WEBVTT - #045 Jason Flom with Vanessa Gathers 0:00:02.560 --> 0:00:05.800 I fell into the hands of a corrupt detective. 0:00:07.200 --> 0:00:10.000 I was naive enough to believe that I would be 0:00:10.039 --> 0:00:13.040 able to just present all of my proof of actual innocence, 0:00:13.039 --> 0:00:15.600 that they would investigate adequately, and so that I wouldn't 0:00:15.600 --> 0:00:17.160 be going to prison because I was a good person. 0:00:17.200 --> 0:00:18.200 I hadn't done anything wrong. 0:00:19.280 --> 0:00:21.080 In the back of your mind, you say, well, when 0:00:21.120 --> 0:00:23.680 we go to a hearing or we go to court, 0:00:23.720 --> 0:00:26.560 the truth will come out. The prosecution from day one 0:00:26.640 --> 0:00:30.480 knew I was innocent and let forced testimony go uncorrected 0:00:30.880 --> 0:00:33.159 from the lower courts all the way up to the 0:00:33.240 --> 0:00:34.920 United States Supreme Court. 0:00:36.159 --> 0:00:41.280 You have someone with a badge with ultimate and really, 0:00:41.440 --> 0:00:43.159 in that moment, unchecked authority. 0:00:44.640 --> 0:00:47.320 Don't presume that people are guilty when you see them 0:00:47.320 --> 0:00:50.400 on TV, because it may just be a dirty da 0:00:50.600 --> 0:00:52.280 that is trying to rise upward. 0:00:57.800 --> 0:01:12.560 This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with 0:01:12.640 --> 0:01:16.559 Jason Flamm. Today, I have two very special guests, and 0:01:16.600 --> 0:01:18.600 you'll learn more about that surely, but first I'm going 0:01:18.640 --> 0:01:22.080 to introduce them. Vanessa Gathers is our star today. 0:01:23.040 --> 0:01:26.039 Just months after the Crown Heights riots back in nineteen 0:01:26.120 --> 0:01:29.920 ninety one, Gathers was called in for questioning for robbery 0:01:30.280 --> 0:01:32.720 and the beating of an elderly man inside of his 0:01:32.800 --> 0:01:36.839 Crown Heights apartment. The victim fell into a coma then died. 0:01:37.240 --> 0:01:42.120 The case was classified a homicide. That's when controversial former 0:01:42.319 --> 0:01:47.600 NYPD detective Louis Scarcella took over the case. Five years later, 0:01:47.960 --> 0:01:52.720 Scarcella reinterviewed Gathers and said she made a full confession. 0:01:53.200 --> 0:01:57.000 Gathers was convicted on that confession alone. The former detective 0:01:57.120 --> 0:01:59.480 is in the middle of several cases where people went 0:01:59.520 --> 0:02:01.560 to prison for crimes they did not commit. 0:02:02.120 --> 0:02:02.360 D A. 0:02:02.440 --> 0:02:07.520 Thompson and his team have already exonerated seventeen men. Gathers 0:02:07.680 --> 0:02:10.760 is the eighteenth, the first woman. Right now, the DA's 0:02:10.800 --> 0:02:14.160 office is looking into at least one hundred other cases. 0:02:14.639 --> 0:02:17.440 Fifty eight year old Vanessa Gatherers, who will no longer 0:02:17.560 --> 0:02:21.040 be labeled a convicted felon after ten years in prison 0:02:21.040 --> 0:02:25.280 for manslaughter, Brooklyn District Attorney Ken Thompson is expected to 0:02:25.400 --> 0:02:26.480 vacate her conviction. 0:02:26.720 --> 0:02:28.960 We're going to take a step to not only vacate 0:02:29.160 --> 0:02:32.239 misgathers conviction, but to give her her good name back. 0:02:33.639 --> 0:02:37.400 Vanessa, welcome to the show. Thank you, and her badass 0:02:37.440 --> 0:02:41.760 attorney is here as well. Lisa Cahill, Welcome to Ronful Conviction. 