1 00:00:03,080 --> 00:00:05,960 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind from how Stuff 2 00:00:05,960 --> 00:00:13,440 Speaker 1: Works dot com. Hey, you wasn't a stuff to blow 3 00:00:13,480 --> 00:00:17,040 Speaker 1: your mind. My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Julie Douglas. Julie, 4 00:00:17,079 --> 00:00:19,160 Speaker 1: what are you doing? You're closing your eyes and you're 5 00:00:19,239 --> 00:00:22,160 Speaker 1: you're touching your nose. I'm touching my nose. I am 6 00:00:22,200 --> 00:00:25,640 Speaker 1: being a pro pre exception champ right now, oh, pro 7 00:00:25,800 --> 00:00:30,080 Speaker 1: pre exception. Yeah. The subject of today's episode, and this 8 00:00:30,120 --> 00:00:33,080 Speaker 1: really gets down to what may seem at first like 9 00:00:33,120 --> 00:00:38,400 Speaker 1: a very basic concept, right, where is our body? Where 10 00:00:38,440 --> 00:00:41,760 Speaker 1: are we? Where are we in terms of time and space? 11 00:00:41,920 --> 00:00:44,879 Speaker 1: Where our arms? Just sort of basic stuff that we 12 00:00:44,960 --> 00:00:48,360 Speaker 1: take for granted on a near constant basis. Yeah, this 13 00:00:48,520 --> 00:00:51,080 Speaker 1: at first glance seems kind of like a stoner question. 14 00:00:51,400 --> 00:00:54,400 Speaker 1: Where is my body? It's right here? Um, but you're 15 00:00:54,480 --> 00:00:56,120 Speaker 1: right if you look at a little bit closer. It's 16 00:00:56,160 --> 00:01:00,160 Speaker 1: amazing that we can locate ourselves in our body. That 17 00:01:00,240 --> 00:01:03,440 Speaker 1: we have this meta sense that combines our brains knowledge 18 00:01:03,520 --> 00:01:06,399 Speaker 1: of what our muscles are doing with a feel for 19 00:01:06,440 --> 00:01:08,759 Speaker 1: the size and the shape of your body. Because as 20 00:01:08,760 --> 00:01:11,480 Speaker 1: we know, um, the way that we take in data 21 00:01:11,600 --> 00:01:15,360 Speaker 1: and we parse it in our brains is not always. Um, 22 00:01:15,520 --> 00:01:19,760 Speaker 1: so straightforward, it's not always actually correct. So of course 23 00:01:19,760 --> 00:01:21,840 Speaker 1: we're going to talk about some weird things happening with 24 00:01:21,840 --> 00:01:25,040 Speaker 1: appropriate exception. Just to go back to the what you 25 00:01:25,080 --> 00:01:26,840 Speaker 1: were doing earlier with your nose though, I'm going to 26 00:01:26,920 --> 00:01:29,560 Speaker 1: try it myself, and I encourage listeners who are not 27 00:01:29,600 --> 00:01:32,480 Speaker 1: trying Okay, let's see or otherwise engaged to do this 28 00:01:32,520 --> 00:01:34,680 Speaker 1: as well. Closing my eyes and then my hand is 29 00:01:34,720 --> 00:01:36,160 Speaker 1: out to the side, and then I'm going to reach 30 00:01:36,200 --> 00:01:39,759 Speaker 1: in with my finger and I'm going to attempt to 31 00:01:39,760 --> 00:01:43,600 Speaker 1: touch the bridge of my nose. And I got it here. 32 00:01:43,959 --> 00:01:46,520 Speaker 1: Oh I can't there's a headphone over it. But but 33 00:01:46,600 --> 00:01:48,680 Speaker 1: I would have had the headphone not I was kidding. 34 00:01:48,720 --> 00:01:52,800 Speaker 1: You actually did get the bridge of your nose. Yeah, okay, good, good, good. 35 00:01:53,240 --> 00:01:55,360 Speaker 1: So what was that of that all about? How did 36 00:01:55,360 --> 00:01:58,120 Speaker 1: I find my nose? Right? Because I couldn't see where 37 00:01:58,160 --> 00:02:02,040 Speaker 1: my nose was. I couldn't here where my You could 38 00:02:02,160 --> 00:02:05,320 Speaker 1: use echolocation like a bat to determine where my my 39 00:02:05,400 --> 00:02:08,560 Speaker 1: hand was and then guided in towards my nose. Um, 40 00:02:08,600 --> 00:02:11,680 Speaker 1: I couldn't smell where my finger was and then negotiate 41 00:02:11,760 --> 00:02:13,760 Speaker 1: it into place. Yeah, I was about to say this 42 00:02:13,840 --> 00:02:16,160 Speaker 1: is not one of those here's one of your five senses. 43 00:02:16,240 --> 00:02:18,880 Speaker 1: Because we've talked about that, there were pretty limiting to 44 00:02:18,960 --> 00:02:21,520 Speaker 1: say we have five senses. There's obviously stuff going on 45 00:02:21,560 --> 00:02:24,160 Speaker 1: beyond that. And if you've ever hovered your hand over 46 00:02:24,280 --> 00:02:27,200 Speaker 1: a hot iron, you know that automatically, right. You didn't 47 00:02:27,240 --> 00:02:30,560 Speaker 1: get that sense of heat from licking that hot iron, 48 00:02:30,919 --> 00:02:34,560 Speaker 1: from smelling it, from tasting it, from touching it, um 49 00:02:34,560 --> 00:02:37,160 Speaker 1: from seeing it. There was another thing going on with 50 00:02:37,240 --> 00:02:39,400 Speaker 1: the nerves and your fingers that were saying, hey, here's 51 00:02:39,440 --> 00:02:43,280 Speaker 1: some data about that object. So that's what this meta 52 00:02:43,280 --> 00:02:45,440 Speaker 1: sense appropriate reception is. But you can't get into the 53 00:02:45,480 --> 00:02:48,360 Speaker 1: meat of it until you kind of talk more about 54 00:02:48,480 --> 00:02:52,440 Speaker 1: the nuts and bolts of what's happening inside of your 55 00:02:52,480 --> 00:02:55,280 Speaker 1: body and how that connects your mind and body. Yes, 56 00:02:55,280 --> 00:03:00,280 Speaker 1: we're talking about American philosopher and psychologist William James two 57 00:03:00,280 --> 00:03:04,440 Speaker 1: through nineteen ten. Very important thinker, a lot of ideas 58 00:03:04,440 --> 00:03:07,160 Speaker 1: that were especially in this case controversial at the time 59 00:03:07,760 --> 00:03:11,079 Speaker 1: and really ahead of of of his time in terms 60 00:03:11,120 --> 00:03:14,240 Speaker 1: of the way he was thinking about our experience of 61 00:03:14,280 --> 00:03:17,120 Speaker 1: reality and how our our brain engages and all of that, 62 00:03:17,400 --> 00:03:22,000 Speaker 1: and he came up with a thought experiment involving a bear. Yes, 63 00:03:22,080 --> 00:03:24,280 Speaker 1: now this was covered in a Radio Lab episode, but 64 00:03:24,320 --> 00:03:25,840 Speaker 1: we wanted to bring it up because it is so 65 00:03:26,160 --> 00:03:30,360 Speaker 1: central to our conversation today. This thought experiment was imagine 66 00:03:30,400 --> 00:03:33,080 Speaker 1: you're walking through the woods and a bear attacks, Okay, 67 00:03:33,360 --> 00:03:35,520 Speaker 1: or just shows up. Really, that's that's enough for me. 68 00:03:35,840 --> 00:03:39,280 Speaker 1: That shows up. And he's wondering that feeling, that emotion, 69 00:03:39,440 --> 00:03:43,080 Speaker 1: that fear, what is that feeling made up of? Where 70 00:03:43,160 --> 00:03:47,040 Speaker 1: is it really coming from? And so what he gets 71 00:03:47,120 --> 00:03:50,960 Speaker 1: into is this idea that it's your body kicking off 72 00:03:51,040 --> 00:03:53,200 Speaker 1: the sense of fear. In other words, it's not your 73 00:03:53,240 --> 00:03:56,920 Speaker 1: emotions that you feel at first, it's your body having 74 00:03:56,920 --> 00:04:00,280 Speaker 1: the response. It reacts to the stimuli first, and then 75 00:04:00,280 --> 00:04:03,440 Speaker 1: the chain reaction informs your body of how to feel 76 00:04:03,760 --> 00:04:07,240 Speaker 1: emotionally or your brain how to feel. So this was 77 00:04:07,280 --> 00:04:10,040 Speaker 1: tested out by the idea that people who are paralyzed 78 00:04:10,080 --> 00:04:13,600 Speaker 1: from the neck down wouldn't exhibit fear. This is what 79 00:04:13,720 --> 00:04:17,360 Speaker 1: he thought, right, because he's again arguing that your body 80 00:04:17,960 --> 00:04:21,719 Speaker 1: is essentially feeling what's happening and feeling the fear and 81 00:04:21,720 --> 00:04:24,400 Speaker 1: then informing your brain on how to think. And so 82 00:04:24,520 --> 00:04:27,080 Speaker 1: if therefore, if the if the body were cut off 83 00:04:27,080 --> 00:04:30,840 Speaker 1: from sensation, then it wouldn't the brain would not have 84 00:04:30,880 --> 00:04:32,880 Speaker 1: a body to tell it to