1 00:00:08,600 --> 00:00:21,040 Speaker 1: Body Backs with Joseph Scott Morgan. They are not too 2 00:00:21,040 --> 00:00:28,920 Speaker 1: many things in this world that are more tragic than 3 00:00:28,960 --> 00:00:34,320 Speaker 1: a motherless child. It's really hard to fathom that for 4 00:00:34,400 --> 00:00:40,640 Speaker 1: those of us that grew up with a mama. And 5 00:00:40,680 --> 00:00:44,640 Speaker 1: but and it's hard, I think, for anyone that grew 6 00:00:44,720 --> 00:00:49,920 Speaker 1: up with that level of normalacy in your world to appreciate, 7 00:00:52,159 --> 00:00:58,400 Speaker 1: to appreciate what life might hold for these individuals moving 8 00:00:58,440 --> 00:01:01,680 Speaker 1: forward that no longer or have a loving mother, and 9 00:01:01,720 --> 00:01:11,520 Speaker 1: then to compound that with the absence of a father. Wow, 10 00:01:13,200 --> 00:01:16,760 Speaker 1: there's so much to learn in this world. There's so 11 00:01:16,800 --> 00:01:22,040 Speaker 1: many things to experience, so many lessons to be taught. 12 00:01:22,240 --> 00:01:26,520 Speaker 1: But we have a case that has been in the 13 00:01:26,560 --> 00:01:31,480 Speaker 1: news now for several years that is finally, after all 14 00:01:31,520 --> 00:01:35,880 Speaker 1: this time, moving forward, and the case is that of 15 00:01:37,160 --> 00:01:46,759 Speaker 1: Jennifer Doulos. It's Jennifer Dulos and the tragedy that befell 16 00:01:47,240 --> 00:01:55,880 Speaker 1: this vibrant mother, mother five and not really knowing what 17 00:01:56,000 --> 00:01:58,640 Speaker 1: the future of those children is. But in the immediate 18 00:01:58,800 --> 00:02:02,240 Speaker 1: we don't really know what the future is of the 19 00:02:02,280 --> 00:02:05,040 Speaker 1: trials that we have at hand. I know this, I 20 00:02:05,080 --> 00:02:11,280 Speaker 1: know that freud Is Dulos, her former husband is no 21 00:02:11,360 --> 00:02:15,000 Speaker 1: longer in the picture because he took his life and 22 00:02:15,080 --> 00:02:19,639 Speaker 1: they are no more. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, and this 23 00:02:21,400 --> 00:02:33,320 Speaker 1: is body I think, Dave. Some of the great memories 24 00:02:33,360 --> 00:02:37,000 Speaker 1: I have from childhood actually stemmed from nightmares and the 25 00:02:37,120 --> 00:02:42,320 Speaker 1: nightmares that I had after I shook myself awake. As 26 00:02:42,360 --> 00:02:44,919 Speaker 1: a small child. I used to always have a nightmare 27 00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:49,000 Speaker 1: involving falling, and I even fell out of out of 28 00:02:49,040 --> 00:02:53,480 Speaker 1: my bed as a young child and struck the floor 29 00:02:53,520 --> 00:02:57,560 Speaker 1: and fractured my collar bone and I kind of, without 30 00:02:57,720 --> 00:03:03,400 Speaker 1: verbalizing it, walked around, according to my mother for a 31 00:03:03,400 --> 00:03:05,680 Speaker 1: couple of days just with my right arm, just kind 32 00:03:05,680 --> 00:03:09,480 Speaker 1: of hanging and not using it. But through all of 33 00:03:09,520 --> 00:03:14,800 Speaker 1: those nightmares that I went through as a child, my 34 00:03:14,880 --> 00:03:18,720 Speaker 1: mother was there to comfort me. That's not the case 35 00:03:18,800 --> 00:03:23,079 Speaker 1: with the Dula's children. That that part, as hard as 36 00:03:23,080 --> 00:03:25,720 Speaker 1: that is to swallow, that part of their life is 37 00:03:25,760 --> 00:03:29,960 Speaker 1: gone literally literally and they don't have a father to 38 00:03:30,080 --> 00:03:33,400 Speaker 1: assuage any kind of fears or terrors that they might 39 00:03:33,480 --> 00:03:35,320 Speaker 1: have at night. As a matter of fact, I think 40 00:03:35,320 --> 00:03:37,520 Speaker 1: that when they look back in the rearview mirror, they're 41 00:03:37,520 --> 00:03:41,000 Speaker 1: going to look back and they will see terror in there. 42 00:03:41,320 --> 00:03:45,400 Speaker 1: In there the rearview mirror going back with this family. 43 00:03:45,640 --> 00:03:47,960 Speaker 1: I don't know how any family recovers from this kind 44 00:03:47,960 --> 00:03:48,600 Speaker 1: of trauma. 45 00:03:48,760 --> 00:03:51,120 Speaker 2: You know, we've covered so many stories over the years 46 00:03:51,120 --> 00:03:54,560 Speaker 2: that ended up in death, that started with a marriage 47 00:03:55,040 --> 00:04:00,000 Speaker 2: that fell apart, did it cheating and in the case 48 00:04:01,160 --> 00:04:04,080 Speaker 2: of well, the trial of Michelle Treconis, she was the 49 00:04:04,080 --> 00:04:06,760 Speaker 2: other woman. But to back up to find out how 50 00:04:06,800 --> 00:04:11,160 Speaker 2: we got here, you mentioned five children. Jennifer Dulo's and 51 00:04:11,320 --> 00:04:16,480 Speaker 2: Fotus Dulo's were married, they had five children. To help 52 00:04:16,560 --> 00:04:20,880 Speaker 2: along with this, they hired nanny Lauren Almida. I'm mentioning 53 00:04:20,920 --> 00:04:24,599 Speaker 2: her now because as we go through this from here 54 00:04:24,640 --> 00:04:28,200 Speaker 2: on out, Lauren Almida is the source of a lot 55 00:04:28,200 --> 00:04:30,600 Speaker 2: of information that we get about the inner workings of 56 00:04:30,640 --> 00:04:31,640 Speaker 2: the family dynamic. 57 00:04:32,240 --> 00:04:34,520 Speaker 3: And Lauren Almida. 58 00:04:34,279 --> 00:04:37,360 Speaker 2: At thirty two years old, has been with these children 59 00:04:37,400 --> 00:04:41,440 Speaker 2: for thirteen years pretty much, and she is or twelve 60 00:04:41,520 --> 00:04:45,520 Speaker 2: years and she's still with them, Joe, as we talk 61 00:04:45,560 --> 00:04:50,520 Speaker 2: about all of this. Lauren Almida began as a babysitter 62 00:04:50,520 --> 00:04:52,880 Speaker 2: for the Dulo's children when she was in college. She 63 00:04:52,920 --> 00:04:55,880 Speaker 2: and her sister were part time nanny babysitter of slash 64 00:04:55,960 --> 00:04:59,120 Speaker 2: nanny and when she got out of college, Jennifer Dulos 65 00:04:59,160 --> 00:05:01,520 Speaker 2: asked her to remain on as the nanny, and she 66 00:05:01,600 --> 00:05:04,200 Speaker 2: did so. When I think about the five children of 67 00:05:04,279 --> 00:05:08,920 Speaker 2: Jennifer and Photus Doulos, I think, thank God for Lauren Almia. 68 00:05:10,279 --> 00:05:13,760 Speaker 1: I don't think that. I don't think that we would 69 00:05:14,240 --> 00:05:19,120 Speaker 1: we would have the level of info that we have 70 00:05:19,279 --> 00:05:25,240 Speaker 1: right now if it wasn't for Lauren. The trial, as 71 00:05:25,240 --> 00:05:29,640 Speaker 1: we're taping, this is actually going on, and I was 72 00:05:29,680 --> 00:05:34,640 Speaker 1: a bore witness to to her testimony, and it was powerful. 73 00:05:34,960 --> 00:05:40,520 Speaker 1: I think that it was powerful, Dave, because it's God, 74 00:05:40,560 --> 00:05:43,800 Speaker 1: there's not a it sounds I know, this sounds horribly salacious, 75 00:05:44,120 --> 00:05:47,640 Speaker 1: but to have her on the stand was kind of voyeuristic, 76 00:05:47,960 --> 00:05:53,400 Speaker 1: I think, relative to the deal of family life, lives 77 00:05:53,560 --> 00:05:56,400 Speaker 1: and and kind of the inner workings. Just the legit. 78 00:05:57,279 --> 00:05:59,560 Speaker 1: I can't imagine. This is the thing that struck me. 79 00:05:59,640 --> 00:06:03,320 Speaker 1: The legit justs of moving five kids around to all 80 00:06:03,360 --> 00:06:05,719 Speaker 1: of their activities in school and all this stuff. And 81 00:06:06,200 --> 00:06:14,279 Speaker 1: this became a point of contention because Foudus actually got 82 00:06:14,360 --> 00:06:21,000 Speaker 1: rather belligerent and argumentative and threatening, according to Jennifer, and 83 00:06:21,200 --> 00:06:24,760 Speaker 1: she was accused of making things more difficult than they 84 00:06:24,760 --> 00:06:28,480 Speaker 1: should be because she had scheduled activities for the kids 85 00:06:28,480 --> 00:06:32,960 Speaker 1: on Saturdays. Well, I gotta tell you, you know, that's 86 00:06:32,960 --> 00:06:36,480 Speaker 1: what happens. I mean, kids, kids have soccer, they have danced, 87 00:06:36,520 --> 00:06:38,799 Speaker 1: they I mean, you name it. And certainly my family's 88 00:06:38,839 --> 00:06:41,960 Speaker 1: been involved in all of it. And it it's hectic. 89 00:06:42,040 --> 00:06:46,240 Speaker 1: And then you put that extra pressure of a separation 90 00:06:46,360 --> 00:06:51,039 Speaker 1: that's going on, and particularly a separation that is involving infidelity. 91 00:06:51,800 --> 00:06:55,120 Speaker 1: Oh my god, you talked about I adding spice. 92 00:06:54,920 --> 00:06:58,760 Speaker 2: To get right down to it. Jennifer Dulos and photos 93 00:06:58,880 --> 00:07:03,919 Speaker 2: Doulo's vacation with the children, all five children in the 94 00:07:04,160 --> 00:07:09,480 Speaker 2: March of twenty seventeen. They spent one week out in Aspen, Colorado, 95 00:07:09,520 --> 00:07:12,280 Speaker 2: doing snow skiing, and they spent the second week in 96 00:07:12,320 --> 00:07:17,080 Speaker 2: Florida snow you know, water skiing, and it was a 97 00:07:17,120 --> 00:07:22,880 Speaker 2: fantastic journey for a vacation. But it was during that time, 98 00:07:22,920 --> 00:07:25,400 Speaker 2: in March of twenty seventeen, that Jennifer Dulos went to 99 00:07:25,440 --> 00:07:28,920 Speaker 2: Lauren al Mighta, the children's nanny, and said, I believe 100 00:07:29,040 --> 00:07:31,160 Speaker 2: Potus is cheating on me, and I have the proof. 