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Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised.

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Speaker 2: I've never really seen crime scene photo. This is suddenly

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Speaker 2: real to me now. The brutality of this murder made

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Speaker 2: me feel like that actually should be the mission of

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Speaker 2: yours now in doing the book as so, can you

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Speaker 2: make him a human being and not like this cliche.

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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor

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Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the co host of the

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Speaker 1: podcast Buried Bones on Exactly Right, and throughout my career,

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Speaker 1: research for my many audio and book projects has taken

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Speaker 1: me around the world. On Wicked Words, I sit down

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Speaker 1: with the people I've met along the way, amazing writers, journalists, filmmakers,

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Speaker 1: and podcasters who have in investigated, and reported on notorious

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Speaker 1: true crime cases. This is about the choices writers make,

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Speaker 1: both good and bad, and it's a deep dive into

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Speaker 1: the unpublished details behind their stories. Self made millionaire Lance

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Speaker 1: Herndon was one of Atlanta's elite in nineteen ninety six

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Speaker 1: when he was murdered in his home. Police had a

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Speaker 1: host of suspects, and they soon realized how complicated Lance's

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Speaker 1: life really was. Author Ron Stoggil unravels the story in

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Speaker 1: his book Redbone, Money, Malice, and Murder in Atlanta. This

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Speaker 1: is a very big question. But from the end of

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Speaker 1: the Civil War until when this story takes place, which

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Speaker 1: is nineteen ninety six, what are the changes that happen

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Speaker 1: in Atlanta after the Civil War? Is Atlanta primarily a

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Speaker 1: city with white people or is their diversity, you know,

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Speaker 1: versus where it is today.

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Speaker 2: So Atlanta as always, you know it Georgia, you know,

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Speaker 2: was a big slave state and that population has remained.

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Speaker 2: The way it was explained to me back then was

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Speaker 2: that that that like that they had figured out blacks

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Speaker 2: and whites had figured out a way to kind of

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Speaker 2: live next to one another. Like they took a lot

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Speaker 2: of pride during, for instance, the Civil they haven't had

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Speaker 2: many major major riots there since, you know, way way back,

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Speaker 2: and they take pride in that that the business community

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Speaker 2: and the civil rights community had been in kind of

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Speaker 2: a lockstep and avoided costly mistakes to growing that city.

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Speaker 3: And so my impression is.

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Speaker 2: That there was a thriving black middle class during that

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Speaker 2: time all the way even through you know, from emancipation

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Speaker 2: through Jim Crow, you know, but there was a lot

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Speaker 2: of clergy, a lot of educators. You amassed that power structure,

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Speaker 2: and it manifested in a first black mayor, which would

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Speaker 2: have been Maynor Jackson, you know, and it was upun

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Speaker 2: you know, during his watch that now you see this

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Speaker 2: real thriving black community because he was able to use

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Speaker 2: his perch, you know, in government to steer dollars towards

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Speaker 2: black citizens and at the airport, you know, and the

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Speaker 2: construction of it is kind of symbolic of that.

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Speaker 1: Tell me a little bit about Lance. You've told me

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Speaker 1: a little bit about what you had called the nuvoreche

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Speaker 1: kind of these people who who have very affluent jobs

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Speaker 1: and are now gaining a lot of power in the community.

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Speaker 1: Tell me how Lance fits into all of this. Tell

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Speaker 1: me more about him.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I thought that Lance was a creature of

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Speaker 2: that time.

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Speaker 3: You know, he was born in New York.

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Speaker 2: He had at this sort of computer tech background. So

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Speaker 2: he was moving into Atlanta as Atlanta was starting to flourish,

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Speaker 2: and so he was able to get government contracts and

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Speaker 2: wheel and deal in a city that is populated by

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Speaker 2: black movers and shakers. But he did it with another

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Speaker 2: kind of you know, East Coast flair, and that I

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Speaker 2: would say intersected with the kind of Hollywood, black Hollywood

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Speaker 2: that Atlanta has become today, you know, with the Tyler

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Speaker 2: Perry studios and the music presence.

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Speaker 3: It is kind of the Black Mecca.

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Speaker 2: Was He kind of positioned himself to be a prince

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Speaker 2: of that, you know. In the book, I kind of

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Speaker 2: call him like a Gatsby figure. He threw great parties,

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Speaker 2: he knew everyone. That's the public part of Lance.

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Speaker 1: So the assumption I have, and tell me if I'm wrong,

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Speaker 1: is he is intelligent, charming, good looking, popular with women.

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Speaker 1: Is any of that inaccurate about Lance?

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Speaker 3: No, that's probably all an understatement to be.

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Speaker 1: A Gatsby figure in Atlanta, I think those are all

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Speaker 1: probably requirements. What else is there about him, though, that

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Speaker 1: you found to be intriguing or unique? That has nothing

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Speaker 1: to do with the crime, but just sort of what

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Speaker 1: is it about him that you think it was intriguing

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Speaker 1: to other people too?

