WEBVTT - It Could Happen Here Weekly 89 0:00:00.280 --> 0:00:02.680 Hey, everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let 0:00:02.759 --> 0:00:06.359 you know this is a compilation episode, So every episode 0:00:06.519 --> 0:00:09.440 of the week that just happened is here in one 0:00:09.520 --> 0:00:13.280 convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to 0:00:13.320 --> 0:00:15.800 listen to in a long stretch if you want. If 0:00:15.800 --> 0:00:17.720 you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, 0:00:17.760 --> 0:00:19.520 there's going to be nothing new here for you, but 0:00:19.880 --> 0:00:21.600 you can make your own decisions. 0:00:26.640 --> 0:00:31.600 Happy Monday, and we have a very special Monday episode. 0:00:31.760 --> 0:00:36.240 We're doing a return of our Shitty Mayor Monday episodes 0:00:36.280 --> 0:00:38.600 for this Monday, June. 0:00:40.200 --> 0:00:40.520 Whatever. 0:00:40.560 --> 0:00:46.199 The date is, twenty sixth, during the sixth week of 0:00:46.240 --> 0:00:50.479 action in Atlanta to stop Cop City, so that is ongoing. 0:00:50.479 --> 0:00:52.040 We're recording this is lightly ahead of times so that 0:00:52.080 --> 0:00:54.120 we can release it during the week. So we don't 0:00:54.200 --> 0:00:57.080 know what exactly how exactly. 0:00:56.840 --> 0:00:59.160 Things are going to get this report. Nobody's been arrested 0:00:59.200 --> 0:01:00.960 so far, everything's gone great. 0:01:01.200 --> 0:01:04.000 Yeah, it's sure. So yeah, we don't quite know what 0:01:04.120 --> 0:01:06.120 the first kickoff rally is going to be quite yet, 0:01:06.480 --> 0:01:10.240 but we do want to talk a little bit about 0:01:10.280 --> 0:01:14.040 a certain mayor for this Shitty Mayor Monday, and I 0:01:14.800 --> 0:01:19.720 have convinced Matt from the Atlantic Community Press Collective to 0:01:19.959 --> 0:01:25.560 do my work for me this episode by writing probably 0:01:25.600 --> 0:01:28.640 too many words about may Or Andre Dickens. 0:01:29.080 --> 0:01:30.640 It was only a little over what you told me 0:01:30.640 --> 0:01:31.080 to write. 0:01:31.360 --> 0:01:33.000 That's good. That's good. That's good. 0:01:33.959 --> 0:01:38.800 So yeah, let's hear about. Let's hear about mister Dickens. 0:01:39.280 --> 0:01:40.960 Matt to take take it away. 0:01:41.160 --> 0:01:45.320 All right, So Andrea to Shawn. Dickens was born June seventeenth, 0:01:45.440 --> 0:01:48.400 nineteen seventy four, the younger of two children. His mother 0:01:48.480 --> 0:01:52.000 divorced Dickens's birth father before he was born, but stepfather 0:01:52.040 --> 0:01:55.360 adopted him and his sister when Dickens was seven. Working 0:01:55.400 --> 0:01:58.160 as an airline mechanic, Dickens' stepfather taught him how to 0:01:58.200 --> 0:02:01.240 take things apart and put them back together, creating an 0:02:01.280 --> 0:02:04.520 early interest in engineering for young Andre. He grew up 0:02:04.560 --> 0:02:07.680 in Adamsville neighborhood, which went to Benjamin E. Mays High School, 0:02:07.880 --> 0:02:11.480 which is in southwest Atlanta. Dickens says the neighborhood kids 0:02:11.480 --> 0:02:13.919 were rough around the edges, as he told Atlanta Magazine 0:02:13.960 --> 0:02:17.200 and quote, we fought often, but when the fighting escalated 0:02:17.240 --> 0:02:20.320 to bats and brass knuckles, he changed course and turned 0:02:20.320 --> 0:02:24.720 to baseball in books instead. At age sixteen, Dickens decided 0:02:24.880 --> 0:02:27.720 that he wanted to be mayor after watching then Mayor 0:02:27.760 --> 0:02:30.560 Andrew Young. This is about the time he also met 0:02:30.560 --> 0:02:34.079 Shirley Franklin, whose son he played baseball with. Franklin was 0:02:34.160 --> 0:02:37.120 Mayor Young's chief administrative officer at the time and spent 0:02:37.440 --> 0:02:40.520 time mentoring Dickens as a teenager. She would also go 0:02:40.600 --> 0:02:41.960 on to become mayor herself. 0:02:42.000 --> 0:02:44.799 Okay, so Andrew Young, I know that name because that's 0:02:44.800 --> 0:02:47.400 the street where the hard Rock Cafe is. 0:02:47.400 --> 0:02:49.560 Is the street where the hard Rock Cafe is. He 0:02:49.639 --> 0:02:53.640 went on to become an ambassador, ambassador to the hard 0:02:53.680 --> 0:02:55.480 Rock to the hard Rock Cafe. That's also where the 0:02:55.520 --> 0:03:00.359 Swat vehicle hung out across the Hooters exactly. Yeah, very 0:03:00.360 --> 0:03:01.600 notable street in Atlanta. 0:03:01.840 --> 0:03:02.960 Yeah. 0:03:03.000 --> 0:03:07.360 After a week long Minorities Interested in Technology and Engineering 0:03:07.360 --> 0:03:10.079 program at Georgia Tech this summer before his senior year, 0:03:10.240 --> 0:03:13.359 someone from the program handed him an application to Georgia Tech, 0:03:13.440 --> 0:03:15.280 which he filled out while waiting on his mom to 0:03:15.280 --> 0:03:18.079 pick him up. Tech was the only college that Dickens 0:03:18.160 --> 0:03:18.640 applied to. 0:03:19.120 --> 0:03:22.079 Huh, I mostly know Georgia Tech as the place that 0:03:22.600 --> 0:03:24.880 like Raytheon and Lackey Martin go to recruit a whole 0:03:24.880 --> 0:03:26.000 bunch of their employees. 0:03:26.320 --> 0:03:29.200 Yeah, you know, it's it's the tech engineering school of 0:03:29.240 --> 0:03:32.680 the South, and all the good weapons manufacturers need to 0:03:32.680 --> 0:03:35.800 get their good Southern engineering. Yeah, he did not go 0:03:35.920 --> 0:03:38.920 that route, But it is kind of rare for black 0:03:38.960 --> 0:03:41.880 politicians in general to come from schools outside of the HBCUs. 0:03:41.920 --> 0:03:45.040 We've got that like big HBCU district here in Atlanta. 0:03:45.400 --> 0:03:46.320 Can explain what that is. 0:03:46.320 --> 0:03:49.960 Perfect historically black college and universities. There are a group 0:03:49.960 --> 0:03:53.000 of them in kind of just off downtown Atlanta in 0:03:53.040 --> 0:03:56.560 an area called the Atlanta University Center, So they're all 0:03:56.640 --> 0:03:59.600 kind of together in that area and that is where 0:03:59.640 --> 0:04:02.520 most of are like elected officials who become mayor come from. 0:04:02.680 --> 0:04:05.240 Dickens is only the second mayor since nineteen seventy four 0:04:05.360 --> 0:04:09.720 not to graduate from one of those HBCUs. But Dickens 0:04:09.840 --> 0:04:13.520 did join Kappa Alpha Psia, historically black fraternity when he 0:04:13.560 --> 0:04:16.360 went to Tech and was a member of the student government, 0:04:16.480 --> 0:04:19.200 kind of keeping his dream of being mayor alive. But 0:04:20.000 --> 0:04:23.960 after graduations, he briefly left the state before returning home 0:04:23.960 --> 0:04:25.440 in two thousand and two to take care of his 0:04:25.480 --> 0:04:28.159 ill mother. This is around the time that he started 0:04:28.160 --> 0:04:32.120 his public service career and he joined NPUD NPUs our 0:04:32.160 --> 0:04:35.520 Neighborhood Planning Units. Atlanta is broken up into twenty five 0:04:35.600 --> 0:04:37.800 of these neighborhood units and they're each given a letter 0:04:37.839 --> 0:04:40.240 of the alphabet. So they are advisory boards that give 0:04:40.279 --> 0:04:42.560 input to the city, but they can issue like zoning 0:04:42.640 --> 0:04:47.040 variances and some MPUs have built up like considerable power 0:04:47.080 --> 0:04:49.760 over their neighborhood. So this is where a lot of 0:04:49.800 --> 0:04:53.000 people like first plug into Atlanta government. 0:04:53.120 --> 0:04:55.039 Okay, So it's like, is this like really like the 0:04:55.120 --> 0:04:56.440 zoning board process? 0:04:56.560 --> 0:05:00.440 And yeah, if you need to get approval to have 0:05:00.520 --> 0:05:02.640 a bigger awning than you're supposed to have, you got 0:05:02.680 --> 0:05:03.960 to go through vmp to get it. 0:05:04.000 --> 0:05:04.279 Got it? 0:05:04.320 --> 0:05:07.200 Okay, So I'll consider that for when I want to 0:05:07.240 --> 0:05:08.120 expand my awning. 0:05:08.480 --> 0:05:11.760 Yes, you're onning or build your onning Okay, yeah. 0:05:11.839 --> 0:05:12.119 Yeah. 0:05:12.200 --> 0:05:15.279 At this point, Dickens and his sister also founded a 0:05:15.320 --> 0:05:19.240 business called City Living Home Furnishings, and the company is 0:05:19.279 --> 0:05:20.640 exactly what. 0:05:20.600 --> 0:05:23.279 It's a It's a furniture store. You found furniture. 0:05:25.320 --> 0:05:28.240 In an interview with Georgia State University later in his life. 0:05:28.240 --> 0:05:30.680 Dickens reflected that this is where he determined that he 0:05:30.760 --> 0:05:33.840 needed to act rightly to ensure his good reputation. 0:05:34.520 --> 0:05:39.880 What furniture store teach him this lesson? 0:05:39.960 --> 0:05:43.200 Oh well, he said, Imagine I'm on TV saying trust me, 0:05:43.440 --> 0:05:45.480 and all the people would have to do is call 0:05:45.560 --> 0:05:48.720 the Atlanta Journal, Constitution or radio and say your furniture 0:05:48.880 --> 0:05:52.800 was trash your history to somebody who are all these 0:05:52.839 --> 0:05:55.960 places that you know, You've really got to be consistent. 0:05:56.040 --> 0:05:58.200 It's what he said. And you know, it turns out. 0:06:00.080 --> 0:06:00.760 I have to know. 0:06:01.320 --> 0:06:04.599 Woh spoiler, he goes bankrupt. It turns out the AGAC 0:06:04.640 --> 0:06:06.800 wouldn't be much of a problem for Dickens, as we've 0:06:06.880 --> 0:06:08.800 learned years later, the paper would be on his side, 0:06:08.880 --> 0:06:11.680 bobbing those easy questions and helping him build support for 0:06:11.760 --> 0:06:14.880 cop City. So, like I said, the family business failed 0:06:14.880 --> 0:06:17.320 in twenty ten, you can't actually blame Dickens for it 0:06:17.640 --> 0:06:20.120 was a product of the of the Great Recession. 0:06:20.279 --> 0:06:22.400 Okay, So I wonder if we can still find any 0:06:22.440 --> 0:06:23.600 of his furniture lying around. 0:06:23.800 --> 0:06:26.280 So there's there's actually a store called City Living Home 0:06:26.320 --> 0:06:29.560 Furnish Furnishing, And I don't know if it's like. 0:06:29.800 --> 0:06:31.520 Somebody delayed at or Yeah. 0:06:31.520 --> 0:06:33.440 I tried to look it up and I couldn't like 0:06:33.440 --> 0:06:35.960 figure out if it was just somebody using the same 0:06:36.040 --> 0:06:38.839 name or not. But there's one that exists in like 0:06:38.960 --> 0:06:39.720 West Midtown. 0:06:40.440 --> 0:06:43.800 Okay, oh boy, sorry, we're gonna I'm gonna get a 0:06:43.839 --> 0:06:45.960 lot of comments from people in Atlanta down because you 0:06:46.000 --> 0:06:47.840 said a West Midtown. 0:06:48.680 --> 0:06:50.480 West Side or whatever you want to call it. 0:06:50.680 --> 0:06:55.600 It's it's a Southwest Piedmont. I don't know. 0:06:55.839 --> 0:06:58.960 There's there's also so no like south of North. Yeah, 0:06:58.960 --> 0:07:03.560 we have all of these these fun little street or 0:07:03.960 --> 0:07:07.960 neighborhood names. But so after the failing business, he changed 0:07:07.960 --> 0:07:11.000 course and went to GSU for a master's of Public 0:07:11.040 --> 0:07:15.440 Administration in economic Development. So this was after twenty ten, Yeah, 0:07:15.480 --> 0:07:19.640 after twenty ten. In twenty eleven he started attending his 0:07:19.720 --> 0:07:23.040 master's program at Georgia State University, and then he graduated 0:07:23.040 --> 0:07:26.560 in twenty thirteen, just in time for the municipal election season. 0:07:27.320 --> 0:07:30.520 So Atlanta City Council, as we've learned now, is comprised 0:07:30.560 --> 0:07:34.240 of twelve district seats and three city wide seats or 0:07:34.280 --> 0:07:36.640 what we call at large seats, and so Dickens ran 0:07:36.680 --> 0:07:40.160 for post three against an incumbent named h Lamar Willis. 0:07:41.080 --> 0:07:44.560 Dickens kind of historically when he has these campaigns, either 0:07:44.600 --> 0:07:47.280 has really good fortune or good insight in choosing his 0:07:47.320 --> 0:07:50.560 opponent or opponents. A month prior to the election, Willis 0:07:50.640 --> 0:07:53.720 was disbarred after the Georgia Supreme Court found that he 0:07:53.920 --> 0:07:57.640 violated numerous professional conduct rules, including it in two thousand 0:07:57.640 --> 0:08:00.720 and nine placing a settlement money from a child injury 0:08:00.760 --> 0:08:04.240 case into his personal bank account instead of giving it 0:08:04.280 --> 0:08:08.600 to the parents. Wait, really, yes, this guy, this guy 0:08:08.640 --> 0:08:12.560 is now back in Georgia government. He is he's part. 0:08:12.440 --> 0:08:15.080 Of like the beltline that that makes. 0:08:14.840 --> 0:08:19.440 Sense management program. So like this happened earlier this. 0:08:19.440 --> 0:08:21.640 Year stealing money from injured children. 0:08:21.800 --> 0:08:24.440 I think he gave it to the child eventually. But 0:08:24.480 --> 0:08:26.480 you're supposed to put these in like escrow accounts and 0:08:26.520 --> 0:08:28.200 not in your own account. 0:08:27.840 --> 0:08:28.960 To your personal account. 0:08:29.080 --> 0:08:29.560 No, So. 0:08:31.400 --> 0:08:35.199 Former Mayor Sureley Franklin indoors Dickens in the twenty three race, 0:08:35.360 --> 0:08:38.679 or former Mayor Surely Franklin indors Dickens in the twenty 0:08:38.679 --> 0:08:42.679 thirteen race, which drew iron attacks by both Willis, who 0:08:42.679 --> 0:08:46.240 called Dickens out for his bankruptcy of the furniture business, 0:08:46.760 --> 0:08:50.280 and what Willis alleged was quote unlawful use of Georgia 0:08:50.280 --> 0:08:54.839 Tech government property. So on the bankruptcy, Dickens went to 0:08:54.960 --> 0:08:57.400 about a million dollars in debt and had some taxlinges 0:08:57.400 --> 0:09:00.280 against him, which he's now discharged through both bankrupts in 0:09:00.280 --> 0:09:04.120 settling the tax leads. But the unlawful use of Georgia 0:09:04.200 --> 0:09:08.160 Tech Georgia government property, what is that? I have no idea. 0:09:08.280 --> 0:09:11.240 I don't know what they I searched pretty hard to 0:09:11.280 --> 0:09:13.560 try to find it, and I can't. Like other than 0:09:13.720 --> 0:09:16.800 Will willis making the claim, I found no evidence like. 0:09:17.240 --> 0:09:20.160 A computers who like what is. 0:09:19.840 --> 0:09:23.040 I'm assuming like, you know, probably something like he went 0:09:23.080 --> 0:09:25.920 to a computer lab and used it off hours for 0:09:26.000 --> 0:09:29.760 some personal, weird business. But yeah, I found nothing that 0:09:29.840 --> 0:09:33.920 actually really backs up the claim against him. So he 0:09:33.960 --> 0:09:36.400 won the election in November with fifty three percent of 0:09:36.440 --> 0:09:39.560 the vote, which is surprisingly strong victory for like a 0:09:39.600 --> 0:09:43.560 relatively unknown candidate like Dickens was at the time. During 0:09:43.559 --> 0:09:46.120 his first term twenty thirteen to twenty seventeen, Dickens worked 0:09:46.120 --> 0:09:48.440 pretty quietly, but towards the end of his term he 0:09:48.600 --> 0:09:51.360 started to introduce legislation make a name for himself, so 0:09:51.400 --> 0:09:55.319 he created a forty million dollar affordable housing bond, as 0:09:55.320 --> 0:09:57.640 well as a study to raise the minimum wage for 0:09:57.679 --> 0:10:01.360 city employees to fifteen dollars an hour, which ultimately led 0:10:01.360 --> 0:10:04.720 to the city enacting that wage. Diggins ran for his 0:10:04.800 --> 0:10:07.480 second term unopposed, so naturally he won. 0:10:07.840 --> 0:10:09.760 So that's twenty seventeen. 0:10:09.840 --> 0:10:12.040 Now we're a twenty seventeen to twenty twenty one, and 0:10:12.200 --> 0:10:14.360 this is where the story starts to get interesting. We'll 0:10:14.360 --> 0:10:16.360 see the themes that will play out in this first, 0:10:17.080 --> 0:10:18.760 you know, a couple of years as mayor. 0:10:18.600 --> 0:10:21.800 Well and we will learn about that story after these 0:10:21.840 --> 0:10:25.839 messages from our lovely sponsors or if you're subscribed to 0:10:25.880 --> 0:10:29.480 the new f Well Premium Plows the Cooler Zone media, 0:10:29.760 --> 0:10:31.400 you just hear us do the ad breaks without the 0:10:31.440 --> 0:10:36.480 ads at all. So in lieu of that by gold 0:10:36.960 --> 0:10:42.000 gold play by gold, played played guitars, guitars, Thank you 0:10:42.440 --> 0:10:43.880 by gold plated guitars. 0:10:44.880 --> 0:10:46.000 All right, we are back. 0:10:46.040 --> 0:10:50.920 I'm strumming away on my on my electric gold plated bass. 0:10:51.640 --> 0:10:53.920 Doesn't sound good. It doesn't sound like it's supposed to. 0:10:54.040 --> 0:10:56.400 Yeah, Daniell cut cut out all of the all of 0:10:56.440 --> 0:10:59.120 the bad bass. Actually, I can go get my accordion 0:10:59.160 --> 0:10:59.920 and play that instead. 0:11:00.040 --> 0:11:01.480 Do you want let's not all right? 0:11:01.520 --> 0:11:07.120 Well continue, So we're in twenty eighteen now, so in 0:11:07.200 --> 0:11:10.959 twenty normal year, it completely normal year for Atlanta. Nothing 0:11:11.120 --> 0:11:14.360 happened anywhere else in the world. One of the biggest 0:11:14.360 --> 0:11:16.920 conversations that was going around in Atlanta in twenty eighteen 0:11:17.000 --> 0:11:21.240 revolved around an area of downtown called the Gulch. So, 0:11:21.600 --> 0:11:23.520 this is the area that's surrounded by most of our 0:11:23.559 --> 0:11:26.880 sports team venues, kind of like where Centennial Olympic Park is, 0:11:27.600 --> 0:11:30.679 and the streets are all elevated in that area around 0:11:31.000 --> 0:11:33.480 above ground level and at the bottom of the ground level, 0:11:33.520 --> 0:11:37.520 it's like these early twentieth century like railway lines, but 0:11:37.559 --> 0:11:40.600 it's mostly parking lots for those those to the stadiums 0:11:40.920 --> 0:11:44.160 for the stadiums. And it's known as the gulch because 0:11:44.200 --> 0:11:46.600 you know, kind of which is a break in the ground. 0:11:46.760 --> 0:11:49.640 Yeah, it looks it looks it's like a gulch kind of. 0:11:50.640 --> 0:11:56.000 So back in it's like, ooh wow. 0:11:56.320 --> 0:11:59.560 Back in twenty twenty twenty twelve, then Mayor cassim Re 0:11:59.679 --> 0:12:02.559 present in an idea to give a Los Angeles based 0:12:02.640 --> 0:12:05.280 firm a million dollars to build the Gulch into a 0:12:05.360 --> 0:12:09.360 mixed use high rise area. The legislation finally passed in 0:12:09.400 --> 0:12:12.400 twenty eighteen, but Andrea Dickens voted against it, saying correctly 0:12:12.440 --> 0:12:14.679 that there wasn't enough focus in the development plans on 0:12:14.720 --> 0:12:19.200 the housing affordability and this helped cement Dickens's reputation as 0:12:19.240 --> 0:12:20.680 a housing affordability advocate. 0:12:20.760 --> 0:12:22.559 And yeah, because he also did that forty million dollars. 0:12:22.679 --> 0:12:24.839 Yeah, he just did that forty million dollars bond. And 0:12:25.000 --> 0:12:27.480 we'll have some more affordable housing stuff later. But you know, 0:12:27.520 --> 0:12:29.559 I should say, we're like five years on now and 0:12:29.800 --> 0:12:32.439 the Gulch hasn't be gone, but they're they're trying to 0:12:32.440 --> 0:12:35.160 get it done. But before the World Cup comes in. 0:12:35.320 --> 0:12:37.680 Yeah, they're also it seems like they've been preoccupied with 0:12:37.720 --> 0:12:41.760 another another construction construction project that's getting much more of 0:12:41.760 --> 0:12:44.679 the mayor's attention, which oddly does not have anything to 0:12:44.760 --> 0:12:45.720 do with affordable housing. 0:12:46.679 --> 0:12:50.960 No, it just not. Dickens also introduced legislation that led 0:12:51.000 --> 0:12:53.600 to the creation of the Atlanta Department of Transportation, which, 0:12:53.640 --> 0:12:56.319 if I'm being fair, was a good idea and pretty 0:12:56.360 --> 0:13:00.440 necessary to help address bennis decaying road infrastructure. Proven no, 0:13:00.520 --> 0:13:00.840 the roads. 0:13:00.880 --> 0:13:01.480 You're fine. 0:13:01.600 --> 0:13:05.480 Yeah, so you drove on you complained when we had 0:13:05.480 --> 0:13:08.000 this last week of action about Decab Avenue and all 0:13:08.000 --> 0:13:11.160 of the potholes. Yeah, and that is now repaved. That 0:13:11.280 --> 0:13:14.240 got repavedy a couple of weeks ago. They're in the 0:13:14.240 --> 0:13:15.160 process of repaving it. 0:13:15.240 --> 0:13:17.800 So the infrastructure working. 0:13:17.920 --> 0:13:21.800 It's my favorite part. My new favorite part is Moreland 0:13:22.120 --> 0:13:25.960 is that usually around Moreland's Drive there's an area where 0:13:25.960 --> 0:13:27.679 you're where you're trying to get to the Wanti Forest 0:13:27.720 --> 0:13:30.520 that just is always constantly flooded no matter what. And 0:13:30.600 --> 0:13:32.840 that's that's my favorite area of Atlanta. 0:13:32.920 --> 0:13:35.280 And I hear that if you get rid of a forest, 0:13:35.800 --> 0:13:37.920 that will improve flood helps it flooding because there's more 0:13:37.920 --> 0:13:39.880 space for the dirt to soak in water exactly. 0:13:39.960 --> 0:13:41.840 Yea, that is how that works. It is science. 0:13:42.520 --> 0:13:45.720 So in twenty nineteen, Dickens introduced legislation to create a 0:13:45.760 --> 0:13:48.880 task force to decide how to repurpose the Atlanta City 0:13:48.880 --> 0:13:51.680 Detention Center or a CDC, which is really weird. Every 0:13:51.679 --> 0:13:54.400 time I hear a CDC, I think of this thing, 0:13:54.440 --> 0:13:57.760 it's jail, and everybody else is talking about something entirely different. 0:13:58.000 --> 0:13:58.160 Huh. 0:13:58.720 --> 0:14:00.600 So it was built in ninety nine. He's leading up 0:14:00.640 --> 0:14:02.719 to the Olympics, and replaced an older jail that now 0:14:02.760 --> 0:14:05.160 serves as our primary homeless shelter. 0:14:05.760 --> 0:14:08.160 So that's what ACDC is now. 0:14:09.400 --> 0:14:11.560 It's called the Gateway Center. Now that was the old jail. 0:14:11.600 --> 0:14:13.480 ACDC is the current jail. 0:14:13.559 --> 0:14:14.240 Okay, Okay. 0:14:14.559 --> 0:14:18.800 So, in a press release, after Bottom signed this legislation 0:14:18.960 --> 0:14:20.400 to create the task force. 0:14:20.200 --> 0:14:23.040 Who's bottom? Who's Bottoms? 0:14:24.080 --> 0:14:27.480 So from twenty seventeen to twenty twenty one, Atlanta had 0:14:27.480 --> 0:14:33.200 a mayor name Lance Bottoms, and she was great and 0:14:33.240 --> 0:14:36.920 did not approve legislation about cop City at all. 0:14:37.200 --> 0:14:39.600 She did not. She did, she did, she did. So 0:14:39.600 --> 0:14:41.840 it was a lot. You just lied. I lied. 0:14:42.040 --> 0:14:45.520 You already purposely spread misinformation on my news podcast. 0:14:46.640 --> 0:14:46.920 Okay. 0:14:47.000 --> 0:14:52.320 So Michael Smith was Bottoms press secretary and also currently 0:14:52.360 --> 0:14:55.200 serving as Dickens press secretary. So he wrote that this 0:14:55.320 --> 0:14:58.720 legislation that authorized the task force actually authorized Bottoms to 0:14:58.720 --> 0:15:00.760 close the jail, but the order and it did not 0:15:01.520 --> 0:15:05.080 create that authorization, only authorized this task force to recommend 0:15:05.080 --> 0:15:08.480 future uses of the site should it close, And this 0:15:08.600 --> 0:15:11.400 is going to be important. The task force met for 0:15:11.440 --> 0:15:14.520 about a year before turning into options which brings us 0:15:14.560 --> 0:15:17.600 to June twenty twenty. We're going to skip straight over 0:15:17.600 --> 0:15:19.760 there with all of this going on. 0:15:19.840 --> 0:15:22.800 So what was happening in June twenty twenty in Atlanta? 0:15:22.920 --> 0:15:25.520 There were some protests going on, which we're going to 0:15:25.680 --> 0:15:28.480 key in just after the jail fight. But the task 0:15:28.520 --> 0:15:32.240 force offered four options, and the city indicated that was 0:15:32.280 --> 0:15:34.080 going to go with the second cheapest of the four, 0:15:34.120 --> 0:15:36.600 which was redoing the facade of the jail and turning 0:15:36.600 --> 0:15:39.400 the interior into a center for diversions. So instead of 0:15:39.480 --> 0:15:41.840 having a city jail, we would have this multi storied 0:15:41.840 --> 0:15:46.280 diversion center to stop people from going into the criminal 0:15:46.400 --> 0:15:49.680 justice system. And in the middle of the summer of 0:15:49.680 --> 0:15:50.640 twenty twenty. 0:15:50.400 --> 0:15:54.160 This was how is that not just a jail, it's you. 0:15:54.120 --> 0:15:57.120 Don't enter the criminal legal system. Yeah, so you don't 0:15:57.200 --> 0:15:59.160 talk to you're not in front of a judge, you 0:15:59.240 --> 0:16:02.720 are not techly arrested. You are given resources, and you 0:16:02.760 --> 0:16:08.440 are given options to you know, attend courses or counseling 0:16:08.520 --> 0:16:12.160 or whatever you need instead of entering like the criminal 0:16:12.200 --> 0:16:14.560 justice And so we have a diversion program here called 0:16:14.720 --> 0:16:19.000 Policing's Alternatives and Diversions or PAD, which operates in every 0:16:19.080 --> 0:16:23.080 zone of the city, and is is you know, if 0:16:23.160 --> 0:16:28.120 somebody gets arrested, like stealing basic substance stuff, they are 0:16:28.200 --> 0:16:31.640 supposed to contact PAD and enter them into a diversion 0:16:31.640 --> 0:16:34.320 program where they get help instead of going to jail. 0:16:34.480 --> 0:16:34.800 Okay. 0:16:35.000 --> 0:16:39.640 And it works to the extent that the city of 0:16:39.880 --> 0:16:43.200 or it works to the extent that APD actually does 0:16:43.280 --> 0:16:48.000 contact PAD. And it depends on kind of the zone 0:16:48.360 --> 0:16:52.200 how effective it is. But basically, at this point everyone 0:16:52.240 --> 0:16:55.200 agreed that the jail was going to end its time 0:16:55.240 --> 0:16:57.560 as a carceral space and become this diversion center to 0:16:57.600 --> 0:17:02.000 help people avoid entering the criminal system. So put it 0:17:02.040 --> 0:17:03.120 in that that is the plan. 0:17:03.280 --> 0:17:06.160 Okay. This is during June of twenty twenty. 0:17:05.960 --> 0:17:09.240 During June of twenty two nation Okay, because of course, 0:17:09.320 --> 0:17:11.240 the bigger news of the summer of twenty twenty was 0:17:11.280 --> 0:17:14.080 the George Floyd uprising, and at that point in Atlanta, 0:17:14.200 --> 0:17:17.199 the killing of Rayshard Brooks by Garrett Rolf at the 0:17:17.240 --> 0:17:18.720 Wendy's in Southeast Atlanta. 0:17:18.880 --> 0:17:19.840 Yeah. 0:17:19.880 --> 0:17:23.240 So after the killing of Brooks, Dickens posted on an 0:17:23.240 --> 0:17:27.000 Instagram saying, quote, I am saddened to start this day 0:17:27.040 --> 0:17:29.439 with news of another black person killed by police and 0:17:29.560 --> 0:17:32.600 especially dismayed to see it happen in our city. Police 0:17:32.680 --> 0:17:35.959 must de escalate situations like these before they turned deadly. 0:17:36.320 --> 0:17:39.560 Once the suspect fled, unarmed and intoxicated through a parking 0:17:39.600 --> 0:17:42.320 lot of bystanders, this could have become an investigation rather 0:17:42.359 --> 0:17:46.520 than a shooting. So, undoubtedly spurred by the fervor and 0:17:46.600 --> 0:17:49.879 uproar of that summer, Dickens also co sponsored legislation with 0:17:49.920 --> 0:17:53.800 fellow council members Antonio Brown and Michael Julian Bond that 0:17:53.880 --> 0:17:57.720 would prohibit APD from using crowd control munitions in military 0:17:57.720 --> 0:18:02.800 style vehicles against protesters. Okay, this legislation, though, unsurprisingly, went nowhere, 0:18:02.840 --> 0:18:07.159 and we were shop by ever balls for you know, 0:18:07.240 --> 0:18:08.119 the rest of the summer. 0:18:08.320 --> 0:18:10.840 Yeah, and they still are using them. 0:18:11.040 --> 0:18:12.960 To this day. Yeah. 0:18:13.119 --> 0:18:15.119 But this is also happening at the tail end of 0:18:15.160 --> 0:18:17.679 budget season. So our budget season goes from like March 0:18:17.760 --> 0:18:21.239 to or April to June of every year. And the 0:18:21.280 --> 0:18:24.320 biggest debate in Council that summer was about withholding seventy 0:18:24.359 --> 0:18:26.879 three million dollars, or about a quarter of the Atlanta 0:18:26.880 --> 0:18:31.160 Police Department's funding, and so we were actually positioned police 0:18:31.200 --> 0:18:34.879 defund the police, and while the legislation was under debate 0:18:35.080 --> 0:18:37.680 in City Council, thousands of residents called in for public comment. 0:18:37.760 --> 0:18:41.440 This is the only time that i've the only time 0:18:41.560 --> 0:18:44.399 estenment I've seen for this public comment was about seventeen 0:18:44.440 --> 0:18:47.280 hours according to mainline zine, I seem to recall it 0:18:47.280 --> 0:18:50.760 being longer, but around that, which is around seventeen. 0:18:50.640 --> 0:18:53.840 Comparable to the last public comment session related to COP city. 0:18:54.000 --> 0:18:57.640 Yeah, and comparable even to the first public comment. 0:18:57.440 --> 0:18:59.240 Session also seventeen now, yeah, yeah, yeah. 0:18:59.280 --> 0:19:01.920 So the actual vot happened on the a's especially called 0:19:02.000 --> 0:19:05.120 Saturday session of City Council. At the time, like all 0:19:05.160 --> 0:19:09.320 other municipalities, Council was meeting remotely through zoom. So the 0:19:09.359 --> 0:19:12.159 actual vote happened on a especially called Saturday session of 0:19:12.240 --> 0:19:15.119 City Council at the time, like all of the municipalities, 0:19:15.320 --> 0:19:17.919 Council was meeting remotely through zoom because of COVID. And 0:19:18.200 --> 0:19:19.720 we're going to play a clip of one of the 0:19:19.760 --> 0:19:22.480 few things that Dickens said during that debate and to 0:19:22.520 --> 0:19:24.919 set the scene. Council Member Dustin hillis one of the 0:19:25.040 --> 0:19:27.760 very pro COP members of council, proposed a much smaller 0:19:27.760 --> 0:19:30.119 cut to the budget in the amount of like a 0:19:30.119 --> 0:19:33.479 few million dollars to remove just quote unquote non essential 0:19:33.560 --> 0:19:37.160 expenditures from abd's budget, sure without risking cutting into actual 0:19:37.160 --> 0:19:39.840 pay for police or the raises to police stalary that 0:19:39.960 --> 0:19:43.960 Council and the Mayor's office previously promised. Because this was 0:19:44.000 --> 0:19:47.400 a special session on Saturday, Dickens was driving around his mother, 0:19:47.960 --> 0:19:49.840 so there's going to be a bit of background noise 0:19:49.880 --> 0:19:55.600 and the quality is not super outstanding, and it has now. 0:19:55.400 --> 0:19:57.359 As much as I'm trying to figure out a way 0:19:57.400 --> 0:20:01.120 to support it, if did come down to being two 0:20:01.200 --> 0:20:05.320 million dollars or three million dollars or each five million dollars, 0:20:05.840 --> 0:20:11.280 it just is so sort of reimagining. You can't reimagine 0:20:11.320 --> 0:20:16.720 something that's almost three hundred million and only take to 0:20:16.720 --> 0:20:19.920 the bombing and to reimagine it right and to kind 0:20:19.960 --> 0:20:23.560 of think through what all needs to be done at 0:20:23.600 --> 0:20:27.639 it send a strong signal that we want reform and 0:20:27.680 --> 0:20:29.120 we want change. 0:20:29.800 --> 0:20:32.000 What we hear in this clip is Dickens really doing 0:20:32.119 --> 0:20:34.359 what he's going to continue to do for the rest 0:20:34.520 --> 0:20:37.160 of his career. Make overtures to the public while still 0:20:37.240 --> 0:20:39.040 ensuring that at the end of the day, the police 0:20:39.040 --> 0:20:41.359 are taken care of He really wanted APD to know 0:20:41.400 --> 0:20:43.800 that their personal salaries were not only safe, but they 0:20:43.800 --> 0:20:45.879 were going to grow, and he would always be a 0:20:45.960 --> 0:20:49.880 champion of that. So we're going to skip here over 0:20:49.960 --> 0:20:52.359 at the Copsity vote in twenty twenty one. At this point, 0:20:52.400 --> 0:20:53.520 I think it's been If. 0:20:53.440 --> 0:20:56.560 You're listening to this show, you're also probably somewhat from there. 0:20:57.040 --> 0:20:59.720 There are several episodes that you can pause here and 0:20:59.720 --> 0:21:01.800 go back and listen to it to kind of catch 0:21:01.880 --> 0:21:06.480 up yes on on how that happened in twenty twenty one. 0:21:06.600 --> 0:21:09.400 So suffice it to say that Dickens did not fight 0:21:09.480 --> 0:21:12.000 against the legislation in its council phase and what was 0:21:12.400 --> 0:21:14.360 one of the ten votes to approve the Cops City 0:21:14.480 --> 0:21:17.280 lease in September of twenty twenty one. If anything, Dickens 0:21:17.359 --> 0:21:19.159 was one of the quieter members of council when it 0:21:19.160 --> 0:21:21.560 came to debating Cops City lease. He didn't really say 0:21:21.640 --> 0:21:26.080 much while the debates were happening. So the last few months, 0:21:26.119 --> 0:21:29.040 of course, of the Cops City fight happened during election season, 0:21:29.160 --> 0:21:31.400 and instead of running for a third term as council member, 0:21:31.400 --> 0:21:33.680 Dickens threw his hat in the ring for mayor which 0:21:33.760 --> 0:21:36.720 was an open race, with Mayor Bottoms withdrawing her candid seat. 0:21:37.240 --> 0:21:39.679 All the way back on May six a mid rumors 0:21:39.680 --> 0:21:42.280 that she was on the short list to be Biden's 0:21:42.320 --> 0:21:43.520 nod for VP. 0:21:43.640 --> 0:21:46.359 Which did which did not happen, which did not happen. 0:21:47.760 --> 0:21:50.680 So to understand how Dickens won this election, because spoiler, 0:21:50.760 --> 0:21:51.840 we're talking about. 0:21:51.920 --> 0:21:57.359 Dickensity mayor Monday Mayor Dickens, We've got to talk about 0:21:57.400 --> 0:22:00.560 how Atlanta runs its municipal elections and how or election 0:22:00.640 --> 0:22:04.200 law plays out in effect, and who the presumed front 0:22:04.240 --> 0:22:05.280 runners of the race were. 0:22:06.000 --> 0:22:09.240 First, municipal elections are run on a non partisan basis. 0:22:09.280 --> 0:22:11.640 There are no party primaries to eat out weaker candidates 0:22:11.640 --> 0:22:13.080 to run. All you need to do is get the 0:22:13.119 --> 0:22:15.800 required number of signatures, pay the fee, and file on time. 0:22:16.000 --> 0:22:18.240 So this leads to a pretty wide field of candidates 0:22:18.240 --> 0:22:21.960 than you see in most elections. Second is that quirk 0:22:22.040 --> 0:22:25.479 in Georgia election law that everyone is probably familiar with 0:22:25.760 --> 0:22:27.920 by this point in time from the last few national 0:22:28.000 --> 0:22:31.720 election cycles. In order to win Georgia outright, you need 0:22:31.800 --> 0:22:35.560 fifty percent of the vote plus one. If no candidate 0:22:35.680 --> 0:22:37.600 hits that number, then the top two candidates go to 0:22:37.600 --> 0:22:40.640 a runoff election. The state law also applies to any 0:22:40.720 --> 0:22:43.760 municipal elections for cities with the population higher than one 0:22:43.800 --> 0:22:45.719 hundred thousand people, like Atlanta. 0:22:45.720 --> 0:22:48.240 Look Atlanta, which has six hundred thousand. 0:22:48.080 --> 0:22:50.240 So just around five hundred thousand, I think it's like 0:22:50.240 --> 0:22:52.679 four hundred and ninety thousand at this point. But the 0:22:52.760 --> 0:22:55.800 greater metro areas, like the greater Metro area is something 0:22:55.840 --> 0:22:57.040 like six or seven million. 0:22:57.200 --> 0:22:58.360 Yeah. 0:22:58.600 --> 0:23:01.199 So the two front runners of the race were not 0:23:01.320 --> 0:23:04.040 exactly popular figures. I would go so far as to 0:23:04.040 --> 0:23:06.600 say it like in many cases votes were cast against them, 0:23:06.840 --> 0:23:10.000 like kind of like with Trump, instead of in support of. 0:23:10.040 --> 0:23:13.000 Instead of voting for Biden, you're voting against Trump. Yeah. 0:23:13.119 --> 0:23:16.600 So former Mayor Cassim Reid was one of those candidates. 0:23:16.640 --> 0:23:19.200 He left office in twenty seventeen after a second term. 0:23:19.760 --> 0:23:22.160 And then it has this two consecutive term limit, which 0:23:22.280 --> 0:23:24.720 Reid had reached. However, you can run for a third 0:23:24.760 --> 0:23:28.080 term if it's not consecutive. Okay, So during Reid's second term, 0:23:28.280 --> 0:23:32.040 lawsuits and scandaled propagated heavily. Amongst the things that came 0:23:32.080 --> 0:23:35.159 out during both during and after Reed's administration was that 0:23:35.200 --> 0:23:38.520 Reid made nearly nine hundred thousand dollars in illegal bonus 0:23:38.520 --> 0:23:41.200 payments to staff, had a bribery scandal in his office 0:23:41.200 --> 0:23:44.720 that resulted in an FBI investigation, and ensured that airport 0:23:44.760 --> 0:23:49.400 contracts went to his friends and associates based a legalist, 0:23:50.000 --> 0:23:53.440 a legalist vator and to make matters worse for Reid, 0:23:53.520 --> 0:23:56.400 a month after he announced his candid seat, the AJAC 0:23:56.600 --> 0:24:00.840 release that it believed Reid was under investigation for allegations 0:24:00.840 --> 0:24:03.840 of wire fraud for quote using campaign funds to make 0:24:03.880 --> 0:24:07.360 purchases of jewelry, resort travel, lingerie, and furniture. 0:24:07.440 --> 0:24:09.639 I mean that would make sense considering everything else you 0:24:09.760 --> 0:24:12.240 just said. That's not really surprising. 0:24:14.000 --> 0:24:16.520 Then on the other side was Fleesha Moore, who accurately 0:24:16.600 --> 0:24:19.240 and not was seen by opponents as the face of 0:24:19.320 --> 0:24:23.000 COPSDY after Joyce Shepherd, who introduced the legislation authorizing the 0:24:23.080 --> 0:24:26.600 lease for COPSDY and lost her seat on council for 0:24:26.640 --> 0:24:29.800 that reason. While never forced to do so since city 0:24:29.800 --> 0:24:32.720 council presidents only vote in tiebreakers, More did say that 0:24:32.760 --> 0:24:37.720 she would vote in favor of Copsidity if it was needed. Then, 0:24:37.840 --> 0:24:41.000 a week before the election, Felicia Moore's campaign Instagram account 0:24:41.000 --> 0:24:44.760 posted a video with Lee Clevinger, a white Republican donor 0:24:44.800 --> 0:24:48.639 and supporter of Moore's campaign. Clevinger can be heard saying 0:24:48.920 --> 0:24:52.639 all of Atlanta mayor since nineteen seventy nine were quote 0:24:52.800 --> 0:24:57.320 not interested in anything except lining their own pockets. I 0:24:57.359 --> 0:25:00.399 should know. I feel like this could give me some 0:25:00.520 --> 0:25:04.679 uh since nineteen seventy four, a black person has been 0:25:04.720 --> 0:25:05.720 there every single time. 0:25:05.800 --> 0:25:06.000 Yeah. 0:25:06.040 --> 0:25:08.399 That Yeah, that's that's what I was thinking. Yeah, So 0:25:08.560 --> 0:25:11.920 that sounds like he's just didn't go racist over so well. 0:25:12.000 --> 0:25:12.960 Yeah. 0:25:13.119 --> 0:25:16.200 More removed the post and return the campaign contribution from 0:25:16.280 --> 0:25:19.480 Clevelander and said later, quote, it was an unfortunate statement 0:25:19.560 --> 0:25:22.040 by that constituent, and I should have corrected him or 0:25:22.119 --> 0:25:22.680 walked away. 0:25:22.920 --> 0:25:26.680 Unfortunate statement not just like fortunate if someone saying something 0:25:26.680 --> 0:25:30.320 incredibly racist. So this was the setting that led to 0:25:30.359 --> 0:25:34.000 election night that Tuesday. To everyone's surprise, Dickens eked out 0:25:34.000 --> 0:25:37.840 a second place victory above Read with just under six 0:25:37.960 --> 0:25:41.000 hundred votes for a total of twenty two thousand, one 0:25:41.080 --> 0:25:43.399 hundred and fifty three votes for Dickens. More had a 0:25:43.480 --> 0:25:45.960 much better showing with thirty nine two hundred and two. 0:25:45.960 --> 0:25:48.280 But neither of them was over fifty, but neither of 0:25:48.320 --> 0:25:51.000 them broke the fifty percent, so we went to a runoff. 0:25:51.680 --> 0:25:55.440 So during the runoff, More really courted conservative Buckhead. 0:25:55.280 --> 0:25:59.840 And Buckheads like the northern more conservative like not suburb, 0:25:59.840 --> 0:26:01.600 but neighborhood of Atlanta, neighborhood. 0:26:01.640 --> 0:26:03.760 It's the one that wanted to turn it into its 0:26:03.800 --> 0:26:04.320 own city. 0:26:04.240 --> 0:26:06.600 Yes, which wanted to do to the kids succession, which 0:26:06.640 --> 0:26:08.639 is built on a whole bunch of legacies of red 0:26:08.720 --> 0:26:10.120 landing in segregation and blah blah blah. 0:26:10.119 --> 0:26:13.520 Oh we'll talk about that. Okay. 0:26:13.560 --> 0:26:17.480 So More also earned the endorsement of Reed, the. 0:26:17.440 --> 0:26:18.560 Guy who just said the racist thing. 0:26:18.640 --> 0:26:22.800 Guy who know, the former mayor who lost to Dickens 0:26:22.800 --> 0:26:24.600 for second place by about six hundred votes. 0:26:24.640 --> 0:26:26.959 Okay, So I'm trying to keep all these names straight 0:26:27.000 --> 0:26:29.800 here because there's a lot a lot of names coming 0:26:29.800 --> 0:26:30.640 into my head now. 0:26:31.760 --> 0:26:34.399 In a situation that led many progressives in Advantage to 0:26:34.400 --> 0:26:36.400 look at the guy who, well, he voted for copstate, 0:26:36.440 --> 0:26:38.600 he still supported closing the jail, was willing to cut 0:26:38.640 --> 0:26:41.080 seventy three million dollars from APD, and had a been 0:26:41.240 --> 0:26:45.320 a pretty consistent advocate for affordable housing on cancel on council. 0:26:45.440 --> 0:26:48.959 So it was between More and that guy. Yeah, so 0:26:49.280 --> 0:26:54.240 Progressives made a decision and went for Dickens in the runoff. 0:26:54.240 --> 0:26:57.320 Dickens won by a landside with sixty three percent of 0:26:57.320 --> 0:27:02.639 the votes ok so and fifty five votes. More actually 0:27:02.720 --> 0:27:06.920 lost thirteen thousand votes from her general election total. Interesting, 0:27:07.320 --> 0:27:11.480 Thus Mayor Andre Dickens becomes our next leader. Turnout for 0:27:11.520 --> 0:27:13.480 the runoff was in line with what we saw four 0:27:13.520 --> 0:27:16.520 years earlier when Keisha lance Bottom faced off against Garrison's 0:27:16.520 --> 0:27:18.040 candidate of choice, Mary Norwood. 0:27:18.080 --> 0:27:22.000 Get wait, don't put what do you mean. 0:27:23.280 --> 0:27:27.119 If she runs for Merrigan right now? I misunderstood everything 0:27:27.119 --> 0:27:27.679 that has happened. 0:27:27.760 --> 0:27:32.679 She's a scary woman. I'm not gonna so the Norway. 0:27:32.720 --> 0:27:35.960 The Bottoms run off only had four thousand more voters 0:27:35.960 --> 0:27:37.600 than we did in twenty twenty one's run off. 0:27:37.720 --> 0:27:40.560 So that was the twenty seventeen election. Twenty eighteen elections 0:27:40.600 --> 0:27:46.359 got okay, No, the Mayor Norwood, that was the twenty 0:27:46.880 --> 0:27:49.960 Bottoms one. I'm gonna act like I know Atlanta history 0:27:50.600 --> 0:27:53.080 at us correct you on some of this Atlanta history 0:27:53.119 --> 0:27:56.600 here as I feign ignorance to have you explained concepts 0:27:56.640 --> 0:27:58.840 for the audience, making me sound more ignorant than I am, 0:27:59.359 --> 0:28:00.919 but actually then explained to you and. 0:28:01.200 --> 0:28:05.560 I continue, Sorry, we should say that twenty seventeen runoff 0:28:05.640 --> 0:28:07.959 was actually much more evenly matched. Bottoms only one by 0:28:08.000 --> 0:28:08.800 eight hundred votes. 0:28:08.920 --> 0:28:11.280 So would that and that's scary. Yeah, that's scary because 0:28:11.280 --> 0:28:13.280 Mary Norwood cannot be the mayor. 0:28:13.880 --> 0:28:18.640 So Dickens. It's Dickens has said that he won with 0:28:18.880 --> 0:28:21.280 you know, consent to govern, and it's not really stretching 0:28:21.359 --> 0:28:23.600 it when he says that Atlanta has supported him in 0:28:23.640 --> 0:28:27.360 this particular election. Yeah, this particular opponent, we largely did. 0:28:27.560 --> 0:28:27.879 Sure. 0:28:28.040 --> 0:28:30.600 In the interim period, Dickens does the usual things. He 0:28:30.640 --> 0:28:34.200 appoints a transition seam. This included your usual cast of characters, 0:28:34.240 --> 0:28:37.959 but it is also worth noting that it included Dave Wilkinson, 0:28:38.120 --> 0:28:41.080 president and CEO of the ADVANTA Police Found Police. 0:28:42.080 --> 0:28:44.400 I've heard of them, the Atlanta Police Foundation. That's like 0:28:44.440 --> 0:28:46.600 a it's like a it's like a it's like a 0:28:46.680 --> 0:28:48.080 charity for police or something. 0:28:48.160 --> 0:28:48.320 Right. 0:28:48.400 --> 0:28:51.080 Yeah, it's a nonprofit, you know, your standard nonprofit. Okay, 0:28:51.200 --> 0:28:53.920 they do cool thing tax deductible tax Yet you can 0:28:54.000 --> 0:28:57.080 donate to them tax deductibly just like they. 0:28:56.760 --> 0:28:59.000 Might advertise, just like the stream or does today. 0:29:00.800 --> 0:29:05.520 That's the second destiny of reference as many episodes. So 0:29:05.600 --> 0:29:07.560 as soon as Dickens is sworn in, he faces the 0:29:07.600 --> 0:29:11.280 Buckhead secession crisis. And you know, we explained a little 0:29:11.280 --> 0:29:14.520 bit earlier what Bucket is, but Atlanta is a very 0:29:14.600 --> 0:29:18.240 large metropolitan area, and much of the Fulton County itself 0:29:18.320 --> 0:29:21.360 was at one point part of unincorporated Atlanta, and then 0:29:21.400 --> 0:29:23.960 in two thousand and five, an unincorporated area just to 0:29:23.960 --> 0:29:26.400 the north of Buckhead called Sandy Springs was the first 0:29:26.440 --> 0:29:29.440 to become its own city. The initial breakaway cities that 0:29:29.520 --> 0:29:33.520 happened after that were predominantly white, and racism played a 0:29:33.560 --> 0:29:36.080 heavy role in their formation, But starting in twenty sixteen, 0:29:36.760 --> 0:29:40.120 newly formed black majority cities also started cropping up around 0:29:40.160 --> 0:29:43.240 the metro area, like the city of South Bolton and Stonecrest. 0:29:44.440 --> 0:29:45.480 So Buckhead wanted to. 0:29:45.400 --> 0:29:47.280 Do the same thing. They wanted to become their own city. 0:29:47.400 --> 0:29:52.680 And by no means was that like popular sentiment in Buckhead. 0:29:53.120 --> 0:29:58.280 But it's more complicated because the city hood drives were 0:29:58.360 --> 0:30:01.320 not like part of incorporated Atlanta the previous ones. Buckett 0:30:01.520 --> 0:30:04.959 is Incorporated Atlanta is Atlanta. It's part of the Atlanta 0:30:05.000 --> 0:30:07.800 Public School system. It's also an APD zone. It has 0:30:07.840 --> 0:30:10.080 its own parks, roadways, and water system that are all 0:30:10.120 --> 0:30:11.400 like City of Atlantic property. 