Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised.
Speaker 2: I've never really seen crime scene photo. This is suddenly
Speaker 2: real to me now. The brutality of this murder made
Speaker 2: me feel like that actually should be the mission of
Speaker 2: yours now in doing the book as so, can you
Speaker 2: make him a human being and not like this cliche.
Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor
Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the co host of the
Speaker 1: podcast Buried Bones on Exactly Right, and throughout my career,
Speaker 1: research for my many audio and book projects has taken
Speaker 1: me around the world. On Wicked Words, I sit down
Speaker 1: with the people I've met along the way, amazing writers, journalists, filmmakers,
Speaker 1: and podcasters who have in investigated, and reported on notorious
Speaker 1: true crime cases. This is about the choices writers make,
Speaker 1: both good and bad, and it's a deep dive into
Speaker 1: the unpublished details behind their stories. Self made millionaire Lance
Speaker 1: Herndon was one of Atlanta's elite in nineteen ninety six
Speaker 1: when he was murdered in his home. Police had a
Speaker 1: host of suspects, and they soon realized how complicated Lance's
Speaker 1: life really was. Author Ron Stoggil unravels the story in
Speaker 1: his book Redbone, Money, Malice, and Murder in Atlanta. This
Speaker 1: is a very big question. But from the end of
Speaker 1: the Civil War until when this story takes place, which
Speaker 1: is nineteen ninety six, what are the changes that happen
Speaker 1: in Atlanta after the Civil War? Is Atlanta primarily a
Speaker 1: city with white people or is their diversity, you know,
Speaker 1: versus where it is today.
Speaker 2: So Atlanta as always, you know it Georgia, you know,
Speaker 2: was a big slave state and that population has remained.
Speaker 2: The way it was explained to me back then was
Speaker 2: that that that like that they had figured out blacks
Speaker 2: and whites had figured out a way to kind of
Speaker 2: live next to one another. Like they took a lot
Speaker 2: of pride during, for instance, the Civil they haven't had
Speaker 2: many major major riots there since, you know, way way back,
Speaker 2: and they take pride in that that the business community
Speaker 2: and the civil rights community had been in kind of
Speaker 2: a lockstep and avoided costly mistakes to growing that city.
Speaker 3: And so my impression is.
Speaker 2: That there was a thriving black middle class during that
Speaker 2: time all the way even through you know, from emancipation
Speaker 2: through Jim Crow, you know, but there was a lot
Speaker 2: of clergy, a lot of educators. You amassed that power structure,
Speaker 2: and it manifested in a first black mayor, which would
Speaker 2: have been Maynor Jackson, you know, and it was upun
Speaker 2: you know, during his watch that now you see this
Speaker 2: real thriving black community because he was able to use
Speaker 2: his perch, you know, in government to steer dollars towards
Speaker 2: black citizens and at the airport, you know, and the
Speaker 2: construction of it is kind of symbolic of that.
Speaker 1: Tell me a little bit about Lance. You've told me
Speaker 1: a little bit about what you had called the nuvoreche
Speaker 1: kind of these people who who have very affluent jobs
Speaker 1: and are now gaining a lot of power in the community.
Speaker 1: Tell me how Lance fits into all of this. Tell
Speaker 1: me more about him.
Speaker 2: I mean, I thought that Lance was a creature of
Speaker 2: that time.
Speaker 3: You know, he was born in New York.
Speaker 2: He had at this sort of computer tech background. So
Speaker 2: he was moving into Atlanta as Atlanta was starting to flourish,
Speaker 2: and so he was able to get government contracts and
Speaker 2: wheel and deal in a city that is populated by
Speaker 2: black movers and shakers. But he did it with another
Speaker 2: kind of you know, East Coast flair, and that I
Speaker 2: would say intersected with the kind of Hollywood, black Hollywood
Speaker 2: that Atlanta has become today, you know, with the Tyler
Speaker 2: Perry studios and the music presence.
Speaker 3: It is kind of the Black Mecca.
Speaker 2: Was He kind of positioned himself to be a prince
Speaker 2: of that, you know. In the book, I kind of
Speaker 2: call him like a Gatsby figure. He threw great parties,
Speaker 2: he knew everyone. That's the public part of Lance.
Speaker 1: So the assumption I have, and tell me if I'm wrong,
Speaker 1: is he is intelligent, charming, good looking, popular with women.
Speaker 1: Is any of that inaccurate about Lance?
Speaker 3: No, that's probably all an understatement to be.
Speaker 1: A Gatsby figure in Atlanta, I think those are all
Speaker 1: probably requirements. What else is there about him, though, that
Speaker 1: you found to be intriguing or unique? That has nothing
Speaker 1: to do with the crime, but just sort of what
Speaker 1: is it about him that you think it was intriguing
Speaker 1: to other people too?
Speaker 3: He was known as a very generous guy.
Speaker 2: She was very very well liked by a lot of
Speaker 2: people because he listened. You know, this is what I
Speaker 2: You know, maybe as a reporter, I'm fascinated. I was
Speaker 2: fascinated by that, But you know, he was the kind
Speaker 2: of person that if he met you that he would
Speaker 2: sort of find out your daughter or son's interest and
Speaker 2: you know, and drop a gift by there, you know
Speaker 2: what I mean that, Yeah, there's some tickets to a
Speaker 2: theater or a game or that kind of very thoughtful person,
Speaker 2: you know. And and and you could say he was
Speaker 2: opportunistic and machiavellian, you know, but very well liked the
Speaker 2: man about town, you know. And I think in a
Speaker 2: city of strivers and climbers, there was a lot of
Speaker 2: currency in that.
Speaker 1: You said he came from New York. Was he close
Speaker 1: to his family? Were they still in New York or
Speaker 1: did anybody fall on them down to Atlanta?
Speaker 2: Well, his mom moved there with him to Atlanta, you know,
Speaker 2: and his dad and mom had.
Speaker 3: Split years ago.
Speaker 2: So he was raised by a single mother, being the
Speaker 2: son of a single mother who was very strict and
Speaker 2: she worked like a lot of jobs, and she would
Speaker 2: leave all of these posted notes around the apartment that
Speaker 2: would kind of guide him through his day because he
Speaker 2: was a latchkey kid, and that fundamentally kind of became
Speaker 2: his work ethic and his style of management because he
Speaker 2: did to talk to his employees as much as leave tapes,
Speaker 2: you know, the night before, so that they would come
Speaker 2: in and have their marching orders.