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Speaker 3: He was known as a very generous guy.

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Speaker 2: She was very very well liked by a lot of

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Speaker 2: people because he listened. You know, this is what I

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Speaker 2: You know, maybe as a reporter, I'm fascinated. I was

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Speaker 2: fascinated by that, But you know, he was the kind

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Speaker 2: of person that if he met you that he would

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Speaker 2: sort of find out your daughter or son's interest and

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Speaker 2: you know, and drop a gift by there, you know

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Speaker 2: what I mean that, Yeah, there's some tickets to a

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Speaker 2: theater or a game or that kind of very thoughtful person,

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Speaker 2: you know. And and and you could say he was

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Speaker 2: opportunistic and machiavellian, you know, but very well liked the

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Speaker 2: man about town, you know. And I think in a

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Speaker 2: city of strivers and climbers, there was a lot of

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Speaker 2: currency in that.

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Speaker 1: You said he came from New York. Was he close

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Speaker 1: to his family? Were they still in New York or

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Speaker 1: did anybody fall on them down to Atlanta?

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Speaker 2: Well, his mom moved there with him to Atlanta, you know,

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Speaker 2: and his dad and mom had.

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Speaker 3: Split years ago.

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Speaker 2: So he was raised by a single mother, being the

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Speaker 2: son of a single mother who was very strict and

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Speaker 2: she worked like a lot of jobs, and she would

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Speaker 2: leave all of these posted notes around the apartment that

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Speaker 2: would kind of guide him through his day because he

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Speaker 2: was a latchkey kid, and that fundamentally kind of became

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Speaker 2: his work ethic and his style of management because he

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Speaker 2: did to talk to his employees as much as leave tapes,

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Speaker 2: you know, the night before, so that they would come

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Speaker 2: in and have their marching orders.

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Speaker 3: He just felt like that.

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Speaker 2: Was if I'm talking to you during the day, then

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Speaker 2: I'm wasting time and money.

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Speaker 1: His mother must have just been over the moon when

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Speaker 1: he became so successful and successful enough I'm assuming to

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Speaker 1: support her and bring her down to Atlanta. I mean,

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Speaker 1: that's a lot about their relationship.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I mean she lived down the street, you know,

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Speaker 2: and she was very much the matriarch, you know, she

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Speaker 2: worried about him, you know. But my impression is that

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Speaker 2: they were very very close and saw one another daily.

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Speaker 1: Had he ever been he's forty one when he dies,

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Speaker 1: had he ever been married or had kids or what

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Speaker 1: was his general before we get into some of the

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Speaker 1: heavier stuff here, what was his general approach to relationships

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Speaker 1: from the time that he was, you know, dating age

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Speaker 1: up until he ends up dying.

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Speaker 2: He couldn't keep a marriage, you know, he'd been married

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Speaker 2: a couple of times. I think infidelity was the issue,

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Speaker 2: but he had he didn't have kids prior he had

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Speaker 2: kids with this this third wife, Jeanine Price, a woman

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Speaker 2: from Kansas City, and he'd met her. It's kind of

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Speaker 2: a cool story really, Like, you know, he traveled a lot.

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Speaker 2: He had gone to Brazil and there's that statue, there

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Speaker 2: is the Christ, you know, and he apparently was just

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Speaker 2: there taking pictures and just being a tourist. She also

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Speaker 2: was there because she was a flight attendant, like a

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Speaker 2: corporate flight attendant though, and so yeah, they locked eyes

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Speaker 2: at the bott at the foot of this you know, statue,

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Speaker 2: and it like they were the only African American people

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Speaker 2: in the crowd.

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Speaker 3: They spoke the same language.

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Speaker 1: Divine intervention then, right.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, she was just like, this must be the man

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Speaker 3: for me.

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Speaker 1: Well, I think we need to get to the crime

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Speaker 1: that happens and how it all becomes discovered. Let's just

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Speaker 1: talk about what led to his depth. Where does it

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Speaker 1: make sense for you to start, you know, toward that event.

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Speaker 2: Well, Kate, you're just you know, you're brilliant because your

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Speaker 2: timing couldn't be better. It's the you know, we just

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Speaker 2: finished up the Olympics in Paris, you know, and so

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Speaker 2: Lance was killed. As you can imagine, they found his

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Speaker 2: body on that like they did the closing ceremonies on Sunday, right,

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Speaker 2: and they found him on Monday, morning, very very early,

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Speaker 2: right during the Atlanta Olympics, you know, and so this

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Speaker 2: is a time in which a city puts itself on display.

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Speaker 3: He had enjoyed a lot.

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Speaker 2: Of those festivities, you know, as you can imagine, he

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Speaker 2: had tickets to everything, and so he spent a lot

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Speaker 2: of time. And then they found him one morning on

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Speaker 2: that Monday morning, bludgeoned to death in his mansion. They

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Speaker 2: found him in bed. You know, his skull was cracked open,

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Speaker 2: and he was nude, and there was blood spatter.

