1 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:09,240 Speaker 1: Hello everybody, and welcome back to the Psychology of Your Twenties, 2 00:00:09,880 --> 00:00:12,240 Speaker 1: the podcast where we talk through some of the big 3 00:00:12,480 --> 00:00:16,840 Speaker 1: life changes and transitions of our twenties and what they 4 00:00:16,920 --> 00:00:20,360 Speaker 1: mean for our psychology. 5 00:00:22,360 --> 00:00:25,759 Speaker 2: Hello everybody, Welcome back to the show. Welcome back to 6 00:00:25,840 --> 00:00:26,600 Speaker 2: the podcast. 7 00:00:27,400 --> 00:00:27,800 Speaker 1: Today. 8 00:00:27,920 --> 00:00:31,400 Speaker 2: I've got another little bonus episode for you guys. So 9 00:00:31,520 --> 00:00:35,080 Speaker 2: these shorter episodes are a little bit different from our 10 00:00:35,159 --> 00:00:37,880 Speaker 2: usual deep dives. Think of them as like little coffee 11 00:00:37,880 --> 00:00:41,800 Speaker 2: break chats where we tend to just unpack a single term, 12 00:00:42,000 --> 00:00:46,400 Speaker 2: a single theory, a single psychological concept that is probably 13 00:00:46,479 --> 00:00:50,600 Speaker 2: misunderstood or just thrown around pretty casually. And the goal 14 00:00:50,680 --> 00:00:52,360 Speaker 2: here is just to give you something that you can 15 00:00:52,440 --> 00:00:54,760 Speaker 2: kind of listen to on the go, to give you, 16 00:00:54,840 --> 00:00:57,680 Speaker 2: like just enough clarity to be a little bit more 17 00:00:57,720 --> 00:01:01,320 Speaker 2: confident when you hear these terms pop up, but also 18 00:01:01,800 --> 00:01:03,840 Speaker 2: just like for your commute, when you don't want to 19 00:01:03,840 --> 00:01:06,240 Speaker 2: listen to like a forty five minute hour long episode. 20 00:01:06,959 --> 00:01:11,280 Speaker 2: This is the this is the alternative. Today's topic though, 21 00:01:11,880 --> 00:01:17,520 Speaker 2: is one I get asked about all the time. Sociopathy. 22 00:01:18,000 --> 00:01:21,640 Speaker 2: This is a term that is floating around everywhere at 23 00:01:21,640 --> 00:01:24,880 Speaker 2: the moment. It has been for a while on TikTok 24 00:01:25,200 --> 00:01:28,640 Speaker 2: when it comes to true crime content, even like in 25 00:01:28,760 --> 00:01:33,399 Speaker 2: dating advice, and often in ways that aren't exactly accurate. 26 00:01:33,640 --> 00:01:35,360 Speaker 2: So we're going to talk about it today. What is 27 00:01:35,600 --> 00:01:41,080 Speaker 2: sociopathy actually mean, what does it not mean? And how 28 00:01:41,080 --> 00:01:44,960 Speaker 2: does it different from somebody who's a psychopath or a narcissist. 29 00:01:45,000 --> 00:01:47,040 Speaker 2: There's so many different distinctions that we need to make. 30 00:01:47,160 --> 00:01:53,600 Speaker 2: But first things first, sociopathy isn't actually a clinical diagnosis 31 00:01:53,600 --> 00:01:57,360 Speaker 2: in modern psychology. You will not open the DSM five 32 00:01:57,880 --> 00:02:03,800 Speaker 2: and find sociopathy listed as a formal disorder. Anyone who 33 00:02:03,840 --> 00:02:06,520 Speaker 2: tells you that does not know what they're talking about. 34 00:02:06,880 --> 00:02:14,200 Speaker 2: What you will find, however, is antisocial personality disorder or ASPD. Sociopathy. 35 00:02:14,320 --> 00:02:18,880 Speaker 2: Calling someone a sociopath is more so a cultural term. 36 00:02:19,600 --> 00:02:23,720 Speaker 2: Historically it was used at times by a psychologists to 37 00:02:23,720 --> 00:02:26,880 Speaker 2: describe a particular kind of person. But now we call 38 00:02:26,919 --> 00:02:32,640 Speaker 2: it ASPD antisocial personality disorder. What does that disorder? What 39 00:02:32,680 --> 00:02:36,480 Speaker 2: does that come to describe? So the American Psychiatric Association 40 00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:41,480 Speaker 2: defines ASPD as a pattern of disregard for and the 41 00:02:41,560 --> 00:02:45,440 Speaker 2: violation of the rights of others. It often begins in 42 00:02:45,600 --> 00:02:50,360 Speaker 2: childhood or early adolescents. It continues into adulthood, and people 43 00:02:50,760 --> 00:02:55,000 Speaker 2: with ASPD may find it harder to develop empathy for people. 44 00:02:55,360 --> 00:02:59,040 Speaker 2: They have a lack of regard for social norms. They 45 00:02:59,080 --> 00:03:04,079 Speaker 2: are often sitful, highly irritable, have some kind of conduct 46 00:03:04,280 --> 00:03:09,839 Speaker 2: issue or disorder, and show more erratic or impulsive behaviors. 47 00:03:10,440 --> 00:03:14,880 Speaker 2: This is kind of what a sociopath is now seen 48 00:03:14,919 --> 00:03:19,240 Speaker 2: as now Because of this impulsivity, sociopaths are often seen 49 00:03:19,240 --> 00:03:26,240 Speaker 2: as people who are very reactive and very quick to 50 00:03:26,360 --> 00:03:30,239 Speaker 2: maybe anger or hurt others. It might also be unsurprising 51 00:03:30,280 --> 00:03:33,360 Speaker 2: that they also have a lot of substance use issues. 52 00:03:33,880 --> 00:03:36,360 Speaker 2: One survey found that they're almost seven to eight times 53 00:03:36,400 --> 00:03:39,560 Speaker 2: more likely to meet the criteria for alcohol dependence and 54 00:03:39,720 --> 00:03:42,640 Speaker 2: fifteen to seventeen more times likely to meet the criteria 55 00:03:42,680 --> 00:03:47,920 Speaker 2: for drug dependence, and the prevalence of ASPD in prison 56 00:03:47,960 --> 00:03:53,360 Speaker 2: settings is incredibly high. The amount of people that you 57 00:03:53,400 --> 00:03:57,200 Speaker 2: would find who have had interaction with the legal system 58 00:03:57,240 --> 00:04:01,280 Speaker 2: who would receive a diagnosis of anti social personality disorder 59 00:04:01,400 --> 00:04:04,960 Speaker 2: or sociopathy if you want to use the old term, 60 00:04:05,120 --> 00:04:08,920 Speaker 2: is around the one in three mark or In one 61 00:04:08,960 --> 00:04:10,960 Speaker 2: study they did in two thousand and one, they looked 62 00:04:10,960 --> 00:04:14,360 Speaker 2: at twenty three thousand prisoners. It was one in two, 63 00:04:14,720 --> 00:04:18,960 Speaker 2: almost fifty percent of people who are in prison. We 64 00:04:19,040 --> 00:04:22,240 Speaker 2: could flippantly call them sociopaths. They would have a lot 65 00:04:22,240 --> 00:04:27,400 Speaker 2: of the characteristics of this anti social personality disorder. So 66 00:04:27,480 --> 00:04:30,640 Speaker 2: that is really what we're talking about today, this kind 67 00:04:30,880 --> 00:04:36,680 Speaker 2: of individual who just seems to almost know how society operates, 68 00:04:36,800 --> 00:04:41,360 Speaker 2: to understand it, but not really know how to how 69 00:04:41,400 --> 00:04:43,599 Speaker 2: to cope, not even cope, not even know how to 70 00:04:43,680 --> 00:04:47,760 Speaker 2: act within that system, within a human system of empathy 71 00:04:47,880 --> 00:04:52,680 Speaker 2: and of kindness towards other people and of respect and 72 00:04:52,760 --> 00:04:57,479 Speaker 2: regard for other people's feelings. Now, there's another thing that 73 00:04:57,520 --> 00:05:01,560 Speaker 2: people often get confused with sociopaths or sociopathy, and that 74 00:05:01,720 --> 00:05:06,839 Speaker 2: is psychopaths or psychopathy. These two often get lumped together 75 00:05:07,360 --> 00:05:11,320 Speaker 2: all the time. They are not the same thing. Psychopaths. 76 00:05:11,720 --> 00:05:16,359 Speaker 2: That was the original og umbrella term that was used 77 00:05:16,360 --> 00:05:19,760 Speaker 2: to describe anyone with personality types that differed to the 78 00:05:19,800 --> 00:05:23,719 Speaker 2: perceived norms. But in the nineteen thirties and nineteen forties, 79 00:05:24,320 --> 00:05:29,320 Speaker 2: psychiatrists began to kind of notice that just calling anybody 80 00:05:29,320 --> 00:05:34,560 Speaker 2: who had a personality issue a psychopath was incredibly limiting 81 00:05:34,960 --> 00:05:37,240 Speaker 2: in terms of how they were going to diagnose these 82 00:05:37,240 --> 00:05:42,560 Speaker 2: individuals and the different expressions of traits that they all had. 83 00:05:43,160 --> 00:05:45,080 Speaker 2: And so that's when they really started to kind of 84 00:05:46,279 --> 00:05:50,800 Speaker 2: kind of like tear apart or kind of delineate the 85 00:05:50,880 --> 00:05:54,559 Speaker 2: different kind of conditions that fell under this umbrella term, 86 00:05:55,120 --> 00:05:59,840 Speaker 2: and sociopath back in that time was one of them. 87 00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:05,680 Speaker 2: Psychopath remained, but there was a difference. A sociopath is 88 00:06:05,760 --> 00:06:12,760 Speaker 2: someone who developed this kind of antisocial personality because of socialization, 89 00:06:13,040 --> 00:06:16,239 Speaker 2: So because of their upbringing, because of their environment, because 90 00:06:16,240 --> 00:06:18,520 Speaker 2: of their community. That is why they are the way 91 00:06:18,520 --> 00:06:22,760 Speaker 2: they are. Psychopaths the theory is they were just born 92 00:06:22,800 --> 00:06:28,800 Speaker 2: this way. They have this innate trait which makes them callous, 93 00:06:29,360 --> 00:06:35,960 Speaker 2: unaware of others feelings, or just deeply detached but also manipulative. 94 00:06:36,960 --> 00:06:43,000 Speaker 2: So historically, sociopathy is about external factors. Psychopathy is about 95 00:06:43,320 --> 00:06:48,479 Speaker 2: something that is hardwired deep inside of you, and over 96 00:06:48,560 --> 00:06:50,960 Speaker 2: time the lines kind of got blurred, and now we 97 00:06:51,040 --> 00:06:55,800 Speaker 2: have this ASPD diagnosis which typically covers them all. Now, 98 00:06:56,000 --> 00:06:58,960 Speaker 2: one other thing to know about the difference between sociopaths 99 00:06:58,960 --> 00:07:01,880 Speaker 2: and psychopaths is people are still using those terms around you. 100 00:07:02,520 --> 00:07:06,560 Speaker 2: Is that sociopaths actually can form attachments with other people. 101 00:07:07,279 --> 00:07:11,080 Speaker 2: They do love people. They do get married because they 102 00:07:11,160 --> 00:07:16,640 Speaker 2: care about people. Psychopaths, on the other hand, are deeply calculated. 103 00:07:17,520 --> 00:07:20,960 Speaker 2: They are more likely to be successful, they are actually 104 00:07:21,040 --> 00:07:24,440 Speaker 2: less likely to end up in prison, and they mask 105 00:07:24,640 --> 00:07:29,280 Speaker 2: their manipulative traits using human relationships. They will get married, 106 00:07:29,320 --> 00:07:32,480 Speaker 2: they may even have kids, but they rarely actually have 107 00:07:32,600 --> 00:07:37,200 Speaker 2: any kind of deeply empathetic and emotional bond with those individuals. 108 00:07:37,720 --> 00:07:41,600 Speaker 2: The other thing is, sociopaths are highly impulsive. Psychopaths are 109 00:07:41,760 --> 00:07:48,520 Speaker 2: highly highly rational, So that's really important to clarify psychopaths 110 00:07:48,560 --> 00:07:51,040 Speaker 2: as well. They will you will not find them in 111 00:07:51,080 --> 00:07:54,320 Speaker 2: the DSM either. It is still kind of a term 112 00:07:54,360 --> 00:07:59,440 Speaker 2: that is used, especially in forensic psychology and criminology, especially 113 00:07:59,480 --> 00:08:03,080 Speaker 2: for people who researching and trying to understand criminal behavior 114 00:08:03,160 --> 00:08:05,960 Speaker 2: and the causes and the patterns and the societal impact 115 00:08:06,000 --> 00:08:09,840 Speaker 2: of crimes. But as of right now, you could not 116 00:08:09,960 --> 00:08:13,240 Speaker 2: walk into a doctor's office and say and or exhibit 117 00:08:13,280 --> 00:08:18,160 Speaker 2: signs of sociopathy or psychopathy and get that as your label. 118 00:08:18,280 --> 00:08:25,080 Speaker 2: It's a lot more casual. So why are these words 119 00:08:25,120 --> 00:08:29,880 Speaker 2: still used, but also why are they so misused? Why 120 00:08:29,920 --> 00:08:34,160 Speaker 2: do we come across someone who maybe we don't like 121 00:08:34,880 --> 00:08:37,280 Speaker 2: he was maybe a little bit mean, maybe a little 122 00:08:37,320 --> 00:08:41,199 Speaker 2: bit manipulative, and just be like that person is a psychopath. 