0:30:11.520 --> 0:30:11.720 Yep. 0:30:12.280 --> 0:30:15.440 So to have the best chance of actually seceding, Buckhead 0:30:15.480 --> 0:30:18.280 needs a state congressional vote. Otherwise it would require a 0:30:18.320 --> 0:30:21.840 city wide vote, which it would buy with people. Yeah yeah, 0:30:21.880 --> 0:30:24.400 So in twenty twenty two, it found that Bucket secession 0:30:24.440 --> 0:30:27.120 bill started working its way through the legislature. The bill 0:30:27.200 --> 0:30:29.920 didn't make it very far this first time around. It 0:30:29.960 --> 0:30:32.400 dies on February eleventh, so just a couple of weeks 0:30:32.440 --> 0:30:35.520 into the session. But in order to kill it, Dickens 0:30:35.600 --> 0:30:38.280 reached out to Governor Kemp and other Republican leaders and 0:30:38.320 --> 0:30:41.360 developed a working relationship. Early on in his term as mayor, 0:30:43.000 --> 0:30:47.720 Dickens also kind of to quell this Buckhead secession played 0:30:47.760 --> 0:30:51.239 into the race of crime narrative that Bucket secessionists were 0:30:51.280 --> 0:30:55.320 claiming was the reason that they wanted to seceed. Dickens, 0:30:55.320 --> 0:30:58.520 in partnership with local law enforcement agencies and the Atlanta 0:30:58.520 --> 0:31:02.400 Police Foundation, created the Pete Offender Tracking Unit. They claimed 0:31:02.520 --> 0:31:04.800 most of the crime problem in Atlanta comes from repeat 0:31:04.800 --> 0:31:08.600 offenders and by sharing information about so called criminals between agencies, 0:31:08.640 --> 0:31:11.920 crime would drop. Of course, this is very problematic from 0:31:11.920 --> 0:31:15.240 an abolitionist perspective. When someone enters the criminal legal system, 0:31:15.560 --> 0:31:18.320 there is a criminal right. It haunts you. The task 0:31:18.360 --> 0:31:21.560 force only serves to reinforce that. And in response to 0:31:21.600 --> 0:31:23.760 the formation of the units, Southern Center for Human Rights 0:31:23.840 --> 0:31:26.720 said quote, If APD is planning to double down on 0:31:27.120 --> 0:31:30.760 the very strategies that they themselves admitted do not work 0:31:30.840 --> 0:31:33.840 in pursuit of a solution that keeps people behind bars, 0:31:34.000 --> 0:31:37.280 the effort is doomed to fail. You know else is 0:31:37.280 --> 0:31:37.920 doomed to fail. 0:31:39.880 --> 0:31:43.480 Our audience is actually buying these products that are advertising 0:31:43.520 --> 0:31:46.720 on our show for some reason, probably, but who knows. 0:31:46.800 --> 0:31:49.080 I've I've heard, I've heard the I've heard the blue apron. 0:31:49.160 --> 0:31:51.480 The cooking boxes are really convenient if you live an 0:31:51.800 --> 0:31:54.920 active and busy lifestyle. Like Matt from from the Atlantic 0:31:54.920 --> 0:31:56.440 Community Breast Collective. 0:31:56.320 --> 0:31:59.400 I actually use Hello Fresh Okay good, because I think 0:31:59.400 --> 0:31:59.640 they're the. 0:31:59.640 --> 0:32:01.200 Ones that I she were advertising on our show. So 0:32:01.200 --> 0:32:03.240 thank you, thank you for that great, great work. You 0:32:03.560 --> 0:32:06.720 already got it all right. We are back. 0:32:07.280 --> 0:32:09.760 All right, So kicking back in with the buckhead session movement. 0:32:10.200 --> 0:32:13.080 In order to mollify Buckhead, there was also an opening 0:32:13.080 --> 0:32:16.680 of a police precinct in Zone two, in which Buckhead sits. 0:32:16.760 --> 0:32:19.480 This is the third precinct in Buckhead, which is made 0:32:19.520 --> 0:32:21.480 up of just twenty eight square miles. 0:32:21.680 --> 0:32:24.120 That's wild because like Portland only has like three or 0:32:24.160 --> 0:32:25.600 four precincts in total. 0:32:26.840 --> 0:32:27.560 Yeah, so we have six. 0:32:27.840 --> 0:32:30.600 Jortland has like more people in like Portland proper than 0:32:30.640 --> 0:32:31.240 like Atlanta. 0:32:31.280 --> 0:32:34.120 Does I think our territory is more expansive, Yeah, than 0:32:35.040 --> 0:32:38.920 like first population wise, there's actually more people in Portland proper. 0:32:39.720 --> 0:32:40.640 Just pretty funny. 0:32:40.920 --> 0:32:44.200 I should say that the third precinct in Zone two 0:32:44.320 --> 0:32:48.000 was planned before Dickens took office, but he made sure 0:32:48.000 --> 0:32:49.840 to talk about it a lot earlier. Yeah I bet 0:32:49.840 --> 0:32:53.120 I bet so. And then, in what would fit perfectly 0:32:53.160 --> 0:32:55.239 as a scene in The Wire, Dickens spent both this 0:32:55.360 --> 0:32:57.680 year and last year talking about how crime and Buckhead 0:32:57.760 --> 0:33:00.400 dropped more in both years than any other zones. 0:33:00.440 --> 0:33:01.080 What's the Wire? 0:33:01.960 --> 0:33:04.560 But well there's a podcast about the Wire? 0:33:04.720 --> 0:33:07.320 Oh really a podcast? Yes, huh? 0:33:07.440 --> 0:33:09.800 I forget the name of What's the Wire. It's a 0:33:09.840 --> 0:33:12.400 it's a TV show about Oh police? 0:33:12.760 --> 0:33:14.840 Is is this one of like those like a millennial show. 0:33:14.920 --> 0:33:15.560 We're doing a bit. 0:33:16.320 --> 0:33:19.760 Is this like one of those millennial shows? It did 0:33:19.800 --> 0:33:22.120 come out in the early so this is this is 0:33:22.120 --> 0:33:23.400 like succession for old people. 0:33:23.600 --> 0:33:26.720 Got a secession for old people? Yes, I highly recommend 0:33:26.720 --> 0:33:28.920 watching it and check out the podcast that I can't 0:33:28.920 --> 0:33:29.560 remember the name of. 0:33:29.720 --> 0:33:33.480 Okay, yeah, plug someone else's podcast. Great, great job. 0:33:34.320 --> 0:33:37.320 As the Buckhead secession issue wound down, a Southeast Atlanta 0:33:37.360 --> 0:33:40.280 apartment complex started to draw increasing attention from the press 0:33:40.360 --> 0:33:42.959 due to rampant issues in the complex a lack of 0:33:42.960 --> 0:33:46.480 care by the owners. This so this massive apartment complex 0:33:46.520 --> 0:33:50.320 operator called Millennia. The company had a reputation across the 0:33:50.360 --> 0:33:54.080 country is terrible and it is deservedly so. At Forest Cove, 0:33:54.720 --> 0:33:57.160 the complex was unfit for human habitation. 0:33:57.400 --> 0:33:58.640 Oh really Uh? 0:33:58.760 --> 0:34:01.360 And we have to acknowledge that dickens here hadden out 0:34:01.400 --> 0:34:03.760 just to blame Millennia. But in February he told the 0:34:03.760 --> 0:34:07.080 approximately seven hundred residents that the city would be moving 0:34:07.120 --> 0:34:09.560 them to safer housing while the complex was either fixed 0:34:09.640 --> 0:34:13.960 or rebuilt. The rollout of this wasn't perfect. On April 0:34:14.040 --> 0:34:17.040 thirteenth of this year, Sean Keenan, a local reporter. 0:34:17.680 --> 0:34:20.480 Really of the friend of the show, New York Times 0:34:20.520 --> 0:34:22.440 repporter Sean Keenan makes another appearance. 0:34:22.920 --> 0:34:25.680 So Keenan released a new story eight of this year 0:34:25.719 --> 0:34:29.520 April thirteen, twenty twenty three, showing that the first that 0:34:29.680 --> 0:34:33.040 a quarter of Forest Cove residents were relocated to complexes 0:34:33.080 --> 0:34:38.000 identified as dangerous dwellings on the ajac's residential watchdoglyphs. 0:34:38.040 --> 0:34:38.880 That's pretty funny. 0:34:39.040 --> 0:34:41.560 So I have learned a little bit about Atlanta's like 0:34:41.600 --> 0:34:45.560 rental situation here, and it seems like it kind of 0:34:45.600 --> 0:34:48.239 sucks to be a renter in Georgia. It seems like 0:34:48.239 --> 0:34:50.080 you have almost no rights, no protection. 0:34:50.280 --> 0:34:53.399 I didn't have air conditioning for a little while, and 0:34:53.560 --> 0:34:56.640 it turns out that you are not guaranteed air conditioning 0:34:57.400 --> 0:34:58.400 in any real. 0:34:58.640 --> 0:35:00.640 Which is hard being like in Atlanta. Like I never 0:35:00.760 --> 0:35:03.920 I never had a c in Portland. But that's that's Portland. 0:35:03.960 --> 0:35:06.080 It's not We're not dealing with the Atlanta humidity in 0:35:06.120 --> 0:35:07.120 Atlanta heat. 0:35:07.040 --> 0:35:09.480 No, it's it's pretty miserable. Thankfully, my air conditioning did 0:35:09.560 --> 0:35:12.640 get fixed eventually, but yeah, there's no recourse for things 0:35:12.680 --> 0:35:19.719 like that. So until that report by Keenan, it it 0:35:19.760 --> 0:35:22.160 appeared that the city was doing diligent work taking care 0:35:22.160 --> 0:35:25.160 of displaced residents and ensuring that they retained access to 0:35:25.200 --> 0:35:28.279 care and services with as little disruption as possible, and 0:35:29.120 --> 0:35:31.279 by and large that that happened, but you know, for 0:35:31.360 --> 0:35:34.040 a quarter of residents, not so much. At this point, 0:35:34.040 --> 0:35:36.680 more questions are cropping up, so the story is likely 0:35:36.719 --> 0:35:39.840 going to continue to develop, but we don't really know 0:35:39.880 --> 0:35:41.839 where the point going to go because this is like 0:35:41.920 --> 0:35:42.520 current events. 0:35:42.600 --> 0:35:42.920 Yeah. 0:35:43.000 --> 0:35:45.239 Yeah, So another force cove issue that will probably come 0:35:45.320 --> 0:35:47.600 up later in Diggins's term was that he made a 0:35:47.600 --> 0:35:50.200 promise to residence that they'll be able to return to 0:35:50.239 --> 0:35:53.920 the apartment complex eventually. But Millennia was denied hot assistance 0:35:54.000 --> 0:35:56.160 to fix the property, and it's unlikely that they'll do 0:35:56.280 --> 0:35:58.120 so on their own, so the fate of the complex 0:35:58.280 --> 0:36:01.640 is pretty up in the air. The city does own 0:36:01.800 --> 0:36:05.160 approximately eighty acres in the neighborhood, which could and should 0:36:05.239 --> 0:36:08.120 go to building low income housing, but it's prime real 0:36:08.239 --> 0:36:12.160 estate for further gentrification. So yeah, we'll see how that 0:36:12.200 --> 0:36:12.719 plays out. 0:36:12.800 --> 0:36:12.840 No. 0:36:12.920 --> 0:36:15.520 One of the first things like that I noticed when 0:36:15.520 --> 0:36:18.360 I was visiting Atlanta like last year was that like 0:36:18.400 --> 0:36:20.200 all of like most of the Section eight housing has 0:36:20.239 --> 0:36:22.719 been the converted into like luxury condos or like new 0:36:23.440 --> 0:36:28.279 like like a like a five story apartment complexes, and no, 0:36:28.480 --> 0:36:32.279 like the speed of the gentrification was was kind of 0:36:32.320 --> 0:36:35.600 surprising to me coming coming from Portland. Like there's still 0:36:35.960 --> 0:36:39.680 gentrification in Portland, absolutely, but did the expansiveness of it 0:36:39.719 --> 0:36:42.359 here and the speed of which it's accelerating was was 0:36:42.400 --> 0:36:43.080 surprising to me. 0:36:43.160 --> 0:36:46.000 Yeah, and we're not building like low income housing complexes. 0:36:46.040 --> 0:36:48.920 But what's happening here is that they're they're adding a 0:36:48.960 --> 0:36:53.960 certain percentage of new like if you're building a massive complex, 0:36:54.080 --> 0:36:58.680 a certain percentage of your off like your dwellings have 0:36:58.760 --> 0:37:01.520 to go at at a certain point of the average 0:37:01.520 --> 0:37:05.360 monthly income. Yeah, but that's not really addressing this like 0:37:05.520 --> 0:37:07.880 large scale issue that is going because you still. 0:37:07.719 --> 0:37:09.880 Have hundreds of them that it costs like three thousand 0:37:09.960 --> 0:37:12.600 dollars and you have like a dozen that are low income, 0:37:12.640 --> 0:37:15.040 and you just you do the barest amounts to script 0:37:15.080 --> 0:37:17.520 by while still filling up most of the available real 0:37:17.640 --> 0:37:19.360 estate with very expensive apartments. 0:37:19.360 --> 0:37:21.399 And I should plug here. There is a fantastic book 0:37:21.480 --> 0:37:25.200 called Red Hot City by GSU professor named Dan Immerglock. 0:37:25.239 --> 0:37:28.360 If you want to learn more about gentrification in Atlanta. 0:37:28.440 --> 0:37:33.160 It's great, Yeah, absolutely and set vital reading. So towards 0:37:33.239 --> 0:37:35.360 the end of Dickens's first one hundred days in office, 0:37:35.640 --> 0:37:38.880 APD Chief Rodney Bryant announced that he was going to retire. 0:37:39.400 --> 0:37:42.600 Bryant was not very well liked by city leadership. Felicia 0:37:42.600 --> 0:37:44.480 Moore had made a campaign promise to get rid of 0:37:44.480 --> 0:37:46.640 Bryant on her first day in office, but Dickens said 0:37:46.640 --> 0:37:49.120 he'd give him one hundred days to improve public safety 0:37:49.160 --> 0:37:51.480 and kind of see where things were at before firing him. 0:37:51.480 --> 0:37:53.320 And what happened after those one hundred days. 0:37:53.840 --> 0:37:57.400 Bryant stepped down and Dickens tapped then Deputy Chief Darren 0:37:57.440 --> 0:37:58.840 Sheerbaum as interim. 0:37:58.920 --> 0:38:00.719 Replace heard of this guy before. 0:38:00.800 --> 0:38:03.080 This is the guy who made that weird confession about 0:38:03.080 --> 0:38:05.239 having sex in the woods with all those police officers. 0:38:05.400 --> 0:38:08.600 I've heard that in a podcast recently. That's so crazy. 0:38:09.680 --> 0:38:12.960 Cherbom, who may or may not have said those things. 0:38:12.960 --> 0:38:16.400 His prior role was overseeing the cop city development, and 0:38:16.480 --> 0:38:18.759 he was also pretty well liked by APD officers, so 0:38:18.880 --> 0:38:21.960 Dicks officially hired him in October of twenty twenty two. 0:38:22.040 --> 0:38:24.399 But if you're a leftist or even just against cop City. 0:38:24.440 --> 0:38:26.759 This is actually like kind of a lost Cheerbomb is 0:38:26.800 --> 0:38:29.920 incredibly pr savvy, as you saw in that City Council meeting, 0:38:29.960 --> 0:38:32.359 and he does pretty well when he's talking to them. 0:38:32.400 --> 0:38:34.200 No, when I was first doing stuff on cop C, 0:38:34.440 --> 0:38:36.759 I remember when he was just like the spokesperson for 0:38:36.920 --> 0:38:38.960 he wasn't actually like the chief yet. 0:38:39.200 --> 0:38:41.799 And then he became the chief in. 0:38:41.920 --> 0:38:46.440 Like last fall, and they've gotten better at their propaganda 0:38:46.440 --> 0:38:47.640 since then, a lot better. 0:38:47.719 --> 0:38:49.319 Yeah, and you know I watched this like every week. 0:38:49.360 --> 0:38:50.920 He does a pretty good job. 0:38:51.000 --> 0:38:51.480 Yeah. 0:38:51.520 --> 0:38:54.400 This brings us to budget season twenty twenty two. In April, 0:38:54.440 --> 0:38:56.600 Dickens tells the AGC that he wants to hire two 0:38:56.680 --> 0:38:59.400 hundred and fifty APD officers a year for three years, 0:38:59.440 --> 0:39:01.640 hoping that the total of seven hundred and fifty new 0:39:01.680 --> 0:39:04.480 hires will net a four hundred and fifty increase in 0:39:04.560 --> 0:39:05.720 officers for the department. 0:39:05.760 --> 0:39:08.319 Okay, so hiring a lot some of them might nutrition rate, 0:39:08.400 --> 0:39:10.640 other people might not stay on, but you're trying to 0:39:10.760 --> 0:39:13.400 like net to get another like four hundred or so officers. 0:39:13.520 --> 0:39:13.759 Yep. 0:39:14.520 --> 0:39:17.560 So, Dickens also approved four thousand dollars bonuses for APD 0:39:18.040 --> 0:39:20.799 paid using American Rescue Plan Act money. 0:39:20.719 --> 0:39:22.840 And great useful. 0:39:23.560 --> 0:39:26.480 Initially, in June, Dickens promised police a raise of three 0:39:26.480 --> 0:39:29.760 and a half percent, but in November it became apparent 0:39:29.760 --> 0:39:31.960 that the city would have a budget surplus, so Dickens 0:39:31.960 --> 0:39:34.880 and council raised that to nine percent, bringing APD to 0:39:34.960 --> 0:39:37.360 a total of a twenty seven percent raise over the 0:39:37.360 --> 0:39:38.560 course of three years. 0:39:38.680 --> 0:39:41.480 Funny how much money they're just getting pumped this past 0:39:41.520 --> 0:39:42.040 ten years. 0:39:42.120 --> 0:39:44.239 And I don't know what happens like three years ago, 0:39:44.440 --> 0:39:46.600 but it seems like something shouldn't. 0:39:46.880 --> 0:39:47.000 No. 0:39:47.040 --> 0:39:49.560 I mean, like you were talking about how like how 0:39:50.080 --> 0:39:53.759 Dickens was like previously working to get like like a 0:39:53.800 --> 0:39:57.399 seventy million reduction in police budget. You know, probably probably 0:39:57.719 --> 0:39:59.680 in some ways, probably just like for pr ras because 0:39:59.719 --> 0:40:02.160 during twenty that was the popular thing to do. And 0:40:02.200 --> 0:40:05.319 now he's just like funneling millions and millions dollars towards 0:40:05.320 --> 0:40:10.400 the police Foundation, towards individual officers, towards raises, bonuses, you know, 0:40:10.840 --> 0:40:12.080 standard mayor stuff. 0:40:12.200 --> 0:40:14.359 Oh and we're not done. In November, it was an 0:40:14.360 --> 0:40:18.600 early Christmas for APD. Dickens also debuted forty new SCAD 0:40:18.680 --> 0:40:20.680 and so SCAD is the Savannah College of Art, and 0:40:20.719 --> 0:40:22.759 design the Arts College. 0:40:22.520 --> 0:40:23.760 The big Art college in Georgia. 0:40:23.840 --> 0:40:27.920 Yeah, so they designed these police Ford Explorer vehicles for 0:40:28.000 --> 0:40:29.879 an officer take home program. 0:40:30.000 --> 0:40:30.799 Via look like shit. 0:40:31.200 --> 0:40:34.879 Each vehicle cost sixty thousand dollars. So the total price 0:40:34.960 --> 0:40:37.319 tag of this was two point four million dollars to 0:40:37.760 --> 0:40:39.480 improve officer morale. 0:40:40.120 --> 0:40:42.400 Oh yeah, let's let's get them, get them, you know, 0:40:42.760 --> 0:40:45.040 two million dollars with the cars, just to make them happy. 0:40:45.880 --> 0:40:46.040 Uh. 0:40:46.120 --> 0:40:49.280 Seventy additional takeo vehicles are in the pipeline once equipment 0:40:49.360 --> 0:40:52.320 becomes available to out cool. So yeah, this this program 0:40:52.440 --> 0:40:53.520 is just continuing to grow. 0:40:53.680 --> 0:40:58.439 Fuck whatever scad designer was paid to fucking design those 0:40:58.600 --> 0:40:59.360 shitty cars. 0:40:59.600 --> 0:41:01.480 So one of the things that was missing during the 0:41:01.520 --> 0:41:04.719 budget season back back in spring was the very thing 0:41:04.719 --> 0:41:08.680 that helped Dickens solidifie his image as a Progressive Council member, 0:41:08.800 --> 0:41:13.280 affordable housing. In his initial budget, Dickens put no increase 0:41:13.360 --> 0:41:16.200 in affordable housing for his alleged you had. 0:41:16.000 --> 0:41:18.680 A budget surplus, and you're like, no, let's give them 0:41:18.719 --> 0:41:20.560 a give all the money to the police who were 0:41:20.560 --> 0:41:22.800 already getting a ninety million dollar training facility. 0:41:22.880 --> 0:41:24.000 Let's give even more money. 0:41:24.360 --> 0:41:27.480 Sure, great, So Dan Immergluckt, the GSU professor I just 0:41:27.520 --> 0:41:30.840 mentioned he was. He's an affordable housing advocate and he 0:41:31.000 --> 0:41:34.400 was part of Dickens's transition team. And he told Capital 0:41:34.400 --> 0:41:38.000 B after the prospective budget was released, quote, for this 0:41:38.080 --> 0:41:40.560 to be his first budget to make a step backwards 0:41:40.760 --> 0:41:45.600 is extremely disappointing. And that's basically how all the progressives felt. Yeah, 0:41:45.640 --> 0:41:49.279 so Dickens did cave to housing advocate pressure and he 0:41:49.400 --> 0:41:52.480 added an additional seven million dollars in the affordable housing 0:41:52.520 --> 0:41:54.680 budget before the budget. 0:41:54.400 --> 0:41:56.680 Was passed in June. Cool cool, cool. 0:41:57.040 --> 0:42:00.000 Remember back in twenty nineteen and twenty twenty one, everyone 0:42:00.440 --> 0:42:02.520 was an agreement that the jail was going to close. 0:42:03.000 --> 0:42:05.200 Yeah, the the A, they were going to convert it 0:42:05.640 --> 0:42:06.319 to that other thing. 0:42:06.320 --> 0:42:07.560 That it was going to be a center for Diversion 0:42:07.600 --> 0:42:09.640 in Equity. Yeah, it was going to be great, and 0:42:09.640 --> 0:42:11.239 by this point it actually had a name, the John 0:42:11.320 --> 0:42:12.960 Lewis Center for Diversion in Equity. 0:42:13.200 --> 0:42:13.480 Great. 0:42:14.840 --> 0:42:17.680 But in June of twenty twenty two, city Council voted 0:42:17.719 --> 0:42:21.200 down legislation authorizing the mayor to close the jail. Then 0:42:21.360 --> 0:42:24.840 plans came out in early August that instead of closing ACDC, 0:42:25.040 --> 0:42:27.680 Fulton County in Atlanta were in talks to rent seven 0:42:27.760 --> 0:42:31.280 hundred beds from the facility to Fulton County to address 0:42:31.320 --> 0:42:35.240 the overcrowding problem at Rice Street, Fulton County's main jail. 0:42:35.719 --> 0:42:37.520 Maybe they should just keep less people in jail. 0:42:38.320 --> 0:42:41.480 Activists warned that the lease would not alleviate these issues 0:42:41.520 --> 0:42:44.760 and that City Council needed to instead focus on decarceration. 0:42:44.960 --> 0:42:47.200 And then there was an acl new report that came 0:42:47.239 --> 0:42:50.120 out later in the year that found forty five percent 0:42:50.200 --> 0:42:53.719 of the overall jail population in Fulden County is unindicted. 0:42:54.280 --> 0:42:56.960 Yeah, there's holding people that actually have not been indicted. 0:42:57.000 --> 0:42:57.759 Ferdy crime. Great. 0:42:58.000 --> 0:43:00.799 Remember it was Dickens who introduced the legend to find 0:43:00.840 --> 0:43:03.719 a way to repurpose this jail, he said in a 0:43:03.760 --> 0:43:08.000 statement when the lease to Fulton County was coming up. Quote, 0:43:08.239 --> 0:43:11.880 as I've continually supported since my time on Atlanta City Council, 0:43:11.920 --> 0:43:15.480 I remain committed to fully repurposing the ACDC facility for 0:43:15.600 --> 0:43:19.120 non incarceration purposes. But we are also confronted by a 0:43:19.160 --> 0:43:22.680 real and immediate crisis of overcrowding at the Fulton County Jail. 0:43:23.120 --> 0:43:26.560 Many of these detainees are Atlanta residents. And our conscience 0:43:26.600 --> 0:43:29.760 calls us to act. This is a temporary lease agreement 0:43:29.800 --> 0:43:31.560 and will allow the City of Atlanta to play a 0:43:31.680 --> 0:43:35.400 role in alleviating this humanitarian crisis and to provide the 0:43:35.520 --> 0:43:38.600 necessary time for Fulton County to develop and implement a 0:43:38.680 --> 0:43:42.719 long term solution humanitarians, because we always know adding more 0:43:42.719 --> 0:43:48.600 prison beds really reduces the problem. Uh So, the temporary 0:43:48.600 --> 0:43:51.000 solution that we're talking about is a four year agreement, 0:43:51.360 --> 0:43:53.720 and Fulton County is paying the City of Atlanta fifty 0:43:53.760 --> 0:43:56.359 dollars per bed per night, So when the full seven 0:43:56.440 --> 0:43:59.120 hundred beds are taking Atlanta will be making twelve point 0:43:59.360 --> 0:44:01.160 seven million dollars a year. 0:44:01.400 --> 0:44:03.640 Remember when we had to release all those people from 0:44:03.719 --> 0:44:06.560 prison and jail in twenty twenty to overcrowding and then 0:44:06.719 --> 0:44:08.680 violent crime dropped. Isn't that crazy? 0:44:09.239 --> 0:44:10.200 That is crazy. 0:44:11.200 --> 0:44:13.719 So the twelve point seven million dollars sounds like a 0:44:13.760 --> 0:44:16.400 lot of money, But before the lease went into effect, 0:44:16.480 --> 0:44:21.239 acdc's average population was under fifty individuals per night. The 0:44:21.239 --> 0:44:24.360 city's Department of Corrections budget is sixteen point one million 0:44:24.400 --> 0:44:26.520 dollars a year, so the city is still going to 0:44:26.600 --> 0:44:30.040 lose money running this jail. Even with Fulden County paying 0:44:30.880 --> 0:44:32.320 for their. 0:44:32.400 --> 0:44:34.319 Retainties for their share date answer. Yeah. 0:44:34.920 --> 0:44:37.680 Then on April fourteenth of this year, the news came 0:44:37.680 --> 0:44:40.719 out that Lashawan Thompson died in Rice Street Jail, having 0:44:40.800 --> 0:44:45.319 been neglected and ignored by Fulden County deputies. When they 0:44:45.320 --> 0:44:49.160 finally checked on Thompson, they found that he had been 0:44:49.160 --> 0:44:53.520 eaten alive by bugs as he lay dying. And this 0:44:53.640 --> 0:44:56.560 was in September of twenty twenty two, just after Atlanta 0:44:56.800 --> 0:45:00.160 approved this lease. The cell Thompson was in was so 0:45:00.200 --> 0:45:03.240 disgusting that a jail employee refused to enter without putting 0:45:03.239 --> 0:45:04.560 on a hazmat suit first. 0:45:04.680 --> 0:45:06.399 Oh, imagine what it was like to live in there. 0:45:06.440 --> 0:45:07.080 That's crazy. 0:45:07.280 --> 0:45:10.719 And this death isn't the result of overcrowding. Thompson was 0:45:10.800 --> 0:45:13.719 in jail on simple battery charges and being held on 0:45:13.760 --> 0:45:17.839 a twenty five hundred dollars bond. He was also unindicted. 0:45:17.880 --> 0:45:20.040 There was no reason for Thompson to be in jail 0:45:20.040 --> 0:45:22.120 at the time of his death. If he had the money, 0:45:22.200 --> 0:45:23.640 he probably would have been it live today. 0:45:23.680 --> 0:45:25.520 Yeah, it's just blocking up poor people. 0:45:25.920 --> 0:45:27.880 And yeah, so this is the sort of thing that 0:45:27.920 --> 0:45:32.800 Dickenson Council have enabled with this new jail lease. Before 0:45:32.800 --> 0:45:35.239 we get into Dickenson copp City in twenty twenty three, 0:45:35.400 --> 0:45:38.360 we need to talk briefly about some more American Rescue 0:45:38.400 --> 0:45:42.080 Plan Act sheick Henry Dickinson Council pulled off this year. 0:45:42.840 --> 0:45:45.200 At the end of January, Atlanta announced that it was 0:45:45.239 --> 0:45:48.800 returning ten million dollars in ARPA funds earmarked for rental 0:45:48.800 --> 0:45:52.080 assistance that the city never used. What did just use 0:45:52.120 --> 0:45:56.480 informental assistance? So this naturally upset a lot of people. 0:45:56.600 --> 0:46:00.960 Public comment was quite feisty that day. ADVANTA is of 0:46:01.000 --> 0:46:03.680 course increasingly pricing out its legacy residents, as we just 0:46:03.719 --> 0:46:06.560 talked about, and ten million dollars would go a long 0:46:06.640 --> 0:46:11.320 way to helping combat that. And then to add insult 0:46:11.360 --> 0:46:14.680 to injury. A few weeks later, Council passed and Dickens 0:46:14.680 --> 0:46:17.960 signed legislation that gave five hundred thousand dollars in arp 0:46:17.960 --> 0:46:21.640 OF funds to the Atlanta Police Foundation to provide additional 0:46:21.680 --> 0:46:26.560 police and first responder housing. So really reinforcing the city's 0:46:26.560 --> 0:46:28.319 going to take care of police before everyone else. 0:46:28.480 --> 0:46:32.400 Yeah, oh boy. 0:46:31.400 --> 0:46:34.919 So let's move on to how Dickens handled cop City 0:46:35.160 --> 0:46:37.640 since January eighteenth. I think is probably a good place 0:46:37.680 --> 0:46:41.160 to start. The killing of Tortigito by Georgia State Patrol 0:46:41.200 --> 0:46:45.320 officers the day that everything happened, Dickens wished the trooper 0:46:45.360 --> 0:46:48.320 a speedy recovery. I can find nowhere in which Dickens 0:46:48.360 --> 0:46:52.240 made any comment other than it's unfortunate that Tortigito was killed. 0:46:52.920 --> 0:46:56.239 Not surprising. He never accepts any level of responsibility for 0:46:56.360 --> 0:47:00.160 towards death, insisting instead that that responsibility lies with were 0:47:00.239 --> 0:47:02.480 just State Patrol or to Cab County. He refuses to 0:47:02.480 --> 0:47:05.400 acknowledge the fact that the city's insistence on trying to 0:47:05.400 --> 0:47:08.280 build cop City both ensured port and the officer's presence 0:47:08.320 --> 0:47:09.120 in the woods. 0:47:08.800 --> 0:47:10.920 And napd's involvement to the raid. 0:47:11.120 --> 0:47:15.800 Like, yeah, so this moment also kind of changed how 0:47:16.000 --> 0:47:20.200 Dickens approaches cop City. Before he was relatively quiet, but 0:47:20.239 --> 0:47:24.280 he begins this like full court media press after January eighteenth, 0:47:24.360 --> 0:47:26.680 and we don't know the exact details, but it does 0:47:26.719 --> 0:47:29.719 seem like to Cab County, Atlanta officials in APF came 0:47:29.760 --> 0:47:34.880 to an agreement in January to pass this land disturbance permit. 0:47:37.200 --> 0:47:40.560 In February, after a student protest at the Atlanta University 0:47:40.600 --> 0:47:44.800 Center and letters from AUC faculty that opposed construction of 0:47:44.840 --> 0:47:47.840 cop City and expressed solidarity with protesters. Dickens announced that 0:47:47.920 --> 0:47:51.040 he would hold a forum with the president of Morehouse College, 0:47:51.120 --> 0:47:54.240 David A. Thomas, who is a vocal cop City supporter. 0:47:54.760 --> 0:47:57.480 This was a big problem for Dickens as the colleges 0:47:57.520 --> 0:47:59.759 that make up the AEC and we didn't talk about 0:47:59.760 --> 0:48:03.520 which once those were earlier. It's Morehouse, Spellman, Clark University, 0:48:03.600 --> 0:48:06.600 Morehouse College of Medicine. All of them carry with them 0:48:06.640 --> 0:48:09.360 an incredible amount of historical and political power in the 0:48:09.400 --> 0:48:14.040 city of Atlanta, so keeping AUC support is pretty vital 0:48:14.239 --> 0:48:16.920 if you want to continue to run for elections. The 0:48:16.960 --> 0:48:19.760 attendance at the forum was limited to only AUC students 0:48:19.760 --> 0:48:22.719 and faculty, but a stream was duped and broadcast on 0:48:22.760 --> 0:48:26.200 Instagram Live. Unfortunately, I have not been able to find 0:48:26.200 --> 0:48:28.319 a complete copy, but there are definitely highlights that have 0:48:28.400 --> 0:48:32.880 made it out. Overall, Dickens was pretty patronizing and sarcastic 0:48:32.960 --> 0:48:35.680 to students. Several times students called the mayor out for 0:48:35.760 --> 0:48:39.040 his behavior, but he continued to show disdain the rest 0:48:39.080 --> 0:48:41.560 of the night. One student called him out for his 0:48:41.640 --> 0:48:44.839 lack of prior acknowledgment of towards death and Dickens's usual 0:48:44.920 --> 0:48:48.799 sidestep responsibility, again saying that it was unfortunate toward died, 0:48:48.840 --> 0:48:51.319 but insisting he was the wrong person to blame because 0:48:51.320 --> 0:48:53.960 it didn't happen in the city of Atlanta and the 0:48:54.000 --> 0:48:57.799 officer was not from APD. At one point, Dickens went 0:48:57.840 --> 0:48:59.759 on a TI raid after a student called him a 0:48:59.800 --> 0:49:03.040 self out this we do have audio for Hey, let me. 0:49:03.000 --> 0:49:05.560 Just check this, which I ain't never been a sell out. 0:49:06.280 --> 0:49:09.000 You can't, you can't. You got to check. You got 0:49:09.000 --> 0:49:10.640 the wrong resume that you're looking at. 0:49:11.120 --> 0:49:11.920 I know, I know. 0:49:12.000 --> 0:49:14.640 We want to yell and yet shout out things. 0:49:14.760 --> 0:49:15.440 Just be heard. 0:49:15.760 --> 0:49:17.640 You've been heard, You've been heard. 0:49:17.960 --> 0:49:20.399 I guess what you picked the wrong resume to pulling 0:49:20.480 --> 0:49:21.120 on a race car. 0:49:22.160 --> 0:49:25.040 Whatever Dickens was hoping to accomplish that night, he failed. 0:49:25.239 --> 0:49:28.880 Several memes and audio remixes of Dickens's performance went viral 0:49:28.960 --> 0:49:31.600 in the Atlanta Twitter sphere and continue to crop up 0:49:31.600 --> 0:49:33.920 this day, like the I am not a sellout one 0:49:33.920 --> 0:49:35.000 I don't know if you've seen. 0:49:34.800 --> 0:49:40.640 It, is that the I'm still ruined by the by 0:49:40.680 --> 0:49:45.040 the by the doctor Han Good good doctor memes. That 0:49:45.160 --> 0:49:48.680 just reminded me of the I am a surgeon memes. 0:49:48.719 --> 0:49:51.439 So great job, great job. Yeah, great work. 0:49:52.640 --> 0:49:55.160 So Dickens has of course continued to try it or 0:49:55.360 --> 0:49:58.399 to build or manufacture support for Copsody over the next 0:49:58.440 --> 0:50:01.520 two months. In March, she was visiting the neighborhoods around 0:50:01.600 --> 0:50:04.680 cop City to hear feedback from residents, and he of 0:50:04.680 --> 0:50:07.960 course started in the wealthier neighborhoods and he only went 0:50:08.000 --> 0:50:10.719 to the less affluent neighborhood, which, like cop City is 0:50:11.320 --> 0:50:15.200 actually in after a member of the Community Stakeholder Advisory 0:50:15.239 --> 0:50:18.400 Committee called him out for only favoring the wealthy communities. 0:50:18.920 --> 0:50:21.680 Local residents have told ACPC that Dickens skips over the 0:50:21.680 --> 0:50:23.520 houses with DTF signs outfront. 0:50:23.680 --> 0:50:25.000 That makes sense, Yeah, checks out. 0:50:25.040 --> 0:50:28.160 He's done several interviews now on cop City with both 0:50:28.200 --> 0:50:32.279 the AJAC and wab a local public radio station. The 0:50:32.320 --> 0:50:36.440 AGAC interview was particularly interesting because one of the interviewers 0:50:36.480 --> 0:50:38.880 asked Dickens what would happen if cop City ended in 0:50:38.920 --> 0:50:43.320 a cost overrun. Dickens told her that any large overruns 0:50:43.320 --> 0:50:46.440 would be paid for by philanthropic dollars from the foundation. 0:50:47.160 --> 0:50:51.200 He said this out he said this, but a member 0:50:51.280 --> 0:50:55.120 of his cabinet had already confirmed that two APF City 0:50:55.200 --> 0:50:57.279 was willing to pay thirty two million dollars at that point, 0:50:57.360 --> 0:50:59.719 and of course we've now learned that that number is 0:51:00.000 --> 0:51:01.480 sixty seven million dollars. 0:51:03.320 --> 0:51:03.440 Uh. 0:51:04.239 --> 0:51:06.640 Did you follow the City of Atlanta's Twitter account? 0:51:07.239 --> 0:51:07.439 No? 0:51:07.640 --> 0:51:10.200 I don't want to see that shit, but I know 0:51:10.239 --> 0:51:12.320 they have turned it into just a cop city a 0:51:12.360 --> 0:51:13.239 propaganda chancel. 0:51:13.400 --> 0:51:16.640 It's a NonStop propaganda channel, which is like really fun 0:51:16.640 --> 0:51:19.879 to watch because every cop city post is like bombarded 0:51:19.920 --> 0:51:21.560 with negative replies and quot tweets. 0:51:21.560 --> 0:51:23.880 I've seen these posts, I know. I know. 0:51:24.000 --> 0:51:27.040 I've talked about how they launched their own website trying 0:51:27.040 --> 0:51:29.680 to combat all of the top cop city websites. And yeah, 0:51:29.680 --> 0:51:32.919 they've really accelerated their propaganda the past few months. And yeah, 0:51:33.000 --> 0:51:36.160 just turned the actual City of Atlanto account into a 0:51:36.320 --> 0:51:41.399 cop city propaganda uh like platform, which is funny because 0:51:41.440 --> 0:51:43.719 they oft they also will often advocate and say like 0:51:43.880 --> 0:51:45.600 this isn't the City of Atlanta's project, this is the 0:51:45.640 --> 0:51:49.120 APS project, which they'll often like use that use that refrain, 0:51:49.560 --> 0:51:51.759 and yet we have the City of Atlanto account being 0:51:51.760 --> 0:51:55.360 turned into a into a megaphone to promote to this project. 0:51:55.440 --> 0:51:57.960 Yeah, the Atlanta Police Foundation doesn't actually give interviews to 0:51:59.160 --> 0:52:02.040 like news anymore. Yeah, they filtered and everything through the 0:52:02.040 --> 0:52:03.400 City of Atlanta, which. 0:52:04.840 --> 0:52:06.280 Normal charity organization. 0:52:07.040 --> 0:52:09.279 It's completely normal for them never to show up at 0:52:09.280 --> 0:52:12.560 City Council to talk about anything, and to hide from 0:52:12.600 --> 0:52:18.040 the public. It's fine. So meanwhile, Dickens is of course 0:52:18.160 --> 0:52:21.319 like dogged by opposition to cop City at every turn. 0:52:21.800 --> 0:52:24.840 On April thirteenth, three Georgia State University students, with the 0:52:24.880 --> 0:52:28.600 support of this keynote speaker, interrupted a global symposium Studies 0:52:28.920 --> 0:52:33.799 that Dickens was giving opening remarks. Dickens grows increasingly frustrated 0:52:33.840 --> 0:52:36.360 as the disruptors will not leave, and eventually Dickens and 0:52:36.480 --> 0:52:41.040 his retinue like just walk out. On April eleventh, Dickens 0:52:41.120 --> 0:52:43.880 had hired a new senior policy advisor named Karen Rodgers. 0:52:44.680 --> 0:52:48.000 Dickens brought Rogers over from the Atlanta Police Foundation, where 0:52:48.040 --> 0:52:51.840 she'd spent seven years working in community engagement, and he 0:52:51.880 --> 0:52:54.120 brought her on, of course, to advise about cop City. 0:52:54.760 --> 0:52:59.600 On April eighteenth, Decab County Medicical Examiner released the autopsy 0:52:59.600 --> 0:53:02.279 on towards death and that same day, just before the 0:53:02.400 --> 0:53:05.759 article came out that the autopsity was released, Dickins tell 0:53:05.800 --> 0:53:08.840 a press conference on the steps of city Hall. He 0:53:08.920 --> 0:53:11.839 was surrounded by a group of nearly one hundred all 0:53:11.920 --> 0:53:16.200 older black leaders, including former mayor Bill Campbell and Andrew Young. 0:53:17.440 --> 0:53:20.040 This appears to have been a hastily thrown together event 0:53:20.080 --> 0:53:22.440 and only a few media outlets were even aware that 0:53:22.480 --> 0:53:24.640 it was happening, Like, we didn't get an update that. 0:53:24.560 --> 0:53:26.320 It was going. I didn't know that was happening. 0:53:26.400 --> 0:53:28.840 Yeah, it just it kind of cropped up and seemed 0:53:28.880 --> 0:53:31.400 to take everyone by surprise. And of course it looks 0:53:31.440 --> 0:53:34.440 like the press conference was held to counteract the autopsy 0:53:34.480 --> 0:53:37.399 report coming out that day. Yeah, but that failed, and 0:53:37.560 --> 0:53:41.680 the autopsy report was the bigger story. Notably, the AJAC 0:53:42.000 --> 0:53:44.960 did not print the autopsy report on the first day, 0:53:45.040 --> 0:53:48.000 but it was pretty well covered elsewhere on the landscape, 0:53:49.080 --> 0:53:51.759 and the autopsy caused a second city councilor to speak 0:53:51.760 --> 0:53:55.279 out against cop city and a growing number of state 0:53:55.320 --> 0:53:58.920 representatives have started to speak out, you know, as that happened, 0:53:58.960 --> 0:54:02.160 and as the rest of the solidarity fund. But Dickens 0:54:02.280 --> 0:54:05.160 is of course unmoved and preparing for this fight to 0:54:05.239 --> 0:54:08.760 last a while. Then, of course, there was the city 0:54:08.760 --> 0:54:12.520 council vote on June fifth, and there had been some 0:54:12.560 --> 0:54:16.000 work done behind the scenes to try to get this 0:54:16.080 --> 0:54:19.279 set back to committee. Apparently Dickens like peeled off city. 0:54:19.360 --> 0:54:22.719 He called the maybe votes into his office early that 0:54:22.840 --> 0:54:26.480 morning and peeled off the votes to ensure that that 0:54:26.640 --> 0:54:31.400 copsity continued on. We should I wrote this, of course, 0:54:32.080 --> 0:54:35.560 I think months ago at this point. So, yeah, a 0:54:35.600 --> 0:54:40.719 couple quick highlights again the affordable housing. So with our 0:54:40.760 --> 0:54:43.400 affordable housing, it is supposed to get a certain percentage 0:54:43.440 --> 0:54:46.359 of our general operating budget, and it started out at 0:54:46.360 --> 0:54:47.880 one and a half percent, and then it was supposed 0:54:47.880 --> 0:54:48.960 to go up to two percent and two and a 0:54:49.000 --> 0:54:50.719 half percents where it's going to cap out. So this 0:54:50.800 --> 0:54:52.759 year was supposed to go to two percent. He kept 0:54:52.800 --> 0:54:55.760 it one and a half percent, but he did announce 0:54:55.800 --> 0:54:59.680 a public private partnership to offer one hundred million dollars 0:54:59.760 --> 0:55:04.600 in in affordable housing bonds. Really, so we we love 0:55:04.680 --> 0:55:08.360 our public private partnership Atlantaway things to get things done. 0:55:08.560 --> 0:55:09.560 Yeah, that seems like the way. 0:55:09.640 --> 0:55:12.239 That's I mean, that's what I'm excited about for for 0:55:12.400 --> 0:55:16.040 the the extra thirty million dollars bond to APF. That'll 0:55:16.239 --> 0:55:18.640 certainly get paid back in a reasonable time period. 0:55:18.480 --> 0:55:22.160 Any completely reasonable time period, and you know that'll get 0:55:22.160 --> 0:55:25.080 paid back, I'm sure. And we're not going to continue 0:55:25.080 --> 0:55:27.440 to pay anything. And APF is not going to make 0:55:27.440 --> 0:55:28.080 any money. 0:55:27.840 --> 0:55:29.000 Off No, this is none. 0:55:30.400 --> 0:55:33.120 Surely this project is not a massive taxpayer sinkhole. 0:55:35.000 --> 0:55:38.279 So that's it. That's the mayor. 0:55:38.400 --> 0:55:38.959 That's the mayor. 0:55:39.000 --> 0:55:42.600 That's where we are. And then when's the next mayoral election. 0:55:42.400 --> 0:55:45.040 So twenty twenty five, and of course Dickens has to 0:55:45.040 --> 0:55:48.160 move the needle. There was there were like some calls 0:55:48.200 --> 0:55:52.480 for a recall campaign around Chickens, especially amongst the movement. 0:55:53.160 --> 0:55:55.600 Like I personally don't think that it would have any 0:55:55.680 --> 0:56:00.200 chance of succeeding. There's kind of there's a perception that 0:56:00.200 --> 0:56:03.200 that he's doing okay. And you know, when you have 0:56:03.360 --> 0:56:07.560 somebody that was probed by the FBI for corruption just 0:56:07.600 --> 0:56:11.000 a few years ago, your standards of what the area 0:56:11.120 --> 0:56:11.800 kind of changes. 0:56:12.239 --> 0:56:15.120 People seem to be putting lots of their They dedicated 0:56:15.880 --> 0:56:18.360 some of their dedicated efforts in terms of like electoral 0:56:18.400 --> 0:56:21.759 sign up stuff as being put towards the referendum which 0:56:21.760 --> 0:56:24.319 got approved a few days ago. To continue, they need 0:56:24.400 --> 0:56:26.319 to colletch like what seventy five thousand signatures from people 0:56:26.320 --> 0:56:29.279 who were residents of Atlanta and registered to vote in 0:56:29.280 --> 0:56:32.239 twenty twenty one, which seems like a pretty high bar. 0:56:33.000 --> 0:56:34.160 That's a lot of signatures. 0:56:34.200 --> 0:56:37.200 So it's a lot of signatures. And because the organizers 0:56:37.239 --> 0:56:40.520 say this municipal clerk was like playing games and withholding 0:56:40.960 --> 0:56:45.320 approving the signatures, so they don't have approving the referendum, 0:56:45.360 --> 0:56:48.080 and so they don't have the full like sixty days, 0:56:48.200 --> 0:56:50.640 like two weeks fifty No, it's fifty seven days. So 0:56:51.160 --> 0:56:53.719 I think it's like it's they have to have them 0:56:53.760 --> 0:56:55.640 by August fifteenth. 0:56:55.320 --> 0:56:57.920 Which is a lot of signatures, and August fifting is 0:56:57.960 --> 0:57:02.320 around when construction was supposed to art for cop city, 0:57:02.400 --> 0:57:06.200 So yeah, and then for other mayor roal candidates. I've 0:57:06.360 --> 0:57:10.759 heard rumor that friend of the show ontologically evil Mary 0:57:10.800 --> 0:57:12.880 Nor would may be interested in trying to run again. 0:57:13.000 --> 0:57:15.840 So this is like her her kind of move is 0:57:15.880 --> 0:57:18.760 she does she runs for mayor? All right, Well, first 0:57:18.760 --> 0:57:20.600 she does a term of city council and then she 0:57:20.680 --> 0:57:23.280 runs from mayor and then she doesn't get the mayorl spots, 0:57:23.280 --> 0:57:25.120 so she takes a you know, four years off, she 0:57:25.160 --> 0:57:27.720 comes back, runs for city council, runs from mayor, takes 0:57:27.760 --> 0:57:30.880 four years off. So we were now in her you know, 0:57:31.000 --> 0:57:34.080 mayor her city council term. And if she's going to 0:57:34.080 --> 0:57:35.880 do this for a third time, then she will run 0:57:35.880 --> 0:57:41.560 for mayor in twenty twenty five, which would suck. I mean, 0:57:41.600 --> 0:57:42.920 she came close last time. 0:57:42.800 --> 0:57:46.560 She did, and I think how depending on if, depending 0:57:46.640 --> 0:57:49.040 on how progress in the cop city construction goes. 0:57:49.520 --> 0:57:53.000 She has a way to frame this being like. 0:57:52.080 --> 0:57:54.800 Like I was the one who was actually in support 0:57:54.840 --> 0:57:58.080 of this popular proposal the whole time, and look we 0:57:58.160 --> 0:57:59.760 succeeded only because of me. 0:58:00.440 --> 0:58:03.280 Yes, she can do that, And there is so Atlanta's 0:58:03.360 --> 0:58:06.360 demographics are changing. We're no longer a majority block city. 0:58:06.840 --> 0:58:10.920 The population is down to like forty eight percent black people. 0:58:11.080 --> 0:58:15.200 So there Dickens is being called possibly the last black 0:58:15.200 --> 0:58:19.800 mayor of Atlanta, and you know that will be a 0:58:19.840 --> 0:58:23.560 shock to our systems. And Mary Norwood would be like 0:58:23.880 --> 0:58:25.960 just a way to quickly kill that. 0:58:26.360 --> 0:58:28.680 Yeah, And like I said, the only way to acurately 0:58:28.720 --> 0:58:33.240 describer is just ontologically evil like she is. She she 0:58:33.400 --> 0:58:38.920 is just that bad. She's like she's Yeah, it's not great, 0:58:39.200 --> 0:58:42.520 would not be fun. But she's not the mayor. 0:58:42.560 --> 0:58:42.800 It is. 0:58:42.840 --> 0:58:44.560 It is Mayor Dickens who is the shitty mayor of 0:58:44.640 --> 0:58:47.840 this episode, and based on how much power he has 0:58:47.880 --> 0:58:50.200 to change things and how much what he's decided to 0:58:50.240 --> 0:58:52.960 do with that power when instead of actually supporting all 0:58:52.960 --> 0:58:56.000 the affordable housing things, he's funneled millions of dollars to 0:58:56.120 --> 0:58:59.400 cop City, to the Atleanto Police Foundation, has refused any 0:58:59.440 --> 0:59:05.080 measure to revoke the land lease ordinance and even even 0:59:05.200 --> 0:59:07.200 even if not not to cancel the project, even just 0:59:07.200 --> 0:59:09.200 to move it somewhere else, He's refused every step of 0:59:09.240 --> 0:59:13.040 the way. And yeah, well we'll see how that does 0:59:13.120 --> 0:59:14.480 him in the next election cycle. 0:59:14.560 --> 0:59:17.240 Yeah, I'm really interested to see, uh how he plays 0:59:17.240 --> 0:59:17.920 the referendum. 0:59:19.480 --> 0:59:21.320 I'm I'm I'm I'm interested to see if the referend 0:59:21.400 --> 0:59:22.880 them will even be a threat at all, because if 0:59:22.880 --> 0:59:25.720 it if it's, if it's, if it fails to get 0:59:26.160 --> 0:59:28.600 a significant abortion of signatures, then he may just ignore 0:59:28.640 --> 0:59:30.680 it because why would he bother to talk about it. 0:59:30.760 --> 0:59:33.000 Yeah, they're definitely not going to devote any resources to 0:59:33.000 --> 0:59:36.240 it until they're sure that it is a threat. But once, 0:59:36.520 --> 0:59:39.320 once it you know, potentially becomes a threat, they will, 0:59:39.880 --> 0:59:41.080 They've got to start doing something. 