1 00:00:05,640 --> 00:00:09,200 Speaker 1: Hi Katie, Hi there, Brian. We should warn listeners that 2 00:00:09,240 --> 00:00:13,880 Speaker 1: our podcast today should probably get an R rating. If 3 00:00:13,960 --> 00:00:16,800 Speaker 1: you have young children in the room, you may want 4 00:00:16,920 --> 00:00:20,520 Speaker 1: to have them listen to something else. Our guest today 5 00:00:21,079 --> 00:00:25,520 Speaker 1: is an expert on relationships and sex. In fact, it's 6 00:00:25,560 --> 00:00:28,440 Speaker 1: something of a living legend on those topics. For over 7 00:00:28,520 --> 00:00:33,000 Speaker 1: twenty five years, Dan Savage has dished out sex advice, 8 00:00:33,080 --> 00:00:37,000 Speaker 1: love advice in his syndicated Savage Love column. He's also 9 00:00:37,040 --> 00:00:42,680 Speaker 1: written several books about his own family and relationships, dance writing, 10 00:00:42,760 --> 00:00:47,960 Speaker 1: and well. Dan himself actually is, by turns withering, empathetic, hilarious, 11 00:00:48,360 --> 00:00:54,320 Speaker 1: brutally honest, a little dirty, and always always fearless. And 12 00:00:54,400 --> 00:00:58,160 Speaker 1: for Dan, the personal is definitely political. He often writes 13 00:00:58,240 --> 00:01:03,520 Speaker 1: about abortion laws, contraception, gay rights, HIV and AIDS, and 14 00:01:03,720 --> 00:01:07,240 Speaker 1: he's no stranger to taking on politicians as well, most 15 00:01:07,280 --> 00:01:10,520 Speaker 1: notably Rick Santorum. And you're gonna have to google that 16 00:01:10,560 --> 00:01:13,200 Speaker 1: one because I really am not going to describe it. 17 00:01:13,360 --> 00:01:17,240 Speaker 1: We covered a lot of ground in this conversation, from 18 00:01:17,319 --> 00:01:21,800 Speaker 1: Dan's childhood to how he became a columnist, his love 19 00:01:21,840 --> 00:01:25,800 Speaker 1: affair with Ann Landers, which is fascinating, his It Gets 20 00:01:25,840 --> 00:01:31,119 Speaker 1: Better campaign, how he feels about Donald Trump and by 21 00:01:31,160 --> 00:01:36,640 Speaker 1: the way, not very kindly, all sorts of things in between. 22 00:01:36,959 --> 00:01:42,240 Speaker 1: So here's our conversation with Dan Savage. With all due 23 00:01:42,240 --> 00:01:44,680 Speaker 1: respect to the Dosac case. Man, I think you're the 24 00:01:44,720 --> 00:01:47,960 Speaker 1: most interesting man in the world. You have done so 25 00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:51,360 Speaker 1: many things. Just reading about you, I think, what hasn't 26 00:01:51,480 --> 00:01:55,200 Speaker 1: Dan Savage done. You've written books, you've hosted podcasts, you've 27 00:01:55,280 --> 00:01:58,400 Speaker 1: led advocacy campaigns. We're going to get into all that 28 00:01:58,480 --> 00:02:00,920 Speaker 1: in a moment, but first we want to talk about 29 00:02:00,960 --> 00:02:04,840 Speaker 1: your long running advice column called Savage Love. You've been 30 00:02:04,840 --> 00:02:08,200 Speaker 1: doing it for twenty five years. When your column first 31 00:02:08,200 --> 00:02:13,120 Speaker 1: came out, it was a very new phenomenon, wasn't it 32 00:02:13,160 --> 00:02:16,560 Speaker 1: a gay man giving frank sexual and relationship advice to 33 00:02:16,600 --> 00:02:19,440 Speaker 1: mostly straight people. Yeah. At first, the idea, you know, 34 00:02:19,480 --> 00:02:21,320 Speaker 1: the concept originally was it just gonna be a joke, 35 00:02:21,360 --> 00:02:22,880 Speaker 1: and I was gonna do it for six months or 36 00:02:22,919 --> 00:02:26,200 Speaker 1: a year, and I was going to treat the straight people, 37 00:02:26,960 --> 00:02:29,600 Speaker 1: uh and straight sex with the same contempt and revulsion 38 00:02:29,680 --> 00:02:32,560 Speaker 1: that hetersexual straight lady advice comments had always treated gay 39 00:02:32,560 --> 00:02:34,920 Speaker 1: people and gay sex with, you know, an landers who 40 00:02:34,960 --> 00:02:38,280 Speaker 1: I loved back in the day, the Playboy advisor. These 41 00:02:38,320 --> 00:02:42,280 Speaker 1: people would occasionally take a gay question and you know, 42 00:02:42,520 --> 00:02:44,600 Speaker 1: hold it with tongs and wrinkled their noses, but then 43 00:02:44,639 --> 00:02:47,160 Speaker 1: give a little advice. Uh. And I thought I should 44 00:02:47,160 --> 00:02:49,000 Speaker 1: do that to straight people and see how they liked it. 45 00:02:49,080 --> 00:02:52,960 Speaker 1: And it turned out that they really liked it. Why 46 00:02:53,000 --> 00:02:57,080 Speaker 1: they liked like, how gross is straight sex kind? It 47 00:02:57,240 --> 00:02:58,840 Speaker 1: was the first year of it was I can't believe 48 00:02:58,840 --> 00:03:00,639 Speaker 1: you would do such a disgusting and your poor mother 49 00:03:00,720 --> 00:03:04,880 Speaker 1: must be heartbroken. Here's some advice that's so funny. And 50 00:03:04,919 --> 00:03:06,640 Speaker 1: it took off. And I think it was because, you know, 51 00:03:06,639 --> 00:03:08,680 Speaker 1: straight people have never been treated this way before. And 52 00:03:08,720 --> 00:03:10,920 Speaker 1: it was, you know, humorous if you were straight, to 53 00:03:10,919 --> 00:03:13,160 Speaker 1: be treated as if you were powerless, which you weren't. 54 00:03:13,720 --> 00:03:16,679 Speaker 1: Um and the advice was I guess good because the 55 00:03:16,760 --> 00:03:19,320 Speaker 1: letters started just pouring in and this kind of joke 56 00:03:19,400 --> 00:03:22,880 Speaker 1: advice column under my feet within the first twelve months 57 00:03:22,919 --> 00:03:25,480 Speaker 1: became an actual advice column. I'm sure the only person 58 00:03:25,520 --> 00:03:28,040 Speaker 1: who could turn you away from being gay was a 59 00:03:28,320 --> 00:03:30,800 Speaker 1: lanterns Now, what up with that? Dan? How did you 60 00:03:30,840 --> 00:03:34,360 Speaker 1: become obsessed with of all people and landers? Instead of 61 00:03:34,400 --> 00:03:36,760 Speaker 1: by the way her sister Abby, I grew up in 62 00:03:36,800 --> 00:03:41,120 Speaker 1: a newspaper house. My grandfather worked for the Chicago Daily 63 00:03:41,160 --> 00:03:44,440 Speaker 1: News in Chicago Star, both now closed unfortunately, And so 64 00:03:44,480 --> 00:03:46,520 Speaker 1: we got all the papers when I was a kid 65 00:03:46,840 --> 00:03:51,560 Speaker 1: living in my grandparents house of my family, um MultiGen household, 66 00:03:51,680 --> 00:03:55,840 Speaker 1: and so really the comics and the advice columns were 67 00:03:55,880 --> 00:03:58,360 Speaker 1: the entry point for young you know, for the kids 68 00:03:58,400 --> 00:04:00,160 Speaker 1: who looked at the newspapers were spread out all over 69 00:04:00,160 --> 00:04:03,040 Speaker 1: the dining room table. Uh. And so I just started 70 00:04:03,040 --> 00:04:05,880 Speaker 1: reading and Landers, and we were liberals and Dems, So 71 00:04:05,920 --> 00:04:08,920 Speaker 1: we got the Suntimes after a while stopped gtting the Tribune, 72 00:04:08,920 --> 00:04:10,600 Speaker 1: which is where Abby was. So I grew up reading 73 00:04:11,080 --> 00:04:14,880 Speaker 1: and who you know, grew and learned over the years 74 00:04:15,200 --> 00:04:18,960 Speaker 1: and you know, changed her position on gay people and 75 00:04:19,040 --> 00:04:21,080 Speaker 1: a right to exist and why we exist. But what 76 00:04:21,200 --> 00:04:23,640 Speaker 1: I was reading in Anne when I was, you know, 77 00:04:23,720 --> 00:04:27,039 Speaker 1: eight eleven twelve wasn't very positive. But that's you know, 78 00:04:27,120 --> 00:04:29,280 Speaker 1: she was over generation and we can't judge her through 79 00:04:29,279 --> 00:04:31,120 Speaker 1: the light of it right this minute. We have to 80 00:04:31,160 --> 00:04:32,600 Speaker 1: look at her in the context of them. And she 81 00:04:32,800 --> 00:04:35,919 Speaker 1: was compassionate in ways that other uh folks in the 82 00:04:35,960 --> 00:04:38,560 Speaker 1: culture at that point weren't. In fact, you bought her 83 00:04:38,640 --> 00:04:41,760 Speaker 1: desk at an auction. Is that right? I did? Uh? 84 00:04:41,920 --> 00:04:44,760 Speaker 1: I got her daughter, Margot Howard's her daughter, one of 85 00:04:44,800 --> 00:04:47,760 Speaker 1: the original dear Prudences. It's late. Uh. So she wrote 86 00:04:47,760 --> 00:04:49,719 Speaker 1: an advice came for many years. And I called her 87 00:04:49,760 --> 00:04:52,480 Speaker 1: when I heard about the auction of a Landers effects 88 00:04:52,480 --> 00:04:54,760 Speaker 1: and got her permission because I didn't want it to 89 00:04:54,800 --> 00:04:57,480 Speaker 1: be spun in the media as if I was being 90 00:04:57,520 --> 00:05:00,400 Speaker 1: somehow disrespectful to the memory of a Landers doing something 91 00:05:00,440 --> 00:05:04,239 Speaker 1: that might upset her daughter. Uh. And got Margot's permission. 92 00:05:04,240 --> 00:05:06,280 Speaker 1: And Margot and I are now friends and we chat 93 00:05:06,320 --> 00:05:08,920 Speaker 1: all the time. And so I write my very dirty, 94 00:05:09,000 --> 00:05:11,640 Speaker 1: very different sex advice column at the same desk. Grand 95 00:05:11,680 --> 00:05:14,600 Speaker 1: Landers wrote her column for forty five years. We want 96 00:05:14,600 --> 00:05:16,919 Speaker 1: to give our listeners a feel for your column and 97 00:05:17,000 --> 00:05:19,480 Speaker 1: your podcast. So let's go over some of the signature 98 00:05:19,560 --> 00:05:23,559 Speaker 1: savage love acronyms and catchphrases. Rapid fire, You ready, I'm ready? 99 00:05:23,560 --> 00:05:26,760 Speaker 1: Are your listeners ready? I don't know, I don't know. 100 00:05:26,920 --> 00:05:30,560 Speaker 1: I hope. So what's the Campsite rule? The Campsite rule 101 00:05:30,640 --> 00:05:34,160 Speaker 1: is that if there's a large age difference or experience 102 00:05:34,240 --> 00:05:37,520 Speaker 1: gap between two people who are hooking up or or 103 00:05:37,560 --> 00:05:40,440 Speaker 1: friends with benefits, or even dating that it is on 104 00:05:40,880 --> 00:05:43,159 Speaker 1: the onus is on the older or more experienced partner 105 00:05:43,240 --> 00:05:46,760 Speaker 1: to leave the younger or less experienced partner in better 106 00:05:46,800 --> 00:05:49,400 Speaker 1: shape than you found them, which is the rule for 107 00:05:49,520 --> 00:05:51,200 Speaker 1: when you camp. You should always leave your campsite in 108 00:05:51,200 --> 00:05:53,400 Speaker 1: better shape than you found it, and we should all 109 00:05:53,440 --> 00:05:56,080 Speaker 1: and it should apply generally like you should always leave 110 00:05:56,640 --> 00:05:59,520 Speaker 1: people that you've dated or been with, hopefully in better 111 00:05:59,520 --> 00:06:01,640 Speaker 1: shape than you found them. But in this context, you 112 00:06:01,680 --> 00:06:04,159 Speaker 1: know the older younger. It means uh, you know, no 113 00:06:04,240 --> 00:06:09,040 Speaker 1: sexually transmitted infections, no one planned pregnancies, no needless pain, 114 00:06:09,560 --> 00:06:12,960 Speaker 1: no promises that you know you can't fulfill uh and 115 00:06:12,960 --> 00:06:15,440 Speaker 1: that you help this person learn and grow while they're 116 00:06:15,440 --> 00:06:17,679 Speaker 1: with you, and you don't leave them in worse shape 117 00:06:17,680 --> 00:06:19,960 Speaker 1: than you found them. The camp say rule, what about 118 00:06:20,040 --> 00:06:22,640 Speaker 1: g G good giving in game? That's what we should 119 00:06:22,640 --> 00:06:25,200 Speaker 1: all be for our sex partners, UM good in bed. 120 00:06:25,360 --> 00:06:27,520 Speaker 1: You know you want to acquire some skills. A human 121 00:06:27,520 --> 00:06:29,359 Speaker 1: means a lot more complicated than a violin, and no 122 00:06:29,360 --> 00:06:31,120 Speaker 1: one can play the violin the first time they pick 123 00:06:31,120 --> 00:06:34,560 Speaker 1: it up. You gotta practice UH giving, which is sometimes 124 00:06:34,560 --> 00:06:38,279 Speaker 1: you give pleasure UH in your indulgent without an expectation 125 00:06:38,279 --> 00:06:40,160 Speaker 1: of an immediate return. That everything doesn't have to be 126 00:06:40,200 --> 00:06:44,480 Speaker 1: instantly and equally reciprocity in the moment that sometimes you give. 127 00:06:44,600 --> 00:06:47,000 Speaker 1: It doesn't have to be good for everybody. Well hopefully 128 00:06:47,000 --> 00:06:49,279 Speaker 1: it's not. You want it to be traumatic for anybody 129 00:06:49,360 --> 00:06:52,239 Speaker 1: or or unpleasant for anybody. But sometimes you are giving 130 00:06:52,839 --> 00:06:55,640 Speaker 1: UM and not getting at that moment and that's okay. 131 00:06:55,920 --> 00:06:59,279 Speaker 1: And game means sort of up for anything within reason. 132 00:07:00,279 --> 00:07:02,360 Speaker 1: That sex should be an adventure that you two are 133 00:07:02,400 --> 00:07:06,200 Speaker 1: on together. UM, and you know it's like good improv. 