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Speaker 1: Happy Thursday. And for me and NAT's fan, this is

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Speaker 1: an anxiety ridden day because it is trade deadline day

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Speaker 1: in Major League Baseball. And if you're a Nats fan,

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Speaker 1: all that is meant it's like writing a roller coaster.

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Speaker 1: You're just hoping they don't do something to make you

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Speaker 1: throw up on the roller coaster. And in this case,

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Speaker 1: do they going to trade away one of their young stars,

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Speaker 1: particularly McKenzie Gore. I'm modestly optimistic that they're not going

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Speaker 1: to do this. I could argue whatever whatever they think

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Speaker 1: Gore's value is in a trade. This trade deadline is

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Speaker 1: probably the same as it is one year from now.

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Speaker 1: But at least pretend that you care about the fans,

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Speaker 1: Pretend that you want to build a contender before the

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Speaker 1: end of the decade. Trading away McKenzie gore is surrender,

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Speaker 1: waving the white flag and sending the message to season

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Speaker 1: ticket holders, don't bother, don't bother. But I'm modestly optimistic

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Speaker 1: that they know that there is that the that the

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Speaker 1: juice isn't worth the squeeze in this one. Unless the

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Speaker 1: Cubs offer Pete crow Armstrong. Beyond that, there is not

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Speaker 1: a trade that I would accept for McKenzie core. So

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Speaker 1: that's that's how I'm spending my Thursday, constantly waiting for

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Speaker 1: that notification or hoping that notification doesn't come. But I

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Speaker 1: will say generally, as a baseball fan, this is usually

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Speaker 1: a really exciting day unless it's your team that's on

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Speaker 1: the chopping block and then suddenly it's nothing but anxiety,

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Speaker 1: nothing but bad news on that front. But look, I

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Speaker 1: want to focus today. I have an interesting interview today

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Speaker 1: and it gets it to the debate about media, about partisanship,

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Speaker 1: about bias, What is fairness, et cetera. To a Tera McGowan,

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Speaker 1: she's the founder of Courier Newsroom and these are it's

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Speaker 1: a news organization that's decidedly progressive, and they have said

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Speaker 1: they want to help fill the gap in local news

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Speaker 1: markets where local news has gone away, and yes, they

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Speaker 1: are a vehicle for progressive messaging. Now, TERA will argue

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Speaker 1: that their strict journalistic standards, and the question is is

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Speaker 1: this is this the right direction for the press to go?

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Speaker 1: Of course, at the end of the day, it's the

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Speaker 1: first Amendment. There's been an entire conservative ecosystem that has

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Speaker 1: been built both for communications and for reporting, and there's

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Speaker 1: always been now the right, we'll say mainstream media is

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Speaker 1: the liberal version of this. Those of us that work

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Speaker 1: in mainstream media know that that's a bunch of bullshit.

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Speaker 1: But there is always been a liberal media that exists,

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Speaker 1: whether it's an American Prospect, whether it's Mother Jones, whether it's

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Speaker 1: an off Post and things like that. So and I

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Speaker 1: think it's in that spirit that she makes her argument.

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Speaker 1: And look, I come into it a bit skeptical, but respectful.

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Speaker 1: And you know, that's the type of conversations I continue

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Speaker 1: to want to have. I'm I am not going to

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Speaker 1: be a podcast that only is here to confirm your

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Speaker 1: beliefs and only to find guests that confirm my beliefs.

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Speaker 1: I don't want to do that. And so in that spirit,

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Speaker 1: I hope you enjoy the conversation with her on that.

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Speaker 1: But before we get to it, a few things going

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Speaker 1: to empty sort of my reporter analyst notebook, if you will.

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Speaker 1: We're going to start with President Trump and and the

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Speaker 1: fact that somebody needs to take the shovel away. Right,

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Speaker 1: there's two ways to look at this, right, if you're

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Speaker 1: if you're a Trump critic and you just want to

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Speaker 1: see Trump hoisted on his own Petard, you you are

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Speaker 1: loving you were like, Please Donald Trump, keep talking about

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Speaker 1: Jeffrey Epstein, keep taking questions about Jeffrey Epstein. That was

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Speaker 1: the theme of Bill Crystal's Wednesday morning newsletter. And he was

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Speaker 1: reacting to a bit of a head scratcher decision by

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Speaker 1: the president, right, which is here he is. He claims

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Speaker 1: to be tired of the Epstein story. The folks around

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Speaker 1: him claim to be tired of it, and yet he

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Speaker 1: can't help himself. He wants to keep and frankly, what

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Speaker 1: he commented on was quite disturbing. Right. He commented on

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Speaker 1: the issue of Virginia Guphrey. She of course committed suicide,

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Speaker 1: parent suicide not that long ago. She was somebody that

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Speaker 1: became an advocate for women who were sex trafficked. She

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Speaker 1: was one of the Epstein victims. And the way Donald

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Speaker 1: Trump talked about the entire situation on Air Force One

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Speaker 1: on his way back from Scotland, I think it is

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Speaker 1: proof that he does not understand the concern of his

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Speaker 1: own base on this. There was no empathy for her,

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Speaker 1: there was no empathy for the victims instead, and in

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Speaker 1: fact it was a bit jarring. Essentially, he said that

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Speaker 1: the reason he kicked Epstein out is he kept poaching employees.

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Speaker 1: He was mad that he was poaching employees. He wasn't

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Speaker 1: mad that he hired employee and sexually used her. Never

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Speaker 1: said that. Now, he did say she never had any

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Speaker 1: complaints here. But there was this weird missing empathy here

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Speaker 1: for her, for the victims in general. In fact, this

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Speaker 1: has been I think, you know, among the if you

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Speaker 1: want to just look at this from a PR perspective,

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Speaker 1: and a PR professional would be like, boy, there's there's

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Speaker 1: a million ways he could be handling this differently. But

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Speaker 1: the biggest thing that is he has not done and

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Speaker 1: it's been I think a huge It's one of those

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Speaker 1: things because he hasn't done it. Folks haven't really noticed

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Speaker 1: enough this his lack of empathy for the victims of this. Right,

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Speaker 1: imagine you're one of the women that were abused and

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Speaker 1: trafficked by Epstein and by Glenne Maxwell, and what you're

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Speaker 1: reading it's sort of you're getting re traumatized. I know,

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Speaker 1: my friend Tara Paul Marray, this has been been on

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Speaker 1: top of the story a lot. She's spoken with a

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Speaker 1: few advocates and a few direct victims here, and it

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Speaker 1: is the entire episode is re traumatizing for people, and

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Speaker 1: his lack of empathy. I think, you know, look, I

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Speaker 1: am very skeptical right of the of the there there, Right,

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Speaker 1: I think what this story is is what's out there.

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Speaker 1: I don't believe there's any extra crazy underneath that's being hit.

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Speaker 1: Obviously there's a belief that's out there all of this

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Speaker 1: sort of you know, we've gone through this, and I've

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Speaker 1: ranted about this myself about how essentially this has been

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Speaker 1: a crowd source set of of of what ifs and

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Speaker 1: beliefs that has become sort of mainstream and and I've

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Speaker 1: been disappointed in so called traditional media reporters who haven't

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Speaker 1: fully explained sort of you know, how this whole thing

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Speaker 1: got started. You know, this whole pedophilia aspect of it.

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Speaker 1: There's there's a bit of an anti Semitism roots to

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Speaker 1: this when it comes to Epstein and the belief. You know,

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Speaker 1: there's a reason that Soros and Epstein are sort of

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Speaker 1: grouped together by many of these crazy Quanon people. And

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Speaker 1: so I do think thea of the origin parts of

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Speaker 1: this sort of how did this mushroom to the situation

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Speaker 1: that we're in now, But the actual crimes themselves are bad.

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Speaker 1: What we do know is bad, and I do think

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Speaker 1: that he doesn't. He underestimates the passion in his base

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Speaker 1: they believe in a larger conspiracy, which obviously I've made

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Speaker 1: it clear how I think they've been taken for a

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Speaker 1: ride on this, and maybe some of them wanted to

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Speaker 1: be taken for a ride on this, but many of

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Speaker 1: them come at it very honestly about concern for these victims,

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Speaker 1: concern for these young women, and his lack of empathy

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Speaker 1: I do not think helps them with his own base

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Speaker 1: here it only and again right, the larger issue for

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Speaker 1: him on this, and I think why he fears this

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Speaker 1: story so much has to do with it. It makes

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Speaker 1: him part of the elites. Right. You know what makes

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Speaker 1: Jeffrey Epstein this perfect conspiracy for the for for some

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Speaker 1: of these folks in the MAGA right is that he's

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Speaker 1: in their minds, this is symbolic of sort of elitism,

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Speaker 1: that somehow it's elites that do this, that they have

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Speaker 1: no regard for people in lower classes and will just

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Speaker 1: use them for sex or use them for work or

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Speaker 1: whatever it is. And so there there's a bit of

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Speaker 1: a Trump doesn't want to be seen as he was

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Speaker 1: supposed to be the truth teller. He's the one that

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Speaker 1: was going to take it to the elites. He's the

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Speaker 1: one that was going to expose the elites. And if

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Speaker 1: he is seen as being somebody who party with the

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Speaker 1: man who moved so easily in the world of finance,

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Speaker 1: in the world of politics, all because he had this,

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Speaker 1: you know, he offered all these free plane rides and

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Speaker 1: free this and free that, and always you know, made

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Speaker 1: sure all of his guests were surrounded by beautiful women,

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Speaker 1: like you know, he was creating like he was some

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Speaker 1: sort of you know, some some sort of cartoon Harem Sarah,

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Speaker 1: a type of some sort. And Trump is petrified of

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Speaker 1: that truth, right of that of of sort of you know,

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Speaker 1: this is the total moment right where where that That's

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Speaker 1: really what these files are simply going to do, is like, oh,

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Speaker 1: Donald Trump was one of his best friends and one

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Speaker 1: of his most frequent pals. Does it mean that there's

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Speaker 1: any criminality here, No, but it gets at two things, right,

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Speaker 1: and this is what this reaction. And I think the

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Speaker 1: door that he opened here in his lack of compassion

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Speaker 1: for Virginia Guffrey in particular, is that, uh, he doesn't

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Speaker 1: see the victims. He sees himself as a victim of

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Speaker 1: this story, but he doesn't see the actual victims. And

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Speaker 1: not seeing them, I think is Look, the President has

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Speaker 1: always appeared to lack an empathetic gene. It doesn't come

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Speaker 1: naturally to him on some of these things. At other

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Speaker 1: times he can come across extraordinarily empathetic. Right, He's very

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Speaker 1: moved by television images, and it actually you know, if

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Speaker 1: he is looking, if he really wants and this is

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Speaker 1: free advice because I think this is just a good

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Speaker 1: idea for the United States of America. But if he

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Speaker 1: really wants to turn the page in this story, then

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Speaker 1: go and move the United States government to lead the

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Speaker 1: world in essentially saying, Israel, step aside, we are going

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Speaker 1: to come in. The cavalry is coming, the United States

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Speaker 1: military is coming, the American Red Cross is coming, and

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Speaker 1: step aside. And if Hamas does anything to threaten the

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Speaker 1: ability of the United States government to feed hungry Palestinians,

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Speaker 1: they're going to be met. They're going to be met

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Speaker 1: with a very tough response. Obviously you know what that is.

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Speaker 1: But the point is is that at this point, I

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Speaker 1: think you want to talk about a moment that would

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Speaker 1: make critics say, well, good for him. That would make

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Speaker 1: that would probably unite most of the Western world, who

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Speaker 1: are extraordinarily uncomfortable watching what's going on right now, longtime

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Speaker 1: supporters of Israel, not liking how bib Netna who is

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Speaker 1: using his own political necessities for survival as a way

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Speaker 1: to punish Palestinians, and the opportunity here and again to

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Speaker 1: be totally cynical about it. You want to you want

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Speaker 1: to bury your Epstein story, send in the cavalry to

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Speaker 1: go feed Palestinians in Gaza and do it. Now. Who's

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Speaker 1: gonna Who's going to push back at the US government

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Speaker 1: if it comes in mightily right? This is it is

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Speaker 1: it is if you care about the future of Israel,

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Speaker 1: this is what you'd be doing, mister president, if you

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Speaker 1: cared about the future of America's of American exceptionalism. And

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Speaker 1: maybe he doesn't care about that, but I think it

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Speaker 1: matters a lot. If you want to be a righteous superpower,

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Speaker 1: you do this move. So he could, for totally cynical

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Speaker 1: pr reasons, it would help him, It would it would

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Speaker 1: unite the world in a positive way. Yes, it would

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Speaker 1: put bb in a corner, but perhaps he needs to

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Speaker 1: be put in a corner right now. Look, he is

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Speaker 1: not popular in his own country, right, He's sort of

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Speaker 1: this necessity that many Israelis view with him. It's sort

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Speaker 1: of like, you know, kind of like the Jack Nicholson

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Speaker 1: character and a few good men, you don't you know

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Speaker 1: that Israeli sort of view him as well. I will,

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Speaker 1: We'll put him on this wall for now, and that's

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Speaker 1: what we're going to do. But this would be the

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Speaker 1: type of big gesture. This sort of fits. Trump wants

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Speaker 1: to be seen. He wants this Nobel Peace prize. This

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Speaker 1: is this is an interesting step that would actually perhaps

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Speaker 1: get him, get him applause and corners he doesn't normally get.

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Speaker 1: And we know he cares about that stuff. He's moved

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Speaker 1: by the pictures. So as much as he lacks all

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Speaker 1: of this empathy in the Epstein case, he has shown

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Speaker 1: some empathy for what he has seen in the pictures

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Speaker 1: he has seen. He certainly doesn't want to be associated

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Speaker 1: not helping starving children. It is this is a I

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Speaker 1: think it would be a morale boost for a lot

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Speaker 1: of Americans left and right, A rare unifying moment for

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Speaker 1: the world, and a rare unifying moment for the country.

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Speaker 1: And I think there's plenty of pro Israel supporters. Nobody's

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Speaker 1: going to criticize him for wanting to go in there

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Speaker 1: and just say, look, Israel's not handling this. Hamas is

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Speaker 1: not forget it, Get the un out of the way,

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Speaker 1: Get everybody out of the way. Here comes the cavalry,

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Speaker 1: you know, And it would am I feeding into Trump's

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Speaker 1: ego And this one, you're gosh darn right, because sometimes

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Speaker 1: it's and this is sort of and this gets it

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Speaker 1: to another story I want to get to in a minute,

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Speaker 1: which is, you know, how do you how do you

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Speaker 1: maneuver in the Trump era? If you are uncomfortable with

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Speaker 1: the character literally the character and the morals of the

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Speaker 1: person in the White House? Can you do you never

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Speaker 1: work with them at all because you believe they're immoral

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Speaker 1: and have low character, right? Or do you do what

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Speaker 1: you can to get things done. I'm somebody who views

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Speaker 1: that civilization invented the idea of politics so we could

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Speaker 1: settle disputes without violence. Right. Politics wasn't meant to be

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Speaker 1: I'm right, you're wrong, right. Political decisions were meant to

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Speaker 1: be sort of uncomfortable at times, compromises sort of you

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Speaker 1: sort of incrementally get to a place where not everybody

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Speaker 1: is unhappy, where you can have people leave in peace

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Speaker 1: if you will. Right, That is what politics at its

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Speaker 1: best is supposed to do, which is why you shouldn't

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Speaker 1: expect an outcome to be one hundred percent of what

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Speaker 1: you want. If you're getting one hundred percent of what

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Speaker 1: you want and you're probably living in a you're probably

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Speaker 1: on one side of an authoritarian regime. To be frank

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Speaker 1: at a lot of times, you know, all of these

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Speaker 1: maneuvers should be you know, sort of incremental and motivated

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Speaker 1: and inspired by compromise. And so it is, this is

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Speaker 1: one of those moments where he I think there's an opportunity.

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Speaker 1: I think that there are plenty of people in the

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Speaker 1: magabase that are uncomfortable with what they're seeing. There's certainly

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Speaker 1: plenty of people in the center that are uncomfortable with

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Speaker 1: what they're seeing. I mean, you see it in the polling.

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Speaker 1: We're down to thirty percent supporting what Israel is doing

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Speaker 1: at this point. So it is it is a very

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Speaker 1: uncomon and whatever our numbers are, remember we're the most

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Speaker 1: arguably the most pro Israel Western country there is as

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Speaker 1: far as the population's concerned, which means everywhere. So what's

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Speaker 1: in the best interest of Israel solving this problem? And

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Speaker 1: if they can't do it. As Israel's chief protector, the

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Speaker 1: United States government should just shove them aside, shove aside

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Speaker 1: the UN, which never seems to be able to get

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Speaker 1: anything done. Over there, dare Hamas to attack the United

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Speaker 1: States military. Trust me, they won't. You'll have the Gulf

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Speaker 1: States helping to pay for this, for gosh sakes. And

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Speaker 1: send in the cavalry if you're looking. And again, if

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Speaker 1: you're looking for a cheap political boost, mister President, this

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Speaker 1: might be the easiest one to do and one where

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Speaker 1: you'd have a hard time finding many critics. The one

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Speaker 1: person you may tick off is bb Net now. And

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Speaker 1: I don't know how many people feel comfortable sidling up

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Speaker 1: to him right now as a political ally, no matter

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Speaker 1: how pro Israel you are, because he's made it awfully difficult,

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Speaker 1: awfully difficult to defend the actions of this Israeli government.

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Speaker 1: And as I've pointed out, you can be pro Israel

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Speaker 1: and you can be critical of of Baby. It's just

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Speaker 1: like here in America. I assume everybody listening to this

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Speaker 1: podcast that's an American citizen. This loves this country, but

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Speaker 1: doesn't always love the government. And that's what being an

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Speaker 1: American sometimes is all about. Well, it's the same mindset

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Speaker 1: for American Jews, for israelis you name it when it

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Speaker 1: comes to Israel. So that would be one way to

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Speaker 1: solve his pr nightmare of Epstein, since he doesn't like

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Speaker 1: since clearly he's petrified of the truth. I've told you earlier.

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Speaker 1: I think if he would, you know, the the uh

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Speaker 1: he has made any sort of evidence that Trump was

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Speaker 1: friendly with Epstein Newsworthy because he's tried so hard to

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Speaker 1: deny connections and sort of deny further involvement with him,

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Speaker 1: and then when he does confirm it, he does it callously.

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Speaker 1: He does it in this he was poaching my employees.

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Speaker 1: So he's got He clearly is not thinking straight on this.

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Speaker 1: And if your job in the White House is to

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Speaker 1: try to be it, well, what's in the President's best

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Speaker 1: interest is to change the subject. What's in America's best

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Speaker 1: interest is might be to go solve this Gaza humanitarian

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Speaker 1: crisis right now and send in the cavalry. Shove bb

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Speaker 1: aside for the time being. Der Hamas and feed these

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Speaker 1: hungry Palestinians go do you know, go damn it, go

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Speaker 1: ahead and embrace playing hero ball whatever you want to

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Speaker 1: call it. But it's the right thing to do, and

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Speaker 1: it might actually benefit him short term politically. I want

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Speaker 1: to move to another topic that that popped up. Like

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Speaker 1: I said, it sort of feeds into this, and it's this.

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Speaker 1: It goes to this idea of if, if you're if

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Speaker 1: you're so outraged by how Donald Trump has behaved as president,

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Speaker 1: behaved in the White House, all of those things, what

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Speaker 1: happens when you agree with him every once in a while.

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Speaker 1: What happens when you need him to sign a bill

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Speaker 1: that you'd like to see pass? Well, an interesting debate

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Speaker 1: broke out in the US Senate earlier this week between

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Speaker 1: Corey Booker and Amy Klobershar and Cafrin Cortez Masto. Now,

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Speaker 1: let's what's interesting about this fight. Is it basically Corey

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Speaker 1: Booker said he was upset that there was going to

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Speaker 1: be this unanimous consent for this, for this, for this

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Speaker 1: one bill. And he says, I say we stand, I

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Speaker 1: say we fight, I say we reject this. When will

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Speaker 1: we stand and fight this president? When are we going

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Speaker 1: to stand up as a body and defend our work,

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Speaker 1: defend our jurisdiction, defend the co equal branch of government.

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Speaker 1: But he was he was pushing back onto his Democratic colleagues.

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Speaker 1: So Captin Cortez Master replied, unlike many of my colleagues,

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Speaker 1: I've won tough races in a swing stage. She's from Nevada,

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Speaker 1: he's from New Jersey. Just standing up to Trump isn't

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Speaker 1: about long speeches, referring to the Booker, the Booker filibuster speech.

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Speaker 1: It's about winning and then legislating and getting stuff done

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Speaker 1: for the American people. So, look it is. This was

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Speaker 1: over a unanimous consent for a package. It was listened

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Speaker 1: a bunch of policing bills, one that would have reauthorized

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Speaker 1: support for mental health services for law enforcement officers, another

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Speaker 1: to make recruits eligible for funding for training programs. So

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Speaker 1: it was really one of those bills that there's like

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Speaker 1: ninety percent support for, right and it goes back and forth,

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Speaker 1: and look, it was interesting. Things got a little heated

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Speaker 1: because it all took place on the Senate floor, so

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Speaker 1: everybody got to see it. If you're a c Span watcher,

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Speaker 1: you already know what happened in the back and forth,

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Speaker 1: and then it got big personal. Right, Amy Klobashar stepped in,

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Speaker 1: She's a co sponsored one of the measures, and she

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Speaker 1: made a point to say to Corey Booker, hey, you

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Speaker 1: didn't make one of the committee meetings where members debated

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Speaker 1: this legislation and then it was voted unanimously on to

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Speaker 1: move to the Senate floor. Well, Booker got his backup.

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Speaker 1: Don't question my integrity, don't question my motives. I'm standing

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Speaker 1: for Jersey, I'm standing for my police officers. I'm standing

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Speaker 1: for the Constitution. I'm standing for what's right. And dear God,

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Speaker 1: if you want to come at me that way, you're

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Speaker 1: going to have to take it up with me. There's

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Speaker 1: too much on the line right now in America. So

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Speaker 1: this is what's interesting about this dispute between Klobashar and

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Speaker 1: Cortes Mastow, sort of what you might call the center

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Speaker 1: left wing of the Democratic Party and Corey Booker, who's

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Speaker 1: a bit more in touch with both the base of

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Speaker 1: the mainstream wing of the Democratic Party and the progressive

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Speaker 1: wing of the Democratic Party. Number One, if you had

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Speaker 1: any doubt if Corey Booker wants to run for president,

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Speaker 1: leave no doubt here, right, Corey Booker and Gavin Newsom,

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Speaker 1: more than any two other people who have national ambitions,

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Speaker 1: have tried to find ways to really look like they're

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Speaker 1: taking it to Trump. Now they haven't. Most of it's

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Speaker 1: been symbolic, right, most of it hasn't had much teeth,

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Speaker 1: like the filibuster, which is the point Cortez Mastow made

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Speaker 1: at the same time half the country wanted him as president.

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Speaker 1: And you're Captaine Cortez Master, You're going to be clobashar.

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Speaker 1: We're in Minnesota, all right, this is a state that's

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Speaker 1: on the vert right. The eighth state. Uh. You know,

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Speaker 1: we have seven swing states. Number eight is probably Minnesota.

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Speaker 1: And they've you know, they've got to win reelection, and

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Speaker 1: they view it that they've got to win over some trumpvoters.

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Speaker 1: Amy Klobish are won reelection with Trump voters. That's not

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Speaker 1: lost on her. Cavin Cortez Master won her election while

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Speaker 1: Donald Trump carried the state. So it is it is

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Speaker 1: the sort of the necessity, right. Uh. And and this

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Speaker 1: is a debate among those that are in swing districts

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Speaker 1: and swing states who say, hey, I gotta I gotta

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Speaker 1: work with him on some of these things, or I

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Speaker 1: certainly can't campaign against him on some of these things.

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Speaker 1: If I can, if you want me in the fight,

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Speaker 1: you want the majority versus those in the base who

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Speaker 1: are so angry, right, and they just you know, they

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Speaker 1: want to pound their fists on the table, They want

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Speaker 1: to punch a hole in the wall, you know. But

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Speaker 1: history says none of that ever matters, Right, What matters

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Speaker 1: is if you're if you're in your available in the moment,

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Speaker 1: when you have power, do you know how to use it? Now?

