1 00:00:05,920 --> 00:00:17,240 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Greece. A tiny little boy folded over, 2 00:00:17,520 --> 00:00:25,360 Speaker 1: folded up into a suitcase. Just let that sink in 3 00:00:25,520 --> 00:00:29,120 Speaker 1: for a moment. It was a suitcase with the iconic 4 00:00:30,560 --> 00:00:38,880 Speaker 1: sign on it, Welcome to Fabulous Las Vegas. A tiny boy, 5 00:00:39,640 --> 00:00:46,600 Speaker 1: A five year old boy folded up dead in a suitcase. 6 00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:52,600 Speaker 1: I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for 7 00:00:52,640 --> 00:00:55,080 Speaker 1: being with us here at Fox Nation. In series XM 8 00:00:55,280 --> 00:00:59,600 Speaker 1: one eleven, A stunning twist in the case of the 9 00:00:59,680 --> 00:01:05,319 Speaker 1: boy in a suitcase. Listen to our friends. Whas shocking 10 00:01:05,360 --> 00:01:08,880 Speaker 1: story that's been developing since the weekend. New evidence released 11 00:01:08,880 --> 00:01:11,920 Speaker 1: by Indiana State Police moments ago, and the discovery of 12 00:01:11,920 --> 00:01:14,360 Speaker 1: a little boy's body in the woods in southern Indiana, 13 00:01:14,440 --> 00:01:17,040 Speaker 1: the chilling reality that he may have been dumped there 14 00:01:17,120 --> 00:01:20,840 Speaker 1: from somewhere else. This photo of a suitcase. Indiana State 15 00:01:20,880 --> 00:01:23,039 Speaker 1: Police tell us the body of the little boy was 16 00:01:23,120 --> 00:01:26,240 Speaker 1: found inside this suitcase, and for the first time, they 17 00:01:26,240 --> 00:01:28,920 Speaker 1: have given a specific location, the seven thousand block of 18 00:01:28,959 --> 00:01:32,600 Speaker 1: East Holder Road in Washington County, Indiana. The wooded area 19 00:01:32,640 --> 00:01:35,360 Speaker 1: there that's southeast of Salem. Now the discovery was made 20 00:01:35,360 --> 00:01:38,720 Speaker 1: by a person hunting for mushrooms over the weekend. Also 21 00:01:38,800 --> 00:01:42,080 Speaker 1: new today, an autopsy was performed. Police have not released 22 00:01:42,120 --> 00:01:45,760 Speaker 1: any results, nor they have released no possible cause of death, 23 00:01:45,800 --> 00:01:47,920 Speaker 1: and they still do not know his identity. We do 24 00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:50,000 Speaker 1: know the police say the boy isn't only five to 25 00:01:50,040 --> 00:01:52,080 Speaker 1: eight years old. They add that he could have been 26 00:01:52,120 --> 00:01:55,240 Speaker 1: from anywhere, not just southern Indiana. Investigators say they have 27 00:01:55,320 --> 00:01:57,640 Speaker 1: been searching the wooded area where the boy was found, 28 00:01:57,640 --> 00:02:00,440 Speaker 1: but the information has not led them to any answers, 29 00:02:00,800 --> 00:02:05,760 Speaker 1: and that is how the mystery, the puzzle began. But 30 00:02:05,840 --> 00:02:10,000 Speaker 1: I'm still overwhelmed by just the words. A little boy 31 00:02:10,120 --> 00:02:15,120 Speaker 1: folded up dead in a suitcase, a Vegas suitcase, found 32 00:02:15,160 --> 00:02:19,000 Speaker 1: in Indiana. But they have no idea where this little 33 00:02:19,040 --> 00:02:22,440 Speaker 1: boy was from. Take a listen to our friends at 34 00:02:22,520 --> 00:02:25,880 Speaker 1: w d RB right now. Indiana State Police isn't giving 35 00:02:25,880 --> 00:02:29,480 Speaker 1: too many details on this case, but investigators do believe 36 00:02:29,520 --> 00:02:32,200 Speaker 1: that somebody out there knows something that can help them 37 00:02:32,240 --> 00:02:35,280 Speaker 1: figure out who this child was. We are looking for 38 00:02:35,320 --> 00:02:37,560 Speaker 1: the public's help and finding out the name of this child, 39 00:02:37,720 --> 00:02:40,800 Speaker 1: this little boy who deserves answers. He deserves our help, 40 00:02:40,960 --> 00:02:44,400 Speaker 1: Sergeant Carrie Holes said Saturday night. A mushroom hunter in 41 00:02:44,440 --> 00:02:47,520 Speaker 1: the woods in rural Washington County discovered the body of 42 00:02:47,560 --> 00:02:50,200 Speaker 1: a young boy. He noticed something and went to investigate, 43 00:02:50,240 --> 00:02:52,720 Speaker 1: and that's what he found. So very disturbing, very shocking, 44 00:02:52,840 --> 00:02:56,840 Speaker 1: very traumatic event, very sad event. The man who found 45 00:02:56,919 --> 00:03:00,799 Speaker 1: this boy, Jeff Meridith, is in agony. He was one 46 00:03:00,840 --> 00:03:04,079 Speaker 1: of the last people to see this child's face. When 47 00:03:04,120 --> 00:03:08,840 Speaker 1: I first saw that little feller, immediately I felt that 48 00:03:09,000 --> 00:03:15,600 Speaker 1: he was telling me, help me, I need help. It 49 00:03:15,720 --> 00:03:19,680 Speaker 1: sounds like it's out of an Agatha Christie mystery. A 50 00:03:19,880 --> 00:03:25,840 Speaker 1: mushroom hunter. How likely is that? Very unlikely? Finds a suitcase, 51 00:03:26,440 --> 00:03:31,440 Speaker 1: opens a suitcase and finds a little boy dead inside. 52 00:03:31,480 --> 00:03:33,600 Speaker 1: The first place to start is what was the cod 53 00:03:34,080 --> 00:03:37,480 Speaker 1: cause of death? Listen to our friends WHS eleven, a 54 00:03:37,560 --> 00:03:41,320 Speaker 1: boy found dead in southern Indiana, remains nameless. His story 55 00:03:41,560 --> 00:03:45,320 Speaker 1: and the suitcase he was found in have gained national attention, 56 00:03:45,600 --> 00:03:50,000 Speaker 1: hundreds of tips submitted, and still no answers except for one. 57 00:03:50,440 --> 00:03:53,440 Speaker 1: We now know how the boy died. At this time, 58 00:03:53,480 --> 00:03:56,800 Speaker 1: there's no evidence that leads an investigator to believe that 59 00:03:56,840 --> 00:03:59,200 Speaker 1: he was alive when he went into the suitcase. Sergeant 60 00:03:59,280 --> 00:04:03,840 Speaker 1: Carrie Hoole says investigators got the autopsy and toxicology reports. 61 00:04:03,920 --> 00:04:07,720 Speaker 1: On May twentieth, seven days later, they share this unnamed 62 00:04:07,720 --> 00:04:13,720 Speaker 1: boy died from an electrolyte imbalance, most likely due to gastroenteritis, 63 00:04:14,120 --> 00:04:17,279 Speaker 1: which in common layman's term would be vomiting and diarrhea, 64 00:04:17,360 --> 00:04:21,440 Speaker 1: and that resulted in dehydration fetal dehydration. And he says 65 00:04:21,480 --> 00:04:26,039 Speaker 1: the toxicology report found nothing significant. So if a little 66 00:04:26,080 --> 00:04:33,080 Speaker 1: boy dies of vomiting and diarrhea, nobody noticed that he 67 00:04:33,400 --> 00:04:37,960 Speaker 1: was vomiting and had horrible diarrhea till he was being starved, 68 00:04:38,120 --> 00:04:42,039 Speaker 1: there's nothing in him anymore. And he just died. Where 69 00:04:42,200 --> 00:04:44,880 Speaker 1: was he? And I guarantee hit it and crawl into 70 00:04:44,960 --> 00:04:49,800 Speaker 1: a suitcase and die and closed that suitcase and maneuver 71 00:04:49,920 --> 00:04:52,599 Speaker 1: it into the woods in Indiana. That didn't happen. So 72 00:04:52,640 --> 00:04:55,640 Speaker 1: we have a cod cause of death, but still no name. 73 00:04:55,760 --> 00:05:02,120 Speaker 1: Well in the last hours, literally that little boy now 74 00:05:02,680 --> 00:05:06,520 Speaker 1: has a name listened to our friends at the Indiana 75 00:05:06,560 --> 00:05:12,120 Speaker 1: State Police. At this time, we can also identify, excuse me, 76 00:05:13,080 --> 00:05:15,240 Speaker 1: identify the young man that was found in the suitcase. 77 00:05:15,839 --> 00:05:22,240 Speaker 1: He was Cairo Amar Jordan. Cairo Amar Jordan was from Atlanta, Jordan, George, 78 00:05:22,279 --> 00:05:25,000 Speaker 1: excuse me. He was five years old at the time 79 00:05:25,040 --> 00:05:29,040 Speaker 1: of his death, and Cairo would have turned six this 80 00:05:29,160 --> 00:05:33,080 Speaker 1: past Monday. On October twenty fourth, again Kiro Amar Jordan. 