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Speaker 1: Pushkin. Hey y'all, today we're featuring a conversation with the

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Speaker 1: world's preeminent banjo player, Baila Fleck. Over the course of

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Speaker 1: his four decade career, Bila's won numerous Grammys in a

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Speaker 1: variety of surprising genres, including jazz, Latin, pop, and classical.

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Speaker 1: Just last year, his latest release, My Bluegrass Heart, scored

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Speaker 1: the Grammy for Best Bluegrass Album. In addition to Beila's

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Speaker 1: innovative style and expert technique, he is also an advocate

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Speaker 1: for keeping the banjo's rich historical tradition alive. In two

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Speaker 1: thousand and eight, Baila made a pilgrimage to Africa to

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Speaker 1: trace the origins of the banjo in the brilliant documentary

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Speaker 1: Throw Down Your Heart. On today's episode, Bruce Helen talks

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Speaker 1: to Beila about growing up in New York City, where

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Speaker 1: he first fell in love with the banjo while watching,

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Speaker 1: of all things, the Beverly Hillbillies. Baila also talks about

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Speaker 1: how jazz giants like Chick Korea and Charlie Parker influenced

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Speaker 1: his highly technical style, and Baila explains why he believes

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Speaker 1: the banjo is far superior to the guitar. This is

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Speaker 1: broken record line of notes for the Digital Age. I'm

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Speaker 1: justin Michman. Here's Bruce Headlam with Baila Fleck. Now you've

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Speaker 1: won I think fifteen Grammys something like. That's a lot

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Speaker 1: of Grammys. Yeah. I was gonna say, you've been nominated

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Speaker 1: in more Grammy categories than anybody else in the world,

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Speaker 1: which is kind of incredible. You've done pops, yeah, and

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Speaker 1: apparently Latin. I didn't know you've done that. Yeah, it's

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Speaker 1: with Chick Korea. We got we wanted Latin Grammy. So

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Speaker 1: I asked him about how you know, de count count

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Speaker 1: the grant Latin Grammy as one of your Grammys and said, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's a Grammy, right. Yeah. So whenever people ask me

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Speaker 1: how many I have, I don't you know. They said, well,

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Speaker 1: we checked and he said you only have fifteen. I said, well,

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Speaker 1: that doesn't matter. I mean, but Chicks said it was

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Speaker 1: the Latin one counted, so I say, sixteen, Kuria said it,

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Speaker 1: But I don't It's fine. One would have been fine,

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Speaker 1: none would have been fine. You've got a lot, but

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Speaker 1: in more categories, classical, all these other things. That's the

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Speaker 1: fun thing. World music and classical and things like that

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Speaker 1: in places that the band isn't typically heard. That's those

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Speaker 1: are the ones that I get excited about usually, although

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Speaker 1: just now winning the one for the bluegrass album, I've

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Speaker 1: never won one from bluegrass albums after all of this time,

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Speaker 1: So there was something really sweet about returning to the

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Speaker 1: music and putting together like a very community album that

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Speaker 1: brought together a lot of different age groups of excellent players,

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Speaker 1: and doing my own music and winning a Grammate with

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Speaker 1: it was sweet. I'd like to say I'm too cool

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Speaker 1: to care, but it meant a lot to me. It

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Speaker 1: was when you put the bluegrass in the title, it's

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Speaker 1: my bluegrass heart. Yeah, a lot of great players. It's

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Speaker 1: it's kind of a shred fest for our guitarists out there.

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Speaker 1: There's some there's some ferocious playing, and there's some ferocious playing.

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Speaker 1: I don't like the term shred because to me, it's like, oh,

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Speaker 1: all you're doing is playing fast. When you think of shredding,

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Speaker 1: it doesn't usually mean it's necessarily musical. So if it's

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Speaker 1: musical shredding, I don't mind. But yeah, I mean, I

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Speaker 1: wanted to be music. Now. If it's fast, you know,

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Speaker 1: it's still got to be really good. There's a lot

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Speaker 1: I mean a lot of variety, and the songs on

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Speaker 1: this new album, something like hug Point sounds very irish.

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Speaker 1: The other song that jumped out at me was the

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Speaker 1: Psalm one thirty six. Yeah, can you tell me about that? Yeah? Okay.

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Speaker 1: So I was I was planning to go to Africa

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Speaker 1: to do this documentary called Throat on Your Heart, which

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Speaker 1: I did get to do, and I was researching before

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Speaker 1: I went over, like what kind of you know, where

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Speaker 1: am I going and what music is going on there?

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Speaker 1: And I was going to Uganda as part of the trip.

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Speaker 1: Even though Banter doesn't come from Uganda. I had an

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Speaker 1: inn to get you into Uganda and Tanzania, so I

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Speaker 1: decided to go there as well. And I found this

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Speaker 1: recording called Jewish Uganda, and there was this the song

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Speaker 1: started with these boys. I think it's all boys singing

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Speaker 1: this psalm, this beautiful song, probably in a church or

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Speaker 1: a little chapel somewhere in Uganda. And one of the

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Speaker 1: guys from the church was in the States and I

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Speaker 1: got in touch with them and I asked him if

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Speaker 1: I could come to Uganda and record with these boys.

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Speaker 1: He said, absolutely not. We don't want to have anything

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Speaker 1: to do with anything commercial, so I couldn't go. But

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Speaker 1: the tune stuck with me, and so I made it

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Speaker 1: into a solo piece that I would play once in

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Speaker 1: a while, but I never quite got it happening. And

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Speaker 1: then when Chris Thealy was coming to town to record

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Speaker 1: these a couple of songs with billy strings, I think, well,

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Speaker 1: I've got him here. I want to get more than

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Speaker 1: two songs out of the day, and so I asked

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Speaker 1: him if he would do this due at with me.

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Speaker 1: I send him the music. He said, great, you know,

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Speaker 1: and I think we started recording it at midnight or something,

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Speaker 1: and we worked on it till three in the morning.

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Speaker 1: And at the other end of it, we had this

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Speaker 1: bottle of them are salt that we were going to

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Speaker 1: open and drink, and that's what that's what we did.

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Speaker 1: But we sat and we just worked it through. We

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Speaker 1: worked up this very complex duet arrangement of it and

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Speaker 1: just had a blast. And then we had this great

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Speaker 1: bottle of wine. When you conceive of this project, I

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Speaker 1: know you said, when you sit down and play with people,

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Speaker 1: you'll know if it's going to work or not. Or

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Speaker 1: these all people you'd played with before. Some were and

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Speaker 1: some weren't. I've made a couple of records back in

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Speaker 1: the old days. I guess eighty eight I made a

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Speaker 1: record called Drive and it had kind of the who's

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Speaker 1: who of that time. Who was Sam Bush, Jerry Douglas,

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Speaker 1: Tony Rice on guitar, Mark O'Connor, Stuart Duncan, Mark Chats

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Speaker 1: on bass. Those were the fiddle players, Stewart, Duncan and

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Speaker 1: Mark And it was like a position statement of like

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Speaker 1: pushing the music forward for that time. I guess I

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Speaker 1: can say that at this point. And then I went

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Speaker 1: off and did my own thing for a long time

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Speaker 1: with the Flectones and tried to get out of the

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Speaker 1: bluegrass world completely. And then around the end of the

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Speaker 1: nineties I made another record called Bluegrass Sessions that was

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Speaker 1: with the same guys, but I was able to include

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Speaker 1: Earl Scruggs and John Hartford and Vassar Clements who were

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Speaker 1: you know on the elder side. And then I hadn't

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Speaker 1: done anything since then, and it's been like twenty something

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Speaker 1: years since I'd done bluegrass, and I was playing with

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Speaker 1: Chick Korea very happily explore or I'm playing with Sakier

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Speaker 1: Hussein and trying to write orchestra music and trying to

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Speaker 1: break out, you know, break out of the shackles of

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Speaker 1: what people think banjo should be. And just because I'm curious.

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Speaker 1: I like music, I want to know it, but I

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Speaker 1: want to know it through the banjo. People used to

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Speaker 1: say when I was in high school, why didn't you

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Speaker 1: learn to play the saxophone or the piano? Was like, wow,

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Speaker 1: I like the banjo. Why do I have to play

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Speaker 1: the saxophone? If I like jazz, why do I have

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Speaker 1: to do that? So it's always through the banjo that

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Speaker 1: I learned about music. So did you do you think

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Speaker 1: people were pigeonholing you or pigeon holing bluegrass music? Everything?

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Speaker 1: I mean, banjo was a laughing stock when I started

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Speaker 1: playing it, and I always thought it was serious business,

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Speaker 1: you know. I was never never thought it was a

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Speaker 1: funny a bit. I thought it was serious, deadly serious.

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Speaker 1: But people would laugh at you. And it was because

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Speaker 1: at that time the banjo was the Heehaw show, right,

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Speaker 1: you know, which had Roy Clark playing on it. I

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Speaker 1: can't tell you how many people have come up to me,

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Speaker 1: great jazz musicians. Oh, I like the banjo. I used

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Speaker 1: to like Roy Clark you know, and like, well, Roy

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Speaker 1: Clark is not really the top tier of banjo players. Honestly,

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Speaker 1: he was just a great showman. He was good. But

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Speaker 1: at any rate, there was a Heehaw which was was

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Speaker 1: Roy Clark. And then there was Deliverance, which you know,

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Speaker 1: involved everything we know about the movie Deliverance, but it

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Speaker 1: had this incredible banjo scene which you know, also stamped

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Speaker 1: the nail in the coffin of you know, what people

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Speaker 1: thought about who played the banjo and who shouldn't and

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Speaker 1: you know now it was, you know, clearly a white

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Speaker 1: Southern instrument rather than a black you know, an instrument

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Speaker 1: that the slaves brought over. And between that and even

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Speaker 1: the Beverly Hillbillies, you know, which was very although the

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Speaker 1: Hillbillies were the smarty were the smarty pants in that show,

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Speaker 1: sure that it was still it locked in that feeling

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Speaker 1: that that's what the banto was. But at least it

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Speaker 1: was Earl Scruggs, you know, at least it was great music. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so that was something. There was also Cat Blue if

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Speaker 1: you remember that. Yeah, yeah, and I can't remember who played.

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Speaker 1: I think the banjo was for string banjo in that

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Speaker 1: because there's the whole jazz banto age. Of course, you know,

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Speaker 1: band was part of jazz even before bluegrass. Banjo was

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Speaker 1: the what later the guitar took over its position in jazz,

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Speaker 1: but we forget about that. Occasionally you run into somebody

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Speaker 1: and they say, oh, banjo, we a banjo jazz. Sure,

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Speaker 1: banto was in jazz from the beginning. What's the problem

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Speaker 1: with that, you know, was that before they had amplification,

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Speaker 1: because the banjo just you could do it, You could

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Speaker 1: do a rhythm. Well, I'll tell you one thing. When

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Speaker 1: you strum a banjo, it's loud, and you can walk

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Speaker 1: down the street in New Orleans and strum a banjo

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Speaker 1: next to a trumpet and be heard just fine, where

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Speaker 1: if you strummed a guitar you might not hear it

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Speaker 1: so well. But I think it had more to do

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Speaker 1: with that sense that banjo was a symbol of slavery,

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Speaker 1: you know, for a lot of black people, you know,

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Speaker 1: and people made fun of the banjo and its role,

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Speaker 1: and people put on black face and imitated slaves, did songs.