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Speaker 1: This is part of Corey Booker's critique, and I think

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Speaker 1: that this is a very fair debate. Hey, do you

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Speaker 1: use your power when you have it? And have they

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Speaker 1: figured out? There's no doubt Democrats haven't figured out how

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Speaker 1: to challenge Donald Trump beyond the about the only place

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Speaker 1: they've had any success is the interest groups that file lawsuits. Right.

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Speaker 1: The interest groups have had a ton of success slowing

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Speaker 1: down some of these Trump initiatives. But the elected Democrats

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Speaker 1: have had no problem, have had no impact whatsoever. They

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Speaker 1: certainly have made supporters feel good, right Corey Booker with

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Speaker 1: his long filibuster. Certainly King Jeffries did a similar thing.

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Speaker 1: And it's one of those it feels good in the moment,

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Speaker 1: but did it actually accomplish anything down the road? Right?

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Speaker 1: And I just highlight this because I think this is

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Speaker 1: going to be at the heart of a debate that

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Speaker 1: you're going to see a little bit in twenty six

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Speaker 1: and a lot in twenty eight, right. And I do

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Speaker 1: think you're going to have a Democratic primary electorate looking

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Speaker 1: for somebody fresh and looking for somebody that hasn't had

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Speaker 1: to make these uncomfortable compromises. So I do think being

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Speaker 1: And so when I look at what Corey Booker's doing,

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Speaker 1: if I'm looking at it just through a tactical lens,

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Speaker 1: he's trying to distance himself from Washington Democrats. He's trying

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Speaker 1: to say, hey, I've been trying to get them to fight,

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Speaker 1: and they won't do it. Now. The problem I think

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Speaker 1: he's going to have is I just don't know if

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Speaker 1: he's ever going to look as much of an out

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Speaker 1: as an elected senator. Is he going to be considered

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Speaker 1: more of an outsider than Bernie Sanders? Is he going

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Speaker 1: to be considered more of an outsider than Congresswoman Alexandria

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Speaker 1: Cassio Cortez. And that's my frankly, Is he going to

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Speaker 1: look like more of an outsider than Gavenus, Right, if

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Speaker 1: you believe it's Washington Democrats or the Washington establishment. Right,

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Speaker 1: this is what harmed Hillary Clinton in two thousand and eight. Right,

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Speaker 1: She was there for a lot of uncomfortable compromises that

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Speaker 1: Democrats had to do in the moment. Right. The decision

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Speaker 1: by many of them to support the Iraq War was

428
00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:19,960
Speaker 1: totally political, and they feared having it weaponized against them,

429
00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:23,040
Speaker 1: and so they did it defensively in many cases. Right.

430
00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:25,880
Speaker 1: But it came back to haunt her, and it's why

431
00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:28,600
Speaker 1: she never became president. It haunted her in oh eight,

432
00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:31,680
Speaker 1: and I think it haunted her again in sixteen. Obama

433
00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:34,399
Speaker 1: had the luxury of never having to be confronted with

434
00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:38,959
Speaker 1: that vote, and luckily he somebody recorded him speaking out

435
00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:41,160
Speaker 1: against the Iraq War in two thousand and two. I've

436
00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:43,480
Speaker 1: often wondered, you want to talk about the ultimate butterfly

437
00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:46,080
Speaker 1: effect if you know, what if that tree fell in

438
00:25:46,119 --> 00:25:47,840
Speaker 1: the forest and no one was there to record it.

439
00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:51,040
Speaker 1: But that tree fell in a forest and somebody had

440
00:25:51,040 --> 00:25:53,879
Speaker 1: a recorder on and you heard Barack Obama making a

441
00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:56,840
Speaker 1: very cogent case against the Iraq War at a time

442
00:25:57,000 --> 00:25:59,639
Speaker 1: when there weren't many Democrats making a coaching case in

443
00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:03,080
Speaker 1: the Iraq War, So it was it was a clarifying moment.

444
00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:05,919
Speaker 1: So I look at this through two lenses. One is

445
00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:10,080
Speaker 1: I think this is an important sort of It's almost

446
00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:13,160
Speaker 1: like an early skirmish, and what is coming in this

447
00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:17,200
Speaker 1: democratic civil war? You know, hopefully it is emphasis on

448
00:26:17,240 --> 00:26:20,840
Speaker 1: the word civil. But I think this debate is real.

449
00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:23,639
Speaker 1: How do you confront Trump? Do you know how to

450
00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:26,159
Speaker 1: do it? What did you do to do right? You

451
00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:28,840
Speaker 1: could just picture all of these questions in a twenty

452
00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:33,560
Speaker 1: seven and twenty eight presidential campaign primary season. I don't

453
00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:35,240
Speaker 1: think we're going to, you know, do I think we'll

454
00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:38,600
Speaker 1: see a few of these things in Democratic primaries in

455
00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:41,800
Speaker 1: twenty six when there is an occasion to have a

456
00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:46,040
Speaker 1: Washington based Democrat versus a non Washington based Democrat. Michigan

457
00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:49,960
Speaker 1: Senate might be one of those primaries where maybe that happens.

458
00:26:50,840 --> 00:26:53,040
Speaker 1: That would probably be as high problem, and you might

459
00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:57,199
Speaker 1: see it in some primary challengers to older incumbents. What

460
00:26:57,240 --> 00:27:00,240
Speaker 1: have you done to fix the Democratic Party? What have

461
00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:04,159
Speaker 1: you done to challenge Donald Trump? So it's fascinating. I

462
00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:07,040
Speaker 1: think I don't want to say that that Booker did

463
00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:12,840
Speaker 1: everything for political theater here, but let's just say, if

464
00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:15,359
Speaker 1: he is interested in trying to run as an outsider,

465
00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:18,800
Speaker 1: this makes a lot of sense. But here's the irony.

466
00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:21,160
Speaker 1: So he stood up. He wanted to offer an amendment

467
00:27:21,440 --> 00:27:24,280
Speaker 1: to sort of, you know, send a message. But after

468
00:27:24,280 --> 00:27:26,399
Speaker 1: they had this back and forth, he stood down. The

469
00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:29,679
Speaker 1: bills passed with the unanimous consent. So if you're a

470
00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:32,760
Speaker 1: real if you really wanted to stick it to Booker,

471
00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:37,640
Speaker 1: you'd say, oh, you stood up, you lectured, and then

472
00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:42,200
Speaker 1: you back down. That's the that's the most negative way

473
00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:45,080
Speaker 1: to look at At the other end of it, it's

474
00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:48,240
Speaker 1: Booker set his piece, tried to make his point, saw

475
00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:51,840
Speaker 1: nobody was with him, and decided this wasn't the moment

476
00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:55,359
Speaker 1: to have the fight inside the Democratic Party. The point

477
00:27:55,400 --> 00:27:59,119
Speaker 1: is this fight is coming, this debate. How much do

478
00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:02,959
Speaker 1: you acknowledge what Trump represents. It's not about when you

479
00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:06,920
Speaker 1: work with Trump? Are you working with Trump? Or are

480
00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:09,880
Speaker 1: you working Are are you working on behalf of half

481
00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:14,439
Speaker 1: the country that decided to vote for him? You know.

482
00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:17,840
Speaker 1: One of my chief criticisms, particularly of Rond de Santists

483
00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:20,919
Speaker 1: in Florida and of Donald Trump as president, is he

484
00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:23,800
Speaker 1: often only governs for his supporters, that he doesn't that

485
00:28:23,880 --> 00:28:25,720
Speaker 1: he literally, I mean we've seen this. Donald Trump makes

486
00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:29,080
Speaker 1: decisions about you know, if a blue state is asking

487
00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:31,719
Speaker 1: for FEMA funds, he's less likely to give it than

488
00:28:31,760 --> 00:28:34,120
Speaker 1: if a red state is asking for FEMA funds. We've

489
00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:36,640
Speaker 1: seen rond de Santists do this. He's he's gonna He's

490
00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:38,720
Speaker 1: sitting here. He wants to do these audits of blue

491
00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:42,440
Speaker 1: counties in Florida, but he doesn't necessarily is targeting many

492
00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:44,200
Speaker 1: of the red counties. And the only red counties will

493
00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:47,360
Speaker 1: target are people that have been in his political crosss.

494
00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:52,680
Speaker 1: He clearly uses politics to decide how to govern one

495
00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:54,920
Speaker 1: hundred percent of the time. When you had a guy

496
00:28:54,960 --> 00:28:56,760
Speaker 1: like Rick Scotto when he was governor, when there was

497
00:28:56,760 --> 00:29:00,080
Speaker 1: a natural disaster, he took off the red hat. He

498
00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:02,240
Speaker 1: put out his navy hat, which for him meant he

499
00:29:02,320 --> 00:29:05,320
Speaker 1: was a Floridian first, not a partisan Republican first. So

500
00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:11,040
Speaker 1: and I think that's that's a that's the slippery slope here, right.

501
00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:15,520
Speaker 1: A Amy Klobashar and a Catherine Cortious Master are saying, hey, look,

502
00:29:15,560 --> 00:29:18,560
Speaker 1: we've got to govern. You know, we've got to govern

503
00:29:19,080 --> 00:29:22,440
Speaker 1: with the politicians that we have, not necessarily the politicians

504
00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:24,520
Speaker 1: that we want. As I've always said, I'm stuck covering

505
00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:27,040
Speaker 1: politics as it is, not as I wish it were.

506
00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:29,440
Speaker 1: Except the good news with my podcast is I get

507
00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:33,600
Speaker 1: to let you know how I thinks some ideas perhaps

508
00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:36,680
Speaker 1: of how we could be doing things. In fact, this

509
00:29:36,680 --> 00:29:41,480
Speaker 1: this sort of flotilla of humanitarian aid by the US government,

510
00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:45,040
Speaker 1: I think is such a no brainer. I think there

511
00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:47,480
Speaker 1: should be a clamor for it. If the Israelis won't

512
00:29:47,520 --> 00:29:50,560
Speaker 1: do it, get out of the way, Ewen doesn't want

513
00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:53,360
Speaker 1: to do it, get out of the way and get

514
00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:55,600
Speaker 1: and do that. So it gets at to this, but

515
00:29:55,720 --> 00:30:01,200
Speaker 1: this debate do you work with the politicians that you

516
00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:04,760
Speaker 1: have and how much do you just simply fight, fight,

517
00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:07,800
Speaker 1: fight all the time. What is the line? What is

518
00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:11,000
Speaker 1: it that voters want? I know what the base wants, right,

519
00:30:11,760 --> 00:30:14,280
Speaker 1: but there's a whole group of voters that decide these elections.

520
00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:17,280
Speaker 1: What do they want? And in some ways you have

521
00:30:17,320 --> 00:30:19,920
Speaker 1: some Democrats that only think about those voters. And if

522
00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:22,080
Speaker 1: you're in a swing state, I think that's how you think.

523
00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:24,560
Speaker 1: And there are some that are saying, hey, how do

524
00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:27,400
Speaker 1: I get my nomination? And you got to think about

525
00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:29,800
Speaker 1: the base, and you got to think about that the

526
00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:34,520
Speaker 1: most talented politicians figure out how to do both. And

527
00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:37,600
Speaker 1: that's what ultimately the Democratic primary campaign is going to

528
00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:45,040
Speaker 1: be about, a competition to find out is there somebody

529
00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:50,200
Speaker 1: that has the ability to do both. We shall see

530
00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:52,680
Speaker 1: a few other things I wanted to empty out of

531
00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:58,280
Speaker 1: my notebook that I think God overlooked. One the decision

532
00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:00,560
Speaker 1: by the President of the United States not to grant

533
00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:02,720
Speaker 1: the President of Taiwan, or I think it was the

534
00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:06,320
Speaker 1: vice president of Taiwan nor the president of Taiwan. He

535
00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:08,000
Speaker 1: wanted to stop in New York on his way to

536
00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:13,640
Speaker 1: a few of the countries that do recognize Taiwan as China,

537
00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:16,440
Speaker 1: and he wouldn't let him do it. Right. We're in

538
00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:20,360
Speaker 1: the middle of these negotiations with China on trade. They're

539
00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:24,320
Speaker 1: very sensitive. Obviously, he's very nervous about it, and he

540
00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:26,520
Speaker 1: doesn't want to postpone the ability to have that because

541
00:31:26,520 --> 00:31:32,040
Speaker 1: that would have huge consequences on the economy. But it's

542
00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:37,880
Speaker 1: a reminder, you know, I've often wondered, will there be

543
00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:43,800
Speaker 1: clean you sell America on going to war with China

544
00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:48,200
Speaker 1: on behalf of Taiwan. Look at how much you know,

545
00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:50,840
Speaker 1: look at how difficult it's been at times to rally

546
00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:54,960
Speaker 1: America just to send money and weapons to Ukraine. We

547
00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:58,000
Speaker 1: have yet to send a boot on the ground. So

548
00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:01,480
Speaker 1: I think this is a reminder that at least this

549
00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:08,920
Speaker 1: president is it going to poke the China bear, at

550
00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:13,120
Speaker 1: least perhaps just just right now. But this does, this

551
00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:17,640
Speaker 1: does send an uncomfortable message to Taiwan and unfortunately may

552
00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:20,600
Speaker 1: cost them more as they've been trying to build more

553
00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:24,000
Speaker 1: allies around the world, and so many countries want to

554
00:32:24,040 --> 00:32:26,720
Speaker 1: do have to do business with China that they've in

555
00:32:26,760 --> 00:32:29,120
Speaker 1: many ways been some of them have been coerced to

556
00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:34,920
Speaker 1: withdraw their recognition of Taiwan due to one would argue

557
00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:38,880
Speaker 1: sort of financial coercion by China. This decision by the president.

558
00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:41,800
Speaker 1: If you're an advocate for free Taiwan, if you're an

559
00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:46,760
Speaker 1: advocate for their independence, this decision was not a good idea.

560
00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:52,360
Speaker 1: It was not good for those folks. It was not

561
00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:58,560
Speaker 1: good for those worried about China at some point perhaps

562
00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:03,320
Speaker 1: take over Taiwan without firing a shop. That's always been

563
00:33:03,320 --> 00:33:07,640
Speaker 1: the biggest fear that some on this issue have had.

564
00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:09,280
Speaker 1: One more thing that I wanted to bring up that

565
00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:10,720
Speaker 1: I didn't get a chance to, and I meant to

566
00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:14,200
Speaker 1: a couple of episodes ago. You know, there's a lot

567
00:33:14,200 --> 00:33:18,680
Speaker 1: of people playing clean up with their audiences, right, if

568
00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:21,520
Speaker 1: you were a MAGA influencer and you've been drifting off

569
00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:25,719
Speaker 1: of conspiracy theories and sort of misleading people into thinking

570
00:33:25,800 --> 00:33:28,640
Speaker 1: stuff that's happening that wasn't happening. Oh, like you're the

571
00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:31,800
Speaker 1: deputy director of the FBI, now, Dan Bongino, you're really

572
00:33:31,840 --> 00:33:37,040
Speaker 1: worried about your bona fides with the conspiratorial right. So

573
00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:41,360
Speaker 1: he's had some struggles, right explaining why they went out

574
00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:43,760
Speaker 1: there saying there's no there there in Epstein after spending

575
00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:48,040
Speaker 1: years stirring up an audience claiming that there's some hidden files.

576
00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:50,200
Speaker 1: And of course he gets in here, so he has

577
00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:53,160
Speaker 1: you know, he didn't he told people not to trust

578
00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:55,480
Speaker 1: the government. Now that he's the government, he's begging them

579
00:33:55,520 --> 00:33:58,760
Speaker 1: to trust him. And guess what, people don't trust him. Well,

580
00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:02,600
Speaker 1: he put out a tweet over the weekend that was

581
00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:06,240
Speaker 1: the most McCarthy esque tweet I've seen anybody in government do.

582
00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:10,840
Speaker 1: This was very much Trump trumpion when, especially if you

583
00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:13,200
Speaker 1: go back to the days of Donald Trump and Burtherism,

584
00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:15,560
Speaker 1: when you used to claim you won't believe what my

585
00:34:15,600 --> 00:34:18,840
Speaker 1: investigators are finding. What they find and can't say you

586
00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:22,799
Speaker 1: won't believe. Here's is I want to read you these

587
00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:25,440
Speaker 1: direct quotes. This is from a tweet he put out

588
00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:29,560
Speaker 1: on x and he says the following. During my tenure

589
00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:31,920
Speaker 1: here as the Deputy Director of the FBI, I've repeatedly

590
00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:34,480
Speaker 1: related to you that things are happening that might not

591
00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:38,320
Speaker 1: be immediately visible, but they are happening. The Director and

592
00:34:38,360 --> 00:34:40,920
Speaker 1: I are committed to stamping out public corruption and the

593
00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:45,440
Speaker 1: political weaponization of both law enforcement and intelligence operations. It

594
00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:48,200
Speaker 1: is a priority for us. But what I have learned

595
00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:52,480
Speaker 1: in the course of our properly predicated and necessary investigations

596
00:34:52,520 --> 00:34:57,200
Speaker 1: into these aforementioned matters has shocked me down to my core.

597
00:34:57,719 --> 00:35:00,440
Speaker 1: We cannot run a republic like this. I'll be the

598
00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:03,239
Speaker 1: same after learning what I've learned. We are going to

599
00:35:03,320 --> 00:35:06,040
Speaker 1: conduct these righteous and proper investigations by the book, in

600
00:35:06,080 --> 00:35:07,880
Speaker 1: accordance with the law. We are going to get the

601
00:35:07,920 --> 00:35:10,720
Speaker 1: answers we all deserve. As with any investigation, I cannot

602
00:35:10,719 --> 00:35:12,880
Speaker 1: predict where it will land, but I can promise you

603
00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:15,840
Speaker 1: an honest and dignified effort at truth. Not my truth

604
00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:20,560
Speaker 1: or your truth, but the truth. Huh. Now, if you're

605
00:35:20,560 --> 00:35:25,080
Speaker 1: asking yourself what is he talking about? I read you

606
00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:29,279
Speaker 1: the entire thing. I have no idea what he's talking about.

607
00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:33,080
Speaker 1: Maybe there's some secret QAnon code that you This is

608
00:35:33,120 --> 00:35:36,240
Speaker 1: the most you won't believe. I hold in my hand

609
00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:40,560
Speaker 1: a list of communist sympathizers. Can we see the list?

610
00:35:40,640 --> 00:35:44,520
Speaker 1: I hold it in my hand and he never shows

611
00:35:44,560 --> 00:35:50,840
Speaker 1: the list. This is McCarthyism. One oh one. The deputy

612
00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:54,600
Speaker 1: director of the FBI, using the power of his office

613
00:35:55,120 --> 00:36:02,440
Speaker 1: to claim, let me quote him, shocked me to go

614
00:36:02,640 --> 00:36:05,920
Speaker 1: down to my core. And you can't say what it is?

615
00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:09,560
Speaker 2: What is it?

616
00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:13,840
Speaker 1: Is there even a specific subject you're referring to. Is

617
00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:17,279
Speaker 1: it a specific person? Is it a specific entity? Are

618
00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:20,120
Speaker 1: you just letting people use their imagination so they take

619
00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:22,439
Speaker 1: what you say and say, Aha, this must be about

620
00:36:22,640 --> 00:36:26,560
Speaker 1: X or this must be about why. Aha. And it

621
00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:29,080
Speaker 1: allows right the Charlie Kirks of the world to dine

622
00:36:29,080 --> 00:36:31,520
Speaker 1: out on this. See, look what they're finding in the

623
00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:35,799
Speaker 1: deep State. What are they finding? They found nothing? If

624
00:36:35,800 --> 00:36:40,120
Speaker 1: they again, we all know this, if there's something out

625
00:36:40,160 --> 00:36:44,680
Speaker 1: there that's huge, nobody's going to set out it. You know,

626
00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:48,200
Speaker 1: this is this is where you know suddenly there's this

627
00:36:48,520 --> 00:36:51,960
Speaker 1: renewed interest that like there may be something more that

628
00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:55,600
Speaker 1: Gallainne Maxwell can say, Well, at this point, she's just

629
00:36:55,640 --> 00:36:57,439
Speaker 1: trying to get out of jail, so she'll say whatever

630
00:36:57,480 --> 00:36:59,359
Speaker 1: it takes to get out of jail. But ask me,

631
00:36:59,560 --> 00:37:03,600
Speaker 1: ask your of this. If she had something to negotiate with,

632
00:37:03,719 --> 00:37:08,799
Speaker 1: why didn't she do it the first time? I'm just

633
00:37:08,840 --> 00:37:14,040
Speaker 1: asking questions, right, But again I just plead with people,

634
00:37:14,160 --> 00:37:17,600
Speaker 1: use your common sense, right, and this is it is cleared.

635
00:37:17,680 --> 00:37:23,480
Speaker 1: Dan Bongino is afraid that his conspiratorial following fears he's

636
00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:26,879
Speaker 1: gone gone to the dark side. Right, in this case,

637
00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:30,359
Speaker 1: the dark side is reality, but the fear he's gone

638
00:37:30,440 --> 00:37:33,200
Speaker 1: to reality, and he's trying to say, no, no, no, no, no,

639
00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:38,080
Speaker 1: don't worry. What I have found in these investigations that

640
00:37:38,239 --> 00:37:42,640
Speaker 1: no I can't tell you about shock me to my core.

641
00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:45,160
Speaker 1: But I'm not going to say a word on it.

642
00:37:45,320 --> 00:37:50,920
Speaker 1: This is this is absolutely horrendous rhetoric. It is abuse

643
00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:56,279
Speaker 1: of power in his position. It is absolutely if you're

644
00:37:56,320 --> 00:37:59,200
Speaker 1: a FBI rank and foul member, this is just so.

645
00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:04,160
Speaker 1: I mean, Unfortunately, now, I don't blame people if they

646
00:38:04,200 --> 00:38:06,919
Speaker 1: say an FBI agent came to their door and said,

647
00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:09,600
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I don't believe you. I can't believe anything

648
00:38:09,640 --> 00:38:12,760
Speaker 1: you say. And the amount of you know, this type

649
00:38:12,760 --> 00:38:20,799
Speaker 1: of sort of malign you know, way of speaking, you know,

650
00:38:20,920 --> 00:38:25,239
Speaker 1: conspiratorial thinking. You know, it is possible this can get

651
00:38:25,320 --> 00:38:28,319
Speaker 1: used in a courtroom two, he said, Sally questioned the

652
00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:31,399
Speaker 1: motives of the FBI, questioned the motives of an investigation,

653
00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:35,200
Speaker 1: question a lot of things, but he is clearly you know.

654
00:38:35,280 --> 00:38:38,120
Speaker 1: This to me reads like somebody who made a fortune

655
00:38:38,160 --> 00:38:42,880
Speaker 1: being a grifter on bullshit is petrified that his audience

656
00:38:43,040 --> 00:38:45,919
Speaker 1: that he has grifted over the years now thinks he's

657
00:38:45,960 --> 00:38:48,760
Speaker 1: a turncoat and a trader and he needed to reassure

658
00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:53,640
Speaker 1: them because perhaps he's just weeks from leaving. Perhaps he

659
00:38:53,719 --> 00:38:57,320
Speaker 1: realizes this no fund to actually have responsibility and actually

660
00:38:57,320 --> 00:39:01,320
Speaker 1: have to deal with reality, and he may enjoy making

661
00:39:01,400 --> 00:39:05,600
Speaker 1: money off of the fantasies. But this couldn't have been

662
00:39:05,600 --> 00:39:11,560
Speaker 1: more dangerous rhetoric. It's awful stuff. This When people ask

663
00:39:11,640 --> 00:39:14,160
Speaker 1: you what was the McCarthy era, Like this is how

664
00:39:14,239 --> 00:39:17,640
Speaker 1: McCarthy spoke all the time. And this is the entire

665
00:39:17,719 --> 00:39:21,000
Speaker 1: sort of witch hunt for communist sympathizers in the government.

666
00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:26,640
Speaker 1: All had this type of language, particularly people like people

667
00:39:26,680 --> 00:39:31,400
Speaker 1: like Joseph McCarthy, And this is probably the best example

668
00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:36,760
Speaker 1: of McCarthyism yet coming out of the law enforcement community.

