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Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let

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Speaker 1: you know this is a compilation episode, So every episode

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Speaker 1: of the week that just happened is here in one

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Speaker 1: convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to

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Speaker 1: listen to in a long stretch if you want. If

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Speaker 1: you've been listening to the episodes every day this week,

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Speaker 1: there's going to be nothing new here for you, but

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Speaker 1: you can make your own decisions.

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Speaker 2: Happy Monday, and we have a very special Monday episode.

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Speaker 2: We're doing a return of our Shitty Mayor Monday episodes

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Speaker 2: for this Monday, June.

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Speaker 3: Whatever.

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Speaker 2: The date is, twenty sixth, during the sixth week of

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Speaker 2: action in Atlanta to stop Cop City, so that is ongoing.

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Speaker 2: We're recording this is lightly ahead of times so that

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Speaker 2: we can release it during the week. So we don't

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Speaker 2: know what exactly how exactly.

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Speaker 4: Things are going to get this report. Nobody's been arrested

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Speaker 4: so far, everything's gone great.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's sure. So yeah, we don't quite know what

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Speaker 2: the first kickoff rally is going to be quite yet,

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Speaker 2: but we do want to talk a little bit about

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Speaker 2: a certain mayor for this Shitty Mayor Monday, and I

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Speaker 2: have convinced Matt from the Atlantic Community Press Collective to

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Speaker 2: do my work for me this episode by writing probably

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Speaker 2: too many words about may Or Andre Dickens.

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Speaker 4: It was only a little over what you told me

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Speaker 4: to write.

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Speaker 3: That's good. That's good. That's good.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, let's hear about. Let's hear about mister Dickens.

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Speaker 2: Matt to take take it away.

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Speaker 4: All right, So Andrea to Shawn. Dickens was born June seventeenth,

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Speaker 4: nineteen seventy four, the younger of two children. His mother

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Speaker 4: divorced Dickens's birth father before he was born, but stepfather

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Speaker 4: adopted him and his sister when Dickens was seven. Working

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Speaker 4: as an airline mechanic, Dickens' stepfather taught him how to

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Speaker 4: take things apart and put them back together, creating an

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Speaker 4: early interest in engineering for young Andre. He grew up

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Speaker 4: in Adamsville neighborhood, which went to Benjamin E. Mays High School,

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Speaker 4: which is in southwest Atlanta. Dickens says the neighborhood kids

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Speaker 4: were rough around the edges, as he told Atlanta Magazine

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Speaker 4: and quote, we fought often, but when the fighting escalated

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Speaker 4: to bats and brass knuckles, he changed course and turned

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Speaker 4: to baseball in books instead. At age sixteen, Dickens decided

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Speaker 4: that he wanted to be mayor after watching then Mayor

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Speaker 4: Andrew Young. This is about the time he also met

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Speaker 4: Shirley Franklin, whose son he played baseball with. Franklin was

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Speaker 4: Mayor Young's chief administrative officer at the time and spent

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Speaker 4: time mentoring Dickens as a teenager. She would also go

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Speaker 4: on to become mayor herself.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so Andrew Young, I know that name because that's

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Speaker 2: the street where the hard Rock Cafe is.

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Speaker 4: Is the street where the hard Rock Cafe is. He

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Speaker 4: went on to become an ambassador, ambassador to the hard

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Speaker 4: Rock to the hard Rock Cafe. That's also where the

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Speaker 4: Swat vehicle hung out across the Hooters exactly. Yeah, very

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Speaker 4: notable street in Atlanta.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: After a week long Minorities Interested in Technology and Engineering

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Speaker 4: program at Georgia Tech this summer before his senior year,

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Speaker 4: someone from the program handed him an application to Georgia Tech,

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Speaker 4: which he filled out while waiting on his mom to

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Speaker 4: pick him up. Tech was the only college that Dickens

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Speaker 4: applied to.

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Speaker 2: Huh, I mostly know Georgia Tech as the place that

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Speaker 2: like Raytheon and Lackey Martin go to recruit a whole

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Speaker 2: bunch of their employees.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, it's it's the tech engineering school of

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Speaker 4: the South, and all the good weapons manufacturers need to

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Speaker 4: get their good Southern engineering. Yeah, he did not go

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Speaker 4: that route, But it is kind of rare for black

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Speaker 4: politicians in general to come from schools outside of the HBCUs.

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Speaker 4: We've got that like big HBCU district here in Atlanta.

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Speaker 3: Can explain what that is.

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Speaker 4: Perfect historically black college and universities. There are a group

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Speaker 4: of them in kind of just off downtown Atlanta in

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Speaker 4: an area called the Atlanta University Center, So they're all

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Speaker 4: kind of together in that area and that is where

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Speaker 4: most of are like elected officials who become mayor come from.

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Speaker 4: Dickens is only the second mayor since nineteen seventy four

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Speaker 4: not to graduate from one of those HBCUs. But Dickens

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Speaker 4: did join Kappa Alpha Psia, historically black fraternity when he

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Speaker 4: went to Tech and was a member of the student government,

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Speaker 4: kind of keeping his dream of being mayor alive. But

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Speaker 4: after graduations, he briefly left the state before returning home

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Speaker 4: in two thousand and two to take care of his

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Speaker 4: ill mother. This is around the time that he started

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Speaker 4: his public service career and he joined NPUD NPUs our

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Speaker 4: Neighborhood Planning Units. Atlanta is broken up into twenty five

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Speaker 4: of these neighborhood units and they're each given a letter

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Speaker 4: of the alphabet. So they are advisory boards that give

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Speaker 4: input to the city, but they can issue like zoning

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Speaker 4: variances and some MPUs have built up like considerable power

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Speaker 4: over their neighborhood. So this is where a lot of

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Speaker 4: people like first plug into Atlanta government.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So it's like, is this like really like the

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Speaker 2: zoning board process?

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Speaker 4: And yeah, if you need to get approval to have

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Speaker 4: a bigger awning than you're supposed to have, you got

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Speaker 4: to go through vmp to get it.

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Speaker 3: Got it?

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Speaker 2: Okay, So I'll consider that for when I want to

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Speaker 2: expand my awning.

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Speaker 4: Yes, you're onning or build your onning Okay, yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: At this point, Dickens and his sister also founded a

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Speaker 4: business called City Living Home Furnishings, and the company is

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Speaker 4: exactly what.

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Speaker 3: It's a It's a furniture store. You found furniture.

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Speaker 4: In an interview with Georgia State University later in his life.

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Speaker 4: Dickens reflected that this is where he determined that he

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Speaker 4: needed to act rightly to ensure his good reputation.

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Speaker 2: What furniture store teach him this lesson?

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Speaker 4: Oh well, he said, Imagine I'm on TV saying trust me,

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Speaker 4: and all the people would have to do is call

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Speaker 4: the Atlanta Journal, Constitution or radio and say your furniture

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Speaker 4: was trash your history to somebody who are all these

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Speaker 4: places that you know, You've really got to be consistent.

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Speaker 4: It's what he said. And you know, it turns out.

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Speaker 5: I have to know.

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Speaker 4: Woh spoiler, he goes bankrupt. It turns out the AGAC

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Speaker 4: wouldn't be much of a problem for Dickens, as we've

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Speaker 4: learned years later, the paper would be on his side,

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Speaker 4: bobbing those easy questions and helping him build support for

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Speaker 4: cop City. So, like I said, the family business failed

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Speaker 4: in twenty ten, you can't actually blame Dickens for it

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Speaker 4: was a product of the of the Great Recession.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So I wonder if we can still find any

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Speaker 2: of his furniture lying around.

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Speaker 4: So there's there's actually a store called City Living Home

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Speaker 4: Furnish Furnishing, And I don't know if it's like.

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Speaker 3: Somebody delayed at or Yeah.

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Speaker 4: I tried to look it up and I couldn't like

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Speaker 4: figure out if it was just somebody using the same

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Speaker 4: name or not. But there's one that exists in like

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Speaker 4: West Midtown.

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Speaker 2: Okay, oh boy, sorry, we're gonna I'm gonna get a

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Speaker 2: lot of comments from people in Atlanta down because you

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Speaker 2: said a West Midtown.

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Speaker 4: West Side or whatever you want to call it.

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Speaker 2: It's it's a Southwest Piedmont. I don't know.

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Speaker 4: There's there's also so no like south of North. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: we have all of these these fun little street or

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Speaker 4: neighborhood names. But so after the failing business, he changed

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Speaker 4: course and went to GSU for a master's of Public

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Speaker 4: Administration in economic Development. So this was after twenty ten, Yeah,

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Speaker 4: after twenty ten. In twenty eleven he started attending his

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Speaker 4: master's program at Georgia State University, and then he graduated

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Speaker 4: in twenty thirteen, just in time for the municipal election season.

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Speaker 4: So Atlanta City Council, as we've learned now, is comprised

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Speaker 4: of twelve district seats and three city wide seats or

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Speaker 4: what we call at large seats, and so Dickens ran

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Speaker 4: for post three against an incumbent named h Lamar Willis.

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Speaker 4: Dickens kind of historically when he has these campaigns, either

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Speaker 4: has really good fortune or good insight in choosing his

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Speaker 4: opponent or opponents. A month prior to the election, Willis

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Speaker 4: was disbarred after the Georgia Supreme Court found that he

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Speaker 4: violated numerous professional conduct rules, including it in two thousand

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Speaker 4: and nine placing a settlement money from a child injury

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Speaker 4: case into his personal bank account instead of giving it

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Speaker 4: to the parents. Wait, really, yes, this guy, this guy

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Speaker 4: is now back in Georgia government. He is he's part.

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Speaker 2: Of like the beltline that that makes.

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Speaker 4: Sense management program. So like this happened earlier this.

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Speaker 3: Year stealing money from injured children.

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Speaker 4: I think he gave it to the child eventually. But

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Speaker 4: you're supposed to put these in like escrow accounts and

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Speaker 4: not in your own account.

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Speaker 3: To your personal account.

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Speaker 6: No, So.

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Speaker 4: Former Mayor Sureley Franklin indoors Dickens in the twenty three race,

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Speaker 4: or former Mayor Surely Franklin indors Dickens in the twenty

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Speaker 4: thirteen race, which drew iron attacks by both Willis, who

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Speaker 4: called Dickens out for his bankruptcy of the furniture business,

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Speaker 4: and what Willis alleged was quote unlawful use of Georgia

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Speaker 4: Tech government property. So on the bankruptcy, Dickens went to

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Speaker 4: about a million dollars in debt and had some taxlinges

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Speaker 4: against him, which he's now discharged through both bankrupts in

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Speaker 4: settling the tax leads. But the unlawful use of Georgia

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Speaker 4: Tech Georgia government property, what is that? I have no idea.

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Speaker 4: I don't know what they I searched pretty hard to

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Speaker 4: try to find it, and I can't. Like other than

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Speaker 4: Will willis making the claim, I found no evidence like.

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Speaker 2: A computers who like what is.

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Speaker 4: I'm assuming like, you know, probably something like he went

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Speaker 4: to a computer lab and used it off hours for

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Speaker 4: some personal, weird business. But yeah, I found nothing that

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Speaker 4: actually really backs up the claim against him. So he

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Speaker 4: won the election in November with fifty three percent of

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Speaker 4: the vote, which is surprisingly strong victory for like a

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Speaker 4: relatively unknown candidate like Dickens was at the time. During

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Speaker 4: his first term twenty thirteen to twenty seventeen, Dickens worked

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Speaker 4: pretty quietly, but towards the end of his term he

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Speaker 4: started to introduce legislation make a name for himself, so

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Speaker 4: he created a forty million dollar affordable housing bond, as

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Speaker 4: well as a study to raise the minimum wage for

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Speaker 4: city employees to fifteen dollars an hour, which ultimately led

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Speaker 4: to the city enacting that wage. Diggins ran for his

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Speaker 4: second term unopposed, so naturally he won.

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Speaker 3: So that's twenty seventeen.

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Speaker 4: Now we're a twenty seventeen to twenty twenty one, and

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Speaker 4: this is where the story starts to get interesting. We'll

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Speaker 4: see the themes that will play out in this first,

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Speaker 4: you know, a couple of years as mayor.

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Speaker 2: Well and we will learn about that story after these

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Speaker 2: messages from our lovely sponsors or if you're subscribed to

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Speaker 2: the new f Well Premium Plows the Cooler Zone media,

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Speaker 2: you just hear us do the ad breaks without the

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Speaker 2: ads at all. So in lieu of that by gold

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Speaker 2: gold play by gold, played played guitars, guitars, Thank you

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Speaker 2: by gold plated guitars.

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Speaker 3: All right, we are back.

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Speaker 2: I'm strumming away on my on my electric gold plated bass.

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Speaker 4: Doesn't sound good. It doesn't sound like it's supposed to.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Daniell cut cut out all of the all of

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Speaker 2: the bad bass. Actually, I can go get my accordion

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Speaker 2: and play that instead.

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Speaker 3: Do you want let's not all right?

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Speaker 4: Well continue, So we're in twenty eighteen now, so in

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Speaker 4: twenty normal year, it completely normal year for Atlanta. Nothing

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Speaker 4: happened anywhere else in the world. One of the biggest

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Speaker 4: conversations that was going around in Atlanta in twenty eighteen

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Speaker 4: revolved around an area of downtown called the Gulch. So,

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Speaker 4: this is the area that's surrounded by most of our

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Speaker 4: sports team venues, kind of like where Centennial Olympic Park is,

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Speaker 4: and the streets are all elevated in that area around

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Speaker 4: above ground level and at the bottom of the ground level,

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Speaker 4: it's like these early twentieth century like railway lines, but

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Speaker 4: it's mostly parking lots for those those to the stadiums

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Speaker 4: for the stadiums. And it's known as the gulch because

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Speaker 4: you know, kind of which is a break in the ground.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it looks it looks it's like a gulch kind of.

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Speaker 3: So back in it's like, ooh wow.

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Speaker 4: Back in twenty twenty twenty twelve, then Mayor cassim Re

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Speaker 4: present in an idea to give a Los Angeles based

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Speaker 4: firm a million dollars to build the Gulch into a

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Speaker 4: mixed use high rise area. The legislation finally passed in

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Speaker 4: twenty eighteen, but Andrea Dickens voted against it, saying correctly

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Speaker 4: that there wasn't enough focus in the development plans on

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Speaker 4: the housing affordability and this helped cement Dickens's reputation as

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Speaker 4: a housing affordability advocate.

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Speaker 2: And yeah, because he also did that forty million dollars.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, he just did that forty million dollars bond. And

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Speaker 4: we'll have some more affordable housing stuff later. But you know,

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Speaker 4: I should say, we're like five years on now and

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Speaker 4: the Gulch hasn't be gone, but they're they're trying to

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Speaker 4: get it done. But before the World Cup comes in.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, they're also it seems like they've been preoccupied with

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Speaker 2: another another construction construction project that's getting much more of

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Speaker 2: the mayor's attention, which oddly does not have anything to

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Speaker 2: do with affordable housing.

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Speaker 4: No, it just not. Dickens also introduced legislation that led

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Speaker 4: to the creation of the Atlanta Department of Transportation, which,

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Speaker 4: if I'm being fair, was a good idea and pretty

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Speaker 4: necessary to help address bennis decaying road infrastructure. Proven no,

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Speaker 4: the roads.

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Speaker 3: You're fine.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, so you drove on you complained when we had

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Speaker 4: this last week of action about Decab Avenue and all

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Speaker 4: of the potholes. Yeah, and that is now repaved. That

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Speaker 4: got repavedy a couple of weeks ago. They're in the

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Speaker 4: process of repaving it.

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Speaker 3: So the infrastructure working.

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Speaker 2: It's my favorite part. My new favorite part is Moreland

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Speaker 2: is that usually around Moreland's Drive there's an area where

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Speaker 2: you're where you're trying to get to the Wanti Forest

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Speaker 2: that just is always constantly flooded no matter what. And

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Speaker 2: that's that's my favorite area of Atlanta.

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Speaker 4: And I hear that if you get rid of a forest,

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Speaker 4: that will improve flood helps it flooding because there's more

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Speaker 4: space for the dirt to soak in water exactly.

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Speaker 3: Yea, that is how that works. It is science.

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Speaker 4: So in twenty nineteen, Dickens introduced legislation to create a

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Speaker 4: task force to decide how to repurpose the Atlanta City

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Speaker 4: Detention Center or a CDC, which is really weird. Every

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Speaker 4: time I hear a CDC, I think of this thing,

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Speaker 4: it's jail, and everybody else is talking about something entirely different.

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Speaker 5: Huh.

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Speaker 4: So it was built in ninety nine. He's leading up

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Speaker 4: to the Olympics, and replaced an older jail that now

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Speaker 4: serves as our primary homeless shelter.

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Speaker 3: So that's what ACDC is now.

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Speaker 4: It's called the Gateway Center. Now that was the old jail.

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Speaker 4: ACDC is the current jail.

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Speaker 3: Okay, Okay.

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Speaker 4: So, in a press release, after Bottom signed this legislation

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Speaker 4: to create the task force.

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Speaker 3: Who's bottom? Who's Bottoms?

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Speaker 4: So from twenty seventeen to twenty twenty one, Atlanta had

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Speaker 4: a mayor name Lance Bottoms, and she was great and

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Speaker 4: did not approve legislation about cop City at all.

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Speaker 3: She did not. She did, she did, she did. So

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Speaker 3: it was a lot. You just lied. I lied.

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Speaker 2: You already purposely spread misinformation on my news podcast.

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Speaker 3: Okay.

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Speaker 4: So Michael Smith was Bottoms press secretary and also currently

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Speaker 4: serving as Dickens press secretary. So he wrote that this

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Speaker 4: legislation that authorized the task force actually authorized Bottoms to

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Speaker 4: close the jail, but the order and it did not

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Speaker 4: create that authorization, only authorized this task force to recommend

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Speaker 4: future uses of the site should it close, And this

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Speaker 4: is going to be important. The task force met for

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Speaker 4: about a year before turning into options which brings us

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Speaker 4: to June twenty twenty. We're going to skip straight over

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Speaker 4: there with all of this going on.

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Speaker 2: So what was happening in June twenty twenty in Atlanta?

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Speaker 4: There were some protests going on, which we're going to

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Speaker 4: key in just after the jail fight. But the task

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Speaker 4: force offered four options, and the city indicated that was

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Speaker 4: going to go with the second cheapest of the four,

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Speaker 4: which was redoing the facade of the jail and turning

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Speaker 4: the interior into a center for diversions. So instead of

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Speaker 4: having a city jail, we would have this multi storied

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Speaker 4: diversion center to stop people from going into the criminal

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Speaker 4: justice system. And in the middle of the summer of

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Speaker 4: twenty twenty.

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Speaker 2: This was how is that not just a jail, it's you.

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Speaker 4: Don't enter the criminal legal system. Yeah, so you don't

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Speaker 4: talk to you're not in front of a judge, you

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Speaker 4: are not techly arrested. You are given resources, and you

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Speaker 4: are given options to you know, attend courses or counseling

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Speaker 4: or whatever you need instead of entering like the criminal

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Speaker 4: justice And so we have a diversion program here called

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Speaker 4: Policing's Alternatives and Diversions or PAD, which operates in every

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Speaker 4: zone of the city, and is is you know, if

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Speaker 4: somebody gets arrested, like stealing basic substance stuff, they are

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Speaker 4: supposed to contact PAD and enter them into a diversion

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Speaker 4: program where they get help instead of going to jail.

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Speaker 3: Okay.

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Speaker 4: And it works to the extent that the city of

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Speaker 4: or it works to the extent that APD actually does

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Speaker 4: contact PAD. And it depends on kind of the zone

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Speaker 4: how effective it is. But basically, at this point everyone

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Speaker 4: agreed that the jail was going to end its time

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Speaker 4: as a carceral space and become this diversion center to

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Speaker 4: help people avoid entering the criminal system. So put it

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Speaker 4: in that that is the plan.

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Speaker 3: Okay. This is during June of twenty twenty.

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Speaker 4: During June of twenty two nation Okay, because of course,

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Speaker 4: the bigger news of the summer of twenty twenty was

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Speaker 4: the George Floyd uprising, and at that point in Atlanta,

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Speaker 4: the killing of Rayshard Brooks by Garrett Rolf at the

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Speaker 4: Wendy's in Southeast Atlanta.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: So after the killing of Brooks, Dickens posted on an

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Speaker 4: Instagram saying, quote, I am saddened to start this day

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Speaker 4: with news of another black person killed by police and

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Speaker 4: especially dismayed to see it happen in our city. Police

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Speaker 4: must de escalate situations like these before they turned deadly.

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Speaker 4: Once the suspect fled, unarmed and intoxicated through a parking

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Speaker 4: lot of bystanders, this could have become an investigation rather

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Speaker 4: than a shooting. So, undoubtedly spurred by the fervor and

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Speaker 4: uproar of that summer, Dickens also co sponsored legislation with

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Speaker 4: fellow council members Antonio Brown and Michael Julian Bond that

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Speaker 4: would prohibit APD from using crowd control munitions in military

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Speaker 4: style vehicles against protesters. Okay, this legislation, though, unsurprisingly, went nowhere,

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Speaker 4: and we were shop by ever balls for you know,

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Speaker 4: the rest of the summer.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and they still are using them.

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Speaker 3: To this day. Yeah.

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Speaker 4: But this is also happening at the tail end of

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Speaker 4: budget season. So our budget season goes from like March

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Speaker 4: to or April to June of every year. And the

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Speaker 4: biggest debate in Council that summer was about withholding seventy

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Speaker 4: three million dollars, or about a quarter of the Atlanta

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Speaker 4: Police Department's funding, and so we were actually positioned police

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Speaker 4: defund the police, and while the legislation was under debate

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Speaker 4: in City Council, thousands of residents called in for public comment.

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Speaker 4: This is the only time that i've the only time

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Speaker 4: estenment I've seen for this public comment was about seventeen

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Speaker 4: hours according to mainline zine, I seem to recall it

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Speaker 4: being longer, but around that, which is around seventeen.

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Speaker 2: Comparable to the last public comment session related to COP city.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and comparable even to the first public comment.

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Speaker 2: Session also seventeen now, yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 4: So the actual vot happened on the a's especially called

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Speaker 4: Saturday session of City Council. At the time, like all

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Speaker 4: other municipalities, Council was meeting remotely through zoom. So the

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Speaker 4: actual vote happened on a especially called Saturday session of

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Speaker 4: City Council at the time, like all of the municipalities,

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Speaker 4: Council was meeting remotely through zoom because of COVID. And

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Speaker 4: we're going to play a clip of one of the

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Speaker 4: few things that Dickens said during that debate and to

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Speaker 4: set the scene. Council Member Dustin hillis one of the

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Speaker 4: very pro COP members of council, proposed a much smaller

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Speaker 4: cut to the budget in the amount of like a

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Speaker 4: few million dollars to remove just quote unquote non essential

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Speaker 4: expenditures from abd's budget, sure without risking cutting into actual

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Speaker 4: pay for police or the raises to police stalary that

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Speaker 4: Council and the Mayor's office previously promised. Because this was

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Speaker 4: a special session on Saturday, Dickens was driving around his mother,

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Speaker 4: so there's going to be a bit of background noise

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Speaker 4: and the quality is not super outstanding, and it has now.

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Speaker 7: As much as I'm trying to figure out a way

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Speaker 7: to support it, if did come down to being two

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Speaker 7: million dollars or three million dollars or each five million dollars,

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Speaker 7: it just is so sort of reimagining. You can't reimagine

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Speaker 7: something that's almost three hundred million and only take to

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Speaker 7: the bombing and to reimagine it right and to kind

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Speaker 7: of think through what all needs to be done at

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Speaker 7: it send a strong signal that we want reform and

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Speaker 7: we want change.

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Speaker 4: What we hear in this clip is Dickens really doing

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Speaker 4: what he's going to continue to do for the rest

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Speaker 4: of his career. Make overtures to the public while still

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Speaker 4: ensuring that at the end of the day, the police

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Speaker 4: are taken care of He really wanted APD to know

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Speaker 4: that their personal salaries were not only safe, but they

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Speaker 4: were going to grow, and he would always be a

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Speaker 4: champion of that. So we're going to skip here over

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Speaker 4: at the Copsity vote in twenty twenty one. At this point,

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Speaker 4: I think it's been If.

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Speaker 2: You're listening to this show, you're also probably somewhat from there.

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Speaker 4: There are several episodes that you can pause here and

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Speaker 4: go back and listen to it to kind of catch

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Speaker 4: up yes on on how that happened in twenty twenty one.

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Speaker 4: So suffice it to say that Dickens did not fight

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Speaker 4: against the legislation in its council phase and what was

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Speaker 4: one of the ten votes to approve the Cops City

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Speaker 4: lease in September of twenty twenty one. If anything, Dickens

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Speaker 4: was one of the quieter members of council when it

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Speaker 4: came to debating Cops City lease. He didn't really say

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Speaker 4: much while the debates were happening. So the last few months,

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Speaker 4: of course, of the Cops City fight happened during election season,

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Speaker 4: and instead of running for a third term as council member,

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Speaker 4: Dickens threw his hat in the ring for mayor which

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Speaker 4: was an open race, with Mayor Bottoms withdrawing her candid seat.

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Speaker 4: All the way back on May six a mid rumors

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Speaker 4: that she was on the short list to be Biden's

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Speaker 4: nod for VP.

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Speaker 3: Which did which did not happen, which did not happen.

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Speaker 4: So to understand how Dickens won this election, because spoiler,

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Speaker 4: we're talking about.

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Speaker 2: Dickensity mayor Monday Mayor Dickens, We've got to talk about

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Speaker 2: how Atlanta runs its municipal elections and how or election

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Speaker 2: law plays out in effect, and who the presumed front

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Speaker 2: runners of the race were.

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Speaker 4: First, municipal elections are run on a non partisan basis.

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Speaker 4: There are no party primaries to eat out weaker candidates

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Speaker 4: to run. All you need to do is get the

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Speaker 4: required number of signatures, pay the fee, and file on time.

442
00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:18,240
Speaker 4: So this leads to a pretty wide field of candidates

443
00:22:18,240 --> 00:22:21,960
Speaker 4: than you see in most elections. Second is that quirk

444
00:22:22,040 --> 00:22:25,479
Speaker 4: in Georgia election law that everyone is probably familiar with

445
00:22:25,760 --> 00:22:27,920
Speaker 4: by this point in time from the last few national

446
00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:31,720
Speaker 4: election cycles. In order to win Georgia outright, you need

447
00:22:31,800 --> 00:22:35,560
Speaker 4: fifty percent of the vote plus one. If no candidate

448
00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:37,600
Speaker 4: hits that number, then the top two candidates go to

449
00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:40,640
Speaker 4: a runoff election. The state law also applies to any

450
00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:43,760
Speaker 4: municipal elections for cities with the population higher than one

451
00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:45,719
Speaker 4: hundred thousand people, like Atlanta.

452
00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:48,240
Speaker 3: Look Atlanta, which has six hundred thousand.

453
00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:50,240
Speaker 4: So just around five hundred thousand, I think it's like

454
00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:52,679
Speaker 4: four hundred and ninety thousand at this point. But the

455
00:22:52,760 --> 00:22:55,800
Speaker 4: greater metro areas, like the greater Metro area is something

456
00:22:55,840 --> 00:22:57,040
Speaker 4: like six or seven million.

457
00:22:57,200 --> 00:22:58,360
Speaker 3: Yeah.

458
00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:01,199
Speaker 4: So the two front runners of the race were not

459
00:23:01,320 --> 00:23:04,040
Speaker 4: exactly popular figures. I would go so far as to

460
00:23:04,040 --> 00:23:06,600
Speaker 4: say it like in many cases votes were cast against them,

461
00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:10,000
Speaker 4: like kind of like with Trump, instead of in support of.

462
00:23:10,040 --> 00:23:13,000
Speaker 3: Instead of voting for Biden, you're voting against Trump. Yeah.

463
00:23:13,119 --> 00:23:16,600
Speaker 4: So former Mayor Cassim Reid was one of those candidates.

464
00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:19,200
Speaker 4: He left office in twenty seventeen after a second term.

465
00:23:19,760 --> 00:23:22,160
Speaker 4: And then it has this two consecutive term limit, which

466
00:23:22,280 --> 00:23:24,720
Speaker 4: Reid had reached. However, you can run for a third

467
00:23:24,760 --> 00:23:28,080
Speaker 4: term if it's not consecutive. Okay, So during Reid's second term,

468
00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:32,040
Speaker 4: lawsuits and scandaled propagated heavily. Amongst the things that came

469
00:23:32,080 --> 00:23:35,159
Speaker 4: out during both during and after Reed's administration was that

470
00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:38,520
Speaker 4: Reid made nearly nine hundred thousand dollars in illegal bonus

471
00:23:38,520 --> 00:23:41,200
Speaker 4: payments to staff, had a bribery scandal in his office

472
00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:44,720
Speaker 4: that resulted in an FBI investigation, and ensured that airport

473
00:23:44,760 --> 00:23:49,400
Speaker 4: contracts went to his friends and associates based a legalist,

474
00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:53,440
Speaker 4: a legalist vator and to make matters worse for Reid,

475
00:23:53,520 --> 00:23:56,400
Speaker 4: a month after he announced his candid seat, the AJAC

476
00:23:56,600 --> 00:24:00,840
Speaker 4: release that it believed Reid was under investigation for allegations

477
00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:03,840
Speaker 4: of wire fraud for quote using campaign funds to make

478
00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:07,360
Speaker 4: purchases of jewelry, resort travel, lingerie, and furniture.

479
00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:09,639
Speaker 2: I mean that would make sense considering everything else you

480
00:24:09,760 --> 00:24:12,240
Speaker 2: just said. That's not really surprising.

481
00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:16,520
Speaker 4: Then on the other side was Fleesha Moore, who accurately

482
00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:19,240
Speaker 4: and not was seen by opponents as the face of

483
00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:23,000
Speaker 4: COPSDY after Joyce Shepherd, who introduced the legislation authorizing the

484
00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:26,600
Speaker 4: lease for COPSDY and lost her seat on council for

485
00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:29,800
Speaker 4: that reason. While never forced to do so since city

486
00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:32,720
Speaker 4: council presidents only vote in tiebreakers, More did say that

487
00:24:32,760 --> 00:24:37,720
Speaker 4: she would vote in favor of Copsidity if it was needed. Then,

488
00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:41,000
Speaker 4: a week before the election, Felicia Moore's campaign Instagram account

489
00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:44,760
Speaker 4: posted a video with Lee Clevinger, a white Republican donor

490
00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:48,639
Speaker 4: and supporter of Moore's campaign. Clevinger can be heard saying

491
00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:52,639
Speaker 4: all of Atlanta mayor since nineteen seventy nine were quote

492
00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:57,320
Speaker 4: not interested in anything except lining their own pockets. I

493
00:24:57,359 --> 00:25:00,399
Speaker 4: should know. I feel like this could give me some

494
00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:04,679
Speaker 4: uh since nineteen seventy four, a black person has been

495
00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:05,720
Speaker 4: there every single time.

496
00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:06,000
Speaker 5: Yeah.

497
00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:08,399
Speaker 2: That Yeah, that's that's what I was thinking. Yeah, So

498
00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:11,920
Speaker 2: that sounds like he's just didn't go racist over so well.

499
00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:12,960
Speaker 3: Yeah.

500
00:25:13,119 --> 00:25:16,200
Speaker 4: More removed the post and return the campaign contribution from

501
00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:19,480
Speaker 4: Clevelander and said later, quote, it was an unfortunate statement

502
00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:22,040
Speaker 4: by that constituent, and I should have corrected him or

503
00:25:22,119 --> 00:25:22,680
Speaker 4: walked away.

504
00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:26,680
Speaker 2: Unfortunate statement not just like fortunate if someone saying something

505
00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:30,320
Speaker 2: incredibly racist. So this was the setting that led to

506
00:25:30,359 --> 00:25:34,000
Speaker 2: election night that Tuesday. To everyone's surprise, Dickens eked out

507
00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:37,840
Speaker 2: a second place victory above Read with just under six

508
00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:41,000
Speaker 2: hundred votes for a total of twenty two thousand, one

509
00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:43,399
Speaker 2: hundred and fifty three votes for Dickens. More had a

510
00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:45,960
Speaker 2: much better showing with thirty nine two hundred and two.

511
00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:48,280
Speaker 4: But neither of them was over fifty, but neither of

512
00:25:48,320 --> 00:25:51,000
Speaker 4: them broke the fifty percent, so we went to a runoff.

513
00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:55,440
Speaker 4: So during the runoff, More really courted conservative Buckhead.

514
00:25:55,280 --> 00:25:59,840
Speaker 2: And Buckheads like the northern more conservative like not suburb,

515
00:25:59,840 --> 00:26:01,600
Speaker 2: but neighborhood of Atlanta, neighborhood.

516
00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:03,760
Speaker 4: It's the one that wanted to turn it into its

517
00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:04,320
Speaker 4: own city.

518
00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:06,600
Speaker 2: Yes, which wanted to do to the kids succession, which

519
00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:08,639
Speaker 2: is built on a whole bunch of legacies of red

520
00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:10,120
Speaker 2: landing in segregation and blah blah blah.

521
00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:13,520
Speaker 3: Oh we'll talk about that. Okay.

522
00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:17,480
Speaker 4: So More also earned the endorsement of Reed, the.

523
00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:18,560
Speaker 3: Guy who just said the racist thing.

524
00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:22,800
Speaker 4: Guy who know, the former mayor who lost to Dickens

525
00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:24,600
Speaker 4: for second place by about six hundred votes.

526
00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:26,959
Speaker 2: Okay, So I'm trying to keep all these names straight

527
00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:29,800
Speaker 2: here because there's a lot a lot of names coming

528
00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:30,640
Speaker 2: into my head now.

529
00:26:31,760 --> 00:26:34,399
Speaker 4: In a situation that led many progressives in Advantage to

530
00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:36,400
Speaker 4: look at the guy who, well, he voted for copstate,

531
00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:38,600
Speaker 4: he still supported closing the jail, was willing to cut

532
00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:41,080
Speaker 4: seventy three million dollars from APD, and had a been

533
00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:45,320
Speaker 4: a pretty consistent advocate for affordable housing on cancel on council.

534
00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:48,959
Speaker 4: So it was between More and that guy. Yeah, so

535
00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:54,240
Speaker 4: Progressives made a decision and went for Dickens in the runoff.

536
00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:57,320
Speaker 4: Dickens won by a landside with sixty three percent of

537
00:26:57,320 --> 00:27:02,639
Speaker 4: the votes ok so and fifty five votes. More actually

538
00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:06,920
Speaker 4: lost thirteen thousand votes from her general election total. Interesting,

539
00:27:07,320 --> 00:27:11,480
Speaker 4: Thus Mayor Andre Dickens becomes our next leader. Turnout for

540
00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:13,480
Speaker 4: the runoff was in line with what we saw four

541
00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:16,520
Speaker 4: years earlier when Keisha lance Bottom faced off against Garrison's

542
00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:18,040
Speaker 4: candidate of choice, Mary Norwood.

543
00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:22,000
Speaker 3: Get wait, don't put what do you mean.

544
00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:27,119
Speaker 4: If she runs for Merrigan right now? I misunderstood everything

545
00:27:27,119 --> 00:27:27,679
Speaker 4: that has happened.

546
00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:32,679
Speaker 3: She's a scary woman. I'm not gonna so the Norway.

547
00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:35,960
Speaker 4: The Bottoms run off only had four thousand more voters

548
00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:37,600
Speaker 4: than we did in twenty twenty one's run off.

549
00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:40,560
Speaker 2: So that was the twenty seventeen election. Twenty eighteen elections

550
00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:46,359
Speaker 2: got okay, No, the Mayor Norwood, that was the twenty

551
00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:49,960
Speaker 2: Bottoms one. I'm gonna act like I know Atlanta history

552
00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:53,080
Speaker 2: at us correct you on some of this Atlanta history

553
00:27:53,119 --> 00:27:56,600
Speaker 2: here as I feign ignorance to have you explained concepts

554
00:27:56,640 --> 00:27:58,840
Speaker 2: for the audience, making me sound more ignorant than I am,

555
00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:00,919
Speaker 2: but actually then explained to you and.

556
00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:05,560
Speaker 4: I continue, Sorry, we should say that twenty seventeen runoff

557
00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:07,959
Speaker 4: was actually much more evenly matched. Bottoms only one by

558
00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:08,800
Speaker 4: eight hundred votes.

559
00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:11,280
Speaker 2: So would that and that's scary. Yeah, that's scary because

560
00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:13,280
Speaker 2: Mary Norwood cannot be the mayor.

561
00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:18,640
Speaker 4: So Dickens. It's Dickens has said that he won with

562
00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:21,280
Speaker 4: you know, consent to govern, and it's not really stretching

563
00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:23,600
Speaker 4: it when he says that Atlanta has supported him in

564
00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:27,360
Speaker 4: this particular election. Yeah, this particular opponent, we largely did.

565
00:28:27,560 --> 00:28:27,879
Speaker 3: Sure.

566
00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:30,600
Speaker 4: In the interim period, Dickens does the usual things. He

567
00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:34,200
Speaker 4: appoints a transition seam. This included your usual cast of characters,

568
00:28:34,240 --> 00:28:37,959
Speaker 4: but it is also worth noting that it included Dave Wilkinson,

569
00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:41,080
Speaker 4: president and CEO of the ADVANTA Police Found Police.

570
00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:44,400
Speaker 2: I've heard of them, the Atlanta Police Foundation. That's like

571
00:28:44,440 --> 00:28:46,600
Speaker 2: a it's like a it's like a it's like a

572
00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:48,080
Speaker 2: charity for police or something.

573
00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:48,320
Speaker 3: Right.

574
00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:51,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's a nonprofit, you know, your standard nonprofit. Okay,

575
00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:53,920
Speaker 4: they do cool thing tax deductible tax Yet you can

576
00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:57,080
Speaker 4: donate to them tax deductibly just like they.

577
00:28:56,760 --> 00:28:59,000
Speaker 2: Might advertise, just like the stream or does today.

578
00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:05,520
Speaker 4: That's the second destiny of reference as many episodes. So

579
00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:07,560
Speaker 4: as soon as Dickens is sworn in, he faces the

580
00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:11,280
Speaker 4: Buckhead secession crisis. And you know, we explained a little

581
00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:14,520
Speaker 4: bit earlier what Bucket is, but Atlanta is a very

582
00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:18,240
Speaker 4: large metropolitan area, and much of the Fulton County itself

583
00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:21,360
Speaker 4: was at one point part of unincorporated Atlanta, and then

584
00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:23,960
Speaker 4: in two thousand and five, an unincorporated area just to

585
00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:26,400
Speaker 4: the north of Buckhead called Sandy Springs was the first

586
00:29:26,440 --> 00:29:29,440
Speaker 4: to become its own city. The initial breakaway cities that

587
00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:33,520
Speaker 4: happened after that were predominantly white, and racism played a

588
00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:36,080
Speaker 4: heavy role in their formation, But starting in twenty sixteen,

589
00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:40,120
Speaker 4: newly formed black majority cities also started cropping up around

590
00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:43,240
Speaker 4: the metro area, like the city of South Bolton and Stonecrest.

591
00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:45,480
Speaker 3: So Buckhead wanted to.

592
00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:47,280
Speaker 4: Do the same thing. They wanted to become their own city.

593
00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:52,680
Speaker 4: And by no means was that like popular sentiment in Buckhead.

594
00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:58,280
Speaker 4: But it's more complicated because the city hood drives were

595
00:29:58,360 --> 00:30:01,320
Speaker 4: not like part of incorporated Atlanta the previous ones. Buckett

596
00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:04,959
Speaker 4: is Incorporated Atlanta is Atlanta. It's part of the Atlanta

597
00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:07,800
Speaker 4: Public School system. It's also an APD zone. It has

598
00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:10,080
Speaker 4: its own parks, roadways, and water system that are all

599
00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:11,400
Speaker 4: like City of Atlantic property.

600
00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:11,720
Speaker 3: Yep.

601
00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:15,440
Speaker 4: So to have the best chance of actually seceding, Buckhead

602
00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:18,280
Speaker 4: needs a state congressional vote. Otherwise it would require a

603
00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:21,840
Speaker 4: city wide vote, which it would buy with people. Yeah yeah,

604
00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:24,400
Speaker 4: So in twenty twenty two, it found that Bucket secession

605
00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:27,120
Speaker 4: bill started working its way through the legislature. The bill

606
00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:29,920
Speaker 4: didn't make it very far this first time around. It

607
00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:32,400
Speaker 4: dies on February eleventh, so just a couple of weeks

608
00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:35,520
Speaker 4: into the session. But in order to kill it, Dickens

609
00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:38,280
Speaker 4: reached out to Governor Kemp and other Republican leaders and

610
00:30:38,320 --> 00:30:41,360
Speaker 4: developed a working relationship. Early on in his term as mayor,

611
00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:47,720
Speaker 4: Dickens also kind of to quell this Buckhead secession played

612
00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:51,239
Speaker 4: into the race of crime narrative that Bucket secessionists were

613
00:30:51,280 --> 00:30:55,320
Speaker 4: claiming was the reason that they wanted to seceed. Dickens,

614
00:30:55,320 --> 00:30:58,520
Speaker 4: in partnership with local law enforcement agencies and the Atlanta

615
00:30:58,520 --> 00:31:02,400
Speaker 4: Police Foundation, created the Pete Offender Tracking Unit. They claimed

616
00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:04,800
Speaker 4: most of the crime problem in Atlanta comes from repeat

617
00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:08,600
Speaker 4: offenders and by sharing information about so called criminals between agencies,

618
00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:11,920
Speaker 4: crime would drop. Of course, this is very problematic from

619
00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:15,240
Speaker 4: an abolitionist perspective. When someone enters the criminal legal system,

620
00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:18,320
Speaker 4: there is a criminal right. It haunts you. The task

621
00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:21,560
Speaker 4: force only serves to reinforce that. And in response to

622
00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:23,760
Speaker 4: the formation of the units, Southern Center for Human Rights

623
00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:26,720
Speaker 4: said quote, If APD is planning to double down on

624
00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:30,760
Speaker 4: the very strategies that they themselves admitted do not work

625
00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:33,840
Speaker 4: in pursuit of a solution that keeps people behind bars,

626
00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:37,280
Speaker 4: the effort is doomed to fail. You know else is

627
00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:37,920
Speaker 4: doomed to fail.

628
00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:43,480
Speaker 2: Our audience is actually buying these products that are advertising

629
00:31:43,520 --> 00:31:46,720
Speaker 2: on our show for some reason, probably, but who knows.

630
00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:49,080
Speaker 2: I've I've heard, I've heard the I've heard the blue apron.

631
00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:51,480
Speaker 2: The cooking boxes are really convenient if you live an

632
00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:54,920
Speaker 2: active and busy lifestyle. Like Matt from from the Atlantic

633
00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:56,440
Speaker 2: Community Breast Collective.

634
00:31:56,320 --> 00:31:59,400
Speaker 4: I actually use Hello Fresh Okay good, because I think

635
00:31:59,400 --> 00:31:59,640
Speaker 4: they're the.

636
00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:01,200
Speaker 2: Ones that I she were advertising on our show. So

637
00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:03,240
Speaker 2: thank you, thank you for that great, great work. You

638
00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:06,720
Speaker 2: already got it all right. We are back.

639
00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:09,760
Speaker 4: All right, So kicking back in with the buckhead session movement.

640
00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:13,080
Speaker 4: In order to mollify Buckhead, there was also an opening

641
00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:16,680
Speaker 4: of a police precinct in Zone two, in which Buckhead sits.

642
00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:19,480
Speaker 4: This is the third precinct in Buckhead, which is made

643
00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:21,480
Speaker 4: up of just twenty eight square miles.

644
00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:24,120
Speaker 2: That's wild because like Portland only has like three or

645
00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:25,600
Speaker 2: four precincts in total.

646
00:32:26,840 --> 00:32:27,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, so we have six.

647
00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:30,600
Speaker 2: Jortland has like more people in like Portland proper than

648
00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:31,240
Speaker 2: like Atlanta.

649
00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:34,120
Speaker 4: Does I think our territory is more expansive, Yeah, than

650
00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:38,920
Speaker 4: like first population wise, there's actually more people in Portland proper.

651
00:32:39,720 --> 00:32:40,640
Speaker 3: Just pretty funny.

652
00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:44,200
Speaker 4: I should say that the third precinct in Zone two

653
00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:48,000
Speaker 4: was planned before Dickens took office, but he made sure

654
00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:49,840
Speaker 4: to talk about it a lot earlier. Yeah I bet

655
00:32:49,840 --> 00:32:53,120
Speaker 4: I bet so. And then, in what would fit perfectly

656
00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:55,239
Speaker 4: as a scene in The Wire, Dickens spent both this

657
00:32:55,360 --> 00:32:57,680
Speaker 4: year and last year talking about how crime and Buckhead

658
00:32:57,760 --> 00:33:00,400
Speaker 4: dropped more in both years than any other zones.

659
00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:01,080
Speaker 3: What's the Wire?

660
00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:04,560
Speaker 4: But well there's a podcast about the Wire?

661
00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:07,320
Speaker 3: Oh really a podcast? Yes, huh?

662
00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:09,800
Speaker 4: I forget the name of What's the Wire. It's a

663
00:33:09,840 --> 00:33:12,400
Speaker 4: it's a TV show about Oh police?

664
00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:14,840
Speaker 2: Is is this one of like those like a millennial show.

665
00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:15,560
Speaker 4: We're doing a bit.

666
00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:19,760
Speaker 2: Is this like one of those millennial shows? It did

667
00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:22,120
Speaker 2: come out in the early so this is this is

668
00:33:22,120 --> 00:33:23,400
Speaker 2: like succession for old people.

669
00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:26,720
Speaker 4: Got a secession for old people? Yes, I highly recommend

670
00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:28,920
Speaker 4: watching it and check out the podcast that I can't

671
00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:29,560
Speaker 4: remember the name of.

672
00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:33,480
Speaker 3: Okay, yeah, plug someone else's podcast. Great, great job.

673
00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:37,320
Speaker 4: As the Buckhead secession issue wound down, a Southeast Atlanta

674
00:33:37,360 --> 00:33:40,280
Speaker 4: apartment complex started to draw increasing attention from the press

675
00:33:40,360 --> 00:33:42,959
Speaker 4: due to rampant issues in the complex a lack of

676
00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:46,480
Speaker 4: care by the owners. This so this massive apartment complex

677
00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:50,320
Speaker 4: operator called Millennia. The company had a reputation across the

678
00:33:50,360 --> 00:33:54,080
Speaker 4: country is terrible and it is deservedly so. At Forest Cove,

679
00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:57,160
Speaker 4: the complex was unfit for human habitation.

680
00:33:57,400 --> 00:33:58,640
Speaker 3: Oh really Uh?

681
00:33:58,760 --> 00:34:01,360
Speaker 4: And we have to acknowledge that dickens here hadden out

682
00:34:01,400 --> 00:34:03,760
Speaker 4: just to blame Millennia. But in February he told the

683
00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:07,080
Speaker 4: approximately seven hundred residents that the city would be moving

684
00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:09,560
Speaker 4: them to safer housing while the complex was either fixed

685
00:34:09,640 --> 00:34:13,960
Speaker 4: or rebuilt. The rollout of this wasn't perfect. On April

686
00:34:14,040 --> 00:34:17,040
Speaker 4: thirteenth of this year, Sean Keenan, a local reporter.

687
00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:20,480
Speaker 2: Really of the friend of the show, New York Times

688
00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:22,440
Speaker 2: repporter Sean Keenan makes another appearance.

689
00:34:22,920 --> 00:34:25,680
Speaker 4: So Keenan released a new story eight of this year

690
00:34:25,719 --> 00:34:29,520
Speaker 4: April thirteen, twenty twenty three, showing that the first that

691
00:34:29,680 --> 00:34:33,040
Speaker 4: a quarter of Forest Cove residents were relocated to complexes

692
00:34:33,080 --> 00:34:38,000
Speaker 4: identified as dangerous dwellings on the ajac's residential watchdoglyphs.

693
00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:38,880
Speaker 3: That's pretty funny.

694
00:34:39,040 --> 00:34:41,560
Speaker 2: So I have learned a little bit about Atlanta's like

695
00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:45,560
Speaker 2: rental situation here, and it seems like it kind of

696
00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:48,239
Speaker 2: sucks to be a renter in Georgia. It seems like

697
00:34:48,239 --> 00:34:50,080
Speaker 2: you have almost no rights, no protection.

698
00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:53,399
Speaker 4: I didn't have air conditioning for a little while, and

699
00:34:53,560 --> 00:34:56,640
Speaker 4: it turns out that you are not guaranteed air conditioning

700
00:34:57,400 --> 00:34:58,400
Speaker 4: in any real.

701
00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:00,640
Speaker 2: Which is hard being like in Atlanta. Like I never

702
00:35:00,760 --> 00:35:03,920
Speaker 2: I never had a c in Portland. But that's that's Portland.

703
00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:06,080
Speaker 2: It's not We're not dealing with the Atlanta humidity in

704
00:35:06,120 --> 00:35:07,120
Speaker 2: Atlanta heat.

705
00:35:07,040 --> 00:35:09,480
Speaker 4: No, it's it's pretty miserable. Thankfully, my air conditioning did

706
00:35:09,560 --> 00:35:12,640
Speaker 4: get fixed eventually, but yeah, there's no recourse for things

707
00:35:12,680 --> 00:35:19,719
Speaker 4: like that. So until that report by Keenan, it it

708
00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:22,160
Speaker 4: appeared that the city was doing diligent work taking care

709
00:35:22,160 --> 00:35:25,160
Speaker 4: of displaced residents and ensuring that they retained access to

710
00:35:25,200 --> 00:35:28,279
Speaker 4: care and services with as little disruption as possible, and

711
00:35:29,120 --> 00:35:31,279
Speaker 4: by and large that that happened, but you know, for

712
00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:34,040
Speaker 4: a quarter of residents, not so much. At this point,

713
00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:36,680
Speaker 4: more questions are cropping up, so the story is likely

714
00:35:36,719 --> 00:35:39,840
Speaker 4: going to continue to develop, but we don't really know

715
00:35:39,880 --> 00:35:41,839
Speaker 4: where the point going to go because this is like

716
00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:42,520
Speaker 4: current events.

717
00:35:42,600 --> 00:35:42,920
Speaker 3: Yeah.

718
00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:45,239
Speaker 4: Yeah, So another force cove issue that will probably come

719
00:35:45,320 --> 00:35:47,600
Speaker 4: up later in Diggins's term was that he made a

720
00:35:47,600 --> 00:35:50,200
Speaker 4: promise to residence that they'll be able to return to

721
00:35:50,239 --> 00:35:53,920
Speaker 4: the apartment complex eventually. But Millennia was denied hot assistance

722
00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:56,160
Speaker 4: to fix the property, and it's unlikely that they'll do

723
00:35:56,280 --> 00:35:58,120
Speaker 4: so on their own, so the fate of the complex

724
00:35:58,280 --> 00:36:01,640
Speaker 4: is pretty up in the air. The city does own

725
00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:05,160
Speaker 4: approximately eighty acres in the neighborhood, which could and should

726
00:36:05,239 --> 00:36:08,120
Speaker 4: go to building low income housing, but it's prime real

727
00:36:08,239 --> 00:36:12,160
Speaker 4: estate for further gentrification. So yeah, we'll see how that

728
00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:12,719
Speaker 4: plays out.

729
00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:12,840
Speaker 5: No.

730
00:36:12,920 --> 00:36:15,520
Speaker 2: One of the first things like that I noticed when

731
00:36:15,520 --> 00:36:18,360
Speaker 2: I was visiting Atlanta like last year was that like

732
00:36:18,400 --> 00:36:20,200
Speaker 2: all of like most of the Section eight housing has

733
00:36:20,239 --> 00:36:22,719
Speaker 2: been the converted into like luxury condos or like new

734
00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:28,279
Speaker 2: like like a like a five story apartment complexes, and no,

735
00:36:28,480 --> 00:36:32,279
Speaker 2: like the speed of the gentrification was was kind of

736
00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:35,600
Speaker 2: surprising to me coming coming from Portland. Like there's still

737
00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:39,680
Speaker 2: gentrification in Portland, absolutely, but did the expansiveness of it

738
00:36:39,719 --> 00:36:42,359
Speaker 2: here and the speed of which it's accelerating was was

739
00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:43,080
Speaker 2: surprising to me.

740
00:36:43,160 --> 00:36:46,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, and we're not building like low income housing complexes.

741
00:36:46,040 --> 00:36:48,920
Speaker 4: But what's happening here is that they're they're adding a

742
00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:53,960
Speaker 4: certain percentage of new like if you're building a massive complex,

743
00:36:54,080 --> 00:36:58,680
Speaker 4: a certain percentage of your off like your dwellings have

744
00:36:58,760 --> 00:37:01,520
Speaker 4: to go at at a certain point of the average

745
00:37:01,520 --> 00:37:05,360
Speaker 4: monthly income. Yeah, but that's not really addressing this like

746
00:37:05,520 --> 00:37:07,880
Speaker 4: large scale issue that is going because you still.

747
00:37:07,719 --> 00:37:09,880
Speaker 2: Have hundreds of them that it costs like three thousand

748
00:37:09,960 --> 00:37:12,600
Speaker 2: dollars and you have like a dozen that are low income,

749
00:37:12,640 --> 00:37:15,040
Speaker 2: and you just you do the barest amounts to script

750
00:37:15,080 --> 00:37:17,520
Speaker 2: by while still filling up most of the available real

751
00:37:17,640 --> 00:37:19,360
Speaker 2: estate with very expensive apartments.

752
00:37:19,360 --> 00:37:21,399
Speaker 4: And I should plug here. There is a fantastic book

753
00:37:21,480 --> 00:37:25,200
Speaker 4: called Red Hot City by GSU professor named Dan Immerglock.

754
00:37:25,239 --> 00:37:28,360
Speaker 4: If you want to learn more about gentrification in Atlanta.

755
00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:33,160
Speaker 4: It's great, Yeah, absolutely and set vital reading. So towards

756
00:37:33,239 --> 00:37:35,360
Speaker 4: the end of Dickens's first one hundred days in office,

757
00:37:35,640 --> 00:37:38,880
Speaker 4: APD Chief Rodney Bryant announced that he was going to retire.

758
00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:42,600
Speaker 4: Bryant was not very well liked by city leadership. Felicia

759
00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:44,480
Speaker 4: Moore had made a campaign promise to get rid of

760
00:37:44,480 --> 00:37:46,640
Speaker 4: Bryant on her first day in office, but Dickens said

761
00:37:46,640 --> 00:37:49,120
Speaker 4: he'd give him one hundred days to improve public safety

762
00:37:49,160 --> 00:37:51,480
Speaker 4: and kind of see where things were at before firing him.

763
00:37:51,480 --> 00:37:53,320
Speaker 2: And what happened after those one hundred days.

764
00:37:53,840 --> 00:37:57,400
Speaker 4: Bryant stepped down and Dickens tapped then Deputy Chief Darren

765
00:37:57,440 --> 00:37:58,840
Speaker 4: Sheerbaum as interim.

766
00:37:58,920 --> 00:38:00,719
Speaker 3: Replace heard of this guy before.

767
00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:03,080
Speaker 2: This is the guy who made that weird confession about

768
00:38:03,080 --> 00:38:05,239
Speaker 2: having sex in the woods with all those police officers.

769
00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:08,600
Speaker 2: I've heard that in a podcast recently. That's so crazy.

770
00:38:09,680 --> 00:38:12,960
Speaker 4: Cherbom, who may or may not have said those things.

771
00:38:12,960 --> 00:38:16,400
Speaker 4: His prior role was overseeing the cop city development, and

772
00:38:16,480 --> 00:38:18,759
Speaker 4: he was also pretty well liked by APD officers, so

773
00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:21,960
Speaker 4: Dicks officially hired him in October of twenty twenty two.

774
00:38:22,040 --> 00:38:24,399
Speaker 4: But if you're a leftist or even just against cop City.

775
00:38:24,440 --> 00:38:26,759
Speaker 4: This is actually like kind of a lost Cheerbomb is

776
00:38:26,800 --> 00:38:29,920
Speaker 4: incredibly pr savvy, as you saw in that City Council meeting,

777
00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:32,359
Speaker 4: and he does pretty well when he's talking to them.

778
00:38:32,400 --> 00:38:34,200
Speaker 2: No, when I was first doing stuff on cop C,

779
00:38:34,440 --> 00:38:36,759
Speaker 2: I remember when he was just like the spokesperson for

780
00:38:36,920 --> 00:38:38,960
Speaker 2: he wasn't actually like the chief yet.

781
00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:41,799
Speaker 3: And then he became the chief in.

782
00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:46,440
Speaker 2: Like last fall, and they've gotten better at their propaganda

783
00:38:46,440 --> 00:38:47,640
Speaker 2: since then, a lot better.

784
00:38:47,719 --> 00:38:49,319
Speaker 4: Yeah, and you know I watched this like every week.

785
00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:50,920
Speaker 4: He does a pretty good job.

786
00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:51,480
Speaker 3: Yeah.

787
00:38:51,520 --> 00:38:54,400
Speaker 4: This brings us to budget season twenty twenty two. In April,

788
00:38:54,440 --> 00:38:56,600
Speaker 4: Dickens tells the AGC that he wants to hire two

789
00:38:56,680 --> 00:38:59,400
Speaker 4: hundred and fifty APD officers a year for three years,

790
00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:01,640
Speaker 4: hoping that the total of seven hundred and fifty new

791
00:39:01,680 --> 00:39:04,480
Speaker 4: hires will net a four hundred and fifty increase in

792
00:39:04,560 --> 00:39:05,720
Speaker 4: officers for the department.

793
00:39:05,760 --> 00:39:08,319
Speaker 2: Okay, so hiring a lot some of them might nutrition rate,

794
00:39:08,400 --> 00:39:10,640
Speaker 2: other people might not stay on, but you're trying to

795
00:39:10,760 --> 00:39:13,400
Speaker 2: like net to get another like four hundred or so officers.

796
00:39:13,520 --> 00:39:13,759
Speaker 1: Yep.

797
00:39:14,520 --> 00:39:17,560
Speaker 4: So, Dickens also approved four thousand dollars bonuses for APD

798
00:39:18,040 --> 00:39:20,799
Speaker 4: paid using American Rescue Plan Act money.

799
00:39:20,719 --> 00:39:22,840
Speaker 3: And great useful.

800
00:39:23,560 --> 00:39:26,480
Speaker 4: Initially, in June, Dickens promised police a raise of three

801
00:39:26,480 --> 00:39:29,760
Speaker 4: and a half percent, but in November it became apparent

802
00:39:29,760 --> 00:39:31,960
Speaker 4: that the city would have a budget surplus, so Dickens

803
00:39:31,960 --> 00:39:34,880
Speaker 4: and council raised that to nine percent, bringing APD to

804
00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:37,360
Speaker 4: a total of a twenty seven percent raise over the

805
00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:38,560
Speaker 4: course of three years.

806
00:39:38,680 --> 00:39:41,480
Speaker 2: Funny how much money they're just getting pumped this past

807
00:39:41,520 --> 00:39:42,040
Speaker 2: ten years.

808
00:39:42,120 --> 00:39:44,239
Speaker 4: And I don't know what happens like three years ago,

809
00:39:44,440 --> 00:39:46,600
Speaker 4: but it seems like something shouldn't.

810
00:39:46,880 --> 00:39:47,000
Speaker 5: No.

811
00:39:47,040 --> 00:39:49,560
Speaker 2: I mean, like you were talking about how like how

812
00:39:50,080 --> 00:39:53,759
Speaker 2: Dickens was like previously working to get like like a

813
00:39:53,800 --> 00:39:57,399
Speaker 2: seventy million reduction in police budget. You know, probably probably

814
00:39:57,719 --> 00:39:59,680
Speaker 2: in some ways, probably just like for pr ras because

815
00:39:59,719 --> 00:40:02,160
Speaker 2: during twenty that was the popular thing to do. And

816
00:40:02,200 --> 00:40:05,319
Speaker 2: now he's just like funneling millions and millions dollars towards

817
00:40:05,320 --> 00:40:10,400
Speaker 2: the police Foundation, towards individual officers, towards raises, bonuses, you know,

818
00:40:10,840 --> 00:40:12,080
Speaker 2: standard mayor stuff.

819
00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:14,359
Speaker 4: Oh and we're not done. In November, it was an

820
00:40:14,360 --> 00:40:18,600
Speaker 4: early Christmas for APD. Dickens also debuted forty new SCAD

821
00:40:18,680 --> 00:40:20,680
Speaker 4: and so SCAD is the Savannah College of Art, and

822
00:40:20,719 --> 00:40:22,759
Speaker 4: design the Arts College.

823
00:40:22,520 --> 00:40:23,760
Speaker 3: The big Art college in Georgia.

824
00:40:23,840 --> 00:40:27,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, so they designed these police Ford Explorer vehicles for

825
00:40:28,000 --> 00:40:29,879
Speaker 4: an officer take home program.

826
00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:30,799
Speaker 3: Via look like shit.

827
00:40:31,200 --> 00:40:34,879
Speaker 4: Each vehicle cost sixty thousand dollars. So the total price

828
00:40:34,960 --> 00:40:37,319
Speaker 4: tag of this was two point four million dollars to

829
00:40:37,760 --> 00:40:39,480
Speaker 4: improve officer morale.

830
00:40:40,120 --> 00:40:42,400
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, let's let's get them, get them, you know,

831
00:40:42,760 --> 00:40:45,040
Speaker 2: two million dollars with the cars, just to make them happy.

832
00:40:45,880 --> 00:40:46,040
Speaker 7: Uh.