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Speaker 1: This was like the thing to do in the early

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Speaker 1: nineteen hundreds. Put on black white folks, put on black face,

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Speaker 1: get banjos and sing songs about how great it was

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Speaker 1: on the old plantation. So by the time the music

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Speaker 1: started to move along and yeah, banjo was around, and

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Speaker 1: so it was in the music. But as soon as

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Speaker 1: the guitar showed up and it was a possibility, they

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Speaker 1: dropped it like a hot potato, and all of a

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Speaker 1: sudden it was like excise from the black world. It

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Speaker 1: was like, we don't want to have anything to do

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Speaker 1: with that. And in fact, there was a banjo player

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Speaker 1: named Danny Barker, and Danny Barker I met him. He

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Speaker 1: was playing with Wynton Marsalis and he was one of

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Speaker 1: the guys who was playing banjo and had to switch

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Speaker 1: to guitar when banjo went out of fashion. He was

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Speaker 1: playing with Cab Callaway and he told me that he told, hey, Cab,

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Speaker 1: the Deering Banjo Company will give me a free top

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Speaker 1: of the line banjo if you let me play it

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Speaker 1: in one song on the Cab Calloway Show. And Cab

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Speaker 1: said absolutely not. Which had been trying to get away

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Speaker 1: from that whole thing for a long long time. He

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Speaker 1: wanted nothing to do with the banjo in that period,

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Speaker 1: and so all the banjo players were out of work.

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Speaker 1: They all had to learn to play guitar if they

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Speaker 1: wanted to have a career playing string instrument in jazz.

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Speaker 1: And then you got Charlie Christian then yeah, And it

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Speaker 1: wasn't based on the electrification as much as it was

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Speaker 1: one particular recording, a first recording of where guitar was

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Speaker 1: played instead of banjo that had this huge impact. And

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Speaker 1: apparently it was like a year later banto was dead

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Speaker 1: in that world. But then meanwhile Earl Scruggs was trying

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Speaker 1: to figure out how to get that third finger, and

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Speaker 1: you know, out in the mountains in North Carolina, along

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Speaker 1: with another you know, other people in his region. We're

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Speaker 1: trying to figure that out, and they were stepping up.

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Speaker 1: And then as the years have gone by, Earl Scruggs,

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Speaker 1: you know, he spawned all these other banjo players who

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Speaker 1: had to do something different from him. And eventually people

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Speaker 1: like We're started bringing jazz into bluegrass, playing in a

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Speaker 1: hole differ with a whole different technique. So you had

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Speaker 1: you know, Don Reno playing jazz licks, and Eddie Adcock

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Speaker 1: and then Bill Keith doing all this jazz stuff with

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Speaker 1: a whole different style on the banjo, and Tony Trishka

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Speaker 1: here in New York, and these New York guys brought

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Speaker 1: a lot of ideas to the banjo, and so it

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Speaker 1: started to approach your jazz kind of knowledge in a

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Speaker 1: jazz sort of language, but from a whole other direction,

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Speaker 1: on a whole different banjo than what they played in jazz,

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Speaker 1: a five string banjo which is tuned to an open

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Speaker 1: chord rather than tuned in fourths, you know, so it's

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Speaker 1: a very different voicing. I've never seen this described, but

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Speaker 1: anytime I hear banjo's in other contexts, they seem to

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Speaker 1: add a lot of pace to a song. Yeah, the

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Speaker 1: last verse of of taking by the Eagles, Like, I

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Speaker 1: think there's something that music has been trying to do

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Speaker 1: for a long time, and you hear it in pop music.

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Speaker 1: You certainly hear it in things like Steve Reich and

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Speaker 1: a lot of that music, which is this kind of

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Speaker 1: perpetual motion. Yeah, it's because the banjo doesn't have sustained

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Speaker 1: So the way that we create the illusion of sustain

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Speaker 1: is to do continuous arpeggios and you know, licks, and

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Speaker 1: we we don't stop till the end of the song,

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Speaker 1: and it's hard for banjo players to stop. It's one

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Speaker 1: of the hardest things to do is to start playing

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Speaker 1: out or nothing in time from from a dead stop.

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Speaker 1: So we'd keep playing, and we have these different techniques

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Speaker 1: we do to keep our hands moving during songs. But

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Speaker 1: one of the hardest again, it's it's rare to find

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Speaker 1: a banjo player who will stop and lay out for

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Speaker 1: part of this song and come back in. But that's

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Speaker 1: one of the most effective things you can do, is

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Speaker 1: like and take it easy. The effectiveness is it came

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Speaker 1: in out of nowhere in double time, and so it

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Speaker 1: provides all this drive, but it also provides a sonic

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Speaker 1: change which you don't get if you're playing constantly. But

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Speaker 1: guitar players do Travis picking for example, right, but it

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Speaker 1: doesn't have the same effect. Why is that so strong

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Speaker 1: a on a banjo's because banjos are better than guitars,

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Speaker 1: so anything that they do is going to be better.

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Speaker 1: So there's that. But I can't think of another instrument

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Speaker 1: that really All the other instruments you're very conscious of

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Speaker 1: the attack. You know, some fiddling, for example, they try

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Speaker 1: and get a certain kind of rhythm going like if

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Speaker 1: you get but it doesn't have I think it's a

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Speaker 1: percussion instrument. Banjo is half percussion instrument and a half

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Speaker 1: melodic instrument. So it's um you could play that way

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Speaker 1: on a piano. If you came in playing the same

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Speaker 1: thing you did on a on a banjo in the

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Speaker 1: same register and played it extremely with a lot of clarity,

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Speaker 1: it could have a similar effect. There are other instruments

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Speaker 1: that could do that, but banjo just does that naturally.

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Speaker 1: It's what it does. You know it comes in and

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Speaker 1: so your sense of time is incredibly critical as a

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Speaker 1: banjo player because you really can feel it when it's

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Speaker 1: out of the pocket. It's so clear. So if you're

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Speaker 1: not solid when you come in into a track or

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Speaker 1: into a spot, you know it can it can mess

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Speaker 1: it up. But if it comes in good and solid,

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Speaker 1: it's like wow, like the light's coming on. Do you

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Speaker 1: want to play a bit? I'm sure it's the best.

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Speaker 1: If you're playing all the time, that's when you play good.

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Speaker 1: And then sometimes when you don't practice every day, sometimes

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Speaker 1: I let it go because I've got kids. I've got

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Speaker 1: a four year old and a nine year old, So

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Speaker 1: when I come off the road like I just did,

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Speaker 1: all of a sudden, it's like time to do my share. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you know, So then the banjo stays in the in

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Speaker 1: the case till a few days before the tour, and

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Speaker 1: then I and then I cram okay and my but

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Speaker 1: I'm not high on my mind. That's Baila Fleck playing

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Speaker 1: hug Point from his new album My blue Grass Heart.

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Speaker 1: We'll be right back after a short break with more

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Speaker 1: from Baila Fleck and Bruce Headlam. We're back with more

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Speaker 1: from Baila Fleck and Bruce Headlam. Did you grew up

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Speaker 1: in a musical family. Well, music was a big part

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Speaker 1: of our family, but there weren't any musicians when I

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Speaker 1: was young. My father was. It's a complicated story. My

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Speaker 1: father was musical, but he wasn't around. He and my

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Speaker 1: mother split up when I was about one or two,

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Speaker 1: and he was completely absent, not even in contact. I

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Speaker 1: didn't meet him till I was in my forties. But

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Speaker 1: he was a big fan of, you know, classical music,

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Speaker 1: which is why he named me Baila Anton Leosh Fleck,

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Speaker 1: and he named me after these composers. But there was

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Speaker 1: no influence from him. But then my mother married a

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Speaker 1: wonderful guy who was a cellist named Joe Palladino, who

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Speaker 1: was a guy from Brooklyn who played the cello in

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Speaker 1: the Army and then went into the school systems, the

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Speaker 1: Guidance Council, guidance systems at Brooklyn, and so he was

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00:20:01,516 --> 00:20:04,476
Speaker 1: playing a classical stuff around the house when I got

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Speaker 1: into my you know, from maybe ten years or so on.

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Speaker 1: But again I didn't I didn't relate to it. It

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Speaker 1: wasn't my thing, but I liked it. It was cool,

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Speaker 1: but it seeped in. So by the time I've got

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Speaker 1: my first banjo, which was pretty late when I was fifteen,

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Speaker 1: you know, I had a pretty broad musical interest and

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Speaker 1: I heard the banjo when I was maybe four or five,

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Speaker 1: but I never thought I could ever play it, so

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Speaker 1: I never tried to get one, but I was a

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Speaker 1: fan from then on. What was your first banjo? It

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00:20:29,076 --> 00:20:31,396
Speaker 1: was a K just a black no name on it,

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Speaker 1: but it looked a lot like a K fifty dollars banjo.

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Speaker 1: My grandfather got me the day before I started high school.

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Speaker 1: Did Sears cell came probably, I think so. Yeah. Sears

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Speaker 1: also sold Gibson as They had knockoff banjos called cal

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Speaker 1: Croydon's that were like just like this whole banjo of mine.

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Speaker 1: It was pre war flathead from the thirties, but they

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Speaker 1: put them under different names and sold with different ways.