0:02:42.040 --> 0:02:42.840 Happy to be here. 0:02:43.680 --> 0:02:48.320 So, Vanessa, let's go back to when life was simpler, right, 0:02:48.440 --> 0:02:54.720 because before this crazy incident happened, you were living basically 0:02:54.760 --> 0:02:58.440 a normal life like anyone else. Right. Yes, were you 0:02:58.520 --> 0:03:00.400 in a lot of trouble with the laws? Reason that 0:03:00.400 --> 0:03:02.720 they would have ever suspected you of being involved in 0:03:02.760 --> 0:03:07.520 a cold blooded murder, a terrible beating death, not at all? 0:03:07.680 --> 0:03:09.760 What were you doing? What was your life like? Where'd 0:03:09.800 --> 0:03:10.320 you grow up? 0:03:10.720 --> 0:03:15.240 I grew up in Jersey City, in North Carolina, and 0:03:15.280 --> 0:03:18.200 then I moved to New York in seventy nine and 0:03:18.600 --> 0:03:22.040 I started working. I was working in Manhattan doing what 0:03:22.520 --> 0:03:26.400 I worked for, Gristities. I worked for a lawyer when 0:03:26.440 --> 0:03:29.440 I first arrived to New York City, So. 0:03:29.680 --> 0:03:32.280 Just finding your way doing different jobs whatever. 0:03:32.680 --> 0:03:35.960 I stayed with Gristities for quite some time. 0:03:36.280 --> 0:03:38.600 The original job I had was working for a lawyer, 0:03:39.120 --> 0:03:42.200 a criminal lawyer, and I was just doing statements of 0:03:42.320 --> 0:03:47.080 fouling and typing up notes. Things got slow, so later 0:03:47.160 --> 0:03:50.720 on I found a job with Cristiitis. He let me 0:03:50.760 --> 0:03:52.440 stay until I found something better. 0:03:52.880 --> 0:03:55.760 So you came to New York, like most people do. 0:03:55.840 --> 0:03:58.160 I guess, to pursue your dreams and find your way. 0:03:58.200 --> 0:04:01.080 And you were finding your way, things were going okay. 0:04:01.120 --> 0:04:02.960 Do you have a family when this came down? 0:04:03.800 --> 0:04:06.320 Yes, my family was in Jersey. I had a daughter. 0:04:06.680 --> 0:04:10.680 This case stems out of a murder that happened in 0:04:10.800 --> 0:04:12.560 nineteen ninety one. And there's a lot of things that 0:04:12.560 --> 0:04:14.680 are unusual about your case. But there are also a 0:04:14.680 --> 0:04:16.240 lot of things that we see that are common in 0:04:16.279 --> 0:04:20.200 wrongful convictions, including a false confession, which I think everyone 0:04:20.320 --> 0:04:24.520 is fascinated by it and terrified of. I know, I am. 0:04:25.080 --> 0:04:27.480 But in your case, this was a murder of a 0:04:27.520 --> 0:04:31.400 guy named Michael Shaw, I think right, Yes, And he 0:04:32.120 --> 0:04:34.400 was a guy who was murdered in nineteen ninety one. 0:04:34.440 --> 0:04:36.839 He was beaten to death by three women. Again pretty 0:04:36.920 --> 0:04:38.960 unusual circumstance. And the reason we know he was beaten 0:04:38.960 --> 0:04:40.680 to death by three women is because he lived long 0:04:40.800 --> 0:04:43.360 enough to tell the tale. He died in the hospital. Yes, 0:04:44.520 --> 0:04:49.039 so originally you were living in the area. Did you 0:04:49.080 --> 0:04:50.000 know about the crime? 0:04:50.720 --> 0:04:53.120 No, not at the time. No, I did not. I 0:04:53.200 --> 0:04:55.240 found out all that information later on. 0:04:55.680 --> 0:04:57.760 And how did you first become aware that this. Did 0:04:57.760 --> 0:04:58.600 you know the victim? 0:04:59.400 --> 0:05:01.679 I didn't know him, per se. 0:05:02.000 --> 0:05:04.240 I just knew that he was like a picture cuss 0:05:04.320 --> 0:05:06.960 man that stayed in the window. He set by the 0:05:06.960 --> 0:05:08.839 window all the time because I used to walk my 0:05:08.880 --> 0:05:09.839 dog around the block. 0:05:10.560 --> 0:05:13.400 But I didn't know his name. I didn't know him. 0:05:13.760 --> 0:05:16.280 From time to time he would ask me to come 0:05:16.279 --> 0:05:17.920 over to the window and would I get him a 0:05:18.000 --> 0:05:20.880 pack of cigarettes, which I did because I walked around 0:05:20.880 --> 0:05:22.520 the block and I walked my dog back and I 0:05:22.640 --> 0:05:23.240 just passed it to. 0:05:23.320 --> 0:05:23.960 Him through the window. 