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Speaker 1: You're listening to the iHeartRadio and Coast to Coast DAM

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Speaker 1: Paranormal podcast network, where we offer you podcasts of the paranormal, supernatural,

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Speaker 1: and the unexplained. Get ready now for Beyond Contact with

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Speaker 1: Captain Rong.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to our podcast. Please be aware the thoughts and

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Speaker 2: opinions expressed by the host are their thoughts and opinions

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Speaker 2: only and do not reflect those of iHeartMedia, iHeartRadio, Coast

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Speaker 2: to Coast AM, employees of Premiere Networks, or their sponsors

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Speaker 2: and associates. We would like to encourage you to do

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Speaker 2: your own research and discover the subject matter for yourself.

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Speaker 3: Hey everyone, it's Captain Ron and each week are Beyond

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Speaker 3: Contact for the latest news in ufology, discuss some of

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Speaker 3: the classic cases and bring you the latest information from

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Speaker 3: the newest.

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Speaker 4: Cases as we talk with the top experts. Welcome to

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Speaker 4: Beyond Contact. I am Captain Ron, and today we are

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Speaker 4: speaking with doctor Stephen Finley. Doctor Finley is a professor

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Speaker 4: of Religious Studies and African American Studies at Louisiana State University.

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Speaker 4: Doctor Finley is also an author, and he defines religion

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Speaker 4: as a mechanism for people to comprehend their place and

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Speaker 4: purpose in the world. He has also become quite embroiled

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Speaker 4: in the entire UFO arena, and he looks at this

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Speaker 4: from a spiritual, cultural, and historical dimensions regarding UFOs. So

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Speaker 4: we're really happy to have him here today. Hey, Doc,

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Speaker 4: how you doing, Bud?

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Speaker 5: That was pretty good. I'm doing pretty well.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 4: It's ideal to have you on right now because I

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Speaker 4: feel like I have seen a bit of an uptick

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Speaker 4: of sorts tying the UFO phenomenon to religion, with prominent

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Speaker 4: people and researchers to talking about this and even contact

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Speaker 4: these such as Chris Bledsoe and a few others who

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Speaker 4: seem to feel like this is more of a religious experience.

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Speaker 4: Chris specifically claims that some of the orbs that he's

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Speaker 4: witnessed are in fact angels or angelic energy beings. I

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Speaker 4: think he calls them. Have you heard of this and

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Speaker 4: what are your thoughts about that?

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Speaker 5: I have heard of that?

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Speaker 6: Chris Bledsoe was saying in fact, I had an opportunity

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Speaker 6: to attend the gathering that he hosted one of those nights,

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Speaker 6: Monday night, yep. Contact in the Desert. Yeah, and that

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Speaker 6: was a really interesting meeting, I will say that for me,

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Speaker 6: religion is a primary lens in which to understand the

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Speaker 6: UFO phenomena.

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Speaker 5: One because we're not exactly sure what it is.

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Speaker 6: Sometimes it acts like you know, UFOs act like physical phenomena.

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Speaker 6: Sometimes they act like something much more paranormal. Whatever the

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Speaker 6: case is, UFOs make us think about our world and

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Speaker 6: what it means. So when I talk about religion, that's

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Speaker 6: primarily what I'm talking about. I'm talking about me how

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Speaker 6: people find meaning, just like you said in your intro,

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Speaker 6: how people understand their place in the world. And there's

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Speaker 6: no way that UFOs can't push those kinds of questions.

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Speaker 6: In fact, they do even if you're a scientist, they

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Speaker 6: still push our place in the world.

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Speaker 5: You know, what does it mean to be human? What

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Speaker 5: does our place in the in the universe then mean?

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Speaker 5: If they're let's just say they are physical objects, they

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Speaker 5: are evidence of intellect from other worlds, Like you know,

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Speaker 5: some research projects like Galileo project that are that still

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Speaker 5: pushes us to think about what's our place in the world.

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Speaker 5: And for me, that's a primary religious question.

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Speaker 4: No doubt about it. I feel the exact same way,

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Speaker 4: and I think it's been going on since we developed language, Yes,

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Speaker 4: as soon as we could think about It's the first

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Speaker 4: thing I would ask as a developing human being. You know,

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Speaker 4: it's like, what's over there? What's up in the sky?

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Speaker 4: What has anyone else been here? You know what I mean?

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Speaker 4: That's that's primal. I would say, that's right.

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Speaker 5: And language. I'm glad you started off there.

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Speaker 6: The language is really important because the phenomena, as people

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Speaker 6: have experience, is so complicate.

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Speaker 5: It we actually have difficulty assigning language.

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Speaker 4: To it absolutely because we're talking about what these terms

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Speaker 4: are that's right, call it this or that. It always

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Speaker 4: frustrates me because how do we know that's right? In farness?

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Speaker 4: We we don't know what to call it correct? Uh.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 4: We also hear over and over that some of these

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Speaker 4: people involved in the governments, as they call it legacy programs,

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Speaker 4: also feel that this may be tied to religion, and

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Speaker 4: that might be one of the key reasons they do

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Speaker 4: not want to let this UFO information out because they

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Speaker 4: believe it might be demonic. Have you heard this line

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Speaker 4: of thinking and what are your thoughts on it?

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Speaker 5: I have heard that line of thinking.

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Speaker 6: I think Ted Peters writes about, you know, religion in

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Speaker 6: that sense, especially from the Christian perspective. That's that's interesting

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Speaker 6: that folks in the government would take that perspective, because

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Speaker 6: of course, when I talk about religion, where folks like

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Speaker 6: Jeffrey Krapt will talk about religion and others who are trained,

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Speaker 6: instead of religion, we're talking about something much broader than

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Speaker 6: these institutional forms of religiosity, so that they can't be

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Speaker 6: captured by these structures, say Islam or Judaism, or Christianity

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Speaker 6: or Buddhism and so on. They push much more intrinsic

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Speaker 6: and basic questions about the nature of human beings, the

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Speaker 6: nature of the world and the universe, and like I said,

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Speaker 6: our place in it. So I appreciate the fact that

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Speaker 6: they're talking about religion, I would just like to push

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Speaker 6: a little bit about how they're talking about religion. And

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Speaker 6: if I might add one other thing. You know, this

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Speaker 6: whole idea of UFOs potentially being demonic, it's a highly

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Speaker 6: Christian idea, but it also seems to cohere with this

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Speaker 6: this government notion that they represent some kind of threat

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Speaker 6: to the planet and to the United States and so on,

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Speaker 6: And for me, that's sort of a problematic way of

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Speaker 6: understanding UFOs, which means that our response is military, right

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Speaker 6: when we really don't know what's going on here.

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Speaker 4: Well, a lot of people say that they purpose push

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Speaker 4: that narrative so we will funnel more money into you know,

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Speaker 4: the industrial military complex, and that kind my design, they

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Speaker 4: want us to feel that way. Doctor Greer and other

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Speaker 4: people feel that the aliens have not displayed violence or

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Speaker 4: harm in any way that as far as we know yet,

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Speaker 4: we seem to kind of push that narrative that perhaps

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Speaker 4: our military wants us to feel that way.

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Speaker 5: Sure, and let me respond to something else that you

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Speaker 5: just said.

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Speaker 6: I'm not totally convinced in the alien thesis, you know,

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Speaker 6: I think that is a possibility.