669
00:39:36,800 --> 00:39:40,160
Speaker 1: This is just so damaging the law enforcement. This is why,

670
00:39:40,440 --> 00:39:43,319
Speaker 1: by the way, the President has had no ability to

671
00:39:43,520 --> 00:39:47,720
Speaker 1: reassure people that they're telling the truth because he politicized

672
00:39:47,840 --> 00:39:50,800
Speaker 1: the Justice Department and he politicized the FBI by putting

673
00:39:51,120 --> 00:39:57,040
Speaker 1: these conspiracy theorists into the job. They made some early

674
00:39:57,120 --> 00:40:01,759
Speaker 1: promises to their followers. Reality shows that they don't have

675
00:40:02,080 --> 00:40:04,960
Speaker 1: the goods, and now they're embarrassed to admit that they

676
00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:07,239
Speaker 1: never had the goods. They can't do that, can they.

677
00:40:07,960 --> 00:40:12,040
Speaker 1: So instead, you get it, You get what Bongino's doing here,

678
00:40:12,080 --> 00:40:16,080
Speaker 1: which is, oh, this is so much bigger, don't worry.

679
00:40:16,160 --> 00:40:19,640
Speaker 1: And again there is no topic that he claims he's

680
00:40:19,640 --> 00:40:27,600
Speaker 1: investigating here, just general weaponization. Anyway, it was shockingly irresponsible.

681
00:40:28,040 --> 00:40:29,719
Speaker 1: I don't know whether it's good or bad that this

682
00:40:29,760 --> 00:40:33,280
Speaker 1: didn't get a lot of what i'd call mainstream media.

683
00:40:33,640 --> 00:40:36,080
Speaker 1: Then again, what is the mainstream media anymore? Right at

684
00:40:36,080 --> 00:40:40,800
Speaker 1: this case, We're all a piece of the media ecosystem here,

685
00:40:41,280 --> 00:40:44,960
Speaker 1: and when you look at the numbers, perhaps I'm speaking

686
00:40:44,960 --> 00:40:46,480
Speaker 1: on a medium that's a hell of a lot more

687
00:40:46,520 --> 00:40:51,520
Speaker 1: mainstream than some of the mediums I used to work for. Anyway,

688
00:40:51,560 --> 00:40:54,040
Speaker 1: I just that Bongino thing had been sort of been

689
00:40:54,080 --> 00:40:56,560
Speaker 1: eating at me. I was like, Oh, I forgot I

690
00:40:56,600 --> 00:40:58,279
Speaker 1: forgot to get it done. Damn it, I forgot to

691
00:40:58,320 --> 00:40:59,800
Speaker 1: get it that. Damn it, I forgot to get it that.

692
00:41:02,160 --> 00:41:04,520
Speaker 1: So they're adding it is it is, it really is,

693
00:41:05,280 --> 00:41:09,279
Speaker 1: And you know there there there are certain people that

694
00:41:09,360 --> 00:41:13,279
Speaker 1: are doing potentially huge long term damage to the rule

695
00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:16,680
Speaker 1: of law. And there's no doubt that Dan Bongino is

696
00:41:16,760 --> 00:41:19,319
Speaker 1: first or second in line of being one of the

697
00:41:19,320 --> 00:41:24,200
Speaker 1: most damaging appointees we've seen uh in in law enforcement

698
00:41:24,400 --> 00:41:28,439
Speaker 1: in a really long time. All Right, with that, let's

699
00:41:28,480 --> 00:41:32,719
Speaker 1: take a break, and like I said, uh having a

700
00:41:32,880 --> 00:41:36,360
Speaker 1: I'm a skeptic of of sort of of of rolling

701
00:41:36,360 --> 00:41:40,200
Speaker 1: out a news organization where you lean into being politically

702
00:41:40,719 --> 00:41:45,600
Speaker 1: a political lean one way or the other. But I'm

703
00:41:45,640 --> 00:41:52,080
Speaker 1: also not uh. I'm also not blind to reality and

704
00:41:52,160 --> 00:41:53,920
Speaker 1: of the world we live in. So with that, we'll

705
00:41:53,960 --> 00:41:55,879
Speaker 1: sneak in a break. When we come back to my friend,

706
00:41:56,280 --> 00:42:07,320
Speaker 1: we'll talk to my friend Terror Gap. Well, joining me

707
00:42:07,360 --> 00:42:11,319
Speaker 1: now is Tara McGowan, and Tara is somebody who's been

708
00:42:12,760 --> 00:42:18,719
Speaker 1: trying to fill the information deficited, if you will, or

709
00:42:18,880 --> 00:42:23,839
Speaker 1: misinformation problem that democrats have been dealing with. She has

710
00:42:23,920 --> 00:42:29,080
Speaker 1: started a company that has started local news organizations that

711
00:42:29,320 --> 00:42:31,719
Speaker 1: do have a progressive bent to it as a way

712
00:42:31,760 --> 00:42:36,000
Speaker 1: to try to compete against the conservative media entities that

713
00:42:36,080 --> 00:42:41,640
Speaker 1: have grown over the last decades. The movement does not

714
00:42:41,760 --> 00:42:45,640
Speaker 1: come without some controversy, including those of us in journalism

715
00:42:45,680 --> 00:42:49,200
Speaker 1: circles who are uncomfortable without I would I would say

716
00:42:49,239 --> 00:42:52,720
Speaker 1: the forward leaning political aspect of things, but these days,

717
00:42:52,719 --> 00:42:56,120
Speaker 1: when everything is blurred, I think it's a it's it's

718
00:42:56,280 --> 00:43:00,640
Speaker 1: fair to it's fair to say what's the distinction between

719
00:43:02,120 --> 00:43:08,160
Speaker 1: what Fox News does, MSNBC does, or what Tara McGowan

720
00:43:08,239 --> 00:43:12,840
Speaker 1: does or Eric Erickson does. So I'm looking forward to

721
00:43:12,840 --> 00:43:14,960
Speaker 1: having this conversation. Tara, Welcome to the podcast.

722
00:43:16,239 --> 00:43:17,319
Speaker 2: Thanks for having me check.

723
00:43:18,239 --> 00:43:22,000
Speaker 1: So, before we get into what you've been doing, give

724
00:43:22,080 --> 00:43:25,440
Speaker 1: us a little bit of your origin story. You both

725
00:43:25,560 --> 00:43:29,840
Speaker 1: were in journalism and in democratic politics. How did you

726
00:43:29,880 --> 00:43:30,759
Speaker 1: go from one to the other.

727
00:43:30,920 --> 00:43:35,240
Speaker 3: I studied political science at NY You in the investigative

728
00:43:35,320 --> 00:43:38,520
Speaker 3: news department for the Evening News I then got recruited

729
00:43:38,520 --> 00:43:41,400
Speaker 3: over to sixty minutes. I then worked full time at

730
00:43:41,400 --> 00:43:45,640
Speaker 3: sixty minutes for a few years, and then did a

731
00:43:45,680 --> 00:43:50,000
Speaker 3: little bit of frontline, PBS documentary long form journalism before

732
00:43:50,520 --> 00:43:55,640
Speaker 3: deciding to go into politics. So I was very wrapped

733
00:43:55,719 --> 00:43:57,560
Speaker 3: up in the coverage of the two thousand and eight election.

734
00:43:57,640 --> 00:43:59,360
Speaker 2: I was at sixty minutes at the time.

735
00:43:59,560 --> 00:44:05,279
Speaker 3: And I felt one that corporate media as CVS was

736
00:44:05,400 --> 00:44:06,960
Speaker 3: for all of the good there was, and there was

737
00:44:07,000 --> 00:44:09,680
Speaker 3: a lot of good there. I learned a lot about

738
00:44:09,760 --> 00:44:13,399
Speaker 3: journalism and reporting. I think sixty minutes, you know, has

739
00:44:13,440 --> 00:44:18,239
Speaker 3: a storied legacy for a very good reason. They have

740
00:44:18,320 --> 00:44:21,359
Speaker 3: done amazing journalism, and you know what we're going through

741
00:44:21,400 --> 00:44:23,520
Speaker 3: right now. I'm sure we'll talk about with CBS News

742
00:44:23,719 --> 00:44:25,880
Speaker 3: in corporate media. But I was a little bit disillusioned

743
00:44:25,880 --> 00:44:29,279
Speaker 3: by that, and I was very clear that I was

744
00:44:29,360 --> 00:44:34,480
Speaker 3: not objective, and so I wanted to I knew nothing

745
00:44:34,840 --> 00:44:38,200
Speaker 3: about government or politics. I'd never volunteered on a campaign

746
00:44:38,280 --> 00:44:39,919
Speaker 3: or anything of that nature. So I kind of felt

747
00:44:39,960 --> 00:44:41,880
Speaker 3: like I put my reporter hat on and moved to

748
00:44:41,960 --> 00:44:45,600
Speaker 3: d c cold. I ended up as a deputy press

749
00:44:45,600 --> 00:44:50,560
Speaker 3: secretary for my home state Senator Jack Reid and a

750
00:44:50,600 --> 00:44:53,279
Speaker 3: lot of his team is still there with him, and

751
00:44:53,640 --> 00:44:55,920
Speaker 3: it was an interesting senator to work for as a

752
00:44:56,440 --> 00:44:59,719
Speaker 3: as a millennial and a digital native back in nine

753
00:45:00,320 --> 00:45:04,880
Speaker 3: where Facebook was new, social media was growing, and I

754
00:45:05,000 --> 00:45:10,280
Speaker 3: still often laugh about Jack's chief of staff, Neil, who

755
00:45:10,840 --> 00:45:14,400
Speaker 3: at the time was so confused by my desire to

756
00:45:14,480 --> 00:45:15,799
Speaker 3: follow the senator.

757
00:45:15,480 --> 00:45:18,120
Speaker 2: Around with a camera and put him on social media.

758
00:45:19,200 --> 00:45:21,319
Speaker 2: And I left that job.

759
00:45:21,360 --> 00:45:25,480
Speaker 3: I got recruited onto President Obama's reelection campaign on his

760
00:45:25,520 --> 00:45:29,239
Speaker 3: digital team in Chicago. So that was the first and

761
00:45:29,440 --> 00:45:31,520
Speaker 3: the last political campaign I've ever worked on.

762
00:45:31,800 --> 00:45:34,680
Speaker 1: Actually, So what do you consider yourself these days? Are

763
00:45:34,680 --> 00:45:37,440
Speaker 1: you a journalists? Are you an entrepreneur? Are you a

764
00:45:37,480 --> 00:45:41,080
Speaker 1: democratic strategist? What hat do you choose to wear?

765
00:45:42,719 --> 00:45:45,360
Speaker 2: I'm a founder, CEO, and publisher of a media company,

766
00:45:45,840 --> 00:45:49,120
Speaker 2: one of the fastest growing media companies in the country, actually,

767
00:45:50,239 --> 00:45:53,640
Speaker 2: and I'm incredibly proud of our growth career. Turned six

768
00:45:53,719 --> 00:45:55,800
Speaker 2: years old in June.

769
00:45:56,080 --> 00:45:59,839
Speaker 3: And as you mentioned at the top, we started in

770
00:46:00,080 --> 00:46:03,840
Speaker 3: states with local online newsrooms and reporters on the ground

771
00:46:04,400 --> 00:46:07,360
Speaker 3: in six states. We've expanded to eleven and then in

772
00:46:07,400 --> 00:46:11,160
Speaker 3: twenty twenty four, we launched a national brand for a

773
00:46:11,239 --> 00:46:14,719
Speaker 3: very different audience, and that has been an absolute rocket ship,

774
00:46:15,520 --> 00:46:19,280
Speaker 3: especially among millennials and Gen Z on platforms like TikTok

775
00:46:19,360 --> 00:46:22,800
Speaker 3: and Instagram, where we are one of the biggest media

776
00:46:22,880 --> 00:46:26,000
Speaker 3: brands in terms of video views and engagement.

777
00:46:27,120 --> 00:46:30,719
Speaker 1: So you've leaned against the idea of journalistic neutrality.

778
00:46:31,000 --> 00:46:36,160
Speaker 3: Why so, I have pretty much always believed, and this

779
00:46:36,280 --> 00:46:40,160
Speaker 3: was definitely colored by my experience at CBS and other spaces,

780
00:46:40,239 --> 00:46:45,239
Speaker 3: that objectivity has always been an illusion. I think that

781
00:46:46,120 --> 00:46:50,200
Speaker 3: I think that the really really, really really old days

782
00:46:50,239 --> 00:46:53,040
Speaker 3: of old media, where you know, there were a few

783
00:46:53,080 --> 00:46:57,520
Speaker 3: trusted messengers and channels and this sort of perception of

784
00:46:57,520 --> 00:46:59,800
Speaker 3: a shared sense of truth for better and for worse,

785
00:47:00,239 --> 00:47:03,319
Speaker 3: that hasn't existed in a very long time. And I

786
00:47:03,400 --> 00:47:07,839
Speaker 3: do believe that there's a difference between being really transparent

787
00:47:08,480 --> 00:47:12,359
Speaker 3: about your values, whether those are values related to what

788
00:47:12,480 --> 00:47:18,120
Speaker 3: kind of economic system a country should have, or people

789
00:47:18,160 --> 00:47:20,720
Speaker 3: should live within a type of society, or whether they're

790
00:47:20,960 --> 00:47:25,719
Speaker 3: partisan in political or ideological. But I think that, you know,

791
00:47:26,040 --> 00:47:29,000
Speaker 3: business interests have always played a role, for better and

792
00:47:29,040 --> 00:47:32,440
Speaker 3: for worse in media, even that claims neutrality, and so

793
00:47:32,560 --> 00:47:35,640
Speaker 3: I think that's really deceiving, and I think one of

794
00:47:35,680 --> 00:47:40,440
Speaker 3: the reasons that the majority of people in this country

795
00:47:40,760 --> 00:47:45,880
Speaker 3: no longer trust media or institutions is because they feel

796
00:47:45,880 --> 00:47:48,200
Speaker 3: like they've been sold a false bag of goods in

797
00:47:48,239 --> 00:47:53,160
Speaker 3: certain ways. And I do believe that, you know, there's

798
00:47:53,200 --> 00:47:55,120
Speaker 3: a lot of bad I've heard you talk about it.

799
00:47:55,160 --> 00:47:57,160
Speaker 3: I think we have a lot of actual common ground

800
00:47:57,360 --> 00:48:00,960
Speaker 3: on the flattening of the information ecosystem, fracturing of it,

801
00:48:01,640 --> 00:48:08,239
Speaker 3: the really dangerous environment that's been created by unregulated tech

802
00:48:08,280 --> 00:48:11,880
Speaker 3: companies that are now actually the owners of the information

803
00:48:12,000 --> 00:48:16,600
Speaker 3: distribution channels we all rely on and spend our time on.

804
00:48:17,840 --> 00:48:21,560
Speaker 3: But I do think that there is a silver lining

805
00:48:21,800 --> 00:48:24,799
Speaker 3: in sort of the democratization of media, where there is

806
00:48:25,800 --> 00:48:27,960
Speaker 3: a lot of media that's owned by different people in

807
00:48:28,000 --> 00:48:32,080
Speaker 3: their self selection, where people want to trust people who.

808
00:48:31,920 --> 00:48:34,160
Speaker 2: Are honest and transparent about where they stand.

809
00:48:34,200 --> 00:48:36,160
Speaker 3: I think that's true in politics, and I think it's

810
00:48:36,200 --> 00:48:39,480
Speaker 3: true in media, and so I think that the gold

811
00:48:39,600 --> 00:48:45,600
Speaker 3: standard of quality journalism is actually about transparency. Transparency about

812
00:48:45,600 --> 00:48:49,800
Speaker 3: who your investors are, who your advertisers are, who funds

813
00:48:49,840 --> 00:48:52,320
Speaker 3: your work, Transparency about your values.

814
00:48:53,160 --> 00:48:54,040
Speaker 2: We even bring that.

815
00:48:54,120 --> 00:48:57,200
Speaker 3: We encourage our reporters to be really honest about their

816
00:48:57,320 --> 00:49:03,120
Speaker 3: lived experiences. So then your audio gets to actually decide right.

817
00:49:03,200 --> 00:49:07,239
Speaker 2: And I've really found that people are more likely to trust.

818
00:49:06,960 --> 00:49:09,439
Speaker 3: You even if they don't just even if they don't

819
00:49:09,440 --> 00:49:13,120
Speaker 3: agree with you on something, if you're upfront and honest

820
00:49:13,160 --> 00:49:15,719
Speaker 3: about where you stand. And I think that's how we

821
00:49:15,760 --> 00:49:19,880
Speaker 3: can create a really vibrant and diversified media ecosystem, is

822
00:49:20,320 --> 00:49:23,799
Speaker 3: everybody being really honest about where they stand. And I

823
00:49:23,920 --> 00:49:27,200
Speaker 3: want there to be journalism and media that is not

824
00:49:27,640 --> 00:49:31,399
Speaker 3: politically tinted or for one side or the other. And

825
00:49:31,480 --> 00:49:33,879
Speaker 3: I just want to say one thing that always gets

826
00:49:33,920 --> 00:49:37,160
Speaker 3: lost in the coverage and sort of the criticism that

827
00:49:37,239 --> 00:49:39,799
Speaker 3: career used to get a lot more of, is that

828
00:49:39,840 --> 00:49:43,080
Speaker 3: we're not partisan. We don't stand for whatever the Democratic

829
00:49:43,160 --> 00:49:47,480
Speaker 3: Party stands for, whatever version of the Democratic Party exists

830
00:49:47,560 --> 00:49:50,520
Speaker 3: at any given moment. We're very transparent about the fact

831
00:49:50,560 --> 00:49:53,759
Speaker 3: that we have values that we don't compromise on. And

832
00:49:53,800 --> 00:49:57,759
Speaker 3: that's internally and externally. That touches everything from who we

833
00:49:57,800 --> 00:49:59,759
Speaker 3: would ever allow to advertise.

834
00:49:59,640 --> 00:50:02,400
Speaker 2: On our newsrooms and on our platforms.

835
00:50:02,239 --> 00:50:06,040
Speaker 3: As well as as the investors that we invite in

836
00:50:06,239 --> 00:50:11,200
Speaker 3: who share our vision for the world. And it's you know,

837
00:50:11,680 --> 00:50:13,120
Speaker 3: there's a lot of labels that I don't know what

838
00:50:13,160 --> 00:50:15,600
Speaker 3: they mean anymore. I don't know what progressive means to

839
00:50:15,600 --> 00:50:18,080
Speaker 3: certain people. I don't know what centrist means to other people.

840
00:50:18,480 --> 00:50:20,360
Speaker 3: So people can call us whatever.

841
00:50:20,120 --> 00:50:23,200
Speaker 1: They do, not defining conservative, yeah, exactly.

842
00:50:22,840 --> 00:50:25,800
Speaker 2: Exactly, But our values are very currently on our website.

843
00:50:27,080 --> 00:50:29,800
Speaker 1: And I know you know this going in. I struggle

844
00:50:29,800 --> 00:50:32,799
Speaker 1: with this, and I will give you I'll just give

845
00:50:32,800 --> 00:50:39,160
Speaker 1: you my own experience. So we have a media environment

846
00:50:39,239 --> 00:50:42,120
Speaker 1: right now that's very similar to the nineteenth century where

847
00:50:42,160 --> 00:50:45,319
Speaker 1: there was you knew up front, I always say this

848
00:50:45,440 --> 00:50:49,640
Speaker 1: if you the Tallahassee Democrats still exists today and what

849
00:50:49,680 --> 00:50:51,920
Speaker 1: that meant was and it used to be it basically

850
00:50:51,920 --> 00:50:56,920
Speaker 1: every political movement had you you sometimes advertise sort of

851
00:50:57,320 --> 00:51:00,560
Speaker 1: where you were as a news organization based on the party.

852
00:51:00,560 --> 00:51:02,520
Speaker 1: And we had, you know, papers that were named the

853
00:51:02,560 --> 00:51:06,040
Speaker 1: Waterbury Republican, the Tallahassee Democrat, and that was, you know,

854
00:51:06,040 --> 00:51:08,680
Speaker 1: the nineteenth century. And when I've was going back to

855
00:51:08,719 --> 00:51:12,040
Speaker 1: do some research on Garfield, I'm obsessed with Garfield. We

856
00:51:12,080 --> 00:51:13,880
Speaker 1: can you know, I think that that is the most

857
00:51:14,160 --> 00:51:17,160
Speaker 1: that whole period and in fact, you know, between essentially

858
00:51:17,640 --> 00:51:22,520
Speaker 1: the end of Grant's presidency through McKinley frankly through Teddy Roosevelt.

859
00:51:22,600 --> 00:51:25,040
Speaker 1: I think we're reliving like I think it's almost it's

860
00:51:25,200 --> 00:51:28,200
Speaker 1: very similar. So I've spent a lot of time digging

861
00:51:28,200 --> 00:51:31,560
Speaker 1: into that era. And one of the frustrating things, just

862
00:51:31,600 --> 00:51:35,560
Speaker 1: simply as a researcher, is every news event has three

863
00:51:35,640 --> 00:51:40,080
Speaker 1: or four different accounts, and they're slightly different based on

864
00:51:40,520 --> 00:51:44,920
Speaker 1: the media organization that covered it, not dissimilar to what

865
00:51:44,960 --> 00:51:48,640
Speaker 1: we have. But you don't you feel like you've got

866
00:51:48,640 --> 00:51:52,040
Speaker 1: to come to your best guess to what the truth

867
00:51:52,160 --> 00:51:55,840
Speaker 1: is of set event because there was you could you

868
00:51:55,880 --> 00:51:59,120
Speaker 1: could read the political filter that felt that was on

869
00:51:59,239 --> 00:52:03,120
Speaker 1: each of these stories. And that's the concern I have, Like,

870
00:52:03,160 --> 00:52:05,239
Speaker 1: do you worry that if your journalist gets a great

871
00:52:05,239 --> 00:52:10,200
Speaker 1: scoop that the scoop is tainted by the belief, well,

872
00:52:10,960 --> 00:52:13,400
Speaker 1: you know, they're only looking at this through the left eye,

873
00:52:13,440 --> 00:52:16,719
Speaker 1: They're not looking at this through a totality, and what

874
00:52:17,200 --> 00:52:19,960
Speaker 1: part of this story aren't they reporting because it would

875
00:52:20,000 --> 00:52:23,360
Speaker 1: go against a progressive value.

876
00:52:24,520 --> 00:52:28,239
Speaker 3: I don't worry about that because of the information and

877
00:52:28,320 --> 00:52:31,440
Speaker 3: media environment we exist in today. I'm very much a

878
00:52:31,480 --> 00:52:34,279
Speaker 3: proponent of living in and acting in the world as

879
00:52:34,320 --> 00:52:36,960
Speaker 3: it is. Not as I want it to be. So

880
00:52:37,040 --> 00:52:38,760
Speaker 3: I think that's a really important distinction.

881
00:52:38,920 --> 00:52:41,040
Speaker 1: I fight that all the time. I always sit there,

882
00:52:41,120 --> 00:52:44,400
Speaker 1: you know, I joke you know that. I used to

883
00:52:44,400 --> 00:52:46,480
Speaker 1: say it meet the press, I cover politics as it is,

884
00:52:46,520 --> 00:52:49,560
Speaker 1: not as I wish or were. Yeah, that's I'm dealing

885
00:52:49,560 --> 00:52:52,280
Speaker 1: with what I have not you know, well, why can't

886
00:52:52,280 --> 00:52:55,720
Speaker 1: this person do this? I don't know, Go vote, Go

887
00:52:55,719 --> 00:52:58,080
Speaker 1: go register to vote in their state, and go find out.

888
00:52:58,200 --> 00:53:00,000
Speaker 3: This is one of my biggest challenges because I I

889
00:53:00,080 --> 00:53:04,440
Speaker 3: think it's a healthy tension and debate, right. I just

890
00:53:05,120 --> 00:53:07,840
Speaker 3: I got very frustrated over the years of having this

891
00:53:07,880 --> 00:53:10,520
Speaker 3: conversation with folks where really their argument was just like, well,

892
00:53:10,520 --> 00:53:11,920
Speaker 3: we just have to go back, and I was like, well,

893
00:53:11,960 --> 00:53:13,560
Speaker 3: I don't think we're ever going back to the.

894
00:53:13,520 --> 00:53:14,040
Speaker 2: Way it was.

895
00:53:14,160 --> 00:53:15,600
Speaker 1: We never go back by the way ever.