0:05:24.839 --> 0:05:28.039 So he lived on the first floor, Yes, And so 0:05:28.440 --> 0:05:31.480 when he was murdered, the word must have gotten around 0:05:31.520 --> 0:05:34.560 the neighborhood. And you first heard about it from a detective, 0:05:34.640 --> 0:05:35.080 is that right? 0:05:35.360 --> 0:05:35.680 Yes? 0:05:36.080 --> 0:05:38.000 And how'd that come about? Because it's weird because you 0:05:38.000 --> 0:05:42.280 weren't arrested until many years later when the case was cold. 0:05:42.320 --> 0:05:44.840 And then you actually drew a terrible straw or bad 0:05:44.880 --> 0:05:48.279 break what every gonna call it, because you got in 0:05:48.320 --> 0:05:51.160 the crosshairs of a guy who we know now is 0:05:51.200 --> 0:05:54.680 one of the worst detectives in the history of this 0:05:54.760 --> 0:05:57.000 country in terms of the damage that he did to 0:05:57.279 --> 0:06:01.640 an entire burrow. Really, how he wrecked havoc on so 0:06:01.760 --> 0:06:04.080 many people in so many cases, and a whole system. 0:06:04.720 --> 0:06:09.159 So how did it come about that you first encountered detectives, Garcella. 0:06:09.760 --> 0:06:12.679 I believe I was walking my dog at the time, 0:06:12.880 --> 0:06:18.480 and I mean Detective scuss Celliated his partner Shamil approached 0:06:18.480 --> 0:06:21.680 me and asked me about the incident, and I said, 0:06:21.720 --> 0:06:24.160 I didn't know. Actually I didn't even know the man's name. 0:06:25.040 --> 0:06:27.280 I didn't know who he was. I just know him 0:06:27.320 --> 0:06:30.320 by sight, you know, from sitting in the window. That's 0:06:30.360 --> 0:06:33.760 all I knew about this individual. But then later on 0:06:34.240 --> 0:06:38.160 after that incident, I didn't see the man anymore. After 0:06:38.160 --> 0:06:40.080 a while, you know, I was still walk my dog, 0:06:40.200 --> 0:06:43.200 but the man was not there in the window anymore. 0:06:44.279 --> 0:06:47.120 So they approached you on the street, yes, And were 0:06:47.120 --> 0:06:49.280 they friendly? Were they hostel? Did they put you in cops? 0:06:49.400 --> 0:06:49.880 How did this whole? 0:06:50.120 --> 0:06:52.719 They were friendly. They just asked me some questions. 0:06:53.560 --> 0:06:57.320 They also asked me about the same thing that I 0:06:57.400 --> 0:06:59.320 know the man, and I told him I didn't know 0:06:59.360 --> 0:07:02.800 who they were talking about at first. And then when 0:07:02.839 --> 0:07:05.560 they was telling me that he lived there, and I said, oh, yeah, 0:07:05.560 --> 0:07:08.200 I remember seeing the man in the window, but I 0:07:08.240 --> 0:07:09.560 didn't know him per se. 0:07:09.760 --> 0:07:11.080 Did they tell you that he had been murdered. 0:07:11.320 --> 0:07:13.880 No, they didn't state that. They just said something happened. 0:07:13.880 --> 0:07:16.880 It was an incident with this guy. They was trying 0:07:16.880 --> 0:07:19.480 to find out what happened. 0:07:20.520 --> 0:07:23.840 And let's turn to you. So what was going on there? 0:07:24.080 --> 0:07:27.880 First of all, Vanessa was sort of a person that 0:07:27.960 --> 0:07:30.680 you would not really think would be involved in anything 0:07:30.720 --> 0:07:33.040 like this. I mean, and meeting her now, she's such 0:07:33.040 --> 0:07:36.160 a gentle soul. The idea that she would be involved 0:07:36.160 --> 0:07:38.720 in a beating death seems so far fetched. 0:07:38.800 --> 0:07:41.360 I certainly agree with that. But one of the big 0:07:41.400 --> 0:07:46.520 mysteries always in the case was this business about Scarcella 0:07:47.200 --> 0:07:51.360 stopping Vanessa because she was a woman walking a white dog. 0:07:51.960 --> 0:07:56.360 Let me back up, right after mister Shaw was assaulted, 0:07:56.920 --> 0:08:00.360 he didn't die till months later, so it didn't become 0:08:00.400 --> 0:08:06.360 a homicide investigation for about four months time. So immediately 0:08:06.520 --> 0:08:12.240 after the assault, it's basically a robbery investigation. But detectives 0:08:12.320 --> 0:08:17.680 are working the robbery and the beating they're investigating somewhat. 