Speaker 3: He just felt like that.
Speaker 2: Was if I'm talking to you during the day, then
Speaker 2: I'm wasting time and money.
Speaker 1: His mother must have just been over the moon when
Speaker 1: he became so successful and successful enough I'm assuming to
Speaker 1: support her and bring her down to Atlanta. I mean,
Speaker 1: that's a lot about their relationship.
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I mean she lived down the street, you know,
Speaker 2: and she was very much the matriarch, you know, she
Speaker 2: worried about him, you know. But my impression is that
Speaker 2: they were very very close and saw one another daily.
Speaker 1: Had he ever been he's forty one when he dies,
Speaker 1: had he ever been married or had kids or what
Speaker 1: was his general before we get into some of the
Speaker 1: heavier stuff here, what was his general approach to relationships
Speaker 1: from the time that he was, you know, dating age
Speaker 1: up until he ends up dying.
Speaker 2: He couldn't keep a marriage, you know, he'd been married
Speaker 2: a couple of times. I think infidelity was the issue,
Speaker 2: but he had he didn't have kids prior he had
Speaker 2: kids with this this third wife, Jeanine Price, a woman
Speaker 2: from Kansas City, and he'd met her. It's kind of
Speaker 2: a cool story really, Like, you know, he traveled a lot.
Speaker 2: He had gone to Brazil and there's that statue, there
Speaker 2: is the Christ, you know, and he apparently was just
Speaker 2: there taking pictures and just being a tourist. She also
Speaker 2: was there because she was a flight attendant, like a
Speaker 2: corporate flight attendant though, and so yeah, they locked eyes
Speaker 2: at the bott at the foot of this you know, statue,
Speaker 2: and it like they were the only African American people
Speaker 2: in the crowd.
Speaker 3: They spoke the same language.
Speaker 1: Divine intervention then, right.
Speaker 3: Yeah, she was just like, this must be the man
Speaker 3: for me.
Speaker 1: Well, I think we need to get to the crime
Speaker 1: that happens and how it all becomes discovered. Let's just
Speaker 1: talk about what led to his depth. Where does it
Speaker 1: make sense for you to start, you know, toward that event.
Speaker 2: Well, Kate, you're just you know, you're brilliant because your
Speaker 2: timing couldn't be better. It's the you know, we just
Speaker 2: finished up the Olympics in Paris, you know, and so
Speaker 2: Lance was killed. As you can imagine, they found his
Speaker 2: body on that like they did the closing ceremonies on Sunday, right,
Speaker 2: and they found him on Monday, morning, very very early,
Speaker 2: right during the Atlanta Olympics, you know, and so this
Speaker 2: is a time in which a city puts itself on display.
Speaker 3: He had enjoyed a lot.
Speaker 2: Of those festivities, you know, as you can imagine, he
Speaker 2: had tickets to everything, and so he spent a lot
Speaker 2: of time. And then they found him one morning on
Speaker 2: that Monday morning, bludgeoned to death in his mansion. They
Speaker 2: found him in bed. You know, his skull was cracked open,
Speaker 2: and he was nude, and there was blood spatter.
Speaker 4: On the wall behind him and on the headboard, and
Speaker 4: could you could kind of see that these descending blows
Speaker 4: they were about I don't know, twelve or something like that.
Speaker 2: Wow, it was clear that it was like some kind
Speaker 2: of crime of passion. At least that's what that, you know, automatically,
Speaker 2: because they were just like, wow, you know, this this
Speaker 2: whatever object, this blunt force object, just descending down and
Speaker 2: you could see the spatter on the walls. There were
Speaker 2: some carpet and prints, shoe and prints.
Speaker 1: So who was the last person and to see him alive,
Speaker 1: which I assume would have been closing ceremonies the night before,
Speaker 1: on Sunday night.
Speaker 3: It would have been one of his office workers.
Speaker 2: He had an event coming up that he was sponsoring,
Speaker 2: and so one of his employees and he had had
Speaker 2: to had an affair with her years prior, all off
Speaker 2: and on one right exactly. That became kind of a
Speaker 2: big thing because it was such a forensics driven case
Speaker 2: and he was such a womanizer, right that when you
Speaker 2: look like all of this DNA in his room and stuff,
Speaker 2: how do you connect it to anyone?
Speaker 3: Really?
Speaker 1: You know, he has a big inner circle, right, you
Speaker 1: know when they're when the police are looking, they're looking
Speaker 1: tight first, and he's exposed to a lot besides the
Speaker 1: people he's exposed to through business. Then he's got all
Speaker 1: of these women around him. And then he goes to nightclubs,
Speaker 1: so there are people who know him who he's not
Speaker 1: even sleeping with, and so that's a big that's a
Speaker 1: big inner circle to deal with.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 1: So he has an employee who he's had an often
Speaker 1: on again affair with, but he goes home by himself.
Speaker 1: It sounds like, is that right that night, that Sunday night.
Speaker 2: He does, except then he calls one of this woman
Speaker 2: that he's had been having an affair with, Okay, and
Speaker 2: she does come come by I will tell you he
Speaker 2: was such a cliche in a way because he was
Speaker 2: a black man who really only liked these fair skinned women,
Speaker 2: you know, and so entitling the book he loved black
Speaker 2: women like with European features, and so like there's this
Speaker 2: slang around that down South. It's like a colloquialism, and
Speaker 2: they call these kinds of women redbones, like fair skinned
Speaker 2: black women, and so that, yes, a Southern slang, and
Speaker 2: so that is the title of the book.
Speaker 3: That's it grows from that because that's all he liked.
Speaker 1: Wow, okay, and it's.
Speaker 2: Kind of offensive, Like nobody really wants wants to be
Speaker 2: called a redbone, by the way.
Speaker 1: So let's just think of this as an investigator's point
Speaker 1: of view. Who do the police get a phone call
Speaker 1: from Monday morning upon the discovery of this body? What
Speaker 1: alerts them to begin with?
Speaker 3: So, as I mentioned, you know, like so he had
Speaker 3: his office at his home.
Speaker 2: You know, it's a pretty big home in his but
Speaker 2: they were blocked off from working upstairs. But the whole
Speaker 2: downstairs kind of basement suite was like he had a
Speaker 2: few employees in there.
Speaker 3: Like four employees, you know.