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Speaker 5: I guess what we have to.

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Speaker 6: Agree here is that the UFO phenomena may not be

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Speaker 6: one singular thing.

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Speaker 5: It may be a class of very diverse.

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Speaker 4: One thousand percent right.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, Because I'm also open to the to the thesis

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Speaker 6: such as Michael Masters Jacques Lay who have argued that

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Speaker 6: these are humans from the future, right who have mastered space,

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Speaker 6: time and so on.

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Speaker 5: It I find that really compelling thesis.

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Speaker 4: Frankly, there's ideas of you know, is it ultra compastorals?

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Speaker 4: I got a ton of ten pastorals that live on

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Speaker 4: this planet alongside of us. There's interdimensional there's all of

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Speaker 4: these things, and then you have the history of gin

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Speaker 4: and ghosts and different beings. Are these all the same thing?

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Speaker 4: I doubt it. There's probably more than one phenomenon going on, right, Yes.

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Speaker 6: That's right, And that's why I love the study of

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Speaker 6: UFOs actually because I enter this discussion, as you said

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Speaker 6: in your intro, from Black studies and religion, which means

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Speaker 6: that my perspective is going to be very different, and

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Speaker 6: in terms of UFO UFP studies, probably a very unique

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Speaker 6: perspective for sure.

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Speaker 4: Specifically, I want to ask you about what about the Bible.

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Speaker 4: For example, there's that guy Bury Downing wrote a book

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Speaker 4: back in the sixties, and there's others that have written

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Speaker 4: books about the link between the Bible itself and specifically UFOs.

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Speaker 4: Have you seen a correlation of references to ets and

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Speaker 4: UFOs in the Bible.

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Speaker 6: Let me first say that I have that book that

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Speaker 6: one of my fraternity brothers actually sent me a copy

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Speaker 6: of it that I that I haven't read yet because

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Speaker 6: he knew that was right up my island for sure.

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Speaker 5: And not that long ago.

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Speaker 6: He sent me a copy that that book is probably

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Speaker 6: a classic, given given when it was written, and at

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Speaker 6: some point I had to get to it. I will

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Speaker 6: say that with respect to the Bible, there are a

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Speaker 6: lot of ways of looking at it. I think the

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Speaker 6: most frequent connection that people make is with this idea

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Speaker 6: of a charriot you're fully aware of, like with Elijah

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Speaker 6: and will within will. That's that's exactly right. And Ezekiel's

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Speaker 6: will within a will is particularly relevant for for some

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Speaker 6: of the groups that I study.

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Speaker 5: And so I do see all of those connections.

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Speaker 6: The groups that I study make explicit connections to some

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Speaker 6: of these texts, especially Ezekiel in that in that first chapter. Again,

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Speaker 6: as a person who's approaching religion in UFOs, as a scholar,

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Speaker 6: I don't have a perspective in terms of what I

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Speaker 6: find most compelling in terms of, you know, something I

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Speaker 6: might believe. I'm interested in all of it and how

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Speaker 6: folks use the Bible and other sources to make sense

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Speaker 6: of the phenomena, including some of these texts we're discussing.

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Speaker 4: For sure, Well, that's what I want to ask you.

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Speaker 4: Are there other texts that we see these sorts of

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Speaker 4: UFOs in, for example, Besides the Bible, I think.

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Speaker 6: People make reference often to Moses and the whole saga

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Speaker 6: the children of Israel, you know, led by what was

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Speaker 6: that a flame or something like that. That's a reference

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Speaker 6: in Hebrew Bible, Old Testament that I hear often. They're

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Speaker 6: clearly a good handful of texts that are really important

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Speaker 6: for folks in UFO and religion, you know, especially in

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Speaker 6: the smaller religions, like the groups that I study, like

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Speaker 6: the like the Nation of Islam, which I know we're

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Speaker 6: going to get to, or these two black women called

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Speaker 6: the UFO Twins, the United New Wabbian Nation of Moors,

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Speaker 6: even Sunrah, you know, the great jazz artists and poet.

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Speaker 6: I consider all of those religious perspectives of UFOs and

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Speaker 6: transport and cosmic realities and even aliens. All of those

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Speaker 6: for me are religious perspectives because you have you have

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Speaker 6: people really engaging these ideas is and trying to make

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Speaker 6: sense of them over against them. They're thinking about who

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Speaker 6: they are, where they come from, what is the meaning

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Speaker 6: of life?

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Speaker 5: And again all of those are religious questions.

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Speaker 4: There again, they're primal too. When we come back, we're

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Speaker 4: going to talk more with doctor Finley and ask him

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Speaker 4: about some of the paintings and other depictions of UFOs

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Speaker 4: in religious art throughout the years. You're listening to Beyond

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Speaker 4: Contact on the iHeartRadio and Coast to Coast AM Paranormal

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Speaker 4: podcast network. We are back on Beyond Contact. We're speaking

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Speaker 4: with doctor Stephen Finley. Doc, what do you think about

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Speaker 4: some of these religious paintings from the Renaissance period. I'm

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Speaker 4: sure you've seen these. There are many of them, you know.

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Speaker 4: I try to keep a very open in mind to

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Speaker 4: these subjects and be very objective and rational as I can.

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Speaker 4: And I got to tell you, I've seen some of

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Speaker 4: these paintings, and from my eyes, that does look like

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Speaker 4: a guy in a UFO craft. I don't know what

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Speaker 4: else it could be. Like. It's this round craft, he's

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Speaker 4: sitting in it, he's holding controls, he's up in the stars.

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Speaker 4: I don't know how else to interpret that other than

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Speaker 4: not necessarily UFO, but certainly a spacecraft or something. Right.

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Speaker 6: I've seen those, some of those pictures, and I find

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Speaker 6: them compelling to and other pictures like pictures of the

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Speaker 6: Virgin and child.

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Speaker 4: Sure with it in the background they're looking yes, yeh.

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Speaker 5: That's exactly right, you know.

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Speaker 6: I had an interesting conversation when I was at another

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Speaker 6: conference in San Francisco just last year. I was talking

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Speaker 6: about the work that I do with one of the

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Speaker 6: attendees who was from Japan. He was accompanying an actual

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Speaker 6: member of their parliament who was in charge of the

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Speaker 6: study of UAP and we were talking about the connection

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Speaker 6: even between Japan and Japanese. And then they said and

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Speaker 6: he was talking about and showed me a picture of

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Speaker 6: an old Japanese painting. I don't know if you've ever

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Speaker 6: seen those with what he sees as a UFO in

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Speaker 6: the background.

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Speaker 5: And I thought that was.

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Speaker 6: Really interesting, especially for the work that I do, because

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Speaker 6: even the Nation of Islam claims that the origin of

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Speaker 6: what they call the Motherwheel was in Japan in nineteen

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Speaker 6: twenty nine. They say it was built in the Japanese

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Speaker 6: Islands in nineteen twenty nine.

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Speaker 5: And that was super interesting.

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Speaker 4: Oh very much. So, you know, there's so many different

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Speaker 4: interpretations of the UFO phenomenon throughout history. In Communion, the

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Speaker 4: book by Whitley Strieber, he points out some old accounts

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Speaker 4: that seem like they could have been an alien experience

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Speaker 4: from people. In fact, he tells one story of fairies

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Speaker 4: that came down from the trees. Do you think that

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Speaker 4: this is sort of simply people putting their own lens

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Speaker 4: on a unique experience, like they didn't know what to

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Speaker 4: call it. Like one person's ghosts is another person's dead

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Speaker 4: relative is another religious figure is another et for another person.