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Speaker 1: The great banjos really came in the thirties. That's when

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Speaker 1: the great banjos came. Why was that it had something

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Speaker 1: to do with the metal and had something to do

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00:21:00,956 --> 00:21:03,516
Speaker 1: with the war effort trying to figure out how to

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00:21:03,516 --> 00:21:06,596
Speaker 1: make it cheaper, and they started making certain parts with

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00:21:06,756 --> 00:21:09,916
Speaker 1: pot metal instead of expensive brass and making them with

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00:21:10,036 --> 00:21:13,556
Speaker 1: less parts, and something about it sounded better. And so

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00:21:13,556 --> 00:21:15,196
Speaker 1: when Earl Scrugg was trying to figure out what he

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00:21:15,236 --> 00:21:17,876
Speaker 1: wanted to play, he picked the best banjo he could find,

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00:21:18,116 --> 00:21:20,516
Speaker 1: you know, around, which was a Gibson Mastertone at the time,

336
00:21:20,836 --> 00:21:23,236
Speaker 1: and honestly, banjo was music was starting to go down

337
00:21:23,316 --> 00:21:26,196
Speaker 1: at that point, but a lot of these instruments were

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00:21:27,276 --> 00:21:30,156
Speaker 1: around and uh, you know, again easy to find at

339
00:21:30,156 --> 00:21:32,876
Speaker 1: that time, relatively cheap, but they had this great sound

340
00:21:33,316 --> 00:21:36,236
Speaker 1: that has not really been equalled. So there's no modern

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00:21:36,276 --> 00:21:38,596
Speaker 1: banjo you would play that you would you know, there

342
00:21:38,956 --> 00:21:41,556
Speaker 1: are some pretty good ones, but they and I'm even

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00:21:41,596 --> 00:21:44,396
Speaker 1: involved with a model, the Gold Tone is making that

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00:21:44,516 --> 00:21:46,476
Speaker 1: sort of modeled after this and they've you know, they've

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Speaker 1: done the best they can and everyone's doing the best

346
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Speaker 1: they can, but nobody has cracked the code of what

347
00:21:51,196 --> 00:21:54,316
Speaker 1: makes a pre war banjo what it is. I would

348
00:21:54,356 --> 00:21:56,876
Speaker 1: never claim that these new banjos are in the class

349
00:21:56,916 --> 00:21:59,836
Speaker 1: of the Gibsons from the thirties, and that's the one

350
00:21:59,876 --> 00:22:03,036
Speaker 1: I play every day still. How many of those do

351
00:22:03,076 --> 00:22:05,636
Speaker 1: you have? I probably have a dozen something around of those,

352
00:22:05,676 --> 00:22:07,396
Speaker 1: but I have, you know, more than a hundred banjos

353
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Speaker 1: around the house. They sort of collect they and I don't.

354
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Speaker 1: I'm not good at getting rid of them. I have

355
00:22:14,316 --> 00:22:17,036
Speaker 1: an infestation. You could say. Yeah, I like having them, though,

356
00:22:17,076 --> 00:22:19,276
Speaker 1: and people say invest in something, you know, you know,

357
00:22:19,636 --> 00:22:21,396
Speaker 1: And so over the years, like I bought them, I

358
00:22:21,396 --> 00:22:24,036
Speaker 1: started buying them, and like when I first got this one,

359
00:22:24,076 --> 00:22:25,916
Speaker 1: they were very hard to find. They were just not

360
00:22:25,916 --> 00:22:28,556
Speaker 1: not around. But over the years, sometimes suddenly they're available.

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00:22:28,996 --> 00:22:31,356
Speaker 1: Maybe some you know, older folks are passing and they

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Speaker 1: get back on the market or something. And so I

363
00:22:34,116 --> 00:22:37,156
Speaker 1: started buying them, and they kept going up and up.

364
00:22:37,196 --> 00:22:39,916
Speaker 1: So everything that I bought early on was worth way

365
00:22:39,916 --> 00:22:41,796
Speaker 1: more than I cost, you know, than I'd paid. And

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Speaker 1: then as the years went on, I started paying more

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00:22:43,516 --> 00:22:46,276
Speaker 1: for them, and then they weren't worth as much, you know,

368
00:22:46,396 --> 00:22:50,036
Speaker 1: as In other words, the investment wasn't as good, but

369
00:22:50,076 --> 00:22:52,956
Speaker 1: they still you know, appreciated. I'm still ahead of the

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00:22:52,996 --> 00:22:56,276
Speaker 1: game if if money matters, which a still a good question,

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00:22:56,316 --> 00:22:59,556
Speaker 1: that he's buying gold and crypto, Now, yeah, they're I

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00:22:59,556 --> 00:23:01,756
Speaker 1: would have thought that this investment would have been you know,

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00:23:01,836 --> 00:23:03,516
Speaker 1: gold for life, and that I could pass it on.

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00:23:03,596 --> 00:23:05,476
Speaker 1: But I think that at a certain point, people that

375
00:23:05,556 --> 00:23:08,396
Speaker 1: really know about these instruments are passing, so they don't actually,

376
00:23:08,396 --> 00:23:11,916
Speaker 1: you know, unless younger players can afford to get them.

377
00:23:11,956 --> 00:23:13,196
Speaker 1: And you know, and this one, you know, to get

378
00:23:13,236 --> 00:23:15,276
Speaker 1: an instrument like this, we're talking about one hundred thousand

379
00:23:15,276 --> 00:23:18,116
Speaker 1: dollars or eighty thousand dollars something in that that mode,

380
00:23:18,116 --> 00:23:20,476
Speaker 1: and if it's all original from the thirties, you know,

381
00:23:20,556 --> 00:23:22,676
Speaker 1: maybe one hundred and fifty thousand dollars was the price

382
00:23:22,716 --> 00:23:25,116
Speaker 1: a few years back, but now it's dropping a bit.

383
00:23:25,356 --> 00:23:27,636
Speaker 1: Do you tour with this one as well? Yeah, so's

384
00:23:27,676 --> 00:23:29,316
Speaker 1: kind of one of those guys that saves it for

385
00:23:29,356 --> 00:23:31,636
Speaker 1: the studio. No, No, I mean in the studio, what

386
00:23:31,716 --> 00:23:33,036
Speaker 1: I get to do is I get to like go

387
00:23:33,076 --> 00:23:35,916
Speaker 1: through my closet and go, I wonder which ancient instrument

388
00:23:35,916 --> 00:23:38,156
Speaker 1: would sound good? On this song, you know, and I

389
00:23:38,156 --> 00:23:39,996
Speaker 1: get to do that. But the truth is they don't

390
00:23:39,996 --> 00:23:42,596
Speaker 1: all handle to travel that well. But this one I've

391
00:23:42,636 --> 00:23:45,876
Speaker 1: traveled with since nineteen eighty one and I always keep

392
00:23:45,876 --> 00:23:48,716
Speaker 1: it set up, you know, to play and flying with it.

393
00:23:48,716 --> 00:23:51,676
Speaker 1: They're very heavy to carry around and if it goes

394
00:23:51,756 --> 00:23:54,796
Speaker 1: under the plane, you're sunk, you know, So I often

395
00:23:54,796 --> 00:23:56,916
Speaker 1: buy tickets for it or find you know, I have

396
00:23:56,956 --> 00:23:59,036
Speaker 1: to have strategies when I'm traveling for how I'm gonna

397
00:23:59,036 --> 00:24:01,996
Speaker 1: get the banjo on. Wow. Yeah, it's a pain in

398
00:24:02,036 --> 00:24:04,836
Speaker 1: the ass, very serious. It's a pain, but it's worth

399
00:24:04,836 --> 00:24:07,036
Speaker 1: it when I get there and I'm playing this instrument.

400
00:24:07,796 --> 00:24:10,636
Speaker 1: They call them flatheads because they're banjos that have raised

401
00:24:10,636 --> 00:24:12,916
Speaker 1: heads where the top raises up and there's a smaller

402
00:24:12,956 --> 00:24:16,076
Speaker 1: resonating surface of the skin. But a flathead has a

403
00:24:16,116 --> 00:24:19,156
Speaker 1: larger resonating surface and that creates a deeper tone in

404
00:24:19,236 --> 00:24:21,436
Speaker 1: earl scrugs. Even though you might have it in your

405
00:24:21,436 --> 00:24:24,516
Speaker 1: head that banjos are bright, he had a pretty rich sound,

406
00:24:24,796 --> 00:24:27,356
Speaker 1: especially in certain periods of his life. Why are all

407
00:24:27,436 --> 00:24:30,756
Speaker 1: banjo players obsessed with earl scrugs. Earl scruggs is the

408
00:24:30,756 --> 00:24:33,716
Speaker 1: trigger that turns banjo players on. You know, if you're

409
00:24:33,756 --> 00:24:36,476
Speaker 1: if you're a dormant banjo player that could be a

410
00:24:36,476 --> 00:24:38,836
Speaker 1: banjo player, you have to hear Earl Scruggs to suddenly

411
00:24:39,676 --> 00:24:43,436
Speaker 1: become a banjo seeking zombie. And that was that was

412
00:24:43,516 --> 00:24:45,396
Speaker 1: for me. I grew up here in New York City

413
00:24:45,476 --> 00:24:48,636
Speaker 1: and one hundredth Street, West End, and then I heard

414
00:24:48,676 --> 00:24:51,956
Speaker 1: the banjo on the Beverly Hillbillies and it flipped a

415
00:24:51,996 --> 00:24:54,716
Speaker 1: trigger and me and I, you know, and no interest

416
00:24:54,756 --> 00:24:57,116
Speaker 1: in country music, folk music, anything like that. I was

417
00:24:57,556 --> 00:24:59,916
Speaker 1: a Beatles kid, you know, a New York City Beatles kid,

418
00:25:00,396 --> 00:25:02,476
Speaker 1: Upper West Side. But I heard the banjo and it

419
00:25:02,556 --> 00:25:04,516
Speaker 1: just I was like, what is that? I gotta know

420
00:25:04,516 --> 00:25:07,076
Speaker 1: what that is? And it's interesting that from most of

421
00:25:07,076 --> 00:25:11,076
Speaker 1: the people that become bluegrass banjo like professionals or just

422
00:25:11,196 --> 00:25:13,636
Speaker 1: you know, people that love that instrument get good at it,

423
00:25:13,636 --> 00:25:17,076
Speaker 1: it's always Earl Scruggs itself. Almost never anybody else that

424
00:25:17,196 --> 00:25:20,556
Speaker 1: flips the switch. Did he do new things with the

425
00:25:20,596 --> 00:25:23,076
Speaker 1: banjo or did he just perfect what it was already there?

426
00:25:23,276 --> 00:25:27,196
Speaker 1: Did he started this whole He didn't start it, but

427
00:25:27,316 --> 00:25:30,036
Speaker 1: he perfected this way of playing. There are other people

428
00:25:30,036 --> 00:25:31,836
Speaker 1: that did it around this time. This would have been

429
00:25:31,956 --> 00:25:35,236
Speaker 1: you know, nineteen maybe twenties when he was coming up

430
00:25:35,236 --> 00:25:38,316
Speaker 1: with it on the farm in Flint Hill, North Carolina.

431
00:25:38,356 --> 00:25:41,036
Speaker 1: There were other people experimenting with adding a third finger,

432
00:25:41,116 --> 00:25:46,076
Speaker 1: because nobody played with three fingers plucking much before that

433
00:25:46,116 --> 00:25:48,556
Speaker 1: time period, and so there were other people who were,

434
00:25:48,796 --> 00:25:50,796
Speaker 1: you know, also working at it, and you could find

435
00:25:50,796 --> 00:25:53,636
Speaker 1: people that did it even before in earlier banjo ages,

436
00:25:53,636 --> 00:25:56,596
Speaker 1: before the whole period of the banjo. So anyway, this

437
00:25:56,716 --> 00:25:58,956
Speaker 1: three finger style that Earl Scruggs came up with was

438
00:25:58,996 --> 00:26:01,476
Speaker 1: adding a finger to a two finger style, and it

439
00:26:01,556 --> 00:26:04,236
Speaker 1: created the opportunity for all this rippling. You know, you

440
00:26:04,276 --> 00:26:06,836
Speaker 1: get three fingers on five strings playing in four to four.