134 00:07:06,360 --> 00:07:09,559 Speaker 1: You never say no in improv, and you want to, 135 00:07:09,960 --> 00:07:12,520 Speaker 1: you know, be the person for your partner, particularly if 136 00:07:12,520 --> 00:07:16,440 Speaker 1: it's a sexually exclusive relationship, Be the person who makes 137 00:07:16,480 --> 00:07:19,520 Speaker 1: things happen for your partner. Be the person they come to, UH, 138 00:07:20,120 --> 00:07:22,760 Speaker 1: who's going to welcome their fantasies or interests or kinson 139 00:07:23,080 --> 00:07:26,960 Speaker 1: and celebrate them and make that stuff happen dot dot 140 00:07:26,960 --> 00:07:29,440 Speaker 1: dot within reason. You know, being G G G good. 141 00:07:29,480 --> 00:07:31,200 Speaker 1: Giving a game doesn't mean you do anything that your 142 00:07:31,200 --> 00:07:34,240 Speaker 1: partner asks or wants and no, but he gets everything 143 00:07:34,280 --> 00:07:38,200 Speaker 1: they want out of a relationship. UM. And sometimes you pay. 144 00:07:38,360 --> 00:07:40,200 Speaker 1: It's another thing that to call them the price of 145 00:07:40,240 --> 00:07:42,680 Speaker 1: admission is kind of grows out of G G G. 146 00:07:42,920 --> 00:07:44,520 Speaker 1: And the price of admission is, you know, the price 147 00:07:44,560 --> 00:07:46,520 Speaker 1: you pay to be with somebody. You know, if you're 148 00:07:46,720 --> 00:07:50,120 Speaker 1: desperately into sex act X and that's not something that 149 00:07:50,200 --> 00:07:52,920 Speaker 1: your partner will ever do, then the price of admission 150 00:07:52,920 --> 00:07:54,200 Speaker 1: that you pay to be with that person as you 151 00:07:54,200 --> 00:07:56,960 Speaker 1: never get to do that. And what about c posts 152 00:07:58,120 --> 00:08:00,880 Speaker 1: that stands for cheating piece of shit? Uh? And do 153 00:08:00,920 --> 00:08:03,160 Speaker 1: you have a lot of people call you dan or 154 00:08:03,200 --> 00:08:07,120 Speaker 1: write to you and and they are writing about their 155 00:08:07,200 --> 00:08:10,880 Speaker 1: c pos mostly I get letters. When people use the 156 00:08:10,880 --> 00:08:12,360 Speaker 1: acronym in a letter to me, they're using it to 157 00:08:12,400 --> 00:08:15,320 Speaker 1: describe themselves. Really they you know, they say that I 158 00:08:15,400 --> 00:08:17,680 Speaker 1: feel terrible, I'm a CPO s I'm a cheating piece 159 00:08:17,720 --> 00:08:20,840 Speaker 1: of ship. Uh. And talking about non monogamy is not 160 00:08:20,960 --> 00:08:24,120 Speaker 1: to tear down people who value monogamy, who want monogamy, 161 00:08:24,160 --> 00:08:27,160 Speaker 1: who want a monogamous commitment, creating a universe where people 162 00:08:27,200 --> 00:08:30,840 Speaker 1: who don't want monogamy and can't honor a monogamous commitment 163 00:08:31,080 --> 00:08:33,280 Speaker 1: can go make commitments to people who also don't want 164 00:08:33,320 --> 00:08:37,040 Speaker 1: monogamy and don't want a monogamous commitments. That makes people 165 00:08:37,040 --> 00:08:39,840 Speaker 1: who end up in monogamous relationships that makes those monogamous 166 00:08:39,920 --> 00:08:42,600 Speaker 1: relationships safer and stronger, just like not having gay men 167 00:08:42,679 --> 00:08:46,400 Speaker 1: mary straight women makes marriage stronger. Not having people who 168 00:08:46,440 --> 00:08:50,400 Speaker 1: can't do monogamy making commitments to people who demand monogamy 169 00:08:50,600 --> 00:08:53,640 Speaker 1: makes those monogamous commitments that are ultimately made stronger if 170 00:08:53,679 --> 00:08:58,240 Speaker 1: the non monogamous and monogamous sort themselves. You're an early 171 00:08:58,320 --> 00:09:02,280 Speaker 1: podcast adopter, and I'm curious, what is the podcast offer 172 00:09:02,320 --> 00:09:04,839 Speaker 1: you that the column doesn't. Uh, you can really get 173 00:09:04,880 --> 00:09:09,280 Speaker 1: into the nuance in a podcast, the columns um and 174 00:09:09,320 --> 00:09:12,120 Speaker 1: you really have to boil everything down to the nut. 175 00:09:12,280 --> 00:09:16,000 Speaker 1: And on a podcast you can. You can digress, and 176 00:09:16,080 --> 00:09:18,120 Speaker 1: I can get people on the phone and instead of 177 00:09:18,120 --> 00:09:19,880 Speaker 1: it just being here's the letter, here's my response, we 178 00:09:19,920 --> 00:09:23,040 Speaker 1: can have a conversation. I can bring in guest experts 179 00:09:23,080 --> 00:09:25,640 Speaker 1: and and interview them at great length about an issue 180 00:09:25,720 --> 00:09:29,480 Speaker 1: or a problem. Um. It just allows for more. Although now, 181 00:09:29,520 --> 00:09:32,160 Speaker 1: because my podcast has been around for so long, when 182 00:09:32,160 --> 00:09:34,120 Speaker 1: I was podcasting so early, people like, oh my god, 183 00:09:34,400 --> 00:09:36,679 Speaker 1: you were an early adopter of this new format. You 184 00:09:36,760 --> 00:09:39,679 Speaker 1: must be a you know, a genius and you had 185 00:09:39,679 --> 00:09:41,360 Speaker 1: such foresight. And it's like no, no, no, no, there 186 00:09:41,360 --> 00:09:43,320 Speaker 1: were I call them the tech savvy at risk youth. 187 00:09:43,880 --> 00:09:46,200 Speaker 1: There were people that I worked with who are young 188 00:09:46,400 --> 00:09:49,280 Speaker 1: and tech savvy, who are like you were going to 189 00:09:49,360 --> 00:09:51,560 Speaker 1: start doing this podcast whether you like it or not, 190 00:09:51,600 --> 00:09:54,280 Speaker 1: and they kind of forced me to do it. I 191 00:09:54,440 --> 00:09:58,040 Speaker 1: was very resistant. What are most of the calls about? 192 00:09:59,720 --> 00:10:02,280 Speaker 1: Said situational ethics. You know, twenty six years ago when 193 00:10:02,320 --> 00:10:05,080 Speaker 1: I started writing Savage Love, half the questions were, you know, 194 00:10:05,200 --> 00:10:08,880 Speaker 1: what's about plug? Or where's the swingers club in my area? 195 00:10:09,160 --> 00:10:11,480 Speaker 1: Two words I never thought i'd hear on this bad 196 00:10:11,559 --> 00:10:18,040 Speaker 1: gast and now and this may be helpful to you, Katie. Now, 197 00:10:18,080 --> 00:10:19,720 Speaker 1: butt Plug has a wiki page, so you don't have 198 00:10:19,720 --> 00:10:21,320 Speaker 1: to write into me to ask what it is after 199 00:10:21,320 --> 00:10:24,400 Speaker 1: you overheard someone talking about one of the bus and 200 00:10:24,440 --> 00:10:26,360 Speaker 1: swingers clubs all have their own website, so you don't 201 00:10:26,400 --> 00:10:28,920 Speaker 1: need sort of specialized magazines with you know, referrals to 202 00:10:28,960 --> 00:10:31,240 Speaker 1: p O boxes to find a swing club and Dallas, 203 00:10:31,280 --> 00:10:33,880 Speaker 1: just google Dallas and swingers clubs and they pop right up. 204 00:10:34,440 --> 00:10:36,280 Speaker 1: So all the questions I get now with the podcast 205 00:10:36,360 --> 00:10:38,920 Speaker 1: and the column are I did this, they did that, 206 00:10:39,120 --> 00:10:41,360 Speaker 1: I'm mad about this, they're mad about that. Who's right, 207 00:10:41,360 --> 00:10:44,480 Speaker 1: who's wrong? And you have to kind of way in 208 00:10:45,240 --> 00:10:48,319 Speaker 1: on these situational ethics, that the situation of ethics of 209 00:10:48,400 --> 00:10:50,840 Speaker 1: this problem in this conflict. And it's a lot harder 210 00:10:50,880 --> 00:10:54,319 Speaker 1: now to write an advice column than it used to 211 00:10:54,400 --> 00:10:56,120 Speaker 1: be because you don't get I used to call them 212 00:10:56,120 --> 00:10:58,720 Speaker 1: definitions and referrals. I don't get defined this, what is this? 213 00:10:59,000 --> 00:11:00,800 Speaker 1: And I don't get referral q is anymore because the 214 00:11:00,840 --> 00:11:04,760 Speaker 1: Internet does that. All I get are this is what happened. 215 00:11:05,120 --> 00:11:08,360 Speaker 1: We need a ruling from Solomon about how we're going 216 00:11:08,400 --> 00:11:10,280 Speaker 1: to cut this baby in half or whether we should. 217 00:11:10,960 --> 00:11:12,880 Speaker 1: When when did you realize you were good at giving 218 00:11:12,920 --> 00:11:14,480 Speaker 1: people advice? I mean you were a little bit of 219 00:11:14,520 --> 00:11:17,240 Speaker 1: a of an outcast in in high school. You were 220 00:11:17,280 --> 00:11:20,679 Speaker 1: the only out gay person in your class. As I 221 00:11:20,760 --> 00:11:23,440 Speaker 1: understand it, and so did you did you sort of 222 00:11:23,440 --> 00:11:26,440 Speaker 1: always feel a little bit separated from the back. It's 223 00:11:26,480 --> 00:11:29,840 Speaker 1: just the way. Women, I think think more about gender 224 00:11:30,360 --> 00:11:34,360 Speaker 1: because it impacts them more severely, you know, gender based discrimination, 225 00:11:34,840 --> 00:11:36,560 Speaker 1: and people of color think more about race. I think 226 00:11:36,559 --> 00:11:38,480 Speaker 1: when you're gay, you think more about sex because it's 227 00:11:38,480 --> 00:11:41,200 Speaker 1: what makes you different. It sets you apart and complicates 228 00:11:41,200 --> 00:11:43,240 Speaker 1: your life, and you have to be a little bit 229 00:11:43,280 --> 00:11:46,120 Speaker 1: more thoughtful about it, and I realized early in life, 230 00:11:46,120 --> 00:11:48,200 Speaker 1: and I was rare for gay men of my generation. 231 00:11:48,240 --> 00:11:50,960 Speaker 1: I'm fifty years old. It was rare for kids to 232 00:11:50,960 --> 00:11:53,720 Speaker 1: be coming out in high school who are my age. 233 00:11:53,720 --> 00:11:55,880 Speaker 1: But I did come out in high school and instantly 234 00:11:55,880 --> 00:11:58,360 Speaker 1: became kind of the go to guy for my straight 235 00:11:58,400 --> 00:12:02,560 Speaker 1: friends who had relationship problems or sex questions, UM, because 236 00:12:02,559 --> 00:12:04,960 Speaker 1: I think they just intuitive that I was thinking more 237 00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:08,080 Speaker 1: about these things than they were, because I had to 238 00:12:08,520 --> 00:12:11,719 Speaker 1: think more about these things. Uh. And I think that's 239 00:12:11,720 --> 00:12:13,319 Speaker 1: true for a lot of gay people. We talked a 240 00:12:13,360 --> 00:12:17,240 Speaker 1: lot of gay men, lesbians, uh, even very young uh 241 00:12:17,240 --> 00:12:19,559 Speaker 1: and recently out or out in college, and they'll tell 242 00:12:19,600 --> 00:12:22,240 Speaker 1: you that they're the person that their friends confide in 243 00:12:22,280 --> 00:12:25,760 Speaker 1: about their sex and relationship problems. I think because you know, 244 00:12:25,800 --> 00:12:28,560 Speaker 1: they figure, you gave yourself permission not to be gay, 245 00:12:28,600 --> 00:12:32,280 Speaker 1: but to be out, and maybe you'll give them permission 246 00:12:32,320 --> 00:12:35,080 Speaker 1: to be whoever they actually are and help them let 247 00:12:35,160 --> 00:12:38,760 Speaker 1: go of normal, which plagues a lot of people. You know. 248 00:12:38,800 --> 00:12:40,959 Speaker 1: I was. I was struck that you came of age 249 00:12:41,040 --> 00:12:45,280 Speaker 1: as a gay guy in a conservative Catholic household and 250 00:12:45,480 --> 00:12:48,679 Speaker 1: during the height or the depths of the AIDS epidemics, 251 00:12:48,760 --> 00:12:53,280 Speaker 1: I'm just curious how those two experiences shaped the sort 252 00:12:53,280 --> 00:12:56,800 Speaker 1: of journalist and columnist you later became. Well, I got 253 00:12:56,800 --> 00:13:01,040 Speaker 1: a Catholic education, educated by Jesuits, and you know, my 254 00:13:01,120 --> 00:13:05,480 Speaker 1: parents were evangelical Catholics before that was a hip thing 255 00:13:05,520 --> 00:13:09,640 Speaker 1: to be, which seems to be now. Um. And my 256 00:13:09,679 --> 00:13:12,720 Speaker 1: mother would joke later, you know, after she came around 257 00:13:12,760 --> 00:13:14,760 Speaker 1: on the gay thing, which she did pretty quickly after 258 00:13:14,800 --> 00:13:18,000 Speaker 1: I came out, that the values that they had imparted 259 00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:20,720 Speaker 1: to us, part of sort of their interpretation of the 260 00:13:20,720 --> 00:13:22,599 Speaker 1: Catholic tradition was one of the reasons that I was 261 00:13:22,640 --> 00:13:24,600 Speaker 1: out to them. And so it kind of blew back 262 00:13:25,040 --> 00:13:28,400 Speaker 1: and bit them on the ass because they were very 263 00:13:28,480 --> 00:13:31,240 Speaker 1: much about, you know, the importance of being honest and 264 00:13:31,600 --> 00:13:35,360 Speaker 1: loving the people in your life and being truthful, uh, 265 00:13:35,400 --> 00:13:38,240 Speaker 1: and not being deceitful. And yet I felt myself, you know, 266 00:13:38,240 --> 00:13:40,520 Speaker 1: when I was young and Catholic and I thought about 267 00:13:40,520 --> 00:13:42,280 Speaker 1: being a priest, I thought about, I could never come out. 268 00:13:42,280 --> 00:13:45,439 Speaker 1: It would kill my parents. Um. I thought about, you know, 269 00:13:45,480 --> 00:13:47,520 Speaker 1: I'll need to find a woman that I can lie 270 00:13:47,559 --> 00:13:50,480 Speaker 1: to for fifty years and marry her. And then that 271 00:13:50,559 --> 00:13:52,319 Speaker 1: was just so in conflict with what I had been 272 00:13:52,360 --> 00:13:57,320 Speaker 1: taught about right and wrong uh, in Sunday School, at 273 00:13:57,320 --> 00:14:00,240 Speaker 1: my Catholic grade school, at my Catholic high school, to 274 00:14:00,240 --> 00:14:02,480 Speaker 1: to lie to someone all their life like that, to 275 00:14:02,600 --> 00:14:06,360 Speaker 1: mislead someone, and it just forced me to to be out. 276 00:14:06,440 --> 00:14:08,800 Speaker 1: It just felt like it grew out of my sort 277 00:14:08,840 --> 00:14:13,280 Speaker 1: of education. Even though my faith didn't survive my coming out. 278 00:14:13,320 --> 00:14:15,559 Speaker 1: And I actually came out before the AIDS epidemic. I 279 00:14:15,640 --> 00:14:19,800 Speaker 1: came out in and then uh into that buzz saw 280 00:14:20,840 --> 00:14:24,000 Speaker 1: uh and watched a lot of my friends die in 281 00:14:24,080 --> 00:14:29,680 Speaker 1: their mid twenties and early thirties. And that was really rough. 