Speaker 2: So that morning, his habit, his ritual was that, you know,
Speaker 2: as an employee, you would arrive to tape instructions and
Speaker 2: those tapes were not there that morning, and that automatically
Speaker 2: set off some alarms. So of course, the first phone
Speaker 2: call they make is to mom, and Mom lives down
Speaker 2: the street. So Mom comes over there like, hey, I
Speaker 2: don't know, maybe is sleeping really late or something.
Speaker 3: I don't know.
Speaker 2: He's been doing all this Olympic stuff, hanging out every night.
Speaker 2: And so she goes upstairs and then there's this blood
Speaker 2: curdling scream and she's like, my baby, my baby. She
Speaker 2: calls nine one one and they try to kind of
Speaker 2: talk her down a little bit, and that's how they
Speaker 2: were alerted.
Speaker 1: And now I was thinking of suspects. I was thinking, Okay,
Speaker 1: if this is an employee, you know it was either
Speaker 1: a crime of passion or not an employee, because you
Speaker 1: would have known, well, if you're going to murder your boss,
Speaker 1: do it like Friday night, because this won't be discovered
Speaker 1: for a couple of days. But that's just me thinking
Speaker 1: about it. Okay. So Mom calls the police, and the
Speaker 1: police show up, and I'm assuming they are shocked because
Speaker 1: this is a beautiful house and a wonderful neighborhood, an
Speaker 1: effluent man who has a business.
Speaker 2: They could see he was a bachelor though, because by
Speaker 2: then his lovely wife had moved out Jane so had
Speaker 2: taken a lot of the furniture, and he was just
Speaker 2: kind of there. Let's just say that it was minimalism
Speaker 2: by then.
Speaker 1: You know, I've gotten used to asking this question on
Speaker 1: this show. Do we have competent police on this case
Speaker 1: or not?
Speaker 2: I mean, I think that's a good question, you know,
Speaker 2: and even these days, I think that question becomes more
Speaker 2: and more complex. But the impression that I get from
Speaker 2: my reporting is that they don't. These kind of cases
Speaker 2: didn't happen that often in Roswell.
Speaker 1: This is Roswell Police who are responding, not Atlanta.
Speaker 3: Yeah, this is Roswell police.
Speaker 2: So they may have been a little over there, like
Speaker 2: this was a little over their head maybe, but you know,
Speaker 2: I mean committed for sure. Detective Nostalgio, we spent time together.
Speaker 2: That was the main guy handling it. I think that
Speaker 2: like people question maybe how he went about things, but
Speaker 2: I thought he was fairly.
Speaker 1: But you didn't get the impression that race was going
Speaker 1: to play a role in this investigation, like it doesn't
Speaker 1: so many other investigations.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I think that there was a novelty factor.
Speaker 2: They knew it was going to be this because this
Speaker 2: guy was all attached all the way up to the
Speaker 2: district attorney Paul Howard.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And you know Fannie willis the woman that ended up
Speaker 2: prosecuting Donald Trump. Yes, she succeeded maybe Paul Howard, like
Speaker 2: the guy, yeah something.
Speaker 3: You know that's the same office. Yeah, that's where he
Speaker 3: wound up.
Speaker 1: I did not know Lance was politically connected in that way.
Speaker 1: I guess I assumed it was just business. So did
Speaker 1: he have friends in politics? Also?
Speaker 3: Very much so?
Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, I mean, you know, he had a had
Speaker 2: he kind of the impression I got was that he
Speaker 2: had everybody on kind of speed dials.
Speaker 1: You know, how long had he been here before this happened?
Speaker 1: How many years?
Speaker 3: I want to say, a couple of decades?
Speaker 1: Is sha oh? Okay, okay, he is in trench than
Speaker 1: in this community. Okay. So the police show up and
Speaker 1: then you have Detective Anastasio. Is that how you say
Speaker 1: his name?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 1: Yeah, and he reports to the scene and they find
Speaker 1: what I had read was he it seemed like he
Speaker 1: had been smacked in the back of the head and stunned,
Speaker 1: and then everything else seemed to be like really serious
Speaker 1: facial injuries. And as you were saying, just you know,
Speaker 1: more than a dozen blows to the front of his face,
Speaker 1: did he have defensive wounds as far as you know,
Speaker 1: or was this.
Speaker 2: No, that's what they figured that he was ambushed, that
Speaker 2: he must have been like that he was awakened, and
Speaker 2: then it just came crashing those blows came crashing down
Speaker 2: before he could even react. What they also found was
Speaker 2: he was covered up when that you know, his face.
Speaker 2: I think they took like a sheet and covered them up,
Speaker 2: as you know, as they moved about the room, and like,
Speaker 2: I think they cleaned themselves up and I had to
Speaker 2: cover up a few things, and you know, but that
Speaker 2: sense from investigators was like they couldn't stand the kind
Speaker 2: of look at their work.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's not covering up your crime. I mean, they
Speaker 1: know he's going to be discovered. So yeah, that's that's interesting. Okay,
Speaker 1: let me ask you a series of questions. Anything taken,
Speaker 1: I mean, I know Janine took it sounds like everything,
Speaker 1: but I mean it was anything of value taken?
Speaker 3: No, I don't think anything was taken.
Speaker 2: I think what was clear though he had bedside one
Speaker 2: of his women, you know, photograph of her in like
Speaker 2: a little you know.
Speaker 3: Nightgown, and it was it was face down.
Speaker 2: That picture was face down, So that was another thing
Speaker 2: like why, you know, was it jealousy?
Speaker 3: Like why is this photo face down?
Speaker 2: And actually just to give you a sense of the
Speaker 2: time too, and kind of maybe a slight creep factor,
Speaker 2: you might it was in a waterbed. Oh no, right,
Speaker 2: which meant like that you couldn't really kept his body
Speaker 2: consistent like that rigor mortis didn't set in, so they
Speaker 2: couldn't come up with that time of death.
Speaker 1: And the employee, the woman who he had been sleeping with,
Speaker 1: off and on, did she give a time when she
Speaker 1: if she was the last person besides the killer who
Speaker 1: saw him and she wasn't the killer. Did she say
Speaker 1: it was like early evening when she left.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think she said she went over there and
Speaker 2: she borrowed a computer or something. It really like the
Speaker 2: way it played out, it was all circumstantial, by the way.
Speaker 1: So let me ask you, because I don't know this
Speaker 1: time period security systems in ninety six and cameras, was
Speaker 1: that happening.
