WEBVTT - JJCI, Bayer, GSK, Mass Tort Litigation Risks 0:00:10.840 --> 0:00:15.040 Welcome to the Votes in Verdicts podcast hosted by Bloomberg Intelligence, 0:00:15.360 --> 0:00:19.480 the investment research arm of Bloomberg LP. In this podcast series, 0:00:19.520 --> 0:00:22.279 we talk about the intersection of business policy and law. 0:00:22.760 --> 0:00:25.240 My name is Holly from I'm an analyst with Bloomberg 0:00:25.280 --> 0:00:30.640 Intelligence covering consumer industrials and healthcare litigation. Today's podcast will 0:00:30.640 --> 0:00:33.560 focus on mass towort litigation presently winding its way through 0:00:33.560 --> 0:00:37.200 the courts. I'm delighted to be joined today by Joseph Fantini, 0:00:37.280 --> 0:00:40.519 a Rozen injury lawyers. He has been managing attorney for 0:00:40.640 --> 0:00:44.120 Rosen's mass tourt department, and just as a disclaimer, mister 0:00:44.200 --> 0:00:46.839 Fantini is an attorney representing plaintiffs in some of the 0:00:46.960 --> 0:00:50.200 cases we will be discussing today. Joe, would you please 0:00:50.360 --> 0:00:52.239 thank you for being here. Would you please tell us 0:00:52.320 --> 0:00:54.560 a little bit about your background and what you do 0:00:54.600 --> 0:00:55.080 at Rosen. 0:00:56.240 --> 0:00:58.640 Good morning, Thanks very much for having me on here. 0:00:58.880 --> 0:01:03.120 I'm excited to discuss all of the things here mass tort. So, 0:01:03.240 --> 0:01:07.000 as you mentioned, I'm the managing partner at Rosen Injury Lawyers. 0:01:07.520 --> 0:01:11.360 We're a firm that specializes in mass torts, so our 0:01:11.400 --> 0:01:15.959 office here only handles mass torts and we're currently involved 0:01:15.959 --> 0:01:19.840 in a number of different ones, including somewhere discussing today. 0:01:20.440 --> 0:01:25.480 But by the way background, I attended law school at 0:01:26.120 --> 0:01:29.520 Wider University in Delaware, and during that time I had 0:01:29.520 --> 0:01:33.160 the chance to clerk for the Honorable Judge knew in 0:01:33.240 --> 0:01:37.839 Philadelphia Court of Common Please. So Philadelphia Court of Common 0:01:37.920 --> 0:01:40.520 Please is one of the few state courts in the 0:01:40.560 --> 0:01:44.839 country that handles mass torts. So during that time, when 0:01:44.959 --> 0:01:49.320 Judge Knuw was overseeing the complex Litigation section, I had 0:01:49.360 --> 0:01:52.120 my first exposure to mass twarts. So I got the 0:01:52.160 --> 0:01:55.720 opportunity to interact with plain if and defense counsel and 0:01:55.800 --> 0:01:59.320 see how mass tourt really worked. After I graduated from 0:01:59.360 --> 0:02:02.920 law school, I work for an international insurance defense firm, 0:02:02.920 --> 0:02:07.880 Wilson Elser, where I focused my practice on product liability cases, 0:02:08.240 --> 0:02:10.880 but I had the opportunity to defend some companies in 0:02:10.960 --> 0:02:15.360 mass court cases pending in Philadelphia and also in federal court. 0:02:16.280 --> 0:02:19.640 After about three years defending companies, I switched sides and 0:02:19.720 --> 0:02:22.320 went over to the plane f side and joined a 0:02:23.000 --> 0:02:28.360 large predominant Philadelphia based firm called Antipol Voice over at Anapol. 0:02:28.760 --> 0:02:31.560 I worked there for approximately six years and really learned 0:02:31.720 --> 0:02:34.520 ins and outs of mass torts and worked on a 0:02:34.600 --> 0:02:38.520 number of docket from exception to settlement. I had a 0:02:38.880 --> 0:02:42.280 great opportunity there to work hand in hand with leadership 0:02:44.080 --> 0:02:49.120 and learned really how mass tourt worked. In twenty eighteen, 0:02:49.320 --> 0:02:53.000 I joined the Rose and Law Firm and launched the 0:02:53.080 --> 0:02:55.840 mass tourt practice Rose and Law Firm as a large 0:02:56.240 --> 0:02:59.760 securities class action, but we decided to open a second 0:03:00.040 --> 0:03:03.560 actice that bothn solely on mass towards. So over the 0:03:03.639 --> 0:03:05.840 last six years or so, I've been able to grow 0:03:05.880 --> 0:03:09.040 the practice and the firm to what it is here today. 