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Speaker 5: Sure. I like Whitley. I know Whitley.

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Speaker 6: I've been in a lot of meetings with him, private

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Speaker 6: and public. I find much of what he has to

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Speaker 6: say compelling. I know some of the counts that he's

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Speaker 6: talking about. I think there's a very real chance in

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Speaker 6: some of these fairy type of counts, they didn't have

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Speaker 6: a language to describe what they were talking about, and

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Speaker 6: they could very well be UFO encounters. At the same time,

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Speaker 6: You're absolutely right, we could be projecting, we could be

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Speaker 6: trying to fit various phenomena into this UFO phenomena when

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Speaker 6: they might fit or might not fit. But I think

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Speaker 6: it's quite possible that some of these early accounts were

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Speaker 6: actually UFO appearances.

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Speaker 4: How do you think that the cultural influences affect somebody's

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Speaker 4: interpretation of some of these paranormal or extraterrestrial experiences.

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Speaker 6: Well, I think, for example, the groups that I study

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Speaker 6: are primarily African American, and when they encounter UFOs, they're

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Speaker 6: always making connections to Black experience, always making connections to

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Speaker 6: to sharecropping and slavery and racial violence including lynching and

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Speaker 6: so on. And so I think culture is and experience

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Speaker 6: are two very important lenses, and everybody has a lens.

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Speaker 6: Most of us have multiple lenses that intersect and overlap.

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Speaker 6: And I think for many African Americans who couldn't find

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Speaker 6: adequate meaning here outside of again the sort of historical

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Speaker 6: realities that I just mentioned and these narratives of black inferiority,

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Speaker 6: took these experiences and saw themselves as having a greater

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Speaker 6: existence that wasn't simply contained within this earthly reality where

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Speaker 6: they were slaves or where they were oppressed, and saw

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Speaker 6: out in the cosmos possibilities for who they might be,

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Speaker 6: and so used those experiences to question white supremacists and

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Speaker 6: anti black notions of who black people are. And so

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Speaker 6: that's just a very good example of how people take

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Speaker 6: experience and culture and use it then to think specifically

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Speaker 6: in their particular situation about who they are.

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Speaker 4: You know, you've pointed out the analogy. You know, that's

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Speaker 4: pretty clear of how some people would equate an alien abduction.

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Speaker 4: How it's an analogous to when African Americans were picked

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Speaker 4: up by different looking people, white people, yes, put on

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Speaker 4: a ship, taken for a long journey to a strange

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Speaker 4: foreign land, you know, during the slave trade. Clearly there

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Speaker 4: are parallels to the horrific slavery experiences they went through,

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Speaker 4: as well as accounts of alien abduction experiences. This has

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Speaker 4: influenced some people's some different groups of people's UFO experiences differently.

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Speaker 4: You know, how would you speak to that?

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Speaker 6: Well, first of all, I think that's a really important

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Speaker 6: analogy that I can't take credit for. The afrofuturists actually

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Speaker 6: came up with that analogy, and they want to see, Well.

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Speaker 4: I think anybody on its face, it's so obvious I

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Speaker 4: think right here and come up with that, you know

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Speaker 4: what I.

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Speaker 6: Mean, I totally agree with you because to me, I mean,

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Speaker 6: how else would you see that as an alien other

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Speaker 6: than an alien reduction? I'm sure see, you know, they're

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Speaker 6: in Africa, the ships show up, they've never seen white people,

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Speaker 6: and automatically they're mythologizing about them. Of course, these are

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Speaker 6: dead relatives who have returned, right, which I think is

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Speaker 6: a really important insight because now you have all these

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Speaker 6: people talking about the relationship between UFOs and death and

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Speaker 6: souls and which has an analogy and the very beginnings

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Speaker 6: of the modern black experience in the West, I either

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Speaker 6: with the slave trade, right, And so for me, viewing

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Speaker 6: UFOs through Black studies like I do and religion opens

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Speaker 6: up all kinds of possibilities that are analogous to the

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Speaker 6: ways that people are talking about what UFOs might be.

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Speaker 4: Absolutely, you know, interestingly, there are also some very powerful

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Speaker 4: alien contact accounts from African tribes like the Dogon tribe

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Speaker 4: of Mali for example. These are classic UFO tales that

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Speaker 4: are really intriguing to me. You know, ancient people have

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Speaker 4: said some of these fascinating things. How could they know

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Speaker 4: with the Dogan new you know, the star map example,

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Speaker 4: What are your thoughts about that?

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Speaker 6: I totally agree. You know, I have a friend named

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Speaker 6: doctor Marcus Reed, Marcus Read, who actually talks about the

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Speaker 6: do gods in the context of UFOs. But it's also

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Speaker 6: interesting that when Bootsie Collins if you remember that name

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Speaker 6: in George wars Ye from Parliament, that's right, that's right.

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Speaker 6: So when they had their UFO encounter, that's one of

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Speaker 6: the first connections that they made. George Clinton talks about

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Speaker 6: the dogons, No way, he connected immediately to the dogons

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Speaker 6: and their stargates, just like you suggested.

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Speaker 5: Wow.

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Speaker 6: And that's and that's the point to me about UFOs

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Speaker 6: in Black experience. They're always signaling how it's connected to

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Speaker 6: aspects of Black culture, ancient and modern and black experience.

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Speaker 6: And that's just one example of it.

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Speaker 4: That's really interesting, you know. I think it's also interesting

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Speaker 4: that you have said that some of these UFO accounts

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Speaker 4: you've heard from black individuals claim that they've seen black pilots.

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Speaker 4: I find this absolutely fascinating. I wonder what you think

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Speaker 4: it could mean to me at points like it could

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Speaker 4: possibly be projecting or manifesting their vision somehow, or perhaps

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Speaker 4: even you could go as far as to say that

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Speaker 4: the aliens are putting on this facade or this look

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Speaker 4: because maybe the contact ee is expecting that, or they're

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Speaker 4: trying to make it comfortable for them, or so, what

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Speaker 4: are your thoughts about it?

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Speaker 6: First of all, I think that's an excellent question, and

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Speaker 6: again I have to bracket my response in the context

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Speaker 6: of being a researcher in scholar because what I want

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Speaker 6: to suggest is that when people like the Nation of

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Speaker 6: Islam say they've seen the pilots, pilots represent all the

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Speaker 6: races within blackness, which isn't just like African, they're African Americans.

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Speaker 6: For them, Asians, Native Americans, LATINX are all part of

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Speaker 6: what they what they mean when they say black, And

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Speaker 6: for the Nation of Islam.

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Speaker 4: It basically could say non white basically in a sense innocence,

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Speaker 4: but especially LATINX or Latino and Latina, Asian, Native American.