123 00:08:41,240 --> 00:08:44,880 Speaker 2: That person is a sociopath. A lot of it comes 124 00:08:44,920 --> 00:08:48,200 Speaker 2: down to this thing called language drift. This is when 125 00:08:48,200 --> 00:08:52,240 Speaker 2: a word starts in one context but kind of gets 126 00:08:52,360 --> 00:08:57,520 Speaker 2: stretched until the point where its meaning is completely different 127 00:08:57,600 --> 00:09:01,400 Speaker 2: from how it was originally used. Part of why the 128 00:09:01,480 --> 00:09:05,640 Speaker 2: term sociopath has experienced this language drift and has made 129 00:09:05,640 --> 00:09:10,480 Speaker 2: it into pop culture and our daily psychobabble is because 130 00:09:10,520 --> 00:09:13,320 Speaker 2: it really does describe the worst of the worst, and 131 00:09:13,400 --> 00:09:19,000 Speaker 2: it sounds really dramatic. It has weight, it has an edge. 132 00:09:19,520 --> 00:09:22,920 Speaker 2: Calling your ex a sociopath feels more powerful, maybe even 133 00:09:22,960 --> 00:09:26,720 Speaker 2: more validating, than just saying or describing them based on 134 00:09:26,760 --> 00:09:30,320 Speaker 2: their behaviors, you know, saying they were manipulative, they didn't 135 00:09:30,360 --> 00:09:33,280 Speaker 2: treat me with respect. When you then give that person 136 00:09:33,320 --> 00:09:38,160 Speaker 2: a label and say they were a sociopath, it feels 137 00:09:38,240 --> 00:09:41,959 Speaker 2: like you legitimize what you went through by giving their 138 00:09:42,000 --> 00:09:47,040 Speaker 2: pattern of behavior a more serious and recognizable, socially recognizable label. 139 00:09:47,280 --> 00:09:50,280 Speaker 2: That makes people really go likeugh and take a step back, 140 00:09:50,400 --> 00:09:53,920 Speaker 2: like a sociopath, well, that's scary, that's what serial killers are. 141 00:09:54,800 --> 00:09:57,160 Speaker 2: Pop culture has also poured a lot of fuel on 142 00:09:57,200 --> 00:10:01,560 Speaker 2: the fire. Think about a lot of TV shows like 143 00:10:02,160 --> 00:10:08,440 Speaker 2: Villain l In, Killing Eve, Joe Goldberg in You Like, 144 00:10:08,679 --> 00:10:11,800 Speaker 2: the entertainment industry is so good. They are profoundly good 145 00:10:11,800 --> 00:10:18,560 Speaker 2: at writing these really fascinating, dark, morally ambiguous characters and people, 146 00:10:19,200 --> 00:10:23,320 Speaker 2: and then the label of sociopath gets slapped onto them 147 00:10:23,760 --> 00:10:26,640 Speaker 2: to kind of add to like the mistake of the story. 148 00:10:27,320 --> 00:10:30,280 Speaker 2: But you know, their behaviors are heightened for entertainment, you know, 149 00:10:30,320 --> 00:10:34,439 Speaker 2: the stalking, the murder, the elaborate schemes. That's not always 150 00:10:34,600 --> 00:10:39,160 Speaker 2: going to occur in someone with ASPD or sociopathy, which 151 00:10:39,200 --> 00:10:43,319 Speaker 2: is you know, ASPD is a serious condition. And what 152 00:10:43,400 --> 00:10:46,560 Speaker 2: happens in these situations is that when we see these 153 00:10:46,600 --> 00:10:52,960 Speaker 2: extreme character depictions and we have this extreme language, it 154 00:10:53,120 --> 00:10:57,000 Speaker 2: often just becomes a shorthand for new ones. You know, 155 00:10:57,040 --> 00:10:58,880 Speaker 2: what we really are trying to say is that is 156 00:10:58,920 --> 00:11:02,200 Speaker 2: that person is dangerous. That person is toxic. You guys 157 00:11:02,240 --> 00:11:04,520 Speaker 2: know how I feel about that word. But that person 158 00:11:04,600 --> 00:11:08,000 Speaker 2: is toxic. That person may hurt you, may hurt me, 159 00:11:08,200 --> 00:11:11,560 Speaker 2: has hurt me. And because that complexity of that whole 160 00:11:11,559 --> 00:11:17,080 Speaker 2: situation is hard to sometimes get across, sociopath psychopath makes 161 00:11:17,120 --> 00:11:20,600 Speaker 2: it a lot easier. There's also something about the mystique 162 00:11:20,800 --> 00:11:24,679 Speaker 2: of sociopathy that just keeps people using it. Right, it 163 00:11:24,760 --> 00:11:30,320 Speaker 2: feels like this secret insight or explanation for somebody's behavior, 164 00:11:30,760 --> 00:11:34,160 Speaker 2: when otherwise we really wouldn't have words for who they 165 00:11:34,160 --> 00:11:36,240 Speaker 2: are and why they are the way they are. When 166 00:11:36,280 --> 00:11:38,679 Speaker 2: we just are able to label someone and package them 167 00:11:38,760 --> 00:11:42,000 Speaker 2: up as a sociopath, it feels like you've kind of 168 00:11:42,080 --> 00:11:44,360 Speaker 2: cracked the code of why they act the way they do, 169 00:11:44,800 --> 00:11:47,000 Speaker 2: and it does give a sense of closure. It's like 170 00:11:47,400 --> 00:11:51,160 Speaker 2: this is a neat box to put someone's messy behavior 171 00:11:51,240 --> 00:11:54,560 Speaker 2: into that allows me to just be like, okay, I 172 00:11:54,600 --> 00:11:57,439 Speaker 2: can that relationship is over, or I'm not going to 173 00:11:57,480 --> 00:12:01,160 Speaker 2: be around that person, or they are this all bad individual. 174 00:12:01,240 --> 00:12:03,760 Speaker 2: It makes it easier for you to not feel empathy 175 00:12:03,840 --> 00:12:06,640 Speaker 2: or sympathy for them. The thing is is that a 176 00:12:06,640 --> 00:12:08,920 Speaker 2: lot of people are actually not like that. A lot 177 00:12:08,920 --> 00:12:12,760 Speaker 2: of people have nuanced to their behavior. They act differently 178 00:12:12,800 --> 00:12:16,559 Speaker 2: in different contexts, not because they're a sociopath, just because 179 00:12:16,559 --> 00:12:20,600 Speaker 2: they're human. They have flaws, they make mistakes, and so 180 00:12:20,679 --> 00:12:22,760 Speaker 2: it's why I don't always like when we use this 181 00:12:22,840 --> 00:12:27,480 Speaker 2: extremist language to label something as this very intense thing 182 00:12:27,920 --> 00:12:31,200 Speaker 2: to claim they can never change and to kind of 183 00:12:31,200 --> 00:12:34,280 Speaker 2: not investigate why they may be the way they are 184 00:12:34,960 --> 00:12:38,480 Speaker 2: any further. And you may be saying, like, well, what's 185 00:12:38,480 --> 00:12:40,680 Speaker 2: wrong with that? If they're a bad person, why can't 186 00:12:40,720 --> 00:12:43,880 Speaker 2: I just call it as