0:08:17.960 --> 0:08:23.280 And those detectives interviewed the super in mister Shaw's building 0:08:23.960 --> 0:08:29.480 twice and memorialized that interview, and the super never said 0:08:29.520 --> 0:08:34.640 anything about Vanessa Gathers. He never described Vanessa Gathers. He 0:08:34.720 --> 0:08:37.720 never said, oh, there's a woman with a white dog 0:08:37.960 --> 0:08:41.240 in the neighborhood who you should talk to. None of 0:08:41.280 --> 0:08:47.080 that is reflected in those interview notes. But Scarcella consistently 0:08:47.240 --> 0:08:52.959 testified that the reason he stopped Vanessa was because after 0:08:53.040 --> 0:08:56.960 mister Shaw died, it did become a homicide investigation, obviously, 0:08:57.520 --> 0:09:01.800 and Scarcella was assigned the case. He testified that one 0:09:01.800 --> 0:09:05.640 of the first things he did was go interview the super. 0:09:06.200 --> 0:09:10.360 He claimed that the super said one of the women 0:09:11.040 --> 0:09:14.280 who used to talk to Shaw and was friendly with 0:09:14.400 --> 0:09:20.600 Shaw was a woman in the neighborhood with a white dog. Now, suspiciously, 0:09:21.160 --> 0:09:27.720 Scarcella never memorialized that interview with the super, as you're 0:09:27.760 --> 0:09:31.320 supposed to do, and as two prior detectives had done 0:09:31.400 --> 0:09:34.560 when they interviewed the super. We always thought it was 0:09:35.000 --> 0:09:39.720 suspicious that there was never any memorialization of that. Why 0:09:39.800 --> 0:09:44.800 he in fact stopped Vanessa, I really don't know. I mean, 0:09:44.960 --> 0:09:47.920 I suppose it's conceivable the super said that, but the 0:09:47.960 --> 0:09:52.439 Super was dead by the time of trial, so no 0:09:52.480 --> 0:09:53.560 one really knows. 0:09:54.280 --> 0:09:57.360 Well, we do know that the victim said that it 0:09:57.400 --> 0:09:59.080 was three women. So the one thing you had in 0:09:59.120 --> 0:10:01.400 common with the perpetrate it was that you were a woman, right, 0:10:01.440 --> 0:10:03.880 But there's a lot of women, so just and we 0:10:03.960 --> 0:10:09.439 know now that Scarcella didn't really care whether you were 0:10:09.480 --> 0:10:13.280 the perpetrator or not. He just cared about getting convictions. 0:10:13.480 --> 0:10:17.040 And he was very good at it actually, I mean 0:10:17.080 --> 0:10:22.760 in a very nefarious and terrible way. He was famous 0:10:23.000 --> 0:10:26.400 actually for solving cases, and that's probably what he was after. 0:10:26.960 --> 0:10:30.400 So he saw you, figured he would stop and talk 0:10:30.440 --> 0:10:32.360 to you, and maybe he was bored, but he had 0:10:32.360 --> 0:10:35.080 nothing else to do. But it came and went right, 0:10:35.160 --> 0:10:37.440 and then you went back to your life, and you know, 0:10:37.520 --> 0:10:40.480 eventually you found out that mister Shaw had died, I'm sure, 0:10:40.520 --> 0:10:42.200 and life went on. 0:10:42.840 --> 0:10:44.640 Well that's basically what happened. 0:10:44.960 --> 0:10:47.960 Well, it was ninety two actually when he came around, 0:10:48.679 --> 0:10:51.440 I think April or May or something of nineteen ninety 0:10:51.440 --> 0:10:55.600 two when he came the initial visit with him, and 0:10:55.640 --> 0:10:58.400 then the next time I saw him was nineteen ninety seven. 0:10:58.480 --> 0:10:59.640 He's knocking on my door. 0:11:00.080 --> 0:11:04.240 He came to your home. Yes, and what transpired next, 0:11:04.240 --> 0:11:06.000 I mean, you had no reason to think that you 0:11:06.000 --> 0:11:08.400 would ever be a suspect in anything like this. No, 0:11:08.520 --> 0:11:10.560 and probably the memory of the whole thing had faded 0:11:10.600 --> 0:11:13.120 to some extent, right because it was one coming. 