WEBVTT - Béla Fleck 0:00:15.436 --> 0:00:23.276 Pushkin. Hey y'all, today we're featuring a conversation with the 0:00:23.316 --> 0:00:27.436 world's preeminent banjo player, Baila Fleck. Over the course of 0:00:27.436 --> 0:00:30.756 his four decade career, Bila's won numerous Grammys in a 0:00:30.876 --> 0:00:37.116 variety of surprising genres, including jazz, Latin, pop, and classical. 0:00:37.676 --> 0:00:40.876 Just last year, his latest release, My Bluegrass Heart, scored 0:00:40.956 --> 0:00:44.756 the Grammy for Best Bluegrass Album. In addition to Beila's 0:00:44.756 --> 0:00:48.676 innovative style and expert technique, he is also an advocate 0:00:48.716 --> 0:00:52.556 for keeping the banjo's rich historical tradition alive. In two 0:00:52.556 --> 0:00:55.076 thousand and eight, Baila made a pilgrimage to Africa to 0:00:55.116 --> 0:00:58.156 trace the origins of the banjo in the brilliant documentary 0:00:58.276 --> 0:01:01.556 Throw Down Your Heart. On today's episode, Bruce Helen talks 0:01:01.556 --> 0:01:04.116 to Beila about growing up in New York City, where 0:01:04.116 --> 0:01:06.476 he first fell in love with the banjo while watching, 0:01:06.516 --> 0:01:10.156 of all things, the Beverly Hillbillies. Baila also talks about 0:01:10.156 --> 0:01:13.996 how jazz giants like Chick Korea and Charlie Parker influenced 0:01:13.996 --> 0:01:18.516 his highly technical style, and Baila explains why he believes 0:01:18.516 --> 0:01:25.036 the banjo is far superior to the guitar. This is 0:01:25.116 --> 0:01:28.156 broken record line of notes for the Digital Age. I'm 0:01:28.196 --> 0:01:32.636 justin Michman. Here's Bruce Headlam with Baila Fleck. Now you've 0:01:32.676 --> 0:01:36.196 won I think fifteen Grammys something like. That's a lot 0:01:36.196 --> 0:01:38.796 of Grammys. Yeah. I was gonna say, you've been nominated 0:01:38.836 --> 0:01:42.116 in more Grammy categories than anybody else in the world, 0:01:42.476 --> 0:01:47.836 which is kind of incredible. You've done pops, yeah, and 0:01:47.916 --> 0:01:50.076 apparently Latin. I didn't know you've done that. Yeah, it's 0:01:50.116 --> 0:01:52.396 with Chick Korea. We got we wanted Latin Grammy. So 0:01:52.436 --> 0:01:54.356 I asked him about how you know, de count count 0:01:54.356 --> 0:01:57.396 the grant Latin Grammy as one of your Grammys and said, yeah, 0:01:57.436 --> 0:02:02.356 it's a Grammy, right. Yeah. So whenever people ask me 0:02:02.396 --> 0:02:05.436 how many I have, I don't you know. They said, well, 0:02:05.476 --> 0:02:07.396 we checked and he said you only have fifteen. I said, well, 0:02:07.396 --> 0:02:09.556 that doesn't matter. I mean, but Chicks said it was 0:02:10.236 --> 0:02:13.356 the Latin one counted, so I say, sixteen, Kuria said it, 0:02:13.356 --> 0:02:15.556 But I don't It's fine. One would have been fine, 0:02:15.836 --> 0:02:17.796 none would have been fine. You've got a lot, but 0:02:17.836 --> 0:02:21.356 in more categories, classical, all these other things. That's the 0:02:21.396 --> 0:02:23.996 fun thing. World music and classical and things like that 0:02:24.076 --> 0:02:26.916 in places that the band isn't typically heard. That's those 0:02:26.956 --> 0:02:29.796 are the ones that I get excited about usually, although 0:02:30.116 --> 0:02:32.876 just now winning the one for the bluegrass album, I've 0:02:32.876 --> 0:02:35.436 never won one from bluegrass albums after all of this time, 0:02:35.556 --> 0:02:38.036 So there was something really sweet about returning to the 0:02:38.116 --> 0:02:41.756 music and putting together like a very community album that 0:02:41.836 --> 0:02:45.916 brought together a lot of different age groups of excellent players, 0:02:46.436 --> 0:02:49.396 and doing my own music and winning a Grammate with 0:02:49.436 --> 0:02:51.916 it was sweet. I'd like to say I'm too cool 0:02:51.956 --> 0:02:54.076 to care, but it meant a lot to me. It 0:02:54.156 --> 0:02:56.076 was when you put the bluegrass in the title, it's 0:02:56.076 --> 0:02:59.596 my bluegrass heart. Yeah, a lot of great players. It's 0:02:59.636 --> 0:03:02.556 it's kind of a shred fest for our guitarists out there. 