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Speaker 1: I fell into the hands of a corrupt detective.

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Speaker 2: I was naive enough to believe that I would be

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Speaker 2: able to just present all of my proof of actual innocence,

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Speaker 2: that they would investigate adequately, and so that I wouldn't

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Speaker 2: be going to prison because I was a good person.

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Speaker 2: I hadn't done anything wrong.

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Speaker 1: In the back of your mind, you say, well, when

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Speaker 1: we go to a hearing or we go to court,

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Speaker 1: the truth will come out. The prosecution from day one

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Speaker 1: knew I was innocent and let forced testimony go uncorrected

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Speaker 1: from the lower courts all the way up to the

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Speaker 1: United States Supreme Court.

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Speaker 3: You have someone with a badge with ultimate and really,

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Speaker 3: in that moment, unchecked authority.

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Speaker 2: Don't presume that people are guilty when you see them

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Speaker 2: on TV, because it may just be a dirty da

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Speaker 2: that is trying to rise upward.

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Speaker 4: This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with

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Speaker 4: Jason Flamm. Today, I have two very special guests, and

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Speaker 4: you'll learn more about that surely, but first I'm going

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Speaker 4: to introduce them. Vanessa Gathers is our star today.

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Speaker 3: Just months after the Crown Heights riots back in nineteen

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Speaker 3: ninety one, Gathers was called in for questioning for robbery

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Speaker 3: and the beating of an elderly man inside of his

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Speaker 3: Crown Heights apartment. The victim fell into a coma then died.

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Speaker 3: The case was classified a homicide. That's when controversial former

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Speaker 3: NYPD detective Louis Scarcella took over the case. Five years later,

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Speaker 3: Scarcella reinterviewed Gathers and said she made a full confession.

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Speaker 3: Gathers was convicted on that confession alone. The former detective

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Speaker 3: is in the middle of several cases where people went

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Speaker 3: to prison for crimes they did not commit.

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Speaker 2: D A.

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Speaker 3: Thompson and his team have already exonerated seventeen men. Gathers

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Speaker 3: is the eighteenth, the first woman. Right now, the DA's

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Speaker 3: office is looking into at least one hundred other cases.

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Speaker 3: Fifty eight year old Vanessa Gatherers, who will no longer

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Speaker 3: be labeled a convicted felon after ten years in prison

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Speaker 3: for manslaughter, Brooklyn District Attorney Ken Thompson is expected to

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Speaker 3: vacate her conviction.

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Speaker 5: We're going to take a step to not only vacate

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Speaker 5: misgathers conviction, but to give her her good name back.

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Speaker 4: Vanessa, welcome to the show. Thank you, and her badass

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Speaker 4: attorney is here as well. Lisa Cahill, Welcome to Ronful Conviction.

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Speaker 6: Happy to be here.

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Speaker 4: So, Vanessa, let's go back to when life was simpler, right,

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Speaker 4: because before this crazy incident happened, you were living basically

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Speaker 4: a normal life like anyone else. Right. Yes, were you

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Speaker 4: in a lot of trouble with the laws? Reason that

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Speaker 4: they would have ever suspected you of being involved in

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Speaker 4: a cold blooded murder, a terrible beating death, not at all?

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Speaker 4: What were you doing? What was your life like? Where'd

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Speaker 4: you grow up?

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Speaker 5: I grew up in Jersey City, in North Carolina, and

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Speaker 5: then I moved to New York in seventy nine and

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Speaker 5: I started working. I was working in Manhattan doing what

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Speaker 5: I worked for, Gristities. I worked for a lawyer when

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Speaker 5: I first arrived to New York City, So.

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Speaker 4: Just finding your way doing different jobs whatever.

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Speaker 7: I stayed with Gristities for quite some time.

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Speaker 5: The original job I had was working for a lawyer,

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Speaker 5: a criminal lawyer, and I was just doing statements of

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Speaker 5: fouling and typing up notes. Things got slow, so later

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Speaker 5: on I found a job with Cristiitis. He let me

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Speaker 5: stay until I found something better.

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Speaker 4: So you came to New York, like most people do.

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Speaker 4: I guess, to pursue your dreams and find your way.

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Speaker 4: And you were finding your way, things were going okay.

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Speaker 4: Do you have a family when this came down?

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Speaker 7: Yes, my family was in Jersey. I had a daughter.

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Speaker 4: This case stems out of a murder that happened in

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Speaker 4: nineteen ninety one. And there's a lot of things that

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Speaker 4: are unusual about your case. But there are also a

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Speaker 4: lot of things that we see that are common in

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Speaker 4: wrongful convictions, including a false confession, which I think everyone

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Speaker 4: is fascinated by it and terrified of. I know, I am.

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Speaker 4: But in your case, this was a murder of a

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Speaker 4: guy named Michael Shaw, I think right, Yes, And he

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Speaker 4: was a guy who was murdered in nineteen ninety one.

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Speaker 4: He was beaten to death by three women. Again pretty

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Speaker 4: unusual circumstance. And the reason we know he was beaten

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Speaker 4: to death by three women is because he lived long

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Speaker 4: enough to tell the tale. He died in the hospital. Yes,

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Speaker 4: so originally you were living in the area. Did you

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Speaker 4: know about the crime?

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Speaker 7: No, not at the time. No, I did not. I

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Speaker 7: found out all that information later on.

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Speaker 4: And how did you first become aware that this. Did

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Speaker 4: you know the victim?

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Speaker 7: I didn't know him, per se.

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Speaker 5: I just knew that he was like a picture cuss

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Speaker 5: man that stayed in the window. He set by the

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Speaker 5: window all the time because I used to walk my

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Speaker 5: dog around the block.

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Speaker 7: But I didn't know his name. I didn't know him.

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Speaker 5: From time to time he would ask me to come

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Speaker 5: over to the window and would I get him a

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Speaker 5: pack of cigarettes, which I did because I walked around

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Speaker 5: the block and I walked my dog back and I

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Speaker 5: just passed it to.

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Speaker 7: Him through the window.

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Speaker 4: So he lived on the first floor, Yes, And so

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Speaker 4: when he was murdered, the word must have gotten around

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Speaker 4: the neighborhood. And you first heard about it from a detective,

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Speaker 4: is that right?

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Speaker 7: Yes?

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Speaker 4: And how'd that come about? Because it's weird because you

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Speaker 4: weren't arrested until many years later when the case was cold.

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Speaker 4: And then you actually drew a terrible straw or bad

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Speaker 4: break what every gonna call it, because you got in

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Speaker 4: the crosshairs of a guy who we know now is

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Speaker 4: one of the worst detectives in the history of this

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Speaker 4: country in terms of the damage that he did to

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Speaker 4: an entire burrow. Really, how he wrecked havoc on so

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Speaker 4: many people in so many cases, and a whole system.

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Speaker 4: So how did it come about that you first encountered detectives, Garcella.

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Speaker 5: I believe I was walking my dog at the time,

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Speaker 5: and I mean Detective scuss Celliated his partner Shamil approached

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Speaker 5: me and asked me about the incident, and I said,

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Speaker 5: I didn't know. Actually I didn't even know the man's name.

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Speaker 5: I didn't know who he was. I just know him

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Speaker 5: by sight, you know, from sitting in the window. That's

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Speaker 5: all I knew about this individual. But then later on

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Speaker 5: after that incident, I didn't see the man anymore. After

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Speaker 5: a while, you know, I was still walk my dog,

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Speaker 5: but the man was not there in the window anymore.

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Speaker 4: So they approached you on the street, yes, And were

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Speaker 4: they friendly? Were they hostel? Did they put you in cops?

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Speaker 4: How did this whole?

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Speaker 7: They were friendly. They just asked me some questions.

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Speaker 5: They also asked me about the same thing that I

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Speaker 5: know the man, and I told him I didn't know

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Speaker 5: who they were talking about at first. And then when

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Speaker 5: they was telling me that he lived there, and I said, oh, yeah,

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Speaker 5: I remember seeing the man in the window, but I

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Speaker 5: didn't know him per se.

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Speaker 4: Did they tell you that he had been murdered.

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Speaker 5: No, they didn't state that. They just said something happened.

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Speaker 5: It was an incident with this guy. They was trying

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Speaker 5: to find out what happened.

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Speaker 4: And let's turn to you. So what was going on there?

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Speaker 4: First of all, Vanessa was sort of a person that

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Speaker 4: you would not really think would be involved in anything

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Speaker 4: like this. I mean, and meeting her now, she's such

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Speaker 4: a gentle soul. The idea that she would be involved

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Speaker 4: in a beating death seems so far fetched.

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Speaker 6: I certainly agree with that. But one of the big

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Speaker 6: mysteries always in the case was this business about Scarcella

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Speaker 6: stopping Vanessa because she was a woman walking a white dog.