101 00:07:31,880 --> 00:07:34,640 Speaker 2: And Lauren al might have thought a lot of Photus, 102 00:07:34,680 --> 00:07:36,040 Speaker 2: She thought a lot of him as a man. She 103 00:07:36,080 --> 00:07:38,400 Speaker 2: had not seen different sides of him at that point, 104 00:07:38,440 --> 00:07:42,200 Speaker 2: but she was just shocked. But that's where everything changed 105 00:07:42,240 --> 00:07:44,679 Speaker 2: in the Dulo's family. That led to what we're talking 106 00:07:44,720 --> 00:07:49,240 Speaker 2: about today. So think March twenty seventeen. May of twenty nineteen, 107 00:07:50,440 --> 00:07:54,680 Speaker 2: Jennifer Dulos and Photus Dulos were separated. Jennifer Dulos was 108 00:07:54,760 --> 00:07:56,800 Speaker 2: living had the five children with her and they had 109 00:07:56,840 --> 00:08:02,000 Speaker 2: rented a house. Potus Dulos that Jennifer thought he was 110 00:08:02,040 --> 00:08:06,560 Speaker 2: having an affair with Michelle Traconis actually was living with 111 00:08:06,640 --> 00:08:12,520 Speaker 2: Fotus Dulos in May of twenty nineteen, So Jennifer was 112 00:08:12,600 --> 00:08:18,960 Speaker 2: right in her suspicions. Now, what happened on the day 113 00:08:19,200 --> 00:08:22,600 Speaker 2: that Jennifer Dulos went missing, And you mentioned the getting 114 00:08:22,640 --> 00:08:25,360 Speaker 2: the children from here to there in different things and meetings, 115 00:08:25,360 --> 00:08:28,160 Speaker 2: and it was a busy schedule, and it was busy 116 00:08:28,280 --> 00:08:32,000 Speaker 2: enough that people kind of knew what her schedule was. 117 00:08:32,000 --> 00:08:36,240 Speaker 2: Her friends, Laura Almida, the nanny, knew Jennifer Dulo's schedule 118 00:08:36,320 --> 00:08:38,680 Speaker 2: during the day because of the five children that needed 119 00:08:38,720 --> 00:08:41,840 Speaker 2: to be, you know, here and there. So on this 120 00:08:41,880 --> 00:08:46,160 Speaker 2: particular day, Jennifer Dulos dropped the children off at school, 121 00:08:47,120 --> 00:08:50,520 Speaker 2: went back to the house and that's it. That is 122 00:08:50,640 --> 00:08:57,240 Speaker 2: all we know based on the evidence we have right 123 00:08:57,320 --> 00:09:01,920 Speaker 2: this minute. She disappeared that morning. She didn't show up 124 00:09:01,960 --> 00:09:06,520 Speaker 2: at any of her planned appointments. Later that day, Lauren Almita, 125 00:09:06,600 --> 00:09:09,120 Speaker 2: the nanny, picked the children up and kept moving. She 126 00:09:09,160 --> 00:09:12,600 Speaker 2: had texted because they had a journey planned. They had 127 00:09:12,640 --> 00:09:14,160 Speaker 2: to go to New York, had to go traveling to 128 00:09:14,160 --> 00:09:17,320 Speaker 2: a number of different places, and Lauren had texted Jennifer 129 00:09:17,360 --> 00:09:20,360 Speaker 2: about one thing came It was an iPad. One of 130 00:09:20,400 --> 00:09:22,680 Speaker 2: the children was not allowed to use their iPad for 131 00:09:22,760 --> 00:09:26,800 Speaker 2: Instagram because they had gotten on restriction over it. And 132 00:09:26,840 --> 00:09:28,880 Speaker 2: the nanny was saying, can we take this? You know, 133 00:09:29,320 --> 00:09:30,960 Speaker 2: I know it's been taken, but it's a long drive 134 00:09:31,360 --> 00:09:32,480 Speaker 2: and when and I think. 135 00:09:32,320 --> 00:09:36,280 Speaker 1: That if I remember correctly, they couldn't find the child's 136 00:09:36,640 --> 00:09:39,199 Speaker 1: iPad and they were going to have to utilize According 137 00:09:39,200 --> 00:09:43,800 Speaker 1: to Lowe, sorry, Lauren used the family iPad and that 138 00:09:43,920 --> 00:09:45,439 Speaker 1: was her thing. She wanted to know if they could 139 00:09:45,480 --> 00:09:49,720 Speaker 1: bring that with them because going into the city, right. 140 00:09:49,679 --> 00:09:51,959 Speaker 2: And when she didn't get a reply, it was funny 141 00:09:52,000 --> 00:09:55,240 Speaker 2: because on the stand, one of those little things, a 142 00:09:55,240 --> 00:09:58,560 Speaker 2: little slice of life that we all have gone through. 143 00:09:58,960 --> 00:10:02,120 Speaker 2: But on the stand, Lauren Almida, you know, they asked her, well, 144 00:10:02,160 --> 00:10:02,760 Speaker 2: what did you do? 145 00:10:03,160 --> 00:10:03,360 Speaker 3: Well? 146 00:10:03,360 --> 00:10:05,320 Speaker 2: When I didn't hear back from her, I made the decision. 147 00:10:05,360 --> 00:10:08,360 Speaker 2: It was a long drive. We took the family iPad. Anyway, 148 00:10:09,280 --> 00:10:12,920 Speaker 2: that was the beginning of realizing that something's not quite right. 149 00:10:13,000 --> 00:10:15,439 Speaker 2: Jennifer wasn't replying to text messages, couldn't get her on 150 00:10:15,480 --> 00:10:19,120 Speaker 2: the phone, and so by that evening when nobody had 151 00:10:19,160 --> 00:10:20,960 Speaker 2: heard from her, and by then Lauren had talked with 152 00:10:21,120 --> 00:10:24,280 Speaker 2: you know, Jennifer's extended family and friends, and it was 153 00:10:24,320 --> 00:10:27,000 Speaker 2: Lauren Almia that called police and said, I don't know 154 00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:30,800 Speaker 2: where she is. And so as police came to investigate, 155 00:10:32,800 --> 00:10:36,400 Speaker 2: there were a number of red flags fairly early on 156 00:10:36,800 --> 00:10:40,440 Speaker 2: in their investigation. One was the fact that there was 157 00:10:40,480 --> 00:10:46,320 Speaker 2: a vehicle in the garage and there was one missing. 158 00:10:49,160 --> 00:10:51,920 Speaker 2: Michelle wasn't there, but her purse was there, her keys 159 00:10:51,960 --> 00:10:54,520 Speaker 2: were there, items that if she was going somewhere she 160 00:10:54,520 --> 00:10:55,200 Speaker 2: would normally have. 161 00:10:56,080 --> 00:10:57,080 Speaker 3: Where didn't she leave? 162 00:10:57,480 --> 00:10:59,800 Speaker 1: She left a cup of tea too, Yes, I think 163 00:10:59,840 --> 00:11:03,560 Speaker 1: that that she commonly carried with her to drink, right, Yeah, 164 00:11:03,440 --> 00:11:08,520 Speaker 1: why would you leave a location like this? And you know, Look, 165 00:11:09,080 --> 00:11:12,679 Speaker 1: we look for patterns and investigations and things. If anybody 166 00:11:12,800 --> 00:11:19,800 Speaker 1: deviates from a norm, we are I think as investigators 167 00:11:19,840 --> 00:11:23,120 Speaker 1: we are cynical. We assume, you know, because we're requested 168 00:11:23,160 --> 00:11:25,120 Speaker 1: out at something like this, you know, we assume that 169 00:11:25,160 --> 00:11:27,320 Speaker 1: the worst has happened most of the time, and we 170 00:11:27,400 --> 00:11:30,200 Speaker 1: start to dig into those spots. It goes back to 171 00:11:30,280 --> 00:11:34,480 Speaker 1: the old adage, you know where. And they didn't know 172 00:11:34,480 --> 00:11:36,480 Speaker 1: at this time if this was a death or not. 173 00:11:36,679 --> 00:11:40,679 Speaker 1: But you know, we when we work deaths as death investigators, 174 00:11:40,720 --> 00:11:44,920 Speaker 1: we assume that every death is a homicide until proven otherwise. 175 00:11:45,080 --> 00:11:48,400 Speaker 1: And so when you start to see as an investigator, 176 00:11:48,440 --> 00:11:51,880 Speaker 1: and look, Lauren would have truly had the insight into this. Look, 177 00:11:52,080 --> 00:11:54,400 Speaker 1: you know, she's saying she would have never have left 178 00:11:54,400 --> 00:11:58,439 Speaker 1: the house without these items, and why are they here? 179 00:11:58,800 --> 00:12:02,120 Speaker 1: And she's not here, and this other vehicle is not here. 180 00:12:02,200 --> 00:12:05,480 Speaker 1: I think it was her suburban right that was actually missing. 181 00:12:05,520 --> 00:12:11,240 Speaker 1: But the land rover, yeah, range rover was there and 182 00:12:11,280 --> 00:12:12,880 Speaker 1: parked in the garage. 183 00:12:13,880 --> 00:12:17,760 Speaker 2: And that's where there were just red flags. Like I said, now, 184 00:12:17,760 --> 00:12:19,640 Speaker 2: the first officer arrives on the scene, and this is 185 00:12:19,679 --> 00:12:24,000 Speaker 2: where Joseph Scott Morgan, you got a lot of plaining 186 00:12:24,080 --> 00:12:26,920 Speaker 2: to do, boy, because I'm gonna tell you right off 187 00:12:26,920 --> 00:12:31,040 Speaker 2: the bat when the first officer is on scene to 188 00:12:31,080 --> 00:12:33,320 Speaker 2: get you up to speed. Jennifer Dillos has not been 189 00:12:33,360 --> 00:12:35,600 Speaker 2: seen since she dropped the children off early that morning. 190 00:12:36,320 --> 00:12:39,720 Speaker 2: She missed all of her appointments. Nobody that normally has 191 00:12:39,960 --> 00:12:42,959 Speaker 2: contact with her has had contact. And now the police 192 00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:45,960 Speaker 2: officer rives and he starts looking around. Now, there was 193 00:12:46,000 --> 00:12:51,200 Speaker 2: something that Lauren Almita noticed in the kitchen. And she 194 00:12:51,320 --> 00:12:55,560 Speaker 2: had the day before placed a number of paper towels 195 00:12:55,600 --> 00:12:58,560 Speaker 2: in a cabinet in the kitchen, and when she saw 196 00:12:58,600 --> 00:13:01,280 Speaker 2: the tea she was cleaning up brought subway home for 197 00:13:01,360 --> 00:13:03,600 Speaker 2: the children to eat because they had the long drive 198 00:13:03,640 --> 00:13:05,320 Speaker 2: to New York, and so she was just looking for 199 00:13:05,360 --> 00:13:08,199 Speaker 2: basic stuff to clean up before they left, and realized 200 00:13:08,240 --> 00:13:10,440 Speaker 2: that she had loaded like ten paper towels in this 201 00:13:10,559 --> 00:13:12,600 Speaker 2: cabinet and they were gone. They were like two left. 202 00:13:12,920 --> 00:13:15,120 Speaker 1: There were two I think it was actually twelve and 203 00:13:15,160 --> 00:13:16,160 Speaker 1: there were ten missing. 