0:11:13.480 --> 0:11:16.920 I had already forgotten about him and the questioning at 0:11:16.960 --> 0:11:17.440 that time. 0:11:18.040 --> 0:11:20.400 I mean, I'm stayed in the same building. I didn't move. 0:11:20.960 --> 0:11:22.840 If I had anything to hide, I think I would 0:11:22.880 --> 0:11:25.240 have left. I mean, a lot of people in the 0:11:25.280 --> 0:11:27.840 neighborhood moved out, but I was still there. 0:11:28.559 --> 0:11:30.240 So there was no reason for. 0:11:30.160 --> 0:11:34.520 Me to try and run, will do anything negative regard 0:11:34.559 --> 0:11:37.160 in this manner, because I know I had no involvement 0:11:37.200 --> 0:11:37.520 in it. 0:11:37.840 --> 0:11:42.920 One of our hypotheses was that Vanessa was literally the 0:11:42.960 --> 0:11:47.320 only one who had any connection to Shaw who was 0:11:47.360 --> 0:11:51.920 actually still available to Scarcella, still living in the same building. 0:11:52.240 --> 0:11:55.800 So by now it had turned into a homicide investigation. 0:11:55.960 --> 0:11:59.360 Scarcella had decided that he was going to solve a 0:11:59.360 --> 0:12:02.400 cold case, or maybe not, probably many of them. Right. 0:12:02.800 --> 0:12:05.800 So when he did come see you six years after 0:12:06.120 --> 0:12:09.880 the murder, what happened? What was his approach this time? 0:12:10.040 --> 0:12:13.040 Was he friendly? Was he hostile to put you in Coffs? 0:12:13.320 --> 0:12:14.319 He was very friendly. 0:12:14.679 --> 0:12:20.080 I actually was never in Coffs at that time we spoke. 0:12:20.400 --> 0:12:23.200 He asked me saying questions. He asked me, should I 0:12:23.200 --> 0:12:26.960 come to the precinct. You know, I oblige and I 0:12:27.080 --> 0:12:29.760 went there. He showed me some muck shots, and he 0:12:29.840 --> 0:12:32.520 asked me about some of the women in the neighborhood. 0:12:32.520 --> 0:12:33.319 Did I know in them? 0:12:33.360 --> 0:12:36.400 It was a couple that I did see that had 0:12:36.440 --> 0:12:40.600 against criminal records, and that was basically it. He never 0:12:40.720 --> 0:12:44.400 stated to me that I was a suspect or anything. 0:12:44.480 --> 0:12:47.800 I had no knowledge of that up until the time 0:12:47.920 --> 0:12:50.600 that we did. After the polygraph and all of that 0:12:50.679 --> 0:12:54.520 other information that were transpired. He had my history. I 0:12:54.559 --> 0:12:56.920 told him where I was working. You know, he knew 0:12:56.960 --> 0:12:59.280 where I lived. I didn't have anything to hide from 0:12:59.320 --> 0:13:02.520 this spoor for I cooperated the best that I could. 0:13:03.240 --> 0:13:07.560 I was working at the Brooklyn Family Court and he 0:13:07.640 --> 0:13:09.959 picked me up that morning. He came to my job 0:13:10.080 --> 0:13:13.200 and said he wanted me to come take a polygrab chest. 0:13:13.320 --> 0:13:17.040 I went with him and everything. I had nothing to die. 0:13:17.080 --> 0:13:21.560 So after that we stayed at the Priests and all 0:13:21.559 --> 0:13:24.960 of these other things transpired, and he kept stating to 0:13:25.000 --> 0:13:27.400 me that he was going to take me home. It 0:13:27.480 --> 0:13:30.000 got late into the evening before I left the Priests, 0:13:30.040 --> 0:13:32.520 and it was night. It was night when I did 0:13:32.640 --> 0:13:36.199 leave there, and he kept saying that my companion, that 0:13:36.280 --> 0:13:37.400 he would contact him. 0:13:37.720 --> 0:13:42.680 He never did. He just continued, lie, Lie, Lie. He 0:13:43.240 --> 0:13:43.960 was frightening. 