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Speaker 6: Let me back up, right after mister Shaw was assaulted,

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Speaker 6: he didn't die till months later, so it didn't become

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Speaker 6: a homicide investigation for about four months time. So immediately

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Speaker 6: after the assault, it's basically a robbery investigation. But detectives

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Speaker 6: are working the robbery and the beating they're investigating somewhat.

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Speaker 6: And those detectives interviewed the super in mister Shaw's building

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Speaker 6: twice and memorialized that interview, and the super never said

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Speaker 6: anything about Vanessa Gathers. He never described Vanessa Gathers. He

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Speaker 6: never said, oh, there's a woman with a white dog

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Speaker 6: in the neighborhood who you should talk to. None of

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Speaker 6: that is reflected in those interview notes. But Scarcella consistently

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Speaker 6: testified that the reason he stopped Vanessa was because after

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Speaker 6: mister Shaw died, it did become a homicide investigation, obviously,

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Speaker 6: and Scarcella was assigned the case. He testified that one

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Speaker 6: of the first things he did was go interview the super.

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Speaker 6: He claimed that the super said one of the women

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Speaker 6: who used to talk to Shaw and was friendly with

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Speaker 6: Shaw was a woman in the neighborhood with a white dog. Now, suspiciously,

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Speaker 6: Scarcella never memorialized that interview with the super, as you're

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Speaker 6: supposed to do, and as two prior detectives had done

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Speaker 6: when they interviewed the super. We always thought it was

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Speaker 6: suspicious that there was never any memorialization of that. Why

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Speaker 6: he in fact stopped Vanessa, I really don't know. I mean,

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Speaker 6: I suppose it's conceivable the super said that, but the

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Speaker 6: Super was dead by the time of trial, so no

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Speaker 6: one really knows.

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Speaker 4: Well, we do know that the victim said that it

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Speaker 4: was three women. So the one thing you had in

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Speaker 4: common with the perpetrate it was that you were a woman, right,

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Speaker 4: But there's a lot of women, so just and we

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Speaker 4: know now that Scarcella didn't really care whether you were

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Speaker 4: the perpetrator or not. He just cared about getting convictions.

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Speaker 4: And he was very good at it actually, I mean

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Speaker 4: in a very nefarious and terrible way. He was famous

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Speaker 4: actually for solving cases, and that's probably what he was after.

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Speaker 4: So he saw you, figured he would stop and talk

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Speaker 4: to you, and maybe he was bored, but he had

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Speaker 4: nothing else to do. But it came and went right,

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Speaker 4: and then you went back to your life, and you know,

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Speaker 4: eventually you found out that mister Shaw had died, I'm sure,

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Speaker 4: and life went on.

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Speaker 7: Well that's basically what happened.

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Speaker 5: Well, it was ninety two actually when he came around,

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Speaker 5: I think April or May or something of nineteen ninety

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Speaker 5: two when he came the initial visit with him, and

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Speaker 5: then the next time I saw him was nineteen ninety seven.

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Speaker 5: He's knocking on my door.

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Speaker 4: He came to your home. Yes, and what transpired next,

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Speaker 4: I mean, you had no reason to think that you

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Speaker 4: would ever be a suspect in anything like this. No,

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Speaker 4: and probably the memory of the whole thing had faded

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Speaker 4: to some extent, right because it was one coming.

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Speaker 5: I had already forgotten about him and the questioning at

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Speaker 5: that time.

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Speaker 7: I mean, I'm stayed in the same building. I didn't move.

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Speaker 5: If I had anything to hide, I think I would

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Speaker 5: have left. I mean, a lot of people in the

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Speaker 5: neighborhood moved out, but I was still there.

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Speaker 7: So there was no reason for.

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Speaker 5: Me to try and run, will do anything negative regard

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Speaker 5: in this manner, because I know I had no involvement

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Speaker 5: in it.

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Speaker 6: One of our hypotheses was that Vanessa was literally the

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Speaker 6: only one who had any connection to Shaw who was

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Speaker 6: actually still available to Scarcella, still living in the same building.

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Speaker 4: So by now it had turned into a homicide investigation.

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Speaker 4: Scarcella had decided that he was going to solve a

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Speaker 4: cold case, or maybe not, probably many of them. Right.

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Speaker 4: So when he did come see you six years after

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Speaker 4: the murder, what happened? What was his approach this time?

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Speaker 4: Was he friendly? Was he hostile to put you in Coffs?

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Speaker 7: He was very friendly.

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Speaker 5: I actually was never in Coffs at that time we spoke.

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Speaker 5: He asked me saying questions. He asked me, should I

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Speaker 5: come to the precinct. You know, I oblige and I

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Speaker 5: went there. He showed me some muck shots, and he

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Speaker 5: asked me about some of the women in the neighborhood.

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Speaker 7: Did I know in them?

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Speaker 5: It was a couple that I did see that had

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Speaker 5: against criminal records, and that was basically it. He never

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Speaker 5: stated to me that I was a suspect or anything.

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Speaker 5: I had no knowledge of that up until the time

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Speaker 5: that we did. After the polygraph and all of that

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Speaker 5: other information that were transpired. He had my history. I

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Speaker 5: told him where I was working. You know, he knew

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Speaker 5: where I lived. I didn't have anything to hide from

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Speaker 5: this spoor for I cooperated the best that I could.

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Speaker 5: I was working at the Brooklyn Family Court and he

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Speaker 5: picked me up that morning. He came to my job

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Speaker 5: and said he wanted me to come take a polygrab chest.

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Speaker 5: I went with him and everything. I had nothing to die.

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Speaker 5: So after that we stayed at the Priests and all

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Speaker 5: of these other things transpired, and he kept stating to

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Speaker 5: me that he was going to take me home. It

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Speaker 5: got late into the evening before I left the Priests,

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Speaker 5: and it was night. It was night when I did

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Speaker 5: leave there, and he kept saying that my companion, that

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Speaker 5: he would contact him.

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Speaker 7: He never did. He just continued, lie, Lie, Lie. He

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Speaker 7: was frightening.

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Speaker 5: He took his jacket off, he had his gun exposed,

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Speaker 5: and he kept on threatening me, saying I was there,

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Speaker 5: I was there. I kept telling him no, I wasn't.

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Speaker 5: And it just went back and forth like that for

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Speaker 5: quite some time.

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Speaker 4: So he went sort of progressively from friendly too. You'd

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Speaker 4: pick you up, and you probably were like most people.

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Speaker 4: I mean, you were law abiding citizen. It wasn't like

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Speaker 4: you had a long rap sheet, right.

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Speaker 5: I didn't have no knowledge of the law, so he

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Speaker 5: and I think he really knew that. So he knew

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Speaker 5: because I don't remember him randomizing me or anything.

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Speaker 7: I don't remember all of that.

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Speaker 5: As far as getting a lawyer, I didn't know I

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Speaker 5: needed one because I didn't know I was. I was

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Speaker 5: the person that was Choseph had committed this crime.

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Speaker 4: Right, and Lisa, That's something that always bothers me is

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Speaker 4: that people like Vanessa who are innocent are very likely

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Speaker 4: to waive their Miranda rights and speak freely and not

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Speaker 4: request a lawyer. And if you're listening to the show.

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Speaker 4: Now I'm going to encourage you. If you do get

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Speaker 4: picked up, don't assume anything, right, just request a lawyer,

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Speaker 4: and other than that, don't say anything other than your name,

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Speaker 4: your address, and that's basically it, right, And once you

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Speaker 4: ask for a lawyer, they're not allowed to ask you

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Speaker 4: more questions.

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Speaker 7: That's right, that's right.

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Speaker 4: I mean, they may do it anyway, but they'll be

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Speaker 4: breaking the law. Yeah, I mean, it is a tragic

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Speaker 4: and cruel irony that people like Vanessa who go in

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Speaker 4: wanting to help right and wanting to be cooperative and

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Speaker 4: good citizens and help the police, end up often really

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Speaker 4: on the terribly wrong end of the stick because of

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Speaker 4: the fact that they just don't know and they get

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Speaker 4: taken advantage of it is exactly what happened here, that's right.

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Speaker 6: And one of the issues that we identified with the polygraph,

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Speaker 6: which was basically how Scarcela kicked off that morning. With

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Speaker 6: the polygraph, a polygrapher is supposed to sit down alone

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Speaker 6: with this subject and basically explain to the subject why

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Speaker 6: they're there this morning, and for example, to say, do

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Speaker 6: you know why you're here?

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Speaker 7: You were here because.

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Speaker 6: You're suspected of involvement in this incident, and that's what

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Speaker 6: I want to talk to you about today. And in fact,

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Speaker 6: this particular polygraph never went through that exercise with Vanessa,

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Speaker 6: and she didn't know any better. Someone would say, well,

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Speaker 6: what do you think when someone's polygraphing you? But Vanessa

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Speaker 6: had had no prior experience with us. She was just

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Speaker 6: trying to do what they asked her to do.