204 00:13:16,480 --> 00:13:16,640 Speaker 3: Miss. 205 00:13:16,760 --> 00:13:19,360 Speaker 1: That's the thing that just a gross I guess that's 206 00:13:19,360 --> 00:13:20,439 Speaker 1: what that is. I don't know. 207 00:13:20,600 --> 00:13:23,400 Speaker 3: It's like too many paper towels in it. 208 00:13:23,640 --> 00:13:25,760 Speaker 1: I know, I know, and I'm gonna get to that 209 00:13:25,800 --> 00:13:30,520 Speaker 1: from a forensics perspective, because that's got that has got 210 00:13:31,559 --> 00:13:35,080 Speaker 1: that that that's a big tail. You know, when you 211 00:13:35,160 --> 00:13:40,040 Speaker 1: begin to think about this person, Lauren, who has you know, 212 00:13:40,080 --> 00:13:43,320 Speaker 1: like we've established it, if she's got this this inside 213 00:13:43,480 --> 00:13:47,400 Speaker 1: look at what's going on within this family dynamic and 214 00:13:48,160 --> 00:13:51,440 Speaker 1: down to you mentioned those those little slices of life, 215 00:13:52,360 --> 00:13:54,800 Speaker 1: and the devil is in the details. The explanation is 216 00:13:54,840 --> 00:14:00,000 Speaker 1: actually in the details because within this environment, Within this environment, 217 00:14:01,120 --> 00:14:07,679 Speaker 1: Lauren understood schedules, She understood logistics, she understood it sounds 218 00:14:07,679 --> 00:14:13,520 Speaker 1: like a military operation. She understood planning. She understood what 219 00:14:13,720 --> 00:14:18,120 Speaker 1: it took for this family to live the life that 220 00:14:18,160 --> 00:14:21,920 Speaker 1: they were living. She understood the stressors. And the one 221 00:14:21,960 --> 00:14:27,200 Speaker 1: big thing that she understood is that Jennifer Doulos would 222 00:14:27,280 --> 00:14:49,200 Speaker 1: never ever abandon her church. I think the older I've gotten, 223 00:14:49,280 --> 00:14:53,240 Speaker 1: the more clumsy I've gotten. Days it seems like there 224 00:14:53,320 --> 00:14:57,200 Speaker 1: is not a day that goes by in my life. 225 00:14:57,240 --> 00:15:01,320 Speaker 1: Now they don't spill something. And by the way, I 226 00:15:01,440 --> 00:15:04,920 Speaker 1: meant to tell you this, I'm am my refrigerator here 227 00:15:04,960 --> 00:15:10,640 Speaker 1: at home. I've got an ice maker. I think that 228 00:15:10,680 --> 00:15:13,200 Speaker 1: it's possessed because every time I open the door to 229 00:15:13,240 --> 00:15:18,080 Speaker 1: the freezer, ice falls out, that's caught in the tube, 230 00:15:18,080 --> 00:15:21,200 Speaker 1: and I can't get the problem resolved, and of course 231 00:15:21,200 --> 00:15:25,600 Speaker 1: that winds up, you know, my wife Kim saying what's 232 00:15:25,640 --> 00:15:27,800 Speaker 1: going on? And it's always the same thing. The ice 233 00:15:27,840 --> 00:15:29,480 Speaker 1: fell out of the freezer, you know, And there I am. 234 00:15:29,520 --> 00:15:31,040 Speaker 1: I'm down on my hands and knees trying to pick 235 00:15:31,080 --> 00:15:34,760 Speaker 1: up the ice because We've got these hardwood floors in 236 00:15:34,800 --> 00:15:37,240 Speaker 1: the kitchen and I'm worried about stains and all that 237 00:15:37,320 --> 00:15:42,680 Speaker 1: stuff on them and are slipping. I have to find 238 00:15:42,680 --> 00:15:45,600 Speaker 1: the ice, but David, I don't. And the one thing 239 00:15:45,600 --> 00:15:47,480 Speaker 1: I'm always asking my wife, And of course my wife, 240 00:15:47,520 --> 00:15:51,240 Speaker 1: God bless her, she Gimmy always knows what supplies are 241 00:15:51,280 --> 00:15:55,120 Speaker 1: on hand, and she knows where the paper towels are, 242 00:15:56,760 --> 00:15:58,880 Speaker 1: and I'm always looking for them. And I think it's 243 00:15:58,920 --> 00:16:00,880 Speaker 1: because I'm the chief of my centers. I'm the one 244 00:16:00,880 --> 00:16:02,640 Speaker 1: that's using all of them all the time, and I 245 00:16:02,720 --> 00:16:05,840 Speaker 1: expect there to be an unnat supply. But when you 246 00:16:05,880 --> 00:16:11,680 Speaker 1: think about ten rolls of paper towels, how you know 247 00:16:13,720 --> 00:16:16,000 Speaker 1: you go back and look all these all these paper 248 00:16:16,040 --> 00:16:19,240 Speaker 1: towel companies, how do they sell paper towels? Well, they uh, 249 00:16:19,520 --> 00:16:21,960 Speaker 1: you know, they they tell us how absorbent they are. 250 00:16:22,640 --> 00:16:24,680 Speaker 1: You know what, what you can clean up and man 251 00:16:24,720 --> 00:16:27,640 Speaker 1: those tests that they show on TV, Lord have mercy. 252 00:16:27,920 --> 00:16:30,080 Speaker 1: It looks like when they take their brand and they 253 00:16:30,080 --> 00:16:32,440 Speaker 1: wipe it across the surface, they want you to think 254 00:16:33,480 --> 00:16:36,320 Speaker 1: you can do surgery on that spot without applying anything else. 255 00:16:36,360 --> 00:16:38,560 Speaker 1: All it takes is one of their paper towels. And 256 00:16:38,560 --> 00:16:41,000 Speaker 1: of course we know that that's not the reality. There's 257 00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:44,560 Speaker 1: always some residual amount that's left behind. And I think 258 00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:48,920 Speaker 1: that that's key in Jennifer Dulos's case. 259 00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:53,760 Speaker 2: Dave, Well, when the first police officer shows up, he 260 00:16:53,840 --> 00:16:58,400 Speaker 2: comes in and there were two officers. One had a bodycam, 261 00:16:58,480 --> 00:17:01,840 Speaker 2: one didn't. The first officer on the scene Lieutenant Aaron Latreau, 262 00:17:02,520 --> 00:17:06,040 Speaker 2: and he explains what he is seeing as he walks through. 263 00:17:06,280 --> 00:17:08,639 Speaker 2: He walked into the garage. He went through the entire house. 264 00:17:08,800 --> 00:17:11,359 Speaker 2: But I want to go to the garage because that 265 00:17:11,480 --> 00:17:14,840 Speaker 2: was where the range Rover is there. But her Chevy 266 00:17:14,880 --> 00:17:17,879 Speaker 2: Suburban is not talking about Jennifer Doulo Chevy Suburban is 267 00:17:17,880 --> 00:17:20,919 Speaker 2: not in the garage, and that was the card they 268 00:17:20,920 --> 00:17:23,880 Speaker 2: would have expected her to normally drive, and. 269 00:17:23,840 --> 00:17:27,399 Speaker 1: She's she's hauling around an army of kids, right. 270 00:17:26,840 --> 00:17:29,960 Speaker 2: And so yeah, as the officer arrives on scene, he 271 00:17:30,119 --> 00:17:32,920 Speaker 2: and the other officer, officer Black, who has the body cam, 272 00:17:33,320 --> 00:17:35,760 Speaker 2: we actually have a chance to watch this. The bodycam 273 00:17:35,840 --> 00:17:40,480 Speaker 2: footage lasts about twenty minutes, and in it you actually 274 00:17:40,520 --> 00:17:42,760 Speaker 2: see the garage and you see. 275 00:17:42,560 --> 00:17:45,800 Speaker 3: Things that they really stand out. 276 00:17:45,880 --> 00:17:49,520 Speaker 2: Joe, and you showed me some of the pictures and 277 00:17:49,640 --> 00:17:54,760 Speaker 2: explain what they meant, because while Latreau, the officer didn't 278 00:17:54,840 --> 00:17:57,480 Speaker 2: know exactly what, he could not say, well, I see 279 00:17:57,520 --> 00:18:00,840 Speaker 2: blood in here, he said, I see things that could 280 00:18:00,920 --> 00:18:04,639 Speaker 2: be might be are right, And one of the things 281 00:18:04,640 --> 00:18:07,960 Speaker 2: that was suggested early on in the garage and Latreau, 282 00:18:08,040 --> 00:18:12,040 Speaker 2: he said on the on the tape or during testamon 283 00:18:12,040 --> 00:18:14,320 Speaker 2: I said, while we waited, I looked at the vehicle. 284 00:18:15,720 --> 00:18:19,040 Speaker 2: I noticed that there was what appeared to be red 285 00:18:19,119 --> 00:18:25,919 Speaker 2: blood on the front of that vehicle. There was a 286 00:18:25,960 --> 00:18:29,800 Speaker 2: red mark on the grill area. It drew his attention 287 00:18:29,960 --> 00:18:33,040 Speaker 2: because it didn't match the color of the grill, didn't 288 00:18:33,040 --> 00:18:36,760 Speaker 2: match the color of the vehicle. There was no damage 289 00:18:36,800 --> 00:18:41,720 Speaker 2: to the vehicle that he could see, and he and 290 00:18:41,840 --> 00:18:46,119 Speaker 2: the other officer discussed maybe hit a deer. Maybe they 291 00:18:46,200 --> 00:18:48,040 Speaker 2: hit it, you know, maybe the driver hit a deer, 292 00:18:48,080 --> 00:18:50,040 Speaker 2: but there were no there was no hair, there was 293 00:18:50,080 --> 00:18:52,680 Speaker 2: nothing in no indication that a deer was hit. So 294 00:18:52,800 --> 00:18:56,080 Speaker 2: they have what they both believed to be blood on 295 00:18:56,200 --> 00:19:02,320 Speaker 2: the vehicle and other places as well, and you cannot 296 00:19:02,359 --> 00:19:03,719 Speaker 2: say it. I don't know how this works. I mean, 297 00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:05,360 Speaker 2: do you guys not have like a winking and nod 298 00:19:05,400 --> 00:19:07,680 Speaker 2: to one another when you're on scene. You know it's blood, 299 00:19:08,080 --> 00:19:10,560 Speaker 2: but you can't say it's blood. You have to be 300 00:19:10,680 --> 00:19:11,679 Speaker 2: vague about I say it. 301 00:19:11,880 --> 00:19:13,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm so glad you brought this up because I 302 00:19:13,800 --> 00:19:15,760 Speaker 1: know a lot of people have questions about this. I 303 00:19:15,800 --> 00:19:18,119 Speaker 1: have people that are asked me that ask me this 304 00:19:18,200 --> 00:19:23,080 Speaker 1: question all the time. We will couch, we being investigators, 305 00:19:24,200 --> 00:19:29,320 Speaker 1: we will couch in our reports prior to presumptive testing 306 00:19:29,400 --> 00:19:32,280 Speaker 1: being conducted at a scene. We will say things like, 307 00:19:32,480 --> 00:19:35,480 Speaker 1: let me see, how can I phrase it? This is 308 00:19:35,600 --> 00:19:39,600 Speaker 1: a blood like substance. You're in a report, you'll hear 309 00:19:39,680 --> 00:19:43,840 Speaker 1: that or see it, and then you'll see a red 310 00:19:45,000 --> 00:19:51,120 Speaker 1: substance or a red dried substance. And you'd never want 311 00:19:51,119 --> 00:19:53,159 Speaker 1: to paint yourself into a corner because let me tell 312 00:19:53,160 --> 00:19:56,280 Speaker 1: you how this happens if there's not a presumptive test 313 00:19:56,520 --> 00:19:58,720 Speaker 1: that takes place. And I'll explain that in just a second. 