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Speaker 6: And African African American, and they say that the pilots

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Speaker 6: represent all of those particular groups. Now, when it comes

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Speaker 6: to what's his name, the UFO summoner who used to

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Speaker 6: live in Las Vegashweh Prophet Yahweh Yahweh, is much more

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Speaker 6: literal when he says these pilots which he which he

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Speaker 6: claimed to have witnessed, are black. He means black like me, right,

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Speaker 6: not something more complicated like the Nation of Islav. I

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Speaker 6: don't know what to make of that, except that for

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Speaker 6: them it's literal. They mean they're literally black. Whether you

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Speaker 6: mean Prophet Yahweh black like me or Nation Thislam black

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Speaker 6: like this.

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Speaker 5: Larger group of human beings. They mean it literally.

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Speaker 6: I can't tell you what that what that means, except

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Speaker 6: that there are some groups the Nation of Islam. Wesley

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Speaker 6: Muhammad in some of his new work, he's a member

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Speaker 6: of the Nation of Islam and the research team is

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Speaker 6: arguing for the premissy of these pilots as black. For him,

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Speaker 6: there's the most evidence of that. And this idea of

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Speaker 6: the grays or Nordic for him comes later, right. He

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Speaker 6: ties it to a literature a great literary writer from England, HG. Wells,

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Speaker 6: who wrote War of the Worlds. He wrote another book

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Speaker 6: called The Millions Something. But Wesley Muhammad is saying that's

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Speaker 6: where the idea that they might not be black, that

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Speaker 6: they might be Nordic or something else comes from. And

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Speaker 6: he's saying that that's a projection, that that's a projection.

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Speaker 6: But again, these are all religious perspectives, yes, right, and

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Speaker 6: we're all familiar with War of the Worlds. But here

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Speaker 6: points to another text by HD. Wesn't I'm sorry that

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Speaker 6: I'm forgetting the name of it, in which H. G.

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Speaker 6: Wells wrote about future human beings and what they might

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Speaker 6: look like far in the future, and he cast them

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Speaker 6: as much more Nordic in their evolution. He's saying, that's

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Speaker 6: where the idea first originated that they might be something

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Speaker 6: other than black.

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Speaker 5: And that's, of course Wesley Muhammad's work.

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Speaker 4: When we come back, we're going to talk more with

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Speaker 4: doctor Finley. Here about you brought up Jeffrey Crapele. I

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Speaker 4: want to ask you about one of his works. You're

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Speaker 4: listening to Beyond Contact right here on the iHeartRadio and

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Speaker 4: Coast to Coast AM Paranormal Podcast Network. We are back

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Speaker 4: on Beyond Contact. We're speaking with doctor Stephen Finley. Your friend.

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Speaker 4: Doctor Jeffrey Kreipel wrote a book called The Flip called

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Speaker 4: Epiphanies of the Mind and Future of Knowledge. In it,

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Speaker 4: he refers to the flip as the moment when somebody's

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Speaker 4: consciousness radically shifts, whether through like a mystical experience, trauma,

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Speaker 4: or like another intense encounter like a UFO event for example,

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Speaker 4: a siting or an abduction or contact. The experience, he

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Speaker 4: suggests this is the type of transformative event that challenges

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Speaker 4: our understanding of reality, leading people to question the nature

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Speaker 4: of consciousness, space, and time. Meaning really, it's a shift

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Speaker 4: in how we perceive and understand the world around us,

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Speaker 4: which is what you and I have been talking about.

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Speaker 4: What are your thoughts on that concept.

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Speaker 5: Well, first of all, Jeff is a very good friend.

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Speaker 6: I was just texting with with him a few days ago,

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Speaker 6: and we're constantly having these kinds of conversations about the

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Speaker 6: nature of UFOs, nature of reality, and regarding the book

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Speaker 6: The Flip, which I've read two or three times at least.

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Speaker 5: I love the book.

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Speaker 6: I love this idea of these epiphanies, especially that second chapter.

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Speaker 6: I think it's a second chapter that's specifically talking about

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Speaker 6: scientists or Flip scientists, and I just love the idea

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Speaker 6: that there is some experience of consciousness that radically alters

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Speaker 6: how people understand themselves and the world, and there's no

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Speaker 6: going back. Whether they had a scientific, materialist perspective or

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Speaker 6: a religious perspective, they have this epiphany in which sometimes

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Speaker 6: their view of reality is so expansive that neither of

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Speaker 6: those realities, religion nor science can capture how they understand reality.

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Speaker 4: I would think the UFO experience would immediately transform anybody.

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Speaker 4: That's an epiphany for pretty much anyone.

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Speaker 5: That's exactly right now now.

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Speaker 6: What I do think Jeff is talking about theirs, especially

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Speaker 6: related to institutional really right that those are no longer helpful,

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Speaker 6: because I still want to see this epiphany, this shifted,

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Speaker 6: this radical change in consciousness as a religious experience.

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Speaker 5: Because it totally changes how people see reality and understand themselves.

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Speaker 6: And I think sometimes the only language that people can

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Speaker 6: find to talk about it again, here's that concept of

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Speaker 6: language again and assigning language to it is the language

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Speaker 6: of the mystic. Like sometimes that's the only language that's

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Speaker 6: that's available to us, even if it's just analogous after

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Speaker 6: these these epiphanies.

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Speaker 5: I love all of Jeff's work.

436
00:23:31,440 --> 00:23:34,359
Speaker 6: But that book is a special one because it's written

437
00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:37,280
Speaker 6: to folks who who might be a materialists, who might

438
00:23:37,359 --> 00:23:42,520
Speaker 6: otherwise dismiss UFOs, especially if they're scientists or medical professionals

439
00:23:42,560 --> 00:23:45,200
Speaker 6: and so on, and so it really is an attempt

440
00:23:45,680 --> 00:23:48,720
Speaker 6: to take that whole community of and to give examples

441
00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:52,200
Speaker 6: of scholars and scientists who have had this epiphany.

442
00:23:52,320 --> 00:23:55,119
Speaker 4: Right, it's once it happens to you, then suddenly you

443
00:23:55,280 --> 00:23:58,560
Speaker 4: flip that's way about right now you're on the other side.

444
00:23:58,840 --> 00:24:00,600
Speaker 4: You know, we all have that. A lot of people.

445
00:24:00,680 --> 00:24:04,200
Speaker 5: Whatever that other side might be, though, what is that space.

446
00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:08,040
Speaker 4: Well, it's it's you believe something beyond the material three

447
00:24:08,119 --> 00:24:10,280
Speaker 4: D Newtonian world that we live in. That's what I think.

448
00:24:11,720 --> 00:24:12,520
Speaker 5: I totally agree.

449
00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:15,199
Speaker 6: But even that space, I'm not sure that we really

450
00:24:15,359 --> 00:24:17,320
Speaker 6: we really can talk about concrete.

451
00:24:17,560 --> 00:24:18,120
Speaker 5: I mean, I think.

452
00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:23,600
Speaker 4: There are people that are locked into the material world,

453
00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:26,440
Speaker 4: and I think that I've certainly flipped that there's more.

454
00:24:26,280 --> 00:24:26,600
Speaker 3: There is.

455
00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:27,840
Speaker 4: I don't know anything, but there's more.

456
00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:29,400
Speaker 5: That word more is so important.

457
00:24:29,720 --> 00:24:33,240
Speaker 6: Actually more is the keyword here, which William James used

458
00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:36,640
Speaker 6: to talk about religion. That there is more is maybe

459
00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:39,480
Speaker 6: the primary experience. Maybe maybe one way of us describing

460
00:24:39,560 --> 00:24:41,040
Speaker 6: the Flipp's.