I see it. I get 187 00:12:43,880 --> 00:12:46,360 Speaker 2: where you're coming from there, And I understand that, I think, 188 00:12:46,400 --> 00:12:49,760 Speaker 2: because it loses meaningful when we actually really do need 189 00:12:49,800 --> 00:12:52,480 Speaker 2: these words and we do want to use them in 190 00:12:52,880 --> 00:13:00,560 Speaker 2: clinical settings or in settings where their magnitude needs to remain. Also, 191 00:13:01,080 --> 00:13:03,280 Speaker 2: just for the simple case of the fact that it 192 00:13:03,280 --> 00:13:06,320 Speaker 2: could do a lot of reputational damage not just to 193 00:13:06,400 --> 00:13:09,440 Speaker 2: that person but to you as well, is also something 194 00:13:09,480 --> 00:13:12,720 Speaker 2: to consider and is why we should maybe be a 195 00:13:12,760 --> 00:13:17,199 Speaker 2: little bit cautious with using these terms. But the final 196 00:13:17,360 --> 00:13:21,840 Speaker 2: argument is that the overuse of these terms really stigmatizes 197 00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:26,000 Speaker 2: people who actually do live with ASPD, who actually do 198 00:13:26,080 --> 00:13:30,800 Speaker 2: have antisocial personality disorder, kind of painting them as villains 199 00:13:30,880 --> 00:13:35,280 Speaker 2: when sometimes they are actually trying very hard to fix 200 00:13:35,360 --> 00:13:42,000 Speaker 2: their behavior and they also aren't necessarily always responsible for it. Now, 201 00:13:42,040 --> 00:13:44,920 Speaker 2: that is a hard thing to say. I do believe 202 00:13:44,920 --> 00:13:48,600 Speaker 2: that people are responsible for their behavior, but the way 203 00:13:48,679 --> 00:13:51,480 Speaker 2: they are, the way they are sometimes was not their 204 00:13:52,120 --> 00:13:58,120 Speaker 2: fault and is incredibly complex, and sometimes saying well that 205 00:13:58,160 --> 00:14:02,040 Speaker 2: person's a sociopath, they will always be a sociopath almost 206 00:14:02,080 --> 00:14:05,440 Speaker 2: guarantees that that will happen. That is a self fulfilling prophecy. 207 00:14:05,920 --> 00:14:09,240 Speaker 2: Whereas when we talk about it as antisocial traits, or 208 00:14:09,240 --> 00:14:13,199 Speaker 2: we talk about it as a personality disorder, a sickness, 209 00:14:13,520 --> 00:14:17,400 Speaker 2: an illness, a condition, rather than destiny, it actually does 210 00:14:17,440 --> 00:14:21,400 Speaker 2: give people the capacity to learn empathy the way that 211 00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:24,640 Speaker 2: you could learn as skill, and to kind of change 212 00:14:24,720 --> 00:14:30,640 Speaker 2: their behavior. This is something very interesting that I've only 213 00:14:30,720 --> 00:14:35,600 Speaker 2: really learned from researching this episode. People with antisocial personality 214 00:14:35,640 --> 00:14:39,960 Speaker 2: disorder do actually have treatment options, and although they are 215 00:14:40,040 --> 00:14:45,520 Speaker 2: highly represented in the prison system and in addiction statistics, 216 00:14:46,040 --> 00:14:49,240 Speaker 2: it doesn't mean that some of them don't actually learn 217 00:14:49,600 --> 00:14:54,400 Speaker 2: empathy and learn how to be kind to people. And 218 00:14:54,480 --> 00:14:56,520 Speaker 2: if you've never had to learn how to be kind 219 00:14:56,520 --> 00:14:59,080 Speaker 2: to people, you might think that's just like so unnatural 220 00:14:59,120 --> 00:15:01,520 Speaker 2: and weird. But for them, it's just like how they 221 00:15:01,560 --> 00:15:04,240 Speaker 2: were born and how they are and there's a lot 222 00:15:04,240 --> 00:15:06,920 Speaker 2: of credit to be given to them that they are 223 00:15:06,920 --> 00:15:09,480 Speaker 2: willing to do that, And I know it sounds so 224 00:15:09,480 --> 00:15:12,960 Speaker 2: strange I'm kind of it does sound like I'm justifying 225 00:15:13,400 --> 00:15:17,560 Speaker 2: sociopathy or antisocial traits, but I do have empathy for 226 00:15:17,600 --> 00:15:20,960 Speaker 2: these people that they don't have empathy, Like, it would 227 00:15:21,000 --> 00:15:23,760 Speaker 2: be very hard to make the right decisions if you 228 00:15:23,880 --> 00:15:27,120 Speaker 2: just had this part of your brain that just genuinely 229 00:15:27,160 --> 00:15:29,920 Speaker 2: didn't work, and it would be very hard to then 230 00:15:30,120 --> 00:15:32,440 Speaker 2: want that part of your brain to be switched on. 231 00:15:33,080 --> 00:15:36,240 Speaker 2: Sometimes I wish I didn't have empathy. I honestly, it 232 00:15:36,320 --> 00:15:38,400 Speaker 2: kind of sucks sometimes. I'm sure that if you're a 233 00:15:38,480 --> 00:15:41,480 Speaker 2: very sensitive or empathetic person, you will understand where I'm 234 00:15:41,480 --> 00:15:43,760 Speaker 2: coming from. Where it's like, you wish you didn't have 235 00:15:43,880 --> 00:15:47,920 Speaker 2: to care about everything and everyone and every tragedy that 236 00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:50,160 Speaker 2: was going on in the world. You wish you didn't 237 00:15:50,160 --> 00:15:53,160 Speaker 2: absorb other people's emotions, but you do, and that's a 238 00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:55,760 Speaker 2: gift and it would be very hard to take on 239 00:15:55,880 --> 00:15:59,080 Speaker 2: if you didn't already know how to do that or 240 00:15:59,520 --> 00:16:02,560 Speaker 2: weren't born that way. Okay, we're going to take a 241 00:16:02,680 --> 00:16:05,560 Speaker 2: short break, and then we're going to talk about how 242 00:16:05,600 --> 00:16:09,960 Speaker 2: this condition actually emerges, where it comes from, and what 243 00:16:10,040 --> 00:16:12,760 Speaker 2: some of those treatment options are that we spoke about before. 