be afraid of the bear, 85 00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:36,320 Speaker 1: right exactly. And so he thought thought, okay, well, if 86 00:04:36,320 --> 00:04:38,720 Speaker 1: you're paralyzed in the neck down, then this should bear 87 00:04:38,760 --> 00:04:42,280 Speaker 1: out right. But he finds out that this is not 88 00:04:42,520 --> 00:04:44,880 Speaker 1: just as cut and dried as he had hoped. This 89 00:04:45,040 --> 00:04:47,560 Speaker 1: is not, in fact happened. People who are paralyzed the 90 00:04:47,560 --> 00:04:50,599 Speaker 1: neck down still experience fear and and could still be 91 00:04:50,640 --> 00:04:54,520 Speaker 1: eaten by a bear from just a very physical, literal sense. Yes, 92 00:04:55,200 --> 00:05:00,839 Speaker 1: not exactly. Yeah, However, some such three years so later, 93 00:05:01,400 --> 00:05:04,839 Speaker 1: neurologist Antonio Dimazzio, the director of the Brain and Creativity 94 00:05:04,839 --> 00:05:09,000 Speaker 1: Institute at the University of Southern California, who is a 95 00:05:09,000 --> 00:05:12,680 Speaker 1: paraplegic psychologist, I thought there might be something to this 96 00:05:13,080 --> 00:05:18,280 Speaker 1: because he said that his emotions weren't as strong since 97 00:05:18,600 --> 00:05:22,880 Speaker 1: um becoming paralyzed. And so he conducted studies of able 98 00:05:22,880 --> 00:05:25,720 Speaker 1: bodied people who became paralyzed and found that they reported 99 00:05:25,720 --> 00:05:30,400 Speaker 1: this same sense of lessening and feelings feeling less sad 100 00:05:30,560 --> 00:05:33,479 Speaker 1: or less happy. As we bring this up because once 101 00:05:33,480 --> 00:05:37,640 Speaker 1: again we see, as Dimazio says, our being is rooted 102 00:05:37,800 --> 00:05:41,120 Speaker 1: in a body state. Yeah, it comes back again and 103 00:05:41,160 --> 00:05:44,080 Speaker 1: again our podcast to that that idea we rolled out 104 00:05:44,120 --> 00:05:47,080 Speaker 1: of the man on a horse versus the centaur. Right, 105 00:05:47,440 --> 00:05:49,600 Speaker 1: there's the the old notion that our brain is this 106 00:05:49,880 --> 00:05:53,440 Speaker 1: rider on a horse and the body just obeys the mind, 107 00:05:53,480 --> 00:05:55,200 Speaker 1: and that's all there is to it. But the more 108 00:05:55,240 --> 00:05:57,440 Speaker 1: we understand about how our brain works and how our 109 00:05:57,480 --> 00:05:59,800 Speaker 1: body works, we see that it's more of a center 110 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:03,120 Speaker 1: model where the rider and horse are one. You can't 111 00:06:03,400 --> 00:06:06,360 Speaker 1: you can't take the brain apart from the body without 112 00:06:06,400 --> 00:06:08,840 Speaker 1: losing a part of the overall self. Yeah. I was 113 00:06:08,880 --> 00:06:11,400 Speaker 1: thinking about this morning when I was driving in I thought, 114 00:06:11,440 --> 00:06:13,039 Speaker 1: when was the last time I felt like I was 115 00:06:13,120 --> 00:06:16,680 Speaker 1: just punched in the gut from information I was taking in? 116 00:06:17,360 --> 00:06:19,839 Speaker 1: And actually wasn't that long though, And uh, I thought, 117 00:06:19,880 --> 00:06:22,799 Speaker 1: you know what that was exactly it? I felt that 118 00:06:23,440 --> 00:06:28,520 Speaker 1: physical in my stomach and then I had a cascade 119 00:06:28,600 --> 00:06:32,520 Speaker 1: of emotions that followed it. Yeah. I think they brought 120 00:06:32,600 --> 00:06:36,160 Speaker 1: this up in the Radio Lab episode. Well, they were 121 00:06:36,160 --> 00:06:39,160 Speaker 1: talking about our own memories of feeling fear. But it 122 00:06:39,200 --> 00:06:41,840 Speaker 1: made me think about reading stories in which someone encounters 123 00:06:41,839 --> 00:06:45,040 Speaker 1: something fearful, which which I frequently find that because I 124 00:06:45,080 --> 00:06:48,080 Speaker 1: read a lot of horror and suspense. But but when 125 00:06:48,080 --> 00:06:50,520 Speaker 1: you when you read these stories, it's never something like 126 00:06:50,880 --> 00:06:54,799 Speaker 1: and then Randolph encountered a ghost and had the idea 127 00:06:54,839 --> 00:06:56,760 Speaker 1: in his head that he should feel afraid. No, it's 128 00:06:56,800 --> 00:07:01,480 Speaker 1: always the author always describes a visceral reaction to something horrifying. 129 00:07:01,839 --> 00:07:06,480 Speaker 1: You know, hearts are leaping, skin is crawling, um bowels 130 00:07:06,560 --> 00:07:11,480 Speaker 1: or maybe avoiding. But but but that stuff comes immediately before, 131 00:07:11,600 --> 00:07:16,840 Speaker 1: sometimes separated by seconds, minutes, days, hours, whatever, before they 132 00:07:16,880 --> 00:07:21,000 Speaker 1: actually are able to assemble what's happening in their mind. Yeah, 133 00:07:21,040 --> 00:07:24,160 Speaker 1: that's why that that cliche of being punched in the 134 00:07:24,160 --> 00:07:27,040 Speaker 1: gut is so true, because we have an innate sense 135 00:07:27,040 --> 00:07:31,440 Speaker 1: of this pre pre reception working on our emotions. Right. Um, 136 00:07:31,520 --> 00:07:35,920 Speaker 1: so again, let's talk about approprioception. What is it? It 137 00:07:36,040 --> 00:07:41,160 Speaker 1: is actually stimuli relating to position, posture, equilibrium, or our 138 00:07:41,280 --> 00:07:46,120 Speaker 1: internal conditions. Um. It is the sense or rather senses 139 00:07:46,200 --> 00:07:49,320 Speaker 1: of position and movement of our limbs and trunk, the 140 00:07:49,440 --> 00:07:52,400 Speaker 1: sense of effort and the sense of force and the 141 00:07:52,480 --> 00:07:55,880 Speaker 1: sense of heaviness, and all of this information coming together 142 00:07:55,920 --> 00:08:00,320 Speaker 1: in the brain to form a picture of who we are, well, 143 00:08:00,360 --> 00:08:02,640 Speaker 1: not well, not as much who we are in this scenario, 144 00:08:03,080 --> 00:08:05,400 Speaker 1: but what we are, what are parts are composed of, 145 00:08:05,400 --> 00:08:08,120 Speaker 1: what those parts are doing, and where we physically are. 146 00:08:08,360 --> 00:08:11,160 Speaker 1: And it's interesting because if you, if you just take 147 00:08:11,160 --> 00:08:13,720 Speaker 1: any given moment, we tend to fall back on a 148 00:08:13,840 --> 00:08:17,520 Speaker 1: visual understanding. If you, if you ask yourself the question, well, 149 00:08:17,560 --> 00:08:20,040 Speaker 1: what's my body doing and where am I? We think, oh, well, 150 00:08:20,200 --> 00:08:22,920 Speaker 1: this is me because I see me and I see 151 00:08:22,960 --> 00:08:25,040 Speaker 1: my surroundings, so I know where I am. We tend 152 00:08:25,120 --> 00:08:27,920 Speaker 1: to think just visually about it. But it's far more 153 00:08:27,960 --> 00:08:31,200 Speaker 1: complicated than that. Yeah, and that comes down to body schema, 154 00:08:31,440 --> 00:08:35,040 Speaker 1: in this sense of body ownership. So you in body schema, 155 00:08:35,120 --> 00:08:37,360 Speaker 1: you have this model of where your mind thinks your 156 00:08:37,400 --> 00:08:40,160 Speaker 1: body is in time and space. And in the paper 157 00:08:40,480 --> 00:08:45,600 Speaker 1: and an implicit body representation underlying human position sense, authors 158 00:08:45,760 --> 00:08:49,360 Speaker 1: long Goo and Haggard say that human position sense must 159 00:08:49,360 --> 00:08:54,480 Speaker 1: refer to a stored body model, and this model has 160 00:08:54,520 --> 00:08:58,319 Speaker 1: the body's metric properties like body parts, size and shape. 