461
00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:46,359
Speaker 4: Title for you doc, There's more, More and more. Good title.

462
00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:48,520
Speaker 5: I think if I could get to my books, if

463
00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:50,720
Speaker 5: I can, there you go. Unless it keeps me so busy,

464
00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:51,800
Speaker 5: I'm trying to get to my book.

465
00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:57,080
Speaker 4: There are certain topics to me that transcend political affiliation

466
00:24:57,440 --> 00:25:01,160
Speaker 4: or race or gender or anything else. Metal, cannabis, for example,

467
00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:04,840
Speaker 4: or of course the UFO phenomenon. I understand the prominence

468
00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:08,040
Speaker 4: of UFOs in the belief system of the Nation of Islam,

469
00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:11,880
Speaker 4: but in reality that membership is relatively low. Let's say,

470
00:25:11,920 --> 00:25:15,439
Speaker 4: thirty or forty thousand people out of nearly fifty million

471
00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:19,360
Speaker 4: Black Americans, right, So how do you think in general

472
00:25:19,520 --> 00:25:23,440
Speaker 4: the broader Black community overall looks at UFOs and ets

473
00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:25,920
Speaker 4: as a whole, and is it different than the white

474
00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:28,440
Speaker 4: community does I don't think it should be, but I'm

475
00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:31,480
Speaker 4: asking you if you think it's different the nation of Islam.

476
00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:34,000
Speaker 5: You know, it's hard to quantify their membership, but I

477
00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:37,919
Speaker 5: think some scholars have tried to guess. Lawrence Momea was

478
00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:41,360
Speaker 5: also on my PSD committee. He's gone now, but one

479
00:25:41,400 --> 00:25:44,120
Speaker 5: time he asked me to estimate their membership at least

480
00:25:44,119 --> 00:25:46,800
Speaker 5: at its height, at its height, and I estimated maybe

481
00:25:46,840 --> 00:25:49,639
Speaker 5: seventy five to one hundred thousand. We really just don't know,

482
00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:51,080
Speaker 5: but it is relatively small.

483
00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:52,919
Speaker 6: Although I also have to point out that there are

484
00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:56,160
Speaker 6: numerous nations of Islam tips not just the way, of course.

485
00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:58,560
Speaker 4: But what about the broader communication. What about the fifty

486
00:25:58,600 --> 00:25:59,520
Speaker 4: million Americans?

487
00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:02,479
Speaker 6: I think actually most of them, in my experience, are

488
00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:05,239
Speaker 6: open to the idea that there is something else and

489
00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:07,119
Speaker 6: that UFOs might be read.

490
00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:10,439
Speaker 4: Okay, then why don't we see more black researchers in

491
00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:13,800
Speaker 4: the UFO community because it is very rare to come

492
00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:14,360
Speaker 4: across them.

493
00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:17,639
Speaker 5: I agree, I think until my work.

494
00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:19,920
Speaker 6: I'm not sure that we tried to connect some of

495
00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:23,320
Speaker 6: these dots that there are all of these African American

496
00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:27,360
Speaker 6: UFO encounters and what we might call UFO religions, there

497
00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:30,520
Speaker 6: just haven't been that many people in the community. And

498
00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:34,680
Speaker 6: also because uthology has been historically white and exclusive, and

499
00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:37,080
Speaker 6: you know, we're trying to break through that now.

500
00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:39,800
Speaker 4: I don't even understand that at all though, because like

501
00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:42,960
Speaker 4: even you know, Bud Hopkins and doctor Jacobs and these

502
00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:46,320
Speaker 4: guys who have studied this and they have lots of data,

503
00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:50,080
Speaker 4: they tell me that it is truly an experience that

504
00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:54,479
Speaker 4: transcends all genders, all races, all age groups. It is

505
00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:58,560
Speaker 4: genuinely right across the board, equally dispersed. So then why

506
00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:01,320
Speaker 4: do we think, why would the African American community be

507
00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:02,720
Speaker 4: underrepresented here?

508
00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:07,720
Speaker 6: Because it is only my only push to Jacobs and others,

509
00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:11,920
Speaker 6: I would say, yes, there's a universality, but there's also

510
00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:17,080
Speaker 6: a particularity in how groups experience, encounter and make sense

511
00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:19,360
Speaker 6: of these and what do we do with that tension?

512
00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:21,359
Speaker 6: So that's what I'm trying to get at. What do

513
00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:25,000
Speaker 6: we do with the tension, say, between how African Americans

514
00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:29,240
Speaker 6: such as the Nation of Islam and others interpret UFOs

515
00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:32,840
Speaker 6: and the cosmos as uniquely related to black experience and

516
00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:36,639
Speaker 6: its universality. What do we do with that, because we

517
00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:39,399
Speaker 6: can't throw one away for the other. Right, Sure, it's

518
00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:45,080
Speaker 6: a phenomena that happens across time and geography. And yet

519
00:27:45,119 --> 00:27:49,399
Speaker 6: there's this other tradition folks in these religious groups, African

520
00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:53,080
Speaker 6: American religious groups claim is older that goes back before

521
00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:58,040
Speaker 6: nineteen forty seven, right where UFOs are understood as much

522
00:27:58,080 --> 00:28:01,600
Speaker 6: more familiar as something you know, equally black. My question

523
00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:04,200
Speaker 6: is not about the universality, but what do we do

524
00:28:04,280 --> 00:28:07,240
Speaker 6: with the tension between universality and the particular?

525
00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:07,960
Speaker 5: What do we do with that?

526
00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:10,119
Speaker 6: How do we theorize that? What do we make of that?

527
00:28:10,119 --> 00:28:11,480
Speaker 6: That's the question that burdens me.

528
00:28:11,760 --> 00:28:13,840
Speaker 4: Do you think that the black community trust the government

529
00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:14,920
Speaker 4: less than other races?

530
00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:16,159
Speaker 5: Wouldn't have reason to?

531
00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:17,240
Speaker 4: Well?

532
00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:22,280
Speaker 6: Sure, I mean when you think about when you think

533
00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:26,120
Speaker 6: about you know, institutional anti blackness, which was codified in slavery,

534
00:28:26,760 --> 00:28:29,160
Speaker 6: one hundred years of lynchings in which nobody ever got

535
00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:35,320
Speaker 6: you know, convictedable to Jim crow right, prison industrial complex,

536
00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:39,440
Speaker 6: with which uniquely targeted African American communities and black men

537
00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:43,320
Speaker 6: in particular, the war owned drugs as a government project,

538
00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:47,640
Speaker 6: and all the other conspiracies, some of which have valid experience.

539
00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:51,680
Speaker 6: I question whether the government had my best interests at

540
00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:52,080
Speaker 6: heart too.

541
00:28:52,280 --> 00:28:54,640
Speaker 4: I agree with that. That's that's that's pretty obvious.

542
00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:58,320
Speaker 6: It's really tough then to you know, to trust this government.

543
00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:01,880
Speaker 6: And so when you think from that perspective about UFOs,

544
00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:06,840
Speaker 6: then maybe UFOs in some sense are some rescue, some relief.