0:03:09.840 --> 0:03:12.040 Great, thank you, as we're really lucky to have you today, 0:03:12.040 --> 0:03:14.359 because you don't always you don't always get attorney whose 0:03:14.400 --> 0:03:16.640 practiced on both sides of the aisle that it sounds 0:03:16.639 --> 0:03:21.840 like you have. So you know, we know that mass 0:03:21.880 --> 0:03:25.480 towards can pose series risks of companies in general. When 0:03:25.480 --> 0:03:30.600 you're analyzing whether to take a case as a as 0:03:30.639 --> 0:03:33.120 a plane's attorney, what would you make you decide to 0:03:33.160 --> 0:03:35.640 take on certain cases and what would persuade you to 0:03:35.680 --> 0:03:36.880 avoid certain cases. 0:03:37.840 --> 0:03:40.760 Yeah, that's a really good question, and there's maybe ten 0:03:40.800 --> 0:03:43.800 to twelve factors we look at in each different mask toward. 0:03:43.880 --> 0:03:47.360 Before we get involved, we want to make sure that 0:03:47.480 --> 0:03:50.520 it's a litigation that we're passionate about because we're going 0:03:50.600 --> 0:03:53.120 to be in there for a long fight and we're 0:03:53.160 --> 0:03:56.839 going to invest a significant amount of our resources. We 0:03:56.920 --> 0:03:59.360 also want to make sure it's a case that's going 0:03:59.440 --> 0:04:02.160 to have a big impact and that we're going to 0:04:02.160 --> 0:04:02.760 be able. 0:04:02.520 --> 0:04:04.320 To help as many people as possible. 0:04:04.920 --> 0:04:07.280 And we want to be able to bring about change, 0:04:07.320 --> 0:04:09.640 and the way you do that is to get involved 0:04:09.640 --> 0:04:14.040 in some of these mass towards. So when we start 0:04:14.080 --> 0:04:17.200 investigating and looking into the mass toward, the most important 0:04:17.240 --> 0:04:20.120 factor for us is science. We want to know what 0:04:20.279 --> 0:04:23.200 studies are out there, what studies are out there that 0:04:23.240 --> 0:04:27.160 support our position, and then also ones that go against 0:04:27.240 --> 0:04:29.800 our position. We really want to look at how many 0:04:29.839 --> 0:04:33.560 studies there are. And then once we get a handle 0:04:33.600 --> 0:04:36.960 on that, what our firm typically does is will retain 0:04:37.080 --> 0:04:41.440 our own expert that specializes in that area. So it 0:04:41.480 --> 0:04:45.440 could be an on ecologist, it could be an epidemiologist, 0:04:45.880 --> 0:04:49.120 whatever type of experts needed for us to really get 0:04:49.160 --> 0:04:52.159 a good feel about the strengths and weaknesses of the 0:04:52.200 --> 0:04:56.000 case up front before we start acquiring things. That's what 0:04:56.040 --> 0:04:58.960 we do next. After we get the good understanding of 0:04:59.040 --> 0:05:02.960 the science, we look at the total potential number of 0:05:03.000 --> 0:05:07.200 individuals impacted. So we're looking at here at the numerosity 0:05:07.800 --> 0:05:11.279 of the potential number of plans that come forward. My 0:05:11.440 --> 0:05:15.200 experience that showed me somewhere between eight to ten percent 0:05:15.320 --> 0:05:18.920 of injured claimants come forward, So we want to make 0:05:18.920 --> 0:05:21.359 sure that there's enough planeus out there for us to 0:05:21.400 --> 0:05:25.200 really make an impact. Another factor that we look at 0:05:25.480 --> 0:05:28.320 and is really important is the viability of the defendant. 0:05:28.960 --> 0:05:31.640 We want to know whether or not this defendant has 0:05:31.680 --> 0:05:35.960 the ability to satisfy a large judgment or engage in 0:05:36.000 --> 0:05:41.279 a settlement because miss toads typically resolve for hundreds of 0:05:41.279 --> 0:05:44.440 millions of dollars or even billions of dollars. So those 0:05:44.480 --> 0:05:47.279 three factors are usually the most important ones that we're 0:05:47.320 --> 0:05:50.240 looking at when we make a decision whether or not 0:05:50.279 --> 0:05:51.640 to get involved in a mass or it. 0:05:52.520 --> 0:05:52.719 Ok. 0:05:52.800 --> 0:05:59.440 Hey, thanks, So when you're looking