896
00:53:15,440 --> 00:53:16,560
Speaker 2: Putting that genie out of the puddle.

897
00:53:16,600 --> 00:53:19,640
Speaker 3: So like, how do we move forward and how do

898
00:53:19,680 --> 00:53:23,440
Speaker 3: we understand that bad actors tend to be first movers

899
00:53:23,480 --> 00:53:27,080
Speaker 3: because they have a real imperative and the way that

900
00:53:27,120 --> 00:53:31,920
Speaker 3: disinformation and misinformation flows because of the lack of regulation. Unfortunately,

901
00:53:31,960 --> 00:53:35,760
Speaker 3: the best antidote is offensive information.

902
00:53:35,960 --> 00:53:38,800
Speaker 2: It is good information flowing into the same spaces.

903
00:53:38,840 --> 00:53:41,800
Speaker 3: And again, I just think transparency about where you stand

904
00:53:41,880 --> 00:53:44,320
Speaker 3: is important. I think it's really bad when it's nefarious

905
00:53:44,320 --> 00:53:46,600
Speaker 3: where you claim to be something or not. Like Fox

906
00:53:46,640 --> 00:53:49,000
Speaker 3: no longer uses fair and balanced, but it was always

907
00:53:49,040 --> 00:53:50,399
Speaker 3: almost a joke when they did.

908
00:53:50,440 --> 00:53:51,880
Speaker 2: They were never fair and balanced.

909
00:53:51,920 --> 00:53:54,120
Speaker 1: So the word balance, I always say. I always said

910
00:53:54,280 --> 00:53:59,680
Speaker 1: there's fairness, I'm fair balanced. You can't balance the truth, right,

911
00:54:00,520 --> 00:54:02,719
Speaker 1: you know, I always say that I never understood the

912
00:54:02,800 --> 00:54:05,080
Speaker 1: balance portion of what they were trying to say. That

913
00:54:05,239 --> 00:54:07,560
Speaker 1: was the link in the nod right. By saying balance,

914
00:54:07,600 --> 00:54:09,440
Speaker 1: they're saying, hey, we're going to have a point of

915
00:54:09,480 --> 00:54:11,960
Speaker 1: view on the right, you know, where our default is

916
00:54:11,960 --> 00:54:14,359
Speaker 1: always going to be on the right versus the left.

917
00:54:14,360 --> 00:54:17,120
Speaker 1: But it was a wink, it wasn't It was covert,

918
00:54:17,160 --> 00:54:19,200
Speaker 1: not overt on that front.

919
00:54:19,280 --> 00:54:22,680
Speaker 3: I do think that the abuse of that practice in

920
00:54:23,640 --> 00:54:28,640
Speaker 3: objective let's call it journalism, did get us here where

921
00:54:28,680 --> 00:54:33,560
Speaker 3: we have the most aggressively antagonistic administration towards the press

922
00:54:33,880 --> 00:54:37,040
Speaker 3: and towards freedom of press in this country, because it

923
00:54:37,160 --> 00:54:41,560
Speaker 3: did devolve from make sure that you represent both sides

924
00:54:41,600 --> 00:54:43,759
Speaker 3: of an argument, as if there's only two. But at

925
00:54:43,840 --> 00:54:47,439
Speaker 3: least two both political sides, and it evolved into give

926
00:54:47,560 --> 00:54:51,560
Speaker 3: equal airtime regardless of whether they're being honest, right, preserve

927
00:54:51,640 --> 00:54:54,640
Speaker 3: the access like right, don't call them out.

928
00:54:55,239 --> 00:54:56,279
Speaker 2: Now it's so much worse.

929
00:54:56,360 --> 00:54:58,319
Speaker 3: Right, it was a slippery slope and now we're down

930
00:54:58,360 --> 00:55:01,640
Speaker 3: it where now it is operation out of fear and

931
00:55:01,760 --> 00:55:05,800
Speaker 3: favor by really really big corporate media brands.

932
00:55:05,880 --> 00:55:08,080
Speaker 2: And that's the worst case scenario.

933
00:55:08,200 --> 00:55:10,920
Speaker 3: So I do think when you look at the ecosystem today,

934
00:55:11,800 --> 00:55:16,839
Speaker 3: we never ever, ever suggested that careers should replace objective

935
00:55:17,120 --> 00:55:21,480
Speaker 3: or you know, more fair local or national journalism whatsoever.

936
00:55:21,760 --> 00:55:25,399
Speaker 3: We're in a massive competitive marketplace for attention to get

937
00:55:25,440 --> 00:55:28,120
Speaker 3: information in front of people, and that's also why we

938
00:55:28,160 --> 00:55:30,960
Speaker 3: focused on building media that isn't for elites like you

939
00:55:31,040 --> 00:55:34,480
Speaker 3: and I. Most media today that is funded or has

940
00:55:34,520 --> 00:55:38,440
Speaker 3: sustainable business models, it's for people willing to pay for news.

941
00:55:38,520 --> 00:55:40,359
Speaker 3: And I think it was Pew that just came out

942
00:55:40,360 --> 00:55:42,000
Speaker 3: with a study a few weeks ago that shows eighty

943
00:55:42,040 --> 00:55:45,080
Speaker 3: three percent of Americans have never paid for a news product.

944
00:55:45,760 --> 00:55:48,920
Speaker 1: By the way, they never did, you know. I'm on

945
00:55:48,960 --> 00:55:52,279
Speaker 1: this obsession. I believe there's an answer on local. I'm

946
00:55:52,520 --> 00:55:55,839
Speaker 1: I'm my focus is I think I think you can

947
00:55:55,920 --> 00:56:01,840
Speaker 1: build a broad audience for local if you start with

948
00:56:01,880 --> 00:56:05,920
Speaker 1: sports and build out from there. But I do believe

949
00:56:06,040 --> 00:56:09,200
Speaker 1: particular Yeah, no, I think I'd go down to twelve

950
00:56:09,239 --> 00:56:13,320
Speaker 1: and up. Actually, I think the gender parody on youth sports.

951
00:56:13,840 --> 00:56:16,120
Speaker 1: I think the fact that college it is no longer

952
00:56:16,160 --> 00:56:18,200
Speaker 1: a one percent idea that you can pay for college

953
00:56:18,560 --> 00:56:21,440
Speaker 1: by playing a sport. It's probably in the fifteen to

954
00:56:21,440 --> 00:56:23,839
Speaker 1: twenty percent, which means a lot of parents are going

955
00:56:23,880 --> 00:56:26,440
Speaker 1: to say, okay, you know, and the same reason you

956
00:56:26,520 --> 00:56:29,080
Speaker 1: might have your kids take piano lessons, you're going to

957
00:56:29,120 --> 00:56:31,280
Speaker 1: have them pick up lacrosse deck. You know, let's see

958
00:56:31,360 --> 00:56:36,759
Speaker 1: right like, you know. So I think that there's some

959
00:56:36,920 --> 00:56:39,840
Speaker 1: utility there. And I also think in the old newspaper

960
00:56:40,600 --> 00:56:42,560
Speaker 1: that we had an illusion that people were paying for

961
00:56:42,640 --> 00:56:45,319
Speaker 1: news when they subscribed to the newspaper. Again, it was

962
00:56:45,360 --> 00:56:47,720
Speaker 1: only ten to twenty percent that read the news portion.

963
00:56:48,080 --> 00:56:51,080
Speaker 1: Everybody else had other reasons. That was a marketplace, that's

964
00:56:51,080 --> 00:56:53,319
Speaker 1: where you found a job, it's where you found out

965
00:56:53,719 --> 00:56:56,400
Speaker 1: when the movie started. You know, there were a variety

966
00:56:56,400 --> 00:56:58,839
Speaker 1: of reasons, and it was. And my obsession is how

967
00:56:58,840 --> 00:57:01,600
Speaker 1: do we recreate the bund without making it a newspaper, right,

968
00:57:01,760 --> 00:57:07,600
Speaker 1: how do you give your community the information it wants

969
00:57:07,680 --> 00:57:10,200
Speaker 1: to navigate their lives right and be a little more

970
00:57:10,760 --> 00:57:15,120
Speaker 1: service oriented on this and that. Over time, then they'll

971
00:57:15,160 --> 00:57:17,160
Speaker 1: believe you, why when you tell them that they're city

972
00:57:17,160 --> 00:57:20,600
Speaker 1: councilman's corrupt, Right, But you can't start with that right,

973
00:57:20,720 --> 00:57:24,360
Speaker 1: and you might accidentally what I call it is accidentally

974
00:57:24,400 --> 00:57:29,120
Speaker 1: informing people. The newspaper was a beautiful and elegant bundle

975
00:57:29,200 --> 00:57:30,800
Speaker 1: that accidentally informed people.

976
00:57:31,280 --> 00:57:35,160
Speaker 3: We call it the vegetables because that's not what people

977
00:57:35,200 --> 00:57:35,720
Speaker 3: come for.

978
00:57:36,240 --> 00:57:39,560
Speaker 1: Well, they never have, no they come for the two

979
00:57:39,640 --> 00:57:42,400
Speaker 1: for one on Budweiser beer and then they'll maybe pick

980
00:57:42,480 --> 00:57:44,000
Speaker 1: up fresh tomatoes.

981
00:57:46,080 --> 00:57:50,120
Speaker 3: Very aligned about being bullish about the opportunity and even

982
00:57:50,160 --> 00:57:53,160
Speaker 3: the market opportunity for local. I mean, we don't get

983
00:57:53,160 --> 00:57:55,160
Speaker 3: a lot of attention for this, but we're the fastest

984
00:57:55,160 --> 00:57:57,600
Speaker 3: growing local news network in the country. We're the third

985
00:57:57,680 --> 00:58:00,720
Speaker 3: largest newsletter network in the country after path In Axios

986
00:58:00,760 --> 00:58:04,680
Speaker 3: Local Axios. Local in particular serves people like us, urban,

987
00:58:04,840 --> 00:58:08,720
Speaker 3: higher income, higher educated, and intentionally don't and we will

988
00:58:08,760 --> 00:58:11,760
Speaker 3: never charge for our journalism because we believe in a

989
00:58:11,800 --> 00:58:15,320
Speaker 3: diversified funding model that relies in part on philanthropy and

990
00:58:15,360 --> 00:58:19,760
Speaker 3: part on traditional advertising and grassroots support because people love

991
00:58:19,800 --> 00:58:20,720
Speaker 3: the free products.

992
00:58:21,080 --> 00:58:23,720
Speaker 2: And I'll tell you we grow so quickly in.

993
00:58:24,680 --> 00:58:29,360
Speaker 3: Our local constituencies because there is no other free local

994
00:58:29,400 --> 00:58:32,720
Speaker 3: journalism and that's not touch behind a paywall. And that's

995
00:58:32,720 --> 00:58:34,920
Speaker 3: why we're the largest in a lot of our states

996
00:58:34,920 --> 00:58:38,760
Speaker 3: on social media. Also because our business model isn't dependent

997
00:58:38,920 --> 00:58:42,480
Speaker 3: on site traffic or kind of old ways of bringing

998
00:58:42,480 --> 00:58:45,160
Speaker 3: in money, and that gives us an enormous amount of

999
00:58:45,400 --> 00:58:48,000
Speaker 3: opportunity to be able to reach more folks who just

1000
00:58:48,120 --> 00:58:51,440
Speaker 3: aren't getting good local journalism either way, and they can

1001
00:58:51,480 --> 00:58:52,320
Speaker 3: decide if they trust U.

1002
00:58:52,360 --> 00:58:54,560
Speaker 1: S urn Up in many of the descriptions of what

1003
00:58:54,600 --> 00:58:58,360
Speaker 1: you're building is about, Hey, you're trying to respond to

1004
00:58:58,520 --> 00:59:02,200
Speaker 1: what was a forty year conservative media project. And I

1005
00:59:02,280 --> 00:59:05,240
Speaker 1: always date it back. I mean, I don't think people

1006
00:59:05,280 --> 00:59:09,439
Speaker 1: fully appreciate the trigger that Watergate was for the right.

1007
00:59:09,960 --> 00:59:12,280
Speaker 1: You know, it has been one of these things for

1008
00:59:12,400 --> 00:59:15,160
Speaker 1: so many of us. We view Watergate as this seminal

1009
00:59:15,200 --> 00:59:19,520
Speaker 1: moment of abuse of power. There is a concerted group

1010
00:59:19,520 --> 00:59:21,640
Speaker 1: of folks. It was Roger Al's and Roger Stone, the

1011
00:59:21,640 --> 00:59:23,840
Speaker 1: two Rogers I always say, were sort of that they're

1012
00:59:23,840 --> 00:59:28,560
Speaker 1: the most notable people that sort of lived have lived

1013
00:59:28,600 --> 00:59:32,000
Speaker 1: through this. They believed that it was the media that

1014
00:59:32,040 --> 00:59:36,680
Speaker 1: got Nixon, and that this collective sense of outrage by

1015
00:59:36,720 --> 00:59:40,280
Speaker 1: the media crush Nixon. Don't let it happen again. Right,

1016
00:59:40,520 --> 00:59:42,920
Speaker 1: We're going to build this in first Roger Ales did

1017
00:59:42,960 --> 00:59:45,440
Speaker 1: Mike Douglass and did all these things and sort of

1018
00:59:45,880 --> 00:59:49,360
Speaker 1: worked his way into into media. Roger Stone has always

1019
00:59:49,400 --> 00:59:51,720
Speaker 1: been on the periphery of this as well. And now

1020
00:59:51,720 --> 00:59:54,040
Speaker 1: they have their sort of they got their perfect vehicle

1021
00:59:54,080 --> 00:59:57,360
Speaker 1: in Donald Trump. I sort of I accept the premise

1022
00:59:57,400 --> 01:00:00,400
Speaker 1: that it was that what else did you learn from

1023
01:00:00,440 --> 01:00:05,440
Speaker 1: what the conservative media ecosystem built right starting with talk

1024
01:00:05,560 --> 01:00:11,880
Speaker 1: radio that morphed into the fragmentation of the internet. What

1025
01:00:11,920 --> 01:00:13,919
Speaker 1: do you think they do really well that you're hoping

1026
01:00:13,920 --> 01:00:14,440
Speaker 1: to emulate.

1027
01:00:15,200 --> 01:00:17,280
Speaker 3: Sure, well, there's a lot that we would never emulate,

1028
01:00:17,800 --> 01:00:19,760
Speaker 3: very explicitly, so I will start there.

1029
01:00:19,840 --> 01:00:22,600
Speaker 2: We will never sow disinformation or misinformation.

1030
01:00:22,680 --> 01:00:25,560
Speaker 3: We take our responsibility to fact check every piece of reporting.

1031
01:00:25,600 --> 01:00:26,960
Speaker 2: We do very seriously.

1032
01:00:27,640 --> 01:00:29,280
Speaker 3: And that was an argument I made from the beginning,

1033
01:00:29,320 --> 01:00:32,040
Speaker 3: is that you can actually have values driven media. In

1034
01:00:32,120 --> 01:00:34,640
Speaker 3: our values we don't have to copy that. They also

1035
01:00:34,720 --> 01:00:37,840
Speaker 3: sew a lot of hate and division in order to

1036
01:00:37,960 --> 01:00:41,200
Speaker 3: drive their narrative and in order to get Democrats to

1037
01:00:41,240 --> 01:00:43,920
Speaker 3: take the bait, in order to get legacy media brands

1038
01:00:43,960 --> 01:00:47,240
Speaker 3: to cover it. Right, everybody loves controversy and conflict in

1039
01:00:47,280 --> 01:00:51,880
Speaker 3: this attention economy, it goes like wildfire. So they are

1040
01:00:52,000 --> 01:00:56,360
Speaker 3: very adept at that it is a really really.

1041
01:00:56,040 --> 01:00:57,200
Speaker 2: Hard balance to strike.

1042
01:00:57,240 --> 01:00:59,360
Speaker 3: And I'm sure you see this too with your own

1043
01:00:59,640 --> 01:01:03,200
Speaker 3: growth of trying to build a media brand and products,

1044
01:01:03,680 --> 01:01:07,120
Speaker 3: having left legacy media to do this, where you know

1045
01:01:07,720 --> 01:01:12,840
Speaker 3: the algorithms were ward conflict and controversy, and you have

1046
01:01:12,880 --> 01:01:15,960
Speaker 3: to fight really hard to get people's attention wall staying

1047
01:01:16,000 --> 01:01:17,320
Speaker 3: true to those values.

1048
01:01:17,800 --> 01:01:18,720
Speaker 2: I do think what.

1049
01:01:20,080 --> 01:01:24,080
Speaker 3: Right wing media has always understood and done, or rather

1050
01:01:24,120 --> 01:01:27,920
Speaker 3: I should say the folks that back it financially, like

1051
01:01:27,960 --> 01:01:31,760
Speaker 3: the Murdochs and the Peter Thiels, et cetera. They do

1052
01:01:31,960 --> 01:01:35,720
Speaker 3: understand that the medium is the message. They do understand

1053
01:01:36,200 --> 01:01:40,920
Speaker 3: that winning the ideological or political war starts with winning

1054
01:01:40,920 --> 01:01:46,120
Speaker 3: the information war, whatever that terrain looks like. And so

1055
01:01:46,600 --> 01:01:49,120
Speaker 3: in building their own infrastructure they were far ahead of

1056
01:01:49,120 --> 01:01:51,760
Speaker 3: They did it in a defensive posture. Right They believed

1057
01:01:51,760 --> 01:01:54,560
Speaker 3: that all traditional media was liberal had a liberal bias,

1058
01:01:54,960 --> 01:01:58,880
Speaker 3: so they built their own ecosystem and they found a

1059
01:01:58,920 --> 01:02:03,680
Speaker 3: way to actually the full national narrative. And the left,

1060
01:02:03,760 --> 01:02:06,240
Speaker 3: and I call it the broader left, they relied on

1061
01:02:06,280 --> 01:02:09,800
Speaker 3: traditional media. Still they thought that was they were allergic

1062
01:02:09,840 --> 01:02:13,480
Speaker 3: to that concept, right, and they're purests in a lot

1063
01:02:13,480 --> 01:02:17,360
Speaker 3: of ways the left has been historically. And what ended

1064
01:02:17,400 --> 01:02:19,680
Speaker 3: up happening is they had to rely entirely on paid

1065
01:02:19,720 --> 01:02:23,520
Speaker 3: advertisements to get their message across, and that no longer

1066
01:02:23,680 --> 01:02:27,720
Speaker 3: is effective in this ecosystem. So they just didn't evolve.

1067
01:02:27,760 --> 01:02:30,680
Speaker 3: And I think that something that I really pride myself

1068
01:02:30,680 --> 01:02:33,440
Speaker 3: and our team on is that we've been first movers.

1069
01:02:33,600 --> 01:02:37,440
Speaker 3: We have done hard things that have been criticized on

1070
01:02:37,560 --> 01:02:41,160
Speaker 3: all sides, which means often you're doing something smart or

1071
01:02:41,200 --> 01:02:41,800
Speaker 3: something good.

1072
01:02:42,400 --> 01:02:45,560
Speaker 1: Give me an example, I mean we were.

1073
01:02:45,960 --> 01:02:48,560
Speaker 3: Just the fact that we started a local news network

1074
01:02:48,600 --> 01:02:52,040
Speaker 3: that was explicitly values driven, you know, to your earlier point,

1075
01:02:52,080 --> 01:02:56,360
Speaker 3: that's controversial to some folks. The fact that I used

1076
01:02:56,360 --> 01:02:58,920
Speaker 3: to work in politics, which is crazy because the crossover

1077
01:02:58,960 --> 01:03:01,880
Speaker 3: between people who've worked in politics and media it's hard.

1078
01:03:01,920 --> 01:03:03,600
Speaker 1: Well, here's a fun little fact for you. If you

1079
01:03:03,600 --> 01:03:06,320
Speaker 1: ever want to defend do you know who Blair was

1080
01:03:06,400 --> 01:03:07,880
Speaker 1: for Blair House, No.

1081
01:03:08,200 --> 01:03:08,640
Speaker 2: I don't.

1082
01:03:09,120 --> 01:03:12,200
Speaker 1: He was the publisher of the of Andrew Jackson's favorite

1083
01:03:12,280 --> 01:03:16,720
Speaker 1: newspaper in Tennessee, and he wanted him close by, so

1084
01:03:16,760 --> 01:03:19,320
Speaker 1: he bought That's the house he bought. It was eventually

1085
01:03:19,360 --> 01:03:21,360
Speaker 1: named after him, but it was sort of like I

1086
01:03:21,440 --> 01:03:23,960
Speaker 1: do like. Look, whether we love it or hate it,

1087
01:03:24,040 --> 01:03:27,600
Speaker 1: the convergence of media and politics, I mean, Alexander Hamilton, right,

1088
01:03:27,640 --> 01:03:29,400
Speaker 1: what more do we need to? You know? It is?

1089
01:03:29,960 --> 01:03:32,680
Speaker 1: It has been a it has always been there. We

1090
01:03:32,720 --> 01:03:36,760
Speaker 1: cannot like it. I agree with you, I sort of,

1091
01:03:36,800 --> 01:03:39,680
Speaker 1: you know, And the question, you know, I guess ultimately

1092
01:03:39,800 --> 01:03:42,520
Speaker 1: is how do you trust and verify? What's the best

1093
01:03:42,560 --> 01:03:45,440
Speaker 1: way to trust and verify? Where do you know? So

1094
01:03:45,480 --> 01:03:51,280
Speaker 1: I accept that premise about it? What do you make

1095
01:03:51,320 --> 01:03:53,720
Speaker 1: of Let me throw a couple of things, all sides?

1096
01:03:53,800 --> 01:03:57,640
Speaker 1: Do you know this news all sides where they're trying

1097
01:03:57,680 --> 01:04:02,520
Speaker 1: to essentially map I logically map every media entity that

1098
01:04:02,560 --> 01:04:07,200
Speaker 1: there is. I sort of recoil about it personally, because

1099
01:04:07,520 --> 01:04:09,840
Speaker 1: you know, I don't feel like on any given day

1100
01:04:10,360 --> 01:04:12,040
Speaker 1: they are going to be things that I report or

1101
01:04:12,080 --> 01:04:14,320
Speaker 1: say that the left will be happy with. And there

1102
01:04:14,320 --> 01:04:16,080
Speaker 1: will be days that I reporter say that the right

1103
01:04:16,120 --> 01:04:18,520
Speaker 1: will be happy with and I don't know how all

1104
01:04:18,600 --> 01:04:21,560
Speaker 1: sides deals with that, and then they're going to try

1105
01:04:21,560 --> 01:04:24,080
Speaker 1: to predict what my politics is. Well, I always say

1106
01:04:24,120 --> 01:04:27,120
Speaker 1: I actually don't share a lot of my political views

1107
01:04:27,640 --> 01:04:32,360
Speaker 1: because I think most people, you know, I view politics

1108
01:04:32,480 --> 01:04:36,760
Speaker 1: as sort of what you do, you know, how you

1109
01:04:36,840 --> 01:04:39,640
Speaker 1: make a compromise without killing each other? Right. I always

1110
01:04:39,640 --> 01:04:44,120
Speaker 1: say civilization created politics in order to resolve disputes without

1111
01:04:44,160 --> 01:04:47,680
Speaker 1: death and violence. And I don't expect to get one

1112
01:04:47,720 --> 01:04:50,240
Speaker 1: hundred percent of my way. But maybe I'm in the

1113
01:04:50,240 --> 01:04:54,200
Speaker 1: minority and how I view politics these days. So I

1114
01:04:54,800 --> 01:04:57,680
Speaker 1: don't love the idea of quote being labeled if they say, oh,

1115
01:04:57,760 --> 01:05:00,280
Speaker 1: your center left or your center right, or or this that.

1116
01:05:01,240 --> 01:05:04,240
Speaker 1: But I understand why an audience, so I a consumer

1117
01:05:04,280 --> 01:05:06,960
Speaker 1: of media, would really like a site like that. So

1118
01:05:07,000 --> 01:05:09,080
Speaker 1: I'm curious how you view all sides.

1119
01:05:09,600 --> 01:05:12,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I think it's I think it's interesting,

1120
01:05:12,280 --> 01:05:14,240
Speaker 3: and I think it's for an audience that you know,

1121
01:05:14,400 --> 01:05:17,880
Speaker 3: wants to understand, and so I think the concept is neat.