161 00:08:58,720 --> 00:09:01,640 Speaker 1: And in their study they found that without cues from 162 00:09:01,640 --> 00:09:04,120 Speaker 1: a person's environment or their own muscle movements, and we'll 163 00:09:04,120 --> 00:09:07,760 Speaker 1: talk more about that, that a person's implicit mental map 164 00:09:07,760 --> 00:09:10,280 Speaker 1: to say, their hand when they tried to recreate it 165 00:09:10,360 --> 00:09:14,160 Speaker 1: for the researchers was greatly distorted, and it bears out 166 00:09:14,200 --> 00:09:17,080 Speaker 1: this idea that you can't have just the mental map 167 00:09:17,160 --> 00:09:20,520 Speaker 1: alone of the body schema to to really know where 168 00:09:20,520 --> 00:09:22,840 Speaker 1: you are in time and space, you have to have 169 00:09:22,920 --> 00:09:26,920 Speaker 1: other clues. Yeah, it made me instantly think of Game 170 00:09:26,960 --> 00:09:29,760 Speaker 1: of Thrones for some reason. Um, have you watched any 171 00:09:29,800 --> 00:09:32,120 Speaker 1: of the show? Well, you know there are a lot 172 00:09:32,160 --> 00:09:36,760 Speaker 1: of scenes, inevitably, especially when things get a little more warlike, 173 00:09:37,520 --> 00:09:40,240 Speaker 1: where you'll have general staring down at a map and 174 00:09:40,240 --> 00:09:43,280 Speaker 1: then they'll be pieces on the map representing where the 175 00:09:43,400 --> 00:09:46,520 Speaker 1: army is. Now, for a general to command an army, 176 00:09:46,520 --> 00:09:49,880 Speaker 1: you're having to depend on that general sending out messages 177 00:09:50,160 --> 00:09:52,160 Speaker 1: to the to the army to command where they're going 178 00:09:52,200 --> 00:09:55,080 Speaker 1: to go. And then those individual units in the in 179 00:09:55,120 --> 00:09:57,360 Speaker 1: the army, you're sending back messages to the general to 180 00:09:57,480 --> 00:10:00,920 Speaker 1: let uh he or she know where the army is. 181 00:10:01,040 --> 00:10:03,280 Speaker 1: And then all of that is put on a map, 182 00:10:03,360 --> 00:10:06,240 Speaker 1: and then the general has a has an idea in 183 00:10:06,280 --> 00:10:09,800 Speaker 1: his or her head regarding the shape of the army, 184 00:10:09,840 --> 00:10:12,840 Speaker 1: the formation of the army, where the army is and 185 00:10:12,880 --> 00:10:17,160 Speaker 1: where it is going, and not to encourage a horse 186 00:10:17,200 --> 00:10:20,319 Speaker 1: and rider view of the mind body connection. But that's 187 00:10:20,400 --> 00:10:23,600 Speaker 1: kind of what's happening here. There's all this data coming 188 00:10:23,600 --> 00:10:26,760 Speaker 1: together and it's an assembling too, and it's really kind 189 00:10:26,760 --> 00:10:30,920 Speaker 1: of a complicated, um, cognitive process. I mean, the human 190 00:10:30,920 --> 00:10:33,760 Speaker 1: experience is more like a tapestry the more we look 191 00:10:33,800 --> 00:10:35,719 Speaker 1: at it. But but that's kind of what's going on 192 00:10:36,080 --> 00:10:38,280 Speaker 1: in this in this body schemma. Well, yeah, because if 193 00:10:38,280 --> 00:10:41,000 Speaker 1: you're looking at this map that these men on the field, right, 194 00:10:41,120 --> 00:10:44,359 Speaker 1: you could kind of look at the vestibular and kinesthetic 195 00:10:44,440 --> 00:10:47,319 Speaker 1: systems as being some of those men. However, they are 196 00:10:47,400 --> 00:10:51,520 Speaker 1: not appropri reception, right um, you know alone. They have 197 00:10:51,640 --> 00:10:54,839 Speaker 1: to be working in tandem to create that picture. So 198 00:10:54,920 --> 00:10:57,480 Speaker 1: when we talk about the vestibular system, we're talking about 199 00:10:57,480 --> 00:11:00,640 Speaker 1: the master controller of our balance and spatial orientation. And 200 00:11:00,679 --> 00:11:04,000 Speaker 1: when we talk about kinesthetic system, we're talking more about 201 00:11:04,040 --> 00:11:08,679 Speaker 1: motion and behavior, or rather even the habits of movements, 202 00:11:08,760 --> 00:11:11,720 Speaker 1: like your eyes between the computer screen and your keyboard. 203 00:11:12,480 --> 00:11:15,120 Speaker 1: So that's some of the data that comes in. But 204 00:11:15,200 --> 00:11:18,080 Speaker 1: according to Joseph Bennington Castro and he's writing for Ion 205 00:11:18,200 --> 00:11:21,640 Speaker 1: nine quote comparatively pro pri reception has more to do 206 00:11:21,720 --> 00:11:24,880 Speaker 1: with body position and focuses on the cognitive awareness of 207 00:11:24,920 --> 00:11:27,080 Speaker 1: the body of space, so it's not just those two 208 00:11:27,120 --> 00:11:32,760 Speaker 1: elements of the stibular and kinesthetic. And this kind of 209 00:11:32,800 --> 00:11:35,920 Speaker 1: gets us into this weird area too, because people will 210 00:11:35,960 --> 00:11:40,360 Speaker 1: sometimes say, well, sure, pro preeception is kind of a medicine, 211 00:11:40,480 --> 00:11:45,400 Speaker 1: but it couldn't be like alongside one of the five senses, right, 212 00:11:45,520 --> 00:11:48,439 Speaker 1: because when we talk about the five senses, we're talking 213 00:11:48,480 --> 00:11:53,320 Speaker 1: about experiencing the outside world, whereas pro preeception allows us 214 00:11:53,360 --> 00:11:56,439 Speaker 1: to understand the physical place within that world. So that's 215 00:11:56,520 --> 00:11:57,719 Speaker 1: I just want to bring that there's a bit of 216 00:11:57,800 --> 00:12:01,120 Speaker 1: quibbling when we talk about this as it's well, one 217 00:12:01,160 --> 00:12:03,600 Speaker 1: thing about it, though, I feel like with with site, 218 00:12:03,760 --> 00:12:08,160 Speaker 1: with smell, with hearing, these are all process processes that 219 00:12:08,160 --> 00:12:10,839 Speaker 1: that seem a lot simpler based on that sort of 220 00:12:10,840 --> 00:12:14,520 Speaker 1: take it for granted every day um experience. But as 221 00:12:14,600 --> 00:12:16,720 Speaker 1: as we've explored on the show, when you start looking 222 00:12:16,760 --> 00:12:19,120 Speaker 1: at site in the way site works, or how smell works, 223 00:12:19,200 --> 00:12:22,760 Speaker 1: or or how hearing works, all these are are far 224 00:12:22,800 --> 00:12:25,480 Speaker 1: more complicated than we give them credit on a daily basis. 225 00:12:25,480 --> 00:12:27,120 Speaker 1: I mean, just on hearing alone, you get into the 226 00:12:27,120 --> 00:12:29,839 Speaker 1: two different ways that you hear the world hearing with 227 00:12:29,880 --> 00:12:33,000 Speaker 1: the with your inner ear hearing with your skull. You 228 00:12:33,040 --> 00:12:35,280 Speaker 1: can you can take just about any of these these 229 00:12:35,280 --> 00:12:38,240 Speaker 1: senses and you can divide them up into into more 230 00:12:38,240 --> 00:12:41,760 Speaker 1: complicated systems, especially touch, as we mentioned earlier, you can 231 00:12:41,760 --> 00:12:45,160 Speaker 1: get into all the various ways that are our sense 232 00:12:45,200 --> 00:12:47,719 Speaker 1: of touch interacts with the world. I agree. I think 233 00:12:47,760 --> 00:12:50,520 Speaker 1: that pro preception is just right there alongside with the 234 00:12:50,559 --> 00:12:53,320 Speaker 1: other senses in the way that you can view it 235 00:12:53,400 --> 00:12:56,679 Speaker 1: as pointill is um right um. Each one of those 236 00:12:56,760 --> 00:13:01,800 Speaker 1: dots creates that picture of whatever that sense is. So 237 00:13:02,120 --> 00:13:04,160 Speaker 1: it gets us to this idea of how does our 238 00:13:04,200 --> 00:13:07,120 Speaker 1: brain keep track of our body? Anyway? Yes, how does 239 00:13:07,160 --> 00:13:09,360 Speaker 1: it do that thing that it does? We're gonna take 240 00:13:09,360 --> 00:13:11,760 Speaker 1: a quick breaking when we come back. We're gonna jump 241 00:13:12,040 --> 00:13:21,840 Speaker 1: into that question. All right, we're back, and we're gonna 242 00:13:21,840 --> 00:13:24,480 Speaker 1: talk about how our brain keeps track of our body. 243 00:13:24,600 --> 00:13:27,319 Speaker 1: So we're gonna go sort of into the nitty gritty 244 00:13:27,320 --> 00:13:29,480 Speaker 1: in a second. But let's get this obvious part out 245 00:13:29,480 --> 00:13:31,880 Speaker 1: of the way when we talk about equilibrium and orientation, 246 00:13:31,920 --> 00:13:36,400 Speaker 1: because in humans, gravity, position, orientation, those are all registered 247 00:13:36,400 --> 00:13:40,880 Speaker 1: by tiny greens called odo life moving within two fluid 248 00:13:40,960 --> 00:13:43,120 