at numerosity, I understand 0:05:59.440 --> 0:06:02.800 that there's like an eight or ten percent response rate. 0:06:03.160 --> 0:06:06.120 Is the eight to ten percent percent response rate is 0:06:06.160 --> 0:06:10.800 that people who will you know, call you after they 0:06:10.800 --> 0:06:13.880 find out about this issue, or are those people who 0:06:13.920 --> 0:06:16.440 are actually will actually decide to sue. 0:06:17.760 --> 0:06:21.920 Yeah, so eight to ten percent would be the percentage 0:06:21.960 --> 0:06:26.760 of the injured individuals that come forward. So I've seen 0:06:26.800 --> 0:06:29.520 some other studies that go up to twenty percent, But 0:06:29.640 --> 0:06:33.279 say there were one hundred people injured by this product. 0:06:34.080 --> 0:06:38.080 Typically they may not be aware of the association between 0:06:38.120 --> 0:06:41.560 this medication or this medical device or this consumer product. 0:06:41.880 --> 0:06:45.520 So it's that advertisement that makes them aware. Because it's 0:06:45.560 --> 0:06:49.280 different from a situation and a traditional personal injury case 0:06:49.320 --> 0:06:51.720 where you get in a car accident and you break 0:06:51.720 --> 0:06:54.359 your back. You know that's from the car accident. So 0:06:54.480 --> 0:06:56.919 here we have to do a lot of education and 0:06:57.040 --> 0:06:59.159 let the plaintiffs know, you know, you aren't the only 0:06:59.160 --> 0:07:02.120 person that is until there are other people. So we 0:07:02.240 --> 0:07:05.600 usually find that for every hundred people that were injured 0:07:05.600 --> 0:07:08.679 by this product, about ten percent of them come forward 0:07:09.040 --> 0:07:10.239 and want to assert a claim. 0:07:11.200 --> 0:07:15.840 Interesting. Interesting, are there cases that are riskier than others? 0:07:16.280 --> 0:07:18.440 And what would you describe as a risky case to 0:07:18.520 --> 0:07:18.920 take on? 0:07:20.280 --> 0:07:24.120 Yeah, some of something that would make a case riskier 0:07:24.160 --> 0:07:27.800 would be, you know, if the science is unsettled. So 0:07:28.040 --> 0:07:32.560 when we have maybe an even number of articles on 0:07:32.640 --> 0:07:37.040 each side saying something in favor of the player's position 0:07:37.200 --> 0:07:40.560 and something in favor of the defendant's position that can 0:07:40.600 --> 0:07:45.400 make it riskier. Also, if it's kind of a new problem, 0:07:45.440 --> 0:07:48.040 a new issue that's coming to the forefront, and there 0:07:48.120 --> 0:07:50.960 isn't a lot of science out there, if there haven't 0:07:51.000 --> 0:07:55.320 been a lot of studies, that makes it risky and 0:07:55.400 --> 0:07:56.239 that can. 0:07:56.080 --> 0:07:58.080 Give us pause before we get involved. 0:07:59.200 --> 0:08:01.760 You know, another thing that we look at a lot 0:08:02.360 --> 0:08:05.280 and really factors inter our decision is the ability of 0:08:05.320 --> 0:08:09.600 the defendants to pay, because a lot of these cases 0:08:09.600 --> 0:08:13.560 could potentially go into the bankruptcy, which could add years 0:08:13.560 --> 0:08:16.760 on to the length of the litigation, but then it 0:08:16.760 --> 0:08:19.120 could also result in the plane of getting a reduced 0:08:19.160 --> 0:08:23.920 mount So before we get involved, we really spend a 0:08:23.920 --> 0:08:26.920 lot of time focusing on those because without the science, 0:08:26.960 --> 0:08:31.080 we can't get over and past Daubert and everything. 0:08:30.760 --> 0:08:31.720 Would be for a loss. 0:08:31.760 --> 0:08:35.280 So those are the two most important factors i'd say 0:08:35.320 --> 0:08:37.320 that we look at before we get involved. 0:08:38.440 --> 0:08:38.839 Got it. 0:08:39.760 --> 0:08:43.319 So I understand you're involved in a number of mass works. 