1122
01:05:17,920 --> 01:05:21,040
Speaker 3: But I fully agree with you. I hate being put

1123
01:05:21,120 --> 01:05:23,080
Speaker 3: in a box. I hate when careers put in a box.

1124
01:05:23,120 --> 01:05:25,880
Speaker 3: I think this is one of the challenges of journalism

1125
01:05:25,920 --> 01:05:29,520
Speaker 3: and media in general is I mean, any time that

1126
01:05:29,560 --> 01:05:33,400
Speaker 3: you're being put in a box, something's being missed. We

1127
01:05:33,400 --> 01:05:37,120
Speaker 3: we are incredibly our reporting is very aggressive about the

1128
01:05:37,200 --> 01:05:39,920
Speaker 3: gar intocracy and the Democratic Party that like, we're pissing

1129
01:05:39,920 --> 01:05:43,520
Speaker 3: off Democrats too as we get bigger and bigger, because

1130
01:05:43,520 --> 01:05:47,640
Speaker 3: we're really representing our audience. And I think that's also

1131
01:05:48,040 --> 01:05:51,320
Speaker 3: what's interesting about the ecosystem today is that you know,

1132
01:05:51,360 --> 01:05:53,520
Speaker 3: there's a lot of news now about a lot of

1133
01:05:53,600 --> 01:05:57,280
Speaker 3: the seemingly right wing podcasters who really help Trump get

1134
01:05:57,280 --> 01:06:02,400
Speaker 3: elected turning on him right now now. And I think

1135
01:06:02,440 --> 01:06:04,280
Speaker 3: that you know, they're moving their audiences, but I think

1136
01:06:04,320 --> 01:06:07,200
Speaker 3: their audiences are also moving them. I think that they

1137
01:06:07,240 --> 01:06:11,080
Speaker 3: are in touch with sort of where folks are, and

1138
01:06:11,160 --> 01:06:15,160
Speaker 3: that's how you stay relevant, right And so that's something

1139
01:06:15,160 --> 01:06:18,280
Speaker 3: that Democrats could learn a lot from listening to your

1140
01:06:18,320 --> 01:06:21,000
Speaker 3: audience and then reflecting.

1141
01:06:21,040 --> 01:06:23,360
Speaker 2: And representing their beliefs.

1142
01:06:23,520 --> 01:06:26,920
Speaker 3: And I think that's what we wake up every day

1143
01:06:27,000 --> 01:06:29,600
Speaker 3: career trying to do, is to really pay attention to

1144
01:06:29,600 --> 01:06:31,680
Speaker 3: what our audiences are saying in the comments, what they're

1145
01:06:31,680 --> 01:06:33,840
Speaker 3: engaging with, what they are interested in.

1146
01:06:34,760 --> 01:06:38,240
Speaker 2: And that doesn't ever please either or both sides.

1147
01:06:47,640 --> 01:06:50,240
Speaker 1: Do you find though, that you struggle to get conservative

1148
01:06:50,280 --> 01:06:51,920
Speaker 1: voices to cooperate with stories?

1149
01:06:54,520 --> 01:06:57,800
Speaker 3: Sure, I mean again, we don't necessarily try all the

1150
01:06:57,840 --> 01:07:02,120
Speaker 3: time because we're not trying to give equal airtime. I mean,

1151
01:07:02,560 --> 01:07:05,920
Speaker 3: my reporters will absolutely ask for comments if they're talking

1152
01:07:05,920 --> 01:07:10,000
Speaker 3: about something of that nature and addressing them. But oftentimes,

1153
01:07:10,000 --> 01:07:11,840
Speaker 3: you know, in this ecosystem, we rely a lot on

1154
01:07:11,840 --> 01:07:15,880
Speaker 3: people in their own words. It's a video information economy,

1155
01:07:16,560 --> 01:07:18,919
Speaker 3: and so that that speaks for itself. I mean, AA

1156
01:07:18,960 --> 01:07:21,000
Speaker 3: is going to be a whole separate challenge right in

1157
01:07:21,920 --> 01:07:25,720
Speaker 3: figuring that world out. But we really really, really really

1158
01:07:25,760 --> 01:07:28,480
Speaker 3: put a huge, huge emphasis on trust.

1159
01:07:28,560 --> 01:07:30,880
Speaker 2: And the way that we think about trust is it

1160
01:07:30,960 --> 01:07:32,600
Speaker 2: is our reporters.

1161
01:07:32,640 --> 01:07:35,880
Speaker 3: It's their names and faces, it's their livelihoods that are showing.

1162
01:07:35,680 --> 01:07:37,920
Speaker 1: Who they are and everything about.

1163
01:07:37,960 --> 01:07:40,840
Speaker 3: And most of our state newsrooms have won in state

1164
01:07:40,880 --> 01:07:44,840
Speaker 3: press awards because mostly in the innovative categories, because we're

1165
01:07:44,880 --> 01:07:47,720
Speaker 3: actually doing what a lot of traditional newsrooms and reporters

1166
01:07:47,720 --> 01:07:50,800
Speaker 3: still aren't, especially at the local level, just in terms

1167
01:07:50,840 --> 01:07:53,920
Speaker 3: of meeting people where they are on TikTok and Instagram.

1168
01:07:54,120 --> 01:07:56,000
Speaker 1: Well, it's interesting you say that, like I'm i have,

1169
01:07:57,000 --> 01:07:59,560
Speaker 1: you know, when I'm thinking about, you know, if I'm

1170
01:07:59,800 --> 01:08:02,560
Speaker 1: able to pull off what I want to do and

1171
01:08:02,640 --> 01:08:06,480
Speaker 1: build some of these community newsrooms at scale. The thing

1172
01:08:06,560 --> 01:08:09,360
Speaker 1: that I keep coming back to now is the there's

1173
01:08:09,400 --> 01:08:11,480
Speaker 1: two things. And I know you've discovered this or you

1174
01:08:11,520 --> 01:08:14,840
Speaker 1: wouldn't have launched what you launched, which is, particularly with

1175
01:08:15,440 --> 01:08:19,120
Speaker 1: consumers of information under the age of fifty, brands don't matter.

1176
01:08:19,200 --> 01:08:22,559
Speaker 1: And if anything, brands are a net negative, right like

1177
01:08:23,400 --> 01:08:27,920
Speaker 1: it is there is, and that you're better off having

1178
01:08:27,960 --> 01:08:31,240
Speaker 1: an influencer. You know you don't. It's not the entity

1179
01:08:31,320 --> 01:08:34,720
Speaker 1: that speaks, it's the individual that speaks, right, you know.

1180
01:08:34,800 --> 01:08:37,799
Speaker 1: I remember going through a hurricane and a Hurricane Andrew

1181
01:08:38,400 --> 01:08:41,320
Speaker 1: in Miami in nineteen ninety two, and there was one

1182
01:08:41,360 --> 01:08:44,120
Speaker 1: weather guy and to this day, for so many people,

1183
01:08:44,280 --> 01:08:48,120
Speaker 1: they just follow Brian Norcross. Wherever Brian Norcross goes, they're

1184
01:08:48,200 --> 01:08:50,920
Speaker 1: going to go. It doesn't matter if he worked for

1185
01:08:51,000 --> 01:08:54,840
Speaker 1: Channel six, channel four, whatever, it is. Brian Norcross. That

1186
01:08:55,040 --> 01:08:58,479
Speaker 1: dude kept me safe during Hurricane Andrew. And I think

1187
01:08:58,520 --> 01:09:01,479
Speaker 1: that is now our relationship beyond weather, right, that there

1188
01:09:01,560 --> 01:09:07,560
Speaker 1: is singular entities there the influencer model. What's the I

1189
01:09:07,880 --> 01:09:10,840
Speaker 1: get it that it's the better way to build an

1190
01:09:10,880 --> 01:09:13,560
Speaker 1: audience to say, what do you see as the downside

1191
01:09:13,640 --> 01:09:15,560
Speaker 1: to the influencer model and journalism?

1192
01:09:15,920 --> 01:09:20,320
Speaker 3: Sure, so definitely that I think now the movement is

1193
01:09:20,720 --> 01:09:23,599
Speaker 3: where most influencers are creators that people are getting their

1194
01:09:23,600 --> 01:09:26,240
Speaker 3: news and information from, are not journalists, right. And so

1195
01:09:26,680 --> 01:09:29,200
Speaker 3: that's something that we think about a lot, because we

1196
01:09:29,400 --> 01:09:32,080
Speaker 3: are reporters are reporters who are trained and they fact

1197
01:09:32,160 --> 01:09:35,720
Speaker 3: check and they know how to source and report quality journalism.

1198
01:09:35,920 --> 01:09:38,599
Speaker 3: But we also work with creators who do not come

1199
01:09:38,640 --> 01:09:43,160
Speaker 3: from media or politics or advocacy whatsoever, but they've built

1200
01:09:43,200 --> 01:09:46,599
Speaker 3: trusted communities because they are lifestyle influencers or they are

1201
01:09:46,600 --> 01:09:49,640
Speaker 3: comedians or things of that nature. And we've started a

1202
01:09:49,680 --> 01:09:54,519
Speaker 3: program to work with them to incorporate our reporting into

1203
01:09:54,640 --> 01:09:58,679
Speaker 3: their content to get that information in front of their audiences, right.

1204
01:09:59,040 --> 01:10:02,120
Speaker 3: And I think that the downside is that there are

1205
01:10:02,160 --> 01:10:04,280
Speaker 3: a lot of folks who are not trained, who do

1206
01:10:04,400 --> 01:10:08,840
Speaker 3: not understand if they are sourcing their information well before

1207
01:10:08,880 --> 01:10:11,519
Speaker 3: they repeat it. And what we've found in our local

1208
01:10:11,560 --> 01:10:16,240
Speaker 3: creators program is that none of them want to spread misinformation.

1209
01:10:16,760 --> 01:10:18,800
Speaker 3: They get really anxious about that, right, Like they want

1210
01:10:18,800 --> 01:10:23,240
Speaker 3: to know that they are spreading good information, and they

1211
01:10:23,680 --> 01:10:26,320
Speaker 3: don't want to lose the trust of their audiences. That's

1212
01:10:26,360 --> 01:10:29,200
Speaker 3: their currency, that's their capital. And so I think the

1213
01:10:29,280 --> 01:10:31,559
Speaker 3: downside is that there are a lot of folks who've

1214
01:10:31,560 --> 01:10:35,160
Speaker 3: become trusted messengers because people feel like they have a

1215
01:10:35,200 --> 01:10:38,000
Speaker 3: parasocial relationship with them. They see them in their homes,

1216
01:10:38,000 --> 01:10:41,519
Speaker 3: they're walking their dogs while they're doing content that they

1217
01:10:41,680 --> 01:10:44,320
Speaker 3: They're more likely to believe them, and they might not

1218
01:10:44,439 --> 01:10:47,800
Speaker 3: be getting good information even if it wasn't malicious or intended.

1219
01:10:48,200 --> 01:10:50,599
Speaker 3: So that's the challenge. We think about that a lot.

1220
01:10:50,720 --> 01:10:52,680
Speaker 3: That's why we started the program was to kind of

1221
01:10:52,800 --> 01:10:54,960
Speaker 3: it's a two way street, get our reporting in front

1222
01:10:54,960 --> 01:10:58,400
Speaker 3: of new audiences and also help these creators really understand

1223
01:10:58,479 --> 01:11:02,120
Speaker 3: sourcing their material. But it's hard, right, It's a massive,

1224
01:11:02,200 --> 01:11:05,960
Speaker 3: massive ecosystem. And on your point about brands, I'm actually

1225
01:11:06,320 --> 01:11:07,080
Speaker 3: I'm an agreement.

1226
01:11:07,120 --> 01:11:07,719
Speaker 2: In general.

1227
01:11:07,840 --> 01:11:12,959
Speaker 3: I have been really surprised actually about how Courier actually

1228
01:11:13,040 --> 01:11:15,200
Speaker 3: has built brand affinity.

1229
01:11:14,640 --> 01:11:15,360
Speaker 2: With young people.

1230
01:11:15,960 --> 01:11:18,400
Speaker 3: Okay, you know, the people that I fund raised from

1231
01:11:18,479 --> 01:11:21,120
Speaker 3: the people that I do interviews with and spend time

1232
01:11:21,160 --> 01:11:22,800
Speaker 3: with and in my circles, et cetera.

1233
01:11:23,120 --> 01:11:24,800
Speaker 2: They might not have come across it on their own

1234
01:11:24,800 --> 01:11:25,720
Speaker 2: if they didn't know me.

1235
01:11:25,920 --> 01:11:29,080
Speaker 3: But sixteen to twenty five year olds no Caurier in

1236
01:11:29,120 --> 01:11:30,479
Speaker 3: this country, and that's.

1237
01:11:30,280 --> 01:11:31,080
Speaker 2: Been wild to me.

1238
01:11:31,240 --> 01:11:33,000
Speaker 3: I have so many people who've told me that they

1239
01:11:33,040 --> 01:11:34,960
Speaker 3: know Career because that's the news their.

1240
01:11:34,880 --> 01:11:36,760
Speaker 2: Kids send them.

1241
01:11:36,920 --> 01:11:39,559
Speaker 3: And it's interesting because I think you and I also

1242
01:11:39,640 --> 01:11:41,479
Speaker 3: agree on a point related to like we're in the

1243
01:11:41,520 --> 01:11:44,240
Speaker 3: fracturing right now and the fragmentation we're.

1244
01:11:44,120 --> 01:11:46,880
Speaker 2: Going to go into consolidation we always do, right, We

1245
01:11:46,920 --> 01:11:47,360
Speaker 2: always do.

1246
01:11:47,720 --> 01:11:49,960
Speaker 1: I always like and my joke is, I'm trying to

1247
01:11:49,960 --> 01:11:54,000
Speaker 1: be a consolidator, but if I'm consolidated, hopefully that's not

1248
01:11:54,040 --> 01:11:55,439
Speaker 1: a horrible thing either, you know.

1249
01:11:56,200 --> 01:11:57,080
Speaker 2: And part of our.

1250
01:11:56,960 --> 01:11:59,080
Speaker 3: Mission and model at Career has always been how do

1251
01:11:59,120 --> 01:12:02,840
Speaker 3: we get good, factual content and values driven content in

1252
01:12:02,920 --> 01:12:06,120
Speaker 3: front of our audiences, and that goes beyond our reporting.

1253
01:12:06,439 --> 01:12:09,559
Speaker 3: We do a lot of aggregated content from cable news,

1254
01:12:09,840 --> 01:12:12,080
Speaker 3: from legacy media that's stuck behind a paywall.

1255
01:12:13,200 --> 01:12:16,479
Speaker 2: We're not lifting their content. We're just putting the headlines in.

1256
01:12:16,400 --> 01:12:18,280
Speaker 3: Front of people and sourcing it so they can go

1257
01:12:18,320 --> 01:12:20,880
Speaker 3: read the full story. But we know today that most

1258
01:12:20,880 --> 01:12:23,439
Speaker 3: people read headlines or watch video, and so we feel

1259
01:12:23,439 --> 01:12:27,120
Speaker 3: like we're doing a real service in actually aggregating good

1260
01:12:27,200 --> 01:12:31,200
Speaker 3: journalism beyond our organization, and that's led to enormous growth

1261
01:12:31,320 --> 01:12:31,920
Speaker 3: for the brand.

1262
01:12:32,400 --> 01:12:38,479
Speaker 1: Oh, I just saw some data about millennials, of which

1263
01:12:38,520 --> 01:12:45,400
Speaker 1: I am prioritize and places that aggregate on their behalf

1264
01:12:45,479 --> 01:12:47,880
Speaker 1: like they're looking to save time. I mean, and you know,

1265
01:12:48,120 --> 01:12:50,439
Speaker 1: sort of like if you're just looking this as a business,

1266
01:12:51,439 --> 01:12:53,760
Speaker 1: there's only one demographic group to be talking to right now.

1267
01:12:53,800 --> 01:12:55,920
Speaker 1: It's millennials because they're in the middle of making their

1268
01:12:55,960 --> 01:12:59,320
Speaker 1: habits now and whatever habit they create today, it's just

1269
01:12:59,320 --> 01:13:02,080
Speaker 1: like the boomers. Like you know, as somebody said, everybody

1270
01:13:02,080 --> 01:13:03,840
Speaker 1: over the age of fifty already knows how they're voting

1271
01:13:03,840 --> 01:13:06,920
Speaker 1: in November of twenty twenty six. But every voter under

1272
01:13:06,920 --> 01:13:08,519
Speaker 1: the age of fifty is not even one hundred percent

1273
01:13:08,520 --> 01:13:10,640
Speaker 1: sure they're voting in twenty twenty six. Right, all the

1274
01:13:10,680 --> 01:13:14,360
Speaker 1: persuasion either to show up and vote or to vacillate

1275
01:13:14,400 --> 01:13:17,320
Speaker 1: between the two parties is going to take place among

1276
01:13:17,320 --> 01:13:20,720
Speaker 1: an electorate under the age of fifty and so. And

1277
01:13:21,160 --> 01:13:24,320
Speaker 1: in particular, you know, as a business, you know, who

1278
01:13:24,360 --> 01:13:28,200
Speaker 1: do advertisers want to talk to? Millennials? Their parents? Right now?

1279
01:13:28,360 --> 01:13:31,800
Speaker 1: They're spending That's what parents of kids under eighteen do

1280
01:13:31,960 --> 01:13:35,280
Speaker 1: spend money, right, Advertisers know there're so is a business.

1281
01:13:35,760 --> 01:13:38,000
Speaker 1: It's pretty clear that that if you just focus there,

1282
01:13:38,040 --> 01:13:41,639
Speaker 1: everything else will come right, at least in the short term.

1283
01:13:41,760 --> 01:13:43,639
Speaker 1: Let me ask you about something you brought up earlier,

1284
01:13:43,720 --> 01:13:46,880
Speaker 1: which to me is the is the riddle wrapped into

1285
01:13:46,960 --> 01:13:49,719
Speaker 1: an enigma, which is the fact that we don't control

1286
01:13:49,760 --> 01:13:53,439
Speaker 1: our distribution, and not only that, we're sort of at

1287
01:13:53,560 --> 01:13:58,720
Speaker 1: the whims of essentially five tech companies right metas algorithms

1288
01:13:58,720 --> 01:14:03,720
Speaker 1: on Instagram, you have Ex's algorithms, you have Google's algorithms,

1289
01:14:04,840 --> 01:14:07,200
Speaker 1: perhaps to a lesser extent, Amazon's when it comes to

1290
01:14:07,200 --> 01:14:10,120
Speaker 1: Twitch and things like that. So it really is in

1291
01:14:10,160 --> 01:14:13,240
Speaker 1: their hands, you know. And I look at this Epstein story,

1292
01:14:13,360 --> 01:14:16,880
Speaker 1: I think this is like the end state of what

1293
01:14:17,040 --> 01:14:21,719
Speaker 1: happens when you have crowdsource interest above facts. Right, there's

1294
01:14:21,800 --> 01:14:24,720
Speaker 1: such everybody's been so spun up about what could be

1295
01:14:24,800 --> 01:14:28,680
Speaker 1: the conspiracy with Epstein, despite really not a lot of

1296
01:14:29,040 --> 01:14:32,200
Speaker 1: facts to support the grand conspiracy that drives this on

1297
01:14:32,280 --> 01:14:36,040
Speaker 1: the right. And yet here we are where everybody's participating

1298
01:14:36,040 --> 01:14:38,519
Speaker 1: in this news cycle, and if you don't, you're not

1299
01:14:38,560 --> 01:14:42,080
Speaker 1: getting read right now right? Which is that to me

1300
01:14:42,240 --> 01:14:44,719
Speaker 1: is the like, how do you how does content get

1301
01:14:44,760 --> 01:14:48,519
Speaker 1: created sometimes on top of itself when you find out, Well,

1302
01:14:48,560 --> 01:14:51,120
Speaker 1: the best way to get YouTube to notice me today

1303
01:14:51,200 --> 01:14:54,000
Speaker 1: is the lead with Epstein hashtag Trump. I mean, my

1304
01:14:54,120 --> 01:14:56,639
Speaker 1: son makes front of his friends who want to get

1305
01:14:56,680 --> 01:15:00,160
Speaker 1: extra attention on TikTok when they hashtag Trump and it

1306
01:15:00,160 --> 01:15:02,760
Speaker 1: has nothing to do with Trump, but it works. Right.

1307
01:15:03,400 --> 01:15:06,400
Speaker 1: That is a broken system, And yet I have no

1308
01:15:06,560 --> 01:15:08,720
Speaker 1: clue how we can get to a point where we'll

1309
01:15:08,720 --> 01:15:11,280
Speaker 1: agree on government getting involved with that.

1310
01:15:12,000 --> 01:15:14,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't disagree that it's a broken system with

1311
01:15:14,840 --> 01:15:17,680
Speaker 3: the ownership of these platforms, and I'll address that.

1312
01:15:17,720 --> 01:15:22,760
Speaker 2: I do disagree that. I believe you that maybe the.

1313
01:15:22,640 --> 01:15:26,320
Speaker 3: Epstein conspiracy theories were spun up by these algorithms and

1314
01:15:26,360 --> 01:15:29,040
Speaker 3: the way the information ecosystem works. But it's a very

1315
01:15:29,120 --> 01:15:32,200
Speaker 3: legitimate story that only blew up because this president is

1316
01:15:32,320 --> 01:15:34,120
Speaker 3: clearly covering up something.

1317
01:15:34,840 --> 01:15:38,639
Speaker 1: Look, and I agree with that, I hear you, But no, no, no, no,

1318
01:15:38,880 --> 01:15:42,080
Speaker 1: but this why is it this an obsession with the right,

1319
01:15:42,120 --> 01:15:44,360
Speaker 1: Because there's a group on the right that believes in

1320
01:15:44,400 --> 01:15:48,080
Speaker 1: some bizarre pedophilias. You know that there's this elite group

1321
01:15:48,120 --> 01:15:51,760
Speaker 1: of pedophiles that run the world. Right, Like, that's where

1322
01:15:51,800 --> 01:15:55,240
Speaker 1: I'm like, this is why Trump can't kill it? Right,

1323
01:15:55,560 --> 01:15:58,360
Speaker 1: this is one conspiracy that's bigger than him, and he

1324
01:15:58,400 --> 01:16:01,559
Speaker 1: borrowed it. I always said he built his magabase, some

1325
01:16:01,600 --> 01:16:04,680
Speaker 1: of it is his with his populist economic message that

1326
01:16:04,720 --> 01:16:08,720
Speaker 1: it's real, and then he borrowed the crazies who used

1327
01:16:08,760 --> 01:16:11,400
Speaker 1: to be Ron Paul people. It was Ron Paul people

1328
01:16:11,439 --> 01:16:15,519
Speaker 1: and ranfall people that lived in this other world at times.

1329
01:16:17,000 --> 01:16:19,200
Speaker 1: And then Trump just scooped him all up because he

1330
01:16:19,200 --> 01:16:22,120
Speaker 1: said why not, right, he knew how to wink and

1331
01:16:22,240 --> 01:16:25,040
Speaker 1: nod them, and it was It's been a powerful force

1332
01:16:25,080 --> 01:16:27,360
Speaker 1: for him, Don't get me wrong, But that's why I

1333
01:16:27,400 --> 01:16:30,559
Speaker 1: get That's where it's like, that's how this has gotten

1334
01:16:31,000 --> 01:16:34,720
Speaker 1: sort of spun out of control. Is this is the

1335
01:16:34,800 --> 01:16:39,240
Speaker 1: root of this conspiracy? Yes, hard stop Jeffrey Epstein bad

1336
01:16:39,600 --> 01:16:42,040
Speaker 1: and what he did was bad and how the government

1337
01:16:42,080 --> 01:16:45,559
Speaker 1: did I'm not disputing that. But why are Democrats all

1338
01:16:45,560 --> 01:16:48,080
Speaker 1: excited about this right now? For one reason's.

1339
01:16:47,640 --> 01:16:51,200
Speaker 2: Excited about it? Why is the president like a faral.

1340
01:16:51,400 --> 01:16:53,679
Speaker 1: In a corner right now that rode out He's afraid

1341
01:16:53,680 --> 01:16:56,080
Speaker 1: to admit he's friends with Jeffery Epstein. I don't know,

1342
01:16:57,479 --> 01:16:57,880
Speaker 1: I hear you.