0:59:41.280 --> 0:59:43.920 Yeah, well we are we are like what two or 0:59:43.960 --> 0:59:45.720 three days into the week of Action at this point. 0:59:47.000 --> 0:59:50.160 I definitely I don't know what what things are like, 0:59:50.280 --> 0:59:53.480 but there's still is some days left. So yeah, if 0:59:53.480 --> 0:59:56.280 you if, if you're if you're in Atlanta, try to 0:59:56.320 --> 0:59:59.400 stay safe and stay as dangerous as you feel comfortable. 0:59:59.520 --> 1:00:01.000 Say hey to us when you see us. 1:00:01.240 --> 1:00:04.520 Sure, do you have any Do you have any things 1:00:04.520 --> 1:00:07.960 you would like to plug? Matt from the Atlanta Community 1:00:07.960 --> 1:00:08.560 Press Collective? 1:00:08.800 --> 1:00:11.400 Yes, so I am Matt and I work for the 1:00:11.400 --> 1:00:13.440 Atlantic Community Press Collective. If you want to check out 1:00:13.480 --> 1:00:17.680 our work, our website is Atlpresscollective dot com. We also 1:00:17.720 --> 1:00:21.760 do a lot on Twitter. Our handle is at Atlanta 1:00:22.560 --> 1:00:26.200 Underscore Press, and our Instagram, where we post a lot 1:00:26.200 --> 1:00:28.720 of our videos, is atl Press Collective. 1:00:29.360 --> 1:00:32.120 And then you can also donate a solidarity fund, not 1:00:32.360 --> 1:00:34.720 at the regular solidary fund website. Still I believe it's 1:00:34.760 --> 1:00:37.360 I believe it's still the National Bail Fund one right. 1:00:37.440 --> 1:00:39.440 I believe it is still the National Bail Fund until 1:00:39.520 --> 1:00:41.840 probably until that court case is settled. 1:00:41.880 --> 1:00:42.520 Got it all right? 1:00:42.720 --> 1:00:45.920 So yeah, make sure you go to the right site 1:00:46.240 --> 1:00:48.439 for the for the Act Blue National bil bail fund 1:00:48.480 --> 1:00:52.000 towards the Atlanta Solidarity Fund. Anyway, So that was the 1:00:52.000 --> 1:00:54.600 shitty mayor of today, Mayor Andre Dickens. I'll make the 1:00:54.680 --> 1:00:56.600 joke again. I think it's funny that the previous mayor 1:00:56.640 --> 1:01:00.440 was named Bottoms, the current mayor is named Dickens. It's Dickens, 1:01:01.040 --> 1:01:04.240 Dickens Bottoms anyway, no comment. That's the joke that I've 1:01:04.240 --> 1:01:05.880 made before. I'm going to keep making it until he's 1:01:05.960 --> 1:01:09.320 until he's no longer mayor. Unless someone else runs for 1:01:09.960 --> 1:01:13.919 we could do, nor would Dickens Bottom. No never, I'm 1:01:13.920 --> 1:01:16.280 not even gonna bother joking about that because that would 1:01:16.320 --> 1:01:17.280 be so, that'd be so. 1:01:17.840 --> 1:01:19.640 Don't put it in exactly exactly. 1:01:19.720 --> 1:01:21.400 That doesn't need anyway. 1:01:22.840 --> 1:01:25.880 Yeah, see you on the other side, Stay safe, stayed interesting. 1:01:25.920 --> 1:01:41.760 The Week of Action TATA. 1:01:43.080 --> 1:01:46.040 Hello everyone, Welcome to the podcast. It could happen here. 1:01:46.160 --> 1:01:48.960 It's me James today and I am joined for a 1:01:49.720 --> 1:01:53.080 rare example of Daniel Daniel being on the podcast. 1:01:53.280 --> 1:01:56.960 Yes, well, I'm James, thank you for having me. I'm 1:01:57.000 --> 1:01:59.600 thrilled to be here, uh to talk with you on 1:01:59.640 --> 1:02:01.840 the PODCAS cast that I edit every single day. 1:02:02.120 --> 1:02:02.360 Yeah. 1:02:02.600 --> 1:02:04.560 Yeah, normally you just hear me, but at this time 1:02:04.600 --> 1:02:08.120 you get they like the Dan. It's like the subaltant speaks, 1:02:08.120 --> 1:02:11.680 but it's Daniel. I couldn't fucking I couldn't really go 1:02:11.720 --> 1:02:14.360 anywhere with that, so I just I just left the 1:02:14.400 --> 1:02:17.120 two halves of the joke out there, either of them 1:02:17.240 --> 1:02:17.920 with a partner. 1:02:18.680 --> 1:02:19.200 Very sad. 1:02:19.640 --> 1:02:23.480 Yeah, So, Daniel, we're here today to talk about first 1:02:23.560 --> 1:02:26.200 day kits and the reason we're talking about first Ay 1:02:26.240 --> 1:02:28.560 kits is because it is Pride Month at the time 1:02:28.600 --> 1:02:31.320 of recording. That, of course, in the United States, means 1:02:31.320 --> 1:02:36.160 that people are worried about being murdered by homophobic psychopaths. Unfortunately, 1:02:36.200 --> 1:02:38.800 so mm hmm. That is uh, that is the world 1:02:38.840 --> 1:02:40.720 that we live in, and it shouldn't be. It's fucked up, 1:02:41.920 --> 1:02:45.320 and it hopefully won't be this way forever because you know, 1:02:45.360 --> 1:02:49.400 all these people are wrong and will die eventually and 1:02:49.920 --> 1:02:53.720 that will make the world better. But fingers crossed, Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, 1:02:53.720 --> 1:02:54.040 we can. 1:02:54.720 --> 1:02:57.160 We can hope. I guess maybe they're raising a new 1:02:57.200 --> 1:03:02.320 generation of Turfs or whatever. I don't think hopefully not. 1:03:02.400 --> 1:03:02.760 Let's not. 1:03:04.040 --> 1:03:06.680 Yeah, So I just wanted to talk because I've seen 1:03:06.680 --> 1:03:10.080 a bunch of people online, like a lot of people 1:03:10.400 --> 1:03:14.120 who are in the like lgbt QI a community, or 1:03:14.160 --> 1:03:17.600 who are going to pride just being like, oh fuck 1:03:17.720 --> 1:03:19.880 like it. Genuinely, I can see why people are very 1:03:19.920 --> 1:03:24.240 afraid right because violence against queer people is at least 1:03:24.800 --> 1:03:28.400 seemingly increasing. I'm not going to give you training because 1:03:28.400 --> 1:03:30.880 this is a podcast and you can't learn first AID 1:03:30.920 --> 1:03:35.640 on a podcast, and you can't learn it on YouTube either. Really, 1:03:36.520 --> 1:03:39.360 I wanted to talk briefly about like supplies and then 1:03:39.560 --> 1:03:45.640 places to get training, because that is very important. I 1:03:45.760 --> 1:03:47.880 have bought my first ay it that I used for work. 1:03:48.280 --> 1:03:49.800 I have quite a few that I used for work. 1:03:49.840 --> 1:03:52.000 Actually I don't like to repack them. And I know 1:03:52.080 --> 1:03:55.000 that you have bought one that Jeffrey Bezos kindly sent you. 1:03:55.240 --> 1:03:55.960 Yes, exactly. 1:03:56.080 --> 1:03:56.280 Yeah. 1:03:56.320 --> 1:04:00.440 At the height of the you know, the George Floyd protests, 1:04:00.440 --> 1:04:03.160 et cetera, I was out there in the streets and 1:04:03.320 --> 1:04:05.800 kind of after observing what was happening in Portland and 1:04:05.840 --> 1:04:09.720 after you know, listening into and editing it could happen 1:04:09.760 --> 1:04:14.160 to year episodes and you know what Gear and Robert 1:04:14.240 --> 1:04:19.240 were covering. It felt, if not necessary, but very prudent 1:04:19.400 --> 1:04:22.440 to invest in something like this, so that should there 1:04:22.480 --> 1:04:24.480 be a need to help people in the streets, I 1:04:24.520 --> 1:04:27.600 was there unable to do so, and whether or not 1:04:27.720 --> 1:04:29.720 this was a good first aid kit, I think we're 1:04:29.760 --> 1:04:30.840 going to find out today. 1:04:31.120 --> 1:04:32.640 Yeah, that's the aim of the game. 1:04:32.960 --> 1:04:35.280 I should point out that, like my medical training is 1:04:35.320 --> 1:04:38.240 pretty basic, right, I'm not that kind of doctor, but 1:04:38.760 --> 1:04:41.240 I do have a wilderness first responder and a wilderness 1:04:41.240 --> 1:04:44.080 first aid and to start the bleed training, and I've 1:04:44.080 --> 1:04:48.840 done CPR training and I've done hostile environment first aid training, 1:04:49.440 --> 1:04:51.280 so a bunch of stuff which is focused around very 1:04:51.360 --> 1:04:52.919 very very basic first aid. 1:04:53.000 --> 1:04:53.160 Right. 1:04:53.200 --> 1:04:56.080 In all of those cases, it's like make sure the 1:04:56.080 --> 1:04:57.960 person doesn't die immediately, and then get them to someone 1:04:57.960 --> 1:04:59.480 who is better trained than you so that they can 1:04:59.480 --> 1:05:02.960 help them more men, which is like, listen, if you 1:05:02.960 --> 1:05:05.840 are learning about medical stuff on the podcast hosted by 1:05:05.840 --> 1:05:07.800 a guy who has a PhD in mon European history, 1:05:07.920 --> 1:05:12.040 then that that is what you are doing too, right, Like, yes, 1:05:12.560 --> 1:05:13.880 and we're going to talk about that, because you can 1:05:13.960 --> 1:05:17.240 for sure fuck someone up if you if you go 1:05:17.360 --> 1:05:19.320 sort of outside of your scope of knowledge, and that 1:05:20.400 --> 1:05:23.720 it's I understand the desire to help, but we have 1:05:23.800 --> 1:05:25.240 to help in the way that it's most helpful. 1:05:25.280 --> 1:05:29.480 I guess, not do any harm. So yeah, let's go over. 1:05:29.920 --> 1:05:32.000 Let's let's go over I guess my first aid kit, 1:05:32.280 --> 1:05:34.040 and then we can we can open yours and see 1:05:34.040 --> 1:05:35.200 what's the same and what's different. 1:05:35.280 --> 1:05:37.280 Right, So this is one. 1:05:37.760 --> 1:05:39.320 I like it because it's small and it fits in 1:05:39.360 --> 1:05:41.080 the smaller my back, and if I really needed to, 1:05:41.160 --> 1:05:42.800 I could just like wear a kind of baggy shirt 1:05:42.840 --> 1:05:45.080 and it wouldn't be too obvious. I also have one 1:05:45.080 --> 1:05:47.200 that fits around my ankle for times when I really 1:05:47.200 --> 1:05:49.360 don't want people to know I have it, but that 1:05:49.480 --> 1:05:50.880 I also want to have it. 1:05:52.240 --> 1:05:54.440 And then you can wear some sick flared jeans or. 1:05:54.360 --> 1:05:56.800 Something and people just think you're a trendy kind of 1:05:56.800 --> 1:05:58.600 guy exactly. 1:05:58.920 --> 1:06:02.240 Yeah, they'll know. So yeah, in mind, it sort of 1:06:02.280 --> 1:06:02.480 goes on. 1:06:02.480 --> 1:06:04.000 It's one of your back and then you can pull 1:06:04.000 --> 1:06:06.120 it away, right, has a big old red handle. You 1:06:06.120 --> 1:06:09.400 just put it like that and it comes away. Yeah, 1:06:09.400 --> 1:06:11.960 it's nice. That's one thing I will say right off 1:06:12.000 --> 1:06:14.680 the bat is like, I've seen a number of people 1:06:14.680 --> 1:06:15.200 get hurt. 1:06:15.080 --> 1:06:16.280 In a number of different situations. 1:06:16.320 --> 1:06:18.840 I've seen a number of people render first date, including myself, 1:06:19.600 --> 1:06:25.600 sometimes successfully, sometimes sadly not successfully. And if you're if 1:06:25.640 --> 1:06:28.200 you have a big bag of shit and then you 1:06:28.240 --> 1:06:30.520 open your bag of shit and you're just throwing stuff everywhere, 1:06:30.520 --> 1:06:34.600 Stuff's falling on the ground, it you're that's not helpful, right, 1:06:34.680 --> 1:06:38.960 like the things that will kill people that are preventable 1:06:40.000 --> 1:06:42.440 for the most part in and like trauma injuries. Right, 1:06:42.480 --> 1:06:43.960 Like the stuff that we might see if we're going 1:06:44.000 --> 1:06:47.280 to a pride, if we're attending a protest, and if 1:06:47.320 --> 1:06:51.560 we fucking work in a school in America, right is 1:06:51.680 --> 1:06:56.800 largely like like attention umothora, so a whole sucking chest 1:06:56.840 --> 1:07:01.960 wound and losing blood and losing blood is I believe 1:07:02.120 --> 1:07:05.160 that the sort of most common preventable cause of death 1:07:05.200 --> 1:07:06.280 in intrauma injuries. 1:07:06.360 --> 1:07:09.040 So most of us is going to focus around losing blood. 1:07:09.120 --> 1:07:13.480 And that's where tyber training called stop the bleed comes in, right, 1:07:13.480 --> 1:07:15.640 I believe it's stop the Bleed dot org. You can 1:07:15.680 --> 1:07:18.480 google free stop the Bleed classes near me. I've previously 1:07:18.480 --> 1:07:21.160 posted a link to where you can put in your postcode, 1:07:21.480 --> 1:07:26.240 zip code and find free stop the Bleed training near you. 1:07:27.640 --> 1:07:29.680 And again that will cost you no money at all 1:07:29.800 --> 1:07:33.600 cost you about half a day of your time. Oh great, yeah, yeah, 1:07:33.080 --> 1:07:35.360 it's a great thing actually, Like it's one of the 1:07:35.360 --> 1:07:38.680 few things that you know, the municipal governments of various 1:07:38.720 --> 1:07:41.040 things put on, well if there isn't one near you. 1:07:41.200 --> 1:07:44.000 I've heard the people hitting up fire departments and then 1:07:44.080 --> 1:07:46.960 getting them to put one on if they can demonstrate 1:07:47.000 --> 1:07:50.560 some interest because it is very basic. And most fire 1:07:50.600 --> 1:07:52.560 departments will have paramedics, right, which is a sort of 1:07:52.560 --> 1:07:55.400 step up from an empty So those folks can help 1:07:55.840 --> 1:08:00.240 teach those things very well. So what is in here 1:08:00.240 --> 1:08:01.760 for stopping the bleed? And I'm not going to teach 1:08:01.800 --> 1:08:04.400 you how to use it because that's what someone else. 1:08:04.280 --> 1:08:05.560 Does, someone else's job. 1:08:05.880 --> 1:08:09.280 Yeah, So before I open it up, this is a tornicue. 1:08:10.080 --> 1:08:15.200 Some people will pronounce it incorrectly. They will say that 1:08:15.240 --> 1:08:19.240 those people are with that hard t yeah yeah, yeah, 1:08:19.240 --> 1:08:20.960 the American way. 1:08:21.040 --> 1:08:21.280 Yeah. 1:08:21.360 --> 1:08:24.800 So it's what this guy is is is it? It's 1:08:24.960 --> 1:08:28.559 for like bleeding your limbs, arterial bleeding your limbs? Right, 1:08:28.600 --> 1:08:31.640 it just goes around since it down and I'm not 1:08:31.640 --> 1:08:33.200 telling you how to use it, and then you tighten 1:08:33.200 --> 1:08:36.080 it up, right. The things I want to emphasize about 1:08:36.120 --> 1:08:39.280 this are one the type of tornicae that is so 1:08:39.360 --> 1:08:42.760 this is called a combat application tornice. It's made by 1:08:42.800 --> 1:08:47.080 a company called North American Rescue. There are a few 1:08:47.280 --> 1:08:50.400 other ones that I would use. The other one I have, 1:08:50.439 --> 1:08:53.559 I think is the Softy Wide and I have some 1:08:53.720 --> 1:08:58.720 of the REVX med ratcheting tornices as well. They use 1:08:58.760 --> 1:09:01.120 like a boa. If people have used ski boots cycling shoes, 1:09:01.120 --> 1:09:04.400 they'll be familiar with a bone call. The one to 1:09:04.439 --> 1:09:06.439 buy is the one that you use when you do 1:09:06.479 --> 1:09:09.519 your training right, and it's going to be a sam 1:09:09.560 --> 1:09:10.200 as another one. 1:09:10.439 --> 1:09:10.920 There's another. 1:09:11.280 --> 1:09:13.880 These are all the tonques you want to buy if 1:09:13.960 --> 1:09:17.240 you're sort of if you're confused about which one you used. 1:09:17.960 --> 1:09:20.560 The ones that are approved by the t trouble C. 1:09:21.160 --> 1:09:25.960 It's a Committee on Tactical Casualty Care, Tactical casualt com. 1:09:26.160 --> 1:09:26.639 Something like that. 1:09:27.760 --> 1:09:29.880 Those guys have tested them extensively right to see which 1:09:29.920 --> 1:09:33.000 wants work, which wants don't. It is this is not 1:09:33.120 --> 1:09:35.719 somewhere to save money. That they they are about twenty 1:09:35.720 --> 1:09:39.160 three twenty five bucks. You find them on sale, it's not. Yeah, 1:09:39.240 --> 1:09:41.519 I mean, if if that's a big expense for you, 1:09:41.560 --> 1:09:45.559 then I understand uh, and it's it's okay not to 1:09:45.720 --> 1:09:47.840 have one if that's a big expense, or to save 1:09:47.920 --> 1:09:52.320 up and wait, like, that's okay, it's better than using 1:09:52.880 --> 1:09:57.280 an improvised tornic care. Right, there are not very many 1:09:57.520 --> 1:10:01.120 very good studies at least that I could find on 1:10:01.920 --> 1:10:05.479 improvised tornic k's. Someplaces still teaching improvises tornic K, like 1:10:05.600 --> 1:10:07.760 I've taken a Woman's First Responder where they taught it. 1:10:08.960 --> 1:10:13.000 I've also seen one not work, and I will tell 1:10:13.000 --> 1:10:16.120 you that's not an experience that I want to ever 1:10:16.160 --> 1:10:19.200 have again in my life, and I don't think it's 1:10:19.240 --> 1:10:20.920 one i'd like you all to share with me. So 1:10:22.240 --> 1:10:23.880 I would suggest if you're going to be using a 1:10:23.920 --> 1:10:26.200 tornic K, then then buying a cat is kind of 1:10:26.200 --> 1:10:29.320 the standard. I wouldn't buy it from Jeffrey Bezos because 1:10:29.880 --> 1:10:34.480 this Amazon dot com is a website that he owns. Believe, yeah, 1:10:34.640 --> 1:10:38.640 space cowboy Jeffrey. And so the reason why is that 1:10:38.760 --> 1:10:41.880 all of these different there are knockoffs, right, there are 1:10:41.880 --> 1:10:45.280 fakes of this. They go in different they go in 1:10:45.320 --> 1:10:47.160 the same bin from what I'm told, and then the 1:10:47.160 --> 1:10:49.439 person who's a picker just maybe grabs one. And sometimes 1:10:49.479 --> 1:10:51.479 you can end up with a fake. What can happen 1:10:51.520 --> 1:10:55.040 with a fake is the strap can break or the windless. 1:10:55.040 --> 1:10:57.280 So the windless is the guy that tightens it can break. 1:10:57.520 --> 1:11:00.400 Ah Okay, either of those things go to lead to 1:11:00.400 --> 1:11:02.599 the tornicue failing. Right, it's not going to apply enough pressure, 1:11:03.520 --> 1:11:06.080 and that's going to It could do a number of 1:11:06.120 --> 1:11:07.879 things right. It could just fail to start the bleeding, 1:11:08.320 --> 1:11:10.680 depending on if you've misidentified the bleeding. You could give 1:11:10.680 --> 1:11:13.880 someone a compartment syndrome or something. It's going to be 1:11:13.920 --> 1:11:16.040 very painful. It's going to be very painful anyway, and 1:11:16.120 --> 1:11:18.040 you'll learn that in your course which you're going to take. 1:11:18.120 --> 1:11:20.360 You're not gonna not going to just listen to me 1:11:20.400 --> 1:11:21.560 on the podcast. 1:11:23.400 --> 1:11:23.800 Thank you. 1:11:24.840 --> 1:11:27.360 And so you do want a real one, and so 1:11:27.400 --> 1:11:29.160 the easiest way to obtain a real one is to 1:11:29.160 --> 1:11:34.120 buy one from a reliable source. Rescue Essentials, Chinook Medical 1:11:34.320 --> 1:11:36.840 and North American Rescuer or people who I've worked with. 1:11:37.200 --> 1:11:39.000 I've said at Rescue Essential sent me a bunch of 1:11:39.000 --> 1:11:42.240 shit before I went on a work trip. They it 1:11:42.280 --> 1:11:44.360 was lots of it was outdated or the open box 1:11:44.439 --> 1:11:45.960 or something. And I was able to donate that to 1:11:46.439 --> 1:11:49.479 fixes and journalists I was working with. I thought that 1:11:49.520 --> 1:11:52.080 was very cool of them. Cool they offer a stop 1:11:52.120 --> 1:11:54.000 the Bleed month discount. I think stop the Bleed month 1:11:54.080 --> 1:11:55.679 is May, so we might be out of that now. 1:11:55.760 --> 1:11:58.479 But those are real places where you can buy these 1:11:58.520 --> 1:12:02.040 tonic caes and know that you're not getting a fake one, right, So. 1:12:02.000 --> 1:12:04.680 You'll provide links to that in the description of the place. 1:12:04.479 --> 1:12:06.080 We will yeap, yeah, yeah, I'll make sure that those 1:12:06.080 --> 1:12:10.320 are there for you to click. So's there are different generations, 1:12:10.960 --> 1:12:13.759 like I think generation seven is what I have. Generation 1:12:13.840 --> 1:12:18.439 six is also fine. You probably won't find one sold 1:12:18.479 --> 1:12:19.800 before that. On the off chance you do, I would 1:12:19.800 --> 1:12:22.760 just stick to a generation seven or six. And it 1:12:22.760 --> 1:12:24.960 does have a little timestamps, so you want little sharpie 1:12:25.000 --> 1:12:28.479 as well to write the time on. That's more important. 1:12:29.479 --> 1:12:31.679 It's possible that, like you might put this on somebody. 1:12:31.720 --> 1:12:33.160 So you're at a Pride event and there is something 1:12:33.240 --> 1:12:35.600 terrible happening, like a mass shooter, and you might be 1:12:35.720 --> 1:12:38.320 there for a while. Let's say you're in Texas and 1:12:38.320 --> 1:12:42.720 all your cops are fucking cowards. Then unfortunately, if you 1:12:42.720 --> 1:12:44.639 were able to render aid someone and then you both 1:12:44.680 --> 1:12:46.200 of you were able to not get hurt any further. 1:12:46.240 --> 1:12:47.920 You could be there for a while. Then it would 1:12:47.920 --> 1:12:50.160 be relevant what time the tornic ga is applied. Normally, 1:12:50.479 --> 1:12:52.040 you know, in the US, we would hope that you 1:12:52.040 --> 1:12:55.479 would have medical attention pretty quickly because you know, that 1:12:55.640 --> 1:12:57.920 threat would have been stopped and then EMS would be 1:12:57.960 --> 1:13:00.880 able to provide help. But that that's where the time 1:13:00.920 --> 1:13:03.000 thing comes in, right, And so you want to have 1:13:03.000 --> 1:13:04.720 a tiny sharpie when you have a tornic in and 1:13:04.840 --> 1:13:07.280 you can get. North American Rescue actually sell little tiny, 1:13:07.280 --> 1:13:09.120 half sized sharpies and I shove them in the pouch 1:13:09.280 --> 1:13:11.240 with the torn ue and then there they are, and 1:13:11.280 --> 1:13:14.439 then you always have a sharpie. So we go inside 1:13:14.479 --> 1:13:14.880 there it is. 1:13:14.920 --> 1:13:19.639 Look at that. Okay, Hey, the little guy's a cute. Yeah, 1:13:19.760 --> 1:13:22.240 isn't it gorgeous? Yeah? We love a little guy here, 1:13:22.640 --> 1:13:23.799 credit card size sharpie. 1:13:23.800 --> 1:13:24.320 It's perfect. 1:13:24.600 --> 1:13:28.360 Yeah, yeah, for those who are not danel exactly with 1:13:28.479 --> 1:13:29.520 a pinky sharpie. 1:13:29.720 --> 1:13:30.880 And I will do I will do the part of 1:13:30.920 --> 1:13:33.320 contextualizing for the for the non video audience. 1:13:33.439 --> 1:13:33.960 Thank you, Daniel. 1:13:34.040 --> 1:13:36.599 Yeah, of course, paint a picture with words if you will. 1:13:38.000 --> 1:13:39.600 So we're going through this now, if we if we 1:13:39.640 --> 1:13:42.960 focus on bleeding again, right, there's a couple of different 1:13:43.439 --> 1:13:44.439 dressings that you have. 1:13:44.560 --> 1:13:46.200 So again I'm not going to. 1:13:46.120 --> 1:13:48.840 Tell you what to use for wear, but you would 1:13:48.920 --> 1:13:51.160 use like the tornique on one part of your body. 1:13:52.040 --> 1:13:53.920 The other things you're going to use would be a 1:13:53.960 --> 1:13:57.160 pressure dressing. So you can get a ton of different 1:13:57.160 --> 1:14:00.559 pressure dressings. I like the Olays ones. Oh well a ees, 1:14:02.400 --> 1:14:04.960 but it doesn't hugely matter that those ones just have 1:14:05.000 --> 1:14:06.479 a little bit of gorez that you can pull out 1:14:06.560 --> 1:14:08.040 so you can pack a wound too. 1:14:07.920 --> 1:14:08.200 And that. 1:14:10.240 --> 1:14:11.960 Sometimes if you do so, if you get like a 1:14:12.040 --> 1:14:14.679 nice training, they might let you practice packing some wounds, 1:14:14.680 --> 1:14:17.280 so they might have like a little fake wound that 1:14:17.320 --> 1:14:20.360 you can pack and yeah, so that you'll learn a 1:14:20.360 --> 1:14:24.320 lot about like how to do that there. And so 1:14:24.840 --> 1:14:27.360 those allowed. Some of the other ones don't. But honestly, 1:14:27.439 --> 1:14:32.200 like sometimes they're called Israeli bandages. They will not like 1:14:32.720 --> 1:14:35.880 colonize Palestine if you you know, put them in your. 1:14:35.920 --> 1:14:36.479 First gate kit. 1:14:37.479 --> 1:14:40.880 But that that's what this guy is, right, And sometimes 1:14:40.880 --> 1:14:43.479 they have a lot of packaging on, so you want 1:14:43.479 --> 1:14:44.920 to take them down to kind of the last layer 1:14:44.960 --> 1:14:48.160 of packaging. None of this ship is sterile, right, None 1:14:48.160 --> 1:14:51.160 of this stuff is. Again it's not supposed to be 1:14:51.280 --> 1:14:54.080 in for a long time, right, So it's so it's 1:14:54.080 --> 1:14:56.800 okay to have that like either just bear or in 1:14:56.840 --> 1:14:58.080 its first layer of packaging. 1:14:59.439 --> 1:15:01.799 I want to get actualize one thing from a video perspective, 1:15:01.880 --> 1:15:04.080 just for everybody listening. As James is showing me his 1:15:04.080 --> 1:15:06.720 first aid kit, it looks like every item that he's 1:15:06.760 --> 1:15:10.120 talking about other than the tournique is individually wrapped and 1:15:10.200 --> 1:15:13.479 also strapped down. Yeah, it looks like I would say, 1:15:13.479 --> 1:15:17.040 about seven or eight individual items within there, and they 1:15:17.080 --> 1:15:20.000 all have their own pocket and they're all strapped down. 1:15:20.120 --> 1:15:24.000 And that's something that immediately looking at mine, I basically have, 1:15:24.240 --> 1:15:27.200 you know, small plastic baggies that I will hold up 1:15:27.200 --> 1:15:30.000 to James right now, small plastic baggies of just like 1:15:30.120 --> 1:15:33.240 a lot of loose shits. And it's just way too 1:15:33.320 --> 1:15:35.599 much stuff in here, I would say, of what I 1:15:35.640 --> 1:15:38.519 see in James's bag versus mine, I think I mean, 1:15:38.600 --> 1:15:40.680 first of all, there's stuff missing, Like there's no turnique 1:15:40.680 --> 1:15:43.240 in here. There's a lot of different gauze things, and 1:15:43.320 --> 1:15:45.639 there's but there's you know, in mind, I have like 1:15:46.000 --> 1:15:50.599 seven hundred different bandages, and like there's aspirin in here, 1:15:50.960 --> 1:15:53.200 and like some things that feel like they're more for 1:15:53.320 --> 1:15:56.560 like a camping trip than they are really like handling 1:15:56.600 --> 1:15:58.760 a first aid scenario in which you need to save 1:15:58.840 --> 1:16:02.280 someone's life. So one piece of advice that I'm getting 1:16:02.320 --> 1:16:04.800 from James as he shares this, is that you know, 1:16:05.120 --> 1:16:07.400 what's important to carry around is the stuff that is 1:16:07.400 --> 1:16:10.120 going to give you immediate access to the ability to 1:16:10.320 --> 1:16:13.720 save someone's life. So think about that as you are 1:16:13.800 --> 1:16:16.760 like packing your bag. What I have here that I 1:16:16.800 --> 1:16:19.439 bought online, that I'm still glad that I have is 1:16:19.479 --> 1:16:22.760 basically a collection of a bunch of different miscellaneous first 1:16:22.800 --> 1:16:27.200 aid stuff rather than a very stripped down specific list 1:16:27.240 --> 1:16:29.720 of items that I can use to save someone's life 1:16:29.720 --> 1:16:30.879 in an emergency scenario. 1:16:31.280 --> 1:16:34.680 Yes, excellent point, and you can see them all right 1:16:34.720 --> 1:16:38.040 when you open this guy. This guy is also like sigh, 1:16:38.160 --> 1:16:40.120 such that I can pull it off, pop it on 1:16:40.160 --> 1:16:42.599 the floor, open it up, have my workspace in front 1:16:42.600 --> 1:16:45.760 of me. If there's anything I'm not confident doing, if 1:16:46.200 --> 1:16:50.200 like when horrible things happen and people are bleeding you, 1:16:50.479 --> 1:16:54.000 you do not in that time gain skills right at 1:16:54.040 --> 1:16:58.400 that moment, speaking from like more experience than I would 1:16:58.439 --> 1:17:01.880 like to have. If people are in a really bad 1:17:01.920 --> 1:17:04.160 way in front of you. It's not a fun time, 1:17:04.280 --> 1:17:06.759 and you get scared and you might panic. That's okay, 1:17:06.880 --> 1:17:09.720 that happens to everyone. People aren't supposed to see their ship, 1:17:10.080 --> 1:17:11.760 and if it, certainly, if it's your first time seeing, 1:17:11.760 --> 1:17:13.880 it's not unreasonable at all to freak out and not 1:17:13.960 --> 1:17:15.840 know what to do. You can just hold any of 1:17:15.840 --> 1:17:17.519 this ship up, say hey I have a tornic uit. 1:17:17.800 --> 1:17:20.679 Hey I have a pressure dressing, and someone who who's 1:17:20.720 --> 1:17:22.519 at that time is able to help, can take that. 1:17:22.560 --> 1:17:24.960 You know what they're doing, they can help. So it's 1:17:25.000 --> 1:17:27.720 totally fine just to have this ship. And if you 1:17:27.720 --> 1:17:29.040 don't know how to use it, you know, don't go 1:17:29.120 --> 1:17:32.000 beyond your scope of knowledge. But just you have that 1:17:32.040 --> 1:17:33.920 ship and you can provide it someone else, that's fine. 1:17:34.760 --> 1:17:37.680 So yeah, everything's in little elastic bands. I've got this 1:17:37.720 --> 1:17:40.840 stuff which is called quick clot And we've talked a 1:17:40.880 --> 1:17:44.320 lot of the podcasts recently about indigenous medical technologies. 1:17:44.479 --> 1:17:44.920 This is an. 1:17:44.920 --> 1:17:48.400 Example of one, right, So it's using I think kalin. 1:17:48.560 --> 1:17:50.920 There's some that use kalin, some that use something that 1:17:50.920 --> 1:17:53.320 came from crabshells, but this is this is an indigenous 1:17:53.600 --> 1:17:57.679 medical technology that now is sort of it's been refined 1:17:58.080 --> 1:18:02.120 over time. This just contains a thing that stops it 1:18:02.160 --> 1:18:05.160 helps blood to clotch. Hemostatic agent. Right, so when you're 1:18:05.520 --> 1:18:08.719 packing a wound, you could use this first. This would 1:18:08.720 --> 1:18:09.879 help with blood clotting. 1:18:10.040 --> 1:18:10.200 Right. 1:18:10.439 --> 1:18:13.519 It's also the type I have is detectable on X rays, 1:18:13.520 --> 1:18:16.120 which helps a lot. There are some older types which 1:18:16.120 --> 1:18:20.559 are powders. Those are probably best avoided. And you want 1:18:20.600 --> 1:18:24.280 the gauze that is impregnated with the hemostatic agent if 1:18:24.280 --> 1:18:27.479 you can. This stuff got really pricey recently, Like I 1:18:27.520 --> 1:18:29.960 think the best price I've seen for this is thirty 1:18:30.000 --> 1:18:33.040 five bucks. Oh wow, So yeah, this guy is going 1:18:33.080 --> 1:18:33.920 to cost you the most. 1:18:34.560 --> 1:18:35.720 Do you have an idea why that is? 1:18:36.080 --> 1:18:37.479 I think a lot of people probably bought it in 1:18:37.479 --> 1:18:40.040 twenty twenty. Might be part of it. Maybe it's some 1:18:40.160 --> 1:18:41.640 kind of supply chain thing. I don't know if you 1:18:41.680 --> 1:18:46.840 know where they get the ingredients from. But they just 1:18:46.880 --> 1:18:49.840 went up in price a lot link Like a lot 1:18:49.880 --> 1:18:53.320 of people were sort of reaching out about, hey, why 1:18:53.400 --> 1:18:54.400 is this shit so expensive? 1:18:54.600 --> 1:18:56.200 Sure, I don't know, but. 1:18:56.720 --> 1:18:59.120 It's not like one hundred percent necessary, but it is 1:18:59.320 --> 1:19:01.840 very helpful thing and it can make a difference in 1:19:01.880 --> 1:19:06.120 some cases. Right, So that's the hemostatic gauze. But else 1:19:06.120 --> 1:19:08.559 I've gotten here as a pair of trauma shares. That's 1:19:08.720 --> 1:19:12.559 just if you need to remove someone's clothing to access 1:19:12.560 --> 1:19:16.040 a wound, and that is kind of important. So for instance, 1:19:16.040 --> 1:19:19.439 I was doing a training once and I prefer to 1:19:19.640 --> 1:19:23.599 speak about those things. So like where a guy was 1:19:23.760 --> 1:19:27.320 presented to us with gunshot wound, and like, if you 1:19:27.400 --> 1:19:31.400 don't rip off his browsers like this, you know, if 1:19:31.400 --> 1:19:34.080 someone's been shot and you're there helping them again, like 1:19:34.120 --> 1:19:35.840 if you're not comfortable doing this, you haven't done the 1:19:35.880 --> 1:19:37.960 training and don't be just ripping off of the strangers clothes. 1:19:38.439 --> 1:19:45.240 That's weird in general. Yeah, yeah, there comes a yes. Yeah. 1:19:45.280 --> 1:19:48.280 So like and they had this cool kind of thing 1:19:48.320 --> 1:19:51.200 around his leg that bled like he had like two wounds, 1:19:51.200 --> 1:19:53.519 sort of pumping out blood. It's like a cool kind 1:19:53.560 --> 1:19:57.639 of bleeding simulator. So but yeah, bullets will do crazy 1:19:57.640 --> 1:20:00.320 ship and they'll go in one part of your leg 1:20:00.320 --> 1:20:01.840 and hit the bone abouts around and go out in 1:20:01.840 --> 1:20:03.639 fact the other. But they don't always travel in straight lines. 1:20:03.640 --> 1:20:07.840 They're not laser beams. So by exposing their wound, you 1:20:07.840 --> 1:20:11.519 can sometimes see the exit wound, and so you'll know 1:20:11.560 --> 1:20:13.400 that there are two wounds, right yeah, depending on how 1:20:13.400 --> 1:20:15.280 you're going to treat it. You know you're gonna pack it, 1:20:15.320 --> 1:20:18.160 you're gonna put a torn key on it. But that 1:20:18.160 --> 1:20:20.840 that will that's what these are for. You can also 1:20:20.840 --> 1:20:22.360 get things which are called like I think it's called 1:20:22.360 --> 1:20:29.759 a clothing knife. I actually keep one into the belt 1:20:29.760 --> 1:20:32.280 of my my plate carrier that I used to work, 1:20:32.439 --> 1:20:34.360 just so that it's like right here, and it's the 1:20:34.400 --> 1:20:36.280 same place I keep my diving knife, so then I 1:20:36.320 --> 1:20:40.240 know it's there. And what it does is these are 1:20:40.240 --> 1:20:41.880 a handy thing to have in your truck to. 1:20:43.600 --> 1:20:45.559 Yes, yeah, you've seen it. 1:20:45.640 --> 1:20:49.559 So it's a contained blade, right. I like this little 1:20:49.600 --> 1:20:53.240 chat because in addition to the contained blade, it has 1:20:53.240 --> 1:20:55.080 a little glass breaker. 1:20:55.439 --> 1:20:57.840 Yes, I say, we have one in the car, so 1:20:57.880 --> 1:20:59.439 it's like a scene. Some people might not as a 1:20:59.439 --> 1:21:02.519 sea belt cut yes, yeah, spell cutter, and usually on 1:21:02.560 --> 1:21:04.320 the other side, like you said, they have a glass breaker. 1:21:04.479 --> 1:21:06.320 So but that is a much more contained one and 1:21:06.320 --> 1:21:07.680 that looks nice. The one in my car is like 1:21:07.680 --> 1:21:09.679 the size of a small hammer because it's like meant 1:21:09.720 --> 1:21:11.479 to be like you know, give you the forest to 1:21:11.560 --> 1:21:13.320 hold it and snack of window, but also the kind 1:21:13.320 --> 1:21:15.240 of thing that is super useful. I think everybody should 1:21:15.240 --> 1:21:15.920 have one in their car. 1:21:16.240 --> 1:21:17.840 Yeah, you can put on your keyring even right. 1:21:17.880 --> 1:21:20.880 This is the size of like a like a match 1:21:20.920 --> 1:21:23.479 box or it's like the size of the key fob. 1:21:23.560 --> 1:21:25.599 Yeah, yeah, yeah. If you have a newer vehicle than 1:21:25.640 --> 1:21:30.040 I do, then I didn't mean to be car classes here. 1:21:30.120 --> 1:21:34.479 Yeah, yeah, it's okay, Min's approaching classic status. But yeah, 1:21:34.760 --> 1:21:37.759 we'll we'll put a link on the on the website 1:21:37.760 --> 1:21:40.320 for this little chap as well. We're not like, we're 1:21:40.360 --> 1:21:43.639 not fucking getting affiliate revenue from that weirdness. Guys, We're 1:21:43.680 --> 1:21:44.240 just trying to. 1:21:44.320 --> 1:21:44.840 Help you out. 1:21:45.840 --> 1:21:47.560 Nice thing about this is like, it's quite hard to 1:21:47.600 --> 1:21:50.240 stab someone with trauma sheares because they've got this little 1:21:51.439 --> 1:21:53.920 up on the bottom. But it can be quite a 1:21:53.920 --> 1:21:57.320 lot of chopping and things. Right, this guy, you can whoop. 1:21:58.240 --> 1:22:01.280 So these probably also cheaper and you won't end up 1:22:01.360 --> 1:22:04.280 using them as scissors and getting them blunt. So that 1:22:04.360 --> 1:22:07.120 is that is my little getting people's clothes off. And 1:22:07.160 --> 1:22:10.000 then the last one. I have a couple of burned 1:22:10.080 --> 1:22:12.840 dressings in here. That's just because so many people got 1:22:12.880 --> 1:22:18.640 burned in twenty twenty pro from me though, Yeah, it 1:22:18.680 --> 1:22:20.800 would be. So if someone shoots something out, you don't 1:22:20.800 --> 1:22:23.240 pick that shit up, don't make it up, just don't. 1:22:23.640 --> 1:22:28.760 Like in my prepping, I got fire resistant gloves. I 1:22:28.800 --> 1:22:31.120 got like, I got gloves that were treated for like 1:22:31.200 --> 1:22:33.000 I don't reme it's like five hundred degrees or something 1:22:33.080 --> 1:22:35.120 like that in the event that I needed to throw 1:22:35.160 --> 1:22:38.040 back a gas canister. But I think I was. I mean, 1:22:38.320 --> 1:22:41.200 I was way too rambo about the whole thing because 1:22:41.240 --> 1:22:43.559 I still have not encountered a gas grenade once yet. 1:22:43.600 --> 1:22:47.599 So yeahs crossed, But I mean I don't know, I'm down. 1:22:47.680 --> 1:22:50.800 Yeah, maybe I'm ready just get him. Yeah yeah, yeah, Dave, 1:22:51.160 --> 1:22:52.719 I love that for you. It's great. 1:22:53.560 --> 1:22:55.920 Yeah, So you can't instead of having the gloves right 1:22:56.000 --> 1:22:58.120 to just avoid picking it up. But people do get 1:22:58.120 --> 1:23:01.800 burned from that from from other stuff, right, So burn 1:23:01.920 --> 1:23:05.720 dressing not really necessary because it's unlikely if someone is 1:23:05.760 --> 1:23:07.559 burned to the extent that it's threatening to their life. 1:23:07.600 --> 1:23:09.599 You aren't helping them with your little box of stuff. 1:23:10.960 --> 1:23:14.519 So that's fine. And then these guys are vented chess seals. 1:23:14.560 --> 1:23:17.080 Ideally you do want vented chess seals. I was reading 1:23:17.120 --> 1:23:18.840 a study the other day. It's yes, the sort of 1:23:19.320 --> 1:23:22.800 greater survivability. And what you are doing with those is 1:23:22.840 --> 1:23:26.120 that this is for a sucking chess wounds. Not named 1:23:26.120 --> 1:23:31.519 that because it sucks, but it does. Yeah, but it is. 1:23:32.240 --> 1:23:35.559 This is for like, I guess, penetrating chest trauma. And 1:23:35.560 --> 1:23:38.919 what these these guys I bought in a pack of two. 1:23:39.680 --> 1:23:42.240 Hyphen are a good brand. I think Halo or another brand. 1:23:42.800 --> 1:23:45.320 There are some knockoffs on on Amazon dot Com. They 1:23:45.360 --> 1:23:48.439 wouldn't buy just like again, it's probably worth spending a 1:23:48.439 --> 1:23:51.640 little bit extra. These These are the ones that have 1:23:51.720 --> 1:23:54.160 gone through extensive testing that are issued to lots of 1:23:54.200 --> 1:23:57.880 militaries around the world. They're very flat, right, if you 1:23:57.920 --> 1:23:59.960 wanted to, you could distribute the ship about your person 1:24:00.000 --> 1:24:01.400 and it's just going to be harder to get it, 1:24:01.400 --> 1:24:03.439 and you're not going to remember which back pocket maybe 1:24:03.479 --> 1:24:06.720 you shut what in Sure, these are very flat and 1:24:07.240 --> 1:24:12.360 very easy. Their their giant stickers and you, again, when 1:24:12.360 --> 1:24:14.320 you do your training, will learn how to use them. 1:24:14.439 --> 1:24:17.639 But yeah, I would avoid like the Rhino. I think 1:24:17.720 --> 1:24:19.920 Rhino is one of the brands of Amazon and stuff. 1:24:19.960 --> 1:24:22.120 Just kind of like get a hyphen is kind of 1:24:22.160 --> 1:24:27.960 the standard. There's an older type as well, but these 1:24:28.080 --> 1:24:30.439 hyphens are more compact and they're preferred. 1:24:31.760 --> 1:24:34.160 And when you're searching hyphen, if you happen to researching, 1:24:34.240 --> 1:24:36.320 it's h y f I n. We're going to put 1:24:36.320 --> 1:24:37.720 it in the chat. But just you know, for a 1:24:37.760 --> 1:24:40.880 word that is phonetically very similar to another common word, 1:24:40.960 --> 1:24:42.519 hyphen is h y f i. 1:24:42.479 --> 1:24:47.080 N ah yes, p G Yeah, So well said Daniel, 1:24:47.160 --> 1:24:51.240 that is a. That is a that's a chess seal. 1:24:51.320 --> 1:24:51.760 Right, so. 1:24:53.200 --> 1:24:56.040 Here is the other type just for you're viewing this 1:24:56.120 --> 1:25:00.519 an Asherman chess seal, so that not preferred, So stick 1:25:00.560 --> 1:25:03.960 with the hyphen. These are kind of bigger and don't 1:25:03.960 --> 1:25:06.879 pack as well. And yeah, I would stick with the highphens. 1:25:07.400 --> 1:25:13.200 The other thing I have in here is a like 1:25:13.200 --> 1:25:14.000 a space blanket. 1:25:15.600 --> 1:25:17.040 Just interesting. 1:25:17.200 --> 1:25:19.400 Yeah, So when you are losing a lot of blood, 1:25:19.400 --> 1:25:22.000 you get very cold, and so you do want to 1:25:22.080 --> 1:25:25.120 keep that treasure, you do want to keep that casualty warm. 1:25:25.360 --> 1:25:27.280 This isn't going to really be enough on its own, 1:25:27.400 --> 1:25:30.280 quite honestly, like you need to probably actively heat someone, 1:25:30.320 --> 1:25:32.240 but it's better than nothing, and it's again. 1:25:32.200 --> 1:25:32.960 It's very small. 1:25:34.640 --> 1:25:36.400 Again, I've given tons of these out in various different 1:25:36.400 --> 1:25:40.680 situations that weren't like a casualty situation, so that a 1:25:40.760 --> 1:25:42.240 nice thing to have. You don't generally want to be 1:25:42.240 --> 1:25:43.720 packing ship just because it's a nice thing to have. 1:25:43.800 --> 1:25:47.479 And we'll get onto that. But this again is very small. 1:25:47.920 --> 1:25:49.840 There's almost always face for it, so I include that. 1:25:50.680 --> 1:25:52.360 I also have a little source of light, like a 1:25:52.360 --> 1:25:58.679 little torch flashlight for American listeners nice a s h. 1:25:58.920 --> 1:26:03.240 And that is there for being able to see things, 1:26:03.800 --> 1:26:07.679 which is very handy actually when you're trying to help 1:26:07.720 --> 1:26:12.160 someone who is bleeding. Another thing to include would be gloves. 1:26:13.240 --> 1:26:15.080 I have my gloves somewhere else on this belt, so 1:26:15.080 --> 1:26:21.280 they're not here, but medical gloves, right, And again you'll 1:26:21.280 --> 1:26:23.200 probably learn this in your course. But like a lot 1:26:23.200 --> 1:26:24.720 of people like to buy black ones, I don't know 1:26:24.760 --> 1:26:28.680 why cops wear black ones all the time, right, just 1:26:28.720 --> 1:26:30.840 makes it a little more difficult if you're doing a 1:26:30.880 --> 1:26:33.280 blood sweep, which is a thing you'll learn about in 1:26:33.280 --> 1:26:36.840 your class, so that it's actually quite hard to see, 1:26:36.880 --> 1:26:42.360 like blood on black, especially in perfect yeah, so blue 1:26:42.439 --> 1:26:45.640 tan something like that is kind of preferable. 1:26:46.880 --> 1:26:49.000 I do have those in the first age. I think good. 1:26:49.080 --> 1:26:49.320 Nice. 1:26:49.560 --> 1:26:51.040 Yeah, if you want to have those somewhere ready to go, 1:26:51.080 --> 1:26:52.560 I think they're on the front of this bag. You 1:26:52.560 --> 1:26:56.200 could slap those on. Just you know, you don't know 1:26:56.240 --> 1:26:57.840 where other people have been, what they've been up to you, 1:26:58.439 --> 1:27:00.280 and it doesn't matter what, you still want to help them. 1:27:00.320 --> 1:27:01.800 So you just want to just want to take care 1:27:01.840 --> 1:27:04.920 of yourself there. And so though they're honestly the main 1:27:04.920 --> 1:27:06.600 things I have in there, what I don't have in 1:27:06.640 --> 1:27:10.000 here is equally important. Right, I do not have tampons 1:27:10.000 --> 1:27:11.920 in here. The reason I do not have tampons in 1:27:11.920 --> 1:27:13.519 here as well, it's too far. I'm not a person 1:27:13.520 --> 1:27:16.439 who menitrates, and even if I was, I wouldn't have 1:27:16.560 --> 1:27:19.439 my first aid kit. And technically because they are not 1:27:19.720 --> 1:27:23.360 very good at but they're terrible at dealing with like 1:27:23.520 --> 1:27:26.400 massive bleeding, right, massive hemorrhage. That's not what they're for 1:27:28.080 --> 1:27:31.439 if people are familiar with what they are designed for. 1:27:31.600 --> 1:27:34.599 Like the volume of blood is not the same as 1:27:34.640 --> 1:27:39.519 the volume you will see from terial bleed. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 1:27:39.600 --> 1:27:42.599 believe me again, Like I've had the misfortune to see 1:27:42.600 --> 1:27:45.000 people die from blood loss, and like that is a 1:27:45.040 --> 1:27:48.200 lot of blood more and it's coming out fast, and 1:27:48.200 --> 1:27:50.840 you ain't stopping it with a tampon. It just kind 1:27:50.880 --> 1:27:54.599 of stopping someone who is better equipped from helping. So 1:27:54.840 --> 1:27:56.800 if you want to carry tampons and you want to 1:27:56.800 --> 1:27:59.160 have them available in case someone needs them, that is great, 1:27:59.240 --> 1:28:01.360 that's very kind. If you put them in your car, 1:28:01.400 --> 1:28:03.200 put them in your in your bag that you go 1:28:03.320 --> 1:28:07.840 around with, please, but don't confuse them with a trauma 1:28:07.960 --> 1:28:13.680 dressing because they are different things. Don't plan to improvise 1:28:13.880 --> 1:28:18.840 anything what broadly right, Like, it's just when we have 1:28:19.200 --> 1:28:22.720 excellent tools available that designed for this job, just use them. 1:28:22.760 --> 1:28:24.960 And it's fine not to be able to get all 1:28:25.000 --> 1:28:27.479 this stuff at once, Right, you could spring for the 1:28:27.600 --> 1:28:29.360 chess seals first and then save with a bit of 1:28:29.360 --> 1:28:33.479 money get the tornic k. That's fine, But like, yes, 1:28:33.520 --> 1:28:35.880 can you can you improvise a chess seal with some 1:28:36.040 --> 1:28:39.559 duct tape and a credit card or a CRISP packet 1:28:39.720 --> 1:28:43.000 in theory? Sure, but like these are like twelve bucks, 1:28:43.360 --> 1:28:45.320 so let's just let's just let's just get them if 1:28:45.360 --> 1:28:49.920 we can and have people improvised tornic k successfully with cravats? Yes, 1:28:51.040 --> 1:28:53.120 have those failed and resulted in loss of life? 1:28:53.240 --> 1:28:53.400 You know? 1:28:53.520 --> 1:28:56.960 Yes? Like in some cases. Your belt isn't a torny 1:28:57.040 --> 1:28:58.800 k right, it doesn't have a windless it's not going 1:28:58.880 --> 1:29:01.719 to get tight enough. It might snap. 1:29:02.320 --> 1:29:05.040 Have people used successfully, Yes, Is there a twenty three 1:29:05.080 --> 1:29:06.960 dollar thing which works much more effectively? 