81 00:05:33,440 --> 00:05:36,360 Speaker 1: He was five from Atlanta, Georgia. A man hunting for 82 00:05:36,520 --> 00:05:41,239 Speaker 1: mushrooms made the discovery in Washington County, Indiana on April sixteenth, 83 00:05:41,240 --> 00:05:44,200 Speaker 1: but it wasn't until today that investigators identify the little 84 00:05:44,240 --> 00:05:48,159 Speaker 1: boy found inside as Cairo Jordan from Metro Atlanta. People 85 00:05:48,160 --> 00:05:50,960 Speaker 1: who live in the Indiana community have waited since spring 86 00:05:51,000 --> 00:05:54,040 Speaker 1: for answers. They named the child Angel, and strangers were 87 00:05:54,080 --> 00:05:57,599 Speaker 1: overcome with emotion as they held this memorial service forty 88 00:05:57,600 --> 00:06:00,479 Speaker 1: six days after his body was found. Now their local 89 00:06:00,520 --> 00:06:03,800 Speaker 1: mystery has turned into a nationwide search to find the 90 00:06:03,880 --> 00:06:06,679 Speaker 1: child's mother. You were just hearing our friends at WSB 91 00:06:06,960 --> 00:06:09,359 Speaker 1: too as well with me an all star panel to 92 00:06:09,400 --> 00:06:12,360 Speaker 1: make sense of what we know right now, including Max 93 00:06:12,440 --> 00:06:16,200 Speaker 1: Lewis from Fox fifty nine in Indianapolis. But first I 94 00:06:16,240 --> 00:06:20,760 Speaker 1: want to go to Detective Matt Busick joining us from 95 00:06:20,800 --> 00:06:24,200 Speaker 1: the Indiana State Police. Detective Busick, thank you for being 96 00:06:24,240 --> 00:06:27,080 Speaker 1: with us. Yes, ma'am, thank you. Detective. Do you recall 97 00:06:27,160 --> 00:06:30,120 Speaker 1: when you first learned I mean, let me ask you 98 00:06:30,160 --> 00:06:36,040 Speaker 1: something off point. Do you have children? How many as six? 99 00:06:36,080 --> 00:06:38,960 Speaker 1: Actually I'm guessing one of those is a little boy. Yes, 100 00:06:39,040 --> 00:06:41,200 Speaker 1: I have three boys and three girls. Do you recall 101 00:06:41,200 --> 00:06:45,279 Speaker 1: when you first learned, Detective Busick, that a five year 102 00:06:45,440 --> 00:06:51,440 Speaker 1: old little boy weighed forty pounds was found folded up 103 00:06:51,920 --> 00:06:56,159 Speaker 1: dead in a Vegas suitcase. Yes, ma'am, how I do 104 00:06:56,240 --> 00:06:58,479 Speaker 1: recall that? Tell me about it? Well, like I said, 105 00:06:59,120 --> 00:07:00,800 Speaker 1: I don't want to get into too much here, like 106 00:07:00,920 --> 00:07:03,360 Speaker 1: I'm still run an investigation on trying to stand personally, 107 00:07:03,400 --> 00:07:06,200 Speaker 1: I'm asking you when you first learned about it? Well, yes, 108 00:07:06,240 --> 00:07:09,120 Speaker 1: it's very disturbing, Yes it is. I pictured my own 109 00:07:09,240 --> 00:07:13,720 Speaker 1: children to doctor Thomas Plant joining me, Professor of Psychology 110 00:07:13,800 --> 00:07:17,360 Speaker 1: and Religious Studies, and you'll see why he is so 111 00:07:17,480 --> 00:07:22,720 Speaker 1: very critical in our discussion today. Adjunct Professor Psychiatry at 112 00:07:22,760 --> 00:07:27,920 Speaker 1: Stanford University, Editor of Spirituality and Clinical Practice, author of 113 00:07:28,200 --> 00:07:33,080 Speaker 1: Human Interaction with the Divine, Sacred Deceased, Doctor Plant, thank 114 00:07:33,120 --> 00:07:34,800 Speaker 1: you so much for being with us, well, thank you 115 00:07:34,840 --> 00:07:37,880 Speaker 1: for inviting me. Yes, sir, when I first heard about 116 00:07:37,880 --> 00:07:41,680 Speaker 1: a five year old boy folded over dead like an 117 00:07:41,680 --> 00:07:45,960 Speaker 1: old coat in a suitcase, abandoned no idea where he 118 00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:50,040 Speaker 1: came from. And critically no one had reported him missing. 119 00:07:51,360 --> 00:07:53,560 Speaker 1: All I can think about were my children, John, David 120 00:07:53,560 --> 00:07:58,000 Speaker 1: and Lucy at age five, and how defenseless they were. 121 00:07:59,040 --> 00:08:05,520 Speaker 1: Doctor Plant, does the nature of crimes like this ever 122 00:08:06,440 --> 00:08:10,400 Speaker 1: keep you from a clear head? Well, of course, we're 123 00:08:10,400 --> 00:08:13,760 Speaker 1: all emotional human beings, and we all have emotional reactions, 124 00:08:13,800 --> 00:08:18,160 Speaker 1: and we all can probably relates as parents, like yourself, 125 00:08:18,320 --> 00:08:21,440 Speaker 1: like myself, and like so many others, to what would 126 00:08:21,880 --> 00:08:25,520 Speaker 1: it be like to discover our own child in such 127 00:08:25,560 --> 00:08:31,360 Speaker 1: an awful, horrific condition, And so of course we always 128 00:08:31,800 --> 00:08:34,880 Speaker 1: can relate, and yet we have to be objective and 129 00:08:35,120 --> 00:08:37,560 Speaker 1: thoughtful and trying to do the best we can to 130 00:08:37,920 --> 00:08:42,560 Speaker 1: understand the situation and act accordingly. Straight out to Max Lewis, 131 00:08:42,640 --> 00:08:46,240 Speaker 1: joining US reporter with Fox fifty nine in Indianapolis. Max, 132 00:08:46,280 --> 00:08:49,680 Speaker 1: I'm sure you recall when this Vegas suitcase was first 133 00:08:49,720 --> 00:08:54,120 Speaker 1: discovered in Indianapolis with obviously you don't know whether the 134 00:08:54,240 --> 00:08:57,320 Speaker 1: child is from Vegas or Indianapolis or somewhere else. In 135 00:08:57,360 --> 00:09:00,800 Speaker 1: the last hours we're learning it was Atlanta. U. Yeah, 136 00:09:00,880 --> 00:09:03,760 Speaker 1: I mean it was. I remember when the story came 137 00:09:03,840 --> 00:09:06,600 Speaker 1: in and you know, the police had put out the 138 00:09:06,640 --> 00:09:09,559 Speaker 1: picture of this suitcase. It was shocking this kind of thing, 139 00:09:09,600 --> 00:09:11,720 Speaker 1: doesn't you know. We don't see this kind of thing 140 00:09:11,760 --> 00:09:15,400 Speaker 1: every day. We rarely see this. And yeah, there were 141 00:09:15,440 --> 00:09:18,000 Speaker 1: so many questions that it's such a mystery. Where is 142 00:09:18,040 --> 00:09:20,240 Speaker 1: this kid from? Why was he found out in the 143 00:09:20,280 --> 00:09:24,360 Speaker 1: woods in rural southern Indiana. There were just so many 144 00:09:24,440 --> 00:09:27,800 Speaker 1: questions for so long, and police really, from what we 145 00:09:27,800 --> 00:09:30,880 Speaker 1: could tell, had nothing to go on. And luckily they 146 00:09:30,920 --> 00:09:33,080 Speaker 1: were able to, you know, to find out some things 147 00:09:33,080 --> 00:09:36,120 Speaker 1: and officially give this this little boy in the suitcase 148 00:09:36,120 --> 00:09:38,720 Speaker 1: the name too. Jo Scott Morgan is joining US Professor 149 00:09:38,760 --> 00:09:41,840 Speaker 1: Forensics Jacksonville State University, an author of Blood Beneath My 150 00:09:41,920 --> 00:09:45,840 Speaker 1: Feet on Amazon, hosts of Bodybacks with Joe Scott Morgan. 151 00:09:45,960 --> 00:09:49,840 Speaker 1: Joe Scott, what's the first thing detectives would do in 152 00:09:49,880 --> 00:09:52,559 Speaker 1: a case like this? Well, you know, the way it's 153 00:09:52,600 --> 00:09:56,160 Speaker 1: been presented is that the suitcase was essentially found in 154 00:09:56,880 --> 00:10:00,960 Speaker 1: a really really isolated area, Nancy A. And if you will, 155 00:10:01,040 --> 00:10:04,120 Speaker 1: and can you imagine walking out into a forested area 156 00:10:04,240 --> 00:10:06,640 Speaker 1: for those that haven't seen this image of the suitcase, 157 00:10:07,120 --> 00:10:10,600 Speaker 1: and it's it's typical Las Vegas, you know, the appearance 158 00:10:10,600 --> 00:10:14,199 Speaker 1: of this thing. It's it's bright it's eye catching, and 159 00:10:14,320 --> 00:10:19,920 Speaker 1: it's oddly positioned end this specific location, So you know, 160 00:10:19,960 --> 00:10:22,600 Speaker 1: you have to ask the question, how did this item 161 00:10:22,880 --> 00:10:26,640 Speaker 1: wind up in this very rural area and it's standing 162 00:10:26,679 --> 00:10:29,560 Speaker 1: alone there? Just can you imagine just on this forested 163 00:10:29,600 --> 00:10:32,600 Speaker 1: floor where this guy's looking for mushrooms? You'd secure the 164 00:10:32,679 --> 00:10:35,839 Speaker 1: area first off and then document it as best as 165 00:10:35,880 --> 00:10:38,680 Speaker 1: you can, because this is highly regular to find this. 166 00:10:38,760 --> 00:10:41,360 Speaker 1: It's not like it's just discarded on the side of 167 00:10:41,360 --> 00:10:44,000 Speaker 1: the road, down in a ditch or something. It's sitting 168 00:10:44,040 --> 00:10:47,320 Speaker 1: out in a wooded area. So you think, I think 169 00:10:47,480 --> 00:10:50,400 Speaker 1: probably that it is purposed to be there, That is 170 00:10:50,440 --> 00:10:54,200 Speaker 1: that maybe somebody wanted this to be found. Well, I 171 00:10:54,200 --> 00:10:56,360 Speaker 1: don't know if it took a mushroom hunter to find it. 172 00:10:56,440 --> 00:10:59,280 Speaker 1: Joe Scott Morgan I got pretty seriously anybody ever thought 173 00:10:59,280 --> 00:11:16,000 Speaker 1: it would be found? Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, Steve Kramer, 174 00:11:16,120 --> 00:11:22,000 Speaker 1: former FBI and federal prosecutor, President and Dago Solutions who 175 00:11:22,160 --> 00:11:25,760 Speaker 1: led to the identification of the Golden State Killer. Steve A. Kramer, 176 00:11:26,080 --> 00:11:29,680 Speaker 1: how do you go about how did they identify the 177 00:11:29,800 --> 00:11:33,600 Speaker 1: body as Little Tyro In this particular case, I think 178 00:11:33,679 --> 00:11:37,600 Speaker 1: it was a combination of single prints that were on 179 00:11:37,600 --> 00:11:40,240 Speaker 1: the suitcase. I think that was the meaning. I'm I'm 180 00:11:40,280 --> 00:11:42,840 Speaker 1: not sure if they actually use DNA on this or not. 181 00:11:43,880 --> 00:11:47,080 Speaker 1: I think you're right. I think you're absolutely right, Steve Kramer, 182 00:11:47,120 --> 00:11:50,760 Speaker 1: Steve joining us from Indago Solutions. Guys, take listen to 183 00:11:50,760 --> 00:11:54,040 Speaker 1: our friends at WSB. Thirty seven year old jan Anderson 184 00:11:54,160 --> 00:11:57,680 Speaker 1: is now charged with murder as that no crime scene 185 00:11:57,800 --> 00:12:02,600 Speaker 1: evidence technologies were spared in this case. According to court documents, 186 00:12:02,640 --> 00:12:05,920 Speaker 1: police identified Anderson through fingerprints on trash bags used to 187 00:12:05,920 --> 00:12:09,319 Speaker 1: wrap the child's body, and autopsy report shows Jordan did 188 00:12:09,360 --> 00:12:13,319 Speaker 1: not suffer any signs of physical trauma. The autopsy listed 189 00:12:13,360 --> 00:12:16,400 Speaker 1: the cause of death as electro light and balance that 190 00:12:16,520 --> 00:12:20,240 Speaker 1: caused a viral gastronitis. Yeah, and that is dehydration of 191 00:12:20,360 --> 00:12:24,080 Speaker 1: Police believe after dumping that body that Anderson went to 192 00:12:24,240 --> 00:12:27,480 Speaker 1: California with a woman named don Coleman. Investigators were able 193 00:12:27,520 --> 00:12:30,440 Speaker 1: to rest Coleman in San Francisco, but they have yet 194 00:12:30,480 --> 00:12:32,880 Speaker 1: to track down Anderson. They are still looking for her. 195 00:12:33,240 --> 00:12:37,040 Speaker 1: So Mommy's fingerprints, Steve crame where you called it, were 196 00:12:37,200 --> 00:12:42,240 Speaker 1: all over that trash bag, so I guess. Then Steve 197 00:12:42,320 --> 00:12:46,160 Speaker 1: Creme where they find mommy. And then they can deduce 198 00:12:46,520 --> 00:12:50,000 Speaker 1: that it's baby Chiro. Was that your thinking, Steve, Yeah, correct, 199 00:12:50,000 --> 00:12:54,640 Speaker 1: that's I think the logical deducement. Once they did some 200 00:12:54,760 --> 00:12:59,679 Speaker 1: additional background information on Anderson, I think it was clear 201 00:12:59,760 --> 00:13:02,480 Speaker 1: that she was traveling apparently all over the country with 202 00:13:02,480 --> 00:13:07,040 Speaker 1: her child and with her friend Don Coleman, whose fingerprints 203 00:13:07,080 --> 00:13:10,640 Speaker 1: also I understand we're found on the suitcase. Oh okay, 204 00:13:10,720 --> 00:13:14,760 Speaker 1: right there, Wait a minute, so Max Lewis joining us 205 00:13:14,800 --> 00:13:19,679 Speaker 1: investigative reporter with Fox fifty nine. We know that mommy 206 00:13:19,960 --> 00:13:27,520 Speaker 1: and her friend, her running buddy, left fingerprints all over 207 00:13:28,800 --> 00:13:32,600 Speaker 1: the trash bag. But I mean think about that image, 208 00:13:32,600 --> 00:13:37,960 Speaker 1: putting the child in a trash bag and in a 209 00:13:38,040 --> 00:13:42,600 Speaker 1: suitcase and leaving it. Max Lewis, I want you to 210 00:13:42,640 --> 00:13:46,840 Speaker 1: take a listen to our friends w LKY and THHR. 211 00:13:47,280 --> 00:13:50,880 Speaker 1: On April fourteenth, investigators say cell phone towers and a 212 00:13:50,960 --> 00:13:55,280 Speaker 1: home security camera pleased Anderson and Coleman in Pecan, Indiana, 213 00:13:55,679 --> 00:13:58,599 Speaker 1: near the wooded area where Jordan's body was found. This 214 00:13:58,720 --> 00:14:02,240 Speaker 1: whole case is all about justice for Cairo. That's the 215 00:14:02,280 --> 00:14:05,080 Speaker 1: only thing this case has ever been about. Investigators found 216 00:14:05,120 --> 00:14:07,880 Speaker 1: a fingerprint on a trash bag in the suitcase with 217 00:14:07,960 --> 00:14:11,080 Speaker 1: the boy's body. In June, the fingerprint match was made 218 00:14:11,080 --> 00:14:14,200 Speaker 1: to thirty seven year old to one Ander Center. Another 219 00:14:14,280 --> 00:14:17,160 Speaker 1: fingerprint from the trash bag in the suitcase matched forty 220 00:14:17,240 --> 00:14:20,400 Speaker 1: year old Don Coleman. The cell phones of both women 221 00:14:20,480 --> 00:14:23,479 Speaker 1: placed them in the area of Peak in April fourteenth, 222 00:14:23,600 --> 00:14:27,160 Speaker 1: two days before the suitcase was found. Coleman's social media 223 00:14:27,160 --> 00:14:30,240 Speaker 1: accounts include photos and videos of her with a Las 224 00:14:30,360 --> 00:14:34,640 Speaker 1: Vegas suitcase straight out to Max Lewis, So what role 225 00:14:34,960 --> 00:14:41,280 Speaker 1: did cell phone pings play and the identification of the 226 00:14:41,400 --> 00:14:45,520 Speaker 1: mother as a suspect, It played a huge role the police. 227 00:14:45,800 --> 00:14:48,640 Speaker 1: You know, they were both in the Metro Louisville area 228 00:14:48,840 --> 00:14:52,120 Speaker 1: for quite a while, and so once they sort of 229 00:14:52,720 --> 00:14:55,920 Speaker 1: you know, got their fingerprints, made the connection to them, 230 00:14:55,960 --> 00:14:58,880 Speaker 1: they started piecing all of this stuff together. They had, 231 00:14:58,960 --> 00:15:02,640 Speaker 1: as you've heard, been Chris crossing the country together. Once 232 00:15:02,680 --> 00:15:05,720 Speaker 1: they got into Louisville, they you know, kinged there which 233 00:15:05,760 --> 00:15:08,840 Speaker 1: is close to where this suitcase was found in the 234 00:15:08,840 --> 00:15:12,120 Speaker 1: wooded areas, not too far outside Metro Louisville, and they 235 00:15:12,240 --> 00:15:14,360 Speaker 1: used those cell phone powers and were able to show 236 00:15:14,360 --> 00:15:17,920 Speaker 1: that they were in the exact vicinity where that suitcase 237 00:15:18,200 --> 00:15:22,040 Speaker 1: was found. Obviously, no coincidence there, And I bet anything, 238 00:15:22,160 --> 00:15:25,680 Speaker 1: Joe Scott Morgan, Professor Forensics, that the two cell phones 239 00:15:25,720 --> 00:15:30,640 Speaker 1: were traveling together, the Devil and the Devil's Minion. Hey, 240 00:15:31,200 --> 00:15:33,920 Speaker 1: you know what it reminds me of, Joe Scott Morgan. 