0:13:44.080 --> 0:13:46.840 He took his jacket off, he had his gun exposed, 0:13:46.880 --> 0:13:49.160 and he kept on threatening me, saying I was there, 0:13:49.240 --> 0:13:52.559 I was there. I kept telling him no, I wasn't. 0:13:52.840 --> 0:13:54.920 And it just went back and forth like that for 0:13:55.320 --> 0:13:56.040 quite some time. 0:13:56.480 --> 0:14:00.640 So he went sort of progressively from friendly too. You'd 0:14:00.679 --> 0:14:03.640 pick you up, and you probably were like most people. 0:14:03.679 --> 0:14:05.440 I mean, you were law abiding citizen. It wasn't like 0:14:05.440 --> 0:14:06.800 you had a long rap sheet, right. 0:14:07.360 --> 0:14:09.040 I didn't have no knowledge of the law, so he 0:14:09.120 --> 0:14:11.600 and I think he really knew that. So he knew 0:14:12.040 --> 0:14:15.280 because I don't remember him randomizing me or anything. 0:14:15.320 --> 0:14:16.440 I don't remember all of that. 0:14:17.040 --> 0:14:18.920 As far as getting a lawyer, I didn't know I 0:14:18.960 --> 0:14:22.480 needed one because I didn't know I was. I was 0:14:22.880 --> 0:14:26.600 the person that was Choseph had committed this crime. 0:14:26.880 --> 0:14:31.000 Right, and Lisa, That's something that always bothers me is 0:14:31.040 --> 0:14:35.640 that people like Vanessa who are innocent are very likely 0:14:35.680 --> 0:14:39.920 to waive their Miranda rights and speak freely and not 0:14:40.040 --> 0:14:42.640 request a lawyer. And if you're listening to the show. 0:14:42.800 --> 0:14:45.880 Now I'm going to encourage you. If you do get 0:14:45.920 --> 0:14:51.440 picked up, don't assume anything, right, just request a lawyer, 0:14:51.520 --> 0:14:53.840 and other than that, don't say anything other than your name, 0:14:54.080 --> 0:14:58.200 your address, and that's basically it, right, And once you 0:14:58.240 --> 0:14:59.560 ask for a lawyer, they're not allowed to ask you 0:14:59.560 --> 0:15:00.000 more questions. 0:15:00.520 --> 0:15:01.640 That's right, that's right. 0:15:01.840 --> 0:15:03.560 I mean, they may do it anyway, but they'll be 0:15:03.560 --> 0:15:06.400 breaking the law. Yeah, I mean, it is a tragic 0:15:06.480 --> 0:15:09.080 and cruel irony that people like Vanessa who go in 0:15:09.520 --> 0:15:12.800 wanting to help right and wanting to be cooperative and 0:15:12.840 --> 0:15:17.120 good citizens and help the police, end up often really 0:15:17.160 --> 0:15:19.760 on the terribly wrong end of the stick because of 0:15:19.800 --> 0:15:23.080 the fact that they just don't know and they get 0:15:23.120 --> 0:15:25.920 taken advantage of it is exactly what happened here, that's right. 0:15:26.040 --> 0:15:29.680 And one of the issues that we identified with the polygraph, 0:15:29.760 --> 0:15:33.880 which was basically how Scarcela kicked off that morning. With 0:15:33.960 --> 0:15:39.800 the polygraph, a polygrapher is supposed to sit down alone 0:15:40.160 --> 0:15:45.080 with this subject and basically explain to the subject why 0:15:45.120 --> 0:15:48.960 they're there this morning, and for example, to say, do 0:15:49.040 --> 0:15:50.160 you know why you're here? 0:15:50.720 --> 0:15:52.360 You were here because. 0:15:52.040 --> 0:15:56.720 You're suspected of involvement in this incident, and that's what 0:15:56.760 --> 0:15:59.760 I want to talk to you about today. And in fact, 0:16:00.320 --> 0:16:05.000 this particular polygraph never went through that exercise with Vanessa, 0:16:05.120 --> 0:16:08.040 and she didn't know any better. Someone would say, well, 0:16:08.320 --> 0:16:11.600 what do you think when someone's polygraphing you? But Vanessa 0:16:11.920 --> 0:16:14.720 had had no prior experience with us. She was just 0:16:15.200 --> 0:16:17.040 trying to do what they asked her to do. 0:16:17.960 --> 0:16:20.160 And again, if you don't have anything to hide, and 0:16:20.200 --> 0:16:21.840 if you are telling the truth, you'd think, well, why 0:16:21.880 --> 0:16:25.320 shouldn't I take a polygraph? But not such a great idea. Well, 0:16:25.320 --> 0:16:26.920 then we get to the part that gives me a 0:16:26.960 --> 0:16:31.480 stomach ache. Is this whole process that takes place in 0:16:31.520 --> 0:16:35.760 the interrogation room when someone in this case Garcela, but 0:16:35.840 --> 0:16:38.320 it happens all over the country when a detective is 0:16:38.360 --> 0:16:44.040 determined to get a confession, and they're not necessarily determined 0:16:44.080 --> 0:16:46.840 to get the truth. In your case, they had no 0:16:46.960 --> 0:16:49.560 reason to believe that you had any involvement, and yet 0:16:49.600 --> 0:16:54.640 they approached you and interrogated you as if they basically 0:16:54.680 --> 0:16:58.000 had everything in the world, every reason in the world 0:16:58.040 --> 0:17:01.560 to suspect that you were the actual killer. Ultimately, you 0:17:01.680 --> 0:17:03.640 confess to this crime he didn't commit, and That's the 0:17:03.720 --> 0:17:06.440 number one thing, Vanessa. When I talk to people who 0:17:06.480 --> 0:17:10.600 aren't familiar with these issues, everybody says, I would never confess. 0:17:10.880 --> 0:17:13.080 They couldn't get me to do it. That's crazy. I'm 0:17:13.119 --> 0:17:16.320 too strong, I'm tough. I would never con that's you know. 0:17:16.600 --> 0:17:19.600 And I'm like, well, let me tell you something. So 0:17:19.720 --> 0:17:22.160 how did they get you? I mean, you're an intelligent woman, 0:17:22.560 --> 0:17:24.879 you're a law abiding person. You would know enough to 0:17:24.960 --> 0:17:28.000 know that that's a disaster, right, But you did it? 0:17:28.359 --> 0:17:29.080 Yes, I did. 0:17:29.640 --> 0:17:33.800 You're in a tiny room with these two police detectives 0:17:34.119 --> 0:17:35.679 and you don't even know your rights. 0:17:35.800 --> 0:17:37.639 I didn't know. I was terrified. 0:17:38.359 --> 0:17:42.520 And then the badgering started and the jacket came off, 0:17:42.600 --> 0:17:43.800 like I said, expose it. 0:17:43.840 --> 0:17:44.800 And he started. 0:17:44.480 --> 0:17:48.520 Threatening me and leaning over her and you know, making 0:17:48.560 --> 0:17:52.040 all of these accusations and stuff. And I continually told 0:17:52.119 --> 0:17:54.760 him that I did not commit this crime. 0:17:54.880 --> 0:17:55.840 I was not there. 0:17:56.240 --> 0:17:59.320 And when he wrote the statement, I told him we 0:17:59.400 --> 0:18:01.320 were going back for us. He's trying to tell me 0:18:01.400 --> 0:18:03.240 to state this and state that. 0:18:03.359 --> 0:18:04.560 This must have been confusing. 0:18:05.000 --> 0:18:07.679 It was because I'm like, I'm not understanding what is 0:18:07.760 --> 0:18:10.800 going on as far as what he's writing on paper. 0:18:10.840 --> 0:18:14.159 He tried to get me to write that statement, and 0:18:14.200 --> 0:18:16.240 I said, I'm not writing anything because I don't know 0:18:16.280 --> 0:18:16.760 what happened. 0:18:16.880 --> 0:18:18.800 This is part of the process, right, And it's the 0:18:18.880 --> 0:18:22.600 crazy thing in this country that police are allowed to lie. 0:18:22.800 --> 0:18:24.760 They can say they have a satellite image of you 0:18:24.800 --> 0:18:27.280 committing the crime. They can say that they found your fingerprints, 0:18:27.280 --> 0:18:29.359 they can say that they have witnesses. They can say 0:18:29.600 --> 0:18:32.560 almost anything they want. What they can't say is they 0:18:32.560 --> 0:18:34.920 can't threaten you with say you're going to get the 0:18:34.960 --> 0:18:37.080 death penalty if you're not. There's certain things they can't 0:18:37.080 --> 0:18:39.760 do like that. But as far as the facts surrounding 0:18:39.760 --> 0:18:41.560 the case, they can lie all they want, which I 0:18:41.600 --> 0:18:43.320 think is crazy, and it doesn't it's not that way 0:18:43.320 --> 0:18:45.080 in most other Western European countries. 