0:08:43.480 --> 0:08:45.960 I'd love to ask you some questions about specific case 0:08:46.000 --> 0:08:48.920 that's starting with Van Tak If any of the listeners 0:08:48.960 --> 0:08:52.720 don't know lawsuits were filed after a lab reported results 0:08:52.720 --> 0:08:56.120 finding that in an ingredient in xantach called niche din 0:08:56.480 --> 0:09:00.800 degrades into a non percentagen under certain storage point conditions 0:09:00.960 --> 0:09:04.880 or an alliged carcinogen under certain storage conditions. Cases were 0:09:04.920 --> 0:09:07.840 filed in federal and state court. There were at one point, 0:09:07.880 --> 0:09:09.840 I think about one hundred and fifty thousand queens on 0:09:09.920 --> 0:09:13.679 the Federal Registry. The Federal Court dismissed the cases in 0:09:13.760 --> 0:09:17.679 pour Q after the judge found experts couldn't pass the 0:09:17.720 --> 0:09:22.360 downward standard, which assesses the reliability of experts. I wanted 0:09:22.400 --> 0:09:24.880 to know, Joe, if you could explain the judge's ruling 0:09:25.120 --> 0:09:28.559 and her stated reasoning as to why she barred the experts. 0:09:30.000 --> 0:09:30.200 Yeah. 0:09:30.240 --> 0:09:32.760 So, as you mentioned, this was a very large mass 0:09:32.840 --> 0:09:36.560 towart and there were one hundred and fifty thousand cases 0:09:36.600 --> 0:09:40.440 on the registry. And basically what the registry was was 0:09:40.480 --> 0:09:44.240 a mechanism for us to put cases, to toll them 0:09:44.320 --> 0:09:48.080 and exchange information with the defendants before officially filing them. 0:09:48.559 --> 0:09:51.360 So what happened was in the spring of twenty twenty, 0:09:51.440 --> 0:09:57.480 the FDA requested that all manufacturers voluntarily recalled their products 0:09:57.520 --> 0:10:00.600 and sees further sales. All of them can applied with 0:10:00.640 --> 0:10:06.520 that and then almost instantaneously lawsuits started getting filed and 0:10:06.559 --> 0:10:10.560 then an MDL got formed before Judge Robinson Rosenberg of 0:10:10.600 --> 0:10:15.400 the Southern District of Florida, and basically, the plaintiffs we 0:10:15.840 --> 0:10:21.200 had relied heavily upon information from a private company was 0:10:21.240 --> 0:10:25.839 called Balashoor, and basically Balashor had theorized. 0:10:25.240 --> 0:10:27.400 That the Danda dean. 0:10:29.000 --> 0:10:34.000 Had the potential to degrade into carcagen known as NDMA, 0:10:34.520 --> 0:10:40.320 and through her analysis, Judge Rosenberg found that the testing 0:10:40.400 --> 0:10:46.840 that Balashor did to reach its conclusion wasn't proper. She 0:10:47.040 --> 0:10:50.240 found that the temperature that it was raised to that 0:10:50.320 --> 0:10:54.600 Balachra raised to was way above the temperature and the 0:10:54.679 --> 0:11:00.880 human and then also questioned Balashor's testing the reneedda den 0:11:01.000 --> 0:11:04.640 reaction to salt, which again she found was the salt 0:11:04.920 --> 0:11:08.040 content was way higher than what was found in the human. 0:11:10.040 --> 0:11:15.280 So those kind of caused some hurdles for us, and 0:11:15.320 --> 0:11:21.360 then Judge Rosenberg faulted the plaintiffs were relying upon the 0:11:21.440 --> 0:11:25.840 Balashore laboratory results. And then also another study that came 0:11:25.880 --> 0:11:31.320 out from Stanford around that same time, but after the 0:11:31.360 --> 0:11:35.400 issues with the Valshore laboratory studies and potentially some issues 0:11:35.440 --> 0:11:39.040 with their equipment that they used. The Stanford study ended 0:11:39.080 --> 0:11:46.439 up being retracted by the authors as well, so throughout 0:11:46.480 --> 0:11:54.640 her analysis, Judge Rosenberg noted that only the scientists in 0:11:54.720 --> 0:11:57.880 this litigation, they are the only people that have come 0:11:57.960 --> 0:12:01.880 forward and concluded that renidadin caused is cancer. And even 0:12:01.960 --> 0:12:07.040 though the FDA have withdrawn it from the market, which 0:12:07.080 --> 0:12:10.079 is a very unusual step, that alone isn't going to 0:12:10.160 --> 0:12:12.840 be enough for us to get over the hurdle and 0:12:12.960 --> 0:12:17.480 get the experts admit it and past Auburn and Judge 0:12:17.559 --> 0:12:21.200 Rosenberg found that all the experts that were put forward 0:12:21.240 --> 0:12:26.960 by plainiffs utilized unreliable methodologies