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Speaker 4: And again, if you don't have anything to hide, and

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Speaker 4: if you are telling the truth, you'd think, well, why

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Speaker 4: shouldn't I take a polygraph? But not such a great idea. Well,

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Speaker 4: then we get to the part that gives me a

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Speaker 4: stomach ache. Is this whole process that takes place in

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Speaker 4: the interrogation room when someone in this case Garcela, but

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Speaker 4: it happens all over the country when a detective is

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Speaker 4: determined to get a confession, and they're not necessarily determined

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Speaker 4: to get the truth. In your case, they had no

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Speaker 4: reason to believe that you had any involvement, and yet

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Speaker 4: they approached you and interrogated you as if they basically

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Speaker 4: had everything in the world, every reason in the world

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Speaker 4: to suspect that you were the actual killer. Ultimately, you

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Speaker 4: confess to this crime he didn't commit, and That's the

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Speaker 4: number one thing, Vanessa. When I talk to people who

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Speaker 4: aren't familiar with these issues, everybody says, I would never confess.

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Speaker 4: They couldn't get me to do it. That's crazy. I'm

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Speaker 4: too strong, I'm tough. I would never con that's you know.

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Speaker 4: And I'm like, well, let me tell you something. So

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Speaker 4: how did they get you? I mean, you're an intelligent woman,

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Speaker 4: you're a law abiding person. You would know enough to

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Speaker 4: know that that's a disaster, right, But you did it?

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Speaker 7: Yes, I did.

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Speaker 5: You're in a tiny room with these two police detectives

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Speaker 5: and you don't even know your rights.

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Speaker 7: I didn't know. I was terrified.

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Speaker 5: And then the badgering started and the jacket came off,

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Speaker 5: like I said, expose it.

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Speaker 7: And he started.

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Speaker 5: Threatening me and leaning over her and you know, making

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Speaker 5: all of these accusations and stuff. And I continually told

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Speaker 5: him that I did not commit this crime.

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Speaker 7: I was not there.

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Speaker 5: And when he wrote the statement, I told him we

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Speaker 5: were going back for us. He's trying to tell me

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Speaker 5: to state this and state that.

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Speaker 4: This must have been confusing.

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Speaker 5: It was because I'm like, I'm not understanding what is

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Speaker 5: going on as far as what he's writing on paper.

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Speaker 5: He tried to get me to write that statement, and

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Speaker 5: I said, I'm not writing anything because I don't know

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Speaker 5: what happened.

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Speaker 4: This is part of the process, right, And it's the

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Speaker 4: crazy thing in this country that police are allowed to lie.

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Speaker 4: They can say they have a satellite image of you

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Speaker 4: committing the crime. They can say that they found your fingerprints,

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Speaker 4: they can say that they have witnesses. They can say

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Speaker 4: almost anything they want. What they can't say is they

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Speaker 4: can't threaten you with say you're going to get the

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Speaker 4: death penalty if you're not. There's certain things they can't

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Speaker 4: do like that. But as far as the facts surrounding

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Speaker 4: the case, they can lie all they want, which I

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Speaker 4: think is crazy, and it doesn't it's not that way

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Speaker 4: in most other Western European countries.

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Speaker 6: Are oh, Jason. The reason they do that is to

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Speaker 6: put the subject in a helpless feeling situation so then

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Speaker 6: they can get them to turn and do what they

355
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Speaker 6: want to do. They make you feel helpless and then

356
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Speaker 6: they extend and olive branch. Just sign this and I'll

357
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Speaker 6: take you home. Just help me out here, I'll get

358
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Speaker 6: you out of here. But the first thing is making

359
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Speaker 6: the subject feel helpless, and they do that with these

360
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Speaker 6: false s, evenence ploys.

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Speaker 4: So which lies did they tell you?

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Speaker 5: Well, he told me that he had fingerprints, Yeah, eyewitnesses.

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Speaker 5: He has proof that I was in the house. And

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Speaker 5: I kept telling him, no, that's not true. And to me,

365
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Speaker 5: it's like now getting confused because I'm saying, there's no

366
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Speaker 5: way possible that this could be. But you know, he

367
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Speaker 5: continued to tell me different stories and different things that well,

368
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Speaker 5: at that point, he said, you might be going to jail.

369
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Speaker 5: These are the things that would happen to you once

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Speaker 5: you get there. You need to sign this paper that

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Speaker 5: he wrote, and he said, I'll take you home. So

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Speaker 5: I'm constantly like, I don't know what to do. Now

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Speaker 5: I'm here by myself in his little room and I'm crying,

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Speaker 5: I'm set, I'm hysterical. And he kept stating to me,

375
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Speaker 5: I'm going to let you call home. I said, I

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Speaker 5: want to call home. I felt that if I called

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Speaker 5: my friend maybe he would give me some information.

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Speaker 7: What should I do? He denied my phone.

379
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Speaker 5: Calls because I constantly told him I would like to

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Speaker 5: call home. He said, well, when we finished, you could

381
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Speaker 5: call home. I'll call I'll have his partner call let

382
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Speaker 5: him know where I'm at I'm saying because at this

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Speaker 5: point of the day, I should be home, which I wasn't.

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Speaker 5: So now my companion had no idea where I was

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Speaker 5: or what happened to me at all.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, so all of this just adds to the stress

387
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Speaker 4: and confusion and terror. It's really terror, right that you're

388
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Speaker 4: experiencing at this point, because you don't know what these

389
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Speaker 4: guys are capable of, and you know there's nobody but you,

390
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Speaker 4: and you're overmatched. You are really helpless. I mean, they

391
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Speaker 4: won't let you in many cases, they won't give you

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Speaker 4: any food, any water. You're just going to sit there

393
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Speaker 4: and they go in and they go out, and they

394
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Speaker 4: have this all. It's a whole protocol is designed to

395
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Speaker 4: do exactly what it did, which is to get you

396
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Speaker 4: to be willing to do basically anything and confess to anything. Right.

397
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Speaker 4: What's crazy on top of all the rest of this

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Speaker 4: is that they were not only committing an act of evil, right,

399
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Speaker 4: which is knowingly extracted a confession from a person that

400
00:21:21,320 --> 00:21:25,520
Speaker 4: they had every indication was innocent of the crime, but

401
00:21:25,720 --> 00:21:29,280
Speaker 4: also they were sloppy. And why I say that is

402
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Speaker 4: because the confession that you signed didn't make any sense

403
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Speaker 4: because the facts that were on that piece of paper

404
00:21:35,840 --> 00:21:39,480
Speaker 4: didn't match the evidence from the case. Right. They got

405
00:21:39,520 --> 00:21:41,920
Speaker 4: you to say that he was in a wheelchair, which

406
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Speaker 4: he wasn't, that it was a robbery of sixty dollars,

407
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Speaker 4: which would find out later that the guy probably didn't

408
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Speaker 4: have sixty dollars. There was a number of other facts

409
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Speaker 4: in there that were just wrong. And that's so weird

410
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Speaker 4: because I don't know. At least it seems to me,

411
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Speaker 4: if you were doing this, you would at least try

412
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Speaker 4: to get someone to sign a confess that's accurate to

413
00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:03,280
Speaker 4: the facts of the case. But they didn't even bother

414
00:22:03,359 --> 00:22:04,720
Speaker 4: to do that. That's right.

415
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Speaker 6: And one of the interesting things here was that there

416
00:22:07,880 --> 00:22:13,120
Speaker 6: were really two confession statements. One was the handwritten statement

417
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Speaker 6: which Scarcella himself wrote out and Vanessa merely signed, and

418
00:22:18,080 --> 00:22:21,119
Speaker 6: this was consistent with protocol at the time. There was

419
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Speaker 6: a video restatement of the confession and that is led

420
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Speaker 6: by an assistant district attorney with Scarcella in the room. Now,

421
00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:38,160
Speaker 6: Scarcella could not control the questioning by the assistant district attorney.

422
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Speaker 6: Vanessa testified that they basically rehearsed, and Scarcella told her

423
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Speaker 6: what to say in the video, but he could not

424
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Speaker 6: control some of the questions and the ADA, for example, asked,

425
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Speaker 6: was the old man standing?

426
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Speaker 7: Was he sitting?

427
00:22:56,520 --> 00:23:00,040
Speaker 6: And Vanessa said he was sitting, and he said, so

428
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Speaker 6: what was he sitting in? And Scarcella had not researched

429
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Speaker 6: was there ever a wheelchair in the apartment, because Vanessa

430
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Speaker 6: then guessed she said he was sitting in a wheelchair.

431
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Speaker 4: Because he was old. So that might have made sense, right,

432
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Speaker 4: but it's.

433
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Speaker 6: Not true, and so there was a gotcha for us

434
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Speaker 6: as the defense team. That was a great mistake in

435
00:23:24,840 --> 00:23:27,800
Speaker 6: the confession which we could use to prove it was coerced.