545
00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:09,120
Speaker 6: When you look at my book, there's a piece of

546
00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:11,080
Speaker 6: art on the cover. I don't know if you've ever

547
00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:15,720
Speaker 6: seen the cover of I. All right, so that's an

548
00:29:15,720 --> 00:29:19,840
Speaker 6: original piece of art by Delano Dunn, and it appears

549
00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:23,000
Speaker 6: to be two black women in what might be slave

550
00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:27,080
Speaker 6: guard and above their heads is this what looks like

551
00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:30,480
Speaker 6: a UFO. Two University Press did a really super job

552
00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:32,840
Speaker 6: finding that work of art and suggesting that I use

553
00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:34,800
Speaker 6: that as a cover for my book.

554
00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:37,400
Speaker 5: They did that, not me. But I think the title of.

555
00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:39,560
Speaker 6: That work is really interesting. I mean, the title of

556
00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:42,760
Speaker 6: that work of art is called Relieved of the Weight.

557
00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:46,280
Speaker 6: Relieved of the Weight, And in some ways I'd like

558
00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:49,480
Speaker 6: to see that maybe as an interpretation of my entire book,

559
00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:54,720
Speaker 6: that somehow UFOs in the black experience are seen as

560
00:29:54,720 --> 00:30:00,560
Speaker 6: some reprieve or respite from white supremacists anti blackness, an

561
00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:06,160
Speaker 6: existence that was circumscribed by anti black violence, institutional anti blackness,

562
00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:08,440
Speaker 6: constitutional anti blackness.

563
00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:12,880
Speaker 5: And for me, it makes perfect sense then that folks

564
00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:13,360
Speaker 5: would look to.

565
00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:15,880
Speaker 6: The cosmos who've had that kind of experience, that they

566
00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:16,720
Speaker 6: would look out there.

567
00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:19,040
Speaker 4: That makes sense to me too. I get it. When

568
00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:21,200
Speaker 4: we come back, Doc, we're gonna take a quick break here,

569
00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:24,440
Speaker 4: we're gonna look further at the cosmology of the Nation

570
00:30:24,480 --> 00:30:27,400
Speaker 4: of Islam and their UFO thoughts. You're listening to Beyond

571
00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:29,920
Speaker 4: Contact right here on the iHeartRadio and Coast to Coast

572
00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:53,840
Speaker 4: AM Paranormal Podcast Network. We are back on Beyond Contact.

573
00:30:53,840 --> 00:30:56,840
Speaker 4: It's Captain Ron talking to doctor Stephen Finley. Doc. Do

574
00:30:56,920 --> 00:31:00,880
Speaker 4: you see parallels between the Nation of Islam's UFO cosmology

575
00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:04,640
Speaker 4: and other ancient religious apocalyptic traditions.

576
00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:09,040
Speaker 6: Sure, I think this idea that life in some ways

577
00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:11,720
Speaker 6: started out in the cosmos, or that there is life

578
00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:14,160
Speaker 6: in the cosmos, we see parallels all over the place.

579
00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:17,600
Speaker 6: And for the Nation of Islam, African American life or

580
00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:21,040
Speaker 6: black life, because it's not strictly African American existed for

581
00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:24,800
Speaker 6: sixty six trillion years. Some of that existence was in

582
00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:28,240
Speaker 6: the cosmos, particularly on Mars and Venus, where, for the

583
00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:31,440
Speaker 6: Nation of Islam black people lived twelve hundred years and

584
00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:34,840
Speaker 6: grew nine feet tall. Right, and particularly those those planets

585
00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:38,400
Speaker 6: show up all over the place in UFO ideas, right,

586
00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:41,520
Speaker 6: not simply the Nation of Islam, especially Mars and Venus.

587
00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:41,760
Speaker 5: Right.

588
00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:45,280
Speaker 6: Of course Sunra was talking about Saturn and called the Saturn,

589
00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:48,400
Speaker 6: But Mars and Venus have a particular place in UFO

590
00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:51,720
Speaker 6: low and mythology. And so there are those parallels that

591
00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:55,480
Speaker 6: are obvious life in the cosmos, the connection between life

592
00:31:55,560 --> 00:31:58,840
Speaker 6: on Earth and life in the cosmos, this idea that life,

593
00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:01,720
Speaker 6: what we might call human life, might be older than

594
00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:04,560
Speaker 6: what we understand here, that it may have an origin

595
00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:07,360
Speaker 6: elsewhere out in the cosmos. There are all those kinds

596
00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:10,840
Speaker 6: of parallels, and the Nation of Islam seize themselves uniquely

597
00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:13,640
Speaker 6: to the cosmos and again to Mars and Venus, but

598
00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:15,040
Speaker 6: also to UFOs.

599
00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:18,200
Speaker 4: Let me ask you this, if we got irrefutable proof

600
00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:21,880
Speaker 4: of alien visitation, or we get official Big D disclosure,

601
00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:23,800
Speaker 4: let's say, what effect do you think that would have

602
00:32:23,840 --> 00:32:25,160
Speaker 4: on religions around the world.

603
00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:28,880
Speaker 5: That's the million dollar question. I think some religions would.

604
00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:31,320
Speaker 6: Try to incorporate it in a way to preserve their

605
00:32:31,360 --> 00:32:34,479
Speaker 6: systems and their authorities. And of course religions have already

606
00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:36,800
Speaker 6: tried to do that, right you mentioned you mentioned one

607
00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:39,480
Speaker 6: book when we first started, the writer was talking about

608
00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:41,720
Speaker 6: UFOs in the Bible, for example.

609
00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:43,120
Speaker 5: That's one way. I think.

610
00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:46,960
Speaker 6: Another way is for religion to be very dismissive and

611
00:32:47,080 --> 00:32:49,880
Speaker 6: maybe call them demonic, and of course we see that

612
00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:50,800
Speaker 6: already happens.

613
00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:51,800
Speaker 5: But I think in the.

614
00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:55,920
Speaker 6: Bigger picture, for these institutional religions, I think UFOs might

615
00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:59,720
Speaker 6: represent and aliens might represent a threat to their their hedgemoon,

616
00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:01,560
Speaker 6: their sense of power and authority.

617
00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:04,640
Speaker 4: You know, there are even religions that are based on

618
00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:10,440
Speaker 4: the alien idea, like Unarious and Relians, and you know,

619
00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:11,560
Speaker 4: what are your thoughts on those?

620
00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:15,520
Speaker 6: Well, that's a good question, because I'm talking about these established, large,

621
00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:17,680
Speaker 6: particularly monotheistic religions, So.

622
00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:19,800
Speaker 4: Of course that's what I meant you ask that question.

623
00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:21,600
Speaker 4: It dawned on me when you were saying that that

624
00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:23,240
Speaker 4: there there are these others.

625
00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:27,080
Speaker 6: Yea, for those religious groups, you know, there's one hundred

626
00:33:27,080 --> 00:33:30,800
Speaker 6: percent absolute proof depending on what that look like, and

627
00:33:30,840 --> 00:33:32,960
Speaker 6: what the contours and features of this proof?

628
00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:35,120
Speaker 4: Will we all become relians at that point?

629
00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:37,080
Speaker 5: I mean, that's that's the point. They might see it

630
00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:37,760
Speaker 5: as validates.

631
00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:40,120
Speaker 4: They would say it that way for sure.

632
00:33:40,040 --> 00:33:42,200
Speaker 5: As their own you know, for their own existence.