282 00:14:29,920 --> 00:14:31,880 Speaker 1: And there was you know, there were moments there at 283 00:14:31,880 --> 00:14:33,880 Speaker 1: the beginning of the HIV AIDS epidemic where I watched 284 00:14:33,920 --> 00:14:36,520 Speaker 1: people that I knew to be gay go back in 285 00:14:36,560 --> 00:14:40,680 Speaker 1: the closet um or or renounced their homosexuality and who 286 00:14:40,680 --> 00:14:46,000 Speaker 1: were already infected and then died anyway, Uh, and it it, 287 00:14:46,240 --> 00:14:49,520 Speaker 1: you know, the AIDS epidemic forced us to start telling 288 00:14:49,560 --> 00:14:53,200 Speaker 1: the truth. Um. People were outed because they you know, 289 00:14:53,280 --> 00:14:58,680 Speaker 1: suddenly had Carposi sarcoma UM. And it also forced us 290 00:14:58,720 --> 00:15:02,440 Speaker 1: to tell the truth about about how we were having sex. 291 00:15:02,480 --> 00:15:05,680 Speaker 1: You know, it used to be you know before HIV AIDS, 292 00:15:05,720 --> 00:15:07,720 Speaker 1: there was the sex that everybody agreed that everybody ought 293 00:15:07,760 --> 00:15:09,400 Speaker 1: to be having, even though everybody kind of knew that 294 00:15:09,400 --> 00:15:12,040 Speaker 1: everybody wasn't having necessarily that kind of sex. And what 295 00:15:12,200 --> 00:15:14,520 Speaker 1: AIDS force was a conversation about the sex people were 296 00:15:14,560 --> 00:15:17,880 Speaker 1: actually having, not the sex that we all agreed people 297 00:15:17,920 --> 00:15:20,200 Speaker 1: ought to have, which was the kind of sex that 298 00:15:20,320 --> 00:15:23,040 Speaker 1: most advice columnists specialized in, like what you ought to 299 00:15:23,080 --> 00:15:25,360 Speaker 1: be doing? And what was different about savage love. When 300 00:15:25,360 --> 00:15:27,400 Speaker 1: I started, it really did grow out of my experience 301 00:15:27,400 --> 00:15:30,560 Speaker 1: in the HIV AIDS epidemic um the crisis, the worst 302 00:15:30,640 --> 00:15:33,520 Speaker 1: years of it was let's talk about what we're actually doing, 303 00:15:33,640 --> 00:15:36,280 Speaker 1: because that's where the risk comes in. As as I'm 304 00:15:36,320 --> 00:15:39,560 Speaker 1: listening to Dan, I'm thinking how ironic it is that 305 00:15:39,680 --> 00:15:45,560 Speaker 1: in some ways the AIDS epidemic accelerated the acceptance and 306 00:15:45,720 --> 00:15:50,160 Speaker 1: tolerance in it, certainly in some quarters of gay people 307 00:15:50,200 --> 00:15:55,080 Speaker 1: in general. Absolutely, you know, before the AIDS epidemic, we 308 00:15:55,080 --> 00:15:57,000 Speaker 1: were just you know, gay people started coming out on 309 00:15:57,120 --> 00:16:01,360 Speaker 1: mass after the Stonewall riots in Mine and there was 310 00:16:01,400 --> 00:16:06,560 Speaker 1: this kind of you know, bakan knowledge, youthful, exuberant adolescence 311 00:16:07,120 --> 00:16:09,400 Speaker 1: of the movement where people were just so thrilled to 312 00:16:09,440 --> 00:16:12,320 Speaker 1: be out and open and able to live openly, love openly, 313 00:16:12,360 --> 00:16:15,360 Speaker 1: and it was just kind of a party. And that 314 00:16:15,400 --> 00:16:17,280 Speaker 1: was the you know, the hedonism that people like Jerry 315 00:16:17,280 --> 00:16:21,160 Speaker 1: Fallwell pointed to um and condemned. And then the AIDS 316 00:16:21,200 --> 00:16:24,440 Speaker 1: epidemics slammed into the community and you suddenly saw that, 317 00:16:24,880 --> 00:16:27,720 Speaker 1: you know, we suffered and died, and we suffered and 318 00:16:27,760 --> 00:16:30,800 Speaker 1: died and loved and took care of each other at 319 00:16:30,840 --> 00:16:34,160 Speaker 1: a time when even our own families refused to take 320 00:16:34,160 --> 00:16:37,400 Speaker 1: care of us. Plus the activism, I think that that 321 00:16:37,480 --> 00:16:40,760 Speaker 1: grew out of the AIDS epidemic. I think made a 322 00:16:40,800 --> 00:16:45,960 Speaker 1: lot more people aware and exposed to the fact that 323 00:16:46,160 --> 00:16:48,280 Speaker 1: there were a lot of gay people in the world, right, 324 00:16:48,600 --> 00:16:53,680 Speaker 1: and it put put them front and center in some ways, 325 00:16:53,760 --> 00:16:59,120 Speaker 1: obviously under terrible circumstances, but gave them much greater attention. 326 00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:02,600 Speaker 1: And if people don't have awareness, obviously it's hard for 327 00:17:02,640 --> 00:17:06,840 Speaker 1: them to go from awareness to acceptance. Right. It was 328 00:17:07,000 --> 00:17:10,040 Speaker 1: a terrible circumstance in some ways. To borrow a phrase, 329 00:17:10,119 --> 00:17:13,359 Speaker 1: also our finest hour, because we didn't collapse. You know, 330 00:17:13,880 --> 00:17:15,919 Speaker 1: people forget what was being said that I remember it 331 00:17:15,920 --> 00:17:18,560 Speaker 1: all very distinctly, you know, William F. Buckley saying that 332 00:17:18,600 --> 00:17:20,760 Speaker 1: gay men should be tattooed on the arm and the buttocks. 333 00:17:21,720 --> 00:17:25,800 Speaker 1: You had people talking about mass quarantining of openly gay 334 00:17:25,840 --> 00:17:30,400 Speaker 1: people on islands. Um Pat Buchanan floated that in columns 335 00:17:30,440 --> 00:17:33,800 Speaker 1: that ran in the Washington Post. It was a perilous moment, 336 00:17:33,800 --> 00:17:36,640 Speaker 1: and we did feel like everything, that what little visibility 337 00:17:36,680 --> 00:17:38,760 Speaker 1: and little security that we enjoyed, was going to be 338 00:17:39,280 --> 00:17:41,800 Speaker 1: ripped away from us. And instead of, uh, you know, 339 00:17:41,840 --> 00:17:43,360 Speaker 1: I mentioned, you know, a few people I knew who 340 00:17:43,359 --> 00:17:45,880 Speaker 1: went back into the closet, that's not the reaction that uh, 341 00:17:45,920 --> 00:17:48,000 Speaker 1: the overwhelming majority of gay people had. People who were 342 00:17:48,080 --> 00:17:50,320 Speaker 1: not out yet came out and came out fighting, and 343 00:17:50,359 --> 00:17:52,800 Speaker 1: people who are already out refused to see an inch 344 00:17:52,880 --> 00:17:55,480 Speaker 1: of the ground that we had secured for ourselves. And 345 00:17:55,520 --> 00:17:58,240 Speaker 1: it really was a war, and it was a war 346 00:17:58,320 --> 00:18:02,159 Speaker 1: that we won. It's interesting Jerry Folwell, whom you mentioned 347 00:18:02,160 --> 00:18:05,520 Speaker 1: earlier and other key figures on the religious right, basically 348 00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:09,080 Speaker 1: said this was punishment for the sin of being gay. 349 00:18:09,119 --> 00:18:11,320 Speaker 1: Why do you think you were able to win that 350 00:18:11,440 --> 00:18:14,960 Speaker 1: battle in the public consciousness against all of these figures 351 00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:18,480 Speaker 1: who you know, had a lot more history and maybe 352 00:18:18,520 --> 00:18:23,879 Speaker 1: credibility among millions of Americans than sort of unknown gay activists, 353 00:18:23,920 --> 00:18:27,959 Speaker 1: maybe because it was such a disgusting, despicable comment and observation, 354 00:18:28,080 --> 00:18:30,720 Speaker 1: Maybe that they had that going for Yeah, we did 355 00:18:30,760 --> 00:18:33,399 Speaker 1: have that going for us. We also had our secret weapon, 356 00:18:33,440 --> 00:18:37,320 Speaker 1: which is that gay people are randomly distributed through the population, 357 00:18:37,400 --> 00:18:40,159 Speaker 1: that we are born into straight families, and that was 358 00:18:40,840 --> 00:18:43,280 Speaker 1: we were embedded in the heart of straight America. Even 359 00:18:43,320 --> 00:18:45,240 Speaker 1: though many of us have been rejected by our families 360 00:18:45,280 --> 00:18:47,679 Speaker 1: when we came out and we're exiled from them, we 361 00:18:47,680 --> 00:18:50,760 Speaker 1: were still a part of them. And when people got sick, 362 00:18:50,800 --> 00:18:54,920 Speaker 1: when people were dying, Uh, when lives are online, it 363 00:18:55,000 --> 00:18:58,000 Speaker 1: really like pulled people up short. And some families failed 364 00:18:58,080 --> 00:19:01,080 Speaker 1: their queer kids who are suffering their gay relatives or something. 365 00:19:01,119 --> 00:19:03,479 Speaker 1: But some families came around, and eventually more and more 366 00:19:03,520 --> 00:19:05,800 Speaker 1: of our families came around. I'm old enough to remember 367 00:19:05,880 --> 00:19:09,040 Speaker 1: when p flag parents and friends of lesbians and gays 368 00:19:09,320 --> 00:19:12,560 Speaker 1: would come up the street at the Pride parade. Everybody 369 00:19:12,560 --> 00:19:15,440 Speaker 1: lost their minds. You know, I'm gonna cry talking about 370 00:19:15,440 --> 00:19:18,359 Speaker 1: it even now. Uh, people standing a gay amount of 371 00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:20,840 Speaker 1: lesbians standing on the side of the street watching the 372 00:19:20,880 --> 00:19:23,639 Speaker 1: parade go by. Would see these people, other gays and 373 00:19:23,760 --> 00:19:26,960 Speaker 1: lesbians Marsham Street with their parents, their parents who loved 374 00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:29,880 Speaker 1: them and were willing to love them publicly in March 375 00:19:29,920 --> 00:19:33,480 Speaker 1: and the Pride Parade, and everybody would cry when p 376 00:19:33,680 --> 00:19:36,240 Speaker 1: flag came down the street because almost no one had 377 00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:38,879 Speaker 1: that kind of support from their parents, from their families. 378 00:19:39,080 --> 00:19:42,639 Speaker 1: It was so rare. I bet that was incredibly moving. 379 00:19:42,680 --> 00:19:44,679 Speaker 1: And you know, I just spent the weekend I was 380 00:19:45,160 --> 00:19:48,879 Speaker 1: in the pines in Fire Islands, so as you can imagine, 381 00:19:48,960 --> 00:19:57,000 Speaker 1: I was for this show. So my my husband's brother 382 00:19:57,200 --> 00:19:59,399 Speaker 1: Tom is gay and he's been with his partner Andy 383 00:19:59,560 --> 00:20:02,360 Speaker 1: for funny plus years, so we always go to see 384 00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:05,080 Speaker 1: them for a weekend in the summer at their beautiful 385 00:20:05,119 --> 00:20:08,520 Speaker 1: home and Fire Island. And I was just thinking, as 386 00:20:08,560 --> 00:20:13,520 Speaker 1: I was watching all these gay couples, how much things 387 00:20:13,520 --> 00:20:17,520 Speaker 1: have changed? Dan, And I'm just I think in terms 388 00:20:17,560 --> 00:20:23,800 Speaker 1: of social transformations, if you will, or progress, societal progress, 389 00:20:24,160 --> 00:20:26,280 Speaker 1: I'm sure it doesn't feel that way for a lot 390 00:20:26,320 --> 00:20:29,399 Speaker 1: of gay people. I remember my dad talking who I 391 00:20:29,440 --> 00:20:33,679 Speaker 1: think was slightly homophobic, uh, you know, talking about some 392 00:20:33,880 --> 00:20:36,919 Speaker 1: gay person who worked in his office, and kind of 393 00:20:36,920 --> 00:20:39,920 Speaker 1: in hushed tones, And you know, I think and not 394 00:20:40,119 --> 00:20:42,679 Speaker 1: flattering and not a flattering way. And my father was 395 00:20:42,680 --> 00:20:45,480 Speaker 1: the most fair minded person I know, but this was 396 00:20:45,560 --> 00:20:48,359 Speaker 1: a blind spot for him. But I think culturally it 397 00:20:48,520 --> 00:20:51,399 Speaker 1: was so people were so closeted, and then you go 398 00:20:51,440 --> 00:20:54,600 Speaker 1: to Fire Island and you see everyone just out and 399 00:20:54,640 --> 00:20:58,920 Speaker 1: about and it's just it's just amazing to me how 400 00:20:59,040 --> 00:21:04,439 Speaker 1: much things have changed. Amazing. Yeah, oh absolutely. And you 401 00:21:04,440 --> 00:21:06,719 Speaker 1: know the P flag point P flag with marcht down 402 00:21:06,720 --> 00:21:08,920 Speaker 1: the street. Thirty four years ago everyone would sob Now 403 00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:11,040 Speaker 1: P flag marches down streets, priparate. We're all happy to 404 00:21:11,040 --> 00:21:13,960 Speaker 1: see P flag, But most of us at the parade, 405 00:21:13,960 --> 00:21:15,639 Speaker 1: most of the people there have families that love and 406 00:21:15,680 --> 00:21:18,080 Speaker 1: support them now, so it's not as impact. It's not 407 00:21:18,119 --> 00:21:20,760 Speaker 1: as emotionally devastating to see people with parents who love them, 408 00:21:20,760 --> 00:21:23,760 Speaker 1: because you probably have parents who love you, uh now, 409 00:21:23,800 --> 00:21:26,080 Speaker 1: and there's there has been such a change, you know. 410 00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:28,760 Speaker 1: I talk frequently about the right wing myth and the 411 00:21:28,840 --> 00:21:30,560 Speaker 1: left wing myth when it comes to progress, and the 412 00:21:30,600 --> 00:21:33,040 Speaker 1: right wing myth is we can risk no progress if 413 00:21:33,080 --> 00:21:35,560 Speaker 1: we give women the vote. Society will collapse, family will 414 00:21:35,560 --> 00:21:38,640 Speaker 1: fall apart if we uh you know, pass the Civil 415 00:21:38,760 --> 00:21:40,679 Speaker 1: Rights Act or the Voting Rights Act. Everything's gonna end. 416 00:21:40,720 --> 00:21:42,439 Speaker 1: If we'd let gay people serve opening in the military, 417 00:21:42,440 --> 00:21:44,199 Speaker 1: the military is going to collapse. If we let get 418 00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:47,080 Speaker 1: people get married, the family is going to collapse. It's always, 419 00:21:47,280 --> 00:21:49,840 Speaker 1: you know, do this, there will be a catastrohe And 420 00:21:49,840 --> 00:21:52,160 Speaker 1: that's the right wing myth, and they're proven wrong again 421 00:21:52,200 --> 00:21:55,320 Speaker 1: and again and again and again. There their dire predictions 422 00:21:55,359 --> 00:21:57,440 Speaker 1: never come to pass. The left wing myth is there's 423 00:21:57,480 --> 00:22:00,719 Speaker 1: been no progress, that we're as racist, as homophobic, as 424 00:22:00,760 --> 00:22:04,560 Speaker 1: anti semitic, as transphobic a culture as we have ever been, 425 00:22:04,680 --> 00:22:09,200 Speaker 1: and that's demonstrably false. We are not free from racism 426 00:22:09,359 --> 00:22:13,280 Speaker 1: or sexism, or homophobia, or transphobia or anti semitism, but 427 00:22:13,320 --> 00:22:15,920 Speaker 1: we've made tremendous progress. And on the left we shouldn't. 428 00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:20,080 Speaker 1: We shouldn't propagate a myth. It's in some ways as 429 00:22:20,119 --> 00:22:21,840 Speaker 1: damaging as that right wing myth that we can risk 430 00:22:21,880 --> 00:22:23,960 Speaker 1: no progress because we want to be able to point 431 00:22:23,960 --> 00:22:27,120 Speaker 1: to the progress we've made and be able to say, look, 432 00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:29,840 Speaker 1: we've done this, We've taken all of these steps, and 433 00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:32,159 Speaker 1: it hasn't just you know, the sky hasn't fallen and 434 00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:36,560 Speaker 1: the country hasn't fallen, and anything we've gotten better and stronger, uh, 435 00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:40,639 Speaker 1: and more just as a society for having taken these steps. 436 00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:42,919 Speaker 1: The left should always be pointing to the progress that 437 00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:45,800 Speaker 1: we've made to argue for more progress, to refute the 438 00:22:45,880 --> 00:22:49,359 Speaker 1: right wing myth that we can risk no progress. And 439 00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:52,880 Speaker 1: what about the nature versus nurture argument? You know, it's 440 00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:55,800 Speaker 1: funny because I thought it was pretty established that it 441 00:22:56,040 --> 00:22:59,680 Speaker 1: was nature that people are born gay. But then other 442 00:22:59,720 --> 00:23:02,760 Speaker 1: p bull seem to come out and say, well, it 443 00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:05,520 Speaker 1: is a choice. I think Cynthia Nixon not that long ago, 444 00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:10,000 Speaker 1: didn't she create some controversy about that and it was 445 00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:13,359 Speaker 1: a choice. Yeah, And I'm just curious about your take 446 00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:16,240 Speaker 1: on that. Well, it shouldn't matter. The people who say 447 00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:19,240 Speaker 1: it's a choice are arguing that gay people, queer people 448 00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:21,320 Speaker 1: shouldn't have any civil rights, be allowed to marry, be 449 00:23:21,359 --> 00:23:25,000 Speaker 1: allowed to adopt, because they don't have to exist. Um, well, 450 00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:28,359 Speaker 1: Mormons don't have to exist. Faith is a choice. That's 451 00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:31,359 Speaker 1: why there are street preachers and proselytizers and Jehovah's witnesses 452 00:23:31,840 --> 00:23:34,040 Speaker 1: knocking on my door this morning. Religion is a choice. 