441
00:26:07,076 --> 00:26:09,916
Speaker 1: You've got all these threes and twos opening over the beat,

442
00:26:09,956 --> 00:26:12,156
Speaker 1: and all of a sudden you get syncopation like crazy

443
00:26:12,636 --> 00:26:15,116
Speaker 1: and this drive that he played with, And it wouldn't

444
00:26:15,156 --> 00:26:18,156
Speaker 1: have mattered except he was so good. You know, anyone

445
00:26:18,236 --> 00:26:20,676
Speaker 1: could have taken the claim that of you know, inventing

446
00:26:20,676 --> 00:26:23,716
Speaker 1: three finger playing around that time, but he was the best.

447
00:26:23,876 --> 00:26:25,556
Speaker 1: You know, he was so good if he had this

448
00:26:25,636 --> 00:26:28,156
Speaker 1: galvanizing sound and it made you stop in your tracks

449
00:26:28,156 --> 00:26:30,436
Speaker 1: and you had to hear it and talking about the Beatles.

450
00:26:30,756 --> 00:26:33,796
Speaker 1: He joined Bill Monroe's band, and Bill Monroe was kind

451
00:26:33,796 --> 00:26:35,756
Speaker 1: of a big deal on the Grand Old Opry, and

452
00:26:35,796 --> 00:26:37,356
Speaker 1: so he got to come on the Grand Old Opry

453
00:26:37,356 --> 00:26:39,716
Speaker 1: and play with Bill Monroe. And that was like the

454
00:26:39,756 --> 00:26:42,556
Speaker 1: first time people heard bluegrass. That was the moment bluegrass

455
00:26:42,596 --> 00:26:45,356
Speaker 1: happened to the world, as when they heard Earl Scruggs

456
00:26:45,356 --> 00:26:47,236
Speaker 1: playing with Bill Monroe. For Lester Flatt was also in

457
00:26:47,276 --> 00:26:49,796
Speaker 1: the band, people talk about it being a Beatles reaction.

458
00:26:50,156 --> 00:26:52,636
Speaker 1: The room erupted. No one had ever heard anything like

459
00:26:52,716 --> 00:26:55,436
Speaker 1: this style of banjo playing before. It was nothing there,

460
00:26:55,796 --> 00:26:59,876
Speaker 1: Nothing had ever been done like that, and it made

461
00:26:59,916 --> 00:27:02,916
Speaker 1: them into superstars in the South and anywhere where you

462
00:27:02,916 --> 00:27:05,996
Speaker 1: could hear that show. And then it just spread. So

463
00:27:06,036 --> 00:27:07,916
Speaker 1: not only was he the most well known because of

464
00:27:07,996 --> 00:27:09,836
Speaker 1: his you know, his time with Bill Monroe and then

465
00:27:09,836 --> 00:27:12,956
Speaker 1: starting Flatt and Scrugs, he was the best. Everybody still

466
00:27:12,956 --> 00:27:14,836
Speaker 1: stops in their tracks if you're a banjo player to

467
00:27:14,876 --> 00:27:16,956
Speaker 1: hear hear him play things. We've heard him play our

468
00:27:16,956 --> 00:27:19,116
Speaker 1: whole lives. You know, it's just got that magic. If

469
00:27:19,156 --> 00:27:20,876
Speaker 1: you still hear that magic in his play, I do

470
00:27:21,276 --> 00:27:23,356
Speaker 1: I do, I can listen to the Beverly Hillbill. He's

471
00:27:23,396 --> 00:27:25,916
Speaker 1: the first thing I heard and just go wow. And

472
00:27:25,956 --> 00:27:27,516
Speaker 1: I you know, I know it's a joke, and I

473
00:27:27,516 --> 00:27:29,876
Speaker 1: know it's part of the stereotypes that gets you know

474
00:27:29,956 --> 00:27:32,516
Speaker 1: that I hate. I always seem to be fighting against.

475
00:27:32,596 --> 00:27:34,876
Speaker 1: But I just it's the magic. He had the magic.

476
00:27:35,276 --> 00:27:36,876
Speaker 1: And I got to know him in his late years.

477
00:27:36,876 --> 00:27:39,756
Speaker 1: He lived about two miles from where I lived in Nashville,

478
00:27:39,796 --> 00:27:42,076
Speaker 1: and we got to be pretty close in his late

479
00:27:42,156 --> 00:27:44,356
Speaker 1: later time, you know, And he's just sitting on the couch.

480
00:27:44,716 --> 00:27:48,036
Speaker 1: He's very funny too, isn't he? Guy? Could he still play? Yeah?

481
00:27:48,076 --> 00:27:49,916
Speaker 1: He played. He'd get out of his banjo, we'd sit

482
00:27:49,956 --> 00:27:52,556
Speaker 1: and play. He always take my banjo and play it

483
00:27:52,556 --> 00:27:54,316
Speaker 1: because I have a weird setup, like I have an

484
00:27:54,396 --> 00:27:57,316
Speaker 1: arched fingerboard like a violin, you know, or something. And

485
00:27:58,156 --> 00:28:01,036
Speaker 1: he really liked it. And I also keep my bandjo

486
00:28:01,156 --> 00:28:02,996
Speaker 1: real fat and his was kind of bright, and so

487
00:28:03,036 --> 00:28:04,796
Speaker 1: he would take it from me. He wouldn't give it

488
00:28:04,796 --> 00:28:07,436
Speaker 1: back to me and play and he would sound amazing

489
00:28:07,556 --> 00:28:10,516
Speaker 1: and play. You know. He rushed. He was always always ahead,

490
00:28:10,596 --> 00:28:12,276
Speaker 1: and that was part of the bluegrass drive. But he

491
00:28:12,716 --> 00:28:15,076
Speaker 1: is rushing, got a little out of control later on,

492
00:28:15,116 --> 00:28:17,836
Speaker 1: but it was still he played things. He's surprised you

493
00:28:17,836 --> 00:28:20,476
Speaker 1: all the time with things he played. I've never heard

494
00:28:20,516 --> 00:28:22,836
Speaker 1: that about bluegrass. You're always you're always pushing the beat

495
00:28:22,836 --> 00:28:25,356
Speaker 1: a little bit. Yeah. The thing about bluegrass time we

496
00:28:25,436 --> 00:28:27,476
Speaker 1: call it, which is also this big deal to us

497
00:28:27,516 --> 00:28:30,676
Speaker 1: bluegrass musicians, is the way it feels and it's like

498
00:28:30,716 --> 00:28:33,716
Speaker 1: a magic carpet ride where everyone's pushing the rhythm but

499
00:28:33,756 --> 00:28:36,316
Speaker 1: hopefully you're not actually speeding up, but you're playing on

500
00:28:36,356 --> 00:28:39,156
Speaker 1: the front end of the of the beat. And you know,

501
00:28:39,196 --> 00:28:40,956
Speaker 1: we talk about that with drummers all the time. You know,

502
00:28:40,996 --> 00:28:42,436
Speaker 1: he's a back of the beat kind of guy, or

503
00:28:42,476 --> 00:28:44,676
Speaker 1: he's in front of the beat kind of guy. In

504
00:28:44,716 --> 00:28:47,436
Speaker 1: a perfect world, you wouldn't pick up, but you'd still

505
00:28:47,436 --> 00:28:49,796
Speaker 1: have that feeling that it was, you know, moving forward.

506
00:28:49,836 --> 00:28:52,596
Speaker 1: And we call that drive and blue grass music and

507
00:28:52,756 --> 00:28:55,636
Speaker 1: as applied to everything I do. You know, if I'm playing,

508
00:28:55,676 --> 00:28:58,276
Speaker 1: when I was playing with Chick Korea or Zaki Hussein,

509
00:28:58,316 --> 00:29:00,516
Speaker 1: I always try to play with that forward lean, but

510
00:29:00,916 --> 00:29:03,276
Speaker 1: again without speeding up. A little speeding up's okay, but

511
00:29:03,276 --> 00:29:05,796
Speaker 1: if it goes past a certain amount, it's not okay.

512
00:29:06,076 --> 00:29:08,356
Speaker 1: You know, I remember, and I didn't really understand at

513
00:29:08,356 --> 00:29:11,756
Speaker 1: the time, but the Stacks beat, the Stacks record label.

514
00:29:12,276 --> 00:29:14,276
Speaker 1: I think how Jackson was the drummer, he was always

515
00:29:14,316 --> 00:29:16,996
Speaker 1: a little particularly the I guess the fourth beat was

516
00:29:16,996 --> 00:29:19,236
Speaker 1: always a little behind. So blue gust is always always

517
00:29:19,276 --> 00:29:21,796
Speaker 1: pushing a little bit. Blue grass is always pushing, yeah,

518
00:29:21,836 --> 00:29:24,956
Speaker 1: and the soloist leads the charge. In that way, it's

519
00:29:24,996 --> 00:29:28,036
Speaker 1: similar to jazz and that the soloist dictates how that

520
00:29:28,356 --> 00:29:30,956
Speaker 1: the other players play. So the way the way that

521
00:29:30,996 --> 00:29:32,996
Speaker 1: you would play as a banjo player behind the fiddle

522
00:29:33,796 --> 00:29:35,396
Speaker 1: is one way, and the way you'd play behind the

523
00:29:35,516 --> 00:29:37,236
Speaker 1: mental end player is a different way, and the way

524
00:29:37,276 --> 00:29:40,196
Speaker 1: you play behind the vocalist is another way. And whoever's

525
00:29:40,196 --> 00:29:42,716
Speaker 1: closest to the microphone has the power, you know, because

526
00:29:42,716 --> 00:29:44,956
Speaker 1: it was a music that was like a one mic music,

527
00:29:44,996 --> 00:29:47,876
Speaker 1: you would he was for performance. It was live. It

528
00:29:47,916 --> 00:29:50,196
Speaker 1: wasn't you know, roots music and people played around the house.

529
00:29:50,196 --> 00:29:52,836
Speaker 1: It was performance music was built up before performed on

530
00:29:52,956 --> 00:29:56,996
Speaker 1: radio in theaters on one microphone. So the person who's

531
00:29:57,036 --> 00:29:59,516
Speaker 1: up front is louder, so automatically everyone follows the lead.

532
00:29:59,996 --> 00:30:01,996
Speaker 1: If the banjo's up front, you're gonna play to his groove,

533
00:30:02,036 --> 00:30:03,836
Speaker 1: and maybe he's got a little more straight eights, maybe

534
00:30:03,876 --> 00:30:05,916
Speaker 1: he's got a little more bounced since swinging is playing.

535
00:30:06,036 --> 00:30:07,956
Speaker 1: Fiddle player comes up, he's got a whole different groove.