833
00:40:46,120 --> 00:40:49,280
Speaker 4: Seventy additional takeo vehicles are in the pipeline once equipment

834
00:40:49,360 --> 00:40:52,320
Speaker 4: becomes available to out cool. So yeah, this this program

835
00:40:52,440 --> 00:40:53,520
Speaker 4: is just continuing to grow.

836
00:40:53,680 --> 00:40:58,439
Speaker 2: Fuck whatever scad designer was paid to fucking design those

837
00:40:58,600 --> 00:40:59,360
Speaker 2: shitty cars.

838
00:40:59,600 --> 00:41:01,480
Speaker 4: So one of the things that was missing during the

839
00:41:01,520 --> 00:41:04,719
Speaker 4: budget season back back in spring was the very thing

840
00:41:04,719 --> 00:41:08,680
Speaker 4: that helped Dickens solidifie his image as a Progressive Council member,

841
00:41:08,800 --> 00:41:13,280
Speaker 4: affordable housing. In his initial budget, Dickens put no increase

842
00:41:13,360 --> 00:41:16,200
Speaker 4: in affordable housing for his alleged you had.

843
00:41:16,000 --> 00:41:18,680
Speaker 2: A budget surplus, and you're like, no, let's give them

844
00:41:18,719 --> 00:41:20,560
Speaker 2: a give all the money to the police who were

845
00:41:20,560 --> 00:41:22,800
Speaker 2: already getting a ninety million dollar training facility.

846
00:41:22,880 --> 00:41:24,000
Speaker 3: Let's give even more money.

847
00:41:24,360 --> 00:41:27,480
Speaker 4: Sure, great, So Dan Immergluckt, the GSU professor I just

848
00:41:27,520 --> 00:41:30,840
Speaker 4: mentioned he was. He's an affordable housing advocate and he

849
00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:34,400
Speaker 4: was part of Dickens's transition team. And he told Capital

850
00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:38,000
Speaker 4: B after the prospective budget was released, quote, for this

851
00:41:38,080 --> 00:41:40,560
Speaker 4: to be his first budget to make a step backwards

852
00:41:40,760 --> 00:41:45,600
Speaker 4: is extremely disappointing. And that's basically how all the progressives felt. Yeah,

853
00:41:45,640 --> 00:41:49,279
Speaker 4: so Dickens did cave to housing advocate pressure and he

854
00:41:49,400 --> 00:41:52,480
Speaker 4: added an additional seven million dollars in the affordable housing

855
00:41:52,520 --> 00:41:54,680
Speaker 4: budget before the budget.

856
00:41:54,400 --> 00:41:56,680
Speaker 3: Was passed in June. Cool cool, cool.

857
00:41:57,040 --> 00:42:00,000
Speaker 4: Remember back in twenty nineteen and twenty twenty one, everyone

858
00:42:00,440 --> 00:42:02,520
Speaker 4: was an agreement that the jail was going to close.

859
00:42:03,000 --> 00:42:05,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, the the A, they were going to convert it

860
00:42:05,640 --> 00:42:06,319
Speaker 2: to that other thing.

861
00:42:06,320 --> 00:42:07,560
Speaker 4: That it was going to be a center for Diversion

862
00:42:07,600 --> 00:42:09,640
Speaker 4: in Equity. Yeah, it was going to be great, and

863
00:42:09,640 --> 00:42:11,239
Speaker 4: by this point it actually had a name, the John

864
00:42:11,320 --> 00:42:12,960
Speaker 4: Lewis Center for Diversion in Equity.

865
00:42:13,200 --> 00:42:13,480
Speaker 3: Great.

866
00:42:14,840 --> 00:42:17,680
Speaker 4: But in June of twenty twenty two, city Council voted

867
00:42:17,719 --> 00:42:21,200
Speaker 4: down legislation authorizing the mayor to close the jail. Then

868
00:42:21,360 --> 00:42:24,840
Speaker 4: plans came out in early August that instead of closing ACDC,

869
00:42:25,040 --> 00:42:27,680
Speaker 4: Fulton County in Atlanta were in talks to rent seven

870
00:42:27,760 --> 00:42:31,280
Speaker 4: hundred beds from the facility to Fulton County to address

871
00:42:31,320 --> 00:42:35,240
Speaker 4: the overcrowding problem at Rice Street, Fulton County's main jail.

872
00:42:35,719 --> 00:42:37,520
Speaker 2: Maybe they should just keep less people in jail.

873
00:42:38,320 --> 00:42:41,480
Speaker 4: Activists warned that the lease would not alleviate these issues

874
00:42:41,520 --> 00:42:44,760
Speaker 4: and that City Council needed to instead focus on decarceration.

875
00:42:44,960 --> 00:42:47,200
Speaker 4: And then there was an acl new report that came

876
00:42:47,239 --> 00:42:50,120
Speaker 4: out later in the year that found forty five percent

877
00:42:50,200 --> 00:42:53,719
Speaker 4: of the overall jail population in Fulden County is unindicted.

878
00:42:54,280 --> 00:42:56,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's holding people that actually have not been indicted.

879
00:42:57,000 --> 00:42:57,759
Speaker 3: Ferdy crime. Great.

880
00:42:58,000 --> 00:43:00,799
Speaker 4: Remember it was Dickens who introduced the legend to find

881
00:43:00,840 --> 00:43:03,719
Speaker 4: a way to repurpose this jail, he said in a

882
00:43:03,760 --> 00:43:08,000
Speaker 4: statement when the lease to Fulton County was coming up. Quote,

883
00:43:08,239 --> 00:43:11,880
Speaker 4: as I've continually supported since my time on Atlanta City Council,

884
00:43:11,920 --> 00:43:15,480
Speaker 4: I remain committed to fully repurposing the ACDC facility for

885
00:43:15,600 --> 00:43:19,120
Speaker 4: non incarceration purposes. But we are also confronted by a

886
00:43:19,160 --> 00:43:22,680
Speaker 4: real and immediate crisis of overcrowding at the Fulton County Jail.

887
00:43:23,120 --> 00:43:26,560
Speaker 4: Many of these detainees are Atlanta residents. And our conscience

888
00:43:26,600 --> 00:43:29,760
Speaker 4: calls us to act. This is a temporary lease agreement

889
00:43:29,800 --> 00:43:31,560
Speaker 4: and will allow the City of Atlanta to play a

890
00:43:31,680 --> 00:43:35,400
Speaker 4: role in alleviating this humanitarian crisis and to provide the

891
00:43:35,520 --> 00:43:38,600
Speaker 4: necessary time for Fulton County to develop and implement a

892
00:43:38,680 --> 00:43:42,719
Speaker 4: long term solution humanitarians, because we always know adding more

893
00:43:42,719 --> 00:43:48,600
Speaker 4: prison beds really reduces the problem. Uh So, the temporary

894
00:43:48,600 --> 00:43:51,000
Speaker 4: solution that we're talking about is a four year agreement,

895
00:43:51,360 --> 00:43:53,720
Speaker 4: and Fulton County is paying the City of Atlanta fifty

896
00:43:53,760 --> 00:43:56,359
Speaker 4: dollars per bed per night, So when the full seven

897
00:43:56,440 --> 00:43:59,120
Speaker 4: hundred beds are taking Atlanta will be making twelve point

898
00:43:59,360 --> 00:44:01,160
Speaker 4: seven million dollars a year.

899
00:44:01,400 --> 00:44:03,640
Speaker 2: Remember when we had to release all those people from

900
00:44:03,719 --> 00:44:06,560
Speaker 2: prison and jail in twenty twenty to overcrowding and then

901
00:44:06,719 --> 00:44:08,680
Speaker 2: violent crime dropped. Isn't that crazy?

902
00:44:09,239 --> 00:44:10,200
Speaker 3: That is crazy.

903
00:44:11,200 --> 00:44:13,719
Speaker 4: So the twelve point seven million dollars sounds like a

904
00:44:13,760 --> 00:44:16,400
Speaker 4: lot of money, But before the lease went into effect,

905
00:44:16,480 --> 00:44:21,239
Speaker 4: acdc's average population was under fifty individuals per night. The

906
00:44:21,239 --> 00:44:24,360
Speaker 4: city's Department of Corrections budget is sixteen point one million

907
00:44:24,400 --> 00:44:26,520
Speaker 4: dollars a year, so the city is still going to

908
00:44:26,600 --> 00:44:30,040
Speaker 4: lose money running this jail. Even with Fulden County paying

909
00:44:30,880 --> 00:44:32,320
Speaker 4: for their.

910
00:44:32,400 --> 00:44:34,319
Speaker 3: Retainties for their share date answer. Yeah.

911
00:44:34,920 --> 00:44:37,680
Speaker 4: Then on April fourteenth of this year, the news came

912
00:44:37,680 --> 00:44:40,719
Speaker 4: out that Lashawan Thompson died in Rice Street Jail, having

913
00:44:40,800 --> 00:44:45,319
Speaker 4: been neglected and ignored by Fulden County deputies. When they

914
00:44:45,320 --> 00:44:49,160
Speaker 4: finally checked on Thompson, they found that he had been

915
00:44:49,160 --> 00:44:53,520
Speaker 4: eaten alive by bugs as he lay dying. And this

916
00:44:53,640 --> 00:44:56,560
Speaker 4: was in September of twenty twenty two, just after Atlanta

917
00:44:56,800 --> 00:45:00,160
Speaker 4: approved this lease. The cell Thompson was in was so

918
00:45:00,200 --> 00:45:03,240
Speaker 4: disgusting that a jail employee refused to enter without putting

919
00:45:03,239 --> 00:45:04,560
Speaker 4: on a hazmat suit first.

920
00:45:04,680 --> 00:45:06,399
Speaker 2: Oh, imagine what it was like to live in there.

921
00:45:06,440 --> 00:45:07,080
Speaker 3: That's crazy.

922
00:45:07,280 --> 00:45:10,719
Speaker 4: And this death isn't the result of overcrowding. Thompson was

923
00:45:10,800 --> 00:45:13,719
Speaker 4: in jail on simple battery charges and being held on

924
00:45:13,760 --> 00:45:17,839
Speaker 4: a twenty five hundred dollars bond. He was also unindicted.

925
00:45:17,880 --> 00:45:20,040
Speaker 4: There was no reason for Thompson to be in jail

926
00:45:20,040 --> 00:45:22,120
Speaker 4: at the time of his death. If he had the money,

927
00:45:22,200 --> 00:45:23,640
Speaker 4: he probably would have been it live today.

928
00:45:23,680 --> 00:45:25,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's just blocking up poor people.

929
00:45:25,920 --> 00:45:27,880
Speaker 4: And yeah, so this is the sort of thing that

930
00:45:27,920 --> 00:45:32,800
Speaker 4: Dickenson Council have enabled with this new jail lease. Before

931
00:45:32,800 --> 00:45:35,239
Speaker 4: we get into Dickenson copp City in twenty twenty three,

932
00:45:35,400 --> 00:45:38,360
Speaker 4: we need to talk briefly about some more American Rescue

933
00:45:38,400 --> 00:45:42,080
Speaker 4: Plan Act sheick Henry Dickinson Council pulled off this year.

934
00:45:42,840 --> 00:45:45,200
Speaker 4: At the end of January, Atlanta announced that it was

935
00:45:45,239 --> 00:45:48,800
Speaker 4: returning ten million dollars in ARPA funds earmarked for rental

936
00:45:48,800 --> 00:45:52,080
Speaker 4: assistance that the city never used. What did just use

937
00:45:52,120 --> 00:45:56,480
Speaker 4: informental assistance? So this naturally upset a lot of people.

938
00:45:56,600 --> 00:46:00,960
Speaker 4: Public comment was quite feisty that day. ADVANTA is of

939
00:46:01,000 --> 00:46:03,680
Speaker 4: course increasingly pricing out its legacy residents, as we just

940
00:46:03,719 --> 00:46:06,560
Speaker 4: talked about, and ten million dollars would go a long

941
00:46:06,640 --> 00:46:11,320
Speaker 4: way to helping combat that. And then to add insult

942
00:46:11,360 --> 00:46:14,680
Speaker 4: to injury. A few weeks later, Council passed and Dickens

943
00:46:14,680 --> 00:46:17,960
Speaker 4: signed legislation that gave five hundred thousand dollars in arp

944
00:46:17,960 --> 00:46:21,640
Speaker 4: OF funds to the Atlanta Police Foundation to provide additional

945
00:46:21,680 --> 00:46:26,560
Speaker 4: police and first responder housing. So really reinforcing the city's

946
00:46:26,560 --> 00:46:28,319
Speaker 4: going to take care of police before everyone else.

947
00:46:28,480 --> 00:46:32,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, oh boy.

948
00:46:31,400 --> 00:46:34,919
Speaker 4: So let's move on to how Dickens handled cop City

949
00:46:35,160 --> 00:46:37,640
Speaker 4: since January eighteenth. I think is probably a good place

950
00:46:37,680 --> 00:46:41,160
Speaker 4: to start. The killing of Tortigito by Georgia State Patrol

951
00:46:41,200 --> 00:46:45,320
Speaker 4: officers the day that everything happened, Dickens wished the trooper

952
00:46:45,360 --> 00:46:48,320
Speaker 4: a speedy recovery. I can find nowhere in which Dickens

953
00:46:48,360 --> 00:46:52,240
Speaker 4: made any comment other than it's unfortunate that Tortigito was killed.

954
00:46:52,920 --> 00:46:56,239
Speaker 4: Not surprising. He never accepts any level of responsibility for

955
00:46:56,360 --> 00:47:00,160
Speaker 4: towards death, insisting instead that that responsibility lies with were

956
00:47:00,239 --> 00:47:02,480
Speaker 4: just State Patrol or to Cab County. He refuses to

957
00:47:02,480 --> 00:47:05,400
Speaker 4: acknowledge the fact that the city's insistence on trying to

958
00:47:05,400 --> 00:47:08,280
Speaker 4: build cop City both ensured port and the officer's presence

959
00:47:08,320 --> 00:47:09,120
Speaker 4: in the woods.

960
00:47:08,800 --> 00:47:10,920
Speaker 2: And napd's involvement to the raid.

961
00:47:11,120 --> 00:47:15,800
Speaker 4: Like, yeah, so this moment also kind of changed how

962
00:47:16,000 --> 00:47:20,200
Speaker 4: Dickens approaches cop City. Before he was relatively quiet, but

963
00:47:20,239 --> 00:47:24,280
Speaker 4: he begins this like full court media press after January eighteenth,

964
00:47:24,360 --> 00:47:26,680
Speaker 4: and we don't know the exact details, but it does

965
00:47:26,719 --> 00:47:29,719
Speaker 4: seem like to Cab County, Atlanta officials in APF came

966
00:47:29,760 --> 00:47:34,880
Speaker 4: to an agreement in January to pass this land disturbance permit.

967
00:47:37,200 --> 00:47:40,560
Speaker 4: In February, after a student protest at the Atlanta University

968
00:47:40,600 --> 00:47:44,800
Speaker 4: Center and letters from AUC faculty that opposed construction of

969
00:47:44,840 --> 00:47:47,840
Speaker 4: cop City and expressed solidarity with protesters. Dickens announced that

970
00:47:47,920 --> 00:47:51,040
Speaker 4: he would hold a forum with the president of Morehouse College,

971
00:47:51,120 --> 00:47:54,240
Speaker 4: David A. Thomas, who is a vocal cop City supporter.

972
00:47:54,760 --> 00:47:57,480
Speaker 4: This was a big problem for Dickens as the colleges

973
00:47:57,520 --> 00:47:59,759
Speaker 4: that make up the AEC and we didn't talk about

974
00:47:59,760 --> 00:48:03,520
Speaker 4: which once those were earlier. It's Morehouse, Spellman, Clark University,

975
00:48:03,600 --> 00:48:06,600
Speaker 4: Morehouse College of Medicine. All of them carry with them

976
00:48:06,640 --> 00:48:09,360
Speaker 4: an incredible amount of historical and political power in the

977
00:48:09,400 --> 00:48:14,040
Speaker 4: city of Atlanta, so keeping AUC support is pretty vital

978
00:48:14,239 --> 00:48:16,920
Speaker 4: if you want to continue to run for elections. The

979
00:48:16,960 --> 00:48:19,760
Speaker 4: attendance at the forum was limited to only AUC students

980
00:48:19,760 --> 00:48:22,719
Speaker 4: and faculty, but a stream was duped and broadcast on

981
00:48:22,760 --> 00:48:26,200
Speaker 4: Instagram Live. Unfortunately, I have not been able to find

982
00:48:26,200 --> 00:48:28,319
Speaker 4: a complete copy, but there are definitely highlights that have

983
00:48:28,400 --> 00:48:32,880
Speaker 4: made it out. Overall, Dickens was pretty patronizing and sarcastic

984
00:48:32,960 --> 00:48:35,680
Speaker 4: to students. Several times students called the mayor out for

985
00:48:35,760 --> 00:48:39,040
Speaker 4: his behavior, but he continued to show disdain the rest

986
00:48:39,080 --> 00:48:41,560
Speaker 4: of the night. One student called him out for his

987
00:48:41,640 --> 00:48:44,839
Speaker 4: lack of prior acknowledgment of towards death and Dickens's usual

988
00:48:44,920 --> 00:48:48,799
Speaker 4: sidestep responsibility, again saying that it was unfortunate toward died,

989
00:48:48,840 --> 00:48:51,319
Speaker 4: but insisting he was the wrong person to blame because

990
00:48:51,320 --> 00:48:53,960
Speaker 4: it didn't happen in the city of Atlanta and the

991
00:48:54,000 --> 00:48:57,799
Speaker 4: officer was not from APD. At one point, Dickens went

992
00:48:57,840 --> 00:48:59,759
Speaker 4: on a TI raid after a student called him a

993
00:48:59,800 --> 00:49:03,040
Speaker 4: self out this we do have audio for Hey, let me.

994
00:49:03,000 --> 00:49:05,560
Speaker 3: Just check this, which I ain't never been a sell out.

995
00:49:06,280 --> 00:49:09,000
Speaker 7: You can't, you can't. You got to check. You got

996
00:49:09,000 --> 00:49:10,640
Speaker 7: the wrong resume that you're looking at.

997
00:49:11,120 --> 00:49:11,920
Speaker 3: I know, I know.

998
00:49:12,000 --> 00:49:14,640
Speaker 1: We want to yell and yet shout out things.

999
00:49:14,760 --> 00:49:15,440
Speaker 7: Just be heard.

1000
00:49:15,760 --> 00:49:17,640
Speaker 5: You've been heard, You've been heard.

1001
00:49:17,960 --> 00:49:20,399
Speaker 3: I guess what you picked the wrong resume to pulling

1002
00:49:20,480 --> 00:49:21,120
Speaker 3: on a race car.

1003
00:49:22,160 --> 00:49:25,040
Speaker 4: Whatever Dickens was hoping to accomplish that night, he failed.

1004
00:49:25,239 --> 00:49:28,880
Speaker 4: Several memes and audio remixes of Dickens's performance went viral

1005
00:49:28,960 --> 00:49:31,600
Speaker 4: in the Atlanta Twitter sphere and continue to crop up

1006
00:49:31,600 --> 00:49:33,920
Speaker 4: this day, like the I am not a sellout one

1007
00:49:33,920 --> 00:49:35,000
Speaker 4: I don't know if you've seen.

1008
00:49:34,800 --> 00:49:40,640
Speaker 2: It, is that the I'm still ruined by the by

1009
00:49:40,680 --> 00:49:45,040
Speaker 2: the by the doctor Han Good good doctor memes. That

1010
00:49:45,160 --> 00:49:48,680
Speaker 2: just reminded me of the I am a surgeon memes.

1011
00:49:48,719 --> 00:49:51,439
Speaker 3: So great job, great job. Yeah, great work.

1012
00:49:52,640 --> 00:49:55,160
Speaker 4: So Dickens has of course continued to try it or

1013
00:49:55,360 --> 00:49:58,399
Speaker 4: to build or manufacture support for Copsody over the next

1014
00:49:58,440 --> 00:50:01,520
Speaker 4: two months. In March, she was visiting the neighborhoods around

1015
00:50:01,600 --> 00:50:04,680
Speaker 4: cop City to hear feedback from residents, and he of

1016
00:50:04,680 --> 00:50:07,960
Speaker 4: course started in the wealthier neighborhoods and he only went

1017
00:50:08,000 --> 00:50:10,719
Speaker 4: to the less affluent neighborhood, which, like cop City is

1018
00:50:11,320 --> 00:50:15,200
Speaker 4: actually in after a member of the Community Stakeholder Advisory

1019
00:50:15,239 --> 00:50:18,400
Speaker 4: Committee called him out for only favoring the wealthy communities.

1020
00:50:18,920 --> 00:50:21,680
Speaker 4: Local residents have told ACPC that Dickens skips over the

1021
00:50:21,680 --> 00:50:23,520
Speaker 4: houses with DTF signs outfront.

1022
00:50:23,680 --> 00:50:25,000
Speaker 3: That makes sense, Yeah, checks out.

1023
00:50:25,040 --> 00:50:28,160
Speaker 4: He's done several interviews now on cop City with both

1024
00:50:28,200 --> 00:50:32,279
Speaker 4: the AJAC and wab a local public radio station. The

1025
00:50:32,320 --> 00:50:36,440
Speaker 4: AGAC interview was particularly interesting because one of the interviewers

1026
00:50:36,480 --> 00:50:38,880
Speaker 4: asked Dickens what would happen if cop City ended in

1027
00:50:38,920 --> 00:50:43,320
Speaker 4: a cost overrun. Dickens told her that any large overruns

1028
00:50:43,320 --> 00:50:46,440
Speaker 4: would be paid for by philanthropic dollars from the foundation.

1029
00:50:47,160 --> 00:50:51,200
Speaker 4: He said this out he said this, but a member

1030
00:50:51,280 --> 00:50:55,120
Speaker 4: of his cabinet had already confirmed that two APF City

1031
00:50:55,200 --> 00:50:57,279
Speaker 4: was willing to pay thirty two million dollars at that point,

1032
00:50:57,360 --> 00:50:59,719
Speaker 4: and of course we've now learned that that number is

1033
00:51:00,000 --> 00:51:01,480
Speaker 4: sixty seven million dollars.

1034
00:51:03,320 --> 00:51:03,440
Speaker 1: Uh.

1035
00:51:04,239 --> 00:51:06,640
Speaker 4: Did you follow the City of Atlanta's Twitter account?

1036
00:51:07,239 --> 00:51:07,439
Speaker 3: No?

1037
00:51:07,640 --> 00:51:10,200
Speaker 2: I don't want to see that shit, but I know

1038
00:51:10,239 --> 00:51:12,320
Speaker 2: they have turned it into just a cop city a

1039
00:51:12,360 --> 00:51:13,239
Speaker 2: propaganda chancel.

1040
00:51:13,400 --> 00:51:16,640
Speaker 4: It's a NonStop propaganda channel, which is like really fun

1041
00:51:16,640 --> 00:51:19,879
Speaker 4: to watch because every cop city post is like bombarded

1042
00:51:19,920 --> 00:51:21,560
Speaker 4: with negative replies and quot tweets.

1043
00:51:21,560 --> 00:51:23,880
Speaker 3: I've seen these posts, I know. I know.

1044
00:51:24,000 --> 00:51:27,040
Speaker 2: I've talked about how they launched their own website trying

1045
00:51:27,040 --> 00:51:29,680
Speaker 2: to combat all of the top cop city websites. And yeah,

1046
00:51:29,680 --> 00:51:32,919
Speaker 2: they've really accelerated their propaganda the past few months. And yeah,

1047
00:51:33,000 --> 00:51:36,160
Speaker 2: just turned the actual City of Atlanto account into a

1048
00:51:36,320 --> 00:51:41,399
Speaker 2: cop city propaganda uh like platform, which is funny because

1049
00:51:41,440 --> 00:51:43,719
Speaker 2: they oft they also will often advocate and say like

1050
00:51:43,880 --> 00:51:45,600
Speaker 2: this isn't the City of Atlanta's project, this is the

1051
00:51:45,640 --> 00:51:49,120
Speaker 2: APS project, which they'll often like use that use that refrain,

1052
00:51:49,560 --> 00:51:51,759
Speaker 2: and yet we have the City of Atlanto account being

1053
00:51:51,760 --> 00:51:55,360
Speaker 2: turned into a into a megaphone to promote to this project.

1054
00:51:55,440 --> 00:51:57,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, the Atlanta Police Foundation doesn't actually give interviews to

1055
00:51:59,160 --> 00:52:02,040
Speaker 4: like news anymore. Yeah, they filtered and everything through the

1056
00:52:02,040 --> 00:52:03,400
Speaker 4: City of Atlanta, which.

1057
00:52:04,840 --> 00:52:06,280
Speaker 3: Normal charity organization.

1058
00:52:07,040 --> 00:52:09,279
Speaker 4: It's completely normal for them never to show up at

1059
00:52:09,280 --> 00:52:12,560
Speaker 4: City Council to talk about anything, and to hide from

1060
00:52:12,600 --> 00:52:18,040
Speaker 4: the public. It's fine. So meanwhile, Dickens is of course

1061
00:52:18,160 --> 00:52:21,319
Speaker 4: like dogged by opposition to cop City at every turn.

1062
00:52:21,800 --> 00:52:24,840
Speaker 4: On April thirteenth, three Georgia State University students, with the

1063
00:52:24,880 --> 00:52:28,600
Speaker 4: support of this keynote speaker, interrupted a global symposium Studies

1064
00:52:28,920 --> 00:52:33,799
Speaker 4: that Dickens was giving opening remarks. Dickens grows increasingly frustrated

1065
00:52:33,840 --> 00:52:36,360
Speaker 4: as the disruptors will not leave, and eventually Dickens and

1066
00:52:36,480 --> 00:52:41,040
Speaker 4: his retinue like just walk out. On April eleventh, Dickens

1067
00:52:41,120 --> 00:52:43,880
Speaker 4: had hired a new senior policy advisor named Karen Rodgers.

1068
00:52:44,680 --> 00:52:48,000
Speaker 4: Dickens brought Rogers over from the Atlanta Police Foundation, where

1069
00:52:48,040 --> 00:52:51,840
Speaker 4: she'd spent seven years working in community engagement, and he

1070
00:52:51,880 --> 00:52:54,120
Speaker 4: brought her on, of course, to advise about cop City.

1071
00:52:54,760 --> 00:52:59,600
Speaker 4: On April eighteenth, Decab County Medicical Examiner released the autopsy

1072
00:52:59,600 --> 00:53:02,279
Speaker 4: on towards death and that same day, just before the

1073
00:53:02,400 --> 00:53:05,759
Speaker 4: article came out that the autopsity was released, Dickins tell

1074
00:53:05,800 --> 00:53:08,840
Speaker 4: a press conference on the steps of city Hall. He

1075
00:53:08,920 --> 00:53:11,839
Speaker 4: was surrounded by a group of nearly one hundred all

1076
00:53:11,920 --> 00:53:16,200
Speaker 4: older black leaders, including former mayor Bill Campbell and Andrew Young.

1077
00:53:17,440 --> 00:53:20,040
Speaker 4: This appears to have been a hastily thrown together event

1078
00:53:20,080 --> 00:53:22,440
Speaker 4: and only a few media outlets were even aware that

1079
00:53:22,480 --> 00:53:24,640
Speaker 4: it was happening, Like, we didn't get an update that.

1080
00:53:24,560 --> 00:53:26,320
Speaker 3: It was going. I didn't know that was happening.

1081
00:53:26,400 --> 00:53:28,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, it just it kind of cropped up and seemed

1082
00:53:28,880 --> 00:53:31,400
Speaker 4: to take everyone by surprise. And of course it looks

1083
00:53:31,440 --> 00:53:34,440
Speaker 4: like the press conference was held to counteract the autopsy

1084
00:53:34,480 --> 00:53:37,399
Speaker 4: report coming out that day. Yeah, but that failed, and

1085
00:53:37,560 --> 00:53:41,680
Speaker 4: the autopsy report was the bigger story. Notably, the AJAC

1086
00:53:42,000 --> 00:53:44,960
Speaker 4: did not print the autopsy report on the first day,

1087
00:53:45,040 --> 00:53:48,000
Speaker 4: but it was pretty well covered elsewhere on the landscape,

1088
00:53:49,080 --> 00:53:51,759
Speaker 4: and the autopsy caused a second city councilor to speak

1089
00:53:51,760 --> 00:53:55,279
Speaker 4: out against cop city and a growing number of state

1090
00:53:55,320 --> 00:53:58,920
Speaker 4: representatives have started to speak out, you know, as that happened,

1091
00:53:58,960 --> 00:54:02,160
Speaker 4: and as the rest of the solidarity fund. But Dickens

1092
00:54:02,280 --> 00:54:05,160
Speaker 4: is of course unmoved and preparing for this fight to

1093
00:54:05,239 --> 00:54:08,760
Speaker 4: last a while. Then, of course, there was the city

1094
00:54:08,760 --> 00:54:12,520
Speaker 4: council vote on June fifth, and there had been some

1095
00:54:12,560 --> 00:54:16,000
Speaker 4: work done behind the scenes to try to get this

1096
00:54:16,080 --> 00:54:19,279
Speaker 4: set back to committee. Apparently Dickens like peeled off city.

1097
00:54:19,360 --> 00:54:22,719
Speaker 4: He called the maybe votes into his office early that

1098
00:54:22,840 --> 00:54:26,480
Speaker 4: morning and peeled off the votes to ensure that that

1099
00:54:26,640 --> 00:54:31,400
Speaker 4: copsity continued on. We should I wrote this, of course,

1100
00:54:32,080 --> 00:54:35,560
Speaker 4: I think months ago at this point. So, yeah, a

1101
00:54:35,600 --> 00:54:40,719
Speaker 4: couple quick highlights again the affordable housing. So with our

1102
00:54:40,760 --> 00:54:43,400
Speaker 4: affordable housing, it is supposed to get a certain percentage

1103
00:54:43,440 --> 00:54:46,359
Speaker 4: of our general operating budget, and it started out at

1104
00:54:46,360 --> 00:54:47,880
Speaker 4: one and a half percent, and then it was supposed

1105
00:54:47,880 --> 00:54:48,960
Speaker 4: to go up to two percent and two and a

1106
00:54:49,000 --> 00:54:50,719
Speaker 4: half percents where it's going to cap out. So this

1107
00:54:50,800 --> 00:54:52,759
Speaker 4: year was supposed to go to two percent. He kept

1108
00:54:52,800 --> 00:54:55,760
Speaker 4: it one and a half percent, but he did announce

1109
00:54:55,800 --> 00:54:59,680
Speaker 4: a public private partnership to offer one hundred million dollars

1110
00:54:59,760 --> 00:55:04,600
Speaker 4: in in affordable housing bonds. Really, so we we love

1111
00:55:04,680 --> 00:55:08,360
Speaker 4: our public private partnership Atlantaway things to get things done.

1112
00:55:08,560 --> 00:55:09,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, that seems like the way.

1113
00:55:09,640 --> 00:55:12,239
Speaker 2: That's I mean, that's what I'm excited about for for

1114
00:55:12,400 --> 00:55:16,040
Speaker 2: the the extra thirty million dollars bond to APF. That'll

1115
00:55:16,239 --> 00:55:18,640
Speaker 2: certainly get paid back in a reasonable time period.

1116
00:55:18,480 --> 00:55:22,160
Speaker 4: Any completely reasonable time period, and you know that'll get

1117
00:55:22,160 --> 00:55:25,080
Speaker 4: paid back, I'm sure. And we're not going to continue

1118
00:55:25,080 --> 00:55:27,440
Speaker 4: to pay anything. And APF is not going to make

1119
00:55:27,440 --> 00:55:28,080
Speaker 4: any money.

1120
00:55:27,840 --> 00:55:29,000
Speaker 3: Off No, this is none.

1121
00:55:30,400 --> 00:55:33,120
Speaker 2: Surely this project is not a massive taxpayer sinkhole.

1122
00:55:35,000 --> 00:55:38,279
Speaker 3: So that's it. That's the mayor.

1123
00:55:38,400 --> 00:55:38,959
Speaker 4: That's the mayor.

1124
00:55:39,000 --> 00:55:42,600
Speaker 3: That's where we are. And then when's the next mayoral election.

1125
00:55:42,400 --> 00:55:45,040
Speaker 4: So twenty twenty five, and of course Dickens has to

1126
00:55:45,040 --> 00:55:48,160
Speaker 4: move the needle. There was there were like some calls

1127
00:55:48,200 --> 00:55:52,480
Speaker 4: for a recall campaign around Chickens, especially amongst the movement.

1128
00:55:53,160 --> 00:55:55,600
Speaker 4: Like I personally don't think that it would have any

1129
00:55:55,680 --> 00:56:00,200
Speaker 4: chance of succeeding. There's kind of there's a perception that

1130
00:56:00,200 --> 00:56:03,200
Speaker 4: that he's doing okay. And you know, when you have

1131
00:56:03,360 --> 00:56:07,560
Speaker 4: somebody that was probed by the FBI for corruption just

1132
00:56:07,600 --> 00:56:11,000
Speaker 4: a few years ago, your standards of what the area

1133
00:56:11,120 --> 00:56:11,800
Speaker 4: kind of changes.

1134
00:56:12,239 --> 00:56:15,120
Speaker 2: People seem to be putting lots of their They dedicated

1135
00:56:15,880 --> 00:56:18,360
Speaker 2: some of their dedicated efforts in terms of like electoral

1136
00:56:18,400 --> 00:56:21,759
Speaker 2: sign up stuff as being put towards the referendum which

1137
00:56:21,760 --> 00:56:24,319
Speaker 2: got approved a few days ago. To continue, they need

1138
00:56:24,400 --> 00:56:26,319
Speaker 2: to colletch like what seventy five thousand signatures from people

1139
00:56:26,320 --> 00:56:29,279
Speaker 2: who were residents of Atlanta and registered to vote in

1140
00:56:29,280 --> 00:56:32,239
Speaker 2: twenty twenty one, which seems like a pretty high bar.

1141
00:56:33,000 --> 00:56:34,160
Speaker 2: That's a lot of signatures.

1142
00:56:34,200 --> 00:56:37,200
Speaker 4: So it's a lot of signatures. And because the organizers

1143
00:56:37,239 --> 00:56:40,520
Speaker 4: say this municipal clerk was like playing games and withholding

1144
00:56:40,960 --> 00:56:45,320
Speaker 4: approving the signatures, so they don't have approving the referendum,

1145
00:56:45,360 --> 00:56:48,080
Speaker 4: and so they don't have the full like sixty days,

1146
00:56:48,200 --> 00:56:50,640
Speaker 4: like two weeks fifty No, it's fifty seven days. So

1147
00:56:51,160 --> 00:56:53,719
Speaker 4: I think it's like it's they have to have them

1148
00:56:53,760 --> 00:56:55,640
Speaker 4: by August fifteenth.

1149
00:56:55,320 --> 00:56:57,920
Speaker 2: Which is a lot of signatures, and August fifting is

1150
00:56:57,960 --> 00:57:02,320
Speaker 2: around when construction was supposed to art for cop city,

1151
00:57:02,400 --> 00:57:06,200
Speaker 2: So yeah, and then for other mayor roal candidates. I've

1152
00:57:06,360 --> 00:57:10,759
Speaker 2: heard rumor that friend of the show ontologically evil Mary

1153
00:57:10,800 --> 00:57:12,880
Speaker 2: Nor would may be interested in trying to run again.

1154
00:57:13,000 --> 00:57:15,840
Speaker 4: So this is like her her kind of move is

1155
00:57:15,880 --> 00:57:18,760
Speaker 4: she does she runs for mayor? All right, Well, first

1156
00:57:18,760 --> 00:57:20,600
Speaker 4: she does a term of city council and then she

1157
00:57:20,680 --> 00:57:23,280
Speaker 4: runs from mayor and then she doesn't get the mayorl spots,

1158
00:57:23,280 --> 00:57:25,120
Speaker 4: so she takes a you know, four years off, she

1159
00:57:25,160 --> 00:57:27,720
Speaker 4: comes back, runs for city council, runs from mayor, takes

1160
00:57:27,760 --> 00:57:30,880
Speaker 4: four years off. So we were now in her you know,

1161
00:57:31,000 --> 00:57:34,080
Speaker 4: mayor her city council term. And if she's going to

1162
00:57:34,080 --> 00:57:35,880
Speaker 4: do this for a third time, then she will run

1163
00:57:35,880 --> 00:57:41,560
Speaker 4: for mayor in twenty twenty five, which would suck. I mean,

1164
00:57:41,600 --> 00:57:42,920
Speaker 4: she came close last time.

1165
00:57:42,800 --> 00:57:46,560
Speaker 2: She did, and I think how depending on if, depending

1166
00:57:46,640 --> 00:57:49,040
Speaker 2: on how progress in the cop city construction goes.

1167
00:57:49,520 --> 00:57:53,000
Speaker 3: She has a way to frame this being like.

1168
00:57:52,080 --> 00:57:54,800
Speaker 2: Like I was the one who was actually in support

1169
00:57:54,840 --> 00:57:58,080
Speaker 2: of this popular proposal the whole time, and look we

1170
00:57:58,160 --> 00:57:59,760
Speaker 2: succeeded only because of me.

1171
00:58:00,440 --> 00:58:03,280
Speaker 4: Yes, she can do that, And there is so Atlanta's

1172
00:58:03,360 --> 00:58:06,360
Speaker 4: demographics are changing. We're no longer a majority block city.

1173
00:58:06,840 --> 00:58:10,920
Speaker 4: The population is down to like forty eight percent black people.

1174
00:58:11,080 --> 00:58:15,200
Speaker 4: So there Dickens is being called possibly the last black

1175
00:58:15,200 --> 00:58:19,800
Speaker 4: mayor of Atlanta, and you know that will be a

1176
00:58:19,840 --> 00:58:23,560
Speaker 4: shock to our systems. And Mary Norwood would be like

1177
00:58:23,880 --> 00:58:25,960
Speaker 4: just a way to quickly kill that.

1178
00:58:26,360 --> 00:58:28,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, And like I said, the only way to acurately

1179
00:58:28,720 --> 00:58:33,240
Speaker 2: describer is just ontologically evil like she is. She she

1180
00:58:33,400 --> 00:58:38,920
Speaker 2: is just that bad. She's like she's Yeah, it's not great,

1181
00:58:39,200 --> 00:58:42,520
Speaker 2: would not be fun. But she's not the mayor.

1182
00:58:42,560 --> 00:58:42,800
Speaker 8: It is.

1183
00:58:42,840 --> 00:58:44,560
Speaker 2: It is Mayor Dickens who is the shitty mayor of

1184
00:58:44,640 --> 00:58:47,840
Speaker 2: this episode, and based on how much power he has

1185
00:58:47,880 --> 00:58:50,200
Speaker 2: to change things and how much what he's decided to

1186
00:58:50,240 --> 00:58:52,960
Speaker 2: do with that power when instead of actually supporting all

1187
00:58:52,960 --> 00:58:56,000
Speaker 2: the affordable housing things, he's funneled millions of dollars to

1188
00:58:56,120 --> 00:58:59,400
Speaker 2: cop City, to the Atleanto Police Foundation, has refused any

1189
00:58:59,440 --> 00:59:05,080
Speaker 2: measure to revoke the land lease ordinance and even even

1190
00:59:05,200 --> 00:59:07,200
Speaker 2: even if not not to cancel the project, even just

1191
00:59:07,200 --> 00:59:09,200
Speaker 2: to move it somewhere else, He's refused every step of

1192
00:59:09,240 --> 00:59:13,040
Speaker 2: the way. And yeah, well we'll see how that does

1193
00:59:13,120 --> 00:59:14,480
Speaker 2: him in the next election cycle.

1194
00:59:14,560 --> 00:59:17,240
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm really interested to see, uh how he plays

1195
00:59:17,240 --> 00:59:17,920
Speaker 4: the referendum.

1196
00:59:19,480 --> 00:59:21,320
Speaker 2: I'm I'm I'm I'm interested to see if the referend

1197
00:59:21,400 --> 00:59:22,880
Speaker 2: them will even be a threat at all, because if

1198
00:59:22,880 --> 00:59:25,720
Speaker 2: it if it's, if it's, if it fails to get

1199
00:59:26,160 --> 00:59:28,600
Speaker 2: a significant abortion of signatures, then he may just ignore

1200
00:59:28,640 --> 00:59:30,680
Speaker 2: it because why would he bother to talk about it.

1201
00:59:30,760 --> 00:59:33,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, they're definitely not going to devote any resources to

1202
00:59:33,000 --> 00:59:36,240
Speaker 4: it until they're sure that it is a threat. But once,

1203
00:59:36,520 --> 00:59:39,320
Speaker 4: once it you know, potentially becomes a threat, they will,

1204
00:59:39,880 --> 00:59:41,080
Speaker 4: They've got to start doing something.

1205
00:59:41,280 --> 00:59:43,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, well we are we are like what two or

1206
00:59:43,960 --> 00:59:45,720
Speaker 2: three days into the week of Action at this point.

1207
00:59:47,000 --> 00:59:50,160
Speaker 2: I definitely I don't know what what things are like,

1208
00:59:50,280 --> 00:59:53,480
Speaker 2: but there's still is some days left. So yeah, if

1209
00:59:53,480 --> 00:59:56,280
Speaker 2: you if, if you're if you're in Atlanta, try to

1210
00:59:56,320 --> 00:59:59,400
Speaker 2: stay safe and stay as dangerous as you feel comfortable.

1211
00:59:59,520 --> 01:00:01,000
Speaker 4: Say hey to us when you see us.

1212
01:00:01,240 --> 01:00:04,520
Speaker 2: Sure, do you have any Do you have any things

1213
01:00:04,520 --> 01:00:07,960
Speaker 2: you would like to plug? Matt from the Atlanta Community

1214
01:00:07,960 --> 01:00:08,560
Speaker 2: Press Collective?

1215
01:00:08,800 --> 01:00:11,400
Speaker 4: Yes, so I am Matt and I work for the

1216
01:00:11,400 --> 01:00:13,440
Speaker 4: Atlantic Community Press Collective. If you want to check out

1217
01:00:13,480 --> 01:00:17,680
Speaker 4: our work, our website is Atlpresscollective dot com. We also

1218
01:00:17,720 --> 01:00:21,760
Speaker 4: do a lot on Twitter. Our handle is at Atlanta

1219
01:00:22,560 --> 01:00:26,200
Speaker 4: Underscore Press, and our Instagram, where we post a lot

1220
01:00:26,200 --> 01:00:28,720
Speaker 4: of our videos, is atl Press Collective.

1221
01:00:29,360 --> 01:00:32,120
Speaker 2: And then you can also donate a solidarity fund, not

1222
01:00:32,360 --> 01:00:34,720
Speaker 2: at the regular solidary fund website. Still I believe it's

1223
01:00:34,760 --> 01:00:37,360
Speaker 2: I believe it's still the National Bail Fund one right.

1224
01:00:37,440 --> 01:00:39,440
Speaker 4: I believe it is still the National Bail Fund until

1225
01:00:39,520 --> 01:00:41,840
Speaker 4: probably until that court case is settled.

1226
01:00:41,880 --> 01:00:42,520
Speaker 3: Got it all right?

1227
01:00:42,720 --> 01:00:45,920
Speaker 2: So yeah, make sure you go to the right site

1228
01:00:46,240 --> 01:00:48,439
Speaker 2: for the for the Act Blue National bil bail fund

1229
01:00:48,480 --> 01:00:52,000
Speaker 2: towards the Atlanta Solidarity Fund. Anyway, So that was the

1230
01:00:52,000 --> 01:00:54,600
Speaker 2: shitty mayor of today, Mayor Andre Dickens. I'll make the

1231
01:00:54,680 --> 01:00:56,600
Speaker 2: joke again. I think it's funny that the previous mayor

1232
01:00:56,640 --> 01:01:00,440
Speaker 2: was named Bottoms, the current mayor is named Dickens. It's Dickens,

1233
01:01:01,040 --> 01:01:04,240
Speaker 2: Dickens Bottoms anyway, no comment. That's the joke that I've

1234
01:01:04,240 --> 01:01:05,880
Speaker 2: made before. I'm going to keep making it until he's

1235
01:01:05,960 --> 01:01:09,320
Speaker 2: until he's no longer mayor. Unless someone else runs for

1236
01:01:09,960 --> 01:01:13,919
Speaker 2: we could do, nor would Dickens Bottom. No never, I'm

1237
01:01:13,920 --> 01:01:16,280
Speaker 2: not even gonna bother joking about that because that would

1238
01:01:16,320 --> 01:01:17,280
Speaker 2: be so, that'd be so.

1239
01:01:17,840 --> 01:01:19,640
Speaker 4: Don't put it in exactly exactly.

1240
01:01:19,720 --> 01:01:21,400
Speaker 3: That doesn't need anyway.

1241
01:01:22,840 --> 01:01:25,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, see you on the other side, Stay safe, stayed interesting.

1242
01:01:25,920 --> 01:01:41,760
Speaker 2: The Week of Action TATA.

1243
01:01:43,080 --> 01:01:46,040
Speaker 8: Hello everyone, Welcome to the podcast. It could happen here.

1244
01:01:46,160 --> 01:01:48,960
Speaker 8: It's me James today and I am joined for a

1245
01:01:49,720 --> 01:01:53,080
Speaker 8: rare example of Daniel Daniel being on the podcast.

1246
01:01:53,280 --> 01:01:56,960
Speaker 9: Yes, well, I'm James, thank you for having me. I'm

1247
01:01:57,000 --> 01:01:59,600
Speaker 9: thrilled to be here, uh to talk with you on

1248
01:01:59,640 --> 01:02:01,840
Speaker 9: the PODCAS cast that I edit every single day.

1249
01:02:02,120 --> 01:02:02,360
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1250
01:02:02,600 --> 01:02:04,560
Speaker 8: Yeah, normally you just hear me, but at this time

1251
01:02:04,600 --> 01:02:08,120
Speaker 8: you get they like the Dan. It's like the subaltant speaks,

1252
01:02:08,120 --> 01:02:11,680
Speaker 8: but it's Daniel. I couldn't fucking I couldn't really go

1253
01:02:11,720 --> 01:02:14,360
Speaker 8: anywhere with that, so I just I just left the

1254
01:02:14,400 --> 01:02:17,120
Speaker 8: two halves of the joke out there, either of them

1255
01:02:17,240 --> 01:02:17,920
Speaker 8: with a partner.

1256
01:02:18,680 --> 01:02:19,200
Speaker 3: Very sad.

1257
01:02:19,640 --> 01:02:23,480
Speaker 8: Yeah, So, Daniel, we're here today to talk about first

1258
01:02:23,560 --> 01:02:26,200
Speaker 8: day kits and the reason we're talking about first Ay

1259
01:02:26,240 --> 01:02:28,560
Speaker 8: kits is because it is Pride Month at the time

1260
01:02:28,600 --> 01:02:31,320
Speaker 8: of recording. That, of course, in the United States, means

1261
01:02:31,320 --> 01:02:36,160
Speaker 8: that people are worried about being murdered by homophobic psychopaths. Unfortunately,

1262
01:02:36,200 --> 01:02:38,800
Speaker 8: so mm hmm. That is uh, that is the world

1263
01:02:38,840 --> 01:02:40,720
Speaker 8: that we live in, and it shouldn't be. It's fucked up,

1264
01:02:41,920 --> 01:02:45,320
Speaker 8: and it hopefully won't be this way forever because you know,

1265
01:02:45,360 --> 01:02:49,400
Speaker 8: all these people are wrong and will die eventually and

1266
01:02:49,920 --> 01:02:53,720
Speaker 8: that will make the world better. But fingers crossed, Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

1267
01:02:53,720 --> 01:02:54,040
Speaker 8: we can.

1268
01:02:54,720 --> 01:02:57,160
Speaker 3: We can hope. I guess maybe they're raising a new

1269
01:02:57,200 --> 01:03:02,320
Speaker 3: generation of Turfs or whatever. I don't think hopefully not.

1270
01:03:02,400 --> 01:03:02,760
Speaker 3: Let's not.

1271
01:03:04,040 --> 01:03:06,680
Speaker 8: Yeah, So I just wanted to talk because I've seen

1272
01:03:06,680 --> 01:03:10,080
Speaker 8: a bunch of people online, like a lot of people

1273
01:03:10,400 --> 01:03:14,120
Speaker 8: who are in the like lgbt QI a community, or

1274
01:03:14,160 --> 01:03:17,600
Speaker 8: who are going to pride just being like, oh fuck

1275
01:03:17,720 --> 01:03:19,880
Speaker 8: like it. Genuinely, I can see why people are very

1276
01:03:19,920 --> 01:03:24,240
Speaker 8: afraid right because violence against queer people is at least

1277
01:03:24,800 --> 01:03:28,400
Speaker 8: seemingly increasing. I'm not going to give you training because

1278
01:03:28,400 --> 01:03:30,880
Speaker 8: this is a podcast and you can't learn first AID

1279
01:03:30,920 --> 01:03:35,640
Speaker 8: on a podcast, and you can't learn it on YouTube either. Really,

1280
01:03:36,520 --> 01:03:39,360
Speaker 8: I wanted to talk briefly about like supplies and then

1281
01:03:39,560 --> 01:03:45,640
Speaker 8: places to get training, because that is very important. I

1282
01:03:45,760 --> 01:03:47,880
Speaker 8: have bought my first ay it that I used for work.

1283
01:03:48,280 --> 01:03:49,800
Speaker 8: I have quite a few that I used for work.

1284
01:03:49,840 --> 01:03:52,000
Speaker 8: Actually I don't like to repack them. And I know

1285
01:03:52,080 --> 01:03:55,000
Speaker 8: that you have bought one that Jeffrey Bezos kindly sent you.

1286
01:03:55,240 --> 01:03:55,960
Speaker 3: Yes, exactly.

1287
01:03:56,080 --> 01:03:56,280
Speaker 5: Yeah.

1288
01:03:56,320 --> 01:04:00,440
Speaker 9: At the height of the you know, the George Floyd protests,

1289
01:04:00,440 --> 01:04:03,160
Speaker 9: et cetera, I was out there in the streets and

1290
01:04:03,320 --> 01:04:05,800
Speaker 9: kind of after observing what was happening in Portland and

1291
01:04:05,840 --> 01:04:09,720
Speaker 9: after you know, listening into and editing it could happen

1292
01:04:09,760 --> 01:04:14,160
Speaker 9: to year episodes and you know what Gear and Robert

1293
01:04:14,240 --> 01:04:19,240
Speaker 9: were covering. It felt, if not necessary, but very prudent

1294
01:04:19,400 --> 01:04:22,440
Speaker 9: to invest in something like this, so that should there

1295
01:04:22,480 --> 01:04:24,480
Speaker 9: be a need to help people in the streets, I

1296
01:04:24,520 --> 01:04:27,600
Speaker 9: was there unable to do so, and whether or not

1297
01:04:27,720 --> 01:04:29,720
Speaker 9: this was a good first aid kit, I think we're

1298
01:04:29,760 --> 01:04:30,840
Speaker 9: going to find out today.

1299
01:04:31,120 --> 01:04:32,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's the aim of the game.

1300
01:04:32,960 --> 01:04:35,280
Speaker 8: I should point out that, like my medical training is

1301
01:04:35,320 --> 01:04:38,240
Speaker 8: pretty basic, right, I'm not that kind of doctor, but

1302
01:04:38,760 --> 01:04:41,240
Speaker 8: I do have a wilderness first responder and a wilderness

1303
01:04:41,240 --> 01:04:44,080
Speaker 8: first aid and to start the bleed training, and I've

1304
01:04:44,080 --> 01:04:48,840
Speaker 8: done CPR training and I've done hostile environment first aid training,

1305
01:04:49,440 --> 01:04:51,280
Speaker 8: so a bunch of stuff which is focused around very

1306
01:04:51,360 --> 01:04:52,919
Speaker 8: very very basic first aid.

1307
01:04:53,000 --> 01:04:53,160
Speaker 3: Right.

1308
01:04:53,200 --> 01:04:56,080
Speaker 8: In all of those cases, it's like make sure the

1309
01:04:56,080 --> 01:04:57,960
Speaker 8: person doesn't die immediately, and then get them to someone

1310
01:04:57,960 --> 01:04:59,480
Speaker 8: who is better trained than you so that they can

1311
01:04:59,480 --> 01:05:02,960
Speaker 8: help them more men, which is like, listen, if you

1312
01:05:02,960 --> 01:05:05,840
Speaker 8: are learning about medical stuff on the podcast hosted by

1313
01:05:05,840 --> 01:05:07,800
Speaker 8: a guy who has a PhD in mon European history,

1314
01:05:07,920 --> 01:05:12,040
Speaker 8: then that that is what you are doing too, right, Like, yes,

1315
01:05:12,560 --> 01:05:13,880
Speaker 8: and we're going to talk about that, because you can

1316
01:05:13,960 --> 01:05:17,240
Speaker 8: for sure fuck someone up if you if you go

1317
01:05:17,360 --> 01:05:19,320
Speaker 8: sort of outside of your scope of knowledge, and that

1318
01:05:20,400 --> 01:05:23,720
Speaker 8: it's I understand the desire to help, but we have

1319
01:05:23,800 --> 01:05:25,240
Speaker 8: to help in the way that it's most helpful.

1320
01:05:25,280 --> 01:05:29,480
Speaker 3: I guess, not do any harm. So yeah, let's go over.

1321
01:05:29,920 --> 01:05:32,000
Speaker 8: Let's let's go over I guess my first aid kit,

1322
01:05:32,280 --> 01:05:34,040
Speaker 8: and then we can we can open yours and see

1323
01:05:34,040 --> 01:05:35,200
Speaker 8: what's the same and what's different.

1324
01:05:35,280 --> 01:05:37,280
Speaker 3: Right, So this is one.

1325
01:05:37,760 --> 01:05:39,320
Speaker 8: I like it because it's small and it fits in

1326
01:05:39,360 --> 01:05:41,080
Speaker 8: the smaller my back, and if I really needed to,

1327
01:05:41,160 --> 01:05:42,800
Speaker 8: I could just like wear a kind of baggy shirt

1328
01:05:42,840 --> 01:05:45,080
Speaker 8: and it wouldn't be too obvious. I also have one

1329
01:05:45,080 --> 01:05:47,200
Speaker 8: that fits around my ankle for times when I really

1330
01:05:47,200 --> 01:05:49,360
Speaker 8: don't want people to know I have it, but that

1331
01:05:49,480 --> 01:05:50,880
Speaker 8: I also want to have it.

1332
01:05:52,240 --> 01:05:54,440
Speaker 3: And then you can wear some sick flared jeans or.

1333
01:05:54,360 --> 01:05:56,800
Speaker 8: Something and people just think you're a trendy kind of

1334
01:05:56,800 --> 01:05:58,600
Speaker 8: guy exactly.

1335
01:05:58,920 --> 01:06:02,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, they'll know. So yeah, in mind, it sort of

1336
01:06:02,280 --> 01:06:02,480
Speaker 3: goes on.

1337
01:06:02,480 --> 01:06:04,000
Speaker 8: It's one of your back and then you can pull

1338
01:06:04,000 --> 01:06:06,120
Speaker 8: it away, right, has a big old red handle. You

1339
01:06:06,120 --> 01:06:09,400
Speaker 8: just put it like that and it comes away. Yeah,

1340
01:06:09,400 --> 01:06:11,960
Speaker 8: it's nice. That's one thing I will say right off

1341
01:06:12,000 --> 01:06:14,680
Speaker 8: the bat is like, I've seen a number of people

1342
01:06:14,680 --> 01:06:15,200
Speaker 8: get hurt.

1343
01:06:15,080 --> 01:06:16,280
Speaker 3: In a number of different situations.

1344
01:06:16,320 --> 01:06:18,840
Speaker 8: I've seen a number of people render first date, including myself,

1345
01:06:19,600 --> 01:06:25,600
Speaker 8: sometimes successfully, sometimes sadly not successfully. And if you're if

1346
01:06:25,640 --> 01:06:28,200
Speaker 8: you have a big bag of shit and then you

1347
01:06:28,240 --> 01:06:30,520
Speaker 8: open your bag of shit and you're just throwing stuff everywhere,

1348
01:06:30,520 --> 01:06:34,600
Speaker 8: Stuff's falling on the ground, it you're that's not helpful, right,

1349
01:06:34,680 --> 01:06:38,960
Speaker 8: like the things that will kill people that are preventable

1350
01:06:40,000 --> 01:06:42,440
Speaker 8: for the most part in and like trauma injuries. Right,

1351
01:06:42,480 --> 01:06:43,960
Speaker 8: Like the stuff that we might see if we're going

1352
01:06:44,000 --> 01:06:47,280
Speaker 8: to a pride, if we're attending a protest, and if

1353
01:06:47,320 --> 01:06:51,560
Speaker 8: we fucking work in a school in America, right is

1354
01:06:51,680 --> 01:06:56,800
Speaker 8: largely like like attention umothora, so a whole sucking chest

1355
01:06:56,840 --> 01:07:01,960
Speaker 8: wound and losing blood and losing blood is I believe

1356
01:07:02,120 --> 01:07:05,160
Speaker 8: that the sort of most common preventable cause of death

1357
01:07:05,200 --> 01:07:06,280
Speaker 8: in intrauma injuries.

1358
01:07:06,360 --> 01:07:09,040
Speaker 3: So most of us is going to focus around losing blood.

1359
01:07:09,120 --> 01:07:13,480
Speaker 8: And that's where tyber training called stop the bleed comes in, right,

1360
01:07:13,480 --> 01:07:15,640
Speaker 8: I believe it's stop the Bleed dot org. You can

1361
01:07:15,680 --> 01:07:18,480
Speaker 8: google free stop the Bleed classes near me. I've previously

1362
01:07:18,480 --> 01:07:21,160
Speaker 8: posted a link to where you can put in your postcode,

1363
01:07:21,480 --> 01:07:26,240
Speaker 8: zip code and find free stop the Bleed training near you.

1364
01:07:27,640 --> 01:07:29,680
Speaker 8: And again that will cost you no money at all

1365
01:07:29,800 --> 01:07:33,600
Speaker 8: cost you about half a day of your time. Oh great, yeah, yeah,

1366
01:07:33,080 --> 01:07:35,360
Speaker 8: it's a great thing actually, Like it's one of the

1367
01:07:35,360 --> 01:07:38,680
Speaker 8: few things that you know, the municipal governments of various

1368
01:07:38,720 --> 01:07:41,040
Speaker 8: things put on, well if there isn't one near you.

1369
01:07:41,200 --> 01:07:44,000
Speaker 8: I've heard the people hitting up fire departments and then

1370
01:07:44,080 --> 01:07:46,960
Speaker 8: getting them to put one on if they can demonstrate

1371
01:07:47,000 --> 01:07:50,560
Speaker 8: some interest because it is very basic. And most fire

1372
01:07:50,600 --> 01:07:52,560
Speaker 8: departments will have paramedics, right, which is a sort of

1373
01:07:52,560 --> 01:07:55,400
Speaker 8: step up from an empty So those folks can help

1374
01:07:55,840 --> 01:08:00,240
Speaker 8: teach those things very well. So what is in here

1375
01:08:00,240 --> 01:08:01,760
Speaker 8: for stopping the bleed? And I'm not going to teach

1376
01:08:01,800 --> 01:08:04,400
Speaker 8: you how to use it because that's what someone else.

1377
01:08:04,280 --> 01:08:05,560
Speaker 3: Does, someone else's job.

1378
01:08:05,880 --> 01:08:09,280
Speaker 8: Yeah, So before I open it up, this is a tornicue.

1379
01:08:10,080 --> 01:08:15,200
Speaker 8: Some people will pronounce it incorrectly. They will say that

1380
01:08:15,240 --> 01:08:19,240
Speaker 8: those people are with that hard t yeah yeah, yeah,

1381
01:08:19,240 --> 01:08:20,960
Speaker 8: the American way.

1382
01:08:21,040 --> 01:08:21,280
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1383
01:08:21,360 --> 01:08:24,800
Speaker 8: So it's what this guy is is is it? It's

1384
01:08:24,960 --> 01:08:28,559
Speaker 8: for like bleeding your limbs, arterial bleeding your limbs? Right,

1385
01:08:28,600 --> 01:08:31,640
Speaker 8: it just goes around since it down and I'm not

1386
01:08:31,640 --> 01:08:33,200
Speaker 8: telling you how to use it, and then you tighten

1387
01:08:33,200 --> 01:08:36,080
Speaker 8: it up, right. The things I want to emphasize about

1388
01:08:36,120 --> 01:08:39,280
Speaker 8: this are one the type of tornicae that is so

1389
01:08:39,360 --> 01:08:42,760
Speaker 8: this is called a combat application tornice. It's made by

1390
01:08:42,800 --> 01:08:47,080
Speaker 8: a company called North American Rescue. There are a few

1391
01:08:47,280 --> 01:08:50,400
Speaker 8: other ones that I would use. The other one I have,

1392
01:08:50,439 --> 01:08:53,559
Speaker 8: I think is the Softy Wide and I have some

1393
01:08:53,720 --> 01:08:58,720
Speaker 8: of the REVX med ratcheting tornices as well. They use

1394
01:08:58,760 --> 01:09:01,120
Speaker 8: like a boa. If people have used ski boots cycling shoes,

1395
01:09:01,120 --> 01:09:04,400
Speaker 8: they'll be familiar with a bone call. The one to

1396
01:09:04,439 --> 01:09:06,439
Speaker 8: buy is the one that you use when you do

1397
01:09:06,479 --> 01:09:09,519
Speaker 8: your training right, and it's going to be a sam

1398
01:09:09,560 --> 01:09:10,200
Speaker 8: as another one.

1399
01:09:10,439 --> 01:09:10,920
Speaker 3: There's another.

1400
01:09:11,280 --> 01:09:13,880
Speaker 8: These are all the tonques you want to buy if

1401
01:09:13,960 --> 01:09:17,240
Speaker 8: you're sort of if you're confused about which one you used.

1402
01:09:17,960 --> 01:09:20,560
Speaker 8: The ones that are approved by the t trouble C.