0:03:02.556 --> 0:03:05.836 There's some there's some ferocious playing, and there's some ferocious playing. 0:03:05.916 --> 0:03:08.276 I don't like the term shred because to me, it's like, oh, 0:03:08.316 --> 0:03:10.316 all you're doing is playing fast. When you think of shredding, 0:03:10.356 --> 0:03:13.836 it doesn't usually mean it's necessarily musical. So if it's 0:03:13.916 --> 0:03:16.636 musical shredding, I don't mind. But yeah, I mean, I 0:03:16.636 --> 0:03:18.796 wanted to be music. Now. If it's fast, you know, 0:03:18.796 --> 0:03:20.956 it's still got to be really good. There's a lot 0:03:21.076 --> 0:03:22.716 I mean a lot of variety, and the songs on 0:03:22.716 --> 0:03:26.516 this new album, something like hug Point sounds very irish. 0:03:26.836 --> 0:03:29.716 The other song that jumped out at me was the 0:03:29.716 --> 0:03:33.956 Psalm one thirty six. Yeah, can you tell me about that? Yeah? Okay. 0:03:33.956 --> 0:03:37.676 So I was I was planning to go to Africa 0:03:37.796 --> 0:03:40.076 to do this documentary called Throat on Your Heart, which 0:03:40.076 --> 0:03:43.316 I did get to do, and I was researching before 0:03:43.316 --> 0:03:45.756 I went over, like what kind of you know, where 0:03:45.756 --> 0:03:47.876 am I going and what music is going on there? 0:03:48.236 --> 0:03:50.276 And I was going to Uganda as part of the trip. 0:03:50.316 --> 0:03:52.356 Even though Banter doesn't come from Uganda. I had an 0:03:52.476 --> 0:03:56.076 inn to get you into Uganda and Tanzania, so I 0:03:56.116 --> 0:03:58.796 decided to go there as well. And I found this 0:03:58.836 --> 0:04:02.516 recording called Jewish Uganda, and there was this the song 0:04:02.596 --> 0:04:05.796 started with these boys. I think it's all boys singing 0:04:05.836 --> 0:04:08.756 this psalm, this beautiful song, probably in a church or 0:04:08.796 --> 0:04:13.116 a little chapel somewhere in Uganda. And one of the 0:04:13.156 --> 0:04:14.676 guys from the church was in the States and I 0:04:14.716 --> 0:04:17.436 got in touch with them and I asked him if 0:04:17.476 --> 0:04:19.476 I could come to Uganda and record with these boys. 0:04:19.476 --> 0:04:21.116 He said, absolutely not. We don't want to have anything 0:04:21.116 --> 0:04:23.516 to do with anything commercial, so I couldn't go. But 0:04:23.596 --> 0:04:27.476 the tune stuck with me, and so I made it 0:04:27.476 --> 0:04:30.036 into a solo piece that I would play once in 0:04:30.076 --> 0:04:33.396 a while, but I never quite got it happening. And 0:04:33.436 --> 0:04:36.156 then when Chris Thealy was coming to town to record 0:04:36.196 --> 0:04:38.676 these a couple of songs with billy strings, I think, well, 0:04:38.716 --> 0:04:40.516 I've got him here. I want to get more than 0:04:40.516 --> 0:04:43.116 two songs out of the day, and so I asked 0:04:43.196 --> 0:04:44.436 him if he would do this due at with me. 0:04:44.436 --> 0:04:45.996 I send him the music. He said, great, you know, 0:04:46.196 --> 0:04:49.716 and I think we started recording it at midnight or something, 0:04:49.756 --> 0:04:51.436 and we worked on it till three in the morning. 0:04:51.436 --> 0:04:52.596 And at the other end of it, we had this 0:04:52.636 --> 0:04:54.036 bottle of them are salt that we were going to 0:04:54.116 --> 0:04:56.676 open and drink, and that's what that's what we did. 0:04:56.676 --> 0:04:58.236 But we sat and we just worked it through. We 0:04:59.076 --> 0:05:03.236 worked up this very complex duet arrangement of it and 0:05:03.916 --> 0:05:05.756 just had a blast. And then we had this great 0:05:05.756 --> 0:05:08.836 bottle of wine. When you conceive of this project, I 0:05:08.876 --> 0:05:11.036 know you said, when you sit down and play with people, 0:05:11.076 --> 0:05:12.916 you'll know if it's going to work or not. Or 0:05:13.036 --> 0:05:15.956 these all people you'd played with before. Some were and 0:05:15.996 --> 0:05:19.196 some weren't. I've made a couple of records back in 0:05:19.236 --> 0:05:22.316 the old days. I guess eighty eight I made a 0:05:22.316 --> 0:05:24.916 record called Drive and it had kind of the who's 0:05:24.956 --> 0:05:27.956 who of that time. Who was Sam Bush, Jerry Douglas, 0:05:27.996 --> 0:05:32.356 Tony Rice on guitar, Mark O'Connor, Stuart Duncan, Mark Chats 0:05:32.356 --> 0:05:35.276 on bass. Those were the fiddle players, Stewart, Duncan and 0:05:35.316 --> 0:05:37.956 Mark And it was like a position statement of like 0:05:38.236 --> 0:05:40.596 pushing the music forward for that time. I guess I 0:05:40.596 --> 0:05:43.476 can say that at this point. And then I went 0:05:43.516 --> 0:05:45.716 off and did my own thing for a long time 0:05:45.716 --> 0:05:47.276 with the Flectones and tried to get out of the 0:05:47.276 --> 0:05:49.596 bluegrass world completely. And then around the end of the 0:05:49.716 --> 0:05:53.316 nineties I made another record called Bluegrass Sessions that was 0:05:53.436 --> 0:05:55.236 with the same guys, but I was able to include 0:05:55.236 --> 0:05:58.196 Earl Scruggs and John Hartford and Vassar Clements who were 0:05:58.236 --> 0:06:01.196 you know on the elder side. And then I hadn't 0:06:01.196 --> 0:06:04.316 done anything since then, and it's been like twenty something 0:06:04.396 --> 0:06:07.036 years since I'd done bluegrass, and I was playing with 0:06:07.116 --> 0:06:10.796 Chick Korea very happily explore or I'm playing with Sakier 0:06:10.876 --> 0:06:13.196 Hussein and trying to write orchestra music and trying to 0:06:13.196 --> 0:06:15.676 break out, you know, break out of the shackles of 0:06:15.716 --> 0:06:18.996 what people think banjo should be. And just because I'm curious. 0:06:18.996 --> 0:06:20.356 I like music, I want to know it, but I 0:06:20.356 --> 0:06:22.356 want to know it through the banjo. People used to 0:06:22.396 --> 0:06:24.316 say when I was in high school, why didn't you 0:06:24.396 --> 0:06:26.756 learn to play the saxophone or the piano? Was like, wow, 0:06:27.076 --> 0:06:28.836 I like the banjo. Why do I have to play 0:06:28.836 --> 0:06:31.316 the saxophone? If I like jazz, why do I have 0:06:31.356 --> 0:06:35.036 to do that? So it's always through the banjo that 0:06:35.076 --> 0:06:37.676 I learned about music. So did you do you think 0:06:38.076 --> 0:06:43.196 people were pigeonholing you or pigeon holing bluegrass music? Everything? 0:06:43.196 --> 0:06:45.436 I mean, banjo was a laughing stock when I started 0:06:45.476 --> 0:06:48.996 playing it, and I always thought it was serious business, 0:06:49.116 --> 0:06:51.156 you know. I was never never thought it was a 0:06:51.196 --> 0:06:55.236 funny a bit. I thought it was serious, deadly serious. 0:06:55.476 --> 0:06:57.196 But people would laugh at you. And it was because 0:06:57.236 --> 0:07:00.836 at that time the banjo was the Heehaw show, right, 0:07:01.116 --> 0:07:03.556 you know, which had Roy Clark playing on it. I 0:07:03.596 --> 0:07:05.596 can't tell you how many people have come up to me, 0:07:05.636 --> 0:07:07.796 great jazz musicians. Oh, I like the banjo. I used 0:07:07.836 --> 0:07:10.356 to like Roy Clark you know, and like, well, Roy 0:07:10.396 --> 0:07:13.476 Clark is not really the top tier of banjo players. Honestly, 0:07:13.556 --> 0:07:15.836 he was just a great showman. He was good. But 0:07:16.036 --> 0:07:18.956 at any rate, there was a Heehaw which was was 0:07:19.276 --> 0:07:23.156 Roy Clark. And then there was Deliverance, which you know, 0:07:23.196 --> 0:07:25.876 involved everything we know about the movie Deliverance, but it 0:07:25.916 --> 0:07:30.476 had this incredible banjo scene which you know, also stamped 0:07:30.476 --> 0:07:32.756 the nail in the coffin of you know, what people 0:07:32.796 --> 0:07:34.916 thought about who played the banjo and who shouldn't and 0:07:34.996 --> 0:07:38.636 you know now it was, you know, clearly a white 0:07:38.676 --> 0:07:41.756 Southern instrument rather than a black you know, an instrument 0:07:41.796 --> 0:07:44.876 that the slaves brought over. And between that and even 0:07:44.876 --> 0:07:47.396 the Beverly Hillbillies, you know, which was very although the 0:07:47.476 --> 0:07:50.196 Hillbillies were the smarty were the smarty pants in that show, 0:07:50.476 --> 0:07:52.996 sure that it was still it locked in that feeling 0:07:52.996 --> 0:07:54.476 that that's what the banto was. But at least it 0:07:54.476 --> 0:07:57.556 was Earl Scruggs, you know, at least it was great music. Yeah, 0:07:57.596 --> 0:08:00.676 so that was something. There was also Cat Blue if 0:08:00.716 --> 0:08:03.676 you remember that. Yeah, yeah, and I can't remember who played. 0:08:03.956 --> 0:08:06.516 I think the banjo was for string banjo in that 0:08:06.596 --> 0:08:08.796 because there's the whole jazz banto age. Of course, you know, 0:08:08.836 --> 0:08:12.236 band was part of jazz even before bluegrass. Banjo was 0:08:12.836 --> 0:08:16.316 the what later the guitar took over its position in jazz, 0:08:16.356 --> 0:08:18.956 but we forget about that. Occasionally you run into somebody 0:08:18.956 --> 0:08:21.036 and they say, oh, banjo, we a banjo jazz. Sure, 0:08:21.116 --> 0:08:23.036 banto was in jazz from the beginning. What's the problem 0:08:23.076 --> 0:08:26.076 with that, you know, was that before they had amplification, 0:08:26.116 --> 0:08:28.236 because the banjo just you could do it, You could 0:08:28.236 --> 0:08:30.036 do a rhythm. Well, I'll tell you one thing. When 0:08:30.036 --> 0:08:32.516 you strum a banjo, it's loud, and you can walk 0:08:32.556 --> 0:08:34.636 down the street in New Orleans and strum a banjo 0:08:34.836 --> 0:08:37.036 next to a trumpet and be heard just fine, where 0:08:37.036 --> 0:08:39.076 if you strummed a guitar you might not hear it 0:08:39.156 --> 0:08:41.316 so well. But I think it had more to do 0:08:41.516 --> 0:08:45.636 with that sense that banjo was a symbol of slavery, 0:08:46.076 --> 0:08:48.196 you know, for a lot of black people, you know, 0:08:48.276 --> 0:08:52.476 and people made fun of the banjo and its role, 0:08:53.116 --> 0:08:57.236 and people put on black face and imitated slaves, did songs. 0:08:57.276 --> 0:08:58.956 This was like the thing to do in the early 0:08:59.036 --> 0:09:02.236 nineteen hundreds. Put on black white folks, put on black face, 0:09:02.556 --> 0:09:04.836 get banjos and sing songs about how great it was 0:09:04.876 --> 0:09:08.356 on the old plantation. So by the time the music 0:09:08.396 --> 0:09:11.276 started to move along and yeah, banjo was around, and 0:09:11.276 --> 0:09:12.716 so it was in the music. But as soon as 0:09:12.756 --> 0:09:15.596 the guitar showed up and it was a possibility, they 0:09:15.716 --> 0:09:17.316 dropped it like a hot potato, and all of a 0:09:17.356 --> 0:09:20.356 sudden it was like excise from the black world. It 0:09:20.436 --> 0:09:21.716 was like, we don't want to have anything to do 0:09:21.756 --> 0:09:24.236 with that. And in fact, there was a banjo player 0:09:24.316 --> 0:09:28.396 named Danny Barker, and Danny Barker I met him. He 0:09:28.436 --> 0:09:30.236 was playing with Wynton Marsalis and he was one of 0:09:30.276 --> 0:09:32.596 the guys who was playing banjo and had to switch 0:09:32.676 --> 0:09:34.996 to guitar when banjo went out of fashion. He was 0:09:35.036 --> 0:09:39.076 playing with Cab Callaway and he told me that he told, hey, Cab, 0:09:39.196 --> 0:09:41.956 the Deering Banjo Company will give me a free top 0:09:41.996 --> 0:09:43.636 of the line banjo if you let me play it 0:09:43.636 --> 0:09:46.036 in one song on the Cab Calloway Show. And Cab 0:09:46.116 --> 0:09:48.956 said absolutely not. Which had been trying to get away 0:09:48.956 --> 0:09:51.316 from that whole thing for a long long time. He 0:09:51.436 --> 0:09:54.716 wanted nothing to do