244 00:16:12,880 --> 00:16:15,440 Speaker 2: So super excited to get into it. Stay with us. 245 00:16:15,480 --> 00:16:23,280 Speaker 2: We'll be right back after this short break. Okay, we 246 00:16:23,320 --> 00:16:29,359 Speaker 2: are back talking about sociopaths, everybody's favorite topic. So sociopaths, 247 00:16:29,360 --> 00:16:32,880 Speaker 2: people with ASPD, they do walk among us. But what 248 00:16:33,240 --> 00:16:37,520 Speaker 2: makes them like this, because honestly, we actually didn't really 249 00:16:37,560 --> 00:16:41,280 Speaker 2: know until recently. So something we mentioned before is that 250 00:16:41,960 --> 00:16:45,200 Speaker 2: sociopaths ASPD. I know it keep going back and forth 251 00:16:45,240 --> 00:16:49,720 Speaker 2: between them, We'll just say sociopaths. Sociopaths. It's believed that 252 00:16:50,840 --> 00:16:55,120 Speaker 2: their lack of empathy is environmental and social, so it 253 00:16:55,240 --> 00:17:00,840 Speaker 2: was learnt or conditioned from early experiences. Also comes down 254 00:17:00,920 --> 00:17:07,600 Speaker 2: to emotional regulation. A pivotal moment for sociopathy or ASPD 255 00:17:07,720 --> 00:17:11,919 Speaker 2: research came in like the two thousands and the twenty tens, 256 00:17:12,040 --> 00:17:15,439 Speaker 2: where psychologists were really able to get down to the 257 00:17:15,640 --> 00:17:19,879 Speaker 2: mechanism that meant that these individuals could not control their 258 00:17:19,920 --> 00:17:23,919 Speaker 2: impulses even when they wanted to or even when it 259 00:17:24,200 --> 00:17:28,280 Speaker 2: was hurting people. And what they found was that studies, 260 00:17:28,600 --> 00:17:33,760 Speaker 2: neurological studies found that in the brains of people with sociopathy, 261 00:17:34,320 --> 00:17:38,080 Speaker 2: the regions that were involved in emotion and self control 262 00:17:38,880 --> 00:17:45,920 Speaker 2: had very very limited, very reduced activity. This was particularly 263 00:17:45,960 --> 00:17:51,200 Speaker 2: in the prefrontal cortext and the amygdala. The neural pathways 264 00:17:51,240 --> 00:17:57,719 Speaker 2: in those areas seemed basically unused and underdeveloped. These people 265 00:17:58,040 --> 00:18:01,880 Speaker 2: had not learnt at a pivot point how to use 266 00:18:01,920 --> 00:18:05,080 Speaker 2: these areas of their brain. Their brain maybe didn't need 267 00:18:05,119 --> 00:18:08,159 Speaker 2: them or shut them off for survival reasons or for 268 00:18:08,200 --> 00:18:11,199 Speaker 2: whatever it was. And so nowadays as an adult, they 269 00:18:11,240 --> 00:18:16,160 Speaker 2: are impulsive, they are reactive, they are prone to emotional outbursts. 270 00:18:16,640 --> 00:18:21,360 Speaker 2: They have that reduction in empathy twin and genetic studies 271 00:18:21,400 --> 00:18:24,840 Speaker 2: also provide some insight into why these patterns might emerge. 272 00:18:25,440 --> 00:18:30,680 Speaker 2: Researchers show that traits associated with sociopathy are influenced both 273 00:18:30,720 --> 00:18:35,359 Speaker 2: by genetics, but they are switched on by environment. So 274 00:18:35,440 --> 00:18:39,080 Speaker 2: what does that mean. That means that a lot of 275 00:18:39,080 --> 00:18:44,040 Speaker 2: people who go on to develop ASPD or sociopathy they 276 00:18:44,760 --> 00:18:48,840 Speaker 2: always were going to have a genetic predisposition. Basically, there 277 00:18:48,920 --> 00:18:53,600 Speaker 2: was a switch in their brain that started off that 278 00:18:54,080 --> 00:18:56,639 Speaker 2: was always going to be there, and then something in 279 00:18:56,680 --> 00:19:01,520 Speaker 2: the environment turned it on. Now, the thing is, there 280 00:19:01,560 --> 00:19:04,960 Speaker 2: are people for whom that gene will never be turned on. 281 00:19:05,800 --> 00:19:08,760 Speaker 2: They have a really great, happy life. They go through 282 00:19:09,040 --> 00:19:13,840 Speaker 2: childhood being very happy and being loved and so these 283 00:19:14,640 --> 00:19:21,000 Speaker 2: sociopathic traits never emerge, but it's when someone endured childhood trauma, neglect, 284 00:19:21,560 --> 00:19:28,679 Speaker 2: inconsistent parenting, bullying, that that basically it's switched on. So 285 00:19:28,760 --> 00:19:32,400 Speaker 2: someone's come along and gone, all right, time for this, 286 00:19:32,560 --> 00:19:36,920 Speaker 2: we're going to use this now. Many people believe that, yes, 287 00:19:37,080 --> 00:19:41,119 Speaker 2: people are born with this, but it really takes shape 288 00:19:41,160 --> 00:19:44,720 Speaker 2: and is influenced by your environment growing up. What you 289 00:19:44,800 --> 00:19:47,399 Speaker 2: might be thinking is, you know, why can't these people 290 00:19:47,480 --> 00:19:51,200 Speaker 2: just learn Because they've mentioned you know, people can learn empathy. 291 00:19:51,200 --> 00:19:55,879 Speaker 2: Why can't they just learn not to hurt people? Why 292 00:19:56,119 --> 00:20:00,119 Speaker 2: are there all these individuals in prison or dealing with 293 00:20:00,200 --> 00:20:05,040 Speaker 2: addiction that nobody caught soon enough and that didn't learn 294 00:20:05,080 --> 00:20:10,280 Speaker 2: from their mistakes, specifically with the legal system earlier. And 295 00:20:10,880 --> 00:20:13,959 Speaker 2: I also ask myself that question. The answer is that 296 00:20:14,119 --> 00:20:16,639 Speaker 2: a lot of research shows that people who have this 297 00:20:17,119 --> 00:20:20,480 Speaker 2: personality disorder they don't even know that they have it. 298 00:20:21,440 --> 00:20:24,080 Speaker 2: So this is the trick with a lot of personality 299 00:20:24,080 --> 00:20:30,320 Speaker 2: disorders that are like machiavellian or narcissistic or sociopathic. They 300 00:20:30,400 --> 00:20:33,280 Speaker 2: just don't see it. There's a part of their ego 301 00:20:33,320 --> 00:20:36,359 Speaker 2: that protects them from seeing this difference between them and 302 00:20:36,400 --> 00:20:40,000 Speaker 2: other people. Or seeing that difference as being important. They 303 00:20:40,080 --> 00:20:43,640 Speaker 2: might notice patterns. They might know that they constantly get 304 00:20:43,640 --> 00:20:46,840 Speaker 2: into fights, that they struggle to maintain a job or 305 00:20:46,840 --> 00:20:50,479 Speaker 2: a relationship, or that they're making impulsive choices, but they 306 00:20:50,480 --> 00:20:54,760 Speaker 2: don't necessarily connect those behaviors to a personality disorder. A 307 00:20:54,760 --> 00:20:57,639 Speaker 2: lot of the time they may blame other people for that. 308 00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:01,560 Speaker 2: Studies have showed that the really linked to differences as 309 00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:05,760 Speaker 2: well in self reflection and emotional insight, and a lot 310 00:21:05,760 --> 00:21:09,960 Speaker 2: of people who have sociopathy or ASPD they actually can't 311 00:21:09,960 --> 00:21:14,640 Speaker 2: do this thing we called mentalizing, basically understanding your own 312 00:21:14,640 --> 00:21:20,120 Speaker 2: emotions through how your emotions affect others. It's also called metacognition, 313 00:21:20,200 --> 00:21:24,199 Speaker 2: being able to think about your thinking. This ability seems 314 00:21:24,240 --> 00:21:28,399 Speaker 2: to be a lot lower for certain individuals. On the 315 00:21:28,400 --> 00:21:32,680 Speaker 2: flip side, though some people are remarkably aware of their traits. 