1403
01:09:21,160 --> 01:09:25,960
Speaker 8: It's a Committee on Tactical Casualty Care, Tactical casualt com.

1404
01:09:26,160 --> 01:09:26,639
Speaker 3: Something like that.

1405
01:09:27,760 --> 01:09:29,880
Speaker 8: Those guys have tested them extensively right to see which

1406
01:09:29,920 --> 01:09:33,000
Speaker 8: wants work, which wants don't. It is this is not

1407
01:09:33,120 --> 01:09:35,719
Speaker 8: somewhere to save money. That they they are about twenty

1408
01:09:35,720 --> 01:09:39,160
Speaker 8: three twenty five bucks. You find them on sale, it's not. Yeah,

1409
01:09:39,240 --> 01:09:41,519
Speaker 8: I mean, if if that's a big expense for you,

1410
01:09:41,560 --> 01:09:45,559
Speaker 8: then I understand uh, and it's it's okay not to

1411
01:09:45,720 --> 01:09:47,840
Speaker 8: have one if that's a big expense, or to save

1412
01:09:47,920 --> 01:09:52,320
Speaker 8: up and wait, like, that's okay, it's better than using

1413
01:09:52,880 --> 01:09:57,280
Speaker 8: an improvised tornic care. Right, there are not very many

1414
01:09:57,520 --> 01:10:01,120
Speaker 8: very good studies at least that I could find on

1415
01:10:01,920 --> 01:10:05,479
Speaker 8: improvised tornic k's. Someplaces still teaching improvises tornic K, like

1416
01:10:05,600 --> 01:10:07,760
Speaker 8: I've taken a Woman's First Responder where they taught it.

1417
01:10:08,960 --> 01:10:13,000
Speaker 8: I've also seen one not work, and I will tell

1418
01:10:13,000 --> 01:10:16,120
Speaker 8: you that's not an experience that I want to ever

1419
01:10:16,160 --> 01:10:19,200
Speaker 8: have again in my life, and I don't think it's

1420
01:10:19,240 --> 01:10:20,920
Speaker 8: one i'd like you all to share with me. So

1421
01:10:22,240 --> 01:10:23,880
Speaker 8: I would suggest if you're going to be using a

1422
01:10:23,920 --> 01:10:26,200
Speaker 8: tornic K, then then buying a cat is kind of

1423
01:10:26,200 --> 01:10:29,320
Speaker 8: the standard. I wouldn't buy it from Jeffrey Bezos because

1424
01:10:29,880 --> 01:10:34,480
Speaker 8: this Amazon dot com is a website that he owns. Believe, yeah,

1425
01:10:34,640 --> 01:10:38,640
Speaker 8: space cowboy Jeffrey. And so the reason why is that

1426
01:10:38,760 --> 01:10:41,880
Speaker 8: all of these different there are knockoffs, right, there are

1427
01:10:41,880 --> 01:10:45,280
Speaker 8: fakes of this. They go in different they go in

1428
01:10:45,320 --> 01:10:47,160
Speaker 8: the same bin from what I'm told, and then the

1429
01:10:47,160 --> 01:10:49,439
Speaker 8: person who's a picker just maybe grabs one. And sometimes

1430
01:10:49,479 --> 01:10:51,479
Speaker 8: you can end up with a fake. What can happen

1431
01:10:51,520 --> 01:10:55,040
Speaker 8: with a fake is the strap can break or the windless.

1432
01:10:55,040 --> 01:10:57,280
Speaker 8: So the windless is the guy that tightens it can break.

1433
01:10:57,520 --> 01:11:00,400
Speaker 8: Ah Okay, either of those things go to lead to

1434
01:11:00,400 --> 01:11:02,599
Speaker 8: the tornicue failing. Right, it's not going to apply enough pressure,

1435
01:11:03,520 --> 01:11:06,080
Speaker 8: and that's going to It could do a number of

1436
01:11:06,120 --> 01:11:07,879
Speaker 8: things right. It could just fail to start the bleeding,

1437
01:11:08,320 --> 01:11:10,680
Speaker 8: depending on if you've misidentified the bleeding. You could give

1438
01:11:10,680 --> 01:11:13,880
Speaker 8: someone a compartment syndrome or something. It's going to be

1439
01:11:13,920 --> 01:11:16,040
Speaker 8: very painful. It's going to be very painful anyway, and

1440
01:11:16,120 --> 01:11:18,040
Speaker 8: you'll learn that in your course which you're going to take.

1441
01:11:18,120 --> 01:11:20,360
Speaker 8: You're not gonna not going to just listen to me

1442
01:11:20,400 --> 01:11:21,560
Speaker 8: on the podcast.

1443
01:11:23,400 --> 01:11:23,800
Speaker 3: Thank you.

1444
01:11:24,840 --> 01:11:27,360
Speaker 8: And so you do want a real one, and so

1445
01:11:27,400 --> 01:11:29,160
Speaker 8: the easiest way to obtain a real one is to

1446
01:11:29,160 --> 01:11:34,120
Speaker 8: buy one from a reliable source. Rescue Essentials, Chinook Medical

1447
01:11:34,320 --> 01:11:36,840
Speaker 8: and North American Rescuer or people who I've worked with.

1448
01:11:37,200 --> 01:11:39,000
Speaker 8: I've said at Rescue Essential sent me a bunch of

1449
01:11:39,000 --> 01:11:42,240
Speaker 8: shit before I went on a work trip. They it

1450
01:11:42,280 --> 01:11:44,360
Speaker 8: was lots of it was outdated or the open box

1451
01:11:44,439 --> 01:11:45,960
Speaker 8: or something. And I was able to donate that to

1452
01:11:46,439 --> 01:11:49,479
Speaker 8: fixes and journalists I was working with. I thought that

1453
01:11:49,520 --> 01:11:52,080
Speaker 8: was very cool of them. Cool they offer a stop

1454
01:11:52,120 --> 01:11:54,000
Speaker 8: the Bleed month discount. I think stop the Bleed month

1455
01:11:54,080 --> 01:11:55,679
Speaker 8: is May, so we might be out of that now.

1456
01:11:55,760 --> 01:11:58,479
Speaker 8: But those are real places where you can buy these

1457
01:11:58,520 --> 01:12:02,040
Speaker 8: tonic caes and know that you're not getting a fake one, right, So.

1458
01:12:02,000 --> 01:12:04,680
Speaker 3: You'll provide links to that in the description of the place.

1459
01:12:04,479 --> 01:12:06,080
Speaker 8: We will yeap, yeah, yeah, I'll make sure that those

1460
01:12:06,080 --> 01:12:10,320
Speaker 8: are there for you to click. So's there are different generations,

1461
01:12:10,960 --> 01:12:13,759
Speaker 8: like I think generation seven is what I have. Generation

1462
01:12:13,840 --> 01:12:18,439
Speaker 8: six is also fine. You probably won't find one sold

1463
01:12:18,479 --> 01:12:19,800
Speaker 8: before that. On the off chance you do, I would

1464
01:12:19,800 --> 01:12:22,760
Speaker 8: just stick to a generation seven or six. And it

1465
01:12:22,760 --> 01:12:24,960
Speaker 8: does have a little timestamps, so you want little sharpie

1466
01:12:25,000 --> 01:12:28,479
Speaker 8: as well to write the time on. That's more important.

1467
01:12:29,479 --> 01:12:31,679
Speaker 8: It's possible that, like you might put this on somebody.

1468
01:12:31,720 --> 01:12:33,160
Speaker 8: So you're at a Pride event and there is something

1469
01:12:33,240 --> 01:12:35,600
Speaker 8: terrible happening, like a mass shooter, and you might be

1470
01:12:35,720 --> 01:12:38,320
Speaker 8: there for a while. Let's say you're in Texas and

1471
01:12:38,320 --> 01:12:42,720
Speaker 8: all your cops are fucking cowards. Then unfortunately, if you

1472
01:12:42,720 --> 01:12:44,639
Speaker 8: were able to render aid someone and then you both

1473
01:12:44,680 --> 01:12:46,200
Speaker 8: of you were able to not get hurt any further.

1474
01:12:46,240 --> 01:12:47,920
Speaker 8: You could be there for a while. Then it would

1475
01:12:47,920 --> 01:12:50,160
Speaker 8: be relevant what time the tornic ga is applied. Normally,

1476
01:12:50,479 --> 01:12:52,040
Speaker 8: you know, in the US, we would hope that you

1477
01:12:52,040 --> 01:12:55,479
Speaker 8: would have medical attention pretty quickly because you know, that

1478
01:12:55,640 --> 01:12:57,920
Speaker 8: threat would have been stopped and then EMS would be

1479
01:12:57,960 --> 01:13:00,880
Speaker 8: able to provide help. But that that's where the time

1480
01:13:00,920 --> 01:13:03,000
Speaker 8: thing comes in, right, And so you want to have

1481
01:13:03,000 --> 01:13:04,720
Speaker 8: a tiny sharpie when you have a tornic in and

1482
01:13:04,840 --> 01:13:07,280
Speaker 8: you can get. North American Rescue actually sell little tiny,

1483
01:13:07,280 --> 01:13:09,120
Speaker 8: half sized sharpies and I shove them in the pouch

1484
01:13:09,280 --> 01:13:11,240
Speaker 8: with the torn ue and then there they are, and

1485
01:13:11,280 --> 01:13:14,439
Speaker 8: then you always have a sharpie. So we go inside

1486
01:13:14,479 --> 01:13:14,880
Speaker 8: there it is.

1487
01:13:14,920 --> 01:13:19,639
Speaker 3: Look at that. Okay, Hey, the little guy's a cute. Yeah,

1488
01:13:19,760 --> 01:13:22,240
Speaker 3: isn't it gorgeous? Yeah? We love a little guy here,

1489
01:13:22,640 --> 01:13:23,799
Speaker 3: credit card size sharpie.

1490
01:13:23,800 --> 01:13:24,320
Speaker 4: It's perfect.

1491
01:13:24,600 --> 01:13:28,360
Speaker 8: Yeah, yeah, for those who are not danel exactly with

1492
01:13:28,479 --> 01:13:29,520
Speaker 8: a pinky sharpie.

1493
01:13:29,720 --> 01:13:30,880
Speaker 9: And I will do I will do the part of

1494
01:13:30,920 --> 01:13:33,320
Speaker 9: contextualizing for the for the non video audience.

1495
01:13:33,439 --> 01:13:33,960
Speaker 3: Thank you, Daniel.

1496
01:13:34,040 --> 01:13:36,599
Speaker 8: Yeah, of course, paint a picture with words if you will.

1497
01:13:38,000 --> 01:13:39,600
Speaker 8: So we're going through this now, if we if we

1498
01:13:39,640 --> 01:13:42,960
Speaker 8: focus on bleeding again, right, there's a couple of different

1499
01:13:43,439 --> 01:13:44,439
Speaker 8: dressings that you have.

1500
01:13:44,560 --> 01:13:46,200
Speaker 3: So again I'm not going to.

1501
01:13:46,120 --> 01:13:48,840
Speaker 8: Tell you what to use for wear, but you would

1502
01:13:48,920 --> 01:13:51,160
Speaker 8: use like the tornique on one part of your body.

1503
01:13:52,040 --> 01:13:53,920
Speaker 8: The other things you're going to use would be a

1504
01:13:53,960 --> 01:13:57,160
Speaker 8: pressure dressing. So you can get a ton of different

1505
01:13:57,160 --> 01:14:00,559
Speaker 8: pressure dressings. I like the Olays ones. Oh well a ees,

1506
01:14:02,400 --> 01:14:04,960
Speaker 8: but it doesn't hugely matter that those ones just have

1507
01:14:05,000 --> 01:14:06,479
Speaker 8: a little bit of gorez that you can pull out

1508
01:14:06,560 --> 01:14:08,040
Speaker 8: so you can pack a wound too.

1509
01:14:07,920 --> 01:14:08,200
Speaker 3: And that.

1510
01:14:10,240 --> 01:14:11,960
Speaker 8: Sometimes if you do so, if you get like a

1511
01:14:12,040 --> 01:14:14,679
Speaker 8: nice training, they might let you practice packing some wounds,

1512
01:14:14,680 --> 01:14:17,280
Speaker 8: so they might have like a little fake wound that

1513
01:14:17,320 --> 01:14:20,360
Speaker 8: you can pack and yeah, so that you'll learn a

1514
01:14:20,360 --> 01:14:24,320
Speaker 8: lot about like how to do that there. And so

1515
01:14:24,840 --> 01:14:27,360
Speaker 8: those allowed. Some of the other ones don't. But honestly,

1516
01:14:27,439 --> 01:14:32,200
Speaker 8: like sometimes they're called Israeli bandages. They will not like

1517
01:14:32,720 --> 01:14:35,880
Speaker 8: colonize Palestine if you you know, put them in your.

1518
01:14:35,920 --> 01:14:36,479
Speaker 3: First gate kit.

1519
01:14:37,479 --> 01:14:40,880
Speaker 8: But that that's what this guy is, right, And sometimes

1520
01:14:40,880 --> 01:14:43,479
Speaker 8: they have a lot of packaging on, so you want

1521
01:14:43,479 --> 01:14:44,920
Speaker 8: to take them down to kind of the last layer

1522
01:14:44,960 --> 01:14:48,160
Speaker 8: of packaging. None of this ship is sterile, right, None

1523
01:14:48,160 --> 01:14:51,160
Speaker 8: of this stuff is. Again it's not supposed to be

1524
01:14:51,280 --> 01:14:54,080
Speaker 8: in for a long time, right, So it's so it's

1525
01:14:54,080 --> 01:14:56,800
Speaker 8: okay to have that like either just bear or in

1526
01:14:56,840 --> 01:14:58,080
Speaker 8: its first layer of packaging.

1527
01:14:59,439 --> 01:15:01,799
Speaker 9: I want to get actualize one thing from a video perspective,

1528
01:15:01,880 --> 01:15:04,080
Speaker 9: just for everybody listening. As James is showing me his

1529
01:15:04,080 --> 01:15:06,720
Speaker 9: first aid kit, it looks like every item that he's

1530
01:15:06,760 --> 01:15:10,120
Speaker 9: talking about other than the tournique is individually wrapped and

1531
01:15:10,200 --> 01:15:13,479
Speaker 9: also strapped down. Yeah, it looks like I would say,

1532
01:15:13,479 --> 01:15:17,040
Speaker 9: about seven or eight individual items within there, and they

1533
01:15:17,080 --> 01:15:20,000
Speaker 9: all have their own pocket and they're all strapped down.

1534
01:15:20,120 --> 01:15:24,000
Speaker 9: And that's something that immediately looking at mine, I basically have,

1535
01:15:24,240 --> 01:15:27,200
Speaker 9: you know, small plastic baggies that I will hold up

1536
01:15:27,200 --> 01:15:30,000
Speaker 9: to James right now, small plastic baggies of just like

1537
01:15:30,120 --> 01:15:33,240
Speaker 9: a lot of loose shits. And it's just way too

1538
01:15:33,320 --> 01:15:35,599
Speaker 9: much stuff in here, I would say, of what I

1539
01:15:35,640 --> 01:15:38,519
Speaker 9: see in James's bag versus mine, I think I mean,

1540
01:15:38,600 --> 01:15:40,680
Speaker 9: first of all, there's stuff missing, Like there's no turnique

1541
01:15:40,680 --> 01:15:43,240
Speaker 9: in here. There's a lot of different gauze things, and

1542
01:15:43,320 --> 01:15:45,639
Speaker 9: there's but there's you know, in mind, I have like

1543
01:15:46,000 --> 01:15:50,599
Speaker 9: seven hundred different bandages, and like there's aspirin in here,

1544
01:15:50,960 --> 01:15:53,200
Speaker 9: and like some things that feel like they're more for

1545
01:15:53,320 --> 01:15:56,560
Speaker 9: like a camping trip than they are really like handling

1546
01:15:56,600 --> 01:15:58,760
Speaker 9: a first aid scenario in which you need to save

1547
01:15:58,840 --> 01:16:02,280
Speaker 9: someone's life. So one piece of advice that I'm getting

1548
01:16:02,320 --> 01:16:04,800
Speaker 9: from James as he shares this, is that you know,

1549
01:16:05,120 --> 01:16:07,400
Speaker 9: what's important to carry around is the stuff that is

1550
01:16:07,400 --> 01:16:10,120
Speaker 9: going to give you immediate access to the ability to

1551
01:16:10,320 --> 01:16:13,720
Speaker 9: save someone's life. So think about that as you are

1552
01:16:13,800 --> 01:16:16,760
Speaker 9: like packing your bag. What I have here that I

1553
01:16:16,800 --> 01:16:19,439
Speaker 9: bought online, that I'm still glad that I have is

1554
01:16:19,479 --> 01:16:22,760
Speaker 9: basically a collection of a bunch of different miscellaneous first

1555
01:16:22,800 --> 01:16:27,200
Speaker 9: aid stuff rather than a very stripped down specific list

1556
01:16:27,240 --> 01:16:29,720
Speaker 9: of items that I can use to save someone's life

1557
01:16:29,720 --> 01:16:30,879
Speaker 9: in an emergency scenario.

1558
01:16:31,280 --> 01:16:34,680
Speaker 8: Yes, excellent point, and you can see them all right

1559
01:16:34,720 --> 01:16:38,040
Speaker 8: when you open this guy. This guy is also like sigh,

1560
01:16:38,160 --> 01:16:40,120
Speaker 8: such that I can pull it off, pop it on

1561
01:16:40,160 --> 01:16:42,599
Speaker 8: the floor, open it up, have my workspace in front

1562
01:16:42,600 --> 01:16:45,760
Speaker 8: of me. If there's anything I'm not confident doing, if

1563
01:16:46,200 --> 01:16:50,200
Speaker 8: like when horrible things happen and people are bleeding you,

1564
01:16:50,479 --> 01:16:54,000
Speaker 8: you do not in that time gain skills right at

1565
01:16:54,040 --> 01:16:58,400
Speaker 8: that moment, speaking from like more experience than I would

1566
01:16:58,439 --> 01:17:01,880
Speaker 8: like to have. If people are in a really bad

1567
01:17:01,920 --> 01:17:04,160
Speaker 8: way in front of you. It's not a fun time,

1568
01:17:04,280 --> 01:17:06,759
Speaker 8: and you get scared and you might panic. That's okay,

1569
01:17:06,880 --> 01:17:09,720
Speaker 8: that happens to everyone. People aren't supposed to see their ship,

1570
01:17:10,080 --> 01:17:11,760
Speaker 8: and if it, certainly, if it's your first time seeing,

1571
01:17:11,760 --> 01:17:13,880
Speaker 8: it's not unreasonable at all to freak out and not

1572
01:17:13,960 --> 01:17:15,840
Speaker 8: know what to do. You can just hold any of

1573
01:17:15,840 --> 01:17:17,519
Speaker 8: this ship up, say hey I have a tornic uit.

1574
01:17:17,800 --> 01:17:20,679
Speaker 8: Hey I have a pressure dressing, and someone who who's

1575
01:17:20,720 --> 01:17:22,519
Speaker 8: at that time is able to help, can take that.

1576
01:17:22,560 --> 01:17:24,960
Speaker 8: You know what they're doing, they can help. So it's

1577
01:17:25,000 --> 01:17:27,720
Speaker 8: totally fine just to have this ship. And if you

1578
01:17:27,720 --> 01:17:29,040
Speaker 8: don't know how to use it, you know, don't go

1579
01:17:29,120 --> 01:17:32,000
Speaker 8: beyond your scope of knowledge. But just you have that

1580
01:17:32,040 --> 01:17:33,920
Speaker 8: ship and you can provide it someone else, that's fine.

1581
01:17:34,760 --> 01:17:37,680
Speaker 8: So yeah, everything's in little elastic bands. I've got this

1582
01:17:37,720 --> 01:17:40,840
Speaker 8: stuff which is called quick clot And we've talked a

1583
01:17:40,880 --> 01:17:44,320
Speaker 8: lot of the podcasts recently about indigenous medical technologies.

1584
01:17:44,479 --> 01:17:44,920
Speaker 7: This is an.

1585
01:17:44,920 --> 01:17:48,400
Speaker 8: Example of one, right, So it's using I think kalin.

1586
01:17:48,560 --> 01:17:50,920
Speaker 8: There's some that use kalin, some that use something that

1587
01:17:50,920 --> 01:17:53,320
Speaker 8: came from crabshells, but this is this is an indigenous

1588
01:17:53,600 --> 01:17:57,679
Speaker 8: medical technology that now is sort of it's been refined

1589
01:17:58,080 --> 01:18:02,120
Speaker 8: over time. This just contains a thing that stops it

1590
01:18:02,160 --> 01:18:05,160
Speaker 8: helps blood to clotch. Hemostatic agent. Right, so when you're

1591
01:18:05,520 --> 01:18:08,719
Speaker 8: packing a wound, you could use this first. This would

1592
01:18:08,720 --> 01:18:09,879
Speaker 8: help with blood clotting.

1593
01:18:10,040 --> 01:18:10,200
Speaker 3: Right.

1594
01:18:10,439 --> 01:18:13,519
Speaker 8: It's also the type I have is detectable on X rays,

1595
01:18:13,520 --> 01:18:16,120
Speaker 8: which helps a lot. There are some older types which

1596
01:18:16,120 --> 01:18:20,559
Speaker 8: are powders. Those are probably best avoided. And you want

1597
01:18:20,600 --> 01:18:24,280
Speaker 8: the gauze that is impregnated with the hemostatic agent if

1598
01:18:24,280 --> 01:18:27,479
Speaker 8: you can. This stuff got really pricey recently, Like I

1599
01:18:27,520 --> 01:18:29,960
Speaker 8: think the best price I've seen for this is thirty

1600
01:18:30,000 --> 01:18:33,040
Speaker 8: five bucks. Oh wow, So yeah, this guy is going

1601
01:18:33,080 --> 01:18:33,920
Speaker 8: to cost you the most.

1602
01:18:34,560 --> 01:18:35,720
Speaker 3: Do you have an idea why that is?

1603
01:18:36,080 --> 01:18:37,479
Speaker 8: I think a lot of people probably bought it in

1604
01:18:37,479 --> 01:18:40,040
Speaker 8: twenty twenty. Might be part of it. Maybe it's some

1605
01:18:40,160 --> 01:18:41,640
Speaker 8: kind of supply chain thing. I don't know if you

1606
01:18:41,680 --> 01:18:46,840
Speaker 8: know where they get the ingredients from. But they just

1607
01:18:46,880 --> 01:18:49,840
Speaker 8: went up in price a lot link Like a lot

1608
01:18:49,880 --> 01:18:53,320
Speaker 8: of people were sort of reaching out about, hey, why

1609
01:18:53,400 --> 01:18:54,400
Speaker 8: is this shit so expensive?

1610
01:18:54,600 --> 01:18:56,200
Speaker 3: Sure, I don't know, but.

1611
01:18:56,720 --> 01:18:59,120
Speaker 8: It's not like one hundred percent necessary, but it is

1612
01:18:59,320 --> 01:19:01,840
Speaker 8: very helpful thing and it can make a difference in

1613
01:19:01,880 --> 01:19:06,120
Speaker 8: some cases. Right, So that's the hemostatic gauze. But else

1614
01:19:06,120 --> 01:19:08,559
Speaker 8: I've gotten here as a pair of trauma shares. That's

1615
01:19:08,720 --> 01:19:12,559
Speaker 8: just if you need to remove someone's clothing to access

1616
01:19:12,560 --> 01:19:16,040
Speaker 8: a wound, and that is kind of important. So for instance,

1617
01:19:16,040 --> 01:19:19,439
Speaker 8: I was doing a training once and I prefer to

1618
01:19:19,640 --> 01:19:23,599
Speaker 8: speak about those things. So like where a guy was

1619
01:19:23,760 --> 01:19:27,320
Speaker 8: presented to us with gunshot wound, and like, if you

1620
01:19:27,400 --> 01:19:31,400
Speaker 8: don't rip off his browsers like this, you know, if

1621
01:19:31,400 --> 01:19:34,080
Speaker 8: someone's been shot and you're there helping them again, like

1622
01:19:34,120 --> 01:19:35,840
Speaker 8: if you're not comfortable doing this, you haven't done the

1623
01:19:35,880 --> 01:19:37,960
Speaker 8: training and don't be just ripping off of the strangers clothes.

1624
01:19:38,439 --> 01:19:45,240
Speaker 8: That's weird in general. Yeah, yeah, there comes a yes. Yeah.

1625
01:19:45,280 --> 01:19:48,280
Speaker 8: So like and they had this cool kind of thing

1626
01:19:48,320 --> 01:19:51,200
Speaker 8: around his leg that bled like he had like two wounds,

1627
01:19:51,200 --> 01:19:53,519
Speaker 8: sort of pumping out blood. It's like a cool kind

1628
01:19:53,560 --> 01:19:57,639
Speaker 8: of bleeding simulator. So but yeah, bullets will do crazy

1629
01:19:57,640 --> 01:20:00,320
Speaker 8: ship and they'll go in one part of your leg

1630
01:20:00,320 --> 01:20:01,840
Speaker 8: and hit the bone abouts around and go out in

1631
01:20:01,840 --> 01:20:03,639
Speaker 8: fact the other. But they don't always travel in straight lines.

1632
01:20:03,640 --> 01:20:07,840
Speaker 8: They're not laser beams. So by exposing their wound, you

1633
01:20:07,840 --> 01:20:11,519
Speaker 8: can sometimes see the exit wound, and so you'll know

1634
01:20:11,560 --> 01:20:13,400
Speaker 8: that there are two wounds, right yeah, depending on how

1635
01:20:13,400 --> 01:20:15,280
Speaker 8: you're going to treat it. You know you're gonna pack it,

1636
01:20:15,320 --> 01:20:18,160
Speaker 8: you're gonna put a torn key on it. But that

1637
01:20:18,160 --> 01:20:20,840
Speaker 8: that will that's what these are for. You can also

1638
01:20:20,840 --> 01:20:22,360
Speaker 8: get things which are called like I think it's called

1639
01:20:22,360 --> 01:20:29,759
Speaker 8: a clothing knife. I actually keep one into the belt

1640
01:20:29,760 --> 01:20:32,280
Speaker 8: of my my plate carrier that I used to work,

1641
01:20:32,439 --> 01:20:34,360
Speaker 8: just so that it's like right here, and it's the

1642
01:20:34,400 --> 01:20:36,280
Speaker 8: same place I keep my diving knife, so then I

1643
01:20:36,320 --> 01:20:40,240
Speaker 8: know it's there. And what it does is these are

1644
01:20:40,240 --> 01:20:41,880
Speaker 8: a handy thing to have in your truck to.

1645
01:20:43,600 --> 01:20:45,559
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, you've seen it.

1646
01:20:45,640 --> 01:20:49,559
Speaker 8: So it's a contained blade, right. I like this little

1647
01:20:49,600 --> 01:20:53,240
Speaker 8: chat because in addition to the contained blade, it has

1648
01:20:53,240 --> 01:20:55,080
Speaker 8: a little glass breaker.

1649
01:20:55,439 --> 01:20:57,840
Speaker 9: Yes, I say, we have one in the car, so

1650
01:20:57,880 --> 01:20:59,439
Speaker 9: it's like a scene. Some people might not as a

1651
01:20:59,439 --> 01:21:02,519
Speaker 9: sea belt cut yes, yeah, spell cutter, and usually on

1652
01:21:02,560 --> 01:21:04,320
Speaker 9: the other side, like you said, they have a glass breaker.

1653
01:21:04,479 --> 01:21:06,320
Speaker 9: So but that is a much more contained one and

1654
01:21:06,320 --> 01:21:07,680
Speaker 9: that looks nice. The one in my car is like

1655
01:21:07,680 --> 01:21:09,679
Speaker 9: the size of a small hammer because it's like meant

1656
01:21:09,720 --> 01:21:11,479
Speaker 9: to be like you know, give you the forest to

1657
01:21:11,560 --> 01:21:13,320
Speaker 9: hold it and snack of window, but also the kind

1658
01:21:13,320 --> 01:21:15,240
Speaker 9: of thing that is super useful. I think everybody should

1659
01:21:15,240 --> 01:21:15,920
Speaker 9: have one in their car.

1660
01:21:16,240 --> 01:21:17,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, you can put on your keyring even right.

1661
01:21:17,880 --> 01:21:20,880
Speaker 8: This is the size of like a like a match

1662
01:21:20,920 --> 01:21:23,479
Speaker 8: box or it's like the size of the key fob.

1663
01:21:23,560 --> 01:21:25,599
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah. If you have a newer vehicle than

1664
01:21:25,640 --> 01:21:30,040
Speaker 3: I do, then I didn't mean to be car classes here.

1665
01:21:30,120 --> 01:21:34,479
Speaker 8: Yeah, yeah, it's okay, Min's approaching classic status. But yeah,

1666
01:21:34,760 --> 01:21:37,759
Speaker 8: we'll we'll put a link on the on the website

1667
01:21:37,760 --> 01:21:40,320
Speaker 8: for this little chap as well. We're not like, we're

1668
01:21:40,360 --> 01:21:43,639
Speaker 8: not fucking getting affiliate revenue from that weirdness. Guys, We're

1669
01:21:43,680 --> 01:21:44,240
Speaker 8: just trying to.

1670
01:21:44,320 --> 01:21:44,840
Speaker 3: Help you out.

1671
01:21:45,840 --> 01:21:47,560
Speaker 8: Nice thing about this is like, it's quite hard to

1672
01:21:47,600 --> 01:21:50,240
Speaker 8: stab someone with trauma sheares because they've got this little

1673
01:21:51,439 --> 01:21:53,920
Speaker 8: up on the bottom. But it can be quite a

1674
01:21:53,920 --> 01:21:57,320
Speaker 8: lot of chopping and things. Right, this guy, you can whoop.

1675
01:21:58,240 --> 01:22:01,280
Speaker 8: So these probably also cheaper and you won't end up

1676
01:22:01,360 --> 01:22:04,280
Speaker 8: using them as scissors and getting them blunt. So that

1677
01:22:04,360 --> 01:22:07,120
Speaker 8: is that is my little getting people's clothes off. And

1678
01:22:07,160 --> 01:22:10,000
Speaker 8: then the last one. I have a couple of burned

1679
01:22:10,080 --> 01:22:12,840
Speaker 8: dressings in here. That's just because so many people got

1680
01:22:12,880 --> 01:22:18,640
Speaker 8: burned in twenty twenty pro from me though, Yeah, it

1681
01:22:18,680 --> 01:22:20,800
Speaker 8: would be. So if someone shoots something out, you don't

1682
01:22:20,800 --> 01:22:23,240
Speaker 8: pick that shit up, don't make it up, just don't.

1683
01:22:23,640 --> 01:22:28,760
Speaker 8: Like in my prepping, I got fire resistant gloves. I

1684
01:22:28,800 --> 01:22:31,120
Speaker 8: got like, I got gloves that were treated for like

1685
01:22:31,200 --> 01:22:33,000
Speaker 8: I don't reme it's like five hundred degrees or something

1686
01:22:33,080 --> 01:22:35,120
Speaker 8: like that in the event that I needed to throw

1687
01:22:35,160 --> 01:22:38,040
Speaker 8: back a gas canister. But I think I was. I mean,

1688
01:22:38,320 --> 01:22:41,200
Speaker 8: I was way too rambo about the whole thing because

1689
01:22:41,240 --> 01:22:43,559
Speaker 8: I still have not encountered a gas grenade once yet.

1690
01:22:43,600 --> 01:22:47,599
Speaker 8: So yeahs crossed, But I mean I don't know, I'm down.

1691
01:22:47,680 --> 01:22:50,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, maybe I'm ready just get him. Yeah yeah, yeah, Dave,

1692
01:22:51,160 --> 01:22:52,719
Speaker 3: I love that for you. It's great.

1693
01:22:53,560 --> 01:22:55,920
Speaker 8: Yeah, So you can't instead of having the gloves right

1694
01:22:56,000 --> 01:22:58,120
Speaker 8: to just avoid picking it up. But people do get

1695
01:22:58,120 --> 01:23:01,800
Speaker 8: burned from that from from other stuff, right, So burn

1696
01:23:01,920 --> 01:23:05,720
Speaker 8: dressing not really necessary because it's unlikely if someone is

1697
01:23:05,760 --> 01:23:07,559
Speaker 8: burned to the extent that it's threatening to their life.

1698
01:23:07,600 --> 01:23:09,599
Speaker 8: You aren't helping them with your little box of stuff.

1699
01:23:10,960 --> 01:23:14,519
Speaker 8: So that's fine. And then these guys are vented chess seals.

1700
01:23:14,560 --> 01:23:17,080
Speaker 8: Ideally you do want vented chess seals. I was reading

1701
01:23:17,120 --> 01:23:18,840
Speaker 8: a study the other day. It's yes, the sort of

1702
01:23:19,320 --> 01:23:22,800
Speaker 8: greater survivability. And what you are doing with those is

1703
01:23:22,840 --> 01:23:26,120
Speaker 8: that this is for a sucking chess wounds. Not named

1704
01:23:26,120 --> 01:23:31,519
Speaker 8: that because it sucks, but it does. Yeah, but it is.

1705
01:23:32,240 --> 01:23:35,559
Speaker 8: This is for like, I guess, penetrating chest trauma. And

1706
01:23:35,560 --> 01:23:38,919
Speaker 8: what these these guys I bought in a pack of two.

1707
01:23:39,680 --> 01:23:42,240
Speaker 8: Hyphen are a good brand. I think Halo or another brand.

1708
01:23:42,800 --> 01:23:45,320
Speaker 8: There are some knockoffs on on Amazon dot Com. They

1709
01:23:45,360 --> 01:23:48,439
Speaker 8: wouldn't buy just like again, it's probably worth spending a

1710
01:23:48,439 --> 01:23:51,640
Speaker 8: little bit extra. These These are the ones that have

1711
01:23:51,720 --> 01:23:54,160
Speaker 8: gone through extensive testing that are issued to lots of

1712
01:23:54,200 --> 01:23:57,880
Speaker 8: militaries around the world. They're very flat, right, if you

1713
01:23:57,920 --> 01:23:59,960
Speaker 8: wanted to, you could distribute the ship about your person

1714
01:24:00,000 --> 01:24:01,400
Speaker 8: and it's just going to be harder to get it,

1715
01:24:01,400 --> 01:24:03,439
Speaker 8: and you're not going to remember which back pocket maybe

1716
01:24:03,479 --> 01:24:06,720
Speaker 8: you shut what in Sure, these are very flat and

1717
01:24:07,240 --> 01:24:12,360
Speaker 8: very easy. Their their giant stickers and you, again, when

1718
01:24:12,360 --> 01:24:14,320
Speaker 8: you do your training, will learn how to use them.

1719
01:24:14,439 --> 01:24:17,639
Speaker 8: But yeah, I would avoid like the Rhino. I think

1720
01:24:17,720 --> 01:24:19,920
Speaker 8: Rhino is one of the brands of Amazon and stuff.

1721
01:24:19,960 --> 01:24:22,120
Speaker 8: Just kind of like get a hyphen is kind of

1722
01:24:22,160 --> 01:24:27,960
Speaker 8: the standard. There's an older type as well, but these

1723
01:24:28,080 --> 01:24:30,439
Speaker 8: hyphens are more compact and they're preferred.

1724
01:24:31,760 --> 01:24:34,160
Speaker 9: And when you're searching hyphen, if you happen to researching,

1725
01:24:34,240 --> 01:24:36,320
Speaker 9: it's h y f I n. We're going to put

1726
01:24:36,320 --> 01:24:37,720
Speaker 9: it in the chat. But just you know, for a

1727
01:24:37,760 --> 01:24:40,880
Speaker 9: word that is phonetically very similar to another common word,

1728
01:24:40,960 --> 01:24:42,519
Speaker 9: hyphen is h y f i.

1729
01:24:42,479 --> 01:24:47,080
Speaker 8: N ah yes, p G Yeah, So well said Daniel,

1730
01:24:47,160 --> 01:24:51,240
Speaker 8: that is a. That is a that's a chess seal.

1731
01:24:51,320 --> 01:24:51,760
Speaker 3: Right, so.

1732
01:24:53,200 --> 01:24:56,040
Speaker 8: Here is the other type just for you're viewing this

1733
01:24:56,120 --> 01:25:00,519
Speaker 8: an Asherman chess seal, so that not preferred, So stick

1734
01:25:00,560 --> 01:25:03,960
Speaker 8: with the hyphen. These are kind of bigger and don't

1735
01:25:03,960 --> 01:25:06,879
Speaker 8: pack as well. And yeah, I would stick with the highphens.

1736
01:25:07,400 --> 01:25:13,200
Speaker 8: The other thing I have in here is a like

1737
01:25:13,200 --> 01:25:14,000
Speaker 8: a space blanket.

1738
01:25:15,600 --> 01:25:17,040
Speaker 3: Just interesting.

1739
01:25:17,200 --> 01:25:19,400
Speaker 8: Yeah, So when you are losing a lot of blood,

1740
01:25:19,400 --> 01:25:22,000
Speaker 8: you get very cold, and so you do want to

1741
01:25:22,080 --> 01:25:25,120
Speaker 8: keep that treasure, you do want to keep that casualty warm.

1742
01:25:25,360 --> 01:25:27,280
Speaker 8: This isn't going to really be enough on its own,

1743
01:25:27,400 --> 01:25:30,280
Speaker 8: quite honestly, like you need to probably actively heat someone,

1744
01:25:30,320 --> 01:25:32,240
Speaker 8: but it's better than nothing, and it's again.

1745
01:25:32,200 --> 01:25:32,960
Speaker 3: It's very small.

1746
01:25:34,640 --> 01:25:36,400
Speaker 8: Again, I've given tons of these out in various different

1747
01:25:36,400 --> 01:25:40,680
Speaker 8: situations that weren't like a casualty situation, so that a

1748
01:25:40,760 --> 01:25:42,240
Speaker 8: nice thing to have. You don't generally want to be

1749
01:25:42,240 --> 01:25:43,720
Speaker 8: packing ship just because it's a nice thing to have.

1750
01:25:43,800 --> 01:25:47,479
Speaker 8: And we'll get onto that. But this again is very small.

1751
01:25:47,920 --> 01:25:49,840
Speaker 8: There's almost always face for it, so I include that.

1752
01:25:50,680 --> 01:25:52,360
Speaker 8: I also have a little source of light, like a

1753
01:25:52,360 --> 01:25:58,679
Speaker 8: little torch flashlight for American listeners nice a s h.

1754
01:25:58,920 --> 01:26:03,240
Speaker 8: And that is there for being able to see things,

1755
01:26:03,800 --> 01:26:07,679
Speaker 8: which is very handy actually when you're trying to help

1756
01:26:07,720 --> 01:26:12,160
Speaker 8: someone who is bleeding. Another thing to include would be gloves.

1757
01:26:13,240 --> 01:26:15,080
Speaker 8: I have my gloves somewhere else on this belt, so

1758
01:26:15,080 --> 01:26:21,280
Speaker 8: they're not here, but medical gloves, right, And again you'll

1759
01:26:21,280 --> 01:26:23,200
Speaker 8: probably learn this in your course. But like a lot

1760
01:26:23,200 --> 01:26:24,720
Speaker 8: of people like to buy black ones, I don't know

1761
01:26:24,760 --> 01:26:28,680
Speaker 8: why cops wear black ones all the time, right, just

1762
01:26:28,720 --> 01:26:30,840
Speaker 8: makes it a little more difficult if you're doing a

1763
01:26:30,880 --> 01:26:33,280
Speaker 8: blood sweep, which is a thing you'll learn about in

1764
01:26:33,280 --> 01:26:36,840
Speaker 8: your class, so that it's actually quite hard to see,

1765
01:26:36,880 --> 01:26:42,360
Speaker 8: like blood on black, especially in perfect yeah, so blue

1766
01:26:42,439 --> 01:26:45,640
Speaker 8: tan something like that is kind of preferable.

1767
01:26:46,880 --> 01:26:49,000
Speaker 3: I do have those in the first age. I think good.

1768
01:26:49,080 --> 01:26:49,320
Speaker 4: Nice.

1769
01:26:49,560 --> 01:26:51,040
Speaker 8: Yeah, if you want to have those somewhere ready to go,

1770
01:26:51,080 --> 01:26:52,560
Speaker 8: I think they're on the front of this bag. You

1771
01:26:52,560 --> 01:26:56,200
Speaker 8: could slap those on. Just you know, you don't know

1772
01:26:56,240 --> 01:26:57,840
Speaker 8: where other people have been, what they've been up to you,

1773
01:26:58,439 --> 01:27:00,280
Speaker 8: and it doesn't matter what, you still want to help them.

1774
01:27:00,320 --> 01:27:01,800
Speaker 8: So you just want to just want to take care

1775
01:27:01,840 --> 01:27:04,920
Speaker 8: of yourself there. And so though they're honestly the main

1776
01:27:04,920 --> 01:27:06,600
Speaker 8: things I have in there, what I don't have in

1777
01:27:06,640 --> 01:27:10,000
Speaker 8: here is equally important. Right, I do not have tampons

1778
01:27:10,000 --> 01:27:11,920
Speaker 8: in here. The reason I do not have tampons in

1779
01:27:11,920 --> 01:27:13,519
Speaker 8: here as well, it's too far. I'm not a person

1780
01:27:13,520 --> 01:27:16,439
Speaker 8: who menitrates, and even if I was, I wouldn't have

1781
01:27:16,560 --> 01:27:19,439
Speaker 8: my first aid kit. And technically because they are not

1782
01:27:19,720 --> 01:27:23,360
Speaker 8: very good at but they're terrible at dealing with like

1783
01:27:23,520 --> 01:27:26,400
Speaker 8: massive bleeding, right, massive hemorrhage. That's not what they're for

1784
01:27:28,080 --> 01:27:31,439
Speaker 8: if people are familiar with what they are designed for.

1785
01:27:31,600 --> 01:27:34,599
Speaker 8: Like the volume of blood is not the same as

1786
01:27:34,640 --> 01:27:39,519
Speaker 8: the volume you will see from terial bleed. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

1787
01:27:39,600 --> 01:27:42,599
Speaker 8: believe me again, Like I've had the misfortune to see

1788
01:27:42,600 --> 01:27:45,000
Speaker 8: people die from blood loss, and like that is a

1789
01:27:45,040 --> 01:27:48,200
Speaker 8: lot of blood more and it's coming out fast, and

1790
01:27:48,200 --> 01:27:50,840
Speaker 8: you ain't stopping it with a tampon. It just kind

1791
01:27:50,880 --> 01:27:54,599
Speaker 8: of stopping someone who is better equipped from helping. So

1792
01:27:54,840 --> 01:27:56,800
Speaker 8: if you want to carry tampons and you want to

1793
01:27:56,800 --> 01:27:59,160
Speaker 8: have them available in case someone needs them, that is great,

1794
01:27:59,240 --> 01:28:01,360
Speaker 8: that's very kind. If you put them in your car,

1795
01:28:01,400 --> 01:28:03,200
Speaker 8: put them in your in your bag that you go

1796
01:28:03,320 --> 01:28:07,840
Speaker 8: around with, please, but don't confuse them with a trauma

1797
01:28:07,960 --> 01:28:13,680
Speaker 8: dressing because they are different things. Don't plan to improvise

1798
01:28:13,880 --> 01:28:18,840
Speaker 8: anything what broadly right, Like, it's just when we have

1799
01:28:19,200 --> 01:28:22,720
Speaker 8: excellent tools available that designed for this job, just use them.

1800
01:28:22,760 --> 01:28:24,960
Speaker 8: And it's fine not to be able to get all

1801
01:28:25,000 --> 01:28:27,479
Speaker 8: this stuff at once, Right, you could spring for the

1802
01:28:27,600 --> 01:28:29,360
Speaker 8: chess seals first and then save with a bit of

1803
01:28:29,360 --> 01:28:33,479
Speaker 8: money get the tornic k. That's fine, But like, yes,

1804
01:28:33,520 --> 01:28:35,880
Speaker 8: can you can you improvise a chess seal with some

1805
01:28:36,040 --> 01:28:39,559
Speaker 8: duct tape and a credit card or a CRISP packet

1806
01:28:39,720 --> 01:28:43,000
Speaker 8: in theory? Sure, but like these are like twelve bucks,

1807
01:28:43,360 --> 01:28:45,320
Speaker 8: so let's just let's just let's just get them if

1808
01:28:45,360 --> 01:28:49,920
Speaker 8: we can and have people improvised tornic k successfully with cravats? Yes,

1809
01:28:51,040 --> 01:28:53,120
Speaker 8: have those failed and resulted in loss of life?

1810
01:28:53,240 --> 01:28:53,400
Speaker 10: You know?

1811
01:28:53,520 --> 01:28:56,960
Speaker 3: Yes? Like in some cases. Your belt isn't a torny

1812
01:28:57,040 --> 01:28:58,800
Speaker 3: k right, it doesn't have a windless it's not going

1813
01:28:58,880 --> 01:29:01,719
Speaker 3: to get tight enough. It might snap.

1814
01:29:02,320 --> 01:29:05,040
Speaker 8: Have people used successfully, Yes, Is there a twenty three

1815
01:29:05,080 --> 01:29:06,960
Speaker 8: dollar thing which works much more effectively?

1816
01:29:07,080 --> 01:29:07,280
Speaker 3: Yes?

1817
01:29:08,600 --> 01:29:12,599
Speaker 8: And it's a serious thing. It's fucking it's very real.

1818
01:29:12,840 --> 01:29:17,920
Speaker 8: Like again speaking from experience, like this shit will affect

1819
01:29:17,960 --> 01:29:19,960
Speaker 8: you deeply, and you want to know that you did

1820
01:29:20,000 --> 01:29:22,080
Speaker 8: the best you could. So and if you can't afford

1821
01:29:22,080 --> 01:29:24,200
Speaker 8: any of this stuff, that's totally fine, Like just take

1822
01:29:24,200 --> 01:29:25,599
Speaker 8: your time and acquire it.

1823
01:29:27,600 --> 01:29:29,759
Speaker 9: I think an important thing to add at this point

1824
01:29:29,920 --> 01:29:34,640
Speaker 9: is to you know, listeners of our show are I

1825
01:29:34,640 --> 01:29:39,800
Speaker 9: think overly familiar with the way that we have kind

1826
01:29:39,840 --> 01:29:43,599
Speaker 9: of introduce the idea of mutual aid, like the point

1827
01:29:43,640 --> 01:29:45,439
Speaker 9: of mutual aid, And what I mean by that is

1828
01:29:45,479 --> 01:29:48,880
Speaker 9: that you are not a one person revolutionary Like the

1829
01:29:48,920 --> 01:29:52,439
Speaker 9: whole idea is community effort. And so especially with something

1830
01:29:52,479 --> 01:29:54,160
Speaker 9: like this, this is like a kind of a two

1831
01:29:54,200 --> 01:29:56,920
Speaker 9: part point. Especially with something like this, consider that you

1832
01:29:57,000 --> 01:29:59,559
Speaker 9: are part of a community that can help people overall.

1833
01:30:00,000 --> 01:30:02,360
Speaker 9: Maybe it is not you the individual listening to this

1834
01:30:02,400 --> 01:30:04,400
Speaker 9: episode right now that is like I'm going to go

1835
01:30:04,479 --> 01:30:07,200
Speaker 9: invest in all of these things because I will be

1836
01:30:07,240 --> 01:30:10,160
Speaker 9: the first aid person. Maybe there's someone you know who's

1837
01:30:10,280 --> 01:30:12,680
Speaker 9: already interested in this, and this is information that you

1838
01:30:12,680 --> 01:30:14,720
Speaker 9: can pass on to them should they be wanting to

1839
01:30:14,760 --> 01:30:17,559
Speaker 9: invest in equipment like this. And another thing to think

1840
01:30:17,600 --> 01:30:21,240
Speaker 9: about in terms of why James is offering specific items

1841
01:30:21,640 --> 01:30:24,679
Speaker 9: is because think about a hobby that you like doing,

1842
01:30:24,960 --> 01:30:28,240
Speaker 9: Think about anything that you like doing a lot. You

1843
01:30:28,280 --> 01:30:32,479
Speaker 9: know you don't usually buy the cheapest version of the thing.

1844
01:30:33,080 --> 01:30:36,600
Speaker 9: And now this is not me, you know, necessarily advocating

1845
01:30:36,640 --> 01:30:40,880
Speaker 9: for overspending or buying expensive things. You just want to

1846
01:30:40,880 --> 01:30:44,040
Speaker 9: buy stuff that lasts and that works well and that

1847
01:30:44,120 --> 01:30:48,360
Speaker 9: does the job because you know overall that stuff will

1848
01:30:48,439 --> 01:30:52,000
Speaker 9: last longer than anything that is cheaper in the immediate moment.

1849
01:30:52,240 --> 01:30:54,080
Speaker 9: I think people can say the same thing about things

1850
01:30:54,120 --> 01:30:58,280
Speaker 9: like work boots, about tools, about anything that to you

1851
01:30:58,439 --> 01:31:00,800
Speaker 9: is worth investing your time in. So if this is

1852
01:31:00,840 --> 01:31:05,240
Speaker 9: something that you value, if being a first responder or

1853
01:31:05,280 --> 01:31:07,680
Speaker 9: being that person who's there, if taking a stop the

1854
01:31:07,680 --> 01:31:10,280
Speaker 9: bleed course is something that's important to you, consider that

1855
01:31:10,320 --> 01:31:13,360
Speaker 9: these things are more than just like you know, good

1856
01:31:13,439 --> 01:31:16,120
Speaker 9: things to have on hand. They're an investment in your

1857
01:31:16,240 --> 01:31:20,200
Speaker 9: future and your interests. So just something to consider that, like,

1858
01:31:20,320 --> 01:31:24,000
Speaker 9: while some of these things may I mean, nothing sounds

1859
01:31:24,080 --> 01:31:26,200
Speaker 9: outrageously expensive that you've said so far. I think the

1860
01:31:26,240 --> 01:31:28,200
Speaker 9: most expensive thing that you talked about was thirty five

1861
01:31:28,240 --> 01:31:30,200
Speaker 9: dollars in that range.

1862
01:31:30,360 --> 01:31:32,200
Speaker 8: Yeah, you can spend a lot on the pouch, but

1863
01:31:32,520 --> 01:31:36,839
Speaker 8: be sure you shouldn't. Sure like, don't buy some fancy

1864
01:31:36,880 --> 01:31:41,439
Speaker 8: hype beasts Instagram gung Guy pouch and right exactly, Yeah,

1865
01:31:41,600 --> 01:31:43,880
Speaker 8: I think, Yeah, the Selock scores is probably much expensive.

1866
01:31:43,920 --> 01:31:46,640
Speaker 8: Think I've spoken about on the point of durability, I

1867
01:31:46,680 --> 01:31:49,840
Speaker 8: do want to say I've seen people practicing with their

1868
01:31:49,880 --> 01:31:52,559
Speaker 8: torny keys, and I would suggest getting another one to

1869
01:31:52,600 --> 01:31:53,120
Speaker 8: practice with.

1870
01:31:53,560 --> 01:31:54,360
Speaker 3: Totally makes sense.

1871
01:31:54,720 --> 01:31:57,000
Speaker 8: So North America, Mescu breaks a blue one. It's exactly

1872
01:31:57,000 --> 01:31:59,240
Speaker 8: the same. It works just the same. If you need

1873
01:31:59,240 --> 01:32:01,759
Speaker 8: to use it, you can over time those things fatigue,

1874
01:32:01,800 --> 01:32:05,320
Speaker 8: and that they're not designed for multiple uses. Have they

1875
01:32:05,360 --> 01:32:06,519
Speaker 8: been used multiple times?

1876
01:32:06,640 --> 01:32:09,280
Speaker 3: Yes? Do people wash them and wash the blood of

1877
01:32:09,280 --> 01:32:11,559
Speaker 3: them and use them again? Yes? It is again like

1878
01:32:12,479 --> 01:32:15,639
Speaker 3: we shouldn't plan for a suboptimal setting and what's already

1879
01:32:15,640 --> 01:32:18,080
Speaker 3: going to be a pretty fucking suboptimal moment. And talking

1880
01:32:18,080 --> 01:32:21,880
Speaker 3: of suboptimal stuff, Daniel, we have to start, Yeah, to

1881
01:32:22,800 --> 01:32:25,519
Speaker 3: talk about Ronald Reagan. So that's my bad. I should

1882
01:32:25,520 --> 01:32:27,160
Speaker 3: have been the one being like Jason to take an

1883
01:32:27,160 --> 01:32:27,559
Speaker 3: AD break.

1884
01:32:28,080 --> 01:32:28,280
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1885
01:32:28,760 --> 01:32:31,320
Speaker 3: Here, I am a seasoned professional. We're back.

1886
01:32:32,000 --> 01:32:33,880
Speaker 8: We've returned from my AD break. So I wanted to

1887
01:32:33,920 --> 01:32:37,160
Speaker 8: talk about resources for training because I think those are

1888
01:32:37,240 --> 01:32:38,720
Speaker 8: very important, right, and that is where you're going to

1889
01:32:38,760 --> 01:32:42,280
Speaker 8: learn stuff. I am not telling you how to do this.

1890
01:32:44,040 --> 01:32:46,680
Speaker 8: I would suggest hitting up Stop the Bleed. I think

1891
01:32:46,680 --> 01:32:49,040
Speaker 8: it's stopped bleed dot org and Stop the Bid training

1892
01:32:49,080 --> 01:32:51,519
Speaker 8: in my area. There's a website that will link in

1893
01:32:51,520 --> 01:32:53,160
Speaker 8: the description. Are's part of that website where you can

1894
01:32:53,160 --> 01:32:56,120
Speaker 8: put in your zip code and find trainings. And then

1895
01:32:56,160 --> 01:32:59,840
Speaker 8: if I think about where I've got my training, it's

1896
01:33:00,160 --> 01:33:04,439
Speaker 8: through an organization called NOLS National Outdoor Leadership School. So

1897
01:33:04,960 --> 01:33:07,439
Speaker 8: once you get past Stop the Bleed, you've got a

1898
01:33:07,479 --> 01:33:11,160
Speaker 8: couple of Like most community colleges will have an EMTB

1899
01:33:11,400 --> 01:33:15,519
Speaker 8: course empt basic. That's quite a commitment of your time,

1900
01:33:15,520 --> 01:33:17,160
Speaker 8: but you can learn a lot of very important things.

1901
01:33:17,720 --> 01:33:19,200
Speaker 8: It can be a career for you if you want

1902
01:33:19,240 --> 01:33:22,000
Speaker 8: it to be. Certainly, it can be an adjunct to

1903
01:33:22,040 --> 01:33:25,400
Speaker 8: other careers you want to do. If you want to

1904
01:33:25,880 --> 01:33:27,839
Speaker 8: work in the outdoors. If you can do an EMT

1905
01:33:28,000 --> 01:33:30,960
Speaker 8: B and then do a wilderness EMT, that opens up

1906
01:33:30,960 --> 01:33:35,400
Speaker 8: a whole range of expeditions to you. So community college

1907
01:33:35,400 --> 01:33:37,760
Speaker 8: should be free. Most of those courses are free or

1908
01:33:37,800 --> 01:33:40,720
Speaker 8: very affordable, depending on where you are. Knowles courses are

1909
01:33:40,760 --> 01:33:45,240
Speaker 8: not free, nor are they very affordable. They are very expensive,

1910
01:33:45,240 --> 01:33:47,439
Speaker 8: but they are very good you look or ARII probably

1911
01:33:47,439 --> 01:33:50,200
Speaker 8: puts them on. Knowles does have scholarships for people who

1912
01:33:50,240 --> 01:33:52,080
Speaker 8: are more marginalized from the outdoors, or they did last

1913
01:33:52,120 --> 01:33:55,360
Speaker 8: time I spoke to them, so those might be worth

1914
01:33:55,439 --> 01:33:59,519
Speaker 8: checking out. And then there are apps which will give

1915
01:33:59,560 --> 01:34:02,320
Speaker 8: you resource since resources are not the same as training,

1916
01:34:02,560 --> 01:34:05,519
Speaker 8: right like training is knowing what to do, it's not.

1917
01:34:05,800 --> 01:34:07,920
Speaker 8: Sometimes it's knowing where to look. But in situations like this,

1918
01:34:08,080 --> 01:34:10,640
Speaker 8: like you don't want to be on your phone for

1919
01:34:10,760 --> 01:34:13,920
Speaker 8: more advanced stuff, for stuff where you know you're you're

1920
01:34:13,960 --> 01:34:16,880
Speaker 8: you're doing care in the field right if you're doing

1921
01:34:17,040 --> 01:34:20,439
Speaker 8: or you know, wilderness first responder. If you're trying to

1922
01:34:20,439 --> 01:34:23,599
Speaker 8: think times that I've done stuff with that. One time

1923
01:34:23,640 --> 01:34:25,479
Speaker 8: I was climbing up a mountain and the big old

1924
01:34:25,560 --> 01:34:28,519
Speaker 8: rock fell on me. I had to split my leg,

1925
01:34:28,600 --> 01:34:31,360
Speaker 8: and oh, my god, what bleeding like, yeah, yeah, it's

1926
01:34:31,360 --> 01:34:36,000
Speaker 8: good times. Uh don't, yeah, don't don't watch out for

1927
01:34:36,080 --> 01:34:37,240
Speaker 8: rock Fall audience.

1928
01:34:37,320 --> 01:34:39,880
Speaker 9: And I just want to throw something out there. Every

1929
01:34:40,240 --> 01:34:44,160
Speaker 9: single time James tells us any story about his life,

1930
01:34:44,280 --> 01:34:50,799
Speaker 9: it is just this, this wonderfully vivid, like colorful story

1931
01:34:50,920 --> 01:34:53,479
Speaker 9: about something that has happened to him, or an experience

1932
01:34:53,479 --> 01:34:55,400
Speaker 9: that he's had, or a profession that he's had. That

1933
01:34:55,560 --> 01:35:00,559
Speaker 9: just adds to the tone of interesting facts about James.

1934
01:35:00,640 --> 01:35:04,400
Speaker 9: So if you I don't know, I highly recommend used

1935
01:35:04,400 --> 01:35:06,760
Speaker 9: in every single episode that James isn't because you have

1936
01:35:06,840 --> 01:35:10,120
Speaker 9: lived a fascinating life and that is merely a split

1937
01:35:10,200 --> 01:35:10,720
Speaker 9: second of it.

1938
01:35:10,800 --> 01:35:11,479
Speaker 3: That's wild.

1939
01:35:11,680 --> 01:35:14,720
Speaker 9: I'm glad you're okay, Yeah, I'm fine, But yeah, you know,

1940
01:35:14,760 --> 01:35:19,280
Speaker 9: clearly here we are with that, right, Like, especially in

1941
01:35:19,280 --> 01:35:21,559
Speaker 9: wilderness meander, then there's an emphasis on using what you

1942
01:35:21,560 --> 01:35:24,599
Speaker 9: already have, and because you can't bring everything into the wilderness, right,

1943
01:35:24,640 --> 01:35:25,599
Speaker 9: So that's where I'm saying.

1944
01:35:25,600 --> 01:35:27,519
Speaker 8: Knowledge doesn't wear anything. It doesn't take up any space

1945
01:35:27,560 --> 01:35:30,839
Speaker 8: in your pack. So you can use an air mattress

1946
01:35:30,880 --> 01:35:34,519
Speaker 8: pretty well to splint a leg injury. You can use

1947
01:35:34,520 --> 01:35:36,680
Speaker 8: one of those foam for air mattresses. A guy that

1948
01:35:36,720 --> 01:35:39,240
Speaker 8: you sleep on. Yeah, yeah, yeah, So you can kind

1949
01:35:39,240 --> 01:35:43,240
Speaker 8: of fandangle those up around a leg. You can use

1950
01:35:43,280 --> 01:35:46,599
Speaker 8: a therm arrest or similar. Other products are available foam

1951
01:35:46,600 --> 01:35:51,799
Speaker 8: sleeping mattress. You can use a hiking pole, right, tent pole.

1952
01:35:52,240 --> 01:35:53,840
Speaker 8: Tentpoles are kind of nice because you can break them

1953
01:35:53,840 --> 01:35:56,680
Speaker 8: down into sections to get the right length, and then

1954
01:35:56,720 --> 01:35:59,479
Speaker 8: all you're using from your first aid kit is your

1955
01:36:00,280 --> 01:36:03,360
Speaker 8: it's your tape, right or I like ski straps. I

1956
01:36:03,360 --> 01:36:05,880
Speaker 8: attach everything in my life. It's important to me with

1957
01:36:05,960 --> 01:36:09,760
Speaker 8: ski straps. So I love a ski strap and I

1958
01:36:09,760 --> 01:36:12,280
Speaker 8: had some ski straps, and you can just splin that

1959
01:36:12,280 --> 01:36:13,840
Speaker 8: bad boy with a couple of ski traps, a couple

1960
01:36:13,840 --> 01:36:16,840
Speaker 8: of tent poles back of the net. You're not having

1961
01:36:16,840 --> 01:36:19,240
Speaker 8: a great day at that point. This is not the

1962
01:36:19,320 --> 01:36:21,559
Speaker 8: kind of medical care you'd hope for in a professional setting.