536
00:30:08,036 --> 00:30:10,596
Speaker 1: The band changes. A good bluegrass band knows how to

537
00:30:11,476 --> 00:30:14,836
Speaker 1: do this dance, every verse, every chorus, every instrumental has

538
00:30:14,876 --> 00:30:17,556
Speaker 1: a different feel, and they know how to make each

539
00:30:17,636 --> 00:30:20,636
Speaker 1: thing happen. And it's like, I don't know, I think

540
00:30:20,676 --> 00:30:22,676
Speaker 1: it's like a great sports team, you know, a great

541
00:30:22,676 --> 00:30:25,756
Speaker 1: basketball team, passing to each other and following the lead

542
00:30:25,796 --> 00:30:28,276
Speaker 1: of the person who's got the ball. Yeah. But the

543
00:30:28,316 --> 00:30:30,596
Speaker 1: thing about it is the bango is facing away from you,

544
00:30:30,676 --> 00:30:32,796
Speaker 1: So if you're standing up playing the banjo, you can't

545
00:30:32,836 --> 00:30:35,836
Speaker 1: hear yourself, but you're bludgeoning everyone around you, and the

546
00:30:35,836 --> 00:30:37,636
Speaker 1: fiddle player who's got the fiddle right by his ear.

547
00:30:37,676 --> 00:30:39,276
Speaker 1: If you're standing next to a fiddle player, you can't

548
00:30:39,316 --> 00:30:40,676
Speaker 1: hear yourself at all. All you can hear as a

549
00:30:40,676 --> 00:30:43,076
Speaker 1: fiddle because your ears are near the fiddle. Yeah, so's

550
00:30:43,116 --> 00:30:45,876
Speaker 1: it's an odd thing. Banjo players, you know, playing too

551
00:30:45,916 --> 00:30:48,676
Speaker 1: loud is partly because they can't hear themselves even though

552
00:30:48,716 --> 00:30:51,716
Speaker 1: they've got the loudest instrument in the room. So you

553
00:30:51,716 --> 00:30:54,716
Speaker 1: you didn't study at college. You went straight to playing,

554
00:30:54,796 --> 00:30:57,476
Speaker 1: didn't you. Just yeah, I think if Berkeley at that

555
00:30:57,556 --> 00:31:00,916
Speaker 1: point had been taking, you know, banjo majors like they

556
00:31:00,916 --> 00:31:03,196
Speaker 1: are now, I would have gone somewhere like that, or

557
00:31:03,276 --> 00:31:06,036
Speaker 1: East Appalachian State, or there's one in Texas where you

558
00:31:06,076 --> 00:31:08,916
Speaker 1: could major own banjo in the last decades, but not back.

559
00:31:09,156 --> 00:31:11,516
Speaker 1: And so I just went and joined a band out

560
00:31:11,516 --> 00:31:15,076
Speaker 1: of high school. And I got lucky because my mom

561
00:31:15,076 --> 00:31:18,556
Speaker 1: and my stepdad had an unexpected child when I was

562
00:31:18,756 --> 00:31:21,876
Speaker 1: a senior in high school. And keep remembering my mother's

563
00:31:21,876 --> 00:31:24,716
Speaker 1: a teacher as well, and my stepfather he was actually

564
00:31:24,756 --> 00:31:28,036
Speaker 1: the head of guidance for the Brooklyn school systems. And

565
00:31:28,276 --> 00:31:30,316
Speaker 1: I got through high school and they never noticed that

566
00:31:30,356 --> 00:31:34,196
Speaker 1: I didn't apply to college because they were just so

567
00:31:34,636 --> 00:31:37,196
Speaker 1: dazed by having a child, a baby in the house,

568
00:31:37,276 --> 00:31:38,796
Speaker 1: and I got so at the end. All of a sudden,

569
00:31:38,796 --> 00:31:41,116
Speaker 1: they realized, wait, where are you going? And I was like,

570
00:31:41,836 --> 00:31:46,596
Speaker 1: it's too late, sorry, you know, and you knew you

571
00:31:46,636 --> 00:31:48,116
Speaker 1: wanted to be a musician. I didn't want to go

572
00:31:48,156 --> 00:31:50,516
Speaker 1: to college and spend my time. I wanted to go play,

573
00:31:50,596 --> 00:31:52,676
Speaker 1: you know. I wanted to play the banjo. We have

574
00:31:52,716 --> 00:31:54,716
Speaker 1: to take one last break, and then we're back with

575
00:31:54,756 --> 00:32:01,556
Speaker 1: more from Baila Fleck. We're back with the remainder of

576
00:32:01,596 --> 00:32:05,716
Speaker 1: Bruce Hedlam's conversation with Baila Flack. I mean, I knew

577
00:32:05,716 --> 00:32:07,356
Speaker 1: you heard the banjo when you were four or five,

578
00:32:07,476 --> 00:32:10,116
Speaker 1: you loved it, you got when when you were Yeah,

579
00:32:10,236 --> 00:32:12,876
Speaker 1: at what point did you say, well, the banjo is

580
00:32:12,876 --> 00:32:14,756
Speaker 1: going to be my life? Was there moment? It wasn't

581
00:32:14,756 --> 00:32:18,796
Speaker 1: a voluntary thing. It was an involuntary thing. It was like,

582
00:32:18,836 --> 00:32:21,356
Speaker 1: from the moment the banjo was in my hands, I

583
00:32:21,396 --> 00:32:24,036
Speaker 1: didn't care about anything else. I would go to school

584
00:32:24,076 --> 00:32:25,996
Speaker 1: and I'd be in a cold sweat waiting to get

585
00:32:26,036 --> 00:32:28,556
Speaker 1: home to my banjo. I think it did a lot

586
00:32:28,596 --> 00:32:30,916
Speaker 1: of things for me. I guess psychologically it gave me

587
00:32:30,956 --> 00:32:33,916
Speaker 1: something to focus on, something to care about, an escape.

588
00:32:33,956 --> 00:32:35,596
Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean, not like my life was

589
00:32:35,636 --> 00:32:37,796
Speaker 1: all that terrible. It wasn't. It was a perfectly good,

590
00:32:37,876 --> 00:32:41,316
Speaker 1: middle class life on the Upper West Side. But something

591
00:32:41,356 --> 00:32:44,196
Speaker 1: about it was just so compelling, and I couldn't put

592
00:32:44,236 --> 00:32:46,196
Speaker 1: it down. You know, after school there'd be a hang

593
00:32:46,316 --> 00:32:48,716
Speaker 1: with kids, and I could go for a few minutes

594
00:32:48,716 --> 00:32:50,276
Speaker 1: before I just had to leave I just had to

595
00:32:50,316 --> 00:32:52,556
Speaker 1: go home and play, and I started taking the banjo

596
00:32:52,596 --> 00:32:56,156
Speaker 1: to school, playing between classes, cutting classes and hanging out

597
00:32:56,156 --> 00:32:58,396
Speaker 1: in city college. I went to Music and Art High

598
00:32:58,396 --> 00:33:00,916
Speaker 1: School when it was up in Harlem, so there's a

599
00:33:00,916 --> 00:33:03,516
Speaker 1: lot of music surrounded by music, you know, and the

600
00:33:03,516 --> 00:33:05,276
Speaker 1: folks that I went to high school with, you know,

601
00:33:05,316 --> 00:33:09,676
Speaker 1: like Omarha Kim was there with me, and Kenny Washington

602
00:33:09,796 --> 00:33:14,396
Speaker 1: and Marcus Miller, we were all there together, and Don

603
00:33:14,436 --> 00:33:16,516
Speaker 1: Byer and all these guys that have had these great

604
00:33:16,516 --> 00:33:21,756
Speaker 1: careers playing jazz and rock and so forth. Were you

605
00:33:22,036 --> 00:33:24,276
Speaker 1: starting to play jazz then on the band? Yeah, I

606
00:33:24,316 --> 00:33:27,596
Speaker 1: was trying. I had my teacher, my last teacher, Tony Trishka,

607
00:33:27,756 --> 00:33:30,436
Speaker 1: was doing a lot of exploring with the banjo. He

608
00:33:30,476 --> 00:33:32,876
Speaker 1: was really the guy who said, hey, you can do anything.

609
00:33:32,996 --> 00:33:35,356
Speaker 1: You don't have to do that. I noticed when I

610
00:33:35,356 --> 00:33:38,876
Speaker 1: went to high school, if I could play led Zeppelin lick,

611
00:33:39,476 --> 00:33:42,116
Speaker 1: everybody thought that was cool, much cooler than if I'd

612
00:33:42,116 --> 00:33:44,516
Speaker 1: played them a flatt and scrugs tune. Right. So I

613
00:33:44,556 --> 00:33:46,996
Speaker 1: noticed that that got me more attention, and so that

614
00:33:47,276 --> 00:33:49,876
Speaker 1: was interesting or a grateful dad riff or something that

615
00:33:50,156 --> 00:33:53,476
Speaker 1: was more cool. But I was just interested in the

616
00:33:53,556 --> 00:33:55,956
Speaker 1: musical ideas that were in all these different musics and

617
00:33:55,996 --> 00:33:57,876
Speaker 1: trying to figure out how to learn them on the

618
00:33:57,916 --> 00:34:00,596
Speaker 1: banjo was fun. And then I mean, you've started doing

619
00:34:00,636 --> 00:34:03,916
Speaker 1: your own albums pretty early. Yeah. I moved to Boston

620
00:34:04,116 --> 00:34:07,556
Speaker 1: right out of high school seventy six, and I think

621
00:34:07,596 --> 00:34:09,396
Speaker 1: seventy nine I made my first albums. I think I

622
00:34:09,436 --> 00:34:11,356
Speaker 1: was still twenty when I made the first record, maybe

623
00:34:11,356 --> 00:34:13,676
Speaker 1: twenty one. Wow, I mean, you must have had great

624
00:34:13,916 --> 00:34:17,436
Speaker 1: chops at that point. It was kind of weird, like, Okay,

625
00:34:17,436 --> 00:34:21,676
Speaker 1: so Tony who was arguably the greatest banjo player of

626
00:34:21,796 --> 00:34:24,596
Speaker 1: the period. I only say arguably because he was such

627
00:34:24,636 --> 00:34:28,116
Speaker 1: a progressive. So some people might debate me, but I

628
00:34:28,116 --> 00:34:30,756
Speaker 1: don't really think you can debate me on the talent

629
00:34:30,836 --> 00:34:34,036
Speaker 1: and the quality of his music. But he was my teacher,

630
00:34:34,596 --> 00:34:37,556
Speaker 1: And after a couple of years of playing, people said

631
00:34:37,596 --> 00:34:39,916
Speaker 1: they couldn't tell the difference between him and me, like

632
00:34:39,956 --> 00:34:42,516
Speaker 1: if we were somewhere and we were both playing. That

633
00:34:42,676 --> 00:34:44,916
Speaker 1: was their compliment. They said, Hey, I was listening to

634
00:34:44,956 --> 00:34:46,556
Speaker 1: you guys play at close my eyes, I couldn't tell

635
00:34:46,596 --> 00:34:49,156
Speaker 1: who was who. I was such a I copied him

636
00:34:49,236 --> 00:34:53,356
Speaker 1: so intently that I could do most I mean not

637
00:34:53,796 --> 00:34:57,956
Speaker 1: the years of life and humanity and practice and creativity

638
00:34:57,956 --> 00:34:59,796
Speaker 1: that he had, but I could. I learned quite a

639
00:34:59,796 --> 00:35:01,796
Speaker 1: lot of what he could do, and so that made

640
00:35:01,836 --> 00:35:05,836
Speaker 1: me an unusual banjo player, because nobody could really do

641
00:35:05,916 --> 00:35:07,916
Speaker 1: that back then but him. So now I had all

642
00:35:07,916 --> 00:35:10,716
Speaker 1: of his toolkit to draw from. I'm not saying I

643
00:35:10,756 --> 00:35:13,436
Speaker 1: was Tony, but I was darned I'd really learned a

644
00:35:13,436 --> 00:35:15,836
Speaker 1: lot of it, you know. So then the thing was

645
00:35:15,876 --> 00:35:18,636
Speaker 1: I suddenly realized, though there already is a Tony Trishka,

646
00:35:18,676 --> 00:35:20,676
Speaker 1: I got to find my thing. And then I started

647
00:35:21,236 --> 00:35:24,556
Speaker 1: very consciously exploring things that he didn't do and looking

648
00:35:24,556 --> 00:35:26,436
Speaker 1: for the things that I could do that would be

649
00:35:26,516 --> 00:35:29,076
Speaker 1: my unique stamp on it. And then I immediately went

650
00:35:29,076 --> 00:35:32,356
Speaker 1: into bands and started touring. And I'm anunit ever since.

