 0:20:08.520 home and Fire Island. And I was just thinking, as 0:20:08.560 --> 0:20:13.520 I was watching all these gay couples, how much things 0:20:13.520 --> 0:20:17.520 have changed? Dan, And I'm just I think in terms 0:20:17.560 --> 0:20:23.800 of social transformations, if you will, or progress, societal progress, 0:20:24.160 --> 0:20:26.280 I'm sure it doesn't feel that way for a lot 0:20:26.320 --> 0:20:29.399 of gay people. I remember my dad talking who I 0:20:29.440 --> 0:20:33.679 think was slightly homophobic, uh, you know, talking about some 0:20:33.880 --> 0:20:36.919 gay person who worked in his office, and kind of 0:20:36.920 --> 0:20:39.920 in hushed tones, And you know, I think and not 0:20:40.119 --> 0:20:42.679 flattering and not a flattering way. And my father was 0:20:42.680 --> 0:20:45.480 the most fair minded person I know, but this was 0:20:45.560 --> 0:20:48.359 a blind spot for him. But I think culturally it 0:20:48.520 --> 0:20:51.399 was so people were so closeted, and then you go 0:20:51.440 --> 0:20:54.600 to Fire Island and you see everyone just out and 0:20:54.640 --> 0:20:58.920 about and it's just it's just amazing to me how 0:20:59.040 --> 0:21:04.439 much things have changed. Amazing. Yeah, oh absolutely. And you 0:21:04.440 --> 0:21:06.719