0:18:44.760 --> 0:18:47.399 Are oh, Jason. The reason they do that is to 0:18:47.440 --> 0:18:53.160 put the subject in a helpless feeling situation so then 0:18:53.520 --> 0:18:55.880 they can get them to turn and do what they 0:18:55.880 --> 0:18:59.280 want to do. They make you feel helpless and then 0:18:59.320 --> 0:19:03.360 they extend and olive branch. Just sign this and I'll 0:19:03.400 --> 0:19:06.520 take you home. Just help me out here, I'll get 0:19:06.560 --> 0:19:09.360 you out of here. But the first thing is making 0:19:09.520 --> 0:19:12.360 the subject feel helpless, and they do that with these 0:19:12.359 --> 0:19:13.520 false s, evenence ploys. 0:19:13.880 --> 0:19:16.120 So which lies did they tell you? 0:19:16.359 --> 0:19:20.040 Well, he told me that he had fingerprints, Yeah, eyewitnesses. 0:19:21.160 --> 0:19:23.760 He has proof that I was in the house. And 0:19:23.800 --> 0:19:27.240 I kept telling him, no, that's not true. And to me, 0:19:27.440 --> 0:19:30.080 it's like now getting confused because I'm saying, there's no 0:19:30.119 --> 0:19:33.280 way possible that this could be. But you know, he 0:19:33.440 --> 0:19:38.520 continued to tell me different stories and different things that well, 0:19:38.800 --> 0:19:40.960 at that point, he said, you might be going to jail. 0:19:41.640 --> 0:19:43.480 These are the things that would happen to you once 0:19:43.520 --> 0:19:46.159 you get there. You need to sign this paper that 0:19:46.240 --> 0:19:49.760 he wrote, and he said, I'll take you home. So 0:19:49.880 --> 0:19:52.399 I'm constantly like, I don't know what to do. Now 0:19:52.440 --> 0:19:56.240 I'm here by myself in his little room and I'm crying, 0:19:56.720 --> 0:20:00.240 I'm set, I'm hysterical. And he kept stating to me, 0:20:00.320 --> 0:20:01.879 I'm going to let you call home. I said, I 0:20:01.920 --> 0:20:05.080 want to call home. I felt that if I called 0:20:05.080 --> 0:20:07.200 my friend maybe he would give me some information. 0:20:07.359 --> 0:20:10.359 What should I do? He denied my phone. 0:20:10.080 --> 0:20:13.639 Calls because I constantly told him I would like to 0:20:13.640 --> 0:20:15.840 call home. He said, well, when we finished, you could 0:20:15.880 --> 0:20:18.760 call home. I'll call I'll have his partner call let 0:20:18.840 --> 0:20:21.280 him know where I'm at I'm saying because at this 0:20:21.320 --> 0:20:25.399 point of the day, I should be home, which I wasn't. 0:20:25.480 --> 0:20:28.959 So now my companion had no idea where I was 0:20:29.720 --> 0:20:31.560 or what happened to me at all. 0:20:32.320 --> 0:20:34.720 Yeah, so all of this just adds to the stress 0:20:34.960 --> 0:20:38.320 and confusion and terror. It's really terror, right that you're 0:20:38.359 --> 0:20:41.040 experiencing at this point, because you don't know what these 0:20:41.040 --> 0:20:44.920 guys are capable of, and you know there's nobody but you, 0:20:45.040 --> 0:20:49.479 and you're overmatched. You are really helpless. I mean, they 0:20:49.520 --> 0:20:52.119 won't let you in many cases, they won't give you 0:20:52.160 --> 0:20:54.760 any food, any water. You're just going to sit there 0:20:54.800 --> 0:20:56.280 and they go in and they go out, and they 0:20:56.280 --> 0:21:00.199 have this all. It's a whole protocol is designed to 0:21:00.240 --> 0:21:02.480 do exactly what it did, which is to get you 0:21:02.600 --> 0:21:06.800 to be willing to do basically anything and confess to anything. Right. 0:21:07.760 --> 0:21:10.000 What's crazy on top of all the rest of this 0:21:10.800 --> 0:21:16.760 is that they were not only committing an act of evil, right, 0:21:16.800 --> 0:21:20.320 which is knowingly extracted a confession from a person that 0:21:21.320 --> 0:21:25.520 they had every indication was innocent of the crime, but 0:21:25.720 --> 0:21:29.280