453 00:23:34,040 --> 00:23:37,359 Speaker 1: It's also a protected class, as it should be. Um, 454 00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:39,480 Speaker 1: and you're not allowed to discriminate against someone based on 455 00:23:39,680 --> 00:23:43,240 Speaker 1: their chosen faith. So there's just this dishonesty at the 456 00:23:43,240 --> 00:23:45,600 Speaker 1: heart of the way. So many people of faith, it's 457 00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:48,520 Speaker 1: usually religious people who make this choice argument about sexual orientation. 458 00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:50,840 Speaker 1: They're saying that because this thing is a choice, you 459 00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:55,879 Speaker 1: deserve no protections. Um. I experienced my homosexuality as not 460 00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:59,600 Speaker 1: a choice at all. Uh. It shouldn't matter whether it 461 00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:02,400 Speaker 1: was a voice or not. But certainly for me felt born. 462 00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:05,399 Speaker 1: And there is a body of sort of evidence. No, 463 00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:07,239 Speaker 1: there's no one gay gene out there, but there are 464 00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:10,320 Speaker 1: genetic factors at play. You know. The most famous thing 465 00:24:10,359 --> 00:24:12,880 Speaker 1: is the twins studies that show that if an identical 466 00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:16,080 Speaker 1: twin is gay, Uh, the other twin is likelier to 467 00:24:16,119 --> 00:24:18,880 Speaker 1: be gay, but not automatically gay. So that there are 468 00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:22,440 Speaker 1: it seemed to be a multicausal thing. But the way, 469 00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:25,560 Speaker 1: you know, most gay people don't, you know, we dread 470 00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:28,600 Speaker 1: being gay. When I was thirteen years old and realizing 471 00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:31,560 Speaker 1: that I was gay, it was a catastrophe. It wasn't 472 00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:34,919 Speaker 1: a choice I made to destroy my life to you know, 473 00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:37,800 Speaker 1: up end my relationship with my parents, to estrange myself 474 00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:39,560 Speaker 1: from my siblings and the faith that I had been 475 00:24:39,640 --> 00:24:43,400 Speaker 1: raised in to live every day in terror of being 476 00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:46,920 Speaker 1: caught or found out or scrutinized in such a way 477 00:24:46,920 --> 00:24:49,919 Speaker 1: that I might be outed, and then to police my 478 00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:52,040 Speaker 1: behavior and try to act straight even had sex with 479 00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:55,600 Speaker 1: girls like I desperately wanted to be straight. I desperately 480 00:24:55,600 --> 00:24:57,439 Speaker 1: wanted to be anything other than gay. That was not 481 00:24:57,520 --> 00:25:02,560 Speaker 1: a choice I made to piss off my dad, which 482 00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:04,760 Speaker 1: is the argument that a lot of people who don't 483 00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:06,760 Speaker 1: know what they're talking about when they talk about homosexuality 484 00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:09,399 Speaker 1: like to make. Can I say something about Jerry Fallwell, 485 00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:12,280 Speaker 1: who came up a couple of times, Um my dad, 486 00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:15,520 Speaker 1: Uh was for Anita Bryant was for Jerry Follows, kind 487 00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:18,720 Speaker 1: of a conservative guy. He said things that were anti 488 00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:20,359 Speaker 1: gay in front of me when I was ten and 489 00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:22,800 Speaker 1: eight that I remembered that just pierced me, like kind 490 00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:26,679 Speaker 1: of knew then. And the argument that the Fallwells and 491 00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:29,879 Speaker 1: Bryan's used to make was that, Uh, gay people were 492 00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:32,400 Speaker 1: a threat to the family because we didn't get married, 493 00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:34,880 Speaker 1: because we didn't have children, because we didn't settle down. 494 00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:37,560 Speaker 1: We lived for the moment and for pleasure and the 495 00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:40,240 Speaker 1: next do orgasm, and that was why we were terrible. 496 00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:42,960 Speaker 1: Well that's the only way that we were allowed to live. 497 00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:46,160 Speaker 1: We couldn't get married, we couldn't have children. Then once 498 00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:48,480 Speaker 1: gay people were freer, there were gay people who wanted 499 00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:50,040 Speaker 1: to get married. There were gay people who wanted to 500 00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:53,120 Speaker 1: have children and and did marry and did have children 501 00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:55,720 Speaker 1: and do and continue to just as there are straight 502 00:25:55,720 --> 00:25:57,119 Speaker 1: people who don't want to get married, don't want to 503 00:25:57,119 --> 00:25:59,600 Speaker 1: have kids, and don't that. There was nothing gay about 504 00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:03,560 Speaker 1: the gay lifestyle that fall well condemned, and nothing straight 505 00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:07,399 Speaker 1: about the straight lifestyle. Uh. In the end, there was 506 00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:09,720 Speaker 1: anything straight about it. And what we see now is 507 00:26:09,760 --> 00:26:13,880 Speaker 1: kind of this great cross pollnization where you know, gay 508 00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:16,800 Speaker 1: people live as you know, the quote unquote gay lifestyle 509 00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:19,840 Speaker 1: until they settled down and then live the straight lifestyle, 510 00:26:20,359 --> 00:26:22,680 Speaker 1: and straight people kind of do the same. Like straight 511 00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:25,800 Speaker 1: people borrowed a lot from gay culture and just renamed it. Uh. 512 00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:28,960 Speaker 1: You know, we used to can I use a swear word? Yeah, 513 00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:31,440 Speaker 1: We used to talk about funck buddies, and now straight 514 00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:35,359 Speaker 1: people talk about friends with benefits. We used to talk 515 00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:38,640 Speaker 1: about tricking, and then straight people called that hooking up. 516 00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:41,480 Speaker 1: And there's so much in like young straight life and 517 00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:44,160 Speaker 1: culture and young people, young adults straight people's second life. 518 00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:48,840 Speaker 1: That's just gay stuff renamed and reappropriated. So we still 519 00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:52,119 Speaker 1: marriage from you, You still fun buddies from us, and 520 00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:54,360 Speaker 1: I think we're even Yeah, me too, I think we're 521 00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:58,400 Speaker 1: definitely even. That. That said, Dan, you know you are 522 00:26:58,440 --> 00:27:03,159 Speaker 1: a major proponent of this concept called monogamish, which is 523 00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:06,920 Speaker 1: a sort of a modified open marriage concept where you 524 00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:09,920 Speaker 1: you don't believe that for a lot of people, lifelong 525 00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:13,600 Speaker 1: monogamy is realistic, and so if both partners can consent, 526 00:27:14,119 --> 00:27:18,199 Speaker 1: you believe that there there can be extramarital relationships. Can 527 00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:21,760 Speaker 1: you talk about that both in concept and also in 528 00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:24,440 Speaker 1: practice in your own life? Well, I actually coined the 529 00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:29,560 Speaker 1: term monogamist to describe my own, uh life with my husband. Um, 530 00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:32,000 Speaker 1: we're not monogamous. When you're a gay couple, particularly gay 531 00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:33,919 Speaker 1: couple who are parents, and you say you're not monogamous, 532 00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:37,560 Speaker 1: people picture uh, you know a degree of promiscuity or 533 00:27:37,560 --> 00:27:42,080 Speaker 1: recklessness that just isn't us. Um, And so you know, 534 00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:46,399 Speaker 1: we were more monogamous than not you. We're mostly overwhelmingly 535 00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:49,119 Speaker 1: having sex with each other and occasionally a very special 536 00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:52,960 Speaker 1: guest star. So I started saying, like the three of 537 00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:55,840 Speaker 1: you are just like you go out off on your own. 538 00:27:55,840 --> 00:28:02,000 Speaker 1: I'm getting a little nervous here. Both. The question I 539 00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:04,840 Speaker 1: put to Stephen Colbert once that made him have to 540 00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:07,320 Speaker 1: stop his show was, you know, he said, I asked 541 00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:09,280 Speaker 1: me if I cheated on my husband, And I asked 542 00:28:09,359 --> 00:28:11,719 Speaker 1: him if it was cheating if I'm cheating at one 543 00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:13,480 Speaker 1: end of a guy while my husband cheats at the 544 00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:15,200 Speaker 1: other end of the same guy at the same time. 545 00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:19,320 Speaker 1: Are picturing that everybody out there in podcast and we'll 546 00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:21,680 Speaker 1: see if that makes Yes, Yeah, we got that. You're 547 00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:24,399 Speaker 1: painting quite a picture. But do you also do you 548 00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:27,760 Speaker 1: also when you say you're monoga mish, Dan, would you 549 00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:32,600 Speaker 1: also have a sexual encounter with a with a guy 550 00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:37,720 Speaker 1: and that your husband doesn't know and he's okay with that? 551 00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:40,239 Speaker 1: Because I would not be jiggy with that, Dan, if 552 00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:43,160 Speaker 1: my husband wanted to do that. What we do, and 553 00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:45,560 Speaker 1: what I think all people who are engaged in ethical 554 00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:50,320 Speaker 1: nonmonogamy is we do what we both agree is okay. 555 00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:52,440 Speaker 1: You know, when I talk about monogamysh though in the 556 00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:54,680 Speaker 1: context of the column or the concept that I that 557 00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:56,720 Speaker 1: are promligated like it's been embraced by a lot of 558 00:28:56,720 --> 00:29:01,080 Speaker 1: people who are monogamous. But what they you use monogamous 559 00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:03,440 Speaker 1: to mean is, of course we're still attracted to other people. 