and there was a lack 0:12:27.000 --> 0:12:32.120 of documentations on how the experiments were conducted, a lack 0:12:32.160 --> 0:12:37.520 of statistical significance, a lack of internal consistency, objective and 0:12:37.640 --> 0:12:41.680 science based standards for the evaluation of the data. Because 0:12:41.679 --> 0:12:45.080 what ended up happening was the plaintiffs relied a lot 0:12:45.280 --> 0:12:52.000 upon their own epidemiologists who conducted studies and then made 0:12:52.600 --> 0:12:56.760 some opinions, and the judge found that that type of 0:12:56.800 --> 0:13:00.000 methodology isn't the type that was consistent within the science 0:13:00.000 --> 0:13:05.160 antipic community. And therefore ended up excluding all of the 0:13:05.160 --> 0:13:09.040 plaintiff experts. It was a very well written and well 0:13:09.120 --> 0:13:14.199 reasoned three hundred page Dalbird opinion. And because all of 0:13:14.280 --> 0:13:19.480 the experts got excluded, basically summary judgment ended up getting 0:13:19.520 --> 0:13:21.960 granted in favor of the defendants. So all of the 0:13:22.040 --> 0:13:26.600 cases that ended up staying in the MDL, and so 0:13:26.720 --> 0:13:31.600 those were cases where there was a diversity between a 0:13:31.600 --> 0:13:36.160 planeiff and the defendant, they all ended up getting kicked 0:13:36.200 --> 0:13:39.400 out and a judgment got entered in favor of the 0:13:39.440 --> 0:13:42.440 defendants for all of those cases, which ended up being 0:13:42.480 --> 0:13:44.360 about forty or fifty. 0:13:44.080 --> 0:13:44.840 Thousand of them. 0:13:46.160 --> 0:13:49.520 Wow, okay, So what do you think the chances are 0:13:49.679 --> 0:13:53.640 reversal on appeal? I mean, I mean I should preface 0:13:53.679 --> 0:13:56.560 that that it's going it's going to be appealed, and 0:13:56.600 --> 0:13:59.040 I think I notice of appeals have been filed, So 0:14:00.000 --> 0:14:02.920 and what do you think the chances are of reversing that? Really? 0:14:03.720 --> 0:14:04.960 Yeah, that's correct. 0:14:05.040 --> 0:14:09.280 The notice appeal has been filed for the eleventh Circuit, 0:14:10.200 --> 0:14:12.880 and usually in Eleventh Circuit the time from the notice 0:14:12.880 --> 0:14:16.200 of appealed to decision is about a year. So around 0:14:16.200 --> 0:14:19.640 this time next year, we'll have a better idea but overall, 0:14:19.720 --> 0:14:22.800 the success rate in state and federal courts is anywhere 0:14:22.800 --> 0:14:27.080 between seven and twenty percent. And the Eleventh Circuit in particular, 0:14:27.520 --> 0:14:30.640 which was established in nineteen eighty one and has jurisdiction 0:14:30.720 --> 0:14:35.160 over federal courts in the southeastern states of Alabama, Georgia, 0:14:35.160 --> 0:14:39.240 and Florida, where we are usually something like this, has 0:14:39.280 --> 0:14:47.040 an average appeal success rate of somewhere seven percent. So, 0:14:47.800 --> 0:14:50.560 although I think there's some good arguments being made, again, 0:14:50.880 --> 0:14:53.360 I'm on the plane of side and represent these clients. 0:14:54.680 --> 0:14:57.320 If we're just looking at the statistics of it, we 0:14:57.400 --> 0:15:01.080 have about a seven percent chance of success on this appeal. 0:15:01.600 --> 0:15:06.720 Got it? So I understand they're about eighty thousand state cases. 0:15:06.960 --> 0:15:10.080 The vast majority of them are in Delaware State Court, 0:15:10.720 --> 0:15:13.520 some are in California, and they're smattering in other jurisdictions 0:15:13.520 --> 0:15:15.960 as well. What do you think the impact of that 0:15:16.040 --> 0:15:19.240 federal court decision is on a court's handling the state cases. 0:15:20.920 --> 0:15:24.480 Yeah, so the largest stocket is Delaware right now. There's 0:15:24.520 --> 0:15:28.840 a little over seventy thousand cases filed and pending there. 