651
00:35:32,476 --> 00:35:34,916
Speaker 1: What was it you found in your playing? What distinguishes

652
00:35:34,956 --> 00:35:37,436
Speaker 1: you're playing from other banjo? Well, Tony and I'm jealous

653
00:35:37,516 --> 00:35:39,796
Speaker 1: of these qualities in his playing. He's a primitive, like

654
00:35:39,876 --> 00:35:42,436
Speaker 1: he can draw on some theoretical knowledge, but he figures

655
00:35:42,436 --> 00:35:44,996
Speaker 1: out things in a very primitive kind of way, and

656
00:35:45,036 --> 00:35:47,356
Speaker 1: it's like a high tech primitive thing that he does.

657
00:35:47,716 --> 00:35:50,356
Speaker 1: I am more of the kind of guy who wants

658
00:35:50,356 --> 00:35:53,156
Speaker 1: to know every scale like I have to. If I

659
00:35:53,236 --> 00:35:55,036
Speaker 1: learned a scale, I have to learn it in every key,

660
00:35:55,436 --> 00:35:57,836
Speaker 1: major and minor, all the way up and down the banjo,

661
00:35:57,956 --> 00:36:01,196
Speaker 1: from the bottom open string to the last thread of

662
00:36:01,276 --> 00:36:03,516
Speaker 1: a high string. I wanted to do all that. He

663
00:36:03,556 --> 00:36:06,036
Speaker 1: hadn't done that. So when I started to do that

664
00:36:06,636 --> 00:36:10,756
Speaker 1: and started learning luck legit jazz repertoire and language and

665
00:36:10,796 --> 00:36:14,516
Speaker 1: classical things, suddenly I had some knowledge on the banjo

666
00:36:14,716 --> 00:36:17,556
Speaker 1: that was different, you know, that was new to the

667
00:36:17,596 --> 00:36:19,636
Speaker 1: instrument Somewhere. I don't know. I don't know how to

668
00:36:19,676 --> 00:36:21,756
Speaker 1: say what's new, because I mean, you know, in the

669
00:36:21,796 --> 00:36:24,196
Speaker 1: twenties there are people playing jazz stuff on the banjo

670
00:36:24,236 --> 00:36:26,236
Speaker 1: that still hasn't been equaled. But it was a different banjo.

671
00:36:26,276 --> 00:36:28,356
Speaker 1: It was a different tuning. As we were talking about before,

672
00:36:28,756 --> 00:36:30,756
Speaker 1: who were the jazz players you were listening to at

673
00:36:30,796 --> 00:36:33,796
Speaker 1: that point that informed jo playing? Well? When I started playing,

674
00:36:33,876 --> 00:36:36,556
Speaker 1: I mean I certainly I listened to Joe Pass and

675
00:36:36,676 --> 00:36:38,636
Speaker 1: Oscar Peterson and people like that. I was a real

676
00:36:38,716 --> 00:36:41,876
Speaker 1: big fan of Charlie Parker. I loved Charlie Parker's playing,

677
00:36:41,956 --> 00:36:45,996
Speaker 1: and for me, Charlie Parker had the same rhythmic intensity

678
00:36:45,996 --> 00:36:50,036
Speaker 1: of earl scrugs. And then one day at jazz appreciation

679
00:36:50,076 --> 00:36:52,796
Speaker 1: class in high school, the teacher his names Justin d. Chocho.

680
00:36:52,876 --> 00:36:56,036
Speaker 1: He's a great jazz teacher. He played Chick Corea's recording

681
00:36:56,036 --> 00:36:59,196
Speaker 1: of Spain and that blew my mind because like the

682
00:36:59,276 --> 00:37:01,676
Speaker 1: sound of that electric piano, there was something about it,

683
00:37:01,716 --> 00:37:04,316
Speaker 1: all the short stabby notes. I was like, I don't

684
00:37:04,316 --> 00:37:06,156
Speaker 1: think I could play like stan Gets, but I might

685
00:37:06,196 --> 00:37:08,436
Speaker 1: be able to play like that on the banjo, you know,

686
00:37:08,436 --> 00:37:11,916
Speaker 1: And I don't think he was lost stacato so staccato, yeah,

687
00:37:12,116 --> 00:37:14,316
Speaker 1: and he was all about time. And also he you know,

688
00:37:14,356 --> 00:37:16,356
Speaker 1: they're a pianists who, you know, run up and down

689
00:37:16,756 --> 00:37:20,236
Speaker 1: the piano, you know, constantly, and you know you can't

690
00:37:20,236 --> 00:37:21,716
Speaker 1: do that on the banjo. I don't have the range.

691
00:37:21,756 --> 00:37:25,316
Speaker 1: But if you go act we you know, like he

692
00:37:25,316 --> 00:37:27,396
Speaker 1: would do these back and forth things with his two hands,

693
00:37:27,716 --> 00:37:30,076
Speaker 1: that I could do short phrases that were very rhythmic,

694
00:37:30,116 --> 00:37:31,796
Speaker 1: like a lot of Monk influence, and that he was

695
00:37:31,916 --> 00:37:35,676
Speaker 1: very rhythmically focused on playing these unique rhythmic ideas with

696
00:37:35,716 --> 00:37:39,036
Speaker 1: a lot of intensity. I could see how that might work.

697
00:37:39,356 --> 00:37:41,676
Speaker 1: And then you did it on your first album. I

698
00:37:41,716 --> 00:37:43,916
Speaker 1: did record that song that I want to see him

699
00:37:43,956 --> 00:37:45,716
Speaker 1: when I was in high school, like at the Beacon

700
00:37:45,756 --> 00:37:48,556
Speaker 1: Theater with Return to Forever, and that blew my mind.

701
00:37:48,716 --> 00:37:52,036
Speaker 1: You know. Hearing him play with Stanley Clark and Lenny

702
00:37:52,076 --> 00:37:54,996
Speaker 1: White and Aldamola was like to imagine, you know, like

703
00:37:55,116 --> 00:37:58,716
Speaker 1: some people say, oh, that's not the greatest music or whatever,

704
00:37:58,796 --> 00:38:02,236
Speaker 1: but like imagine being a seventeen year old never hearing

705
00:38:02,236 --> 00:38:04,476
Speaker 1: anything like that and walking and sitting down at the

706
00:38:04,476 --> 00:38:08,156
Speaker 1: Beacon Theater and hearing that. I mean, it was unbelievable,

707
00:38:08,276 --> 00:38:10,596
Speaker 1: and I never it's the same. It had that impact

708
00:38:10,596 --> 00:38:12,676
Speaker 1: that Earl Scruggs had, like the three people from Me

709
00:38:12,796 --> 00:38:16,996
Speaker 1: or Earl Scruggs, Charlie Parker and Ship Korea. And then

710
00:38:16,996 --> 00:38:19,516
Speaker 1: there were guys like Pat Martino playing around the city

711
00:38:19,676 --> 00:38:21,396
Speaker 1: two around that time, and I got to see him

712
00:38:21,396 --> 00:38:24,436
Speaker 1: in person a few times. And he also played these

713
00:38:24,556 --> 00:38:28,796
Speaker 1: long lines, long, very rhythmic, you know, rhythmically solid lines.

714
00:38:29,396 --> 00:38:31,276
Speaker 1: Also reminded me of banjo playing. I was like, I

715
00:38:31,316 --> 00:38:33,356
Speaker 1: think I could play like that too, not that I

716
00:38:33,396 --> 00:38:35,876
Speaker 1: had the ability, but that that would be possible on

717
00:38:35,876 --> 00:38:39,196
Speaker 1: the banjo, long that long lines that jazz players play

718
00:38:39,276 --> 00:38:41,796
Speaker 1: the jazz guitar players play in particular because they don't

719
00:38:41,836 --> 00:38:43,716
Speaker 1: have to take a breath, and you don't have to

720
00:38:43,716 --> 00:38:45,636
Speaker 1: take a breath on the banjo. So again you're going

721
00:38:45,676 --> 00:38:48,156
Speaker 1: back to the perpetual motion idea that you were bringing

722
00:38:48,196 --> 00:38:50,716
Speaker 1: up before. That's what the banjo does really well, and

723
00:38:50,796 --> 00:38:53,076
Speaker 1: you do hear that a lot in jazz and classical music.

724
00:38:53,196 --> 00:38:55,036
Speaker 1: Music with a lot of space because you're not used

725
00:38:55,036 --> 00:38:57,356
Speaker 1: to hearing the banjo have that kind of space, and

726
00:38:57,356 --> 00:38:59,996
Speaker 1: it can be very plaintive and beautiful when you figure

727
00:39:00,036 --> 00:39:03,316
Speaker 1: out how to leave that space. So when you did

728
00:39:03,516 --> 00:39:07,596
Speaker 1: your classical record, that was an example you did. You

729
00:39:07,676 --> 00:39:10,796
Speaker 1: did the chopin, you did is Cello Sweet I did. Yeah, Yeah,

730
00:39:10,796 --> 00:39:13,276
Speaker 1: that's right. Yeah, but you don't have sustain and you

731
00:39:13,316 --> 00:39:16,076
Speaker 1: don't have that great a dynamic range. Is that Is

732
00:39:16,076 --> 00:39:18,596
Speaker 1: that fair to say? That's very true, very disappointing, but

733
00:39:18,716 --> 00:39:21,916
Speaker 1: very true. So the thing about that record is, you know,

734
00:39:21,956 --> 00:39:25,236
Speaker 1: down in Nashville you have this thing called songwriter demos,

735
00:39:25,276 --> 00:39:27,676
Speaker 1: Like if you're making a vocal record, you get a

736
00:39:27,676 --> 00:39:30,316
Speaker 1: pile of tapes from different songwriters and you pop them

737
00:39:30,316 --> 00:39:31,756
Speaker 1: in your cassette till you hear one you like, and

738
00:39:31,756 --> 00:39:33,516
Speaker 1: then you write down, oh I like that one. And

739
00:39:33,556 --> 00:39:34,996
Speaker 1: so I kind of did that. When I was doing

740
00:39:35,036 --> 00:39:37,436
Speaker 1: Perpetual Motion. I got all of these recordings of classical

741
00:39:37,516 --> 00:39:39,316
Speaker 1: music and I would put pop them on in my

742
00:39:39,356 --> 00:39:42,236
Speaker 1: car CDs and flip through until I heard something. And

743
00:39:42,276 --> 00:39:44,116
Speaker 1: every time I heard something I liked, i'd write it down.