560 00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:06,280 Speaker 1: You know, we're told a lie about monogamy and about 561 00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:08,560 Speaker 1: long term relationships and love and commitment when we're kids, 562 00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:10,280 Speaker 1: which is you know, one day you'll fall in love 563 00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:12,080 Speaker 1: and you won't want to have sex with anybody else, 564 00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:14,440 Speaker 1: and you will be monogamous. And the truth is, you 565 00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:16,600 Speaker 1: grow up, you'll make a monogamous commitment. You'll still want 566 00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:19,480 Speaker 1: to have sex with other people, but you're not going 567 00:29:19,520 --> 00:29:22,000 Speaker 1: to because you've made a monogamous commitment and you should 568 00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:26,000 Speaker 1: honor that commitment. Um. If two people are policing each 569 00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:29,520 Speaker 1: other in a monogamous relationship for evidence of what both 570 00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:32,320 Speaker 1: should just assume to be true, that's exhausting and it 571 00:29:32,360 --> 00:29:34,520 Speaker 1: generates a lot of conflict, like, oh, you looked at 572 00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:37,880 Speaker 1: that person. You're attracted your personal trainer. Um, you checked 573 00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:40,240 Speaker 1: out the baristas, But well, of course your wife's attracted 574 00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:41,880 Speaker 1: to a personal trainer. No one in the whole long 575 00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:44,200 Speaker 1: history of personal trainers has ever hired a personal trainer 576 00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:48,120 Speaker 1: they didn't want to fuck. It's the question with monogamy 577 00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:49,640 Speaker 1: is whether or not I don't want to do that 578 00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:54,760 Speaker 1: with my personal trainer names Larissa and I. You're the 579 00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:59,440 Speaker 1: exception that proves Earle um By and large broadly speaking generally, 580 00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:02,000 Speaker 1: um So, of course you're both attracted to other people, 581 00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:04,440 Speaker 1: and if you're making a monogamous commitment, then you don't 582 00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:07,640 Speaker 1: sleep with other people. But if why bust each other 583 00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:11,120 Speaker 1: and give each other grief for the fact that you 584 00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:13,640 Speaker 1: will sometimes perceive your partner to be attracted to someone else. 585 00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:15,160 Speaker 1: Of course they're gonna be attracted to someone else. If 586 00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:17,959 Speaker 1: you can diffuse that in a in a monogamous relationship 587 00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:21,840 Speaker 1: that source of conflict, you're gonna have a more stable 588 00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:25,200 Speaker 1: monogamous relationship. I deal with it by just giving my 589 00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:28,000 Speaker 1: husband a lot of free passes, knowing that he's not 590 00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:31,040 Speaker 1: going to use the free passes, but acknowledging that if 591 00:30:31,320 --> 00:30:34,720 Speaker 1: I gave free passes out, those people would be a 592 00:30:34,760 --> 00:30:37,680 Speaker 1: part of the free pass system. Yeah, but your free 593 00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:40,320 Speaker 1: processor a little bit unrealistic. It's like, oh, yeah, john 594 00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:42,840 Speaker 1: if you could convince Gwyneth paltr to sleep with you, 595 00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:45,640 Speaker 1: go right ahead. Hey, I'm not going to tell Johnny 596 00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:49,920 Speaker 1: you said that, Brian, But here's I was just gonna 597 00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:53,760 Speaker 1: ask Dan. You know, you and your husband adopted a son. 598 00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:56,520 Speaker 1: I think a lot of people say that it's important 599 00:30:56,520 --> 00:30:59,320 Speaker 1: to be monogamous for the sake of the kid and 600 00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:03,520 Speaker 1: a stable family unit. Is your son aware of the 601 00:31:03,560 --> 00:31:08,520 Speaker 1: fact that you're monogamish, not monogamous, And what effect, if any, 602 00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:10,760 Speaker 1: do you think that would have on him? Well, he 603 00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:12,920 Speaker 1: doesn't like to hear about his parents sex life anymore 604 00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:16,520 Speaker 1: than anyone else wants to hear about their parents sex lives. Uh. 605 00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:18,680 Speaker 1: You know, he's read some of the stuff that I've written. 606 00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:23,560 Speaker 1: He knows, and we have generally acknowledged it without how 607 00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:26,440 Speaker 1: old into details. He's nineteen years old, he's an adult. 608 00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:29,960 Speaker 1: Uh So I often say to people, ask the questions, 609 00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:31,520 Speaker 1: if your parents were swingers, would you want them to 610 00:31:31,560 --> 00:31:35,800 Speaker 1: tell you? Probably not, Because there's two different kinds of monogamy. 611 00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:38,600 Speaker 1: There's social monogamy and sexual monogamy. And there are people 612 00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:41,360 Speaker 1: who are socially monogamous, perceived to be monogamous, who are 613 00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:44,200 Speaker 1: not actually monogamous. And I think Terry and I would 614 00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:47,800 Speaker 1: be socially monogamous if I hadn't written what I had written, 615 00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:49,880 Speaker 1: even I hadn't told these truths that I felt like 616 00:31:50,040 --> 00:31:53,800 Speaker 1: we should tell to de stigmatize and demystify, Uh, non 617 00:31:53,800 --> 00:31:57,080 Speaker 1: monogamous relationships. Um, So we don't go into it with 618 00:31:57,120 --> 00:31:59,520 Speaker 1: great detail with our kid, nor does he wish to 619 00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:02,800 Speaker 1: discuss it with us in any great detail. Uh. Nor 620 00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:04,840 Speaker 1: would I want to talk with my parents about their 621 00:32:04,880 --> 00:32:07,440 Speaker 1: sex life in any great detail. And if they were not, 622 00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:09,760 Speaker 1: all would want to hear about that from them either. 623 00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:12,760 Speaker 1: I remember when my parents used to lock their door, 624 00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:17,080 Speaker 1: and I would be like gross, because I you know, 625 00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:19,160 Speaker 1: every once in a while, my dad would lock the 626 00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:24,000 Speaker 1: door and I'd be like that going on in there. Anyway, 627 00:32:24,040 --> 00:32:26,000 Speaker 1: on that note, we're going to take a quick break, 628 00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:28,400 Speaker 1: and when we come back, Dan, we want to hear 629 00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:32,560 Speaker 1: more about your podcast and some of the weird questions 630 00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:36,080 Speaker 1: or interesting questions you get about Donald Trump and his 631 00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:40,000 Speaker 1: so called commitment to l g B t Q issues 632 00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:43,640 Speaker 1: that he talked about on the campaign trail, and your 633 00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:47,320 Speaker 1: campaign with your husband, the It Gets Better campaign. So 634 00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:49,680 Speaker 1: we're going to talk about all those things right after this, 635 00:32:54,960 --> 00:33:00,320 Speaker 1: and now back to our conversation with Dan Savage. Let's 636 00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:03,280 Speaker 1: talk about what Donald Trump has done visa v. Gay rights, 637 00:33:03,320 --> 00:33:06,160 Speaker 1: and of course the recent transgender band which caught so 638 00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:09,960 Speaker 1: many people in the Pentagon by surprise. Um, were you 639 00:33:10,040 --> 00:33:12,680 Speaker 1: hopeful that he would be more supportive and what has 640 00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:15,479 Speaker 1: your reaction been to some of the moves that he 641 00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:20,400 Speaker 1: has made. I wasn't hopeful. Um uh. Donald Trump crawled 642 00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:23,880 Speaker 1: into bed with Mike Pence. That was his first big 643 00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:27,480 Speaker 1: act as the nominee, was picking Mike Pence, who is 644 00:33:27,520 --> 00:33:31,400 Speaker 1: one of the most rapidly anti gay Republican politicians in 645 00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:35,200 Speaker 1: the country. Mike penncey redirected funds from HIV prevention education 646 00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:40,400 Speaker 1: to X gay therapies, including shock treatments. Rather than educating 647 00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:43,200 Speaker 1: you so you don't contract HIV, We're going to electrocute 648 00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:46,240 Speaker 1: the gay out of you. That's Mike Pence's platform on 649 00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:50,520 Speaker 1: gay rights. And Trump picked Pence to be his running mate. Uh. 650 00:33:50,720 --> 00:33:55,440 Speaker 1: Trump allowed um, Tony what's his face from Family Research 651 00:33:55,480 --> 00:34:00,800 Speaker 1: Council Perkins from the SPLC certified anti gay hate group 652 00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:06,760 Speaker 1: Family Research Council to basically right the Republican platform again. Um. 653 00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:08,920 Speaker 1: You know. Trump touched a Pride flag at a rally, 654 00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:12,360 Speaker 1: and a bunch of right wing gay people, a handful 655 00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:15,120 Speaker 1: that exists out there, pointed to that as evidence that 656 00:34:15,160 --> 00:34:17,160 Speaker 1: he would be the most pro gay president ever and 657 00:34:17,200 --> 00:34:20,880 Speaker 1: then appoints Neil Gorsus to the Supreme Court, who's already 658 00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:26,120 Speaker 1: uh issued anti gay rulings when he was involved in 659 00:34:26,160 --> 00:34:29,200 Speaker 1: lower courts. And now the transpan which is looks like 660 00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:30,759 Speaker 1: it's going to go into force. And when you have 661 00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:35,160 Speaker 1: the Justice Department reversing an Obama air interpretation of an 662 00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:39,319 Speaker 1: anti gender discrimination statute to as covering sexual orientation, and 663 00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:41,480 Speaker 1: the DJ now weighing in and say, oh, no, no no, no, 664 00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:43,640 Speaker 1: no it doesn't, it doesn't, it doesn't, and inserting itself 665 00:34:43,640 --> 00:34:45,360 Speaker 1: into a lawsuit that it did not need to insert 666 00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:48,520 Speaker 1: itself into into a litigation it wasn't involved in, like 667 00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:52,640 Speaker 1: aggressively going after gay rights. So yeah, I didn't look 668 00:34:52,640 --> 00:34:54,200 Speaker 1: at Trump and think, oh, this is going to be 669 00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:58,640 Speaker 1: a sunny new era of Republican pro gay anything. It 670 00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:01,680 Speaker 1: was more of the same. Having said that, though he 671 00:35:01,760 --> 00:35:04,480 Speaker 1: did tweet out in two thousand and sixteen, thank you 672 00:35:04,560 --> 00:35:07,359 Speaker 1: to the LGBT community. I will fight for you while 673 00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:10,799 Speaker 1: Hillary brings in more people who that will he should 674 00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:13,799 Speaker 1: have said, who will threaten your freedoms and beliefs. And 675 00:35:13,840 --> 00:35:16,840 Speaker 1: even at the r n C he said, as your president, 676 00:35:16,880 --> 00:35:19,000 Speaker 1: I will do everything in my power to protect our 677 00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:22,600 Speaker 1: LGBT citizens from the violence and oppression of a hateful 678 00:35:22,680 --> 00:35:28,000 Speaker 1: foreign ideology. Yeah, the keyword there is foreign ideology. We're 679 00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:30,440 Speaker 1: not going to get thrown off towers by ISIS in 680 00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:32,719 Speaker 1: the United States while Donald Trump is president, but he 681 00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:36,640 Speaker 1: is not going to protect us from a domestic hateful ideology. 