Speaker 3: No, No, they weren't.
Speaker 2: I mean not at Roswell, not at the lands Herndon home.
Speaker 2: They didn't pull any of that out. Now it's a
Speaker 2: good question. I mean, we wouldn't. I wouldn't have had
Speaker 2: to write a book.
Speaker 1: No weapons, he didn't have a gun or anything for protection.
Speaker 2: No, I mean, and they never discovered like what the
Speaker 2: weapon was. So I'm going to pause here and just say,
Speaker 2: I'm working at Time magazine in New York City and
Speaker 2: I hear about this story, and I hear about it
Speaker 2: from my dad, who was a court TV watcher, you know,
Speaker 2: and at that time, the women were testifying in Lance
Speaker 2: Herndon's behalf, and my dad was shocked because this was
Speaker 2: years later and a lot of the women had married
Speaker 2: and moved on, but they had come back.
Speaker 3: And so that was like, well, who was liked so much?
Speaker 3: Who is this guy?
Speaker 2: So I just parachute in and I wanted to see
Speaker 2: whether there was a book in this, a story in
Speaker 2: this then, you know, and I met up in this
Speaker 2: early investor first investigation, called the assistant DA Clinton.
Speaker 3: Rucker, who's a lawyer, and he had gotten that case.
Speaker 3: You know. I talked him into meeting with me.
Speaker 2: He had moved on, and I mean I had been
Speaker 2: there two or three days looking through documents, and he
Speaker 2: was not meeting with me. And then finally he called
Speaker 2: me and said, hey, you know, of course you know
Speaker 2: meet me.
Speaker 3: And we met in his office.
Speaker 2: He said this, he said, huh, have you ever seen
Speaker 2: the crime scene photos? And I said no, and he
Speaker 2: said hold on, and I'd never really seen crime scene
Speaker 2: photos and he just kind of were these polaroids and
Speaker 2: he just dropped them on the desk in front of me.
Speaker 3: I felt nothing but shame at the moment.
Speaker 2: Like it was like I felt like, Okay, this is
Speaker 2: suddenly real to me now, like this is more than
Speaker 2: just some dramatic or it titillating murder thing like this
Speaker 2: he didn't even have, Like the way he died, the way,
Speaker 2: like the brutality of this murder made me feel like
Speaker 2: that actually should be the mission of yours now in
Speaker 2: doing the book, is so can you make him a
Speaker 2: human being and not like this cliche and tell the
Speaker 2: story about how this story really in the end is
Speaker 2: how a person, a black man in the South, who's
Speaker 2: a transplant, who has the world at his fingertips, seemingly
Speaker 2: how he would die like just some street dude on
Speaker 2: the corner like that, Like how do how do those worlds?
Speaker 3: Those emotions? You know?
Speaker 2: And if I could answer those questions like and show it,
Speaker 2: then I would have a book that I could be
Speaker 2: proud of.
Speaker 1: Wow. I mean I have often said True crime is
Speaker 1: an excellent vehicle for telling these kinds of stories, not
Speaker 1: for the violence entertainment part of it, but just like
Speaker 1: what do we learn about ourselves, about our societies, about
Speaker 1: whatever it is? You know that we really can sort
Speaker 1: of open up a portal to be able to look
Speaker 1: into a world, whatever that world is that we are
Speaker 1: not familiar with. That's why I love True crime. Let's
Speaker 1: get back to Lance's case. So Crime of Passion. So
Speaker 1: what is the first thing now that detective Anastasio decides
Speaker 1: to do. Of course, interview people, starting with the employees
Speaker 1: and his mom and trying to figure out who in
Speaker 1: his life might have been targeting him.
Speaker 2: Right, So, and I can't remember what the insurance amount was,
Speaker 2: but of course the ex wife would have been the
Speaker 2: first suspect. So they talked to her, Janine Herndon, and
Speaker 2: they had a kid together. She was dating again, so
Speaker 2: that proved that one because she was at her alibi.
Speaker 3: Was I think she was with her new boyfriend.
Speaker 2: And then they went to the main woman, Kathy Collins,
Speaker 2: and that was the woman who was kind of his
Speaker 2: the arm candy and is that he would go out
Speaker 2: on the town with, and whose whose photograph was next
Speaker 2: to his bedside, and she had clothing and you know,
Speaker 2: and and she had things at his house, okay. And
Speaker 2: then they had Talana Mitchell, that long time employee.
Speaker 3: And confidant and lover.
Speaker 2: And then is the most recent woman that he was dating,
Speaker 2: and that would have been Dion ba.
Speaker 1: Well, let me ask you about each of these women. Kathy,
Speaker 1: the woman in the photograph who he was parading around town,
Speaker 1: did she want more from him that he was willing
Speaker 1: to give? What did they establish about their relationship?
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, she kind of became a caricature
Speaker 2: early on because of how she reacted, you know. And
Speaker 2: she reacted like, Okay, while my sugar daddy has just
Speaker 2: you know, it's gone, but I've got things in the house.
Speaker 3: How can I get in there?
Speaker 2: She had some bottles of wine, you know, but now
Speaker 2: it's a crime scene. So she's very frustrated. So then,
Speaker 2: you know, and that frustrated the police, the investigators that
Speaker 2: she would even want to push her way through around that.
Speaker 2: It was always kind of about Kathy, right, And then
Speaker 2: you had Dion, his most recent lover, you know, and
Speaker 2: you couldn't really get a sense she was hysterical, but
Speaker 2: they almost felt like crocodile tears on some level, right,
Speaker 2: So that made him curious. Talana though, had seen him
Speaker 2: the night before, right, and was really nervous, and her
Speaker 2: ex boyfriend had been in trouble, and she kind of
Speaker 2: had a little bit of street in her anyway, So
Speaker 2: she showed up with a lawyer, you know, because she
Speaker 2: was terrified.
Speaker 1: Innocent people call attorneys, they do, that's the smart thing
Speaker 1: to do, calling it. I was so my students at
Speaker 1: call an attorney, yeah.
Speaker 2: So you know, and that said that they wondered why
Speaker 2: she needed an attorney. So these were these were the
Speaker 2: various women.
Speaker 1: What was Tilana's reaction? Since it sounds like if he
Speaker 1: is emotionally invested in anyone, it's probably her because they've
Speaker 1: been together off and on for years, right, and they
Speaker 1: work together. And you said that she was as confident,
Speaker 1: so she should be the one who has I would
Speaker 1: think the most authentic reaction to this man's murder.