316 00:21:33,280 --> 00:21:36,800 Speaker 2: Take M. E. Thomas. This is a self identified sociopath. 317 00:21:36,960 --> 00:21:40,720 Speaker 2: She wrote, They wrote Confessions of a Sociopath. I've read 318 00:21:40,760 --> 00:21:44,520 Speaker 2: that book. It's amazing, and they talk about noticing early 319 00:21:44,640 --> 00:21:49,879 Speaker 2: on that they had tendencies toward manipulation. They were emotionally detached, 320 00:21:49,920 --> 00:21:54,120 Speaker 2: they could charm like adults in their life and feel nothing. 321 00:21:54,960 --> 00:21:57,480 Speaker 2: There was all this. It's quite sad to say, but 322 00:21:57,560 --> 00:22:02,359 Speaker 2: these instances of animal abuse, and she realized they realized, like, 323 00:22:02,520 --> 00:22:06,680 Speaker 2: there's something wrong with me. People are reacting to this poorly, 324 00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:09,919 Speaker 2: and she was able to learn how to navigate the 325 00:22:09,960 --> 00:22:15,600 Speaker 2: world by assessing how she could get ahead through people's 326 00:22:15,680 --> 00:22:20,840 Speaker 2: positive and negative appraisals of her actions. This is what 327 00:22:20,880 --> 00:22:25,720 Speaker 2: psychologists call masking, consciously adapting your behavior to fit social 328 00:22:25,760 --> 00:22:31,520 Speaker 2: expectations whilst keeping seemingly more divergent traits under wraps. So 329 00:22:31,760 --> 00:22:36,159 Speaker 2: awareness can exist on a spectrum. Some individuals are genuinely 330 00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:41,000 Speaker 2: oblivious to this being them problem. Others are hyper aware 331 00:22:41,320 --> 00:22:46,359 Speaker 2: and hyper strategic. There's actually some debate in psychology about 332 00:22:46,400 --> 00:22:51,240 Speaker 2: whether certain antisocial traits, like having low empathy or having fearlessness, 333 00:22:51,840 --> 00:22:55,840 Speaker 2: can actually be an advantage in specific context, which is 334 00:22:55,840 --> 00:22:59,280 Speaker 2: why some people don't outlearn them. For example, in high 335 00:22:59,280 --> 00:23:03,080 Speaker 2: stakes professions like if you're a surgeon, if you're in 336 00:23:03,160 --> 00:23:07,800 Speaker 2: business negotiations, if you're in the military, being less emotionally 337 00:23:07,840 --> 00:23:12,280 Speaker 2: reactive can sometimes be an asset, though of course that 338 00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:16,399 Speaker 2: is very controversial to say. Obviously, you would want someone 339 00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:19,480 Speaker 2: performing open heart surgery to care whether their patient lived 340 00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:24,880 Speaker 2: or died, but maybe you wouldn't because then they could 341 00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:30,879 Speaker 2: make the more justified and right decisions without the emotions 342 00:23:30,880 --> 00:23:32,760 Speaker 2: of oh my god, is this person going to be? 343 00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:33,119 Speaker 1: Okay? 344 00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:35,320 Speaker 2: Am I going to kill this person? What are their 345 00:23:35,440 --> 00:23:39,920 Speaker 2: chances of survival? Like if someone thinks purely in the 346 00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:45,320 Speaker 2: math or the likelihood or the rationality of the circumstances, 347 00:23:45,359 --> 00:23:48,119 Speaker 2: maybe it would make them better in this environment. That 348 00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:50,119 Speaker 2: is a debate we literally do not have time to 349 00:23:50,119 --> 00:23:51,840 Speaker 2: get into. In fact, I don't even think I have 350 00:23:52,280 --> 00:23:54,879 Speaker 2: wouldn't even know how to get into that debate because 351 00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:58,920 Speaker 2: it's so back and forth and so complex, But it 352 00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:01,640 Speaker 2: is definitely something to think about. So we've been kind 353 00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:04,440 Speaker 2: of circling around this idea for a while throughout this episode, 354 00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:09,760 Speaker 2: which is that there is treatment for sociopathy. Obviously there 355 00:24:09,800 --> 00:24:13,280 Speaker 2: is not a cure, but there are ways to help 356 00:24:13,320 --> 00:24:18,520 Speaker 2: people manage socially, to reduce impulsivity, to improve relationships, and 357 00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:24,280 Speaker 2: some people can function completely normal as you and I would. 