436
00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:33,000
Speaker 6: And the caine. The ADA asked what kind of cain

437
00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:37,600
Speaker 6: was used to hit mister Shaw, and Vanessa again guessed

438
00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:41,159
Speaker 6: because she had no idea. She guessed that it was

439
00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:44,840
Speaker 6: a wooden cane. In fact, it was a metal cane.

440
00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:48,520
Speaker 6: So that's how some of these mistakes came in, is

441
00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:53,119
Speaker 6: that Scarcella could not control the ADA and his questioning.

442
00:23:53,480 --> 00:24:05,680
Speaker 6: Thank god, because otherwise we might not have caught these mistakes.

443
00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:14,240
Speaker 4: So ultimately you end up going to trial, but before

444
00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:16,440
Speaker 4: you get to trial, they held you in Rykers Island

445
00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:19,520
Speaker 4: for thirteen months. Yes, how terrifying.

446
00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:26,160
Speaker 7: Is that very very terrifying. But prior to me getting there, after.

447
00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:30,000
Speaker 5: All of the confession and everything, they still never told

448
00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:32,720
Speaker 5: me I was being arrested for the crime. They bypassed

449
00:24:32,720 --> 00:24:34,880
Speaker 5: my house. They still stated to me that they were

450
00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:39,360
Speaker 5: taking me home. And we got to the precinct. I said,

451
00:24:39,359 --> 00:24:41,199
Speaker 5: why didn't you pass my house or we have to

452
00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:44,800
Speaker 5: make one more stop. This is still lives And we

453
00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:47,119
Speaker 5: got to the precinct and at that point then he

454
00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:48,359
Speaker 5: said he had to handcuff me.

455
00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:49,399
Speaker 7: I was never cuffed.

456
00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:53,920
Speaker 5: I was never told I was arrested and they had

457
00:24:53,920 --> 00:24:57,119
Speaker 5: to cuff me to take me into that building, which

458
00:24:57,280 --> 00:25:00,879
Speaker 5: was Central Booking. I didn't even know that. And then

459
00:25:00,920 --> 00:25:04,320
Speaker 5: I was put in the cage and I just stayed

460
00:25:04,359 --> 00:25:07,919
Speaker 5: there until they said I was supposed to see a

461
00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:10,480
Speaker 5: judge or whatever I had to. It was all a

462
00:25:10,520 --> 00:25:14,040
Speaker 5: blur because I don't recall all of that that happened.

463
00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:14,359
Speaker 7: At that time.

464
00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:18,320
Speaker 5: And the next day I guess that I was on

465
00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:22,359
Speaker 5: the bus going to Riker's Island and up on my rival.

466
00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:25,359
Speaker 5: You know, they do the strips, serge your nackad You're

467
00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:27,920
Speaker 5: walking around in the sheet in the cage with a

468
00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:33,160
Speaker 5: whole bunch of people, other women, and you know, and

469
00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:36,920
Speaker 5: then you put into a cell. And at that time

470
00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:39,840
Speaker 5: when they put me to a housing unit, I was

471
00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:42,720
Speaker 5: able to call home finally and tell him where.

472
00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:44,840
Speaker 4: I was at and what was that phone called?

473
00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:46,560
Speaker 6: Like it was?

474
00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:49,760
Speaker 7: He was very upset. I was upset.

475
00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:53,280
Speaker 5: I was hysterical, and I still couldn't think of how

476
00:25:53,359 --> 00:25:57,760
Speaker 5: I landed here, you know, in Riker's Island. It was

477
00:25:57,880 --> 00:26:02,840
Speaker 5: just it was so and you have no clothes, You

478
00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:04,199
Speaker 5: have the rents out what you have on.

479
00:26:04,320 --> 00:26:06,360
Speaker 7: You took a shower, your rents out what you have.

480
00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:10,720
Speaker 5: On and hang it in your cell, hopefully it be

481
00:26:10,800 --> 00:26:14,000
Speaker 5: dry by morning, cause that's all you have. And that

482
00:26:14,119 --> 00:26:17,080
Speaker 5: was it til the next morning. Then you're taking out

483
00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:20,600
Speaker 5: and you go to the mess hall as they call it,

484
00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:24,600
Speaker 5: and and you're just there in that space until they

485
00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:27,000
Speaker 5: put you for two weeks. I guess it's two weeks

486
00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:30,800
Speaker 5: before they put you in population and then you they

487
00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:34,600
Speaker 5: assign you another s where I was living in the dormitory.

488
00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:37,080
Speaker 5: In the dorm where it's a whole bunch of beds

489
00:26:37,119 --> 00:26:41,520
Speaker 5: and women half toilets, there was no privacy at all.

490
00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:44,040
Speaker 5: You take showers where the whole bunch of other women

491
00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:47,920
Speaker 5: in one big circle thing, and you just got spickers

492
00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:50,879
Speaker 5: coming out the wall, and it was a lot of

493
00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:55,320
Speaker 5: different things that happen. It's it's terrible just being in

494
00:26:55,359 --> 00:26:59,000
Speaker 5: that place. A lot of different things go on, women

495
00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:02,360
Speaker 5: and women. I started working the night shift. I did

496
00:27:02,359 --> 00:27:04,119
Speaker 5: whatever I had to do so I wouldn't be on

497
00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:07,479
Speaker 5: the dorm at night. I just didn't. It was just

498
00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:10,399
Speaker 5: disgusting for me. I couldn't deal with that part of it.

499
00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:16,800
Speaker 4: So ultimately, thirteen months later, you end up finally getting

500
00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:20,400
Speaker 4: your day in court, and you had a lawyer who

501
00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:23,120
Speaker 4: didn't seems like he did the minimum amount of work

502
00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:25,840
Speaker 4: that he could do. Now you know, I don't know.

503
00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:27,959
Speaker 4: He may have been working on four hundred other cases.

504
00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:30,760
Speaker 4: There are certainly lawyers of public defenders in New York

505
00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:33,800
Speaker 4: who are so overburdened. But that doesn't matter when it's

506
00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:36,439
Speaker 4: your life on the line, right And we don't know

507
00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:39,960
Speaker 4: the personal circumstances that this individual was in, but one

508
00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:44,240
Speaker 4: way or another, he was not prepared and did not

509
00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:47,679
Speaker 4: represent you adequately, and you really didn't have a chance.

510
00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:51,720
Speaker 7: That's true. Well, I like the attorney I made.

511
00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:55,639
Speaker 5: My companion kept asking him and court when we went

512
00:27:55,680 --> 00:27:57,520
Speaker 5: to court, could he speak with him?

513
00:27:58,040 --> 00:28:01,120
Speaker 7: He always said yes, but he always left the courtroom.

514
00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:05,320
Speaker 5: He adjourned my case on numerous occasions, so there was

515
00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:10,159
Speaker 5: nothing that he did. There was no investigation because as

516
00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:14,480
Speaker 5: far as I'm concerned, when this incident happened, I don't

517
00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:17,760
Speaker 5: see where there's a police investigation done in anything. By

518
00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:21,160
Speaker 5: the time that they decided the man had passed away,

519
00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:24,080
Speaker 5: there was dust that family had came in and cleaned

520
00:28:24,119 --> 00:28:27,080
Speaker 5: the house, did a lot of things, so therefore there

521
00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:31,360
Speaker 5: was no fingerprints. There was nothing. The house was cleaned

522
00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:34,240
Speaker 5: because the family members. This is all the information I

523
00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:37,480
Speaker 5: found out later on after I was incarcerated.

524
00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:42,880
Speaker 4: Another terrible aspect of pre trial detention is that I'm

525
00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:45,960
Speaker 4: guessing your lawyer didn't visit you. No, he did not, right,

526
00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:47,959
Speaker 4: And there's a reason behind that too, which is that

527
00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:50,360
Speaker 4: for a lawyer to go to Rikers Island and visit you,

528
00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:52,320
Speaker 4: basically that's going to take their whole day. They don't

529
00:28:52,320 --> 00:28:54,840
Speaker 4: make it easy. It's a whole process you have to

530
00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:57,280
Speaker 4: go through. They have to travel to the jail. So

531
00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:01,040
Speaker 4: people who are not in the system right, people who

532
00:29:01,040 --> 00:29:04,200
Speaker 4: are out on bail or on their own recognizance, have

533
00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:06,520
Speaker 4: a much better chance because they can meet more freely

534
00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:09,680
Speaker 4: with their lawyers and get better representation, which is another

535
00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:11,640
Speaker 4: thing that I think it's important for people to understand.

536
00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:13,959
Speaker 4: It's one of the reasons why our bail system is

537
00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:19,400
Speaker 4: so unfair and ill conceived. So you were in that

538
00:29:19,560 --> 00:29:23,360
Speaker 4: exact situation where you're facing a murder wrap. Your lawyer's

539
00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:26,160
Speaker 4: not visiting you, he's not really doing any work every

540
00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:27,840
Speaker 4: time he comes in, and a journeys the case, you

541
00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:31,160
Speaker 4: go right back to Rikers Island, and so there's just

542
00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:36,360
Speaker 4: nothing that's fair or equitable about that. And ultimately, though

543
00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:38,880
Speaker 4: thirteen months later, you did get your day in court.