314 00:19:58,760 --> 00:20:00,800 Speaker 1: And you're a police officer and you write in your 315 00:20:00,840 --> 00:20:04,480 Speaker 1: report that that is blood. When they get you on 316 00:20:04,520 --> 00:20:07,879 Speaker 1: the stand, if that's in your official report, the defense 317 00:20:07,880 --> 00:20:09,800 Speaker 1: attorney is going to rip you to shreds. And this 318 00:20:09,960 --> 00:20:12,800 Speaker 1: is the way the conversation is going to go. They say, 319 00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:16,359 Speaker 1: you know, gee, investigator Morgan, I noticed here that you 320 00:20:16,440 --> 00:20:20,480 Speaker 1: said that you found blood staining the floor, or you 321 00:20:20,560 --> 00:20:24,600 Speaker 1: found blood staining the side of the vehicle. I was wondering, 322 00:20:25,600 --> 00:20:31,840 Speaker 1: are you a zerologist, no, sir, Well are you know? 323 00:20:32,040 --> 00:20:36,520 Speaker 1: Are you trace evidence a specialist? No, sir? Are you 324 00:20:36,560 --> 00:20:39,159 Speaker 1: a physician? Yeah, you must be a physician. Tell us 325 00:20:39,160 --> 00:20:41,400 Speaker 1: where did you go to medical school? And you see 326 00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:45,080 Speaker 1: what they're doing here. That's why we frame things this way, Dave, 327 00:20:45,720 --> 00:20:48,960 Speaker 1: even in forensics, you know, unless we can confirm it, 328 00:20:49,040 --> 00:20:51,520 Speaker 1: because what they're doing is when the defense says this, 329 00:20:51,920 --> 00:20:53,280 Speaker 1: and look, you know, when we get up on the 330 00:20:53,280 --> 00:20:56,640 Speaker 1: stand as investigators and experts, they ask us to read 331 00:20:56,680 --> 00:20:58,879 Speaker 1: off the list. They say, you know, they ask us 332 00:20:58,880 --> 00:21:01,199 Speaker 1: what all our credentials are? How many other times you've 333 00:21:01,200 --> 00:21:04,240 Speaker 1: been qualified as an expert, and that validates you. Well, 334 00:21:04,280 --> 00:21:07,080 Speaker 1: all the defense has to do. They can validate you 335 00:21:07,160 --> 00:21:11,000 Speaker 1: all they want to in void Deer, but all the 336 00:21:11,040 --> 00:21:14,119 Speaker 1: defense has to do is to look and say, oh, 337 00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:17,119 Speaker 1: so you didn't go to medical school, so you're not 338 00:21:17,320 --> 00:21:22,359 Speaker 1: actually a blood expert, now are you. And by the way, 339 00:21:22,440 --> 00:21:24,359 Speaker 1: you're calling this blood and you didn't even confirm that 340 00:21:24,359 --> 00:21:27,200 Speaker 1: it was blood. Let me ask you something, can rust 341 00:21:27,359 --> 00:21:30,879 Speaker 1: look like blood under certain circum That's a yes or 342 00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:34,920 Speaker 1: no question, Investigator Morgan, Yes it can. Can can dry 343 00:21:35,080 --> 00:21:39,680 Speaker 1: chocolate look like blood? Well, yes or no? It's simple 344 00:21:39,760 --> 00:21:42,399 Speaker 1: yes or nokay. Aren't you capable in What they're saying 345 00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:45,199 Speaker 1: by doing that is that they're diminishing you in the 346 00:21:45,240 --> 00:21:48,000 Speaker 1: eyes of the jury. They're trying to make you look 347 00:21:48,040 --> 00:21:50,760 Speaker 1: like a fool. And trust me, chief among sinners, I've 348 00:21:50,800 --> 00:21:52,520 Speaker 1: looked like a fool up on the stand. You learn 349 00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:55,679 Speaker 1: these lessons. So when the officers are looking at this 350 00:21:55,840 --> 00:21:58,720 Speaker 1: and they have to do an official report, they cannot 351 00:21:58,800 --> 00:22:03,440 Speaker 1: say that this is definitively blood. But yeah, we do 352 00:22:03,680 --> 00:22:05,960 Speaker 1: wink and nod about it, but that doesn't mean that 353 00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:09,520 Speaker 1: we're going to include it an official report until we 354 00:22:09,600 --> 00:22:12,320 Speaker 1: get somebody out there that can do a presumptive test, 355 00:22:12,359 --> 00:22:15,480 Speaker 1: and the most probably the one that people are most 356 00:22:16,359 --> 00:22:19,000 Speaker 1: familiar with, is something called the castle Meyer test. That's 357 00:22:19,040 --> 00:22:21,080 Speaker 1: been around for years and years. So if you have 358 00:22:21,400 --> 00:22:25,320 Speaker 1: an area that you suspect is blood, you can essentially 359 00:22:25,359 --> 00:22:28,320 Speaker 1: treat that area and make an application there and you'd 360 00:22:28,359 --> 00:22:32,399 Speaker 1: simply look at it. It's what's called a qualifying test. 361 00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:36,840 Speaker 1: You can say, yes, definitively, this is blood. I can't 362 00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:39,960 Speaker 1: say necessarily whose blood it is, but I can say 363 00:22:40,040 --> 00:22:42,480 Speaker 1: this is blood at that point in time. And then 364 00:22:42,560 --> 00:22:45,399 Speaker 1: there's like multiple different steps that you go through. You 365 00:22:45,440 --> 00:22:47,840 Speaker 1: can go all the way to blood typing and take 366 00:22:47,840 --> 00:22:50,680 Speaker 1: that all the way out to DNA, which eventually happens 367 00:22:50,720 --> 00:22:53,639 Speaker 1: in this case. But if you're very very careful. 368 00:22:53,520 --> 00:22:57,359 Speaker 2: Here the officer notices things that he believes could be blood, 369 00:22:57,800 --> 00:23:02,679 Speaker 2: and what else did they find Joe Forensically speaking, what 370 00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:04,640 Speaker 2: else did the officer observe? 371 00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:09,320 Speaker 1: Well, obviously you have these red stains that are about 372 00:23:09,880 --> 00:23:13,520 Speaker 1: and these are and this is this is the first 373 00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:19,000 Speaker 1: blush of the officer. This is before the let's see 374 00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:22,040 Speaker 1: how can I frame this? This is before the actual 375 00:23:22,440 --> 00:23:25,520 Speaker 1: forensic scientists get out there to do their thing and 376 00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:28,920 Speaker 1: see USI before they get out there. And look if 377 00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:33,000 Speaker 1: I've if I'm a police officer and I've been tasked 378 00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:35,200 Speaker 1: with going into a house maybe on a welfare check, 379 00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:37,560 Speaker 1: you know you're looking for a missing person. Look, that's 380 00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:39,440 Speaker 1: that's what this is about at this point in time. 381 00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:42,280 Speaker 1: In this case, you've got a missing mother out there. 382 00:23:42,280 --> 00:23:43,679 Speaker 1: You want to find her. And if you take a 383 00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:49,639 Speaker 1: look a gander around the house, if you will, you 384 00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:52,560 Speaker 1: look around, if you've got what appears to be blood, 385 00:23:52,800 --> 00:24:00,000 Speaker 1: you know that something dynamic happened there. And when you 386 00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:03,679 Speaker 1: see the patterns that are left behind. I think that 387 00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:09,199 Speaker 1: one of the one of the real tremendous pieces of 388 00:24:09,240 --> 00:24:12,280 Speaker 1: evidence here that they were able to kind of identify. 389 00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:17,880 Speaker 1: There was actually a blood spot on a faucet, and 390 00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:20,240 Speaker 1: I think that's in the kitchen if I'm not mistaken. 391 00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:24,240 Speaker 1: And why would there be blood on facet Well? Do 392 00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:27,119 Speaker 1: people just bleed in homes? Yeah, people bleed all the 393 00:24:27,119 --> 00:24:30,159 Speaker 1: time in homes. The trick is you have to determine 394 00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:34,200 Speaker 1: whose blood is that, and who you know who who 395 00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:39,240 Speaker 1: does it actually track back to? But here here's the thing, David, 396 00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:42,399 Speaker 1: this is specifically what we were talking about earlier. You 397 00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:45,840 Speaker 1: can have blood like contact trace blood where if you 398 00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:48,240 Speaker 1: if you get blood on your hand, anybody that's ever 399 00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:52,600 Speaker 1: had blood issuing from your body. I'll give you an example. 