1343
01:16:58,240 --> 01:17:00,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't think Democrats are excited about this.

1344
01:17:00,120 --> 01:17:03,920
Speaker 3: I think that we have an actual sexual predator in

1345
01:17:03,960 --> 01:17:06,880
Speaker 3: the White House who now is super scared about what

1346
01:17:07,080 --> 01:17:09,680
Speaker 3: references to him or in the files he promised his

1347
01:17:09,720 --> 01:17:10,879
Speaker 3: supporters he'd released.

1348
01:17:11,000 --> 01:17:13,599
Speaker 2: That's a very legitimate story. You know, that's a journal.

1349
01:17:13,600 --> 01:17:15,960
Speaker 1: I know, I get that that part is the story.

1350
01:17:15,960 --> 01:17:17,280
Speaker 1: It's sort of like, how did we get here?

1351
01:17:17,360 --> 01:17:19,960
Speaker 2: Spiracy theories in general, yes, are given us.

1352
01:17:20,240 --> 01:17:24,280
Speaker 1: What my frustration is we got here it's built on

1353
01:17:24,960 --> 01:17:28,280
Speaker 1: It's built on a theory, not on a set of facts.

1354
01:17:28,320 --> 01:17:33,599
Speaker 1: That's my point. And crowdsourcing and algorithms did it. That's

1355
01:17:33,640 --> 01:17:34,320
Speaker 1: that's my point.

1356
01:17:35,320 --> 01:17:38,479
Speaker 3: Yes, And then that won't stop anytime soon, right, That's

1357
01:17:38,520 --> 01:17:40,800
Speaker 3: and I think about this all the time, like if

1358
01:17:40,840 --> 01:17:44,120
Speaker 3: there were you know, a blue sky, uh, you know,

1359
01:17:44,280 --> 01:17:46,639
Speaker 3: not return to normalcy, but a new type of normal

1360
01:17:46,640 --> 01:17:49,640
Speaker 3: where we have government and institutions that are there to

1361
01:17:49,760 --> 01:17:50,960
Speaker 3: protect the common good.

1362
01:17:51,040 --> 01:17:52,840
Speaker 2: And how do we collectively define that?

1363
01:17:53,680 --> 01:17:56,559
Speaker 3: How are we going to regulate big tech and the

1364
01:17:56,600 --> 01:18:00,400
Speaker 3: information ecosystem? Because the slippery slope that we have gone down,

1365
01:18:00,760 --> 01:18:03,320
Speaker 3: right is such that it really just is whoever's in

1366
01:18:03,479 --> 01:18:07,440
Speaker 3: power is going to protect themselves and their closest allies

1367
01:18:07,560 --> 01:18:12,640
Speaker 3: and cronies, and that's why there is such enormous mistrust.

1368
01:18:12,800 --> 01:18:17,080
Speaker 3: Like our audience is predominantly millennial and gen Z we

1369
01:18:17,200 --> 01:18:20,160
Speaker 3: deliver over one hundred million video use a week on

1370
01:18:20,240 --> 01:18:22,679
Speaker 3: TikTok and sixty five percent of the people who engage

1371
01:18:22,680 --> 01:18:24,160
Speaker 3: with them are under thirty four years old.

1372
01:18:24,560 --> 01:18:27,519
Speaker 2: These are folks who do not trust either party.

1373
01:18:28,439 --> 01:18:33,480
Speaker 3: They are very proudly independent, but they have progressive values

1374
01:18:33,720 --> 01:18:37,560
Speaker 3: and they are really really anti Trump, at least in

1375
01:18:37,640 --> 01:18:40,599
Speaker 3: this moment. We've seen our fastest growth since the election.

1376
01:18:41,160 --> 01:18:44,760
Speaker 3: They want this information and content, and I think that

1377
01:18:44,840 --> 01:18:50,200
Speaker 3: this is I do believe that there is a you know,

1378
01:18:50,240 --> 01:18:53,479
Speaker 3: there is a swell effect with these algorithms too, that

1379
01:18:53,560 --> 01:18:57,720
Speaker 3: the platforms would actually really have to you know, like

1380
01:18:58,240 --> 01:19:02,120
Speaker 3: basically they would need to enact very visible, on the

1381
01:19:02,160 --> 01:19:06,120
Speaker 3: surface censorship to shut down when a story does take over.

1382
01:19:06,560 --> 01:19:09,320
Speaker 1: Sort of all I have done this. I mean, you know,

1383
01:19:09,360 --> 01:19:12,519
Speaker 1: look whatever you think, look at what happened to Daily Caller.

1384
01:19:12,960 --> 01:19:14,920
Speaker 1: I sit there and say, like this could happen to

1385
01:19:14,920 --> 01:19:17,680
Speaker 1: anybody Daily Caller, for better or for worse, figured out

1386
01:19:17,680 --> 01:19:20,720
Speaker 1: the Facebook algorithm and built a pretty good business out

1387
01:19:20,760 --> 01:19:24,200
Speaker 1: of it. Good for that, as did Right and then

1388
01:19:24,240 --> 01:19:28,800
Speaker 1: Facebook said hey, we're out totally, and you're like, wait

1389
01:19:28,800 --> 01:19:29,160
Speaker 1: a minute.

1390
01:19:29,240 --> 01:19:32,479
Speaker 2: They were paying local news to live out of guilt.

1391
01:19:32,520 --> 01:19:34,880
Speaker 1: And then write and I write, Zuckerberg just changed the

1392
01:19:34,960 --> 01:19:39,800
Speaker 1: channel and you're like, oh, and so like that is

1393
01:19:40,120 --> 01:19:45,959
Speaker 1: scary kind of power. And yet these are private companies

1394
01:19:46,680 --> 01:19:49,360
Speaker 1: too at the same time, but that we have somehow

1395
01:19:49,479 --> 01:19:52,960
Speaker 1: let become the arbiter of information in this cust Yes,

1396
01:19:53,000 --> 01:19:53,599
Speaker 1: and Chuck.

1397
01:19:53,400 --> 01:19:55,760
Speaker 3: They are also the ones that are leading the arms

1398
01:19:55,800 --> 01:19:58,920
Speaker 3: race for AI who are all represented on the DAIS.

1399
01:19:59,080 --> 01:20:01,880
Speaker 1: And please don't regulate us right now. Please don't regulate

1400
01:20:01,920 --> 01:20:04,040
Speaker 1: us right now, because not regulating social media was a

1401
01:20:04,040 --> 01:20:06,040
Speaker 1: good idea, correct, I know.

1402
01:20:06,840 --> 01:20:08,519
Speaker 3: And this is how they get away with it. It's

1403
01:20:08,560 --> 01:20:10,639
Speaker 3: it's I mean, it's a it's a race to the bottom.

1404
01:20:10,640 --> 01:20:13,680
Speaker 3: And this is where I actually believe the majority of

1405
01:20:13,680 --> 01:20:16,679
Speaker 3: the American people on the right, left, center, wherever you are,

1406
01:20:17,240 --> 01:20:19,000
Speaker 3: they are onto this. And I don't think it is

1407
01:20:19,000 --> 01:20:22,280
Speaker 3: about right versus left, or conservative versus progressive, I agree

1408
01:20:22,760 --> 01:20:23,280
Speaker 3: at all.

1409
01:20:23,439 --> 01:20:24,320
Speaker 2: I think that it is.

1410
01:20:24,280 --> 01:20:28,920
Speaker 3: Really about people versus corporate interests. It's about corruption versus

1411
01:20:29,000 --> 01:20:32,720
Speaker 3: transparency and integrity, and I think that it is it's

1412
01:20:32,800 --> 01:20:35,960
Speaker 3: going to be a real wreck Like I think we're

1413
01:20:36,000 --> 01:20:38,639
Speaker 3: going through a reckoning. It's like will we come out

1414
01:20:38,680 --> 01:20:40,840
Speaker 3: on the other side as a society or not?

1415
01:20:40,960 --> 01:20:41,960
Speaker 2: As the real question.

1416
01:20:42,960 --> 01:20:47,320
Speaker 3: But yes, they have unfettered power and access to power,

1417
01:20:47,320 --> 01:20:50,360
Speaker 3: and they are very willing to pay to play, which

1418
01:20:50,479 --> 01:20:51,799
Speaker 3: is the setup of this president.

1419
01:20:52,040 --> 01:20:54,439
Speaker 1: No, it's interesting. I think that the what what is it?

1420
01:20:55,080 --> 01:20:57,240
Speaker 1: I think we're actually watching what is doom? What is

1421
01:20:57,240 --> 01:21:00,639
Speaker 1: going to doom the MAGA movement in the near term

1422
01:21:01,360 --> 01:21:04,479
Speaker 1: is that there's parts of the Mega movement like Steve

1423
01:21:04,560 --> 01:21:08,679
Speaker 1: Bannon who says, I don't like concentrated power, hard stop.

1424
01:21:08,840 --> 01:21:12,599
Speaker 1: He didn't like concentrated liberal power, doesn't like concentrated corporate power.

1425
01:21:12,960 --> 01:21:14,960
Speaker 1: And I think he's true blue about that. I think

1426
01:21:15,000 --> 01:21:17,720
Speaker 1: this is why he was a Lena Khan fan, right like.

1427
01:21:18,920 --> 01:21:22,240
Speaker 1: And there are others who are who simply just paid

1428
01:21:22,240 --> 01:21:24,120
Speaker 1: to be a part of the Mega movement and said, hey,

1429
01:21:25,720 --> 01:21:29,040
Speaker 1: I know the combination to Trump. You know, it's easy

1430
01:21:29,080 --> 01:21:31,559
Speaker 1: to get to him, and he can manipulate his base

1431
01:21:31,600 --> 01:21:34,120
Speaker 1: to support whatever I need to do. And I do

1432
01:21:34,200 --> 01:21:38,599
Speaker 1: think the tension of between these two sub movements inside

1433
01:21:38,640 --> 01:21:41,439
Speaker 1: Mega eventually is going to eat each other, right, every

1434
01:21:41,479 --> 01:21:43,920
Speaker 1: movement this happens, right, at some point it becomes a racket,

1435
01:21:44,160 --> 01:21:47,320
Speaker 1: and people within the movement see that it's a racket.

1436
01:21:48,280 --> 01:21:51,120
Speaker 1: But let me ask you this, how powerless do you

1437
01:21:51,160 --> 01:21:54,480
Speaker 1: feel sometimes to these tech algorithms.

1438
01:21:55,200 --> 01:21:56,120
Speaker 2: It's a good question.

1439
01:21:58,640 --> 01:22:01,000
Speaker 3: We really care a lot of career from day one

1440
01:22:01,040 --> 01:22:03,439
Speaker 3: about being nimble. That's really important. Right, we saw what

1441
01:22:03,479 --> 01:22:06,320
Speaker 3: happened to traditional journalism, what is broadcast, print, etc. You

1442
01:22:06,320 --> 01:22:08,600
Speaker 3: can't rely on one business model, one revenue stream, and

1443
01:22:08,680 --> 01:22:10,360
Speaker 3: certainly not one distribution platform.

1444
01:22:10,640 --> 01:22:11,200
Speaker 2: You just can't.

1445
01:22:11,240 --> 01:22:13,439
Speaker 3: So I often say that it's a lot of people

1446
01:22:13,520 --> 01:22:15,599
Speaker 3: ask why why don't we buy up old media and

1447
01:22:15,720 --> 01:22:18,000
Speaker 3: you know, revitalize it, And like, by the time we

1448
01:22:18,040 --> 01:22:19,839
Speaker 3: would retrofit it for this moment, it will.

1449
01:22:19,640 --> 01:22:21,080
Speaker 2: Have changed fourteen times.

1450
01:22:21,200 --> 01:22:23,679
Speaker 3: It's so much easier to start from scratch and be nimble,

1451
01:22:24,080 --> 01:22:27,160
Speaker 3: And so we really care about not being reliant on

1452
01:22:27,200 --> 01:22:29,719
Speaker 3: any one platform. We've seen our fastest growth on TikTok.

1453
01:22:30,000 --> 01:22:32,639
Speaker 3: TikTok could turn into state run media over the next.

1454
01:22:32,479 --> 01:22:36,200
Speaker 1: Second, disappear right in six months, right, Like I really, yeah,

1455
01:22:36,439 --> 01:22:39,599
Speaker 1: are you already thinking about that and like planning. Okay,

1456
01:22:39,640 --> 01:22:43,240
Speaker 1: if TikTok goes away or if the algorithm radically changes

1457
01:22:43,280 --> 01:22:45,080
Speaker 1: against us, what do we do?

1458
01:22:45,760 --> 01:22:48,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, and so one of the things that we've

1459
01:22:48,479 --> 01:22:51,600
Speaker 3: we've done from the beginning is really really really emphasize

1460
01:22:51,640 --> 01:22:54,880
Speaker 3: our newsletters, our free newsletters nationally and locally, because that

1461
01:22:54,960 --> 01:22:56,920
Speaker 3: is the way we can build a direct relationship with

1462
01:22:56,960 --> 01:23:00,240
Speaker 3: our audiences, which is really important. That means we can

1463
01:23:00,280 --> 01:23:03,719
Speaker 3: communicate with them regardless of what Meta does or YouTube

1464
01:23:03,800 --> 01:23:06,240
Speaker 3: does to their algorithms or TikTok if it goes away.

1465
01:23:07,400 --> 01:23:10,800
Speaker 3: SMS is another way trying to get folks, younger folks

1466
01:23:10,800 --> 01:23:14,040
Speaker 3: in particular, who don't sign up for email, to sign

1467
01:23:14,160 --> 01:23:17,240
Speaker 3: up for news alerts or different ways of engagement through

1468
01:23:17,280 --> 01:23:20,160
Speaker 3: text message. It's hard, you know this, It's hard to

1469
01:23:20,200 --> 01:23:22,439
Speaker 3: convert people off the platforms don't want you to move

1470
01:23:22,479 --> 01:23:26,520
Speaker 3: anyone off the platforms, so they make it intentionally difficult.

1471
01:23:26,760 --> 01:23:29,160
Speaker 2: So yes, I'm very worried about that.

1472
01:23:29,439 --> 01:23:32,960
Speaker 3: I think where I don't lose sleep over it is

1473
01:23:33,000 --> 01:23:36,040
Speaker 3: that in just the years that I have been at

1474
01:23:36,320 --> 01:23:39,160
Speaker 3: working at the intersection of politics and media, the ecosystem

1475
01:23:39,200 --> 01:23:41,920
Speaker 3: has changed a million times, and so it's going to

1476
01:23:42,000 --> 01:23:45,639
Speaker 3: keep changing. I do think what is scary right now

1477
01:23:45,800 --> 01:23:46,880
Speaker 3: is the asymmetry of.

1478
01:23:46,880 --> 01:23:49,280
Speaker 2: Ownership of the massive platforms.

1479
01:23:49,640 --> 01:23:52,040
Speaker 3: I would really like to see more people who would

1480
01:23:52,120 --> 01:23:56,759
Speaker 3: never capitulate or pay to play with this administration owning

1481
01:23:56,840 --> 01:23:58,000
Speaker 3: and buying and.

1482
01:23:57,840 --> 01:23:59,559
Speaker 2: Building more powerful media.

1483
01:23:59,600 --> 01:24:02,800
Speaker 3: And for sure, it's an immense investment, but it's one

1484
01:24:02,880 --> 01:24:05,160
Speaker 3: that the Peter Tiels of the world seem to really

1485
01:24:05,240 --> 01:24:09,080
Speaker 3: understand the value of. And so I often say this,

1486
01:24:09,160 --> 01:24:14,240
Speaker 3: we have some really wonderful values aligned billionaires who support

1487
01:24:14,360 --> 01:24:17,840
Speaker 3: artwork and are on my cap table. I wish there

1488
01:24:17,880 --> 01:24:19,400
Speaker 3: were more of them, and I wish that they will

1489
01:24:19,439 --> 01:24:22,320
Speaker 3: double down and understand that if you don't own the

1490
01:24:22,360 --> 01:24:25,880
Speaker 3: distribution channels, now you are at the whim of them.

1491
01:24:26,200 --> 01:24:29,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, I always sit there the tyranny of

1492
01:24:29,040 --> 01:24:31,760
Speaker 1: the billionaire, right, which is there? I always say, are

1493
01:24:31,760 --> 01:24:34,160
Speaker 1: they're good billionaires or bad billionaires? No, they're just billionaires.

1494
01:24:34,200 --> 01:24:36,680
Speaker 1: But I have noticed I feel like the ones that

1495
01:24:36,720 --> 01:24:38,880
Speaker 1: inherited their money are a bit more generous than the

1496
01:24:38,920 --> 01:24:42,680
Speaker 1: ones that didn't. That's that's been my experience. I don't

1497
01:24:42,680 --> 01:24:44,120
Speaker 1: know if you've had a similar experience.

1498
01:24:44,200 --> 01:24:46,200
Speaker 2: That has very much been my experience.

1499
01:24:46,560 --> 01:24:52,559
Speaker 1: Yeah, put your democratic strategist hat on, how did the

1500
01:24:52,640 --> 01:24:56,599
Speaker 1: Democratic Party go from owning new media in two thousand

1501
01:24:56,600 --> 01:25:03,000
Speaker 1: and eight two essentially losing it almost completely by twenty

1502
01:25:03,040 --> 01:25:06,800
Speaker 1: twenty four. You were there, you saw in so many

1503
01:25:06,880 --> 01:25:10,799
Speaker 1: different capacities. But if you were, you know now looking

1504
01:25:10,840 --> 01:25:15,160
Speaker 1: back right where what went wrong? Where what fork in

1505
01:25:15,200 --> 01:25:21,559
Speaker 1: the road wasn't taken? Or what bet was misplaced? You know,

1506
01:25:21,600 --> 01:25:25,559
Speaker 1: how would you assess how they went from owning new

1507
01:25:25,600 --> 01:25:28,920
Speaker 1: media in OA with Obama and arguably four to two

1508
01:25:29,360 --> 01:25:31,880
Speaker 1: with Dean and you know that that it was, you know,

1509
01:25:32,240 --> 01:25:35,400
Speaker 1: you saw the early advantage happening as early as then.

1510
01:25:36,800 --> 01:25:38,559
Speaker 1: How they lose it, how they left lose it?

1511
01:25:39,439 --> 01:25:42,360
Speaker 3: Think you just answered your own question by the examples

1512
01:25:42,400 --> 01:25:46,280
Speaker 3: you stated. It comes down to leadership. I worked on

1513
01:25:46,320 --> 01:25:50,200
Speaker 3: the Obama campaign, and that was a campaign that really

1514
01:25:50,240 --> 01:25:54,600
Speaker 3: empowered young people to do things on platforms. Leadership of

1515
01:25:54,640 --> 01:25:59,879
Speaker 3: that campaign were never on or understood because they value

1516
01:26:01,160 --> 01:26:06,360
Speaker 3: the changing ecosystem. And also there is an underdog element, right,

1517
01:26:06,720 --> 01:26:10,040
Speaker 3: So Obama was very much the underdog in two thousand

1518
01:26:10,080 --> 01:26:13,280
Speaker 3: and seven with a.

1519
01:26:12,880 --> 01:26:14,040
Speaker 2: Foreign name, and.

1520
01:26:16,040 --> 01:26:19,120
Speaker 3: You know, when you're the underdog, you don't have really

1521
01:26:19,160 --> 01:26:23,200
Speaker 3: anything to lose. And Trump was also the underdog, and

1522
01:26:23,680 --> 01:26:29,000
Speaker 3: I watched his campaign in twenty fifteen really closely because

1523
01:26:29,000 --> 01:26:31,280
Speaker 3: I was at the time running the digital program for.

1524
01:26:31,400 --> 01:26:33,799
Speaker 2: Priorities USA, which was the biggest super pac.

1525
01:26:33,680 --> 01:26:39,559
Speaker 3: On the left, courting Hillary Clinton and opposing eventually Donald

1526
01:26:39,560 --> 01:26:43,440
Speaker 3: Trump the nominee. And you know, they none of the

1527
01:26:43,479 --> 01:26:46,439
Speaker 3: platforms like Facebook et cetera had transparency tools, right, Those

1528
01:26:46,439 --> 01:26:51,160
Speaker 3: all came after that election because of the Russian interference

1529
01:26:51,200 --> 01:26:54,439
Speaker 3: and things of that nature. And so the only way

1530
01:26:54,479 --> 01:26:56,879
Speaker 3: we were able to kind of know what other campaigns

1531
01:26:56,920 --> 01:27:02,000
Speaker 3: were doing on platforms like Facebook was through the account execs, right,

1532
01:27:02,360 --> 01:27:04,960
Speaker 3: all of us worked with them, and so over you know,

1533
01:27:05,439 --> 01:27:09,240
Speaker 3: drinks in DC, I would hear how the Trump campaign

1534
01:27:09,479 --> 01:27:14,679
Speaker 3: was really really leaning in to Facebook's algorithms in ways

1535
01:27:14,760 --> 01:27:16,680
Speaker 3: that the Clinton campaign was not.

1536
01:27:17,080 --> 01:27:19,560
Speaker 2: And it was in part they used.

1537
01:27:19,280 --> 01:27:22,880
Speaker 3: Facebook to find his face and build a work us

1538
01:27:22,880 --> 01:27:25,479
Speaker 3: and understand, right the same way he uses his weave

1539
01:27:25,560 --> 01:27:28,920
Speaker 3: to understand what riles his audience up. They were throwing

1540
01:27:28,920 --> 01:27:30,920
Speaker 3: a lot of spaghetti at the wall on Facebook and.

1541
01:27:31,120 --> 01:27:34,280
Speaker 1: Line and they were cheap experiments at the time, very cheap.

1542
01:27:34,120 --> 01:27:36,400
Speaker 3: Experiments, and they were and you know, and there were

1543
01:27:36,439 --> 01:27:38,719
Speaker 3: lookalike models, so you could continue to find more people

1544
01:27:38,720 --> 01:27:39,679
Speaker 3: that engage with their content.

1545
01:27:39,720 --> 01:27:40,559
Speaker 2: Those still exist.

1546
01:27:41,280 --> 01:27:43,040
Speaker 3: And so I was learning all this and I was

1547
01:27:43,040 --> 01:27:48,000
Speaker 3: bringing alarm bells, and you know the honestly, I chalk

1548
01:27:48,040 --> 01:27:51,240
Speaker 3: a lot of it up to consultants, consultants.

1549
01:27:50,680 --> 01:27:54,679
Speaker 1: Generational consultants to what mad made more money with some

1550
01:27:54,960 --> 01:27:59,000
Speaker 1: older legacy media, linear media or all the other stuff.

1551
01:27:59,000 --> 01:28:02,240
Speaker 3: And we got the bites that I had over those years.

1552
01:28:02,280 --> 01:28:03,559
Speaker 3: I mean, the things that I'll make it into a

1553
01:28:03,560 --> 01:28:06,160
Speaker 3: book someday. But like one person literally telling looking me

1554
01:28:06,160 --> 01:28:08,120
Speaker 3: in the eye and being why would you criticize the

1555
01:28:08,160 --> 01:28:10,640
Speaker 3: thing that pays for my child's college. I was like,

1556
01:28:11,880 --> 01:28:14,400
Speaker 3: I don't know why you're here, but I'm here to

1557
01:28:14,439 --> 01:28:18,400
Speaker 3: try to create and save the democracy. So I do

1558
01:28:18,520 --> 01:28:24,640
Speaker 3: think that the consultant culture on the left really strangled innovation, adaptation, evolution,

1559
01:28:25,640 --> 01:28:27,240
Speaker 3: and I still think it's a problem.

1560
01:28:27,280 --> 01:28:29,880
Speaker 1: To be honest, I would argue that culminated with Biden

1561
01:28:29,960 --> 01:28:33,479
Speaker 1: twenty twenty four, right, the ultimate financy hope, I mean,

1562
01:28:33,640 --> 01:28:38,040
Speaker 1: the ultimate sort of old consultant driven. I mean, I

1563
01:28:38,120 --> 01:28:41,800
Speaker 1: got to think that's the last of that generation, but

1564
01:28:42,280 --> 01:28:42,680
Speaker 1: maybe not.