544
00:29:39,280 --> 00:29:42,440
Speaker 4: By this point, I mean, you'd been through so much,

545
00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:44,800
Speaker 4: and you'd been lied to by the people who are

546
00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:48,080
Speaker 4: supposed to protect you, and you'd been let down by

547
00:29:48,120 --> 00:29:50,440
Speaker 4: the other person was supposed to protect you as your lawyer.

548
00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:53,080
Speaker 4: The whole system is failing you. But when you went

549
00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:55,200
Speaker 4: to court, did you believe that justice would finally be

550
00:29:55,280 --> 00:29:57,400
Speaker 4: done and people would see that you were a innocent person.

551
00:29:57,800 --> 00:29:58,520
Speaker 7: Yes, I did.

552
00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:01,240
Speaker 5: That's the reason why I test on my own behalf,

553
00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:04,280
Speaker 5: because I didn't have anyone to testify for me.

554
00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:07,320
Speaker 7: And I mean Scott Selly.

555
00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:10,400
Speaker 5: He went out of his way to make sure that

556
00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:13,880
Speaker 5: family members were there, and a lot of them had

557
00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:17,480
Speaker 5: moved away because of the time lapse. They were in

558
00:30:17,560 --> 00:30:20,240
Speaker 5: another state, but he brought a lot of them there

559
00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:23,080
Speaker 5: so that the jury could see that there was a

560
00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:27,280
Speaker 5: large family, and it just made things move a little

561
00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:29,120
Speaker 5: smoother for him to get the conviction.

562
00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:32,800
Speaker 7: But I did speak to the family. I spoke to

563
00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:33,240
Speaker 7: the judge.

564
00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:35,680
Speaker 5: I even wrote a letter to the judge stating that

565
00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:37,080
Speaker 5: I did not commit this crime.

566
00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:38,520
Speaker 4: So these are what happened.

567
00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:44,600
Speaker 6: Well, Finessa testified that the confession was coerced and that

568
00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:45,600
Speaker 6: she was not there.

569
00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:46,480
Speaker 7: Now.

570
00:30:46,840 --> 00:30:51,320
Speaker 6: The jury deliberated for I think over thirteen hours. It

571
00:30:51,520 --> 00:30:56,560
Speaker 6: was a lengthy deliberation, relatively speaking, and they acquitted her

572
00:30:57,240 --> 00:31:01,040
Speaker 6: on the top count, which was murder. But there must

573
00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:04,520
Speaker 6: have been some kind of compromise because they did convict

574
00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:09,560
Speaker 6: her on the manslaughter and the only evidence against her

575
00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:12,240
Speaker 6: was the confession. But you have to remember this was

576
00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:17,880
Speaker 6: back in ninety seven and juries were not sensitized to

577
00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:22,080
Speaker 6: the issues we all know today about how innocent people

578
00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:27,120
Speaker 6: can confess. The science was not there then, and it

579
00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:31,800
Speaker 6: would take a lot for a jury to reject a

580
00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:36,400
Speaker 6: confession that someone seemed to have voluntarily made, and there

581
00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:40,680
Speaker 6: was no false confession expert who testified on her behalf

582
00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:46,240
Speaker 6: a trial, just Vanessa's word against Scarcella's word. And obviously

583
00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:52,600
Speaker 6: Scarcela at that time was a senior detective who nobody

584
00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:57,040
Speaker 6: had reason to question. There had been no allegations yet

585
00:31:57,560 --> 00:32:01,200
Speaker 6: that he had engaged in any corrupt life activity, so

586
00:32:01,560 --> 00:32:07,400
Speaker 6: it was reasonable for a jury to buy Scarcello's account

587
00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:11,200
Speaker 6: instead of Finesses. And I think that's what happened. If

588
00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:14,880
Speaker 6: the same case we're tried today, I think a jury

589
00:32:14,920 --> 00:32:19,480
Speaker 6: would be much more attuned to coercion issues and that

590
00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:22,280
Speaker 6: false confessions can happen. I think it would be a

591
00:32:22,320 --> 00:32:23,360
Speaker 6: different outcome today.

592
00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:26,040
Speaker 4: Frankly, Yeah, And I want to make sure that people

593
00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:30,120
Speaker 4: who are listening really take that in because now we

594
00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:33,120
Speaker 4: know there's so much research on false confessions. It is

595
00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:37,160
Speaker 4: a wonderful show on Netflix called The Confession Tapes. So

596
00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:40,720
Speaker 4: many people have seen the Confessions and other programs like

597
00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:44,560
Speaker 4: Making a Murderer that are so obviously false. We know

598
00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:49,000
Speaker 4: that in DNA exonerations over twenty percent of the cases

599
00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:54,800
Speaker 4: involve false confessions. It's a scary phenomenon, but it's very real.

600
00:32:55,120 --> 00:32:58,000
Speaker 4: And so Vanessa, at that moment when you were convicted,

601
00:32:58,040 --> 00:33:00,800
Speaker 4: because the jury did come back in and declare you

602
00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:04,200
Speaker 4: guilty of second degree manslaughter, what was that like?

603
00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:08,080
Speaker 5: I think I just went numb on it and believe it.

604
00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:10,000
Speaker 5: I didn't think I would get that kind of time

605
00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:13,720
Speaker 5: anyway for this he even if they didn't believe me.

606
00:33:14,560 --> 00:33:17,400
Speaker 5: I really didn't even realize how much time I had

607
00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:21,200
Speaker 5: to do. I just didn't believe it, so that nobody

608
00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:24,880
Speaker 5: believed me, you know what I was stating to them.

609
00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:28,400
Speaker 5: I mean, I know he had some issues in the past,

610
00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:31,360
Speaker 5: and he just came back forward trying to just get

611
00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:34,760
Speaker 5: a conviction, because he did have some problems in the department.

612
00:33:34,840 --> 00:33:36,520
Speaker 7: But he just came gunn ho at me.

613
00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:40,120
Speaker 5: And I'm not realizing that he was set me up

614
00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:42,480
Speaker 5: the whole time just to take the four for this crime.

615
00:33:43,320 --> 00:33:46,040
Speaker 4: But he did. And he probably got some pats on

616
00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:48,600
Speaker 4: the back and some you know, sort of accolades for

617
00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:52,480
Speaker 4: solving another cold case. And you were, you know, just

618
00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:54,360
Speaker 4: a little detailed to him. That's all. He probably never

619
00:33:54,560 --> 00:33:56,440
Speaker 4: Probably I'm guessing he went home that night, had a

620
00:33:56,480 --> 00:33:58,680
Speaker 4: nice dinner, you know, watch some TV, and went to sleep.

621
00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:02,160
Speaker 4: So you end up serving ten years in prison where

622
00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:05,600
Speaker 4: you had a perfect disciplinary record, and the whole time

623
00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:09,160
Speaker 4: you maintained your innocence, even though there were times when

624
00:34:09,200 --> 00:34:11,239
Speaker 4: you came before a parole board and it would have

625
00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:13,200
Speaker 4: been better for you in some ways to say that

626
00:34:13,239 --> 00:34:15,439
Speaker 4: you were guilty, because they would have probably sent you home.

627
00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:20,439
Speaker 5: Yes, that's true. But the first couple of times I went,

628
00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:23,719
Speaker 5: I did not. I kept I stated that I did

629
00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:24,520
Speaker 5: not do the crime.

630
00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:26,120
Speaker 4: But they don't want to hear that. They want to

631
00:34:26,120 --> 00:34:28,600
Speaker 4: hear that you're remorseful, that you feel bad that the victim.

632
00:34:28,719 --> 00:34:31,520
Speaker 5: I can't feel remorse when I didn't do something. They

633
00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:35,040
Speaker 5: don't understand. How do you feel You don't know the person,

634
00:34:35,560 --> 00:34:38,480
Speaker 5: you didn't do the crime, so how can you feel remorse.

635
00:34:38,840 --> 00:34:41,400
Speaker 5: I mean, I feel remorse when someone is getting beaten

636
00:34:41,520 --> 00:34:45,480
Speaker 5: or something like that, actually seen it happen. But as

637
00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:48,520
Speaker 5: far as me doing something like that, never never.

638
00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:52,160
Speaker 6: Finessa's right. In the first two parole hearings, she said

639
00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:55,520
Speaker 6: I did not do what they said I did. But

640
00:34:55,760 --> 00:35:01,120
Speaker 6: eight years in with a perfect disciplinary record and seeing

641
00:35:01,200 --> 00:35:04,600
Speaker 6: how little asserting her evidence got her with the parole

642
00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:09,719
Speaker 6: board previously, in her third parole hearing, she appeared to

643
00:35:10,200 --> 00:35:15,040
Speaker 6: admit guilt, and we retained a fabulous expert who was

644
00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:20,800
Speaker 6: able to explain the conundrum that someone like Vanessa is facing.