400 00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:52,919 Speaker 2: I get. 401 00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:56,200 Speaker 1: I get bloody noses all the time, all right, and 402 00:24:56,240 --> 00:24:59,160 Speaker 1: particularly this time of year, once really cold out, dry air, 403 00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:01,680 Speaker 1: and and I might wake up in the middle of 404 00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:03,840 Speaker 1: the night my nose is bleeding and I've got blood, 405 00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:06,240 Speaker 1: you know, on my pillow. Well, that's not a real 406 00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:11,480 Speaker 1: dynamic deposition of blood. That's a transfer, and so it'll 407 00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:15,320 Speaker 1: be smeared. The droplets will have no evidence of real 408 00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:22,560 Speaker 1: velocity to it. But in Jennifer's case, there is an 409 00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:28,040 Speaker 1: image that was put up by Daily Mail. And when 410 00:25:28,119 --> 00:25:32,120 Speaker 1: Daily Mail put that image up, I had this light 411 00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:35,200 Speaker 1: bulb that went off and I knew that something horrific 412 00:25:35,280 --> 00:25:38,520 Speaker 1: had happened in that garage. And this is why there 413 00:25:38,520 --> 00:25:41,440 Speaker 1: are two droplets that are on the floor, and these 414 00:25:41,440 --> 00:25:44,680 Speaker 1: are dynamic droplets. That means that there is movement with them. 415 00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:47,920 Speaker 1: If you will just think about almost like a tear 416 00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:50,719 Speaker 1: drop shape. When you think about a tear drop kind 417 00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:53,080 Speaker 1: of how it falls, free falls, you know, like this, 418 00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:55,880 Speaker 1: and you get this image. I think it's more art 419 00:25:55,960 --> 00:25:59,280 Speaker 1: than it is science. But it's because liquid falls through 420 00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:01,600 Speaker 1: the air a perfect sphere. I don't know if people 421 00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:04,320 Speaker 1: realize that blood in particular does when it falls. It's 422 00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:07,960 Speaker 1: falling in a perfect sphere before it strikes the ground 423 00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:11,360 Speaker 1: and it makes this pattern. But with this, it's got 424 00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:16,760 Speaker 1: a tear drop pattern. And there's two blood droplets that 425 00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:21,040 Speaker 1: are lying parallel to one another. The more narrow end 426 00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:24,679 Speaker 1: of the blood droplet gives you the indication of movement. 427 00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:29,199 Speaker 1: It's almost like you have got an arrow pointing in 428 00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:32,639 Speaker 1: the direction of which the blood was flying. And Dave 429 00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:38,040 Speaker 1: on the floor of that garage, there were two blood 430 00:26:38,119 --> 00:26:42,480 Speaker 1: droplets and they are pointing in one particular direction. To me, 431 00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:49,240 Speaker 1: that's an indication of violence because those blood droplets are 432 00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:54,000 Speaker 1: what we would classify as low velocity blood spatter patterns. 433 00:26:54,760 --> 00:26:59,359 Speaker 1: And you know, and the way we classify these patterns 434 00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:04,959 Speaker 1: is that low velocity is like hands feet. Just imagine 435 00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:09,200 Speaker 1: how much energy could you generate with your bare hands 436 00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:15,159 Speaker 1: if you're striking somebody. Okay, you could do it with 437 00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:20,600 Speaker 1: a knife that would be cast off. Okay, medium velocity, 438 00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:25,960 Speaker 1: maybe a bat you generate our lead pipe, you generate 439 00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:30,280 Speaker 1: that kind of velocity. And high velocity, the particulate bits 440 00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:33,320 Speaker 1: of blood they are left behind. That's going to happen 441 00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:37,320 Speaker 1: with a firearm. Okay, it almost becomes like an aspirit. 442 00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:42,119 Speaker 1: It's very tiny, so that this is low velocity that 443 00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:45,360 Speaker 1: you're seeing in this image. And Dave, I think, I 444 00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:50,720 Speaker 1: think that something violent happened to Jennifer Doulas on the 445 00:27:50,840 --> 00:27:57,000 Speaker 1: floor of that garage, and something generated that blood and 446 00:27:57,080 --> 00:28:01,919 Speaker 1: deposited it on the floor, perhaps adjacent to where she 447 00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:22,159 Speaker 1: had been laying. If you figured that the human body 448 00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:24,880 Speaker 1: holds I don't know, and a lot of it's deepened 449 00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:31,760 Speaker 1: upon the size, your size, and the age development male 450 00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:36,399 Speaker 1: versus female, But roughly perhaps just under two gallons of blood. 451 00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:44,600 Speaker 1: If if you are traumatized and your heart continues to beat, 452 00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:52,160 Speaker 1: you're going to have a huge amount of deposition on 453 00:28:52,360 --> 00:28:57,120 Speaker 1: whatever surface you're lying upon or standing upon. Here here's 454 00:28:57,160 --> 00:29:03,760 Speaker 1: the thing when if you sustain a head strike, the 455 00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:06,480 Speaker 1: head is probably the most vascular area. It is the 456 00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:09,120 Speaker 1: most vascular area in the human body. That's why you know, 457 00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:11,640 Speaker 1: like our if we popped in the mouth and get 458 00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:13,840 Speaker 1: a bloody lip or our nose, it seems like it 459 00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:16,200 Speaker 1: won't quit bleeding. And for anybody out there that's ever 460 00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:18,479 Speaker 1: had blood impact to your head and you've you know 461 00:29:18,520 --> 00:29:20,680 Speaker 1: down here in the South, they uh, you know, mc 462 00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:23,360 Speaker 1: granny would say, or you're gonna bust your head wide open. 463 00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:27,040 Speaker 1: And if you split your head open, you bleed profusely. 464 00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:30,560 Speaker 1: It doesn't necessarily mean that it's a lethal trauma. But 465 00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:34,360 Speaker 1: your head is so vascular. If you don't stem that bleeding, 466 00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:35,800 Speaker 1: you're gonna bleed all over the place. 467 00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:41,440 Speaker 2: But in the case of what they found in the garage, Joe, yeah, 468 00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:44,320 Speaker 2: can you tell how long the blood has been there? 469 00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:48,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, you can. And one of the fascinating things about 470 00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:52,000 Speaker 1: blood is that when you first come upon it, if 471 00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:56,800 Speaker 1: you have a wet sample out there, and particularly when 472 00:29:56,840 --> 00:29:59,720 Speaker 1: you see a big pool of blood, one of the 473 00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:03,120 Speaker 1: fat things that happens is this, before the blood actually dries, 474 00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:09,040 Speaker 1: you'll begin to see the blood and the serum separate 475 00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:12,280 Speaker 1: from one another, and so you'll have on one side. 476 00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:18,520 Speaker 1: You know, blood is not a it is a multi 477 00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:22,480 Speaker 1: component substance. So you know you've got a lot of 478 00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:26,920 Speaker 1: ingredients that go into blood. You've got RBC's red blood cells, 479 00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:30,920 Speaker 1: you got white blood cells, you got plasma, and so 480 00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:35,320 Speaker 1: you know you've got all of these elements of blood, 481 00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:38,160 Speaker 1: but the serum will actually separate off of the blood. 482 00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:40,960 Speaker 1: So you'll have this kind of clear yellowish liquid on 483 00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:42,920 Speaker 1: one side of a pool of blood, and then you'll 484 00:30:42,920 --> 00:30:47,920 Speaker 1: have what looks like the RBC's have migrated to one side. 485 00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:51,040 Speaker 1: You see that that's generally with like a really big grouping, 486 00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:54,160 Speaker 1: and that takes that that would take a couple of 487 00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:57,480 Speaker 1: hours for that to actually begin to occur, But as 488 00:30:57,520 --> 00:31:01,479 Speaker 1: the blood dries it it takes on specific appearance deepended 489 00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:03,000 Speaker 1: upon how long it's been out all right. 