0:15:29.160 --> 0:15:34.040 We just recently served our expert reports and the experts 0:15:34.040 --> 0:15:37.440 depositions for the plaintiff and defense experts are going to 0:15:37.440 --> 0:15:42.000 be starting here in October twenty twenty three. We're looking 0:15:42.640 --> 0:15:45.960 to have an argument on the experts in the beginning 0:15:46.280 --> 0:15:49.000 of twenty twenty four, and I would expect the decision 0:15:49.080 --> 0:15:52.360 sometime in the first quarter twenty twenty four. 0:15:53.000 --> 0:15:57.119 What is going on in Delaware is we're no longer only. 0:15:56.920 --> 0:16:02.160 Accepting the top five designated canters that were identified by 0:16:02.200 --> 0:16:06.400 leadership in the MDL, So we're actually pursuing a larger 0:16:06.440 --> 0:16:10.440 body of cancers and we're looking at ten different cancers. 0:16:10.880 --> 0:16:16.160 And so obviously the Judge Rosenberg's opinion from them DL 0:16:17.440 --> 0:16:20.160 was not in favor of plaintiffs, and so what we 0:16:20.200 --> 0:16:22.920 did is we tried to learn from that decision. We 0:16:23.040 --> 0:16:27.280 identified the different areas where Judge Rosenberg's fault at the 0:16:27.320 --> 0:16:30.840 plaintiffs and our plaintiffs experts, and tried to address that 0:16:31.280 --> 0:16:35.440 with new experts that we've retained. And subsequent to the 0:16:35.600 --> 0:16:39.200 MDL being formed and the expert ruling there, which was 0:16:39.400 --> 0:16:42.560 about a year ago, there have been additional studies that 0:16:42.600 --> 0:16:49.400 have come down, so we think that we were going 0:16:49.480 --> 0:16:54.160 to be successful getting some of these experts passed the 0:16:54.200 --> 0:16:56.760 expert ruling. Here in the beginning of twenty twenty four, 0:16:57.120 --> 0:16:58.880 and how we're going to do it is kind of 0:16:59.000 --> 0:17:02.720 learned by maybe some of the critiques Judge Rosenberg had 0:17:02.760 --> 0:17:06.200 for us, and then also rely upon different experts who 0:17:06.240 --> 0:17:11.199 are certainly qualified and focusing more on their methodology to 0:17:11.280 --> 0:17:13.720 make sure that the Delaware judge doesn't have an issue 0:17:13.720 --> 0:17:14.040 with that. 0:17:14.600 --> 0:17:18.360 Got it. So in the in the multi district litigation 0:17:18.440 --> 0:17:20.360 that was in Florida that was before the federal court, 0:17:20.400 --> 0:17:23.600 they only pursued five cancers, is that correct? 0:17:24.400 --> 0:17:26.560 That's correct? They were only five in the NDL? 0:17:27.359 --> 0:17:30.880 Got it? And then how many how many cases were 0:17:31.359 --> 0:17:33.720 in Delaware? You said, I didn't quite hear that. 0:17:34.280 --> 0:17:37.720 Yeah, there's a little over seventy thousand cases currently. 0:17:37.400 --> 0:17:43.399 Pending, got it. And then you did say that some 0:17:43.480 --> 0:17:47.080 of the experts are all the experts different that you're 0:17:47.200 --> 0:17:49.880 you'd be that will be presented to the Delaware judge 0:17:49.920 --> 0:17:51.360 or are just some of them? 0:17:51.760 --> 0:17:53.879 I believe they're all new experts. 0:17:53.960 --> 0:17:57.560 I know for certain at least ninety ninety percent are 0:17:57.880 --> 0:17:59.919 maybe some on regulatory crossover. 0:18:00.520 --> 0:18:03.840 By we do have a whole new docket of experts there, 0:18:04.520 --> 0:18:04.920 got it. 0:18:05.480 --> 0:18:09.080 And so that brings me to my next question. In 0:18:09.240 --> 0:18:12.400 a March twenty third ruling by a California judge presiding 0:18:12.440 --> 0:18:16.280 over one of the state cases allowed a Xantech bladder 0:18:16.320 --> 0:18:20.400 cancer case to proceed to trial. That case eventually settled. 0:18:20.560 --> 0:18:24.199 Why do you think the California judge diverged from the 0:18:24.200 --> 0:18:27.320 federal court ruling And what read through, if any, does 0:18:27.359 --> 0:18:29.080 this have in the Delaware cases. 