241 00:15:34,280 --> 00:15:36,400 Speaker 1: It reminds me of the case. You may wonder why 242 00:15:36,440 --> 00:15:44,280 Speaker 1: at first Vanessa gim the beautiful young military females, she 243 00:15:44,520 --> 00:15:49,520 Speaker 1: was murdered by another guy in the military, her superior 244 00:15:49,920 --> 00:15:55,800 Speaker 1: as I would call Aaron Robinson. She was murdered, dismembered, burned, 245 00:15:56,800 --> 00:16:00,440 Speaker 1: and buried. It basically shallow gray. And they tried to 246 00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:03,480 Speaker 1: put cement on top of her. And when I say they, 247 00:16:03,680 --> 00:16:08,520 Speaker 1: here's my point. Do you recall the name Cecily Aguilar, Yes, 248 00:16:09,120 --> 00:16:13,680 Speaker 1: Robinson's married girlfriend. Can you imagine the two of them 249 00:16:14,760 --> 00:16:19,400 Speaker 1: would that fire trying to burn Vanessa's body and it 250 00:16:19,440 --> 00:16:23,600 Speaker 1: went so high up the fire actually burned the leaves 251 00:16:23,640 --> 00:16:28,800 Speaker 1: in the trees above where they were trying to burn her. Again, 252 00:16:28,880 --> 00:16:31,560 Speaker 1: it's like which is dancing around the caldron? Yeah, how 253 00:16:31,560 --> 00:16:34,200 Speaker 1: do you get two people to enter into an agreement 254 00:16:34,200 --> 00:16:37,040 Speaker 1: where they're going to do this to this baby like this? 255 00:16:37,280 --> 00:16:40,280 Speaker 1: And Nancy, I don't want to gloss over this whole 256 00:16:40,320 --> 00:16:44,200 Speaker 1: gastro into ridous thing. Thank you. I don't either go ahead, 257 00:16:44,800 --> 00:16:47,440 Speaker 1: as horrible as it sounds, it would have been more 258 00:16:48,080 --> 00:16:52,040 Speaker 1: more merciful if that even exists in this context, to 259 00:16:52,240 --> 00:16:54,920 Speaker 1: put this baby out of his misery. Gastro enter is 260 00:16:55,000 --> 00:16:56,880 Speaker 1: essentially what he had with stomach flu and we can 261 00:16:56,920 --> 00:17:00,520 Speaker 1: all identify with that, but it was untreated. Nancy. You 262 00:17:00,520 --> 00:17:02,320 Speaker 1: remember when our babies were little and we'd go out 263 00:17:02,360 --> 00:17:04,640 Speaker 1: and get them pedia light perhaps or make the pedia 264 00:17:04,720 --> 00:17:08,679 Speaker 1: light popsicles because they've got a tummy problem. And his 265 00:17:08,800 --> 00:17:12,359 Speaker 1: bowel was so inflamed, and that's what they found at autopsy. 266 00:17:12,480 --> 00:17:15,320 Speaker 1: That was what was evidence there. His bowel was so 267 00:17:15,480 --> 00:17:17,960 Speaker 1: inflamed that it led to his death and he would 268 00:17:17,960 --> 00:17:20,720 Speaker 1: have been vomiting. Plus he would have had severe stomach 269 00:17:20,760 --> 00:17:24,520 Speaker 1: cramps where he would be doubled over. And probably the 270 00:17:24,560 --> 00:17:27,479 Speaker 1: worst of this is that he would have had like 271 00:17:27,720 --> 00:17:31,960 Speaker 1: explosive bowel movements as well explosive diarrhea essentially, and he 272 00:17:32,040 --> 00:17:35,600 Speaker 1: was going on. This is the horror. He's going untreated. 273 00:17:35,680 --> 00:17:38,440 Speaker 1: They couldn't even give this baby electrolytes, which you can 274 00:17:38,440 --> 00:17:40,879 Speaker 1: find in any number of things like pedia light, or 275 00:17:41,040 --> 00:17:43,920 Speaker 1: take him to the dock in a box, no offense, 276 00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:46,720 Speaker 1: all u mds. They hate being called that. Yeah, it 277 00:17:46,720 --> 00:17:48,800 Speaker 1: would have been It would have been that simple. They 278 00:17:48,800 --> 00:17:50,679 Speaker 1: could have just hung an ivy on this baby and 279 00:17:50,720 --> 00:17:55,120 Speaker 1: he would have potentially survived. But they stood by, sat by, 280 00:17:55,480 --> 00:17:59,480 Speaker 1: the two of these women and let him suffer like that. 281 00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:06,320 Speaker 1: Just think about your intestines swollen, red, hurting. Why do 282 00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:09,479 Speaker 1: you get that, J Scott, It's as a result of 283 00:18:09,560 --> 00:18:12,239 Speaker 1: this absence of electrolytes. Now, I mean, how do you 284 00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:15,680 Speaker 1: get the diarrhea and the uncontrolled vomiting to start with? 285 00:18:15,920 --> 00:18:18,639 Speaker 1: Where does that come from? Well, this is as a 286 00:18:18,680 --> 00:18:23,360 Speaker 1: result of the viral gastroentorritus. And they're saying viral. So 287 00:18:23,440 --> 00:18:27,840 Speaker 1: he literally had some type of virus in his body, Okay, 288 00:18:27,880 --> 00:18:30,280 Speaker 1: like a norovirus or one of these things that floats 289 00:18:30,280 --> 00:18:33,639 Speaker 1: around that leads to a viral infection and many times 290 00:18:33,640 --> 00:18:36,800 Speaker 1: it'll set in in your gut like this. And so 291 00:18:36,840 --> 00:18:40,919 Speaker 1: as you're losing all of these fluids, he's becoming dehydrated, Nancy. 292 00:18:40,960 --> 00:18:44,000 Speaker 1: So he's losing these little electrolytes, and there's a variety 293 00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:46,560 Speaker 1: of them. You've got sodium and chloride and potassium, but 294 00:18:46,640 --> 00:18:50,480 Speaker 1: basically they're kind of the guardrails that keep our heart functioning, 295 00:18:50,880 --> 00:18:53,520 Speaker 1: our brain functioning. It keeps us You know, he could 296 00:18:53,520 --> 00:18:56,840 Speaker 1: have had a seizure. Well, Joe Scott, sorry to interrupt you, 297 00:18:56,880 --> 00:19:01,760 Speaker 1: but according to mommy, you're perfectly wrong. Oh really, because 298 00:19:02,080 --> 00:19:04,800 Speaker 1: she believes it had nothing to do with the virus 299 00:19:05,240 --> 00:19:10,200 Speaker 1: and it had everything to do with the devil. Take 300 00:19:10,240 --> 00:19:15,719 Speaker 1: a listen to our cut thirty three wt r n S. 301 00:19:15,920 --> 00:19:19,040 Speaker 1: Social media post from both women then indicate they thought 302 00:19:19,080 --> 00:19:22,639 Speaker 1: the boy was demon possessed. Eight days before the body 303 00:19:22,720 --> 00:19:26,480 Speaker 1: was discovered, Coleman posted, nothing is what it seems and 304 00:19:26,600 --> 00:19:30,000 Speaker 1: we are catering to evil beings and children avatars that 305 00:19:30,080 --> 00:19:33,760 Speaker 1: aren't even children, and five days before the body was discovered, 306 00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:37,439 Speaker 1: Anderson posted, I have survived the death attacks from my 307 00:19:37,520 --> 00:19:40,040 Speaker 1: five year old throughout the five years he has been alive. 308 00:19:40,600 --> 00:19:43,439 Speaker 1: I've been able to weaken his powers through our blood. 309 00:19:43,640 --> 00:19:47,960 Speaker 1: The probable cause affidavit shows Anderson sent Facebook messages claiming 310 00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:50,600 Speaker 1: her son was a demon who tried to harm her. 311 00:19:50,760 --> 00:19:53,280 Speaker 1: She wrote to an Indiana pastor saying she believed he 312 00:19:53,359 --> 00:19:56,800 Speaker 1: was actually a hundred years old and she used blood 313 00:19:56,920 --> 00:20:01,119 Speaker 1: for some kind of exorcism. In reality, he a defenseless 314 00:20:01,160 --> 00:20:03,639 Speaker 1: five year old boy. Do I have to say the 315 00:20:03,680 --> 00:20:09,800 Speaker 1: words Laurie Valoe, cult mom? Laurie Valoe and her what 316 00:20:09,920 --> 00:20:14,960 Speaker 1: was he? Jackie? Her fourth or fifth husband? Chad daybel 317 00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:18,880 Speaker 1: His wife mysteriously died in her sleep. She was as 318 00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:21,480 Speaker 1: healthy as a horse, and she just ran a marathon 319 00:20:22,160 --> 00:20:26,120 Speaker 1: and then she dies in her sleep. They killed her. 320 00:20:26,359 --> 00:20:29,680 Speaker 1: I don't know how they did it, but they did it. 321 00:20:29,680 --> 00:20:38,480 Speaker 1: It's a crutch using some completely opposite religion of what 322 00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:44,280 Speaker 1: Christ intended. Not that I'm an expert, but I'm pretty 323 00:20:44,320 --> 00:20:47,880 Speaker 1: sure this is not what he had in mind. Calling 324 00:20:47,960 --> 00:20:51,040 Speaker 1: your five year old child the devil and demanding an 325 00:20:51,119 --> 00:20:57,040 Speaker 1: exorcism with us. Doctor Thomas Plant you heard him earlier, 326 00:20:57,040 --> 00:21:01,480 Speaker 1: Professor Psychology and Religious Studies, but a professor Psychiatry and 327 00:21:01,520 --> 00:21:05,760 Speaker 1: Behavioral Science, is at Stanford and the editor of Spirituality 328 00:21:05,840 --> 00:21:09,880 Speaker 1: and Clinical Practice, author of Human Interaction with the Divine, 329 00:21:10,080 --> 00:21:16,160 Speaker 1: the Sacred, and the Deceased. Psychological Scientific and Theological Perspectives. 