490 00:31:03,040 --> 00:31:06,320 Speaker 2: Now, the reason we're talking about Jennifer Dulo's disappearance and 491 00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:11,360 Speaker 2: the trial of Michelle traconis because they believed that they, 492 00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:15,960 Speaker 2: being officials, believed that there was enough evidence to prove 493 00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:24,600 Speaker 2: that Jennifer Dulos died and that voters that they off. 494 00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:30,320 Speaker 2: They believed that VOTs Dullos planned it all out, rode 495 00:31:30,360 --> 00:31:34,520 Speaker 2: his bike to Jennifer Dulas's home, waited light and wait 496 00:31:34,600 --> 00:31:38,160 Speaker 2: in her garage, beat her to death at her home, 497 00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:42,440 Speaker 2: and then loaded her body, either dead or dying, into 498 00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:46,400 Speaker 2: her suburban. Drove the suburban a couple of miles away 499 00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:53,760 Speaker 2: near a lake, where he then transferred her body from 500 00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:56,960 Speaker 2: the suburban into a truck he borrowed without permission from 501 00:31:56,960 --> 00:32:00,760 Speaker 2: a coworker or at one of his employees rather and 502 00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:02,440 Speaker 2: then through the bike in the back of the truck. 503 00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:05,560 Speaker 2: He'd put the bike that he rode to Jennifer Dulo's house, 504 00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:07,720 Speaker 2: he put it in the suburban with her body. He 505 00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:10,920 Speaker 2: transfers her body and the bike leaves the suburban park 506 00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:16,040 Speaker 2: to abandoned. He then drives in the truck, the pickup truck, 507 00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:18,800 Speaker 2: to wherever it is that he is going to dispose 508 00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:21,600 Speaker 2: of Jennifer Dulo's body. And I have to say that 509 00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:25,479 Speaker 2: we have not located her body at this point, and 510 00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:30,720 Speaker 2: so police are utilizing They're getting information from the house, 511 00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:36,360 Speaker 2: from the garage, the ten rolls of unaccounted for paper towels. 512 00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:41,360 Speaker 2: They also have been able to look at the seat 513 00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:46,160 Speaker 2: in the truck that he borrowed without permission from an employee. 514 00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:52,040 Speaker 2: And forensically speaking, Joe, I'm asking, can they they being investigators? 515 00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:54,800 Speaker 2: They're using everything from you know, the blood testing in 516 00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:57,720 Speaker 2: all these different areas, but they're also investigators have been 517 00:32:57,720 --> 00:33:01,080 Speaker 2: able to track his movements that a photos duos using 518 00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:03,840 Speaker 2: cameras all around town, security cameras and things like that, 519 00:33:04,520 --> 00:33:07,480 Speaker 2: and that's why Michelle Traconas is on trial because later 520 00:33:07,520 --> 00:33:10,840 Speaker 2: in the day, the day that Michelle that Jennifer Dulos 521 00:33:10,840 --> 00:33:16,680 Speaker 2: goes missing, Dula, Photus Dulos, and Michelle Traconis are seen 522 00:33:17,280 --> 00:33:22,240 Speaker 2: driving around town dropping off bags of trash in public 523 00:33:22,880 --> 00:33:27,320 Speaker 2: trash cans, receptacles, and as police were investigating, they went 524 00:33:27,360 --> 00:33:30,360 Speaker 2: and found some of these trash bags and determined that 525 00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:34,680 Speaker 2: they had Jennifer Dulo's DNA. I'm speed dialing this because 526 00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:37,800 Speaker 2: that's what the that's what police say happened, and that's 527 00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:40,520 Speaker 2: what they're trying to prove in court that Michelle Traconas 528 00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:44,640 Speaker 2: was She's seen on video with Photus Dulos dropping these 529 00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:47,960 Speaker 2: bags of trash. But how are they going to prove 530 00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:51,360 Speaker 2: Joe that it was Potus Dulos that did the killing 531 00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:54,240 Speaker 2: in the garage, that it was photos Dulos that transported 532 00:33:54,240 --> 00:33:56,360 Speaker 2: her body, that it was photos I mean, was it 533 00:33:56,400 --> 00:33:57,280 Speaker 2: not his employee? 534 00:33:57,560 --> 00:34:00,760 Speaker 3: What if his employee, who by the way. 535 00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:03,520 Speaker 2: Doulos had had a haircut, had a shaped had similar 536 00:34:03,600 --> 00:34:06,000 Speaker 2: to the employee who owned the truck that he borrowed. 537 00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:09,680 Speaker 2: I mean, could is it not possible that an employee, 538 00:34:09,680 --> 00:34:12,160 Speaker 2: if Photos Delas had a thing for Jennifer, and he 539 00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:13,040 Speaker 2: went and killed her. 540 00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:17,600 Speaker 1: And I think that if if photos Dulos, who has 541 00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:23,040 Speaker 1: deprived us of his presence now in his life, you know, 542 00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:27,640 Speaker 1: he that if if we were having his trial, I 543 00:34:27,640 --> 00:34:29,720 Speaker 1: think that that's one of the points that would be argued. 544 00:34:30,120 --> 00:34:34,920 Speaker 1: What you know, they they arrested Dulo's foid us. 545 00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:38,640 Speaker 2: Yes, and he committed suicide the day after he was 546 00:34:38,719 --> 00:34:39,680 Speaker 2: charged with their murder. 547 00:34:39,960 --> 00:34:42,799 Speaker 1: He did. And you know one of the things that's 548 00:34:42,800 --> 00:34:45,879 Speaker 1: really fascinating, Dave, that you don't see a lot. They 549 00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:50,839 Speaker 1: consulted the medical examiner to render an opinion about this, 550 00:34:51,200 --> 00:34:57,439 Speaker 1: and it was fascinating. And and here here's essentially what 551 00:34:57,480 --> 00:35:01,000 Speaker 1: the medical examiner came up with. Keep in mind, this 552 00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:02,200 Speaker 1: is absent. 553 00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:04,880 Speaker 3: A body, so something happens where they consult. 554 00:35:05,040 --> 00:35:09,040 Speaker 1: No, they do, they will, but it's really hard for 555 00:35:09,080 --> 00:35:12,799 Speaker 1: an me to make a determination. But my god, Dave, 556 00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:15,520 Speaker 1: they were so specific. This is what they actually said 557 00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:19,960 Speaker 1: the medical examiner. Now this is the medical examiner stating 558 00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:26,839 Speaker 1: this categorize the incident involving Jennifer as homicidal violence and 559 00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:33,759 Speaker 1: also stated that would likely include some combination of traumatic 560 00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:39,560 Speaker 1: blunt force trauma or blunt force injuries such as you're 561 00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:44,520 Speaker 1: ready for this bludgeoning, beating, and or sharp force injuries 562 00:35:45,040 --> 00:35:50,799 Speaker 1: such as stabbing or slashing. So that without that, how 563 00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:53,000 Speaker 1: do you draw that conclusion? I go back to the 564 00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:59,759 Speaker 1: blood deposition. If if you're talking about dynamic blood deposition, 565 00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:06,120 Speaker 1: the only thing that would be, in my estimation, the 566 00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:10,440 Speaker 1: only thing that the emmy could draw upon unless they 567 00:36:10,520 --> 00:36:15,160 Speaker 1: have evidence of how much are what volume of blood 568 00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:19,920 Speaker 1: was spilled on the scene and then attempted to be 569 00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:22,960 Speaker 1: have been cleaned up? Because you remember I talked about 570 00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:25,240 Speaker 1: the volume of blood that we carry around in our bodies. 571 00:36:26,320 --> 00:36:29,440 Speaker 1: There's a term, and I may have said this before, 572 00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:33,040 Speaker 1: but there's a term that's used in forensic pathology that 573 00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:37,040 Speaker 1: states the volume of blood is in the volume of 574 00:36:37,120 --> 00:36:41,480 Speaker 1: blood that is deposited at the scene is incompatible with life. 575 00:36:42,280 --> 00:36:44,560 Speaker 1: So if you show up at a scene and you've 576 00:36:44,560 --> 00:36:47,719 Speaker 1: got a huge volume of blood at the scene, the 577 00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:52,360 Speaker 1: medical examiner could opine that if this much of blood 578 00:36:52,400 --> 00:36:55,680 Speaker 1: is outside of somebody's body, they ain't with us anymore. 