Speaker 3: No, I mean, Kate, that's a really good point.
Speaker 2: You know, Like when I was doing my research, it
Speaker 2: wasn't easy to get to people Black. True crime wasn't
Speaker 2: a thing. It's still not a thing. It's still you know.
Speaker 2: And so here I am poking around and people are like.
Speaker 3: Why are you?
Speaker 2: Like why what is the point? And that you're going
Speaker 2: to make them look even worse. Then you know, the
Speaker 2: trial already made him look and you're gonna like the
Speaker 2: family now has got to relive this, you know, and
Speaker 2: you know all of that. But you know it was
Speaker 2: gonna happen because I was down there and I was
Speaker 2: going to try to do a dignity though. Yeah, you know,
Speaker 2: I mean, And so I ended up getting them to
Speaker 2: talk sparingly, different people at different times over a course
Speaker 2: of about three years. Solana was the one that I
Speaker 2: knew I needed to get to. I never stopped trying,
Speaker 2: and she left. She'd left Atlanta, Georgia. She was married
Speaker 2: and living in Colorado. She was a soccer mom by
Speaker 2: then in Denver, and so I went out there, though
Speaker 2: you know, I flew, I got hold of her.
Speaker 3: At one point she just agreed I met me.
Speaker 2: Maybe there was a gesture of offering to just come out.
Speaker 3: It meant that much. I checked into a hotel, you know,
Speaker 3: and we.
Speaker 2: Spent like two days, and I learned a lot about Lance,
Speaker 2: you know, and he became more empathetic. And she, the
Speaker 2: way she described him, was all of that was kind
Speaker 2: of an act that actually he was a show off,
Speaker 2: but you know, it was all power to him. Like
Speaker 2: he wasn't great. He loved to be in bed, but
Speaker 2: you know, with women, but he wasn't great in bed
Speaker 2: and with you know what I mean. And you know,
Speaker 2: but he was a frightened little guy, insecure. But she
Speaker 2: had come from a small town in North Carolina and
Speaker 2: migrated to Atlanta, and she was, you know, attractive and
Speaker 2: younger and a little naive and he was very worldly,
Speaker 2: and so he kind of took her under his wing,
Speaker 2: and she tolerated a lot of like just say, his
Speaker 2: peculiar kinds of ways he liked to live, you know,
Speaker 2: and and and she participated though by the way, you know,
Speaker 2: that's she did, you know, and I got it, you know,
Speaker 2: there's no other way to put it.
Speaker 3: But you know, she was carousing too with him.
Speaker 1: You have the challenge that I often have to, which
Speaker 1: is you have an unsympathetic in some ways, an unsympathetic victim.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, like that's what it is, you know,
Speaker 2: that's what separates nonfiction from fiction. You know, Like I
Speaker 2: would have done this all over again, but there's a
Speaker 2: story need, like when you're doing fiction and you have
Speaker 2: a choice, like you're going to make a hero a hero,
Speaker 2: you know, and this is a book really without many
Speaker 2: heroes in it.
Speaker 3: Everyone is so flawed.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Even Clint Rucker.
Speaker 2: Who you know is a fantastic prosecutor, he's not without
Speaker 2: flaws in this book. And I don't even know how
Speaker 2: he pulled it off, to be honest.
Speaker 1: Well, let's get to why all of this happened. So
Speaker 1: you've got, you know, Detective Anastasio, who has a list
Speaker 1: of women that he has to deal with, and it
Speaker 1: sounds like he crossed Janine off the list. Is that right?
Speaker 1: She had an alibi? Is that what she told me?
Speaker 3: Correct?
Speaker 1: And Kathy had an alibi?
Speaker 2: Oh yeah she did too. She was actually flying back
Speaker 2: in she wasn't even in town. And it's funny she
Speaker 2: actually was dating someone by then, too, Like I think
Speaker 2: she was cheating on them. I thought it was starting
Speaker 2: to be over right. This is the thing of I mean,
Speaker 2: I'm saying, like there's an overall story, a message around
Speaker 2: kind of this new class and the compass that you
Speaker 2: may have expected that would have grown out of the
Speaker 2: civil rights movement and that anchor right there. But how
Speaker 2: a drift you know, you were, and how it was
Speaker 2: predicted likes by like these black thinkers like W. E. B.
Speaker 3: Du Bois, who had like you know, who had his.
Speaker 2: Thoughts about materialism and about kind of mimicking white values
Speaker 2: in society, you know, and what that was going to do.
Speaker 2: And so it really to me Atlanta was at that
Speaker 2: point in time a reflection of that.
Speaker 1: Well, let's talk about this investigation. There are forensic clues
Speaker 1: and there are suspects. How do we end up with
Speaker 1: the suspect? Who we end up with? What does Detective
Speaker 1: Anastasio end up doing to be able to make an arrest?
Speaker 1: Because there was an arrest, thank goodness.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it took him so long and I can't
Speaker 2: even it took him a very very long time to
Speaker 2: make an arrest. They had a suspect in Dion Ball,
Speaker 2: so Lance was coming up on this forty first birthday
Speaker 2: party and that was going to be a big big
Speaker 2: deal because it's Lance, you know, I mean it's fortieth
Speaker 2: birthday party. I think he was in Cape Town and
Speaker 2: he had rented like this stretch Mercedes and they paraded
Speaker 2: around town with you know.
Speaker 3: But that's the kind of dude he was like.
Speaker 2: He also ingratiated himself with a group of like business people,
Speaker 2: like by taking his him out on a lunch on
Speaker 2: a submarine.
Speaker 3: Wow.
Speaker 2: I talked to one of the guys and he said, look,
Speaker 2: I got this invitation. The jet was like waiting and
Speaker 2: they were gonna just we were going down to Florida,
Speaker 2: you know, and we went right down there and we
Speaker 2: just got on this submarine you know, and we like
Speaker 2: right and he said, like I come from a military family.
Speaker 3: Oh, and he said, you know it was a white guy.
Speaker 3: He was like, like, I like that gift. He said.
Speaker 2: I was like he was said it was amazing. He said,
Speaker 2: I will love Lance Herndon forever.