1:29:07.080 --> 1:29:07.280 Yes? 1:29:08.600 --> 1:29:12.599 And it's a serious thing. It's fucking it's very real. 1:29:12.840 --> 1:29:17.920 Like again speaking from experience, like this shit will affect 1:29:17.960 --> 1:29:19.960 you deeply, and you want to know that you did 1:29:20.000 --> 1:29:22.080 the best you could. So and if you can't afford 1:29:22.080 --> 1:29:24.200 any of this stuff, that's totally fine, Like just take 1:29:24.200 --> 1:29:25.599 your time and acquire it. 1:29:27.600 --> 1:29:29.759 I think an important thing to add at this point 1:29:29.920 --> 1:29:34.640 is to you know, listeners of our show are I 1:29:34.640 --> 1:29:39.800 think overly familiar with the way that we have kind 1:29:39.840 --> 1:29:43.599 of introduce the idea of mutual aid, like the point 1:29:43.640 --> 1:29:45.439 of mutual aid, And what I mean by that is 1:29:45.479 --> 1:29:48.880 that you are not a one person revolutionary Like the 1:29:48.920 --> 1:29:52.439 whole idea is community effort. And so especially with something 1:29:52.479 --> 1:29:54.160 like this, this is like a kind of a two 1:29:54.200 --> 1:29:56.920 part point. Especially with something like this, consider that you 1:29:57.000 --> 1:29:59.559 are part of a community that can help people overall. 1:30:00.000 --> 1:30:02.360 Maybe it is not you the individual listening to this 1:30:02.400 --> 1:30:04.400 episode right now that is like I'm going to go 1:30:04.479 --> 1:30:07.200 invest in all of these things because I will be 1:30:07.240 --> 1:30:10.160 the first aid person. Maybe there's someone you know who's 1:30:10.280 --> 1:30:12.680 already interested in this, and this is information that you 1:30:12.680 --> 1:30:14.720 can pass on to them should they be wanting to 1:30:14.760 --> 1:30:17.559 invest in equipment like this. And another thing to think 1:30:17.600 --> 1:30:21.240 about in terms of why James is offering specific items 1:30:21.640 --> 1:30:24.679 is because think about a hobby that you like doing, 1:30:24.960 --> 1:30:28.240 Think about anything that you like doing a lot. You 1:30:28.280 --> 1:30:32.479 know you don't usually buy the cheapest version of the thing. 1:30:33.080 --> 1:30:36.600 And now this is not me, you know, necessarily advocating 1:30:36.640 --> 1:30:40.880 for overspending or buying expensive things. You just want to 1:30:40.880 --> 1:30:44.040 buy stuff that lasts and that works well and that 1:30:44.120 --> 1:30:48.360 does the job because you know overall that stuff will 1:30:48.439 --> 1:30:52.000 last longer than anything that is cheaper in the immediate moment. 1:30:52.240 --> 1:30:54.080 I think people can say the same thing about things 1:30:54.120 --> 1:30:58.280 like work boots, about tools, about anything that to you 1:30:58.439 --> 1:31:00.800 is worth investing your time in. So if this is 1:31:00.840 --> 1:31:05.240 something that you value, if being a first responder or 1:31:05.280 --> 1:31:07.680 being that person who's there, if taking a stop the 1:31:07.680 --> 1:31:10.280 bleed course is something that's important to you, consider that 1:31:10.320 --> 1:31:13.360 these things are more than just like you know, good 1:31:13.439 --> 1:31:16.120 things to have on hand. They're an investment in your 1:31:16.240 --> 1:31:20.200 future and your interests. So just something to consider that, like, 1:31:20.320 --> 1:31:24.000 while some of these things may I mean, nothing sounds 1:31:24.080 --> 1:31:26.200 outrageously expensive that you've said so far. I think the 1:31:26.240 --> 1:31:28.200 most expensive thing that you talked about was thirty five 1:31:28.240 --> 1:31:30.200 dollars in that range. 1:31:30.360 --> 1:31:32.200 Yeah, you can spend a lot on the pouch, but 1:31:32.520 --> 1:31:36.839 be sure you shouldn't. Sure like, don't buy some fancy 1:31:36.880 --> 1:31:41.439 hype beasts Instagram gung Guy pouch and right exactly, Yeah, 1:31:41.600 --> 1:31:43.880 I think, Yeah, the Selock scores is probably much expensive. 1:31:43.920 --> 1:31:46.640 Think I've spoken about on the point of durability, I 1:31:46.680 --> 1:31:49.840 do want to say I've seen people practicing with their 1:31:49.880 --> 1:31:52.559 torny keys, and I would suggest getting another one to 1:31:52.600 --> 1:31:53.120 practice with. 1:31:53.560 --> 1:31:54.360 Totally makes sense. 1:31:54.720 --> 1:31:57.000 So North America, Mescu breaks a blue one. It's exactly 1:31:57.000 --> 1:31:59.240 the same. It works just the same. If you need 1:31:59.240 --> 1:32:01.759 to use it, you can over time those things fatigue, 1:32:01.800 --> 1:32:05.320 and that they're not designed for multiple uses. Have they 1:32:05.360 --> 1:32:06.519 been used multiple times? 1:32:06.640 --> 1:32:09.280 Yes? Do people wash them and wash the blood of 1:32:09.280 --> 1:32:11.559 them and use them again? Yes? It is again like 1:32:12.479 --> 1:32:15.639 we shouldn't plan for a suboptimal setting and what's already 1:32:15.640 --> 1:32:18.080 going to be a pretty fucking suboptimal moment. And talking 1:32:18.080 --> 1:32:21.880 of suboptimal stuff, Daniel, we have to start, Yeah, to 1:32:22.800 --> 1:32:25.519 talk about Ronald Reagan. So that's my bad. I should 1:32:25.520 --> 1:32:27.160 have been the one being like Jason to take an 1:32:27.160 --> 1:32:27.559 AD break. 1:32:28.080 --> 1:32:28.280 Yeah. 1:32:28.760 --> 1:32:31.320 Here, I am a seasoned professional. We're back. 1:32:32.000 --> 1:32:33.880 We've returned from my AD break. So I wanted to 1:32:33.920 --> 1:32:37.160 talk about resources for training because I think those are 1:32:37.240 --> 1:32:38.720 very important, right, and that is where you're going to 1:32:38.760 --> 1:32:42.280 learn stuff. I am not telling you how to do this. 1:32:44.040 --> 1:32:46.680 I would suggest hitting up Stop the Bleed. I think 1:32:46.680 --> 1:32:49.040 it's stopped bleed dot org and Stop the Bid training 1:32:49.080 --> 1:32:51.519 in my area. There's a website that will link in 1:32:51.520 --> 1:32:53.160 the description. Are's part of that website where you can 1:32:53.160 --> 1:32:56.120 put in your zip code and find trainings. And then 1:32:56.160 --> 1:32:59.840 if I think about where I've got my training, it's 1:33:00.160 --> 1:33:04.439 through an organization called NOLS National Outdoor Leadership School. So 1:33:04.960 --> 1:33:07.439 once you get past Stop the Bleed, you've got a 1:33:07.479 --> 1:33:11.160 couple of Like most community colleges will have an EMTB 1:33:11.400 --> 1:33:15.519 course empt basic. That's quite a commitment of your time, 1:33:15.520 --> 1:33:17.160 but you can learn a lot of very important things. 1:33:17.720 --> 1:33:19.200 It can be a career for you if you want 1:33:19.240 --> 1:33:22.000 it to be. Certainly, it can be an adjunct to 1:33:22.040 --> 1:33:25.400 other careers you want to do. If you want to 1:33:25.880 --> 1:33:27.839 work in the outdoors. If you can do an EMT 1:33:28.000 --> 1:33:30.960 B and then do a wilderness EMT, that opens up 1:33:30.960 --> 1:33:35.400 a whole range of expeditions to you. So community college 1:33:35.400 --> 1:33:37.760 should be free. Most of those courses are free or 1:33:37.800 --> 1:33:40.720 very affordable, depending on where you are. Knowles courses are 1:33:40.760 --> 1:33:45.240 not free, nor are they very affordable. They are very expensive, 1:33:45.240 --> 1:33:47.439 but they are very good you look or ARII probably 1:33:47.439 --> 1:33:50.200 puts them on. Knowles does have scholarships for people who 1:33:50.240 --> 1:33:52.080 are more marginalized from the outdoors, or they did last 1:33:52.120 --> 1:33:55.360 time I spoke to them, so those might be worth 1:33:55.439 --> 1:33:59.519 checking out. And then there are apps which will give 1:33:59.560 --> 1:34:02.320 you resource since resources are not the same as training, 1:34:02.560 --> 1:34:05.519 right like training is knowing what to do, it's not. 1:34:05.800 --> 1:34:07.920 Sometimes it's knowing where to look. But in situations like this, 1:34:08.080 --> 1:34:10.640 like you don't want to be on your phone for 1:34:10.760 --> 1:34:13.920 more advanced stuff, for stuff where you know you're you're 1:34:13.960 --> 1:34:16.880 you're doing care in the field right if you're doing 1:34:17.040 --> 1:34:20.439 or you know, wilderness first responder. If you're trying to 1:34:20.439 --> 1:34:23.599 think times that I've done stuff with that. One time 1:34:23.640 --> 1:34:25.479 I was climbing up a mountain and the big old 1:34:25.560 --> 1:34:28.519 rock fell on me. I had to split my leg, 1:34:28.600 --> 1:34:31.360 and oh, my god, what bleeding like, yeah, yeah, it's 1:34:31.360 --> 1:34:36.000 good times. Uh don't, yeah, don't don't watch out for 1:34:36.080 --> 1:34:37.240 rock Fall audience. 1:34:37.320 --> 1:34:39.880 And I just want to throw something out there. Every 1:34:40.240 --> 1:34:44.160 single time James tells us any story about his life, 1:34:44.280 --> 1:34:50.799 it is just this, this wonderfully vivid, like colorful story 1:34:50.920 --> 1:34:53.479 about something that has happened to him, or an experience 1:34:53.479 --> 1:34:55.400 that he's had, or a profession that he's had. That 1:34:55.560 --> 1:35:00.559 just adds to the tone of interesting facts about James. 1:35:00.640 --> 1:35:04.400 So if you I don't know, I highly recommend used 1:35:04.400 --> 1:35:06.760 in every single episode that James isn't because you have 1:35:06.840 --> 1:35:10.120 lived a fascinating life and that is merely a split 1:35:10.200 --> 1:35:10.720 second of it. 1:35:10.800 --> 1:35:11.479 That's wild. 1:35:11.680 --> 1:35:14.720 I'm glad you're okay, Yeah, I'm fine, But yeah, you know, 1:35:14.760 --> 1:35:19.280 clearly here we are with that, right, Like, especially in 1:35:19.280 --> 1:35:21.559 wilderness meander, then there's an emphasis on using what you 1:35:21.560 --> 1:35:24.599 already have, and because you can't bring everything into the wilderness, right, 1:35:24.640 --> 1:35:25.599 So that's where I'm saying. 1:35:25.600 --> 1:35:27.519 Knowledge doesn't wear anything. It doesn't take up any space 1:35:27.560 --> 1:35:30.839 in your pack. So you can use an air mattress 1:35:30.880 --> 1:35:34.519 pretty well to splint a leg injury. You can use 1:35:34.520 --> 1:35:36.680 one of those foam for air mattresses. A guy that 1:35:36.720 --> 1:35:39.240 you sleep on. Yeah, yeah, yeah, So you can kind 1:35:39.240 --> 1:35:43.240 of fandangle those up around a leg. You can use 1:35:43.280 --> 1:35:46.599 a therm arrest or similar. Other products are available foam 1:35:46.600 --> 1:35:51.799 sleeping mattress. You can use a hiking pole, right, tent pole. 1:35:52.240 --> 1:35:53.840 Tentpoles are kind of nice because you can break them 1:35:53.840 --> 1:35:56.680 down into sections to get the right length, and then 1:35:56.720 --> 1:35:59.479 all you're using from your first aid kit is your 1:36:00.280 --> 1:36:03.360 it's your tape, right or I like ski straps. I 1:36:03.360 --> 1:36:05.880 attach everything in my life. It's important to me with 1:36:05.960 --> 1:36:09.760 ski straps. So I love a ski strap and I 1:36:09.760 --> 1:36:12.280 had some ski straps, and you can just splin that 1:36:12.280 --> 1:36:13.840 bad boy with a couple of ski traps, a couple 1:36:13.840 --> 1:36:16.840 of tent poles back of the net. You're not having 1:36:16.840 --> 1:36:19.240 a great day at that point. This is not the 1:36:19.320 --> 1:36:21.559 kind of medical care you'd hope for in a professional setting. 1:36:21.600 --> 1:36:23.640 But you know, if you've got that and you've got 1:36:23.640 --> 1:36:26.080 a crash, you you can get yourself to a higher 1:36:26.120 --> 1:36:30.000 degree of care. So when we're doing stuff like that, 1:36:30.520 --> 1:36:34.400 I believe NOLES has a Wilderness Medicine app. There's Deployed Medicine, 1:36:34.479 --> 1:36:37.880 which is a US military resource for field care, which 1:36:38.280 --> 1:36:40.280 can help to remind you of stuff that you've already 1:36:40.280 --> 1:36:41.840 trained on. It's not going to teach you to do 1:36:41.880 --> 1:36:43.880 stuff you shouldn't. Just read about it on there and 1:36:44.000 --> 1:36:47.280 use it. And there's a new one called goes Ges 1:36:47.400 --> 1:36:51.360 which literally launched like this week goes Health, which it's 1:36:51.400 --> 1:36:53.519 offline to It gives an offline data base of wilderness 1:36:53.560 --> 1:36:56.839 medicine and it helps you kind of with diagnostic queues 1:36:56.880 --> 1:37:01.000 of stuff. So when you do your wilderness first responder, 1:37:01.000 --> 1:37:02.920 at least when I did it, someone must have had 1:37:02.960 --> 1:37:05.200 an ectopic pregnancy and had a very bad outcome, because 1:37:05.200 --> 1:37:07.360 they'll they'll ask you with all these questions like what 1:37:07.360 --> 1:37:09.920 could this be? What could this be? And like they 1:37:10.000 --> 1:37:11.200 want you to be able to know what any topic 1:37:11.240 --> 1:37:13.320 pregnancy is so like. But there's like a sort of 1:37:13.439 --> 1:37:15.680 flow chart that you can follow right to help you 1:37:15.720 --> 1:37:17.679 be like what is this? Is it appendicitis? What's going 1:37:17.720 --> 1:37:18.040 on here? 1:37:19.400 --> 1:37:21.080 So when? 1:37:21.360 --> 1:37:24.080 Because you probably won't remember every certainly if you take 1:37:24.080 --> 1:37:25.960 a woof of course, and then two years later you 1:37:26.000 --> 1:37:29.040 know you have before you recertified, like something happens, a 1:37:29.040 --> 1:37:30.559 lot could happen in two years, you won't have remembered 1:37:30.600 --> 1:37:32.840 everything that you learned in your course right, So some 1:37:32.920 --> 1:37:37.599 of those apps are useful, but the most important thing 1:37:37.640 --> 1:37:39.439 this thing where you will learn to use all of 1:37:39.479 --> 1:37:41.639 the items in this I fact is stopped the bleed 1:37:42.120 --> 1:37:46.920 and it is free, and that is where everyone should start. 1:37:47.360 --> 1:37:48.840 They're not going to teach you how to use all 1:37:48.840 --> 1:37:51.160 the things. So if we bust open the bag that 1:37:51.200 --> 1:37:57.320 you got Daniel quickly, it's overstuffed. There's a lot of 1:37:57.320 --> 1:37:59.400 things in there. Yeah, wait, too many things. 1:38:00.120 --> 1:38:02.800 Mean literally, like as there is a there is a 1:38:02.960 --> 1:38:08.320 pouch of emergency drinking water. There is there is a 1:38:08.760 --> 1:38:11.040 which might call it a bright stick, like a little 1:38:11.240 --> 1:38:16.360 light stick. There is about one hundred different kinds of 1:38:16.840 --> 1:38:19.040 uh which MC call it. Like look at this literal 1:38:19.200 --> 1:38:22.520 just like pile of band aids, just lit like hundreds 1:38:22.560 --> 1:38:27.120 of band aids and alcohol wipes. And oh there's a whistle. 1:38:28.120 --> 1:38:29.960 A whistle is should you get lost in the wilderness. 1:38:30.720 --> 1:38:35.720 This is a very handy in urban or rural dishausters. 1:38:35.760 --> 1:38:37.760 But for first at not for this. 1:38:37.800 --> 1:38:39.960 I don't think any of this stuff is necessarily bad. 1:38:40.080 --> 1:38:43.160 It's just there's just way too much. There's gauze pads, 1:38:43.200 --> 1:38:47.280 there is this a b D pad, sterile extra absorbent pad, yep. 1:38:47.800 --> 1:38:49.600 That you know, I don't think is going to do 1:38:49.680 --> 1:38:51.559 what it needs to do. But there's a shit ton 1:38:51.600 --> 1:38:54.559 of gauze in here, and there are look at and 1:38:54.640 --> 1:38:57.080 you want to talk about things to cut open. You're 1:38:57.080 --> 1:39:01.400 talking about clothing scissors. Uh, these little guys I don't 1:39:01.400 --> 1:39:04.080 think are going to do that. No, they're for your 1:39:04.160 --> 1:39:08.799 tape and stuff exactly, trimming tape. There's also tweezers in here. Really, 1:39:08.840 --> 1:39:11.080 this feels like for people who are in the wilderness 1:39:11.080 --> 1:39:11.799 and they get a splinter. 1:39:12.560 --> 1:39:15.280 Yeah, yeah, and that stuff super handy to having your 1:39:15.280 --> 1:39:18.840 truck or your car or you're like, motorcycle guys are 1:39:18.880 --> 1:39:20.080 already pretty good. 1:39:21.439 --> 1:39:21.679 Yes. 1:39:21.920 --> 1:39:25.519 Yeah, it's not gonna immediately stop you from dying from 1:39:25.600 --> 1:39:27.439 loss of blood, which is what we're concerned with. That 1:39:27.960 --> 1:39:29.840 if you do ride a motorcycle, you really want to 1:39:29.880 --> 1:39:33.519 fucking have one. Like I ride a bicycle, and I 1:39:33.560 --> 1:39:37.280 have seen some motor vehicle accidents and I'm just gonna say, 1:39:37.320 --> 1:39:39.240 motorcycle folks want to have that. Someone else can grab 1:39:39.240 --> 1:39:40.559 it off your motobi. I can use it if you've 1:39:40.600 --> 1:39:46.439 hurt yourself, but sure, I've seen that happen before. So yeah, 1:39:46.439 --> 1:39:48.400 that stuff is all very handy. It's all very nice. 1:39:48.400 --> 1:39:50.519 It can make you feel better, right, Like there's I 1:39:50.680 --> 1:39:54.920 imagine there's a ton of viberprofen and paracetamol and benadryl 1:39:55.800 --> 1:39:58.760 uh all that stuff is great. That stuffs super handy, right. 1:39:58.800 --> 1:40:01.240 And another thing I would add is some of that 1:40:01.280 --> 1:40:04.360 stuff can be life saving if you have an allergy, right, 1:40:04.400 --> 1:40:07.280 and you need to take something for that, Yeah, put 1:40:07.280 --> 1:40:09.599 that in your first aid kit because that's particular to you. 1:40:09.920 --> 1:40:10.040 Right. 1:40:10.080 --> 1:40:13.040 And that's if you need an EpiPen, then have your 1:40:13.040 --> 1:40:16.439 EpiPen of course, right, you know, I'm sure you do. Anyway, 1:40:16.479 --> 1:40:18.759 if you have diabetes, have your glucagarn and some sugar. 1:40:20.120 --> 1:40:23.439 All of that stuff is of course important. But in 1:40:23.520 --> 1:40:26.920 terms of like dealing with what we perceive to be 1:40:27.080 --> 1:40:32.120 an increased risk of like homophobic violence, which normally manifests 1:40:32.120 --> 1:40:35.200 itself as people getting shot in this country, then the 1:40:35.800 --> 1:40:38.880 little scissors and the ABD pad the band aids aren't 1:40:38.880 --> 1:40:40.760 what we need and they're just going to get in 1:40:40.800 --> 1:40:43.519 the way. So even if you have those, great keep 1:40:43.600 --> 1:40:47.000 them in the car. I gave tons of people band 1:40:47.040 --> 1:40:49.559 aids because they got blisters in twenty twenty, right, Because 1:40:50.160 --> 1:40:53.320 people are not familiar with walking that far. Their boots sucked. 1:40:53.439 --> 1:40:56.439 People decided to wear heavy boots because they're worried. All 1:40:56.560 --> 1:40:59.599 understandable things. It's a lot of band aids, a load 1:40:59.640 --> 1:41:03.000 of horse you plasters or you know, like second skin. Great, 1:41:03.120 --> 1:41:05.639 I'm happy to give you one of those things. I'll 1:41:05.680 --> 1:41:07.559 keep it in a different pocket though, right So, so 1:41:07.600 --> 1:41:10.280 I'm not you know, sorting past the blister plasters if 1:41:10.280 --> 1:41:14.519 someone's been shot. And that's a good tip regardless of 1:41:14.520 --> 1:41:17.000 what you're doing, what you're even if you're doing, you know, 1:41:17.000 --> 1:41:19.160 you're bringing more stuff and more people. It's great aspirin, 1:41:19.320 --> 1:41:22.240 I bet people need that sometimes, or iberprofione if their 1:41:22.320 --> 1:41:25.599 knees hurting from walking a lot, great, pound that shit. 1:41:25.720 --> 1:41:28.639 But like, don't that's not what we want. We don't 1:41:28.640 --> 1:41:31.760 want to be administering medicines really, certainly if we're not 1:41:31.840 --> 1:41:34.960 trying to do so after a trauma thing, because some 1:41:35.000 --> 1:41:38.800 of they pay medicines we might be taking might inhibit 1:41:38.840 --> 1:41:40.840 blood clotting, right, So we don't want to be doing 1:41:40.920 --> 1:41:43.599 that before that person goes on too a higher standard care. 1:41:43.600 --> 1:41:45.960 It's going to fucking suck for them. But like you're 1:41:46.600 --> 1:41:49.360 the best you can do is stop their person dying 1:41:49.439 --> 1:41:51.360 or help someone else who's qualified to do that by 1:41:51.400 --> 1:41:54.360 just saying, hey, I have this stuff and it's all 1:41:54.360 --> 1:41:58.760 pretty compact, you know, Like I said, it's it's you know, 1:41:58.800 --> 1:42:01.559 the size of a paperback, but decent sized paperback books 1:42:01.600 --> 1:42:06.840 and ththing like that, and having it may or may 1:42:06.840 --> 1:42:09.080 not be hopefully right. You just buy this thing and 1:42:09.120 --> 1:42:12.160 it sits around for a while, and eventually, if you've 1:42:12.160 --> 1:42:14.760 been having the tornquair in the sun for years and years, 1:42:14.760 --> 1:42:16.599 you've want to replace it. The UV can cause them 1:42:16.600 --> 1:42:20.120 to decay. You can just put them inside a pouch. 1:42:20.520 --> 1:42:22.760 I've made all kinds of pouches for them. You can 1:42:22.800 --> 1:42:24.360 buy an expensive one on the internet, or you can 1:42:24.400 --> 1:42:26.679 just use a piece so a piece of nylon, which 1:42:26.680 --> 1:42:29.920 is what I do, two rubber bands and put it 1:42:29.920 --> 1:42:35.080 inside your waistband of your thing. Many many such solutions exist. 1:42:35.120 --> 1:42:37.439 But yeah, I would encourage everyone. I think I've said 1:42:37.439 --> 1:42:40.519 it's about twenty eight times to get training and not 1:42:40.760 --> 1:42:44.519 just to just go and do this. If you can't 1:42:44.560 --> 1:42:46.240 access that training straight away and you want to get 1:42:46.240 --> 1:42:48.479 the stuff where you look for training, that's fine. Just 1:42:48.479 --> 1:42:50.240 don't be doing stuff you don't know how to do, 1:42:50.880 --> 1:42:54.120 because you know someone might confuse that for someone who 1:42:54.160 --> 1:42:56.120 is qualified and is helping. And then if you don't 1:42:56.120 --> 1:42:58.080 know what you're doing and you make a mistake, and 1:42:58.720 --> 1:43:01.559 that that could be worse someone. If someone comes in 1:43:01.600 --> 1:43:04.200 and they're doing triage right, they're saying, who do we 1:43:04.240 --> 1:43:06.559 need to treat now? Who do we need to treat later? 1:43:06.920 --> 1:43:10.360 Who can't we help then? And they see you doing that, Okay, 1:43:10.360 --> 1:43:12.840 that person's covered that. You want to be sure that 1:43:12.880 --> 1:43:16.920 you're covering what you're doing. So yeah, just make sure 1:43:16.920 --> 1:43:18.960 you get the training. We're not trying to scare you 1:43:19.000 --> 1:43:22.479 into not going to things. Please don't feel afraid. I 1:43:22.479 --> 1:43:24.360 know it's very easy to feel afraid. That's, of course 1:43:24.840 --> 1:43:28.800 the goal of you know, most of these people their 1:43:28.800 --> 1:43:30.639 ass is welded to their gaming chair and they will 1:43:30.640 --> 1:43:32.320 never actually come into the streets and hurt you. They 1:43:32.360 --> 1:43:37.599 just stay stuff on Twitter dot com and like, you're fine. 1:43:38.320 --> 1:43:42.160 But it's very reasonable to be prudent. And certainly this 1:43:42.240 --> 1:43:43.960 is stuff I have in my TK, I have it 1:43:44.000 --> 1:43:45.360 in my bag, I have it in most places I go, 1:43:45.920 --> 1:43:48.320 and you know, you get used to it. It's fine, 1:43:48.439 --> 1:43:50.400 and take it a course. And I'm on work trips 1:43:50.400 --> 1:43:52.280 and I try and leave lots of it with my 1:43:52.320 --> 1:43:55.320 colleagues who can't access it so easily in other countries. 1:43:55.880 --> 1:44:01.599 So yeah, I hope that's helpful for people's peace. Yes, yeah, yeah, 1:44:01.640 --> 1:44:06.439 it is it. It's it's look, I guess just to 1:44:06.479 --> 1:44:10.920 wrap up, like you are not. I don't watch television really, 1:44:12.000 --> 1:44:14.639 Hugh Laurie, what's Hugh Lurry's deal house? 1:44:15.360 --> 1:44:16.400 Oh house? Yeah? 1:44:16.640 --> 1:44:19.080 Or like some other super doctor, right, Like you can't 1:44:19.120 --> 1:44:22.600 heal everyone. Bad things happen, but there's just peace of 1:44:22.600 --> 1:44:24.240 mind and trying to do your best to help everyone. 1:44:24.720 --> 1:44:29.400 And that's relative accessible and not too expensive. I think 1:44:29.439 --> 1:44:31.479 there's an IPAC fund which gives youse away for free 1:44:31.479 --> 1:44:33.800 as well, so cool. That's where I'm looking in too. 1:44:34.600 --> 1:44:37.040 If that's if someone can find that, they can send 1:44:37.080 --> 1:44:39.599 it to me and I will post it. But yeah, 1:44:39.760 --> 1:44:42.040 it's a peace of mind and it's it's not too 1:44:42.080 --> 1:44:43.720 hard to get that training. So go out there and 1:44:43.760 --> 1:44:46.479 do that wonderful do it with someone you love, do it, 1:44:46.520 --> 1:44:48.680 do it for fun, do it with your friend, make 1:44:48.720 --> 1:44:50.000 a god a date. 1:44:50.280 --> 1:44:54.400 Yeah, find someone on yeah, yeah, do it. Let us 1:44:54.400 --> 1:44:55.160 know how that goes. 1:44:56.000 --> 1:44:57.960 Hey, what's your favorite color? So what are you doing 1:44:58.000 --> 1:45:00.479 this weekend? Wanted to a stop the bleed course. I 1:45:00.479 --> 1:45:01.320 think that's very. 1:45:01.160 --> 1:45:09.400 Sexy into that exactly. Yeah, please don't DM me with 1:45:09.520 --> 1:45:12.800 potential still please no, no, do not m James, don't 1:45:12.840 --> 1:45:18.559 do it. But yeah, hopefully that helps people. Wonderful well, James, 1:45:18.920 --> 1:45:20.880 thank you so much for this awesome information. It's been 1:45:20.920 --> 1:45:25.240 an absolute pleasure being on the show with you. And 1:45:25.880 --> 1:45:28.360 we'll post links in the chat or post sorry, post 1:45:28.360 --> 1:45:33.120 link the chat that we have exactly that that's that's 1:45:33.120 --> 1:45:35.760 my twitch ship coming through. I will post links in 1:45:35.840 --> 1:45:40.240 the description of the episode, and yeah, I look forward 1:45:40.240 --> 1:45:42.479 to doing this again with you. Yeah, Daniel, talking of 1:45:42.520 --> 1:45:44.040 your twitch ship, where can people find you? 1:45:44.160 --> 1:45:44.400 Twitch? 1:45:44.400 --> 1:45:46.320 Shit, They don't need to find me anywhere, but if 1:45:46.320 --> 1:45:49.439 you want to find me, you can TV slash Twitch 1:45:49.439 --> 1:45:53.120 dot tv slash DJ Underscore Daniel d A n L. 1:45:53.360 --> 1:45:55.960 And if you want to come ask me what Robert 1:45:56.000 --> 1:45:58.599 smells like. I will not ban you, but I will 1:45:58.640 --> 1:46:00.640 time you out for ten minutes, so you know, just 1:46:00.720 --> 1:46:02.920 you know, know that I'm happy to have whoever wants 1:46:02.920 --> 1:46:06.000 to come watch the watch the twitch stream, but I'm 1:46:06.040 --> 1:46:08.800 not going to answer any weird questions about my coworkers. 1:46:09.520 --> 1:46:14.880 As you should be. Thank you Daniel, thank you James 1:46:30.160 --> 1:46:34.719 or Government. It's it could happen here a podcast where 1:46:34.920 --> 1:46:37.520 by attempt to do a British accent. It's been overwritten 1:46:37.560 --> 1:46:40.639 by Robert's Boston accent because I can't get it out 1:46:40.680 --> 1:46:47.479 of my head. This is the podcast where retreat Britain 1:46:47.520 --> 1:46:50.639 with the level of respect that it deserves. You're getting 1:46:50.680 --> 1:46:52.920 You're getting this ship right now, because the entire rest 1:46:52.960 --> 1:46:55.080 of this episode is going to be unbelievably depressing. 1:46:55.840 --> 1:46:59.160 Oh wow, maah, that's such a good accent. I believe 1:46:59.200 --> 1:47:01.160 you're one of my authentic countrymen. 1:47:01.920 --> 1:47:02.120 Wow. 1:47:02.400 --> 1:47:05.080 So good to chat to another fellow brit. 1:47:07.960 --> 1:47:10.840 With me. With Me is Sophie from Mars, who does 1:47:10.960 --> 1:47:13.200 many things, including. 1:47:14.479 --> 1:47:20.160 Things impressions of Americans, doing impressions of British people, one 1:47:20.240 --> 1:47:21.720 of my favorite impressions to do. 1:47:23.920 --> 1:47:28.120 Oh god, you know this is being recorded, and this 1:47:28.200 --> 1:47:31.200 is being recorded at like a Geneva convention, crime time 1:47:31.600 --> 1:47:35.320 for podcasts. So it's it's going great, it's going great. 1:47:35.360 --> 1:47:37.360 I have I've consumed so much caffeine that I have 1:47:37.400 --> 1:47:41.200 seen the face of God. Yeah, but Sophie, welcome to 1:47:41.240 --> 1:47:45.800 the show. And yeah, I wish it was for something 1:47:45.840 --> 1:47:46.879 that was not this bullshit. 1:47:47.040 --> 1:47:48.960 But yeah, this is yeah pretty grim. 1:47:49.760 --> 1:47:55.240 Yeah, so okay, so what what what specifically is this bullshit? Right? Yeah, 1:47:55.320 --> 1:47:57.920 the government of the United Kingdom, despite his reputation is 1:47:58.000 --> 1:48:01.240 turf Isoland, has been kind of falling behind us in 1:48:01.360 --> 1:48:04.680 terms of like actual ability to use the state to 1:48:04.720 --> 1:48:09.320 discriminate and get trans people killed. And having seen this, 1:48:09.479 --> 1:48:15.880 reci Sunac was like, oh shit, hold on and has 1:48:15.960 --> 1:48:20.680 now compelled the British state to take a series of 1:48:20.680 --> 1:48:23.680 steps that we would include like doing mandatory outing of 1:48:23.760 --> 1:48:25.599 trans kids to their parents and schools. 1:48:25.680 --> 1:48:30.240 Yeah. Well, it's still it's still quite tough islandy, right, 1:48:30.280 --> 1:48:33.240 because it's like, yeah, this has always been the comparison 1:48:33.240 --> 1:48:36.640 between British transphobia and American transphobia. Your your guys are 1:48:36.680 --> 1:48:39.720 all like, you're going to Hell and I'm gonna make 1:48:39.760 --> 1:48:43.360 sure you personally get there with my shotgun, and our 1:48:43.360 --> 1:48:47.120 guys are like, bloody hell, that's not right. Did you 1:48:47.200 --> 1:48:49.479 have a license for that gender? You really shouldn't be 1:48:49.840 --> 1:48:52.640 walking around in public without proper registration for all of 1:48:52.640 --> 1:48:57.320 your genders. You're carrying their ma'am, and that's you know, like, 1:48:57.560 --> 1:48:59.920 so in that regard, we're still very much tough Island 1:49:00.080 --> 1:49:02.760 like that you've got you've got bills coming through that 1:49:02.880 --> 1:49:06.679 like invalidate other existing No, I mean I'm talking aboutself 1:49:06.760 --> 1:49:11.599 in suckles already, because even this legislation also invalidates existing 1:49:11.720 --> 1:49:17.320 legislation because bigots can't write laws that make any sense whatsoever. 1:49:18.960 --> 1:49:21.080 But yeah, I think, I mean, this is still using 1:49:21.240 --> 1:49:25.800 like my numbing bureaucracy to enforce horrible bigotry. So in that, 1:49:26.080 --> 1:49:28.160 in that sense, it's still very on brand for the 1:49:28.200 --> 1:49:28.920 British government. 1:49:30.320 --> 1:49:32.120 Yeah, so okay, do you do can we can we 1:49:32.200 --> 1:49:34.840 walk to a little bit of like what specifically it does, 1:49:35.600 --> 1:49:37.920 because this is one of the this is this is 1:49:37.960 --> 1:49:40.080 my one of the canones that I've been on is 1:49:40.160 --> 1:49:41.920 that most of like ninety nine percent of the people 1:49:41.920 --> 1:49:44.559 who cover this stuff are really really bad at actually 1:49:44.720 --> 1:49:50.320 like saying what a law says, because oh god, yeah sure, 1:49:50.439 --> 1:49:51.000 sure sure. 1:49:51.439 --> 1:49:55.600 So the first thing is about changing names, uniforms, and 1:49:56.680 --> 1:50:01.960 what pronouns are used for a student. They they're making 1:50:02.000 --> 1:50:04.439 it so that this can't be done with without parental consent. 1:50:05.840 --> 1:50:07.959 It should also be said that all of this is guidance, 1:50:08.320 --> 1:50:10.920 like that they're putting out guidance to schools and so 1:50:11.000 --> 1:50:13.799 when I said earlier, this is in conflict with existing legislation, 1:50:14.040 --> 1:50:17.559 Like we have the Equalities Act, which should actually protect 1:50:17.600 --> 1:50:19.400 against basically everything that they've said here. 1:50:19.760 --> 1:50:20.320 They don't care. 1:50:21.600 --> 1:50:23.559 You know, if the government puts out guidance, it's it's 1:50:24.040 --> 1:50:28.000 as ever with fascism, Like it's they're deplaying stochastic methods. 1:50:28.040 --> 1:50:31.679 They want to embolden people who would already be looking 1:50:31.760 --> 1:50:34.560 for any excuse to be shipped to trans kids, to 1:50:34.640 --> 1:50:36.320 be able to do it, even though it would actually 1:50:36.320 --> 1:50:38.840 break the law. So yeah, that's so that's my thing. 1:50:39.680 --> 1:50:42.080 So my understanding of this is it's it's it's closer 1:50:42.120 --> 1:50:43.280 to the kind of thing you get in the US, 1:50:43.320 --> 1:50:45.840 where like sometimes you have a state attorney general will 1:50:45.960 --> 1:50:50.320 just like issue an interpretation of a ruling. So it's 1:50:50.400 --> 1:50:53.800 it's like that is my my understanding of it. 1:50:53.880 --> 1:50:57.000 Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, So it's guidance. All the guidance 1:50:57.040 --> 1:50:59.080 that they've gone out would actually break the Equalities Act. 1:50:59.320 --> 1:50:59.840 They don't care. 1:51:01.479 --> 1:51:05.400 So point one, no pronoun or uniform change without parental consent. 1:51:05.560 --> 1:51:09.760 Point two, no hiding any changes from parents. So if 1:51:09.800 --> 1:51:14.360 a kid is like, hey, you singular member of staff 1:51:14.439 --> 1:51:16.400 that I trust, the only adults that I know who 1:51:16.439 --> 1:51:19.920 I feel like could possibly keep me safe. My parents 1:51:19.960 --> 1:51:22.599 are violently queophobic, and I think that if I come 1:51:22.600 --> 1:51:24.800 out to them, I might be in danger. Please help me. 1:51:25.680 --> 1:51:28.200 The guidance is telling them no. You should definitely tell 1:51:28.280 --> 1:51:33.000 those horrible parents no matter how dangerous, how much of 1:51:33.040 --> 1:51:34.760 a danger the child is telling you that they're in. 1:51:37.479 --> 1:51:39.680 Head can say no to protect other kids. Now, this 1:51:39.760 --> 1:51:41.120 is a really interesting point that we'll have to come 1:51:41.160 --> 1:51:46.479 back to because head masters in the UK there's a 1:51:46.520 --> 1:51:49.120 whole class thing going on there that we should talk about. 1:51:49.160 --> 1:51:52.160 But yeah, so the head teacher of the school can 1:51:52.320 --> 1:51:57.840 say no to protect other kids. So explicitly, the justification 1:51:58.520 --> 1:52:03.280 is that kids being out. It's not it's not even 1:52:03.280 --> 1:52:05.400 the justification that a kid coming out as trans would 1:52:05.400 --> 1:52:07.800 be dangerous to them because they might get bullied. It's 1:52:08.040 --> 1:52:10.400 it's that it could be dangerous to other kids. So 1:52:10.479 --> 1:52:12.960 it's to protect them from I guess the social contagion 1:52:13.400 --> 1:52:19.360 of transit agenda Jesus Christ and any any kids uh 1:52:19.920 --> 1:52:24.599 gender questioning or just generally like any kid transit anyway 1:52:24.840 --> 1:52:27.920 basically is just being kicked out of competitive sports and schools. 1:52:28.520 --> 1:52:30.400 Yeah, which is interesting because it's a kind of like 1:52:30.640 --> 1:52:34.719 smorgas Board of a bunch of the different Well, okay, 1:52:34.800 --> 1:52:38.080 the the preventing kids from coming out because it might 1:52:38.160 --> 1:52:40.000 cause other kids to come out thing is like a 1:52:40.360 --> 1:52:43.160 I think that's genuinely new. I've never seen that one before. 1:52:43.600 --> 1:52:44.720 But the rest of it, I think it's like like, 1:52:44.760 --> 1:52:46.640 you know, there, there's there's there's been you know, we've 1:52:46.640 --> 1:52:48.439 talked about this on the show, like there's been legislation 1:52:48.520 --> 1:52:52.080 in the US that has forced uh, that has forced 1:52:52.080 --> 1:52:56.200 schools to out kids. Yeah. Yeah, and you know obviously 1:52:56.360 --> 1:53:00.400 the the like sports bands are you know, it's sort 1:53:00.439 --> 1:53:05.160 of like a pretty kind of like ERG like ERG 1:53:05.240 --> 1:53:07.240 transphobic panic thing. Yeah. 1:53:07.280 --> 1:53:10.679 Absolutely, all the biological advantage and all of this nonsense, 1:53:10.720 --> 1:53:15.320 which is like, you know, you could argue as one 1:53:15.400 --> 1:53:17.760 thing when you're talking about like a bodybuilder who has 1:53:17.880 --> 1:53:21.679 been who has been a bodybuilder for like twenty years 1:53:21.720 --> 1:53:24.120 and is now just starting to take estrogen and blah 1:53:24.160 --> 1:53:27.000 blah blah about biological advantage, But when you're talking about 1:53:27.040 --> 1:53:30.160 like two twelve year olds, Yeah, it's like, where's the 1:53:30.200 --> 1:53:32.639 biolog who I don't I don't know which one I'm 1:53:32.680 --> 1:53:33.080 betting on. 1:53:33.360 --> 1:53:35.680 You know, this is the thing, like I think I 1:53:35.720 --> 1:53:38.040 think there's a kind of like specific like like I 1:53:38.040 --> 1:53:39.360 think I think part of the reason it's worked in 1:53:39.400 --> 1:53:42.320 the US was like there's a very specific kind of 1:53:42.479 --> 1:53:47.280 sports brain that Americans have, where like like like there 1:53:47.320 --> 1:53:50.800 are like people people are really obsessed with high school 1:53:50.800 --> 1:53:54.920 sports and also college sports. Yeah, and I think I 1:53:55.000 --> 1:53:56.599 think that played a role in part of like how 1:53:56.920 --> 1:53:59.120 how this played out, because people were like, you know, 1:53:59.200 --> 1:54:04.760 people are people are like very very concerned about this, 1:54:05.680 --> 1:54:09.200 Like why why on earth they care about college football? 1:54:09.479 --> 1:54:12.160 Is right? Well, I mean not inn conta, but like 1:54:12.200 --> 1:54:14.320 like high school football. It's like this is like yeah, 1:54:14.680 --> 1:54:18.360 why sure, okay, whatever, We've built like a national cult 1:54:18.479 --> 1:54:21.759 around watching like seventeen year olds deshoy each other's brains. 1:54:22.240 --> 1:54:25.280 But gym really like you. 1:54:26.760 --> 1:54:29.400 Like what wild like and it's like the only the 1:54:29.479 --> 1:54:31.880 only sports we really we really care about a rugby 1:54:31.920 --> 1:54:34.760 and football or you know, our football, and like, I 1:54:34.960 --> 1:54:38.200 just it should be said, there's also a kind of creepy, 1:54:38.440 --> 1:54:41.480 uh cult of youth thing going on without football. It's 1:54:41.600 --> 1:54:45.080 like we don't we don't have the you know, grown 1:54:45.160 --> 1:54:48.680 men screaming and crying watching watching high schoolers and and 1:54:50.000 --> 1:54:54.520 university level athletes go against each other, but like there 1:54:54.560 --> 1:54:59.080 are you know, it's seen as you know, equivalent to 1:54:59.160 --> 1:55:01.680 the draft, as like opportunity for working class kids to 1:55:01.680 --> 1:55:04.120 get out of out of their situation. Is like maybe 1:55:04.160 --> 1:55:08.080 you'll be a football star, like opportunities to yeah, exactly, 1:55:08.320 --> 1:55:11.160 like opportunities to prove that you're the next Ronaldo or 1:55:11.160 --> 1:55:15.560 whatever all through our society. But yeah, like I don't know, 1:55:15.720 --> 1:55:18.680 it would be like a lot of a lot of 1:55:18.720 --> 1:55:21.360 English people suddenly very invested in lots of sports they 1:55:21.440 --> 1:55:23.760 never cared about before, when like football has been the 1:55:23.800 --> 1:55:26.120 only one they care about their entire lives, and they're like, yeah, 1:55:26.200 --> 1:55:28.800 what about the biological differences? And I'm like, my guy, 1:55:29.000 --> 1:55:31.240 the place that this would impact you is in is 1:55:31.280 --> 1:55:35.400 in professional football. And even supposing a trans woman were 1:55:35.480 --> 1:55:39.120 to get up into like the professional competitive level of 1:55:39.200 --> 1:55:42.440 women's football. You don't watch the women's football, but even 1:55:42.440 --> 1:55:47.520 if you did, like there are already constantly, like in 1:55:47.680 --> 1:55:50.800 the analysis of games, people are constantly like, you know, 1:55:51.120 --> 1:55:54.840 this player is really fast or whatever, so we know 1:55:54.960 --> 1:55:57.040 that the the opposing team is going to make a 1:55:57.080 --> 1:56:00.200 concerted effort to try and block them off. Specifically, I'm 1:56:00.200 --> 1:56:03.080 just waiting for when like a women's football team at 1:56:03.120 --> 1:56:05.320 the professional level, like brings a trans woman on as 1:56:05.360 --> 1:56:09.600 a deliberate, like deliberate distraction so that she can like 1:56:10.240 --> 1:56:11.760 look like she's going to try and get the ball, 1:56:11.920 --> 1:56:13.960 half of the opposing team try to block her off 1:56:14.000 --> 1:56:15.280 and then and then the rest of the team just 1:56:15.320 --> 1:56:16.080 go and score a goal. 1:56:17.840 --> 1:56:18.360 No, I, I. 1:56:19.920 --> 1:56:22.840 I want to take like take it back to say 1:56:22.880 --> 1:56:24.600 something I've been meaning to say, which is quite serious, 1:56:24.720 --> 1:56:29.640 Like you and I are both like trans, but not 1:56:29.840 --> 1:56:32.520 like we want out as as trans as kids. And 1:56:32.600 --> 1:56:34.680 I do think it's really important to acknowledge that when 1:56:34.720 --> 1:56:39.879 we're having conversations about trans kids, because in my exposure 1:56:39.920 --> 1:56:42.920 to trans kids and also like chatting with trans people 1:56:42.960 --> 1:56:44.960 I know who were out as kids, like there's just 1:56:45.040 --> 1:56:47.280 a repeated frustration over and over again of just like 1:56:49.200 --> 1:56:51.960 even the most well meaning adults who are trying to 1:56:52.000 --> 1:56:55.040 talk about this, like and I'm saying that that may 1:56:55.080 --> 1:57:00.280 will be us, are still like still talking for these ds, 1:57:01.000 --> 1:57:05.200 and so it's like it's an incredibly dispossessing and paralyzing position. 1:57:05.320 --> 1:57:08.760 And like, obviously children are like one of the groups 1:57:08.800 --> 1:57:11.879 in our society with absolutely the least agency and constantly 1:57:11.960 --> 1:57:15.000 talked over and had decisions made for them. And you 1:57:15.080 --> 1:57:17.800 can make arguments about how just that is, but like 1:57:17.960 --> 1:57:20.840 we all recognize that, like, there are plenty of cases 1:57:20.880 --> 1:57:24.000 where kids should be able to tell adults like what's 1:57:24.040 --> 1:57:25.640 going on with them, and adults ignore them. And then 1:57:25.680 --> 1:57:28.160 this is a really clear case of that. And so 1:57:28.400 --> 1:57:31.840 I have been talking to in preparation for coming on 1:57:31.960 --> 1:57:33.840 to do this interview. I've been talking to people I 1:57:34.040 --> 1:57:36.880 know who were kids who are out and also talking 1:57:36.920 --> 1:57:40.040 to people I know who work with with trans kids, 1:57:40.360 --> 1:57:43.040 just so that like just so that what I'm presenting 1:57:43.160 --> 1:57:46.080 is not just like my kind of my broad feelings 1:57:46.120 --> 1:57:49.160 about how it might be, you know, yeah, but yeah, 1:57:49.720 --> 1:57:51.640 I want to talk about that. The head teachers thing, 1:57:52.160 --> 1:57:55.600 head teachers can can say no to protect other kids 1:57:56.360 --> 1:57:58.040 is a really fascinating part of this. 1:57:58.400 --> 1:58:00.720 Sorry, can we can we back what actually is? So 1:58:00.920 --> 1:58:02.680 what actually is a head teacher because we don't have 1:58:02.760 --> 1:58:03.040 this in. 1:58:03.080 --> 1:58:06.760 That thing that is exactly what I'm trying to Yeah, yeah, okay, So, 1:58:07.160 --> 1:58:09.560 how well let me ask this, how does someone become 1:58:09.600 --> 1:58:11.560 a principle in your system? 1:58:12.400 --> 1:58:19.000 I actually that's a good question. I think that they 1:58:19.080 --> 1:58:23.280 get hired by the school basically, but it's I don't 1:58:23.320 --> 1:58:28.320 know if they're that that actually is a good question. 