579 00:36:55,840 --> 00:36:57,480 Speaker 3: That makes sense, But how do they know that? Here 580 00:36:57,520 --> 00:36:59,920 Speaker 3: we got two droplets. 581 00:36:59,640 --> 00:37:03,440 Speaker 1: I know exactly. So that brings us to this idea 582 00:37:03,600 --> 00:37:10,680 Speaker 1: that perhaps they have evidence of some kind of vast 583 00:37:10,719 --> 00:37:16,680 Speaker 1: cleanup that took place relative to this, along with the 584 00:37:16,760 --> 00:37:20,720 Speaker 1: velocity at which this blood was deposited, that it's only 585 00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:25,400 Speaker 1: going to arise if you have this kind of deposition 586 00:37:26,239 --> 00:37:34,080 Speaker 1: that is, from a velocity standpoint, is consistent with low velocity, 587 00:37:34,120 --> 00:37:36,080 Speaker 1: because that's the only way you come up with this 588 00:37:36,160 --> 00:37:39,080 Speaker 1: idea of slashing. If you draw a knife across somebody, 589 00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:42,319 Speaker 1: if you if you plunge a knife into somebody and 590 00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:45,360 Speaker 1: you draw it back off, you cast it off. You 591 00:37:45,400 --> 00:37:47,919 Speaker 1: can cast off. Just imagine sticking a paint brush into 592 00:37:47,920 --> 00:37:50,880 Speaker 1: a paint can and throwing it over your shoulder, you know, 593 00:37:50,920 --> 00:37:54,920 Speaker 1: flipping the brush over your shoulder, that's cast off. Or 594 00:37:55,320 --> 00:37:58,000 Speaker 1: if somebody is being impacted where they're down on the 595 00:37:58,000 --> 00:38:01,440 Speaker 1: floor and they're being beaten or kicked, Okay, which is 596 00:38:02,000 --> 00:38:05,360 Speaker 1: horrific to think about this mother of five, you know, 597 00:38:05,440 --> 00:38:10,160 Speaker 1: in this position on the floor. It's it's quite it's 598 00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:13,560 Speaker 1: it's quite the thing when you begin to, you know, 599 00:38:13,680 --> 00:38:17,000 Speaker 1: kind of consider what are they going to do with 600 00:38:17,040 --> 00:38:20,680 Speaker 1: this case with traconas because they're they're talking about her. 601 00:38:20,840 --> 00:38:25,680 Speaker 1: Her trial really at its at its core, comes down 602 00:38:25,760 --> 00:38:32,400 Speaker 1: to her aiding Foydus do loos in destruction of evidence 603 00:38:32,760 --> 00:38:35,839 Speaker 1: and that that's that's what they're actually, you know, kind 604 00:38:35,840 --> 00:38:39,560 Speaker 1: of saying here. So I don't know how. I'm hoping 605 00:38:39,840 --> 00:38:42,480 Speaker 1: that as this trial progresses, we're going to hear more 606 00:38:43,200 --> 00:38:46,240 Speaker 1: about the bloodstained evidence and not just in We've already 607 00:38:46,280 --> 00:38:49,880 Speaker 1: had a DNA expert that has come on to the stand, 608 00:38:49,960 --> 00:38:53,719 Speaker 1: has talked about the probability, and they've excluded everybody. They 609 00:38:53,719 --> 00:38:57,520 Speaker 1: did cheek swabs on all of the kids. Uh, Floyda's Doulos. 610 00:38:57,920 --> 00:39:01,680 Speaker 1: You're the employee that you mentioned. They got him, They've 611 00:39:01,680 --> 00:39:04,520 Speaker 1: got Lauren. They had to do because you have to exclude, 612 00:39:04,800 --> 00:39:06,360 Speaker 1: you know, the blood that you have present. 613 00:39:06,560 --> 00:39:10,120 Speaker 2: I mentioned that employee just because those as Joe and 614 00:39:10,160 --> 00:39:12,840 Speaker 2: I both are told you earlier. The trials ongoing of 615 00:39:12,840 --> 00:39:16,759 Speaker 2: Mitchell Traconus, Uh, the employee that owned the truck that 616 00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:21,080 Speaker 2: did not give Dulo's permission to use the truck. Las 617 00:39:21,120 --> 00:39:23,839 Speaker 2: actually took it twice. He took it two separate times, 618 00:39:24,040 --> 00:39:26,319 Speaker 2: and police have said that he that Delos cut his 619 00:39:26,400 --> 00:39:30,600 Speaker 2: hair to match this employee so as to see uh 620 00:39:30,920 --> 00:39:36,200 Speaker 2: if on cameras around town, Uh, they actually see Doulos, 621 00:39:36,800 --> 00:39:38,760 Speaker 2: but from a distance, hey man, that could be the employee. 622 00:39:38,760 --> 00:39:40,840 Speaker 2: That's why I said that earlier. You know, the defense 623 00:39:40,920 --> 00:39:42,839 Speaker 2: is going to hang on that. But Joe, would they 624 00:39:42,880 --> 00:39:45,480 Speaker 2: be able to get they being investigators, are you going 625 00:39:45,520 --> 00:39:47,840 Speaker 2: to be able to get I know we have blood 626 00:39:47,880 --> 00:39:50,440 Speaker 2: in the garage. Are we going to have blood or 627 00:39:50,560 --> 00:39:53,640 Speaker 2: some type of DNA in the suburban that's going to 628 00:39:53,680 --> 00:39:54,240 Speaker 2: be traceable? 629 00:39:54,280 --> 00:39:55,560 Speaker 3: Are we going to have it in the front of 630 00:39:55,600 --> 00:39:55,959 Speaker 3: the truck? 631 00:39:56,000 --> 00:40:00,000 Speaker 2: And because we know that, we know that Doulo's actually 632 00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:03,560 Speaker 2: he took the truck that he borrowed without permission and 633 00:40:03,760 --> 00:40:09,680 Speaker 2: washed it out, scrubbed the floor, the seat. Would DNA 634 00:40:09,880 --> 00:40:14,359 Speaker 2: or would some type of genetic material from the victim here, 635 00:40:14,400 --> 00:40:18,439 Speaker 2: Jennifer Dollas rest in that passenger seat if he put 636 00:40:18,440 --> 00:40:20,239 Speaker 2: her in there? Would they be able to find out? 637 00:40:20,680 --> 00:40:23,960 Speaker 1: Well? They could. The most essential thing from a forensic 638 00:40:23,960 --> 00:40:29,000 Speaker 1: standpoint is that you categorize that deposition. Was it something 639 00:40:29,000 --> 00:40:32,840 Speaker 1: that was generated if they come across DNA there? Okay, 640 00:40:32,880 --> 00:40:36,440 Speaker 1: what type of DNA sourcing are you referring to? Is 641 00:40:36,480 --> 00:40:41,319 Speaker 1: it blood deposition like from a blood droplet? Was it 642 00:40:41,360 --> 00:40:46,919 Speaker 1: a sneeze, was it hair? Was it touched DNA where 643 00:40:46,960 --> 00:40:50,839 Speaker 1: you've got partial strand that's left behind? Did I don't know. 644 00:40:50,960 --> 00:40:54,719 Speaker 1: Maybe Jennifer Dulos was prone to nosebleeds for all we know. 645 00:40:55,200 --> 00:40:59,279 Speaker 1: You know, we don't know, but you can. You can 646 00:40:59,520 --> 00:41:02,520 Speaker 1: if it is her DNA that is there, you can 647 00:41:02,560 --> 00:41:06,719 Speaker 1: specifically identify it to exclude all others, you know, even 648 00:41:06,760 --> 00:41:08,319 Speaker 1: her children. You can do that. 649 00:41:08,719 --> 00:41:10,680 Speaker 2: So they'll be able to trace her from the time 650 00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:15,400 Speaker 2: that allegedly, well, no, Jellus is dad. But the police 651 00:41:15,400 --> 00:41:17,440 Speaker 2: saying that you know, he loaded her into the suburban, 652 00:41:17,600 --> 00:41:19,279 Speaker 2: they'd be able to find out where he laid her 653 00:41:19,320 --> 00:41:20,440 Speaker 2: in the suburban, right. 654 00:41:21,280 --> 00:41:23,360 Speaker 1: They could, And a lot of that would have to 655 00:41:23,400 --> 00:41:26,960 Speaker 1: go to a if you if you take a body 656 00:41:27,719 --> 00:41:34,160 Speaker 1: that is producing or has produced, and is wet from blood. 657 00:41:35,080 --> 00:41:37,960 Speaker 1: I have been on scenes before where bodies have been 658 00:41:38,040 --> 00:41:44,120 Speaker 1: moved from their initial position and you can actually see, 659 00:41:44,320 --> 00:41:48,439 Speaker 1: you can at least project in your mind that this 660 00:41:48,680 --> 00:41:50,960 Speaker 1: looks like this person may have been laying in a 661 00:41:51,000 --> 00:41:53,840 Speaker 1: fetal position. There's a huge deposition up here in a 662 00:41:53,840 --> 00:41:57,279 Speaker 1: smaller area that might be where the head rested. There's 663 00:41:57,320 --> 00:41:59,879 Speaker 1: an absence of blood here, but down here there's more, 664 00:42:00,520 --> 00:42:02,759 Speaker 1: and you can kind of visualize in your mind what 665 00:42:02,840 --> 00:42:05,160 Speaker 1: position the body would but it would have to be 666 00:42:05,600 --> 00:42:08,919 Speaker 1: such a copious amount of blood in order to make 667 00:42:08,960 --> 00:42:13,160 Speaker 1: a determination like that, and you know you have to 668 00:42:13,200 --> 00:42:16,799 Speaker 1: look at also a typical why would Okay, I understand 669 00:42:17,680 --> 00:42:21,320 Speaker 1: your blood could be in the front seat of a vehicle, 670 00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:23,799 Speaker 1: going back to my example of a nosebleed. Yeah, I've 671 00:42:23,840 --> 00:42:26,800 Speaker 1: had a nosebleed driving down the road. Is it beyond 672 00:42:26,800 --> 00:42:29,360 Speaker 1: the realm of possibility? I could have it on an armrest, 673 00:42:29,400 --> 00:42:31,920 Speaker 1: even on the steering wheel. You know, it's reaction you 674 00:42:32,040 --> 00:42:35,760 Speaker 1: touch it like that. But why if it's safe, for instance, 675 00:42:35,800 --> 00:42:38,719 Speaker 1: if it's in the back of the truck, why would 676 00:42:38,760 --> 00:42:41,200 Speaker 1: blood be there, Why would her blood be there? And 677 00:42:41,239 --> 00:42:43,680 Speaker 1: why would it be this huge volume of it? 678 00:42:44,040 --> 00:42:46,920 Speaker 2: So that becomes that's why I'm getting to the volume. 