0:18:30.840 --> 0:18:34.200 Yeah, so, like you mentioned, that was the first case 0:18:34.240 --> 0:18:39.800 to go forward in California, where that's the second largest 0:18:39.840 --> 0:18:43.480 state court docket. There's several thousand cases there, I believe 0:18:43.520 --> 0:18:46.960 about three thousand, and this specific case was a bladder 0:18:47.000 --> 0:18:52.000 cancer case. And so Judge Grillo, who was overseeing it there, 0:18:52.960 --> 0:18:57.480 noted that the MDL order was only an unpublished decision 0:18:57.560 --> 0:19:01.119 by a federal trial court and it's not controlling on 0:19:01.359 --> 0:19:05.120 matters of state court law. So even though the California 0:19:05.200 --> 0:19:09.520 State Court and the federal court states are analogous in 0:19:09.560 --> 0:19:13.280 the standards they apply to the expert, the MDL would 0:19:13.320 --> 0:19:18.640 or wasn't dispositive. So Judge Grilla noted that the planetifs 0:19:18.640 --> 0:19:22.000 had come forward with a whole new docket of experts 0:19:22.040 --> 0:19:26.320 as well, and those were to be considered in California. 0:19:26.760 --> 0:19:30.239 And so what we ended up the attorneys ended up 0:19:30.240 --> 0:19:33.639 doing there in California is there were nine new experts 0:19:33.640 --> 0:19:39.920 that came forward and ultimately the majority of them got 0:19:40.000 --> 0:19:44.639 through one and then there were two or three experts 0:19:44.960 --> 0:19:47.960 that a portion of their testimony got excluded. But we 0:19:48.040 --> 0:19:53.600 had a pharmacologist, a bio analytic chemists, we had uh 0:19:53.920 --> 0:19:57.320 an on, a cologist, we had a chemist, we had 0:19:57.359 --> 0:20:01.520 two medical on a coologists on specific causation and regulatory 0:20:02.000 --> 0:20:06.680 So we were happy to see that Judge Grillo, even 0:20:06.720 --> 0:20:11.480 though we had the unfortunate MDL ruling. Judge Grilla looked 0:20:11.520 --> 0:20:17.240 at these experts individually, evaluated them, evaluated the methodology, which 0:20:17.240 --> 0:20:21.040 again we think strong, and we're using those similar type 0:20:21.040 --> 0:20:24.960 of tactics in Delaware. So based upon this new decision 0:20:24.960 --> 0:20:28.280 in California, the more recent one from March of twenty 0:20:28.320 --> 0:20:32.720 twenty three, we feel and a little bit better and 0:20:33.640 --> 0:20:37.600 optimistic about some of the experts getting through in Delaware. 0:20:40.320 --> 0:20:44.000 Interesting, so I'm going to shift gears a little bit, 0:20:44.560 --> 0:20:50.800 shifts from Zantac to roundup litigation. But we have background. 0:20:50.880 --> 0:20:55.000 Another company facing thousands of productal liability claims is Monsanto. 0:20:55.200 --> 0:20:59.560 With respect to it, we'd killer roundup mon Santo faced 0:20:59.680 --> 0:21:03.320 over one hundred thousand lawsuits leging and twee killer causes, 0:21:03.640 --> 0:21:07.360 non Hochkins and FOMA. It entered into agreements to resolve 0:21:07.440 --> 0:21:10.879 about one hundred thousand cases for around eleven billion dollars, 0:21:10.920 --> 0:21:13.760 but it's estimated that there are still somewhere between forty 0:21:13.800 --> 0:21:17.520 to fifty thousand cases left. Joe, why do you think 0:21:17.680 --> 0:21:20.639 these case the forty to fifty thousand, Why do you 0:21:20.680 --> 0:21:22.760 think these cases have not settled yet? 0:21:24.200 --> 0:21:25.080 That's a great question. 0:21:25.200 --> 0:21:29.280 Then what happened when the Roundup litigation here is the 0:21:29.920 --> 0:21:34.120 defendants have been unable to get finality on the cases 0:21:34.160 --> 0:21:38.200 that are out there. And so usually when the defendants 0:21:38.240 --> 0:21:40.919 are in a mass toward and able to settle a 0:21:41.000 --> 0:21:44.760 large group of cases, they do so because they no 0:21:44.800 --> 0:21:50.120 longer face exposure going forward. So we're talking about Zantac 0:21:50.200 --> 0:21:54.800 earlier because the product was withdrawn from the market. That's 0:21:54.840 --> 0:21:57.560 going to be the trigger date of the statute of 0:21:57.560 --> 0:22:01.040 limitations beginning to run similar like you see going on 0:22:01.160 --> 0:22:05.240 right now in Campa June. That date that the Act 0:22:05.560 --> 0:22:08.520 got put in place in August of twenty twenty two, 0:22:08.960 --> 0:22:12.560 that starts a two year window. Whereas in Roundup we 0:22:12.640 --> 0:22:17.160 still today have plaintiffs coming forward that were just recently diagnosed. 