Speaker 1: That's awesome. Yeah, I mean I and I think we
Speaker 1: go back to the flawed character. Everybody's flawed some more
Speaker 1: than others. You finding those sorts of stories really I
Speaker 1: think will drive the book in that you want to
Speaker 1: get to the end to find the justice. So with
Speaker 1: the investigation, we really start to focus on Dion, who is,
Speaker 1: as you described her, his latest girlfriend. Tell me what
Speaker 1: you know about Dion since she becomes the main focal
Speaker 1: point at this point. What do we know about her?
Speaker 2: A native of Kingston, Jamaica, married to a guy who
Speaker 2: was from kind of a very affluent family.
Speaker 3: Then they got married and moved to Atlanta and they
Speaker 3: had a daughter. He was struggling, though.
Speaker 2: I got the sense, you know that he was a
Speaker 2: job as like a pilot. He would go back and
Speaker 2: forth between the island and Florida.
Speaker 3: They were living in Miami.
Speaker 2: And then somehow she ended up coming to school and
Speaker 2: moving to Atlanta, and he came with her for a minute,
Speaker 2: but mostly it was a commuting relationship.
Speaker 1: Okay.
Speaker 2: She ended up working at Marta in the public transportation
Speaker 2: in what is it Metro Atlanta, a rail transit authority
Speaker 2: or something. Her boss was a friend of Lance Herndon's,
Speaker 2: So when Lance sent his invites for this birthday party,
Speaker 2: she intercepted it because she was his admin and knew
Speaker 2: that Lance was hot stuff and decided she was just
Speaker 2: going to piggyback that invitation and go to Lance's forty
Speaker 2: first birthday party and that's where he met her and
Speaker 2: he was smitten.
Speaker 1: How long ago was that from his death? What was
Speaker 1: the time period?
Speaker 3: I would say, like four or five months.
Speaker 1: Not smitten enough to dump Kathy Collins obviously, I mean no, but.
Speaker 2: He ended up two times and rite exactly. And that
Speaker 2: is what really got to Dion, like she was not.
Speaker 2: But Dion started to reveal over through her jealousy kind
Speaker 2: of this when she started realized that she was being played,
Speaker 2: you know, even though she was married. By the way,
Speaker 2: I mean, this gets more and more confusing. I know,
Speaker 2: don't ask me. I'm just the reporter in this.
Speaker 1: But she it sounds like she was in love with
Speaker 1: him right and she thought there would be a future.
Speaker 2: But he'd also was you know. It was a kind
Speaker 2: of a sugar daddy too. He got her a Mercedes.
Speaker 2: I think he helped her get a house through this
Speaker 2: kind of mentoring relationship. This is how she explained her
Speaker 2: relationship with Lance to her husband, that Lance was a
Speaker 2: business mentor. During those times in which her husband would
Speaker 2: come to Atlanta and she had to explain the house
Speaker 2: or the car.
Speaker 1: What does Dion say about that night? Does she say, yeah,
Speaker 1: I came to the house, we had sex.
Speaker 3: I don't even think she said we had sex.
Speaker 2: I think she just said I went over there, I
Speaker 2: got the computer, and then I had to and then
Speaker 2: I came on back. Okay, but it didn't have the
Speaker 2: case on it. The computer protective case and another computer
Speaker 2: had gone back and forth between those homes because he
Speaker 2: loaned that computer to her a few times because she
Speaker 2: was a student.
Speaker 3: But again, Lance Hernon.
Speaker 2: Was super particular, so he never let that case go.
Speaker 2: I mean again, he was a dude that would eat
Speaker 2: like his barbecue ribs with like a fork. He didn't
Speaker 2: because he didn't want the sauce and his nail beds, right,
Speaker 2: I mean, he.
Speaker 3: Did everything on a dime.
Speaker 2: He was just military tight, and so that computer at
Speaker 2: her home without the case just didn't add up.
Speaker 1: That's the victimology part of it, figuring out what's important
Speaker 1: to your victim and what doesn't make sense it's so important. Okay,
Speaker 1: So they are collecting physical evidence, including what I remember
Speaker 1: being hairs and stuffed under his nail bed to see
Speaker 1: what kind of DNA is under there, and it turns
Speaker 1: out that they find hairs they think they can match
Speaker 1: to her. Right, was it a pubic care Do you
Speaker 1: remember that? Yes, but they were having sex, and who's
Speaker 1: to say when that hair produced itself and they don't know, right,
Speaker 1: And the same thing with under his nails. She could
Speaker 1: have said, yeah, we had six a couple of nights ago.
Speaker 1: That's why he has my DNA under his nails.
Speaker 3: That's right.
Speaker 2: So they go over there immediately a nostalgia. They go
Speaker 2: over there and you know, and knock on the door
Speaker 2: the first time, and then she's not home, like, she
Speaker 2: doesn't answer, and then I think they come back, and
Speaker 2: the neighbor recognizes them, you know, and says, hey, like
Speaker 2: you know, she's in there now or something, and she
Speaker 2: comes out and she falls into their arms and acts like, okay,
Speaker 2: you know, she distraught, but not a tear really, And
Speaker 2: so that was a little weird.
Speaker 3: But they didn't have anything.
Speaker 1: So what does Detective Anstossio think happen? I mean, just
Speaker 1: if he is trying Pine and Sky trying to figure
Speaker 1: out what the argument was about, it seemed clear right
Speaker 1: that there was some sort of an argument. She admitted
Speaker 1: that she had been there. There was some kind of
Speaker 1: an argument. I'm assuming over cheating, maybe over Kathy. So
Speaker 1: what does he hide that photo of Kathy every time
Speaker 1: Dion comes over? I mean, it's right there, you know,
Speaker 1: these days it'd be on his cell phone and it
Speaker 1: would be you know.
Speaker 2: That's right, that's right. So one day, I mean, she
Speaker 2: starts to Dion is feeling pretty comfortable early on in
Speaker 2: this budding romance because she's over there, she's studying, you know,
Speaker 2: and I think that they're going to dinner and taking
Speaker 2: trips and it's feeling pretty good. And so one day
Speaker 2: she shows up unannounced and she sees Kathy like walk
Speaker 2: by and Lance didn't let her in the house. You know,
Speaker 2: she sees Kathy like in a pajamas or something, just
Speaker 2: kind of walk by.
Speaker 3: She's livid.
Speaker 2: She screams and says, let me in the house, Let
Speaker 2: me in the house, and Lens is like, I'm not
Speaker 2: letting you in the house. And then Lance ends up
Speaker 2: having to call the cops on her, and the police
Speaker 2: show up and she kind of fights them too, no,
Speaker 2: and when they show up, they she can't find her
Speaker 2: at first because she's hiding. She's in her own car
Speaker 2: on the floor, hiding. So it's starting to get nuts
Speaker 2: right around then, so they end up having to.