1:58:28.360 --> 1:58:31.680 I feel like I shouldn't. 1:58:31.760 --> 1:58:36.560 Can a teacher become a principle because here, like again 1:58:36.600 --> 1:58:38.600 in the in the framework of youth liberation, in the 1:58:38.640 --> 1:58:40.200 same way as we might say a cab, you know, 1:58:40.560 --> 1:58:43.440 you might point out that, like, you know, teachers people 1:58:43.480 --> 1:58:46.879 put in a systemic position to often like deny kids agency, 1:58:47.680 --> 1:58:49.800 but it's not quite as as like clear cut as 1:58:49.840 --> 1:58:53.040 a cab, right, Like, like teachers are fucking great, and 1:58:53.160 --> 1:58:56.720 like big up teachers unions, and like tons of teachers 1:58:56.760 --> 1:58:59.440 are both like massively underpaid and feeling the cost of 1:58:59.480 --> 1:59:03.800 living crisis really hard, and also pretty based people. Head teachers, 1:59:03.840 --> 1:59:07.520 on the other hand, a different school of fish entirely, 1:59:07.680 --> 1:59:09.520 Like they have a they have different unions, they have 1:59:09.560 --> 1:59:12.600 a different social life, they have a different class characteristic 1:59:12.680 --> 1:59:17.480 because like head teachers are paid so much more than teachers, 1:59:17.880 --> 1:59:21.480 and yeah, they're also like administrative. I don't know if 1:59:21.600 --> 1:59:24.520 like head teachers need to have even ever actually taught, 1:59:25.120 --> 1:59:28.560 but they're generally like really comfortable, very well paid, and 1:59:28.720 --> 1:59:32.200 they are there to to yeah, do a lot of 1:59:32.200 --> 1:59:38.200 administrative stuff and often like they're quite political, so specifically 1:59:38.280 --> 1:59:40.880 giving the power to say no to whether a kid 1:59:40.960 --> 1:59:43.200 comes out or not to the head teacher. Is like 1:59:44.640 --> 1:59:47.120 that feels very very deliberate on the other part of 1:59:47.160 --> 1:59:51.920 the Tory government, right, because like that's not it's not 1:59:52.080 --> 1:59:55.560 like your your your form tutor or you know, your 1:59:55.680 --> 1:59:57.840 whichever preferred teacher that you have lots of classes with 1:59:58.000 --> 2:00:00.320 your English teacher or whatever, like someone who's sees you 2:00:00.520 --> 2:00:01.600 maybe most days. 2:00:02.200 --> 2:00:02.480 It's this. 2:00:02.720 --> 2:00:04.960 It's this person who's like a figure ahead to the school, 2:00:06.160 --> 2:00:09.480 who has no personal relationship to you whatsoever, is being 2:00:09.520 --> 2:00:12.400 given this this uh yeah, this ability to just deny 2:00:12.480 --> 2:00:15.400 your transition, and that's utterly, utterly fucked And like I'm saying, 2:00:15.440 --> 2:00:19.760 it's a very conscious like class move, class based move 2:00:19.840 --> 2:00:21.280 on the in this guidance, I. 2:00:21.320 --> 2:00:23.600 Think, Yeah, I mean, it really seems like they had to, 2:00:25.760 --> 2:00:30.160 you know, it seems like a thing where the Tory 2:00:30.200 --> 2:00:33.800 government realized they couldn't rely just on regular teachers to 2:00:33.840 --> 2:00:35.800 act as gender bureaucrats. They had to they had to 2:00:35.920 --> 2:00:40.440 find someone who is like even like who has just 2:00:40.600 --> 2:00:44.680 no social attachment or social relations to like the actual 2:00:44.800 --> 2:00:47.840 kid who's trying to transition. Yeah, totally, you know, like 2:00:47.920 --> 2:00:53.040 it it is genuinely, Like I don't know, most like 2:00:53.200 --> 2:00:56.120 as as like as shit as teachers can be, like 2:00:56.360 --> 2:00:59.800 generally speaking, like your teacher does not want to torture 2:00:59.800 --> 2:01:03.440 their kids. That's like, that's not that's not that's that's 2:01:03.520 --> 2:01:05.200 usually not a thing that they want to do. 2:01:06.040 --> 2:01:07.360 And I and I and I don't want to leave 2:01:07.360 --> 2:01:10.520 it on said, Like I've been through the UK education system, 2:01:10.680 --> 2:01:13.520 I've encountered some teachers who definitely just want to torture 2:01:13.520 --> 2:01:18.000 their kids. Like but like again, most teachers are actually 2:01:18.040 --> 2:01:22.400 pretty good and like genuinely concerned with not only like 2:01:22.480 --> 2:01:27.320 what the safeguarding like rules say and what the protocols are, 2:01:27.400 --> 2:01:30.840 but like actually the moral duty of taking care of 2:01:30.960 --> 2:01:35.080 kids and making sure they're actually safe. Now that still 2:01:35.160 --> 2:01:38.040 can can can have problems. So like one person that 2:01:38.080 --> 2:01:39.680 I talked to, one of my friends, who was out 2:01:40.960 --> 2:01:45.040 when she was really quite young, she had like a 2:01:46.640 --> 2:01:51.760 a teaching assistant. So when kids are are like struggling 2:01:51.800 --> 2:01:54.520 in school and they need extra help with with with 2:01:54.640 --> 2:01:59.040 with their school work, sometimes like some lessons or topics 2:01:59.080 --> 2:02:01.920 are deemed as kind of like less necessary for them. 2:02:02.000 --> 2:02:06.440 Let's say maybe it's like their religious education lessons or whatever. Right, 2:02:06.520 --> 2:02:07.960 So they get to skip those ones, and then they 2:02:08.000 --> 2:02:09.680 go and do like I think you might call them 2:02:09.720 --> 2:02:13.000 remedial classes or whatever, like they're doing extra extra stuff 2:02:13.000 --> 2:02:15.120 to make sure that they supper classes they can get 2:02:15.160 --> 2:02:17.920 the basic Yeah, but it's within the school hours all 2:02:18.000 --> 2:02:21.000 I'm saying. So it's like they'll sort of say, you 2:02:21.040 --> 2:02:22.480 don't need to bother with this one. We'll go and 2:02:22.560 --> 2:02:25.320 do these classes instead to make sure that you can 2:02:25.400 --> 2:02:30.600 get like a passing grade in English. And so that's 2:02:30.640 --> 2:02:33.280 a person like a kid like that will have like 2:02:33.720 --> 2:02:36.320 the most developed a relationship too, because firstly, they are 2:02:36.440 --> 2:02:39.520 in every class that they sit through, and they also 2:02:39.600 --> 2:02:42.640 do special classes that is just one and one between 2:02:42.680 --> 2:02:45.440 the kid and that teaching assistant. So my friend said 2:02:45.520 --> 2:02:48.600 that she had like she'd come out to this teaching assistant, 2:02:49.600 --> 2:02:52.560 and the TA made it really clear that like she 2:02:52.640 --> 2:02:54.960 would have to try like sort of escalate this, like 2:02:55.040 --> 2:02:57.960 she would have to try to talk to more people 2:02:58.000 --> 2:03:00.760 about this situation and probably talk to her parents, And 2:03:00.880 --> 2:03:04.520 because of that, she sort of took it back, stopped 2:03:04.560 --> 2:03:06.840 talking about it, wouldn't go any further with it, and 2:03:06.920 --> 2:03:09.520 didn't come out to more people for a really long 2:03:09.640 --> 2:03:11.840 like for years after that point, and so you know, 2:03:12.000 --> 2:03:16.000 like you can already see that's an impact like that 2:03:16.080 --> 2:03:18.640 this will have more directly because that's like that situation 2:03:18.840 --> 2:03:23.920 is being described as the ideal outcome basically in some 2:03:24.040 --> 2:03:26.400 of this guidance. But I think also like it's important 2:03:26.440 --> 2:03:29.520 to acknowledge that we can imagine a best case scenario 2:03:29.840 --> 2:03:33.480 in my friend's story, like from however long ago, that 2:03:33.680 --> 2:03:36.560 maybe that Ta talks to other teachers who understand, and 2:03:36.680 --> 2:03:40.560 those teachers automatically think, like, are her parents going to 2:03:40.600 --> 2:03:43.720 be understanding? Can we approach this in a way that 2:03:43.760 --> 2:03:45.640 gives her space, Can we get her in touch with 2:03:45.720 --> 2:03:49.080 maybe like people who do youth work with queer kids, 2:03:49.240 --> 2:03:51.680 to like give her a venue to discuss this stuff 2:03:52.240 --> 2:03:55.600 without having to alert her parents. Now, so and we 2:03:55.680 --> 2:03:57.880 can imagine that best case scenario. I mean, like the 2:03:57.960 --> 2:04:01.120 impact immediately, like I said, was that she didn't come 2:04:01.120 --> 2:04:05.120 out for a long time. But but like that best 2:04:05.160 --> 2:04:08.040 case scenario is effectively eliminated if like the guidance is 2:04:08.160 --> 2:04:10.320 just like no, you have to tell the parents. The 2:04:10.400 --> 2:04:15.520 parents absolutely definitely must know. And I think that the 2:04:15.800 --> 2:04:19.240 thing as well about like no keeping like not keeping 2:04:19.280 --> 2:04:21.440 anything secret from parents. Let me just say what I 2:04:21.480 --> 2:04:24.360 say no hiding changes from parents. Is I think that, 2:04:24.560 --> 2:04:27.040 like that's a guidance that's pointing not just towards like 2:04:27.120 --> 2:04:30.480 the administrative part, like you're saying with what seems more 2:04:30.480 --> 2:04:33.160 in the jurisdiction of a gender bureaucrat, Like if a 2:04:33.320 --> 2:04:35.240 kid says, I'd like to change my name on the 2:04:35.280 --> 2:04:38.800 class register, but like if a teacher knows that the 2:04:38.920 --> 2:04:42.120 kids are using a different name and pronounce with their friends, 2:04:42.440 --> 2:04:46.360 right anyway, besides all of that, Like again, if we're 2:04:46.400 --> 2:04:49.000 imagining that best case scenario, like this thing about the 2:04:49.120 --> 2:04:51.840 head teacher can decide that their transition would be a 2:04:51.920 --> 2:04:56.640 danger to other kids, Like that's that's that's so above 2:04:56.680 --> 2:04:59.160 and beyond, like that's that's the that's the bit of 2:04:59.240 --> 2:05:02.080 this guidance that I find to be like probably the 2:05:02.200 --> 2:05:07.080 most the most utterly morally reprehensible is because because I 2:05:07.160 --> 2:05:09.440 think that a lot of trans kids are already familiar 2:05:09.520 --> 2:05:13.240 with how the pre existing safeguarding systems could cause them 2:05:13.240 --> 2:05:15.840 all these problems. But this is a new thing that's 2:05:16.000 --> 2:05:18.640 just like on top of all of that stuff. Even 2:05:18.680 --> 2:05:22.200 if you do have even if you do have support 2:05:22.360 --> 2:05:25.400 and like things are relatively okay for you, apparently, Yeah, 2:05:25.440 --> 2:05:28.280 the head teacher can just decide that you're not allowed 2:05:28.320 --> 2:05:31.840 to and that's that's utterly, utterly insane to me. Have 2:05:31.920 --> 2:05:34.240 another friend who was out when he was younger. He 2:05:34.360 --> 2:05:36.200 knew from a very young age he actually was lucky 2:05:36.280 --> 2:05:38.840 enough to have supportive parents and so like he was 2:05:38.880 --> 2:05:40.440 able to come out to people and come out to 2:05:40.520 --> 2:05:46.440 his parents. But even with supportive parents like he like that, 2:05:46.720 --> 2:05:49.480 there was still massive pushback from the school, which is like, 2:05:50.080 --> 2:05:53.280 you know, again, like it seems utterly ridiculous if you've 2:05:53.320 --> 2:05:56.880 got both the kids saying very clearly, I know for 2:05:57.000 --> 2:06:00.880 sure this sort of deal is, and like we have 2:06:00.960 --> 2:06:04.000 additional hindsight here that he's very happy with himself now 2:06:04.080 --> 2:06:07.240 and has been, you know, living his authentic life for 2:06:07.440 --> 2:06:10.840 you know how many years. But like, but you know, 2:06:10.920 --> 2:06:13.160 all this support around him at the time, and the 2:06:13.320 --> 2:06:16.680 and the school still says no, they're just yeah, the 2:06:16.960 --> 2:06:21.080 head teacher thing is actively pushing that even harder. And 2:06:21.160 --> 2:06:25.040 I just find that, yeah, just awful. Yeah, you know 2:06:25.120 --> 2:06:29.280 what else is awful? Living under capitalism and being bombarded 2:06:29.320 --> 2:06:32.120 with adverts for products and services. But the products and 2:06:32.160 --> 2:06:34.400 services themselves they're great, Isn't that right? 2:06:34.440 --> 2:06:34.720 Mayah. 2:06:35.000 --> 2:06:41.680 Yeah. Yeah, I am legally contractually required to not disparage 2:06:42.560 --> 2:06:45.400 the products and services that support this podcast. 2:06:46.880 --> 2:06:49.160 This brought this podcast brought to you by open Gate. 2:06:49.960 --> 2:06:56.040 Wow, we're back. Hopefully several more billionaires have been pins 2:06:56.120 --> 2:06:57.240 take to the bottom of the sea. 2:06:58.040 --> 2:07:02.879 Uh yeah, I'm so glad. So many, so many billionaires 2:07:02.960 --> 2:07:06.120 listened to it could happen here and took that juicy 2:07:06.400 --> 2:07:10.880 limited time offer to only pay two hundred thousand dollars 2:07:11.240 --> 2:07:16.880 for a ticket on the next submersible. Yeah. Like, following 2:07:16.920 --> 2:07:18.040 up from what I was just saying about my friend 2:07:18.080 --> 2:07:19.600 who was out when he was a kid and had 2:07:19.600 --> 2:07:24.560 supportive parents, he also highlighted to me how it impacted 2:07:24.600 --> 2:07:27.440 his medical transition at the time as well, because a 2:07:27.520 --> 2:07:29.720 lot of medical systems for a transition, and this is 2:07:29.760 --> 2:07:33.560 true in the UK, use some degree of like social 2:07:33.640 --> 2:07:37.400 transition as a requirement to prescribe any kind of medical transition. 2:07:37.800 --> 2:07:41.160 And so if you're a kid and you you know 2:07:41.320 --> 2:07:42.880 for sure this is your deal, and you want to 2:07:42.960 --> 2:07:45.160 avoid the traumas are going through the wrong puberty, which 2:07:45.200 --> 2:07:50.440 obviously is just like absolutely horrifying, then you need to 2:07:51.600 --> 2:07:54.120 be out and have the support of everyone around you, right, 2:07:54.240 --> 2:07:57.760 and that means like not only you need to be 2:07:57.800 --> 2:08:00.960 able to evidence like yeah, it's going well at school 2:08:01.000 --> 2:08:05.240 and not being bullied for being trans at all, which okay, yeah, 2:08:05.400 --> 2:08:10.040 like hopefully not. And I have supportive parents, my all 2:08:10.120 --> 2:08:12.400 my grandparents know as well and they're all on board 2:08:12.480 --> 2:08:15.640 or whatever. Like, but like if a school can just 2:08:15.720 --> 2:08:18.240 say no to a kid coming out, that's like that 2:08:18.400 --> 2:08:22.600 denies such a huge part of the social transition, which 2:08:22.840 --> 2:08:24.920 will then stop them from being able to medically transition. 2:08:25.200 --> 2:08:26.720 And like I'm you know, we. 2:08:29.400 --> 2:08:31.280 Maybe sis people need the spelling out, so I'll just 2:08:31.320 --> 2:08:34.080 say it, like if you can't. So if you can't 2:08:34.160 --> 2:08:37.800 medically transition, you're less likely to be well accepted in 2:08:37.880 --> 2:08:41.120 your social transition. So there's a really deliberate like catch 2:08:41.240 --> 2:08:44.720 twenty two of if you you know, of stopping someone's 2:08:44.720 --> 2:08:47.880 social transition and therefore stopping their medical transition and therefore right, 2:08:47.960 --> 2:08:51.040 it's just it's just trying to stop trans people existing altogether. 2:08:52.000 --> 2:08:54.080 Yeah, And I mean I think it's sort of particularly 2:08:54.560 --> 2:09:01.040 grim in the UK system, where you like, it's way harder. 2:09:01.880 --> 2:09:05.120 Two well, okay, outside of the places where it's been 2:09:05.240 --> 2:09:08.000 made increasingly legal. In the US, it is way way 2:09:08.160 --> 2:09:12.200 harder to get, like to just to get Jennifer mccare 2:09:12.280 --> 2:09:15.839 in the UK, and it requires a lot of bullshit 2:09:16.080 --> 2:09:20.120 that like you don't have in the US, and it's 2:09:20.160 --> 2:09:24.960 it's much it's much much more like pathologized, which is 2:09:25.080 --> 2:09:27.960 kind of insane because it's it's pretty pathologized in the 2:09:28.080 --> 2:09:30.480 US too. But the UK is like like has has 2:09:30.560 --> 2:09:33.480 has cranked up the like gender bureaucracy level to like 2:09:35.000 --> 2:09:36.920 they they they they found that they found the one 2:09:36.960 --> 2:09:39.320 that goes to eleven and we're like, fuck this ship 2:09:39.360 --> 2:09:41.480 when this need this needs like two hundred more dials. 2:09:43.040 --> 2:09:45.880 Yeah, it's all it's looking at out looking at our country, 2:09:45.920 --> 2:09:47.960 you might you might be led to the the the 2:09:48.400 --> 2:09:52.200 idea that we've been practicing uh, bureaucracy based fascism for 2:09:52.680 --> 2:09:54.400 hundreds of years already and gotten it down to the 2:09:54.520 --> 2:09:58.840 precise science. And well that's a that's a conclusion you 2:09:58.880 --> 2:10:03.440 could draw. Yeah. I was gonna say as well, Like 2:10:04.680 --> 2:10:07.120 we talked last time, I was on about like why 2:10:07.280 --> 2:10:10.200 is the UK like this in general? And I think 2:10:10.240 --> 2:10:14.800 that it's worth putting this into this puzzle piece, into 2:10:14.920 --> 2:10:20.280 a broader picture, right, Like we've just had a national 2:10:20.320 --> 2:10:23.440 story about a woman who is being prosecuted for having 2:10:23.440 --> 2:10:27.360 an abortion later than the allowed the allowed limits in 2:10:27.400 --> 2:10:32.120 British law, which is obviously the beginning of the right 2:10:32.160 --> 2:10:36.560 wing trying to push back on abortion. At the same time, 2:10:36.760 --> 2:10:39.320 Like a few weeks ago here Americans probably haven't heard 2:10:39.320 --> 2:10:40.920 about it, but there was a place in London called 2:10:40.920 --> 2:10:44.960 the Autonomous, a winter shelter. So this was some anarchists 2:10:45.040 --> 2:10:47.800 who some of whom I think we've interviewed on Red 2:10:47.840 --> 2:10:51.240 Planet before, who go kind of place to place and 2:10:51.320 --> 2:10:54.440 they squat on unoccupied buildings and they turned them into 2:10:55.080 --> 2:10:57.640 various things. But one thing they've repeatedly done is during 2:10:57.720 --> 2:11:00.840 winter periods turned them into homeless shelters that they run 2:11:00.880 --> 2:11:04.560 as autonomous shelters. And basically it got to the spring 2:11:04.640 --> 2:11:07.800 and they still hadn't moved out of this place because 2:11:08.040 --> 2:11:09.760 I mean, there were still homeless people that they wanted 2:11:09.760 --> 2:11:14.640 to help, and so the Metropolitan Police, London's finest sent down, 2:11:14.760 --> 2:11:18.240 you know, like dozens of pigs in riot gear to 2:11:18.720 --> 2:11:22.200 forcibly like evict them. And I just think that like 2:11:23.200 --> 2:11:28.760 it's really it's just really important to see the premise 2:11:28.840 --> 2:11:32.560 that like states are aware that they are policing the collapse, right, 2:11:33.360 --> 2:11:35.320 will be very familiar to your audience. But I think 2:11:35.360 --> 2:11:38.880 there's the specific context of Fortress Europe going on with 2:11:38.960 --> 2:11:42.520 Britain because like, even though Britain has brexited itself out, 2:11:42.640 --> 2:11:44.920 like we're still we still have a lot of the 2:11:45.800 --> 2:11:48.760 same concerns in right wing politics that drive the thinking 2:11:48.840 --> 2:11:50.720 of Fortress Europe, and so a lot of our like 2:11:51.120 --> 2:11:56.600 for instance, immigration stuff is increasingly draconian and fascy. And 2:11:56.680 --> 2:11:58.840 I just think that like putting these three pieces together, 2:11:58.840 --> 2:12:00.000 we can kind of see a bit of what's going on, 2:12:00.360 --> 2:12:03.840 like the government actively trying to clamp down on people's 2:12:03.840 --> 2:12:07.040 bodily autonomy, trying to stop any other kind of gender 2:12:07.120 --> 2:12:10.840 expression being in place, and also trying to like stop 2:12:10.920 --> 2:12:14.160 people from doing mutual aid and organizing that will lessen 2:12:14.200 --> 2:12:16.480 the impact of of the collapse. 2:12:17.720 --> 2:12:19.480 Yeah, and well, and I think this is a it's 2:12:19.520 --> 2:12:21.600 a very deliberate you know, one of the things that 2:12:21.640 --> 2:12:26.280 I think is very common you know, like across the 2:12:26.360 --> 2:12:30.720 sort of like broad historical sweep of movements, right is okay, 2:12:30.760 --> 2:12:35.080 so well, okay, so the the the number one thing 2:12:35.160 --> 2:12:37.880 you do if when there's a massive social rument going on, 2:12:37.960 --> 2:12:39.520 you need to stop it that the first the like 2:12:40.200 --> 2:12:42.600 the sort of like most dramatic thing you do is 2:12:42.640 --> 2:12:45.120 you start a war. So for example, like you know, 2:12:45.240 --> 2:12:47.520 the the American movements of the sixties are immediately followed 2:12:47.560 --> 2:12:50.760 by the massive attenis ucation of Vietnam. I think, like 2:12:50.840 --> 2:12:53.000 the most blatant example that I could think of is 2:12:53.520 --> 2:12:56.760 in two thousand and six in Mexico, you have simultaneously 2:12:56.840 --> 2:13:02.200 this massive zapatista campaign. You have Omlo like basically declaring 2:13:02.200 --> 2:13:04.600 it well, there there's a contested election in Ombla like 2:13:04.640 --> 2:13:07.840 declares him self president even though like technically lost the election. 2:13:08.360 --> 2:13:11.040 And then simultaneously, like the city of Wahaka like does 2:13:11.080 --> 2:13:13.360 an uprising and take control of the city. Wow, and 2:13:14.120 --> 2:13:15.800 and like and like they they they hold the city 2:13:15.880 --> 2:13:21.680 for like one hundred days. And basically immediately after the 2:13:21.880 --> 2:13:25.560 like so the Mexican Army gets deployed and like takes 2:13:25.640 --> 2:13:29.080 back the city. And immediately after the like the the like, 2:13:29.240 --> 2:13:31.520 the the the the full on like entrance of the 2:13:31.600 --> 2:13:34.840 Mexican army into the war on drug starts. And this 2:13:35.000 --> 2:13:36.280 is like this is you know, this is a sort 2:13:36.280 --> 2:13:38.200 of very a very very common social pattern. Right of 2:13:38.640 --> 2:13:41.520 the way, the the way the way you defeat, you know, 2:13:41.600 --> 2:13:43.840 I mean just literally like straight up uprisings is by 2:13:44.000 --> 2:13:46.960 doing like one is, by doing a war. The second 2:13:47.040 --> 2:13:51.440 thing you can do is you start you you you 2:13:51.600 --> 2:13:54.800 you you pivot away from the social issues that are 2:13:54.960 --> 2:13:57.920 like that sort of your mass protesters, your uprisings are about, 2:13:58.520 --> 2:14:01.160 and you go back to domestic politics and you go 2:14:01.240 --> 2:14:04.080 back into social reproduction. You attack them there. So you know, 2:14:04.160 --> 2:14:05.720 I mean like it like China has a good example 2:14:05.760 --> 2:14:08.120 of this of like all all of this sort of 2:14:08.320 --> 2:14:11.280 like discontent that had been boiling around the country revolution 2:14:11.440 --> 2:14:14.680 and around you know, like like things around like things 2:14:14.680 --> 2:14:17.440 about gender roles, which was you know, like actually genuinely 2:14:17.480 --> 2:14:19.240 happening at that time. All of the sort of upheaval 2:14:19.960 --> 2:14:23.080 is capped off by the one child policy. Yes, or 2:14:23.120 --> 2:14:24.600 if you know, I mean we go back to the 2:14:24.720 --> 2:14:26.520 US for a second, right, we have twenty twenty, we 2:14:26.560 --> 2:14:30.200 have this massive uprising. Immediately after the uprising, we get 2:14:30.600 --> 2:14:34.840 all of the anti transhit intensifies, so like just unbelievably 2:14:34.960 --> 2:14:38.560 enormously right, yeah, and then this this is incredibly deliberate 2:14:38.760 --> 2:14:41.240 in a lot of ways. It's it's you know, it's 2:14:41.320 --> 2:14:46.120 it's it's it's very very concrete attempt to like reassert 2:14:46.200 --> 2:14:50.840 sort of patriarchal and cist gender control over people over 2:14:51.000 --> 2:14:54.800 sort of families, over over sort of society writ large. 2:14:55.160 --> 2:14:57.200 That was part of my point is that like is 2:14:57.360 --> 2:14:59.720 how we can see what the what the British state 2:14:59.760 --> 2:15:02.200 is up to, very very clearly, like they they are 2:15:02.280 --> 2:15:05.160 trying to create a more rigid control in their population. 2:15:05.680 --> 2:15:09.320 And you know this is why I mean like calling 2:15:09.360 --> 2:15:11.280 it turf Island, but like a lot of turfs will 2:15:11.320 --> 2:15:13.920 pretend that they you know, will fight for abortion rights 2:15:13.960 --> 2:15:16.880 or whatever. Actually there was a protest to do with 2:15:17.040 --> 2:15:19.080 the to do with that abortion case I mentioned the 2:15:19.160 --> 2:15:22.360 other day, and a bunch of a bunch of like 2:15:22.720 --> 2:15:26.360 anarchists and like trans people showed up, and there was 2:15:26.440 --> 2:15:29.160 also some people from Women's Place, who is a tough organization, 2:15:29.680 --> 2:15:33.680 and like then and so obviously like they were trying 2:15:33.680 --> 2:15:35.880 to like box them out and be like kiss off, 2:15:35.920 --> 2:15:41.080 you don't belong here. And then like a far right 2:15:41.200 --> 2:15:43.920 like preacher showed up with like anti abortion stuff and 2:15:43.960 --> 2:15:46.880 a megaphone and trying to like and so obviously like 2:15:47.120 --> 2:15:50.760 all of the all of the transactivists, the the authentic 2:15:50.880 --> 2:15:54.920 leftists like started it's like getting in that guy's way 2:15:54.960 --> 2:15:56.720 and ruining his day and making it so he couldn't 2:15:56.720 --> 2:15:58.840 do any of his stuff, and obviously the Turfs don't 2:15:58.880 --> 2:16:00.640 care at all. Like then yeah, they're not there to 2:16:00.720 --> 2:16:05.600 actually fight against anything. But you know, especially so when 2:16:05.600 --> 2:16:07.280 you when you look at that bigger picture, like I say, 2:16:07.320 --> 2:16:10.400 it's just like if you're looking at the bigger picture, 2:16:10.480 --> 2:16:13.200 you can tell there is no there there is no 2:16:13.560 --> 2:16:17.120 divide between like the bodily autonomy of sis women and 2:16:17.360 --> 2:16:20.160 for that matter, like transmask and non binary people with 2:16:20.520 --> 2:16:22.280 who are who are as signed female at birth, you know, 2:16:22.360 --> 2:16:24.720 and and trans rights. There's no conflict at all. It's 2:16:25.080 --> 2:16:28.200 it's the state is trying to crack down on bodily 2:16:28.200 --> 2:16:30.520 autonomy and on gender expression as part of a bigger 2:16:30.560 --> 2:16:35.280 project of you know, implementing more authoritarianism. And I don't know, 2:16:35.320 --> 2:16:37.160 I guess like that there's a feeling I keep on 2:16:37.240 --> 2:16:41.440 running up against recently, which is just like waiting for 2:16:41.640 --> 2:16:45.880 the waiting for disparate leftist causes to kind of realize 2:16:46.280 --> 2:16:50.440 and act like all of this stuff is is one side, 2:16:50.600 --> 2:16:52.560 you know, Like it's very clear, like because from the 2:16:52.600 --> 2:16:54.920 state's point of view, as you're saying, like starting a 2:16:55.040 --> 2:17:02.080 war tightening immigration policies, starting abortion, cracking down on quick people, 2:17:02.160 --> 2:17:04.280 Like all of these are, from the state's point of view, 2:17:05.800 --> 2:17:10.080 methods within methods in their toolbox to achieve one greater goal. 2:17:11.000 --> 2:17:14.640 And I think that like we need well, I mean 2:17:14.800 --> 2:17:16.680 to say we need class consciousness would be you know, 2:17:16.959 --> 2:17:19.560 just like it seems too obvious to say even but 2:17:19.680 --> 2:17:21.520 like we do, we need we need a consciousness of 2:17:21.800 --> 2:17:25.120 the fact that, like these issues affect everyone, even if 2:17:25.160 --> 2:17:27.920 it seems like it doesn't affect you in your everyday life. 2:17:28.560 --> 2:17:31.560 You know, if you were a cisht white man who's 2:17:32.120 --> 2:17:36.440 a self employed adult, utterly libertarian steel man, you don't 2:17:36.480 --> 2:17:38.920 depend on anyone like, it is still going to affect 2:17:38.959 --> 2:17:41.879 you because it is the state gaining more power over 2:17:41.959 --> 2:17:45.200 everybody by doing these things. One thing I want to 2:17:45.200 --> 2:17:48.000 say also about like the kids who I'd gotten some 2:17:48.080 --> 2:17:50.440 feedback from, was like there is a big mood among 2:17:50.520 --> 2:17:53.520 trans kids that like they'd been told that things were 2:17:53.560 --> 2:17:56.320 going to be getting better. So like when I said 2:17:56.360 --> 2:17:58.440 that that story with my friend who had the teaching assistant, 2:17:58.520 --> 2:18:03.480 she said that for her growing up, it was absolutely 2:18:03.600 --> 2:18:06.320 nightmarish and the bullying was really intense, and the support 2:18:06.400 --> 2:18:10.480 with the support from adults was non existent, and then 2:18:10.560 --> 2:18:13.800 there was a little window where like people started to 2:18:13.800 --> 2:18:17.640 become more aware of trans people and and from the 2:18:17.720 --> 2:18:20.240 liberal side and all of the like corporate pink washing 2:18:20.280 --> 2:18:25.240 and whatever, and it seemed like a broad like culture 2:18:25.280 --> 2:18:28.240 of acceptance is being brought in. And now it feels 2:18:28.280 --> 2:18:30.200 like that's being revoked. But like, you know, I mean 2:18:30.680 --> 2:18:32.600 how she put it was like she feels like it's 2:18:32.680 --> 2:18:35.000 just sort of back to normal because like that's what 2:18:35.160 --> 2:18:37.840 she already grew up with. But like I do, we 2:18:37.920 --> 2:18:39.160 have to think about it from the point of view 2:18:39.160 --> 2:18:42.280 of kids who are you know, trying to exist as 2:18:42.400 --> 2:18:45.119 trans kids right now, Like they have been told by 2:18:46.040 --> 2:18:49.480 by liberals that like things are getting better, we're aware 2:18:49.520 --> 2:18:51.640 of trans people. Now, we're going to fight for trans rites, 2:18:52.360 --> 2:18:55.760 and it's very clear that like they're not they're not 2:18:55.840 --> 2:18:56.400 getting better. 2:18:58.160 --> 2:18:58.320 You know. 2:18:58.400 --> 2:19:01.959 I just want to say, like two, uh, trans kids 2:19:02.000 --> 2:19:04.600 who might like might hear this, might get any of 2:19:04.640 --> 2:19:08.360 this sentiment that like I completely I completely feel it myself, 2:19:08.640 --> 2:19:12.240 Like having come out at the tail end of liberals 2:19:12.280 --> 2:19:18.520 being like, yeah, we love trannies, sorry, Daniel, Like having 2:19:18.560 --> 2:19:20.320 come out right at the tail end of that now 2:19:20.520 --> 2:19:24.640 ship's getting unbelievably bleak, Like I also feel that, and 2:19:25.800 --> 2:19:28.520 I I guess it's the the the saying about like 2:19:28.600 --> 2:19:31.320 don't let this, let this radicalize you rather than lead 2:19:31.360 --> 2:19:34.800 you to despair, because I from where I'm looking around 2:19:34.879 --> 2:19:38.440 myself as an adult, you know, a politically active and 2:19:38.480 --> 2:19:41.760 engaged adult, like there there aren't any answers in the 2:19:42.160 --> 2:19:45.680 in the like left liberal ooh, we're so multicultural and 2:19:45.760 --> 2:19:49.680 accepting kind of space. It's that's that's entirely dependent on profit. 2:19:49.840 --> 2:19:52.680 And you know, Target is emptying all the pride stuff 2:19:52.720 --> 2:19:55.400 out of their stores. Now, Capital does not care for 2:19:55.440 --> 2:19:58.600 the queers, but we we can care for each other. 2:19:58.680 --> 2:20:01.320 I think it's really important to say that, like, you know, 2:20:01.440 --> 2:20:04.320 finding queer community is really important, but that's you know, 2:20:04.480 --> 2:20:08.200 and that's obviously true. But also like queer community being 2:20:09.200 --> 2:20:12.120 like class conscious and radical and organized are also really 2:20:12.160 --> 2:20:14.600 really important. And you know, I am seeing that, Like 2:20:14.680 --> 2:20:18.080 I do want to say, like in covering this like 2:20:18.240 --> 2:20:24.400 obviously really grim situation that's being enforced like that, we're 2:20:24.480 --> 2:20:27.160 not just sitting by and letting it happen. It's just 2:20:27.240 --> 2:20:31.320 that we are like as leftists, we're always this just 2:20:31.400 --> 2:20:34.880 like tiny radical fringe for the time being, and so 2:20:35.120 --> 2:20:39.520 like we're doing what we can. I don't want I 2:20:39.600 --> 2:20:41.080 just don't want trans kids to feel like there are 2:20:41.080 --> 2:20:46.760 absolutely no adults who who are in the Venn diagram 2:20:46.879 --> 2:20:52.039 of like understanding how fucked this is and actually having 2:20:52.080 --> 2:20:55.480 a proportional idea of the solutions that are necessary. Now 2:20:55.680 --> 2:20:58.560 we're not also, unfortunately, like none of us are currently 2:20:58.640 --> 2:21:01.560 in the third the third ven diagram circle of like 2:21:02.320 --> 2:21:05.440 having the power to stop it yet, but we're doing 2:21:05.440 --> 2:21:07.280 everything that we can for the time being, right. 2:21:08.320 --> 2:21:10.480 Yeah, Well, and I think there's only thing that's kind 2:21:10.480 --> 2:21:12.400 of it's important to think about with this too, is 2:21:12.520 --> 2:21:19.200 like like the reason this is happening it like is 2:21:19.560 --> 2:21:21.960 is because like there was actually a period of time 2:21:22.000 --> 2:21:24.360 when we were winning, right, And this is I think 2:21:24.360 --> 2:21:26.080 particularly true in the US, but I mean I think 2:21:26.120 --> 2:21:27.920 it's still also true in the UK, right, Like it 2:21:28.120 --> 2:21:31.920 like the the reason there had to be a backlash 2:21:32.080 --> 2:21:36.360 like this was because like things weren't you know, for 2:21:36.600 --> 2:21:39.000 a brief amount of time getting better. But like even 2:21:39.040 --> 2:21:40.560 with how bad it is now, even with how bad 2:21:40.600 --> 2:21:43.840 it's getting, it's it's always like, you know, like being 2:21:43.879 --> 2:21:45.640 a leftist, it is always hard to sort of make 2:21:46.000 --> 2:21:50.320 like these kind of like liberal teleological like the moral 2:21:50.400 --> 2:21:52.760 arc of the universe, like Ben's sour justice arguments. But 2:21:54.240 --> 2:21:57.080 we are going to beat them. Yeah, it will. It 2:21:57.160 --> 2:21:59.879 will take time, It will take an enormous amount of struggle, 2:22:00.480 --> 2:22:04.200 but we are going to and absolutely, you know, and 2:22:04.320 --> 2:22:07.440 like and I think something that is very very very important, 2:22:07.840 --> 2:22:10.200 like this is not hopeless, like it is not. It 2:22:10.560 --> 2:22:14.160 is simply not. We have already achieved in one things 2:22:14.200 --> 2:22:17.120 that like our forefathers fucking only dreamed of. Right, yeah, 2:22:17.280 --> 2:22:19.360 as well we are going out. 2:22:22.360 --> 2:22:24.920 Yeah no, I mean I I think I I completely agree, 2:22:25.000 --> 2:22:27.200 and I want to like double down on what I'm 2:22:27.200 --> 2:22:30.279 saying about the liberals that, like I the liberal promise 2:22:31.200 --> 2:22:34.400 that you've been given, of of acceptance within like their 2:22:34.480 --> 2:22:37.560 framework that like Hillary Clinton will stand up and say 2:22:37.680 --> 2:22:40.560 she loves trans writes. Yes, that one was a lie, 2:22:40.760 --> 2:22:45.000 that was fucked. That was bullshit, liberals lie. I hope 2:22:45.120 --> 2:22:47.600 that you have already figured this out because I believe 2:22:47.640 --> 2:22:51.400 kids are smart enough to figure this out, because liberals 2:22:51.520 --> 2:22:56.080 love to lie. But like, in terms of it getting better, 2:22:56.280 --> 2:22:59.880 like it will, even if the way that it gets 2:23:00.040 --> 2:23:03.400 better is that like is that like we break free 2:23:03.560 --> 2:23:06.080 like is only in breaking free of these systems. Like 2:23:06.400 --> 2:23:10.400 it's it's I I Am not going to make any 2:23:10.480 --> 2:23:13.320 promises that like the society that we live in as 2:23:13.400 --> 2:23:16.120 it is now is going to is going to come 2:23:16.200 --> 2:23:19.760 back around and like will have trans people treated the 2:23:19.800 --> 2:23:22.160 way that the gay people were treated in the year 2:23:22.200 --> 2:23:27.880 two thousand. It's it's you know that one maybe, but 2:23:28.160 --> 2:23:30.280 like I'm not holding my breath for it, but like 2:23:30.680 --> 2:23:33.000 it will get better one way or another. And it 2:23:33.080 --> 2:23:34.720 may well be the way that get it gets better 2:23:34.879 --> 2:23:39.879 is that we have like stronger and more radical communities 2:23:39.959 --> 2:23:42.560 of mutual aid and care, and those those are the 2:23:42.600 --> 2:23:46.000 spaces where it's like, you know, safe and and good 2:23:46.080 --> 2:23:49.039 for trans people and possible for us to strive and thrive. 2:23:52.360 --> 2:23:57.680 Yeah, And I think, you know, I think this is 2:23:57.760 --> 2:24:01.600 something that like, I mean, you know, if you look 2:24:01.680 --> 2:24:05.760 back at sort of how the history of like like 2:24:05.840 --> 2:24:07.040 if if you look if you look at just like 2:24:07.080 --> 2:24:09.000 the history of sort of like gay rights, right, like 2:24:10.000 --> 2:24:13.000 a big part of what that looked like that has 2:24:13.080 --> 2:24:16.880 been sort of you know, just like wiped from the 2:24:16.959 --> 2:24:19.879 sort of public memory, right, Like the stuff people remember 2:24:20.160 --> 2:24:22.240 is you know that the sort of like really flashy 2:24:23.280 --> 2:24:25.800 activist stuff, But a huge part of what that looked 2:24:25.920 --> 2:24:30.480 like was just you know, I have a couch, right 2:24:31.320 --> 2:24:34.119 you can you can sleep here, Like we will take 2:24:34.160 --> 2:24:37.320 care of you. We will like we will feed you, 2:24:37.640 --> 2:24:40.840 we will take care of you emotionally. And yeah, you know, 2:24:41.640 --> 2:24:44.560 as as bad as that shit was, they were, you know, 2:24:44.840 --> 2:24:48.720 as many people as we lost, Like, there are so 2:24:49.400 --> 2:24:51.960 so many people who are you know, like alive and 2:24:52.120 --> 2:24:55.879 thriving and you know, living authentic with themselves and are 2:24:56.120 --> 2:25:00.160 you know, like like genuinely like just like having like 2:25:00.280 --> 2:25:04.440 having a good time because that's because yeah, yeah, yeah. 2:25:04.360 --> 2:25:06.280 That's my liver reality right now. I have so many 2:25:06.320 --> 2:25:09.720 friends in the quick community who are housing insecure or 2:25:09.959 --> 2:25:12.520 you know, who don't have jobs or whatever, and like 2:25:13.040 --> 2:25:16.840 we have each other. Like I think I got a this. 2:25:17.040 --> 2:25:19.920 This butcher I've been dating went to an event for 2:25:20.080 --> 2:25:21.879 like working class butchers the other day. She came back 2:25:21.879 --> 2:25:23.000 with some pins and she was like, do you want 2:25:23.000 --> 2:25:24.760 any of these? And I picked up this one that 2:25:24.840 --> 2:25:26.879 says we are dykes and all we have is each 2:25:26.920 --> 2:25:30.200 other because like that is like in the like dyke 2:25:30.280 --> 2:25:33.000 community that I'm in, Like that's so incredibly true, and 2:25:33.080 --> 2:25:36.960 we have each other's backs. And like, yeah, like it 2:25:37.000 --> 2:25:38.840 will continue to be true that we're taking care of 2:25:38.879 --> 2:25:45.600 each other. I guess it's like it's been already for 2:25:45.959 --> 2:25:48.760 me for years now. The thing to get angry about 2:25:48.840 --> 2:25:50.680 is how many people we will lose in the meantime, 2:25:51.120 --> 2:25:53.520 because like if I if you were if you were 2:25:53.560 --> 2:25:57.320 gay in nineteen seventy nine or whatever, right and you 2:25:57.440 --> 2:26:00.440 were about to go into the into the AIDS pandemic, 2:26:00.600 --> 2:26:04.800 like it just you may you may even then have 2:26:04.879 --> 2:26:07.920 had a sense, like I think a lot of people didn't, 2:26:07.959 --> 2:26:10.720 but like, you know, we we have hindsight to know 2:26:10.840 --> 2:26:14.600 that like things turned out quote unquote okay in the end, 2:26:15.200 --> 2:26:17.680 but like so many people were lost in the meantime. 2:26:17.720 --> 2:26:19.480 And for me, that's the thing I'm angry about is 2:26:19.600 --> 2:26:24.600 just like how tedious this liberal bullshit is of enacting 2:26:24.720 --> 2:26:32.160 this like staged farce of like, uh, scapegoating bigotry in 2:26:32.400 --> 2:26:35.039 order to like control the population, you know, in order 2:26:35.120 --> 2:26:38.400 to divide the working class with with this bigotry. And 2:26:38.480 --> 2:26:41.360 then like at some point we'll we'll will we will 2:26:41.400 --> 2:26:43.680 move past it and things will be more chill, and 2:26:43.800 --> 2:26:45.360 like trans people will not be the ones with the 2:26:45.840 --> 2:26:50.080 with the crosshairs on us either be either because we 2:26:50.160 --> 2:26:52.920 have abolished and smashed the crosshairs or simply because they've 2:26:52.959 --> 2:26:55.520 moved on. And I'm I'm just angry about how many 2:26:55.520 --> 2:26:56.720 people will be lost in the mean time. 2:26:57.080 --> 2:26:59.520 Yeahs, And I think I Gues said something we should 2:26:59.520 --> 2:27:02.440 circle back two in terms of sort of the immediate 2:27:02.480 --> 2:27:06.400 school regulations is like, you know, okay, so the people 2:27:06.440 --> 2:27:12.000 who are making these laws know this, but like a 2:27:12.160 --> 2:27:14.080 lot of the trans people who are killed are killed 2:27:14.120 --> 2:27:17.039 by their parents. That is a that is a very 2:27:17.280 --> 2:27:20.120 very common way for trans people to die. You come 2:27:20.120 --> 2:27:23.240 out to your parents and your parents kill you, and 2:27:23.920 --> 2:27:29.000 that is fucking bleak as ship. And you know, and 2:27:29.160 --> 2:27:31.280 again like like these these these these people know this, 2:27:31.560 --> 2:27:34.000 like there's there is a there's recently a recording of 2:27:34.080 --> 2:27:39.600 Rishi su Nak just like like just you know, okay. 2:27:39.640 --> 2:27:42.800 So the thing about sort of you know, this has 2:27:42.840 --> 2:27:46.200 been changing in the US now because we've gotten to 2:27:46.280 --> 2:27:49.680 a point where like right when people can just like 2:27:50.360 --> 2:27:54.320 say slurs and it's you know, public publicly acceptable. 2:27:54.360 --> 2:27:56.600 But for like for like a long time, you like 2:27:56.879 --> 2:27:59.320 say slaws and Daniel bleeps them. That's fucking crazy to me, 2:27:59.600 --> 2:28:01.640 you know, I'm look at the censorship I'm dealing with 2:28:01.800 --> 2:28:03.600 is what I'm saying. You know, I I say Tranny, 2:28:03.640 --> 2:28:05.640 I say Fagot, I say Dike, and Daniel's there just 2:28:06.120 --> 2:28:07.240 ruling with an eye and fist. 2:28:07.320 --> 2:28:07.560 What's that? 2:28:07.600 --> 2:28:08.160 What's up with that? 2:28:11.080 --> 2:28:12.720 It would be very funny if it just none, if 2:28:12.760 --> 2:28:17.680 this was censored at all, just like no. Yeah, but 2:28:17.800 --> 2:28:19.720 like like you know, there there there's a recording of 2:28:20.760 --> 2:28:25.400 like just like actually saying the ship like like I 2:28:25.760 --> 2:28:28.960 like actually just saying like the really sort of overt 2:28:28.959 --> 2:28:35.840 anti transship that he believes in private. Yeah, and like yeah, 2:28:35.920 --> 2:28:38.680 like that that that's like these people like want to 2:28:38.840 --> 2:28:42.400 hurt us? Like that is that is that there's something 2:28:42.440 --> 2:28:45.120 that's incredibly clear based on both their sort of what 2:28:45.240 --> 2:28:48.560 they say in private and what they do in public. Yeah, 2:28:49.480 --> 2:28:55.240 and you know, fuck them. Yeah, Barry Hunk in the submarine, Uh, 2:28:56.120 --> 2:28:58.080 get it, get it, get in the fucking contraption. 2:29:00.600 --> 2:29:03.720 God's be its number submarine and and critical support to 2:29:03.760 --> 2:29:07.800 Comrade Occa. We will we will deal with with sinec. 2:29:10.360 --> 2:29:16.000 I'm speaking on behalf of the ocean. Yeah, I don't know, 2:29:16.040 --> 2:29:17.800 I don't I I don't know what to say about it, 2:29:18.160 --> 2:29:20.840 because again, like I was not out as trans as 2:29:20.879 --> 2:29:24.760 a kid. I don't want to give like empty assurances 2:29:25.200 --> 2:29:26.840 to people who are going through something that I did 2:29:26.920 --> 2:29:29.080 not go through, that we didn't did not go through. 2:29:29.400 --> 2:29:32.840 But I do want to say that like as for 2:29:33.200 --> 2:29:37.680 and it gets better, like we care for each other, 2:29:37.800 --> 2:29:39.960 and we like we we will continue to have each 2:29:40.000 --> 2:29:43.120 other's backs. I've been reading a lot of I've been 2:29:43.160 --> 2:29:45.440 reading Homo Sakea by Georgio Aganmbin for a little while 2:29:45.520 --> 2:29:49.960 now about the like the class of people like whichever 2:29:50.160 --> 2:29:52.520 in whatever society you're talking about, like class of people 2:29:52.600 --> 2:29:55.440 who are treated as the exception from the model of 2:29:55.480 --> 2:29:58.960 the state, like the people who know who are treated 2:29:59.080 --> 2:30:01.920 like it wouldn't matter if someone killed them. And you know, 2:30:01.959 --> 2:30:04.520 it's it's obviously hitting close to home, because that's that's 2:30:04.560 --> 2:30:08.240 the point of the book, right And I don't know, 2:30:08.320 --> 2:30:09.880 it's it's given me a lot of a lot of 2:30:10.120 --> 2:30:11.800 pause for thought over this kind of stuff. 2:30:11.560 --> 2:30:12.240 That like we have. 2:30:13.879 --> 2:30:14.560 We have each other. 2:30:14.879 --> 2:30:17.760 It does it does immediately give you a perspective that 2:30:17.879 --> 2:30:21.400 invalidates all of the all of the apparatus of the state, 2:30:21.440 --> 2:30:23.560 because it's all like, wow, that's the nice world you 2:30:23.640 --> 2:30:26.840 got over there. I'm just not part of it. I'm 2:30:26.879 --> 2:30:30.680 just not welcome in it. But it's a but the 2:30:30.920 --> 2:30:32.280 bit where I can say it's okay is we have 2:30:32.360 --> 2:30:33.160 our own world. 2:30:34.440 --> 2:30:36.920 And like, and it fucking rips by the way it does. 2:30:37.080 --> 2:30:44.119 It whips incredibly fucking hard. It might be like irresponsible 2:30:44.160 --> 2:30:46.320 to discuss in too much detail, but it does work. Actually, 2:30:50.160 --> 2:30:54.040 but like, yeah, like as much as like kind of 2:30:54.240 --> 2:30:58.520 explicitly intentionally like separatist arguments are frowned upon, and I 2:30:58.920 --> 2:31:03.000 think for good reason, like having each other's backs when 2:31:03.200 --> 2:31:06.480 when the rest of society doesn't, is is necessary and 2:31:06.600 --> 2:31:08.600 it is what we because it's necessary. It is what 2:31:08.640 --> 2:31:08.959 we're doing. 2:31:09.800 --> 2:31:10.000 Yeah. 2:31:10.080 --> 2:31:12.960 Well, and I will say too, like, you know, as 2:31:13.080 --> 2:31:14.440 as as much as there are a lot of SIS 2:31:14.520 --> 2:31:16.160 people who suck, there are a lot of SIS people 2:31:16.320 --> 2:31:18.800 who will have your back and who will fight for you. 2:31:19.080 --> 2:31:21.760 And yep, yeah and like and that and that, and 2:31:21.920 --> 2:31:25.640 I think I think part of like, I think I 2:31:25.720 --> 2:31:29.600 think part of the what what this stuff is about 2:31:29.760 --> 2:31:34.640 to write like is like part part part of the 2:31:34.720 --> 2:31:37.280 culture of fear and the culture of terror that all 2:31:37.320 --> 2:31:41.160 of this stuff is supposed to like is supposed to 2:31:41.200 --> 2:31:43.600 sort of bring it to being, is to make it 2:31:43.879 --> 2:31:47.360 harder for you know of like like there's a sort 2:31:47.400 --> 2:31:48.920 of obvious one of like, Okay, you want to you 2:31:48.959 --> 2:31:51.320 want to force trans people like back into the closet, 2:31:51.320 --> 2:31:53.400 you want to wipe away with the existence. But simultaneously, 2:31:53.480 --> 2:31:55.879 like it is also trying to isolate trans people from 2:31:56.000 --> 2:31:59.520 CIS people who will support them. Sure, and it's effective 2:31:59.560 --> 2:32:04.240 at that, right, but simultaneously like actually working together, we 2:32:04.360 --> 2:32:06.720 are unstoppable. And that's the reason they're doing all of 2:32:06.760 --> 2:32:09.800 this shit. Yes, yes, they have because they have to 2:32:09.840 --> 2:32:10.880 make sure it doesn't happen. 2:32:11.400 --> 2:32:13.400 Yeah, and I think as well, like it might be 2:32:14.520 --> 2:32:17.040 this is on one side of it might feel like 2:32:17.959 --> 2:32:21.200 the uniquely queer side of the divide and conquer experience, 2:32:21.280 --> 2:32:24.000 because like when we say there are so many more 2:32:24.040 --> 2:32:25.880 of us than there are of them, we're talking about 2:32:25.879 --> 2:32:29.160 the working class, or we're talking about human beings around 2:32:29.200 --> 2:32:31.280 the planet as opposed to the ruling class, or we're 2:32:31.320 --> 2:32:34.080 talking about like people of color as opposed to white 2:32:34.120 --> 2:32:36.960 people or whatever. But like the but for queer people, 2:32:37.040 --> 2:32:40.600 it's like we're very conscious that we're actually, yeah, factually 2:32:40.640 --> 2:32:44.200 a minority of the population. But like but yeah, me 2:32:44.400 --> 2:32:46.320 is right, Like there are there are sis people who care. 2:32:46.400 --> 2:32:49.160 There there are says people who authentically care and authentically 2:32:49.520 --> 2:32:52.720 like the very least want to offer support. And one 2:32:52.760 --> 2:32:55.200 thing that I'd say we're working on is like showing 2:32:55.360 --> 2:32:59.520 SIS people the avenues because the channels of support that 2:32:59.560 --> 2:33:04.160 they can go through because when yeah, because like yeah 2:33:04.320 --> 2:33:06.080 that that is the thing about the CIS ally is 2:33:06.120 --> 2:33:08.200 they they may they may, they may care with their 2:33:08.360 --> 2:33:11.360 entire bleeding heart, but they they they're not gonna come 2:33:11.440 --> 2:33:13.440 up with They're usually not going to come up with 2:33:13.600 --> 2:33:15.800 the way to help themselves. And they so they often 2:33:15.879 --> 2:33:18.760 need to be pointed like big neon flashing sign, here's 2:33:18.840 --> 2:33:21.040 how you help, Here's how you go to that. 2:33:21.400 --> 2:33:23.120 You got to you have to guide them, You have 2:33:23.200 --> 2:33:26.920 to guide the missile of the book proletariat interaction. 