with the banjo in that period, 0:09:55.196 --> 0:09:57.316 and so all the banjo players were out of work. 0:09:57.356 --> 0:09:58.876 They all had to learn to play guitar if they 0:09:58.876 --> 0:10:01.996 wanted to have a career playing string instrument in jazz. 0:10:02.316 --> 0:10:05.596 And then you got Charlie Christian then yeah, And it 0:10:05.676 --> 0:10:08.276 wasn't based on the electrification as much as it was 0:10:08.356 --> 0:10:12.516 one particular recording, a first recording of where guitar was 0:10:12.516 --> 0:10:14.836 played instead of banjo that had this huge impact. And 0:10:14.876 --> 0:10:17.276 apparently it was like a year later banto was dead 0:10:17.756 --> 0:10:20.596 in that world. But then meanwhile Earl Scruggs was trying 0:10:20.596 --> 0:10:22.116 to figure out how to get that third finger, and 0:10:22.676 --> 0:10:25.316 you know, out in the mountains in North Carolina, along 0:10:25.356 --> 0:10:27.876 with another you know, other people in his region. We're 0:10:27.916 --> 0:10:30.036 trying to figure that out, and they were stepping up. 0:10:30.076 --> 0:10:32.596 And then as the years have gone by, Earl Scruggs, 0:10:33.196 --> 0:10:35.716 you know, he spawned all these other banjo players who 0:10:35.756 --> 0:10:39.116 had to do something different from him. And eventually people 0:10:39.596 --> 0:10:43.636 like We're started bringing jazz into bluegrass, playing in a 0:10:43.716 --> 0:10:45.996 hole differ with a whole different technique. So you had 0:10:46.036 --> 0:10:49.516 you know, Don Reno playing jazz licks, and Eddie Adcock 0:10:49.556 --> 0:10:52.356 and then Bill Keith doing all this jazz stuff with 0:10:52.396 --> 0:10:55.236 a whole different style on the banjo, and Tony Trishka 0:10:55.516 --> 0:10:57.716 here in New York, and these New York guys brought 0:10:57.756 --> 0:11:00.156 a lot of ideas to the banjo, and so it 0:11:00.236 --> 0:11:02.476 started to approach your jazz kind of knowledge in a 0:11:02.556 --> 0:11:05.996 jazz sort of language, but from a whole other direction, 0:11:06.396 --> 0:11:09.516 on a whole different banjo than what they played in jazz, 0:11:09.556 --> 0:11:11.596 a five string banjo which is tuned to an open 0:11:11.676 --> 0:11:14.956 chord rather than tuned in fourths, you know, so it's 0:11:14.996 --> 0:11:18.396 a very different voicing. I've never seen this described, but 0:11:18.756 --> 0:11:23.036 anytime I hear banjo's in other contexts, they seem to 0:11:23.076 --> 0:11:26.196 add a lot of pace to a song. Yeah, the 0:11:26.316 --> 0:11:29.716 last verse of of taking by the Eagles, Like, I 0:11:29.756 --> 0:11:31.516 think there's something that music has been trying to do 0:11:31.596 --> 0:11:34.876 for a long time, and you hear it in pop music. 0:11:34.956 --> 0:11:37.396 You certainly hear it in things like Steve Reich and 0:11:37.436 --> 0:11:39.396 a lot of that music, which is this kind of 0:11:39.476 --> 0:11:43.236 perpetual motion. Yeah, it's because the banjo doesn't have sustained 0:11:43.236 --> 0:11:45.276 So the way that we create the illusion of sustain 0:11:45.436 --> 0:11:49.276 is to do continuous arpeggios and you know, licks, and 0:11:49.556 --> 0:11:51.156 we we don't stop till the end of the song, 0:11:51.436 --> 0:11:53.476 and it's hard for banjo players to stop. It's one 0:11:53.476 --> 0:11:55.236 of the hardest things to do is to start playing 0:11:55.276 --> 0:11:58.596 out or nothing in time from from a dead stop. 0:11:58.716 --> 0:12:01.116 So we'd keep playing, and we have these different techniques 0:12:01.116 --> 0:12:03.556 we do to keep our hands moving during songs. But 0:12:03.676 --> 0:12:06.116 one of the hardest again, it's it's rare to find 0:12:06.156 --> 0:12:08.596 a banjo player who will stop and lay out for 0:12:08.676 --> 0:12:10.276 part of this song and come back in. But that's 0:12:10.276 --> 0:12:11.876 one of the most effective things you can do, is 0:12:12.036 --> 0:12:14.436 like and take it easy. The effectiveness is it came 0:12:14.476 --> 0:12:17.516 in out of nowhere in double time, and so it 0:12:17.556 --> 0:12:20.756 provides all this drive, but it also provides a sonic 0:12:20.836 --> 0:12:23.636 change which you don't get if you're playing constantly. But 0:12:24.116 --> 0:12:27.036 guitar players do Travis picking for example, right, but it 0:12:27.116 --> 0:12:30.396 doesn't have the same effect. Why is that so strong 0:12:31.396 --> 0:12:35.116 a on a banjo's because banjos are better than guitars, 0:12:35.596 --> 0:12:37.916 so anything that they do is going to be better. 