1963
01:36:21,600 --> 01:36:23,640
Speaker 8: But you know, if you've got that and you've got

1964
01:36:23,640 --> 01:36:26,080
Speaker 8: a crash, you you can get yourself to a higher

1965
01:36:26,120 --> 01:36:30,000
Speaker 8: degree of care. So when we're doing stuff like that,

1966
01:36:30,520 --> 01:36:34,400
Speaker 8: I believe NOLES has a Wilderness Medicine app. There's Deployed Medicine,

1967
01:36:34,479 --> 01:36:37,880
Speaker 8: which is a US military resource for field care, which

1968
01:36:38,280 --> 01:36:40,280
Speaker 8: can help to remind you of stuff that you've already

1969
01:36:40,280 --> 01:36:41,840
Speaker 8: trained on. It's not going to teach you to do

1970
01:36:41,880 --> 01:36:43,880
Speaker 8: stuff you shouldn't. Just read about it on there and

1971
01:36:44,000 --> 01:36:47,280
Speaker 8: use it. And there's a new one called goes Ges

1972
01:36:47,400 --> 01:36:51,360
Speaker 8: which literally launched like this week goes Health, which it's

1973
01:36:51,400 --> 01:36:53,519
Speaker 8: offline to It gives an offline data base of wilderness

1974
01:36:53,560 --> 01:36:56,839
Speaker 8: medicine and it helps you kind of with diagnostic queues

1975
01:36:56,880 --> 01:37:01,000
Speaker 8: of stuff. So when you do your wilderness first responder,

1976
01:37:01,000 --> 01:37:02,920
Speaker 8: at least when I did it, someone must have had

1977
01:37:02,960 --> 01:37:05,200
Speaker 8: an ectopic pregnancy and had a very bad outcome, because

1978
01:37:05,200 --> 01:37:07,360
Speaker 8: they'll they'll ask you with all these questions like what

1979
01:37:07,360 --> 01:37:09,920
Speaker 8: could this be? What could this be? And like they

1980
01:37:10,000 --> 01:37:11,200
Speaker 8: want you to be able to know what any topic

1981
01:37:11,240 --> 01:37:13,320
Speaker 8: pregnancy is so like. But there's like a sort of

1982
01:37:13,439 --> 01:37:15,680
Speaker 8: flow chart that you can follow right to help you

1983
01:37:15,720 --> 01:37:17,679
Speaker 8: be like what is this? Is it appendicitis? What's going

1984
01:37:17,720 --> 01:37:18,040
Speaker 8: on here?

1985
01:37:19,400 --> 01:37:21,080
Speaker 3: So when?

1986
01:37:21,360 --> 01:37:24,080
Speaker 8: Because you probably won't remember every certainly if you take

1987
01:37:24,080 --> 01:37:25,960
Speaker 8: a woof of course, and then two years later you

1988
01:37:26,000 --> 01:37:29,040
Speaker 8: know you have before you recertified, like something happens, a

1989
01:37:29,040 --> 01:37:30,559
Speaker 8: lot could happen in two years, you won't have remembered

1990
01:37:30,600 --> 01:37:32,840
Speaker 8: everything that you learned in your course right, So some

1991
01:37:32,920 --> 01:37:37,599
Speaker 8: of those apps are useful, but the most important thing

1992
01:37:37,640 --> 01:37:39,439
Speaker 8: this thing where you will learn to use all of

1993
01:37:39,479 --> 01:37:41,639
Speaker 8: the items in this I fact is stopped the bleed

1994
01:37:42,120 --> 01:37:46,920
Speaker 8: and it is free, and that is where everyone should start.

1995
01:37:47,360 --> 01:37:48,840
Speaker 8: They're not going to teach you how to use all

1996
01:37:48,840 --> 01:37:51,160
Speaker 8: the things. So if we bust open the bag that

1997
01:37:51,200 --> 01:37:57,320
Speaker 8: you got Daniel quickly, it's overstuffed. There's a lot of

1998
01:37:57,320 --> 01:37:59,400
Speaker 8: things in there. Yeah, wait, too many things.

1999
01:38:00,120 --> 01:38:02,800
Speaker 9: Mean literally, like as there is a there is a

2000
01:38:02,960 --> 01:38:08,320
Speaker 9: pouch of emergency drinking water. There is there is a

2001
01:38:08,760 --> 01:38:11,040
Speaker 9: which might call it a bright stick, like a little

2002
01:38:11,240 --> 01:38:16,360
Speaker 9: light stick. There is about one hundred different kinds of

2003
01:38:16,840 --> 01:38:19,040
Speaker 9: uh which MC call it. Like look at this literal

2004
01:38:19,200 --> 01:38:22,520
Speaker 9: just like pile of band aids, just lit like hundreds

2005
01:38:22,560 --> 01:38:27,120
Speaker 9: of band aids and alcohol wipes. And oh there's a whistle.

2006
01:38:28,120 --> 01:38:29,960
Speaker 9: A whistle is should you get lost in the wilderness.

2007
01:38:30,720 --> 01:38:35,720
Speaker 3: This is a very handy in urban or rural dishausters.

2008
01:38:35,760 --> 01:38:37,760
Speaker 3: But for first at not for this.

2009
01:38:37,800 --> 01:38:39,960
Speaker 9: I don't think any of this stuff is necessarily bad.

2010
01:38:40,080 --> 01:38:43,160
Speaker 9: It's just there's just way too much. There's gauze pads,

2011
01:38:43,200 --> 01:38:47,280
Speaker 9: there is this a b D pad, sterile extra absorbent pad, yep.

2012
01:38:47,800 --> 01:38:49,600
Speaker 9: That you know, I don't think is going to do

2013
01:38:49,680 --> 01:38:51,559
Speaker 9: what it needs to do. But there's a shit ton

2014
01:38:51,600 --> 01:38:54,559
Speaker 9: of gauze in here, and there are look at and

2015
01:38:54,640 --> 01:38:57,080
Speaker 9: you want to talk about things to cut open. You're

2016
01:38:57,080 --> 01:39:01,400
Speaker 9: talking about clothing scissors. Uh, these little guys I don't

2017
01:39:01,400 --> 01:39:04,080
Speaker 9: think are going to do that. No, they're for your

2018
01:39:04,160 --> 01:39:08,799
Speaker 9: tape and stuff exactly, trimming tape. There's also tweezers in here. Really,

2019
01:39:08,840 --> 01:39:11,080
Speaker 9: this feels like for people who are in the wilderness

2020
01:39:11,080 --> 01:39:11,799
Speaker 9: and they get a splinter.

2021
01:39:12,560 --> 01:39:15,280
Speaker 8: Yeah, yeah, and that stuff super handy to having your

2022
01:39:15,280 --> 01:39:18,840
Speaker 8: truck or your car or you're like, motorcycle guys are

2023
01:39:18,880 --> 01:39:20,080
Speaker 8: already pretty good.

2024
01:39:21,439 --> 01:39:21,679
Speaker 3: Yes.

2025
01:39:21,920 --> 01:39:25,519
Speaker 8: Yeah, it's not gonna immediately stop you from dying from

2026
01:39:25,600 --> 01:39:27,439
Speaker 8: loss of blood, which is what we're concerned with. That

2027
01:39:27,960 --> 01:39:29,840
Speaker 8: if you do ride a motorcycle, you really want to

2028
01:39:29,880 --> 01:39:33,519
Speaker 8: fucking have one. Like I ride a bicycle, and I

2029
01:39:33,560 --> 01:39:37,280
Speaker 8: have seen some motor vehicle accidents and I'm just gonna say,

2030
01:39:37,320 --> 01:39:39,240
Speaker 8: motorcycle folks want to have that. Someone else can grab

2031
01:39:39,240 --> 01:39:40,559
Speaker 8: it off your motobi. I can use it if you've

2032
01:39:40,600 --> 01:39:46,439
Speaker 8: hurt yourself, but sure, I've seen that happen before. So yeah,

2033
01:39:46,439 --> 01:39:48,400
Speaker 8: that stuff is all very handy. It's all very nice.

2034
01:39:48,400 --> 01:39:50,519
Speaker 8: It can make you feel better, right, Like there's I

2035
01:39:50,680 --> 01:39:54,920
Speaker 8: imagine there's a ton of viberprofen and paracetamol and benadryl

2036
01:39:55,800 --> 01:39:58,760
Speaker 8: uh all that stuff is great. That stuffs super handy, right.

2037
01:39:58,800 --> 01:40:01,240
Speaker 8: And another thing I would add is some of that

2038
01:40:01,280 --> 01:40:04,360
Speaker 8: stuff can be life saving if you have an allergy, right,

2039
01:40:04,400 --> 01:40:07,280
Speaker 8: and you need to take something for that, Yeah, put

2040
01:40:07,280 --> 01:40:09,599
Speaker 8: that in your first aid kit because that's particular to you.

2041
01:40:09,920 --> 01:40:10,040
Speaker 7: Right.

2042
01:40:10,080 --> 01:40:13,040
Speaker 8: And that's if you need an EpiPen, then have your

2043
01:40:13,040 --> 01:40:16,439
Speaker 8: EpiPen of course, right, you know, I'm sure you do. Anyway,

2044
01:40:16,479 --> 01:40:18,759
Speaker 8: if you have diabetes, have your glucagarn and some sugar.

2045
01:40:20,120 --> 01:40:23,439
Speaker 8: All of that stuff is of course important. But in

2046
01:40:23,520 --> 01:40:26,920
Speaker 8: terms of like dealing with what we perceive to be

2047
01:40:27,080 --> 01:40:32,120
Speaker 8: an increased risk of like homophobic violence, which normally manifests

2048
01:40:32,120 --> 01:40:35,200
Speaker 8: itself as people getting shot in this country, then the

2049
01:40:35,800 --> 01:40:38,880
Speaker 8: little scissors and the ABD pad the band aids aren't

2050
01:40:38,880 --> 01:40:40,760
Speaker 8: what we need and they're just going to get in

2051
01:40:40,800 --> 01:40:43,519
Speaker 8: the way. So even if you have those, great keep

2052
01:40:43,600 --> 01:40:47,000
Speaker 8: them in the car. I gave tons of people band

2053
01:40:47,040 --> 01:40:49,559
Speaker 8: aids because they got blisters in twenty twenty, right, Because

2054
01:40:50,160 --> 01:40:53,320
Speaker 8: people are not familiar with walking that far. Their boots sucked.

2055
01:40:53,439 --> 01:40:56,439
Speaker 8: People decided to wear heavy boots because they're worried. All

2056
01:40:56,560 --> 01:40:59,599
Speaker 8: understandable things. It's a lot of band aids, a load

2057
01:40:59,640 --> 01:41:03,000
Speaker 8: of horse you plasters or you know, like second skin. Great,

2058
01:41:03,120 --> 01:41:05,639
Speaker 8: I'm happy to give you one of those things. I'll

2059
01:41:05,680 --> 01:41:07,559
Speaker 8: keep it in a different pocket though, right So, so

2060
01:41:07,600 --> 01:41:10,280
Speaker 8: I'm not you know, sorting past the blister plasters if

2061
01:41:10,280 --> 01:41:14,519
Speaker 8: someone's been shot. And that's a good tip regardless of

2062
01:41:14,520 --> 01:41:17,000
Speaker 8: what you're doing, what you're even if you're doing, you know,

2063
01:41:17,000 --> 01:41:19,160
Speaker 8: you're bringing more stuff and more people. It's great aspirin,

2064
01:41:19,320 --> 01:41:22,240
Speaker 8: I bet people need that sometimes, or iberprofione if their

2065
01:41:22,320 --> 01:41:25,599
Speaker 8: knees hurting from walking a lot, great, pound that shit.

2066
01:41:25,720 --> 01:41:28,639
Speaker 8: But like, don't that's not what we want. We don't

2067
01:41:28,640 --> 01:41:31,760
Speaker 8: want to be administering medicines really, certainly if we're not

2068
01:41:31,840 --> 01:41:34,960
Speaker 8: trying to do so after a trauma thing, because some

2069
01:41:35,000 --> 01:41:38,800
Speaker 8: of they pay medicines we might be taking might inhibit

2070
01:41:38,840 --> 01:41:40,840
Speaker 8: blood clotting, right, So we don't want to be doing

2071
01:41:40,920 --> 01:41:43,599
Speaker 8: that before that person goes on too a higher standard care.

2072
01:41:43,600 --> 01:41:45,960
Speaker 8: It's going to fucking suck for them. But like you're

2073
01:41:46,600 --> 01:41:49,360
Speaker 8: the best you can do is stop their person dying

2074
01:41:49,439 --> 01:41:51,360
Speaker 8: or help someone else who's qualified to do that by

2075
01:41:51,400 --> 01:41:54,360
Speaker 8: just saying, hey, I have this stuff and it's all

2076
01:41:54,360 --> 01:41:58,760
Speaker 8: pretty compact, you know, Like I said, it's it's you know,

2077
01:41:58,800 --> 01:42:01,559
Speaker 8: the size of a paperback, but decent sized paperback books

2078
01:42:01,600 --> 01:42:06,840
Speaker 8: and ththing like that, and having it may or may

2079
01:42:06,840 --> 01:42:09,080
Speaker 8: not be hopefully right. You just buy this thing and

2080
01:42:09,120 --> 01:42:12,160
Speaker 8: it sits around for a while, and eventually, if you've

2081
01:42:12,160 --> 01:42:14,760
Speaker 8: been having the tornquair in the sun for years and years,

2082
01:42:14,760 --> 01:42:16,599
Speaker 8: you've want to replace it. The UV can cause them

2083
01:42:16,600 --> 01:42:20,120
Speaker 8: to decay. You can just put them inside a pouch.

2084
01:42:20,520 --> 01:42:22,760
Speaker 8: I've made all kinds of pouches for them. You can

2085
01:42:22,800 --> 01:42:24,360
Speaker 8: buy an expensive one on the internet, or you can

2086
01:42:24,400 --> 01:42:26,679
Speaker 8: just use a piece so a piece of nylon, which

2087
01:42:26,680 --> 01:42:29,920
Speaker 8: is what I do, two rubber bands and put it

2088
01:42:29,920 --> 01:42:35,080
Speaker 8: inside your waistband of your thing. Many many such solutions exist.

2089
01:42:35,120 --> 01:42:37,439
Speaker 8: But yeah, I would encourage everyone. I think I've said

2090
01:42:37,439 --> 01:42:40,519
Speaker 8: it's about twenty eight times to get training and not

2091
01:42:40,760 --> 01:42:44,519
Speaker 8: just to just go and do this. If you can't

2092
01:42:44,560 --> 01:42:46,240
Speaker 8: access that training straight away and you want to get

2093
01:42:46,240 --> 01:42:48,479
Speaker 8: the stuff where you look for training, that's fine. Just

2094
01:42:48,479 --> 01:42:50,240
Speaker 8: don't be doing stuff you don't know how to do,

2095
01:42:50,880 --> 01:42:54,120
Speaker 8: because you know someone might confuse that for someone who

2096
01:42:54,160 --> 01:42:56,120
Speaker 8: is qualified and is helping. And then if you don't

2097
01:42:56,120 --> 01:42:58,080
Speaker 8: know what you're doing and you make a mistake, and

2098
01:42:58,720 --> 01:43:01,559
Speaker 8: that that could be worse someone. If someone comes in

2099
01:43:01,600 --> 01:43:04,200
Speaker 8: and they're doing triage right, they're saying, who do we

2100
01:43:04,240 --> 01:43:06,559
Speaker 8: need to treat now? Who do we need to treat later?

2101
01:43:06,920 --> 01:43:10,360
Speaker 8: Who can't we help then? And they see you doing that, Okay,

2102
01:43:10,360 --> 01:43:12,840
Speaker 8: that person's covered that. You want to be sure that

2103
01:43:12,880 --> 01:43:16,920
Speaker 8: you're covering what you're doing. So yeah, just make sure

2104
01:43:16,920 --> 01:43:18,960
Speaker 8: you get the training. We're not trying to scare you

2105
01:43:19,000 --> 01:43:22,479
Speaker 8: into not going to things. Please don't feel afraid. I

2106
01:43:22,479 --> 01:43:24,360
Speaker 8: know it's very easy to feel afraid. That's, of course

2107
01:43:24,840 --> 01:43:28,800
Speaker 8: the goal of you know, most of these people their

2108
01:43:28,800 --> 01:43:30,639
Speaker 8: ass is welded to their gaming chair and they will

2109
01:43:30,640 --> 01:43:32,320
Speaker 8: never actually come into the streets and hurt you. They

2110
01:43:32,360 --> 01:43:37,599
Speaker 8: just stay stuff on Twitter dot com and like, you're fine.

2111
01:43:38,320 --> 01:43:42,160
Speaker 8: But it's very reasonable to be prudent. And certainly this

2112
01:43:42,240 --> 01:43:43,960
Speaker 8: is stuff I have in my TK, I have it

2113
01:43:44,000 --> 01:43:45,360
Speaker 8: in my bag, I have it in most places I go,

2114
01:43:45,920 --> 01:43:48,320
Speaker 8: and you know, you get used to it. It's fine,

2115
01:43:48,439 --> 01:43:50,400
Speaker 8: and take it a course. And I'm on work trips

2116
01:43:50,400 --> 01:43:52,280
Speaker 8: and I try and leave lots of it with my

2117
01:43:52,320 --> 01:43:55,320
Speaker 8: colleagues who can't access it so easily in other countries.

2118
01:43:55,880 --> 01:44:01,599
Speaker 8: So yeah, I hope that's helpful for people's peace. Yes, yeah, yeah,

2119
01:44:01,640 --> 01:44:06,439
Speaker 8: it is it. It's it's look, I guess just to

2120
01:44:06,479 --> 01:44:10,920
Speaker 8: wrap up, like you are not. I don't watch television really,

2121
01:44:12,000 --> 01:44:14,639
Speaker 8: Hugh Laurie, what's Hugh Lurry's deal house?

2122
01:44:15,360 --> 01:44:16,400
Speaker 3: Oh house? Yeah?

2123
01:44:16,640 --> 01:44:19,080
Speaker 8: Or like some other super doctor, right, Like you can't

2124
01:44:19,120 --> 01:44:22,600
Speaker 8: heal everyone. Bad things happen, but there's just peace of

2125
01:44:22,600 --> 01:44:24,240
Speaker 8: mind and trying to do your best to help everyone.

2126
01:44:24,720 --> 01:44:29,400
Speaker 8: And that's relative accessible and not too expensive. I think

2127
01:44:29,439 --> 01:44:31,479
Speaker 8: there's an IPAC fund which gives youse away for free

2128
01:44:31,479 --> 01:44:33,800
Speaker 8: as well, so cool. That's where I'm looking in too.

2129
01:44:34,600 --> 01:44:37,040
Speaker 8: If that's if someone can find that, they can send

2130
01:44:37,080 --> 01:44:39,599
Speaker 8: it to me and I will post it. But yeah,

2131
01:44:39,760 --> 01:44:42,040
Speaker 8: it's a peace of mind and it's it's not too

2132
01:44:42,080 --> 01:44:43,720
Speaker 8: hard to get that training. So go out there and

2133
01:44:43,760 --> 01:44:46,479
Speaker 8: do that wonderful do it with someone you love, do it,

2134
01:44:46,520 --> 01:44:48,680
Speaker 8: do it for fun, do it with your friend, make

2135
01:44:48,720 --> 01:44:50,000
Speaker 8: a god a date.

2136
01:44:50,280 --> 01:44:54,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, find someone on yeah, yeah, do it. Let us

2137
01:44:54,400 --> 01:44:55,160
Speaker 3: know how that goes.

2138
01:44:56,000 --> 01:44:57,960
Speaker 9: Hey, what's your favorite color? So what are you doing

2139
01:44:58,000 --> 01:45:00,479
Speaker 9: this weekend? Wanted to a stop the bleed course. I

2140
01:45:00,479 --> 01:45:01,320
Speaker 9: think that's very.

2141
01:45:01,160 --> 01:45:09,400
Speaker 8: Sexy into that exactly. Yeah, please don't DM me with

2142
01:45:09,520 --> 01:45:12,800
Speaker 8: potential still please no, no, do not m James, don't

2143
01:45:12,840 --> 01:45:18,559
Speaker 8: do it. But yeah, hopefully that helps people. Wonderful well, James,

2144
01:45:18,920 --> 01:45:20,880
Speaker 8: thank you so much for this awesome information. It's been

2145
01:45:20,920 --> 01:45:25,240
Speaker 8: an absolute pleasure being on the show with you. And

2146
01:45:25,880 --> 01:45:28,360
Speaker 8: we'll post links in the chat or post sorry, post

2147
01:45:28,360 --> 01:45:33,120
Speaker 8: link the chat that we have exactly that that's that's

2148
01:45:33,120 --> 01:45:35,760
Speaker 8: my twitch ship coming through. I will post links in

2149
01:45:35,840 --> 01:45:40,240
Speaker 8: the description of the episode, and yeah, I look forward

2150
01:45:40,240 --> 01:45:42,479
Speaker 8: to doing this again with you. Yeah, Daniel, talking of

2151
01:45:42,520 --> 01:45:44,040
Speaker 8: your twitch ship, where can people find you?

2152
01:45:44,160 --> 01:45:44,400
Speaker 3: Twitch?

2153
01:45:44,400 --> 01:45:46,320
Speaker 9: Shit, They don't need to find me anywhere, but if

2154
01:45:46,320 --> 01:45:49,439
Speaker 9: you want to find me, you can TV slash Twitch

2155
01:45:49,439 --> 01:45:53,120
Speaker 9: dot tv slash DJ Underscore Daniel d A n L.

2156
01:45:53,360 --> 01:45:55,960
Speaker 9: And if you want to come ask me what Robert

2157
01:45:56,000 --> 01:45:58,599
Speaker 9: smells like. I will not ban you, but I will

2158
01:45:58,640 --> 01:46:00,640
Speaker 9: time you out for ten minutes, so you know, just

2159
01:46:00,720 --> 01:46:02,920
Speaker 9: you know, know that I'm happy to have whoever wants

2160
01:46:02,920 --> 01:46:06,000
Speaker 9: to come watch the watch the twitch stream, but I'm

2161
01:46:06,040 --> 01:46:08,800
Speaker 9: not going to answer any weird questions about my coworkers.

2162
01:46:09,520 --> 01:46:14,880
Speaker 3: As you should be. Thank you Daniel, thank you James

2163
01:46:30,160 --> 01:46:34,719
Speaker 3: or Government. It's it could happen here a podcast where

2164
01:46:34,920 --> 01:46:37,520
Speaker 3: by attempt to do a British accent. It's been overwritten

2165
01:46:37,560 --> 01:46:40,639
Speaker 3: by Robert's Boston accent because I can't get it out

2166
01:46:40,680 --> 01:46:47,479
Speaker 3: of my head. This is the podcast where retreat Britain

2167
01:46:47,520 --> 01:46:50,639
Speaker 3: with the level of respect that it deserves. You're getting

2168
01:46:50,680 --> 01:46:52,920
Speaker 3: You're getting this ship right now, because the entire rest

2169
01:46:52,960 --> 01:46:55,080
Speaker 3: of this episode is going to be unbelievably depressing.

2170
01:46:55,840 --> 01:46:59,160
Speaker 6: Oh wow, maah, that's such a good accent. I believe

2171
01:46:59,200 --> 01:47:01,160
Speaker 6: you're one of my authentic countrymen.

2172
01:47:01,920 --> 01:47:02,120
Speaker 3: Wow.

2173
01:47:02,400 --> 01:47:05,080
Speaker 6: So good to chat to another fellow brit.

2174
01:47:07,960 --> 01:47:10,840
Speaker 3: With me. With Me is Sophie from Mars, who does

2175
01:47:10,960 --> 01:47:13,200
Speaker 3: many things, including.

2176
01:47:14,479 --> 01:47:20,160
Speaker 6: Things impressions of Americans, doing impressions of British people, one

2177
01:47:20,240 --> 01:47:21,720
Speaker 6: of my favorite impressions to do.

2178
01:47:23,920 --> 01:47:28,120
Speaker 3: Oh god, you know this is being recorded, and this

2179
01:47:28,200 --> 01:47:31,200
Speaker 3: is being recorded at like a Geneva convention, crime time

2180
01:47:31,600 --> 01:47:35,320
Speaker 3: for podcasts. So it's it's going great, it's going great.

2181
01:47:35,360 --> 01:47:37,360
Speaker 3: I have I've consumed so much caffeine that I have

2182
01:47:37,400 --> 01:47:41,200
Speaker 3: seen the face of God. Yeah, but Sophie, welcome to

2183
01:47:41,240 --> 01:47:45,800
Speaker 3: the show. And yeah, I wish it was for something

2184
01:47:45,840 --> 01:47:46,879
Speaker 3: that was not this bullshit.

2185
01:47:47,040 --> 01:47:48,960
Speaker 6: But yeah, this is yeah pretty grim.

2186
01:47:49,760 --> 01:47:55,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, so okay, so what what what specifically is this bullshit? Right? Yeah,

2187
01:47:55,320 --> 01:47:57,920
Speaker 3: the government of the United Kingdom, despite his reputation is

2188
01:47:58,000 --> 01:48:01,240
Speaker 3: turf Isoland, has been kind of falling behind us in

2189
01:48:01,360 --> 01:48:04,680
Speaker 3: terms of like actual ability to use the state to

2190
01:48:04,720 --> 01:48:09,320
Speaker 3: discriminate and get trans people killed. And having seen this,

2191
01:48:09,479 --> 01:48:15,880
Speaker 3: reci Sunac was like, oh shit, hold on and has

2192
01:48:15,960 --> 01:48:20,680
Speaker 3: now compelled the British state to take a series of

2193
01:48:20,680 --> 01:48:23,680
Speaker 3: steps that we would include like doing mandatory outing of

2194
01:48:23,760 --> 01:48:25,599
Speaker 3: trans kids to their parents and schools.

2195
01:48:25,680 --> 01:48:30,240
Speaker 6: Yeah. Well, it's still it's still quite tough islandy, right,

2196
01:48:30,280 --> 01:48:33,240
Speaker 6: because it's like, yeah, this has always been the comparison

2197
01:48:33,240 --> 01:48:36,640
Speaker 6: between British transphobia and American transphobia. Your your guys are

2198
01:48:36,680 --> 01:48:39,720
Speaker 6: all like, you're going to Hell and I'm gonna make

2199
01:48:39,760 --> 01:48:43,360
Speaker 6: sure you personally get there with my shotgun, and our

2200
01:48:43,360 --> 01:48:47,120
Speaker 6: guys are like, bloody hell, that's not right. Did you

2201
01:48:47,200 --> 01:48:49,479
Speaker 6: have a license for that gender? You really shouldn't be

2202
01:48:49,840 --> 01:48:52,640
Speaker 6: walking around in public without proper registration for all of

2203
01:48:52,640 --> 01:48:57,320
Speaker 6: your genders. You're carrying their ma'am, and that's you know, like,

2204
01:48:57,560 --> 01:48:59,920
Speaker 6: so in that regard, we're still very much tough Island

2205
01:49:00,080 --> 01:49:02,760
Speaker 6: like that you've got you've got bills coming through that

2206
01:49:02,880 --> 01:49:06,679
Speaker 6: like invalidate other existing No, I mean I'm talking aboutself

2207
01:49:06,760 --> 01:49:11,599
Speaker 6: in suckles already, because even this legislation also invalidates existing

2208
01:49:11,720 --> 01:49:17,320
Speaker 6: legislation because bigots can't write laws that make any sense whatsoever.

2209
01:49:18,960 --> 01:49:21,080
Speaker 6: But yeah, I think, I mean, this is still using

2210
01:49:21,240 --> 01:49:25,800
Speaker 6: like my numbing bureaucracy to enforce horrible bigotry. So in that,

2211
01:49:26,080 --> 01:49:28,160
Speaker 6: in that sense, it's still very on brand for the

2212
01:49:28,200 --> 01:49:28,920
Speaker 6: British government.

2213
01:49:30,320 --> 01:49:32,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, so okay, do you do can we can we

2214
01:49:32,200 --> 01:49:34,840
Speaker 3: walk to a little bit of like what specifically it does,

2215
01:49:35,600 --> 01:49:37,920
Speaker 3: because this is one of the this is this is

2216
01:49:37,960 --> 01:49:40,080
Speaker 3: my one of the canones that I've been on is

2217
01:49:40,160 --> 01:49:41,920
Speaker 3: that most of like ninety nine percent of the people

2218
01:49:41,920 --> 01:49:44,559
Speaker 3: who cover this stuff are really really bad at actually

2219
01:49:44,720 --> 01:49:50,320
Speaker 3: like saying what a law says, because oh god, yeah sure,

2220
01:49:50,439 --> 01:49:51,000
Speaker 3: sure sure.

2221
01:49:51,439 --> 01:49:55,600
Speaker 6: So the first thing is about changing names, uniforms, and

2222
01:49:56,680 --> 01:50:01,960
Speaker 6: what pronouns are used for a student. They they're making

2223
01:50:02,000 --> 01:50:04,439
Speaker 6: it so that this can't be done with without parental consent.

2224
01:50:05,840 --> 01:50:07,959
Speaker 6: It should also be said that all of this is guidance,

2225
01:50:08,320 --> 01:50:10,920
Speaker 6: like that they're putting out guidance to schools and so

2226
01:50:11,000 --> 01:50:13,799
Speaker 6: when I said earlier, this is in conflict with existing legislation,

2227
01:50:14,040 --> 01:50:17,559
Speaker 6: Like we have the Equalities Act, which should actually protect

2228
01:50:17,600 --> 01:50:19,400
Speaker 6: against basically everything that they've said here.

2229
01:50:19,760 --> 01:50:20,320
Speaker 3: They don't care.

2230
01:50:21,600 --> 01:50:23,559
Speaker 6: You know, if the government puts out guidance, it's it's

2231
01:50:24,040 --> 01:50:28,000
Speaker 6: as ever with fascism, Like it's they're deplaying stochastic methods.

2232
01:50:28,040 --> 01:50:31,679
Speaker 6: They want to embolden people who would already be looking

2233
01:50:31,760 --> 01:50:34,560
Speaker 6: for any excuse to be shipped to trans kids, to

2234
01:50:34,640 --> 01:50:36,320
Speaker 6: be able to do it, even though it would actually

2235
01:50:36,320 --> 01:50:38,840
Speaker 6: break the law. So yeah, that's so that's my thing.

2236
01:50:39,680 --> 01:50:42,080
Speaker 3: So my understanding of this is it's it's it's closer

2237
01:50:42,120 --> 01:50:43,280
Speaker 3: to the kind of thing you get in the US,

2238
01:50:43,320 --> 01:50:45,840
Speaker 3: where like sometimes you have a state attorney general will

2239
01:50:45,960 --> 01:50:50,320
Speaker 3: just like issue an interpretation of a ruling. So it's

2240
01:50:50,400 --> 01:50:53,800
Speaker 3: it's like that is my my understanding of it.

2241
01:50:53,880 --> 01:50:57,000
Speaker 6: Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, So it's guidance. All the guidance

2242
01:50:57,040 --> 01:50:59,080
Speaker 6: that they've gone out would actually break the Equalities Act.

2243
01:50:59,320 --> 01:50:59,840
Speaker 3: They don't care.

2244
01:51:01,479 --> 01:51:05,400
Speaker 6: So point one, no pronoun or uniform change without parental consent.

2245
01:51:05,560 --> 01:51:09,760
Speaker 6: Point two, no hiding any changes from parents. So if

2246
01:51:09,800 --> 01:51:14,360
Speaker 6: a kid is like, hey, you singular member of staff

2247
01:51:14,439 --> 01:51:16,400
Speaker 6: that I trust, the only adults that I know who

2248
01:51:16,439 --> 01:51:19,920
Speaker 6: I feel like could possibly keep me safe. My parents

2249
01:51:19,960 --> 01:51:22,599
Speaker 6: are violently queophobic, and I think that if I come

2250
01:51:22,600 --> 01:51:24,800
Speaker 6: out to them, I might be in danger. Please help me.

2251
01:51:25,680 --> 01:51:28,200
Speaker 6: The guidance is telling them no. You should definitely tell

2252
01:51:28,280 --> 01:51:33,000
Speaker 6: those horrible parents no matter how dangerous, how much of

2253
01:51:33,040 --> 01:51:34,760
Speaker 6: a danger the child is telling you that they're in.

2254
01:51:37,479 --> 01:51:39,680
Speaker 6: Head can say no to protect other kids. Now, this

2255
01:51:39,760 --> 01:51:41,120
Speaker 6: is a really interesting point that we'll have to come

2256
01:51:41,160 --> 01:51:46,479
Speaker 6: back to because head masters in the UK there's a

2257
01:51:46,520 --> 01:51:49,120
Speaker 6: whole class thing going on there that we should talk about.

2258
01:51:49,160 --> 01:51:52,160
Speaker 6: But yeah, so the head teacher of the school can

2259
01:51:52,320 --> 01:51:57,840
Speaker 6: say no to protect other kids. So explicitly, the justification

2260
01:51:58,520 --> 01:52:03,280
Speaker 6: is that kids being out. It's not it's not even

2261
01:52:03,280 --> 01:52:05,400
Speaker 6: the justification that a kid coming out as trans would

2262
01:52:05,400 --> 01:52:07,800
Speaker 6: be dangerous to them because they might get bullied. It's

2263
01:52:08,040 --> 01:52:10,400
Speaker 6: it's that it could be dangerous to other kids. So

2264
01:52:10,479 --> 01:52:12,960
Speaker 6: it's to protect them from I guess the social contagion

2265
01:52:13,400 --> 01:52:19,360
Speaker 6: of transit agenda Jesus Christ and any any kids uh

2266
01:52:19,920 --> 01:52:24,599
Speaker 6: gender questioning or just generally like any kid transit anyway

2267
01:52:24,840 --> 01:52:27,920
Speaker 6: basically is just being kicked out of competitive sports and schools.

2268
01:52:28,520 --> 01:52:30,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, which is interesting because it's a kind of like

2269
01:52:30,640 --> 01:52:34,719
Speaker 3: smorgas Board of a bunch of the different Well, okay,

2270
01:52:34,800 --> 01:52:38,080
Speaker 3: the the preventing kids from coming out because it might

2271
01:52:38,160 --> 01:52:40,000
Speaker 3: cause other kids to come out thing is like a

2272
01:52:40,360 --> 01:52:43,160
Speaker 3: I think that's genuinely new. I've never seen that one before.

2273
01:52:43,600 --> 01:52:44,720
Speaker 3: But the rest of it, I think it's like like,

2274
01:52:44,760 --> 01:52:46,640
Speaker 3: you know, there, there's there's there's been you know, we've

2275
01:52:46,640 --> 01:52:48,439
Speaker 3: talked about this on the show, like there's been legislation

2276
01:52:48,520 --> 01:52:52,080
Speaker 3: in the US that has forced uh, that has forced

2277
01:52:52,080 --> 01:52:56,200
Speaker 3: schools to out kids. Yeah. Yeah, and you know obviously

2278
01:52:56,360 --> 01:53:00,400
Speaker 3: the the like sports bands are you know, it's sort

2279
01:53:00,439 --> 01:53:05,160
Speaker 3: of like a pretty kind of like ERG like ERG

2280
01:53:05,240 --> 01:53:07,240
Speaker 3: transphobic panic thing. Yeah.

2281
01:53:07,280 --> 01:53:10,679
Speaker 6: Absolutely, all the biological advantage and all of this nonsense,

2282
01:53:10,720 --> 01:53:15,320
Speaker 6: which is like, you know, you could argue as one

2283
01:53:15,400 --> 01:53:17,760
Speaker 6: thing when you're talking about like a bodybuilder who has

2284
01:53:17,880 --> 01:53:21,679
Speaker 6: been who has been a bodybuilder for like twenty years

2285
01:53:21,720 --> 01:53:24,120
Speaker 6: and is now just starting to take estrogen and blah

2286
01:53:24,160 --> 01:53:27,000
Speaker 6: blah blah about biological advantage, But when you're talking about

2287
01:53:27,040 --> 01:53:30,160
Speaker 6: like two twelve year olds, Yeah, it's like, where's the

2288
01:53:30,200 --> 01:53:32,639
Speaker 6: biolog who I don't I don't know which one I'm

2289
01:53:32,680 --> 01:53:33,080
Speaker 6: betting on.

2290
01:53:33,360 --> 01:53:35,680
Speaker 3: You know, this is the thing, like I think I

2291
01:53:35,720 --> 01:53:38,040
Speaker 3: think there's a kind of like specific like like I

2292
01:53:38,040 --> 01:53:39,360
Speaker 3: think I think part of the reason it's worked in

2293
01:53:39,400 --> 01:53:42,320
Speaker 3: the US was like there's a very specific kind of

2294
01:53:42,479 --> 01:53:47,280
Speaker 3: sports brain that Americans have, where like like like there

2295
01:53:47,320 --> 01:53:50,800
Speaker 3: are like people people are really obsessed with high school

2296
01:53:50,800 --> 01:53:54,920
Speaker 3: sports and also college sports. Yeah, and I think I

2297
01:53:55,000 --> 01:53:56,599
Speaker 3: think that played a role in part of like how

2298
01:53:56,920 --> 01:53:59,120
Speaker 3: how this played out, because people were like, you know,

2299
01:53:59,200 --> 01:54:04,760
Speaker 3: people are people are like very very concerned about this,

2300
01:54:05,680 --> 01:54:09,200
Speaker 3: Like why why on earth they care about college football?

2301
01:54:09,479 --> 01:54:12,160
Speaker 3: Is right? Well, I mean not inn conta, but like

2302
01:54:12,200 --> 01:54:14,320
Speaker 3: like high school football. It's like this is like yeah,

2303
01:54:14,680 --> 01:54:18,360
Speaker 3: why sure, okay, whatever, We've built like a national cult

2304
01:54:18,479 --> 01:54:21,759
Speaker 3: around watching like seventeen year olds deshoy each other's brains.

2305
01:54:22,240 --> 01:54:25,280
Speaker 3: But gym really like you.

2306
01:54:26,760 --> 01:54:29,400
Speaker 6: Like what wild like and it's like the only the

2307
01:54:29,479 --> 01:54:31,880
Speaker 6: only sports we really we really care about a rugby

2308
01:54:31,920 --> 01:54:34,760
Speaker 6: and football or you know, our football, and like, I

2309
01:54:34,960 --> 01:54:38,200
Speaker 6: just it should be said, there's also a kind of creepy,

2310
01:54:38,440 --> 01:54:41,480
Speaker 6: uh cult of youth thing going on without football. It's

2311
01:54:41,600 --> 01:54:45,080
Speaker 6: like we don't we don't have the you know, grown

2312
01:54:45,160 --> 01:54:48,680
Speaker 6: men screaming and crying watching watching high schoolers and and

2313
01:54:50,000 --> 01:54:54,520
Speaker 6: university level athletes go against each other, but like there

2314
01:54:54,560 --> 01:54:59,080
Speaker 6: are you know, it's seen as you know, equivalent to

2315
01:54:59,160 --> 01:55:01,680
Speaker 6: the draft, as like opportunity for working class kids to

2316
01:55:01,680 --> 01:55:04,120
Speaker 6: get out of out of their situation. Is like maybe

2317
01:55:04,160 --> 01:55:08,080
Speaker 6: you'll be a football star, like opportunities to yeah, exactly,

2318
01:55:08,320 --> 01:55:11,160
Speaker 6: like opportunities to prove that you're the next Ronaldo or

2319
01:55:11,160 --> 01:55:15,560
Speaker 6: whatever all through our society. But yeah, like I don't know,

2320
01:55:15,720 --> 01:55:18,680
Speaker 6: it would be like a lot of a lot of

2321
01:55:18,720 --> 01:55:21,360
Speaker 6: English people suddenly very invested in lots of sports they

2322
01:55:21,440 --> 01:55:23,760
Speaker 6: never cared about before, when like football has been the

2323
01:55:23,800 --> 01:55:26,120
Speaker 6: only one they care about their entire lives, and they're like, yeah,

2324
01:55:26,200 --> 01:55:28,800
Speaker 6: what about the biological differences? And I'm like, my guy,

2325
01:55:29,000 --> 01:55:31,240
Speaker 6: the place that this would impact you is in is

2326
01:55:31,280 --> 01:55:35,400
Speaker 6: in professional football. And even supposing a trans woman were

2327
01:55:35,480 --> 01:55:39,120
Speaker 6: to get up into like the professional competitive level of

2328
01:55:39,200 --> 01:55:42,440
Speaker 6: women's football. You don't watch the women's football, but even

2329
01:55:42,440 --> 01:55:47,520
Speaker 6: if you did, like there are already constantly, like in

2330
01:55:47,680 --> 01:55:50,800
Speaker 6: the analysis of games, people are constantly like, you know,

2331
01:55:51,120 --> 01:55:54,840
Speaker 6: this player is really fast or whatever, so we know

2332
01:55:54,960 --> 01:55:57,040
Speaker 6: that the the opposing team is going to make a

2333
01:55:57,080 --> 01:56:00,200
Speaker 6: concerted effort to try and block them off. Specifically, I'm

2334
01:56:00,200 --> 01:56:03,080
Speaker 6: just waiting for when like a women's football team at

2335
01:56:03,120 --> 01:56:05,320
Speaker 6: the professional level, like brings a trans woman on as

2336
01:56:05,360 --> 01:56:09,600
Speaker 6: a deliberate, like deliberate distraction so that she can like

2337
01:56:10,240 --> 01:56:11,760
Speaker 6: look like she's going to try and get the ball,

2338
01:56:11,920 --> 01:56:13,960
Speaker 6: half of the opposing team try to block her off

2339
01:56:14,000 --> 01:56:15,280
Speaker 6: and then and then the rest of the team just

2340
01:56:15,320 --> 01:56:16,080
Speaker 6: go and score a goal.

2341
01:56:17,840 --> 01:56:18,360
Speaker 9: No, I, I.

2342
01:56:19,920 --> 01:56:22,840
Speaker 6: I want to take like take it back to say

2343
01:56:22,880 --> 01:56:24,600
Speaker 6: something I've been meaning to say, which is quite serious,

2344
01:56:24,720 --> 01:56:29,640
Speaker 6: Like you and I are both like trans, but not

2345
01:56:29,840 --> 01:56:32,520
Speaker 6: like we want out as as trans as kids. And

2346
01:56:32,600 --> 01:56:34,680
Speaker 6: I do think it's really important to acknowledge that when

2347
01:56:34,720 --> 01:56:39,879
Speaker 6: we're having conversations about trans kids, because in my exposure

2348
01:56:39,920 --> 01:56:42,920
Speaker 6: to trans kids and also like chatting with trans people

2349
01:56:42,960 --> 01:56:44,960
Speaker 6: I know who were out as kids, like there's just

2350
01:56:45,040 --> 01:56:47,280
Speaker 6: a repeated frustration over and over again of just like

2351
01:56:49,200 --> 01:56:51,960
Speaker 6: even the most well meaning adults who are trying to

2352
01:56:52,000 --> 01:56:55,040
Speaker 6: talk about this, like and I'm saying that that may

2353
01:56:55,080 --> 01:57:00,280
Speaker 6: will be us, are still like still talking for these ds,

2354
01:57:01,000 --> 01:57:05,200
Speaker 6: and so it's like it's an incredibly dispossessing and paralyzing position.

2355
01:57:05,320 --> 01:57:08,760
Speaker 6: And like, obviously children are like one of the groups

2356
01:57:08,800 --> 01:57:11,879
Speaker 6: in our society with absolutely the least agency and constantly

2357
01:57:11,960 --> 01:57:15,000
Speaker 6: talked over and had decisions made for them. And you

2358
01:57:15,080 --> 01:57:17,800
Speaker 6: can make arguments about how just that is, but like

2359
01:57:17,960 --> 01:57:20,840
Speaker 6: we all recognize that, like, there are plenty of cases

2360
01:57:20,880 --> 01:57:24,000
Speaker 6: where kids should be able to tell adults like what's

2361
01:57:24,040 --> 01:57:25,640
Speaker 6: going on with them, and adults ignore them. And then

2362
01:57:25,680 --> 01:57:28,160
Speaker 6: this is a really clear case of that. And so

2363
01:57:28,400 --> 01:57:31,840
Speaker 6: I have been talking to in preparation for coming on

2364
01:57:31,960 --> 01:57:33,840
Speaker 6: to do this interview. I've been talking to people I

2365
01:57:34,040 --> 01:57:36,880
Speaker 6: know who were kids who are out and also talking

2366
01:57:36,920 --> 01:57:40,040
Speaker 6: to people I know who work with with trans kids,

2367
01:57:40,360 --> 01:57:43,040
Speaker 6: just so that like just so that what I'm presenting

2368
01:57:43,160 --> 01:57:46,080
Speaker 6: is not just like my kind of my broad feelings

2369
01:57:46,120 --> 01:57:49,160
Speaker 6: about how it might be, you know, yeah, but yeah,

2370
01:57:49,720 --> 01:57:51,640
Speaker 6: I want to talk about that. The head teachers thing,

2371
01:57:52,160 --> 01:57:55,600
Speaker 6: head teachers can can say no to protect other kids

2372
01:57:56,360 --> 01:57:58,040
Speaker 6: is a really fascinating part of this.

2373
01:57:58,400 --> 01:58:00,720
Speaker 3: Sorry, can we can we back what actually is? So

2374
01:58:00,920 --> 01:58:02,680
Speaker 3: what actually is a head teacher because we don't have

2375
01:58:02,760 --> 01:58:03,040
Speaker 3: this in.

2376
01:58:03,080 --> 01:58:06,760
Speaker 6: That thing that is exactly what I'm trying to Yeah, yeah, okay, So,

2377
01:58:07,160 --> 01:58:09,560
Speaker 6: how well let me ask this, how does someone become

2378
01:58:09,600 --> 01:58:11,560
Speaker 6: a principle in your system?

2379
01:58:12,400 --> 01:58:19,000
Speaker 3: I actually that's a good question. I think that they

2380
01:58:19,080 --> 01:58:23,280
Speaker 3: get hired by the school basically, but it's I don't

2381
01:58:23,320 --> 01:58:28,320
Speaker 3: know if they're that that actually is a good question.

2382
01:58:28,360 --> 01:58:31,680
Speaker 3: I feel like I shouldn't.

2383
01:58:31,760 --> 01:58:36,560
Speaker 6: Can a teacher become a principle because here, like again

2384
01:58:36,600 --> 01:58:38,600
Speaker 6: in the in the framework of youth liberation, in the

2385
01:58:38,640 --> 01:58:40,200
Speaker 6: same way as we might say a cab, you know,

2386
01:58:40,560 --> 01:58:43,440
Speaker 6: you might point out that, like, you know, teachers people

2387
01:58:43,480 --> 01:58:46,879
Speaker 6: put in a systemic position to often like deny kids agency,

2388
01:58:47,680 --> 01:58:49,800
Speaker 6: but it's not quite as as like clear cut as

2389
01:58:49,840 --> 01:58:53,040
Speaker 6: a cab, right, Like, like teachers are fucking great, and

2390
01:58:53,160 --> 01:58:56,720
Speaker 6: like big up teachers unions, and like tons of teachers

2391
01:58:56,760 --> 01:58:59,440
Speaker 6: are both like massively underpaid and feeling the cost of

2392
01:58:59,480 --> 01:59:03,800
Speaker 6: living crisis really hard, and also pretty based people. Head teachers,

2393
01:59:03,840 --> 01:59:07,520
Speaker 6: on the other hand, a different school of fish entirely,

2394
01:59:07,680 --> 01:59:09,520
Speaker 6: Like they have a they have different unions, they have

2395
01:59:09,560 --> 01:59:12,600
Speaker 6: a different social life, they have a different class characteristic

2396
01:59:12,680 --> 01:59:17,480
Speaker 6: because like head teachers are paid so much more than teachers,

2397
01:59:17,880 --> 01:59:21,480
Speaker 6: and yeah, they're also like administrative. I don't know if

2398
01:59:21,600 --> 01:59:24,520
Speaker 6: like head teachers need to have even ever actually taught,

2399
01:59:25,120 --> 01:59:28,560
Speaker 6: but they're generally like really comfortable, very well paid, and

2400
01:59:28,720 --> 01:59:32,200
Speaker 6: they are there to to yeah, do a lot of

2401
01:59:32,200 --> 01:59:38,200
Speaker 6: administrative stuff and often like they're quite political, so specifically

2402
01:59:38,280 --> 01:59:40,880
Speaker 6: giving the power to say no to whether a kid

2403
01:59:40,960 --> 01:59:43,200
Speaker 6: comes out or not to the head teacher. Is like

2404
01:59:44,640 --> 01:59:47,120
Speaker 6: that feels very very deliberate on the other part of

2405
01:59:47,160 --> 01:59:51,920
Speaker 6: the Tory government, right, because like that's not it's not

2406
01:59:52,080 --> 01:59:55,560
Speaker 6: like your your your form tutor or you know, your

2407
01:59:55,680 --> 01:59:57,840
Speaker 6: whichever preferred teacher that you have lots of classes with

2408
01:59:58,000 --> 02:00:00,320
Speaker 6: your English teacher or whatever, like someone who's sees you

2409
02:00:00,520 --> 02:00:01,600
Speaker 6: maybe most days.

2410
02:00:02,200 --> 02:00:02,480
Speaker 3: It's this.

2411
02:00:02,720 --> 02:00:04,960
Speaker 6: It's this person who's like a figure ahead to the school,

2412
02:00:06,160 --> 02:00:09,480
Speaker 6: who has no personal relationship to you whatsoever, is being

2413
02:00:09,520 --> 02:00:12,400
Speaker 6: given this this uh yeah, this ability to just deny

2414
02:00:12,480 --> 02:00:15,400
Speaker 6: your transition, and that's utterly, utterly fucked And like I'm saying,

2415
02:00:15,440 --> 02:00:19,760
Speaker 6: it's a very conscious like class move, class based move

2416
02:00:19,840 --> 02:00:21,280
Speaker 6: on the in this guidance, I.

2417
02:00:21,320 --> 02:00:23,600
Speaker 3: Think, Yeah, I mean, it really seems like they had to,

2418
02:00:25,760 --> 02:00:30,160
Speaker 3: you know, it seems like a thing where the Tory

2419
02:00:30,200 --> 02:00:33,800
Speaker 3: government realized they couldn't rely just on regular teachers to

2420
02:00:33,840 --> 02:00:35,800
Speaker 3: act as gender bureaucrats. They had to they had to

2421
02:00:35,920 --> 02:00:40,440
Speaker 3: find someone who is like even like who has just

2422
02:00:40,600 --> 02:00:44,680
Speaker 3: no social attachment or social relations to like the actual

2423
02:00:44,800 --> 02:00:47,840
Speaker 3: kid who's trying to transition. Yeah, totally, you know, like

2424
02:00:47,920 --> 02:00:53,040
Speaker 3: it it is genuinely, Like I don't know, most like

2425
02:00:53,200 --> 02:00:56,120
Speaker 3: as as like as shit as teachers can be, like

2426
02:00:56,360 --> 02:00:59,800
Speaker 3: generally speaking, like your teacher does not want to torture

2427
02:00:59,800 --> 02:01:03,440
Speaker 3: their kids. That's like, that's not that's not that's that's

2428
02:01:03,520 --> 02:01:05,200
Speaker 3: usually not a thing that they want to do.

2429
02:01:06,040 --> 02:01:07,360
Speaker 6: And I and I and I don't want to leave

2430
02:01:07,360 --> 02:01:10,520
Speaker 6: it on said, Like I've been through the UK education system,

2431
02:01:10,680 --> 02:01:13,520
Speaker 6: I've encountered some teachers who definitely just want to torture

2432
02:01:13,520 --> 02:01:18,000
Speaker 6: their kids. Like but like again, most teachers are actually

2433
02:01:18,040 --> 02:01:22,400
Speaker 6: pretty good and like genuinely concerned with not only like

2434
02:01:22,480 --> 02:01:27,320
Speaker 6: what the safeguarding like rules say and what the protocols are,

2435
02:01:27,400 --> 02:01:30,840
Speaker 6: but like actually the moral duty of taking care of

2436
02:01:30,960 --> 02:01:35,080
Speaker 6: kids and making sure they're actually safe. Now that still

2437
02:01:35,160 --> 02:01:38,040
Speaker 6: can can can have problems. So like one person that

2438
02:01:38,080 --> 02:01:39,680
Speaker 6: I talked to, one of my friends, who was out

2439
02:01:40,960 --> 02:01:45,040
Speaker 6: when she was really quite young, she had like a

2440
02:01:46,640 --> 02:01:51,760
Speaker 6: a teaching assistant. So when kids are are like struggling

2441
02:01:51,800 --> 02:01:54,520
Speaker 6: in school and they need extra help with with with

2442
02:01:54,640 --> 02:01:59,040
Speaker 6: with their school work, sometimes like some lessons or topics

2443
02:01:59,080 --> 02:02:01,920
Speaker 6: are deemed as kind of like less necessary for them.

2444
02:02:02,000 --> 02:02:06,440
Speaker 6: Let's say maybe it's like their religious education lessons or whatever. Right,

2445
02:02:06,520 --> 02:02:07,960
Speaker 6: So they get to skip those ones, and then they

2446
02:02:08,000 --> 02:02:09,680
Speaker 6: go and do like I think you might call them

2447
02:02:09,720 --> 02:02:13,000
Speaker 6: remedial classes or whatever, like they're doing extra extra stuff

2448
02:02:13,000 --> 02:02:15,120
Speaker 6: to make sure that they supper classes they can get

2449
02:02:15,160 --> 02:02:17,920
Speaker 6: the basic Yeah, but it's within the school hours all

2450
02:02:18,000 --> 02:02:21,000
Speaker 6: I'm saying. So it's like they'll sort of say, you

2451
02:02:21,040 --> 02:02:22,480
Speaker 6: don't need to bother with this one. We'll go and

2452
02:02:22,560 --> 02:02:25,320
Speaker 6: do these classes instead to make sure that you can

2453
02:02:25,400 --> 02:02:30,600
Speaker 6: get like a passing grade in English. And so that's

2454
02:02:30,640 --> 02:02:33,280
Speaker 6: a person like a kid like that will have like

2455
02:02:33,720 --> 02:02:36,320
Speaker 6: the most developed a relationship too, because firstly, they are

2456
02:02:36,440 --> 02:02:39,520
Speaker 6: in every class that they sit through, and they also

2457
02:02:39,600 --> 02:02:42,640
Speaker 6: do special classes that is just one and one between

2458
02:02:42,680 --> 02:02:45,440
Speaker 6: the kid and that teaching assistant. So my friend said

2459
02:02:45,520 --> 02:02:48,600
Speaker 6: that she had like she'd come out to this teaching assistant,

2460
02:02:49,600 --> 02:02:52,560
Speaker 6: and the TA made it really clear that like she

2461
02:02:52,640 --> 02:02:54,960
Speaker 6: would have to try like sort of escalate this, like

2462
02:02:55,040 --> 02:02:57,960
Speaker 6: she would have to try to talk to more people

2463
02:02:58,000 --> 02:03:00,760
Speaker 6: about this situation and probably talk to her parents, And

2464
02:03:00,880 --> 02:03:04,520
Speaker 6: because of that, she sort of took it back, stopped

2465
02:03:04,560 --> 02:03:06,840
Speaker 6: talking about it, wouldn't go any further with it, and

2466
02:03:06,920 --> 02:03:09,520
Speaker 6: didn't come out to more people for a really long

2467
02:03:09,640 --> 02:03:11,840
Speaker 6: like for years after that point, and so you know,

2468
02:03:12,000 --> 02:03:16,000
Speaker 6: like you can already see that's an impact like that

2469
02:03:16,080 --> 02:03:18,640
Speaker 6: this will have more directly because that's like that situation

2470
02:03:18,840 --> 02:03:23,920
Speaker 6: is being described as the ideal outcome basically in some

2471
02:03:24,040 --> 02:03:26,400
Speaker 6: of this guidance. But I think also like it's important

2472
02:03:26,440 --> 02:03:29,520
Speaker 6: to acknowledge that we can imagine a best case scenario

2473
02:03:29,840 --> 02:03:33,480
Speaker 6: in my friend's story, like from however long ago, that

2474
02:03:33,680 --> 02:03:36,560
Speaker 6: maybe that Ta talks to other teachers who understand, and

2475
02:03:36,680 --> 02:03:40,560
Speaker 6: those teachers automatically think, like, are her parents going to

2476
02:03:40,600 --> 02:03:43,720
Speaker 6: be understanding? Can we approach this in a way that

2477
02:03:43,760 --> 02:03:45,640
Speaker 6: gives her space, Can we get her in touch with

2478
02:03:45,720 --> 02:03:49,080
Speaker 6: maybe like people who do youth work with queer kids,

2479
02:03:49,240 --> 02:03:51,680
Speaker 6: to like give her a venue to discuss this stuff

2480
02:03:52,240 --> 02:03:55,600
Speaker 6: without having to alert her parents. Now, so and we

2481
02:03:55,680 --> 02:03:57,880
Speaker 6: can imagine that best case scenario. I mean, like the

2482
02:03:57,960 --> 02:04:01,120
Speaker 6: impact immediately, like I said, was that she didn't come

2483
02:04:01,120 --> 02:04:05,120
Speaker 6: out for a long time. But but like that best

2484
02:04:05,160 --> 02:04:08,040
Speaker 6: case scenario is effectively eliminated if like the guidance is

2485
02:04:08,160 --> 02:04:10,320
Speaker 6: just like no, you have to tell the parents. The

2486
02:04:10,400 --> 02:04:15,520
Speaker 6: parents absolutely definitely must know. And I think that the

2487
02:04:15,800 --> 02:04:19,240
Speaker 6: thing as well about like no keeping like not keeping

2488
02:04:19,280 --> 02:04:21,440
Speaker 6: anything secret from parents. Let me just say what I

2489
02:04:21,480 --> 02:04:24,360
Speaker 6: say no hiding changes from parents. Is I think that,

2490
02:04:24,560 --> 02:04:27,040
Speaker 6: like that's a guidance that's pointing not just towards like

2491
02:04:27,120 --> 02:04:30,480
Speaker 6: the administrative part, like you're saying with what seems more

2492
02:04:30,480 --> 02:04:33,160
Speaker 6: in the jurisdiction of a gender bureaucrat, Like if a

2493
02:04:33,320 --> 02:04:35,240
Speaker 6: kid says, I'd like to change my name on the

2494
02:04:35,280 --> 02:04:38,800
Speaker 6: class register, but like if a teacher knows that the

2495
02:04:38,920 --> 02:04:42,120
Speaker 6: kids are using a different name and pronounce with their friends,

2496
02:04:42,440 --> 02:04:46,360
Speaker 6: right anyway, besides all of that, Like again, if we're

2497
02:04:46,400 --> 02:04:49,000
Speaker 6: imagining that best case scenario, like this thing about the

2498
02:04:49,120 --> 02:04:51,840
Speaker 6: head teacher can decide that their transition would be a

2499
02:04:51,920 --> 02:04:56,640
Speaker 6: danger to other kids, Like that's that's that's so above

2500
02:04:56,680 --> 02:04:59,160
Speaker 6: and beyond, like that's that's the that's the bit of

2501
02:04:59,240 --> 02:05:02,080
Speaker 6: this guidance that I find to be like probably the

2502
02:05:02,200 --> 02:05:07,080
Speaker 6: most the most utterly morally reprehensible is because because I

2503
02:05:07,160 --> 02:05:09,440
Speaker 6: think that a lot of trans kids are already familiar

2504
02:05:09,520 --> 02:05:13,240
Speaker 6: with how the pre existing safeguarding systems could cause them

2505
02:05:13,240 --> 02:05:15,840
Speaker 6: all these problems. But this is a new thing that's

2506
02:05:16,000 --> 02:05:18,640
Speaker 6: just like on top of all of that stuff. Even

2507
02:05:18,680 --> 02:05:22,200
Speaker 6: if you do have even if you do have support

2508
02:05:22,360 --> 02:05:25,400
Speaker 6: and like things are relatively okay for you, apparently, Yeah,

2509
02:05:25,440 --> 02:05:28,280
Speaker 6: the head teacher can just decide that you're not allowed

2510
02:05:28,320 --> 02:05:31,840
Speaker 6: to and that's that's utterly, utterly insane to me. Have

2511
02:05:31,920 --> 02:05:34,240
Speaker 6: another friend who was out when he was younger. He

2512
02:05:34,360 --> 02:05:36,200
Speaker 6: knew from a very young age he actually was lucky

2513
02:05:36,280 --> 02:05:38,840
Speaker 6: enough to have supportive parents and so like he was

2514
02:05:38,880 --> 02:05:40,440
Speaker 6: able to come out to people and come out to

2515
02:05:40,520 --> 02:05:46,440
Speaker 6: his parents. But even with supportive parents like he like that,

2516
02:05:46,720 --> 02:05:49,480
Speaker 6: there was still massive pushback from the school, which is like,

2517
02:05:50,080 --> 02:05:53,280
Speaker 6: you know, again, like it seems utterly ridiculous if you've

2518
02:05:53,320 --> 02:05:56,880
Speaker 6: got both the kids saying very clearly, I know for

2519
02:05:57,000 --> 02:06:00,880
Speaker 6: sure this sort of deal is, and like we have

2520
02:06:00,960 --> 02:06:04,000
Speaker 6: additional hindsight here that he's very happy with himself now

2521
02:06:04,080 --> 02:06:07,240
Speaker 6: and has been, you know, living his authentic life for

2522
02:06:07,440 --> 02:06:10,840
Speaker 6: you know how many years. But like, but you know,

2523
02:06:10,920 --> 02:06:13,160
Speaker 6: all this support around him at the time, and the

2524
02:06:13,320 --> 02:06:16,680
Speaker 6: and the school still says no, they're just yeah, the

2525
02:06:16,960 --> 02:06:21,080
Speaker 6: head teacher thing is actively pushing that even harder. And

2526
02:06:21,160 --> 02:06:25,040
Speaker 6: I just find that, yeah, just awful. Yeah, you know

2527
02:06:25,120 --> 02:06:29,280
Speaker 6: what else is awful? Living under capitalism and being bombarded

2528
02:06:29,320 --> 02:06:32,120
Speaker 6: with adverts for products and services. But the products and

2529
02:06:32,160 --> 02:06:34,400
Speaker 6: services themselves they're great, Isn't that right?

2530
02:06:34,440 --> 02:06:34,720
Speaker 7: Mayah.

2531
02:06:35,000 --> 02:06:41,680
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, I am legally contractually required to not disparage

2532
02:06:42,560 --> 02:06:45,400
Speaker 3: the products and services that support this podcast.