645
00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:25,680
Speaker 6: And Vanessa testified in her deposition that everyone on the

646
00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:29,880
Speaker 6: inside was telling her you're an idiot. You've got to

647
00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:33,040
Speaker 6: tell them what they want to hear. Just tell them

648
00:35:33,080 --> 00:35:36,920
Speaker 6: you did it. And so Vanessa in the third parole

649
00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:42,080
Speaker 6: hearing appeared to admit guilt when in fact, obviously she

650
00:35:42,520 --> 00:35:45,360
Speaker 6: was not guilty, but it was the only way she

651
00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:47,840
Speaker 6: could see to get out early.

652
00:35:48,680 --> 00:35:51,719
Speaker 5: At that point, it didn't matter they it didn't matter.

653
00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:54,400
Speaker 5: Even in the third hearing, date hit me again with

654
00:35:54,480 --> 00:35:58,160
Speaker 5: another two years, which is pissed my cr date, my

655
00:35:58,239 --> 00:36:01,120
Speaker 5: condition to release. It was up to them, I would

656
00:36:01,160 --> 00:36:12,680
Speaker 5: have still been in there until two thousand and eight.

657
00:36:16,760 --> 00:36:18,239
Speaker 4: Now we're going to get to the good part of

658
00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:20,800
Speaker 4: the story, right, because there is a happy ending, or

659
00:36:20,840 --> 00:36:22,719
Speaker 4: you wouldn't be sitting here now and you wouldn't be

660
00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:26,560
Speaker 4: enjoying the nice, big, extended family that you now have.

661
00:36:26,680 --> 00:36:29,560
Speaker 4: And so the good guys come to the rescue. Right.

662
00:36:29,640 --> 00:36:33,400
Speaker 4: You have Lisa and her team at Hughes, Hubbard and Reed,

663
00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:36,920
Speaker 4: and you have the legal aid Society, and then at

664
00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:40,120
Speaker 4: just about the right time in Brooklyn, the Conviction Review

665
00:36:40,200 --> 00:36:46,520
Speaker 4: Unit was established, and that unit has done phenomenal work

666
00:36:47,080 --> 00:36:51,759
Speaker 4: in reversing many wrongful convictions, including last time I looked

667
00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:55,440
Speaker 4: at was seven or eight that Scarcela was directly responsible for,

668
00:36:56,040 --> 00:37:00,800
Speaker 4: including yours. So let's talk about that, because the happy

669
00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:04,160
Speaker 4: ending part of this story is really really important because

670
00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:09,000
Speaker 4: it requires people like Lisa and other dedicated professionals to

671
00:37:09,120 --> 00:37:11,600
Speaker 4: go and reverse one of these things. It's hard. I mean,

672
00:37:11,680 --> 00:37:13,839
Speaker 4: they don't make it easy at all. So how did

673
00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:16,640
Speaker 4: it come about Lisa? How did she end up getting justice?

674
00:37:16,680 --> 00:37:17,160
Speaker 4: After all?

675
00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:22,560
Speaker 6: Credit initially unquestionably goes to the Legal Aid Society. This

676
00:37:22,600 --> 00:37:26,360
Speaker 6: is what happened. Charles Hines was in the political fight

677
00:37:26,600 --> 00:37:31,279
Speaker 6: of his career and there had been an initial Scarcella

678
00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:35,600
Speaker 6: related exoneration in the David Ranta case, and the New

679
00:37:35,719 --> 00:37:40,600
Speaker 6: York Times and Ken Thompson are breathing down Charles Hines's back,

680
00:37:41,120 --> 00:37:45,000
Speaker 6: and he says, it's okay, everybody, I'm telling you right now,

681
00:37:45,080 --> 00:37:51,080
Speaker 6: I am going to reinvestigate every trial conviction that detective

682
00:37:51,160 --> 00:37:56,120
Speaker 6: Scarcella touched, and Hines prepared a list which has never

683
00:37:56,200 --> 00:37:59,440
Speaker 6: been publicly available. I don't know anyone that's ever seen it.

684
00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:05,440
Speaker 6: Initially it had at least fifty names of defendants on it.

685
00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:10,000
Speaker 6: And what the DA's office did was they contacted the

686
00:38:10,120 --> 00:38:14,640
Speaker 6: last lawyer of record in each of those fifty cases. Well,

687
00:38:14,680 --> 00:38:17,920
Speaker 6: the Legal Aid Society was the last lawyer of record

688
00:38:18,120 --> 00:38:21,759
Speaker 6: in a good half of those, about twenty five. And

689
00:38:21,840 --> 00:38:26,920
Speaker 6: so Legal Aid went to firms around town looking for

690
00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:31,120
Speaker 6: partners which is how Hughes Hubbard got involved with the

691
00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:36,360
Speaker 6: case and we proceeded on a three year partnership with

692
00:38:36,719 --> 00:38:42,880
Speaker 6: Legal Aid. We reinvestigated the crime and marshalled our arguments,

693
00:38:43,160 --> 00:38:48,600
Speaker 6: retained experts and were able to make a persuasive pitch

694
00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:53,920
Speaker 6: to the then District Attorney, Ken Thompson, who had beaten

695
00:38:54,040 --> 00:38:57,920
Speaker 6: Charles Hines in that election. And that is the short

696
00:38:57,960 --> 00:39:00,600
Speaker 6: story of how we were able to get to the

697
00:39:00,640 --> 00:39:01,640
Speaker 6: exoneration day.

698
00:39:02,360 --> 00:39:06,359
Speaker 4: And Ken Thompson sadly died last year at the young

699
00:39:06,440 --> 00:39:09,360
Speaker 4: age of fifty. He was a good man and a

700
00:39:09,400 --> 00:39:11,480
Speaker 4: decent man. He was a friend of mine, but he

701
00:39:11,960 --> 00:39:14,160
Speaker 4: was so proud. You know. He used to walk around

702
00:39:14,200 --> 00:39:15,960
Speaker 4: with a picture of you. I don't know, do you

703
00:39:16,040 --> 00:39:16,359
Speaker 4: know that?

704
00:39:16,920 --> 00:39:18,919
Speaker 5: No, I know it's in his office, but I didn't

705
00:39:18,920 --> 00:39:20,120
Speaker 5: know he had the picture with it.

706
00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:24,239
Speaker 4: He at his birthday party. He has this cardboard thing.

707
00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:26,879
Speaker 4: I'm holding my arms out wide to show how big

708
00:39:26,960 --> 00:39:29,040
Speaker 4: it was, and then it was about a couple of

709
00:39:29,040 --> 00:39:31,719
Speaker 4: feet three feet high, and on it it had a

710
00:39:31,719 --> 00:39:35,200
Speaker 4: picture of you and the other exoneries that he his

711
00:39:35,320 --> 00:39:38,480
Speaker 4: office had helped to exonerate. And so he was very

712
00:39:38,520 --> 00:39:41,880
Speaker 4: proud of you and of the work that he and

713
00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:44,279
Speaker 4: his team had done to help in your case. I

714
00:39:44,280 --> 00:39:47,640
Speaker 4: remember him mentioning you specifically, So you should feel good

715
00:39:47,640 --> 00:39:52,399
Speaker 4: about that. So when finally the light shone on you

716
00:39:52,600 --> 00:39:55,520
Speaker 4: and on your case and justice was done, and it

717
00:39:55,600 --> 00:40:00,359
Speaker 4: was proven by all these good people that this had happened,

718
00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:04,200
Speaker 4: and that you were telling the truth all along, except

719
00:40:04,200 --> 00:40:06,600
Speaker 4: when you were lying, because it was them telling you

720
00:40:06,640 --> 00:40:09,359
Speaker 4: what to say, right, I mean, but in fact, as

721
00:40:09,400 --> 00:40:11,880
Speaker 4: you had been saying you were innocent for so many years,

722
00:40:12,120 --> 00:40:15,440
Speaker 4: what did that feel like when finally you got your

723
00:40:15,480 --> 00:40:16,040
Speaker 4: life back?

724
00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:20,200
Speaker 5: It felt great, and I was like, I'm saying, I'm

725
00:40:20,239 --> 00:40:23,560
Speaker 5: able to finally put this behind me. You don't know

726
00:40:23,640 --> 00:40:27,600
Speaker 5: what you're feeling at that time, because it's like, it's

727
00:40:27,640 --> 00:40:29,080
Speaker 5: clear now that I didn't do it.

728
00:40:29,160 --> 00:40:31,200
Speaker 7: I mean, you don't know what people think of you,

729
00:40:32,000 --> 00:40:32,440
Speaker 7: whether you.