0:22:17.400 --> 0:22:20.600 And because there's a latency period of a number of years, 0:22:21.080 --> 0:22:24.400 even though the defendants settled these one hundred thousand cases 0:22:24.760 --> 0:22:27.880 two years or so, there's somebody that could have been 0:22:27.960 --> 0:22:31.280 using roundup in between that time period and just get 0:22:31.320 --> 0:22:35.520 diagnosed today, to get diagnosed tomorrow, or end up getting 0:22:35.520 --> 0:22:38.840 diagnosed in two or three years. So because the product 0:22:38.920 --> 0:22:42.800 is still on the market, they're facing challenges of bringing 0:22:42.840 --> 0:22:47.120 this lawsuit to a complete close. So what they did 0:22:47.320 --> 0:22:50.919 is they no longer sell the traditional roundup that me 0:22:50.960 --> 0:22:54.639 and you know to every day consumers. So that was 0:22:54.680 --> 0:22:59.400 a tactic that they began to implement to hopefully bring 0:22:59.440 --> 0:23:02.720 the litigation to an end from their perspective. 0:23:04.760 --> 0:23:09.320 Got it. So, how do you think, given that issue, 0:23:09.359 --> 0:23:11.800 how do you see this litigation playing out over the 0:23:11.840 --> 0:23:14.359 next year or so. 0:23:14.640 --> 0:23:16.800 There were a lot of firms that did settle their 0:23:16.840 --> 0:23:19.600 dockets and were included in that one hundred thousand, But 0:23:19.720 --> 0:23:22.800 like you said, there's still forty thousand plus cases still 0:23:22.800 --> 0:23:25.159 out there, a lot of lawsuits that are pending. So 0:23:25.640 --> 0:23:27.679 how I see it playing out is there's going to 0:23:27.680 --> 0:23:31.200 be a number of trials there's going to be trials 0:23:31.240 --> 0:23:35.359 going on in Missouri, where the defendant's headquarters. There's also 0:23:36.000 --> 0:23:40.399 upcoming Bellweather trials starting here in October of twenty twenty 0:23:40.400 --> 0:23:44.359 three in Philadelphia, with the very aggressive trial schedule through 0:23:44.400 --> 0:23:47.640 the first quarter, so I anticipate over the next six 0:23:47.720 --> 0:23:52.080 months or so, we'll have maybe between half a dozen 0:23:52.200 --> 0:23:56.320 to ten jewelry verdicts, and then that will really let 0:23:56.400 --> 0:24:00.399 us know what the value of these cases are. And 0:24:00.440 --> 0:24:05.760 then recently there was a new general counsel that joined 0:24:06.600 --> 0:24:09.120 in this summer, so I think he's getting a feel 0:24:09.160 --> 0:24:12.080 for the litigation and what to expect going forward. But 0:24:12.200 --> 0:24:17.280 I envisioned that a lot of jewelry verdicts are going 0:24:17.359 --> 0:24:19.760 to come out in the coming months, and then based 0:24:19.840 --> 0:24:22.920 upon that, we'll have an idea of what the cases 0:24:22.920 --> 0:24:26.280 they're worth. And then I would imagine by the end 0:24:26.280 --> 0:24:29.720 of twenty twenty four most of these cases are in 0:24:29.800 --> 0:24:31.640 some sort of settlement posture. 0:24:33.280 --> 0:24:38.480 Got it interesting. Another company facing a number of personal 0:24:38.520 --> 0:24:42.600 initry cases is Phillips. The litigation against Phillips is related 0:24:42.640 --> 0:24:46.720 to we called C PAP and B PAP machines used 0:24:46.760 --> 0:24:49.800 for sleep APNA, and there are allegations that the phone 0:24:49.880 --> 0:24:53.480 using the machine degrees and could cause injury, including cancer. 0:24:54.040 --> 0:24:57.879 One transcript from July twenty twenty two said that about 0:24:57.920 --> 0:25:01.720 sixty thousand people had entered into agreements. Do you think 0:25:01.720 --> 0:25:04.240 a settlement in this case would be easier to achieve 0:25:04.280 --> 0:25:07.399 than say, in Gleco litigation, And if so, why. 0:25:08.280 --> 0:25:11.160 I think a settlement's definitely going to be a lot easier. 0:25:11.320 --> 0:25:16.280 And the reason is because of finality. Similar to what 0:25:16.440 --> 0:25:19.960 happened with Zantec when there was a recall, Phillips here 0:25:20.160 --> 0:25:25.080