2533
02:06:46,880 --> 02:06:49,160
Speaker 6: This brought this podcast brought to you by open Gate.

2534
02:06:49,960 --> 02:06:56,040
Speaker 3: Wow, we're back. Hopefully several more billionaires have been pins

2535
02:06:56,120 --> 02:06:57,240
Speaker 3: take to the bottom of the sea.

2536
02:06:58,040 --> 02:07:02,879
Speaker 6: Uh yeah, I'm so glad. So many, so many billionaires

2537
02:07:02,960 --> 02:07:06,120
Speaker 6: listened to it could happen here and took that juicy

2538
02:07:06,400 --> 02:07:10,880
Speaker 6: limited time offer to only pay two hundred thousand dollars

2539
02:07:11,240 --> 02:07:16,880
Speaker 6: for a ticket on the next submersible. Yeah. Like, following

2540
02:07:16,920 --> 02:07:18,040
Speaker 6: up from what I was just saying about my friend

2541
02:07:18,080 --> 02:07:19,600
Speaker 6: who was out when he was a kid and had

2542
02:07:19,600 --> 02:07:24,560
Speaker 6: supportive parents, he also highlighted to me how it impacted

2543
02:07:24,600 --> 02:07:27,440
Speaker 6: his medical transition at the time as well, because a

2544
02:07:27,520 --> 02:07:29,720
Speaker 6: lot of medical systems for a transition, and this is

2545
02:07:29,760 --> 02:07:33,560
Speaker 6: true in the UK, use some degree of like social

2546
02:07:33,640 --> 02:07:37,400
Speaker 6: transition as a requirement to prescribe any kind of medical transition.

2547
02:07:37,800 --> 02:07:41,160
Speaker 6: And so if you're a kid and you you know

2548
02:07:41,320 --> 02:07:42,880
Speaker 6: for sure this is your deal, and you want to

2549
02:07:42,960 --> 02:07:45,160
Speaker 6: avoid the traumas are going through the wrong puberty, which

2550
02:07:45,200 --> 02:07:50,440
Speaker 6: obviously is just like absolutely horrifying, then you need to

2551
02:07:51,600 --> 02:07:54,120
Speaker 6: be out and have the support of everyone around you, right,

2552
02:07:54,240 --> 02:07:57,760
Speaker 6: and that means like not only you need to be

2553
02:07:57,800 --> 02:08:00,960
Speaker 6: able to evidence like yeah, it's going well at school

2554
02:08:01,000 --> 02:08:05,240
Speaker 6: and not being bullied for being trans at all, which okay, yeah,

2555
02:08:05,400 --> 02:08:10,040
Speaker 6: like hopefully not. And I have supportive parents, my all

2556
02:08:10,120 --> 02:08:12,400
Speaker 6: my grandparents know as well and they're all on board

2557
02:08:12,480 --> 02:08:15,640
Speaker 6: or whatever. Like, but like if a school can just

2558
02:08:15,720 --> 02:08:18,240
Speaker 6: say no to a kid coming out, that's like that

2559
02:08:18,400 --> 02:08:22,600
Speaker 6: denies such a huge part of the social transition, which

2560
02:08:22,840 --> 02:08:24,920
Speaker 6: will then stop them from being able to medically transition.

2561
02:08:25,200 --> 02:08:26,720
Speaker 3: And like I'm you know, we.

2562
02:08:29,400 --> 02:08:31,280
Speaker 6: Maybe sis people need the spelling out, so I'll just

2563
02:08:31,320 --> 02:08:34,080
Speaker 6: say it, like if you can't. So if you can't

2564
02:08:34,160 --> 02:08:37,800
Speaker 6: medically transition, you're less likely to be well accepted in

2565
02:08:37,880 --> 02:08:41,120
Speaker 6: your social transition. So there's a really deliberate like catch

2566
02:08:41,240 --> 02:08:44,720
Speaker 6: twenty two of if you you know, of stopping someone's

2567
02:08:44,720 --> 02:08:47,880
Speaker 6: social transition and therefore stopping their medical transition and therefore right,

2568
02:08:47,960 --> 02:08:51,040
Speaker 6: it's just it's just trying to stop trans people existing altogether.

2569
02:08:52,000 --> 02:08:54,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I mean I think it's sort of particularly

2570
02:08:54,560 --> 02:09:01,040
Speaker 3: grim in the UK system, where you like, it's way harder.

2571
02:09:01,880 --> 02:09:05,120
Speaker 3: Two well, okay, outside of the places where it's been

2572
02:09:05,240 --> 02:09:08,000
Speaker 3: made increasingly legal. In the US, it is way way

2573
02:09:08,160 --> 02:09:12,200
Speaker 3: harder to get, like to just to get Jennifer mccare

2574
02:09:12,280 --> 02:09:15,839
Speaker 3: in the UK, and it requires a lot of bullshit

2575
02:09:16,080 --> 02:09:20,120
Speaker 3: that like you don't have in the US, and it's

2576
02:09:20,160 --> 02:09:24,960
Speaker 3: it's much it's much much more like pathologized, which is

2577
02:09:25,080 --> 02:09:27,960
Speaker 3: kind of insane because it's it's pretty pathologized in the

2578
02:09:28,080 --> 02:09:30,480
Speaker 3: US too. But the UK is like like has has

2579
02:09:30,560 --> 02:09:33,480
Speaker 3: has cranked up the like gender bureaucracy level to like

2580
02:09:35,000 --> 02:09:36,920
Speaker 3: they they they they found that they found the one

2581
02:09:36,960 --> 02:09:39,320
Speaker 3: that goes to eleven and we're like, fuck this ship

2582
02:09:39,360 --> 02:09:41,480
Speaker 3: when this need this needs like two hundred more dials.

2583
02:09:43,040 --> 02:09:45,880
Speaker 6: Yeah, it's all it's looking at out looking at our country,

2584
02:09:45,920 --> 02:09:47,960
Speaker 6: you might you might be led to the the the

2585
02:09:48,400 --> 02:09:52,200
Speaker 6: idea that we've been practicing uh, bureaucracy based fascism for

2586
02:09:52,680 --> 02:09:54,400
Speaker 6: hundreds of years already and gotten it down to the

2587
02:09:54,520 --> 02:09:58,840
Speaker 6: precise science. And well that's a that's a conclusion you

2588
02:09:58,880 --> 02:10:03,440
Speaker 6: could draw. Yeah. I was gonna say as well, Like

2589
02:10:04,680 --> 02:10:07,120
Speaker 6: we talked last time, I was on about like why

2590
02:10:07,280 --> 02:10:10,200
Speaker 6: is the UK like this in general? And I think

2591
02:10:10,240 --> 02:10:14,800
Speaker 6: that it's worth putting this into this puzzle piece, into

2592
02:10:14,920 --> 02:10:20,280
Speaker 6: a broader picture, right, Like we've just had a national

2593
02:10:20,320 --> 02:10:23,440
Speaker 6: story about a woman who is being prosecuted for having

2594
02:10:23,440 --> 02:10:27,360
Speaker 6: an abortion later than the allowed the allowed limits in

2595
02:10:27,400 --> 02:10:32,120
Speaker 6: British law, which is obviously the beginning of the right

2596
02:10:32,160 --> 02:10:36,560
Speaker 6: wing trying to push back on abortion. At the same time,

2597
02:10:36,760 --> 02:10:39,320
Speaker 6: Like a few weeks ago here Americans probably haven't heard

2598
02:10:39,320 --> 02:10:40,920
Speaker 6: about it, but there was a place in London called

2599
02:10:40,920 --> 02:10:44,960
Speaker 6: the Autonomous, a winter shelter. So this was some anarchists

2600
02:10:45,040 --> 02:10:47,800
Speaker 6: who some of whom I think we've interviewed on Red

2601
02:10:47,840 --> 02:10:51,240
Speaker 6: Planet before, who go kind of place to place and

2602
02:10:51,320 --> 02:10:54,440
Speaker 6: they squat on unoccupied buildings and they turned them into

2603
02:10:55,080 --> 02:10:57,640
Speaker 6: various things. But one thing they've repeatedly done is during

2604
02:10:57,720 --> 02:11:00,840
Speaker 6: winter periods turned them into homeless shelters that they run

2605
02:11:00,880 --> 02:11:04,560
Speaker 6: as autonomous shelters. And basically it got to the spring

2606
02:11:04,640 --> 02:11:07,800
Speaker 6: and they still hadn't moved out of this place because

2607
02:11:08,040 --> 02:11:09,760
Speaker 6: I mean, there were still homeless people that they wanted

2608
02:11:09,760 --> 02:11:14,640
Speaker 6: to help, and so the Metropolitan Police, London's finest sent down,

2609
02:11:14,760 --> 02:11:18,240
Speaker 6: you know, like dozens of pigs in riot gear to

2610
02:11:18,720 --> 02:11:22,200
Speaker 6: forcibly like evict them. And I just think that like

2611
02:11:23,200 --> 02:11:28,760
Speaker 6: it's really it's just really important to see the premise

2612
02:11:28,840 --> 02:11:32,560
Speaker 6: that like states are aware that they are policing the collapse, right,

2613
02:11:33,360 --> 02:11:35,320
Speaker 6: will be very familiar to your audience. But I think

2614
02:11:35,360 --> 02:11:38,880
Speaker 6: there's the specific context of Fortress Europe going on with

2615
02:11:38,960 --> 02:11:42,520
Speaker 6: Britain because like, even though Britain has brexited itself out,

2616
02:11:42,640 --> 02:11:44,920
Speaker 6: like we're still we still have a lot of the

2617
02:11:45,800 --> 02:11:48,760
Speaker 6: same concerns in right wing politics that drive the thinking

2618
02:11:48,840 --> 02:11:50,720
Speaker 6: of Fortress Europe, and so a lot of our like

2619
02:11:51,120 --> 02:11:56,600
Speaker 6: for instance, immigration stuff is increasingly draconian and fascy. And

2620
02:11:56,680 --> 02:11:58,840
Speaker 6: I just think that like putting these three pieces together,

2621
02:11:58,840 --> 02:12:00,000
Speaker 6: we can kind of see a bit of what's going on,

2622
02:12:00,360 --> 02:12:03,840
Speaker 6: like the government actively trying to clamp down on people's

2623
02:12:03,840 --> 02:12:07,040
Speaker 6: bodily autonomy, trying to stop any other kind of gender

2624
02:12:07,120 --> 02:12:10,840
Speaker 6: expression being in place, and also trying to like stop

2625
02:12:10,920 --> 02:12:14,160
Speaker 6: people from doing mutual aid and organizing that will lessen

2626
02:12:14,200 --> 02:12:16,480
Speaker 6: the impact of of the collapse.

2627
02:12:17,720 --> 02:12:19,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, and well, and I think this is a it's

2628
02:12:19,520 --> 02:12:21,600
Speaker 3: a very deliberate you know, one of the things that

2629
02:12:21,640 --> 02:12:26,280
Speaker 3: I think is very common you know, like across the

2630
02:12:26,360 --> 02:12:30,720
Speaker 3: sort of like broad historical sweep of movements, right is okay,

2631
02:12:30,760 --> 02:12:35,080
Speaker 3: so well, okay, so the the the number one thing

2632
02:12:35,160 --> 02:12:37,880
Speaker 3: you do if when there's a massive social rument going on,

2633
02:12:37,960 --> 02:12:39,520
Speaker 3: you need to stop it that the first the like

2634
02:12:40,200 --> 02:12:42,600
Speaker 3: the sort of like most dramatic thing you do is

2635
02:12:42,640 --> 02:12:45,120
Speaker 3: you start a war. So for example, like you know,

2636
02:12:45,240 --> 02:12:47,520
Speaker 3: the the American movements of the sixties are immediately followed

2637
02:12:47,560 --> 02:12:50,760
Speaker 3: by the massive attenis ucation of Vietnam. I think, like

2638
02:12:50,840 --> 02:12:53,000
Speaker 3: the most blatant example that I could think of is

2639
02:12:53,520 --> 02:12:56,760
Speaker 3: in two thousand and six in Mexico, you have simultaneously

2640
02:12:56,840 --> 02:13:02,200
Speaker 3: this massive zapatista campaign. You have Omlo like basically declaring

2641
02:13:02,200 --> 02:13:04,600
Speaker 3: it well, there there's a contested election in Ombla like

2642
02:13:04,640 --> 02:13:07,840
Speaker 3: declares him self president even though like technically lost the election.

2643
02:13:08,360 --> 02:13:11,040
Speaker 3: And then simultaneously, like the city of Wahaka like does

2644
02:13:11,080 --> 02:13:13,360
Speaker 3: an uprising and take control of the city. Wow, and

2645
02:13:14,120 --> 02:13:15,800
Speaker 3: and like and like they they they hold the city

2646
02:13:15,880 --> 02:13:21,680
Speaker 3: for like one hundred days. And basically immediately after the

2647
02:13:21,880 --> 02:13:25,560
Speaker 3: like so the Mexican Army gets deployed and like takes

2648
02:13:25,640 --> 02:13:29,080
Speaker 3: back the city. And immediately after the like the the like,

2649
02:13:29,240 --> 02:13:31,520
Speaker 3: the the the the full on like entrance of the

2650
02:13:31,600 --> 02:13:34,840
Speaker 3: Mexican army into the war on drug starts. And this

2651
02:13:35,000 --> 02:13:36,280
Speaker 3: is like this is you know, this is a sort

2652
02:13:36,280 --> 02:13:38,200
Speaker 3: of very a very very common social pattern. Right of

2653
02:13:38,640 --> 02:13:41,520
Speaker 3: the way, the the way the way you defeat, you know,

2654
02:13:41,600 --> 02:13:43,840
Speaker 3: I mean just literally like straight up uprisings is by

2655
02:13:44,000 --> 02:13:46,960
Speaker 3: doing like one is, by doing a war. The second

2656
02:13:47,040 --> 02:13:51,440
Speaker 3: thing you can do is you start you you you

2657
02:13:51,600 --> 02:13:54,800
Speaker 3: you you pivot away from the social issues that are

2658
02:13:54,960 --> 02:13:57,920
Speaker 3: like that sort of your mass protesters, your uprisings are about,

2659
02:13:58,520 --> 02:14:01,160
Speaker 3: and you go back to domestic politics and you go

2660
02:14:01,240 --> 02:14:04,080
Speaker 3: back into social reproduction. You attack them there. So you know,

2661
02:14:04,160 --> 02:14:05,720
Speaker 3: I mean like it like China has a good example

2662
02:14:05,760 --> 02:14:08,120
Speaker 3: of this of like all all of this sort of

2663
02:14:08,320 --> 02:14:11,280
Speaker 3: like discontent that had been boiling around the country revolution

2664
02:14:11,440 --> 02:14:14,680
Speaker 3: and around you know, like like things around like things

2665
02:14:14,680 --> 02:14:17,440
Speaker 3: about gender roles, which was you know, like actually genuinely

2666
02:14:17,480 --> 02:14:19,240
Speaker 3: happening at that time. All of the sort of upheaval

2667
02:14:19,960 --> 02:14:23,080
Speaker 3: is capped off by the one child policy. Yes, or

2668
02:14:23,120 --> 02:14:24,600
Speaker 3: if you know, I mean we go back to the

2669
02:14:24,720 --> 02:14:26,520
Speaker 3: US for a second, right, we have twenty twenty, we

2670
02:14:26,560 --> 02:14:30,200
Speaker 3: have this massive uprising. Immediately after the uprising, we get

2671
02:14:30,600 --> 02:14:34,840
Speaker 3: all of the anti transhit intensifies, so like just unbelievably

2672
02:14:34,960 --> 02:14:38,560
Speaker 3: enormously right, yeah, and then this this is incredibly deliberate

2673
02:14:38,760 --> 02:14:41,240
Speaker 3: in a lot of ways. It's it's you know, it's

2674
02:14:41,320 --> 02:14:46,120
Speaker 3: it's it's it's very very concrete attempt to like reassert

2675
02:14:46,200 --> 02:14:50,840
Speaker 3: sort of patriarchal and cist gender control over people over

2676
02:14:51,000 --> 02:14:54,800
Speaker 3: sort of families, over over sort of society writ large.

2677
02:14:55,160 --> 02:14:57,200
Speaker 6: That was part of my point is that like is

2678
02:14:57,360 --> 02:14:59,720
Speaker 6: how we can see what the what the British state

2679
02:14:59,760 --> 02:15:02,200
Speaker 6: is up to, very very clearly, like they they are

2680
02:15:02,280 --> 02:15:05,160
Speaker 6: trying to create a more rigid control in their population.

2681
02:15:05,680 --> 02:15:09,320
Speaker 6: And you know this is why I mean like calling

2682
02:15:09,360 --> 02:15:11,280
Speaker 6: it turf Island, but like a lot of turfs will

2683
02:15:11,320 --> 02:15:13,920
Speaker 6: pretend that they you know, will fight for abortion rights

2684
02:15:13,960 --> 02:15:16,880
Speaker 6: or whatever. Actually there was a protest to do with

2685
02:15:17,040 --> 02:15:19,080
Speaker 6: the to do with that abortion case I mentioned the

2686
02:15:19,160 --> 02:15:22,360
Speaker 6: other day, and a bunch of a bunch of like

2687
02:15:22,720 --> 02:15:26,360
Speaker 6: anarchists and like trans people showed up, and there was

2688
02:15:26,440 --> 02:15:29,160
Speaker 6: also some people from Women's Place, who is a tough organization,

2689
02:15:29,680 --> 02:15:33,680
Speaker 6: and like then and so obviously like they were trying

2690
02:15:33,680 --> 02:15:35,880
Speaker 6: to like box them out and be like kiss off,

2691
02:15:35,920 --> 02:15:41,080
Speaker 6: you don't belong here. And then like a far right

2692
02:15:41,200 --> 02:15:43,920
Speaker 6: like preacher showed up with like anti abortion stuff and

2693
02:15:43,960 --> 02:15:46,880
Speaker 6: a megaphone and trying to like and so obviously like

2694
02:15:47,120 --> 02:15:50,760
Speaker 6: all of the all of the transactivists, the the authentic

2695
02:15:50,880 --> 02:15:54,920
Speaker 6: leftists like started it's like getting in that guy's way

2696
02:15:54,960 --> 02:15:56,720
Speaker 6: and ruining his day and making it so he couldn't

2697
02:15:56,720 --> 02:15:58,840
Speaker 6: do any of his stuff, and obviously the Turfs don't

2698
02:15:58,880 --> 02:16:00,640
Speaker 6: care at all. Like then yeah, they're not there to

2699
02:16:00,720 --> 02:16:05,600
Speaker 6: actually fight against anything. But you know, especially so when

2700
02:16:05,600 --> 02:16:07,280
Speaker 6: you when you look at that bigger picture, like I say,

2701
02:16:07,320 --> 02:16:10,400
Speaker 6: it's just like if you're looking at the bigger picture,

2702
02:16:10,480 --> 02:16:13,200
Speaker 6: you can tell there is no there there is no

2703
02:16:13,560 --> 02:16:17,120
Speaker 6: divide between like the bodily autonomy of sis women and

2704
02:16:17,360 --> 02:16:20,160
Speaker 6: for that matter, like transmask and non binary people with

2705
02:16:20,520 --> 02:16:22,280
Speaker 6: who are who are as signed female at birth, you know,

2706
02:16:22,360 --> 02:16:24,720
Speaker 6: and and trans rights. There's no conflict at all. It's

2707
02:16:25,080 --> 02:16:28,200
Speaker 6: it's the state is trying to crack down on bodily

2708
02:16:28,200 --> 02:16:30,520
Speaker 6: autonomy and on gender expression as part of a bigger

2709
02:16:30,560 --> 02:16:35,280
Speaker 6: project of you know, implementing more authoritarianism. And I don't know,

2710
02:16:35,320 --> 02:16:37,160
Speaker 6: I guess like that there's a feeling I keep on

2711
02:16:37,240 --> 02:16:41,440
Speaker 6: running up against recently, which is just like waiting for

2712
02:16:41,640 --> 02:16:45,880
Speaker 6: the waiting for disparate leftist causes to kind of realize

2713
02:16:46,280 --> 02:16:50,440
Speaker 6: and act like all of this stuff is is one side,

2714
02:16:50,600 --> 02:16:52,560
Speaker 6: you know, Like it's very clear, like because from the

2715
02:16:52,600 --> 02:16:54,920
Speaker 6: state's point of view, as you're saying, like starting a

2716
02:16:55,040 --> 02:17:02,080
Speaker 6: war tightening immigration policies, starting abortion, cracking down on quick people,

2717
02:17:02,160 --> 02:17:04,280
Speaker 6: Like all of these are, from the state's point of view,

2718
02:17:05,800 --> 02:17:10,080
Speaker 6: methods within methods in their toolbox to achieve one greater goal.

2719
02:17:11,000 --> 02:17:14,640
Speaker 6: And I think that like we need well, I mean

2720
02:17:14,800 --> 02:17:16,680
Speaker 6: to say we need class consciousness would be you know,

2721
02:17:16,959 --> 02:17:19,560
Speaker 6: just like it seems too obvious to say even but

2722
02:17:19,680 --> 02:17:21,520
Speaker 6: like we do, we need we need a consciousness of

2723
02:17:21,800 --> 02:17:25,120
Speaker 6: the fact that, like these issues affect everyone, even if

2724
02:17:25,160 --> 02:17:27,920
Speaker 6: it seems like it doesn't affect you in your everyday life.

2725
02:17:28,560 --> 02:17:31,560
Speaker 6: You know, if you were a cisht white man who's

2726
02:17:32,120 --> 02:17:36,440
Speaker 6: a self employed adult, utterly libertarian steel man, you don't

2727
02:17:36,480 --> 02:17:38,920
Speaker 6: depend on anyone like, it is still going to affect

2728
02:17:38,959 --> 02:17:41,879
Speaker 6: you because it is the state gaining more power over

2729
02:17:41,959 --> 02:17:45,200
Speaker 6: everybody by doing these things. One thing I want to

2730
02:17:45,200 --> 02:17:48,000
Speaker 6: say also about like the kids who I'd gotten some

2731
02:17:48,080 --> 02:17:50,440
Speaker 6: feedback from, was like there is a big mood among

2732
02:17:50,520 --> 02:17:53,520
Speaker 6: trans kids that like they'd been told that things were

2733
02:17:53,560 --> 02:17:56,320
Speaker 6: going to be getting better. So like when I said

2734
02:17:56,360 --> 02:17:58,440
Speaker 6: that that story with my friend who had the teaching assistant,

2735
02:17:58,520 --> 02:18:03,480
Speaker 6: she said that for her growing up, it was absolutely

2736
02:18:03,600 --> 02:18:06,320
Speaker 6: nightmarish and the bullying was really intense, and the support

2737
02:18:06,400 --> 02:18:10,480
Speaker 6: with the support from adults was non existent, and then

2738
02:18:10,560 --> 02:18:13,800
Speaker 6: there was a little window where like people started to

2739
02:18:13,800 --> 02:18:17,640
Speaker 6: become more aware of trans people and and from the

2740
02:18:17,720 --> 02:18:20,240
Speaker 6: liberal side and all of the like corporate pink washing

2741
02:18:20,280 --> 02:18:25,240
Speaker 6: and whatever, and it seemed like a broad like culture

2742
02:18:25,280 --> 02:18:28,240
Speaker 6: of acceptance is being brought in. And now it feels

2743
02:18:28,280 --> 02:18:30,200
Speaker 6: like that's being revoked. But like, you know, I mean

2744
02:18:30,680 --> 02:18:32,600
Speaker 6: how she put it was like she feels like it's

2745
02:18:32,680 --> 02:18:35,000
Speaker 6: just sort of back to normal because like that's what

2746
02:18:35,160 --> 02:18:37,840
Speaker 6: she already grew up with. But like I do, we

2747
02:18:37,920 --> 02:18:39,160
Speaker 6: have to think about it from the point of view

2748
02:18:39,160 --> 02:18:42,280
Speaker 6: of kids who are you know, trying to exist as

2749
02:18:42,400 --> 02:18:45,119
Speaker 6: trans kids right now, Like they have been told by

2750
02:18:46,040 --> 02:18:49,480
Speaker 6: by liberals that like things are getting better, we're aware

2751
02:18:49,520 --> 02:18:51,640
Speaker 6: of trans people. Now, we're going to fight for trans rites,

2752
02:18:52,360 --> 02:18:55,760
Speaker 6: and it's very clear that like they're not they're not

2753
02:18:55,840 --> 02:18:56,400
Speaker 6: getting better.

2754
02:18:58,160 --> 02:18:58,320
Speaker 5: You know.

2755
02:18:58,400 --> 02:19:01,959
Speaker 6: I just want to say, like two, uh, trans kids

2756
02:19:02,000 --> 02:19:04,600
Speaker 6: who might like might hear this, might get any of

2757
02:19:04,640 --> 02:19:08,360
Speaker 6: this sentiment that like I completely I completely feel it myself,

2758
02:19:08,640 --> 02:19:12,240
Speaker 6: Like having come out at the tail end of liberals

2759
02:19:12,280 --> 02:19:18,520
Speaker 6: being like, yeah, we love trannies, sorry, Daniel, Like having

2760
02:19:18,560 --> 02:19:20,320
Speaker 6: come out right at the tail end of that now

2761
02:19:20,520 --> 02:19:24,640
Speaker 6: ship's getting unbelievably bleak, Like I also feel that, and

2762
02:19:25,800 --> 02:19:28,520
Speaker 6: I I guess it's the the the saying about like

2763
02:19:28,600 --> 02:19:31,320
Speaker 6: don't let this, let this radicalize you rather than lead

2764
02:19:31,360 --> 02:19:34,800
Speaker 6: you to despair, because I from where I'm looking around

2765
02:19:34,879 --> 02:19:38,440
Speaker 6: myself as an adult, you know, a politically active and

2766
02:19:38,480 --> 02:19:41,760
Speaker 6: engaged adult, like there there aren't any answers in the

2767
02:19:42,160 --> 02:19:45,680
Speaker 6: in the like left liberal ooh, we're so multicultural and

2768
02:19:45,760 --> 02:19:49,680
Speaker 6: accepting kind of space. It's that's that's entirely dependent on profit.

2769
02:19:49,840 --> 02:19:52,680
Speaker 6: And you know, Target is emptying all the pride stuff

2770
02:19:52,720 --> 02:19:55,400
Speaker 6: out of their stores. Now, Capital does not care for

2771
02:19:55,440 --> 02:19:58,600
Speaker 6: the queers, but we we can care for each other.

2772
02:19:58,680 --> 02:20:01,320
Speaker 6: I think it's really important to say that, like, you know,

2773
02:20:01,440 --> 02:20:04,320
Speaker 6: finding queer community is really important, but that's you know,

2774
02:20:04,480 --> 02:20:08,200
Speaker 6: and that's obviously true. But also like queer community being

2775
02:20:09,200 --> 02:20:12,120
Speaker 6: like class conscious and radical and organized are also really

2776
02:20:12,160 --> 02:20:14,600
Speaker 6: really important. And you know, I am seeing that, Like

2777
02:20:14,680 --> 02:20:18,080
Speaker 6: I do want to say, like in covering this like

2778
02:20:18,240 --> 02:20:24,400
Speaker 6: obviously really grim situation that's being enforced like that, we're

2779
02:20:24,480 --> 02:20:27,160
Speaker 6: not just sitting by and letting it happen. It's just

2780
02:20:27,240 --> 02:20:31,320
Speaker 6: that we are like as leftists, we're always this just

2781
02:20:31,400 --> 02:20:34,880
Speaker 6: like tiny radical fringe for the time being, and so

2782
02:20:35,120 --> 02:20:39,520
Speaker 6: like we're doing what we can. I don't want I

2783
02:20:39,600 --> 02:20:41,080
Speaker 6: just don't want trans kids to feel like there are

2784
02:20:41,080 --> 02:20:46,760
Speaker 6: absolutely no adults who who are in the Venn diagram

2785
02:20:46,879 --> 02:20:52,039
Speaker 6: of like understanding how fucked this is and actually having

2786
02:20:52,080 --> 02:20:55,480
Speaker 6: a proportional idea of the solutions that are necessary. Now

2787
02:20:55,680 --> 02:20:58,560
Speaker 6: we're not also, unfortunately, like none of us are currently

2788
02:20:58,640 --> 02:21:01,560
Speaker 6: in the third the third ven diagram circle of like

2789
02:21:02,320 --> 02:21:05,440
Speaker 6: having the power to stop it yet, but we're doing

2790
02:21:05,440 --> 02:21:07,280
Speaker 6: everything that we can for the time being, right.

2791
02:21:08,320 --> 02:21:10,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, Well, and I think there's only thing that's kind

2792
02:21:10,480 --> 02:21:12,400
Speaker 3: of it's important to think about with this too, is

2793
02:21:12,520 --> 02:21:19,200
Speaker 3: like like the reason this is happening it like is

2794
02:21:19,560 --> 02:21:21,960
Speaker 3: is because like there was actually a period of time

2795
02:21:22,000 --> 02:21:24,360
Speaker 3: when we were winning, right, And this is I think

2796
02:21:24,360 --> 02:21:26,080
Speaker 3: particularly true in the US, but I mean I think

2797
02:21:26,120 --> 02:21:27,920
Speaker 3: it's still also true in the UK, right, Like it

2798
02:21:28,120 --> 02:21:31,920
Speaker 3: like the the reason there had to be a backlash

2799
02:21:32,080 --> 02:21:36,360
Speaker 3: like this was because like things weren't you know, for

2800
02:21:36,600 --> 02:21:39,000
Speaker 3: a brief amount of time getting better. But like even

2801
02:21:39,040 --> 02:21:40,560
Speaker 3: with how bad it is now, even with how bad

2802
02:21:40,600 --> 02:21:43,840
Speaker 3: it's getting, it's it's always like, you know, like being

2803
02:21:43,879 --> 02:21:45,640
Speaker 3: a leftist, it is always hard to sort of make

2804
02:21:46,000 --> 02:21:50,320
Speaker 3: like these kind of like liberal teleological like the moral

2805
02:21:50,400 --> 02:21:52,760
Speaker 3: arc of the universe, like Ben's sour justice arguments. But

2806
02:21:54,240 --> 02:21:57,080
Speaker 3: we are going to beat them. Yeah, it will. It

2807
02:21:57,160 --> 02:21:59,879
Speaker 3: will take time, It will take an enormous amount of struggle,

2808
02:22:00,480 --> 02:22:04,200
Speaker 3: but we are going to and absolutely, you know, and

2809
02:22:04,320 --> 02:22:07,440
Speaker 3: like and I think something that is very very very important,

2810
02:22:07,840 --> 02:22:10,200
Speaker 3: like this is not hopeless, like it is not. It

2811
02:22:10,560 --> 02:22:14,160
Speaker 3: is simply not. We have already achieved in one things

2812
02:22:14,200 --> 02:22:17,120
Speaker 3: that like our forefathers fucking only dreamed of. Right, yeah,

2813
02:22:17,280 --> 02:22:19,360
Speaker 3: as well we are going out.

2814
02:22:22,360 --> 02:22:24,920
Speaker 6: Yeah no, I mean I I think I I completely agree,

2815
02:22:25,000 --> 02:22:27,200
Speaker 6: and I want to like double down on what I'm

2816
02:22:27,200 --> 02:22:30,279
Speaker 6: saying about the liberals that, like I the liberal promise

2817
02:22:31,200 --> 02:22:34,400
Speaker 6: that you've been given, of of acceptance within like their

2818
02:22:34,480 --> 02:22:37,560
Speaker 6: framework that like Hillary Clinton will stand up and say

2819
02:22:37,680 --> 02:22:40,560
Speaker 6: she loves trans writes. Yes, that one was a lie,

2820
02:22:40,760 --> 02:22:45,000
Speaker 6: that was fucked. That was bullshit, liberals lie. I hope

2821
02:22:45,120 --> 02:22:47,600
Speaker 6: that you have already figured this out because I believe

2822
02:22:47,640 --> 02:22:51,400
Speaker 6: kids are smart enough to figure this out, because liberals

2823
02:22:51,520 --> 02:22:56,080
Speaker 6: love to lie. But like, in terms of it getting better,

2824
02:22:56,280 --> 02:22:59,880
Speaker 6: like it will, even if the way that it gets

2825
02:23:00,040 --> 02:23:03,400
Speaker 6: better is that like is that like we break free

2826
02:23:03,560 --> 02:23:06,080
Speaker 6: like is only in breaking free of these systems. Like

2827
02:23:06,400 --> 02:23:10,400
Speaker 6: it's it's I I Am not going to make any

2828
02:23:10,480 --> 02:23:13,320
Speaker 6: promises that like the society that we live in as

2829
02:23:13,400 --> 02:23:16,120
Speaker 6: it is now is going to is going to come

2830
02:23:16,200 --> 02:23:19,760
Speaker 6: back around and like will have trans people treated the

2831
02:23:19,800 --> 02:23:22,160
Speaker 6: way that the gay people were treated in the year

2832
02:23:22,200 --> 02:23:27,880
Speaker 6: two thousand. It's it's you know that one maybe, but

2833
02:23:28,160 --> 02:23:30,280
Speaker 6: like I'm not holding my breath for it, but like

2834
02:23:30,680 --> 02:23:33,000
Speaker 6: it will get better one way or another. And it

2835
02:23:33,080 --> 02:23:34,720
Speaker 6: may well be the way that get it gets better

2836
02:23:34,879 --> 02:23:39,879
Speaker 6: is that we have like stronger and more radical communities

2837
02:23:39,959 --> 02:23:42,560
Speaker 6: of mutual aid and care, and those those are the

2838
02:23:42,600 --> 02:23:46,000
Speaker 6: spaces where it's like, you know, safe and and good

2839
02:23:46,080 --> 02:23:49,039
Speaker 6: for trans people and possible for us to strive and thrive.

2840
02:23:52,360 --> 02:23:57,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I think, you know, I think this is

2841
02:23:57,760 --> 02:24:01,600
Speaker 3: something that like, I mean, you know, if you look

2842
02:24:01,680 --> 02:24:05,760
Speaker 3: back at sort of how the history of like like

2843
02:24:05,840 --> 02:24:07,040
Speaker 3: if if you look if you look at just like

2844
02:24:07,080 --> 02:24:09,000
Speaker 3: the history of sort of like gay rights, right, like

2845
02:24:10,000 --> 02:24:13,000
Speaker 3: a big part of what that looked like that has

2846
02:24:13,080 --> 02:24:16,880
Speaker 3: been sort of you know, just like wiped from the

2847
02:24:16,959 --> 02:24:19,879
Speaker 3: sort of public memory, right, Like the stuff people remember

2848
02:24:20,160 --> 02:24:22,240
Speaker 3: is you know that the sort of like really flashy

2849
02:24:23,280 --> 02:24:25,800
Speaker 3: activist stuff, But a huge part of what that looked

2850
02:24:25,920 --> 02:24:30,480
Speaker 3: like was just you know, I have a couch, right

2851
02:24:31,320 --> 02:24:34,119
Speaker 3: you can you can sleep here, Like we will take

2852
02:24:34,160 --> 02:24:37,320
Speaker 3: care of you. We will like we will feed you,

2853
02:24:37,640 --> 02:24:40,840
Speaker 3: we will take care of you emotionally. And yeah, you know,

2854
02:24:41,640 --> 02:24:44,560
Speaker 3: as as bad as that shit was, they were, you know,

2855
02:24:44,840 --> 02:24:48,720
Speaker 3: as many people as we lost, Like, there are so

2856
02:24:49,400 --> 02:24:51,960
Speaker 3: so many people who are you know, like alive and

2857
02:24:52,120 --> 02:24:55,879
Speaker 3: thriving and you know, living authentic with themselves and are

2858
02:24:56,120 --> 02:25:00,160
Speaker 3: you know, like like genuinely like just like having like

2859
02:25:00,280 --> 02:25:04,440
Speaker 3: having a good time because that's because yeah, yeah, yeah.

2860
02:25:04,360 --> 02:25:06,280
Speaker 6: That's my liver reality right now. I have so many

2861
02:25:06,320 --> 02:25:09,720
Speaker 6: friends in the quick community who are housing insecure or

2862
02:25:09,959 --> 02:25:12,520
Speaker 6: you know, who don't have jobs or whatever, and like

2863
02:25:13,040 --> 02:25:16,840
Speaker 6: we have each other. Like I think I got a this.

2864
02:25:17,040 --> 02:25:19,920
Speaker 6: This butcher I've been dating went to an event for

2865
02:25:20,080 --> 02:25:21,879
Speaker 6: like working class butchers the other day. She came back

2866
02:25:21,879 --> 02:25:23,000
Speaker 6: with some pins and she was like, do you want

2867
02:25:23,000 --> 02:25:24,760
Speaker 6: any of these? And I picked up this one that

2868
02:25:24,840 --> 02:25:26,879
Speaker 6: says we are dykes and all we have is each

2869
02:25:26,920 --> 02:25:30,200
Speaker 6: other because like that is like in the like dyke

2870
02:25:30,280 --> 02:25:33,000
Speaker 6: community that I'm in, Like that's so incredibly true, and

2871
02:25:33,080 --> 02:25:36,960
Speaker 6: we have each other's backs. And like, yeah, like it

2872
02:25:37,000 --> 02:25:38,840
Speaker 6: will continue to be true that we're taking care of

2873
02:25:38,879 --> 02:25:45,600
Speaker 6: each other. I guess it's like it's been already for

2874
02:25:45,959 --> 02:25:48,760
Speaker 6: me for years now. The thing to get angry about

2875
02:25:48,840 --> 02:25:50,680
Speaker 6: is how many people we will lose in the meantime,

2876
02:25:51,120 --> 02:25:53,520
Speaker 6: because like if I if you were if you were

2877
02:25:53,560 --> 02:25:57,320
Speaker 6: gay in nineteen seventy nine or whatever, right and you

2878
02:25:57,440 --> 02:26:00,440
Speaker 6: were about to go into the into the AIDS pandemic,

2879
02:26:00,600 --> 02:26:04,800
Speaker 6: like it just you may you may even then have

2880
02:26:04,879 --> 02:26:07,920
Speaker 6: had a sense, like I think a lot of people didn't,

2881
02:26:07,959 --> 02:26:10,720
Speaker 6: but like, you know, we we have hindsight to know

2882
02:26:10,840 --> 02:26:14,600
Speaker 6: that like things turned out quote unquote okay in the end,

2883
02:26:15,200 --> 02:26:17,680
Speaker 6: but like so many people were lost in the meantime.

2884
02:26:17,720 --> 02:26:19,480
Speaker 6: And for me, that's the thing I'm angry about is

2885
02:26:19,600 --> 02:26:24,600
Speaker 6: just like how tedious this liberal bullshit is of enacting

2886
02:26:24,720 --> 02:26:32,160
Speaker 6: this like staged farce of like, uh, scapegoating bigotry in

2887
02:26:32,400 --> 02:26:35,039
Speaker 6: order to like control the population, you know, in order

2888
02:26:35,120 --> 02:26:38,400
Speaker 6: to divide the working class with with this bigotry. And

2889
02:26:38,480 --> 02:26:41,360
Speaker 6: then like at some point we'll we'll will we will

2890
02:26:41,400 --> 02:26:43,680
Speaker 6: move past it and things will be more chill, and

2891
02:26:43,800 --> 02:26:45,360
Speaker 6: like trans people will not be the ones with the

2892
02:26:45,840 --> 02:26:50,080
Speaker 6: with the crosshairs on us either be either because we

2893
02:26:50,160 --> 02:26:52,920
Speaker 6: have abolished and smashed the crosshairs or simply because they've

2894
02:26:52,959 --> 02:26:55,520
Speaker 6: moved on. And I'm I'm just angry about how many

2895
02:26:55,520 --> 02:26:56,720
Speaker 6: people will be lost in the mean time.

2896
02:26:57,080 --> 02:26:59,520
Speaker 3: Yeahs, And I think I Gues said something we should

2897
02:26:59,520 --> 02:27:02,440
Speaker 3: circle back two in terms of sort of the immediate

2898
02:27:02,480 --> 02:27:06,400
Speaker 3: school regulations is like, you know, okay, so the people

2899
02:27:06,440 --> 02:27:12,000
Speaker 3: who are making these laws know this, but like a

2900
02:27:12,160 --> 02:27:14,080
Speaker 3: lot of the trans people who are killed are killed

2901
02:27:14,120 --> 02:27:17,039
Speaker 3: by their parents. That is a that is a very

2902
02:27:17,280 --> 02:27:20,120
Speaker 3: very common way for trans people to die. You come

2903
02:27:20,120 --> 02:27:23,240
Speaker 3: out to your parents and your parents kill you, and

2904
02:27:23,920 --> 02:27:29,000
Speaker 3: that is fucking bleak as ship. And you know, and

2905
02:27:29,160 --> 02:27:31,280
Speaker 3: again like like these these these these people know this,

2906
02:27:31,560 --> 02:27:34,000
Speaker 3: like there's there is a there's recently a recording of

2907
02:27:34,080 --> 02:27:39,600
Speaker 3: Rishi su Nak just like like just you know, okay.

2908
02:27:39,640 --> 02:27:42,800
Speaker 3: So the thing about sort of you know, this has

2909
02:27:42,840 --> 02:27:46,200
Speaker 3: been changing in the US now because we've gotten to

2910
02:27:46,280 --> 02:27:49,680
Speaker 3: a point where like right when people can just like

2911
02:27:50,360 --> 02:27:54,320
Speaker 3: say slurs and it's you know, public publicly acceptable.

2912
02:27:54,360 --> 02:27:56,600
Speaker 6: But for like for like a long time, you like

2913
02:27:56,879 --> 02:27:59,320
Speaker 6: say slaws and Daniel bleeps them. That's fucking crazy to me,

2914
02:27:59,600 --> 02:28:01,640
Speaker 6: you know, I'm look at the censorship I'm dealing with

2915
02:28:01,800 --> 02:28:03,600
Speaker 6: is what I'm saying. You know, I I say Tranny,

2916
02:28:03,640 --> 02:28:05,640
Speaker 6: I say Fagot, I say Dike, and Daniel's there just

2917
02:28:06,120 --> 02:28:07,240
Speaker 6: ruling with an eye and fist.

2918
02:28:07,320 --> 02:28:07,560
Speaker 3: What's that?

2919
02:28:07,600 --> 02:28:08,160
Speaker 6: What's up with that?

2920
02:28:11,080 --> 02:28:12,720
Speaker 3: It would be very funny if it just none, if

2921
02:28:12,760 --> 02:28:17,680
Speaker 3: this was censored at all, just like no. Yeah, but

2922
02:28:17,800 --> 02:28:19,720
Speaker 3: like like you know, there there there's a recording of

2923
02:28:20,760 --> 02:28:25,400
Speaker 3: like just like actually saying the ship like like I

2924
02:28:25,760 --> 02:28:28,960
Speaker 3: like actually just saying like the really sort of overt

2925
02:28:28,959 --> 02:28:35,840
Speaker 3: anti transship that he believes in private. Yeah, and like yeah,

2926
02:28:35,920 --> 02:28:38,680
Speaker 3: like that that that's like these people like want to

2927
02:28:38,840 --> 02:28:42,400
Speaker 3: hurt us? Like that is that is that there's something

2928
02:28:42,440 --> 02:28:45,120
Speaker 3: that's incredibly clear based on both their sort of what

2929
02:28:45,240 --> 02:28:48,560
Speaker 3: they say in private and what they do in public. Yeah,

2930
02:28:49,480 --> 02:28:55,240
Speaker 3: and you know, fuck them. Yeah, Barry Hunk in the submarine, Uh,

2931
02:28:56,120 --> 02:28:58,080
Speaker 3: get it, get it, get in the fucking contraption.

2932
02:29:00,600 --> 02:29:03,720
Speaker 6: God's be its number submarine and and critical support to

2933
02:29:03,760 --> 02:29:07,800
Speaker 6: Comrade Occa. We will we will deal with with sinec.

2934
02:29:10,360 --> 02:29:16,000
Speaker 6: I'm speaking on behalf of the ocean. Yeah, I don't know,

2935
02:29:16,040 --> 02:29:17,800
Speaker 6: I don't I I don't know what to say about it,

2936
02:29:18,160 --> 02:29:20,840
Speaker 6: because again, like I was not out as trans as

2937
02:29:20,879 --> 02:29:24,760
Speaker 6: a kid. I don't want to give like empty assurances

2938
02:29:25,200 --> 02:29:26,840
Speaker 6: to people who are going through something that I did

2939
02:29:26,920 --> 02:29:29,080
Speaker 6: not go through, that we didn't did not go through.

2940
02:29:29,400 --> 02:29:32,840
Speaker 6: But I do want to say that like as for

2941
02:29:33,200 --> 02:29:37,680
Speaker 6: and it gets better, like we care for each other,

2942
02:29:37,800 --> 02:29:39,960
Speaker 6: and we like we we will continue to have each

2943
02:29:40,000 --> 02:29:43,120
Speaker 6: other's backs. I've been reading a lot of I've been

2944
02:29:43,160 --> 02:29:45,440
Speaker 6: reading Homo Sakea by Georgio Aganmbin for a little while

2945
02:29:45,520 --> 02:29:49,960
Speaker 6: now about the like the class of people like whichever

2946
02:29:50,160 --> 02:29:52,520
Speaker 6: in whatever society you're talking about, like class of people

2947
02:29:52,600 --> 02:29:55,440
Speaker 6: who are treated as the exception from the model of

2948
02:29:55,480 --> 02:29:58,960
Speaker 6: the state, like the people who know who are treated

2949
02:29:59,080 --> 02:30:01,920
Speaker 6: like it wouldn't matter if someone killed them. And you know,

2950
02:30:01,959 --> 02:30:04,520
Speaker 6: it's it's obviously hitting close to home, because that's that's

2951
02:30:04,560 --> 02:30:08,240
Speaker 6: the point of the book, right And I don't know,

2952
02:30:08,320 --> 02:30:09,880
Speaker 6: it's it's given me a lot of a lot of

2953
02:30:10,120 --> 02:30:11,800
Speaker 6: pause for thought over this kind of stuff.

2954
02:30:11,560 --> 02:30:12,240
Speaker 5: That like we have.

2955
02:30:13,879 --> 02:30:14,560
Speaker 3: We have each other.

2956
02:30:14,879 --> 02:30:17,760
Speaker 6: It does it does immediately give you a perspective that

2957
02:30:17,879 --> 02:30:21,400
Speaker 6: invalidates all of the all of the apparatus of the state,

2958
02:30:21,440 --> 02:30:23,560
Speaker 6: because it's all like, wow, that's the nice world you

2959
02:30:23,640 --> 02:30:26,840
Speaker 6: got over there. I'm just not part of it. I'm

2960
02:30:26,879 --> 02:30:30,680
Speaker 6: just not welcome in it. But it's a but the

2961
02:30:30,920 --> 02:30:32,280
Speaker 6: bit where I can say it's okay is we have

2962
02:30:32,360 --> 02:30:33,160
Speaker 6: our own world.

2963
02:30:34,440 --> 02:30:36,920
Speaker 3: And like, and it fucking rips by the way it does.

2964
02:30:37,080 --> 02:30:44,119
Speaker 6: It whips incredibly fucking hard. It might be like irresponsible

2965
02:30:44,160 --> 02:30:46,320
Speaker 6: to discuss in too much detail, but it does work. Actually,

2966
02:30:50,160 --> 02:30:54,040
Speaker 6: but like, yeah, like as much as like kind of

2967
02:30:54,240 --> 02:30:58,520
Speaker 6: explicitly intentionally like separatist arguments are frowned upon, and I

2968
02:30:58,920 --> 02:31:03,000
Speaker 6: think for good reason, like having each other's backs when

2969
02:31:03,200 --> 02:31:06,480
Speaker 6: when the rest of society doesn't, is is necessary and

2970
02:31:06,600 --> 02:31:08,600
Speaker 6: it is what we because it's necessary. It is what

2971
02:31:08,640 --> 02:31:08,959
Speaker 6: we're doing.

2972
02:31:09,800 --> 02:31:10,000
Speaker 4: Yeah.

2973
02:31:10,080 --> 02:31:12,960
Speaker 3: Well, and I will say too, like, you know, as

2974
02:31:13,080 --> 02:31:14,440
Speaker 3: as as much as there are a lot of SIS

2975
02:31:14,520 --> 02:31:16,160
Speaker 3: people who suck, there are a lot of SIS people

2976
02:31:16,320 --> 02:31:18,800
Speaker 3: who will have your back and who will fight for you.

2977
02:31:19,080 --> 02:31:21,760
Speaker 3: And yep, yeah and like and that and that, and

2978
02:31:21,920 --> 02:31:25,640
Speaker 3: I think I think part of like, I think I

2979
02:31:25,720 --> 02:31:29,600
Speaker 3: think part of the what what this stuff is about

2980
02:31:29,760 --> 02:31:34,640
Speaker 3: to write like is like part part part of the

2981
02:31:34,720 --> 02:31:37,280
Speaker 3: culture of fear and the culture of terror that all

2982
02:31:37,320 --> 02:31:41,160
Speaker 3: of this stuff is supposed to like is supposed to

2983
02:31:41,200 --> 02:31:43,600
Speaker 3: sort of bring it to being, is to make it

2984
02:31:43,879 --> 02:31:47,360
Speaker 3: harder for you know of like like there's a sort

2985
02:31:47,400 --> 02:31:48,920
Speaker 3: of obvious one of like, Okay, you want to you

2986
02:31:48,959 --> 02:31:51,320
Speaker 3: want to force trans people like back into the closet,

2987
02:31:51,320 --> 02:31:53,400
Speaker 3: you want to wipe away with the existence. But simultaneously,

2988
02:31:53,480 --> 02:31:55,879
Speaker 3: like it is also trying to isolate trans people from

2989
02:31:56,000 --> 02:31:59,520
Speaker 3: CIS people who will support them. Sure, and it's effective

2990
02:31:59,560 --> 02:32:04,240
Speaker 3: at that, right, but simultaneously like actually working together, we

2991
02:32:04,360 --> 02:32:06,720
Speaker 3: are unstoppable. And that's the reason they're doing all of

2992
02:32:06,760 --> 02:32:09,800
Speaker 3: this shit. Yes, yes, they have because they have to

2993
02:32:09,840 --> 02:32:10,880
Speaker 3: make sure it doesn't happen.

2994
02:32:11,400 --> 02:32:13,400
Speaker 6: Yeah, and I think as well, like it might be

2995
02:32:14,520 --> 02:32:17,040
Speaker 6: this is on one side of it might feel like

2996
02:32:17,959 --> 02:32:21,200
Speaker 6: the uniquely queer side of the divide and conquer experience,

2997
02:32:21,280 --> 02:32:24,000
Speaker 6: because like when we say there are so many more

2998
02:32:24,040 --> 02:32:25,880
Speaker 6: of us than there are of them, we're talking about

2999
02:32:25,879 --> 02:32:29,160
Speaker 6: the working class, or we're talking about human beings around

3000
02:32:29,200 --> 02:32:31,280
Speaker 6: the planet as opposed to the ruling class, or we're

3001
02:32:31,320 --> 02:32:34,080
Speaker 6: talking about like people of color as opposed to white

3002
02:32:34,120 --> 02:32:36,960
Speaker 6: people or whatever. But like the but for queer people,

3003
02:32:37,040 --> 02:32:40,600
Speaker 6: it's like we're very conscious that we're actually, yeah, factually

3004
02:32:40,640 --> 02:32:44,200
Speaker 6: a minority of the population. But like but yeah, me

3005
02:32:44,400 --> 02:32:46,320
Speaker 6: is right, Like there are there are sis people who care.

3006
02:32:46,400 --> 02:32:49,160
Speaker 6: There there are says people who authentically care and authentically

3007
02:32:49,520 --> 02:32:52,720
Speaker 6: like the very least want to offer support. And one

3008
02:32:52,760 --> 02:32:55,200
Speaker 6: thing that I'd say we're working on is like showing

3009
02:32:55,360 --> 02:32:59,520
Speaker 6: SIS people the avenues because the channels of support that

3010
02:32:59,560 --> 02:33:04,160
Speaker 6: they can go through because when yeah, because like yeah

3011
02:33:04,320 --> 02:33:06,080
Speaker 6: that that is the thing about the CIS ally is

3012
02:33:06,120 --> 02:33:08,200
Speaker 6: they they may they may, they may care with their

3013
02:33:08,360 --> 02:33:11,360
Speaker 6: entire bleeding heart, but they they they're not gonna come

3014
02:33:11,440 --> 02:33:13,440
Speaker 6: up with They're usually not going to come up with

3015
02:33:13,600 --> 02:33:15,800
Speaker 6: the way to help themselves. And they so they often

3016
02:33:15,879 --> 02:33:18,760
Speaker 6: need to be pointed like big neon flashing sign, here's

3017
02:33:18,840 --> 02:33:21,040
Speaker 6: how you help, Here's how you go to that.

3018
02:33:21,400 --> 02:33:23,120
Speaker 3: You got to you have to guide them, You have

3019
02:33:23,200 --> 02:33:26,920
Speaker 3: to guide the missile of the book proletariat interaction.

3020
02:33:27,520 --> 02:33:30,760
Speaker 6: Yeah yeah, yeah, to that effect in lieu of just

3021
02:33:30,840 --> 02:33:35,240
Speaker 6: telling your audience to uh, you know, form bonds of

3022
02:33:35,280 --> 02:33:37,480
Speaker 6: solidarity and mutual able with the quicker community in the UK,

3023
02:33:37,560 --> 02:33:42,200
Speaker 6: which like, guys, please you can check out the Good

3024
02:33:42,280 --> 02:33:44,080
Speaker 6: Law Project in the UK. They do a lot of

3025
02:33:44,120 --> 02:33:47,080
Speaker 6: really important legal work, have already been doing a lot

3026
02:33:47,120 --> 02:33:49,959
Speaker 6: of important like legal battles to try to turn back

3027
02:33:50,040 --> 02:33:53,240
Speaker 6: this tired of anti trans legislation and court rulings and

3028
02:33:53,280 --> 02:33:57,480
Speaker 6: so on, and they they accept donations to to like

3029
02:33:57,560 --> 02:34:00,840
Speaker 6: specifically to their fund that relates to trans cases. So

3030
02:34:01,040 --> 02:34:03,640
Speaker 6: like you can, if you're a SIS ally and listening

3031
02:34:03,640 --> 02:34:05,520
Speaker 6: to this and you have some spare cash, you can

3032
02:34:05,640 --> 02:34:08,160
Speaker 6: go look up the Good Law Project and donate to

3033
02:34:08,959 --> 02:34:11,600
Speaker 6: help the legal fight at least, because again, like this

3034
02:34:11,879 --> 02:34:15,080
Speaker 6: guidance is actually against the law as it stands. So

3035
02:34:15,920 --> 02:34:18,279
Speaker 6: I don't know that the Good Law Project has announced

3036
02:34:18,320 --> 02:34:22,680
Speaker 6: a fight to stop it yet, but I imagine that

3037
02:34:22,720 --> 02:34:27,080
Speaker 6: they will do something of some kind sometime soon. And yeah,

3038
02:34:27,280 --> 02:34:29,600
Speaker 6: I mean more support to them will only help.

3039
02:34:30,360 --> 02:34:34,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, And speaking of more support, where can people find you?

3040
02:34:35,600 --> 02:34:39,280
Speaker 6: Well, I'm Sophie from OZ. I have a video essay

3041
02:34:39,360 --> 02:34:42,760
Speaker 6: channel on YouTube. That's my main gig. I have just

3042
02:34:42,959 --> 02:34:46,000
Speaker 6: now nearly finished my project The World is Not Ending,

3043
02:34:46,120 --> 02:34:49,840
Speaker 6: which is about go figure the climate collapse and what

3044
02:34:50,080 --> 02:34:52,240
Speaker 6: is going to happen to us over the next hundred

3045
02:34:52,320 --> 02:34:59,000
Speaker 6: years as a planet surprise, not just total extinction, spoiler warning,

3046
02:35:00,200 --> 02:35:05,840
Speaker 6: working class revolt. And so it's a oh thanks bit.

3047
02:35:06,520 --> 02:35:08,360
Speaker 6: So it's a great time to join my Patreon because

3048
02:35:08,400 --> 02:35:10,840
Speaker 6: this project I've been working on for such a such

3049
02:35:10,920 --> 02:35:14,480
Speaker 6: a long time is nearly done. I also stream on

3050
02:35:14,560 --> 02:35:17,920
Speaker 6: Twitch at Sophie Underscore, FRM Underscore Mars. But speaking of Twitch,

3051
02:35:17,959 --> 02:35:19,720
Speaker 6: I think the thing that appeals to your audience the

3052
02:35:19,760 --> 02:35:23,480
Speaker 6: most besides that project will be my show Red Planet,

3053
02:35:23,520 --> 02:35:25,920
Speaker 6: which I do every Sunday a pm two eleven pm

3054
02:35:26,080 --> 02:35:28,680
Speaker 6: UK time on twitch dot tv slash Red Planet Live.

3055
02:35:29,040 --> 02:35:31,880
Speaker 6: It's a commy round table where we have four very

3056
02:35:31,920 --> 02:35:35,480
Speaker 6: based hosts, usually but not always, talking to some based

3057
02:35:35,520 --> 02:35:39,080
Speaker 6: guests who are organizers and activists doing cool stuff to

3058
02:35:39,160 --> 02:35:42,160
Speaker 6: make the world a better place. For example, this week

3059
02:35:42,240 --> 02:35:44,040
Speaker 6: and so I don't know when this episode's coming out,

3060
02:35:44,080 --> 02:35:47,600
Speaker 6: but this week, as we're recording it, we're going to

3061
02:35:47,640 --> 02:35:51,520
Speaker 6: have Michael laufer On who helps teaches people how to

3062
02:35:51,560 --> 02:35:53,920
Speaker 6: make myth of pristone and miss Aprostel, the at home

3063
02:35:53,959 --> 02:35:57,000
Speaker 6: abortion medications for people in places where it's illegal. So

3064
02:35:57,600 --> 02:35:59,320
Speaker 6: that's the kind of stuff you can expect on Red Planet.

3065
02:35:59,400 --> 02:36:01,080
Speaker 6: Check out Red Plant. It's it's cool.

3066
02:36:02,560 --> 02:36:07,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think this will be out next like Wednesday

3067
02:36:07,840 --> 02:36:09,280
Speaker 3: or something cool.

3068
02:36:09,480 --> 02:36:12,560
Speaker 6: But then yeah, then that episode will be up on

3069
02:36:12,800 --> 02:36:16,039
Speaker 6: Spotify and yeah youtubel, I've yeah.

3070
02:36:16,520 --> 02:36:18,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, this has been it can happen here. You can

3071
02:36:18,200 --> 02:36:20,560
Speaker 3: find us on Twitter and Instagram at happen here pod.

3072
02:36:21,120 --> 02:36:23,080
Speaker 3: I guess you can find me on Twitter while I'm

3073
02:36:23,320 --> 02:36:27,360
Speaker 3: still around at HR three, or just find the Ice

3074
02:36:27,440 --> 02:36:33,280
Speaker 3: Must be Destroyed person. Uh yeah, good, go go go go,

3075
02:36:33,480 --> 02:36:36,840
Speaker 3: go into the world and make life hell for transferbes

3076
02:36:36,920 --> 02:36:38,839
Speaker 3: and the British and American governments.

3077
02:36:39,040 --> 02:36:42,800
Speaker 6: Just support support working class, engage in mutual I blah, pipeline.

3078
02:36:42,840 --> 02:37:02,240
Speaker 3: Don't like it. There's the door could happen here. It's

3079
02:37:02,280 --> 02:37:07,440
Speaker 3: the show where we hate McDonald's. I'm your host, be

3080
02:37:07,520 --> 02:37:11,440
Speaker 3: a long professional McDonald's hater, and with me to talk

3081
02:37:11,520 --> 02:37:15,560
Speaker 3: about hating McDonald's is Mira, who's a freelance journalist, and

3082
02:37:15,560 --> 02:37:17,959
Speaker 3: you need an organizer. Mira, Welcome to the show.

3083
02:37:18,800 --> 02:37:20,440
Speaker 5: It's great to be here. Thank you for having me.

3084
02:37:21,440 --> 02:37:24,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, so okay, So specifically, there are lots of the

3085
02:37:25,000 --> 02:37:29,039
Speaker 3: hating McDonald's is like an ancient anarchist tradition. I think

3086
02:37:29,200 --> 02:37:31,119
Speaker 3: I'm actually not sure how well it is known today,

3087
02:37:31,120 --> 02:37:34,520
Speaker 3: but I'm about eighty percent sure that the tradition of

3088
02:37:34,560 --> 02:37:38,320
Speaker 3: breaking Starbucks windows was actually originally like a it was

3089
02:37:38,360 --> 02:37:41,879
Speaker 3: actually originally a thing about breaking like it came from

3090
02:37:42,040 --> 02:37:44,640
Speaker 3: like a bunch of campaigns I think it definitely in France.

3091
02:37:44,640 --> 02:37:47,840
Speaker 3: I think also in Mexico that like anytime a Starbucks, Starbucks,

3092
02:37:47,920 --> 02:37:50,600
Speaker 3: Jesus Christ, anytiving McDonald's would open up, everyone would immediately

3093
02:37:50,600 --> 02:37:51,600
Speaker 3: start breaking the windows.

3094
02:37:52,840 --> 02:37:55,240
Speaker 5: That's the only proper way to handle on McDonald's.