744
00:39:44,116 --> 00:39:46,476
Speaker 1: I had a little pad in my car, and almost

745
00:39:46,516 --> 00:39:50,676
Speaker 1: inevitably I was drawn to these moto perpetuos, long lines,

746
00:39:50,796 --> 00:39:53,276
Speaker 1: long cascading things that went on and on and on,

747
00:39:53,356 --> 00:39:56,196
Speaker 1: and that kept unfolding and unfolding and unfolding, like back

748
00:39:56,316 --> 00:40:00,356
Speaker 1: you know, or Paganini or you know, a showpen things.

749
00:40:00,596 --> 00:40:03,156
Speaker 1: And so that's part of why we named the album

750
00:40:03,236 --> 00:40:05,516
Speaker 1: a Moto perpetual because to me, most of the pieces

751
00:40:05,556 --> 00:40:07,996
Speaker 1: on there are moto perpeturos of one kind or another,

752
00:40:08,436 --> 00:40:11,036
Speaker 1: whether it's you, you know, Children's Corner by Dead buc

753
00:40:11,316 --> 00:40:15,316
Speaker 1: or you know, or boch things, they just keep on unfolding.

754
00:40:15,556 --> 00:40:20,036
Speaker 1: The story's not over and then it stops. I don't

755
00:40:20,076 --> 00:40:22,476
Speaker 1: like life. Yeah, yeah, well I can't get a banjo

756
00:40:22,516 --> 00:40:24,956
Speaker 1: player to stop. Maybe that's maybe it's maybe it's your

757
00:40:24,956 --> 00:40:27,916
Speaker 1: ticket to immortality till the end. They never when they stop,

758
00:40:28,116 --> 00:40:30,516
Speaker 1: when they die, so tell me going back again. You

759
00:40:30,596 --> 00:40:34,636
Speaker 1: played with Tony Rice on the s the Shoulder, which

760
00:40:34,716 --> 00:40:38,476
Speaker 1: is this album People in All Kinds of World Love.

761
00:40:38,516 --> 00:40:40,796
Speaker 1: But it's a great I guess would you call it

762
00:40:40,836 --> 00:40:42,916
Speaker 1: blue grass? He was a well, I think it's pretty.

763
00:40:43,036 --> 00:40:46,756
Speaker 1: It's definitely extended blue grass, you know. And so he

764
00:40:46,836 --> 00:40:48,556
Speaker 1: was a hero to me because he also had that

765
00:40:48,636 --> 00:40:52,036
Speaker 1: incredible rhythm of rhythmic ability on the guitar, and he

766
00:40:52,116 --> 00:40:54,316
Speaker 1: was had an interest in jazz and all these different

767
00:40:54,356 --> 00:40:56,276
Speaker 1: things and he would bring them into his blue grass.

768
00:40:56,316 --> 00:41:00,436
Speaker 1: But he also had a very musical vocal kind of quality.

769
00:41:00,476 --> 00:41:02,436
Speaker 1: He like, he was a great singer, but he chose

770
00:41:02,516 --> 00:41:05,036
Speaker 1: songs that were kind of deep sometimes and had harmony

771
00:41:05,076 --> 00:41:07,356
Speaker 1: to them, you know, which was very unusual for blue grass,

772
00:41:07,356 --> 00:41:10,756
Speaker 1: which tends to be very harmonically. He liked things that

773
00:41:10,796 --> 00:41:14,756
Speaker 1: were more explorative. And so when I got to play

774
00:41:14,756 --> 00:41:16,356
Speaker 1: on that record, it was a dream come true. It

775
00:41:16,396 --> 00:41:18,156
Speaker 1: was like I was finally playing with the A team.

776
00:41:18,396 --> 00:41:22,276
Speaker 1: Sam Bush was playing, Vassar Clements was there, Jerry Douglas

777
00:41:22,316 --> 00:41:24,396
Speaker 1: was there, Tony Rice was there, and we all just

778
00:41:24,436 --> 00:41:26,076
Speaker 1: cut it in a circle and he sang and played

779
00:41:26,116 --> 00:41:29,276
Speaker 1: everything live. We all played live and it was unbelievable

780
00:41:29,316 --> 00:41:31,276
Speaker 1: how good that music felt. I played. Guy played on

781
00:41:31,316 --> 00:41:33,996
Speaker 1: four tracks that day, either three or four, and every

782
00:41:33,996 --> 00:41:35,876
Speaker 1: one of them had this dance like it was so

783
00:41:35,916 --> 00:41:37,756
Speaker 1: easy to play banjo with him because of the way

784
00:41:37,756 --> 00:41:40,196
Speaker 1: he played rhythm. His rhythm guitar playing was like a

785
00:41:40,196 --> 00:41:42,956
Speaker 1: magic carpet ride that you get on and all of

786
00:41:43,036 --> 00:41:44,756
Speaker 1: a sudden you could do things that you couldn't do

787
00:41:44,796 --> 00:41:47,836
Speaker 1: anywhere else. So after that session, I was like, if

788
00:41:47,836 --> 00:41:50,596
Speaker 1: I could do a record with this guy and Sam Bush,

789
00:41:50,596 --> 00:41:53,156
Speaker 1: because he Sam has this way of chopping the rhythm

790
00:41:53,236 --> 00:41:56,516
Speaker 1: on the mantelin and Tony is so free floating with

791
00:41:56,596 --> 00:42:00,396
Speaker 1: his rhythm playing. The combination of those two guys playing together,

792
00:42:00,476 --> 00:42:03,036
Speaker 1: you have all of the freedom and the imagination of

793
00:42:03,036 --> 00:42:05,836
Speaker 1: Tony Rice, but it's it's put into a rhythmic context

794
00:42:05,916 --> 00:42:08,956
Speaker 1: by Sam Bush's chop. So once those guys start playing together,

795
00:42:09,156 --> 00:42:12,396
Speaker 1: it's magic. And feathering the banzo into that is like

796
00:42:12,916 --> 00:42:14,876
Speaker 1: the easiest thing in the world. So when I made

797
00:42:14,916 --> 00:42:17,716
Speaker 1: that first record, we're talking about Drive. That's the band

798
00:42:17,716 --> 00:42:20,476
Speaker 1: that I wanted and was lucky enough to get, and

799
00:42:20,516 --> 00:42:22,676
Speaker 1: I had those two guys playing together, and Jerry Douglas,

800
00:42:22,836 --> 00:42:25,636
Speaker 1: the greatest ogro player and these great fiddle players. You

801
00:42:25,916 --> 00:42:27,556
Speaker 1: described it a little bit, but you know, one of

802
00:42:27,556 --> 00:42:30,276
Speaker 1: my favorite albums of yours is the album you did

803
00:42:30,316 --> 00:42:33,716
Speaker 1: with Check Korea, The Enchantment. Yeah, how did you make

804
00:42:33,756 --> 00:42:36,476
Speaker 1: that work? It's a very unusual sounding album. It's a

805
00:42:36,516 --> 00:42:39,476
Speaker 1: puzzle what happened there, because you know, as you know,

806
00:42:39,876 --> 00:42:44,316
Speaker 1: he's a formative influence. Like even more so than you

807
00:42:44,356 --> 00:42:47,676
Speaker 1: know Scrugs or Tony Trishka or Charlie Parker who weren't

808
00:42:47,796 --> 00:42:50,636
Speaker 1: part of my life. He was a guy that I revered,

809
00:42:50,996 --> 00:42:53,156
Speaker 1: as you know, so good. I would never you know,

810
00:42:53,236 --> 00:42:55,796
Speaker 1: could never imagine playing with him, but you know, an

811
00:42:55,796 --> 00:42:58,316
Speaker 1: inspiration for life. I was five, followed everything he did

812
00:42:58,676 --> 00:43:00,756
Speaker 1: and I always wished I could play like him, you know,

813
00:43:00,876 --> 00:43:03,356
Speaker 1: learn from him and stuff. So at a certain point

814
00:43:03,396 --> 00:43:07,036
Speaker 1: the flectones got going, you know, some decades later, after

815
00:43:07,356 --> 00:43:11,716
Speaker 1: falling in love with his music, and got a Grammy nomination, right,

816
00:43:11,836 --> 00:43:15,276
Speaker 1: and got to go to the Grammys where Chick Korea

817
00:43:15,356 --> 00:43:19,356
Speaker 1: one of the reigning Grammy count kings it was, and

818
00:43:19,556 --> 00:43:21,236
Speaker 1: got to meet him and talk to him and said, oh, yeah,

819
00:43:21,276 --> 00:43:23,836
Speaker 1: I saw you guys. I saw your video, sinister minister,

820
00:43:23,876 --> 00:43:26,196
Speaker 1: I like I like that, you know. So I got

821
00:43:26,236 --> 00:43:27,956
Speaker 1: the nerve to ask him if he would play on

822
00:43:27,956 --> 00:43:30,636
Speaker 1: a track for me, and he did, to my surprise,

823
00:43:30,916 --> 00:43:32,916
Speaker 1: agree and I got to do something with him, and

824
00:43:32,916 --> 00:43:34,996
Speaker 1: I thought, well, okay, now my life has made you know.

825
00:43:35,596 --> 00:43:38,756
Speaker 1: That's I'll never bother you again, was what I thought.

826
00:43:39,316 --> 00:43:41,516
Speaker 1: You know. It was an album called Tales from the

827
00:43:41,556 --> 00:43:44,556
Speaker 1: Acoustic Planet, the first one I made, and Branford Marsalis

828
00:43:44,596 --> 00:43:46,996
Speaker 1: also played on that, and I got them together. They

829
00:43:47,116 --> 00:43:49,556
Speaker 1: never played together on the track. It's a neat thing, yeah,

830
00:43:49,636 --> 00:43:51,396
Speaker 1: And they just sat around him did old jazz in

831
00:43:51,436 --> 00:43:54,396
Speaker 1: the corner till it was time to close the studio down.