Speaker 1: filled sacks in the inner ear in response to any 249 00:13:43,200 --> 00:13:47,240 Speaker 1: change or position and orientation and their motion is detected 250 00:13:47,280 --> 00:13:50,679 Speaker 1: by sense hairs. So rotation is detected by the inertial 251 00:13:50,960 --> 00:13:55,120 Speaker 1: lag of fluid and the semi circular canals acting on 252 00:13:55,200 --> 00:13:58,200 Speaker 1: the sense hairs. Okay, let's getting the weeds with all 253 00:13:58,240 --> 00:14:01,960 Speaker 1: that stuff. So you have central nervous system integrating signals 254 00:14:01,960 --> 00:14:05,640 Speaker 1: from the canal to perceive rotation in three dimensions. In 255 00:14:05,760 --> 00:14:10,440 Speaker 1: the meantime, if you're saying getting off an elevator, let's 256 00:14:10,480 --> 00:14:13,520 Speaker 1: slow mo this and figure out how your brain is 257 00:14:13,559 --> 00:14:16,360 Speaker 1: then figuring out how it's transitioning from one place to 258 00:14:16,360 --> 00:14:19,440 Speaker 1: another and where it is, right, because we've mentioned before 259 00:14:19,440 --> 00:14:21,720 Speaker 1: the elevator's magic. The door opens and we're in a 260 00:14:21,720 --> 00:14:24,480 Speaker 1: different setting, and I suddenly have to figure out where 261 00:14:24,520 --> 00:14:26,440 Speaker 1: I am, which way is right, which way is left, 262 00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:29,480 Speaker 1: which way leads to the castle, which way leads to 263 00:14:29,520 --> 00:14:32,320 Speaker 1: certain death, at least that's how it is in our building, right. 264 00:14:32,840 --> 00:14:34,440 Speaker 1: So that's when you get into this idea that pro 265 00:14:34,560 --> 00:14:38,600 Speaker 1: prereception uses receptors located in the skin, muscles and joints. 266 00:14:38,760 --> 00:14:41,680 Speaker 1: And if we slow mo this, we can see when 267 00:14:41,680 --> 00:14:45,880 Speaker 1: we've got a microscope here, Uh, we're inside actually the muscle, now, 268 00:14:46,760 --> 00:14:51,640 Speaker 1: muscle spindles, signaling the angle of related joints and telling 269 00:14:51,640 --> 00:14:53,600 Speaker 1: the brain, hey, this is going on. And then you 270 00:14:53,640 --> 00:14:56,600 Speaker 1: get stretch receptors getting in on the game. Yeah, and 271 00:14:56,600 --> 00:15:00,200 Speaker 1: these are detecting small movements of the limbs. So again 272 00:15:00,240 --> 00:15:02,640 Speaker 1: it's just general ideas of what are the limbs doing, 273 00:15:02,760 --> 00:15:05,120 Speaker 1: what kind of what kind of movements are taking place, 274 00:15:05,160 --> 00:15:07,480 Speaker 1: what kind of force is taking place? Yeah, just another 275 00:15:07,600 --> 00:15:11,400 Speaker 1: dot in the point as um picture. And then within 276 00:15:11,480 --> 00:15:15,360 Speaker 1: the tendons that attached to muscles two bones, there are 277 00:15:15,520 --> 00:15:21,000 Speaker 1: PreO pre aceptors called Goldie tendon organs, which would be 278 00:15:21,040 --> 00:15:24,400 Speaker 1: clocking the muscle tension and reporting about that. Yeah. This 279 00:15:24,440 --> 00:15:27,440 Speaker 1: gets into how much force am I exerting? Right, So, 280 00:15:27,560 --> 00:15:29,720 Speaker 1: which is something that can get a little out of 281 00:15:29,760 --> 00:15:33,440 Speaker 1: whack if you are, say, really worn out or maybe inebriated, 282 00:15:33,720 --> 00:15:36,560 Speaker 1: but you need to know how much if you're putting 283 00:15:36,600 --> 00:15:39,600 Speaker 1: into your efforts. Yeah, you get that sense of effort 284 00:15:39,640 --> 00:15:42,200 Speaker 1: because all of those different processes are informing like, okay, 285 00:15:42,240 --> 00:15:44,280 Speaker 1: this is how much force I'm exerting, as you say, 286 00:15:44,600 --> 00:15:49,080 Speaker 1: and then that's getting reported to the cerebellum, which would 287 00:15:49,120 --> 00:15:52,920 Speaker 1: then take that information and try to determine the location 288 00:15:53,000 --> 00:15:56,280 Speaker 1: and the movement of body. Parts, and finally it would 289 00:15:56,360 --> 00:15:59,320 Speaker 1: match that up to the body schema or that stored 290 00:15:59,400 --> 00:16:03,040 Speaker 1: body mob well that we talked about. But and here's 291 00:16:03,040 --> 00:16:09,120 Speaker 1: the rub body schema. Appropri Receptive cues aren't always reliable, Yeah, 292 00:16:09,120 --> 00:16:13,360 Speaker 1: because especially body schema. We've we've discussed before how the 293 00:16:13,400 --> 00:16:16,800 Speaker 1: fact that body schema is notable is key to our 294 00:16:17,680 --> 00:16:21,560 Speaker 1: success as they cool using organism because if you remember 295 00:16:21,560 --> 00:16:24,200 Speaker 1: from our our episode on tool using tool use, when 296 00:16:24,240 --> 00:16:27,480 Speaker 1: we use a tool, be it an ink pin, a hammer, 297 00:16:27,600 --> 00:16:31,000 Speaker 1: or a battle axe, the brain adapts to that tool 298 00:16:31,080 --> 00:16:34,160 Speaker 1: and incorporates it into the body schema, which works to 299 00:16:34,200 --> 00:16:37,600 Speaker 1: our advantage this particular life hack, if you will, when 300 00:16:37,640 --> 00:16:40,240 Speaker 1: we need to write something hamm or something, or chop 301 00:16:40,320 --> 00:16:43,640 Speaker 1: someone's head off. So you can see how when someone 302 00:16:43,680 --> 00:16:47,360 Speaker 1: looks at a rubber hand, for instance, they might think 303 00:16:47,480 --> 00:16:50,680 Speaker 1: that it's their own. Not initially, of course, but as 304 00:16:50,680 --> 00:16:53,960 Speaker 1: you say. This idea that something becomes part of you 305 00:16:54,760 --> 00:16:59,600 Speaker 1: um is steeped in a study by Marcello Constantini who 306 00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:04,680 Speaker 1: had subjects view stimulation of a rubber hand and at 307 00:17:04,680 --> 00:17:07,040 Speaker 1: the same time their own hand was touched in the 308 00:17:07,119 --> 00:17:11,560 Speaker 1: same manner. Okay, so there succeeded at the table. Have 309 00:17:11,640 --> 00:17:13,760 Speaker 1: your own hand. Here there's another rubber hand next to it. 310 00:17:15,240 --> 00:17:17,600 Speaker 1: That hand is being stroked. Your hand is being stroked. 311 00:17:17,640 --> 00:17:20,360 Speaker 1: So you have the visual information of these two arms 312 00:17:20,720 --> 00:17:25,080 Speaker 1: being stroked, and then you have the sense data reaching 313 00:17:25,080 --> 00:17:28,160 Speaker 1: your brain as well of a hand being stroked. Yeah, 314 00:17:28,240 --> 00:17:30,359 Speaker 1: I mean they come to feel like that rubber hand 315 00:17:30,480 --> 00:17:32,440 Speaker 1: is part of their own body. And this is called 316 00:17:32,480 --> 00:17:36,600 Speaker 1: appropri receptive drift, and it's an example of how easy 317 00:17:36,640 --> 00:17:41,720 Speaker 1: it is to have a spatial mismatching and um in 318 00:17:41,800 --> 00:17:45,639 Speaker 1: the abstract of the paper that Constantini has says, current 319 00:17:45,720 --> 00:17:49,920 Speaker 1: sensory evidence about what is me is interpreted with respect 320 00:17:49,960 --> 00:17:55,160 Speaker 1: to a prior mental body representation, meaning that this idea 321 00:17:55,280 --> 00:17:57,760 Speaker 1: of where we are who we are is kind of 322 00:17:57,960 --> 00:18:01,240 Speaker 1: easily messed with. In act, you can take the same 323 00:18:01,280 --> 00:18:03,960 Speaker 1: idea and you can you can extrapolate it a little 324 00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:07,760 Speaker 1: more and actually make the test subject feel as if 325 00:18:07,760 --> 00:18:10,399 Speaker 1: they have three arms. And for this we look to 326 00:18:10,480 --> 00:18:15,640 Speaker 1: a two thousand eleven study from Sweden's Carolinska Institute UH 327 00:18:15,760 --> 00:18:18,720 Speaker 1: and this this is pretty pretty amazing against similar in 328 00:18:18,760 --> 00:18:21,160 Speaker 1: a sense to the rubber hand illusion. They created an 329 00:18:21,160 --> 