3095
02:37:55,520 --> 02:38:02,320
Speaker 3: And yeah, professional, but the reason we're talking about McDonald's

3096
02:38:02,440 --> 02:38:04,840
Speaker 3: is that, Yeah, you tried to organize in McDonald's union,

3097
02:38:04,879 --> 02:38:06,160
Speaker 3: which is I guess the other thing you could do

3098
02:38:06,200 --> 02:38:08,959
Speaker 3: with the McDonald's other than lighting it on fire, which

3099
02:38:09,120 --> 02:38:14,440
Speaker 3: is maybe you could, Oh, I guess, I guess there

3100
02:38:14,440 --> 02:38:16,160
Speaker 3: are those people in France who took it over and

3101
02:38:16,240 --> 02:38:18,200
Speaker 3: turned it into like a food co op or something.

3102
02:38:18,640 --> 02:38:21,720
Speaker 3: But a third thing you can do with it, discovered

3103
02:38:21,840 --> 02:38:24,000
Speaker 3: a third A third thing to do with the McDonald's.

3104
02:38:24,040 --> 02:38:28,720
Speaker 3: Let's hit the towers. Yeah, but yeah, I wanted to

3105
02:38:28,800 --> 02:38:33,800
Speaker 3: talk about I guess what you know, Okay, I wanted

3106
02:38:33,800 --> 02:38:36,760
Speaker 3: to use Yeah, so you've written a very good piece

3107
02:38:36,800 --> 02:38:41,280
Speaker 3: about this in Strange Matters called by mcunion that is

3108
02:38:41,360 --> 02:38:43,280
Speaker 3: really good, and I wanted to talk about sort of

3109
02:38:43,760 --> 02:38:46,680
Speaker 3: the piece, the sort of nitty gritty aspect of like

3110
02:38:46,800 --> 02:38:49,720
Speaker 3: what it's like to organize a union, and also just

3111
02:38:49,800 --> 02:38:53,320
Speaker 3: about McDonald's because Jesus Christ, good.

3112
02:38:53,200 --> 02:38:57,560
Speaker 5: Lord, No, I have so much to talk about, so

3113
02:38:57,800 --> 02:38:58,680
Speaker 5: more than happy too.

3114
02:38:59,640 --> 02:39:01,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, so I guess, okay, I think I think we

3115
02:39:01,879 --> 02:39:04,800
Speaker 3: should start with just the sort of McDonald's miss of

3116
02:39:04,920 --> 02:39:08,640
Speaker 3: it all. I wanted to start with just talking a

3117
02:39:08,720 --> 02:39:11,240
Speaker 3: bit about what it's actually like to work on a

3118
02:39:11,320 --> 02:39:16,039
Speaker 3: McDonald's because I, well, okay, a, I feel like it's

3119
02:39:16,040 --> 02:39:18,480
Speaker 3: not actually universal experience anymore, for like people who have

3120
02:39:18,600 --> 02:39:21,760
Speaker 3: worked at a fast food restaurant, and b I think

3121
02:39:23,000 --> 02:39:25,760
Speaker 3: people who it's it's the thing you blought out of

3122
02:39:25,800 --> 02:39:31,119
Speaker 3: your collective memory very quickly because it sucked. But yeah, yeah,

3123
02:39:31,200 --> 02:39:33,520
Speaker 3: so like, okay, so what what is it actually like

3124
02:39:33,680 --> 02:39:37,680
Speaker 3: when you you show up to your shift? So McDonald's

3125
02:39:37,760 --> 02:39:40,320
Speaker 3: was my first job, and it was a hell of

3126
02:39:40,360 --> 02:39:44,000
Speaker 3: an introduction. Yes, the moment you would come in, you

3127
02:39:44,040 --> 02:39:48,920
Speaker 3: would be most days bombarded with constant orders on the

3128
02:39:49,000 --> 02:39:51,800
Speaker 3: screen because they had these little screens both in the

3129
02:39:52,200 --> 02:39:55,600
Speaker 3: front and back drill areas that like showed all the

3130
02:39:55,760 --> 02:39:59,959
Speaker 3: orders they had, and like a good sixty seventy percent

3131
02:40:00,120 --> 02:40:02,520
Speaker 3: at the time I came in, people would just be

3132
02:40:02,720 --> 02:40:05,680
Speaker 3: swamped with orders. They'd be running around being like, oh,

3133
02:40:06,080 --> 02:40:07,880
Speaker 3: thank god, you hear we need someone to get on

3134
02:40:08,040 --> 02:40:09,800
Speaker 3: right now, and it's like you don't even get a

3135
02:40:09,840 --> 02:40:12,800
Speaker 3: moment to breathe. Like, as you're standing there waiting to

3136
02:40:12,879 --> 02:40:15,560
Speaker 3: clock in on their punching machine, you're just like, oh,

3137
02:40:15,640 --> 02:40:19,720
Speaker 3: dear God, I'm gonna have a fucking terrible time. And

3138
02:40:20,040 --> 02:40:22,760
Speaker 3: as you're running around, you know, cooking everything after you

3139
02:40:22,879 --> 02:40:26,440
Speaker 3: clock in, you're getting streamed at by your bosses right

3140
02:40:26,480 --> 02:40:29,320
Speaker 3: by you because they're like, oh, no, customer complained because

3141
02:40:29,360 --> 02:40:32,359
Speaker 3: there was too many pickles on their sandwich.

3142
02:40:33,800 --> 02:40:36,560
Speaker 5: And then you'll hear someone yelling from the drive through

3143
02:40:36,600 --> 02:40:39,160
Speaker 5: window on top of that, and then you might have

3144
02:40:39,360 --> 02:40:41,880
Speaker 5: people at the front counter. This is before proven, so

3145
02:40:42,680 --> 02:40:45,440
Speaker 5: McDonald's still had front counters when people would come in.

3146
02:40:46,400 --> 02:40:49,039
Speaker 5: I don't know if every McDonald's does, but everyone i've

3147
02:40:49,080 --> 02:40:52,600
Speaker 5: been too since has just closed down internally, and I

3148
02:40:52,879 --> 02:40:57,520
Speaker 5: envied that. But you would have people yelling from there,

3149
02:40:57,879 --> 02:41:00,520
Speaker 5: and if you were one of the unfortunate that souls

3150
02:41:00,560 --> 02:41:03,440
Speaker 5: who ended up working directly facing the customers and not

3151
02:41:03,720 --> 02:41:06,480
Speaker 5: just cooking, you would be the one getting screamed at

3152
02:41:06,680 --> 02:41:10,600
Speaker 5: by all parties involved. I later worked at a Windy's

3153
02:41:10,879 --> 02:41:14,520
Speaker 5: where I got a taste of that and I walked

3154
02:41:14,560 --> 02:41:15,800
Speaker 5: out three days into March.

3155
02:41:17,800 --> 02:41:24,040
Speaker 3: Yeah. Stuff sucks. Yeah, And I think that, you know,

3156
02:41:24,200 --> 02:41:26,800
Speaker 3: I think like one of the things I think like

3157
02:41:26,879 --> 02:41:30,640
Speaker 3: compounds this is, you know, okay, I will I will,

3158
02:41:30,720 --> 02:41:32,640
Speaker 3: I will, I will do a theory which is that

3159
02:41:32,760 --> 02:41:39,760
Speaker 3: I think people have a really weird understanding of what

3160
02:41:39,959 --> 02:41:42,800
Speaker 3: it means to have a job on a sort of

3161
02:41:42,840 --> 02:41:46,520
Speaker 3: theoretical level that dates back to a genuinely, very weird

3162
02:41:46,640 --> 02:41:49,480
Speaker 3: period in the twentieth century where people actually had like

3163
02:41:49,760 --> 02:41:53,200
Speaker 3: stable hours. Yeah, and that's just not how any of

3164
02:41:53,280 --> 02:41:56,800
Speaker 3: this works, right, Like you you know, you like, there

3165
02:41:57,040 --> 02:41:59,120
Speaker 3: is no actual stable amount of hours. You just get

3166
02:41:59,280 --> 02:42:02,920
Speaker 3: you get some number of hours like a week that

3167
02:42:02,959 --> 02:42:04,480
Speaker 3: you're assigned to. But then you know, but this the

3168
02:42:04,680 --> 02:42:07,120
Speaker 3: least to do a thing that we've oh god like,

3169
02:42:07,200 --> 02:42:09,879
Speaker 3: like literally every single field we've talked about unidizing has

3170
02:42:09,920 --> 02:42:13,400
Speaker 3: this problem, which is just understaffing, because why the fuck

3171
02:42:13,440 --> 02:42:15,440
Speaker 3: would you have enough people to do a job. Would

3172
02:42:15,440 --> 02:42:16,840
Speaker 3: you could have less than enough people to do a

3173
02:42:16,959 --> 02:42:18,320
Speaker 3: job and pave them less.

3174
02:42:20,640 --> 02:42:24,199
Speaker 5: That That was my experience a McDonald and fast food

3175
02:42:24,240 --> 02:42:28,080
Speaker 5: in general. You would get such inconsistent numbers of hours

3176
02:42:28,160 --> 02:42:30,320
Speaker 5: that you wouldn't know how much money you'd be making

3177
02:42:30,720 --> 02:42:33,200
Speaker 5: in the month, because for all you know, this month,

3178
02:42:33,280 --> 02:42:36,560
Speaker 5: you could be working you know, every regular day, every

3179
02:42:36,600 --> 02:42:39,920
Speaker 5: business day of the week. You could be working only weekends,

3180
02:42:40,879 --> 02:42:44,240
Speaker 5: or you could be like I was after the union

3181
02:42:44,320 --> 02:42:50,560
Speaker 5: got busted spoiler alert, uh, working three hours on Sundays

3182
02:42:50,640 --> 02:42:53,840
Speaker 5: in the mornings. And that's it if they really wanted to.

3183
02:42:54,120 --> 02:42:58,640
Speaker 5: And there's nothing that outside of a union you can

3184
02:42:58,720 --> 02:43:02,080
Speaker 5: do to prevent them from and outside of you know,

3185
02:43:02,240 --> 02:43:05,720
Speaker 5: niche legal areas where you can maybe push back, you

3186
02:43:05,800 --> 02:43:07,720
Speaker 5: can't really do much if they decide just not to

3187
02:43:07,800 --> 02:43:13,400
Speaker 5: staff you. And there is people working there who they

3188
02:43:13,440 --> 02:43:17,600
Speaker 5: had like full blown kids, families relying on them in

3189
02:43:17,720 --> 02:43:20,720
Speaker 5: that job. They weren't making much. Pennsylvania minimum wage was

3190
02:43:20,760 --> 02:43:23,400
Speaker 5: seven twenty five and you know they were paying us that, Yeah,

3191
02:43:24,320 --> 02:43:26,520
Speaker 5: and so from what little they could get, they would

3192
02:43:26,520 --> 02:43:28,880
Speaker 5: maybe get like at best a one hundred bucks a

3193
02:43:28,959 --> 02:43:32,640
Speaker 5: week with their hours, unless they were able to get

3194
02:43:32,680 --> 02:43:35,760
Speaker 5: into like a managerial position where it's the only one

3195
02:43:35,760 --> 02:43:39,200
Speaker 5: where you'd be kind of guaranteed ours in the sense

3196
02:43:39,280 --> 02:43:42,000
Speaker 5: that they desperately need you, so they throwing you on whatever.

3197
02:43:43,920 --> 02:43:47,400
Speaker 5: Beyond that, it's you also don't know the days you're

3198
02:43:47,400 --> 02:43:48,360
Speaker 5: going to work too.

3199
02:43:48,600 --> 02:43:48,800
Speaker 3: Yeah.

3200
02:43:48,840 --> 02:43:49,040
Speaker 6: Yeah.

3201
02:43:49,080 --> 02:43:50,920
Speaker 3: This thing I was gonna ask is like, what, like

3202
02:43:51,280 --> 02:43:55,200
Speaker 3: how how much time do you have between finding out

3203
02:43:55,240 --> 02:43:57,000
Speaker 3: you're going to be on a shift and then like

3204
02:43:57,200 --> 02:43:58,000
Speaker 3: being on the shift.

3205
02:43:59,560 --> 02:44:05,320
Speaker 5: You can have anywhere from several days notice to under

3206
02:44:05,400 --> 02:44:10,039
Speaker 5: twelve hours notice, and there is no way to predict

3207
02:44:10,080 --> 02:44:11,680
Speaker 5: what's going to happen the next week. Is it all

3208
02:44:11,680 --> 02:44:13,960
Speaker 5: depends on when you're going to get staffed. There were

3209
02:44:14,080 --> 02:44:20,000
Speaker 5: points I found out day out when I was going

3210
02:44:20,080 --> 02:44:20,920
Speaker 5: to be working.

3211
02:44:22,640 --> 02:44:26,560
Speaker 3: Jesus Christ. Yeah yeah, and like this, I mean, this

3212
02:44:26,640 --> 02:44:29,320
Speaker 3: is the thing that like is becoming. This is the

3213
02:44:29,400 --> 02:44:33,560
Speaker 3: way that labor used to work in like the eighteen hundreds,

3214
02:44:34,680 --> 02:44:36,200
Speaker 3: and then you know, it was just sort of like

3215
02:44:36,280 --> 02:44:38,960
Speaker 3: phased out because it turns out this is actually a

3216
02:44:39,040 --> 02:44:44,240
Speaker 3: stunningly inefficient way to actually like like run a business.

3217
02:44:44,800 --> 02:44:48,959
Speaker 3: But you know, we've reached the thing that happened at

3218
02:44:49,000 --> 02:44:51,080
Speaker 3: the end of history. Is it's not the history ended.

3219
02:44:51,080 --> 02:44:55,360
Speaker 3: It's that like capital needing to be efficient ended, and

3220
02:44:55,400 --> 02:44:57,720
Speaker 3: now they just like do this shit. And it's like, well, okay,

3221
02:44:57,879 --> 02:44:59,720
Speaker 3: so it doesn't matter if this is like a terribly

3222
02:44:59,720 --> 02:45:03,400
Speaker 3: a dificient way to run things. It's you just like

3223
02:45:03,680 --> 02:45:05,840
Speaker 3: it's it's it's it's a mechanism designed to just like

3224
02:45:05,959 --> 02:45:11,040
Speaker 3: absolutely destroyed like the sort of psyches and lives of

3225
02:45:11,080 --> 02:45:13,000
Speaker 3: the people who are doing the thing.

3226
02:45:13,800 --> 02:45:19,000
Speaker 5: Yeah, that is completely accurate. They do not give a

3227
02:45:19,160 --> 02:45:22,880
Speaker 5: rat's ass about anyone working there. For a second, Everyone

3228
02:45:23,000 --> 02:45:27,840
Speaker 5: working there is completely expendable, even if they're a manager.

3229
02:45:29,520 --> 02:45:32,000
Speaker 5: There's been points people have worked there for like three

3230
02:45:32,080 --> 02:45:35,240
Speaker 5: four months and got promoted to a manager. There's everyone

3231
02:45:35,360 --> 02:45:39,680
Speaker 5: is expendable, and they they make sure you know that too.

3232
02:45:40,160 --> 02:45:44,119
Speaker 5: And how they treat you. You're not treated with any dignity,

3233
02:45:44,200 --> 02:45:49,040
Speaker 5: with any respect. You're just completely thrown around at their

3234
02:45:49,120 --> 02:45:53,240
Speaker 5: whims and the whims of upper management, you know, the

3235
02:45:54,360 --> 02:46:02,920
Speaker 5: regional managers and the like. And it's it's awful because

3236
02:46:03,480 --> 02:46:06,400
Speaker 5: how they get away with that model is they know

3237
02:46:06,520 --> 02:46:09,640
Speaker 5: there's always going to be some people who are desperate

3238
02:46:09,680 --> 02:46:12,920
Speaker 5: to work at McDonald's, either because they're young and need

3239
02:46:13,000 --> 02:46:18,920
Speaker 5: to get a first job, or they're down on their

3240
02:46:19,040 --> 02:46:22,040
Speaker 5: luck and need to get something to pay the bills.

3241
02:46:23,840 --> 02:46:28,880
Speaker 5: I've even hitting hard times trying to reapply at McDonald's

3242
02:46:29,240 --> 02:46:33,440
Speaker 5: since working there because I needed to pay the bill.

3243
02:46:33,560 --> 02:46:39,160
Speaker 5: I was in that exact position again, and fairly recently,

3244
02:46:39,920 --> 02:46:44,360
Speaker 5: and so it's it's not a fun place to be,

3245
02:46:45,000 --> 02:46:48,280
Speaker 5: to put it mildly. Yeah, of course they didn't let

3246
02:46:48,320 --> 02:46:51,800
Speaker 5: me work there again because I believe I'm banned from

3247
02:46:51,840 --> 02:46:53,240
Speaker 5: ever working at a McDonald's again.

3248
02:46:53,720 --> 02:46:57,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's it. That's another thing that I think is

3249
02:46:57,920 --> 02:47:00,680
Speaker 3: not that well understood, like loss of companies have basically

3250
02:47:01,200 --> 02:47:03,680
Speaker 3: not even like there are there are people that I

3251
02:47:03,800 --> 02:47:07,720
Speaker 3: know who are blacklisted, like from ship they did dream Occupy,

3252
02:47:08,800 --> 02:47:12,960
Speaker 3: like people like yeah, like like that there these these things.

3253
02:47:13,520 --> 02:47:16,040
Speaker 3: These things suck and if you like, you know, this

3254
02:47:16,160 --> 02:47:18,840
Speaker 3: is I guess one of the sort of issues of

3255
02:47:18,959 --> 02:47:21,120
Speaker 3: doing any kind of organizing is that like if you lose,

3256
02:47:21,520 --> 02:47:25,520
Speaker 3: like stuff can go like very badly for you, which sucks.

3257
02:47:25,760 --> 02:47:28,360
Speaker 3: But also simultaneously, if you don't organize things we go

3258
02:47:28,520 --> 02:47:31,680
Speaker 3: very badly for you. So it's you know, so it's

3259
02:47:31,720 --> 02:47:35,760
Speaker 3: a double Yeah, yeah, I guess the just one everything

3260
02:47:35,800 --> 02:47:37,440
Speaker 3: I wanted to ask, which I don't know if you

3261
02:47:37,480 --> 02:47:40,200
Speaker 3: know do you do you know if you're if you're uh,

3262
02:47:40,840 --> 02:47:42,720
Speaker 3: if you're McDonald's was a franchise if it was like

3263
02:47:42,840 --> 02:47:44,760
Speaker 3: actually owned by the company.

3264
02:47:45,600 --> 02:47:49,440
Speaker 5: So yes, it was a franchise. It wasn't done by

3265
02:47:49,560 --> 02:47:55,600
Speaker 5: like the official company in any major sense. I actually

3266
02:47:55,920 --> 02:47:58,560
Speaker 5: met the franchise owner during the course of the union,

3267
02:48:00,000 --> 02:48:02,800
Speaker 5: which was a fun time when we were in the

3268
02:48:02,840 --> 02:48:04,119
Speaker 5: process of getting busted.

3269
02:48:04,920 --> 02:48:09,440
Speaker 3: Oh boy, yeah, So do you want to explain what

3270
02:48:09,879 --> 02:48:13,040
Speaker 3: a franchise is? And I guess, like how that sort

3271
02:48:13,080 --> 02:48:13,680
Speaker 3: of model works.

3272
02:48:14,600 --> 02:48:19,959
Speaker 5: Yeah, So most McDonald's out there are franchises, which basically

3273
02:48:20,160 --> 02:48:26,119
Speaker 5: means McDonald's will kind of let independent people buy out

3274
02:48:26,160 --> 02:48:30,039
Speaker 5: their stores and own and manage them in a certain

3275
02:48:30,440 --> 02:48:37,960
Speaker 5: region for a portion of the profits. In the Scranton area,

3276
02:48:38,800 --> 02:48:43,160
Speaker 5: which was where I did the union, they were all

3277
02:48:43,440 --> 02:48:49,480
Speaker 5: owned by one single family who was ultra rich, in

3278
02:48:49,600 --> 02:48:51,720
Speaker 5: part because of the McDonald's and in part because of

3279
02:48:51,800 --> 02:49:02,080
Speaker 5: family inheritances, and these folk they would be the kind

3280
02:49:02,120 --> 02:49:05,720
Speaker 5: of be treated as like the head Honchow's the same

3281
02:49:05,800 --> 02:49:09,120
Speaker 5: way that CEOs get talked about at most companies. They

3282
02:49:09,160 --> 02:49:11,640
Speaker 5: weren't the CEOs, of course, but like as far as

3283
02:49:11,879 --> 02:49:15,200
Speaker 5: in terms of managing great distrant and area McDonald's went,

3284
02:49:15,600 --> 02:49:18,920
Speaker 5: they were the main ones in charge. Of course, McDonald's

3285
02:49:18,959 --> 02:49:23,640
Speaker 5: corporate always had the final say over everything, but they

3286
02:49:23,840 --> 02:49:27,520
Speaker 5: manage tens of thousands of restaurants across the world, so

3287
02:49:27,560 --> 02:49:29,720
Speaker 5: they don't really get involved in any of the nitty gritty,

3288
02:49:29,879 --> 02:49:33,920
Speaker 5: which is why they kind of let people own these franchises.

3289
02:49:34,959 --> 02:49:38,759
Speaker 3: Yeah, which I think is really interesting. It's like they've

3290
02:49:38,840 --> 02:49:41,640
Speaker 3: managed to somehow combine like the worst aspects of working

3291
02:49:41,680 --> 02:49:43,920
Speaker 3: for a major corporation with the worst aspects of working

3292
02:49:43,959 --> 02:49:47,400
Speaker 3: for like a small business tyrant. Which it's interesting to

3293
02:49:47,400 --> 02:49:50,080
Speaker 3: you because it's like, I don't know, because this is

3294
02:49:50,120 --> 02:49:51,720
Speaker 3: like one of the weird things about McDonald because like

3295
02:49:51,760 --> 02:49:55,640
Speaker 3: McDonald's McDonald's corporate doesn't make money from Hamburger's. They're basically

3296
02:49:55,680 --> 02:49:59,080
Speaker 3: a real estate company that like sells franchises to people,

3297
02:50:00,480 --> 02:50:03,640
Speaker 3: but but simultaneous. But that means that like they can

3298
02:50:04,040 --> 02:50:07,080
Speaker 3: do things, like they can force their franchises to do

3299
02:50:07,200 --> 02:50:09,480
Speaker 3: things that are like unprofitable because it doesn't matter to them,

3300
02:50:10,320 --> 02:50:13,520
Speaker 3: Like there's they're still getting paid, Like they're still getting

3301
02:50:13,560 --> 02:50:17,880
Speaker 3: paid their like licensing like franchising fees or whatever, like

3302
02:50:18,040 --> 02:50:21,320
Speaker 3: no matter what sort of like shit is happening there. Yeah,

3303
02:50:21,560 --> 02:50:24,400
Speaker 3: and that's I don't know, it's it strikes me as

3304
02:50:24,440 --> 02:50:26,960
Speaker 3: like a really interesting. It strikes me as like the

3305
02:50:27,040 --> 02:50:29,240
Speaker 3: exact arrangement that's like the most likely to create a

3306
02:50:29,280 --> 02:50:33,200
Speaker 3: fascist just like because like like you know, you have

3307
02:50:33,320 --> 02:50:34,960
Speaker 3: a group of people like and I think I think

3308
02:50:35,000 --> 02:50:36,560
Speaker 3: it's a good agm with this. This is what like

3309
02:50:37,000 --> 02:50:39,840
Speaker 3: quote unquote economic anxiety is. Is you have like a

3310
02:50:40,080 --> 02:50:41,480
Speaker 3: you have like you have a sort of middle level

3311
02:50:42,040 --> 02:50:44,280
Speaker 3: of like this, you know, the middle level of person

3312
02:50:44,320 --> 02:50:46,440
Speaker 3: who is a capitalist but is also getting squeezed from

3313
02:50:46,480 --> 02:50:50,000
Speaker 3: the top down like by a by larger corporations and

3314
02:50:50,040 --> 02:50:52,400
Speaker 3: then also is facing bought about pressure from workers. And

3315
02:50:52,480 --> 02:50:56,200
Speaker 3: so their solution to this is just like ruthlessly, like

3316
02:50:57,320 --> 02:51:00,240
Speaker 3: you know, just just like ruthlessly do a fashion them

3317
02:51:00,280 --> 02:51:03,160
Speaker 3: against like everyone who's working for them.

3318
02:51:04,200 --> 02:51:07,280
Speaker 5: Yeah, you scratch a liberal and the fascist leads. Yeah,

3319
02:51:07,480 --> 02:51:13,440
Speaker 5: it's more true than McDonald's and fast food really than anywhere. Yeah,

3320
02:51:14,600 --> 02:51:16,480
Speaker 5: the mcfascists reign supreme.

3321
02:51:18,280 --> 02:51:24,039
Speaker 3: So speaking of mcfascists, the products and services these are too.

3322
02:51:24,160 --> 02:51:29,440
Speaker 3: These are two distinct sentences. They are not related. FCC please,

3323
02:51:29,920 --> 02:51:33,560
Speaker 3: actually no, fuck you. The SCC doesn't well no, no,

3324
02:51:33,840 --> 02:51:35,840
Speaker 3: the SCC. The SEC does not regulate us. I think

3325
02:51:35,879 --> 02:51:38,959
Speaker 3: we're actually regulated by the FTC. So fuck the SEC.

3326
02:51:39,640 --> 02:51:41,560
Speaker 3: That's why I could swear on this podcast because they

3327
02:51:41,600 --> 02:51:48,000
Speaker 3: don't recomplain us. And we're back Okay. So, having having

3328
02:51:48,080 --> 02:51:50,960
Speaker 3: returned to more mcfascism, Yeah, okay, So I guess we

3329
02:51:51,240 --> 02:51:56,000
Speaker 3: should start talking about how the union organizing started and

3330
02:51:56,879 --> 02:52:02,920
Speaker 3: how I guess the sort of immediate mistake that y'all

3331
02:52:03,040 --> 02:52:06,640
Speaker 3: made attempting to get this, to get this off the ground. Yeah,

3332
02:52:07,480 --> 02:52:08,360
Speaker 3: so it.

3333
02:52:08,480 --> 02:52:11,960
Speaker 5: Started with me. I was the first one there to

3334
02:52:12,040 --> 02:52:16,440
Speaker 5: bring up the concept of reunion because then I was

3335
02:52:16,600 --> 02:52:21,360
Speaker 5: like only seventeen. I was new to anarchism still, and

3336
02:52:21,560 --> 02:52:26,640
Speaker 5: so I was young, green, and eager to get shit done.

3337
02:52:27,680 --> 02:52:29,080
Speaker 5: I still am all the above.

3338
02:52:32,280 --> 02:52:34,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, but.

3339
02:52:37,400 --> 02:52:42,600
Speaker 5: I had a few contacts to local IWW people through

3340
02:52:42,840 --> 02:52:47,640
Speaker 5: just the very very faint activist networks that were up there,

3341
02:52:47,800 --> 02:52:50,120
Speaker 5: and by faint, I mean a total of like five people.

3342
02:52:52,400 --> 02:52:59,480
Speaker 5: So I got cut in contact with the IWW guy.

3343
02:53:01,600 --> 02:53:05,920
Speaker 5: I believe. I used the name Mark. Yes, I used

3344
02:53:05,920 --> 02:53:08,480
Speaker 5: the name Mark in the article to protect his anonymity,

3345
02:53:08,560 --> 02:53:13,640
Speaker 5: so I'll just keep consistency. And Mark was the one

3346
02:53:14,560 --> 02:53:21,960
Speaker 5: who convinced me to take more major steps. He was

3347
02:53:22,040 --> 02:53:24,680
Speaker 5: the one who I talked to and got consultation about it,

3348
02:53:24,800 --> 02:53:26,800
Speaker 5: and he was the one who gave all that initial guidance.

3349
02:53:28,040 --> 02:53:29,920
Speaker 5: And there was a few friends of mine I had

3350
02:53:30,000 --> 02:53:37,480
Speaker 5: there there also not really anarchists. Most of them were

3351
02:53:37,600 --> 02:53:40,840
Speaker 5: just like your soci Dems, but they were They were

3352
02:53:40,920 --> 02:53:44,040
Speaker 5: eager to get something done and help out, so you know,

3353
02:53:44,480 --> 02:53:47,160
Speaker 5: I can't complain there. And it was like a small

3354
02:53:47,240 --> 02:53:49,840
Speaker 5: core group of us who all wanted to get involved

3355
02:53:50,480 --> 02:53:53,800
Speaker 5: and get this album done, and we had never done

3356
02:53:54,000 --> 02:54:00,360
Speaker 5: anything like this before. Northeast Pennsylvania does have a strong

3357
02:54:00,560 --> 02:54:05,480
Speaker 5: history of unions there, but we were not part of

3358
02:54:05,560 --> 02:54:18,279
Speaker 5: that history initially, and so it ended up going south unfortunately.

3359
02:54:19,360 --> 02:54:26,720
Speaker 5: Pretty it went well at first, but I think some

3360
02:54:26,879 --> 02:54:30,800
Speaker 5: of the main issues we had in hindsight doing things,

3361
02:54:33,200 --> 02:54:36,680
Speaker 5: especially now having more experience union organizing under my belt,

3362
02:54:38,920 --> 02:54:44,959
Speaker 5: in hindsight, we rushed things way too much. We were

3363
02:54:46,080 --> 02:54:51,199
Speaker 5: trying to get everyone on board. We didn't do sufficient

3364
02:54:51,280 --> 02:54:55,120
Speaker 5: one on one conversations with people, we didn't do sufficient

3365
02:54:59,360 --> 02:55:03,120
Speaker 5: intel gather, and we didn't we relied too much on

3366
02:55:03,200 --> 02:55:07,240
Speaker 5: our technical tools and left too much incrimitating evidence that

3367
02:55:07,280 --> 02:55:10,760
Speaker 5: we trusted too many people with. We didn't really have

3368
02:55:10,879 --> 02:55:14,080
Speaker 5: a strong way of going about it that would have

3369
02:55:14,240 --> 02:55:16,880
Speaker 5: been better to what we were doing.

3370
02:55:17,680 --> 02:55:19,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I guess this comes to one and I

3371
02:55:19,440 --> 02:55:21,720
Speaker 3: think of the main things that you're talking about here

3372
02:55:21,760 --> 02:55:23,280
Speaker 3: and I think is one of the main things about

3373
02:55:24,560 --> 02:55:26,560
Speaker 3: you know, union organizing that like like pretty much no

3374
02:55:26,680 --> 02:55:33,920
Speaker 3: matter who you talk to wright politically, the the things

3375
02:55:33,959 --> 02:55:36,360
Speaker 3: that are important to get a union to work are

3376
02:55:36,520 --> 02:55:40,800
Speaker 3: kind of similar, which is that, Yeah, like it's usually

3377
02:55:40,840 --> 02:55:43,600
Speaker 3: a very slow process. It's a process of building relationships,

3378
02:55:43,640 --> 02:55:48,240
Speaker 3: and it's a process of figuring out who in your work, well,

3379
02:55:48,280 --> 02:55:50,040
Speaker 3: who in your work pays people sort of trust and

3380
02:55:50,160 --> 02:55:54,600
Speaker 3: respect and like make friends with and figuring out how

3381
02:55:54,800 --> 02:55:56,480
Speaker 3: to sort of how to get them involved in how

3382
02:55:56,560 --> 02:56:01,120
Speaker 3: to get I don't know how how unions are not

3383
02:56:01,200 --> 02:56:03,080
Speaker 3: just sort of like abstract things like they're they're they're

3384
02:56:03,240 --> 02:56:05,840
Speaker 3: they're built of actual like social relationships that you have

3385
02:56:06,000 --> 02:56:09,200
Speaker 3: with another person and another and other gifts and in

3386
02:56:09,200 --> 02:56:11,039
Speaker 3: the relationships that they have with other people, et cetera,

3387
02:56:11,080 --> 02:56:16,800
Speaker 3: et cetera. Yeah, Yeah, I wanted to ask about how, how, okay,

3388
02:56:16,840 --> 02:56:18,920
Speaker 3: when when when you were sort of starting to do

3389
02:56:19,120 --> 02:56:22,720
Speaker 3: this right, how, how were you sort of identifying the

3390
02:56:22,800 --> 02:56:25,760
Speaker 3: people you needed to talk to and what kinds of

3391
02:56:26,120 --> 02:56:28,360
Speaker 3: things were you doing to try to get them involved

3392
02:56:28,400 --> 02:56:31,320
Speaker 3: and try to like map out how the workplace functioned.

3393
02:56:32,400 --> 02:56:36,600
Speaker 5: So the first people identify were people that I thought

3394
02:56:36,879 --> 02:56:39,720
Speaker 5: I could trust, and the core group of people I

3395
02:56:39,840 --> 02:56:42,840
Speaker 5: had were folk that in regards to the union, I

3396
02:56:44,080 --> 02:56:47,040
Speaker 5: in hindsight, was a trust. We all agreed on the

3397
02:56:47,080 --> 02:56:49,080
Speaker 5: same issues, and we all had the kind of similar

3398
02:56:49,200 --> 02:56:52,240
Speaker 5: more gung ho attitude. I think me definitely the most

3399
02:56:52,280 --> 02:56:55,440
Speaker 5: out of everyone. We fell into a pitfall where I

3400
02:56:55,640 --> 02:56:58,840
Speaker 5: was kind of pushing the union by myself for a bit,

3401
02:56:59,440 --> 02:57:04,640
Speaker 5: which is definitely easy to fall into. Yeah, But we

3402
02:57:06,120 --> 02:57:10,080
Speaker 5: in terms of identifying the workplace leaders, the natural leaders

3403
02:57:10,200 --> 02:57:15,640
Speaker 5: found there, we mostly relied on conversations with Mark to

3404
02:57:15,840 --> 02:57:18,000
Speaker 5: do that. We talked with him about who worked there.

3405
02:57:18,240 --> 02:57:21,840
Speaker 5: We gave a brief list of everyone who worked there,

3406
02:57:22,680 --> 02:57:26,039
Speaker 5: and we kind of just pinpointed them the specific people

3407
02:57:26,080 --> 02:57:29,600
Speaker 5: we saw as leaders and left spent that And I mean,

3408
02:57:30,200 --> 02:57:33,800
Speaker 5: as far as basic charting goes, it wasn't terrible, but

3409
02:57:33,959 --> 02:57:36,440
Speaker 5: there is definitely a lot to be desired and it

3410
02:57:36,480 --> 02:57:38,360
Speaker 5: could have been far more fleshed out.

3411
02:57:39,000 --> 02:57:40,760
Speaker 3: What do you think that would have looked like? Or

3412
02:57:40,840 --> 02:57:42,040
Speaker 3: you know, what does that look like? In sort of

3413
02:57:42,160 --> 02:57:44,880
Speaker 3: like other campaigns that you've run that were like the

3414
02:57:44,959 --> 02:57:46,520
Speaker 3: first one you ever tried to do at.

3415
02:57:46,520 --> 02:57:52,080
Speaker 5: Seventeen, so charting as I would do it now It

3416
02:57:52,120 --> 02:57:55,040
Speaker 5: should be done from the start before even approaching the

3417
02:57:55,120 --> 02:58:00,400
Speaker 5: first person unless you extremely trust the person and like

3418
02:58:01,200 --> 02:58:05,080
Speaker 5: you are just bonded for life, you know you can't

3419
02:58:05,120 --> 02:58:08,160
Speaker 5: go without them unless you have like really deep trust

3420
02:58:08,200 --> 02:58:10,760
Speaker 5: with the person. Initially, you shouldn't approach anyone of them

3421
02:58:11,240 --> 02:58:15,640
Speaker 5: going into it. You should start off with if you

3422
02:58:15,760 --> 02:58:18,480
Speaker 5: can reaching out to an IWW REP. But if you

3423
02:58:18,680 --> 02:58:22,480
Speaker 5: can't make a detailed chart of who's in your workplace,

3424
02:58:23,280 --> 02:58:26,760
Speaker 5: what positions they're at, what team they're on, like in

3425
02:58:26,920 --> 02:58:33,360
Speaker 5: terms of if they're on one person's managed area or

3426
02:58:33,440 --> 02:58:39,560
Speaker 5: another person's managed area, you should should figure out who

3427
02:58:39,600 --> 02:58:45,160
Speaker 5: they're close to, who they listen to, relevant demographic information,

3428
02:58:45,320 --> 02:58:49,840
Speaker 5: because you want your unions to be intersectional, and you

3429
02:58:50,080 --> 02:58:53,920
Speaker 5: want to be able to figure out, above all else,

3430
02:58:55,280 --> 02:58:58,920
Speaker 5: whether or not you've had a away from work one

3431
02:58:59,000 --> 02:59:03,280
Speaker 5: on one with them, and whether or not you've had

3432
02:59:04,080 --> 02:59:06,920
Speaker 5: any talks with them prior about unions and where they

3433
02:59:07,000 --> 02:59:09,640
Speaker 5: might stand on unions. Do you want to document all that?

3434
02:59:09,959 --> 02:59:12,480
Speaker 5: And it doesn't have to be the most detail. You

3435
02:59:12,560 --> 02:59:16,360
Speaker 5: can just do a spreadsheet with it, but it can

3436
02:59:16,400 --> 02:59:20,600
Speaker 5: definitely be a lot to document. And it's it's no joke,

3437
02:59:21,080 --> 02:59:23,800
Speaker 5: it's not something that should be rushed. It's not fun.

3438
02:59:24,480 --> 02:59:27,600
Speaker 5: I you know, there's there's nothing really that's a blast

3439
02:59:28,440 --> 02:59:31,800
Speaker 5: about trying to sit there and be like, ah, yes,

3440
02:59:31,920 --> 02:59:35,880
Speaker 5: let me fill out paperwork about my workplace employees. But

3441
02:59:36,840 --> 02:59:40,800
Speaker 5: it will come back and save you so many times

3442
02:59:40,879 --> 02:59:44,000
Speaker 5: and give help you formulate strategies for going forward.

3443
02:59:44,480 --> 02:59:45,360
Speaker 8: And we.

3444
02:59:47,320 --> 02:59:49,880
Speaker 5: Rush things and talk did things like talking to people

3445
02:59:50,360 --> 02:59:52,680
Speaker 5: on the workplace floor and just said, hey, do you

3446
02:59:52,720 --> 02:59:55,120
Speaker 5: want to do a union? Yeah, and call that a

3447
02:59:55,200 --> 02:59:59,879
Speaker 5: day and said that was one on one and it wasn't.

3448
03:00:00,320 --> 03:00:02,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, should we explain what one on one like is

3449
03:00:02,879 --> 03:00:03,440
Speaker 3: supposed to be?

3450
03:00:04,440 --> 03:00:09,800
Speaker 5: Yeah, So one on one is. It doesn't necessarily have

3451
03:00:09,879 --> 03:00:11,440
Speaker 5: to be on one on one, but it should be

3452
03:00:11,640 --> 03:00:19,160
Speaker 5: between at least a union organizer and another person. It

3453
03:00:19,240 --> 03:00:24,160
Speaker 5: could potentially be another more seasoned organizer helping be a

3454
03:00:24,240 --> 03:00:27,720
Speaker 5: more noviced one along with during the one on one.

3455
03:00:28,360 --> 03:00:33,640
Speaker 5: That could be a thing, But ideally they are just

3456
03:00:34,440 --> 03:00:39,440
Speaker 5: one or two organizers talking to one workplace employee about

3457
03:00:41,360 --> 03:00:46,920
Speaker 5: initially anyway, just a non committal discussion on where what

3458
03:00:47,120 --> 03:00:50,560
Speaker 5: their issues are in the workplace, what grievances they might have,

3459
03:00:51,280 --> 03:00:57,520
Speaker 5: and what their current stances on workplace organizing.

3460
03:00:58,320 --> 03:01:00,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, Okay, And another think I want to sort of

3461
03:01:00,440 --> 03:01:05,000
Speaker 3: get into is the role of like having having a

3462
03:01:05,040 --> 03:01:07,160
Speaker 3: way to talk to people outside of work and having

3463
03:01:07,280 --> 03:01:10,360
Speaker 3: just sort of a collaborative space where people talk about

3464
03:01:10,400 --> 03:01:12,560
Speaker 3: and I think this is something that like, I don't know,

3465
03:01:13,760 --> 03:01:14,920
Speaker 3: I think this this is you know, this is one

3466
03:01:14,920 --> 03:01:16,800
Speaker 3: of the big things. I think that that this is

3467
03:01:16,879 --> 03:01:19,039
Speaker 3: one of the big things that's changed in the past,

3468
03:01:19,640 --> 03:01:21,880
Speaker 3: you know, maybe like decade and a half or so.

3469
03:01:24,440 --> 03:01:27,320
Speaker 3: Is that how like the the the actual space in

3470
03:01:27,400 --> 03:01:30,800
Speaker 3: which people talk about a union like tends on to

3471
03:01:30,840 --> 03:01:33,440
Speaker 3: be a physical space anymore. It tends to be sort

3472
03:01:33,480 --> 03:01:36,680
Speaker 3: of either like a signal chat or like a Facebook chat,

3473
03:01:36,840 --> 03:01:39,720
Speaker 3: like a I guess what'sapp technically is owned by Facebook,

3474
03:01:39,920 --> 03:01:42,920
Speaker 3: but yeah, and so yeah, I want to talk a

3475
03:01:43,000 --> 03:01:45,120
Speaker 3: bit about that, and also I guess get into the

3476
03:01:45,160 --> 03:01:47,520
Speaker 3: sort of security problems that you can have with this,

3477
03:01:47,840 --> 03:01:53,119
Speaker 3: because yeah, yeah, there's so that's what we did.

3478
03:01:53,520 --> 03:01:57,760
Speaker 5: We had a group chat on Facebook Messenger to talk

3479
03:01:57,800 --> 03:02:01,320
Speaker 5: to everyone about the union and everything like that. And

3480
03:02:02,560 --> 03:02:06,240
Speaker 5: there's a lot of pros to having a centralized group chat.

3481
03:02:06,320 --> 03:02:08,800
Speaker 5: Don't get me wrong. It makes an easy way to

3482
03:02:08,840 --> 03:02:11,240
Speaker 5: communicate when you're trying to take actions to other people.

3483
03:02:12,040 --> 03:02:17,160
Speaker 5: It can be helpful to do any last minute coordination needed,

3484
03:02:17,920 --> 03:02:19,920
Speaker 5: It can be useful to make sure everyone's on the

3485
03:02:19,959 --> 03:02:25,520
Speaker 5: same page, but there's also major drawbacks to it. One,

3486
03:02:25,600 --> 03:02:28,879
Speaker 5: as you mentioned, there's big privacy concerns, and we ran

3487
03:02:28,959 --> 03:02:35,680
Speaker 5: into that during the campaign. If with anything organizing, you're

3488
03:02:35,720 --> 03:02:39,240
Speaker 5: only as secure as your weakest link, And if you

3489
03:02:39,400 --> 03:02:42,360
Speaker 5: have people you do not completely one hundred percent trust

3490
03:02:42,400 --> 03:02:47,840
Speaker 5: in your group chat, someone could leak everything, either wittingly

3491
03:02:48,120 --> 03:02:52,080
Speaker 5: or unwittingly. In our case it was wittingly, but you

3492
03:02:52,280 --> 03:02:55,000
Speaker 5: very well could have someone who isn't being careful and

3493
03:02:55,200 --> 03:02:59,280
Speaker 5: might show the group chat to someone else who they

3494
03:02:59,320 --> 03:03:03,560
Speaker 5: shouldn't accident And unless everyone's on the same page about

3495
03:03:04,160 --> 03:03:09,560
Speaker 5: best security practices, you're not going to get very far

3496
03:03:09,879 --> 03:03:15,560
Speaker 5: with having that. And for another, doing any form of

3497
03:03:15,720 --> 03:03:20,920
Speaker 5: organizing over texts and a major capacity is really hard. Yeah,

3498
03:03:21,840 --> 03:03:26,800
Speaker 5: there's so many issues with like making sure people are

3499
03:03:27,040 --> 03:03:32,080
Speaker 5: understanding their tone and undercommunicating properly and just meeting each

3500
03:03:32,120 --> 03:03:34,480
Speaker 5: other on the same level that you really can't do

3501
03:03:34,680 --> 03:03:40,160
Speaker 5: over text like you can do in person. If a

3502
03:03:40,280 --> 03:03:43,680
Speaker 5: text medium should, in my view, only be there to

3503
03:03:43,800 --> 03:03:48,600
Speaker 5: facilitate interactions that are later done at best in person,

3504
03:03:49,320 --> 03:03:52,959
Speaker 5: but if not, they can be done through like video calls.

3505
03:03:53,280 --> 03:03:56,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, And like as much as zoom can be really annoying, like,

3506
03:03:56,879 --> 03:03:59,480
Speaker 3: it is way more productive than trying to do things

3507
03:03:59,480 --> 03:04:03,240
Speaker 3: two text. Like yeah, just like having just like just

3508
03:04:03,320 --> 03:04:06,560
Speaker 3: like having a weekly zoom meeting. You know, like like

3509
03:04:06,640 --> 03:04:08,840
Speaker 3: there there's there's a lot of like cases where you like,

3510
03:04:08,879 --> 03:04:11,080
Speaker 3: you know, you literally physically can't like be in the

3511
03:04:11,120 --> 03:04:14,560
Speaker 3: same place, and you know, and if if that's that's

3512
03:04:14,600 --> 03:04:17,400
Speaker 3: the thing you're dealing with, like, yeah, doing video calls

3513
03:04:17,600 --> 03:04:23,080
Speaker 3: and stuff like that makes it way way easier, for sure.

3514
03:04:23,560 --> 03:04:29,040
Speaker 5: It It is a way better medium to do anything

3515
03:04:29,440 --> 03:04:35,600
Speaker 5: union related with. And it's also much easier to bond

3516
03:04:35,680 --> 03:04:39,520
Speaker 5: with people over video chat too, And that's a huge

3517
03:04:39,600 --> 03:04:43,360
Speaker 5: part of the union is connecting with your other your

3518
03:04:43,400 --> 03:04:48,240
Speaker 5: pillow workers and meeting each other on that same level

3519
03:04:48,520 --> 03:04:53,120
Speaker 5: and bonded over your shared interests, over your share what

3520
03:04:53,320 --> 03:04:57,560
Speaker 5: you desire from union, what you desire from your workplace.

3521
03:04:59,480 --> 03:05:03,119
Speaker 5: You can't really do that easily anyway over text. I'm

3522
03:05:03,120 --> 03:05:06,520
Speaker 5: sure someone somewhere has done it, but it's not recommended

3523
03:05:06,640 --> 03:05:07,800
Speaker 5: for me anyway.

3524
03:05:08,120 --> 03:05:11,200
Speaker 3: Okay, Unfortunately, we need to do another thing that's not text,

3525
03:05:11,320 --> 03:05:15,000
Speaker 3: which is ads. You can tell were doing great on

3526
03:05:15,040 --> 03:05:17,320
Speaker 3: the ad pivots here, it's fine. I was I was

3527
03:05:17,400 --> 03:05:23,800
Speaker 3: watching what's his name, the guy the right way shipthead

3528
03:05:23,800 --> 03:05:25,560
Speaker 3: guy who like had a thing with Samantha Bee for

3529
03:05:25,600 --> 03:05:28,120
Speaker 3: a little bit. Glenn Beck. That's the one I was

3530
03:05:28,160 --> 03:05:31,720
Speaker 3: watching Glenn Beck, and I was like, oh no, this guy,

3531
03:05:31,920 --> 03:05:34,400
Speaker 3: this guy is This guy's ad pivot was just racism.

3532
03:05:34,959 --> 03:05:36,560
Speaker 5: So you know, we could do.

3533
03:05:39,120 --> 03:05:42,080
Speaker 3: It could happen. Here are our second slogan, better ad

3534
03:05:42,200 --> 03:05:47,960
Speaker 3: pivots than Glenn Beck, and we are back, hopefully. I

3535
03:05:48,000 --> 03:05:50,360
Speaker 3: don't know. Maybe we'll get extremely unlucky and everything will

3536
03:05:50,400 --> 03:05:53,160
Speaker 3: be broken and this will immediately cut to a third ad.

3537
03:05:53,680 --> 03:05:59,400
Speaker 3: But assuming that it doesn't, I wanted to talk a

3538
03:05:59,480 --> 03:06:05,440
Speaker 3: bit awesome so about sort of the kinds of things

3539
03:06:05,440 --> 03:06:08,080
Speaker 3: that are necessary to get people to believe that a

3540
03:06:08,200 --> 03:06:14,519
Speaker 3: union can work, because that's you know, like or organization

3541
03:06:14,760 --> 03:06:18,880
Speaker 3: isn't just sort of a purely like it isn't just

3542
03:06:18,879 --> 03:06:21,320
Speaker 3: sort of a purely mechanical thing. It's also about morale,

3543
03:06:22,120 --> 03:06:24,720
Speaker 3: you know, as like, as much as it's about social relationships,

3544
03:06:24,720 --> 03:06:27,039
Speaker 3: about sort of morale, about people believing in the thing.

3545
03:06:27,160 --> 03:06:29,560
Speaker 3: So I wanted to ask, yeah, I guess talk a

3546
03:06:29,600 --> 03:06:32,640
Speaker 3: little bit about what that process is sort of like

3547
03:06:32,840 --> 03:06:33,960
Speaker 3: and what can happen to it.

3548
03:06:35,760 --> 03:06:40,120
Speaker 5: Yeah, so that's something an issue we ran into and

3549
03:06:40,600 --> 03:06:46,760
Speaker 5: make a union fairly early on, was keeping people motivated

3550
03:06:47,200 --> 03:06:50,680
Speaker 5: for the union and getting people wanting to be involved,

3551
03:06:50,760 --> 03:06:53,240
Speaker 5: because one of the most common things you'll hear when

3552
03:06:53,320 --> 03:06:54,960
Speaker 5: trying to organize the union is people like, oh, I

3553
03:06:55,000 --> 03:06:58,320
Speaker 5: can't afford to lose this job. I have a family

3554
03:06:58,440 --> 03:07:02,920
Speaker 5: to feed, I have built to pay. You'll see people

3555
03:07:03,120 --> 03:07:05,640
Speaker 5: saying they don't want to risk their careers. If you're

3556
03:07:05,720 --> 03:07:12,240
Speaker 5: in a more professional environment, you'll see people just not

3557
03:07:12,440 --> 03:07:15,920
Speaker 5: wanting to take the risks that could jeopardize them. And

3558
03:07:16,040 --> 03:07:19,480
Speaker 5: it's important when you're kind of trying to address those

3559
03:07:19,520 --> 03:07:28,760
Speaker 5: concerns to meet them where they're at. You're not gonna

3560
03:07:29,280 --> 03:07:31,480
Speaker 5: you can't make those concerns go away because they're real.

3561
03:07:32,360 --> 03:07:35,080
Speaker 5: When you're organizing a union, there is a risk you

3562
03:07:35,120 --> 03:07:37,840
Speaker 5: could get fired and get punished for it. It happened

3563
03:07:37,840 --> 03:07:43,840
Speaker 5: to me. It comes with the territory. But if you

3564
03:07:43,959 --> 03:07:48,520
Speaker 5: do things safely and you do things right, it's a

3565
03:07:48,680 --> 03:07:52,040
Speaker 5: much safer option than not doing any And that's the

3566
03:07:52,120 --> 03:07:53,920
Speaker 5: main thing you kind of want to talk to people

3567
03:07:54,000 --> 03:07:58,320
Speaker 5: about is detailing their grievances and talking about how nothing's

3568
03:07:58,360 --> 03:08:02,000
Speaker 5: going to change without you. You can't butter up to

3569
03:08:02,040 --> 03:08:04,960
Speaker 5: your bosses and expect them to suddenly turn around on you.

3570
03:08:05,840 --> 03:08:09,320
Speaker 5: The most they'll do is play pretend for a little

3571
03:08:09,360 --> 03:08:14,920
Speaker 5: bit until things go right back to normal. And you

3572
03:08:15,040 --> 03:08:20,600
Speaker 5: kind of want to talk to people about also why

3573
03:08:23,040 --> 03:08:26,640
Speaker 5: it's more beneficial to them to just stick with the

3574
03:08:26,840 --> 03:08:31,440
Speaker 5: union because their strength is in numbers, and that's something

3575
03:08:31,560 --> 03:08:33,920
Speaker 5: that a lot of regular folk can kind of lose,

3576
03:08:34,680 --> 03:08:37,640
Speaker 5: is that they're not going to be an envelope. When

3577
03:08:37,720 --> 03:08:41,440
Speaker 5: someone's viewing getting involved, a lot of the time they're thinking, oh,

3578
03:08:41,520 --> 03:08:43,560
Speaker 5: if I get involved, I'm going to get fired. They're

3579
03:08:43,600 --> 03:08:47,000
Speaker 5: not thinking about the strengthen numbers. Sure, you just you

3580
03:08:47,280 --> 03:08:52,240
Speaker 5: yourself as the only one pushing for change in a workplace, Yeah,

3581
03:08:52,360 --> 03:08:54,680
Speaker 5: there's a decent chance you'll get fired. But if you

3582
03:08:54,720 --> 03:08:56,720
Speaker 5: have a whole crew of ten people all who are

3583
03:08:56,800 --> 03:09:00,840
Speaker 5: essential running the operations pushing for change, suddenly you're going

3584
03:09:00,920 --> 03:09:04,560
Speaker 5: to see things shifting a much different way. And so

3585
03:09:05,280 --> 03:09:10,720
Speaker 5: building that solidarity among people is important, and I think

3586
03:09:10,920 --> 03:09:16,520
Speaker 5: is the I want to say, the absolute best way,

3587
03:09:16,720 --> 03:09:20,440
Speaker 5: because there isn't an absolute best way to handle those concerns,

3588
03:09:20,879 --> 03:09:23,840
Speaker 5: but it's definitely a way that can be effective if

3589
03:09:23,920 --> 03:09:24,360
Speaker 5: done right.

3590
03:09:25,680 --> 03:09:30,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I guess, okay, I guess I guess we

3591
03:09:30,280 --> 03:09:34,000
Speaker 3: should go into how it sort of came apart. Yeah,

3592
03:09:34,760 --> 03:09:37,840
Speaker 3: because unfortunately, you know, and this I think is the

3593
03:09:37,879 --> 03:09:40,360
Speaker 3: thing that is depressing but true, which is that a

3594
03:09:40,400 --> 03:09:44,440
Speaker 3: lot of union like statistic well, actually I don't have

3595
03:09:44,520 --> 03:09:46,279
Speaker 3: the numbers. I'm not gonna I'm not going to actually

3596
03:09:46,320 --> 03:09:48,880
Speaker 3: say that, but a lot of union campaigns don't work.

3597
03:09:49,080 --> 03:09:53,440
Speaker 3: And you know, sometimes it's because like something bad happens,

3598
03:09:53,480 --> 03:09:55,960
Speaker 3: Sometimes because it's just you know, stuff happens out of

3599
03:09:56,000 --> 03:10:00,760
Speaker 3: your control. Sometimes it's I don't know, like a pande starts.

3600
03:10:02,400 --> 03:10:04,600
Speaker 3: But yeah, I was talked about what happened here and

3601
03:10:04,920 --> 03:10:07,680
Speaker 3: how to sort of avoid that because it sucks.

3602
03:10:09,800 --> 03:10:11,560
Speaker 5: So there's a lot of things that can be a

3603
03:10:11,640 --> 03:10:18,080
Speaker 5: downfall in the union. In the case of McDonald's, our

3604
03:10:18,440 --> 03:10:21,360
Speaker 5: main downfall, there was a lot of you know, little

3605
03:10:21,440 --> 03:10:25,360
Speaker 5: things we did wrong that didn't help at all that

3606
03:10:25,480 --> 03:10:31,720
Speaker 5: definitely just made matters worse in the end. But the

3607
03:10:32,080 --> 03:10:35,640
Speaker 5: straw that broke the camel's back was not being careful

3608
03:10:35,680 --> 03:10:42,600
Speaker 5: with who we trusted and Dan, as I referred to

3609
03:10:42,680 --> 03:10:45,720
Speaker 5: in the article, he was the one that caused the

3610
03:10:45,840 --> 03:10:51,360
Speaker 5: penultimate constructure of it. COVID contributed heavily, but I feel

3611
03:10:51,400 --> 03:10:53,960
Speaker 5: like if it weren't for Dan, the union could have

3612
03:10:54,000 --> 03:10:56,400
Speaker 5: had still a fighting chance in spite of COVID. Now,

3613
03:10:56,440 --> 03:10:58,280
Speaker 5: if it worked for COVID, I think the union also

3614
03:10:58,320 --> 03:11:04,360
Speaker 5: could have stuck around the mixture of external factors and

3615
03:11:04,520 --> 03:11:07,200
Speaker 5: internal did the downfall. But in terms of things we

3616
03:11:07,200 --> 03:11:14,480
Speaker 5: could have actively prevented, Dan was the main thing that

3617
03:11:14,560 --> 03:11:17,880
Speaker 5: we could have done. Approached way differently. We could have

3618
03:11:18,000 --> 03:11:23,200
Speaker 5: approached handling new people in a much better light. We

3619
03:11:23,320 --> 03:11:26,840
Speaker 5: should have had a centralized group being the ones with

3620
03:11:26,959 --> 03:11:32,640
Speaker 5: all the communications everything, and let people prove their trust

3621
03:11:32,720 --> 03:11:35,160
Speaker 5: to the union over time by doing taxes for it

3622
03:11:35,440 --> 03:11:41,640
Speaker 5: and just by building relationships with people and fostering stuff

3623
03:11:41,680 --> 03:11:45,040
Speaker 5: that's already there. Because Dan was two faced, we all

3624
03:11:45,080 --> 03:11:46,680
Speaker 5: thought he was our friend, which is why we thought

3625
03:11:46,720 --> 03:11:52,480
Speaker 5: we could trust him. But he was in it just

3626
03:11:52,680 --> 03:11:55,680
Speaker 5: to try and get some benefits for him, which is

3627
03:11:55,720 --> 03:11:59,640
Speaker 5: why he snitched. He thought maybe he would get, you know,

3628
03:12:00,120 --> 03:12:04,880
Speaker 5: some type of promotion or something he didn't, which side note,

3629
03:12:05,080 --> 03:12:07,160
Speaker 5: it doesn't help you to snitch on your union. If

3630
03:12:07,200 --> 03:12:09,360
Speaker 5: anyone out there is thinking of doing it, you're just

3631
03:12:09,440 --> 03:12:12,400
Speaker 5: going to screw yourself and everyone else over and nobody

3632
03:12:12,560 --> 03:12:17,840
Speaker 5: likes to snitch. Yeah, but we should have been a

3633
03:12:17,920 --> 03:12:21,720
Speaker 5: lot more cautious with how we approached people and shouldn't

3634
03:12:21,760 --> 03:12:26,800
Speaker 5: have just been doing things for the sake of doing them.

3635
03:12:27,120 --> 03:12:30,400
Speaker 5: Like we shouldn't have been approaching people inside the workplace.

3636
03:12:30,520 --> 03:12:34,880
Speaker 5: We shouldn't have been inviting everyone and everyone to all

3637
03:12:34,920 --> 03:12:42,360
Speaker 5: our confidential group chats. We should have been cautious of

3638
03:12:42,600 --> 03:12:45,760
Speaker 5: who we were around and what we were saying around people,

3639
03:12:46,000 --> 03:12:51,520
Speaker 5: and how we were going about it. That's the core

3640
03:12:51,600 --> 03:12:53,680
Speaker 5: of it. I mean, it's.

3641
03:12:53,600 --> 03:12:56,920
Speaker 3: Recklessness, yeah, And I mean I think, like you know,

3642
03:12:58,360 --> 03:13:00,960
Speaker 3: obviously it is not good if the exist, like if

3643
03:13:01,080 --> 03:13:02,840
Speaker 3: if the existence of your union a bunch of your

3644
03:13:02,879 --> 03:13:06,960
Speaker 3: stuff gets leaked, like this is not necessarily fatal, like

3645
03:13:07,200 --> 03:13:09,960
Speaker 3: I've I've been involved in campaigns where like that's happened

3646
03:13:10,080 --> 03:13:13,640
Speaker 3: and we want anyways, but it could definitely be. It's like,

3647
03:13:13,760 --> 03:13:17,480
Speaker 3: you know, especially like especially early on in the process,

3648
03:13:17,520 --> 03:13:22,240
Speaker 3: and especially like the more precarious stuff is uh it, Yeah,

3649
03:13:22,280 --> 03:13:27,840
Speaker 3: it's not great. I can get yeah pretty bad pretty quickly.

3650
03:13:28,800 --> 03:13:28,920
Speaker 8: You know.

3651
03:13:29,120 --> 03:13:30,480
Speaker 3: I guess the thing that I wanted to sort of

3652
03:13:30,520 --> 03:13:34,040
Speaker 3: ask about was like, Okay, so historically up until the

3653
03:13:34,160 --> 03:13:38,920
Speaker 3: last I mean I think was was was Burgerville the

3654
03:13:39,000 --> 03:13:42,720
Speaker 3: first like modern fast food union. I think it might

3655
03:13:42,800 --> 03:13:46,640
Speaker 3: have been. It was either or yeah, it was one

3656
03:13:46,680 --> 03:13:49,120
Speaker 3: of the two. Up up until like really the last

3657
03:13:50,120 --> 03:13:52,959
Speaker 3: like like I think, like post like twenty fifteen twenty sixteen,

3658
03:13:54,000 --> 03:13:57,920
Speaker 3: fast food has been really really difficult to organize, and

3659
03:13:58,240 --> 03:14:02,400
Speaker 3: a lot of a lot of unions either just didn't

3660
03:14:02,520 --> 03:14:06,360
Speaker 3: try or did these kind of like weird PR stunt

3661
03:14:06,440 --> 03:14:10,400
Speaker 3: campaigns that were you know, like Fight fifteen attached things

3662
03:14:10,400 --> 03:14:11,960
Speaker 3: where it's like, wow, we're not actually really trying to

3663
03:14:11,959 --> 03:14:16,360
Speaker 3: get a union, we're trying to like get PR stuff

3664
03:14:16,440 --> 03:14:19,800
Speaker 3: for Fight fifteen. But this is I don't know, this

3665
03:14:19,879 --> 03:14:21,520
Speaker 3: is the thing I think it's interesting about the idew

3666
03:14:21,800 --> 03:14:25,720
Speaker 3: about the idea. This is the thing that's interesting about

3667
03:14:25,760 --> 03:14:28,400
Speaker 3: the industrial workers of the world specifically, is that they've

3668
03:14:28,640 --> 03:14:34,320
Speaker 3: actually like gone in and seriously attempted to do it,

3669
03:14:34,440 --> 03:14:36,480
Speaker 3: and they sort of finally broke through it a couple

3670
03:14:36,520 --> 03:14:39,320
Speaker 3: of places, and you know this this McDonald's campaign didn't work.