682 00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:40,839 Speaker 1: He's going to empower domestic haters of LGBT people as 683 00:35:40,880 --> 00:35:43,040 Speaker 1: he has. Yeah, he was trying to make the political 684 00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:45,479 Speaker 1: argument that he's tougher on ISIS, or he was tougher 685 00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:49,000 Speaker 1: on ISIS than Hillary, and therefore gay people should vote 686 00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:51,080 Speaker 1: for him. And you know, I don't think that was 687 00:35:51,120 --> 00:35:54,880 Speaker 1: a very successful political pitch, but it came across his 688 00:35:54,960 --> 00:35:59,520 Speaker 1: hypocrisy as he made this decision to ban trans people 689 00:35:59,520 --> 00:36:02,839 Speaker 1: from the mill military without even consulting the generals who 690 00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:06,400 Speaker 1: would have to oversee and implement that policy. The scariest 691 00:36:06,400 --> 00:36:08,960 Speaker 1: thing about that announcement he made on Twitter about banning 692 00:36:09,840 --> 00:36:14,440 Speaker 1: trans people from military without consulting his generals was that 693 00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:17,760 Speaker 1: that was three tweets, and the first tweet ended without 694 00:36:17,880 --> 00:36:20,080 Speaker 1: the announcement about what the hell he was talking about, 695 00:36:20,480 --> 00:36:22,600 Speaker 1: And there were nine minutes between that first tweet and 696 00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:26,120 Speaker 1: the second tweet where the Pentagon thought that the Trump 697 00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:30,080 Speaker 1: might be announcing an attack on North Korea. And you know, 698 00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:33,239 Speaker 1: the North Koreans are monitoring Trump's Twitter feed, so they 699 00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:35,840 Speaker 1: might have thought the same thing. We have a dangerous 700 00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:38,279 Speaker 1: lunatic in the office of the President right now and 701 00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:41,800 Speaker 1: peralleling us all not just square people. How many trans 702 00:36:41,880 --> 00:36:44,680 Speaker 1: people are actually in the military. I've seen the numbers 703 00:36:44,840 --> 00:36:47,560 Speaker 1: really very wildly. They do not all people who are 704 00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:49,919 Speaker 1: trans or out, so we're going to have perhaps witch 705 00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:52,600 Speaker 1: hunts like they used to do for closeted people in 706 00:36:52,600 --> 00:36:55,000 Speaker 1: the military, for closet gays and lesbians and bifox in 707 00:36:55,040 --> 00:36:59,880 Speaker 1: the military. But there are reportedly thousands although like you 708 00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:02,719 Speaker 1: of the numbers I've seen very widely, but reportedly thousands 709 00:37:02,719 --> 00:37:06,000 Speaker 1: of trans people already serving in the military without incident, 710 00:37:06,480 --> 00:37:09,440 Speaker 1: without it being a problem. The Pentagon supports allowing trans 711 00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:13,080 Speaker 1: people to serve openly and continuing to serve openly in 712 00:37:13,120 --> 00:37:17,120 Speaker 1: the military. So you you started a project called I 713 00:37:17,360 --> 00:37:19,759 Speaker 1: T M f A. Do you want to say what 714 00:37:19,800 --> 00:37:23,759 Speaker 1: that stands for? It stands for, well, first we have 715 00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:26,760 Speaker 1: to know that. Uh. In my advice column, I frequently 716 00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:29,279 Speaker 1: use the acronym d T m f A because so 717 00:37:29,320 --> 00:37:31,600 Speaker 1: many people right in and the advice they need is 718 00:37:31,600 --> 00:37:34,320 Speaker 1: to dump the motherfucker already. They're like in a terrible 719 00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:36,640 Speaker 1: relationship and they're asking for help, and the only help 720 00:37:36,680 --> 00:37:38,760 Speaker 1: they need is the push to dump. And so sometimes 721 00:37:38,800 --> 00:37:41,480 Speaker 1: I use that shorthand to save space in my column. 722 00:37:41,560 --> 00:37:42,960 Speaker 1: D T. M F A. And you're trying to give 723 00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:46,319 Speaker 1: the nation similar advice exactly. It stands for impeach the 724 00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:51,200 Speaker 1: motherfucker already. And we've sold thousands and thousands of T shirts, mugs, 725 00:37:51,280 --> 00:37:53,200 Speaker 1: very tasteful of pel pins that you can wear on 726 00:37:53,239 --> 00:37:54,960 Speaker 1: a tasteful suit if you're going on the cable news 727 00:37:55,000 --> 00:37:58,200 Speaker 1: program to talk about the President UH and other merch 728 00:37:58,760 --> 00:38:01,960 Speaker 1: and donated whole bunch of money to Plan Parenthood, the 729 00:38:02,000 --> 00:38:04,719 Speaker 1: International Refuge Assistance Project, and the A C l U. 730 00:38:04,840 --> 00:38:08,000 Speaker 1: All proceeds go to those three organizations. And you've raised 731 00:38:08,040 --> 00:38:10,520 Speaker 1: over a hundred thousand dollars. Is that we sold a 732 00:38:10,520 --> 00:38:12,040 Speaker 1: lot more than a hundred thousand dollars. That's what we 733 00:38:12,040 --> 00:38:14,560 Speaker 1: were able to donate after buying the merch, shipping the merch, 734 00:38:14,680 --> 00:38:17,520 Speaker 1: paying the taxes, a hundred thousand dollars to those organizations. 735 00:38:17,640 --> 00:38:19,719 Speaker 1: We're getting ready to make another big donation to those 736 00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:23,359 Speaker 1: organizations based on sales since that donation. Um And what's 737 00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:25,640 Speaker 1: fun about I t m f A is, as you know, 738 00:38:25,680 --> 00:38:27,080 Speaker 1: you wear the T shirt I t m f A 739 00:38:27,200 --> 00:38:28,840 Speaker 1: and people look at you or the red hat that 740 00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:30,239 Speaker 1: has I t m f A on it instead of 741 00:38:30,239 --> 00:38:32,719 Speaker 1: make America Great Again, and people say what is I 742 00:38:32,880 --> 00:38:34,359 Speaker 1: t m f A stand for? And then you get 743 00:38:34,400 --> 00:38:37,600 Speaker 1: to tell them, And at that moment it's like it's 744 00:38:37,640 --> 00:38:39,880 Speaker 1: like the sorting hat in Harry Powder. You're gonna know 745 00:38:39,920 --> 00:38:42,240 Speaker 1: whether you're talking to a good person or a bad person, 746 00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:44,640 Speaker 1: in my opinion, because they lie there, laugh and think 747 00:38:44,680 --> 00:38:46,719 Speaker 1: that's hilarious and want the T shirt themselves, or they'll 748 00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:48,880 Speaker 1: huff off and on. It's interesting you just said that 749 00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:51,640 Speaker 1: because there are a lot of people, a few million 750 00:38:51,680 --> 00:38:55,160 Speaker 1: in fact, who voted for Barack Obama in and then 751 00:38:55,239 --> 00:38:59,480 Speaker 1: voted for Donald Trump in. Are you saying that they're 752 00:38:59,520 --> 00:39:02,279 Speaker 1: all bad people, that the sixty two million people who 753 00:39:02,360 --> 00:39:04,799 Speaker 1: voted for Donald Trump were all bad people? Or is 754 00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:07,440 Speaker 1: there some shift that needs to happen in the society 755 00:39:07,520 --> 00:39:12,279 Speaker 1: where the Democrats or commentators like you need to make 756 00:39:12,320 --> 00:39:15,160 Speaker 1: a stronger case to those people about why and how 757 00:39:15,239 --> 00:39:17,880 Speaker 1: Donald Trump is bad for them. Yes, I agree that 758 00:39:17,880 --> 00:39:20,560 Speaker 1: they're not all in the basket of deplorables. I think 759 00:39:20,560 --> 00:39:23,560 Speaker 1: there definitely are some who are in the basket of deplorables. 760 00:39:23,600 --> 00:39:26,719 Speaker 1: That statement Hillary made that was just so problematic for her, 761 00:39:26,719 --> 00:39:28,359 Speaker 1: in such a burden for her is really kind of true. 762 00:39:28,440 --> 00:39:30,480 Speaker 1: You know, in politics, you can't win over everyone. You 763 00:39:30,480 --> 00:39:32,560 Speaker 1: have to work at the margins. And there are people 764 00:39:32,560 --> 00:39:35,279 Speaker 1: whose support for Trump was marginal and conditional. You've seen 765 00:39:35,440 --> 00:39:37,960 Speaker 1: his poll numbers dropping. You've seen a lot of people 766 00:39:38,160 --> 00:39:40,759 Speaker 1: even in the base, the GOP base and his base, 767 00:39:40,880 --> 00:39:44,200 Speaker 1: regret their support for him, including one of his highest 768 00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:50,279 Speaker 1: profile queer supporters, who's Peter Teal, the Silicon Valley investor 769 00:39:50,320 --> 00:39:53,759 Speaker 1: billionaire uh now thinks that the Trump administration is incompetent 770 00:39:53,800 --> 00:39:55,960 Speaker 1: in a disaster. Thinks now what we all could see 771 00:39:56,000 --> 00:39:59,759 Speaker 1: coming plainly before he was elected. So, yeah, you want 772 00:39:59,760 --> 00:40:02,640 Speaker 1: to work on reaching those folks. And you know the 773 00:40:02,920 --> 00:40:04,719 Speaker 1: message I think the Democrats need to send us that 774 00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:07,480 Speaker 1: the Republicans are lying to you about cause and effect. 775 00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:10,680 Speaker 1: They're pointing to the fact that people of color it's 776 00:40:10,719 --> 00:40:14,000 Speaker 1: not legal to discriminate against them anymore. That you know, 777 00:40:14,360 --> 00:40:17,840 Speaker 1: women are empowered in the workforce and gender discrimination is 778 00:40:17,880 --> 00:40:20,120 Speaker 1: wrong that like there's all these openly gay people around, 779 00:40:20,160 --> 00:40:22,439 Speaker 1: and you know, there's more people causing more Mexicans, there's 780 00:40:22,440 --> 00:40:25,040 Speaker 1: more immigrants, and they say, look at these things, this 781 00:40:25,120 --> 00:40:29,000 Speaker 1: is why you don't have a living wage job, and 782 00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:33,360 Speaker 1: actually those things, you know, there's correlation perhaps there, but 783 00:40:33,400 --> 00:40:35,600 Speaker 1: there's not causation. You have a living wage job because 784 00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:39,120 Speaker 1: we've destroyed the union movement, because we've shredded the social 785 00:40:39,160 --> 00:40:41,960 Speaker 1: safety net, because we don't invest in schools and communities 786 00:40:41,960 --> 00:40:45,759 Speaker 1: and transportation and housing the way we once did. That's 787 00:40:45,760 --> 00:40:48,120 Speaker 1: that's why it's tougher for you. That's why college is 788 00:40:48,400 --> 00:40:52,160 Speaker 1: primitively expensive for your kids now. It's not because gay 789 00:40:52,200 --> 00:40:55,600 Speaker 1: people are open. That didn't cause that to happen. It's 790 00:40:55,640 --> 00:40:58,120 Speaker 1: not because there are more Mexicans now than there were 791 00:40:58,280 --> 00:41:01,160 Speaker 1: thirty forty years ago. What the problem now is that 792 00:41:01,640 --> 00:41:04,840 Speaker 1: there's not a union. The problem now is that we've 793 00:41:05,360 --> 00:41:07,520 Speaker 1: shredded that social safety net, that we've done away with 794 00:41:07,560 --> 00:41:10,640 Speaker 1: living wage jobs, but that we don't that the rich 795 00:41:10,680 --> 00:41:12,799 Speaker 1: don't pay their fair share, and then we invest that 796 00:41:12,880 --> 00:41:16,200 Speaker 1: money into programs that benefit anyone. That's the cause of 797 00:41:16,239 --> 00:41:20,560 Speaker 1: your misery, not these those people whether you're talking about 798 00:41:20,560 --> 00:41:24,120 Speaker 1: people of color, or queer people or trans people or whoever, 799 00:41:24,120 --> 00:41:26,400 Speaker 1: the scapegoat of the moment is that they're pointing to. 800 00:41:26,680 --> 00:41:28,359 Speaker 1: You know, I have to point out, though, I thought 801 00:41:28,360 --> 00:41:31,040 Speaker 1: it was interesting, Dan, that you launched this I T 802 00:41:31,280 --> 00:41:36,719 Speaker 1: M F A campaign during George W. Bush's presidency and 803 00:41:37,239 --> 00:41:40,760 Speaker 1: which and he, the President Bush must seem like Nelson 804 00:41:40,800 --> 00:41:43,400 Speaker 1: Mandela at this point in time to you, you know, 805 00:41:43,440 --> 00:41:48,560 Speaker 1: in retrospect, you know, Bush launched you know, a disastrous 806 00:41:48,560 --> 00:41:51,279 Speaker 1: war and tank the economy. Uh. We got out of 807 00:41:51,320 --> 00:41:54,920 Speaker 1: the Bush era alive. Uh, most of us, not all 808 00:41:54,960 --> 00:41:57,400 Speaker 1: of us. And he also got reelected in part on 809 00:41:57,440 --> 00:42:01,000 Speaker 1: an attack on gay people, in gay marriage and particulars. 810 00:42:01,680 --> 00:42:03,600 Speaker 1: That's true. So now we can look back on the 811 00:42:03,600 --> 00:42:05,640 Speaker 1: Bush air thinking, well, it didn't kill us. Right now 812 00:42:05,680 --> 00:42:07,680 Speaker 1: in the middle of the you know, out the beginning 813 00:42:07,760 --> 00:42:11,560 Speaker 1: of the Trump hopefully not era, hopefully the Trump twenty 814 00:42:11,600 --> 00:42:16,200 Speaker 1: four months, Uh, he might get us all killed. And 815 00:42:16,239 --> 00:42:17,600 Speaker 1: it's a little bit you know, you want to like 816 00:42:17,840 --> 00:42:20,439 Speaker 1: return to the president who you know, in retrospect didn't 817 00:42:20,440 --> 00:42:22,880 Speaker 1: get us all killed but might have at the time 818 00:42:23,400 --> 00:42:26,400 Speaker 1: condess all killed. How realistic do you think it is 819 00:42:26,440 --> 00:42:29,480 Speaker 1: that Donald Trump will be impeached. If Donald Trump or 820 00:42:29,520 --> 00:42:32,120 Speaker 1: Hillary Clinton, he would have been impeached twenty three times already. 