Speaker 1: Arrest her for what trespassing.
Speaker 3: I don't think he even opened the door.
Speaker 2: I think he just thought, like, there's a lunatic outside
Speaker 2: my house, you know, and I'm not going to open it.
Speaker 3: And so that is the story he went with. So
Speaker 3: when it was.
Speaker 2: Time for court and this is it, you know, he
Speaker 2: had softened his relationship and said, look, honey, I'm sorry,
Speaker 2: I'm going to come. I'll make an appearance and we'll
Speaker 2: get this thing dropped. The theory is that they make
Speaker 2: love that night, as you mentioned, and then she goes
Speaker 2: downstairs while he's sleeping and goes onto his computer to
Speaker 2: look at his calendar. That court date was supposed to
Speaker 2: be that next day or something, and you know, and
Speaker 2: Lance his notes really detailed always he had scheduled stuff
Speaker 2: out for three years in advance.
Speaker 3: Wow, that's how organized Lance. Herning was.
Speaker 2: That appearance wasn't on the calendar that he was planning
Speaker 2: on helping.
Speaker 1: Her, So she was going to show up and maybe
Speaker 1: get arrested or something.
Speaker 2: Who knows, right, So that's apparently what sets her off.
Speaker 2: And she goes upstairs while he's sleeping, and you know,
Speaker 2: and then there's this theory and again we don't know
Speaker 2: what this murder weapon was, but Lance turned and the
Speaker 2: guess is really good clip Rucker prosecution stuff. You know
Speaker 2: that during all of this time he had ordered an
Speaker 2: exercise machine Oka and arrived in a big box and
Speaker 2: it was kind of a StairMaster or something, and that
Speaker 2: Lance was gonna like.
Speaker 3: Put it together, you know, and he had a crescent wrench.
Speaker 2: So suddenly, even though they never find the murder weapon,
Speaker 2: it's consistent with this crescent wrench that apparently Lance had.
Speaker 2: The question is like LANs just doesn't even seem like
Speaker 2: the type of person that would ever like build his
Speaker 2: own staremaster anyway, you know. But yeah, I mean the
Speaker 2: housekeeper said that she had consistently like they continue to
Speaker 2: bring her. So did you see the crescent ridge that day? Yes,
Speaker 2: I did, sir, Like they put something together.
Speaker 1: So how does Dion explain all of this when she
Speaker 1: goes to trial. Is she just saying, listen, I don't
Speaker 1: know I left him and we didn't even have Saxon.
Speaker 1: That was the end of it. Or does she take
Speaker 1: then she take the stand at all?
Speaker 2: No, she didn't take the step. You know, it was
Speaker 2: mostly that he just yes, she did. She never took
Speaker 2: the stand. The first trial there was some leading the witnesses.
Speaker 2: It compromised the trial, and then the second time there
Speaker 2: was a hung jury. And then by the third trial,
Speaker 2: so many people had died, so many things had happened,
Speaker 2: so much had moved on that like, she just pled
Speaker 2: guilty and I think she ended up with ten years.
Speaker 1: Wonder what the original charge was, if it was like
Speaker 1: manslaughter or second degree murder or something like that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it was manslaughter, Okay, manslaughter because they said it was
Speaker 1: an act of passion and not premeditated. I'm assuming, well, okay,
Speaker 1: so they didn't think it was a she found out
Speaker 1: she well, I guess she knew already that he had
Speaker 1: been cheating on her and she kind of forgave it,
Speaker 1: and so it must have been something different, and so
Speaker 1: that they think, and she never admitted that, right.
Speaker 2: Well, he started kind of pulling away, you know, and
Speaker 2: that freaked her out, and apparently she became more aggressive
Speaker 2: and more I will not be denied.
Speaker 1: So she ends up being well, no, she's not convicted,
Speaker 1: she's she takes a plea bargain and how long did
Speaker 1: she serve her she's still in prison.
Speaker 3: No, she's out now, Wow.
Speaker 1: Husband divorced her. I gotta assume yeah, okay, any idea
Speaker 1: what she's doing now?
Speaker 3: No, I'm wondered. You know.
Speaker 2: It was like so she was interesting too, because I'm
Speaker 2: into this book. I've talked to as many people as
Speaker 2: I can talk to.
Speaker 3: You know, I'm having a hard time, but I.
Speaker 2: Continue to try to write letters to her to see
Speaker 2: whether I can talk to her.
Speaker 3: In prison in prison, and it's not happening. Every time.
Speaker 3: I'm like, and I'm putting the best letters.
Speaker 2: I mean, I spent some time writing these letters, and
Speaker 2: they would just come back rejected. And so one day
Speaker 2: I'm sitting at the office and I get a call
Speaker 2: from a guy named Charles middle Stat and Charles Middlestead
Speaker 2: had been retained by He was an investigator himself, but
Speaker 2: the defense investigator. And so he said, look, I've been retained.
Speaker 2: I've got to like, I've got no time to prepare
Speaker 2: for trial, and I need some help, like, and I
Speaker 2: understand you've been on this thing for two three years.
Speaker 3: Can you like talk to me and just get me
Speaker 3: up to speed on this case?
Speaker 2: And I say, well, yeah, I don't know, like can
Speaker 2: you get me Dion?
Speaker 3: And he says, well, let me call.
Speaker 2: You back, and and you know, and I'm thinking, I
Speaker 2: just want Dion, because like, how can I do this book?
Speaker 3: How do am I like? You know what I mean?
Speaker 3: Like she's a live Like what am I like? It's
Speaker 3: just a hole.
Speaker 2: He calls me back and he says, yeah, He's like,
Speaker 2: but I'm gonna have to be in the room, you know,
Speaker 2: and that and it comes with all of these rules.
Speaker 3: But I just took what I could get.
Speaker 2: So he flies New York and I talked to Charles
Speaker 2: like we developed kind of a little buddy like friendship
Speaker 2: kind of around that, you know, because I help him out.
Speaker 2: And then I fly to Atlanta on different weekend. Then
Speaker 2: we go to the Fulham County jail and she's sitting there,
Speaker 2: you know, and when I walk in, she's kind of
Speaker 2: got a little smirk. And I didn't know what to
Speaker 2: wear that day, but I decided to wear a suit,
Speaker 2: not a not a tie, but just a suit. So
Speaker 2: when I walk in there, she says, oh, you look
Speaker 2: different than your photograph and you look important.