730
00:40:32,400 --> 00:40:34,880
Speaker 5: Did this crime or not, because it's on records stating

731
00:40:34,920 --> 00:40:38,560
Speaker 5: that you did. But I felt great, I mean I

732
00:40:38,600 --> 00:40:42,319
Speaker 5: felt relieved. Now live my life without having that on

733
00:40:42,360 --> 00:40:46,600
Speaker 5: my record. It's very difficult to try and find a job,

734
00:40:47,280 --> 00:40:49,400
Speaker 5: to move on in life because you have this hanging

735
00:40:49,480 --> 00:40:52,640
Speaker 5: over your head. Now my record is clean, I could

736
00:40:52,640 --> 00:40:56,279
Speaker 5: state that I have no record, which makes life a

737
00:40:56,280 --> 00:40:59,879
Speaker 5: lot easier for me because people look to a background check.

738
00:41:00,160 --> 00:41:00,920
Speaker 7: Is nothing there.

739
00:41:01,680 --> 00:41:03,840
Speaker 4: It's nothing there because you never had anything there, because

740
00:41:03,880 --> 00:41:06,000
Speaker 4: you were always there, always were a law abiding citizen.

741
00:41:06,280 --> 00:41:09,760
Speaker 5: Yes, but as far as the law and the criminal

742
00:41:09,880 --> 00:41:12,800
Speaker 5: justice system said, yes you have a record, it's on there.

743
00:41:13,000 --> 00:41:13,560
Speaker 4: Not anymore.

744
00:41:13,800 --> 00:41:15,520
Speaker 7: Not anymore, it's been taken away.

745
00:41:15,760 --> 00:41:18,480
Speaker 4: And now you know, there's another aspect of this, which

746
00:41:18,520 --> 00:41:21,279
Speaker 4: is something that's so troubling. You know, when we live

747
00:41:21,280 --> 00:41:25,040
Speaker 4: in a country where we have approximately four point four

748
00:41:25,080 --> 00:41:27,520
Speaker 4: percent of the world's population, but we have thirty three

749
00:41:27,560 --> 00:41:30,400
Speaker 4: percent of the world's female prison population, which is just

750
00:41:30,640 --> 00:41:34,839
Speaker 4: so outrageous. I mean, it's a national disgrace the way

751
00:41:34,880 --> 00:41:38,319
Speaker 4: we treat women in this country. And when somebody like

752
00:41:38,400 --> 00:41:43,640
Speaker 4: you is locked up, you're missing out on your children's lives, right,

753
00:41:43,760 --> 00:41:47,440
Speaker 4: and your children grandchildren, and that dynamic. I mean, that

754
00:41:47,520 --> 00:41:50,080
Speaker 4: must have been an extra punishment. It was.

755
00:41:50,440 --> 00:41:54,400
Speaker 5: My granddaughter was like only a year or when I

756
00:41:54,440 --> 00:41:58,040
Speaker 5: went in, and it caused a lot of chaos be

757
00:41:58,040 --> 00:42:00,919
Speaker 5: twet me and my daughter because I wasn't there for her.

758
00:42:01,640 --> 00:42:05,319
Speaker 5: You understand, when she needed her mother to help her,

759
00:42:05,680 --> 00:42:07,680
Speaker 5: when she had questions about raising her daughter.

760
00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:08,479
Speaker 7: I wasn't there.

761
00:42:08,719 --> 00:42:11,520
Speaker 4: She couldn't even call you no and not but you

762
00:42:11,520 --> 00:42:13,440
Speaker 4: were far away, right that That's another thing.

763
00:42:13,640 --> 00:42:16,400
Speaker 5: I was in bedfoot for a while, and then I

764
00:42:16,520 --> 00:42:20,520
Speaker 5: finally moved to They moved me to Bayview, which is

765
00:42:20,560 --> 00:42:23,279
Speaker 5: in Manhattan, which was made closer because I didn't get

766
00:42:23,280 --> 00:42:26,279
Speaker 5: a lot of visits. I didn't get visits because my

767
00:42:26,360 --> 00:42:31,480
Speaker 5: family couldn't come to the facility because we were poor.

768
00:42:31,600 --> 00:42:34,840
Speaker 5: We didn't have money like that. I mean, even like

769
00:42:36,160 --> 00:42:38,920
Speaker 5: my father was living at the time. He wanted to

770
00:42:38,920 --> 00:42:40,920
Speaker 5: put up his farm. I wouldn't allow him to do

771
00:42:41,000 --> 00:42:43,560
Speaker 5: that because they gave me a quarter million dollar bill,

772
00:42:43,840 --> 00:42:45,399
Speaker 5: saying where do you think I'm gonna get that kind

773
00:42:45,400 --> 00:42:49,160
Speaker 5: of money from. It was difficult for everyone. I lost

774
00:42:49,200 --> 00:42:51,880
Speaker 5: a lot of family members. I lost a brother or sister,

775
00:42:53,440 --> 00:42:57,400
Speaker 5: my uncle, my aunt, I lost my mother, my father's brother.

776
00:42:57,920 --> 00:43:00,360
Speaker 5: It was it was a lot of family member that

777
00:43:00,400 --> 00:43:04,480
Speaker 5: passed away. During my first year incarcerated. I couldn't attend

778
00:43:04,480 --> 00:43:08,600
Speaker 5: anything because if you're in New York or if your

779
00:43:08,640 --> 00:43:11,719
Speaker 5: family's out of state, you can't go to the services.

780
00:43:11,760 --> 00:43:14,359
Speaker 7: So that was hard for me to deal with too.

781
00:43:14,440 --> 00:43:17,760
Speaker 5: It was a lot of things that that I missed

782
00:43:17,800 --> 00:43:20,200
Speaker 5: out on because of my incarceration.

783
00:43:20,560 --> 00:43:23,120
Speaker 4: So you had to endure the death of numerous family

784
00:43:23,120 --> 00:43:25,759
Speaker 4: members while you were behind bars for something you didn't do,

785
00:43:25,880 --> 00:43:29,400
Speaker 4: and you weren't even allowed to go to the funeral, right. So,

786
00:43:29,480 --> 00:43:32,720
Speaker 4: I mean, it's so amazing to me that you're here now,

787
00:43:33,239 --> 00:43:38,000
Speaker 4: standing up straight, proud, like, able to put a sentence together, right,

788
00:43:38,120 --> 00:43:41,080
Speaker 4: able to just have a life when you've been through

789
00:43:41,200 --> 00:43:45,120
Speaker 4: such an incredibly terrible ordeal that you never deserved. I mean,

790
00:43:45,160 --> 00:43:49,640
Speaker 4: it's crazy. So now the good news is you have

791
00:43:49,719 --> 00:43:52,160
Speaker 4: gotten your life back, right. I mean, this thing actually

792
00:43:52,200 --> 00:43:54,359
Speaker 4: happened almost twenty years ago. Must be crazy to think

793
00:43:54,400 --> 00:43:56,799
Speaker 4: about that. And now you've been out for some time,

794
00:43:57,080 --> 00:43:59,960
Speaker 4: and what's the situation Now? You settled your lawsuits, right,

795
00:44:00,080 --> 00:44:04,879
Speaker 4: which is great, Yes, and it's worth noting that Scarcela

796
00:44:05,000 --> 00:44:09,640
Speaker 4: not only ruined so many people's lives and left so

797
00:44:09,719 --> 00:44:14,160
Speaker 4: many crimes unsolved, leading to many more crimes happening, because obviously,

798
00:44:14,239 --> 00:44:16,279
Speaker 4: when he arrested and was able to get convictions on

799
00:44:16,280 --> 00:44:18,320
Speaker 4: the wrong people, the right people were out there committing

800
00:44:18,360 --> 00:44:21,560
Speaker 4: more crimes. Right, So he's got that. And then also

801
00:44:21,640 --> 00:44:24,040
Speaker 4: there's been tens of millions of dollars paid out to

802
00:44:24,440 --> 00:44:27,279
Speaker 4: so many victims of his by the city, which is

803
00:44:27,360 --> 00:44:31,319
Speaker 4: taxpayer money. So there's nothing cute or funny about what

804
00:44:31,400 --> 00:44:34,480
Speaker 4: this guy was doing. When these guys behave in this way,

805
00:44:34,520 --> 00:44:37,000
Speaker 4: who are supposed to be protecting us and keeping us safe,

806
00:44:37,200 --> 00:44:41,560
Speaker 4: it has so many terrible consequences across the board. So

807
00:44:42,160 --> 00:44:45,640
Speaker 4: now where are you living, how's your life, what's your

808
00:44:45,640 --> 00:44:49,279
Speaker 4: family situation? I want to hear, well, I'm living.

809
00:44:49,000 --> 00:44:51,840
Speaker 5: In Jersey's City now, although I was living in Manhattan

810
00:44:51,920 --> 00:44:55,960
Speaker 5: until twenty fourteen and working. I was working from the

811
00:44:56,040 --> 00:44:58,000
Speaker 5: day that I got out of prison because I met

812
00:44:58,040 --> 00:45:00,719
Speaker 5: a couple day gave me a job and I work

813
00:45:00,760 --> 00:45:05,000
Speaker 5: with them for almost eight years until they retired. And

814
00:45:05,040 --> 00:45:08,719
Speaker 5: then now living in Jersey City. My mother has Alzheimer's.