633
00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:45,160
Speaker 6: And you know, since since you asked these questions, you know,

634
00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:46,920
Speaker 6: I think, I think that I want to be fair

635
00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:50,320
Speaker 6: to these religious groups. I'm not one who wants to

636
00:33:50,320 --> 00:33:53,800
Speaker 6: marginalize and see these groups as people who are crazy.

637
00:33:54,040 --> 00:33:58,560
Speaker 6: I think their religions just like these other institutionalized religions

638
00:33:58,600 --> 00:34:01,640
Speaker 6: who you know, many people this and respect. I want

639
00:34:01,680 --> 00:34:04,040
Speaker 6: to see them all as after the same thing. You know,

640
00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:06,080
Speaker 6: who are we, where we come from? What does all

641
00:34:06,120 --> 00:34:08,440
Speaker 6: this stuff mean? And so you know, we tend to

642
00:34:08,440 --> 00:34:12,160
Speaker 6: marginalize these religions where UFOs are are central.

643
00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:14,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, but that's understandable, you can imagine because I think

644
00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:17,400
Speaker 4: to most people, those are tougher pills to swallow.

645
00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:19,879
Speaker 6: I do, but they're only tougher pills to swallow because

646
00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:20,760
Speaker 6: they're not our pills.

647
00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:23,600
Speaker 5: Right, there's somebody else's pills.

648
00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:23,759
Speaker 4: You know.

649
00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:28,160
Speaker 6: It's interesting. I teach one class as a semester at LSU.

650
00:34:28,640 --> 00:34:31,880
Speaker 6: I taught a lower division African American Religion class, so

651
00:34:31,880 --> 00:34:35,120
Speaker 6: it's a lecture class. The section that the students had

652
00:34:35,160 --> 00:34:38,040
Speaker 6: the most trouble with in this African American Religion course

653
00:34:38,360 --> 00:34:41,520
Speaker 6: was when I talked about UFOs and these African American

654
00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:43,399
Speaker 6: religious UFO traditions.

655
00:34:43,560 --> 00:34:46,439
Speaker 5: They had the most trouble with that. I couldn't understand why.

656
00:34:46,440 --> 00:34:50,680
Speaker 5: I'm like, of all the ideas we've talked about that.

657
00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:54,359
Speaker 4: I've read the isla Nation of Islam stuff. It's it's

658
00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:56,640
Speaker 4: a tough thing to get your head around.

659
00:34:56,920 --> 00:34:58,360
Speaker 5: But I wasn't even talking about just that.

660
00:34:58,480 --> 00:35:01,719
Speaker 6: I was talking about son Rah and profit Yahweh like

661
00:35:01,760 --> 00:35:05,880
Speaker 6: we talked about before, and a broad gamut of African

662
00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:08,160
Speaker 6: American UFO traditions, and they still just.

663
00:35:08,160 --> 00:35:09,319
Speaker 5: Had a really hard time.

664
00:35:10,680 --> 00:35:12,760
Speaker 6: They' s had a really hard time with that. Whereas

665
00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:15,319
Speaker 6: their own traditions because many of them Christians, they don't

666
00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:18,279
Speaker 6: see that as just as fanciful, you know, in its

667
00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:20,520
Speaker 6: own way. They just they just accept it.

668
00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:24,440
Speaker 5: But even when we discussed other African American UFO traditions,

669
00:35:24,640 --> 00:35:27,279
Speaker 5: they didn't have as hard a time with it as

670
00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:29,319
Speaker 5: they did the UFO stuff. I don't know what to

671
00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:29,719
Speaker 5: do with that.

672
00:35:30,160 --> 00:35:32,879
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's that's fascinating. It really is. You know, as

673
00:35:32,920 --> 00:35:34,520
Speaker 4: I told you when I met you in person for

674
00:35:34,520 --> 00:35:36,960
Speaker 4: the first time, I credit with you one of my

675
00:35:37,239 --> 00:35:41,359
Speaker 4: favorite lines sayings that you had in that piece Cosmosis,

676
00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:45,239
Speaker 4: where you said that UFO believers are those who have

677
00:35:45,360 --> 00:35:50,160
Speaker 4: experienced the phenomenon or those of us compelled by the data.

678
00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:52,839
Speaker 4: I use this all the time. I think it's just

679
00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:55,919
Speaker 4: such a great phrasing thing. I want to ask you,

680
00:35:56,160 --> 00:36:00,120
Speaker 4: what data is it that compels you to believe that

681
00:36:00,200 --> 00:36:03,000
Speaker 4: the UFO phenomenon in et contact is real.

682
00:36:03,520 --> 00:36:06,160
Speaker 5: That's a good question when we talk about data.

683
00:36:06,400 --> 00:36:09,840
Speaker 6: When I used to teach a course at LSU Religion

684
00:36:09,880 --> 00:36:12,719
Speaker 6: and Paranormal that's actually a course that LSU has. It's

685
00:36:12,719 --> 00:36:15,719
Speaker 6: called Religion in Parapsychology, and I think it goes back

686
00:36:15,719 --> 00:36:17,719
Speaker 6: actually to the early eighties, and it's one of the

687
00:36:17,719 --> 00:36:21,880
Speaker 6: few courses on religion in the paranormal or parapsychology in

688
00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:24,399
Speaker 6: the country. In the area of religion, there are very

689
00:36:24,400 --> 00:36:26,560
Speaker 6: few courses. I'm not sure that there are very many.

690
00:36:26,719 --> 00:36:28,360
Speaker 6: And one of the things that I tell students is

691
00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:30,480
Speaker 6: I'm not asking you to believe. I'm not asking you

692
00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:32,960
Speaker 6: to believe because they come into it especially students in

693
00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:36,279
Speaker 6: the science is already skeptical, already ready to dismiss I

694
00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:38,400
Speaker 6: asked them to consider all the scholarship we're going to

695
00:36:38,480 --> 00:36:41,919
Speaker 6: read and the data, and then make a decision. I'm

696
00:36:41,960 --> 00:36:46,160
Speaker 6: never asking for belief, right, It's not about that to me.

697
00:36:46,840 --> 00:36:50,360
Speaker 6: So what I mean by data, I'm talking about UFO

698
00:36:50,520 --> 00:36:53,440
Speaker 6: showing up on radar, people having experiences of the c

699
00:36:53,800 --> 00:36:57,239
Speaker 6: I think we dismissed the anecdote too, for sure, far

700
00:36:57,320 --> 00:37:02,520
Speaker 6: too easily. Yep, we dismissed then, and I appreciate. I

701
00:37:02,560 --> 00:37:05,280
Speaker 6: heard Jack Fallet say one time when we talk about

702
00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:07,799
Speaker 6: the anecdotal These weren't his work, but what he was

703
00:37:07,800 --> 00:37:13,400
Speaker 6: saying was that we should consider that evidence. It's anecdotal evidence.

704
00:37:13,440 --> 00:37:15,080
Speaker 4: All these form of evidence.

705
00:37:15,080 --> 00:37:18,120
Speaker 6: Sure, that's exactly right, right, And so I think we've

706
00:37:18,120 --> 00:37:22,000
Speaker 6: dismissed that far too easily. Whereas I tend to take

707
00:37:22,040 --> 00:37:26,440
Speaker 6: people's experiences seriously. So there's physical evidence, right, both for

708
00:37:26,480 --> 00:37:30,879
Speaker 6: the paranormal UFOs and so on, But then there's this

709
00:37:30,920 --> 00:37:34,520
Speaker 6: first person experience that I want to see as evidence.