00:18:24,640 Speaker 1: experiment where subjects had a prosthetic but realistic rubber arm 330 00:18:24,840 --> 00:18:27,680 Speaker 1: placed right next to their right arm. And then the 331 00:18:27,760 --> 00:18:32,199 Speaker 1: experimenters started touching both right arms with a brush in 332 00:18:32,240 --> 00:18:36,840 Speaker 1: the same location, trying to make identical brushstrokes in time 333 00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:40,080 Speaker 1: and location, so similar again to what we saw we 334 00:18:40,080 --> 00:18:43,040 Speaker 1: saw in the rubber arm. And I remember this is 335 00:18:43,080 --> 00:18:45,560 Speaker 1: a first person view of this. They're they're seeing this 336 00:18:45,680 --> 00:18:48,720 Speaker 1: as their arms. Imagine across the room, right, I manage 337 00:18:48,760 --> 00:18:51,320 Speaker 1: yourself at that table, looking down at your one left arm, 338 00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:53,760 Speaker 1: your right arm, and then this plastic right arm there 339 00:18:53,760 --> 00:18:57,400 Speaker 1: as well, and some stranger is stroking it um And 340 00:18:57,480 --> 00:19:00,680 Speaker 1: what happens is is pretty crazy. According to head researcher 341 00:19:00,880 --> 00:19:05,040 Speaker 1: Arvid Gurtustan, what happens is a conflict arises in the 342 00:19:05,080 --> 00:19:07,520 Speaker 1: brain concerning which of the right hands belongs to the 343 00:19:07,560 --> 00:19:12,520 Speaker 1: participant's body, which one could expect. What one could expect 344 00:19:12,640 --> 00:19:15,080 Speaker 1: is that only one of the hands is experienced as 345 00:19:15,160 --> 00:19:18,399 Speaker 1: one's own, presumably the real arm. But what we found, 346 00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:22,240 Speaker 1: surprisingly is that the brain solved this conflict by accepting 347 00:19:22,359 --> 00:19:25,399 Speaker 1: both right hands as part of the body image and 348 00:19:25,440 --> 00:19:28,760 Speaker 1: the subject experience having an extra third arm. So again 349 00:19:28,760 --> 00:19:31,200 Speaker 1: it gets into that same idea of the body scheme 350 00:19:31,240 --> 00:19:33,560 Speaker 1: is saying, all right, my the end of my left 351 00:19:33,560 --> 00:19:35,520 Speaker 1: hand is a battle axe. Now, okay, we can roll 352 00:19:35,600 --> 00:19:38,120 Speaker 1: with it. And here the body schema is updating and saying, 353 00:19:38,119 --> 00:19:42,320 Speaker 1: all right, is a third arm. It's psychologically before to like, 354 00:19:42,359 --> 00:19:45,080 Speaker 1: how do people accept some some piece of information that 355 00:19:45,280 --> 00:19:48,280 Speaker 1: is starkly different from what they thought was happening. Well, 356 00:19:48,280 --> 00:19:51,040 Speaker 1: they just accept it, right, Um, So it's kind of 357 00:19:51,119 --> 00:19:54,720 Speaker 1: not to you know, surprising that this would happen. But 358 00:19:55,240 --> 00:19:59,800 Speaker 1: how do the researchers know for sure that the participant 359 00:19:59,840 --> 00:20:03,440 Speaker 1: is really accepting this body part as their own. Well, 360 00:20:03,480 --> 00:20:06,480 Speaker 1: you've got to you've got inflict little pain, you gotta 361 00:20:06,560 --> 00:20:11,720 Speaker 1: at least bring out a knife. And that's what they did. Uh, 362 00:20:11,760 --> 00:20:15,480 Speaker 1: They threatened the arm with a knife, and they saw 363 00:20:15,520 --> 00:20:18,800 Speaker 1: the participants a lynch and then you know, maybe it 364 00:20:18,840 --> 00:20:20,600 Speaker 1: was just because they saw a knife. So how else 365 00:20:20,640 --> 00:20:25,000 Speaker 1: would they measure that response? Well with a goalvonic skin response, 366 00:20:25,080 --> 00:20:28,119 Speaker 1: which would measure the amount of sweat um, which of 367 00:20:28,160 --> 00:20:30,400 Speaker 1: course is one of those things that's a telltale sign 368 00:20:30,400 --> 00:20:33,480 Speaker 1: of fear. Now you watch the video. I didn't. Now 369 00:20:33,520 --> 00:20:37,160 Speaker 1: I'm imagining the researchers are there gathered around this individual 370 00:20:37,240 --> 00:20:39,480 Speaker 1: with the third plastic arm there, and they've done some 371 00:20:39,560 --> 00:20:42,200 Speaker 1: gentle stroking of the real arm and the plastic arm 372 00:20:42,240 --> 00:20:46,080 Speaker 1: to to inspire this sense of of of having three limbs. 373 00:20:46,200 --> 00:20:48,560 Speaker 1: And then imagine one of the researchers reaching under the table, 374 00:20:48,560 --> 00:20:52,080 Speaker 1: pulling out a dagger and just stabbing, just nailing that 375 00:20:52,240 --> 00:20:54,840 Speaker 1: that third plastic arm to the table so that the dagger, 376 00:20:54,880 --> 00:20:57,960 Speaker 1: you know, vibrates and quivers, and then the test of 377 00:20:58,000 --> 00:21:01,440 Speaker 1: you just shrieks and uh and away. Is that what happened? 378 00:21:01,720 --> 00:21:05,439 Speaker 1: Exactly what happened? No? No, but yeah, kind of except 379 00:21:05,480 --> 00:21:07,320 Speaker 1: for like they didn't like, you just did this big 380 00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:10,120 Speaker 1: arm movement that was big, overarching. I mean they brought 381 00:21:10,160 --> 00:21:12,520 Speaker 1: out the knife and then they brought it up to 382 00:21:13,160 --> 00:21:17,960 Speaker 1: the hand. Um, so it wasn't any sudden movement. But 383 00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:20,479 Speaker 1: you know, obviously there was an implied threat there. Well, 384 00:21:20,480 --> 00:21:23,040 Speaker 1: they're probably standards in practice for the sort of experiment. 385 00:21:23,080 --> 00:21:25,200 Speaker 1: There's a certain way you have to threaten your test 386 00:21:25,240 --> 00:21:28,640 Speaker 1: subjects with a knife. Well, and they explored that. They 387 00:21:28,640 --> 00:21:34,000 Speaker 1: explored this idea more by having someone have a mannequin 388 00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:37,520 Speaker 1: right across from them and then having these little goggles 389 00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:42,280 Speaker 1: on that gave them the vision of being the mannequin. 390 00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:45,639 Speaker 1: Does that make sense? Yes, they're they're wearing basically virtual 391 00:21:45,680 --> 00:21:48,480 Speaker 1: reality goggles. They put them in the point of view 392 00:21:48,600 --> 00:21:51,080 Speaker 1: of the mannequin. Yes, they see the mannequin, and you can. 393 00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:53,919 Speaker 1: The video is great because it shows how they're this 394 00:21:54,040 --> 00:21:56,840 Speaker 1: view of looking down at their mannequin body, and so 395 00:21:56,920 --> 00:21:59,440 Speaker 1: the same sorts of things happened. They have a paint 396 00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:02,960 Speaker 1: brush that's stroking them gently, and then of course all 397 00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:05,960 Speaker 1: of their responses are being measured. Uh, and then the 398 00:22:06,040 --> 00:22:09,600 Speaker 1: knife comes out and it goes right straight across the stomach. 399 00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:13,560 Speaker 1: And so again, what you're doing here is you're removing 400 00:22:13,760 --> 00:22:18,240 Speaker 1: that distance. Um, you're changing it from a third person narrative, 401 00:22:18,320 --> 00:22:22,000 Speaker 1: as we discussed before, a first person narrative. This is fascinating. 