815
00:45:08,800 --> 00:45:11,120
Speaker 5: That's one of the reasons. I moved back to Jersey

816
00:45:11,160 --> 00:45:14,719
Speaker 5: City where she is. I recently purchased a home or

817
00:45:14,800 --> 00:45:19,160
Speaker 5: it's eleventh for graduations. I have the first one, and

818
00:45:19,280 --> 00:45:21,760
Speaker 5: my daughter has a second. It's a two family house

819
00:45:21,840 --> 00:45:25,840
Speaker 5: and she's upstairs with a daughter and her granddaughter, my granddaughter,

820
00:45:25,880 --> 00:45:28,799
Speaker 5: my great granddaughter and my daughter, so we all live

821
00:45:28,840 --> 00:45:29,400
Speaker 5: in together.

822
00:45:29,560 --> 00:45:31,120
Speaker 4: Right, have any boys in your family?

823
00:45:31,840 --> 00:45:32,920
Speaker 7: We do have boys.

824
00:45:33,600 --> 00:45:37,399
Speaker 5: I have brothers, But as far as me, it's four

825
00:45:37,440 --> 00:45:40,640
Speaker 5: generations of females. Well five, you put my mother in there,

826
00:45:40,719 --> 00:45:41,920
Speaker 5: but it's just females.

827
00:45:42,040 --> 00:45:44,879
Speaker 4: You got four generations living under one roof in Jersey City.

828
00:45:44,920 --> 00:45:48,080
Speaker 4: It sounds incredible and isn't that nice though, that now

829
00:45:48,120 --> 00:45:51,319
Speaker 4: you're able to make up for the time that you

830
00:45:51,440 --> 00:45:53,319
Speaker 4: lost with your family. Now you have your whole like

831
00:45:53,800 --> 00:45:56,279
Speaker 4: so many of you all there together. I mean, it

832
00:45:56,360 --> 00:45:57,680
Speaker 4: must be just a joy for you.

833
00:45:58,200 --> 00:46:01,160
Speaker 7: It is. It is wonderful.

834
00:46:01,360 --> 00:46:04,040
Speaker 5: I can see my granddaughter, my great granddaughter at any

835
00:46:04,080 --> 00:46:06,759
Speaker 5: time if I need to go somewhere in My.

836
00:46:06,760 --> 00:46:08,040
Speaker 7: Granddaughter does have a car.

837
00:46:08,160 --> 00:46:11,520
Speaker 5: She's working, so she could take me and then I

838
00:46:11,600 --> 00:46:13,239
Speaker 5: get this babysit my granddaughter.

839
00:46:14,160 --> 00:46:18,200
Speaker 4: So that's amazing. Well, listen, I'm happy that things finally

840
00:46:18,239 --> 00:46:20,960
Speaker 4: worked out. I want to apologize to you for what

841
00:46:21,120 --> 00:46:24,399
Speaker 4: the city and the state did to you. There's no

842
00:46:24,440 --> 00:46:28,680
Speaker 4: excuse for it, but I'm glad you're here now. One

843
00:46:28,719 --> 00:46:32,520
Speaker 4: of my favorite parts of the show often is to

844
00:46:32,520 --> 00:46:36,480
Speaker 4: turn the microphone over to our featured guest and see,

845
00:46:36,520 --> 00:46:38,760
Speaker 4: is there anything else you want to share with the audience.

846
00:46:39,760 --> 00:46:42,560
Speaker 5: Well, no, I'm just saying that. Well, during the time

847
00:46:42,600 --> 00:46:45,200
Speaker 5: that I was in there, I mean, I wasn't going

848
00:46:45,239 --> 00:46:46,680
Speaker 5: to let the time do me. I was going to

849
00:46:46,719 --> 00:46:49,680
Speaker 5: do the time. So I got myself involved with a

850
00:46:49,719 --> 00:46:53,680
Speaker 5: lot of different activities throughout the prison. I worked hard

851
00:46:53,719 --> 00:46:55,680
Speaker 5: to stay in touch with my family. I would read

852
00:46:55,719 --> 00:47:00,479
Speaker 5: my granddaughter books on you know, on video and send

853
00:47:00,480 --> 00:47:03,200
Speaker 5: the books. There's a lot of programs in there. There's

854
00:47:03,200 --> 00:47:05,480
Speaker 5: a lot of things you could do even though you're

855
00:47:05,520 --> 00:47:09,440
Speaker 5: fighting your case. But do something positive, you know, don't

856
00:47:09,520 --> 00:47:11,719
Speaker 5: let the negativity rule you.

857
00:47:12,800 --> 00:47:15,799
Speaker 4: And Lisa any final thoughts, I would.

858
00:47:15,560 --> 00:47:18,840
Speaker 6: Just say, having known Vanessa now for five or six years,

859
00:47:19,040 --> 00:47:23,200
Speaker 6: she is an exceptional person and the only way I

860
00:47:23,239 --> 00:47:27,120
Speaker 6: think she was able to get through this ordeal was

861
00:47:27,160 --> 00:47:31,319
Speaker 6: her strength of character. She got into prison, and I

862
00:47:31,360 --> 00:47:34,600
Speaker 6: think this woman just put her head down and said,

863
00:47:34,920 --> 00:47:38,600
Speaker 6: I'm going to get through this, and she just was

864
00:47:38,680 --> 00:47:43,640
Speaker 6: forward thinking. She never obsessed about how did this happen?

865
00:47:43,719 --> 00:47:46,279
Speaker 6: How did I get here? It was just one day

866
00:47:46,320 --> 00:47:49,080
Speaker 6: at a time. I've got to get out of here.

867
00:47:49,280 --> 00:47:54,280
Speaker 6: And she mentioned the couple that hired her right after prison.

868
00:47:54,400 --> 00:47:56,960
Speaker 6: I just want to speak to that because I think

869
00:47:56,960 --> 00:48:01,719
Speaker 6: it's so telling about Vanessa. Literally, a wealthy couple was

870
00:48:01,800 --> 00:48:07,560
Speaker 6: volunteering at Bayview, husband and wife. Vanessa was running the

871
00:48:07,640 --> 00:48:11,640
Speaker 6: ged program. She was running this thing, that thing, and

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00:48:11,680 --> 00:48:15,880
Speaker 6: they elbowed each other and said, why is she here?

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Speaker 6: We don't get it. She's not like anyone else in here.

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Speaker 6: And they befriended Vanessa, and literally one week after she

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00:48:26,120 --> 00:48:29,960
Speaker 6: was released, she was in a full time job working

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Speaker 6: for them, and she was the chief administrator of their

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00:48:33,920 --> 00:48:39,320
Speaker 6: very successful company and worked for these people for seven years.

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Speaker 6: They trusted her, they loved her. They could see what she.

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00:48:42,520 --> 00:48:43,319
Speaker 7: Was capable of.

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Speaker 6: And you know, my client is just an extraordinary woman,

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Speaker 6: and it's a testament to her character that she was

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Speaker 6: able to get through this.

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Speaker 4: Well, both of you are extraordinary women. So Vanessa, Lisa,

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Speaker 4: thank you so much for coming in and appearing on

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00:48:59,520 --> 00:49:03,440
Speaker 4: the show. You've been listening to a very special episode

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00:49:03,560 --> 00:49:07,919
Speaker 4: of Wrongful Conviction with our guests Fanessa Others and Lisa Kaye.

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00:49:08,160 --> 00:49:18,239
Speaker 4: Thank you for having me, don't forget to give us

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00:49:18,239 --> 00:49:21,960
Speaker 4: a fantastic review. Wherever you get your podcasts, it really helps.

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00:49:22,360 --> 00:49:25,200
Speaker 4: And I'm a proud donor to the Ennisis Project and

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00:49:25,239 --> 00:49:27,960
Speaker 4: I really hope you'll join me in supporting this very

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00:49:28,000 --> 00:49:31,960
Speaker 4: important cause and helping to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go

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00:49:32,080 --> 00:49:35,080
Speaker 4: to annessisproject dot org to learn how to donate and

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00:49:35,120 --> 00:49:38,280
Speaker 4: get involved. I'd like to thank our production team, Connor

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00:49:38,320 --> 00:49:41,040
Speaker 4: Hall and Kevin Wartis. The music in the show is

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00:49:41,040 --> 00:49:44,560
Speaker 4: by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure

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00:49:44,600 --> 00:49:47,719
Speaker 4: to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on

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00:49:47,760 --> 00:49:52,080
Speaker 4: Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast. Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm

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00:49:52,280 --> 00:49:55,440
Speaker 4: is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts and association

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Speaker 4: with Signal Company Number one.

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Speaker 2: When the Morning the Boy Hated Them