1565
01:28:43,200 --> 01:28:46,880
Speaker 3: I've seen and heard too much to believe that. I

1566
01:28:46,920 --> 01:28:50,120
Speaker 3: hope that you're right, Jock, because it's a real problem.

1567
01:28:50,520 --> 01:28:55,480
Speaker 3: It's a real problem because it has it has prevented

1568
01:28:56,280 --> 01:29:00,080
Speaker 3: democrats on the left from actually communicating to audiences. And

1569
01:29:00,120 --> 01:29:02,120
Speaker 3: I think what's going to happen is similar to what

1570
01:29:02,200 --> 01:29:04,920
Speaker 3: happened with Obama. It's going to be it's going to

1571
01:29:04,960 --> 01:29:10,840
Speaker 3: be the transformational candidates who actually are native to where

1572
01:29:10,880 --> 01:29:14,879
Speaker 3: they are millennial or they're young gen X, like, they're

1573
01:29:14,920 --> 01:29:18,520
Speaker 3: the ones who actually can adapt and can communicate authentically

1574
01:29:18,960 --> 01:29:21,360
Speaker 3: on these platforms and where people are. We see it

1575
01:29:21,400 --> 01:29:23,680
Speaker 3: with Pete Boutage Edge, we see it with AOC, We

1576
01:29:23,720 --> 01:29:27,040
Speaker 3: see it with Zoran Like, we are starting to see

1577
01:29:27,080 --> 01:29:29,840
Speaker 3: a new bench of talent where they don't actually have

1578
01:29:29,960 --> 01:29:34,639
Speaker 3: to try to figure out the current media ecosystem. They

1579
01:29:34,680 --> 01:29:37,080
Speaker 3: are native to it and they're.

1580
01:29:36,880 --> 01:29:38,800
Speaker 1: Also forced into it. I mean, you just brought up

1581
01:29:38,800 --> 01:29:42,320
Speaker 1: three examples of people that the mainstream consultant community would

1582
01:29:42,360 --> 01:29:45,719
Speaker 1: tell these people get in line, go run for governor

1583
01:29:45,760 --> 01:29:48,679
Speaker 1: of Indiana before you run for president. Pete, go go

1584
01:29:48,760 --> 01:29:51,320
Speaker 1: run for attorney general before you run for mayor of

1585
01:29:51,320 --> 01:29:53,559
Speaker 1: New York City, Zorn. You know what I mean. And

1586
01:29:53,640 --> 01:29:56,840
Speaker 1: so in some ways, what as they say, you know,

1587
01:29:56,880 --> 01:29:59,679
Speaker 1: the mother of all invention is necessity, right, and innovation

1588
01:30:00,200 --> 01:30:02,880
Speaker 1: make the same case where the innovative cana. Why did

1589
01:30:02,880 --> 01:30:04,920
Speaker 1: Donald Trump have to do what he did because Fox

1590
01:30:04,960 --> 01:30:07,439
Speaker 1: wasn't giving him any airtime at the time. Right, he

1591
01:30:07,600 --> 01:30:10,880
Speaker 1: had to find alternative ways to break through. At the time.

1592
01:30:11,320 --> 01:30:15,200
Speaker 1: What was a Fox controlled conservative ecosystem? It is less

1593
01:30:15,200 --> 01:30:19,240
Speaker 1: Fox controlled today? Right? Trump forced Fox to go his direction.

1594
01:30:19,720 --> 01:30:23,040
Speaker 1: He didn't go the Fox direction. It's fascinating that when

1595
01:30:23,080 --> 01:30:25,799
Speaker 1: you write the history of this how much he changed

1596
01:30:25,840 --> 01:30:30,760
Speaker 1: Fox versus Fox changing him and and you know which,

1597
01:30:31,680 --> 01:30:34,200
Speaker 1: maybe that should give everybody hope that, hey, guess what,

1598
01:30:34,360 --> 01:30:36,679
Speaker 1: media follows leaders if there's a leader.

1599
01:30:37,520 --> 01:30:38,360
Speaker 2: I think that that's right.

1600
01:30:38,760 --> 01:30:41,759
Speaker 3: That's why I don't really spend too much time worrying

1601
01:30:41,840 --> 01:30:43,760
Speaker 3: about will the Democratic Party figure this out?

1602
01:30:43,840 --> 01:30:45,280
Speaker 2: Like what is the Democratic Party today?

1603
01:30:45,280 --> 01:30:48,479
Speaker 3: There's a million Democratic parties or anti Democratic parties that would.

1604
01:30:48,320 --> 01:30:50,479
Speaker 1: Marry somebody who thinks we need four parties anyway we

1605
01:30:50,479 --> 01:30:52,400
Speaker 1: would be It would be a lot easier to sort

1606
01:30:52,439 --> 01:30:55,519
Speaker 1: America if we had a four major parties, because it's

1607
01:30:55,600 --> 01:30:57,880
Speaker 1: kind of where America would prefer to be. You kind

1608
01:30:57,880 --> 01:31:00,800
Speaker 1: of see it. They're more comfortable if we had sort

1609
01:31:00,800 --> 01:31:02,439
Speaker 1: of two on the left and two on the right.

1610
01:31:02,479 --> 01:31:03,280
Speaker 1: But here we are.

1611
01:31:03,960 --> 01:31:05,880
Speaker 3: I used to believe that it wasn't possible. Now I

1612
01:31:05,880 --> 01:31:08,960
Speaker 3: believe anything is possible. With how how dark things are getting.

1613
01:31:09,439 --> 01:31:11,200
Speaker 3: I really think it would be difficult for any of

1614
01:31:11,240 --> 01:31:13,479
Speaker 3: us to predict what the political or medi ecosystem looks

1615
01:31:13,520 --> 01:31:14,480
Speaker 3: like in four years.

1616
01:31:14,800 --> 01:31:17,800
Speaker 1: Tarah, I would say this, if you go back and

1617
01:31:17,840 --> 01:31:21,439
Speaker 1: look at the muckrakers of the first decade of this

1618
01:31:21,640 --> 01:31:24,559
Speaker 1: of the twentieth century, the first two decades, then you

1619
01:31:24,600 --> 01:31:28,400
Speaker 1: know what's happening in independent media is very today is

1620
01:31:28,520 --> 01:31:31,200
Speaker 1: very similar to that moment, and it actually is what

1621
01:31:31,320 --> 01:31:35,160
Speaker 1: built the mainstream media that sort of stabilized our country

1622
01:31:35,200 --> 01:31:38,720
Speaker 1: for eighty years. So we're all building something. We're going

1623
01:31:38,800 --> 01:31:42,000
Speaker 1: to figure it out. Yeah, it's a fun conversation. I

1624
01:31:42,000 --> 01:31:43,160
Speaker 1: appreciate it.

1625
01:31:43,160 --> 01:31:43,759
Speaker 2: It was great.

1626
01:31:43,800 --> 01:31:46,599
Speaker 3: And as long as we keep actually listening to people

1627
01:31:46,640 --> 01:31:48,640
Speaker 3: and what their concerns are and making sure those are

1628
01:31:48,640 --> 01:31:50,360
Speaker 3: the stories that got lifted up.

1629
01:31:50,920 --> 01:31:52,760
Speaker 2: I think that that's I think that's how we're going

1630
01:31:52,800 --> 01:31:56,000
Speaker 2: to get back to some place of stability for sure.

1631
01:31:56,080 --> 01:31:58,960
Speaker 1: But I like your north star about your organization, say

1632
01:31:58,960 --> 01:32:02,200
Speaker 1: who you are transparent. At the end of the day,

1633
01:32:02,360 --> 01:32:04,479
Speaker 1: let the consumer make the call. That's what a free

1634
01:32:04,520 --> 01:32:05,120
Speaker 1: market's about.

1635
01:32:06,080 --> 01:32:07,280
Speaker 2: Curierneesroom dot com.

1636
01:32:07,400 --> 01:32:10,720
Speaker 1: Check us out, all right, Terry McGowan, thanks to the ton,

1637
01:32:11,439 --> 01:32:25,200
Speaker 1: Thanks Jim. Look, the media landscape is complicated. I'm fascinated

1638
01:32:25,240 --> 01:32:27,840
Speaker 1: with these things. I do think, as you saw, we

1639
01:32:28,240 --> 01:32:31,120
Speaker 1: agree on a lot of the issues. And at the

1640
01:32:31,240 --> 01:32:35,400
Speaker 1: end of the day, transparency is everything, right, just as

1641
01:32:35,439 --> 01:32:37,479
Speaker 1: long as somebody understands where you stand. That's what I

1642
01:32:37,520 --> 01:32:39,320
Speaker 1: always tell people when you know people are trying to

1643
01:32:39,360 --> 01:32:42,800
Speaker 1: understand my ideology. I'm actually pretty you know, I'm an

1644
01:32:43,120 --> 01:32:46,519
Speaker 1: I will tell you I'm an incrementalist. I kind of

1645
01:32:46,680 --> 01:32:49,040
Speaker 1: I kind of think that you you sort of if

1646
01:32:49,040 --> 01:32:51,120
Speaker 1: you really want to make real progress, you take it one.

1647
01:32:51,680 --> 01:32:56,559
Speaker 1: You know, the small steps forward that are bipartisan and

1648
01:32:57,240 --> 01:33:01,920
Speaker 1: huge majorities are much more durable then speedy steps forward

1649
01:33:02,720 --> 01:33:07,080
Speaker 1: with fragile one party votes. And I'm also somebody who

1650
01:33:07,120 --> 01:33:12,280
Speaker 1: thinks character is destiny, and so you could say that that, yes,

1651
01:33:12,360 --> 01:33:18,640
Speaker 1: I am biased against bad character people guilty, but that

1652
01:33:18,720 --> 01:33:20,960
Speaker 1: transparency I think matters. Right, You've got to know where

1653
01:33:20,960 --> 01:33:23,680
Speaker 1: I'm coming where I'm coming from. I'm also able to

1654
01:33:23,720 --> 01:33:27,840
Speaker 1: compartmentalize my personal and be dispassionate about something and look

1655
01:33:27,880 --> 01:33:29,920
Speaker 1: at something and say, Okay, what's in what's in the

1656
01:33:30,360 --> 01:33:34,640
Speaker 1: what's in the best political interests of X versus the

1657
01:33:34,640 --> 01:33:38,760
Speaker 1: best political inshould supply. Hence why I am more than

1658
01:33:39,400 --> 01:33:42,000
Speaker 1: comfortable saying, you know what, Donald Trump, I'll be thinking

1659
01:33:42,000 --> 01:33:44,080
Speaker 1: about if he really wants to put this Epstein thing

1660
01:33:44,080 --> 01:33:49,559
Speaker 1: to bed, is go feed starving kids in gossip. But

1661
01:33:49,640 --> 01:33:52,000
Speaker 1: let's move on. We'll do a couple of ass chucks here,

1662
01:33:52,080 --> 01:33:58,240
Speaker 1: ask chuck. This first one comes from jame Z and

1663
01:33:58,280 --> 01:33:59,880
Speaker 1: he asks, has the president ever been so part of

1664
01:34:00,080 --> 01:34:02,200
Speaker 1: in an office as to decline federal aid for states

1665
01:34:02,240 --> 01:34:04,600
Speaker 1: simply due to them being run by democratic governor in

1666
01:34:04,640 --> 01:34:07,320
Speaker 1: the state not voting for him in previous elections. Curious

1667
01:34:07,720 --> 01:34:10,080
Speaker 1: what the constituents of Maryland that voted for Trump think

1668
01:34:10,120 --> 01:34:14,400
Speaker 1: of this. As you're hearing this question, James, as you know,

1669
01:34:14,479 --> 01:34:16,040
Speaker 1: I sort of dealt with this. I think this is

1670
01:34:16,080 --> 01:34:19,080
Speaker 1: a one of the one of the most uncomfortable aspects

1671
01:34:19,320 --> 01:34:23,320
Speaker 1: of of sort of this weaponization of government that Trump

1672
01:34:23,360 --> 01:34:27,120
Speaker 1: has has sort of endorsed guys like Rnda Santis and

1673
01:34:27,920 --> 01:34:31,960
Speaker 1: to a lesser extent Greg Abbott have embraced, which is,

1674
01:34:32,080 --> 01:34:34,559
Speaker 1: you know, only governed for your supporters, punish those that

1675
01:34:34,600 --> 01:34:39,000
Speaker 1: don't support you, Punish blue counties, punish blue states. And

1676
01:34:39,040 --> 01:34:41,160
Speaker 1: when do you do it. You do it on things

1677
01:34:41,280 --> 01:34:48,559
Speaker 1: like disaster aid and such. So it's a you know,

1678
01:34:48,640 --> 01:34:54,160
Speaker 1: I find this this virus inside of the Republican Party

1679
01:34:54,320 --> 01:35:00,880
Speaker 1: really really lethal. I think it's it's obviously I think

1680
01:35:00,880 --> 01:35:05,559
Speaker 1: it's bad politics. Like that's what I ultimately if swing

1681
01:35:05,640 --> 01:35:10,120
Speaker 1: voters believe you behave this way and they know the story,

1682
01:35:10,439 --> 01:35:12,439
Speaker 1: like in some cases they may not know the story.

1683
01:35:13,320 --> 01:35:18,599
Speaker 1: Sometimes people don't campaign. You know this to me, I

1684
01:35:18,640 --> 01:35:22,000
Speaker 1: would be making this case, right, I look at politics

1685
01:35:22,040 --> 01:35:23,600
Speaker 1: as I'm you know, I look at politics who I

1686
01:35:23,600 --> 01:35:26,639
Speaker 1: look at anything in media in general? Right, I'm trying

1687
01:35:26,680 --> 01:35:29,200
Speaker 1: to talk to the whitest swath of people, not the

1688
01:35:29,320 --> 01:35:32,720
Speaker 1: narrowest slice of people, and the whitest swath of people, right,

1689
01:35:32,760 --> 01:35:36,280
Speaker 1: which is in you know, disaster aid is usually a

1690
01:35:36,280 --> 01:35:39,880
Speaker 1: political opportunity. I mean to be totally crass and cynical

1691
01:35:39,880 --> 01:35:41,599
Speaker 1: about it. You know why Andy Basheer is a major

1692
01:35:42,400 --> 01:35:44,400
Speaker 1: is seen as a major potential player in twenty twenty

1693
01:35:44,439 --> 01:35:51,120
Speaker 1: eight for the Democrats because he was mister disaster response

1694
01:35:51,160 --> 01:35:54,280
Speaker 1: in Kentucky when they went through a series of horrible tornadoes,

1695
01:35:55,400 --> 01:35:57,919
Speaker 1: and he went in a partisan He was the governor,

1696
01:35:58,120 --> 01:36:00,439
Speaker 1: and he was a fellow citizen, and he went there

1697
01:36:00,479 --> 01:36:03,599
Speaker 1: and he showed empathy, and he made sure that every

1698
01:36:03,680 --> 01:36:07,720
Speaker 1: resource that the state had was there. There was never

1699
01:36:07,760 --> 01:36:11,960
Speaker 1: any politics with it. I go back. You know, the

1700
01:36:11,960 --> 01:36:15,720
Speaker 1: reason Rick Scott's was able to win narrow races for

1701
01:36:15,760 --> 01:36:19,320
Speaker 1: the Senate is because of his behavior during disaster response,

1702
01:36:19,680 --> 01:36:23,360
Speaker 1: where he viewed it in a nonpartisan way. He viewed it.

1703
01:36:23,479 --> 01:36:26,439
Speaker 1: He sort of he saw at the time what was

1704
01:36:26,479 --> 01:36:30,200
Speaker 1: good politics for Jeb Bush, which is just simply do

1705
01:36:30,320 --> 01:36:34,240
Speaker 1: your job when it comes to disaster relief. So I

1706
01:36:34,240 --> 01:36:41,440
Speaker 1: think it's terrible politics. I'm surprised at how little Democrats

1707
01:36:41,439 --> 01:36:43,960
Speaker 1: have tried to use this issue. I don't see it

1708
01:36:44,000 --> 01:36:47,000
Speaker 1: in Florida with DeSantis, who's done it quite a few times.

1709
01:36:47,439 --> 01:36:50,280
Speaker 1: I don't see it very often. You know, you're bringing

1710
01:36:50,320 --> 01:36:52,360
Speaker 1: it up here, But I think it's I think it's

1711
01:36:52,400 --> 01:36:55,519
Speaker 1: an original sin of an elected official. Right at the

1712
01:36:55,600 --> 01:36:57,920
Speaker 1: end of the day, we expect you to be partisan

1713
01:36:58,000 --> 01:37:01,520
Speaker 1: during the campaign, and then you're supposed to govern everybody

1714
01:37:01,960 --> 01:37:04,120
Speaker 1: you're supposed to you know, the standard thing I want

1715
01:37:04,160 --> 01:37:06,280
Speaker 1: to hear in a victory speech is you know, to

1716
01:37:06,320 --> 01:37:08,360
Speaker 1: those of you that supported me, thank you. To those

1717
01:37:08,400 --> 01:37:10,360
Speaker 1: of you didn't, I'm going to be your senator to

1718
01:37:10,560 --> 01:37:12,160
Speaker 1: or I'm going to be your governor too, or I'm

1719
01:37:12,200 --> 01:37:15,280
Speaker 1: going to be your congressman too. You don't hear that

1720
01:37:15,280 --> 01:37:17,720
Speaker 1: out of this president. You've never heard that out of

1721
01:37:18,080 --> 01:37:22,120
Speaker 1: Governor DeSantis. And there's I worry that this is a

1722
01:37:22,240 --> 01:37:27,120
Speaker 1: new strain that that is just sort of taking hold

1723
01:37:27,160 --> 01:37:30,800
Speaker 1: inside the party right ever, show weakness right own the

1724
01:37:30,840 --> 01:37:33,960
Speaker 1: Libs all the time, even when we even in moments

1725
01:37:34,000 --> 01:37:35,680
Speaker 1: where you don't think it's a good time to do that.

1726
01:37:36,600 --> 01:37:41,320
Speaker 1: So no, I I this has been This has been

1727
01:37:41,360 --> 01:37:43,719
Speaker 1: a shock to me. You know, now, why is Trump

1728
01:37:43,800 --> 01:37:46,639
Speaker 1: behaving this way? Because in his own mind he thinks

1729
01:37:46,680 --> 01:37:48,800
Speaker 1: what he'd you know, oh, the people in Puerto Rico

1730
01:37:48,840 --> 01:37:51,559
Speaker 1: were ungrateful right when he threw the paper tiles at

1731
01:37:51,600 --> 01:37:54,639
Speaker 1: him and all this stuff. He also views the government

1732
01:37:54,680 --> 01:37:58,559
Speaker 1: as his government. And so if you're not effusive in

1733
01:37:58,600 --> 01:38:02,360
Speaker 1: your praise of him and thanking him for essentially following

1734
01:38:02,400 --> 01:38:06,680
Speaker 1: the law, but in this case, I guess we have

1735
01:38:06,760 --> 01:38:08,679
Speaker 1: to thank him for following the law since he won't

1736
01:38:08,680 --> 01:38:11,280
Speaker 1: always follow the law when it comes to these things.

1737
01:38:11,280 --> 01:38:14,560
Speaker 1: But it's a it's it's a head scratching place. I

1738
01:38:15,400 --> 01:38:17,680
Speaker 1: I just think this is bad long term politics that

1739
01:38:17,760 --> 01:38:19,960
Speaker 1: I do think this is eventually going to bite these

1740
01:38:21,400 --> 01:38:23,240
Speaker 1: is going to bite them on this. I just don't

1741
01:38:23,240 --> 01:38:26,200
Speaker 1: know when the bite actually happens. All right, Next question

1742
01:38:26,280 --> 01:38:29,240
Speaker 1: comes from Josh b If. I was back in the

1743
01:38:29,280 --> 01:38:31,680
Speaker 1: mix in the first four of nominating calendar, what's your

1744
01:38:31,680 --> 01:38:34,200
Speaker 1: thoughts on this lineup? Nevada coccus first, New Hampshire second,

1745
01:38:34,200 --> 01:38:38,080
Speaker 1: Iowa primary not caucus, third, and sc in a cleanup spot. Look,

1746
01:38:38,439 --> 01:38:43,200
Speaker 1: you know, I have no sort of you know, I I.

1747
01:38:43,360 --> 01:38:43,599
Speaker 2: Was a.

1748
01:38:45,320 --> 01:38:48,040
Speaker 1: Here's how I'll describe it. I thought the first four

1749
01:38:48,720 --> 01:38:51,320
Speaker 1: worked in the following ways, and I think it works

1750
01:38:51,360 --> 01:38:53,800
Speaker 1: for both sides of the app Iowa, you know, for

1751
01:38:54,200 --> 01:38:56,879
Speaker 1: it's sort of like there. Think of it as different tests,

1752
01:38:57,280 --> 01:39:00,519
Speaker 1: right if this were reality showing. Hey, right, everything's a

1753
01:39:00,560 --> 01:39:03,760
Speaker 1: reality show now, So you know you have these you

1754
01:39:03,800 --> 01:39:05,960
Speaker 1: have these tests if you want to be the voice,

1755
01:39:06,080 --> 01:39:08,639
Speaker 1: you have these tests. If you want to be survivor, Well,

1756
01:39:09,200 --> 01:39:10,840
Speaker 1: these were tests if you want to be leader of

1757
01:39:10,880 --> 01:39:13,920
Speaker 1: your party. Right. Test one in Iowa was can you

1758
01:39:14,120 --> 01:39:16,880
Speaker 1: organize right to win the Iowa caucuses? You got to

1759
01:39:16,920 --> 01:39:19,960
Speaker 1: organize in all ninety nine counties. You can't just try

1760
01:39:20,000 --> 01:39:22,360
Speaker 1: to win a bunch of voters in Des Moines and

1761
01:39:22,439 --> 01:39:24,519
Speaker 1: hope you can win the caucuses. It just isn't how

1762
01:39:24,560 --> 01:39:27,360
Speaker 1: it works. So really sort of like, hey, can you

1763
01:39:28,040 --> 01:39:31,280
Speaker 1: spread yourself out? Can you organize in ninety nine counties?

1764
01:39:31,320 --> 01:39:34,280
Speaker 1: That are some places going to be super rural, some

1765
01:39:34,280 --> 01:39:36,880
Speaker 1: places are going to be super antagonistic to your style

1766
01:39:36,880 --> 01:39:40,040
Speaker 1: of politics. But can you do it right? That's test one?

1767
01:39:40,080 --> 01:39:43,439
Speaker 1: In New Hampshire, this is the first time you get tested. Hey,

1768
01:39:43,439 --> 01:39:46,519
Speaker 1: can you win independent voters? Over right? The largest block

1769
01:39:46,560 --> 01:39:50,600
Speaker 1: of voters are independence. They can pick either parties primary

1770
01:39:51,240 --> 01:39:54,400
Speaker 1: and you know you're met. Can you can you show

1771
01:39:54,600 --> 01:39:57,360
Speaker 1: enough independence from your party to convince independence? You're a

1772
01:39:57,400 --> 01:40:01,360
Speaker 1: pretty good choice. South Carolin, well, this is a test

1773
01:40:01,400 --> 01:40:05,600
Speaker 1: of your base. For Democrats, it's African American base. For

1774
01:40:05,720 --> 01:40:09,040
Speaker 1: Republicans it's the evangelical base, right. But there are two

1775
01:40:09,080 --> 01:40:14,160
Speaker 1: specific pieces of each coalition's base. So it's a test

1776
01:40:14,240 --> 01:40:18,320
Speaker 1: which one of you best is able to motivate that constituency.