330 00:21:17,320 --> 00:21:21,600 Speaker 1: Doctor Plant, what do you make of this? Well, you know, 331 00:21:21,760 --> 00:21:25,240 Speaker 1: I think the bottom line is, you know, psychopathology can 332 00:21:25,280 --> 00:21:29,280 Speaker 1: be a really terrible and brutal thing, and you can't 333 00:21:29,280 --> 00:21:33,520 Speaker 1: diagnose someone from afar but what it sounds like is 334 00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:37,560 Speaker 1: that this as what given the data that's been presented, 335 00:21:37,960 --> 00:21:41,160 Speaker 1: is that it sounds like this person has a psychotic disorder, 336 00:21:41,280 --> 00:21:45,679 Speaker 1: perhaps as schizophrenia could be, bipolar could be Since she 337 00:21:45,760 --> 00:21:50,560 Speaker 1: has another person involved with this, according to the report, 338 00:21:50,960 --> 00:21:54,280 Speaker 1: you would wonder about what's called a shared delusional disorder 339 00:21:54,520 --> 00:21:59,679 Speaker 1: or a feliad where two people share the same delusion. Right, 340 00:21:59,720 --> 00:22:03,400 Speaker 1: are you speaking French or Latin? Flee I do? That's two? 341 00:22:04,280 --> 00:22:07,400 Speaker 1: Lee I do is French. It means a folly of two, 342 00:22:07,840 --> 00:22:13,440 Speaker 1: and that's a diagnosis also called shared delusional disorder. Doctor Plant, 343 00:22:14,080 --> 00:22:18,040 Speaker 1: I am just a JD. You are the professor of 344 00:22:18,119 --> 00:22:21,640 Speaker 1: psychology and religious studies. Hold on, just there's so much 345 00:22:21,680 --> 00:22:25,560 Speaker 1: at once. Folly of two f lee I do? And 346 00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:29,199 Speaker 1: you're because I can accept that one person could be 347 00:22:29,240 --> 00:22:33,040 Speaker 1: schizophrenic or have some type of psychotic disorder, but two 348 00:22:33,080 --> 00:22:37,320 Speaker 1: of them together in the same room and they agree 349 00:22:37,359 --> 00:22:39,600 Speaker 1: to kill a baby and fold them up like a 350 00:22:39,640 --> 00:22:43,480 Speaker 1: blanket and put them in a suitcase. That to me 351 00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:49,720 Speaker 1: is unreasonable that there would be two people equally psychotic, 352 00:22:49,760 --> 00:22:54,440 Speaker 1: which leads me with one answer. They're murderers. They knew 353 00:22:54,440 --> 00:22:57,480 Speaker 1: what they were doing. They're hiding behind some crazy religious 354 00:22:57,480 --> 00:23:00,720 Speaker 1: belief and they're mean as hell. Well. As I mentioned, 355 00:23:01,040 --> 00:23:04,120 Speaker 1: you can't diagnose from a far but according to the 356 00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:11,200 Speaker 1: American Psychiatric Association, there are a legitimate diagnosis called palia 357 00:23:11,280 --> 00:23:14,119 Speaker 1: do or now it's called shared delusional disorder, and you 358 00:23:14,160 --> 00:23:17,840 Speaker 1: do see it, and I've seen some of those cases. No, no, 359 00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:21,040 Speaker 1: it's it's pretty unusual, but it's it's there, just like 360 00:23:21,080 --> 00:23:24,720 Speaker 1: for example, schizophrenia affects maybe about one out of one 361 00:23:24,800 --> 00:23:29,880 Speaker 1: hundred people, which is and falia do or shared delusional 362 00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:32,520 Speaker 1: disorder would probably be about one out of a thousand 363 00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:35,320 Speaker 1: people or so. M That may or may not be 364 00:23:35,359 --> 00:23:38,040 Speaker 1: the diagnosis, But I think the bottom line is you've 365 00:23:38,040 --> 00:23:42,119 Speaker 1: got major psychopathology here, and I think that's probably pretty clear. 366 00:23:42,560 --> 00:23:46,679 Speaker 1: And the question is, you know, what what do you 367 00:23:46,760 --> 00:23:50,520 Speaker 1: do when you have a situation where people have such 368 00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:56,480 Speaker 1: severe disorders and they have children in their possession or 369 00:23:56,520 --> 00:24:02,320 Speaker 1: in their custody. That brings into issues of child protection 370 00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:07,320 Speaker 1: and so forth, which are which are often challenging to 371 00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:11,399 Speaker 1: deal with them. There was probably early signs. This probably 372 00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:14,000 Speaker 1: wasn't the first sign that this child was in trouble. 373 00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:19,160 Speaker 1: To Steve Kramer, former FBI attorney, Federal prosecutor, President, I'm 374 00:24:19,160 --> 00:24:24,280 Speaker 1: in Dago solutions, you know what. I am a Christian, 375 00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:27,919 Speaker 1: I'm seeking the truth every day trying to live it. 376 00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:35,320 Speaker 1: But this theory of hiding behind your religion in order 377 00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:38,720 Speaker 1: to do horrible things, I'm not quite sure how to 378 00:24:38,760 --> 00:24:42,400 Speaker 1: call that out. And we see it all the time. Well, 379 00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:48,000 Speaker 1: I mentioned calt mom Laurie Valo using her apocalyptic religious beliefs, 380 00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:52,199 Speaker 1: and she gets slung up with Chad day Bell the 381 00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:54,200 Speaker 1: prophet and for those of you that can't see me, 382 00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:58,240 Speaker 1: absolutely used air quoties on that. And I've seen over 383 00:24:58,359 --> 00:25:03,600 Speaker 1: and over and over Steve Cramer parents. That's some religious 384 00:25:03,640 --> 00:25:10,400 Speaker 1: belief and they ended up starving their children or beating 385 00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:14,240 Speaker 1: them all in the name of Dare I say it God? 386 00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:18,679 Speaker 1: And frankly, I mean I hear doctor Plant. I know 387 00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:24,040 Speaker 1: he's a lot smarter than me, for sure, but it 388 00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:28,640 Speaker 1: just doesn't make sense to me that a mother who 389 00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:33,200 Speaker 1: could drive hide her baby still on the lamb by 390 00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:37,879 Speaker 1: the way, she's crazy, but she can elude police and 391 00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:42,720 Speaker 1: plan her next spot. She's still not caught. She's got 392 00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:46,320 Speaker 1: Indiana State troopers standing on their ears trying to find her. 393 00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:49,560 Speaker 1: There's a nation way to learn for her. So how 394 00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:52,880 Speaker 1: crazy is she? Is she crazy like a fox? Steve Kramer? 395 00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:57,960 Speaker 1: Does she have some psychosis? And if so, do you 396 00:25:58,080 --> 00:26:03,720 Speaker 1: really believe both of them are delisional? I heard what 397 00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:07,960 Speaker 1: doctor Plant said about Philly. I do folly of two 398 00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:13,959 Speaker 1: shared delisional disorder? Not buying h I convict both of 399 00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:18,800 Speaker 1: these women. Literally, their fingerprints are all over the garbage bag. 400 00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:22,760 Speaker 1: They stuff this child into your turn Cramer, Yeah, I 401 00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:26,480 Speaker 1: mean to call this a religion. Come on, that's nonsense. 