710
00:37:34,560 --> 00:37:37,360
Speaker 6: I don't want to dismiss these folks as less than healthy.

711
00:37:37,520 --> 00:37:39,239
Speaker 6: And I'm not saying there aren't those folks out there,

712
00:37:39,280 --> 00:37:41,560
Speaker 6: of course, of course there are. But the large number

713
00:37:41,560 --> 00:37:43,799
Speaker 6: of people I know who have claimed to have had

714
00:37:43,840 --> 00:37:50,280
Speaker 6: paranormal and UFO encounters are educated, sound mentally right, very lucid,

715
00:37:50,560 --> 00:37:52,360
Speaker 6: and so on. What are you going to do with that?

716
00:37:52,760 --> 00:37:55,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's a tough thing where I don't have a

717
00:37:55,480 --> 00:37:58,560
Speaker 4: problem with that because I tend to think that's very possible.

718
00:37:58,600 --> 00:38:00,719
Speaker 4: But a lot of people do just struggle with that.

719
00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:03,359
Speaker 6: Sure, sure, And I'm not even talking about, say, some

720
00:38:03,400 --> 00:38:06,360
Speaker 6: of the experimental stuff for parapsychology.

721
00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:08,239
Speaker 7: No, no, right, yeah, right, which is evidence too, which has

722
00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:11,160
Speaker 7: long been you know, some of that gets ignored, but

723
00:38:11,640 --> 00:38:14,640
Speaker 7: you can find all kinds of experimental evidence for the

724
00:38:14,680 --> 00:38:17,440
Speaker 7: paranogm right in parapsychology.

725
00:38:16,800 --> 00:38:19,279
Speaker 4: For sure, and more so now than ever. I think

726
00:38:19,280 --> 00:38:21,680
Speaker 4: it's really kind of a growing area. This whole side

727
00:38:21,880 --> 00:38:25,040
Speaker 4: thing is kind of taken off recently. What are your

728
00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:29,280
Speaker 4: thoughts on the position of academia on the UFO subject?

729
00:38:29,640 --> 00:38:35,040
Speaker 8: Yeah, you know, yeah, yeah, No, I mean I'm troubled,

730
00:38:35,040 --> 00:38:38,640
Speaker 8: And maybe that's why I stuttered, because I'm in the academy, right,

731
00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:42,000
Speaker 8: and I think in many ways the academy is a problem.

732
00:38:42,200 --> 00:38:45,359
Speaker 6: I think in some ways the Academy is a stomach block.

733
00:38:45,440 --> 00:38:49,440
Speaker 6: You know, the mission of American colleges and universities is

734
00:38:49,480 --> 00:38:53,799
Speaker 6: supposed to be the creation and dissemination of new knowledge, right,

735
00:38:54,080 --> 00:38:57,120
Speaker 6: and yet what I find very often in the Academy

736
00:38:57,560 --> 00:39:01,200
Speaker 6: is that when you're talking about new nol outside of

737
00:39:01,239 --> 00:39:05,120
Speaker 6: the materialist norms, which is the primary culture and perspective

738
00:39:05,160 --> 00:39:08,600
Speaker 6: of the academy, your you're marginalized and dismissed. And this

739
00:39:08,640 --> 00:39:10,920
Speaker 6: is this is before people have even seen any of

740
00:39:11,000 --> 00:39:14,200
Speaker 6: the evidence. So I was talking more than more than

741
00:39:14,239 --> 00:39:17,920
Speaker 6: once at LSU just casually what people say in psychology

742
00:39:17,960 --> 00:39:22,320
Speaker 6: and other disciplines, and they immediately dismiss UFOs as something

743
00:39:22,600 --> 00:39:26,880
Speaker 6: psychological without ever having read any scholarship, been in encounter

744
00:39:27,000 --> 00:39:31,480
Speaker 6: groups groups. That's that's exactly right. And it strikes me

745
00:39:31,520 --> 00:39:34,680
Speaker 6: that that's counter to what the university is supposed to be.

746
00:39:35,080 --> 00:39:37,440
Speaker 6: And so it's it's it's a problem. So when you

747
00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:40,320
Speaker 6: think about my position in the Academy in religion and

748
00:39:40,360 --> 00:39:42,840
Speaker 6: Black studies as an African American male, which is a

749
00:39:42,960 --> 00:39:45,839
Speaker 6: very small number of maybe only African America, is only

750
00:39:45,880 --> 00:39:49,680
Speaker 6: four percent, maybe five percent of professors who are tenured

751
00:39:49,719 --> 00:39:52,359
Speaker 6: or on tendure track, in the entire country, and that's

752
00:39:52,400 --> 00:39:55,319
Speaker 6: including the black schools. And then you look at what

753
00:39:55,320 --> 00:39:58,360
Speaker 6: my particular research interests are, like what we're discussing, and

754
00:39:58,440 --> 00:40:01,479
Speaker 6: think about my experience in I mean, it's a tough one.

755
00:40:01,560 --> 00:40:04,280
Speaker 4: It's a tough I would think so. But man, thanks

756
00:40:04,280 --> 00:40:05,880
Speaker 4: for coming on. It was a lot of fun talking

757
00:40:05,880 --> 00:40:06,640
Speaker 4: about this with you.

758
00:40:07,040 --> 00:40:07,400
Speaker 5: Thank you.

759
00:40:07,480 --> 00:40:08,719
Speaker 4: Hey. Where can people find you?

760
00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:13,360
Speaker 6: The website at LSU, which we're updating, the Department of

761
00:40:13,400 --> 00:40:14,800
Speaker 6: African African American Studies.

762
00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:16,080
Speaker 5: If they google Steven C.

763
00:40:16,200 --> 00:40:18,719
Speaker 6: Finley, they could see my books and articles and a

764
00:40:18,719 --> 00:40:21,440
Speaker 6: lot of the TV shows and documentaries I have done.

765
00:40:21,760 --> 00:40:25,600
Speaker 6: My email addresses is online of course on the Apartment

766
00:40:25,640 --> 00:40:28,120
Speaker 6: of African African American Studies, and they can email me

767
00:40:28,160 --> 00:40:29,360
Speaker 6: if they like excellent.

768
00:40:29,480 --> 00:40:32,160
Speaker 4: You can find me on Twitter and Instagram at cd

769
00:40:32,360 --> 00:40:36,000
Speaker 4: underscore Captain Ron. Stay connected by checking out contact inthedesert

770
00:40:36,080 --> 00:40:39,480
Speaker 4: dot com. Stay open minded and rational as we explore

771
00:40:39,520 --> 00:40:41,800
Speaker 4: the unknown right here on the iHeartRadio and Coast to

772
00:40:41,880 --> 00:40:44,040
Speaker 4: Code am Paranormal podcast Network.

773
00:40:55,840 --> 00:40:58,359
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to the iHeartRadio and Coast to Ghost

774
00:40:58,400 --> 00:41:01,359
Speaker 1: a Paranormal podcast net, and make sure and check out

775
00:41:01,440 --> 00:41:04,680
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776
00:41:04,719 --> 00:41:11,560
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