821 00:42:32,800 --> 00:42:37,719 Speaker 1: H If Chelsea Clinton was filling in for Hillary UH 822 00:42:37,800 --> 00:42:39,960 Speaker 1: in an official capacity in any way, there would be 823 00:42:40,320 --> 00:42:45,200 Speaker 1: no end of screaming and yelling, complaining, um, the corruption, hypocrisy, 824 00:42:45,239 --> 00:42:50,400 Speaker 1: the double standards UH are are appalling. So you know, realistically, 825 00:42:50,440 --> 00:42:52,840 Speaker 1: he's probably not gonna get impeached as long as Paul 826 00:42:52,920 --> 00:42:55,440 Speaker 1: Ryan is sitting there and a Speaker of the House. 827 00:42:56,160 --> 00:42:58,960 Speaker 1: I'm hopeful that the Dems can take at least the 828 00:42:58,960 --> 00:43:02,880 Speaker 1: House and hopefully the House the Senate u in. But 829 00:43:02,920 --> 00:43:05,719 Speaker 1: if the Democrats do take the House in do you 830 00:43:05,760 --> 00:43:08,120 Speaker 1: really want Donald Trump to be impeached? Given what you 831 00:43:08,200 --> 00:43:10,759 Speaker 1: just said about Mike Pence? People ask that question a lot, like, 832 00:43:10,800 --> 00:43:12,920 Speaker 1: oh my god. But if we impeach him, then it's Pence, 833 00:43:13,040 --> 00:43:16,000 Speaker 1: And my feeling is as awful as I think Pence is. 834 00:43:16,480 --> 00:43:21,200 Speaker 1: Pence oscillates in a predictable band of Republican awfulness, whereas Trump, 835 00:43:21,280 --> 00:43:23,560 Speaker 1: you don't know what's going to happen next, and it's 836 00:43:23,560 --> 00:43:25,640 Speaker 1: a bit of an existential terror living with that man 837 00:43:25,680 --> 00:43:29,839 Speaker 1: in the Oval office. You're highly critical, obviously of Republicans, 838 00:43:29,880 --> 00:43:33,640 Speaker 1: But you also get annoyed by liberal Democrats. What do 839 00:43:33,680 --> 00:43:37,279 Speaker 1: you think they get wrong? And why are they why 840 00:43:37,280 --> 00:43:40,440 Speaker 1: do they seem to be struggling, you know, and having 841 00:43:40,480 --> 00:43:43,360 Speaker 1: a bit of an identity crisis. Democrats are just so 842 00:43:43,400 --> 00:43:46,919 Speaker 1: bad at messaging. You know. The word goes down from 843 00:43:46,960 --> 00:43:49,200 Speaker 1: some you know, the Republican death star, that we're going 844 00:43:49,239 --> 00:43:51,839 Speaker 1: to call these partial birth abortions, that we're gonna call 845 00:43:51,880 --> 00:43:54,319 Speaker 1: them death taxes, and we're gonna talk about a death 846 00:43:54,320 --> 00:43:58,600 Speaker 1: panel and or fake news, and then every Republican marches 847 00:43:58,640 --> 00:44:03,760 Speaker 1: in lockstep, every Republicans behind whatever the message is, until 848 00:44:04,040 --> 00:44:08,919 Speaker 1: even liberals can't think of, uh, that abortion procedure without 849 00:44:08,920 --> 00:44:12,000 Speaker 1: thinking partial birth abortion, or can't think of estate taxes 850 00:44:12,040 --> 00:44:16,920 Speaker 1: without thinking death taxes, and Democrats can't seem to uh 851 00:44:17,120 --> 00:44:20,520 Speaker 1: make that same sort of effort. Democrats can't seem to unite, 852 00:44:21,000 --> 00:44:23,359 Speaker 1: for instance. And this isn't my idea of suggested years 853 00:44:23,400 --> 00:44:26,160 Speaker 1: ago by a Republican operative who walked away from the 854 00:44:26,239 --> 00:44:28,799 Speaker 1: right wing movement because he was so disgusted by what 855 00:44:28,840 --> 00:44:31,760 Speaker 1: he had witnessed and his name escapes me, because marijuana 856 00:44:31,800 --> 00:44:35,279 Speaker 1: is legally here where I live, and he he said, 857 00:44:35,320 --> 00:44:38,520 Speaker 1: why are you calling them entitlements. We don't like people 858 00:44:38,560 --> 00:44:43,080 Speaker 1: who are entitled. No one's entitled to anything, right, that's 859 00:44:43,080 --> 00:44:46,480 Speaker 1: the American myth. You have to make it happen for yourself. 860 00:44:46,680 --> 00:44:48,440 Speaker 1: What they are is and what you should be calling 861 00:44:48,440 --> 00:44:51,800 Speaker 1: them are earned benefits, Social Security, medicare earned benefits. You 862 00:44:51,920 --> 00:44:55,839 Speaker 1: paid in. You earned this, not you're entitled to it. 863 00:44:56,160 --> 00:44:57,960 Speaker 1: And this has been floating around now for like a 864 00:44:58,000 --> 00:45:00,560 Speaker 1: dozen years, this advice. And yet every time you see 865 00:45:00,560 --> 00:45:04,920 Speaker 1: a Democrat on television talking about Social Security, it's entitlement, entitlement, entitlement, entitlement. 866 00:45:05,280 --> 00:45:07,759 Speaker 1: Even though that's it's right wing rhetoric to call it 867 00:45:07,800 --> 00:45:11,640 Speaker 1: an entitlement, it undermines social security every time a Democrat 868 00:45:11,760 --> 00:45:13,880 Speaker 1: lets the word entitlement fall out of their mouths and 869 00:45:13,880 --> 00:45:16,319 Speaker 1: you see it on I think single pair is not 870 00:45:16,480 --> 00:45:19,200 Speaker 1: a term that Democrats should embrace. And Democrats are just 871 00:45:19,280 --> 00:45:23,360 Speaker 1: terrible messaging. So what should it be? Universal healthcare? Everyone 872 00:45:23,480 --> 00:45:27,120 Speaker 1: is pro universe, everyone's pro healthcare. When you hear single pair. 873 00:45:27,200 --> 00:45:29,640 Speaker 1: And what what the ours will do, when already are doing, 874 00:45:29,920 --> 00:45:31,719 Speaker 1: is they'll say to an individual voter, you know who 875 00:45:31,719 --> 00:45:33,279 Speaker 1: they mean when they say a single pair, they mean 876 00:45:33,320 --> 00:45:36,560 Speaker 1: you you're going to be paying for their healthcare for 877 00:45:36,680 --> 00:45:40,239 Speaker 1: those people. So they really need sort of new branding, 878 00:45:40,360 --> 00:45:42,919 Speaker 1: don't they. They need to hire a consultant to come 879 00:45:43,000 --> 00:45:45,680 Speaker 1: up with better terminology. I think he's talking about kind 880 00:45:45,680 --> 00:45:48,520 Speaker 1: of like a Frank Lence for the left. Frank was 881 00:45:48,640 --> 00:45:51,560 Speaker 1: a guest on this show, and he's of course famous 882 00:45:51,600 --> 00:45:55,200 Speaker 1: for coming up with words and catch phrases that Republicans 883 00:45:55,239 --> 00:45:58,600 Speaker 1: can use to defend and promote their ideas, and the 884 00:45:58,680 --> 00:46:01,400 Speaker 1: Dems desperately need one. And I think there's an example 885 00:46:01,440 --> 00:46:04,400 Speaker 1: in gay marriage when it comes to messaging. Um. You know, 886 00:46:04,520 --> 00:46:07,720 Speaker 1: even advocates of of same sex marriage, advocates of marriage 887 00:46:07,760 --> 00:46:12,160 Speaker 1: equality like me and other folks who you know, pushed 888 00:46:12,200 --> 00:46:15,560 Speaker 1: the movement, Mary von Otto and Evan Wolfson and Andrew Sullivan. 889 00:46:16,080 --> 00:46:18,160 Speaker 1: A lot, everyone was using gay marriage, gay marriage, and 890 00:46:18,200 --> 00:46:19,759 Speaker 1: then there was this shift on a dime one day 891 00:46:19,760 --> 00:46:23,359 Speaker 1: where everyone started using marriage equality because gay marriage put 892 00:46:23,400 --> 00:46:26,200 Speaker 1: gay first gay for a lot of straight people, who 893 00:46:26,200 --> 00:46:28,800 Speaker 1: are the people we are trying to convince is a negative. 894 00:46:28,840 --> 00:46:31,879 Speaker 1: It conjures up negative mental images of frankly, of gay 895 00:46:31,920 --> 00:46:35,200 Speaker 1: sex gay marriage. It's like gay sex marriage, this is 896 00:46:35,239 --> 00:46:38,320 Speaker 1: butt sucker marriage. And that made people uncomfortable because not 897 00:46:38,400 --> 00:46:41,960 Speaker 1: everyone is for gay or that's okay with gay sex. 898 00:46:42,000 --> 00:46:45,200 Speaker 1: And then marriage equality, everyone's for marriage, everyone's for equality, 899 00:46:45,680 --> 00:46:48,080 Speaker 1: universal health care, not single payer, because everyone's for the 900 00:46:48,160 --> 00:46:50,719 Speaker 1: universe and everyone's for health. That's so interesting, isn't it? 901 00:46:50,880 --> 00:46:55,080 Speaker 1: How much that changed the perception and ergo the progression 902 00:46:55,400 --> 00:46:59,520 Speaker 1: of of gay marriage or marriage equality. Right, and that 903 00:46:59,560 --> 00:47:02,640 Speaker 1: happened on a dime where everyone started using marriage of quality. 904 00:47:02,680 --> 00:47:06,000 Speaker 1: Why twelve years after uh this, I think kind of 905 00:47:06,040 --> 00:47:08,960 Speaker 1: seminal op ed was written about. Stop calling them entitlements, 906 00:47:09,000 --> 00:47:13,759 Speaker 1: call them earned benefits. Our Democrats still going on CNN 907 00:47:13,760 --> 00:47:16,920 Speaker 1: and MSNBC sometimes even Fox and saying and having the 908 00:47:16,920 --> 00:47:20,160 Speaker 1: word entitlement come out of their mouths. It's political malpractice 909 00:47:20,200 --> 00:47:22,520 Speaker 1: at this point, speaking of Fox, does your dad still 910 00:47:22,560 --> 00:47:25,960 Speaker 1: watch Fox News only twenty four hours a day so 911 00:47:25,960 --> 00:47:30,319 Speaker 1: he's limited himself. That must be a fun dinner table conversation. 912 00:47:30,360 --> 00:47:33,680 Speaker 1: I mean, because you do. It's it's amazing to me. 913 00:47:33,840 --> 00:47:38,880 Speaker 1: You watch the different networks and it's like a parallel universe, 914 00:47:39,040 --> 00:47:43,239 Speaker 1: it is. You get a completely different perspective given who 915 00:47:43,280 --> 00:47:45,279 Speaker 1: you're watching right now. Do you have a hard time 916 00:47:45,320 --> 00:47:48,520 Speaker 1: even discussing things with him? Yeah, we don't talk about politics. 917 00:47:49,920 --> 00:47:53,240 Speaker 1: We can't we we we don't have the same language, 918 00:47:53,239 --> 00:47:56,359 Speaker 1: we don't live in the same universe. And you know, 919 00:47:56,400 --> 00:47:58,360 Speaker 1: my dad, like I think a lot of people exist 920 00:47:58,400 --> 00:48:01,280 Speaker 1: in kind of hermetically sealed right universe. Although he claims 921 00:48:01,280 --> 00:48:05,120 Speaker 1: he's an independent, and yet he only votes for Republicans 922 00:48:05,200 --> 00:48:10,040 Speaker 1: and except says, fact a lot of the crap that 923 00:48:10,360 --> 00:48:13,440 Speaker 1: is shoveled out out of the television screen every day 924 00:48:13,440 --> 00:48:15,560 Speaker 1: by Fox News in Hannity and all the lying liars 925 00:48:15,600 --> 00:48:18,640 Speaker 1: over there, How can we ever come together if people 926 00:48:18,640 --> 00:48:23,919 Speaker 1: are getting their worldview from two such disparate places. I mean, 927 00:48:24,000 --> 00:48:26,640 Speaker 1: I think we're probably overblowing the number of people who 928 00:48:26,640 --> 00:48:29,279 Speaker 1: watch cable news, which is not that many. You know. 929 00:48:29,360 --> 00:48:31,279 Speaker 1: I think sometimes if you watch it, you feel like 930 00:48:31,320 --> 00:48:34,520 Speaker 1: everybody is. But it seems to me that it's it's 931 00:48:34,600 --> 00:48:39,759 Speaker 1: only I think, exacerbating this divide in the country. It is. 932 00:48:40,040 --> 00:48:42,120 Speaker 1: And but but we're never going to bring everybody together. 933 00:48:42,200 --> 00:48:45,520 Speaker 1: There was never a moment where we were were all together, um, 934 00:48:45,640 --> 00:48:47,520 Speaker 1: and there never will be. You know, what you want 935 00:48:47,560 --> 00:48:50,760 Speaker 1: to do is assemble a majority, and sometimes that means 936 00:48:51,160 --> 00:48:54,080 Speaker 1: looking at the people you can't persuade and not not 937 00:48:54,239 --> 00:48:58,680 Speaker 1: trying to persuade the unpersuadable, not not expending that effort, uh, 938 00:48:58,719 --> 00:49:02,160 Speaker 1: and to not st effort on those who cannot be persuaded. 939 00:49:02,200 --> 00:49:06,200 Speaker 1: You have to first be able to identify accurately those 940 00:49:06,200 --> 00:49:09,959 Speaker 1: people who cannot be persuaded, and identify accurately those people 941 00:49:10,000 --> 00:49:12,720 Speaker 1: who can be moved. And maybe the people you cited 942 00:49:12,719 --> 00:49:15,719 Speaker 1: earlier who voted for Obama eight years ago or four 943 00:49:15,760 --> 00:49:17,799 Speaker 1: years ago and voted for Trump this year, that those 944 00:49:17,840 --> 00:49:20,160 Speaker 1: are the people that Dems should be really digging into 945 00:49:20,239 --> 00:49:22,759 Speaker 1: and figuring out how to speak to and how to 946 00:49:23,800 --> 00:49:28,319 Speaker 1: what language and what sort of words and phrases that 947 00:49:28,440 --> 00:49:31,560 Speaker 1: best encapsulate and communicate. Democratic policies which are better for 948 00:49:31,600 --> 00:49:36,240 Speaker 1: those people, uh, will work and to bring them around. 949 00:49:36,920 --> 00:49:41,879 Speaker 1: But the hardcore Donald Trump can do no wrong. Dear 950 00:49:42,000 --> 00:49:45,960 Speaker 1: leader Dan, you were introduced to many Americans through the 951 00:49:46,200 --> 00:49:50,240 Speaker 1: It Gets Better project, which you started in with your husband, 952 00:49:50,280 --> 00:49:53,200 Speaker 1: and the idea was to have adult submit videos assuring 953 00:49:53,280 --> 00:49:56,719 Speaker 1: gay teenagers that they can go on to you know, 954 00:49:56,760 --> 00:50:00,000 Speaker 1: have good lives even after being bullied as teens or 955 00:50:00,160 --> 00:50:02,440 Speaker 1: or feeling bad about themselves for being gay. How did 956 00:50:02,520 --> 00:50:05,279 Speaker 1: how did this idea come about? Well, there was this 957 00:50:05,360 --> 00:50:10,280 Speaker 1: kid in Indiana named Billy Lucas who killed himself. Uh 958 00:50:10,320 --> 00:50:14,759 Speaker 1: and he it's a it's a horrible story, but you know, 959 00:50:14,840 --> 00:50:16,600 Speaker 1: he was very brutally bullied all through middle school in 960 00:50:16,640 --> 00:50:18,400 Speaker 1: high school, never came out to anybody, may not have 961 00:50:18,440 --> 00:50:21,520 Speaker 1: been gay, but was perceived to be gay. And after 962 00:50:21,960 --> 00:50:24,640 Speaker 1: he died, a Facebook memorial page was created for him 963 00:50:24,640 --> 00:50:26,239 Speaker 1: by his family. Were the same kids who had been 964 00:50:26,239 --> 00:50:29,880 Speaker 1: bullying him uh in school went They went to that 965 00:50:29,960 --> 00:50:31,680 Speaker 1: page to say they were glad he was dead and 966 00:50:31,719 --> 00:50:33,480 Speaker 1: to call him faggot one last time in front of 967 00:50:33,520 --> 00:50:36,200 Speaker 1: his grieving parents. And I wrote about that, and I 968 00:50:36,280 --> 00:50:40,680 Speaker 1: was just so furious, as we're all the commenters except 969 00:50:40,719 --> 00:50:43,480 Speaker 1: one who wrote a comment on my blog on the 970 00:50:43,480 --> 00:50:46,200 Speaker 1: thing I wrote about Billy's death and that Facebook page 971 00:50:46,880 --> 00:50:50,440 Speaker 1: where she said I wished I had known you, Billy, 972 00:50:50,480 --> 00:50:52,319 Speaker 1: and being able to tell you it makes me cry. 973 00:50:52,640 --> 00:50:54,399 Speaker 1: I've been able to tell you that things get better. 