402 00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:30,760 Speaker 1: I mean, this is you know, Babbyling, not you, doctor Plant, 403 00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:33,760 Speaker 1: not you. No, no, no, of course that. The last 404 00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:36,200 Speaker 1: thing I want to do is get a preacher man. Okay, 405 00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:40,320 Speaker 1: I don't even need that in my life. Go ahead, Cramer. 406 00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:43,880 Speaker 1: Just let's make sure doctor Plant knows it's not about him. 407 00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:45,960 Speaker 1: But what do you say? That is exactly what they're 408 00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:48,119 Speaker 1: going to claim a trial if they're ever both caught. 409 00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:51,399 Speaker 1: Go ahead, exactly. I mean putting the stuff out on 410 00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:55,239 Speaker 1: Facebook and Twitter about you know, their child is you 411 00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:59,639 Speaker 1: know an avatar in my child? Some help possessed or 412 00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:03,359 Speaker 1: to do some healing and I had to do some killing. 413 00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:06,639 Speaker 1: I mean the stuff they're saying, I mean This is actually, 414 00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:10,119 Speaker 1: unfortunately not that uncommon. You know, we see cases like 415 00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:13,720 Speaker 1: you mentioned the Laurie Vallo Chad day Bell case where 416 00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:17,240 Speaker 1: she killed allegedly her own children. We see other cases 417 00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:21,520 Speaker 1: a lot of times when we find children, young children 418 00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:24,960 Speaker 1: like this said, are incapable of taking care of themselves, 419 00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:29,040 Speaker 1: that are abandoned someplace dead. The bodies when we eventually 420 00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:33,040 Speaker 1: identify the parents, they are off with having some affair, 421 00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:36,280 Speaker 1: the child was an inconvenience, or they're on some drug 422 00:27:36,359 --> 00:27:39,919 Speaker 1: high again, the child's an inconvenience. So that aspect is 423 00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:43,240 Speaker 1: not really uncommon. And I think in this particular case, 424 00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:45,919 Speaker 1: I mean, you look at it. I mean, after she 425 00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:49,520 Speaker 1: was released from jail on April eleventh, you know, she 426 00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:52,320 Speaker 1: said I had to do some healing and killing, and 427 00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:55,480 Speaker 1: that was around April twelfth, and you know, the body 428 00:27:55,520 --> 00:27:58,720 Speaker 1: was found two days later, April fourteen, And all this 429 00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:02,399 Speaker 1: point out one key thing with this, and you mentioned 430 00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:06,719 Speaker 1: it earlier to Nancy, is they didn't think they were 431 00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:09,480 Speaker 1: doing anything wrong. And why to hide the baby or 432 00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:11,960 Speaker 1: the five year old in a suitcase and put it 433 00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:13,680 Speaker 1: out in the field. And why are they on the lamb? Now? 434 00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:15,760 Speaker 1: What are they running from? That they haven't done anything wrong, 435 00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:19,480 Speaker 1: So clearly she knows that she's done something wrong. But 436 00:28:19,480 --> 00:28:23,520 Speaker 1: what I find most interesting is her accomplice, John Coleman. 437 00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:28,080 Speaker 1: They were both wanted on warrants of neglect of a 438 00:28:28,119 --> 00:28:33,199 Speaker 1: dependent and obstruction of justice, and Coleman was arrested on 439 00:28:33,320 --> 00:28:37,719 Speaker 1: the nineteenth October. Less than a week later, those charges 440 00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:43,560 Speaker 1: were upgraded to murder against miss Anderson. So obviously she 441 00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:46,640 Speaker 1: probably said something to the police exactly what happened with 442 00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:49,280 Speaker 1: this child that allowed the police and the prosecutors to 443 00:28:49,360 --> 00:28:51,960 Speaker 1: upgrade the charges from neglect to murder. But I mean, 444 00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:56,920 Speaker 1: there's such a history Steve hiding behind some kind of religion. 445 00:28:56,960 --> 00:28:59,760 Speaker 1: Why are your child dies? Let's say there's two year 446 00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:03,680 Speaker 1: old old I mean, listen last night Ella Grace, her parents, 447 00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:07,760 Speaker 1: Jonathan and Grace Ford, thought it was God's will there 448 00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:10,400 Speaker 1: a little two year old die. Then there's nine year 449 00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:14,320 Speaker 1: old Jason Lockhart out of Oklahoma, much the same, sixteen 450 00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:19,040 Speaker 1: year old Neil Bigly, much the same, And they hide 451 00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:25,640 Speaker 1: behind religion while their child dies. That's what I'm seeing. 452 00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:29,960 Speaker 1: I mean, Max lewis fifty nine joining us, so I'm Indianapolis. 453 00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:34,920 Speaker 1: What's the reaction to mommy claiming her child was possessed. Well, 454 00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:39,880 Speaker 1: you know it's I am sort of speechless myself, and 455 00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:42,800 Speaker 1: I think that's the way everybody else was. You know, 456 00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:45,880 Speaker 1: she had tried to reach out to this priest in 457 00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:49,320 Speaker 1: southeastern Indiana who was a well known performer of exorcist, 458 00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:54,760 Speaker 1: Vatican trained exorcist, and I wasn't able to get a 459 00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:57,560 Speaker 1: hold of him. And so that claim, I think, or 460 00:29:57,600 --> 00:30:00,320 Speaker 1: that sort of claim from her and the Facebook post 461 00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:03,920 Speaker 1: that you were mentioning, I think was really shocking everybody. 