0:12:38.316 --> 0:12:41.076 So there's that. But I can't think of another instrument 0:12:41.076 --> 0:12:43.636 that really All the other instruments you're very conscious of 0:12:43.636 --> 0:12:46.396 the attack. You know, some fiddling, for example, they try 0:12:46.436 --> 0:12:48.196 and get a certain kind of rhythm going like if 0:12:48.236 --> 0:12:50.756 you get but it doesn't have I think it's a 0:12:50.756 --> 0:12:53.596 percussion instrument. Banjo is half percussion instrument and a half 0:12:53.636 --> 0:12:56.756 melodic instrument. So it's um you could play that way 0:12:56.796 --> 0:12:58.516 on a piano. If you came in playing the same 0:12:58.556 --> 0:13:00.716 thing you did on a on a banjo in the 0:13:00.756 --> 0:13:05.796 same register and played it extremely with a lot of clarity, 0:13:06.116 --> 0:13:08.156 it could have a similar effect. There are other instruments 0:13:08.196 --> 0:13:10.876 that could do that, but banjo just does that naturally. 0:13:10.956 --> 0:13:13.556 It's what it does. You know it comes in and 0:13:13.636 --> 0:13:17.676 so your sense of time is incredibly critical as a 0:13:17.676 --> 0:13:20.476 banjo player because you really can feel it when it's 0:13:20.516 --> 0:13:24.036 out of the pocket. It's so clear. So if you're 0:13:24.076 --> 0:13:27.036 not solid when you come in into a track or 0:13:27.076 --> 0:13:29.596 into a spot, you know it can it can mess 0:13:29.636 --> 0:13:31.196 it up. But if it comes in good and solid, 0:13:31.236 --> 0:13:33.796 it's like wow, like the light's coming on. Do you 0:13:33.796 --> 0:13:41.236 want to play a bit? I'm sure it's the best. 0:13:41.236 --> 0:13:43.796 If you're playing all the time, that's when you play good. 0:13:45.036 --> 0:13:48.916 And then sometimes when you don't practice every day, sometimes 0:13:48.956 --> 0:13:51.196 I let it go because I've got kids. I've got 0:13:51.196 --> 0:13:52.956 a four year old and a nine year old, So 0:13:52.996 --> 0:13:55.556 when I come off the road like I just did, 0:13:55.596 --> 0:13:58.796 all of a sudden, it's like time to do my share. Yeah, 0:13:58.836 --> 0:14:00.556 you know, So then the banjo stays in the in 0:14:00.556 --> 0:14:02.316 the case till a few days before the tour, and 0:14:02.316 --> 0:15:18.356 then I and then I cram okay and my but 0:15:18.636 --> 0:18:57.596 I'm not high on my mind. That's Baila Fleck playing 0:18:57.756 --> 0:19:00.756 hug Point from his new album My blue Grass Heart. 0:19:01.476 --> 0:19:03.476 We'll be right back after a short break with more 0:19:03.636 --> 0:19:11.276 from Baila Fleck and Bruce Headlam. We're back with more 0:19:11.356 --> 0:19:14.676 from Baila Fleck and Bruce Headlam. Did you grew up 0:19:14.676 --> 0:19:17.356 in a musical family. Well, music was a big part 0:19:17.356 --> 0:19:20.356 of our family, but there weren't any musicians when I 0:19:20.396 --> 0:19:24.636 was young. My father was. It's a complicated story. My 0:19:24.716 --> 0:19:27.236 father was musical, but he wasn't around. He and my 0:19:27.236 --> 0:19:29.156 mother split up when I was about one or two, 0:19:29.196 --> 0:19:33.516 and he was completely absent, not even in contact. I 0:19:33.596 --> 0:19:35.556 didn't meet him till I was in my forties. But 0:19:35.596 --> 0:19:38.076 he was a big fan of, you know, classical music, 0:19:38.156 --> 0:19:41.636 which is why he named me Baila Anton Leosh Fleck, 