3671
03:14:40,200 --> 03:14:41,720
Speaker 3: But what was kind of interesting to me about it

3672
03:14:41,840 --> 03:14:45,760
Speaker 3: is like I don't know, like how kind of I

3673
03:14:45,800 --> 03:14:47,520
Speaker 3: don't know if normal is the right word of a

3674
03:14:47,600 --> 03:14:50,320
Speaker 3: campaign it was, but it's it looks a lot like

3675
03:14:51,920 --> 03:14:54,160
Speaker 3: I don't know, it looked like it looks a lot

3676
03:14:54,240 --> 03:14:56,200
Speaker 3: like campaigns that I've been involved in that were like

3677
03:14:56,400 --> 03:14:59,039
Speaker 3: not in the fast food industry. And now I guess

3678
03:14:59,040 --> 03:15:02,760
Speaker 3: I was wondering a bit about, like, to what extent

3679
03:15:03,200 --> 03:15:07,720
Speaker 3: were the sort of tactics shaped by like the very specific,

3680
03:15:07,840 --> 03:15:10,640
Speaker 3: weird conditions of fast food, and to what extent it

3681
03:15:10,760 --> 03:15:12,160
Speaker 3: was just sort of like the stuff you'd use in

3682
03:15:12,200 --> 03:15:12,880
Speaker 3: any workplace.

3683
03:15:13,840 --> 03:15:16,920
Speaker 5: So a lot of our base model was just stuff

3684
03:15:16,959 --> 03:15:19,119
Speaker 5: you'd use in any workplace. Because at the time we're

3685
03:15:19,200 --> 03:15:23,240
Speaker 5: doing this, I think the only fast food unions that

3686
03:15:23,320 --> 03:15:29,120
Speaker 5: were around were like Jimmy John's and Burbertville. I think

3687
03:15:29,200 --> 03:15:32,560
Speaker 5: those are the only two that had any publicity. This

3688
03:15:32,720 --> 03:15:36,600
Speaker 5: was before all the major Starbucks campaigns.

3689
03:15:37,640 --> 03:15:38,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's all pretty recent.

3690
03:15:39,720 --> 03:15:44,240
Speaker 5: Yeah, And so we didn't have much of a playbook

3691
03:15:44,680 --> 03:15:47,680
Speaker 5: for how to approach things in a fast food environment. Specifically,

3692
03:15:48,680 --> 03:15:50,920
Speaker 5: a lot of what we were actually emulated the model

3693
03:15:51,000 --> 03:15:56,120
Speaker 5: on was factory environments and things like that, because there

3694
03:15:56,280 --> 03:16:02,760
Speaker 5: is somewhat of a similarity of having in both between

3695
03:16:02,879 --> 03:16:06,199
Speaker 5: fast food and factories. With factories and both fast food,

3696
03:16:07,720 --> 03:16:11,440
Speaker 5: you have a kind of assembly line model, you know,

3697
03:16:11,720 --> 03:16:15,200
Speaker 5: crank out or crank out work, crank out work, get

3698
03:16:15,280 --> 03:16:18,320
Speaker 5: things out at a rapid pace, and stick to your job.

3699
03:16:18,760 --> 03:16:20,400
Speaker 5: Maybe do it a little bit of clean up now

3700
03:16:20,480 --> 03:16:23,600
Speaker 5: and then, but you stick to what you're doing, and

3701
03:16:25,840 --> 03:16:30,080
Speaker 5: you're kind of isolated from other stations a bit. You

3702
03:16:30,200 --> 03:16:32,920
Speaker 5: have some overlap, but only in so far as your

3703
03:16:33,000 --> 03:16:35,560
Speaker 5: job will allow, but you might be able to talk

3704
03:16:35,600 --> 03:16:38,800
Speaker 5: to each other and you shared break areas. That kind

3705
03:16:38,840 --> 03:16:43,720
Speaker 5: of structure informed how we approached it. By us, what

3706
03:16:43,920 --> 03:16:47,879
Speaker 5: we tried to do was talk to people we didn't

3707
03:16:47,959 --> 03:16:51,800
Speaker 5: have external contacts with in areas that were away from cameras,

3708
03:16:52,440 --> 03:16:54,720
Speaker 5: in areas that were away from other people who might

3709
03:16:54,800 --> 03:17:03,400
Speaker 5: be able to hear. But there is better ways of

3710
03:17:03,520 --> 03:17:13,360
Speaker 5: doing it, and I think other campaigns benefited out. They're

3711
03:17:13,560 --> 03:17:19,160
Speaker 5: likely benefited from having more seasoned organizers at the core

3712
03:17:19,240 --> 03:17:22,000
Speaker 5: of it, because that's also at least for me and

3713
03:17:22,120 --> 03:17:25,360
Speaker 5: my experience with it. Something that didn't help us was

3714
03:17:25,440 --> 03:17:28,640
Speaker 5: having someone who with no real experience doing something at

3715
03:17:28,680 --> 03:17:31,360
Speaker 5: the forefront of that. I'm not to say that someone

3716
03:17:31,360 --> 03:17:34,920
Speaker 5: of no experience can't do amazing things. There's countless examples

3717
03:17:34,959 --> 03:17:38,400
Speaker 5: of unions that were ran by people with no experience

3718
03:17:38,520 --> 03:17:40,680
Speaker 5: at all who's just jumped right into it and did

3719
03:17:40,760 --> 03:17:47,000
Speaker 5: amazing jobs. But it's important to get a diversity of

3720
03:17:47,120 --> 03:17:49,920
Speaker 5: people with different walks of life at the core of it,

3721
03:17:50,080 --> 03:17:58,080
Speaker 5: people with different perspectives. So many different people involved at

3722
03:17:58,160 --> 03:18:02,000
Speaker 5: the core as a kind of central organizing committee can

3723
03:18:02,120 --> 03:18:07,640
Speaker 5: do you wonders with a union. Because we had just

3724
03:18:07,879 --> 03:18:12,600
Speaker 5: a few young left leaning people, a few young left

3725
03:18:12,680 --> 03:18:17,000
Speaker 5: leaning white people, most of which were male presenting. I

3726
03:18:17,240 --> 03:18:21,959
Speaker 5: wasn't out as trans there, so I was presenting as masculine.

3727
03:18:22,240 --> 03:18:24,680
Speaker 5: The other people I was with, they were all CIS men,

3728
03:18:26,840 --> 03:18:32,040
Speaker 5: with one exception, two exceptions. Sorry, my memory is a

3729
03:18:32,080 --> 03:18:37,120
Speaker 5: little on the fits. But we needed more people with

3730
03:18:37,280 --> 03:18:40,760
Speaker 5: different perspectives in there. We needed more, and there was

3731
03:18:40,840 --> 03:18:43,560
Speaker 5: plenty to be found in the workplace, but we just

3732
03:18:45,400 --> 03:18:48,960
Speaker 5: we neglected to include them in the core organizing the committee.

3733
03:18:48,959 --> 03:18:54,119
Speaker 5: And I think that's something that could really benefit unions

3734
03:18:54,160 --> 03:18:56,960
Speaker 5: and probably is a major strength of a lot of

3735
03:18:57,000 --> 03:19:03,160
Speaker 5: the successful ones is having a diverse main primary group

3736
03:19:03,200 --> 03:19:05,959
Speaker 5: of central organizers. I don't want to say central organizers,

3737
03:19:06,040 --> 03:19:11,680
Speaker 5: more like core organizers, because the solidarity union model isn't

3738
03:19:11,800 --> 03:19:16,120
Speaker 5: like hierarchical, but just a central group of people involved

3739
03:19:16,200 --> 03:19:18,800
Speaker 5: that seek to do the main leg work.

3740
03:19:20,040 --> 03:19:22,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, and you know, I mean this has been I

3741
03:19:22,400 --> 03:19:24,840
Speaker 3: think like one of the things that made the like

3742
03:19:24,959 --> 03:19:30,040
Speaker 3: the Starbucks campaign's work was like they well with with

3743
03:19:30,080 --> 03:19:32,280
Speaker 3: Starbucks can tape specifically, it was a lot of like

3744
03:19:32,680 --> 03:19:34,879
Speaker 3: find the queerest person in the workplace to start talking

3745
03:19:34,920 --> 03:19:37,680
Speaker 3: to them. But having the core group of people working

3746
03:19:37,760 --> 03:19:41,120
Speaker 3: on things being as diverse as possible is good both

3747
03:19:41,160 --> 03:19:43,480
Speaker 3: in like an immediate practical sense and it is sort

3748
03:19:43,520 --> 03:19:46,000
Speaker 3: of like long term to chiefe sense and the like

3749
03:19:46,160 --> 03:19:49,520
Speaker 3: faster that happens, the better. Yeah, Okay, do you do

3750
03:19:49,600 --> 03:19:51,520
Speaker 3: you have anything else that you from this that you

3751
03:19:51,640 --> 03:19:52,840
Speaker 3: think people should know about?

3752
03:19:53,680 --> 03:19:57,520
Speaker 5: I would say, if you can get external help from

3753
03:19:57,520 --> 03:19:59,720
Speaker 5: a union, if you've never done it before, and even

3754
03:19:59,720 --> 03:20:03,440
Speaker 5: if you having someone to balance ideas off of can wonders.

3755
03:20:04,080 --> 03:20:06,560
Speaker 5: There's a lot of fun with the IWW that are

3756
03:20:06,600 --> 03:20:10,440
Speaker 5: more than willing to offer helping hand to people trying

3757
03:20:10,440 --> 03:20:12,680
Speaker 5: to get started on a union campaign. All you got

3758
03:20:12,800 --> 03:20:16,240
Speaker 5: to do is reach out and ask, and I'm sure

3759
03:20:16,280 --> 03:20:19,000
Speaker 5: there will be someone in your local who's willing to help.

3760
03:20:19,600 --> 03:20:22,200
Speaker 5: But if even if there's not, you can probably get

3761
03:20:22,240 --> 03:20:27,040
Speaker 5: someone to help you more remotely too, And even just

3762
03:20:27,120 --> 03:20:29,000
Speaker 5: a little bit of guidance can go a long way.

3763
03:20:29,560 --> 03:20:35,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, Union good, McDonald's bad. Be careful while you're organizing,

3764
03:20:35,959 --> 03:20:39,880
Speaker 3: and yeah, be strategic inspired about it. Well, okay, do

3765
03:20:40,040 --> 03:20:44,840
Speaker 3: you want people to find you first? And if so where? Yeah?

3766
03:20:45,360 --> 03:20:49,240
Speaker 5: I can be found over unfortunately for now, on Twitter,

3767
03:20:49,520 --> 03:20:57,960
Speaker 5: at my magazine, also on Mastodon, much more preferably, and

3768
03:20:58,160 --> 03:21:01,879
Speaker 5: those are the main places I'm at. If you want

3769
03:21:01,920 --> 03:21:04,920
Speaker 5: to reach me to, my email is found on my

3770
03:21:05,000 --> 03:21:07,920
Speaker 5: Twitter and masked it on my relating at gmail dot com.

3771
03:21:09,760 --> 03:21:11,040
Speaker 5: It's the best way to get hold of me.

3772
03:21:12,200 --> 03:21:12,400
Speaker 7: Yeah.

3773
03:21:12,480 --> 03:21:14,760
Speaker 3: Well we'll put a link to the strange meta article

3774
03:21:15,560 --> 03:21:19,120
Speaker 3: in the in the description so you can read that

3775
03:21:19,160 --> 03:21:23,560
Speaker 3: to you because it's great. Yeah, Mirror, thank you so

3776
03:21:23,640 --> 03:21:25,720
Speaker 3: much for joining But I was gonna say us, but

3777
03:21:25,760 --> 03:21:29,040
Speaker 3: I guess thank you so much for joining me. Uh yeah,

3778
03:21:29,040 --> 03:21:30,520
Speaker 3: it was it was great talking to you. It was

3779
03:21:31,280 --> 03:21:32,080
Speaker 3: fuck McDonald's.

3780
03:21:34,280 --> 03:21:37,000
Speaker 5: Thank you so much for having Yeah, it was really

3781
03:21:37,040 --> 03:21:39,480
Speaker 5: great being here. Been a huge fan of this podcast

3782
03:21:39,560 --> 03:21:42,840
Speaker 5: for a while, so I was like when when I

3783
03:21:42,920 --> 03:21:45,440
Speaker 5: first heard about potentially being on here. I was stoked

3784
03:21:45,720 --> 03:21:47,240
Speaker 5: and also yeah, fuck McDonald's.

3785
03:21:49,640 --> 03:21:52,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, I guess, Yeah, this has been the podcast that

3786
03:21:52,360 --> 03:21:55,000
Speaker 3: you're listening to. You can find us that happen here

3787
03:21:55,080 --> 03:21:58,640
Speaker 3: pod on Twitter and Instagram. You can find us the

3788
03:21:58,720 --> 03:22:02,280
Speaker 3: rest of the stuff that people do at cools on media.

3789
03:22:02,320 --> 03:22:04,199
Speaker 3: I guess, I guess. I actually I have not plugged

3790
03:22:04,400 --> 03:22:06,640
Speaker 3: the do show that's been happening. There'll be a couple

3791
03:22:06,640 --> 03:22:08,120
Speaker 3: of episodes out by the time we do this. But

3792
03:22:08,920 --> 03:22:12,039
Speaker 3: Coolson has done a show with Jake Canahan called Sad

3793
03:22:12,120 --> 03:22:17,359
Speaker 3: Oligarchs that's about the Russian oligarchs who've been mysteriously dieinggue

3794
03:22:18,640 --> 03:22:22,640
Speaker 3: over the past, like as the start of the Ukraine. Yeah,

3795
03:22:22,959 --> 03:22:26,600
Speaker 3: probably only getting more relevant as whatever fucking bullshit is

3796
03:22:26,640 --> 03:22:30,320
Speaker 3: happening there right now plays out. I don't know, but

3797
03:22:30,520 --> 03:22:32,000
Speaker 3: by the time this goes up, you'll probably have a

3798
03:22:32,040 --> 03:22:35,360
Speaker 3: better idea of what happened or didn't happen. But yeah,

3799
03:22:35,480 --> 03:22:38,880
Speaker 3: go listen to that. Yeah, and go start a union

3800
03:22:38,920 --> 03:22:41,880
Speaker 3: in your workplace or alternately, light light light something on

3801
03:22:42,000 --> 03:22:47,880
Speaker 3: fire legally not the place something campfires, Explorers, we could

3802
03:22:47,920 --> 03:22:50,280
Speaker 3: make this. We have the technology.

3803
03:22:52,800 --> 03:22:54,119
Speaker 5: Union smores.

3804
03:22:55,200 --> 03:23:13,840
Speaker 1: Best kind, welcome back to it could happen here, a

3805
03:23:13,959 --> 03:23:19,000
Speaker 1: podcast about it. It being bad things happening here here

3806
03:23:19,160 --> 03:23:24,120
Speaker 1: being you know, wherever you are. We're talking specifically about

3807
03:23:24,160 --> 03:23:28,119
Speaker 1: wherever you are. I'm Robert Evans, one of the hosts

3808
03:23:28,240 --> 03:23:31,800
Speaker 1: of this podcast, and with me today is a guy

3809
03:23:31,959 --> 03:23:36,160
Speaker 1: I have a lot of admiration for probably my favorite

3810
03:23:36,240 --> 03:23:40,200
Speaker 1: YouTube documentarian, which I guess would be the fastest way

3811
03:23:40,240 --> 03:23:41,600
Speaker 1: to sum up who you are and what you do,

3812
03:23:42,160 --> 03:23:45,080
Speaker 1: Dan Olsen from the channel Folding Ideas.

3813
03:23:46,040 --> 03:23:53,200
Speaker 3: Dan, Hi, Hi, keep doing, I'm doing well. Thanks for

3814
03:23:53,520 --> 03:23:54,320
Speaker 3: thanks for inviting me.

3815
03:23:54,920 --> 03:23:55,160
Speaker 5: Yeah.

3816
03:23:55,760 --> 03:23:58,080
Speaker 1: Now, Dan, you and I have like a topic of

3817
03:23:58,160 --> 03:24:01,199
Speaker 1: shared interest to discuss. But the first thing I wanted

3818
03:24:01,240 --> 03:24:04,080
Speaker 1: to talk about is your your name on the internet

3819
03:24:04,640 --> 03:24:06,040
Speaker 1: is a is foldable human?

3820
03:24:06,400 --> 03:24:06,600
Speaker 4: Yeah.

3821
03:24:07,320 --> 03:24:09,440
Speaker 1: I don't feel like I could fold you very well.

3822
03:24:10,080 --> 03:24:14,840
Speaker 10: No, Okay, So back in high school, I used to

3823
03:24:14,959 --> 03:24:17,920
Speaker 10: be like I was a really small guy, Like I

3824
03:24:18,000 --> 03:24:19,160
Speaker 10: was a really skinny guy.

3825
03:24:19,560 --> 03:24:19,720
Speaker 3: Huh.

3826
03:24:20,440 --> 03:24:23,440
Speaker 10: And you remember the you remember all the ads from

3827
03:24:23,480 --> 03:24:25,560
Speaker 10: the nineties for exercise equipment.

3828
03:24:26,400 --> 03:24:27,880
Speaker 3: I do remember some of that. Yeah.

3829
03:24:28,040 --> 03:24:30,960
Speaker 10: So the tagline that they always used for like the

3830
03:24:31,040 --> 03:24:33,440
Speaker 10: as scene on TV exercise equipment was that it folds

3831
03:24:33,480 --> 03:24:34,400
Speaker 10: for easy storage.

3832
03:24:35,320 --> 03:24:39,920
Speaker 3: Ah and being being dumb ass kids.

3833
03:24:40,080 --> 03:24:42,480
Speaker 10: You know, it's like one person in our friend group

3834
03:24:42,600 --> 03:24:44,520
Speaker 10: like has a car, but there's like seven of us,

3835
03:24:44,680 --> 03:24:46,800
Speaker 10: and so someone's got to ride in the trunk. And

3836
03:24:46,879 --> 03:24:48,800
Speaker 10: it's like, well, Dan gets to ride in the trunk,

3837
03:24:49,280 --> 03:24:51,000
Speaker 10: Like we're going to stick Dan in the trunk because

3838
03:24:51,000 --> 03:24:52,320
Speaker 10: he folds for easy storage.

3839
03:24:52,320 --> 03:24:54,480
Speaker 3: Because I was a small guy and so.

3840
03:24:56,320 --> 03:25:00,320
Speaker 10: It so I don't know why. When I would like

3841
03:25:00,560 --> 03:25:05,120
Speaker 10: busy Eric like trying to brand the channel, like, you know,

3842
03:25:05,200 --> 03:25:10,800
Speaker 10: a decade ago, I was like, I had this phrase

3843
03:25:10,840 --> 03:25:12,920
Speaker 10: that I was using with students that I was interacting with, was.

3844
03:25:13,080 --> 03:25:16,280
Speaker 3: Like, well, let's unfold that idea, you know, yeah, yeah, yeah, but.

3845
03:25:16,400 --> 03:25:18,520
Speaker 10: Like that was kind of like on my mind. So

3846
03:25:18,600 --> 03:25:21,360
Speaker 10: I was like, ah, well, we'll like call the channel

3847
03:25:21,520 --> 03:25:24,920
Speaker 10: like unfolding ideas. Unfolding didn't really like just sound good.

3848
03:25:25,000 --> 03:25:28,800
Speaker 10: So it's like, oh, folding ideas, uh and then well

3849
03:25:29,560 --> 03:25:33,480
Speaker 10: esthetic parallel to that, you know, foldable human. I don't

3850
03:25:33,520 --> 03:25:37,800
Speaker 10: know it, it just it it came to me and

3851
03:25:38,000 --> 03:25:42,320
Speaker 10: it sounded good, and it was nowhere on the internet.

3852
03:25:42,400 --> 03:25:45,240
Speaker 10: There was like no overlaps. So I'm like, all right, interesting,

3853
03:25:45,520 --> 03:25:47,360
Speaker 10: We're good to go. SEO locked in.

3854
03:25:48,680 --> 03:25:51,160
Speaker 1: That's an example of a thing that I you know,

3855
03:25:51,200 --> 03:25:53,040
Speaker 1: we're talking, We're gonna be talking a lot about stuff

3856
03:25:53,040 --> 03:25:56,080
Speaker 1: that's unsettling about our modern era and how the Internet

3857
03:25:56,160 --> 03:26:00,560
Speaker 1: has sort of altered human dynamics. The things that I

3858
03:26:00,600 --> 03:26:02,880
Speaker 1: think is kind of neat about it is its ability

3859
03:26:02,920 --> 03:26:07,240
Speaker 1: to kind of preserve an amber aspects of you from

3860
03:26:07,280 --> 03:26:09,879
Speaker 1: the deep past. Like I have one of my emails,

3861
03:26:09,959 --> 03:26:12,840
Speaker 1: like my personal email is a Gmail that I got

3862
03:26:13,080 --> 03:26:15,039
Speaker 1: back when you had to get an invite to get

3863
03:26:15,080 --> 03:26:18,320
Speaker 1: a Gmail, right like right when Gmail first became a thing.

3864
03:26:18,840 --> 03:26:21,080
Speaker 1: And it's like, I'm not going to say it on

3865
03:26:21,200 --> 03:26:23,400
Speaker 1: here because then my email will get bombarded with shit.

3866
03:26:23,480 --> 03:26:27,400
Speaker 1: But like it's it's like a stupid joke that doesn't

3867
03:26:27,440 --> 03:26:29,600
Speaker 1: really make any sense. And every time I give it

3868
03:26:29,680 --> 03:26:31,280
Speaker 1: to some of their like why is that your email?

3869
03:26:31,520 --> 03:26:33,600
Speaker 1: Because I was like twelve, Like don't I don't even

3870
03:26:33,680 --> 03:26:36,640
Speaker 1: remember why I set this thing. It's just this like

3871
03:26:37,160 --> 03:26:39,360
Speaker 1: moment of something I thought was funny when I was

3872
03:26:39,400 --> 03:26:43,119
Speaker 1: pre pubescent, frozen in amber forever, because that's the Internet

3873
03:26:43,240 --> 03:26:45,040
Speaker 1: does that in little ways for each of us.

3874
03:26:45,480 --> 03:26:50,560
Speaker 10: I definitely abandoned my original something Awful account because some

3875
03:26:50,800 --> 03:26:54,000
Speaker 10: likes like you know what, maybe not that user name anymore?

3876
03:26:54,480 --> 03:27:00,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, so you are so Dan if people are

3877
03:27:00,959 --> 03:27:04,240
Speaker 1: not familiar with you, and I'm gonna guess a significant

3878
03:27:04,320 --> 03:27:07,640
Speaker 1: chunk of our listenership is kind of one of the

3879
03:27:07,680 --> 03:27:10,760
Speaker 1: biggest touchstones for you recently, was you put out a

3880
03:27:10,840 --> 03:27:14,119
Speaker 1: video about the NFT craze that a lot of people

3881
03:27:14,160 --> 03:27:17,120
Speaker 1: have credited with helping to kill it, me among them.

3882
03:27:17,280 --> 03:27:19,680
Speaker 1: It's a wonderful, wonderful video. Line go up was the

3883
03:27:19,800 --> 03:27:24,200
Speaker 1: actual title line. Yeah, line goes up, very good breakdown

3884
03:27:24,280 --> 03:27:27,200
Speaker 1: of how they work, why it was a con And

3885
03:27:27,320 --> 03:27:29,320
Speaker 1: you've been doing you know, I think kind of the

3886
03:27:29,400 --> 03:27:31,720
Speaker 1: first really the first time I became aware of you

3887
03:27:31,879 --> 03:27:34,160
Speaker 1: was you did a Flat Earth documentary, which is is

3888
03:27:34,400 --> 03:27:34,840
Speaker 1: very good.

3889
03:27:36,120 --> 03:27:36,240
Speaker 5: You know.

3890
03:27:36,360 --> 03:27:39,200
Speaker 1: I did an article recently on like AI kids books

3891
03:27:39,200 --> 03:27:42,120
Speaker 1: that was partly inspired by an investigation you did into

3892
03:27:42,280 --> 03:27:46,360
Speaker 1: these kind of audible slash kindle grifters, the Mickelson Twins.

3893
03:27:47,440 --> 03:27:49,880
Speaker 1: So you do that kind of thing, right, like you Bay,

3894
03:27:50,480 --> 03:27:53,560
Speaker 1: You kind of run across things that are troubling or

3895
03:27:53,680 --> 03:27:57,040
Speaker 1: confusing to you, and then you investigate them to a

3896
03:27:57,080 --> 03:28:02,959
Speaker 1: pretty impressive extent and put together very clear, uh video investigations.

3897
03:28:03,040 --> 03:28:03,160
Speaker 5: You know.

3898
03:28:03,280 --> 03:28:06,440
Speaker 1: That's that's I think, in a nutshell, probably pretty accurate.

3899
03:28:07,000 --> 03:28:11,440
Speaker 10: Yeah, that's kind of where the where the channels ended up. Yeah,

3900
03:28:11,600 --> 03:28:14,040
Speaker 10: it's it's been a few different things over over the years,

3901
03:28:14,080 --> 03:28:16,200
Speaker 10: but that's kind of the phase that it's in right now.

3902
03:28:16,480 --> 03:28:20,680
Speaker 10: Is this kind of like I don't know, like yeah, documentarian.

3903
03:28:21,400 --> 03:28:21,720
Speaker 3: Place.

3904
03:28:22,400 --> 03:28:25,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know, a lot of your stuff seems

3905
03:28:25,600 --> 03:28:29,080
Speaker 1: to focus on basically like the topic of kind of

3906
03:28:29,360 --> 03:28:33,760
Speaker 1: online grifter culture and and sort of its intersection with

3907
03:28:33,959 --> 03:28:38,200
Speaker 1: like different weird cultic milieuse like there's kind of a

3908
03:28:38,520 --> 03:28:42,080
Speaker 1: cross especially like with NFT's a real big crossover betwixt

3909
03:28:42,200 --> 03:28:44,200
Speaker 1: the two, right, Like, it's kind of I think a

3910
03:28:44,280 --> 03:28:48,040
Speaker 1: lot of crypto culture was kind of this intersection between

3911
03:28:48,680 --> 03:28:54,440
Speaker 1: old school cons and kind of internet cult dynamics. So

3912
03:28:54,560 --> 03:29:00,800
Speaker 1: I wanted to talk today about the problem of scam

3913
03:29:00,920 --> 03:29:05,920
Speaker 1: culture in the United States because I, by any sort

3914
03:29:05,959 --> 03:29:09,879
Speaker 1: of like objective reckoning, I've been looking into this. There

3915
03:29:09,920 --> 03:29:14,080
Speaker 1: are more scams and more fraud than right now in

3916
03:29:14,160 --> 03:29:16,840
Speaker 1: the United States than at any point previously, and basically

3917
03:29:16,959 --> 03:29:20,119
Speaker 1: from all sides, like phone scams are at the highest

3918
03:29:20,200 --> 03:29:23,520
Speaker 1: rate they've ever been. People are getting like, like I

3919
03:29:23,600 --> 03:29:29,920
Speaker 1: think the statistic I've got is that in March twenty one,

3920
03:29:29,959 --> 03:29:31,400
Speaker 1: I think is kind of when that peaked at like

3921
03:29:31,480 --> 03:29:36,160
Speaker 1: four point nine billion robocall scams, which is like like

3922
03:29:36,640 --> 03:29:39,640
Speaker 1: just kind of an outrageous increase over where it was

3923
03:29:39,680 --> 03:29:42,560
Speaker 1: a few years ago. The rate of fraud against elderly

3924
03:29:42,680 --> 03:29:45,560
Speaker 1: people seems to be in an all time high, at

3925
03:29:45,640 --> 03:29:47,560
Speaker 1: least in terms of dollar amount. One of kind of

3926
03:29:47,600 --> 03:29:50,080
Speaker 1: the unsettling quotes that I came across when I was

3927
03:29:50,120 --> 03:29:53,800
Speaker 1: looking into the degree to which old people are being scammed,

3928
03:29:53,800 --> 03:29:57,760
Speaker 1: and it's often through various email scams that are kind

3929
03:29:57,760 --> 03:30:00,600
Speaker 1: of based on getting trust or fright them that like

3930
03:30:00,720 --> 03:30:02,600
Speaker 1: someone else is trying to scam them and so they

3931
03:30:02,680 --> 03:30:05,400
Speaker 1: need to give in from it. Anyway, the thing that

3932
03:30:05,600 --> 03:30:08,680
Speaker 1: the quote that I came across was a regulator talking

3933
03:30:08,680 --> 03:30:11,760
Speaker 1: about this and being like, yeah, it's not it's no

3934
03:30:11,920 --> 03:30:16,440
Speaker 1: longer like smaller even medium dollar cons. People are stealing

3935
03:30:16,560 --> 03:30:21,680
Speaker 1: generational wealth, which was really interesting to me. And then

3936
03:30:21,720 --> 03:30:25,640
Speaker 1: there's kind of like phishing attacks are at pretty close

3937
03:30:25,720 --> 03:30:27,600
Speaker 1: to an all time high. I mean, there's a I'll

3938
03:30:27,640 --> 03:30:29,640
Speaker 1: send you there's a graph that I came across in

3939
03:30:29,760 --> 03:30:33,480
Speaker 1: a what was the source on this? In a comparateech

3940
03:30:33,680 --> 03:30:36,560
Speaker 1: article that I mean, it's just a straight line up

3941
03:30:36,640 --> 03:30:39,240
Speaker 1: from January twenty twenty nine to like the end of

3942
03:30:39,320 --> 03:30:44,240
Speaker 1: twenty twenty two. And so I'm I'm I'm kind of

3943
03:30:44,360 --> 03:30:47,400
Speaker 1: looking at all this, and there's a couple of different causes, right,

3944
03:30:47,520 --> 03:30:49,800
Speaker 1: Like some of the stuff the SEC did under ajit

3945
03:30:49,879 --> 03:30:52,960
Speaker 1: PI gets blamed for why it's gotten even worse with

3946
03:30:53,240 --> 03:30:56,840
Speaker 1: with phone scams, although that's not the whole story. AI

3947
03:30:57,040 --> 03:30:59,680
Speaker 1: powered tools have been a big part of like why

3948
03:30:59,760 --> 03:31:02,920
Speaker 1: f attacks have increased so much. But then like you've

3949
03:31:02,959 --> 03:31:05,760
Speaker 1: got like the degree to which the elderly are being conned,

3950
03:31:05,800 --> 03:31:08,280
Speaker 1: which is like this kind of at this intersection of

3951
03:31:08,320 --> 03:31:11,520
Speaker 1: a few different things. How much more online old people

3952
03:31:11,600 --> 03:31:13,600
Speaker 1: are today than they were, you know, ten to fifteen

3953
03:31:13,640 --> 03:31:14,039
Speaker 1: years ago.

3954
03:31:14,120 --> 03:31:17,920
Speaker 3: For population bubbles, yes, you know, multi valent dynamics.

3955
03:31:18,240 --> 03:31:22,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, but kind of the commonality is that like scams

3956
03:31:22,520 --> 03:31:25,040
Speaker 1: are all around, like people, we're all kind of being

3957
03:31:25,080 --> 03:31:26,760
Speaker 1: assaulted by scams.

3958
03:31:27,440 --> 03:31:30,040
Speaker 10: I mean the time I just I just grabbed my

3959
03:31:30,240 --> 03:31:34,320
Speaker 10: phone and like of my last like fifteen text messages.

3960
03:31:34,480 --> 03:31:37,600
Speaker 3: Maybe uh it's like.

3961
03:31:39,480 --> 03:31:42,960
Speaker 10: Your pickup is available a couple like three with you know,

3962
03:31:43,080 --> 03:31:47,680
Speaker 10: four with actual friends, and then uh interact you just

3963
03:31:47,840 --> 03:31:50,960
Speaker 10: received an e Interact transfer high long time no talk.

3964
03:31:51,080 --> 03:31:54,200
Speaker 10: Just got your money, Okay, we'll send soon. Three hundred

3965
03:31:54,240 --> 03:31:56,600
Speaker 10: and eighty nine can now be routed to your institutions.

3966
03:31:56,640 --> 03:32:00,360
Speaker 10: Submit why the Canada Revenue Agency has sent you money?

3967
03:32:01,000 --> 03:32:04,800
Speaker 10: Your verification code for visa transfer is. And it's like

3968
03:32:05,680 --> 03:32:11,160
Speaker 10: it's like just constant, constant. I hadn't even because like,

3969
03:32:11,240 --> 03:32:13,240
Speaker 10: I'm not going to be shocked at all if I

3970
03:32:13,360 --> 03:32:16,959
Speaker 10: get a phishing text message during this conversation.

3971
03:32:17,080 --> 03:32:21,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, like between my email and like my text messages

3972
03:32:21,879 --> 03:32:24,560
Speaker 1: or just phone calls, right, I get every day I

3973
03:32:24,680 --> 03:32:28,200
Speaker 1: get two or three calls from scam likely, you know, Yeah,

3974
03:32:28,480 --> 03:32:31,760
Speaker 1: my good friend scam Likely. Yeah, my old buddy, he's

3975
03:32:31,760 --> 03:32:36,160
Speaker 1: always got always got something cooking. But yeah, it's and

3976
03:32:36,240 --> 03:32:39,400
Speaker 1: I this kind of like I started focusing on this

3977
03:32:39,560 --> 03:32:42,520
Speaker 1: more a couple of months ago because you know, I

3978
03:32:42,640 --> 03:32:46,040
Speaker 1: had vaguely noticed. Boy, it's just like nothing but fucking

3979
03:32:46,120 --> 03:32:49,920
Speaker 1: scams coming into me through my phone these days. And

3980
03:32:50,040 --> 03:32:52,000
Speaker 1: then a couple of months ago, I got a phone

3981
03:32:52,080 --> 03:32:53,920
Speaker 1: call from my bank and it was one of those

3982
03:32:54,000 --> 03:32:56,160
Speaker 1: things like everyone else my cell phone lets me know

3983
03:32:56,720 --> 03:32:59,640
Speaker 1: when like a call is from scam likely or when

3984
03:32:59,640 --> 03:33:01,320
Speaker 1: it's from like you know, and it had the name

3985
03:33:01,400 --> 03:33:03,480
Speaker 1: of my bank on there. It was the right number,

3986
03:33:03,600 --> 03:33:06,760
Speaker 1: you know, So I pick it up and a human being.

3987
03:33:06,720 --> 03:33:08,280
Speaker 9: Is on the line and they're like, is this you know,

3988
03:33:08,440 --> 03:33:10,280
Speaker 9: Robert Evans And I'm like yeah, And then they're like,

3989
03:33:10,720 --> 03:33:14,440
Speaker 9: we've seen some like fraudulent activity on your account.

3990
03:33:14,480 --> 03:33:16,400
Speaker 1: Can we ask you a couple questions? And that is

3991
03:33:16,760 --> 03:33:19,680
Speaker 1: I've gotten that call before. Legitimately, you know, it's not

3992
03:33:19,760 --> 03:33:21,760
Speaker 1: a weird thing for your bank to be like, hey,

3993
03:33:22,000 --> 03:33:23,240
Speaker 1: let's talk about these us.

3994
03:33:23,400 --> 03:33:25,320
Speaker 10: Are you in the country right now? It's like no,

3995
03:33:25,520 --> 03:33:27,720
Speaker 10: I'm I'm in New York. It's like, okay, so we're

3996
03:33:27,760 --> 03:33:29,280
Speaker 10: seeing activity out in New York.

3997
03:33:29,320 --> 03:33:29,600
Speaker 5: That's you.

3998
03:33:29,959 --> 03:33:32,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, did you just buy something in Florida? No, I

3999
03:33:32,480 --> 03:33:36,720
Speaker 1: never go to Florida, but uh so yeah so And

4000
03:33:36,840 --> 03:33:39,640
Speaker 1: I didn't actually get to see where they were going

4001
03:33:39,800 --> 03:33:42,440
Speaker 1: with this. Nothing suspicious had happened. But like after they

4002
03:33:42,520 --> 03:33:45,320
Speaker 1: say that, I'm like okay, yeah, like what's what's the charge?

4003
03:33:45,640 --> 03:33:48,200
Speaker 1: And then my phone disconnects right like it's you know again,

4004
03:33:48,360 --> 03:33:50,960
Speaker 1: my where I live, you know, Oregon is the middle

4005
03:33:50,959 --> 03:33:54,680
Speaker 1: of nowhere, so like sometimes connectivity is not great. So

4006
03:33:54,800 --> 03:33:57,040
Speaker 1: I call them back, you know, and I get on

4007
03:33:57,120 --> 03:33:59,600
Speaker 1: the phone with a person and they're like, yeah, what's

4008
03:33:59,640 --> 03:34:00,920
Speaker 1: what's in to be up? And I'm like, well, you

4009
03:34:00,959 --> 03:34:02,880
Speaker 1: guys called me saying that like that there was some

4010
03:34:03,400 --> 03:34:06,120
Speaker 1: possibly fraudulent activity that we needed to talk about. And

4011
03:34:06,640 --> 03:34:08,480
Speaker 1: the lady on the other end is like, no one

4012
03:34:08,560 --> 03:34:10,960
Speaker 1: here called you. Like I'm looking at your record. I

4013
03:34:11,000 --> 03:34:13,000
Speaker 1: can tell when someone's getting a call. We don't have

4014
03:34:13,040 --> 03:34:15,040
Speaker 1: any record of that. And I explained what happened, and

4015
03:34:15,160 --> 03:34:18,880
Speaker 1: she like goes back, talks to a supervisor and is like,

4016
03:34:19,320 --> 03:34:22,320
Speaker 1: so that was a scam. They've this is something we've

4017
03:34:22,360 --> 03:34:24,680
Speaker 1: seen more and more lately. They've they're able now to

4018
03:34:24,840 --> 03:34:28,680
Speaker 1: actually just spoof our banks and this is my bank

4019
03:34:28,800 --> 03:34:32,400
Speaker 1: is a significant sized institution. They're able to spoof our

4020
03:34:32,640 --> 03:34:36,000
Speaker 1: phone number now and so you can't tell through the

4021
03:34:36,040 --> 03:34:38,240
Speaker 1: caller ID, and like it was this whole thing where

4022
03:34:38,320 --> 03:34:41,480
Speaker 1: like obviously I know, don't give certain things over the phone,

4023
03:34:41,520 --> 03:34:43,360
Speaker 1: even if they're pretending to be your bank. We never

4024
03:34:43,440 --> 03:34:46,360
Speaker 1: got to that point where anything was actually compromised, but

4025
03:34:46,480 --> 03:34:49,800
Speaker 1: it was just like, well, shit, like what are you Like?

4026
03:34:50,200 --> 03:34:52,320
Speaker 1: That's this is now well beyond a thing where like

4027
03:34:52,440 --> 03:34:55,400
Speaker 1: you're getting called and someone's offering you, you know, to

4028
03:34:55,560 --> 03:34:58,000
Speaker 1: make a bunch of money. You know, holding a Nigerian

4029
03:34:58,080 --> 03:35:00,520
Speaker 1: princess wealth or something. If you sit in your account,

4030
03:35:00,600 --> 03:35:03,720
Speaker 1: this is your bank calls you and your phone tells

4031
03:35:03,760 --> 03:35:06,119
Speaker 1: you that it's your bank, and a human being who

4032
03:35:06,240 --> 03:35:10,080
Speaker 1: sounds just like the bank teller like it's it's gotten

4033
03:35:10,320 --> 03:35:14,040
Speaker 1: so and I think kind of the broad Obviously, each

4034
03:35:14,080 --> 03:35:17,960
Speaker 1: of these individual vectors by which scamming has increased is

4035
03:35:18,240 --> 03:35:20,800
Speaker 1: a worthy story and a separate story in a lot

4036
03:35:20,840 --> 03:35:24,120
Speaker 1: of ways, but they also come together in this like, well,

4037
03:35:24,680 --> 03:35:27,440
Speaker 1: you know, it's not it's not like weird at this

4038
03:35:27,520 --> 03:35:31,440
Speaker 1: point to note that everybody seems angrier, and everybody seems paranoid,

4039
03:35:31,560 --> 03:35:34,880
Speaker 1: and you hear more stories about like people opening fire

4040
03:35:35,000 --> 03:35:38,040
Speaker 1: on folks pulling into their driveway to turn around, and

4041
03:35:38,800 --> 03:35:41,840
Speaker 1: there's you know that story. Obviously there's guns and stuff

4042
03:35:41,879 --> 03:35:43,920
Speaker 1: that's also connected to that. But I wonder how much

4043
03:35:44,520 --> 03:35:49,560
Speaker 1: of the paranoia and anger is at least exacerbated by

4044
03:35:49,600 --> 03:35:52,480
Speaker 1: the fact that everyone is fighting off a million scammers

4045
03:35:52,480 --> 03:35:53,080
Speaker 1: at all times.

4046
03:35:54,320 --> 03:35:56,680
Speaker 10: Yeah, I think that's a good observation, like that, just

4047
03:35:56,800 --> 03:36:03,119
Speaker 10: we're seeing this erosion of public trust in in reality.

4048
03:36:03,760 --> 03:36:07,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, And and some of that is like.

4049
03:36:07,560 --> 03:36:11,600
Speaker 10: Deliberate and political, uh, And a lot of it is

4050
03:36:11,840 --> 03:36:16,040
Speaker 10: just coming from like the fact that technology has enabled

4051
03:36:16,320 --> 03:36:22,800
Speaker 10: spam in in unprecedented new vectors and the fact that

4052
03:36:22,920 --> 03:36:27,160
Speaker 10: you can like that you can automate bombarding people with.

4053
03:36:29,320 --> 03:36:34,560
Speaker 3: Noise. Uh is is just kind of it's eaten away

4054
03:36:34,600 --> 03:36:35,280
Speaker 3: at all of us.

4055
03:36:37,040 --> 03:36:39,879
Speaker 10: Because it's like, how do I how do I trust anything?

4056
03:36:39,920 --> 03:36:41,440
Speaker 10: I mean so like and this is the thing is

4057
03:36:41,760 --> 03:36:44,400
Speaker 10: it's like, Okay, so I've been I've been keyed into

4058
03:36:44,480 --> 03:36:47,040
Speaker 10: this and thus paranoid for like a decade now. So

4059
03:36:47,160 --> 03:36:49,520
Speaker 10: if I get a message that's like, you know, like

4060
03:36:49,640 --> 03:36:53,600
Speaker 10: that from my bank, if it comes in text, then

4061
03:36:53,640 --> 03:36:56,360
Speaker 10: it's like I don't interact with the original thing that

4062
03:36:56,520 --> 03:36:59,680
Speaker 10: it came from. I then go like on the website.

4063
03:36:59,680 --> 03:37:02,320
Speaker 10: It's like all right, I like call my bank to

4064
03:37:03,000 --> 03:37:06,320
Speaker 10: to to inquire about it. Like never you know, it's

4065
03:37:06,360 --> 03:37:09,960
Speaker 10: like never communicate through the channel that you're first contacted in. Yeah,

4066
03:37:10,080 --> 03:37:12,400
Speaker 10: if you're if you're dealing with your bank, And it's

4067
03:37:12,480 --> 03:37:14,880
Speaker 10: like and it's like, but is that level of paranoia healthy?

4068
03:37:14,959 --> 03:37:17,199
Speaker 3: And it's like that takes that also takes effort.

4069
03:37:17,320 --> 03:37:19,400
Speaker 10: That means you have to have the foresight to be like,

4070
03:37:19,879 --> 03:37:24,360
Speaker 10: do not panic see the thing process it consciously go

4071
03:37:24,600 --> 03:37:29,800
Speaker 10: somewhere else, and like, you know, activate a different channel.

4072
03:37:29,879 --> 03:37:32,240
Speaker 10: You know, if they contact you through text, you know,

4073
03:37:32,400 --> 03:37:36,480
Speaker 10: go through like email or or like live chat. If

4074
03:37:36,520 --> 03:37:39,480
Speaker 10: they contact you through email, call them on the phone,

4075
03:37:39,879 --> 03:37:41,879
Speaker 10: not with the phone number that was at the bottom

4076
03:37:41,879 --> 03:37:43,240
Speaker 10: of the email, go to the website.

4077
03:37:43,240 --> 03:37:45,200
Speaker 3: And it's like, that's effort, that's effort.

4078
03:37:45,520 --> 03:37:48,879
Speaker 10: I don't even have that much energy in me sometime,

4079
03:37:48,920 --> 03:37:51,360
Speaker 10: and a lot of other people just like absolutely don't.

4080
03:37:51,879 --> 03:37:57,560
Speaker 10: And and that leads to like just exhaustion, vulnerability, you know,

4081
03:37:57,760 --> 03:38:02,199
Speaker 10: all of the things that feed into like paranoia, distrust,

4082
03:38:02,480 --> 03:38:04,520
Speaker 10: et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And it's

4083
03:38:04,800 --> 03:38:09,000
Speaker 10: it's relentless. Like online advertising is basically useless at this point.

4084
03:38:09,040 --> 03:38:13,800
Speaker 10: Oh yeah, because like if you ran, if you ran

4085
03:38:13,840 --> 03:38:17,520
Speaker 10: a legitimate ad, you know, unless you have the money

4086
03:38:17,680 --> 03:38:24,280
Speaker 10: to run like a real proper you know, basically TV commercial. Yeah,

4087
03:38:26,200 --> 03:38:30,360
Speaker 10: like banner ads. I haven't I've seen like I don't

4088
03:38:30,440 --> 03:38:33,879
Speaker 10: know one legitimate banner ad for like a car company

4089
03:38:34,360 --> 03:38:37,879
Speaker 10: in the last year. Everything else is like a hearing

4090
03:38:37,959 --> 03:38:42,039
Speaker 10: aid scam or you know, liquefy your belly fat using

4091
03:38:42,240 --> 03:38:42,959
Speaker 10: the metaverse.

4092
03:38:44,120 --> 03:38:48,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's it's this constant, like number one. It's

4093
03:38:48,360 --> 03:38:50,880
Speaker 1: led me to the situation where when I see an

4094
03:38:50,879 --> 03:38:53,520
Speaker 1: ad on social media in particular, but with any sort

4095
03:38:53,520 --> 03:38:56,959
Speaker 1: of like print in online ad, my assumption is it's

4096
03:38:57,040 --> 03:38:59,640
Speaker 1: probably a con right. Yeah, even if it's like oh wow,

4097
03:38:59,720 --> 03:39:02,240
Speaker 1: that's looks nice, well, that company is probably not gonna

4098
03:39:02,240 --> 03:39:04,360
Speaker 1: ship me that shirt right like, or it won't be

4099
03:39:04,520 --> 03:39:06,080
Speaker 1: right like, yeah, it'll.

4100
03:39:05,879 --> 03:39:08,760
Speaker 3: Be that photo is absolutely not from the company that

4101
03:39:08,879 --> 03:39:09,640
Speaker 3: is running this ad.

4102
03:39:09,720 --> 03:39:09,920
Speaker 7: Yeah.

4103
03:39:09,920 --> 03:39:13,320
Speaker 10: You just you assume you distrust as a as a

4104
03:39:13,400 --> 03:39:15,760
Speaker 10: first measure. You see, you see a banner ad, you

4105
03:39:15,840 --> 03:39:19,800
Speaker 10: see the aesthetics of advertising, and the assumption is that

4106
03:39:19,879 --> 03:39:23,440
Speaker 10: it's like, ah, that's gonna you know, that's gonna get

4107
03:39:23,520 --> 03:39:26,080
Speaker 10: me to sign up for some subscription that's going to

4108
03:39:26,120 --> 03:39:29,640
Speaker 10: be buried in like recurring payments that yeah, I will

4109
03:39:29,720 --> 03:39:30,720
Speaker 10: never be able to cancel.

4110
03:39:31,160 --> 03:39:34,680
Speaker 9: And it's it's interesting because I, I mean, I'm not

4111
03:39:34,720 --> 03:39:36,880
Speaker 9: sure if this has been your experience, but like I

4112
03:39:37,240 --> 03:39:40,440
Speaker 9: can acknowledge I think I morally have to acknowledge like

4113
03:39:40,640 --> 03:39:45,040
Speaker 9: part of my success financially as a creator has been

4114
03:39:45,080 --> 03:39:46,040
Speaker 9: as a result of that.

4115
03:39:46,400 --> 03:39:48,520
Speaker 1: Because one of the things that we've seen in the

4116
03:39:48,760 --> 03:39:52,400
Speaker 1: the ad market is that text ads ads for print

4117
03:39:52,480 --> 03:39:54,920
Speaker 1: and shit do not work, do not function in any way,

4118
03:39:54,959 --> 03:39:58,280
Speaker 1: shape or form, and a lot of like random inner

4119
03:39:58,360 --> 03:40:01,840
Speaker 1: citt ads don't work well, but creator ads work well,

4120
03:40:02,080 --> 03:40:05,080
Speaker 1: and so there's money in it, right because people listen

4121
03:40:05,240 --> 03:40:07,600
Speaker 1: to like people have a degree of like, Okay, well

4122
03:40:07,640 --> 03:40:10,520
Speaker 1: this is like number one. It's just like the process

4123
03:40:10,560 --> 03:40:13,360
Speaker 1: of consuming a YouTube video or a podcast is different

4124
03:40:13,400 --> 03:40:16,520
Speaker 1: from an article. But like the ads work better because

4125
03:40:16,560 --> 03:40:19,160
Speaker 1: it doesn't feel the same as like the scrum of

4126
03:40:19,240 --> 03:40:21,800
Speaker 1: shit that like is getting pushed into every conversation you

4127
03:40:21,959 --> 03:40:22,600
Speaker 1: have on Twitter.

4128
03:40:23,920 --> 03:40:26,680
Speaker 10: A human that I can confirm existence has at least

4129
03:40:26,760 --> 03:40:30,200
Speaker 10: taken a look at this, like this is not at

4130
03:40:30,280 --> 03:40:33,800
Speaker 10: least like not a complete con or whatever, right, yeah,

4131
03:40:34,959 --> 03:40:38,040
Speaker 10: or if it is, then like then the host has

4132
03:40:38,160 --> 03:40:42,160
Speaker 10: also has also been kind of like by whatever, Like it.

4133
03:40:42,240 --> 03:40:44,520
Speaker 3: Ends up, yeah, we're in this together. Like it ends

4134
03:40:44,600 --> 03:40:47,160
Speaker 3: up being at least like a little.

4135
03:40:47,000 --> 03:40:51,480
Speaker 10: Bit sort of sort of distant distanced from that, you know,

4136
03:40:51,720 --> 03:40:56,360
Speaker 10: like the freakin' you know, by by a square foot

4137
03:40:56,360 --> 03:40:59,080
Speaker 10: of land in Scotland and become a lord and that

4138
03:40:59,160 --> 03:41:03,720
Speaker 10: whole thing is like a scam being run out of China. Yeah, yeah,

4139
03:41:04,040 --> 03:41:05,600
Speaker 10: I mean one of the one of the kind of

4140
03:41:05,640 --> 03:41:07,720
Speaker 10: like weird ironies. For me is it's like, okay, so

4141
03:41:07,840 --> 03:41:12,080
Speaker 10: line goes up, came out, Well, the crypto ecosystem was

4142
03:41:12,200 --> 03:41:14,920
Speaker 10: in its like biggest ad blitz ever. You know, they

4143
03:41:14,959 --> 03:41:17,520
Speaker 10: had the Super Bowl ads coming up just like a

4144
03:41:17,600 --> 03:41:21,320
Speaker 10: month later actually like weeks like weeks afterwards, and so

4145
03:41:23,280 --> 03:41:25,800
Speaker 10: you know, like the vast majority of the like uh

4146
03:41:26,800 --> 03:41:31,800
Speaker 10: mideral ads that ran on that video were crypto dot Com,

4147
03:41:32,200 --> 03:41:38,320
Speaker 10: were ftx, were binance, and and the ad rates that

4148
03:41:38,480 --> 03:41:41,560
Speaker 10: they were paying, like the CPM that they were paying

4149
03:41:41,680 --> 03:41:48,600
Speaker 10: to run on crypto relevant videos was insane. Yeah, it

4150
03:41:48,800 --> 03:41:51,920
Speaker 10: was like it was like twenty eleven all over again.

4151
03:41:52,560 --> 03:41:55,360
Speaker 1: Twenty eleven was the only good time to be in

4152
03:41:55,480 --> 03:42:01,680
Speaker 1: digital content creation. There's like a lot that's unsettling about that.

4153
03:42:01,720 --> 03:42:03,480
Speaker 1: I think one of the things that is like most

4154
03:42:03,520 --> 03:42:05,880
Speaker 1: frustrated to me is the degree to which it's meant

4155
03:42:05,959 --> 03:42:10,400
Speaker 1: that we've we've gone backwards. Like there was this people

4156
03:42:10,440 --> 03:42:14,760
Speaker 1: who like study tech and kind of the way socialization

4157
03:42:15,080 --> 03:42:17,560
Speaker 1: around big tech works talk about this thing called the

4158
03:42:17,640 --> 03:42:20,000
Speaker 1: trow of disappointment, right, which is when you get a

4159
03:42:20,040 --> 03:42:23,000
Speaker 1: new technology, everybody we're in like the hype phase for

4160
03:42:23,080 --> 03:42:25,640
Speaker 1: like AI right now, right yeah, and then at a

4161
03:42:25,760 --> 03:42:28,720
Speaker 1: certain point it becomes clear which aspects of the hype

4162
03:42:28,760 --> 03:42:30,879
Speaker 1: were right, you know, the degree to which the technology

4163
03:42:30,959 --> 03:42:33,480
Speaker 1: is capable of doing things that kind of the evangelists

4164
03:42:33,520 --> 03:42:35,959
Speaker 1: were claiming, and to which extent the hype was wrong

4165
03:42:36,200 --> 03:42:38,960
Speaker 1: right in what areas is the tech always going to

4166
03:42:39,000 --> 03:42:42,800
Speaker 1: fall short? And that's called like the trow of disappointment

4167
03:42:42,840 --> 03:42:45,000
Speaker 1: when people start to reel and then you know things

4168
03:42:45,120 --> 03:42:47,920
Speaker 1: kind of are supposed to level after that's dot com

4169
03:42:48,160 --> 03:42:52,039
Speaker 1: is not in fact magic, Yeah, exactly exactly. You can't

4170
03:42:52,080 --> 03:42:55,200
Speaker 1: just keep shoveling money into this shit forever and in

4171
03:42:55,800 --> 03:42:59,480
Speaker 1: the hopes of exponential returns, or as a consumer, like

4172
03:42:59,600 --> 03:43:02,120
Speaker 1: at a point, I can remember the time when phones

4173
03:43:02,160 --> 03:43:05,040
Speaker 1: were exciting and I was, as especially as a journalist,

4174
03:43:05,160 --> 03:43:07,600
Speaker 1: like really interested every new year at like what new

4175
03:43:07,680 --> 03:43:10,280
Speaker 1: things they're capable of. And then after a couple of

4176
03:43:10,400 --> 03:43:12,880
Speaker 1: years it was like, well, every phone is like there's

4177
03:43:12,920 --> 03:43:15,480
Speaker 1: no difference. Now there's no excitement in getting a new phone.

4178
03:43:15,520 --> 03:43:17,760
Speaker 1: It's just like, well this my old phone is broken,

4179
03:43:17,840 --> 03:43:19,480
Speaker 1: so I need a new phone. But like I'm not

4180
03:43:19,600 --> 03:43:24,200
Speaker 1: like Wow, the new capabilities of this device, but I

4181
03:43:24,360 --> 03:43:26,520
Speaker 1: feel like there's another I don't even I don't really

4182
03:43:26,560 --> 03:43:28,360
Speaker 1: know what to call it, but there's also this kind

4183
03:43:28,360 --> 03:43:32,800
Speaker 1: of thing where we the Internet helps to create, or

4184
03:43:32,920 --> 03:43:35,840
Speaker 1: is the method through which is disseminated a new labor

4185
03:43:35,920 --> 03:43:39,560
Speaker 1: saving device, and then the scams reach such a density

4186
03:43:39,760 --> 03:43:42,680
Speaker 1: that the amount of labor you're able to save is minimal, right,

4187
03:43:44,320 --> 03:43:48,520
Speaker 1: Like that's that's I feel like there's like a that's

4188
03:43:48,640 --> 03:43:51,000
Speaker 1: at least one of the things that I've noticed, especially

4189
03:43:51,120 --> 03:43:54,200
Speaker 1: with like digital communication, with just communication in general. Right,

4190
03:43:54,640 --> 03:43:57,160
Speaker 1: my smartphone made it easier to stay in touch all

4191
03:43:57,240 --> 03:44:01,840
Speaker 1: the time, and now my smartphone it obviously I still

4192
03:44:01,920 --> 03:44:04,720
Speaker 1: carry the damn thing everywhere, but like my text messages

4193
03:44:04,760 --> 03:44:07,280
Speaker 1: are mostly scams, and my emails are mostly scams, and

4194
03:44:07,320 --> 03:44:09,040
Speaker 1: most of the calls that I get are scams.

4195
03:44:09,200 --> 03:44:13,200
Speaker 10: Like yeah, yeah, I've actually been finding myself drifting back

4196
03:44:13,240 --> 03:44:16,080
Speaker 10: towards email as a communication medium just because the spam

4197
03:44:16,160 --> 03:44:21,520
Speaker 10: filters are better, you know, mature and sophisticated and for

4198
03:44:21,640 --> 03:44:24,280
Speaker 10: the most part they work. Yeah, like they're yeah, it's

4199
03:44:24,320 --> 03:44:27,240
Speaker 10: like I can actually people can actually reach me by email.

4200
03:44:28,160 --> 03:44:29,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's pretty cool.

4201
03:44:31,680 --> 03:44:35,240
Speaker 10: And you know, like there's there's a whole tech like

4202
03:44:35,480 --> 03:44:36,960
Speaker 10: really kind of the big thing is there's this whole

4203
03:44:36,959 --> 03:44:40,240
Speaker 10: technological element to it. And you know when you when

4204
03:44:40,280 --> 03:44:42,760
Speaker 10: you sort of pitched the idea of this conversation with

4205
03:44:42,840 --> 03:44:45,920
Speaker 10: the first two places, my brain went to where John

4206
03:44:46,000 --> 03:44:50,520
Speaker 10: Romulus Brinkley, the goat testicle doctor, yes, yes, yes, and

4207
03:44:51,360 --> 03:44:59,840
Speaker 10: pioneer of new media radio, and of course and Marshall mccluan, Yeah,

4208
03:45:00,000 --> 03:45:01,760
Speaker 10: you know, like those those were the those were the

4209
03:45:01,800 --> 03:45:04,280
Speaker 10: two things that my brain immediately was like, this is

4210
03:45:04,480 --> 03:45:06,360
Speaker 10: this is sort of like relevant to it, because like

4211
03:45:06,840 --> 03:45:10,000
Speaker 10: Brinkley was, he was a pioneer of radio.

4212
03:45:10,280 --> 03:45:13,360
Speaker 3: He he absolutely.

4213
03:45:14,440 --> 03:45:17,640
Speaker 10: Advanced sort of the format of like what radio could

4214
03:45:17,680 --> 03:45:21,280
Speaker 10: be and how you could use radio to not just

4215
03:45:21,520 --> 03:45:25,720
Speaker 10: extract money from people, but get them onto your side

4216
03:45:26,080 --> 03:45:29,560
Speaker 10: such that after they have given you their money, like

4217
03:45:29,760 --> 03:45:33,520
Speaker 10: they're they're not just they're not just your your victims,

4218
03:45:33,640 --> 03:45:36,520
Speaker 10: You're you're not just rolling into town and selling them

4219
03:45:36,600 --> 03:45:40,160
Speaker 10: some some snake oil and then like skid daddling as

4220
03:45:40,240 --> 03:45:44,360
Speaker 10: fast as possible, you have made them into your fans,

4221
03:45:44,879 --> 03:45:48,080
Speaker 10: into your followers. And you know the way that he

4222
03:45:48,200 --> 03:45:51,280
Speaker 10: did that by connecting his scam to like a sense

4223
03:45:51,320 --> 03:45:54,959
Speaker 10: of identity. You know that he wasn't just this fake doctor.

4224
03:45:55,040 --> 03:45:57,439
Speaker 10: He was also effectively a pastor.

4225
03:45:57,840 --> 03:46:01,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, people who had defend it after there was

4226
03:46:01,280 --> 03:46:05,200
Speaker 1: no longer any chance of them, like after it had

4227
03:46:05,240 --> 03:46:07,880
Speaker 1: been sort of proven that the thing that he was

4228
03:46:07,959 --> 03:46:11,520
Speaker 1: promising was not real, right like once there was no more.