2:33:27.520 --> 2:33:30.760 Yeah yeah, yeah, to that effect in lieu of just 2:33:30.840 --> 2:33:35.240 telling your audience to uh, you know, form bonds of 2:33:35.280 --> 2:33:37.480 solidarity and mutual able with the quicker community in the UK, 2:33:37.560 --> 2:33:42.200 which like, guys, please you can check out the Good 2:33:42.280 --> 2:33:44.080 Law Project in the UK. They do a lot of 2:33:44.120 --> 2:33:47.080 really important legal work, have already been doing a lot 2:33:47.120 --> 2:33:49.959 of important like legal battles to try to turn back 2:33:50.040 --> 2:33:53.240 this tired of anti trans legislation and court rulings and 2:33:53.280 --> 2:33:57.480 so on, and they they accept donations to to like 2:33:57.560 --> 2:34:00.840 specifically to their fund that relates to trans cases. So 2:34:01.040 --> 2:34:03.640 like you can, if you're a SIS ally and listening 2:34:03.640 --> 2:34:05.520 to this and you have some spare cash, you can 2:34:05.640 --> 2:34:08.160 go look up the Good Law Project and donate to 2:34:08.959 --> 2:34:11.600 help the legal fight at least, because again, like this 2:34:11.879 --> 2:34:15.080 guidance is actually against the law as it stands. So 2:34:15.920 --> 2:34:18.279 I don't know that the Good Law Project has announced 2:34:18.320 --> 2:34:22.680 a fight to stop it yet, but I imagine that 2:34:22.720 --> 2:34:27.080 they will do something of some kind sometime soon. And yeah, 2:34:27.280 --> 2:34:29.600 I mean more support to them will only help. 2:34:30.360 --> 2:34:34.600 Yeah, And speaking of more support, where can people find you? 2:34:35.600 --> 2:34:39.280 Well, I'm Sophie from OZ. I have a video essay 2:34:39.360 --> 2:34:42.760 channel on YouTube. That's my main gig. I have just 2:34:42.959 --> 2:34:46.000 now nearly finished my project The World is Not Ending, 2:34:46.120 --> 2:34:49.840 which is about go figure the climate collapse and what 2:34:50.080 --> 2:34:52.240 is going to happen to us over the next hundred 2:34:52.320 --> 2:34:59.000 years as a planet surprise, not just total extinction, spoiler warning, 2:35:00.200 --> 2:35:05.840 working class revolt. And so it's a oh thanks bit. 2:35:06.520 --> 2:35:08.360 So it's a great time to join my Patreon because 2:35:08.400 --> 2:35:10.840 this project I've been working on for such a such 2:35:10.920 --> 2:35:14.480 a long time is nearly done. I also stream on 2:35:14.560 --> 2:35:17.920 Twitch at Sophie Underscore, FRM Underscore Mars. But speaking of Twitch, 2:35:17.959 --> 2:35:19.720 I think the thing that appeals to your audience the 2:35:19.760 --> 2:35:23.480 most besides that project will be my show Red Planet, 2:35:23.520 --> 2:35:25.920 which I do every Sunday a pm two eleven pm 2:35:26.080 --> 2:35:28.680 UK time on twitch dot tv slash Red Planet Live. 2:35:29.040 --> 2:35:31.880 It's a commy round table where we have four very 2:35:31.920 --> 2:35:35.480 based hosts, usually but not always, talking to some based 2:35:35.520 --> 2:35:39.080 guests who are organizers and activists doing cool stuff to 2:35:39.160 --> 2:35:42.160 make the world a better place. For example, this week 2:35:42.240 --> 2:35:44.040 and so I don't know when this episode's coming out, 2:35:44.080 --> 2:35:47.600 but this week, as we're recording it, we're going to 2:35:47.640 --> 2:35:51.520 have Michael laufer On who helps teaches people how to 2:35:51.560 --> 2:35:53.920 make myth of pristone and miss Aprostel, the at home 2:35:53.959 --> 2:35:57.000 abortion medications for people in places where it's illegal. So 2:35:57.600 --> 2:35:59.320 that's the kind of stuff you can expect on Red Planet. 2:35:59.400 --> 2:36:01.080 Check out Red Plant. It's it's cool. 2:36:02.560 --> 2:36:07.720 Yeah, I think this will be out next like Wednesday 2:36:07.840 --> 2:36:09.280 or something cool. 2:36:09.480 --> 2:36:12.560 But then yeah, then that episode will be up on 2:36:12.800 --> 2:36:16.039 Spotify and yeah youtubel, I've yeah. 2:36:16.520 --> 2:36:18.160 Yeah, this has been it can happen here. You can 2:36:18.200 --> 2:36:20.560 find us on Twitter and Instagram at happen here pod. 2:36:21.120 --> 2:36:23.080 I guess you can find me on Twitter while I'm 2:36:23.320 --> 2:36:27.360 still around at HR three, or just find the Ice 2:36:27.440 --> 2:36:33.280 Must be Destroyed person. Uh yeah, good, go go go go, 2:36:33.480 --> 2:36:36.840 go into the world and make life hell for transferbes 2:36:36.920 --> 2:36:38.839 and the British and American governments. 2:36:39.040 --> 2:36:42.800 Just support support working class, engage in mutual I blah, pipeline. 2:36:42.840 --> 2:37:02.240 Don't like it. There's the door could happen here. It's 2:37:02.280 --> 2:37:07.440 the show where we hate McDonald's. I'm your host, be 2:37:07.520 --> 2:37:11.440 a long professional McDonald's hater, and with me to talk 2:37:11.520 --> 2:37:15.560 about hating McDonald's is Mira, who's a freelance journalist, and 2:37:15.560 --> 2:37:17.959 you need an organizer. Mira, Welcome to the show. 2:37:18.800 --> 2:37:20.440 It's great to be here. Thank you for having me. 2:37:21.440 --> 2:37:24.440 Yeah, so okay, So specifically, there are lots of the 2:37:25.000 --> 2:37:29.039 hating McDonald's is like an ancient anarchist tradition. I think 2:37:29.200 --> 2:37:31.119 I'm actually not sure how well it is known today, 2:37:31.120 --> 2:37:34.520 but I'm about eighty percent sure that the tradition of 2:37:34.560 --> 2:37:38.320 breaking Starbucks windows was actually originally like a it was 2:37:38.360 --> 2:37:41.879 actually originally a thing about breaking like it came from 2:37:42.040 --> 2:37:44.640 like a bunch of campaigns I think it definitely in France. 2:37:44.640 --> 2:37:47.840 I think also in Mexico that like anytime a Starbucks, Starbucks, 2:37:47.920 --> 2:37:50.600 Jesus Christ, anytiving McDonald's would open up, everyone would immediately 2:37:50.600 --> 2:37:51.600 start breaking the windows. 2:37:52.840 --> 2:37:55.240 That's the only proper way to handle on McDonald's. 2:37:55.520 --> 2:38:02.320 And yeah, professional, but the reason we're talking about McDonald's 2:38:02.440 --> 2:38:04.840 is that, Yeah, you tried to organize in McDonald's union, 2:38:04.879 --> 2:38:06.160 which is I guess the other thing you could do 2:38:06.200 --> 2:38:08.959 with the McDonald's other than lighting it on fire, which 2:38:09.120 --> 2:38:14.440 is maybe you could, Oh, I guess, I guess there 2:38:14.440 --> 2:38:16.160 are those people in France who took it over and 2:38:16.240 --> 2:38:18.200 turned it into like a food co op or something. 2:38:18.640 --> 2:38:21.720 But a third thing you can do with it, discovered 2:38:21.840 --> 2:38:24.000 a third A third thing to do with the McDonald's. 2:38:24.040 --> 2:38:28.720 Let's hit the towers. Yeah, but yeah, I wanted to 2:38:28.800 --> 2:38:33.800 talk about I guess what you know, Okay, I wanted 2:38:33.800 --> 2:38:36.760 to use Yeah, so you've written a very good piece 2:38:36.800 --> 2:38:41.280 about this in Strange Matters called by mcunion that is 2:38:41.360 --> 2:38:43.280 really good, and I wanted to talk about sort of 2:38:43.760 --> 2:38:46.680 the piece, the sort of nitty gritty aspect of like 2:38:46.800 --> 2:38:49.720 what it's like to organize a union, and also just 2:38:49.800 --> 2:38:53.320 about McDonald's because Jesus Christ, good. 2:38:53.200 --> 2:38:57.560 Lord, No, I have so much to talk about, so 2:38:57.800 --> 2:38:58.680 more than happy too. 2:38:59.640 --> 2:39:01.880 Yeah, so I guess, okay, I think I think we 2:39:01.879 --> 2:39:04.800 should start with just the sort of McDonald's miss of 2:39:04.920 --> 2:39:08.640 it all. I wanted to start with just talking a 2:39:08.720 --> 2:39:11.240 bit about what it's actually like to work on a 2:39:11.320 --> 2:39:16.039 McDonald's because I, well, okay, a, I feel like it's 2:39:16.040 --> 2:39:18.480 not actually universal experience anymore, for like people who have 2:39:18.600 --> 2:39:21.760 worked at a fast food restaurant, and b I think 2:39:23.000 --> 2:39:25.760 people who it's it's the thing you blought out of 2:39:25.800 --> 2:39:31.119 your collective memory very quickly because it sucked. But yeah, yeah, 2:39:31.200 --> 2:39:33.520 so like, okay, so what what is it actually like 2:39:33.680 --> 2:39:37.680 when you you show up to your shift? So McDonald's 2:39:37.760 --> 2:39:40.320 was my first job, and it was a hell of 2:39:40.360 --> 2:39:44.000 an introduction. Yes, the moment you would come in, you 2:39:44.040 --> 2:39:48.920 would be most days bombarded with constant orders on the 2:39:49.000 --> 2:39:51.800 screen because they had these little screens both in the 2:39:52.200 --> 2:39:55.600 front and back drill areas that like showed all the 2:39:55.760 --> 2:39:59.959 orders they had, and like a good sixty seventy percent 2:40:00.120 --> 2:40:02.520 at the time I came in, people would just be 2:40:02.720 --> 2:40:05.680 swamped with orders. They'd be running around being like, oh, 2:40:06.080 --> 2:40:07.880 thank god, you hear we need someone to get on 2:40:08.040 --> 2:40:09.800 right now, and it's like you don't even get a 2:40:09.840 --> 2:40:12.800 moment to breathe. Like, as you're standing there waiting to 2:40:12.879 --> 2:40:15.560 clock in on their punching machine, you're just like, oh, 2:40:15.640 --> 2:40:19.720 dear God, I'm gonna have a fucking terrible time. And 2:40:20.040 --> 2:40:22.760 as you're running around, you know, cooking everything after you 2:40:22.879 --> 2:40:26.440 clock in, you're getting streamed at by your bosses right 2:40:26.480 --> 2:40:29.320 by you because they're like, oh, no, customer complained because 2:40:29.360 --> 2:40:32.359 there was too many pickles on their sandwich. 2:40:33.800 --> 2:40:36.560 And then you'll hear someone yelling from the drive through 2:40:36.600 --> 2:40:39.160 window on top of that, and then you might have 2:40:39.360 --> 2:40:41.880 people at the front counter. This is before proven, so 2:40:42.680 --> 2:40:45.440 McDonald's still had front counters when people would come in. 2:40:46.400 --> 2:40:49.039 I don't know if every McDonald's does, but everyone i've 2:40:49.080 --> 2:40:52.600 been too since has just closed down internally, and I 2:40:52.879 --> 2:40:57.520 envied that. But you would have people yelling from there, 2:40:57.879 --> 2:41:00.520 and if you were one of the unfortunate that souls 2:41:00.560 --> 2:41:03.440 who ended up working directly facing the customers and not 2:41:03.720 --> 2:41:06.480 just cooking, you would be the one getting screamed at 2:41:06.680 --> 2:41:10.600 by all parties involved. I later worked at a Windy's 2:41:10.879 --> 2:41:14.520 where I got a taste of that and I walked 2:41:14.560 --> 2:41:15.800 out three days into March. 2:41:17.800 --> 2:41:24.040 Yeah. Stuff sucks. Yeah, And I think that, you know, 2:41:24.200 --> 2:41:26.800 I think like one of the things I think like 2:41:26.879 --> 2:41:30.640 compounds this is, you know, okay, I will I will, 2:41:30.720 --> 2:41:32.640 I will, I will do a theory which is that 2:41:32.760 --> 2:41:39.760 I think people have a really weird understanding of what 2:41:39.959 --> 2:41:42.800 it means to have a job on a sort of 2:41:42.840 --> 2:41:46.520 theoretical level that dates back to a genuinely, very weird 2:41:46.640 --> 2:41:49.480 period in the twentieth century where people actually had like 2:41:49.760 --> 2:41:53.200 stable hours. Yeah, and that's just not how any of 2:41:53.280 --> 2:41:56.800 this works, right, Like you you know, you like, there 2:41:57.040 --> 2:41:59.120 is no actual stable amount of hours. You just get 2:41:59.280 --> 2:42:02.920 you get some number of hours like a week that 2:42:02.959 --> 2:42:04.480 you're assigned to. But then you know, but this the 2:42:04.680 --> 2:42:07.120 least to do a thing that we've oh god like, 2:42:07.200 --> 2:42:09.879 like literally every single field we've talked about unidizing has 2:42:09.920 --> 2:42:13.400 this problem, which is just understaffing, because why the fuck 2:42:13.440 --> 2:42:15.440 would you have enough people to do a job. Would 2:42:15.440 --> 2:42:16.840 you could have less than enough people to do a 2:42:16.959 --> 2:42:18.320 job and pave them less. 2:42:20.640 --> 2:42:24.199 That That was my experience a McDonald and fast food 2:42:24.240 --> 2:42:28.080 in general. You would get such inconsistent numbers of hours 2:42:28.160 --> 2:42:30.320 that you wouldn't know how much money you'd be making 2:42:30.720 --> 2:42:33.200 in the month, because for all you know, this month, 2:42:33.280 --> 2:42:36.560 you could be working you know, every regular day, every 2:42:36.600 --> 2:42:39.920 business day of the week. You could be working only weekends, 2:42:40.879 --> 2:42:44.240 or you could be like I was after the union 2:42:44.320 --> 2:42:50.560 got busted spoiler alert, uh, working three hours on Sundays 2:42:50.640 --> 2:42:53.840 in the mornings. And that's it if they really wanted to. 2:42:54.120 --> 2:42:58.640 And there's nothing that outside of a union you can 2:42:58.720 --> 2:43:02.080 do to prevent them from and outside of you know, 2:43:02.240 --> 2:43:05.720 niche legal areas where you can maybe push back, you 2:43:05.800 --> 2:43:07.720 can't really do much if they decide just not to 2:43:07.800 --> 2:43:13.400 staff you. And there is people working there who they 2:43:13.440 --> 2:43:17.600 had like full blown kids, families relying on them in 2:43:17.720 --> 2:43:20.720 that job. They weren't making much. Pennsylvania minimum wage was 2:43:20.760 --> 2:43:23.400 seven twenty five and you know they were paying us that, Yeah, 2:43:24.320 --> 2:43:26.520 and so from what little they could get, they would 2:43:26.520 --> 2:43:28.880 maybe get like at best a one hundred bucks a 2:43:28.959 --> 2:43:32.640 week with their hours, unless they were able to get 2:43:32.680 --> 2:43:35.760 into like a managerial position where it's the only one 2:43:35.760 --> 2:43:39.200 where you'd be kind of guaranteed ours in the sense 2:43:39.280 --> 2:43:42.000 that they desperately need you, so they throwing you on whatever. 2:43:43.920 --> 2:43:47.400 Beyond that, it's you also don't know the days you're 2:43:47.400 --> 2:43:48.360 going to work too. 2:43:48.600 --> 2:43:48.800 Yeah. 2:43:48.840 --> 2:43:49.040 Yeah. 2:43:49.080 --> 2:43:50.920 This thing I was gonna ask is like, what, like 2:43:51.280 --> 2:43:55.200 how how much time do you have between finding out 2:43:55.240 --> 2:43:57.000 you're going to be on a shift and then like 2:43:57.200 --> 2:43:58.000 being on the shift. 2:43:59.560 --> 2:44:05.320 You can have anywhere from several days notice to under 2:44:05.400 --> 2:44:10.039 twelve hours notice, and there is no way to predict 2:44:10.080 --> 2:44:11.680 what's going to happen the next week. Is it all 2:44:11.680 --> 2:44:13.960 depends on when you're going to get staffed. There were 2:44:14.080 --> 2:44:20.000 points I found out day out when I was going 2:44:20.080 --> 2:44:20.920 to be working. 2:44:22.640 --> 2:44:26.560 Jesus Christ. Yeah yeah, and like this, I mean, this 2:44:26.640 --> 2:44:29.320 is the thing that like is becoming. This is the 2:44:29.400 --> 2:44:33.560 way that labor used to work in like the eighteen hundreds, 2:44:34.680 --> 2:44:36.200 and then you know, it was just sort of like 2:44:36.280 --> 2:44:38.960 phased out because it turns out this is actually a 2:44:39.040 --> 2:44:44.240 stunningly inefficient way to actually like like run a business. 2:44:44.800 --> 2:44:48.959 But you know, we've reached the thing that happened at 2:44:49.000 --> 2:44:51.080 the end of history. Is it's not the history ended. 2:44:51.080 --> 2:44:55.360 It's that like capital needing to be efficient ended, and 2:44:55.400 --> 2:44:57.720 now they just like do this shit. And it's like, well, okay, 2:44:57.879 --> 2:44:59.720 so it doesn't matter if this is like a terribly 2:44:59.720 --> 2:45:03.400 a dificient way to run things. It's you just like 2:45:03.680 --> 2:45:05.840 it's it's it's it's a mechanism designed to just like 2:45:05.959 --> 2:45:11.040 absolutely destroyed like the sort of psyches and lives of 2:45:11.080 --> 2:45:13.000 the people who are doing the thing. 2:45:13.800 --> 2:45:19.000 Yeah, that is completely accurate. They do not give a 2:45:19.160 --> 2:45:22.880 rat's ass about anyone working there. For a second, Everyone 2:45:23.000 --> 2:45:27.840 working there is completely expendable, even if they're a manager. 2:45:29.520 --> 2:45:32.000 There's been points people have worked there for like three 2:45:32.080 --> 2:45:35.240 four months and got promoted to a manager. There's everyone 2:45:35.360 --> 2:45:39.680 is expendable, and they they make sure you know that too. 2:45:40.160 --> 2:45:44.119 And how they treat you. You're not treated with any dignity, 2:45:44.200 --> 2:45:49.040 with any respect. You're just completely thrown around at their 2:45:49.120 --> 2:45:53.240 whims and the whims of upper management, you know, the 2:45:54.360 --> 2:46:02.920 regional managers and the like. And it's it's awful because 2:46:03.480 --> 2:46:06.400 how they get away with that model is they know 2:46:06.520 --> 2:46:09.640 there's always going to be some people who are desperate 2:46:09.680 --> 2:46:12.920 to work at McDonald's, either because they're young and need 2:46:13.000 --> 2:46:18.920 to get a first job, or they're down on their 2:46:19.040 --> 2:46:22.040 luck and need to get something to pay the bills. 2:46:23.840 --> 2:46:28.880 I've even hitting hard times trying to reapply at McDonald's 2:46:29.240 --> 2:46:33.440 since working there because I needed to pay the bill. 2:46:33.560 --> 2:46:39.160 I was in that exact position again, and fairly recently, 2:46:39.920 --> 2:46:44.360 and so it's it's not a fun place to be, 2:46:45.000 --> 2:46:48.280 to put it mildly. Yeah, of course they didn't let 2:46:48.320 --> 2:46:51.800 me work there again because I believe I'm banned from 2:46:51.840 --> 2:46:53.240 ever working at a McDonald's again. 2:46:53.720 --> 2:46:57.280 Yeah, that's it. That's another thing that I think is 2:46:57.920 --> 2:47:00.680 not that well understood, like loss of companies have basically 2:47:01.200 --> 2:47:03.680 not even like there are there are people that I 2:47:03.800 --> 2:47:07.720 know who are blacklisted, like from ship they did dream Occupy, 2:47:08.800 --> 2:47:12.960 like people like yeah, like like that there these these things. 2:47:13.520 --> 2:47:16.040 These things suck and if you like, you know, this 2:47:16.160 --> 2:47:18.840 is I guess one of the sort of issues of 2:47:18.959 --> 2:47:21.120 doing any kind of organizing is that like if you lose, 2:47:21.520 --> 2:47:25.520 like stuff can go like very badly for you, which sucks. 2:47:25.760 --> 2:47:28.360 But also simultaneously, if you don't organize things we go 2:47:28.520 --> 2:47:31.680 very badly for you. So it's you know, so it's 2:47:31.720 --> 2:47:35.760 a double Yeah, yeah, I guess the just one everything 2:47:35.800 --> 2:47:37.440 I wanted to ask, which I don't know if you 2:47:37.480 --> 2:47:40.200 know do you do you know if you're if you're uh, 2:47:40.840 --> 2:47:42.720 if you're McDonald's was a franchise if it was like 2:47:42.840 --> 2:47:44.760 actually owned by the company. 2:47:45.600 --> 2:47:49.440 So yes, it was a franchise. It wasn't done by 2:47:49.560 --> 2:47:55.600 like the official company in any major sense. I actually 2:47:55.920 --> 2:47:58.560 met the franchise owner during the course of the union, 2:48:00.000 --> 2:48:02.800 which was a fun time when we were in the 2:48:02.840 --> 2:48:04.119 process of getting busted. 2:48:04.920 --> 2:48:09.440 Oh boy, yeah, So do you want to explain what 2:48:09.879 --> 2:48:13.040 a franchise is? And I guess, like how that sort 2:48:13.080 --> 2:48:13.680 of model works. 2:48:14.600 --> 2:48:19.959 Yeah, So most McDonald's out there are franchises, which basically 2:48:20.160 --> 2:48:26.119 means McDonald's will kind of let independent people buy out 2:48:26.160 --> 2:48:30.039 their stores and own and manage them in a certain 2:48:30.440 --> 2:48:37.960 region for a portion of the profits. In the Scranton area, 2:48:38.800 --> 2:48:43.160 which was where I did the union, they were all 2:48:43.440 --> 2:48:49.480 owned by one single family who was ultra rich, in 2:48:49.600 --> 2:48:51.720 part because of the McDonald's and in part because of 2:48:51.800 --> 2:49:02.080 family inheritances, and these folk they would be the kind 2:49:02.120 --> 2:49:05.720 of be treated as like the head Honchow's the same 2:49:05.800 --> 2:49:09.120 way that CEOs get talked about at most companies. They 2:49:09.160 --> 2:49:11.640 weren't the CEOs, of course, but like as far as 2:49:11.879 --> 2:49:15.200 in terms of managing great distrant and area McDonald's went, 2:49:15.600 --> 2:49:18.920 they were the main ones in charge. Of course, McDonald's 2:49:18.959 --> 2:49:23.640 corporate always had the final say over everything, but they 2:49:23.840 --> 2:49:27.520 manage tens of thousands of restaurants across the world, so 2:49:27.560 --> 2:49:29.720 they don't really get involved in any of the nitty gritty, 2:49:29.879 --> 2:49:33.920 which is why they kind of let people own these franchises. 2:49:34.959 --> 2:49:38.759 Yeah, which I think is really interesting. It's like they've 2:49:38.840 --> 2:49:41.640 managed to somehow combine like the worst aspects of working 2:49:41.680 --> 2:49:43.920 for a major corporation with the worst aspects of working 2:49:43.959 --> 2:49:47.400 for like a small business tyrant. Which it's interesting to 2:49:47.400 --> 2:49:50.080 you because it's like, I don't know, because this is 2:49:50.120 --> 2:49:51.720 like one of the weird things about McDonald because like 2:49:51.760 --> 2:49:55.640 McDonald's McDonald's corporate doesn't make money from Hamburger's. They're basically 2:49:55.680 --> 2:49:59.080 a real estate company that like sells franchises to people, 2:50:00.480 --> 2:50:03.640 but but simultaneous. But that means that like they can 2:50:04.040 --> 2:50:07.080 do things, like they can force their franchises to do 2:50:07.200 --> 2:50:09.480 things that are like unprofitable because it doesn't matter to them, 2:50:10.320 --> 2:50:13.520 Like there's they're still getting paid, Like they're still getting 2:50:13.560 --> 2:50:17.880 paid their like licensing like franchising fees or whatever, like 2:50:18.040 --> 2:50:21.320 no matter what sort of like shit is happening there. Yeah, 2:50:21.560 --> 2:50:24.400 and that's I don't know, it's it strikes me as 2:50:24.440 --> 2:50:26.960 like a really interesting. It strikes me as like the 2:50:27.040 --> 2:50:29.240 exact arrangement that's like the most likely to create a 2:50:29.280 --> 2:50:33.200 fascist just like because like like you know, you have 2:50:33.320 --> 2:50:34.960 a group of people like and I think I think 2:50:35.000 --> 2:50:36.560 it's a good agm with this. This is what like 2:50:37.000 --> 2:50:39.840 quote unquote economic anxiety is. Is you have like a 2:50:40.080 --> 2:50:41.480 you have like you have a sort of middle level 2:50:42.040 --> 2:50:44.280 of like this, you know, the middle level of person 2:50:44.320 --> 2:50:46.440 who is a capitalist but is also getting squeezed from 2:50:46.480 --> 2:50:50.000 the top down like by a by larger corporations and 2:50:50.040 --> 2:50:52.400 then also is facing bought about pressure from workers. And 2:50:52.480 --> 2:50:56.200 so their solution to this is just like ruthlessly, like 2:50:57.320 --> 2:51:00.240 you know, just just like ruthlessly do a fashion them 2:51:00.280 --> 2:51:03.160 against like everyone who's working for them. 2:51:04.200 --> 2:51:07.280 Yeah, you scratch a liberal and the fascist leads. Yeah, 2:51:07.480 --> 2:51:13.440 it's more true than McDonald's and fast food really than anywhere. Yeah, 2:51:14.600 --> 2:51:16.480 the mcfascists reign supreme. 2:51:18.280 --> 2:51:24.039 So speaking of mcfascists, the products and services these are too. 2:51:24.160 --> 2:51:29.440 These are two distinct sentences. They are not related. FCC please, 2:51:29.920 --> 2:51:33.560 actually no, fuck you. The SCC doesn't well no, no, 2:51:33.840 --> 2:51:35.840 the SCC. The SEC does not regulate us. I think 2:51:35.879 --> 2:51:38.959 we're actually regulated by the FTC. So fuck the SEC. 2:51:39.640 --> 2:51:41.560 That's why I could swear on this podcast because they 2:51:41.600 --> 2:51:48.000 don't recomplain us. And we're back Okay. So, having having 2:51:48.080 --> 2:51:50.960 returned to more mcfascism, Yeah, okay, So I guess we 2:51:51.240 --> 2:51:56.000 should start talking about how the union organizing started and 2:51:56.879 --> 2:52:02.920 how I guess the sort of immediate mistake that y'all 2:52:03.040 --> 2:52:06.640 made attempting to get this, to get this off the ground. Yeah, 2:52:07.480 --> 2:52:08.360 so it. 2:52:08.480 --> 2:52:11.960 Started with me. I was the first one there to 2:52:12.040 --> 2:52:16.440 bring up the concept of reunion because then I was 2:52:16.600 --> 2:52:21.360 like only seventeen. I was new to anarchism still, and 2:52:21.560 --> 2:52:26.640 so I was young, green, and eager to get shit done. 2:52:27.680 --> 2:52:29.080 I still am all the above. 2:52:32.280 --> 2:52:34.920 Yeah, but. 2:52:37.400 --> 2:52:42.600 I had a few contacts to local IWW people through 2:52:42.840 --> 2:52:47.640 just the very very faint activist networks that were up there, 2:52:47.800 --> 2:52:50.120 and by faint, I mean a total of like five people. 2:52:52.400 --> 2:52:59.480 So I got cut in contact with the IWW guy. 2:53:01.600 --> 2:53:05.920 I believe. I used the name Mark. Yes, I used 2:53:05.920 --> 2:53:08.480 the name Mark in the article to protect his anonymity, 2:53:08.560 --> 2:53:13.640 so I'll just keep consistency. And Mark was the one 2:53:14.560 --> 2:53:21.960 who convinced me to take more major steps. He was 2:53:22.040 --> 2:53:24.680 the one who I talked to and got consultation about it, 2:53:24.800 --> 2:53:26.800 and he was the one who gave all that initial guidance. 2:53:28.040 --> 2:53:29.920 And there was a few friends of mine I had 2:53:30.000 --> 2:53:37.480 there there also not really anarchists. Most of them were 2:53:37.600 --> 2:53:40.840 just like your soci Dems, but they were They were 2:53:40.920 --> 2:53:44.040 eager to get something done and help out, so you know, 2:53:44.480 --> 2:53:47.160 I can't complain there. And it was like a small 2:53:47.240 --> 2:53:49.840 core group of us who all wanted to get involved 2:53:50.480 --> 2:53:53.800 and get this album done, and we had never done 2:53:54.000 --> 2:54:00.360 anything like this before. Northeast Pennsylvania does have a strong 2:54:00.560 --> 2:54:05.480 history of unions there, but we were not part of 2:54:05.560 --> 2:54:18.279 that history initially, and so it ended up going south unfortunately. 2:54:19.360 --> 2:54:26.720 Pretty it went well at first, but I think some 2:54:26.879 --> 2:54:30.800 of the main issues we had in hindsight doing things, 2:54:33.200 --> 2:54:36.680 especially now having more experience union organizing under my belt, 2:54:38.920 --> 2:54:44.959 in hindsight, we rushed things way too much. We were 2:54:46.080 --> 2:54:51.199 trying to get everyone on board. We didn't do sufficient 2:54:51.280 --> 2:54:55.120 one on one conversations with people, we didn't do sufficient 2:54:59.360 --> 2:55:03.120 intel gather, and we didn't we relied too much on 2:55:03.200 --> 2:55:07.240 our technical tools and left too much incrimitating evidence that 2:55:07.280 --> 2:55:10.760 we trusted too many people with. We didn't really have 2:55:10.879 --> 2:55:14.080 a strong way of going about it that would have 2:55:14.240 --> 2:55:16.880 been better to what we were doing. 2:55:17.680 --> 2:55:19.400 Yeah, and I guess this comes to one and I 2:55:19.440 --> 2:55:21.720 think of the main things that you're talking about here 2:55:21.760 --> 2:55:23.280 and I think is one of the main things about 2:55:24.560 --> 2:55:26.560 you know, union organizing that like like pretty much no 2:55:26.680 --> 2:55:33.920 matter who you talk to wright politically, the the things 2:55:33.959 --> 2:55:36.360 that are important to get a union to work are 2:55:36.520 --> 2:55:40.800 kind of similar, which is that, Yeah, like it's usually 2:55:40.840 --> 2:55:43.600 a very slow process. It's a process of building relationships, 2:55:43.640 --> 2:55:48.240 and it's a process of figuring out who in your work, well, 2:55:48.280 --> 2:55:50.040 who in your work pays people sort of trust and 2:55:50.160 --> 2:55:54.600 respect and like make friends with and figuring out how 2:55:54.800 --> 2:55:56.480 to sort of how to get them involved in how 2:55:56.560 --> 2:56:01.120 to get I don't know how how unions are not 2:56:01.200 --> 2:56:03.080 just sort of like abstract things like they're they're they're 2:56:03.240 --> 2:56:05.840 they're built of actual like social relationships that you have 2:56:06.000 --> 2:56:09.200 with another person and another and other gifts and in 2:56:09.200 --> 2:56:11.039 the relationships that they have with other people, et cetera, 2:56:11.080 --> 2:56:16.800 et cetera. Yeah, Yeah, I wanted to ask about how, how, okay, 2:56:16.840 --> 2:56:18.920 when when when you were sort of starting to do 2:56:19.120 --> 2:56:22.720 this right, how, how were you sort of identifying the 2:56:22.800 --> 2:56:25.760 people you needed to talk to and what kinds of 2:56:26.120 --> 2:56:28.360 things were you doing to try to get them involved 2:56:28.400 --> 2:56:31.320 and try to like map out how the workplace functioned. 2:56:32.400 --> 2:56:36.600 So the first people identify were people that I thought 2:56:36.879 --> 2:56:39.720 I could trust, and the core group of people I 2:56:39.840 --> 2:56:42.840 had were folk that in regards to the union, I 2:56:44.080 --> 2:56:47.040 in hindsight, was a trust. We all agreed on the 2:56:47.080 --> 2:56:49.080 same issues, and we all had the kind of similar 2:56:49.200 --> 2:56:52.240 more gung ho attitude. I think me definitely the most 2:56:52.280 --> 2:56:55.440 out of everyone. We fell into a pitfall where I 2:56:55.640 --> 2:56:58.840 was kind of pushing the union by myself for a bit, 2:56:59.440 --> 2:57:04.640 which is definitely easy to fall into. Yeah, But we 2:57:06.120 --> 2:57:10.080 in terms of identifying the workplace leaders, the natural leaders 2:57:10.200 --> 2:57:15.640 found there, we mostly relied on conversations with Mark to 2:57:15.840 --> 2:57:18.000 do that. We talked with him about who worked there. 2:57:18.240 --> 2:57:21.840 We gave a brief list of everyone who worked there, 2:57:22.680 --> 2:57:26.039 and we kind of just pinpointed them the specific people 2:57:26.080 --> 2:57:29.600 we saw as leaders and left spent that And I mean, 2:57:30.200 --> 2:57:33.800 as far as basic charting goes, it wasn't terrible, but 2:57:33.959 --> 2:57:36.440 there is definitely a lot to be desired and it 2:57:36.480 --> 2:57:38.360 could have been far more fleshed out. 2:57:39.000 --> 2:57:40.760 What do you think that would have looked like? Or 2:57:40.840 --> 2:57:42.040 you know, what does that look like? In sort of 2:57:42.160 --> 2:57:44.880 like other campaigns that you've run that were like the 2:57:44.959 --> 2:57:46.520 first one you ever tried to do at. 2:57:46.520 --> 2:57:52.080 Seventeen, so charting as I would do it now It 2:57:52.120 --> 2:57:55.040 should be done from the start before even approaching the 2:57:55.120 --> 2:58:00.400 first person unless you extremely trust the person and like 2:58:01.200 --> 2:58:05.080 you are just bonded for life, you know you can't 2:58:05.120 --> 2:58:08.160 go without them unless you have like really deep trust 2:58:08.200 --> 2:58:10.760 with the person. Initially, you shouldn't approach anyone of them 2:58:11.240 --> 2:58:15.640 going into it. You should start off with if you 2:58:15.760 --> 2:58:18.480 can reaching out to an IWW REP. But if you 2:58:18.680 --> 2:58:22.480 can't make a detailed chart of who's in your workplace, 2:58:23.280 --> 2:58:26.760 what positions they're at, what team they're on, like in 2:58:26.920 --> 2:58:33.360 terms of if they're on one person's managed area or 2:58:33.440 --> 2:58:39.560 another person's managed area, you should should figure out who 2:58:39.600 --> 2:58:45.160 they're close to, who they listen to, relevant demographic information, 2:58:45.320 --> 2:58:49.840 because you want your unions to be intersectional, and you 2:58:50.080 --> 2:58:53.920 want to be able to figure out, above all else, 2:58:55.280 --> 2:58:58.920 whether or not you've had a away from work one 2:58:59.000 --> 2:59:03.280 on one with them, and whether or not you've had 2:59:04.080 --> 2:59:06.920 any talks with them prior about unions and where they 2:59:07.000 --> 2:59:09.640 might stand on unions. Do you want to document all that? 2:59:09.959 --> 2:59:12.480 And it doesn't have to be the most detail. You 2:59:12.560 --> 2:59:16.360 can just do a spreadsheet with it, but it can 2:59:16.400 --> 2:59:20.600 definitely be a lot to document. And it's it's no joke, 2:59:21.080 --> 2:59:23.800 it's not something that should be rushed. It's not fun. 2:59:24.480 --> 2:59:27.600 I you know, there's there's nothing really that's a blast 2:59:28.440 --> 2:59:31.800 about trying to sit there and be like, ah, yes, 2:59:31.920 --> 2:59:35.880 let me fill out paperwork about my workplace employees. But 2:59:36.840 --> 2:59:40.800 it will come back and save you so many times 2:59:40.879 --> 2:59:44.000 and give help you formulate strategies for going forward. 2:59:44.480 --> 2:59:45.360 And we. 2:59:47.320 --> 2:59:49.880 Rush things and talk did things like talking to people 2:59:50.360 --> 2:59:52.680 on the workplace floor and just said, hey, do you 2:59:52.720 --> 2:59:55.120 want to do a union? Yeah, and call that a 2:59:55.200 --> 2:59:59.879 day and said that was one on one and it wasn't. 3:00:00.320 --> 3:00:02.840 Yeah, should we explain what one on one like is 3:00:02.879 --> 3:00:03.440 supposed to be? 3:00:04.440 --> 3:00:09.800 Yeah, So one on one is. It doesn't necessarily have 3:00:09.879 --> 3:00:11.440 to be on one on one, but it should be 3:00:11.640 --> 3:00:19.160 between at least a union organizer and another person. It 3:00:19.240 --> 3:00:24.160 could potentially be another more seasoned organizer helping be a 3:00:24.240 --> 3:00:27.720 more noviced one along with during the one on one. 3:00:28.360 --> 3:00:33.640 That could be a thing, But ideally they are just 3:00:34.440 --> 3:00:39.440 one or two organizers talking to one workplace employee about 3:00:41.360 --> 3:00:46.920 initially anyway, just a non committal discussion on where what 3:00:47.120 --> 3:00:50.560 their issues are in the workplace, what grievances they might have, 3:00:51.280 --> 3:00:57.520 and what their current stances on workplace organizing. 3:00:58.320 --> 3:01:00.440 Yeah, Okay, And another think I want to sort of 3:01:00.440 --> 3:01:05.000 get into is the role of like having having a 3:01:05.040 --> 3:01:07.160 way to talk to people outside of work and having 3:01:07.280 --> 3:01:10.360 just sort of a collaborative space where people talk about 3:01:10.400 --> 3:01:12.560 and I think this is something that like, I don't know, 3:01:13.760 --> 3:01:14.920 I think this this is you know, this is one 3:01:14.920 --> 3:01:16.800 of the big things. I think that that this is 3:01:16.879 --> 3:01:19.039 one of the big things that's changed in the past, 3:01:19.640 --> 3:01:21.880 you know, maybe like decade and a half or so. 3:01:24.440 --> 3:01:27.320 Is that how like the the the actual space in 3:01:27.400 --> 3:01:30.800 which people talk about a union like tends on to 3:01:30.840 --> 3:01:33.440 be a physical space anymore. It tends to be sort 3:01:33.480 --> 3:01:36.680 of either like a signal chat or like a Facebook chat, 3:01:36.840 --> 3:01:39.720 like a I guess what'sapp technically is owned by Facebook, 3:01:39.920 --> 3:01:42.920 but yeah, and so yeah, I want to talk a 3:01:43.000 --> 3:01:45.120 bit about that, and also I guess get into the 3:01:45.160 --> 3:01:47.520 sort of security problems that you can have with this, 3:01:47.840 --> 3:01:53.119 because yeah, yeah, there's so that's what we did. 3:01:53.520 --> 3:01:57.760 We had a group chat on Facebook Messenger to talk 3:01:57.800 --> 3:02:01.320 to everyone about the union and everything like that. And 3:02:02.560 --> 3:02:06.240 there's a lot of pros to having a centralized group chat. 3:02:06.320 --> 3:02:08.800 Don't get me wrong. It makes an easy way to 3:02:08.840 --> 3:02:11.240 communicate when you're trying to take actions to other people. 3:02:12.040 --> 3:02:17.160 It can be helpful to do any last minute coordination needed, 3:02:17.920 --> 3:02:19.920 It can be useful to make sure everyone's on the 3:02:19.959 --> 3:02:25.520 same page, but there's also major drawbacks to it. One, 3:02:25.600 --> 3:02:28.879 as you mentioned, there's big privacy concerns, and we ran 3:02:28.959 --> 3:02:35.680 into that during the campaign. If with anything organizing, you're 3:02:35.720 --> 3:02:39.240 only as secure as your weakest link, And if you 3:02:39.400 --> 3:02:42.360 have people you do not completely one hundred percent trust 3:02:42.400 --> 3:02:47.840 in your group chat, someone could leak everything, either wittingly 3:02:48.120 --> 3:02:52.080 or unwittingly. In our case it was wittingly, but you 3:02:52.280 --> 3:02:55.000 very well could have someone who isn't being careful and 3:02:55.200 --> 3:02:59.280 might show the group chat to someone else who they 3:02:59.320 --> 3:03:03.560 shouldn't accident And unless everyone's on the same page about 3:03:04.160 --> 3:03:09.560 best security practices, you're not going to get very far 3:03:09.879 --> 3:03:15.560 with having that. And for another, doing any form of 3:03:15.720 --> 3:03:20.920 organizing over texts and a major capacity is really hard. Yeah, 3:03:21.840 --> 3:03:26.800 there's so many issues with like making sure people are 3:03:27.040 --> 3:03:32.080 understanding their tone and undercommunicating properly and just meeting each 3:03:32.120 --> 3:03:34.480 other on the same level that you really can't do 3:03:34.680 --> 3:03:40.160 over text like you can do in person. If a 3:03:40.280 --> 3:03:43.680 text medium should, in my view, only be there to 3:03:43.800 --> 3:03:48.600 facilitate interactions that are later done at best in person, 3:03:49.320 --> 3:03:52.959 but if not, they can be done through like video calls. 3:03:53.280 --> 3:03:56.280 Yeah, And like as much as zoom can be really annoying, like, 3:03:56.879 --> 3:03:59.480 it is way more productive than trying to do things 3:03:59.480 --> 3:04:03.240 two text. Like yeah, just like having just like just 3:04:03.320 --> 3:04:06.560 like having a weekly zoom meeting. You know, like like 3:04:06.640 --> 3:04:08.840 there there's there's a lot of like cases where you like, 3:04:08.879 --> 3:04:11.080 you know, you literally physically can't like be in the 3:04:11.120 --> 3:04:14.560 same place, and you know, and if if that's that's 3:04:14.600 --> 3:04:17.400 the thing you're dealing with, like, yeah, doing video calls 3:04:17.600 --> 3:04:23.080 and stuff like that makes it way way easier, for sure. 3:04:23.560 --> 3:04:29.040 It It is a way better medium to do anything 3:04:29.440 --> 3:04:35.600 union related with. And it's also much easier to bond 3:04:35.680 --> 3:04:39.520 with people over video chat too, And that's a huge 3:04:39.600 --> 3:04:43.360 part of the union is connecting with your other your 3:04:43.400 --> 3:04:48.240 pillow workers and meeting each other on that same level 3:04:48.520 --> 3:04:53.120 and bonded over your shared interests, over your share what 3:04:53.320 --> 3:04:57.560 you desire from union, what you desire from your workplace. 3:04:59.480 --> 3:05:03.119 You can't really do that easily anyway over text. I'm 3:05:03.120 --> 3:05:06.520 sure someone somewhere has done it, but it's not recommended 3:05:06.640 --> 3:05:07.800 for me anyway. 3:05:08.120 --> 3:05:11.200 Okay, Unfortunately, we need to do another thing that's not text, 3:05:11.320 --> 3:05:15.000 which is ads. You can tell were doing great on 3:05:15.040 --> 3:05:17.320 the ad pivots here, it's fine. I was I was 3:05:17.400 --> 3:05:23.800 watching what's his name, the guy the right way shipthead 3:05:23.800 --> 3:05:25.560 guy who like had a thing with Samantha Bee for 3:05:25.600 --> 3:05:28.120 a little bit. Glenn Beck. That's the one I was 3:05:28.160 --> 3:05:31.720 watching Glenn Beck, and I was like, oh no, this guy, 3:05:31.920 --> 3:05:34.400 this guy is This guy's ad pivot was just racism. 3:05:34.959 --> 3:05:36.560 So you know, we could do. 3:05:39.120 --> 3:05:42.080 It could happen. Here are our second slogan, better ad 3:05:42.200 --> 3:05:47.960 pivots than Glenn Beck, and we are back, hopefully. I 3:05:48.000 --> 3:05:50.360 don't know. Maybe we'll get extremely unlucky and everything will 3:05:50.400 --> 3:05:53.160 be broken and this will immediately cut to a third ad. 3:05:53.680 --> 3:05:59.400 But assuming that it doesn't, I wanted to talk a 3:05:59.480 --> 3:06:05.440 bit awesome so about sort of the kinds of things 3:06:05.440 --> 3:06:08.080 that are necessary to get people to believe that a 3:06:08.200 --> 3:06:14.519 union can work, because that's you know, like or organization 3:06:14.760 --> 3:06:18.880 isn't just sort of a purely like it isn't just 3:06:18.879 --> 3:06:21.320 sort of a purely mechanical thing. It's also about morale, 3:06:22.120 --> 3:06:24.720 you know, as like, as much as it's about social relationships, 3:06:24.720 --> 3:06:27.039 about sort of morale, about people believing in the thing. 3:06:27.160 --> 3:06:29.560 So I wanted to ask, yeah, I guess talk a 3:06:29.600 --> 3:06:32.640 little bit about what that process is sort of like 3:06:32.840 --> 3:06:33.960 and what can happen to it. 3:06:35.760 --> 3:06:40.120 Yeah, so that's something an issue we ran into and 3:06:40.600 --> 3:06:46.760 make a union fairly early on, was keeping people motivated 3:06:47.200 --> 3:06:50.680 for the union and getting people wanting to be involved, 3:06:50.760 --> 3:06:53.240 because one of the most common things you'll hear when 3:06:53.320 --> 3:06:54.960 trying to organize the union is people like, oh, I 3:06:55.000 --> 3:06:58.320 can't afford to lose this job. I have a family 3:06:58.440 --> 3:07:02.920 to feed, I have built to pay. You'll see people 3:07:03.120 --> 3:07:05.640 saying they don't want to risk their careers. If you're 3:07:05.720 --> 3:07:12.240 in a more professional environment, you'll see people just not 3:07:12.440 --> 3:07:15.920 wanting to take the risks that could jeopardize them. And 3:07:16.040 --> 3:07:19.480 it's important when you're kind of trying to address those 3:07:19.520 --> 3:07:28.760 concerns to meet them where they're at. You're not gonna 3:07:29.280 --> 3:07:31.480 you can't make those concerns go away because they're real. 3:07:32.360 --> 3:07:35.080 When you're organizing a union, there is a risk you 3:07:35.120 --> 3:07:37.840 could get fired and get punished for it. It happened 3:07:37.840 --> 3:07:43.840 to me. It comes with the territory. But if you 3:07:43.959 --> 3:07:48.520 do things safely and you do things right, it's a 3:07:48.680 --> 3:07:52.040 much safer option than not doing any And that's the 3:07:52.120 --> 3:07:53.920 main thing you kind of want to talk to people 3:07:54.000 --> 3:07:58.320 about is detailing their grievances and talking about how nothing's 3:07:58.360 --> 3:08:02.000 going to change without you. You can't butter up to 3:08:02.040 --> 3:08:04.960 your bosses and expect them to suddenly turn around on you. 3:08:05.840 --> 3:08:09.320 The most they'll do is play pretend for a little 3:08:09.360 --> 3:08:14.920 bit until things go right back to normal. And you 3:08:15.040 --> 3:08:20.600 kind of want to talk to people about also why 3:08:23.040 --> 3:08:26.640 it's more beneficial to them to just stick with the 3:08:26.840 --> 3:08:31.440 union because their strength is in numbers, and that's something 3:08:31.560 --> 3:08:33.920 that a lot of regular folk can kind of lose, 3:08:34.680 --> 3:08:37.640 is that they're not going to be an envelope. When 3:08:37.720 --> 3:08:41.440 someone's viewing getting involved, a lot of the time they're thinking, oh, 3:08:41.520 --> 3:08:43.560 if I get involved, I'm going to get fired. They're 3:08:43.600 --> 3:08:47.000 not thinking about the strengthen numbers. Sure, you just you 3:08:47.280 --> 3:08:52.240 yourself as the only one pushing for change in a workplace, Yeah, 3:08:52.360 --> 3:08:54.680 there's a decent chance you'll get fired. But if you 3:08:54.720 --> 3:08:56.720 have a whole crew of ten people all who are 3:08:56.800 --> 3:09:00.840 essential running the operations pushing for change, suddenly you're going 3:09:00.920 --> 3:09:04.560 to see things shifting a much different way. And so 3:09:05.280 --> 3:09:10.720 building that solidarity among people is important, and I think 3:09:10.920 --> 3:09:16.520 is the I want to say, the absolute best way, 3:09:16.720 --> 3:09:20.440 because there isn't an absolute best way to handle those concerns, 3:09:20.879 --> 3:09:23.840 but it's definitely a way that can be effective if 3:09:23.920 --> 3:09:24.360 done right. 3:09:25.680 --> 3:09:30.240 Yeah, and I guess, okay, I guess I guess we 3:09:30.280 --> 3:09:34.000 should go into how it sort of came apart. Yeah, 3:09:34.760 --> 3:09:37.840 because unfortunately, you know, and this I think is the 3:09:37.879 --> 3:09:40.360 thing that is depressing but true, which is that a 3:09:40.400 --> 3:09:44.440 lot of union like statistic well, actually I don't have 3:09:44.520 --> 3:09:46.279 the numbers. I'm not gonna I'm not going to actually 3:09:46.320 --> 3:09:48.880 say that, but a lot of union campaigns don't work. 3:09:49.080 --> 3:09:53.440 And you know, sometimes it's because like something bad happens, 3:09:53.480 --> 3:09:55.960 Sometimes because it's just you know, stuff happens out of 3:09:56.000 --> 3:10:00.760 your control. Sometimes it's I don't know, like a pande starts. 