402 00:22:22,160 --> 00:22:25,600 Speaker 1: I recently wrote a blog post about a recent study 403 00:22:25,600 --> 00:22:29,240 Speaker 1: where they took a similar situation. They had a lecture 404 00:22:29,520 --> 00:22:33,000 Speaker 1: giving a lecture about some some topic, and they had 405 00:22:33,040 --> 00:22:36,080 Speaker 1: individuals that were, uh that we're in a everyone is 406 00:22:36,080 --> 00:22:38,639 Speaker 1: in a virtual reality environment to view this lecture. But 407 00:22:38,680 --> 00:22:40,760 Speaker 1: some people have that third person sort of like that 408 00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:44,439 Speaker 1: over the shoulder video game persona like like looking at 409 00:22:44,440 --> 00:22:45,920 Speaker 1: a mannequin setting in front of you, and the other 410 00:22:45,920 --> 00:22:49,920 Speaker 1: said that first person view. And they found afterwards that 411 00:22:49,960 --> 00:22:53,200 Speaker 1: the people with the first person view had better comprehension 412 00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:55,960 Speaker 1: of the material and the lecture versus the third person, which, 413 00:22:56,000 --> 00:22:58,879 Speaker 1: again you take the human experience out of the body 414 00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:04,080 Speaker 1: experience and lose something in this case, um, memory comprehension 415 00:23:04,119 --> 00:23:07,879 Speaker 1: of what is experienced in that body, right, so that 416 00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:10,679 Speaker 1: that distance, that objectifying doesn't mean it's part of you, 417 00:23:10,760 --> 00:23:13,280 Speaker 1: so it's not as important. So the same thing with mannequin, 418 00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:14,760 Speaker 1: and all of a sudden, if you are looking at 419 00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:17,760 Speaker 1: yourself as a mannequin, you're the first person. You're you're 420 00:23:17,800 --> 00:23:20,840 Speaker 1: the one who's having the knife dragged across your chest, 421 00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:25,640 Speaker 1: and you're going to show that in a fear of response. Um. 422 00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:28,320 Speaker 1: So we're actually gonna be touching on this a little 423 00:23:28,359 --> 00:23:32,439 Speaker 1: bit in the sense of unconscious commonality in the next 424 00:23:32,520 --> 00:23:37,679 Speaker 1: episode in which we talk about nominative determinism essentially names 425 00:23:37,840 --> 00:23:42,480 Speaker 1: forming our personalities. But but even then, when you see 426 00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:46,760 Speaker 1: someone having the same name as you, you feel connected 427 00:23:46,800 --> 00:23:48,440 Speaker 1: to them. You get a little bit closer to that 428 00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:52,919 Speaker 1: first person experience, right. And we see this in our 429 00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:55,760 Speaker 1: body schema, and then we see it play out in 430 00:23:55,800 --> 00:23:59,600 Speaker 1: our unconscious which brings us to the subject of out 431 00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:03,480 Speaker 1: of the experiences because ultimately an out of body experience, 432 00:24:03,760 --> 00:24:06,800 Speaker 1: which which does exist as an experience, Um, you know, 433 00:24:06,840 --> 00:24:09,800 Speaker 1: it's it's not a situation where your soul is drifting 434 00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:12,520 Speaker 1: away from your your body or your your you know, 435 00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:14,879 Speaker 1: your your mind is about to travel the astral plane. 436 00:24:15,119 --> 00:24:19,119 Speaker 1: But the experience of existing outside of your body for 437 00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:22,960 Speaker 1: brief periods is is a reality and it's kind of 438 00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:26,399 Speaker 1: the the ultimate uh in in leaving the body scheme, 439 00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:30,879 Speaker 1: leaving prop prio sception behind, right because um, we we've 440 00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:34,000 Speaker 1: talked about us in different senses before, Like, um, if 441 00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:37,639 Speaker 1: you have ever experienced sleep paralysis, what is that? But 442 00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:41,439 Speaker 1: in misfiring of your brain and your muscles, you're waking up, 443 00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:43,199 Speaker 1: but your brain is not quite there yet and so 444 00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:46,800 Speaker 1: you can't move your body yet. Um. In the same way, 445 00:24:47,080 --> 00:24:51,960 Speaker 1: proprioception can go awry in out of body experiences. Essentially, 446 00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:55,760 Speaker 1: that is the basis for them. And this has been 447 00:24:56,359 --> 00:25:00,639 Speaker 1: looked at in pilots because pilots they can experienced the 448 00:25:00,720 --> 00:25:04,200 Speaker 1: sensation of being outside of their bodies in something called 449 00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:09,400 Speaker 1: g lock. That's called gravity induced loss of consciousness, and 450 00:25:09,960 --> 00:25:13,080 Speaker 1: this occurs frequently with fighter pilots. Right, Yeah, if you've 451 00:25:13,119 --> 00:25:16,359 Speaker 1: ever played a fighter simulator, which is my main uh 452 00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:19,320 Speaker 1: tie into this sort of stuff since I've never powered 453 00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:21,080 Speaker 1: it a plane. Uh. You you know, if you you 454 00:25:21,119 --> 00:25:24,120 Speaker 1: pull too many g's, you can experience, say a red 455 00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:27,000 Speaker 1: out where all the blood surges to your head. You 456 00:25:27,040 --> 00:25:28,919 Speaker 1: can get a gray out or even a blackout. Is 457 00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:31,800 Speaker 1: the brain is the blood leaves your brain and heads 458 00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:35,320 Speaker 1: towards your abdomen. Uh. And of course our brain needs 459 00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:38,280 Speaker 1: to have blood to function, and so if enough blood 460 00:25:38,359 --> 00:25:40,439 Speaker 1: leaves the brain, if you pull too many gs, you 461 00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:44,040 Speaker 1: black out, you lose consciousness. But some other interesting stuff 462 00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:48,720 Speaker 1: can occur there as well, as explored by Dr James Winery. Um. 463 00:25:48,760 --> 00:25:51,679 Speaker 1: And this is the the the individual who was interviewed 464 00:25:51,920 --> 00:25:54,280 Speaker 1: on that episode of Radio Lab. We were mentioned earlier, 465 00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:57,359 Speaker 1: specifically in a section of that episode titled Out of 466 00:25:57,359 --> 00:26:02,760 Speaker 1: the Body. Roger. Yeah, he looked at these pilots experiencing visions. Okay, 467 00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:05,760 Speaker 1: because as you say, they get through these different red, gray, 468 00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:08,320 Speaker 1: and then blackouts of consciousness, and along with them, they 469 00:26:08,359 --> 00:26:10,800 Speaker 1: get different ideas of what's going on or their brains 470 00:26:10,800 --> 00:26:15,200 Speaker 1: are presenting maybe a a tunnel sort of vision going 471 00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:19,000 Speaker 1: on in a gray blackout. But with those people, those 472 00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:23,720 Speaker 1: pilots who experience blackouts. Some of them said, hey, I 473 00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:27,120 Speaker 1: had some weird vision. Yeah, like it's it's one thing 474 00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:29,639 Speaker 1: to like some of the examples where I found myself 475 00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:31,879 Speaker 1: on the wing of the plane looking at myself, and 476 00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:36,720 Speaker 1: that's that's weird and interesting, but it's more based in, alright, 477 00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:39,320 Speaker 1: the reality of where you were. You just saw yourself 478 00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:42,960 Speaker 1: outside of yourself. You were kind of viewing that model 479 00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:44,960 Speaker 1: of the self that we talked about earlier, instead of 480 00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:48,119 Speaker 1: experiencing it from within or or simply blacking out. Right. 