679 00:42:46,960 --> 00:42:48,040 Speaker 2: How do you tell how much? 680 00:42:48,680 --> 00:42:53,000 Speaker 1: You really can't there's no way, and people have tried 681 00:42:53,040 --> 00:42:54,840 Speaker 1: to do this before because a lot of it is 682 00:42:54,880 --> 00:42:59,600 Speaker 1: depended upon how degraded the sample is the surface that 683 00:42:59,719 --> 00:43:02,400 Speaker 1: is on. Because if you're talking about carpet, for instance, 684 00:43:02,440 --> 00:43:05,200 Speaker 1: if you're on a carpet surface, dude, there's no way 685 00:43:05,360 --> 00:43:09,160 Speaker 1: to assess a volume of blood in carpet. There's I 686 00:43:09,200 --> 00:43:12,120 Speaker 1: don't know, because it would leads through that it would 687 00:43:12,160 --> 00:43:16,000 Speaker 1: be it would stain the top the actual carpeting, then 688 00:43:16,440 --> 00:43:20,160 Speaker 1: the underlying not the mat below it, but just where 689 00:43:20,200 --> 00:43:23,920 Speaker 1: the carpet is woven through, then to the underneath matt 690 00:43:24,360 --> 00:43:28,320 Speaker 1: and then onto whatever subflooring there is beneath the carpet. 691 00:43:28,360 --> 00:43:31,920 Speaker 1: So you couldn't assess it that way. And even with 692 00:43:32,080 --> 00:43:36,719 Speaker 1: dried blood, let's say, if it was on concrete or 693 00:43:36,760 --> 00:43:43,120 Speaker 1: on on hardwood, I don't think that you could get 694 00:43:43,360 --> 00:43:48,040 Speaker 1: a rive at a reasonable volume. The one way you 695 00:43:48,080 --> 00:43:52,759 Speaker 1: could actually have a guess at it, and maybe this 696 00:43:52,920 --> 00:43:55,600 Speaker 1: is what the EMMY was doing in this particular case, 697 00:43:56,560 --> 00:44:01,520 Speaker 1: was to say, Okay, they have got a enough blood stains, 698 00:44:01,640 --> 00:44:05,840 Speaker 1: or they have there's an indication that this blood was widespread. 699 00:44:06,800 --> 00:44:10,279 Speaker 1: Given that, I can kind of get an idea that 700 00:44:10,320 --> 00:44:12,480 Speaker 1: this was a lot of blood and there's a high 701 00:44:12,560 --> 00:44:15,720 Speaker 1: probability that it would in fact be incompatible with life. 702 00:44:16,120 --> 00:44:19,600 Speaker 1: But you know, we don't. We're at a distinct disadvantage 703 00:44:19,640 --> 00:44:24,000 Speaker 1: here today because Floyd is Doulos is dead and you 704 00:44:24,040 --> 00:44:26,840 Speaker 1: know he and for folks that are not that familiar 705 00:44:26,840 --> 00:44:30,799 Speaker 1: with the case, we have to understand he took his 706 00:44:30,840 --> 00:44:35,000 Speaker 1: own life by carbon monoxide association. He was found within 707 00:44:35,040 --> 00:44:38,920 Speaker 1: a garage and in the front seat of a vehicle, 708 00:44:39,040 --> 00:44:44,560 Speaker 1: slumped over. And here's here's something that the listeners might 709 00:44:44,560 --> 00:44:48,480 Speaker 1: not know. He left a note. And it's not that 710 00:44:48,560 --> 00:44:50,839 Speaker 1: you don't know that he left a note. It is 711 00:44:51,160 --> 00:44:54,800 Speaker 1: did you know that notes in suicides? And in the 712 00:44:54,840 --> 00:44:57,920 Speaker 1: medical legal world, we investigate more suicides than we do homicides. 713 00:44:57,960 --> 00:45:02,880 Speaker 1: They outpace homicides, so generally two or three to one. Yeah, yeah, 714 00:45:02,920 --> 00:45:08,759 Speaker 1: and yeah, yeah, there are more suicides that occur than homicides. 715 00:45:09,440 --> 00:45:13,840 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, you know. And do they all 716 00:45:13,920 --> 00:45:16,239 Speaker 1: leave a note? No, That's what I was going to say. 717 00:45:16,400 --> 00:45:18,680 Speaker 1: For in my experience, I can't speak to all of 718 00:45:18,680 --> 00:45:21,280 Speaker 1: my colleagues all over the country. This is my little 719 00:45:21,280 --> 00:45:25,600 Speaker 1: slice of the pie, Joe Scott's I'll own it. It 720 00:45:25,719 --> 00:45:28,839 Speaker 1: is the exception as opposed to the norm. And I've 721 00:45:28,840 --> 00:45:33,920 Speaker 1: often when I teach suicide investigation, I tell the investigators 722 00:45:33,920 --> 00:45:36,759 Speaker 1: of students i'm teaching, I say, it would seem to 723 00:45:36,800 --> 00:45:40,680 Speaker 1: me at least that with this idea of taking one's life, 724 00:45:41,160 --> 00:45:44,919 Speaker 1: it's almost like you're standing over on a big rock 725 00:45:45,000 --> 00:45:49,360 Speaker 1: ledge over a river and you're either going to do 726 00:45:49,400 --> 00:45:51,080 Speaker 1: it or you're not going to do it. And some 727 00:45:51,120 --> 00:45:53,359 Speaker 1: people just take the jump, and they have to build 728 00:45:53,400 --> 00:45:55,719 Speaker 1: up the courage. And you know, I've had people that 729 00:45:55,760 --> 00:46:00,759 Speaker 1: have gotten really drunk before they did it, that were 730 00:46:00,840 --> 00:46:04,880 Speaker 1: high on drugs. Many of them will not write a note. 731 00:46:04,960 --> 00:46:08,680 Speaker 1: But then again, I actually had a lady many years 732 00:46:08,719 --> 00:46:10,960 Speaker 1: ago that had those do you know those black and 733 00:46:11,000 --> 00:46:14,800 Speaker 1: white composition notebooks that you can buy that are actually 734 00:46:14,840 --> 00:46:18,400 Speaker 1: bound with a spine. Dave. She had thirteen of those, 735 00:46:20,040 --> 00:46:24,480 Speaker 1: thirteen front and back page, and they were all a 736 00:46:24,520 --> 00:46:27,840 Speaker 1: suicide note that had gone on and on and on 737 00:46:28,000 --> 00:46:31,759 Speaker 1: and on and on. It would seem, you know, she's 738 00:46:31,880 --> 00:46:33,520 Speaker 1: just pouring her soul out in these things. And I 739 00:46:33,560 --> 00:46:36,360 Speaker 1: read through the entire you know, through this entire collection. 740 00:46:36,480 --> 00:46:39,080 Speaker 1: I did have that happen several times. But to have 741 00:46:39,200 --> 00:46:42,680 Speaker 1: someone leave a note many times, it's like they've been 742 00:46:43,480 --> 00:46:48,160 Speaker 1: the psychiatrist referred to it as suicidal ideation. They will 743 00:46:48,160 --> 00:46:51,000 Speaker 1: have this ideation, this thought of suicide, and finally they 744 00:46:51,040 --> 00:46:54,279 Speaker 1: decide to act on it. But Dula's took the time 745 00:46:54,320 --> 00:46:56,520 Speaker 1: to write the note, and I find this is really 746 00:46:57,120 --> 00:47:03,040 Speaker 1: really interesting. In the note, he actually talks about how 747 00:47:04,120 --> 00:47:07,239 Speaker 1: and this is paraphrasing that Traconas had nothing to do 748 00:47:07,360 --> 00:47:11,720 Speaker 1: with Jennifer's disappearance. But he's saying that he's not guilty 749 00:47:11,760 --> 00:47:15,080 Speaker 1: of this, right, and he's also saying that his lawyer friend, 750 00:47:15,160 --> 00:47:20,560 Speaker 1: who by the way, has apparently been caught up in 751 00:47:20,600 --> 00:47:24,600 Speaker 1: this and his charged he allegedly dug a grave dave 752 00:47:25,680 --> 00:47:29,960 Speaker 1: as part of this little confederacy that their alleging took place. 753 00:47:31,920 --> 00:47:33,960 Speaker 1: He says he had nothing to do with it, and 754 00:47:34,000 --> 00:47:36,319 Speaker 1: that they are not to harass his family or his 755 00:47:36,320 --> 00:47:38,840 Speaker 1: friends and all this stuff. And so, by virtue of 756 00:47:38,880 --> 00:47:41,359 Speaker 1: that bit of knowlogy began to think about this and 757 00:47:41,560 --> 00:47:45,719 Speaker 1: it's okay, well, you're saying that Traconas had nothing to 758 00:47:45,760 --> 00:47:49,360 Speaker 1: do with Jennifer's disappearance. How do you know she's the 759 00:47:49,400 --> 00:47:52,120 Speaker 1: other woman for all I know, she's jealous and. 760 00:47:52,080 --> 00:47:54,680 Speaker 2: We have video dropping trash that night that we know 761 00:47:54,880 --> 00:47:58,040 Speaker 2: had some of her d Jennifer's DNA on these rags 762 00:47:58,040 --> 00:47:59,960 Speaker 2: that had blood on them that were dumped in track. 763 00:48:00,800 --> 00:48:02,719 Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, video yeah. 764 00:48:02,719 --> 00:48:06,320 Speaker 1: And he you know, he takes his life by carbon 765 00:48:06,520 --> 00:48:13,480 Speaker 1: monoxide association, which again is is it happens. It's it's 766 00:48:13,520 --> 00:48:17,000 Speaker 1: something that's common or for over the years, particularly in 767 00:48:17,120 --> 00:48:21,240 Speaker 1: urban areas where you have a garage, this this happens. 768 00:48:21,280 --> 00:48:24,080 Speaker 1: I've had people that have run pipes into cars. I 769 00:48:24,120 --> 00:48:28,840 Speaker 1: had a guy that actually had a car, had a truck. 770 00:48:30,120 --> 00:48:32,520 Speaker 1: He went to Great Links in a tragic case. But 771 00:48:32,600 --> 00:48:35,440 Speaker 1: he had had a truck that was up on blocks 772 00:48:35,520 --> 00:48:37,440 Speaker 1: dave that was outside of his window, and the engine 773 00:48:37,560 --> 00:48:40,400 Speaker 1: ran and he used a glass cutter to cut a 774 00:48:40,440 --> 00:48:45,320 Speaker 1: hole in his bedroom window, ran a drier vent pipe, 775 00:48:45,360 --> 00:48:48,480 Speaker 1: a really long one, the kind of expandable ones, into 776 00:48:48,520 --> 00:48:52,400 Speaker 1: the hole in the window, and taped off his tailpipe. 777 00:48:52,440 --> 00:48:56,000 Speaker 1: With this thing sealed, it went into this home, laid 778 00:48:56,040 --> 00:48:59,799 Speaker 1: down the bed with the cremaines, which are the you know, 779 00:49:00,200 --> 00:49:02,600 Speaker 1: the cremator remains of both his wife and daughter laying 780 00:49:02,600 --> 00:49:05,880 Speaker 1: on the bed next to him, and assixiated himself on 781 00:49:05,920 --> 00:49:10,840 Speaker 1: the bed. So I've seen this before. Some people choose 782 00:49:10,920 --> 00:49:17,560 Speaker 1: to go out this way. But here's the problem. Any 783 00:49:17,719 --> 00:49:21,880 Speaker 1: knowledge that we might have of what actually happened to 784 00:49:22,000 --> 00:49:27,760 Speaker 1: Jennifer Doulos, I think at least may have died along 785 00:49:28,000 --> 00:49:34,439 Speaker 1: with Floydus Dulos. My hope is is it through forensics, 786 00:49:35,320 --> 00:49:42,839 Speaker 1: perhaps we can resurrect her and have Jennifer tell her story. 787 00:49:43,040 --> 00:49:46,800 Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is body Backs