3:10:02.400 --> 3:10:04.600 But yeah, I was talked about what happened here and 3:10:04.920 --> 3:10:07.680 how to sort of avoid that because it sucks. 3:10:09.800 --> 3:10:11.560 So there's a lot of things that can be a 3:10:11.640 --> 3:10:18.080 downfall in the union. In the case of McDonald's, our 3:10:18.440 --> 3:10:21.360 main downfall, there was a lot of you know, little 3:10:21.440 --> 3:10:25.360 things we did wrong that didn't help at all that 3:10:25.480 --> 3:10:31.720 definitely just made matters worse in the end. But the 3:10:32.080 --> 3:10:35.640 straw that broke the camel's back was not being careful 3:10:35.680 --> 3:10:42.600 with who we trusted and Dan, as I referred to 3:10:42.680 --> 3:10:45.720 in the article, he was the one that caused the 3:10:45.840 --> 3:10:51.360 penultimate constructure of it. COVID contributed heavily, but I feel 3:10:51.400 --> 3:10:53.960 like if it weren't for Dan, the union could have 3:10:54.000 --> 3:10:56.400 had still a fighting chance in spite of COVID. Now, 3:10:56.440 --> 3:10:58.280 if it worked for COVID, I think the union also 3:10:58.320 --> 3:11:04.360 could have stuck around the mixture of external factors and 3:11:04.520 --> 3:11:07.200 internal did the downfall. But in terms of things we 3:11:07.200 --> 3:11:14.480 could have actively prevented, Dan was the main thing that 3:11:14.560 --> 3:11:17.880 we could have done. Approached way differently. We could have 3:11:18.000 --> 3:11:23.200 approached handling new people in a much better light. We 3:11:23.320 --> 3:11:26.840 should have had a centralized group being the ones with 3:11:26.959 --> 3:11:32.640 all the communications everything, and let people prove their trust 3:11:32.720 --> 3:11:35.160 to the union over time by doing taxes for it 3:11:35.440 --> 3:11:41.640 and just by building relationships with people and fostering stuff 3:11:41.680 --> 3:11:45.040 that's already there. Because Dan was two faced, we all 3:11:45.080 --> 3:11:46.680 thought he was our friend, which is why we thought 3:11:46.720 --> 3:11:52.480 we could trust him. But he was in it just 3:11:52.680 --> 3:11:55.680 to try and get some benefits for him, which is 3:11:55.720 --> 3:11:59.640 why he snitched. He thought maybe he would get, you know, 3:12:00.120 --> 3:12:04.880 some type of promotion or something he didn't, which side note, 3:12:05.080 --> 3:12:07.160 it doesn't help you to snitch on your union. If 3:12:07.200 --> 3:12:09.360 anyone out there is thinking of doing it, you're just 3:12:09.440 --> 3:12:12.400 going to screw yourself and everyone else over and nobody 3:12:12.560 --> 3:12:17.840 likes to snitch. Yeah, but we should have been a 3:12:17.920 --> 3:12:21.720 lot more cautious with how we approached people and shouldn't 3:12:21.760 --> 3:12:26.800 have just been doing things for the sake of doing them. 3:12:27.120 --> 3:12:30.400 Like we shouldn't have been approaching people inside the workplace. 3:12:30.520 --> 3:12:34.880 We shouldn't have been inviting everyone and everyone to all 3:12:34.920 --> 3:12:42.360 our confidential group chats. We should have been cautious of 3:12:42.600 --> 3:12:45.760 who we were around and what we were saying around people, 3:12:46.000 --> 3:12:51.520 and how we were going about it. That's the core 3:12:51.600 --> 3:12:53.680 of it. I mean, it's. 3:12:53.600 --> 3:12:56.920 Recklessness, yeah, And I mean I think, like you know, 3:12:58.360 --> 3:13:00.960 obviously it is not good if the exist, like if 3:13:01.080 --> 3:13:02.840 if the existence of your union a bunch of your 3:13:02.879 --> 3:13:06.960 stuff gets leaked, like this is not necessarily fatal, like 3:13:07.200 --> 3:13:09.960 I've I've been involved in campaigns where like that's happened 3:13:10.080 --> 3:13:13.640 and we want anyways, but it could definitely be. It's like, 3:13:13.760 --> 3:13:17.480 you know, especially like especially early on in the process, 3:13:17.520 --> 3:13:22.240 and especially like the more precarious stuff is uh it, Yeah, 3:13:22.280 --> 3:13:27.840 it's not great. I can get yeah pretty bad pretty quickly. 3:13:28.800 --> 3:13:28.920 You know. 3:13:29.120 --> 3:13:30.480 I guess the thing that I wanted to sort of 3:13:30.520 --> 3:13:34.040 ask about was like, Okay, so historically up until the 3:13:34.160 --> 3:13:38.920 last I mean I think was was was Burgerville the 3:13:39.000 --> 3:13:42.720 first like modern fast food union. I think it might 3:13:42.800 --> 3:13:46.640 have been. It was either or yeah, it was one 3:13:46.680 --> 3:13:49.120 of the two. Up up until like really the last 3:13:50.120 --> 3:13:52.959 like like I think, like post like twenty fifteen twenty sixteen, 3:13:54.000 --> 3:13:57.920 fast food has been really really difficult to organize, and 3:13:58.240 --> 3:14:02.400 a lot of a lot of unions either just didn't 3:14:02.520 --> 3:14:06.360 try or did these kind of like weird PR stunt 3:14:06.440 --> 3:14:10.400 campaigns that were you know, like Fight fifteen attached things 3:14:10.400 --> 3:14:11.960 where it's like, wow, we're not actually really trying to 3:14:11.959 --> 3:14:16.360 get a union, we're trying to like get PR stuff 3:14:16.440 --> 3:14:19.800 for Fight fifteen. But this is I don't know, this 3:14:19.879 --> 3:14:21.520 is the thing I think it's interesting about the idew 3:14:21.800 --> 3:14:25.720 about the idea. This is the thing that's interesting about 3:14:25.760 --> 3:14:28.400 the industrial workers of the world specifically, is that they've 3:14:28.640 --> 3:14:34.320 actually like gone in and seriously attempted to do it, 3:14:34.440 --> 3:14:36.480 and they sort of finally broke through it a couple 3:14:36.520 --> 3:14:39.320 of places, and you know this this McDonald's campaign didn't work. 3:14:40.200 --> 3:14:41.720 But what was kind of interesting to me about it 3:14:41.840 --> 3:14:45.760 is like I don't know, like how kind of I 3:14:45.800 --> 3:14:47.520 don't know if normal is the right word of a 3:14:47.600 --> 3:14:50.320 campaign it was, but it's it looks a lot like 3:14:51.920 --> 3:14:54.160 I don't know, it looked like it looks a lot 3:14:54.240 --> 3:14:56.200 like campaigns that I've been involved in that were like 3:14:56.400 --> 3:14:59.039 not in the fast food industry. And now I guess 3:14:59.040 --> 3:15:02.760 I was wondering a bit about, like, to what extent 3:15:03.200 --> 3:15:07.720 were the sort of tactics shaped by like the very specific, 3:15:07.840 --> 3:15:10.640 weird conditions of fast food, and to what extent it 3:15:10.760 --> 3:15:12.160 was just sort of like the stuff you'd use in 3:15:12.200 --> 3:15:12.880 any workplace. 3:15:13.840 --> 3:15:16.920 So a lot of our base model was just stuff 3:15:16.959 --> 3:15:19.119 you'd use in any workplace. Because at the time we're 3:15:19.200 --> 3:15:23.240 doing this, I think the only fast food unions that 3:15:23.320 --> 3:15:29.120 were around were like Jimmy John's and Burbertville. I think 3:15:29.200 --> 3:15:32.560 those are the only two that had any publicity. This 3:15:32.720 --> 3:15:36.600 was before all the major Starbucks campaigns. 3:15:37.640 --> 3:15:38.960 Yeah, that's all pretty recent. 3:15:39.720 --> 3:15:44.240 Yeah, And so we didn't have much of a playbook 3:15:44.680 --> 3:15:47.680 for how to approach things in a fast food environment. Specifically, 3:15:48.680 --> 3:15:50.920 a lot of what we were actually emulated the model 3:15:51.000 --> 3:15:56.120 on was factory environments and things like that, because there 3:15:56.280 --> 3:16:02.760 is somewhat of a similarity of having in both between 3:16:02.879 --> 3:16:06.199 fast food and factories. With factories and both fast food, 3:16:07.720 --> 3:16:11.440 you have a kind of assembly line model, you know, 3:16:11.720 --> 3:16:15.200 crank out or crank out work, crank out work, get 3:16:15.280 --> 3:16:18.320 things out at a rapid pace, and stick to your job. 3:16:18.760 --> 3:16:20.400 Maybe do it a little bit of clean up now 3:16:20.480 --> 3:16:23.600 and then, but you stick to what you're doing, and 3:16:25.840 --> 3:16:30.080 you're kind of isolated from other stations a bit. You 3:16:30.200 --> 3:16:32.920 have some overlap, but only in so far as your 3:16:33.000 --> 3:16:35.560 job will allow, but you might be able to talk 3:16:35.600 --> 3:16:38.800 to each other and you shared break areas. That kind 3:16:38.840 --> 3:16:43.720 of structure informed how we approached it. By us, what 3:16:43.920 --> 3:16:47.879 we tried to do was talk to people we didn't 3:16:47.959 --> 3:16:51.800 have external contacts with in areas that were away from cameras, 3:16:52.440 --> 3:16:54.720 in areas that were away from other people who might 3:16:54.800 --> 3:17:03.400 be able to hear. But there is better ways of 3:17:03.520 --> 3:17:13.360 doing it, and I think other campaigns benefited out. They're 3:17:13.560 --> 3:17:19.160 likely benefited from having more seasoned organizers at the core 3:17:19.240 --> 3:17:22.000 of it, because that's also at least for me and 3:17:22.120 --> 3:17:25.360 my experience with it. Something that didn't help us was 3:17:25.440 --> 3:17:28.640 having someone who with no real experience doing something at 3:17:28.680 --> 3:17:31.360 the forefront of that. I'm not to say that someone 3:17:31.360 --> 3:17:34.920 of no experience can't do amazing things. There's countless examples 3:17:34.959 --> 3:17:38.400 of unions that were ran by people with no experience 3:17:38.520 --> 3:17:40.680 at all who's just jumped right into it and did 3:17:40.760 --> 3:17:47.000 amazing jobs. But it's important to get a diversity of 3:17:47.120 --> 3:17:49.920 people with different walks of life at the core of it, 3:17:50.080 --> 3:17:58.080 people with different perspectives. So many different people involved at 3:17:58.160 --> 3:18:02.000 the core as a kind of central organizing committee can 3:18:02.120 --> 3:18:07.640 do you wonders with a union. Because we had just 3:18:07.879 --> 3:18:12.600 a few young left leaning people, a few young left 3:18:12.680 --> 3:18:17.000 leaning white people, most of which were male presenting. I 3:18:17.240 --> 3:18:21.959 wasn't out as trans there, so I was presenting as masculine. 3:18:22.240 --> 3:18:24.680 The other people I was with, they were all CIS men, 3:18:26.840 --> 3:18:32.040 with one exception, two exceptions. Sorry, my memory is a 3:18:32.080 --> 3:18:37.120 little on the fits. But we needed more people with 3:18:37.280 --> 3:18:40.760 different perspectives in there. We needed more, and there was 3:18:40.840 --> 3:18:43.560 plenty to be found in the workplace, but we just 3:18:45.400 --> 3:18:48.960 we neglected to include them in the core organizing the committee. 3:18:48.959 --> 3:18:54.119 And I think that's something that could really benefit unions 3:18:54.160 --> 3:18:56.960 and probably is a major strength of a lot of 3:18:57.000 --> 3:19:03.160 the successful ones is having a diverse main primary group 3:19:03.200 --> 3:19:05.959 of central organizers. I don't want to say central organizers, 3:19:06.040 --> 3:19:11.680 more like core organizers, because the solidarity union model isn't 3:19:11.800 --> 3:19:16.120 like hierarchical, but just a central group of people involved 3:19:16.200 --> 3:19:18.800 that seek to do the main leg work. 3:19:20.040 --> 3:19:22.360 Yeah, and you know, I mean this has been I 3:19:22.400 --> 3:19:24.840 think like one of the things that made the like 3:19:24.959 --> 3:19:30.040 the Starbucks campaign's work was like they well with with 3:19:30.080 --> 3:19:32.280 Starbucks can tape specifically, it was a lot of like 3:19:32.680 --> 3:19:34.879 find the queerest person in the workplace to start talking 3:19:34.920 --> 3:19:37.680 to them. But having the core group of people working 3:19:37.760 --> 3:19:41.120 on things being as diverse as possible is good both 3:19:41.160 --> 3:19:43.480 in like an immediate practical sense and it is sort 3:19:43.520 --> 3:19:46.000 of like long term to chiefe sense and the like 3:19:46.160 --> 3:19:49.520 faster that happens, the better. Yeah, Okay, do you do 3:19:49.600 --> 3:19:51.520 you have anything else that you from this that you 3:19:51.640 --> 3:19:52.840 think people should know about? 3:19:53.680 --> 3:19:57.520 I would say, if you can get external help from 3:19:57.520 --> 3:19:59.720 a union, if you've never done it before, and even 3:19:59.720 --> 3:20:03.440 if you having someone to balance ideas off of can wonders. 3:20:04.080 --> 3:20:06.560 There's a lot of fun with the IWW that are 3:20:06.600 --> 3:20:10.440 more than willing to offer helping hand to people trying 3:20:10.440 --> 3:20:12.680 to get started on a union campaign. All you got 3:20:12.800 --> 3:20:16.240 to do is reach out and ask, and I'm sure 3:20:16.280 --> 3:20:19.000 there will be someone in your local who's willing to help. 3:20:19.600 --> 3:20:22.200 But if even if there's not, you can probably get 3:20:22.240 --> 3:20:27.040 someone to help you more remotely too, And even just 3:20:27.120 --> 3:20:29.000 a little bit of guidance can go a long way. 3:20:29.560 --> 3:20:35.680 Yeah, Union good, McDonald's bad. Be careful while you're organizing, 3:20:35.959 --> 3:20:39.880 and yeah, be strategic inspired about it. Well, okay, do 3:20:40.040 --> 3:20:44.840 you want people to find you first? And if so where? Yeah? 3:20:45.360 --> 3:20:49.240 I can be found over unfortunately for now, on Twitter, 3:20:49.520 --> 3:20:57.960 at my magazine, also on Mastodon, much more preferably, and 3:20:58.160 --> 3:21:01.879 those are the main places I'm at. If you want 3:21:01.920 --> 3:21:04.920 to reach me to, my email is found on my 3:21:05.000 --> 3:21:07.920 Twitter and masked it on my relating at gmail dot com. 3:21:09.760 --> 3:21:11.040 It's the best way to get hold of me. 3:21:12.200 --> 3:21:12.400 Yeah. 3:21:12.480 --> 3:21:14.760 Well we'll put a link to the strange meta article 3:21:15.560 --> 3:21:19.120 in the in the description so you can read that 3:21:19.160 --> 3:21:23.560 to you because it's great. Yeah, Mirror, thank you so 3:21:23.640 --> 3:21:25.720 much for joining But I was gonna say us, but 3:21:25.760 --> 3:21:29.040 I guess thank you so much for joining me. Uh yeah, 3:21:29.040 --> 3:21:30.520 it was it was great talking to you. It was 3:21:31.280 --> 3:21:32.080 fuck McDonald's. 3:21:34.280 --> 3:21:37.000 Thank you so much for having Yeah, it was really 3:21:37.040 --> 3:21:39.480 great being here. Been a huge fan of this podcast 3:21:39.560 --> 3:21:42.840 for a while, so I was like when when I 3:21:42.920 --> 3:21:45.440 first heard about potentially being on here. I was stoked 3:21:45.720 --> 3:21:47.240 and also yeah, fuck McDonald's. 3:21:49.640 --> 3:21:52.320 Yeah, I guess, Yeah, this has been the podcast that 3:21:52.360 --> 3:21:55.000 you're listening to. You can find us that happen here 3:21:55.080 --> 3:21:58.640 pod on Twitter and Instagram. You can find us the 3:21:58.720 --> 3:22:02.280 rest of the stuff that people do at cools on media. 3:22:02.320 --> 3:22:04.199 I guess, I guess. I actually I have not plugged 3:22:04.400 --> 3:22:06.640 the do show that's been happening. There'll be a couple 3:22:06.640 --> 3:22:08.120 of episodes out by the time we do this. But 3:22:08.920 --> 3:22:12.039 Coolson has done a show with Jake Canahan called Sad 3:22:12.120 --> 3:22:17.359 Oligarchs that's about the Russian oligarchs who've been mysteriously dieinggue 3:22:18.640 --> 3:22:22.640 over the past, like as the start of the Ukraine. Yeah, 3:22:22.959 --> 3:22:26.600 probably only getting more relevant as whatever fucking bullshit is 3:22:26.640 --> 3:22:30.320 happening there right now plays out. I don't know, but 3:22:30.520 --> 3:22:32.000 by the time this goes up, you'll probably have a 3:22:32.040 --> 3:22:35.360 better idea of what happened or didn't happen. But yeah, 3:22:35.480 --> 3:22:38.880 go listen to that. Yeah, and go start a union 3:22:38.920 --> 3:22:41.880 in your workplace or alternately, light light light something on 3:22:42.000 --> 3:22:47.880 fire legally not the place something campfires, Explorers, we could 3:22:47.920 --> 3:22:50.280 make this. We have the technology. 3:22:52.800 --> 3:22:54.119 Union smores. 3:22:55.200 --> 3:23:13.840 Best kind, welcome back to it could happen here, a 3:23:13.959 --> 3:23:19.000 podcast about it. It being bad things happening here here 3:23:19.160 --> 3:23:24.120 being you know, wherever you are. We're talking specifically about 3:23:24.160 --> 3:23:28.119 wherever you are. I'm Robert Evans, one of the hosts 3:23:28.240 --> 3:23:31.800 of this podcast, and with me today is a guy 3:23:31.959 --> 3:23:36.160 I have a lot of admiration for probably my favorite 3:23:36.240 --> 3:23:40.200 YouTube documentarian, which I guess would be the fastest way 3:23:40.240 --> 3:23:41.600 to sum up who you are and what you do, 3:23:42.160 --> 3:23:45.080 Dan Olsen from the channel Folding Ideas. 3:23:46.040 --> 3:23:53.200 Dan, Hi, Hi, keep doing, I'm doing well. Thanks for 3:23:53.520 --> 3:23:54.320 thanks for inviting me. 3:23:54.920 --> 3:23:55.160 Yeah. 3:23:55.760 --> 3:23:58.080 Now, Dan, you and I have like a topic of 3:23:58.160 --> 3:24:01.199 shared interest to discuss. But the first thing I wanted 3:24:01.240 --> 3:24:04.080 to talk about is your your name on the internet 3:24:04.640 --> 3:24:06.040 is a is foldable human? 3:24:06.400 --> 3:24:06.600 Yeah. 3:24:07.320 --> 3:24:09.440 I don't feel like I could fold you very well. 3:24:10.080 --> 3:24:14.840 No, Okay, So back in high school, I used to 3:24:14.959 --> 3:24:17.920 be like I was a really small guy, Like I 3:24:18.000 --> 3:24:19.160 was a really skinny guy. 3:24:19.560 --> 3:24:19.720 Huh. 3:24:20.440 --> 3:24:23.440 And you remember the you remember all the ads from 3:24:23.480 --> 3:24:25.560 the nineties for exercise equipment. 3:24:26.400 --> 3:24:27.880 I do remember some of that. Yeah. 3:24:28.040 --> 3:24:30.960 So the tagline that they always used for like the 3:24:31.040 --> 3:24:33.440 as scene on TV exercise equipment was that it folds 3:24:33.480 --> 3:24:34.400 for easy storage. 3:24:35.320 --> 3:24:39.920 Ah and being being dumb ass kids. 3:24:40.080 --> 3:24:42.480 You know, it's like one person in our friend group 3:24:42.600 --> 3:24:44.520 like has a car, but there's like seven of us, 3:24:44.680 --> 3:24:46.800 and so someone's got to ride in the trunk. And 3:24:46.879 --> 3:24:48.800 it's like, well, Dan gets to ride in the trunk, 3:24:49.280 --> 3:24:51.000 Like we're going to stick Dan in the trunk because 3:24:51.000 --> 3:24:52.320 he folds for easy storage. 3:24:52.320 --> 3:24:54.480 Because I was a small guy and so. 3:24:56.320 --> 3:25:00.320 It so I don't know why. When I would like 3:25:00.560 --> 3:25:05.120 busy Eric like trying to brand the channel, like, you know, 3:25:05.200 --> 3:25:10.800 a decade ago, I was like, I had this phrase 3:25:10.840 --> 3:25:12.920 that I was using with students that I was interacting with, was. 3:25:13.080 --> 3:25:16.280 Like, well, let's unfold that idea, you know, yeah, yeah, yeah, but. 3:25:16.400 --> 3:25:18.520 Like that was kind of like on my mind. So 3:25:18.600 --> 3:25:21.360 I was like, ah, well, we'll like call the channel 3:25:21.520 --> 3:25:24.920 like unfolding ideas. Unfolding didn't really like just sound good. 3:25:25.000 --> 3:25:28.800 So it's like, oh, folding ideas, uh and then well 3:25:29.560 --> 3:25:33.480 esthetic parallel to that, you know, foldable human. I don't 3:25:33.520 --> 3:25:37.800 know it, it just it it came to me and 3:25:38.000 --> 3:25:42.320 it sounded good, and it was nowhere on the internet. 3:25:42.400 --> 3:25:45.240 There was like no overlaps. So I'm like, all right, interesting, 3:25:45.520 --> 3:25:47.360 We're good to go. SEO locked in. 3:25:48.680 --> 3:25:51.160 That's an example of a thing that I you know, 3:25:51.200 --> 3:25:53.040 we're talking, We're gonna be talking a lot about stuff 3:25:53.040 --> 3:25:56.080 that's unsettling about our modern era and how the Internet 3:25:56.160 --> 3:26:00.560 has sort of altered human dynamics. The things that I 3:26:00.600 --> 3:26:02.880 think is kind of neat about it is its ability 3:26:02.920 --> 3:26:07.240 to kind of preserve an amber aspects of you from 3:26:07.280 --> 3:26:09.879 the deep past. Like I have one of my emails, 3:26:09.959 --> 3:26:12.840 like my personal email is a Gmail that I got 3:26:13.080 --> 3:26:15.039 back when you had to get an invite to get 3:26:15.080 --> 3:26:18.320 a Gmail, right like right when Gmail first became a thing. 3:26:18.840 --> 3:26:21.080 And it's like, I'm not going to say it on 3:26:21.200 --> 3:26:23.400 here because then my email will get bombarded with shit. 3:26:23.480 --> 3:26:27.400 But like it's it's like a stupid joke that doesn't 3:26:27.440 --> 3:26:29.600 really make any sense. And every time I give it 3:26:29.680 --> 3:26:31.280 to some of their like why is that your email? 3:26:31.520 --> 3:26:33.600 Because I was like twelve, Like don't I don't even 3:26:33.680 --> 3:26:36.640 remember why I set this thing. It's just this like 3:26:37.160 --> 3:26:39.360 moment of something I thought was funny when I was 3:26:39.400 --> 3:26:43.119 pre pubescent, frozen in amber forever, because that's the Internet 3:26:43.240 --> 3:26:45.040 does that in little ways for each of us. 3:26:45.480 --> 3:26:50.560 I definitely abandoned my original something Awful account because some 3:26:50.800 --> 3:26:54.000 likes like you know what, maybe not that user name anymore? 3:26:54.480 --> 3:27:00.920 Yeah, yeah, so you are so Dan if people are 3:27:00.959 --> 3:27:04.240 not familiar with you, and I'm gonna guess a significant 3:27:04.320 --> 3:27:07.640 chunk of our listenership is kind of one of the 3:27:07.680 --> 3:27:10.760 biggest touchstones for you recently, was you put out a 3:27:10.840 --> 3:27:14.119 video about the NFT craze that a lot of people 3:27:14.160 --> 3:27:17.120 have credited with helping to kill it, me among them. 3:27:17.280 --> 3:27:19.680 It's a wonderful, wonderful video. Line go up was the 3:27:19.800 --> 3:27:24.200 actual title line. Yeah, line goes up, very good breakdown 3:27:24.280 --> 3:27:27.200 of how they work, why it was a con And 3:27:27.320 --> 3:27:29.320 you've been doing you know, I think kind of the 3:27:29.400 --> 3:27:31.720 first really the first time I became aware of you 3:27:31.879 --> 3:27:34.160 was you did a Flat Earth documentary, which is is 3:27:34.400 --> 3:27:34.840 very good. 3:27:36.120 --> 3:27:36.240 You know. 3:27:36.360 --> 3:27:39.200 I did an article recently on like AI kids books 3:27:39.200 --> 3:27:42.120 that was partly inspired by an investigation you did into 3:27:42.280 --> 3:27:46.360 these kind of audible slash kindle grifters, the Mickelson Twins. 3:27:47.440 --> 3:27:49.880 So you do that kind of thing, right, like you Bay, 3:27:50.480 --> 3:27:53.560 You kind of run across things that are troubling or 3:27:53.680 --> 3:27:57.040 confusing to you, and then you investigate them to a 3:27:57.080 --> 3:28:02.959 pretty impressive extent and put together very clear, uh video investigations. 3:28:03.040 --> 3:28:03.160 You know. 3:28:03.280 --> 3:28:06.440 That's that's I think, in a nutshell, probably pretty accurate. 3:28:07.000 --> 3:28:11.440 Yeah, that's kind of where the where the channels ended up. Yeah, 3:28:11.600 --> 3:28:14.040 it's it's been a few different things over over the years, 3:28:14.080 --> 3:28:16.200 but that's kind of the phase that it's in right now. 3:28:16.480 --> 3:28:20.680 Is this kind of like I don't know, like yeah, documentarian. 3:28:21.400 --> 3:28:21.720 Place. 3:28:22.400 --> 3:28:25.560 Yeah, and you know, a lot of your stuff seems 3:28:25.600 --> 3:28:29.080 to focus on basically like the topic of kind of 3:28:29.360 --> 3:28:33.760 online grifter culture and and sort of its intersection with 3:28:33.959 --> 3:28:38.200 like different weird cultic milieuse like there's kind of a 3:28:38.520 --> 3:28:42.080 cross especially like with NFT's a real big crossover betwixt 3:28:42.200 --> 3:28:44.200 the two, right, Like, it's kind of I think a 3:28:44.280 --> 3:28:48.040 lot of crypto culture was kind of this intersection between 3:28:48.680 --> 3:28:54.440 old school cons and kind of internet cult dynamics. So 3:28:54.560 --> 3:29:00.800 I wanted to talk today about the problem of scam 3:29:00.920 --> 3:29:05.920 culture in the United States because I, by any sort 3:29:05.959 --> 3:29:09.879 of like objective reckoning, I've been looking into this. There 3:29:09.920 --> 3:29:14.080 are more scams and more fraud than right now in 3:29:14.160 --> 3:29:16.840 the United States than at any point previously, and basically 3:29:16.959 --> 3:29:20.119 from all sides, like phone scams are at the highest 3:29:20.200 --> 3:29:23.520 rate they've ever been. People are getting like, like I 3:29:23.600 --> 3:29:29.920 think the statistic I've got is that in March twenty one, 3:29:29.959 --> 3:29:31.400 I think is kind of when that peaked at like 3:29:31.480 --> 3:29:36.160 four point nine billion robocall scams, which is like like 3:29:36.640 --> 3:29:39.640 just kind of an outrageous increase over where it was 3:29:39.680 --> 3:29:42.560 a few years ago. The rate of fraud against elderly 3:29:42.680 --> 3:29:45.560 people seems to be in an all time high, at 3:29:45.640 --> 3:29:47.560 least in terms of dollar amount. One of kind of 3:29:47.600 --> 3:29:50.080 the unsettling quotes that I came across when I was 3:29:50.120 --> 3:29:53.800 looking into the degree to which old people are being scammed, 3:29:53.800 --> 3:29:57.760 and it's often through various email scams that are kind 3:29:57.760 --> 3:30:00.600 of based on getting trust or fright them that like 3:30:00.720 --> 3:30:02.600 someone else is trying to scam them and so they 3:30:02.680 --> 3:30:05.400 need to give in from it. Anyway, the thing that 3:30:05.600 --> 3:30:08.680 the quote that I came across was a regulator talking 3:30:08.680 --> 3:30:11.760 about this and being like, yeah, it's not it's no 3:30:11.920 --> 3:30:16.440 longer like smaller even medium dollar cons. People are stealing 3:30:16.560 --> 3:30:21.680 generational wealth, which was really interesting to me. And then 3:30:21.720 --> 3:30:25.640 there's kind of like phishing attacks are at pretty close 3:30:25.720 --> 3:30:27.600 to an all time high. I mean, there's a I'll 3:30:27.640 --> 3:30:29.640 send you there's a graph that I came across in 3:30:29.760 --> 3:30:33.480 a what was the source on this? In a comparateech 3:30:33.680 --> 3:30:36.560 article that I mean, it's just a straight line up 3:30:36.640 --> 3:30:39.240 from January twenty twenty nine to like the end of 3:30:39.320 --> 3:30:44.240 twenty twenty two. And so I'm I'm I'm kind of 3:30:44.360 --> 3:30:47.400 looking at all this, and there's a couple of different causes, right, 3:30:47.520 --> 3:30:49.800 Like some of the stuff the SEC did under ajit 3:30:49.879 --> 3:30:52.960 PI gets blamed for why it's gotten even worse with 3:30:53.240 --> 3:30:56.840 with phone scams, although that's not the whole story. AI 3:30:57.040 --> 3:30:59.680 powered tools have been a big part of like why 3:30:59.760 --> 3:31:02.920 f attacks have increased so much. But then like you've 3:31:02.959 --> 3:31:05.760 got like the degree to which the elderly are being conned, 3:31:05.800 --> 3:31:08.280 which is like this kind of at this intersection of 3:31:08.320 --> 3:31:11.520 a few different things. How much more online old people 3:31:11.600 --> 3:31:13.600 are today than they were, you know, ten to fifteen 3:31:13.640 --> 3:31:14.039 years ago. 3:31:14.120 --> 3:31:17.920 For population bubbles, yes, you know, multi valent dynamics. 3:31:18.240 --> 3:31:22.360 Yeah, but kind of the commonality is that like scams 3:31:22.520 --> 3:31:25.040 are all around, like people, we're all kind of being 3:31:25.080 --> 3:31:26.760 assaulted by scams. 3:31:27.440 --> 3:31:30.040 I mean the time I just I just grabbed my 3:31:30.240 --> 3:31:34.320 phone and like of my last like fifteen text messages. 3:31:34.480 --> 3:31:37.600 Maybe uh it's like. 3:31:39.480 --> 3:31:42.960 Your pickup is available a couple like three with you know, 3:31:43.080 --> 3:31:47.680 four with actual friends, and then uh interact you just 3:31:47.840 --> 3:31:50.960 received an e Interact transfer high long time no talk. 3:31:51.080 --> 3:31:54.200 Just got your money, Okay, we'll send soon. Three hundred 3:31:54.240 --> 3:31:56.600 and eighty nine can now be routed to your institutions. 3:31:56.640 --> 3:32:00.360 Submit why the Canada Revenue Agency has sent you money? 3:32:01.000 --> 3:32:04.800 Your verification code for visa transfer is. And it's like 3:32:05.680 --> 3:32:11.160 it's like just constant, constant. I hadn't even because like, 3:32:11.240 --> 3:32:13.240 I'm not going to be shocked at all if I 3:32:13.360 --> 3:32:16.959 get a phishing text message during this conversation. 3:32:17.080 --> 3:32:21.520 Yeah, like between my email and like my text messages 3:32:21.879 --> 3:32:24.560 or just phone calls, right, I get every day I 3:32:24.680 --> 3:32:28.200 get two or three calls from scam likely, you know, Yeah, 3:32:28.480 --> 3:32:31.760 my good friend scam Likely. Yeah, my old buddy, he's 3:32:31.760 --> 3:32:36.160 always got always got something cooking. But yeah, it's and 3:32:36.240 --> 3:32:39.400 I this kind of like I started focusing on this 3:32:39.560 --> 3:32:42.520 more a couple of months ago because you know, I 3:32:42.640 --> 3:32:46.040 had vaguely noticed. Boy, it's just like nothing but fucking 3:32:46.120 --> 3:32:49.920 scams coming into me through my phone these days. And 3:32:50.040 --> 3:32:52.000 then a couple of months ago, I got a phone 3:32:52.080 --> 3:32:53.920 call from my bank and it was one of those 3:32:54.000 --> 3:32:56.160 things like everyone else my cell phone lets me know 3:32:56.720 --> 3:32:59.640 when like a call is from scam likely or when 3:32:59.640 --> 3:33:01.320 it's from like you know, and it had the name 3:33:01.400 --> 3:33:03.480 of my bank on there. It was the right number, 3:33:03.600 --> 3:33:06.760 you know, So I pick it up and a human being. 3:33:06.720 --> 3:33:08.280 Is on the line and they're like, is this you know, 3:33:08.440 --> 3:33:10.280 Robert Evans And I'm like yeah, And then they're like, 3:33:10.720 --> 3:33:14.440 we've seen some like fraudulent activity on your account. 3:33:14.480 --> 3:33:16.400 Can we ask you a couple questions? And that is 3:33:16.760 --> 3:33:19.680 I've gotten that call before. Legitimately, you know, it's not 3:33:19.760 --> 3:33:21.760 a weird thing for your bank to be like, hey, 3:33:22.000 --> 3:33:23.240 let's talk about these us. 3:33:23.400 --> 3:33:25.320 Are you in the country right now? It's like no, 3:33:25.520 --> 3:33:27.720 I'm I'm in New York. It's like, okay, so we're 3:33:27.760 --> 3:33:29.280 seeing activity out in New York. 3:33:29.320 --> 3:33:29.600 That's you. 3:33:29.959 --> 3:33:32.360 Yeah, did you just buy something in Florida? No, I 3:33:32.480 --> 3:33:36.720 never go to Florida, but uh so yeah so And 3:33:36.840 --> 3:33:39.640 I didn't actually get to see where they were going 3:33:39.800 --> 3:33:42.440 with this. Nothing suspicious had happened. But like after they 3:33:42.520 --> 3:33:45.320 say that, I'm like okay, yeah, like what's what's the charge? 3:33:45.640 --> 3:33:48.200 And then my phone disconnects right like it's you know again, 3:33:48.360 --> 3:33:50.960 my where I live, you know, Oregon is the middle 3:33:50.959 --> 3:33:54.680 of nowhere, so like sometimes connectivity is not great. So 3:33:54.800 --> 3:33:57.040 I call them back, you know, and I get on 3:33:57.120 --> 3:33:59.600 the phone with a person and they're like, yeah, what's 3:33:59.640 --> 3:34:00.920 what's in to be up? And I'm like, well, you 3:34:00.959 --> 3:34:02.880 guys called me saying that like that there was some 3:34:03.400 --> 3:34:06.120 possibly fraudulent activity that we needed to talk about. And 3:34:06.640 --> 3:34:08.480 the lady on the other end is like, no one 3:34:08.560 --> 3:34:10.960 here called you. Like I'm looking at your record. I 3:34:11.000 --> 3:34:13.000 can tell when someone's getting a call. We don't have 3:34:13.040 --> 3:34:15.040 any record of that. And I explained what happened, and 3:34:15.160 --> 3:34:18.880 she like goes back, talks to a supervisor and is like, 3:34:19.320 --> 3:34:22.320 so that was a scam. They've this is something we've 3:34:22.360 --> 3:34:24.680 seen more and more lately. They've they're able now to 3:34:24.840 --> 3:34:28.680 actually just spoof our banks and this is my bank 3:34:28.800 --> 3:34:32.400 is a significant sized institution. They're able to spoof our 3:34:32.640 --> 3:34:36.000 phone number now and so you can't tell through the 3:34:36.040 --> 3:34:38.240 caller ID, and like it was this whole thing where 3:34:38.320 --> 3:34:41.480 like obviously I know, don't give certain things over the phone, 3:34:41.520 --> 3:34:43.360 even if they're pretending to be your bank. We never 3:34:43.440 --> 3:34:46.360 got to that point where anything was actually compromised, but 3:34:46.480 --> 3:34:49.800 it was just like, well, shit, like what are you Like? 3:34:50.200 --> 3:34:52.320 That's this is now well beyond a thing where like 3:34:52.440 --> 3:34:55.400 you're getting called and someone's offering you, you know, to 3:34:55.560 --> 3:34:58.000 make a bunch of money. You know, holding a Nigerian 3:34:58.080 --> 3:35:00.520 princess wealth or something. If you sit in your account, 3:35:00.600 --> 3:35:03.720 this is your bank calls you and your phone tells 3:35:03.760 --> 3:35:06.119 you that it's your bank, and a human being who 3:35:06.240 --> 3:35:10.080 sounds just like the bank teller like it's it's gotten 3:35:10.320 --> 3:35:14.040 so and I think kind of the broad Obviously, each 3:35:14.080 --> 3:35:17.960 of these individual vectors by which scamming has increased is 3:35:18.240 --> 3:35:20.800 a worthy story and a separate story in a lot 3:35:20.840 --> 3:35:24.120 of ways, but they also come together in this like, well, 3:35:24.680 --> 3:35:27.440 you know, it's not it's not like weird at this 3:35:27.520 --> 3:35:31.440 point to note that everybody seems angrier, and everybody seems paranoid, 3:35:31.560 --> 3:35:34.880 and you hear more stories about like people opening fire 3:35:35.000 --> 3:35:38.040 on folks pulling into their driveway to turn around, and 3:35:38.800 --> 3:35:41.840 there's you know that story. Obviously there's guns and stuff 3:35:41.879 --> 3:35:43.920 that's also connected to that. But I wonder how much 3:35:44.520 --> 3:35:49.560 of the paranoia and anger is at least exacerbated by 3:35:49.600 --> 3:35:52.480 the fact that everyone is fighting off a million scammers 3:35:52.480 --> 3:35:53.080 at all times. 3:35:54.320 --> 3:35:56.680 Yeah, I think that's a good observation, like that, just 3:35:56.800 --> 3:36:03.119 we're seeing this erosion of public trust in in reality. 3:36:03.760 --> 3:36:07.360 Yeah, And and some of that is like. 3:36:07.560 --> 3:36:11.600 Deliberate and political, uh, And a lot of it is 3:36:11.840 --> 3:36:16.040 just coming from like the fact that technology has enabled 3:36:16.320 --> 3:36:22.800 spam in in unprecedented new vectors and the fact that 3:36:22.920 --> 3:36:27.160 you can like that you can automate bombarding people with. 3:36:29.320 --> 3:36:34.560 Noise. Uh is is just kind of it's eaten away 3:36:34.600 --> 3:36:35.280 at all of us. 3:36:37.040 --> 3:36:39.879 Because it's like, how do I how do I trust anything? 3:36:39.920 --> 3:36:41.440 I mean so like and this is the thing is 3:36:41.760 --> 3:36:44.400 it's like, Okay, so I've been I've been keyed into 3:36:44.480 --> 3:36:47.040 this and thus paranoid for like a decade now. So 3:36:47.160 --> 3:36:49.520 if I get a message that's like, you know, like 3:36:49.640 --> 3:36:53.600 that from my bank, if it comes in text, then 3:36:53.640 --> 3:36:56.360 it's like I don't interact with the original thing that 3:36:56.520 --> 3:36:59.680 it came from. I then go like on the website. 3:36:59.680 --> 3:37:02.320 It's like all right, I like call my bank to 3:37:03.000 --> 3:37:06.320 to to inquire about it. Like never you know, it's 3:37:06.360 --> 3:37:09.960 like never communicate through the channel that you're first contacted in. Yeah, 3:37:10.080 --> 3:37:12.400 if you're if you're dealing with your bank, And it's 3:37:12.480 --> 3:37:14.880 like and it's like, but is that level of paranoia healthy? 3:37:14.959 --> 3:37:17.199 And it's like that takes that also takes effort. 3:37:17.320 --> 3:37:19.400 That means you have to have the foresight to be like, 3:37:19.879 --> 3:37:24.360 do not panic see the thing process it consciously go 3:37:24.600 --> 3:37:29.800 somewhere else, and like, you know, activate a different channel. 3:37:29.879 --> 3:37:32.240 You know, if they contact you through text, you know, 3:37:32.400 --> 3:37:36.480 go through like email or or like live chat. If 3:37:36.520 --> 3:37:39.480 they contact you through email, call them on the phone, 3:37:39.879 --> 3:37:41.879 not with the phone number that was at the bottom 3:37:41.879 --> 3:37:43.240 of the email, go to the website. 3:37:43.240 --> 3:37:45.200 And it's like, that's effort, that's effort. 3:37:45.520 --> 3:37:48.879 I don't even have that much energy in me sometime, 3:37:48.920 --> 3:37:51.360 and a lot of other people just like absolutely don't. 3:37:51.879 --> 3:37:57.560 And and that leads to like just exhaustion, vulnerability, you know, 3:37:57.760 --> 3:38:02.199 all of the things that feed into like paranoia, distrust, 3:38:02.480 --> 3:38:04.520 et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And it's 3:38:04.800 --> 3:38:09.000 it's relentless. Like online advertising is basically useless at this point. 3:38:09.040 --> 3:38:13.800 Oh yeah, because like if you ran, if you ran 3:38:13.840 --> 3:38:17.520 a legitimate ad, you know, unless you have the money 3:38:17.680 --> 3:38:24.280 to run like a real proper you know, basically TV commercial. Yeah, 3:38:26.200 --> 3:38:30.360 like banner ads. I haven't I've seen like I don't 3:38:30.440 --> 3:38:33.879 know one legitimate banner ad for like a car company 3:38:34.360 --> 3:38:37.879 in the last year. Everything else is like a hearing 3:38:37.959 --> 3:38:42.039 aid scam or you know, liquefy your belly fat using 3:38:42.240 --> 3:38:42.959 the metaverse. 3:38:44.120 --> 3:38:48.240 Yeah, and it's it's this constant, like number one. It's 3:38:48.360 --> 3:38:50.880 led me to the situation where when I see an 3:38:50.879 --> 3:38:53.520 ad on social media in particular, but with any sort 3:38:53.520 --> 3:38:56.959 of like print in online ad, my assumption is it's 3:38:57.040 --> 3:38:59.640 probably a con right. Yeah, even if it's like oh wow, 3:38:59.720 --> 3:39:02.240 that's looks nice, well, that company is probably not gonna 3:39:02.240 --> 3:39:04.360 ship me that shirt right like, or it won't be 3:39:04.520 --> 3:39:06.080 right like, yeah, it'll. 3:39:05.879 --> 3:39:08.760 Be that photo is absolutely not from the company that 3:39:08.879 --> 3:39:09.640 is running this ad. 3:39:09.720 --> 3:39:09.920 Yeah. 3:39:09.920 --> 3:39:13.320 You just you assume you distrust as a as a 3:39:13.400 --> 3:39:15.760 first measure. You see, you see a banner ad, you 3:39:15.840 --> 3:39:19.800 see the aesthetics of advertising, and the assumption is that 3:39:19.879 --> 3:39:23.440 it's like, ah, that's gonna you know, that's gonna get 3:39:23.520 --> 3:39:26.080 me to sign up for some subscription that's going to 3:39:26.120 --> 3:39:29.640 be buried in like recurring payments that yeah, I will 3:39:29.720 --> 3:39:30.720 never be able to cancel. 3:39:31.160 --> 3:39:34.680 And it's it's interesting because I, I mean, I'm not 3:39:34.720 --> 3:39:36.880 sure if this has been your experience, but like I 3:39:37.240 --> 3:39:40.440 can acknowledge I think I morally have to acknowledge like 3:39:40.640 --> 3:39:45.040 part of my success financially as a creator has been 3:39:45.080 --> 3:39:46.040 as a result of that. 3:39:46.400 --> 3:39:48.520 Because one of the things that we've seen in the 3:39:48.760 --> 3:39:52.400 the ad market is that text ads ads for print 3:39:52.480 --> 3:39:54.920 and shit do not work, do not function in any way, 3:39:54.959 --> 3:39:58.280 shape or form, and a lot of like random inner 3:39:58.360 --> 3:40:01.840 citt ads don't work well, but creator ads work well, 3:40:02.080 --> 3:40:05.080 and so there's money in it, right because people listen 3:40:05.240 --> 3:40:07.600 to like people have a degree of like, Okay, well 3:40:07.640 --> 3:40:10.520 this is like number one. It's just like the process 3:40:10.560 --> 3:40:13.360 of consuming a YouTube video or a podcast is different 3:40:13.400 --> 3:40:16.520 from an article. But like the ads work better because 3:40:16.560 --> 3:40:19.160 it doesn't feel the same as like the scrum of 3:40:19.240 --> 3:40:21.800 shit that like is getting pushed into every conversation you 3:40:21.959 --> 3:40:22.600 have on Twitter. 3:40:23.920 --> 3:40:26.680 A human that I can confirm existence has at least 3:40:26.760 --> 3:40:30.200 taken a look at this, like this is not at 3:40:30.280 --> 3:40:33.800 least like not a complete con or whatever, right, yeah, 3:40:34.959 --> 3:40:38.040 or if it is, then like then the host has 3:40:38.160 --> 3:40:42.160 also has also been kind of like by whatever, Like it. 3:40:42.240 --> 3:40:44.520 Ends up, yeah, we're in this together. Like it ends 3:40:44.600 --> 3:40:47.160 up being at least like a little. 3:40:47.000 --> 3:40:51.480 Bit sort of sort of distant distanced from that, you know, 3:40:51.720 --> 3:40:56.360 like the freakin' you know, by by a square foot 3:40:56.360 --> 3:40:59.080 of land in Scotland and become a lord and that 3:40:59.160 --> 3:41:03.720 whole thing is like a scam being run out of China. Yeah, yeah, 3:41:04.040 --> 3:41:05.600 I mean one of the one of the kind of 3:41:05.640 --> 3:41:07.720 like weird ironies. For me is it's like, okay, so 3:41:07.840 --> 3:41:12.080 line goes up, came out, Well, the crypto ecosystem was 3:41:12.200 --> 3:41:14.920 in its like biggest ad blitz ever. You know, they 3:41:14.959 --> 3:41:17.520 had the Super Bowl ads coming up just like a 3:41:17.600 --> 3:41:21.320 month later actually like weeks like weeks afterwards, and so 3:41:23.280 --> 3:41:25.800 you know, like the vast majority of the like uh 3:41:26.800 --> 3:41:31.800 mideral ads that ran on that video were crypto dot Com, 3:41:32.200 --> 3:41:38.320 were ftx, were binance, and and the ad rates that 3:41:38.480 --> 3:41:41.560 they were paying, like the CPM that they were paying 3:41:41.680 --> 3:41:48.600 to run on crypto relevant videos was insane. Yeah, it 3:41:48.800 --> 3:41:51.920 was like it was like twenty eleven all over again. 3:41:52.560 --> 3:41:55.360 Twenty eleven was the only good time to be in 3:41:55.480 --> 3:42:01.680 digital content creation. There's like a lot that's unsettling about that. 3:42:01.720 --> 3:42:03.480 I think one of the things that is like most 3:42:03.520 --> 3:42:05.880 frustrated to me is the degree to which it's meant 3:42:05.959 --> 3:42:10.400 that we've we've gone backwards. Like there was this people 3:42:10.440 --> 3:42:14.760 who like study tech and kind of the way socialization 3:42:15.080 --> 3:42:17.560 around big tech works talk about this thing called the 3:42:17.640 --> 3:42:20.000 trow of disappointment, right, which is when you get a 3:42:20.040 --> 3:42:23.000 new technology, everybody we're in like the hype phase for 3:42:23.080 --> 3:42:25.640 like AI right now, right yeah, and then at a 3:42:25.760 --> 3:42:28.720 certain point it becomes clear which aspects of the hype 3:42:28.760 --> 3:42:30.879 were right, you know, the degree to which the technology 3:42:30.959 --> 3:42:33.480 is capable of doing things that kind of the evangelists 3:42:33.520 --> 3:42:35.959 were claiming, and to which extent the hype was wrong 3:42:36.200 --> 3:42:38.960 right in what areas is the tech always going to 3:42:39.000 --> 3:42:42.800 fall short? And that's called like the trow of disappointment 3:42:42.840 --> 3:42:45.000 when people start to reel and then you know things 3:42:45.120 --> 3:42:47.920 kind of are supposed to level after that's dot com 3:42:48.160 --> 3:42:52.039 is not in fact magic, Yeah, exactly exactly. You can't 3:42:52.080 --> 3:42:55.200 just keep shoveling money into this shit forever and in 3:42:55.800 --> 3:42:59.480 the hopes of exponential returns, or as a consumer, like 3:42:59.600 --> 3:43:02.120 at a point, I can remember the time when phones 3:43:02.160 --> 3:43:05.040 were exciting and I was, as especially as a journalist, 3:43:05.160 --> 3:43:07.600 like really interested every new year at like what new 3:43:07.680 --> 3:43:10.280 things they're capable of. And then after a couple of 3:43:10.400 --> 3:43:12.880 years it was like, well, every phone is like there's 3:43:12.920 --> 3:43:15.480 no difference. Now there's no excitement in getting a new phone. 3:43:15.520 --> 3:43:17.760 It's just like, well this my old phone is broken, 3:43:17.840 --> 3:43:19.480 so I need a new phone. But like I'm not 3:43:19.600 --> 3:43:24.200 like Wow, the new capabilities of this device, but I 3:43:24.360 --> 3:43:26.520 feel like there's another I don't even I don't really 3:43:26.560 --> 3:43:28.360 know what to call it, but there's also this kind 3:43:28.360 --> 3:43:32.800 of thing where we the Internet helps to create, or 3:43:32.920 --> 3:43:35.840 is the method through which is disseminated a new labor 3:43:35.920 --> 3:43:39.560 saving device, and then the scams reach such a density 3:43:39.760 --> 3:43:42.680 that the amount of labor you're able to save is minimal, right, 3:43:44.320 --> 3:43:48.520 Like that's that's I feel like there's like a that's 3:43:48.640 --> 3:43:51.000 at least one of the things that I've noticed, especially 3:43:51.120 --> 3:43:54.200 with like digital communication, with just communication in general. Right, 3:43:54.640 --> 3:43:57.160 my smartphone made it easier to stay in touch all 3:43:57.240 --> 3:44:01.840 the time, and now my smartphone it obviously I still 3:44:01.920 --> 3:44:04.720 carry the damn thing everywhere, but like my text messages 3:44:04.760 --> 3:44:07.280 are mostly scams, and my emails are mostly scams, and 3:44:07.320 --> 3:44:09.040 most of the calls that I get are scams. 3:44:09.200 --> 3:44:13.200 Like yeah, yeah, I've actually been finding myself drifting back 3:44:13.240 --> 3:44:16.080 towards email as a communication medium just because the spam 3:44:16.160 --> 3:44:21.520 filters are better, you know, mature and sophisticated and for 3:44:21.640 --> 3:44:24.280 the most part they work. Yeah, like they're yeah, it's 3:44:24.320 --> 3:44:27.240 like I can actually people can actually reach me by email. 