358 00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:29,760 Speaker 2: These include talk therapy, mentalization based therapy, so of course, 359 00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:34,080 Speaker 2: helping people understand their own mindsets and then project their 360 00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:37,560 Speaker 2: mindsets onto other people, which is like a proxy or 361 00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:41,920 Speaker 2: like a B grade version of empathy. There's also cognitive 362 00:24:41,920 --> 00:24:46,359 Speaker 2: behavioral therapy, which I think is literally used for every 363 00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:50,520 Speaker 2: mental personality condition under the sun, but the therapy is 364 00:24:51,560 --> 00:24:58,760 Speaker 2: never often just one thing, and it's incredibly specific to 365 00:24:58,880 --> 00:25:02,240 Speaker 2: the individual people. People won't even treat people with this 366 00:25:02,359 --> 00:25:05,040 Speaker 2: disorder because they are of the camp that it's not 367 00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:09,439 Speaker 2: possible to think. I think it is. I think that 368 00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:12,560 Speaker 2: if this is the best thing that we have, you 369 00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:15,840 Speaker 2: may as well give this person the best thing, not 370 00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:17,879 Speaker 2: just for them, but because like all the people that 371 00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:21,080 Speaker 2: are going to come across them throughout their life, if 372 00:25:21,119 --> 00:25:24,320 Speaker 2: you could teach someone even five percent of the natural 373 00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:27,560 Speaker 2: empathy that a normal person would have, that is going 374 00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:31,280 Speaker 2: to make everyone's odds of being hurt, being harmed, feeling bad, 375 00:25:31,359 --> 00:25:36,120 Speaker 2: feeling terrible a lot less. But again, it is very, 376 00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:38,760 Speaker 2: very controversial as to whether this is an option. You 377 00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:41,399 Speaker 2: can't just put every single person who has these traits 378 00:25:41,440 --> 00:25:45,399 Speaker 2: in prison and expect society to get better, especially since 379 00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:47,720 Speaker 2: they will get out of prison and they will learn, 380 00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:50,720 Speaker 2: and they will mask and they will feel even more 381 00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:54,879 Speaker 2: isolated and willing to harm other people. There are so 382 00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:57,800 Speaker 2: many nuances to this that has gone back hundreds and 383 00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:00,000 Speaker 2: hundreds of years of how do we deal with people 384 00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:04,160 Speaker 2: who just seem to not care about others or seem 385 00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:08,159 Speaker 2: to have this impulsivity towards hurting people. That being said, 386 00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:11,240 Speaker 2: what do you do if you think that a friend 387 00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:15,080 Speaker 2: of yours, a family member of yours, a partner of 388 00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:22,000 Speaker 2: yours does have antisocial personality disorder is a sociopath? I 389 00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:29,080 Speaker 2: think first things first, don't panic and try not to 390 00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:33,320 Speaker 2: diagnose too quickly. Try and see them as a combination 391 00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:37,320 Speaker 2: of traits rather than grouping them under this label for 392 00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:40,880 Speaker 2: as long as you probably possibly can, because I think 393 00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:43,600 Speaker 2: it will again stop you from panicking and stop you 394 00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:47,240 Speaker 2: from freaking out and maybe actually give them the space 395 00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:52,200 Speaker 2: to prove you wrong. Also, it's incredibly emotionally charged. You 396 00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:53,920 Speaker 2: can do a lot of reputational damage, can do a 397 00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:56,520 Speaker 2: lot of harm to the relationship. If you just say 398 00:26:56,720 --> 00:26:59,399 Speaker 2: you're a manipulative you're a sociopath, I don't want anything 399 00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:01,800 Speaker 2: to do with you. But if you genuinely do believe 400 00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:06,800 Speaker 2: they are, pay attention to the isolated incidents and keep 401 00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:10,440 Speaker 2: track of them. You know, one off selfish or manipultive behaviors. 402 00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:14,399 Speaker 2: It happens in everyone, but if it's persistent over time, 403 00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:18,480 Speaker 2: if it's repeated, deceit, a lack of empathy, impulsive or 404 00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:24,800 Speaker 2: reckless behaviors are consistent disregard for others feelings. That's really concerning, 405 00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:28,840 Speaker 2: and you don't actually have to continue a relationship with 406 00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:32,240 Speaker 2: this person. If this is who they are, obviously I 407 00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:34,760 Speaker 2: believe they can learn, they can change. It does depend 408 00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:36,840 Speaker 2: on who the person is. If this is your parent 409 00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:40,639 Speaker 2: and they're in their sixties, maybe that ship has sailed 410 00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:42,879 Speaker 