462 00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:05,920 Speaker 1: I do want to make a point about something that 463 00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:09,880 Speaker 1: doctor Plant said. He said that this child was likely 464 00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:13,160 Speaker 1: in danger before, or there were likely signed before. Well 465 00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:17,360 Speaker 1: there was. She was. Actually these two women, Mom and 466 00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:21,640 Speaker 1: Don Coleman actually got into a car chase, court records 467 00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:24,720 Speaker 1: showdown in South Carolina. They were running from the police, 468 00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:28,000 Speaker 1: going over ninety miles an hour on the interstate, and 469 00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:30,800 Speaker 1: the kid and the little boy, Cairo, was in the 470 00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:34,160 Speaker 1: car with them. I mean, that doesn't you know spell danger? 471 00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:38,160 Speaker 1: I don't know what does. So you know, clearly I 472 00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:40,800 Speaker 1: think what doctor Plant said is correct. This boy was 473 00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:44,760 Speaker 1: in danger before, had been in danger, and unfortunately the 474 00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:48,480 Speaker 1: peers of right Steps weren't taken and he ended up 475 00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:52,280 Speaker 1: in this suitcase dead. Why wasn't the baby taken away then, 476 00:30:53,040 --> 00:30:56,360 Speaker 1: Max Lewis, I mean, his siblings have been taken away, 477 00:30:56,720 --> 00:30:59,760 Speaker 1: Why not him? I don't know. You know, it's really 478 00:30:59,800 --> 00:31:03,440 Speaker 1: a mystery and something that probably authorities in South Carolina 479 00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:06,040 Speaker 1: maybe need to answer for. Because when this car chase 480 00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:10,320 Speaker 1: to end ended, you know, Anderson was the one driving, 481 00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:13,280 Speaker 1: the mom was the one driving, and then Don Coleman 482 00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:15,040 Speaker 1: was in the passenger seat. The baby was in the 483 00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:18,080 Speaker 1: backseat when this police chase ended because they ran out 484 00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:21,360 Speaker 1: of gas. They basically just dropped Don Coleman and the 485 00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:24,840 Speaker 1: child off at a motel and took the mom to jail, 486 00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:29,440 Speaker 1: and so she was the child was given right back 487 00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:32,680 Speaker 1: to them. Wow. Sounds like day facts the Farming family 488 00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:37,040 Speaker 1: and Children's Services on and again. Now they have another 489 00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:43,600 Speaker 1: damn child. Seemingly nobody but me cares because it keeps 490 00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:48,160 Speaker 1: happening every day. Children in horrible, dangerous situations are left 491 00:31:48,160 --> 00:31:54,240 Speaker 1: there because Child Protector Services does nothing. Now, speaking of exorcism, 492 00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:56,480 Speaker 1: taking list of our friends at Fox fifty nine, Yeah 493 00:31:56,520 --> 00:31:59,200 Speaker 1: for David in the case details a series of strange 494 00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:03,960 Speaker 1: social media post police see Kirol's mother scent about demons, exorcism, 495 00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:06,400 Speaker 1: and dark magic in the days before he was found. 496 00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:09,880 Speaker 1: On April twelfth, Anderson reached out to an Indianapolis priest, 497 00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:13,360 Speaker 1: Father Vincent Lampert, from the Archdiocese of Indianapolis on Twitter. 498 00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:16,240 Speaker 1: Father Lampert is one of dozens of priests who are 499 00:32:16,360 --> 00:32:18,920 Speaker 1: exorcists in the US. As you may know, and exorcist 500 00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:22,440 Speaker 1: is someone trained to cast out demons. Father Lampert told 501 00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:26,280 Speaker 1: us it's rare that a child dealing with quote demonic possession. 502 00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:30,600 Speaker 1: There's no such thing as an emergency exorcism. It really 503 00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:34,400 Speaker 1: begins with the person having a psychiatric evaluation by a 504 00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:39,320 Speaker 1: qualified psychologists or psychiatrists, and then having a medical examination 505 00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:43,600 Speaker 1: of the family doctor. Father Lampert says when someone contacts him, 506 00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:46,800 Speaker 1: he encourages them to talk to their pastor and their 507 00:32:46,840 --> 00:33:08,080 Speaker 1: family doctor. Time Stories with Nancy Grace to doctor Thomas Plant, 508 00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:12,800 Speaker 1: joining us professor Stamford University and author doctor Plant, What 509 00:33:12,960 --> 00:33:17,880 Speaker 1: exactly is an exorcism? Have you ever been present during 510 00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:21,040 Speaker 1: an exorcism? No, I haven't been present during an exorcism, 511 00:33:21,040 --> 00:33:25,040 Speaker 1: but I have worked with an exorcist, and he refers 512 00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:29,960 Speaker 1: patients to me. I refer patients to him. And an 513 00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:35,520 Speaker 1: exorcist is trained to perform a ritual. As you know, 514 00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:39,360 Speaker 1: the Catholic Church has lots of rituals, and this is 515 00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:45,240 Speaker 1: one a ritual that of training so that they it's 516 00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:48,480 Speaker 1: they're trains through the Vatican and so forth. The Vatican 517 00:33:48,560 --> 00:33:56,080 Speaker 1: approved and exorcists like them, this gentleman you just mentioned. Uh, 518 00:33:56,160 --> 00:33:58,880 Speaker 1: And including the exorcist that I've worked with, we'll say 519 00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:02,280 Speaker 1: that ninety nine point nine percent of the time of 520 00:34:02,320 --> 00:34:07,640 Speaker 1: cases are major psychopathology and what's necessary is a psychiatric 521 00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:12,000 Speaker 1: evaluation or medical evaluation and so forth, and their troubles 522 00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:16,719 Speaker 1: are really in that arena. Uh. And I think that's 523 00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:21,799 Speaker 1: that's true when it comes to religion. Sadly and tragically, 524 00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:25,840 Speaker 1: some people use religion for great harm and some people 525 00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:29,799 Speaker 1: use religion for great good. And I think that it's 526 00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:31,839 Speaker 1: sort of like a car. You know, a car can 527 00:34:31,880 --> 00:34:33,520 Speaker 1: be a great thing. It gets you where you want 528 00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:35,640 Speaker 1: to go, but a car in the hands of a 529 00:34:35,719 --> 00:34:39,560 Speaker 1: drunk driver is a terrible weapon. The same is true 530 00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:42,440 Speaker 1: with religion. In this case, as you said, this woman 531 00:34:43,160 --> 00:34:47,080 Speaker 1: may have been using those imagery and things like that 532 00:34:47,200 --> 00:34:53,920 Speaker 1: to justify her