Speaker 3: She said that.
Speaker 2: Before I sent her a picture, I was just different,
Speaker 2: different appeals and stuff. So I would send her a
Speaker 2: casual picture like I'm a guy, I'm a regular guy,
Speaker 2: just you know, and that thing didn't fly.
Speaker 3: I should have had a smoking jacket on and a pipe.
Speaker 1: Yeah, the appearances thing.
Speaker 2: That's kind of her character. Man, it's like she's a
Speaker 2: little haughty.
Speaker 1: Well you should have thought about that, ron because look
Speaker 1: who she was attracted to exactly.
Speaker 3: It made perfect sense.
Speaker 1: So what was she like? I mean, did you find
Speaker 1: her to be some manipulative? Was it shocking to you
Speaker 1: once you got to know her that she would have
Speaker 1: beaten this man to death? That's really what we have
Speaker 1: to get back to.
Speaker 3: You know. And I say this with all like and
Speaker 3: I'm not being coy or cute. It's hard to be
Speaker 3: that surprised by much.
Speaker 2: I mean, first of all, you're in the orbit of
Speaker 2: a lot of people who like are kind of different from.
Speaker 3: Lance to everybody around them.
Speaker 2: So like you're talking about like a select a group,
Speaker 2: a little culture where there's in order to protect whatever
Speaker 2: they have, there's a desperation that I think could.
Speaker 3: Like lead to violence.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I think that if you want to
Speaker 2: protect something bad enough, you'd be surprised at who's capable.
Speaker 2: I mean, I definitely felt like this personal pride.
Speaker 3: Like, how dare you? I'm not going to be used
Speaker 3: by you?
Speaker 1: But what did she want from you? Wasn't she in
Speaker 1: the middle of appeals when you were doing that?
Speaker 3: Yeah, she wanted nothing from me.
Speaker 2: She was just doing that as like because her the
Speaker 2: lawyer told her to. I got a half hour out
Speaker 2: of it, and that was it. And I made it
Speaker 2: like and it became a device, you know, I made
Speaker 2: it my prologue and my epilogue. I just split the
Speaker 2: moment up and I think, like bookends.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you need to have those. And we don't know
Speaker 1: where she is now. And what do you think if
Speaker 1: we think now about Lance, what do we think The
Speaker 1: legacy is not the right word he You know, he
Speaker 1: had founded a company, he had been a boss, he
Speaker 1: had influence. He obviously contributed to the culture of Atlanta
Speaker 1: and to this upper echelon of the community that was
Speaker 1: still building itself. So where do you think his story belongs?
Speaker 1: I know, cautionary tale is what I bet you're thinking.
Speaker 1: But at a deeper level, this is someone who accomplished
Speaker 1: a lot and look at what flipping happened to him.
Speaker 1: How much more could Lance have accomplished had this not happened,
Speaker 1: you know.
Speaker 2: I mean, I think that there's a model now for
Speaker 2: what modern success looks like for African Americans in Atlanta,
Speaker 2: and you can see it in the culture now. It's fully,
Speaker 2: fully evolved into that which is kind of like it's
Speaker 2: got this glitzy, glamy Southern Hollywood, Southern Hollywood.
Speaker 3: And I think he ushered in that era. He was
Speaker 3: the first sighting.
Speaker 1: But he was also the kind of the victim of
Speaker 1: what a lot of people would say success and hubris
Speaker 1: and arrogance and all of that stuff. I mean, not
Speaker 1: to say he's blame for this, Yeah, I mean, I
Speaker 1: think it's an interesting story to fit into the history
Speaker 1: of the city and particularly the history of the black
Speaker 1: community in this city.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, and then it affirms that other thing
Speaker 2: now that we've talked about, which is like people are
Speaker 2: kind of people. So you end up with this kind
Speaker 2: of like it's the same story you're going to find
Speaker 2: in Cape.
Speaker 3: Cod or anywhere in the world. You know, when it
Speaker 3: comes to power.
Speaker 2: And money and greed and hubrisk, we're all vulnerable.
Speaker 1: I agree. I mean, I feel like I've said this before,
Speaker 1: murder is centered on human emotions which don't change. The
Speaker 1: reason people kill now is the same reason they killed
Speaker 1: in the fourteen hundred and fifteen hundreds thirty seven. Ady,
Speaker 1: I mean, it's all the same. It's the things that
Speaker 1: are based on that's fear, anger, which is part of
Speaker 1: fear usually envy, you know, and just sort of like
Speaker 1: self preservation to a certain extent. So I think Lance
Speaker 1: falls into that. Like I said, there's no amount of
Speaker 1: money that could protect him from a crescent wrench. It
Speaker 1: sounds like an angry woman just.
Speaker 3: To speak to your cautionary tale.
Speaker 2: In the end, he was kind of in that courtroom alone,
Speaker 2: so to speak, the spirit of Lance, because guess what,
Speaker 2: none of those powerful friends, none of them wanted to
Speaker 2: be anywhere near that hot mess that he had created.
Speaker 3: Okay, all of this.
Speaker 2: This affection that he was getting from the city was gone.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but the women showed up for him. You said
Speaker 1: they did.
Speaker 3: They really did.
Speaker 2: And there's something redemptive about Lance turning through that because
Speaker 2: they made themselves look cheap by telling those stories, even
Speaker 2: in another era. But to get that truth out, you know,
Speaker 2: they were willing to take that hit.
Speaker 1: If you love historical true crime stories, check out the
Speaker 1: audio versions of my books The Ghost Club, All That
Speaker 1: Is Wicked and American Sherlock and Don't Forget. There are
Speaker 1: twelve seasons of my historical true crime podcast, Tenfold More
Speaker 1: Wicked right here in this podcast feed, scroll back and
Speaker 1: give them a listen if you haven't already. This has
Speaker 1: been an exactly right production. Our senior producer is Alexis
Speaker 1: a Morosi. Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain. This episode
Speaker 1: was mixed by John Bradley. Curtis heath is our composer,
Speaker 1: artwork by Nick Toga. Executive produced by Georgia Hardstark, Karen
Speaker 1: Kilgarriff and Danielle Kramer. Follow Wicked Words on Instagram at
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