1777
01:40:18,360 --> 01:40:22,599
Speaker 1: What constituents does that constituency trust you? Right? In South Carolina,

1778
01:40:22,600 --> 01:40:25,320
Speaker 1: by the way primaries played out, that way, Democratic side,

1779
01:40:25,400 --> 01:40:27,639
Speaker 1: it's the candidate that best connects with African American voters

1780
01:40:27,680 --> 01:40:30,160
Speaker 1: who usually wins. On the Republican side, it is the

1781
01:40:30,160 --> 01:40:35,719
Speaker 1: candidate that best connects with evangelicals that usually wins, usually

1782
01:40:35,720 --> 01:40:38,479
Speaker 1: Trump's military veterans. As John McCain found out the hard

1783
01:40:38,479 --> 01:40:40,680
Speaker 1: way in two thousand and he only won it the

1784
01:40:40,720 --> 01:40:43,200
Speaker 1: one time he did win it because the field was

1785
01:40:43,240 --> 01:40:46,440
Speaker 1: so crowded. He never got fifty percent. And then Nevada

1786
01:40:47,160 --> 01:40:52,600
Speaker 1: is arguably the first test with both Latino voters for

1787
01:40:52,680 --> 01:40:56,160
Speaker 1: both parties and for Mormon voters in particular for the

1788
01:40:56,200 --> 01:41:00,800
Speaker 1: Republican Party. So, which is an important constituency out in

1789
01:41:00,840 --> 01:41:04,960
Speaker 1: some of these Western swing states, including Arizona. So I

1790
01:41:05,280 --> 01:41:08,599
Speaker 1: sort of you know, so to me, the order kind

1791
01:41:08,600 --> 01:41:12,599
Speaker 1: of meaningless. But I always believe that the first four

1792
01:41:12,640 --> 01:41:16,400
Speaker 1: states that it. And so if you wanted to replace

1793
01:41:16,439 --> 01:41:19,400
Speaker 1: one of those four states, you still needed to Okay,

1794
01:41:19,400 --> 01:41:21,960
Speaker 1: where are you going to test the organizing skills? Right?

1795
01:41:22,000 --> 01:41:24,200
Speaker 1: Where are you going to test? You know, talking to

1796
01:41:24,280 --> 01:41:27,720
Speaker 1: rural America? Right? And there's this nice mix right once

1797
01:41:27,760 --> 01:41:32,120
Speaker 1: you get to it's very suburban in New Hampshire. There's

1798
01:41:32,120 --> 01:41:34,640
Speaker 1: a lot of military veterans in South Carolina. Once you

1799
01:41:34,640 --> 01:41:36,759
Speaker 1: get to Nevada, you get to a big, major urban

1800
01:41:36,840 --> 01:41:39,639
Speaker 1: center in Las Vegas. So I view it as they're

1801
01:41:39,640 --> 01:41:42,240
Speaker 1: small states or the burieder entry. For candidates to run.

1802
01:41:42,280 --> 01:41:44,519
Speaker 1: You don't have to you know, in theory, you don't

1803
01:41:44,520 --> 01:41:48,360
Speaker 1: have to raise fifty million dollars to survive in one

1804
01:41:48,360 --> 01:41:50,760
Speaker 1: of those states, although these days that does feel like

1805
01:41:50,800 --> 01:41:53,840
Speaker 1: the price is going up and up. So I'm not

1806
01:41:54,360 --> 01:41:57,559
Speaker 1: married to the order I think you can make. I

1807
01:41:57,600 --> 01:42:00,000
Speaker 1: can make a case of which one. Maybe New Hamphire

1808
01:42:00,000 --> 01:42:02,200
Speaker 1: sure should go last of those four, right, if you

1809
01:42:02,240 --> 01:42:05,200
Speaker 1: were thinking about you know, test one is organizing, Test

1810
01:42:05,280 --> 01:42:08,800
Speaker 1: two is your base, conservative, your one of your key

1811
01:42:08,840 --> 01:42:13,679
Speaker 1: constituencies in your base. Test three is sort of an

1812
01:42:13,800 --> 01:42:17,040
Speaker 1: urban center and Hispanic voters. And Test four is independence. Right,

1813
01:42:17,280 --> 01:42:18,960
Speaker 1: So I guess if you had asked me what the

1814
01:42:19,040 --> 01:42:20,720
Speaker 1: order to be, I might go Iowa, South Carolina, and

1815
01:42:20,720 --> 01:42:23,599
Speaker 1: Nevada New Hampshire. But I'm also living the real world

1816
01:42:23,600 --> 01:42:27,240
Speaker 1: and know that New Hampshire New Hampshire government officials will

1817
01:42:27,240 --> 01:42:31,280
Speaker 1: lose their you know what, if they're not considered first

1818
01:42:31,280 --> 01:42:35,560
Speaker 1: in the nation. So I'm just a big believer. I

1819
01:42:35,640 --> 01:42:37,200
Speaker 1: think those four. Now, if you're going to get rid

1820
01:42:37,200 --> 01:42:40,400
Speaker 1: of Iowa. I'd replace it with Nebraska or Kansas, like

1821
01:42:40,439 --> 01:42:42,559
Speaker 1: you you know, I would replace it with Minnesota as

1822
01:42:42,560 --> 01:42:44,360
Speaker 1: some people have called her Michigan. I think that that

1823
01:42:44,479 --> 01:42:47,519
Speaker 1: does that in some ways they're too big of those

1824
01:42:47,560 --> 01:42:51,800
Speaker 1: population centers, I think Kansas or Nebraska. But I think

1825
01:42:51,840 --> 01:42:56,560
Speaker 1: there's nothing wrong with Iowa, because again it is I

1826
01:42:57,160 --> 01:43:00,320
Speaker 1: think Iowan's got it. And by the way, the more

1827
01:43:00,360 --> 01:43:03,080
Speaker 1: seriously both parties take all of those states, the more

1828
01:43:03,120 --> 01:43:06,599
Speaker 1: they've all sort of drifted towards competitive status, with really

1829
01:43:06,600 --> 01:43:13,280
Speaker 1: only so South Carolina not being one of those. So anyway,

1830
01:43:13,320 --> 01:43:15,000
Speaker 1: I love the question, and as you know, I'm a

1831
01:43:15,040 --> 01:43:17,479
Speaker 1: huge advocate of Iowa, and yes, you want to know

1832
01:43:17,520 --> 01:43:19,400
Speaker 1: my bias in Iowa. There are more Todds buried in

1833
01:43:19,439 --> 01:43:22,479
Speaker 1: eastern Iowa than in any state in the Union. It's

1834
01:43:22,560 --> 01:43:25,360
Speaker 1: a very town, small town Edgewood, Iowa. In case you're wondering,

1835
01:43:25,400 --> 01:43:30,280
Speaker 1: there's a whole Todd section in Edgewood, Iowa. Or my

1836
01:43:30,320 --> 01:43:34,800
Speaker 1: great grandmother in particular is sort of the matriarch that

1837
01:43:35,280 --> 01:43:38,200
Speaker 1: I remember who is buried there. All right, let me

1838
01:43:38,240 --> 01:43:44,040
Speaker 1: move on commenting question. This comes from Bill r. He

1839
01:43:44,200 --> 01:43:46,479
Speaker 1: takes a little bit of a shot at my devoted

1840
01:43:46,560 --> 01:43:49,599
Speaker 1: canes here. But I think it's in jest comment, not question, Chuck.

1841
01:43:49,720 --> 01:43:52,040
Speaker 1: It wasn't Saturday afternoon in the late seventies without watching

1842
01:43:52,080 --> 01:43:54,960
Speaker 1: Gordon Solely Live from Tampa. Thank you for the Gordon

1843
01:43:55,000 --> 01:43:57,760
Speaker 1: Solely reference. I wasn't alone. Sometimes they would wrestle at

1844
01:43:57,760 --> 01:44:00,840
Speaker 1: the Eddie Graham Stadium in East Orlando, The American Dream,

1845
01:44:00,920 --> 01:44:03,840
Speaker 1: Dusty Rhodes, Russell, Pretty Boy, Rick Flair at ringside at

1846
01:44:03,920 --> 01:44:06,280
Speaker 1: u F in nineteen eighty two at the Okadahol Good times,

1847
01:44:06,800 --> 01:44:08,519
Speaker 1: Bill r Thank you by the way, he said, you

1848
01:44:08,520 --> 01:44:11,600
Speaker 1: cannot spell scum without un all right, I've seen that

1849
01:44:11,960 --> 01:44:15,799
Speaker 1: UF that is you know again if you need help,

1850
01:44:16,479 --> 01:44:18,600
Speaker 1: if you need help, I know you guys have a

1851
01:44:18,640 --> 01:44:22,639
Speaker 1: lot of extra fingers without rings on them, obviously Miami,

1852
01:44:22,680 --> 01:44:24,519
Speaker 1: with all these rings on this, on that on their

1853
01:44:24,560 --> 01:44:26,600
Speaker 1: on their hand. It's it's a little more difficult. But

1854
01:44:27,280 --> 01:44:30,479
Speaker 1: you know, I appre you know, it's it's funny. I've

1855
01:44:30,520 --> 01:44:32,439
Speaker 1: heard a few Bill Simmons had a bit of a

1856
01:44:32,560 --> 01:44:35,800
Speaker 1: historical thing on on Hulk Hogan and I guess how

1857
01:44:35,920 --> 01:44:39,599
Speaker 1: close you know it was where Dusty Rhodes almost was

1858
01:44:39,920 --> 01:44:41,920
Speaker 1: almost got that. It was sort of almost like a

1859
01:44:42,000 --> 01:44:44,599
Speaker 1: who who was going to get the hulk Hogan slot right,

1860
01:44:44,640 --> 01:44:47,479
Speaker 1: and Dusty Rhodes was this close, you know, Like I said,

1861
01:44:47,479 --> 01:44:51,280
Speaker 1: I think and it may be probably why I lost interest, Right,

1862
01:44:51,600 --> 01:44:54,840
Speaker 1: I might have stuck with the WWF slash w W

1863
01:44:55,040 --> 01:45:00,559
Speaker 1: if Dusty Rhodes had been their centered guy there. But anyway,

1864
01:45:00,720 --> 01:45:06,360
Speaker 1: good times, good memories. Gordon solely Ugh he was something else.

1865
01:45:07,439 --> 01:45:10,599
Speaker 1: That's one of those that if I I'm afraid, if

1866
01:45:10,600 --> 01:45:14,000
Speaker 1: I go down the YouTube rabbit hole, I'll be you know,

1867
01:45:14,280 --> 01:45:17,040
Speaker 1: it'll be four hours later and my family will wonder

1868
01:45:17,040 --> 01:45:19,479
Speaker 1: what happened to me. This comes from Josh B. Do

1869
01:45:19,520 --> 01:45:21,760
Speaker 1: you think with a depressed MAGA base, Ohio will be

1870
01:45:21,760 --> 01:45:23,960
Speaker 1: competitive for ds in the govern the center racist things.

1871
01:45:24,439 --> 01:45:27,360
Speaker 1: So look, I view Ohio as light red, not dark red.

1872
01:45:27,479 --> 01:45:29,240
Speaker 1: You talk to my friend John Kasik, he will tell

1873
01:45:29,240 --> 01:45:32,120
Speaker 1: you the same thing. I do think that the Democratic

1874
01:45:32,120 --> 01:45:35,160
Speaker 1: Party organization in Ohio. Right, there's there's sort of three

1875
01:45:35,200 --> 01:45:41,240
Speaker 1: states where the states are treated by the National Party

1876
01:45:41,280 --> 01:45:45,960
Speaker 1: as if they're Idaho, when in reality they're very light red.

1877
01:45:46,240 --> 01:45:49,120
Speaker 1: And those three states are Florida, Ohio, and Iowa. By

1878
01:45:49,120 --> 01:45:53,960
Speaker 1: the way, three states that Barack Obama carried twice. Okay,

1879
01:45:54,880 --> 01:45:57,439
Speaker 1: you know what, he never carried Idaho. Okay, Idaho is

1880
01:45:57,439 --> 01:45:59,720
Speaker 1: Idaho Idaho. Nobody's advocating me to go try to be

1881
01:45:59,720 --> 01:46:03,599
Speaker 1: comp have been eyed out. But you know this wasn't

1882
01:46:03,760 --> 01:46:08,040
Speaker 1: in the twentieth century. Okay, this is a decade ago,

1883
01:46:08,800 --> 01:46:14,280
Speaker 1: all right, thirteen years ago to be specific, when Barack

1884
01:46:14,280 --> 01:46:18,320
Speaker 1: Obama carried all all of those states for a second time.

1885
01:46:19,320 --> 01:46:23,920
Speaker 1: And what you've really had is atrophy within the state party.

1886
01:46:24,040 --> 01:46:27,080
Speaker 1: You know, in the on the Iowa Democrats, it just

1887
01:46:27,120 --> 01:46:30,759
Speaker 1: became this weird proxy fight over how do you conduct

1888
01:46:30,760 --> 01:46:33,280
Speaker 1: the caucuses? And then the national party thought the state

1889
01:46:33,360 --> 01:46:36,559
Speaker 1: was too white. Frankly, I think Iowa got punished for

1890
01:46:36,640 --> 01:46:40,519
Speaker 1: over identity politics inside the Democratic Party, which I do

1891
01:46:40,680 --> 01:46:43,960
Speaker 1: think kind of fed Iowan's pay attention to this. And

1892
01:46:44,000 --> 01:46:47,280
Speaker 1: I think it was a I think the Democrats decision

1893
01:46:47,320 --> 01:46:49,240
Speaker 1: to bail out of Iowa and the caucuses or sort

1894
01:46:49,240 --> 01:46:51,280
Speaker 1: of to criticize them and to do it via the

1895
01:46:51,280 --> 01:46:54,679
Speaker 1: prism of identity politics was insulting to a bunch of voters,

1896
01:46:54,720 --> 01:46:57,599
Speaker 1: and I think it set them back. And like I said,

1897
01:46:57,600 --> 01:46:59,880
Speaker 1: you had a state party that was just constantly at

1898
01:47:00,000 --> 01:47:02,720
Speaker 1: odds with each other. The national Party almost wanted to

1899
01:47:02,760 --> 01:47:06,240
Speaker 1: see it fail because there was all this tension. Progressive

1900
01:47:06,280 --> 01:47:09,639
Speaker 1: donors in California hated that things started in rural America, right,

1901
01:47:09,720 --> 01:47:12,800
Speaker 1: So there was almost like a there was a wilfulness

1902
01:47:12,840 --> 01:47:17,320
Speaker 1: to let it happen on that front. But again, it

1903
01:47:17,360 --> 01:47:19,600
Speaker 1: was sort of a lack of state party leadership. I

1904
01:47:19,640 --> 01:47:21,960
Speaker 1: think Ohio said the same thing, a lack of state

1905
01:47:22,080 --> 01:47:25,160
Speaker 1: democratic leadership. Certainly Florida's had the same thing. Where there

1906
01:47:25,200 --> 01:47:27,880
Speaker 1: are where when you look at be a party registration

1907
01:47:28,040 --> 01:47:29,840
Speaker 1: or you look at sort of you know, rank and

1908
01:47:29,880 --> 01:47:35,240
Speaker 1: file voters. These are competitive states if you know how

1909
01:47:35,280 --> 01:47:38,040
Speaker 1: to organize them. These are competitive states if you know

1910
01:47:38,040 --> 01:47:40,160
Speaker 1: how to be a leader. These are competitive states if

1911
01:47:40,200 --> 01:47:43,360
Speaker 1: you do things like, oh, I don't know, voter registration campaigns.

1912
01:47:44,680 --> 01:47:49,160
Speaker 1: The Republican Party was tired of losing in states that

1913
01:47:49,200 --> 01:47:50,960
Speaker 1: they thought they should have an advantage in, and so

1914
01:47:51,040 --> 01:47:53,599
Speaker 1: they redoubled their effort in all three of their states,

1915
01:47:53,600 --> 01:47:57,920
Speaker 1: and they went and maximized voter registrations or they could

1916
01:47:58,479 --> 01:48:02,160
Speaker 1: in these states. The point is is that I I

1917
01:48:02,200 --> 01:48:05,200
Speaker 1: don't think the states have changed all that much. I

1918
01:48:05,200 --> 01:48:07,559
Speaker 1: think it's the leadership of the two parties that is

1919
01:48:08,080 --> 01:48:12,240
Speaker 1: that is changed, and I think that the for so

1920
01:48:12,400 --> 01:48:14,320
Speaker 1: my point is that I think with with a little

1921
01:48:14,320 --> 01:48:19,040
Speaker 1: bit of of I mean, we've seen Ohio is a

1922
01:48:19,160 --> 01:48:24,640
Speaker 1: light red state that with that with a good campaign

1923
01:48:25,479 --> 01:48:29,160
Speaker 1: and probably a nominee that is seen as further out

1924
01:48:29,160 --> 01:48:32,800
Speaker 1: of the center, you know, to me, John Kasik is

1925
01:48:32,840 --> 01:48:38,200
Speaker 1: the is almost the perfect ideological microcosm of of Ohio.

1926
01:48:38,280 --> 01:48:38,400
Speaker 3: Right.

1927
01:48:38,439 --> 01:48:41,160
Speaker 1: It's a center right state. Rob Portman and John Kasick

1928
01:48:41,200 --> 01:48:44,560
Speaker 1: probably would have the lowest unfavorables, you know, sort of

1929
01:48:44,560 --> 01:48:47,120
Speaker 1: they're the they're the least They're not anybody's favorite, but

1930
01:48:47,160 --> 01:48:49,840
Speaker 1: there sort of would never be the least favorite type

1931
01:48:49,880 --> 01:48:52,720
Speaker 1: of type of person, right. So I do think a

1932
01:48:52,760 --> 01:48:56,679
Speaker 1: guy like Ramaswami is a bit polarizing, and I think

1933
01:48:56,720 --> 01:49:00,839
Speaker 1: he's he certainly loves a microphone, which means me he's

1934
01:49:00,960 --> 01:49:03,800
Speaker 1: I think, potentially going to talk too much and could

1935
01:49:04,120 --> 01:49:06,960
Speaker 1: talk himself into trouble the way jd Vance, you know,

1936
01:49:07,520 --> 01:49:11,000
Speaker 1: the being open to talking for an hour on a

1937
01:49:11,040 --> 01:49:15,280
Speaker 1: podcast is I love it, but it also you know,

1938
01:49:15,400 --> 01:49:17,559
Speaker 1: every once in a while you can talk yourself into trouble.

1939
01:49:17,640 --> 01:49:19,400
Speaker 1: Jd Vance has done that a number of times on

1940
01:49:19,439 --> 01:49:22,639
Speaker 1: some of these podcasts, and I think Ramaswami has has

1941
01:49:22,640 --> 01:49:26,280
Speaker 1: that opportunity as well. And then you have a governor

1942
01:49:26,280 --> 01:49:28,040
Speaker 1: like Mike DeWine who also fits I think more in

1943
01:49:28,080 --> 01:49:31,760
Speaker 1: the caseic Rob Portman model, where where they broadly see

1944
01:49:31,800 --> 01:49:34,880
Speaker 1: themselves as more representative of the state as a whole. Right,

1945
01:49:34,920 --> 01:49:37,559
Speaker 1: They're not the favorite of the bases, but in many

1946
01:49:37,560 --> 01:49:42,560
Speaker 1: ways swing voters are most comfortable with that type of leadership,

1947
01:49:43,680 --> 01:49:48,320
Speaker 1: so I think they can be competitive. I noticed that

1948
01:49:48,360 --> 01:49:53,520
Speaker 1: Amy Acton, who was Governor Mike DeWine's COVID health advisor,

1949
01:49:53,840 --> 01:49:56,080
Speaker 1: is running as a Democrat for governor, and she raised

1950
01:49:56,600 --> 01:50:00,600
Speaker 1: a significant chunk of money for Democrats of Canada for

1951
01:50:00,640 --> 01:50:05,920
Speaker 1: governor this early. But I just don't know. I wonder

1952
01:50:06,000 --> 01:50:09,320
Speaker 1: if the COVID, if being associated with COVID in a

1953
01:50:09,439 --> 01:50:14,000
Speaker 1: light red state is actually the isn't going to work right,

1954
01:50:14,040 --> 01:50:15,880
Speaker 1: that that fires up the wrong base, that that might

1955
01:50:16,720 --> 01:50:19,519
Speaker 1: I am, I am I fire. Look, I think she

1956
01:50:19,680 --> 01:50:22,479
Speaker 1: was one of the best public health officials there were.

1957
01:50:22,600 --> 01:50:26,280
Speaker 1: I thought she was, you know, well over and above

1958
01:50:26,400 --> 01:50:28,559
Speaker 1: Fauci at times. I mean, I think that she was

1959
01:50:28,600 --> 01:50:32,640
Speaker 1: the clearest and sort of and d wines management of it.

1960
01:50:32,680 --> 01:50:35,479
Speaker 1: I just think that these were true to you know

1961
01:50:35,520 --> 01:50:39,200
Speaker 1: these they were public servants first, and I think she's

1962
01:50:39,520 --> 01:50:41,920
Speaker 1: she was terrific at it. If you're going to ask

1963
01:50:41,960 --> 01:50:46,439
Speaker 1: me her political viability, I just don't know if if

1964
01:50:46,720 --> 01:50:49,360
Speaker 1: you know, we're so you know, when it comes to COVID, right,

1965
01:50:49,439 --> 01:50:52,000
Speaker 1: we just sort of want to sweep that whole period

1966
01:50:52,080 --> 01:50:54,120
Speaker 1: under the rug. We don't want to talk about. We

1967
01:50:54,200 --> 01:50:58,320
Speaker 1: just want to move on. And for what it's worth,

1968
01:50:58,320 --> 01:51:01,799
Speaker 1: it's what happened after the pandemic in nineteen seventeen and eighteen,

1969
01:51:01,800 --> 01:51:04,559
Speaker 1: there was this you know, there's no retrospective, there's no

1970
01:51:04,640 --> 01:51:06,320
Speaker 1: let's look back and figure out what we could have

1971
01:51:06,320 --> 01:51:09,439
Speaker 1: done better. Everybody just wants to move on, and so

1972
01:51:09,520 --> 01:51:12,960
Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't know if she's the best.

1973
01:51:13,880 --> 01:51:18,479
Speaker 1: I question whether the COVID stuff is a is a

1974
01:51:18,479 --> 01:51:22,479
Speaker 1: baggage that's just too heavy to carry in a light

1975
01:51:22,520 --> 01:51:25,200
Speaker 1: red state like Ohio. Now, if you told me, that's

1976
01:51:25,200 --> 01:51:27,720
Speaker 1: why I'm intrigued if Shared Brown jumps in this governor's race,

1977
01:51:28,400 --> 01:51:31,759
Speaker 1: I'm more inclined to believe it's easier for Shared Brown

1978
01:51:32,560 --> 01:51:34,840
Speaker 1: to win a one more time as governor in a

1979
01:51:34,880 --> 01:51:39,000
Speaker 1: position he's never he's never had before, versus trying to

1980
01:51:39,040 --> 01:51:41,599
Speaker 1: go back to the Senate. I think you go back

1981
01:51:41,640 --> 01:51:43,919
Speaker 1: to the Senate and it becomes two fights between incumbents,

1982
01:51:43,920 --> 01:51:45,880
Speaker 1: and I think we don't like any incumbents this cycle.

1983
01:51:47,680 --> 01:51:51,760
Speaker 1: So but no, I met. I am a believer that

1984
01:51:51,960 --> 01:51:55,959
Speaker 1: these states can be competitive, but it needs some leadership,

1985
01:51:56,040 --> 01:51:58,519
Speaker 1: and there's some there's some state parties that could use

1986
01:51:58,520 --> 01:52:00,720
Speaker 1: a lot of help from the now Party, but the

1987
01:52:00,800 --> 01:52:03,800
Speaker 1: national Party is having its own problems right now. But

1988
01:52:04,040 --> 01:52:08,439
Speaker 1: these are I think the electorates are more swingy than

1989
01:52:08,479 --> 01:52:12,960
Speaker 1: the way that two organizations behave, whether it's in Ohio, Iowa,

1990
01:52:13,439 --> 01:52:17,800
Speaker 1: or Florida. All Right, I think I'm gonna take a

1991
01:52:17,840 --> 01:52:24,080
Speaker 1: pause there with that. If I'm not around on Monday,

1992
01:52:24,120 --> 01:52:27,160
Speaker 1: it may be because Mackenzie Gore was trade. That would

1993
01:52:27,200 --> 01:52:29,000
Speaker 1: be you know, if you're wondering what happened to me,

1994
01:52:30,240 --> 01:52:32,880
Speaker 1: I may have totally lost it, right and I may,

1995
01:52:32,920 --> 01:52:35,800
Speaker 1: you know, have to go hibernate and all of that.

1996
01:52:35,960 --> 01:52:40,800
Speaker 1: But barring that, I look forward to dropping a great

1997
01:52:40,840 --> 01:52:44,760
Speaker 1: pod on Monday morning, and until then, I will see

1998
01:52:44,760 --> 01:52:45,880
Speaker 1: you when we upload again.