2: for them, and the best thing you can do is 411 00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:45,879 Speaker 2: just accept that this is who they are. They have 412 00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:48,119 Speaker 2: no control over this. Now it's up to you to 413 00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:51,640 Speaker 2: decide whether you want to be in that person's life 414 00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:54,399 Speaker 2: or not. I think if you feel comfortable doing so, 415 00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:59,080 Speaker 2: asking the person, like being curious about what it feels 416 00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:02,440 Speaker 2: like for them, might also just help you and help 417 00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:06,280 Speaker 2: you make a decision and help the relationship. Questions like 418 00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:08,199 Speaker 2: you know, what does it feel like when that like 419 00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:11,080 Speaker 2: big emotion comes up? Or why did you do that 420 00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:13,080 Speaker 2: to that person? What were you hoping to get out 421 00:28:13,119 --> 00:28:16,719 Speaker 2: of that? What does feel like when you're embarrassed? What 422 00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:20,200 Speaker 2: does it feel like when you're angry? If anything else, 423 00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:25,239 Speaker 2: it's just very fascinating to understand their psychology. More, we 424 00:28:25,320 --> 00:28:28,720 Speaker 2: know that sociopaths often don't connect to these social emotions 425 00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:32,720 Speaker 2: in the same way, So maybe that will help you 426 00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:37,720 Speaker 2: see them more clearly for who they are, without expecting 427 00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:40,160 Speaker 2: things from them that they're not capable of, and you'll 428 00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:43,320 Speaker 2: be able to make a more clear cut decision for 429 00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:48,040 Speaker 2: yourself with that information. Knowing that they may never learn 430 00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:51,040 Speaker 2: these emotions, may never connect with you the way that 431 00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:54,920 Speaker 2: you want them to because they are not able to. 432 00:28:55,840 --> 00:28:59,000 Speaker 2: Please seek some support, seek some guidance. For more clarity 433 00:28:59,040 --> 00:29:02,440 Speaker 2: on this, talk to a mental health professional who can 434 00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:09,080 Speaker 2: help you navigate the situation. Set immediate boundaries with immediate consequences, 435 00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:11,920 Speaker 2: because that is like a very sure fire away for 436 00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:16,080 Speaker 2: someone to learn what is and is not acceptable in 437 00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:19,440 Speaker 2: their relationship with you. Rather than betting on them having 438 00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:22,720 Speaker 2: the empathy to be able to tell they just might not, 439 00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:25,800 Speaker 2: you have to speak it to them like a child. 440 00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:29,160 Speaker 2: And sometimes it is just best to walk away like 441 00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:34,920 Speaker 2: you're allowed to just be completely team you and completely 442 00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:36,920 Speaker 2: like I just don't want anything to do with this, 443 00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:40,840 Speaker 2: and yeah, that's actually okay. You're an adult. You know 444 00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:43,640 Speaker 2: what's best for you and your emotional landscape. If this 445 00:29:43,720 --> 00:29:47,040 Speaker 2: is the best decision, you should do it. Anyways, I 446 00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:48,680 Speaker 2: think that's all we have time for today. I know 447 00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:52,680 Speaker 2: I said a mini episode. We're at thirty minutes. I'm 448 00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:56,000 Speaker 2: so sorry, but this topic is just so endlessly fascinating. 449 00:29:56,040 --> 00:29:58,080 Speaker 2: I wish that I could talk about it more. But 450 00:29:58,120 --> 00:30:01,280 Speaker 2: I will leave some resources in the descript including some 451 00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:03,480 Speaker 2: of the books that I've read about this, some of 452 00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:06,200 Speaker 2: the YouTube videos that I've watched that are just incredibly 453 00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:12,080 Speaker 2: fascinating interviews with people who have sociopathic or psychopathic traits. 454 00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:16,680 Speaker 2: It's just wild to hear how differently their brains operate. 455 00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:20,000 Speaker 2: But until next time, make sure you're following us on Instagram, 456 00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:22,800 Speaker 2: make sure that you are following along or subscribed, whether 457 00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:26,720 Speaker 2: you are listening on Spotify, Apple, iHeart YouTube. Be safe, 458 00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:30,120 Speaker 2: be kind, be gentle to yourself. We will talk very 459 00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:30,640 Speaker 2: very soon.