0:19:41.756 --> 0:19:45.596 and he named me after these composers. But there was 0:19:45.636 --> 0:19:49.196 no influence from him. But then my mother married a 0:19:49.236 --> 0:19:53.356 wonderful guy who was a cellist named Joe Palladino, who 0:19:53.396 --> 0:19:55.436 was a guy from Brooklyn who played the cello in 0:19:55.476 --> 0:19:58.156 the Army and then went into the school systems, the 0:19:58.196 --> 0:20:01.476 Guidance Council, guidance systems at Brooklyn, and so he was 0:20:01.516 --> 0:20:04.476 playing a classical stuff around the house when I got 0:20:04.516 --> 0:20:07.476 into my you know, from maybe ten years or so on. 0:20:07.796 --> 0:20:09.996 But again I didn't I didn't relate to it. It 0:20:10.036 --> 0:20:12.316 wasn't my thing, but I liked it. It was cool, 0:20:12.676 --> 0:20:14.676 but it seeped in. So by the time I've got 0:20:14.716 --> 0:20:16.996 my first banjo, which was pretty late when I was fifteen, 0:20:17.516 --> 0:20:20.156 you know, I had a pretty broad musical interest and 0:20:20.196 --> 0:20:22.076 I heard the banjo when I was maybe four or five, 0:20:22.516 --> 0:20:24.436 but I never thought I could ever play it, so 0:20:24.476 --> 0:20:26.156 I never tried to get one, but I was a 0:20:26.156 --> 0:20:29.036 fan from then on. What was your first banjo? It 0:20:29.076 --> 0:20:31.396 was a K just a black no name on it, 0:20:31.436 --> 0:20:34.036 but it looked a lot like a K fifty dollars banjo. 0:20:34.156 --> 0:20:36.796 My grandfather got me the day before I started high school. 0:20:37.156 --> 0:20:40.596 Did Sears cell came probably, I think so. Yeah. Sears 0:20:40.636 --> 0:20:43.836 also sold Gibson as They had knockoff banjos called cal 0:20:43.916 --> 0:20:47.076 Croydon's that were like just like this whole banjo of mine. 0:20:47.116 --> 0:20:49.516 It was pre war flathead from the thirties, but they 0:20:50.036 --> 0:20:52.276 put them under different names and sold with different ways. 0:20:52.836 --> 0:20:56.636 The great banjos really came in the thirties. That's when 0:20:56.996 --> 0:20:59.436 the great banjos came. Why was that it had something 0:20:59.436 --> 0:21:00.956 to do with the metal and had something to do 0:21:00.956 --> 0:21:03.516 with the war effort trying to figure out how to 0:21:03.516 --> 0:21:06.596 make it cheaper, and they started making certain parts with 0:21:06.756 --> 0:21:09.916 pot metal instead of expensive brass and making them with 0:21:10.036 --> 0:21:13.556 less parts, and something about it sounded better. And so 0:21:13.556 --> 0:21:15.196 when Earl Scrugg was trying to figure out what he 0:21:15.236 --> 0:21:17.876 wanted to play, he picked the best banjo he could find, 0:21:18.116 --> 0:21:20.516 you know, around, which was a Gibson Mastertone at the time, 0:21:20.836 --> 0:21:23.236 and honestly, banjo was music was starting to go down 0:21:23.316 --> 0:21:26.196 at that point, but a lot of these instruments were 0:21:27.276 --> 0:21:30.156 around and uh, you know, again easy to find at 0:21:30.156 --> 0:21:32.876 that time, relatively cheap, but they had this great sound 0:21:33.316 --> 0:21:36.236 that has not really been equalled. So there's no modern 0:21:36.276 --> 0:21:38.596 banjo you would play that you would you know, there 0:21:38.956 --> 0:21:41.556 are some pretty good ones, but they and I'm even 0:21:41.596 --> 0:21:44.396 involved with a model, the Gold Tone is making that 0:21:44.516 --> 0:21:46.476 sort of modeled after this and they've you know, they've 0:21:46.516 --> 0:21:48.436 done the best they can and everyone's doing the best 0:21:48.436 --> 0:21:50.996 they can, but nobody has cracked the code of what 0:21:51.196 --> 0:21:54.316 makes a pre war banjo what it is. I would 0:21:54.356 --> 0:21:56.876 never claim that these new banjos are in the class 0:21:56.916 --> 0:21:59.836 of the Gibsons from the thirties, and that's the one 0:21:59.876 --> 0:22:03.036 I play every day still. How many of those do 0:22:03.076 --> 0:22:05.636 you have? I