behavior, which is horrific. But you know, sadly, 533 00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:57,360 Speaker 1: that is a common phenomenon across the world, and it 534 00:34:57,680 --> 00:35:02,440 Speaker 1: always has been, where people project their troubles and whatnot 535 00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:06,960 Speaker 1: onto kind of religion and then justify their actions in 536 00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:11,359 Speaker 1: that way. You know, doctor Thomas Plant. There is one 537 00:35:11,440 --> 00:35:16,040 Speaker 1: thing I know for sure, and that is that I 538 00:35:16,160 --> 00:35:19,520 Speaker 1: know very very little. I know how to try a 539 00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:22,799 Speaker 1: murder case and any other criminal case. I know the 540 00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:25,600 Speaker 1: law at the back of my hand. That's pretty much it. Oh, 541 00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:27,759 Speaker 1: I know how to cook, I know how to do that. 542 00:35:29,560 --> 00:35:33,120 Speaker 1: But this is so far out of my league what 543 00:35:33,160 --> 00:35:36,239 Speaker 1: you're talking about, you know what, doctor Plant. I also 544 00:35:36,320 --> 00:35:41,560 Speaker 1: find it interesting that I'm sort of an intellectual snobbery. 545 00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:50,280 Speaker 1: Many people do not believe in exorcisms or demons or devils. 546 00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:58,239 Speaker 1: It does sound fantastical, that's true. But so does fly 547 00:35:58,320 --> 00:36:03,160 Speaker 1: into the moon, so tess the Hubble telescope. So many 548 00:36:03,239 --> 00:36:10,120 Speaker 1: things sound fantastical. And I think that it's narrow minded 549 00:36:10,480 --> 00:36:14,560 Speaker 1: for anyone to suggest what is and is not possible, 550 00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:23,320 Speaker 1: because clearly, extremely educated, learned people like yourself do believe 551 00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:29,440 Speaker 1: it is very very real. Somehow I've gotten off into 552 00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:33,920 Speaker 1: the validity or invalidity of exorcisms about which I know nothing. 553 00:36:35,320 --> 00:36:39,279 Speaker 1: I do know about crime, and what you said is 554 00:36:39,560 --> 00:36:45,800 Speaker 1: entirely true. Doctor Plant, just got Morgan. I know forensics, 555 00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:48,560 Speaker 1: I know crime, and that's what I'm going to fall 556 00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:52,160 Speaker 1: back home when I don't understand the rest. I want you, 557 00:36:52,280 --> 00:36:56,439 Speaker 1: specifically to take a listen to Courtney Spinelli Fox fifty nine. 558 00:36:56,680 --> 00:36:58,920 Speaker 1: A child who for months was only known as the 559 00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:01,719 Speaker 1: boy found in a suit case in rural Indiana now 560 00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:06,160 Speaker 1: has a name. Five year old Cairo Jordan Stuet has 561 00:37:06,200 --> 00:37:09,680 Speaker 1: a ruby second head. Cairo's paternal grandparents and great uncles 562 00:37:09,719 --> 00:37:12,319 Speaker 1: say they only learned he died one day ago. The 563 00:37:12,400 --> 00:37:14,800 Speaker 1: child they call a sweet boy would have turned six 564 00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:18,160 Speaker 1: this week. I would have wanted to know what kind 565 00:37:18,160 --> 00:37:21,640 Speaker 1: of person he would have come to be, things like 566 00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:23,759 Speaker 1: whether he would have grown up to play football like 567 00:37:23,840 --> 00:37:26,759 Speaker 1: his dad did when he was Younger. Authorities are still 568 00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:30,239 Speaker 1: trying to find Kiro's mother, Dejan Anderson, now charged in 569 00:37:30,360 --> 00:37:34,400 Speaker 1: his murder dash. Do you know that us know and 570 00:37:34,960 --> 00:37:38,120 Speaker 1: we would have easily talking how many children that just 571 00:37:38,280 --> 00:37:44,120 Speaker 1: got Morgan? Death investigator? Have you been at the murder scene, 572 00:37:44,200 --> 00:37:49,680 Speaker 1: the homicide saying, the death saying, the autopsy where mommy 573 00:37:49,920 --> 00:37:53,000 Speaker 1: or daddy is a killer, But the rest of the 574 00:37:53,040 --> 00:37:57,399 Speaker 1: family did nothing. They knew there was a problem. How 575 00:37:57,400 --> 00:38:00,000 Speaker 1: could this family not know Mommy was arrested for US 576 00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:03,399 Speaker 1: felony in South Carolina and got the child back. And 577 00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:07,400 Speaker 1: that's counting on the fact that the individual had contact 578 00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:09,600 Speaker 1: with her family. But lots of times you'll have these 579 00:38:09,640 --> 00:38:13,920 Speaker 1: individuals that will know, I mean, they will know that 580 00:38:14,520 --> 00:38:18,560 Speaker 1: what's going on within that household is wrong, and nobody 581 00:38:18,640 --> 00:38:21,880 Speaker 1: interdicts it because nobody wants to get crossways with the 582 00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:24,120 Speaker 1: family members, and nobody wants to create a problem with 583 00:38:24,160 --> 00:38:27,520 Speaker 1: the family members and all for what. Now, in this 584 00:38:27,560 --> 00:38:32,239 Speaker 1: particular case, you've got this baby who was abandoned like garbage. 585 00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:34,600 Speaker 1: Let's just face it. That's the way he was treated 586 00:38:34,719 --> 00:38:38,359 Speaker 1: out in the middle of the woods. And you can't 587 00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:40,759 Speaker 1: tell me there weren't red flags leading up to this. 588 00:38:40,800 --> 00:38:43,360 Speaker 1: I've seen this over and over and over again, and 589 00:38:43,920 --> 00:38:47,120 Speaker 1: we know that the mother moved around a lot. I 590 00:38:47,160 --> 00:38:49,600 Speaker 1: want to listen, Ji can't want to cut foward to 591 00:38:49,640 --> 00:38:53,480 Speaker 1: our cut number thirty eight, Fox fifty nine, listen. In 592 00:38:53,520 --> 00:38:56,680 Speaker 1: a series of posts, Anderson indicated she believed Cairo was 593 00:38:56,760 --> 00:39:00,799 Speaker 1: possessed family wishes. Anyone seeing these posts reached out to 594 00:39:00,920 --> 00:39:05,080 Speaker 1: offer help that could have saved Cairo, that could have 595 00:39:05,120 --> 00:39:08,440 Speaker 1: saved his mom, could have brought him back to Georgian 596 00:39:08,440 --> 00:39:10,160 Speaker 1: who could have helped him at whatever we're head to. 597 00:39:10,160 --> 00:39:12,560 Speaker 1: Even as they worked to grasp what happened to Cairo, 598 00:39:12,719 --> 00:39:16,600 Speaker 1: they're grateful for the strangers who never stopped fighting for justice. 599 00:39:16,840 --> 00:39:20,120 Speaker 1: We definitely want to think that people in Indiana who 600 00:39:20,200 --> 00:39:25,680 Speaker 1: did give him a proper burial, that was so nice 601 00:39:25,719 --> 00:39:29,760 Speaker 1: of them. His shows what kind of what humanity really is. Okay, 602 00:39:29,840 --> 00:39:34,040 Speaker 1: Maya's spinning right now because you've got the grandparents the 603 00:39:34,120 --> 00:39:37,360 Speaker 1: other family going Wow, I wish someone had done something. 604 00:39:37,880 --> 00:39:40,959 Speaker 1: What about you? You don't have social media. You didn't 605 00:39:41,040 --> 00:39:46,680 Speaker 1: know that this mom was posting her son is the devil. Well, 606 00:39:46,719 --> 00:39:51,239 Speaker 1: now he's dead and she is on the run. Tipline 607 00:39:51,360 --> 00:39:55,000 Speaker 1: eight eight eight four three seven six four three two. 608 00:39:55,880 --> 00:40:01,160 Speaker 1: May justice unfold. Goodbye friend three