832
00:43:54,476 --> 00:43:57,196
Speaker 1: They were having so much fun. So some years later

833
00:43:57,396 --> 00:44:00,516
Speaker 1: I was playing at Newport Jazz Festival with Stanley Clark

834
00:44:00,556 --> 00:44:02,476
Speaker 1: and John Luke Ponni. We had this trio for a

835
00:44:02,516 --> 00:44:05,476
Speaker 1: little while and Ted Curlin came over to me. He's

836
00:44:05,516 --> 00:44:07,876
Speaker 1: the agent that booked all these guys, you know, And

837
00:44:07,916 --> 00:44:10,676
Speaker 1: he came over to me and he said, um, baila, chick,

838
00:44:10,756 --> 00:44:13,876
Speaker 1: Korea is thinking about doing some duet projects next year,

839
00:44:13,956 --> 00:44:15,716
Speaker 1: and you're on the list of people. Would you have

840
00:44:15,756 --> 00:44:19,236
Speaker 1: any interest in something like that? It's like, would you

841
00:44:19,276 --> 00:44:22,196
Speaker 1: have any interest? And I was like, yes, sign me up. Enough.

842
00:44:22,196 --> 00:44:24,596
Speaker 1: So I was the first person who said yes, you know,

843
00:44:24,636 --> 00:44:27,156
Speaker 1: and so he said, okay, well let's do something. So

844
00:44:27,836 --> 00:44:29,996
Speaker 1: we booked this session. I'm going to come out there,

845
00:44:29,996 --> 00:44:31,916
Speaker 1: and he's sending meeting this music which I'm trying to

846
00:44:31,916 --> 00:44:34,596
Speaker 1: decipher from mini files and trying to figure out how

847
00:44:34,636 --> 00:44:36,796
Speaker 1: to play. And we have a week to do it.

848
00:44:36,876 --> 00:44:38,356
Speaker 1: You know, we're going to do it, and I think,

849
00:44:38,836 --> 00:44:41,436
Speaker 1: well five days. I was used to making records with

850
00:44:41,476 --> 00:44:43,036
Speaker 1: the flect Tones, where we had months, you know, we

851
00:44:43,036 --> 00:44:45,076
Speaker 1: could just take our time, and just when we were done,

852
00:44:45,076 --> 00:44:49,076
Speaker 1: we're done. And then I get there and what about rehearsing. Well,

853
00:44:49,116 --> 00:44:50,876
Speaker 1: we'll meet up the night before. So we meet up

854
00:44:50,876 --> 00:44:52,596
Speaker 1: in a hotel room and we play for an hour

855
00:44:52,636 --> 00:44:54,476
Speaker 1: and he says, I think that's good. I'm like, oh

856
00:44:54,516 --> 00:44:56,716
Speaker 1: my god, how are we going to do this? And

857
00:44:56,756 --> 00:44:59,036
Speaker 1: then as he's leaving, he says, oh, by the way,

858
00:44:59,516 --> 00:45:01,596
Speaker 1: I think we can record and mix this record in

859
00:45:01,636 --> 00:45:03,956
Speaker 1: those four or five days. And now it's getting down

860
00:45:03,956 --> 00:45:07,956
Speaker 1: to four, you know, four or five days. I'm like, oh,

861
00:45:08,356 --> 00:45:10,236
Speaker 1: but somehow we did it. You know. We just went

862
00:45:10,236 --> 00:45:13,476
Speaker 1: in and just tune after tune, got the arrangements together,

863
00:45:13,636 --> 00:45:15,956
Speaker 1: just did them and one after another they turned out

864
00:45:15,956 --> 00:45:18,076
Speaker 1: really good, and we did the whole thing we I mean,

865
00:45:18,156 --> 00:45:20,596
Speaker 1: Drive was made in three days, but that was with

866
00:45:20,636 --> 00:45:22,116
Speaker 1: a bunch of guys, like a bunch of music. I

867
00:45:22,196 --> 00:45:24,876
Speaker 1: knew how to do, you know, so I'm always surprised.

868
00:45:24,916 --> 00:45:26,236
Speaker 1: I want to hear it back because I have that

869
00:45:26,316 --> 00:45:29,436
Speaker 1: feeling of fear every time it comes up. I'm gonna

870
00:45:29,436 --> 00:45:32,316
Speaker 1: listen to and be really disappointed. But it's it's the moment,

871
00:45:32,356 --> 00:45:34,076
Speaker 1: you know. That's what happens. When you do something fast,

872
00:45:34,156 --> 00:45:36,996
Speaker 1: you get a different benefit out of it, and if

873
00:45:36,996 --> 00:45:38,996
Speaker 1: you do something slower you can get another benefit out

874
00:45:38,996 --> 00:45:41,076
Speaker 1: of you know, there's different things. He was a guy

875
00:45:41,196 --> 00:45:44,116
Speaker 1: who was always trying new things. Yeah, and you were

876
00:45:44,156 --> 00:45:46,716
Speaker 1: a guy that's always trying new things. I think I've

877
00:45:46,956 --> 00:45:49,356
Speaker 1: seen interviews where you've said I just want to get

878
00:45:49,356 --> 00:45:51,916
Speaker 1: onto the next thing, and my record label's always saying,

879
00:45:51,956 --> 00:45:55,196
Speaker 1: how about a bluegrass album? Where does that drive come from?

880
00:45:55,316 --> 00:45:58,036
Speaker 1: With me? Yes? Well, I have to say one of

881
00:45:58,036 --> 00:46:00,116
Speaker 1: the things that was very inspiring on that Chick session

882
00:46:00,276 --> 00:46:02,356
Speaker 1: is the minute we finished the last song of the

883
00:46:02,436 --> 00:46:04,556
Speaker 1: last track, which was a tune called Mountain. It was

884
00:46:04,596 --> 00:46:06,836
Speaker 1: the last thing we cut. I put the band too

885
00:46:06,916 --> 00:46:08,836
Speaker 1: in the case. Chick went into the other room, pulled

886
00:46:08,836 --> 00:46:12,356
Speaker 1: out the music for his next project and started practicing. Wow,

887
00:46:14,196 --> 00:46:16,756
Speaker 1: that's a little scary, and I went, wow, yeah, I

888
00:46:16,836 --> 00:46:18,876
Speaker 1: want to be like that. You know, this is my

889
00:46:19,156 --> 00:46:20,996
Speaker 1: I guess early thirties, and you're like, I had a

890
00:46:21,036 --> 00:46:23,796
Speaker 1: bottle of wine. I thought, yeah, this was before the wine.

891
00:46:24,116 --> 00:46:27,476
Speaker 1: This is the wine was a few decades later. But no, um.

892
00:46:27,956 --> 00:46:29,636
Speaker 1: I always always thought you were supposed to do that,

893
00:46:29,676 --> 00:46:31,716
Speaker 1: and you know, talking about the Beatles, you know, they

894
00:46:31,716 --> 00:46:33,956
Speaker 1: just kept changing every record, was like almost like a

895
00:46:33,996 --> 00:46:35,836
Speaker 1: new band. I thought, that's what you're supposed to do.

896
00:46:36,036 --> 00:46:38,236
Speaker 1: You're not supposed to like create something and keep doing it.

897
00:46:38,276 --> 00:46:41,956
Speaker 1: Like that's what Bill Monroe did. He created bluegrass, you know,

898
00:46:42,076 --> 00:46:44,996
Speaker 1: and on the seventh day he rested. But then he

899
00:46:45,156 --> 00:46:47,036
Speaker 1: kept playing it the same way. He would always trying

900
00:46:47,076 --> 00:46:48,996
Speaker 1: to find guys who would play it like the original

901
00:46:49,036 --> 00:46:52,436
Speaker 1: band more or less, although there was some variation, of course,

902
00:46:52,476 --> 00:46:54,556
Speaker 1: but his idea was I've created it, and now we

903
00:46:54,556 --> 00:46:57,796
Speaker 1: will do it. And then there's other people, other artists

904
00:46:57,836 --> 00:47:00,316
Speaker 1: that continue to change their whole lives, you know. And

905
00:47:00,716 --> 00:47:03,516
Speaker 1: I like that idea because that's what the Coolcats were doing.

906
00:47:03,556 --> 00:47:06,436
Speaker 1: That's what Chick Korea was doing, That's what the Beatles

907
00:47:06,476 --> 00:47:09,076
Speaker 1: were doing, That's what led Zeppelin was doing. The people

908
00:47:09,236 --> 00:47:12,556
Speaker 1: that we're around that I saw were growing and changing

909
00:47:12,916 --> 00:47:17,756
Speaker 1: from the Carnegie Hills of Manhattan. Thank you. So that

910
00:47:17,796 --> 00:47:19,956
Speaker 1: was wonderful, great talking to you. It was fun, great,

911
00:47:19,996 --> 00:47:25,436
Speaker 1: it was great talk, just great. Thanks to Baila Fleck

912
00:47:25,516 --> 00:47:28,676
Speaker 1: for explaining his lifelong love for the banjo and sharing

913
00:47:28,716 --> 00:47:32,236
Speaker 1: a song off his new album My Bluegrasshart. Do you

914
00:47:32,276 --> 00:47:34,876
Speaker 1: hear the album along with our favorite Beila Flex songs.

915
00:47:35,076 --> 00:47:38,356
Speaker 1: Check out the playlist at broken Record podcast dot com.

916
00:47:38,516 --> 00:47:41,196
Speaker 1: Be sure to subscribe to our YouTube channel at YouTube

917
00:47:41,196 --> 00:47:44,436
Speaker 1: dot com slash broken Record Podcast, where you can find

918
00:47:44,516 --> 00:47:47,196
Speaker 1: all of our new episodes. You can follow us on

919
00:47:47,236 --> 00:47:50,276
Speaker 1: Twitter at broken Record. Broken Record is produced with help

920
00:47:50,316 --> 00:47:53,996
Speaker 1: from Lea Rose, Jason Gambrel, Gent Taladay, Eric Sandler, and

921
00:47:54,076 --> 00:47:58,116
Speaker 1: Jennifer Sanchez, with engineering help from Nick Chafee. Our executive

922
00:47:58,156 --> 00:48:01,876
Speaker 1: producer is Mia Lobell. Broken Record is a production of

923
00:48:01,956 --> 00:48:05,076
Speaker 1: Pushkin Industries. If you like this show and others from Pushkin,

924
00:48:05,196 --> 00:48:09,116
Speaker 1: consider subscribing to Pushkin Plus. Pushkin Plus is a podcast

925
00:48:09,196 --> 00:48:13,076
Speaker 1: subscription that offers bonus content an uninterrupted, ad free listening

926
00:48:13,156 --> 00:48:15,916
Speaker 1: for four ninety nine on a month. Look for Pushkin

927
00:48:15,996 --> 00:48:19,596
Speaker 1: Plus on Apple Podcasts, subscriptions, and if you like the show,

928
00:48:19,716 --> 00:48:22,076
Speaker 1: please remember to share, rate, and review us on your

929
00:48:22,076 --> 00:48:25,836
Speaker 1: podcast app. For the music by Kenny Beats, I'm justin Richmond,