probably have a dozen something around of those, 0:22:05.676 --> 0:22:07.396 but I have, you know, more than a hundred banjos 0:22:08.116 --> 0:22:11.356 around the house. They sort of collect they and I don't. 0:22:11.436 --> 0:22:14.236 I'm not good at getting rid of them. I have 0:22:14.316 --> 0:22:17.036 an infestation. You could say. Yeah, I like having them, though, 0:22:17.076 --> 0:22:19.276 and people say invest in something, you know, you know, 0:22:19.636 --> 0:22:21.396 And so over the years, like I bought them, I 0:22:21.396 --> 0:22:24.036 started buying them, and like when I first got this one, 0:22:24.076 --> 0:22:25.916 they were very hard to find. They were just not 0:22:25.916 --> 0:22:28.556 not around. But over the years, sometimes suddenly they're available. 0:22:28.996 --> 0:22:31.356 Maybe some you know, older folks are passing and they 0:22:31.556 --> 0:22:34.116 get back on the market or something. And so I 0:22:34.116 --> 0:22:37.156 started buying them, and they kept going up and up. 0:22:37.196 --> 0:22:39.916 So everything that I bought early on was worth way 0:22:39.916 --> 0:22:41.796 more than I cost, you know, than I'd paid. And 0:22:41.836 --> 0:22:43.476 then as the years went on, I started paying more 0:22:43.516 --> 0:22:46.276 for them, and then they weren't worth as much, you know, 0:22:46.396 --> 0:22:50.036 as In other words, the investment wasn't as good, but 0:22:50.076 --> 0:22:52.956 they still you know, appreciated. I'm still ahead of the 0:22:52.996 --> 0:22:56.276 game if if money matters, which a still a good question, 0:22:56.316 --> 0:22:59.556 that he's buying gold and crypto, Now, yeah, they're I 0:22:59.556 --> 0:23:01.756 would have thought that this investment would have been you know, 0:23:01.836 --> 0:23:03.516 gold for life, and that I could pass it on. 0:23:03.596 --> 0:23:05.476 But I think that at a certain point, people that 0:23:05.556 --> 0:23:08.396 really know about these instruments are passing, so they don't actually, 0:23:08.396 --> 0:23:11.916 you know, unless younger players can afford to get them. 0:23:11.956 --> 0:23:13.196 And you know, and this one, you know, to get 0:23:13.236 --> 0:23:15.276 an instrument like this, we're talking about one hundred thousand 0:23:15.276 --> 0:23:18.116 dollars or eighty thousand dollars something in that that mode, 0:23:18.116 --> 0:23:20.476 and if it's all original from the thirties, you know, 0:23:20.556 --> 0:23:22.676 maybe one hundred and fifty thousand dollars was the price 0:23:22.716 --> 0:23:25.116 a few years back, but now it's dropping a bit. 0:23:25.356 --> 0:23:27.636 Do you tour with this one as well? Yeah, so's 0:23:27.676 --> 0:23:29.316 kind of one of those guys that saves it for 0:23:29.356 --> 0:23:31.636 the studio. No, No, I mean in the studio, what 0:23:31.716 --> 0:23:33.036 I get to do is I get to like go 0:23:33.076 --> 0:23:35.916 through my closet and go, I wonder which ancient instrument 0:23:35.916 --> 0:23:38.156 would sound good? On this song, you know, and I 0:23:38.156 --> 0:23:39.996 get to do that. But the truth is they don't 0:23:39.996 --> 0:23:42.596 all handle to travel that well. But this one I've 0:23:42.636 --> 0:23:45.876 traveled with since nineteen eighty one and I always keep 0:23:45.876 --> 0:23:48.716 it set up, you know, to play and flying with it. 0:23:48.716 --> 0:23:51.676 They're very heavy to carry around and if it goes 0:23:51.756 --> 0:23:54.796 under the plane, you're sunk, you know, So I often 0:23:54.796 --> 0:23:56.916 buy tickets for it or find you know, I have 0:23:56.956 --> 0:23:59.036 to have strategies when I'm traveling for how I'm gonna 0:23:59.036 --> 0:24:01.996 get the banjo on. Wow. Yeah, it's a pain in 0:24:02.036 --> 0:24:04.836 the ass, very serious. It's a pain, but it's worth 0:24:04.836 --> 0:24:07.036 it when I get there and I'm playing this instrument. 0:24:07.796 --> 0:24:10.636 They call them flatheads because they're banjos that have raised 0:24:10.636 --> 0:24:12.916