974 00:50:54,680 --> 00:50:56,640 Speaker 1: Rest in peace, And that really leapt out at me, 975 00:50:56,680 --> 00:50:59,839 Speaker 1: because things do get better, often on the personal level, 976 00:51:00,080 --> 00:51:02,480 Speaker 1: on the macro level, for the queer community, things have 977 00:51:02,520 --> 00:51:05,480 Speaker 1: gotten much better, and we need to be able to 978 00:51:05,880 --> 00:51:07,959 Speaker 1: share that with kids. And I just was thinking about 979 00:51:08,040 --> 00:51:10,640 Speaker 1: things get better and you know, particularly the kids who 980 00:51:10,680 --> 00:51:12,319 Speaker 1: have parents would never allow them to talk to a 981 00:51:12,360 --> 00:51:15,319 Speaker 1: queer adult or go to an LGBT youth support group 982 00:51:15,400 --> 00:51:17,200 Speaker 1: or join the g s A in their school. Those 983 00:51:17,280 --> 00:51:20,200 Speaker 1: kids need to hear from queer adults about how it 984 00:51:20,239 --> 00:51:23,440 Speaker 1: gets better, um and how to make it better for themselves, 985 00:51:23,480 --> 00:51:26,520 Speaker 1: what we did to make it better for ourselves, And 986 00:51:27,400 --> 00:51:29,839 Speaker 1: we wouldn't get permission to talk to those kids, right, 987 00:51:29,960 --> 00:51:32,360 Speaker 1: And it just occurred to me that, oh, there's the Internet, 988 00:51:32,400 --> 00:51:34,840 Speaker 1: there's YouTube, there's Twitter and Facebook. We don't need permission 989 00:51:34,840 --> 00:51:37,120 Speaker 1: to talk to those kids anymore. That they're queer kids 990 00:51:37,120 --> 00:51:39,759 Speaker 1: out there who can't get to a queer youth support group, 991 00:51:39,800 --> 00:51:42,239 Speaker 1: but we can bring the queer youth support group and 992 00:51:42,280 --> 00:51:46,560 Speaker 1: the adult perspective to them using these new tools. Because 993 00:51:46,600 --> 00:51:48,799 Speaker 1: when you think about you know, people have said to me, 994 00:51:48,880 --> 00:51:50,560 Speaker 1: you know, it's not just gay kids who are bullying, 995 00:51:50,560 --> 00:51:53,520 Speaker 1: like absolutely true. The kid is bullied at school because 996 00:51:53,520 --> 00:51:56,959 Speaker 1: of his race or her faith or his class goes 997 00:51:57,000 --> 00:52:00,440 Speaker 1: home to parents with the same race, faith, class that 998 00:52:00,480 --> 00:52:03,200 Speaker 1: they can open up to and expect support. A kid 999 00:52:03,239 --> 00:52:07,080 Speaker 1: who's queer or gender nonconforming or gay goes home to 1000 00:52:07,200 --> 00:52:13,200 Speaker 1: parents who aren't queer and sometimes disastrously are there. We're 1001 00:52:13,280 --> 00:52:16,680 Speaker 1: the worst bullies in their lives are bullying them too, 1002 00:52:17,560 --> 00:52:19,360 Speaker 1: and they have no one to turn to. You know, 1003 00:52:19,840 --> 00:52:22,200 Speaker 1: a kid of a kid who's uh, you know, an 1004 00:52:22,200 --> 00:52:24,319 Speaker 1: African American kid goes home to his parents and can 1005 00:52:24,320 --> 00:52:26,840 Speaker 1: talk about what he's encountered, what he's seen. The parents 1006 00:52:26,880 --> 00:52:31,279 Speaker 1: will share with their kid how they navigate living in 1007 00:52:31,320 --> 00:52:34,640 Speaker 1: a society with the were plague by systemic racism, how 1008 00:52:35,080 --> 00:52:38,359 Speaker 1: you know, how they survive. And the kid who's gay 1009 00:52:38,520 --> 00:52:41,319 Speaker 1: goes home to parents who can't impart that, who can't 1010 00:52:41,360 --> 00:52:43,279 Speaker 1: share that. Even if the kids openly gay and the 1011 00:52:43,320 --> 00:52:47,640 Speaker 1: parents are supportive, they don't know how to illuminate that path. 1012 00:52:47,960 --> 00:52:50,280 Speaker 1: And what the Gets Better campaign did was it allowed 1013 00:52:51,080 --> 00:52:55,480 Speaker 1: LGBT adults to share what they learned navigating that often 1014 00:52:55,520 --> 00:52:58,960 Speaker 1: all by themselves. Um with queer kids who are just 1015 00:52:59,040 --> 00:53:01,000 Speaker 1: starting out, who are just figuring out who they are, 1016 00:53:01,360 --> 00:53:04,920 Speaker 1: and also straight people who are were supportive of or 1017 00:53:05,080 --> 00:53:09,200 Speaker 1: are supportive of the community. They participated as well. You 1018 00:53:09,280 --> 00:53:13,440 Speaker 1: had people like Stephen Colbert, for example, in Jannet Jackson 1019 00:53:13,480 --> 00:53:17,480 Speaker 1: and all sorts of people, Barack Obama, Barack Obama exactly, 1020 00:53:17,600 --> 00:53:21,600 Speaker 1: and Joe Biden. They all contributed videos to this effort, 1021 00:53:21,680 --> 00:53:26,080 Speaker 1: which was really, I imagine also very important. It was important, 1022 00:53:26,120 --> 00:53:29,640 Speaker 1: you know, for my money, Uh, I think the most 1023 00:53:29,680 --> 00:53:32,520 Speaker 1: important videos are the videos by LGBT folks that no 1024 00:53:32,520 --> 00:53:35,400 Speaker 1: one's ever heard of, not celebrities, not famous. There was 1025 00:53:35,440 --> 00:53:38,320 Speaker 1: one by a lesbian dairy farmer in Vermont talking about 1026 00:53:39,239 --> 00:53:41,600 Speaker 1: even living in this oral community, how it got better 1027 00:53:41,640 --> 00:53:43,759 Speaker 1: for her, and how she's loved and accepted by her 1028 00:53:43,760 --> 00:53:47,560 Speaker 1: family and uh and her community, and that's really important. 1029 00:53:47,600 --> 00:53:50,720 Speaker 1: What wasn't great about the videos from straight folks? Uh? 1030 00:53:50,880 --> 00:53:53,160 Speaker 1: You know, as re Kline from Box made a really 1031 00:53:53,200 --> 00:53:56,480 Speaker 1: wonderful it gets Better video was an important message for 1032 00:53:56,480 --> 00:53:58,960 Speaker 1: a lot of young queer kids who are being bullied 1033 00:53:59,000 --> 00:54:01,840 Speaker 1: by their families and by every straight person that they know. 1034 00:54:02,719 --> 00:54:05,560 Speaker 1: Is the message that there are straight people out there 1035 00:54:05,560 --> 00:54:07,360 Speaker 1: in the world who will love and accept you for 1036 00:54:07,400 --> 00:54:09,160 Speaker 1: who you are. You may not know any of them 1037 00:54:09,239 --> 00:54:12,520 Speaker 1: right now, but they're out there. You know. I hate 1038 00:54:12,520 --> 00:54:16,040 Speaker 1: to end things on a pessimistic note, but I can't 1039 00:54:16,040 --> 00:54:18,600 Speaker 1: help but wonder, which makes me sound very much like 1040 00:54:18,719 --> 00:54:21,600 Speaker 1: Carrie Bradshaw. But with all the things that are going 1041 00:54:21,680 --> 00:54:24,160 Speaker 1: on in the country and some of the things that 1042 00:54:24,560 --> 00:54:29,600 Speaker 1: the Trump administration has done so far. Are you concerned 1043 00:54:29,640 --> 00:54:32,959 Speaker 1: about the strides that have been made and about going 1044 00:54:33,040 --> 00:54:36,120 Speaker 1: backwards and about some of the members of these communities 1045 00:54:36,719 --> 00:54:41,439 Speaker 1: who are going to really suffer as a result. I am, 1046 00:54:41,719 --> 00:54:45,279 Speaker 1: I'm very concerned. But you know, circling back to when 1047 00:54:45,320 --> 00:54:49,279 Speaker 1: we were talking about HIV AIDS, things were dark and 1048 00:54:49,640 --> 00:54:52,839 Speaker 1: things looked really dire, and there was you know, we've 1049 00:54:52,840 --> 00:54:57,719 Speaker 1: made progress, but then that was halted in some places, reversed, uh, 1050 00:54:57,760 --> 00:55:00,680 Speaker 1: and then we got into the fight and that fight 1051 00:55:00,920 --> 00:55:05,440 Speaker 1: and having to defend what we'd already uh secured. Um, 1052 00:55:05,520 --> 00:55:08,160 Speaker 1: that fight made it better in the end. That fight 1053 00:55:08,840 --> 00:55:13,960 Speaker 1: wound up creating more progress and more forward momentum. So 1054 00:55:14,120 --> 00:55:16,880 Speaker 1: right now there's a fight on and people have to 1055 00:55:16,960 --> 00:55:19,600 Speaker 1: jump in and get engaged. But that's how it gets better, 1056 00:55:19,600 --> 00:55:22,880 Speaker 1: because you got out there and fought. That's how the 1057 00:55:23,160 --> 00:55:26,520 Speaker 1: Act Up generation made it better for the generations of 1058 00:55:26,600 --> 00:55:30,359 Speaker 1: queer people who have come after by engaging in the fight, 1059 00:55:30,360 --> 00:55:32,719 Speaker 1: by defending ourselves and fighting for what we know to 1060 00:55:32,760 --> 00:55:35,480 Speaker 1: be right. So this is galvanized the community in a 1061 00:55:35,520 --> 00:55:38,960 Speaker 1: way exactly. You know, the we talked about the transpan 1062 00:55:39,440 --> 00:55:45,200 Speaker 1: and it's being used politically by this Republican administration. George Bush, 1063 00:55:45,360 --> 00:55:47,279 Speaker 1: like brand said, George Bush two thousand and four helped 1064 00:55:47,280 --> 00:55:49,960 Speaker 1: get reelected by running anti game marriage initiatives in eleven 1065 00:55:50,000 --> 00:55:52,759 Speaker 1: states that passed in each and every state, and a 1066 00:55:52,800 --> 00:55:56,680 Speaker 1: decade later, we have marriage equality in part, not despite 1067 00:55:56,719 --> 00:56:00,360 Speaker 1: those campaigns, but because of them, because the anti marriage 1068 00:56:00,360 --> 00:56:05,320 Speaker 1: campaign force us to have an ongoing conversation about marriage 1069 00:56:05,400 --> 00:56:09,640 Speaker 1: rights and about gay relationships and straight relationships, and about love. 1070 00:56:10,040 --> 00:56:12,839 Speaker 1: And even though we lost those sort of snapshots in 1071 00:56:12,880 --> 00:56:15,920 Speaker 1: time in two thousand and four, we were winning the argument. 1072 00:56:15,960 --> 00:56:17,719 Speaker 1: The more we had the fight, the more we had 1073 00:56:17,719 --> 00:56:20,520 Speaker 1: the argument, the more the needle moved in the direction 1074 00:56:20,560 --> 00:56:23,920 Speaker 1: of justice and fairness toward us. And we're having that 1075 00:56:23,960 --> 00:56:27,040 Speaker 1: fight now about trans rights. You know, their weaponizing anti 1076 00:56:27,040 --> 00:56:30,280 Speaker 1: trans bigotry at this moment. They may win at this moment, 1077 00:56:30,480 --> 00:56:33,239 Speaker 1: but the conversation they're starting and the fight that we 1078 00:56:33,320 --> 00:56:35,279 Speaker 1: are now in is going to move the needle in 1079 00:56:35,320 --> 00:56:39,040 Speaker 1: the direction of progress and justice ultimately and in the end. Well, 1080 00:56:39,120 --> 00:56:41,239 Speaker 1: Dan Savage has been such a pleasure to talk to 1081 00:56:41,280 --> 00:56:44,560 Speaker 1: you about so many different things. We really appreciate your 1082 00:56:44,560 --> 00:56:47,760 Speaker 1: coming on the podcast, and you know, I look forward 1083 00:56:47,800 --> 00:56:50,640 Speaker 1: to talking to you in the future. It was my pleasure. 1084 00:56:50,680 --> 00:56:55,560 Speaker 1: Thank you so much, A huge thank you to our 1085 00:56:55,560 --> 00:57:00,760 Speaker 1: podcast team are indefatigable podcast team, our producer Gianna Palmer, 1086 00:57:01,120 --> 00:57:05,040 Speaker 1: our production assistant Nor Ritchie, our audio engineer Ryan Connor 1087 00:57:05,040 --> 00:57:08,800 Speaker 1: in l A and Shared O'Connell, who mixes the show. Hi, Jared, 1088 00:57:09,520 --> 00:57:12,640 Speaker 1: he's just waiting at me now. Plus Alison Bresnick on 1089 00:57:12,760 --> 00:57:19,320 Speaker 1: Keys just kidding, Alison Bresnik on Twitter, Instagram, Snapchat, Facebook, 1090 00:57:19,640 --> 00:57:23,439 Speaker 1: everything Social and Emily Beana on snares I mean, who 1091 00:57:23,520 --> 00:57:26,360 Speaker 1: keeps things moving at Katie Kirk Media Mark Phillips, By 1092 00:57:26,400 --> 00:57:29,480 Speaker 1: the way, thank you for writing our terrific theme music. 1093 00:57:29,640 --> 00:57:32,720 Speaker 1: I still think it's extremely catchy. I give it a 1094 00:57:32,880 --> 00:57:36,680 Speaker 1: ninety five for dancing. Katie and I are the executive 1095 00:57:36,680 --> 00:57:39,400 Speaker 1: producers of this show, and as we keep reminding you, 1096 00:57:39,400 --> 00:57:43,120 Speaker 1: you can email us at comments at currect podcast dot 1097 00:57:43,160 --> 00:57:45,840 Speaker 1: com or you can leave us a voicemail at nine 1098 00:57:45,880 --> 00:57:49,040 Speaker 1: to nine, two to four, four, six, three seven. We 1099 00:57:49,320 --> 00:57:52,520 Speaker 1: really love hearing from our listeners, good, bad, and ugly, 1100 00:57:52,600 --> 00:57:56,440 Speaker 1: well maybe not ugly, but you know, constructive criticism, nice feedback, 1101 00:57:56,600 --> 00:57:59,160 Speaker 1: all of it. We appreciate it, and we really do 1102 00:57:59,280 --> 00:58:01,080 Speaker 1: make this show for you not for the money, so 1103 00:58:01,320 --> 00:58:03,560 Speaker 1: thank you for the Gods for Dave. Sure, if you 1104 00:58:03,640 --> 00:58:06,480 Speaker 1: can't get enough of us, I'm Katie Curic on Twitter 1105 00:58:06,600 --> 00:58:10,040 Speaker 1: and Instagram, Katie dot Curic on Snapchat. You can find 1106 00:58:10,040 --> 00:58:13,760 Speaker 1: me on Facebook as well. Brian meanwhile, is at Twitter 1107 00:58:14,240 --> 00:58:18,080 Speaker 1: at Goldsmith b. So here's the part where we appeal 1108 00:58:18,120 --> 00:58:21,360 Speaker 1: to the better angels of your nature, just like Abraham Lincoln. 1109 00:58:21,680 --> 00:58:25,200 Speaker 1: Won't you please rate and review us on Apple Podcasts 1110 00:58:25,240 --> 00:58:29,280 Speaker 1: and subscribe as well. Your support helps make this show possible. 1111 00:58:29,440 --> 00:58:32,480 Speaker 1: So thank you very very much for listening, and we'll 1112 00:58:32,520 --> 00:58:33,439 Speaker 1: talk to you next time.