4229
03:46:11,959 --> 03:46:14,039
Speaker 1: It's almost like you know that play The Music Man,

4230
03:46:14,520 --> 03:46:16,880
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, if you if you at home or not,

4231
03:46:17,160 --> 03:46:18,880
Speaker 1: Like I'm not a huge musical theater guy, that's a

4232
03:46:18,920 --> 03:46:20,840
Speaker 1: pretty famous play. But like the basic idea is this

4233
03:46:20,959 --> 03:46:24,119
Speaker 1: guy tells everyone come, this con man comes to town,

4234
03:46:24,200 --> 03:46:26,400
Speaker 1: tells everyone he's gonna make like a big band and

4235
03:46:26,520 --> 03:46:28,480
Speaker 1: raises money for it, and his plan is to like

4236
03:46:28,920 --> 03:46:30,840
Speaker 1: take the money and run. It's kind of what the

4237
03:46:30,920 --> 03:46:33,240
Speaker 1: Monoail Sketch and The Simpsons is based on to a

4238
03:46:33,280 --> 03:46:38,040
Speaker 1: significant extent. And if I'm remembering correctly, I shouldn't have

4239
03:46:38,240 --> 03:46:40,320
Speaker 1: brought this up, maybe because I'm actually not that knowledgeable

4240
03:46:40,360 --> 03:46:42,560
Speaker 1: about musical theater. But my recollection of the way it

4241
03:46:42,680 --> 03:46:45,119
Speaker 1: goes is that like he falls in lover some shit

4242
03:46:45,200 --> 03:46:47,720
Speaker 1: and feels bad, and you know, they wind up he

4243
03:46:47,959 --> 03:46:50,280
Speaker 1: winds up becoming not a con man, but like I

4244
03:46:50,680 --> 03:46:53,240
Speaker 1: think the modern version of that is he just he

4245
03:46:53,360 --> 03:46:56,160
Speaker 1: gets people to like adopt as a religion. The idea

4246
03:46:56,240 --> 03:46:59,400
Speaker 1: that these fucking trombones and uniforms and tubes and shit

4247
03:46:59,440 --> 03:47:02,240
Speaker 1: are on the way. He and like, you know, then

4248
03:47:02,280 --> 03:47:06,520
Speaker 1: they attack the local newspaper and string a journalist up

4249
03:47:06,520 --> 03:47:08,320
Speaker 1: in the center of town for telling them that there

4250
03:47:09,080 --> 03:47:13,280
Speaker 1: were ten years into this city, hasn't started a bay anyway, whatever, Yeah, yeah,

4251
03:47:13,280 --> 03:47:14,080
Speaker 1: and so so.

4252
03:47:14,200 --> 03:47:18,720
Speaker 10: The other mccluan, you know, his famous postulate, the medium

4253
03:47:18,840 --> 03:47:22,400
Speaker 10: is the message, which remains a radical observation to this day,

4254
03:47:23,120 --> 03:47:27,879
Speaker 10: is just that it's this assertion that the medium itself

4255
03:47:28,320 --> 03:47:30,920
Speaker 10: is more important than any given message on it, or

4256
03:47:31,040 --> 03:47:36,600
Speaker 10: even the like the the combined weight of the individual messages. Now,

4257
03:47:37,959 --> 03:47:40,160
Speaker 10: I think in some regards mccluan kind of went like

4258
03:47:41,160 --> 03:47:43,640
Speaker 10: overboard with that because he said that it's like content

4259
03:47:43,760 --> 03:47:45,959
Speaker 10: doesn't matter at all, and it's like, ah, I think

4260
03:47:46,120 --> 03:47:49,480
Speaker 10: content matters. But the point still stands that like the

4261
03:47:49,640 --> 03:47:53,080
Speaker 10: medium itself, the like the invention of radio, the invention

4262
03:47:53,240 --> 03:47:56,720
Speaker 10: of television, the invention of the Internet, the invention of

4263
03:47:56,800 --> 03:48:00,840
Speaker 10: social media had a bigger, like has had a bigger

4264
03:48:00,920 --> 03:48:03,880
Speaker 10: impact than any given thing on it, because that's the

4265
03:48:04,040 --> 03:48:08,440
Speaker 10: thing that ultimately we warp our lives around, that we

4266
03:48:08,640 --> 03:48:13,200
Speaker 10: restructure our homes around, we restructure our physical environment around

4267
03:48:13,560 --> 03:48:17,840
Speaker 10: we restructure how we spend our days like that our

4268
03:48:18,000 --> 03:48:23,360
Speaker 10: time usage gets warped around the medium itself, and thus

4269
03:48:23,840 --> 03:48:26,840
Speaker 10: the medium becomes the portal for information to travel through.

4270
03:48:27,800 --> 03:48:30,800
Speaker 1: Absolutely and it also I mean, I think there's an

4271
03:48:30,840 --> 03:48:33,880
Speaker 1: extent to which that is true of kind of the

4272
03:48:33,959 --> 03:48:38,640
Speaker 1: way parasocial dynamics impact things like political belief. I think

4273
03:48:38,680 --> 03:48:40,600
Speaker 1: there are a lot of people, and I think there

4274
03:48:40,640 --> 03:48:42,640
Speaker 1: are a lot of things that people a lot of,

4275
03:48:42,720 --> 03:48:46,000
Speaker 1: especially when it comes to like radical politics, that people

4276
03:48:46,080 --> 03:48:50,800
Speaker 1: adopt because somebody who they had come to already like

4277
03:48:51,160 --> 03:48:54,280
Speaker 1: expresses those politics, right, and so something that maybe never

4278
03:48:54,320 --> 03:48:57,640
Speaker 1: would have gotten any purchase with them suddenly is able

4279
03:48:57,680 --> 03:48:59,880
Speaker 1: to get purchase with them because like a dude that

4280
03:49:00,080 --> 03:49:03,879
Speaker 1: they or a lady that they had a parasocial relationship

4281
03:49:04,080 --> 03:49:06,720
Speaker 1: express this kind of stuff. And it just it's not

4282
03:49:06,840 --> 03:49:08,880
Speaker 1: that it like hacks their brain. It's not that like

4283
03:49:09,080 --> 03:49:14,680
Speaker 1: people are you know, little robots. It's that, uh, this

4284
03:49:14,880 --> 03:49:17,000
Speaker 1: is kind of the way influence works. It's the same

4285
03:49:17,080 --> 03:49:21,040
Speaker 1: reason why like your you like, people often wind up

4286
03:49:21,080 --> 03:49:24,120
Speaker 1: believing similar things to their parents, or similar things to

4287
03:49:24,160 --> 03:49:27,440
Speaker 1: their friends group. You know, if your friends are all saying,

4288
03:49:27,600 --> 03:49:29,920
Speaker 1: like you know, on the positive end of things. If

4289
03:49:29,960 --> 03:49:32,600
Speaker 1: you're if you grow up like like I did. I

4290
03:49:32,640 --> 03:49:34,120
Speaker 1: don't know about your high school, but if.

4291
03:49:34,040 --> 03:49:36,720
Speaker 3: You are like I like that. I was just thinking

4292
03:49:36,800 --> 03:49:37,200
Speaker 3: the same thing.

4293
03:49:37,280 --> 03:49:41,000
Speaker 10: Like my vocabulary in high school was yeah, yeah, there

4294
03:49:41,080 --> 03:49:43,600
Speaker 10: is there's a slur that starts with F that was

4295
03:49:43,680 --> 03:49:45,560
Speaker 10: like every third word out of not just my mouth,

4296
03:49:45,600 --> 03:49:46,640
Speaker 10: but everyone I knew.

4297
03:49:46,760 --> 03:49:46,800
Speaker 5: No.

4298
03:49:47,440 --> 03:49:50,720
Speaker 1: The movie super Bad captures this to a significant degree

4299
03:49:50,720 --> 03:49:54,160
Speaker 1: of fidelity. To be honest, that's just the way shit was.

4300
03:49:54,240 --> 03:49:57,920
Speaker 1: And like the early aughts, and then you know, the

4301
03:49:58,000 --> 03:50:01,000
Speaker 1: people I hung around with, suddenly they were more people

4302
03:50:01,040 --> 03:50:04,320
Speaker 1: who were openly queer. And suddenly people weren't talking that way,

4303
03:50:04,480 --> 03:50:07,400
Speaker 1: and I stopped talking that way. It's just how people are.

4304
03:50:07,520 --> 03:50:10,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, just from like somebody that I admired being like, hey, yeah,

4305
03:50:11,000 --> 03:50:12,960
Speaker 3: I don't say that. I don't think that's cool. Oh

4306
03:50:14,400 --> 03:50:15,520
Speaker 3: that is kind of fucked up.

4307
03:50:15,560 --> 03:50:19,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, And then you know, and it's it's not an

4308
03:50:19,600 --> 03:50:21,440
Speaker 1: like yeah, I can I can go to my the

4309
03:50:21,520 --> 03:50:23,880
Speaker 1: subreddit for my show and see people being like yeah,

4310
03:50:23,880 --> 03:50:27,160
Speaker 1: I started getting interested in like anarchist politics and history

4311
03:50:27,200 --> 03:50:29,560
Speaker 1: and stuff because of something Robert said. And I don't

4312
03:50:29,560 --> 03:50:32,160
Speaker 1: think that's bad, because I think anarchist's history and politics

4313
03:50:32,200 --> 03:50:35,080
Speaker 1: are useful even if you're not an anarchist, right, it's

4314
03:50:35,160 --> 03:50:39,400
Speaker 1: valuable to understand that history. It's often undertold. But this

4315
03:50:39,600 --> 03:50:42,520
Speaker 1: is the same dynamic. This thing which has benefited me

4316
03:50:42,640 --> 03:50:44,680
Speaker 1: and to some extent benefited some of the ideas that

4317
03:50:44,760 --> 03:50:47,440
Speaker 1: I think are are should be more widely known. This

4318
03:50:47,560 --> 03:50:49,840
Speaker 1: is also why there's more nazis, right, like it's it's

4319
03:50:49,960 --> 03:50:54,600
Speaker 1: it's that's every where, which way and so so mccluan.

4320
03:50:54,720 --> 03:50:57,000
Speaker 10: You get these new mediums, you get the Internet, you

4321
03:50:57,120 --> 03:50:59,960
Speaker 10: get the subdivisions of the Internet, like you get social media,

4322
03:51:00,160 --> 03:51:04,680
Speaker 10: you get email, you get you know, instant messaging and whatnot.

4323
03:51:04,920 --> 03:51:10,120
Speaker 10: And because those technologies have this gravitational effect around them

4324
03:51:10,560 --> 03:51:14,880
Speaker 10: that alters the trajectory of how we structure our lives,

4325
03:51:16,760 --> 03:51:21,800
Speaker 10: they become because they are potent, because they are valuable

4326
03:51:21,880 --> 03:51:28,520
Speaker 10: communication vectors. They become prime targets for grift. And the

4327
03:51:28,600 --> 03:51:31,360
Speaker 10: thing is is that all of these technologies that have

4328
03:51:31,480 --> 03:51:36,000
Speaker 10: accelerated communication, you know, people have long been pointing out

4329
03:51:36,120 --> 03:51:39,600
Speaker 10: like the negative impacts of social media and just like

4330
03:51:40,440 --> 03:51:45,120
Speaker 10: the the effect on like self esteem, self perception of

4331
03:51:45,320 --> 03:51:51,800
Speaker 10: just being exposed to other people's curated idealized version of

4332
03:51:51,880 --> 03:51:57,680
Speaker 10: themselves so constantly. You know, it's like it's like that's

4333
03:51:57,800 --> 03:52:04,320
Speaker 10: already you know, impactful in potentially negative ways, and that's

4334
03:52:04,360 --> 03:52:08,800
Speaker 10: when you're dealing with like real people. And but then

4335
03:52:10,240 --> 03:52:12,240
Speaker 10: you add on to that that it's like, oh, you

4336
03:52:12,400 --> 03:52:15,520
Speaker 10: go on Instagram and like you can be following a

4337
03:52:15,680 --> 03:52:18,720
Speaker 10: bot and not even know it. You know, you're you're

4338
03:52:18,760 --> 03:52:21,560
Speaker 10: getting you know, and the algorithm is going to float

4339
03:52:21,600 --> 03:52:23,840
Speaker 10: this stuff. And so particularly if you're looking down these

4340
03:52:23,920 --> 03:52:31,360
Speaker 10: like these addictive infinite scroll feeds, you know, you don't

4341
03:52:31,440 --> 03:52:36,080
Speaker 10: have the filter of pre interaction to to gauge those things.

4342
03:52:36,480 --> 03:52:38,840
Speaker 10: So like so like I follow you on Twitter, and

4343
03:52:38,960 --> 03:52:41,200
Speaker 10: I know that if I see, like, oh, Robert Evans

4344
03:52:41,240 --> 03:52:43,560
Speaker 10: has retweeted this thing, that it's like okay, so like

4345
03:52:44,000 --> 03:52:47,040
Speaker 10: he's taken a look at it and and it's been

4346
03:52:47,080 --> 03:52:50,320
Speaker 10: through like the filter, the filter of his brain, and

4347
03:52:50,480 --> 03:52:52,800
Speaker 10: so I can probably just like, you know, take my

4348
03:52:52,960 --> 03:52:56,360
Speaker 10: trust in that thing up like one notch, right, But

4349
03:52:56,480 --> 03:52:59,760
Speaker 10: if I'm just like scrolling down the like the algorithmically

4350
03:53:00,080 --> 03:53:03,520
Speaker 10: he rated like this is what our computer has determined

4351
03:53:03,720 --> 03:53:06,000
Speaker 10: is similar to things that.

4352
03:53:06,080 --> 03:53:10,640
Speaker 3: You have already looked at. It's it's just it's so

4353
03:53:10,800 --> 03:53:11,680
Speaker 3: much more fraught.

4354
03:53:12,080 --> 03:53:15,480
Speaker 10: But there's it's really easy to be complacent and just

4355
03:53:15,600 --> 03:53:20,280
Speaker 10: be like, oh, I trust this thing, I trust this platform.

4356
03:53:20,320 --> 03:53:22,440
Speaker 10: And that's where we get into the trow of disappointment.

4357
03:53:22,880 --> 03:53:26,400
Speaker 10: Is ye this like I trust these algorithm. These algorithms

4358
03:53:26,480 --> 03:53:28,800
Speaker 10: do a really good job of like, oh, I watched

4359
03:53:29,040 --> 03:53:32,680
Speaker 10: Dan and so the YouTube algorithm introduced me to like

4360
03:53:32,840 --> 03:53:33,440
Speaker 10: a bunch.

4361
03:53:33,240 --> 03:53:34,760
Speaker 3: Of other really good creators.

4362
03:53:35,560 --> 03:53:35,880
Speaker 7: Cool.

4363
03:53:36,560 --> 03:53:40,440
Speaker 10: Uh oops, I watched one video on flat Earth and

4364
03:53:40,800 --> 03:53:46,520
Speaker 10: now my my recommends are full of like COVID denihialism

4365
03:53:46,600 --> 03:53:51,280
Speaker 10: and anti maskers and you know, the Trucker movement and

4366
03:53:52,000 --> 03:53:55,440
Speaker 10: and all of these other like wedges to just sort

4367
03:53:55,480 --> 03:53:56,960
Speaker 10: of slowly rot my brain.

4368
03:53:58,560 --> 03:54:02,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like it it's it's like kind of the

4369
03:54:02,200 --> 03:54:05,120
Speaker 1: way our parents told us, or Dare or whatever told

4370
03:54:05,200 --> 03:54:07,440
Speaker 1: us drugs worked, you know when we were little kids,

4371
03:54:07,760 --> 03:54:10,400
Speaker 1: where someone's like, oh, you want some pot. Here's some

4372
03:54:10,680 --> 03:54:12,920
Speaker 1: straight up heroin, right, Like you want some of it

4373
03:54:13,040 --> 03:54:16,560
Speaker 1: is too, like you want some crack cocaine? No, and

4374
03:54:16,680 --> 03:54:19,400
Speaker 1: I it is you know you were talking about, like, Yeah,

4375
03:54:19,440 --> 03:54:22,320
Speaker 1: you see you follow someone and you see them share something,

4376
03:54:22,400 --> 03:54:24,440
Speaker 1: and if they're a trusted source for you, you know,

4377
03:54:24,520 --> 03:54:27,400
Speaker 1: it bumps it up a notch and even that, you know,

4378
03:54:27,600 --> 03:54:30,400
Speaker 1: that's the way it like it works for me as well.

4379
03:54:30,480 --> 03:54:33,760
Speaker 1: But there's a degree to which I find it like problematic,

4380
03:54:33,920 --> 03:54:37,400
Speaker 1: especially because like we all fuck around on the internet too.

4381
03:54:37,520 --> 03:54:39,880
Speaker 1: I had a thing go crazy viral recently where like

4382
03:54:40,000 --> 03:54:44,280
Speaker 1: someone someone posted an obviously photoshopped image of like a control,

4383
03:54:44,440 --> 03:54:47,120
Speaker 1: like a Logitech controller at the bottom of the of

4384
03:54:47,240 --> 03:54:50,680
Speaker 1: the sea and was like, look the controllers survive, and I, like,

4385
03:54:50,760 --> 03:54:52,400
Speaker 1: I shared it to make a joke, right, And the

4386
03:54:52,480 --> 03:54:55,080
Speaker 1: joke was that, like, well, the joke was that, like, well,

4387
03:54:55,120 --> 03:54:56,760
Speaker 1: the controller we're going to find out was one of

4388
03:54:56,800 --> 03:54:59,400
Speaker 1: the more functional things about that terrible sub and that

4389
03:54:59,560 --> 03:55:01,480
Speaker 1: was and I posted underneath it this obviously this is

4390
03:55:01,640 --> 03:55:03,960
Speaker 1: not a real image, guys. But like then I saw

4391
03:55:04,280 --> 03:55:07,440
Speaker 1: like I wound up finding it went. The post that

4392
03:55:07,520 --> 03:55:09,640
Speaker 1: I did of it went so viral that like it

4393
03:55:10,040 --> 03:55:12,920
Speaker 1: wound up like screen captain in some different Reddit communities

4394
03:55:12,960 --> 03:55:15,080
Speaker 1: for people to talk about. And they it was only

4395
03:55:15,160 --> 03:55:16,680
Speaker 1: the first post, not the one where I was like,

4396
03:55:16,680 --> 03:55:19,240
Speaker 1: obviously this is fake, and like it was a joke,

4397
03:55:19,640 --> 03:55:21,120
Speaker 1: you know, it was it was a it was a

4398
03:55:21,240 --> 03:55:22,200
Speaker 1: it was a ship post.

4399
03:55:22,800 --> 03:55:24,240
Speaker 3: We were Banton online.

4400
03:55:24,320 --> 03:55:26,960
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah. But also I'm like, I wonder how

4401
03:55:27,000 --> 03:55:30,480
Speaker 1: many people now think that literally there's a Logitech controller

4402
03:55:30,560 --> 03:55:32,200
Speaker 1: that they found at the bottom of the sea because

4403
03:55:32,200 --> 03:55:35,760
Speaker 1: of that? What is what are the ethics now of

4404
03:55:35,920 --> 03:55:39,040
Speaker 1: like making a making a jib a jape as like

4405
03:55:39,200 --> 03:55:41,360
Speaker 1: somebody who's got like a following, like where does that

4406
03:55:41,520 --> 03:55:43,320
Speaker 1: come into? And like I don't know, and I don't

4407
03:55:43,520 --> 03:55:46,520
Speaker 1: I'm certainly not like clear on it because I seem

4408
03:55:46,560 --> 03:55:49,200
Speaker 1: to be incapable of not shit posting. I spent too

4409
03:55:49,280 --> 03:55:53,920
Speaker 1: much time on something awful as well. But it's so

4410
03:55:54,200 --> 03:55:55,160
Speaker 1: it's so hard.

4411
03:55:55,000 --> 03:55:57,480
Speaker 3: To give up. I miss it. I miss the days

4412
03:55:57,520 --> 03:56:00,520
Speaker 3: when I could just make like tasteless jokes on on

4413
03:56:01,040 --> 03:56:05,240
Speaker 3: on Twitter and you know, a couple hundred people would

4414
03:56:05,240 --> 03:56:07,440
Speaker 3: see them and go like that's funny. Uh.

4415
03:56:07,720 --> 03:56:10,400
Speaker 10: And now it's like, ah, if if I'm a little

4416
03:56:10,440 --> 03:56:13,440
Speaker 10: too ironic, someone's gonna be like, oh crap, are are

4417
03:56:13,480 --> 03:56:14,640
Speaker 10: you like that happened?

4418
03:56:14,840 --> 03:56:17,320
Speaker 3: It's like, no, no, that did not happen. Not happened.

4419
03:56:17,400 --> 03:56:19,520
Speaker 3: This is this is fake. I am. I am telling

4420
03:56:19,560 --> 03:56:21,560
Speaker 3: you lies. For it was a bit, but it was

4421
03:56:21,640 --> 03:56:21,960
Speaker 3: a bit.

4422
03:56:22,440 --> 03:56:25,640
Speaker 1: I was doing a bit, but no, and that's like

4423
03:56:26,080 --> 03:56:29,000
Speaker 1: you know Something Awful, which is kind of the the

4424
03:56:29,480 --> 03:56:32,800
Speaker 1: the digit It's like the oh crap, now I've forgotten

4425
03:56:32,800 --> 03:56:34,680
Speaker 1: a very basic science team, you know, the big, the

4426
03:56:34,720 --> 03:56:37,600
Speaker 1: big puddle of boiling goop. That life came out of

4427
03:56:38,320 --> 03:56:43,320
Speaker 1: the primori. It's the primordial, primordial of digital culture. That's

4428
03:56:43,360 --> 03:56:45,080
Speaker 1: what Something Awful was.

4429
03:56:45,320 --> 03:56:48,680
Speaker 9: It was a forum website that gave birth in various ways,

4430
03:56:48,760 --> 03:56:52,160
Speaker 9: some direct and some indirect, to four Chan, to Reddit,

4431
03:56:53,120 --> 03:56:55,560
Speaker 9: to Twitter culture, you know, to all of these different

4432
03:56:55,600 --> 03:56:58,680
Speaker 9: to anonymous, to all of these different like things have

4433
03:56:58,800 --> 03:57:01,440
Speaker 9: a you can trace a lineage back to Something Awful.

4434
03:57:03,160 --> 03:57:06,280
Speaker 9: And the motto of that website, as written by the

4435
03:57:06,440 --> 03:57:09,440
Speaker 9: terrible person who founded it, was the Internet makes you stupid.

4436
03:57:10,640 --> 03:57:12,120
Speaker 3: And I.

4437
03:57:13,920 --> 03:57:16,400
Speaker 1: At the time what that kind of meant was. And

4438
03:57:16,640 --> 03:57:19,880
Speaker 1: if you're younger, or if you just weren't very online

4439
03:57:19,880 --> 03:57:21,680
Speaker 1: in the late nineties early two thousands, you may not

4440
03:57:21,800 --> 03:57:24,200
Speaker 1: remember this long period, but there was a fairly long

4441
03:57:24,280 --> 03:57:28,760
Speaker 1: period where the default assumption in regular society was whatever

4442
03:57:28,960 --> 03:57:33,320
Speaker 1: happens online doesn't matter, right, like, it can't matter.

4443
03:57:33,360 --> 03:57:37,800
Speaker 10: It's probably fraudulent, it's almost certainly like made up. You

4444
03:57:37,920 --> 03:57:41,320
Speaker 10: can't you can't trust anything online and real.

4445
03:57:41,280 --> 03:57:44,600
Speaker 1: People are not on the internet, right, Like it's kids,

4446
03:57:44,760 --> 03:57:47,560
Speaker 1: it's nerds, but like, you know, guys who run banks

4447
03:57:47,600 --> 03:57:50,240
Speaker 1: aren't online. You know, Like the idea that the richest

4448
03:57:50,280 --> 03:57:52,440
Speaker 1: man in the world would spend all of his time

4449
03:57:52,960 --> 03:57:57,320
Speaker 1: shit posting was absurd, Like, so.

4450
03:57:58,360 --> 03:58:01,080
Speaker 3: He really should be busier than he had surfably, is he?

4451
03:58:01,240 --> 03:58:03,320
Speaker 1: Certainly it seems like it, although I guess so, shit,

4452
03:58:03,400 --> 03:58:11,920
Speaker 1: I I if I'm being fair, But yeah, it's there's this, uh,

4453
03:58:13,400 --> 03:58:17,760
Speaker 1: this degree to which digital culture is still very much

4454
03:58:19,000 --> 03:58:21,200
Speaker 1: a huge chunk of it. Like we all want it

4455
03:58:21,360 --> 03:58:23,320
Speaker 1: to not matter. We all want a place where we

4456
03:58:23,400 --> 03:58:26,440
Speaker 1: can just shit post and bullshit because shit posting and

4457
03:58:26,480 --> 03:58:29,800
Speaker 1: bullshitting comes out of like the very same impulses that

4458
03:58:30,040 --> 03:58:32,320
Speaker 1: like determine a lot of how we interact with like

4459
03:58:32,400 --> 03:58:34,680
Speaker 1: our friends, right, you know, we all need some times

4460
03:58:34,680 --> 03:58:36,560
Speaker 1: where you can just sit down, have a couple of

4461
03:58:36,640 --> 03:58:40,200
Speaker 1: beers or whatever, and like say shit with your with

4462
03:58:40,320 --> 03:58:43,600
Speaker 1: your buds, you know, and it's not it's not being recorded,

4463
03:58:43,680 --> 03:58:46,560
Speaker 1: it's not going up any everywhere forever. You can just

4464
03:58:46,680 --> 03:58:49,440
Speaker 1: kind of like talk. This is the it's a it's

4465
03:58:49,480 --> 03:58:52,280
Speaker 1: a field almost. Social experimentation is a huge part of

4466
03:58:52,440 --> 03:58:57,000
Speaker 1: maturity of growing up becoming a person. Uh, and I

4467
03:58:57,120 --> 03:59:00,800
Speaker 1: think we all get kind of there. There's a degree

4468
03:59:00,880 --> 03:59:03,760
Speaker 1: of like the accessibility of the Internet that makes that

4469
03:59:04,240 --> 03:59:07,920
Speaker 1: impossible to entirely get over, even though it is demonstrably untrue.

4470
03:59:08,640 --> 03:59:11,120
Speaker 1: What happens on the Internet matters quite a lot, and

4471
03:59:11,520 --> 03:59:14,840
Speaker 1: you can have a real significant you can influence your

4472
03:59:14,880 --> 03:59:17,840
Speaker 1: own life in very negative ways by saying the wrong

4473
03:59:17,920 --> 03:59:19,520
Speaker 1: thing on the Internet at the wrong time.

4474
03:59:21,360 --> 03:59:21,560
Speaker 3: Yeah.

4475
03:59:21,800 --> 03:59:24,160
Speaker 10: I mean lots of people have observed just this fact

4476
03:59:24,160 --> 03:59:26,520
Speaker 10: that it's like on Reddit, you can you're not on Reddit,

4477
03:59:26,560 --> 03:59:29,160
Speaker 10: I mean on Reddit too, but you know, on Twitter,

4478
03:59:29,320 --> 03:59:34,320
Speaker 10: like once, you know, once a month, Twitter elects some

4479
03:59:36,120 --> 03:59:41,680
Speaker 10: ten follower anime profile pick with who with with a

4480
03:59:41,760 --> 03:59:45,560
Speaker 10: single tasteless joke and makes it the full crim of reality.

4481
03:59:47,040 --> 03:59:51,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, And it's like that's a and the thing, I

4482
03:59:51,680 --> 03:59:52,160
Speaker 3: don't think.

4483
03:59:52,080 --> 03:59:54,160
Speaker 10: This is actually that far off topic, just because like

4484
03:59:54,400 --> 03:59:58,760
Speaker 10: it's this warping of reality, this warping of like what

4485
03:59:59,040 --> 04:00:04,040
Speaker 10: is real, what is trustworthy, what are the like impacts

4486
04:00:04,120 --> 04:00:06,440
Speaker 10: of things, And the fact that like you know, ten

4487
04:00:06,560 --> 04:00:12,440
Speaker 10: follower account can become can become international news, Yeah, has

4488
04:00:12,560 --> 04:00:17,280
Speaker 10: to sit alongside the endless bombardment of dick pills and

4489
04:00:19,960 --> 04:00:22,480
Speaker 10: global leaders, Like I had this joke that I was

4490
04:00:22,520 --> 04:00:25,440
Speaker 10: trying to formulate over the weekend of like World War

4491
04:00:25,560 --> 04:00:29,640
Speaker 10: two with Twitter, where it's like, you know, just a

4492
04:00:29,760 --> 04:00:32,560
Speaker 10: joke hinging on the idea that some like follower bought

4493
04:00:32,880 --> 04:00:35,920
Speaker 10: would observe this like, ah, it's like, you know, two

4494
04:00:36,000 --> 04:00:38,040
Speaker 10: posts in a row, Like it's like the USSR has

4495
04:00:38,160 --> 04:00:41,800
Speaker 10: rolled into Berlin, Stalin has unfriended the president. I hope

4496
04:00:41,840 --> 04:00:45,760
Speaker 10: this doesn't mean anything, you know that it's like that

4497
04:00:45,840 --> 04:00:50,840
Speaker 10: you have, like you have international politics happening in the

4498
04:00:50,920 --> 04:00:55,480
Speaker 10: same space as fake international politics, as the same space

4499
04:00:55,600 --> 04:01:00,120
Speaker 10: as just like this endless bombardment of you know, of

4500
04:01:00,400 --> 04:01:06,280
Speaker 10: curated reality, fictionalized reality, unreality and spam, and no one

4501
04:01:06,360 --> 04:01:09,200
Speaker 10: knows what's real anymore, no one knows what to trust,

4502
04:01:09,600 --> 04:01:13,000
Speaker 10: and the instinct and a lot of people is to

4503
04:01:13,160 --> 04:01:15,520
Speaker 10: just give up trying to parse the difference. And that

4504
04:01:15,800 --> 04:01:18,280
Speaker 10: makes us like increasingly vulnerable.

4505
04:01:19,360 --> 04:01:26,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think a big part of what's what's

4506
04:01:27,760 --> 04:01:29,520
Speaker 1: kind of at the core of the problem here is

4507
04:01:29,720 --> 04:01:32,000
Speaker 1: is what you've said here makes us vulnerable. The degree

4508
04:01:32,000 --> 04:01:35,680
Speaker 1: to which this can be weaponized is really significant. Like

4509
04:01:36,400 --> 04:01:37,960
Speaker 1: the you know, one of the things that we saw

4510
04:01:38,040 --> 04:01:40,120
Speaker 1: that I think is kind of low key a significant

4511
04:01:40,320 --> 04:01:44,240
Speaker 1: moment in sort of info conflict. Shit is this last

4512
04:01:45,120 --> 04:01:48,400
Speaker 1: this weekend? Last weekend from you know what we're talking now,

4513
04:01:49,520 --> 04:01:53,040
Speaker 1: there was a mutiny by the Wagner mercenary forces in

4514
04:01:53,560 --> 04:01:57,360
Speaker 1: Ukraine and Southern Russia against the Russian government, or at

4515
04:01:57,400 --> 04:01:59,640
Speaker 1: least that's what it appears to have been now, right,

4516
04:01:59,680 --> 04:02:01,920
Speaker 1: this is Russia. A lot of this is really weird.

4517
04:02:02,000 --> 04:02:04,560
Speaker 1: So I'm not going to say we don't we certainly

4518
04:02:04,600 --> 04:02:07,600
Speaker 1: don't know entirely like what happened there, like what's going

4519
04:02:07,640 --> 04:02:11,800
Speaker 1: on there? But a couple of things happened very quickly.

4520
04:02:11,880 --> 04:02:15,320
Speaker 1: For one, folks on the right, and there were also

4521
04:02:15,400 --> 04:02:18,520
Speaker 1: a lot of kind of like shit had left people

4522
04:02:18,600 --> 04:02:21,840
Speaker 1: who adopted this too, decided that liberals were cheering on

4523
04:02:22,600 --> 04:02:27,480
Speaker 1: the head of Wagner Evgeny Pregoshin because like they believed

4524
04:02:27,520 --> 04:02:29,360
Speaker 1: he was a reformer and that like they'd all thought

4525
04:02:29,440 --> 04:02:31,880
Speaker 1: this guy, who was like objectively a piece of shit

4526
04:02:32,000 --> 04:02:34,400
Speaker 1: and a fascist is like they're cheering him on because

4527
04:02:34,400 --> 04:02:37,000
Speaker 1: they hate Putin so much and they've convinced themselves that he's,

4528
04:02:37,320 --> 04:02:39,240
Speaker 1: you know, going to fix Russia. And he's like, no, no,

4529
04:02:39,520 --> 04:02:42,720
Speaker 1: I didn't see that, Like look I love calling people

4530
04:02:42,760 --> 04:02:45,840
Speaker 1: out when they have shitty takes, specifically on this specific war,

4531
04:02:45,840 --> 04:02:48,240
Speaker 1: because I've been covering it since twenty fourteen. But like,

4532
04:02:48,560 --> 04:02:50,800
Speaker 1: I didn't see that, and none of the people talking

4533
04:02:50,800 --> 04:02:54,360
Speaker 1: about how liberals were doing this provided any evidence of it.

4534
04:02:54,440 --> 04:02:56,800
Speaker 1: And it happens all the time, right Sometimes people will

4535
04:02:56,880 --> 04:02:59,400
Speaker 1: like take a post that has like thirty likes and

4536
04:02:59,520 --> 04:03:01,960
Speaker 1: be like, this is what the left is saying. But

4537
04:03:02,120 --> 04:03:04,280
Speaker 1: like with this, there was even less. Like I didn't

4538
04:03:04,280 --> 04:03:07,400
Speaker 1: see a single post where someone was like, Pregosion's gonna

4539
04:03:07,440 --> 04:03:09,920
Speaker 1: like fix you know, corruption in Russia or whatever. No

4540
04:03:10,040 --> 04:03:13,360
Speaker 1: one was saying that they just invented that this was

4541
04:03:13,440 --> 04:03:15,680
Speaker 1: going on. And it part of it is that, like,

4542
04:03:16,600 --> 04:03:18,360
Speaker 1: you know, the way Twitter works now made it a

4543
04:03:18,400 --> 04:03:21,240
Speaker 1: lot easier for dis info to spread from this thing.

4544
04:03:21,400 --> 04:03:23,960
Speaker 1: Like there was very famously a guy who is an

4545
04:03:24,120 --> 04:03:27,240
Speaker 1: absolutely a con artist just started sharing a bunch of

4546
04:03:27,360 --> 04:03:30,520
Speaker 1: videos from there with like bad commentary that was inaccurate,

4547
04:03:30,720 --> 04:03:32,760
Speaker 1: and Elon Musk was like, this is the guy I've.

4548
04:03:32,640 --> 04:03:35,160
Speaker 9: Come to trust about. You can say Elon Musk, Yeah,

4549
04:03:35,240 --> 04:03:39,920
Speaker 9: we can say Elon Musk. I don't know, it's a problem, Dan, So.

4550
04:03:40,080 --> 04:03:42,200
Speaker 10: You beat me to Elon Musk because I was going

4551
04:03:42,280 --> 04:03:44,120
Speaker 10: to say this like the con artist was, but then

4552
04:03:44,160 --> 04:03:46,080
Speaker 10: it turns out that he was just retweeting that guy.

4553
04:03:46,160 --> 04:03:48,520
Speaker 10: It's like he got of course he got involved anyway.

4554
04:03:48,680 --> 04:03:53,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, And it's the I don't think this the

4555
04:03:53,680 --> 04:03:56,760
Speaker 1: solution was not because we lived, you know, our parents

4556
04:03:56,840 --> 04:03:59,120
Speaker 1: and grandparents lived to the day where most people would

4557
04:03:59,120 --> 04:04:01,880
Speaker 1: be like, well, you know, folks who are in politics

4558
04:04:02,040 --> 04:04:03,880
Speaker 1: maybe need to care about this. I might want to

4559
04:04:03,920 --> 04:04:07,080
Speaker 1: get the broad strokes of it, but like random people,

4560
04:04:07,480 --> 04:04:11,280
Speaker 1: you know, shouldn't be influencing what's going on with these

4561
04:04:11,360 --> 04:04:13,720
Speaker 1: international relations. And that's how you get shited, like the

4562
04:04:13,800 --> 04:04:16,600
Speaker 1: Dulles brothers carrying out coups all over the world on

4563
04:04:16,680 --> 04:04:18,920
Speaker 1: behalf of the US government, where most Americans are.

4564
04:04:18,840 --> 04:04:20,440
Speaker 9: Like, what did we do in Guatemala? I didn't know

4565
04:04:20,480 --> 04:04:23,360
Speaker 9: we had guys in Guatemala and that wasn't great. But

4566
04:04:23,480 --> 04:04:27,679
Speaker 9: also this new thing where if you are a personality,

4567
04:04:27,880 --> 04:04:32,000
Speaker 9: if you are in media, then you are obliged to

4568
04:04:32,160 --> 04:04:35,200
Speaker 9: be a part of every big thing that happens everywhere,

4569
04:04:35,400 --> 04:04:39,000
Speaker 9: even if you are demonstrably incompetent at that and everyone

4570
04:04:39,080 --> 04:04:40,640
Speaker 9: is demonstrably incompetent at that.

4571
04:04:40,840 --> 04:04:43,800
Speaker 3: Past a certain point you know. Yeah, and that's been

4572
04:04:44,160 --> 04:04:46,480
Speaker 3: Oh boy has that. That's been a lot to deal with.

4573
04:04:47,000 --> 04:04:50,000
Speaker 1: And it going back to the original thing that started

4574
04:04:50,040 --> 04:04:52,680
Speaker 1: this conversation. That's part of how so many of these

4575
04:04:52,800 --> 04:04:58,120
Speaker 1: cons perpetuate is that, like, people are only competent, including

4576
04:04:58,240 --> 04:05:02,720
Speaker 1: famous people, including people with followings in limited areas, and

4577
04:05:02,880 --> 04:05:05,320
Speaker 1: once you get out of your area of competence, it's

4578
04:05:05,400 --> 04:05:07,560
Speaker 1: easy to get fooled. And if there's a bunch of

4579
04:05:07,640 --> 04:05:09,520
Speaker 1: people who trust you because of the things you were

4580
04:05:09,600 --> 04:05:12,440
Speaker 1: right about, then they can very easily get fooled when

4581
04:05:12,440 --> 04:05:13,160
Speaker 1: you get fooled.

4582
04:05:13,720 --> 04:05:17,600
Speaker 10: One of the big hazards there is that, and this

4583
04:05:17,800 --> 04:05:22,520
Speaker 10: is a long standing observation, is that huckster's con artists

4584
04:05:23,200 --> 04:05:26,520
Speaker 10: are going to be more willing than anyone else to

4585
04:05:26,760 --> 04:05:27,480
Speaker 10: pretend to.

4586
04:05:29,040 --> 04:05:30,000
Speaker 3: Be up to date on it.

4587
04:05:30,720 --> 04:05:32,880
Speaker 10: They have no compunction about being It's like, oh, yeah,

4588
04:05:32,920 --> 04:05:36,680
Speaker 10: I know, I'm an expert on submarines and Ukraine and

4589
04:05:37,000 --> 04:05:39,520
Speaker 10: Russia and Belarus.

4590
04:05:39,960 --> 04:05:41,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know.

4591
04:05:41,400 --> 04:05:41,960
Speaker 6: So they're.

4592
04:05:44,520 --> 04:05:46,160
Speaker 10: The reason it's a con man is because it's a

4593
04:05:46,200 --> 04:05:48,800
Speaker 10: confidence man. Because they get your confidence because they act

4594
04:05:48,960 --> 04:05:52,480
Speaker 10: confidently and give you reason to give you reason to

4595
04:05:52,520 --> 04:05:55,320
Speaker 10: trust them, and they have no moral compunction about lying

4596
04:05:55,400 --> 04:05:58,680
Speaker 10: to you. Uh, and and they are always going to

4597
04:05:58,800 --> 04:06:04,200
Speaker 10: be fast with the take, faster with the confidence statement,

4598
04:06:04,520 --> 04:06:08,280
Speaker 10: faster with the solution, faster with the with with a

4599
04:06:08,360 --> 04:06:11,240
Speaker 10: call to action to buy their book or dick pills.

4600
04:06:12,320 --> 04:06:15,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's it's the And often I think part

4601
04:06:15,640 --> 04:06:17,280
Speaker 1: one of the things that's made this all so much

4602
04:06:17,320 --> 04:06:19,320
Speaker 1: harder to catch and so much more durable is that

4603
04:06:19,400 --> 04:06:22,000
Speaker 1: it's it used to be as obvious. You used to

4604
04:06:22,000 --> 04:06:23,640
Speaker 1: be able to see like, Okay, well, this guy's a

4605
04:06:23,680 --> 04:06:26,640
Speaker 1: con man. But like, I'm not a person who can

4606
04:06:26,680 --> 04:06:30,160
Speaker 1: be conned by someone selling diet pills. That's not my vulnerability,

4607
04:06:30,200 --> 04:06:32,360
Speaker 1: so I immediately recognize this guy as a con man.

4608
04:06:32,480 --> 04:06:34,560
Speaker 1: Or I am not a person who can be conned

4609
04:06:34,680 --> 04:06:37,680
Speaker 1: by Christianity stuff because I'm not a Christian, So I'm

4610
04:06:38,160 --> 04:06:41,000
Speaker 1: I'm not vulnerable to this con man. And now so

4611
04:06:41,200 --> 04:06:46,560
Speaker 1: much the cons are downstream of the following and of

4612
04:06:46,680 --> 04:06:49,720
Speaker 1: the fame, and so a lot of people are getting

4613
04:06:49,800 --> 04:06:52,240
Speaker 1: taken in by conman. And maybe you know the fact

4614
04:06:52,240 --> 04:06:54,640
Speaker 1: that person's putting in a link for their there's supplements,

4615
04:06:54,760 --> 04:06:58,160
Speaker 1: you know, on every viral post. You don't buy their supplements,

4616
04:06:58,440 --> 04:07:00,600
Speaker 1: but they'll come up with something else for you once

4617
04:07:00,640 --> 04:07:04,120
Speaker 1: they get you in, once you're in the funnel, or

4618
04:07:04,200 --> 04:07:06,920
Speaker 1: even if they never convince you to buy anything, if

4619
04:07:06,960 --> 04:07:10,000
Speaker 1: you're sharing their content, that's bringing more people into the funnel,

4620
04:07:10,320 --> 04:07:12,280
Speaker 1: you know, and that really wasn't the case. That wasn't

4621
04:07:12,280 --> 04:07:14,600
Speaker 1: the case with you know, you go back ten years

4622
04:07:14,640 --> 04:07:16,640
Speaker 1: talking about like Young Living right, or some other like

4623
04:07:16,720 --> 04:07:19,960
Speaker 1: multi level marketing company where they're selling you know, essential

4624
04:07:20,040 --> 04:07:24,160
Speaker 1: oils with fraudulent health claims. They weren't getting random people

4625
04:07:24,320 --> 04:07:26,880
Speaker 1: to spread their business without paying for shit.

4626
04:07:27,240 --> 04:07:28,280
Speaker 3: And now you can do that.

4627
04:07:28,320 --> 04:07:30,960
Speaker 1: If you're a con man and you've already got followers

4628
04:07:31,000 --> 04:07:34,160
Speaker 1: because you bought a bunch and you're you're on the Ukraine, shit,

4629
04:07:34,240 --> 04:07:37,600
Speaker 1: you just grab whatever videos and say whatever about them,

4630
04:07:37,880 --> 04:07:39,920
Speaker 1: you know, frame them in whatever way is likely to

4631
04:07:40,000 --> 04:07:42,800
Speaker 1: get people to share them the most. Then suddenly you

4632
04:07:42,880 --> 04:07:45,400
Speaker 1: gain two thousand, three hundred thousand followers in the space

4633
04:07:45,440 --> 04:07:47,720
Speaker 1: of a night or two, and your ability to scam

4634
04:07:47,840 --> 04:07:50,560
Speaker 1: people and get money out of them has increased several times.

4635
04:07:51,320 --> 04:07:56,200
Speaker 1: You know, the con is downstream of the of the platform, right,

4636
04:07:56,360 --> 04:08:00,440
Speaker 1: so you know that's you get this guy, maybe he's

4637
04:08:00,440 --> 04:08:02,880
Speaker 1: shilling thing X or thing. Why he's got a couple

4638
04:08:03,040 --> 04:08:06,760
Speaker 1: you know, whatever different con he has, But regular people

4639
04:08:07,080 --> 04:08:09,800
Speaker 1: can be in the in the business of spreading his platform,

4640
04:08:09,920 --> 04:08:13,200
Speaker 1: of increasing his profitability, even if they're not vulnerable to

4641
04:08:13,280 --> 04:08:14,840
Speaker 1: the con. Maybe they're not the kind of person who's

4642
04:08:14,840 --> 04:08:18,480
Speaker 1: ever going to buy weight loss pills or supplements or

4643
04:08:18,520 --> 04:08:22,320
Speaker 1: whatever kind of thing. But if this guy starts, you know,

4644
04:08:22,880 --> 04:08:25,640
Speaker 1: sharing all of these videos on the fighting in Ukraine,

4645
04:08:25,760 --> 04:08:27,360
Speaker 1: you know, at a moment when it happens to be

4646
04:08:27,480 --> 04:08:30,840
Speaker 1: the opportune moment to do that, and they go crazy viral, well,

4647
04:08:30,840 --> 04:08:33,800
Speaker 1: then that guy is able to triple his following and

4648
04:08:34,440 --> 04:08:36,920
Speaker 1: you know, and have people who are not interested in

4649
04:08:37,000 --> 04:08:39,880
Speaker 1: his con spread his shit, which gets him followers, which

4650
04:08:39,920 --> 04:08:42,400
Speaker 1: brings more traffic to whatever the money generating part of

4651
04:08:42,480 --> 04:08:42,960
Speaker 1: the con is.

4652
04:08:45,200 --> 04:08:50,840
Speaker 10: Yeah, it's it's all a sales funnel or just anxiety.

4653
04:08:52,320 --> 04:08:55,440
Speaker 10: We have built our society into just like a giant

4654
04:08:55,640 --> 04:08:59,520
Speaker 10: nested series of sales funnels. Yeah, I don't know, Dan,

4655
04:08:59,720 --> 04:09:02,000
Speaker 10: that's bound to be a solid foundation. I don't see

4656
04:09:02,000 --> 04:09:03,680
Speaker 10: if you go wrong. That seems like that will go

4657
04:09:03,800 --> 04:09:06,200
Speaker 10: well for us. How do we get any ideas on

4658
04:09:06,240 --> 04:09:08,680
Speaker 10: how to fix it? Or should we just should we

4659
04:09:08,880 --> 04:09:11,560
Speaker 10: just state a problem and then run away? I mean

4660
04:09:11,640 --> 04:09:15,120
Speaker 10: the easy thing to do would be to restore trust

4661
04:09:15,200 --> 04:09:16,840
Speaker 10: in our public institutions.

4662
04:09:18,720 --> 04:09:20,560
Speaker 3: You know, if we could.

4663
04:09:22,280 --> 04:09:25,800
Speaker 10: Have sort of like I don't even want to say,

4664
04:09:25,880 --> 04:09:29,640
Speaker 10: like a unifying cause, but just a sense of common

4665
04:09:29,960 --> 04:09:34,360
Speaker 10: of like shared commonalty and and trust in like our

4666
04:09:34,600 --> 04:09:39,360
Speaker 10: local our local society, you know, strong like not necessarily

4667
04:09:39,400 --> 04:09:44,320
Speaker 10: strong families, but like strong family units constructed or natural

4668
04:09:44,600 --> 04:09:47,360
Speaker 10: or however you want to like define our constructors, but

4669
04:09:47,480 --> 04:09:51,080
Speaker 10: like local with like good infrastructure around us so that

4670
04:09:51,280 --> 04:09:55,520
Speaker 10: our physical spaces are you know, appealing and comfortable to

4671
04:09:55,680 --> 04:09:58,240
Speaker 10: live in and and provide us a sense of like

4672
04:09:58,520 --> 04:10:02,720
Speaker 10: enrichment and fulfill you know, the easy stuff. Yeah, just

4673
04:10:02,880 --> 04:10:07,720
Speaker 10: just fix infrastructure, fix society, fix media, and uh and

4674
04:10:07,920 --> 04:10:08,680
Speaker 10: then I think we're good.

4675
04:10:09,480 --> 04:10:09,680
Speaker 2: Yeah.

4676
04:10:09,920 --> 04:10:12,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, so that's that's good. So if we fix everything,

4677
04:10:12,600 --> 04:10:16,160
Speaker 1: then we won't have any more problems. That's great. We're

4678
04:10:16,200 --> 04:10:18,400
Speaker 1: on the same page now. I mean it is really

4679
04:10:18,560 --> 04:10:21,400
Speaker 1: like and this is there's it's also there's also this

4680
04:10:21,520 --> 04:10:23,720
Speaker 1: kind of like problematic element of when you're like, well,

4681
04:10:23,760 --> 04:10:26,560
Speaker 1: we want to like a problem is that there's zero

4682
04:10:26,680 --> 04:10:29,680
Speaker 1: trust in institutions objectively a problem because it means that

4683
04:10:29,720 --> 04:10:32,800
Speaker 1: when say the CDC is like, hey, guys, there's this,

4684
04:10:33,000 --> 04:10:34,800
Speaker 1: there's a plague, we should probably do this, and this

4685
04:10:34,920 --> 04:10:37,520
Speaker 1: and this. It immediately becomes a culture war thing, and

4686
04:10:37,640 --> 04:10:41,560
Speaker 1: so you can't actually you can't actually confront serious problems

4687
04:10:41,600 --> 04:10:43,400
Speaker 1: the way that you need to be able to confront them.

4688
04:10:43,680 --> 04:10:49,160
Speaker 1: It's just not possible anymore. Likewise, Like, but the other

4689
04:10:49,240 --> 04:10:51,400
Speaker 1: issue is that, like, well, for a significant chunks of

4690
04:10:51,400 --> 04:10:54,520
Speaker 1: the population, there's never been any good reason to trust,

4691
04:10:54,760 --> 04:10:57,680
Speaker 1: you know, the institutions because you know, they're marginalized groups

4692
04:10:57,720 --> 04:11:00,960
Speaker 1: and whatever. You know, when the institution trust was higher,

4693
04:11:01,120 --> 04:11:02,920
Speaker 1: like the government was fucking them in this way and

4694
04:11:03,000 --> 04:11:06,960
Speaker 1: that way, and yeah, you know that's also so I wonder,

4695
04:11:07,640 --> 04:11:09,960
Speaker 1: like I think there's a significant extent to which we

4696
04:11:10,120 --> 04:11:14,440
Speaker 1: need new concepts of like what an institution is and

4697
04:11:15,040 --> 04:11:17,760
Speaker 1: should be, Like we need It's it's such a ground

4698
04:11:17,880 --> 04:11:21,040
Speaker 1: floor problem because like I don't know, we're never getting

4699
04:11:21,080 --> 04:11:23,760
Speaker 1: back to a point where Americans trust the CDC. Like

4700
04:11:23,840 --> 04:11:26,440
Speaker 1: that's just not going to happen, you know, Like whatever

4701
04:11:26,640 --> 04:11:30,880
Speaker 1: the way forward is on us having less the overcoming

4702
04:11:30,960 --> 04:11:34,440
Speaker 1: the anti vax anti science shit around medicine, it's not

4703
04:11:34,760 --> 04:11:37,280
Speaker 1: getting everyone to love the CDC. You know, that's just

4704
04:11:37,400 --> 04:11:38,760
Speaker 1: not ever going to happen again.

4705
04:11:39,000 --> 04:11:39,200
Speaker 5: Yeah.

4706
04:11:39,600 --> 04:11:42,040
Speaker 10: And part of the complexity here is that it's it's

4707
04:11:42,080 --> 04:11:45,200
Speaker 10: really easy to sort of say that, you know, it's like, Okay, well,

4708
04:11:45,280 --> 04:11:49,880
Speaker 10: the solution is like strong central institutions, and it's like

4709
04:11:49,960 --> 04:11:55,320
Speaker 10: that's not that's not correct at all either, because like

4710
04:11:55,760 --> 04:11:58,120
Speaker 10: I mean, the my go to example for that would

4711
04:11:58,160 --> 04:11:59,800
Speaker 10: be that it's like look at look at the LDS,

4712
04:12:00,120 --> 04:12:02,920
Speaker 10: look at Mormons. They have a very very strong central

4713
04:12:03,000 --> 04:12:08,120
Speaker 10: institution that provides this like social anchoring point for a

4714
04:12:08,200 --> 04:12:11,840
Speaker 10: lot of their lives, and yet Mormon communities are incredibly

4715
04:12:11,960 --> 04:12:17,040
Speaker 10: vulnerable to affinity fraud and MLM's you know, like Utah

4716
04:12:17,200 --> 04:12:22,520
Speaker 10: Salt Lake is like the locus of MLM culture, and

4717
04:12:22,720 --> 04:12:27,400
Speaker 10: so like it's not the sort of like strong man like, ah,

4718
04:12:27,480 --> 04:12:30,480
Speaker 10: this is why we need strong like you know, strong.

4719
04:12:30,360 --> 04:12:31,560
Speaker 3: Leaders is is not.

4720
04:12:33,240 --> 04:12:36,160
Speaker 10: Isn't the answer in its own way, even if it's

4721
04:12:36,200 --> 04:12:39,160
Speaker 10: a very tempting sort of like answer to gravitate towards.

4722
04:12:39,280 --> 04:12:44,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's that's I don't know. I don't actually know.

4723
04:12:47,320 --> 04:12:49,680
Speaker 1: Part of the problem is that like there are little solutions, right,

4724
04:12:49,760 --> 04:12:51,600
Speaker 1: there are little things that you can do, stuff like

4725
04:12:51,760 --> 04:12:57,240
Speaker 1: advocating for you know, a more functional idea of like

4726
04:12:57,480 --> 04:12:59,680
Speaker 1: more a more functional legal definition of like what an

4727
04:12:59,720 --> 04:13:03,000
Speaker 1: auto dialer is and what counts as like illegally sort

4728
04:13:03,040 --> 04:13:05,560
Speaker 1: of like flooding phone lines with with with cons and

4729
04:13:05,600 --> 04:13:08,480
Speaker 1: stuff or restricting you know, the ability of people like

4730
04:13:08,680 --> 04:13:12,600
Speaker 1: bill collectors and stuff to utilize you know, the phone

4731
04:13:12,680 --> 04:13:14,400
Speaker 1: system in some of the ways that they do, like

4732
04:13:14,480 --> 04:13:18,680
Speaker 1: the and that can make stuff better. Just like you know,

4733
04:13:18,760 --> 04:13:22,880
Speaker 1: at a certain point, we will develop tools that mitigate

4734
04:13:23,040 --> 04:13:25,480
Speaker 1: some of the harm AI is doing in the con space.

4735
04:13:25,560 --> 04:13:28,160
Speaker 1: Some of its ability to automate and push shit to

4736
04:13:28,280 --> 04:13:31,280
Speaker 1: people at scale will get reduced at a certain point.

4737
04:13:31,280 --> 04:13:33,280
Speaker 1: That will happen, right, because it happens with everything. You know,

4738
04:13:33,360 --> 04:13:34,520
Speaker 1: AI is not unique.

4739
04:13:35,560 --> 04:13:36,680
Speaker 6: This is the It's it's a.

4740
04:13:37,000 --> 04:13:40,360
Speaker 1: You've heard the you've heard the red Queen hypothesis, right, Yeah,

4741
04:13:40,560 --> 04:13:42,320
Speaker 1: it's kind of a way of like for it's kind

4742
04:13:42,360 --> 04:13:44,480
Speaker 1: of like a way of looking at evolutionary theory. There's

4743
04:13:44,520 --> 04:13:48,000
Speaker 1: this this point in Alice in Wonderland where you know,

4744
04:13:48,120 --> 04:13:51,160
Speaker 1: the Red Queen kind of like traps Alice in this

4745
04:13:51,280 --> 04:13:53,880
Speaker 1: situation where like she's got to keep running as fast

4746
04:13:53,920 --> 04:13:58,120
Speaker 1: as she can. But it's like a situation like a

4747
04:13:58,200 --> 04:14:01,440
Speaker 1: conveyor belt sort of situations. No matter how hard she runs,

4748
04:14:01,760 --> 04:14:04,080
Speaker 1: she never gets ahead, right, And that's kind of the

4749
04:14:04,160 --> 04:14:07,600
Speaker 1: way that like the evolutionary arms race works, right, Like

4750
04:14:08,040 --> 04:14:10,560
Speaker 1: you know, one one animal develops a defense against a

4751
04:14:10,600 --> 04:14:12,960
Speaker 1: predator and the predator develops a way around it, and

4752
04:14:13,120 --> 04:14:17,960
Speaker 1: like the the the like, that's kind of the best

4753
04:14:18,040 --> 04:14:20,920
Speaker 1: case scenario for how we adapt to cons I think actually,

4754
04:14:21,080 --> 04:14:24,080
Speaker 1: like technology just moves too fast now for us to

4755
04:14:24,760 --> 04:14:26,720
Speaker 1: to be able to keep up, right, Like we're not

4756
04:14:27,160 --> 04:14:30,760
Speaker 1: We're not just standing in place. We're consistently following behind

4757
04:14:31,080 --> 04:14:34,960
Speaker 1: and I don't know, I don't know what we do here, uh, I.

4758
04:14:35,000 --> 04:14:37,680
Speaker 10: Mean yeah, so like there will there will be technol

4759
04:14:37,880 --> 04:14:42,240
Speaker 10: technological solutions to specific manifestations. I mean a big one

4760
04:14:42,440 --> 04:14:45,160
Speaker 10: like in there, like to not to not ban is

4761
04:14:45,240 --> 04:14:50,600
Speaker 10: that you know the uh uh at a, the legal system,

4762
04:14:50,760 --> 04:14:54,200
Speaker 10: the governments, Like governments need to do something about the

4763
04:14:54,360 --> 04:14:58,160
Speaker 10: robocalling and the text messages because they're rendering a vital

4764
04:14:58,240 --> 04:15:02,600
Speaker 10: piece of like synek infrastructure unusable. Yeah, people don't trust

4765
04:15:02,720 --> 04:15:08,120
Speaker 10: their phones anymore, and that's that's bad because it means

4766
04:15:08,160 --> 04:15:09,040
Speaker 10: they stop using it.

4767
04:15:09,360 --> 04:15:09,520
Speaker 3: You know.

4768
04:15:09,640 --> 04:15:14,800
Speaker 10: It's like there's yeah, there's very real like consequences and

4769
04:15:15,960 --> 04:15:18,840
Speaker 10: we need to be able to trust that we're talking

4770
04:15:19,440 --> 04:15:24,120
Speaker 10: to people who aren't just trying to get our money.

4771
04:15:24,840 --> 04:15:30,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, yep, Well, Dan, you got anything you want to

4772
04:15:30,640 --> 04:15:33,480
Speaker 1: plug at the end of this. Here your YouTube channel,

4773
04:15:33,520 --> 04:15:36,480
Speaker 1: Folding Ideas everyone should check out if you have not already.

4774
04:15:37,160 --> 04:15:39,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, the YouTube channel that's going to be the big one.

4775
04:15:40,280 --> 04:15:40,840
Speaker 3: I'm still on.

4776
04:15:41,200 --> 04:15:43,840
Speaker 10: I'm on socials at Foldable Human, though I'm trying to

4777
04:15:43,920 --> 04:15:46,200
Speaker 10: wean myself off of them because they're broken and being

4778
04:15:46,280 --> 04:15:49,880
Speaker 10: broken on purpose and they're bad for my soul. So

4779
04:15:50,440 --> 04:15:53,120
Speaker 10: I still I'm addicted, So I still keep coming back,

4780
04:15:53,280 --> 04:15:55,600
Speaker 10: but I'm a lot less active than I used to be.

4781
04:15:56,120 --> 04:15:58,480
Speaker 1: Oh sorry, I didn't hear you. I was too busy

4782
04:15:58,760 --> 04:16:00,640
Speaker 1: getting anxious because of a thing on Twitter.

4783
04:16:03,760 --> 04:16:03,800
Speaker 2: No.

4784
04:16:04,000 --> 04:16:07,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, Dan, thank you so much for coming on today.

4785
04:16:07,440 --> 04:16:10,040
Speaker 1: I really appreciate your thoughts on all of this. I'm

4786
04:16:10,080 --> 04:16:14,640
Speaker 1: looking forward to your next video, your next investigation, whatever

4787
04:16:14,720 --> 04:16:18,120
Speaker 1: that happens to be. Folks should check out. If you haven't,

4788
04:16:18,640 --> 04:16:21,800
Speaker 1: Line goes up your documentary on NFTs. You should check

4789
04:16:21,840 --> 04:16:25,160
Speaker 1: out entrepreneurs is I think what you called your Mickelson

4790
04:16:25,200 --> 04:16:30,600
Speaker 1: Twins documentary. Yeah, check out everything Dan has done. Thank you, Dan,

4791
04:16:30,840 --> 04:16:33,920
Speaker 1: And that is the episode you can all go home

4792
04:16:34,040 --> 04:16:37,560
Speaker 1: now and deal with the fact that your bank information

4793
04:16:37,960 --> 04:16:44,240
Speaker 1: just got stolen by somebody in Macedonia. Hey, we'll be

4794
04:16:44,320 --> 04:16:47,640
Speaker 1: back Monday with more episodes every week from now until

4795
04:16:47,680 --> 04:16:48,800
Speaker 1: the heat death of the Universe.

4796
04:16:49,440 --> 04:16:51,760
Speaker 3: It Could Happen Here as a production of cool Zone Media.

4797
04:16:52,040 --> 04:16:54,680
Speaker 3: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website

4798
04:16:54,720 --> 04:16:56,920
Speaker 3: cool zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the

4799
04:16:56,960 --> 04:17:00,400
Speaker 3: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

4800
04:17:00,800 --> 04:17:02,920
Speaker 3: You can find sources for It Could Happen Here, updated

4801
04:17:03,000 --> 04:17:07,000
Speaker 3: monthly at coolzonemedia dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.