481 00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:50,600 Speaker 1: That's fine too, But but some of the stories, for instance, 482 00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:54,439 Speaker 1: we're you're blacking out and suddenly you're fishing on a 483 00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:58,840 Speaker 1: river somewhere, which sounds so cinematic made up that it. 484 00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:01,639 Speaker 1: Uh yeah, I wouldn't need to have they even bought 485 00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:03,439 Speaker 1: that idea. Had I seen it in a movie, like 486 00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:06,640 Speaker 1: our hero blacks out wall fighting the Germans in the air, 487 00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:09,360 Speaker 1: and suddenly he's back home fishing, I would have said, 488 00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:12,480 Speaker 1: that's complete hueie. But that's exactly the type of experience 489 00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:15,639 Speaker 1: that Winery came across in his studies. Yeah, they're fishing. 490 00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:18,920 Speaker 1: There's another one which the guy was shopping for ice cream. 491 00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:21,840 Speaker 1: So what I thought was interesting about both of these 492 00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:25,800 Speaker 1: examples is that in this dream or what they call 493 00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:30,760 Speaker 1: vision um, they were struggling with motor control. They were 494 00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:33,199 Speaker 1: struggling with the real they were struggling to try to 495 00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:37,159 Speaker 1: reach into that ice cream freezer to extract the ice cream. 496 00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:40,639 Speaker 1: And so what you see here, I think, is this 497 00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:44,080 Speaker 1: idea that the brain has trying to square where it 498 00:27:44,320 --> 00:27:48,920 Speaker 1: is in the motor control necessary to help it try 499 00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:52,200 Speaker 1: to get its pro pre reception back right the body. 500 00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:54,240 Speaker 1: The person, the pilot is in a situation where they're 501 00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:57,040 Speaker 1: trying to pull back on the controls and gain control 502 00:27:57,119 --> 00:28:00,160 Speaker 1: of the aircraft again, but they're they're losing consciousness, they're 503 00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:02,879 Speaker 1: blacking out. The brain is essentially losing not only a 504 00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:06,800 Speaker 1: visual understanding of where that the individual is, but also 505 00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:11,159 Speaker 1: a PreO perceptive understanding of of of what's going on, 506 00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:13,959 Speaker 1: and therefore it has to fill in the blanks. Uh. 507 00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:17,040 Speaker 1: We've we've run across examples of this in the podcast before, 508 00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:20,760 Speaker 1: where the brain has to and actually on a regular basis, 509 00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:24,080 Speaker 1: fill in the missing pieces in its perception of the 510 00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:28,320 Speaker 1: of reality. Now, forty of the subjects who reported out 511 00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:32,840 Speaker 1: of body experiences, a subset of them had that kind 512 00:28:32,840 --> 00:28:35,840 Speaker 1: of white lights at the end of a tunnel vision 513 00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:38,960 Speaker 1: and we've heard about this before, right. Um turns out 514 00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:41,920 Speaker 1: they were out the longest, and again that gives us 515 00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:46,080 Speaker 1: a clue about the sort of um distance that they 516 00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:48,760 Speaker 1: were from their bodies. The longer they're out, perhaps the 517 00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:51,840 Speaker 1: less sort of data that they're getting in, the less 518 00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:54,480 Speaker 1: that their minds can create a picture of where they are. 519 00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:58,800 Speaker 1: And the idea is that they're just so disassilitated, disassociated 520 00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:01,520 Speaker 1: from their bodies that they're minds can't really pin them 521 00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:04,920 Speaker 1: to space and time, and in that absence, that's the 522 00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:09,040 Speaker 1: story that's created. UM. It's interesting. In a two thousand 523 00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:12,240 Speaker 1: five study published in the Journal of Neuroscience, the researchers 524 00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:17,959 Speaker 1: actually used transcranial magnetic stimulation of the temporo parietal junction 525 00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:21,600 Speaker 1: and they were able to impair the mental transformation of 526 00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:24,719 Speaker 1: the body and healthy volunteers, essentially inducing an out of 527 00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:29,840 Speaker 1: body experience. And did a recent episode This was with 528 00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:32,800 Speaker 1: the guys from Stuff They Don't Want You To Know 529 00:29:33,280 --> 00:29:35,840 Speaker 1: mind On we did one about shadow people, similar situation. 530 00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:41,160 Speaker 1: There uh electrical stimulation of the t PJ, which concerns 531 00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:45,680 Speaker 1: self processing, self other distinction, multi central body integration. There's 532 00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:48,160 Speaker 1: no one part of the brain that's involved appropriate reception. 