3:44:28.160 --> 3:44:29.480 Yeah, that's pretty cool. 3:44:31.680 --> 3:44:35.240 And you know, like there's there's a whole tech like 3:44:35.480 --> 3:44:36.960 really kind of the big thing is there's this whole 3:44:36.959 --> 3:44:40.240 technological element to it. And you know when you when 3:44:40.280 --> 3:44:42.760 you sort of pitched the idea of this conversation with 3:44:42.840 --> 3:44:45.920 the first two places, my brain went to where John 3:44:46.000 --> 3:44:50.520 Romulus Brinkley, the goat testicle doctor, yes, yes, yes, and 3:44:51.360 --> 3:44:59.840 pioneer of new media radio, and of course and Marshall mccluan, Yeah, 3:45:00.000 --> 3:45:01.760 you know, like those those were the those were the 3:45:01.800 --> 3:45:04.280 two things that my brain immediately was like, this is 3:45:04.480 --> 3:45:06.360 this is sort of like relevant to it, because like 3:45:06.840 --> 3:45:10.000 Brinkley was, he was a pioneer of radio. 3:45:10.280 --> 3:45:13.360 He he absolutely. 3:45:14.440 --> 3:45:17.640 Advanced sort of the format of like what radio could 3:45:17.680 --> 3:45:21.280 be and how you could use radio to not just 3:45:21.520 --> 3:45:25.720 extract money from people, but get them onto your side 3:45:26.080 --> 3:45:29.560 such that after they have given you their money, like 3:45:29.760 --> 3:45:33.520 they're they're not just they're not just your your victims, 3:45:33.640 --> 3:45:36.520 You're you're not just rolling into town and selling them 3:45:36.600 --> 3:45:40.160 some some snake oil and then like skid daddling as 3:45:40.240 --> 3:45:44.360 fast as possible, you have made them into your fans, 3:45:44.879 --> 3:45:48.080 into your followers. And you know the way that he 3:45:48.200 --> 3:45:51.280 did that by connecting his scam to like a sense 3:45:51.320 --> 3:45:54.959 of identity. You know that he wasn't just this fake doctor. 3:45:55.040 --> 3:45:57.439 He was also effectively a pastor. 3:45:57.840 --> 3:46:01.160 Yeah, yeah, people who had defend it after there was 3:46:01.280 --> 3:46:05.200 no longer any chance of them, like after it had 3:46:05.240 --> 3:46:07.880 been sort of proven that the thing that he was 3:46:07.959 --> 3:46:11.520 promising was not real, right like once there was no more. 3:46:11.959 --> 3:46:14.039 It's almost like you know that play The Music Man, 3:46:14.520 --> 3:46:16.880 Yeah yeah, if you if you at home or not, 3:46:17.160 --> 3:46:18.880 Like I'm not a huge musical theater guy, that's a 3:46:18.920 --> 3:46:20.840 pretty famous play. But like the basic idea is this 3:46:20.959 --> 3:46:24.119 guy tells everyone come, this con man comes to town, 3:46:24.200 --> 3:46:26.400 tells everyone he's gonna make like a big band and 3:46:26.520 --> 3:46:28.480 raises money for it, and his plan is to like 3:46:28.920 --> 3:46:30.840 take the money and run. It's kind of what the 3:46:30.920 --> 3:46:33.240 Monoail Sketch and The Simpsons is based on to a 3:46:33.280 --> 3:46:38.040 significant extent. And if I'm remembering correctly, I shouldn't have 3:46:38.240 --> 3:46:40.320 brought this up, maybe because I'm actually not that knowledgeable 3:46:40.360 --> 3:46:42.560 about musical theater. But my recollection of the way it 3:46:42.680 --> 3:46:45.119 goes is that like he falls in lover some shit 3:46:45.200 --> 3:46:47.720 and feels bad, and you know, they wind up he 3:46:47.959 --> 3:46:50.280 winds up becoming not a con man, but like I 3:46:50.680 --> 3:46:53.240 think the modern version of that is he just he 3:46:53.360 --> 3:46:56.160 gets people to like adopt as a religion. The idea 3:46:56.240 --> 3:46:59.400 that these fucking trombones and uniforms and tubes and shit 3:46:59.440 --> 3:47:02.240 are on the way. He and like, you know, then 3:47:02.280 --> 3:47:06.520 they attack the local newspaper and string a journalist up 3:47:06.520 --> 3:47:08.320 in the center of town for telling them that there 3:47:09.080 --> 3:47:13.280 were ten years into this city, hasn't started a bay anyway, whatever, Yeah, yeah, 3:47:13.280 --> 3:47:14.080 and so so. 3:47:14.200 --> 3:47:18.720 The other mccluan, you know, his famous postulate, the medium 3:47:18.840 --> 3:47:22.400 is the message, which remains a radical observation to this day, 3:47:23.120 --> 3:47:27.879 is just that it's this assertion that the medium itself 3:47:28.320 --> 3:47:30.920 is more important than any given message on it, or 3:47:31.040 --> 3:47:36.600 even the like the the combined weight of the individual messages. Now, 3:47:37.959 --> 3:47:40.160 I think in some regards mccluan kind of went like 3:47:41.160 --> 3:47:43.640 overboard with that because he said that it's like content 3:47:43.760 --> 3:47:45.959 doesn't matter at all, and it's like, ah, I think 3:47:46.120 --> 3:47:49.480 content matters. But the point still stands that like the 3:47:49.640 --> 3:47:53.080 medium itself, the like the invention of radio, the invention 3:47:53.240 --> 3:47:56.720 of television, the invention of the Internet, the invention of 3:47:56.800 --> 3:48:00.840 social media had a bigger, like has had a bigger 3:48:00.920 --> 3:48:03.880 impact than any given thing on it, because that's the 3:48:04.040 --> 3:48:08.440 thing that ultimately we warp our lives around, that we 3:48:08.640 --> 3:48:13.200 restructure our homes around, we restructure our physical environment around 3:48:13.560 --> 3:48:17.840 we restructure how we spend our days like that our 3:48:18.000 --> 3:48:23.360 time usage gets warped around the medium itself, and thus 3:48:23.840 --> 3:48:26.840 the medium becomes the portal for information to travel through. 3:48:27.800 --> 3:48:30.800 Absolutely and it also I mean, I think there's an 3:48:30.840 --> 3:48:33.880 extent to which that is true of kind of the 3:48:33.959 --> 3:48:38.640 way parasocial dynamics impact things like political belief. I think 3:48:38.680 --> 3:48:40.600 there are a lot of people, and I think there 3:48:40.640 --> 3:48:42.640 are a lot of things that people a lot of, 3:48:42.720 --> 3:48:46.000 especially when it comes to like radical politics, that people 3:48:46.080 --> 3:48:50.800 adopt because somebody who they had come to already like 3:48:51.160 --> 3:48:54.280 expresses those politics, right, and so something that maybe never 3:48:54.320 --> 3:48:57.640 would have gotten any purchase with them suddenly is able 3:48:57.680 --> 3:48:59.880 to get purchase with them because like a dude that 3:49:00.080 --> 3:49:03.879 they or a lady that they had a parasocial relationship 3:49:04.080 --> 3:49:06.720 express this kind of stuff. And it just it's not 3:49:06.840 --> 3:49:08.880 that it like hacks their brain. It's not that like 3:49:09.080 --> 3:49:14.680 people are you know, little robots. It's that, uh, this 3:49:14.880 --> 3:49:17.000 is kind of the way influence works. It's the same 3:49:17.080 --> 3:49:21.040 reason why like your you like, people often wind up 3:49:21.080 --> 3:49:24.120 believing similar things to their parents, or similar things to 3:49:24.160 --> 3:49:27.440 their friends group. You know, if your friends are all saying, 3:49:27.600 --> 3:49:29.920 like you know, on the positive end of things. If 3:49:29.960 --> 3:49:32.600 you're if you grow up like like I did. I 3:49:32.640 --> 3:49:34.120 don't know about your high school, but if. 3:49:34.040 --> 3:49:36.720 You are like I like that. I was just thinking 3:49:36.800 --> 3:49:37.200 the same thing. 3:49:37.280 --> 3:49:41.000 Like my vocabulary in high school was yeah, yeah, there 3:49:41.080 --> 3:49:43.600 is there's a slur that starts with F that was 3:49:43.680 --> 3:49:45.560 like every third word out of not just my mouth, 3:49:45.600 --> 3:49:46.640 but everyone I knew. 3:49:46.760 --> 3:49:46.800 No. 3:49:47.440 --> 3:49:50.720 The movie super Bad captures this to a significant degree 3:49:50.720 --> 3:49:54.160 of fidelity. To be honest, that's just the way shit was. 3:49:54.240 --> 3:49:57.920 And like the early aughts, and then you know, the 3:49:58.000 --> 3:50:01.000 people I hung around with, suddenly they were more people 3:50:01.040 --> 3:50:04.320 who were openly queer. And suddenly people weren't talking that way, 3:50:04.480 --> 3:50:07.400 and I stopped talking that way. It's just how people are. 3:50:07.520 --> 3:50:10.960 Yeah, just from like somebody that I admired being like, hey, yeah, 3:50:11.000 --> 3:50:12.960 I don't say that. I don't think that's cool. Oh 3:50:14.400 --> 3:50:15.520 that is kind of fucked up. 3:50:15.560 --> 3:50:19.280 Yeah, And then you know, and it's it's not an 3:50:19.600 --> 3:50:21.440 like yeah, I can I can go to my the 3:50:21.520 --> 3:50:23.880 subreddit for my show and see people being like yeah, 3:50:23.880 --> 3:50:27.160 I started getting interested in like anarchist politics and history 3:50:27.200 --> 3:50:29.560 and stuff because of something Robert said. And I don't 3:50:29.560 --> 3:50:32.160 think that's bad, because I think anarchist's history and politics 3:50:32.200 --> 3:50:35.080 are useful even if you're not an anarchist, right, it's 3:50:35.160 --> 3:50:39.400 valuable to understand that history. It's often undertold. But this 3:50:39.600 --> 3:50:42.520 is the same dynamic. This thing which has benefited me 3:50:42.640 --> 3:50:44.680 and to some extent benefited some of the ideas that 3:50:44.760 --> 3:50:47.440 I think are are should be more widely known. This 3:50:47.560 --> 3:50:49.840 is also why there's more nazis, right, like it's it's 3:50:49.960 --> 3:50:54.600 it's that's every where, which way and so so mccluan. 3:50:54.720 --> 3:50:57.000 You get these new mediums, you get the Internet, you 3:50:57.120 --> 3:50:59.960 get the subdivisions of the Internet, like you get social media, 3:51:00.160 --> 3:51:04.680 you get email, you get you know, instant messaging and whatnot. 3:51:04.920 --> 3:51:10.120 And because those technologies have this gravitational effect around them 3:51:10.560 --> 3:51:14.880 that alters the trajectory of how we structure our lives, 3:51:16.760 --> 3:51:21.800 they become because they are potent, because they are valuable 3:51:21.880 --> 3:51:28.520 communication vectors. They become prime targets for grift. And the 3:51:28.600 --> 3:51:31.360 thing is is that all of these technologies that have 3:51:31.480 --> 3:51:36.000 accelerated communication, you know, people have long been pointing out 3:51:36.120 --> 3:51:39.600 like the negative impacts of social media and just like 3:51:40.440 --> 3:51:45.120 the the effect on like self esteem, self perception of 3:51:45.320 --> 3:51:51.800 just being exposed to other people's curated idealized version of 3:51:51.880 --> 3:51:57.680 themselves so constantly. You know, it's like it's like that's 3:51:57.800 --> 3:52:04.320 already you know, impactful in potentially negative ways, and that's 3:52:04.360 --> 3:52:08.800 when you're dealing with like real people. And but then 3:52:10.240 --> 3:52:12.240 you add on to that that it's like, oh, you 3:52:12.400 --> 3:52:15.520 go on Instagram and like you can be following a 3:52:15.680 --> 3:52:18.720 bot and not even know it. You know, you're you're 3:52:18.760 --> 3:52:21.560 getting you know, and the algorithm is going to float 3:52:21.600 --> 3:52:23.840 this stuff. And so particularly if you're looking down these 3:52:23.920 --> 3:52:31.360 like these addictive infinite scroll feeds, you know, you don't 3:52:31.440 --> 3:52:36.080 have the filter of pre interaction to to gauge those things. 3:52:36.480 --> 3:52:38.840 So like so like I follow you on Twitter, and 3:52:38.960 --> 3:52:41.200 I know that if I see, like, oh, Robert Evans 3:52:41.240 --> 3:52:43.560 has retweeted this thing, that it's like okay, so like 3:52:44.000 --> 3:52:47.040 he's taken a look at it and and it's been 3:52:47.080 --> 3:52:50.320 through like the filter, the filter of his brain, and 3:52:50.480 --> 3:52:52.800 so I can probably just like, you know, take my 3:52:52.960 --> 3:52:56.360 trust in that thing up like one notch, right, But 3:52:56.480 --> 3:52:59.760 if I'm just like scrolling down the like the algorithmically 3:53:00.080 --> 3:53:03.520 he rated like this is what our computer has determined 3:53:03.720 --> 3:53:06.000 is similar to things that. 3:53:06.080 --> 3:53:10.640 You have already looked at. It's it's just it's so 3:53:10.800 --> 3:53:11.680 much more fraught. 3:53:12.080 --> 3:53:15.480 But there's it's really easy to be complacent and just 3:53:15.600 --> 3:53:20.280 be like, oh, I trust this thing, I trust this platform. 3:53:20.320 --> 3:53:22.440 And that's where we get into the trow of disappointment. 3:53:22.880 --> 3:53:26.400 Is ye this like I trust these algorithm. These algorithms 3:53:26.480 --> 3:53:28.800 do a really good job of like, oh, I watched 3:53:29.040 --> 3:53:32.680 Dan and so the YouTube algorithm introduced me to like 3:53:32.840 --> 3:53:33.440 a bunch. 3:53:33.240 --> 3:53:34.760 Of other really good creators. 3:53:35.560 --> 3:53:35.880 Cool. 3:53:36.560 --> 3:53:40.440 Uh oops, I watched one video on flat Earth and 3:53:40.800 --> 3:53:46.520 now my my recommends are full of like COVID denihialism 3:53:46.600 --> 3:53:51.280 and anti maskers and you know, the Trucker movement and 3:53:52.000 --> 3:53:55.440 and all of these other like wedges to just sort 3:53:55.480 --> 3:53:56.960 of slowly rot my brain. 3:53:58.560 --> 3:54:02.160 Yeah, it's like it it's it's like kind of the 3:54:02.200 --> 3:54:05.120 way our parents told us, or Dare or whatever told 3:54:05.200 --> 3:54:07.440 us drugs worked, you know when we were little kids, 3:54:07.760 --> 3:54:10.400 where someone's like, oh, you want some pot. Here's some 3:54:10.680 --> 3:54:12.920 straight up heroin, right, Like you want some of it 3:54:13.040 --> 3:54:16.560 is too, like you want some crack cocaine? No, and 3:54:16.680 --> 3:54:19.400 I it is you know you were talking about, like, Yeah, 3:54:19.440 --> 3:54:22.320 you see you follow someone and you see them share something, 3:54:22.400 --> 3:54:24.440 and if they're a trusted source for you, you know, 3:54:24.520 --> 3:54:27.400 it bumps it up a notch and even that, you know, 3:54:27.600 --> 3:54:30.400 that's the way it like it works for me as well. 3:54:30.480 --> 3:54:33.760 But there's a degree to which I find it like problematic, 3:54:33.920 --> 3:54:37.400 especially because like we all fuck around on the internet too. 3:54:37.520 --> 3:54:39.880 I had a thing go crazy viral recently where like 3:54:40.000 --> 3:54:44.280 someone someone posted an obviously photoshopped image of like a control, 3:54:44.440 --> 3:54:47.120 like a Logitech controller at the bottom of the of 3:54:47.240 --> 3:54:50.680 the sea and was like, look the controllers survive, and I, like, 3:54:50.760 --> 3:54:52.400 I shared it to make a joke, right, And the 3:54:52.480 --> 3:54:55.080 joke was that, like, well, the joke was that, like, well, 3:54:55.120 --> 3:54:56.760 the controller we're going to find out was one of 3:54:56.800 --> 3:54:59.400 the more functional things about that terrible sub and that 3:54:59.560 --> 3:55:01.480 was and I posted underneath it this obviously this is 3:55:01.640 --> 3:55:03.960 not a real image, guys. But like then I saw 3:55:04.280 --> 3:55:07.440 like I wound up finding it went. The post that 3:55:07.520 --> 3:55:09.640 I did of it went so viral that like it 3:55:10.040 --> 3:55:12.920 wound up like screen captain in some different Reddit communities 3:55:12.960 --> 3:55:15.080 for people to talk about. And they it was only 3:55:15.160 --> 3:55:16.680 the first post, not the one where I was like, 3:55:16.680 --> 3:55:19.240 obviously this is fake, and like it was a joke, 3:55:19.640 --> 3:55:21.120 you know, it was it was a it was a 3:55:21.240 --> 3:55:22.200 it was a ship post. 3:55:22.800 --> 3:55:24.240 We were Banton online. 3:55:24.320 --> 3:55:26.960 Yeah yeah, yeah. But also I'm like, I wonder how 3:55:27.000 --> 3:55:30.480 many people now think that literally there's a Logitech controller 3:55:30.560 --> 3:55:32.200 that they found at the bottom of the sea because 3:55:32.200 --> 3:55:35.760 of that? What is what are the ethics now of 3:55:35.920 --> 3:55:39.040 like making a making a jib a jape as like 3:55:39.200 --> 3:55:41.360 somebody who's got like a following, like where does that 3:55:41.520 --> 3:55:43.320 come into? And like I don't know, and I don't 3:55:43.520 --> 3:55:46.520 I'm certainly not like clear on it because I seem 3:55:46.560 --> 3:55:49.200 to be incapable of not shit posting. I spent too 3:55:49.280 --> 3:55:53.920 much time on something awful as well. But it's so 3:55:54.200 --> 3:55:55.160 it's so hard. 3:55:55.000 --> 3:55:57.480 To give up. I miss it. I miss the days 3:55:57.520 --> 3:56:00.520 when I could just make like tasteless jokes on on 3:56:01.040 --> 3:56:05.240 on Twitter and you know, a couple hundred people would 3:56:05.240 --> 3:56:07.440 see them and go like that's funny. Uh. 3:56:07.720 --> 3:56:10.400 And now it's like, ah, if if I'm a little 3:56:10.440 --> 3:56:13.440 too ironic, someone's gonna be like, oh crap, are are 3:56:13.480 --> 3:56:14.640 you like that happened? 3:56:14.840 --> 3:56:17.320 It's like, no, no, that did not happen. Not happened. 3:56:17.400 --> 3:56:19.520 This is this is fake. I am. I am telling 3:56:19.560 --> 3:56:21.560 you lies. For it was a bit, but it was 3:56:21.640 --> 3:56:21.960 a bit. 3:56:22.440 --> 3:56:25.640 I was doing a bit, but no, and that's like 3:56:26.080 --> 3:56:29.000 you know Something Awful, which is kind of the the 3:56:29.480 --> 3:56:32.800 the digit It's like the oh crap, now I've forgotten 3:56:32.800 --> 3:56:34.680 a very basic science team, you know, the big, the 3:56:34.720 --> 3:56:37.600 big puddle of boiling goop. That life came out of 3:56:38.320 --> 3:56:43.320 the primori. It's the primordial, primordial of digital culture. That's 3:56:43.360 --> 3:56:45.080 what Something Awful was. 3:56:45.320 --> 3:56:48.680 It was a forum website that gave birth in various ways, 3:56:48.760 --> 3:56:52.160 some direct and some indirect, to four Chan, to Reddit, 3:56:53.120 --> 3:56:55.560 to Twitter culture, you know, to all of these different 3:56:55.600 --> 3:56:58.680 to anonymous, to all of these different like things have 3:56:58.800 --> 3:57:01.440 a you can trace a lineage back to Something Awful. 3:57:03.160 --> 3:57:06.280 And the motto of that website, as written by the 3:57:06.440 --> 3:57:09.440 terrible person who founded it, was the Internet makes you stupid. 3:57:10.640 --> 3:57:12.120 And I. 3:57:13.920 --> 3:57:16.400 At the time what that kind of meant was. And 3:57:16.640 --> 3:57:19.880 if you're younger, or if you just weren't very online 3:57:19.880 --> 3:57:21.680 in the late nineties early two thousands, you may not 3:57:21.800 --> 3:57:24.200 remember this long period, but there was a fairly long 3:57:24.280 --> 3:57:28.760 period where the default assumption in regular society was whatever 3:57:28.960 --> 3:57:33.320 happens online doesn't matter, right, like, it can't matter. 3:57:33.360 --> 3:57:37.800 It's probably fraudulent, it's almost certainly like made up. You 3:57:37.920 --> 3:57:41.320 can't you can't trust anything online and real. 3:57:41.280 --> 3:57:44.600 People are not on the internet, right, Like it's kids, 3:57:44.760 --> 3:57:47.560 it's nerds, but like, you know, guys who run banks 3:57:47.600 --> 3:57:50.240 aren't online. You know, Like the idea that the richest 3:57:50.280 --> 3:57:52.440 man in the world would spend all of his time 3:57:52.960 --> 3:57:57.320 shit posting was absurd, Like, so. 3:57:58.360 --> 3:58:01.080 He really should be busier than he had surfably, is he? 3:58:01.240 --> 3:58:03.320 Certainly it seems like it, although I guess so, shit, 3:58:03.400 --> 3:58:11.920 I I if I'm being fair, But yeah, it's there's this, uh, 3:58:13.400 --> 3:58:17.760 this degree to which digital culture is still very much 3:58:19.000 --> 3:58:21.200 a huge chunk of it. Like we all want it 3:58:21.360 --> 3:58:23.320 to not matter. We all want a place where we 3:58:23.400 --> 3:58:26.440 can just shit post and bullshit because shit posting and 3:58:26.480 --> 3:58:29.800 bullshitting comes out of like the very same impulses that 3:58:30.040 --> 3:58:32.320 like determine a lot of how we interact with like 3:58:32.400 --> 3:58:34.680 our friends, right, you know, we all need some times 3:58:34.680 --> 3:58:36.560 where you can just sit down, have a couple of 3:58:36.640 --> 3:58:40.200 beers or whatever, and like say shit with your with 3:58:40.320 --> 3:58:43.600 your buds, you know, and it's not it's not being recorded, 3:58:43.680 --> 3:58:46.560 it's not going up any everywhere forever. You can just 3:58:46.680 --> 3:58:49.440 kind of like talk. This is the it's a it's 3:58:49.480 --> 3:58:52.280 a field almost. Social experimentation is a huge part of 3:58:52.440 --> 3:58:57.000 maturity of growing up becoming a person. Uh, and I 3:58:57.120 --> 3:59:00.800 think we all get kind of there. There's a degree 3:59:00.880 --> 3:59:03.760 of like the accessibility of the Internet that makes that 3:59:04.240 --> 3:59:07.920 impossible to entirely get over, even though it is demonstrably untrue. 3:59:08.640 --> 3:59:11.120 What happens on the Internet matters quite a lot, and 3:59:11.520 --> 3:59:14.840 you can have a real significant you can influence your 3:59:14.880 --> 3:59:17.840 own life in very negative ways by saying the wrong 3:59:17.920 --> 3:59:19.520 thing on the Internet at the wrong time. 3:59:21.360 --> 3:59:21.560 Yeah. 3:59:21.800 --> 3:59:24.160 I mean lots of people have observed just this fact 3:59:24.160 --> 3:59:26.520 that it's like on Reddit, you can you're not on Reddit, 3:59:26.560 --> 3:59:29.160 I mean on Reddit too, but you know, on Twitter, 3:59:29.320 --> 3:59:34.320 like once, you know, once a month, Twitter elects some 3:59:36.120 --> 3:59:41.680 ten follower anime profile pick with who with with a 3:59:41.760 --> 3:59:45.560 single tasteless joke and makes it the full crim of reality. 3:59:47.040 --> 3:59:51.200 Yeah, And it's like that's a and the thing, I 3:59:51.680 --> 3:59:52.160 don't think. 3:59:52.080 --> 3:59:54.160 This is actually that far off topic, just because like 3:59:54.400 --> 3:59:58.760 it's this warping of reality, this warping of like what 3:59:59.040 --> 4:00:04.040 is real, what is trustworthy, what are the like impacts 4:00:04.120 --> 4:00:06.440 of things, And the fact that like you know, ten 4:00:06.560 --> 4:00:12.440 follower account can become can become international news, Yeah, has 4:00:12.560 --> 4:00:17.280 to sit alongside the endless bombardment of dick pills and 4:00:19.960 --> 4:00:22.480 global leaders, Like I had this joke that I was 4:00:22.520 --> 4:00:25.440 trying to formulate over the weekend of like World War 4:00:25.560 --> 4:00:29.640 two with Twitter, where it's like, you know, just a 4:00:29.760 --> 4:00:32.560 joke hinging on the idea that some like follower bought 4:00:32.880 --> 4:00:35.920 would observe this like, ah, it's like, you know, two 4:00:36.000 --> 4:00:38.040 posts in a row, Like it's like the USSR has 4:00:38.160 --> 4:00:41.800 rolled into Berlin, Stalin has unfriended the president. I hope 4:00:41.840 --> 4:00:45.760 this doesn't mean anything, you know that it's like that 4:00:45.840 --> 4:00:50.840 you have, like you have international politics happening in the 4:00:50.920 --> 4:00:55.480 same space as fake international politics, as the same space 4:00:55.600 --> 4:01:00.120 as just like this endless bombardment of you know, of 4:01:00.400 --> 4:01:06.280 curated reality, fictionalized reality, unreality and spam, and no one 4:01:06.360 --> 4:01:09.200 knows what's real anymore, no one knows what to trust, 4:01:09.600 --> 4:01:13.000 and the instinct and a lot of people is to 4:01:13.160 --> 4:01:15.520 just give up trying to parse the difference. And that 4:01:15.800 --> 4:01:18.280 makes us like increasingly vulnerable. 4:01:19.360 --> 4:01:26.960 Yeah, And I think a big part of what's what's 4:01:27.760 --> 4:01:29.520 kind of at the core of the problem here is 4:01:29.720 --> 4:01:32.000 is what you've said here makes us vulnerable. The degree 4:01:32.000 --> 4:01:35.680 to which this can be weaponized is really significant. Like 4:01:36.400 --> 4:01:37.960 the you know, one of the things that we saw 4:01:38.040 --> 4:01:40.120 that I think is kind of low key a significant 4:01:40.320 --> 4:01:44.240 moment in sort of info conflict. Shit is this last 4:01:45.120 --> 4:01:48.400 this weekend? Last weekend from you know what we're talking now, 4:01:49.520 --> 4:01:53.040 there was a mutiny by the Wagner mercenary forces in 4:01:53.560 --> 4:01:57.360 Ukraine and Southern Russia against the Russian government, or at 4:01:57.400 --> 4:01:59.640 least that's what it appears to have been now, right, 4:01:59.680 --> 4:02:01.920 this is Russia. A lot of this is really weird. 4:02:02.000 --> 4:02:04.560 So I'm not going to say we don't we certainly 4:02:04.600 --> 4:02:07.600 don't know entirely like what happened there, like what's going 4:02:07.640 --> 4:02:11.800 on there? But a couple of things happened very quickly. 4:02:11.880 --> 4:02:15.320 For one, folks on the right, and there were also 4:02:15.400 --> 4:02:18.520 a lot of kind of like shit had left people 4:02:18.600 --> 4:02:21.840 who adopted this too, decided that liberals were cheering on 4:02:22.600 --> 4:02:27.480 the head of Wagner Evgeny Pregoshin because like they believed 4:02:27.520 --> 4:02:29.360 he was a reformer and that like they'd all thought 4:02:29.440 --> 4:02:31.880 this guy, who was like objectively a piece of shit 4:02:32.000 --> 4:02:34.400 and a fascist is like they're cheering him on because 4:02:34.400 --> 4:02:37.000 they hate Putin so much and they've convinced themselves that he's, 4:02:37.320 --> 4:02:39.240 you know, going to fix Russia. And he's like, no, no, 4:02:39.520 --> 4:02:42.720 I didn't see that, Like look I love calling people 4:02:42.760 --> 4:02:45.840 out when they have shitty takes, specifically on this specific war, 4:02:45.840 --> 4:02:48.240 because I've been covering it since twenty fourteen. But like, 4:02:48.560 --> 4:02:50.800 I didn't see that, and none of the people talking 4:02:50.800 --> 4:02:54.360 about how liberals were doing this provided any evidence of it. 4:02:54.440 --> 4:02:56.800 And it happens all the time, right Sometimes people will 4:02:56.880 --> 4:02:59.400 like take a post that has like thirty likes and 4:02:59.520 --> 4:03:01.960 be like, this is what the left is saying. But 4:03:02.120 --> 4:03:04.280 like with this, there was even less. Like I didn't 4:03:04.280 --> 4:03:07.400 see a single post where someone was like, Pregosion's gonna 4:03:07.440 --> 4:03:09.920 like fix you know, corruption in Russia or whatever. No 4:03:10.040 --> 4:03:13.360 one was saying that they just invented that this was 4:03:13.440 --> 4:03:15.680 going on. And it part of it is that, like, 4:03:16.600 --> 4:03:18.360 you know, the way Twitter works now made it a 4:03:18.400 --> 4:03:21.240 lot easier for dis info to spread from this thing. 4:03:21.400 --> 4:03:23.960 Like there was very famously a guy who is an 4:03:24.120 --> 4:03:27.240 absolutely a con artist just started sharing a bunch of 4:03:27.360 --> 4:03:30.520 videos from there with like bad commentary that was inaccurate, 4:03:30.720 --> 4:03:32.760 and Elon Musk was like, this is the guy I've. 4:03:32.640 --> 4:03:35.160 Come to trust about. You can say Elon Musk, Yeah, 4:03:35.240 --> 4:03:39.920 we can say Elon Musk. I don't know, it's a problem, Dan, So. 4:03:40.080 --> 4:03:42.200 You beat me to Elon Musk because I was going 4:03:42.280 --> 4:03:44.120 to say this like the con artist was, but then 4:03:44.160 --> 4:03:46.080 it turns out that he was just retweeting that guy. 4:03:46.160 --> 4:03:48.520 It's like he got of course he got involved anyway. 4:03:48.680 --> 4:03:53.600 Yeah, yeah, And it's the I don't think this the 4:03:53.680 --> 4:03:56.760 solution was not because we lived, you know, our parents 4:03:56.840 --> 4:03:59.120 and grandparents lived to the day where most people would 4:03:59.120 --> 4:04:01.880 be like, well, you know, folks who are in politics 4:04:02.040 --> 4:04:03.880 maybe need to care about this. I might want to 4:04:03.920 --> 4:04:07.080 get the broad strokes of it, but like random people, 4:04:07.480 --> 4:04:11.280 you know, shouldn't be influencing what's going on with these 4:04:11.360 --> 4:04:13.720 international relations. And that's how you get shited, like the 4:04:13.800 --> 4:04:16.600 Dulles brothers carrying out coups all over the world on 4:04:16.680 --> 4:04:18.920 behalf of the US government, where most Americans are. 4:04:18.840 --> 4:04:20.440 Like, what did we do in Guatemala? I didn't know 4:04:20.480 --> 4:04:23.360 we had guys in Guatemala and that wasn't great. But 4:04:23.480 --> 4:04:27.679 also this new thing where if you are a personality, 4:04:27.880 --> 4:04:32.000 if you are in media, then you are obliged to 4:04:32.160 --> 4:04:35.200 be a part of every big thing that happens everywhere, 4:04:35.400 --> 4:04:39.000 even if you are demonstrably incompetent at that and everyone 4:04:39.080 --> 4:04:40.640 is demonstrably incompetent at that. 4:04:40.840 --> 4:04:43.800 Past a certain point you know. Yeah, and that's been 4:04:44.160 --> 4:04:46.480 Oh boy has that. That's been a lot to deal with. 4:04:47.000 --> 4:04:50.000 And it going back to the original thing that started 4:04:50.040 --> 4:04:52.680 this conversation. That's part of how so many of these 4:04:52.800 --> 4:04:58.120 cons perpetuate is that, like, people are only competent, including 4:04:58.240 --> 4:05:02.720 famous people, including people with followings in limited areas, and 4:05:02.880 --> 4:05:05.320 once you get out of your area of competence, it's 4:05:05.400 --> 4:05:07.560 easy to get fooled. And if there's a bunch of 4:05:07.640 --> 4:05:09.520 people who trust you because of the things you were 4:05:09.600 --> 4:05:12.440 right about, then they can very easily get fooled when 4:05:12.440 --> 4:05:13.160 you get fooled. 4:05:13.720 --> 4:05:17.600 One of the big hazards there is that, and this 4:05:17.800 --> 4:05:22.520 is a long standing observation, is that huckster's con artists 4:05:23.200 --> 4:05:26.520 are going to be more willing than anyone else to 4:05:26.760 --> 4:05:27.480 pretend to. 4:05:29.040 --> 4:05:30.000 Be up to date on it. 4:05:30.720 --> 4:05:32.880 They have no compunction about being It's like, oh, yeah, 4:05:32.920 --> 4:05:36.680 I know, I'm an expert on submarines and Ukraine and 4:05:37.000 --> 4:05:39.520 Russia and Belarus. 4:05:39.960 --> 4:05:41.240 Yeah, you know. 4:05:41.400 --> 4:05:41.960 So they're. 4:05:44.520 --> 4:05:46.160 The reason it's a con man is because it's a 4:05:46.200 --> 4:05:48.800 confidence man. Because they get your confidence because they act 4:05:48.960 --> 4:05:52.480 confidently and give you reason to give you reason to 4:05:52.520 --> 4:05:55.320 trust them, and they have no moral compunction about lying 4:05:55.400 --> 4:05:58.680 to you. Uh, and and they are always going to 4:05:58.800 --> 4:06:04.200 be fast with the take, faster with the confidence statement, 4:06:04.520 --> 4:06:08.280 faster with the solution, faster with the with with a 4:06:08.360 --> 4:06:11.240 call to action to buy their book or dick pills. 4:06:12.320 --> 4:06:15.600 Yeah, and it's it's the And often I think part 4:06:15.640 --> 4:06:17.280 one of the things that's made this all so much 4:06:17.320 --> 4:06:19.320 harder to catch and so much more durable is that 4:06:19.400 --> 4:06:22.000 it's it used to be as obvious. You used to 4:06:22.000 --> 4:06:23.640 be able to see like, Okay, well, this guy's a 4:06:23.680 --> 4:06:26.640 con man. But like, I'm not a person who can 4:06:26.680 --> 4:06:30.160 be conned by someone selling diet pills. That's not my vulnerability, 4:06:30.200 --> 4:06:32.360 so I immediately recognize this guy as a con man. 4:06:32.480 --> 4:06:34.560 Or I am not a person who can be conned 4:06:34.680 --> 4:06:37.680 by Christianity stuff because I'm not a Christian, So I'm 4:06:38.160 --> 4:06:41.000 I'm not vulnerable to this con man. And now so 4:06:41.200 --> 4:06:46.560 much the cons are downstream of the following and of 4:06:46.680 --> 4:06:49.720 the fame, and so a lot of people are getting 4:06:49.800 --> 4:06:52.240 taken in by conman. And maybe you know the fact 4:06:52.240 --> 4:06:54.640 that person's putting in a link for their there's supplements, 4:06:54.760 --> 4:06:58.160 you know, on every viral post. You don't buy their supplements, 4:06:58.440 --> 4:07:00.600 but they'll come up with something else for you once 4:07:00.640 --> 4:07:04.120 they get you in, once you're in the funnel, or 4:07:04.200 --> 4:07:06.920 even if they never convince you to buy anything, if 4:07:06.960 --> 4:07:10.000 you're sharing their content, that's bringing more people into the funnel, 4:07:10.320 --> 4:07:12.280 you know, and that really wasn't the case. That wasn't 4:07:12.280 --> 4:07:14.600 the case with you know, you go back ten years 4:07:14.640 --> 4:07:16.640 talking about like Young Living right, or some other like 4:07:16.720 --> 4:07:19.960 multi level marketing company where they're selling you know, essential 4:07:20.040 --> 4:07:24.160 oils with fraudulent health claims. They weren't getting random people 4:07:24.320 --> 4:07:26.880 to spread their business without paying for shit. 4:07:27.240 --> 4:07:28.280 And now you can do that. 4:07:28.320 --> 4:07:30.960 If you're a con man and you've already got followers 4:07:31.000 --> 4:07:34.160 because you bought a bunch and you're you're on the Ukraine, shit, 4:07:34.240 --> 4:07:37.600 you just grab whatever videos and say whatever about them, 4:07:37.880 --> 4:07:39.920 you know, frame them in whatever way is likely to 4:07:40.000 --> 4:07:42.800 get people to share them the most. Then suddenly you 4:07:42.880 --> 4:07:45.400 gain two thousand, three hundred thousand followers in the space 4:07:45.440 --> 4:07:47.720 of a night or two, and your ability to scam 4:07:47.840 --> 4:07:50.560 people and get money out of them has increased several times. 4:07:51.320 --> 4:07:56.200 You know, the con is downstream of the of the platform, right, 4:07:56.360 --> 4:08:00.440 so you know that's you get this guy, maybe he's 4:08:00.440 --> 4:08:02.880 shilling thing X or thing. Why he's got a couple 4:08:03.040 --> 4:08:06.760 you know, whatever different con he has, But regular people 4:08:07.080 --> 4:08:09.800 can be in the in the business of spreading his platform, 4:08:09.920 --> 4:08:13.200 of increasing his profitability, even if they're not vulnerable to 4:08:13.280 --> 4:08:14.840 the con. Maybe they're not the kind of person who's 4:08:14.840 --> 4:08:18.480 ever going to buy weight loss pills or supplements or 4:08:18.520 --> 4:08:22.320 whatever kind of thing. But if this guy starts, you know, 4:08:22.880 --> 4:08:25.640 sharing all of these videos on the fighting in Ukraine, 4:08:25.760 --> 4:08:27.360 you know, at a moment when it happens to be 4:08:27.480 --> 4:08:30.840 the opportune moment to do that, and they go crazy viral, well, 4:08:30.840 --> 4:08:33.800 then that guy is able to triple his following and 4:08:34.440 --> 4:08:36.920 you know, and have people who are not interested in 4:08:37.000 --> 4:08:39.880 his con spread his shit, which gets him followers, which 4:08:39.920 --> 4:08:42.400 brings more traffic to whatever the money generating part of 4:08:42.480 --> 4:08:42.960 the con is. 4:08:45.200 --> 4:08:50.840 Yeah, it's it's all a sales funnel or just anxiety. 4:08:52.320 --> 4:08:55.440 We have built our society into just like a giant 4:08:55.640 --> 4:08:59.520 nested series of sales funnels. Yeah, I don't know, Dan, 4:08:59.720 --> 4:09:02.000 that's bound to be a solid foundation. I don't see 4:09:02.000 --> 4:09:03.680 if you go wrong. That seems like that will go 4:09:03.800 --> 4:09:06.200 well for us. How do we get any ideas on 4:09:06.240 --> 4:09:08.680 how to fix it? Or should we just should we 4:09:08.880 --> 4:09:11.560 just state a problem and then run away? I mean 4:09:11.640 --> 4:09:15.120 the easy thing to do would be to restore trust 4:09:15.200 --> 4:09:16.840 in our public institutions. 4:09:18.720 --> 4:09:20.560 You know, if we could. 4:09:22.280 --> 4:09:25.800 Have sort of like I don't even want to say, 4:09:25.880 --> 4:09:29.640 like a unifying cause, but just a sense of common 4:09:29.960 --> 4:09:34.360 of like shared commonalty and and trust in like our 4:09:34.600 --> 4:09:39.360 local our local society, you know, strong like not necessarily 4:09:39.400 --> 4:09:44.320 strong families, but like strong family units constructed or natural 4:09:44.600 --> 4:09:47.360 or however you want to like define our constructors, but 4:09:47.480 --> 4:09:51.080 like local with like good infrastructure around us so that 4:09:51.280 --> 4:09:55.520 our physical spaces are you know, appealing and comfortable to 4:09:55.680 --> 4:09:58.240 live in and and provide us a sense of like 4:09:58.520 --> 4:10:02.720 enrichment and fulfill you know, the easy stuff. Yeah, just 4:10:02.880 --> 4:10:07.720 just fix infrastructure, fix society, fix media, and uh and 4:10:07.920 --> 4:10:08.680 then I think we're good. 4:10:09.480 --> 4:10:09.680 Yeah. 4:10:09.920 --> 4:10:12.520 Yeah, so that's that's good. So if we fix everything, 4:10:12.600 --> 4:10:16.160 then we won't have any more problems. That's great. We're 4:10:16.200 --> 4:10:18.400 on the same page now. I mean it is really 4:10:18.560 --> 4:10:21.400 like and this is there's it's also there's also this 4:10:21.520 --> 4:10:23.720 kind of like problematic element of when you're like, well, 4:10:23.760 --> 4:10:26.560 we want to like a problem is that there's zero 4:10:26.680 --> 4:10:29.680 trust in institutions objectively a problem because it means that 4:10:29.720 --> 4:10:32.800 when say the CDC is like, hey, guys, there's this, 4:10:33.000 --> 4:10:34.800 there's a plague, we should probably do this, and this 4:10:34.920 --> 4:10:37.520 and this. It immediately becomes a culture war thing, and 4:10:37.640 --> 4:10:41.560 so you can't actually you can't actually confront serious problems 4:10:41.600 --> 4:10:43.400 the way that you need to be able to confront them. 4:10:43.680 --> 4:10:49.160 It's just not possible anymore. Likewise, Like, but the other 4:10:49.240 --> 4:10:51.400 issue is that, like, well, for a significant chunks of 4:10:51.400 --> 4:10:54.520 the population, there's never been any good reason to trust, 4:10:54.760 --> 4:10:57.680 you know, the institutions because you know, they're marginalized groups 4:10:57.720 --> 4:11:00.960 and whatever. You know, when the institution trust was higher, 4:11:01.120 --> 4:11:02.920 like the government was fucking them in this way and 4:11:03.000 --> 4:11:06.960 that way, and yeah, you know that's also so I wonder, 4:11:07.640 --> 4:11:09.960 like I think there's a significant extent to which we 4:11:10.120 --> 4:11:14.440 need new concepts of like what an institution is and 4:11:15.040 --> 4:11:17.760 should be, Like we need It's it's such a ground 4:11:17.880 --> 4:11:21.040 floor problem because like I don't know, we're never getting 4:11:21.080 --> 4:11:23.760 back to a point where Americans trust the CDC. Like 4:11:23.840 --> 4:11:26.440 that's just not going to happen, you know, Like whatever 4:11:26.640 --> 4:11:30.880 the way forward is on us having less the overcoming 4:11:30.960 --> 4:11:34.440 the anti vax anti science shit around medicine, it's not 4:11:34.760 --> 4:11:37.280 getting everyone to love the CDC. You know, that's just 4:11:37.400 --> 4:11:38.760 not ever going to happen again. 4:11:39.000 --> 4:11:39.200 Yeah. 4:11:39.600 --> 4:11:42.040 And part of the complexity here is that it's it's 4:11:42.080 --> 4:11:45.200 really easy to sort of say that, you know, it's like, Okay, well, 4:11:45.280 --> 4:11:49.880 the solution is like strong central institutions, and it's like 4:11:49.960 --> 4:11:55.320 that's not that's not correct at all either, because like 4:11:55.760 --> 4:11:58.120 I mean, the my go to example for that would 4:11:58.160 --> 4:11:59.800 be that it's like look at look at the LDS, 4:12:00.120 --> 4:12:02.920 look at Mormons. They have a very very strong central 4:12:03.000 --> 4:12:08.120 institution that provides this like social anchoring point for a 4:12:08.200 --> 4:12:11.840 lot of their lives, and yet Mormon communities are incredibly 4:12:11.960 --> 4:12:17.040 vulnerable to affinity fraud and MLM's you know, like Utah 4:12:17.200 --> 4:12:22.520 Salt Lake is like the locus of MLM culture, and 4:12:22.720 --> 4:12:27.400 so like it's not the sort of like strong man like, ah, 4:12:27.480 --> 4:12:30.480 this is why we need strong like you know, strong. 4:12:30.360 --> 4:12:31.560 Leaders is is not. 4:12:33.240 --> 4:12:36.160 Isn't the answer in its own way, even if it's 4:12:36.200 --> 4:12:39.160 a very tempting sort of like answer to gravitate towards. 4:12:39.280 --> 4:12:44.240 Yeah, that's that's I don't know. I don't actually know. 4:12:47.320 --> 4:12:49.680 Part of the problem is that like there are little solutions, right, 4:12:49.760 --> 4:12:51.600 there are little things that you can do, stuff like 4:12:51.760 --> 4:12:57.240 advocating for you know, a more functional idea of like 4:12:57.480 --> 4:12:59.680 more a more functional legal definition of like what an 4:12:59.720 --> 4:13:03.000 auto dialer is and what counts as like illegally sort 4:13:03.040 --> 4:13:05.560 of like flooding phone lines with with with cons and 4:13:05.600 --> 4:13:08.480 stuff or restricting you know, the ability of people like 4:13:08.680 --> 4:13:12.600 bill collectors and stuff to utilize you know, the phone 4:13:12.680 --> 4:13:14.400 system in some of the ways that they do, like 4:13:14.480 --> 4:13:18.680 the and that can make stuff better. Just like you know, 4:13:18.760 --> 4:13:22.880 at a certain point, we will develop tools that mitigate 4:13:23.040 --> 4:13:25.480 some of the harm AI is doing in the con space. 4:13:25.560 --> 4:13:28.160 Some of its ability to automate and push shit to 4:13:28.280 --> 4:13:31.280 people at scale will get reduced at a certain point. 4:13:31.280 --> 4:13:33.280 That will happen, right, because it happens with everything. You know, 4:13:33.360 --> 4:13:34.520 AI is not unique. 4:13:35.560 --> 4:13:36.680 This is the It's it's a. 4:13:37.000 --> 4:13:40.360 You've heard the you've heard the red Queen hypothesis, right, Yeah, 4:13:40.560 --> 4:13:42.320 it's kind of a way of like for it's kind 4:13:42.360 --> 4:13:44.480 of like a way of looking at evolutionary theory. There's 4:13:44.520 --> 4:13:48.000 this this point in Alice in Wonderland where you know, 4:13:48.120 --> 4:13:51.160 the Red Queen kind of like traps Alice in this 4:13:51.280 --> 4:13:53.880 situation where like she's got to keep running as fast 4:13:53.920 --> 4:13:58.120 as she can. But it's like a situation like a 4:13:58.200 --> 4:14:01.440 conveyor belt sort of situations. No matter how hard she runs, 4:14:01.760 --> 4:14:04.080 she never gets ahead, right, And that's kind of the 4:14:04.160 --> 4:14:07.600 way that like the evolutionary arms race works, right, Like 4:14:08.040 --> 4:14:10.560 you know, one one animal develops a defense against a 4:14:10.600 --> 4:14:12.960 predator and the predator develops a way around it, and 4:14:13.120 --> 4:14:17.960 like the the the like, that's kind of the best 4:14:18.040 --> 4:14:20.920 case scenario for how we adapt to cons I think actually, 4:14:21.080 --> 4:14:24.080 like technology just moves too fast now for us to 4:14:24.760 --> 4:14:26.720 to be able to keep up, right, Like we're not 4:14:27.160 --> 4:14:30.760 We're not just standing in place. We're consistently following behind 4:14:31.080 --> 4:14:34.960 and I don't know, I don't know what we do here, uh, I. 4:14:35.000 --> 4:14:37.680 Mean yeah, so like there will there will be technol 4:14:37.880 --> 4:14:42.240 technological solutions to specific manifestations. I mean a big one 4:14:42.440 --> 4:14:45.160 like in there, like to not to not ban is 4:14:45.240 --> 4:14:50.600 that you know the uh uh at a, the legal system, 4:14:50.760 --> 4:14:54.200 the governments, Like governments need to do something about the 4:14:54.360 --> 4:14:58.160 robocalling and the text messages because they're rendering a vital 4:14:58.240 --> 4:15:02.600 piece of like synek infrastructure unusable. Yeah, people don't trust 4:15:02.720 --> 4:15:08.120 their phones anymore, and that's that's bad because it means 4:15:08.160 --> 4:15:09.040 they stop using it. 4:15:09.360 --> 4:15:09.520 You know. 4:15:09.640 --> 4:15:14.800 It's like there's yeah, there's very real like consequences and 4:15:15.960 --> 4:15:18.840 we need to be able to trust that we're talking 4:15:19.440 --> 4:15:24.120 to people who aren't just trying to get our money. 4:15:24.840 --> 4:15:30.600 Yeah, yep, Well, Dan, you got anything you want to 4:15:30.640 --> 4:15:33.480 plug at the end of this. Here your YouTube channel, 4:15:33.520 --> 4:15:36.480 Folding Ideas everyone should check out if you have not already. 4:15:37.160 --> 4:15:39.600 Yeah, the YouTube channel that's going to be the big one. 4:15:40.280 --> 4:15:40.840 I'm still on. 4:15:41.200 --> 4:15:43.840 I'm on socials at Foldable Human, though I'm trying to 4:15:43.920 --> 4:15:46.200 wean myself off of them because they're broken and being 4:15:46.280 --> 4:15:49.880 broken on purpose and they're bad for my soul. So 4:15:50.440 --> 4:15:53.120 I still I'm addicted, So I still keep coming back, 4:15:53.280 --> 4:15:55.600 but I'm a lot less active than I used to be. 4:15:56.120 --> 4:15:58.480 Oh sorry, I didn't hear you. I was too busy 4:15:58.760 --> 4:16:00.640 getting anxious because of a thing on Twitter. 4:16:03.760 --> 4:16:03.800 No. 4:16:04.000 --> 4:16:07.440 Yeah, Dan, thank you so much for coming on today. 4:16:07.440 --> 4:16:10.040 I really appreciate your thoughts on all of this. I'm 4:16:10.080 --> 4:16:14.640 looking forward to your next video, your next investigation, whatever 4:16:14.720 --> 4:16:18.120 that happens to be. Folks should check out. If you haven't, 4:16:18.640 --> 4:16:21.800 Line goes up your documentary on NFTs. You should check 4:16:21.840 --> 4:16:25.160 out entrepreneurs is I think what you called your Mickelson 4:16:25.200 --> 4:16:30.600 Twins documentary. Yeah, check out everything Dan has done. Thank you, Dan, 4:16:30.840 --> 4:16:33.920 And that is the episode you can all go home 4:16:34.040 --> 4:16:37.560 now and deal with the fact that your bank information 4:16:37.960 --> 4:16:44.240 just got stolen by somebody in Macedonia. Hey, we'll be 4:16:44.320 --> 4:16:47.640 back Monday with more episodes every week from now until 4:16:47.680 --> 4:16:48.800 the heat death of the Universe. 4:16:49.440 --> 4:16:51.760 It Could Happen Here as a production of cool Zone Media. 4:16:52.040 --> 4:16:54.680 For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 4:16:54.720 --> 4:16:56.920 cool zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the 4:16:56.960 --> 4:17:00.400 iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. 4:17:00.800 --> 4:17:02.920 You can find sources for It Could Happen Here, updated 4:17:03.000 --> 4:17:07.000 monthly at coolzonemedia dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.