533 00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:51,200 Speaker 1: But but certainly the TPJ is in the mix. And 534 00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:53,680 Speaker 1: in this case, in this one particular style you mentioned 535 00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:57,040 Speaker 1: in that episode, by electronically stimulating this part of the brain, 536 00:29:57,200 --> 00:30:00,760 Speaker 1: they're able to induce the perception that, uh, that there 537 00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:04,400 Speaker 1: is another you, a sort of stranger you, just like 538 00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:07,520 Speaker 1: a few inches or less away from your body. So 539 00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:09,680 Speaker 1: just able to take the the idea of who we 540 00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:12,040 Speaker 1: are and where we are and skew it just a 541 00:30:12,040 --> 00:30:14,760 Speaker 1: little bit. Yeah, if anybody is interested in reading a 542 00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:17,720 Speaker 1: bit more about this, John Horgan has a great book 543 00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:21,800 Speaker 1: called Rational Mysticism, and he interviews Michael Persinger, who was 544 00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:25,160 Speaker 1: one of the people who uses those transcranial magnets and 545 00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:28,280 Speaker 1: who was looked into this idea of ghosts. All right, 546 00:30:28,360 --> 00:30:31,680 Speaker 1: this is god helmet, the god helmet, right, And and um, 547 00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:33,720 Speaker 1: I think you can get a good sense of how 548 00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:36,520 Speaker 1: easy HIT is to kind of mess with someone's reality 549 00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:38,720 Speaker 1: by by warping in a little bit in the magnetic 550 00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:42,640 Speaker 1: field there. Um. But anyway, yeah, I mean it's it's 551 00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:45,120 Speaker 1: it's fascinating to me just because we take it for granted, 552 00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:47,520 Speaker 1: this idea that we're rooted in our body and we 553 00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:49,160 Speaker 1: are who we are, and we're just moving through time 554 00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:51,920 Speaker 1: and space. But um, you know, to go back to 555 00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:56,040 Speaker 1: Walter James and that there thought experiment, I think it 556 00:30:56,120 --> 00:30:59,560 Speaker 1: says so much about how we perceive in color our 557 00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:03,239 Speaker 1: emotions and experiences of life through our body. Yeah. One 558 00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:05,960 Speaker 1: of the things I love about appropriate reception is that 559 00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:12,520 Speaker 1: essentially this is key to this embodied, consistent self, uh, 560 00:31:12,560 --> 00:31:14,719 Speaker 1: that we perceive at the center of a changing universe, 561 00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:18,360 Speaker 1: which is part impartial to everything from the illusion of 562 00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:21,840 Speaker 1: the soul to personal importance. I mean, so much of 563 00:31:21,840 --> 00:31:27,360 Speaker 1: the human experience hinges on this sense. Indeed, it does. 564 00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:30,640 Speaker 1: I'm hinging on it right now, are you okay? Hinge 565 00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:33,080 Speaker 1: on hingeon? So there you have it. I hope that 566 00:31:33,120 --> 00:31:35,400 Speaker 1: forces everyone to just take a few seconds during the 567 00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:37,840 Speaker 1: course of your day to just stop and think about 568 00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:42,640 Speaker 1: how complicated this, uh, this scenario is in which we 569 00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:45,160 Speaker 1: we know exactly where we are and what our body 570 00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:48,760 Speaker 1: is doing. So again, it sounds a bit like stoner talk, 571 00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:52,240 Speaker 1: but it's it's truly amazing that we know where we 572 00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:54,680 Speaker 1: are and know where our body is. Yeah, er minds here. 573 00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:56,520 Speaker 1: When I was little, I used to do, I guess 574 00:31:56,760 --> 00:31:58,800 Speaker 1: you would call a thought experiment. I used to imagine 575 00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:02,200 Speaker 1: myself on a grid, and I imagine myself can tiny, tiny, 576 00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:06,440 Speaker 1: twenty and then getting huge, and the sense of that 577 00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:09,560 Speaker 1: scale in my own mind and body. I used to 578 00:32:09,560 --> 00:32:13,000 Speaker 1: think that I could physically feel those effects because I 579 00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:17,600 Speaker 1: was insane, um and I was six years old. But 580 00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:19,360 Speaker 1: but it is kind of one of those things that 581 00:32:19,480 --> 00:32:21,920 Speaker 1: it's just amazing when you look at it a little 582 00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:25,040 Speaker 1: bit closer. And if you guys have any personal experiences 583 00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:27,960 Speaker 1: with us, whether it's out of body experiences or just 584 00:32:28,080 --> 00:32:31,800 Speaker 1: ever feeling sort of um, disassociated with your body, we 585 00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:34,840 Speaker 1: would love to hear about it. Yes indeed, so be 586 00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:36,720 Speaker 1: sure to get in touch with us and share those 587 00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:40,880 Speaker 1: stories with your district. General thoughts on this topic. As always, 588 00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:42,760 Speaker 1: the best place to go for the stuff to Blow 589 00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:45,720 Speaker 1: your Mind experience is stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. 590 00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:48,560 Speaker 1: That's where you will find all the latest podcast episodes 591 00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:50,840 Speaker 1: and all the old podcast episodes going all the way 592 00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:53,920 Speaker 1: back to the beginning. You'll find um over a thousand 593 00:32:53,920 --> 00:32:57,080 Speaker 1: blog posts. You'll find a whole bunch of videos, as 594 00:32:57,080 --> 00:32:59,280 Speaker 1: well as links out to our various social media accounts 595 00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:03,120 Speaker 1: such as Facebook, Twitter, Tunneler mind Stuff Show, that's their 596 00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:07,280 Speaker 1: name on YouTube and tortually. Is there another way they 597 00:33:07,320 --> 00:33:09,960 Speaker 1: can reach out to us, perhaps with their minds or 598 00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:14,000 Speaker 1: am I forgetting something well their minds and their bodies specifically, 599 00:33:14,040 --> 00:33:16,280 Speaker 1: like just tapping out an email and you can do 600 00:33:16,360 --> 00:33:23,080 Speaker 1: that at blow the Mind at Discovery dot com for 601 00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:25,480 Speaker 1: more on this and thousands of other topics, Does it 602 00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:32,840 Speaker 1: How stuff works dot com