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Speaker 4: On the wall behind him and on the headboard, and

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Speaker 4: could you could kind of see that these descending blows

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Speaker 4: they were about I don't know, twelve or something like that.

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Speaker 2: Wow, it was clear that it was like some kind

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Speaker 2: of crime of passion. At least that's what that, you know, automatically,

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Speaker 2: because they were just like, wow, you know, this this

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Speaker 2: whatever object, this blunt force object, just descending down and

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Speaker 2: you could see the spatter on the walls. There were

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Speaker 2: some carpet and prints, shoe and prints.

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Speaker 1: So who was the last person and to see him alive,

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Speaker 1: which I assume would have been closing ceremonies the night before,

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Speaker 1: on Sunday night.

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Speaker 3: It would have been one of his office workers.

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Speaker 2: He had an event coming up that he was sponsoring,

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Speaker 2: and so one of his employees and he had had

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Speaker 2: to had an affair with her years prior, all off

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Speaker 2: and on one right exactly. That became kind of a

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Speaker 2: big thing because it was such a forensics driven case

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Speaker 2: and he was such a womanizer, right that when you

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Speaker 2: look like all of this DNA in his room and stuff,

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Speaker 2: how do you connect it to anyone?

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Speaker 3: Really?

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Speaker 1: You know, he has a big inner circle, right, you

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Speaker 1: know when they're when the police are looking, they're looking

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Speaker 1: tight first, and he's exposed to a lot besides the

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Speaker 1: people he's exposed to through business. Then he's got all

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Speaker 1: of these women around him. And then he goes to nightclubs,

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Speaker 1: so there are people who know him who he's not

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Speaker 1: even sleeping with, and so that's a big that's a

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Speaker 1: big inner circle to deal with.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 1: So he has an employee who he's had an often

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Speaker 1: on again affair with, but he goes home by himself.

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Speaker 1: It sounds like, is that right that night, that Sunday night.

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Speaker 2: He does, except then he calls one of this woman

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Speaker 2: that he's had been having an affair with, Okay, and

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Speaker 2: she does come come by I will tell you he

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Speaker 2: was such a cliche in a way because he was

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Speaker 2: a black man who really only liked these fair skinned women,

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Speaker 2: you know, and so entitling the book he loved black

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Speaker 2: women like with European features, and so like there's this

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Speaker 2: slang around that down South. It's like a colloquialism, and

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Speaker 2: they call these kinds of women redbones, like fair skinned

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Speaker 2: black women, and so that, yes, a Southern slang, and

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Speaker 2: so that is the title of the book.

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Speaker 3: That's it grows from that because that's all he liked.

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Speaker 1: Wow, okay, and it's.

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Speaker 2: Kind of offensive, Like nobody really wants wants to be

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Speaker 2: called a redbone, by the way.

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Speaker 1: So let's just think of this as an investigator's point

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Speaker 1: of view. Who do the police get a phone call

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Speaker 1: from Monday morning upon the discovery of this body? What

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Speaker 1: alerts them to begin with?

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Speaker 3: So, as I mentioned, you know, like so he had

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Speaker 3: his office at his home.

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Speaker 2: You know, it's a pretty big home in his but

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Speaker 2: they were blocked off from working upstairs. But the whole

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Speaker 2: downstairs kind of basement suite was like he had a

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Speaker 2: few employees in there.

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Speaker 3: Like four employees, you know.

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Speaker 2: So that morning, his habit, his ritual was that, you know,

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Speaker 2: as an employee, you would arrive to tape instructions and

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Speaker 2: those tapes were not there that morning, and that automatically

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Speaker 2: set off some alarms. So of course, the first phone

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Speaker 2: call they make is to mom, and Mom lives down

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Speaker 2: the street. So Mom comes over there like, hey, I

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Speaker 2: don't know, maybe is sleeping really late or something.

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Speaker 3: I don't know.

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Speaker 2: He's been doing all this Olympic stuff, hanging out every night.

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Speaker 2: And so she goes upstairs and then there's this blood

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Speaker 2: curdling scream and she's like, my baby, my baby. She

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Speaker 2: calls nine one one and they try to kind of

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Speaker 2: talk her down a little bit, and that's how they

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Speaker 2: were alerted.

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Speaker 1: And now I was thinking of suspects. I was thinking, Okay,

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Speaker 1: if this is an employee, you know it was either

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Speaker 1: a crime of passion or not an employee, because you

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Speaker 1: would have known, well, if you're going to murder your boss,

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Speaker 1: do it like Friday night, because this won't be discovered

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Speaker 1: for a couple of days. But that's just me thinking

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Speaker 1: about it. Okay. So Mom calls the police, and the

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Speaker 1: police show up, and I'm assuming they are shocked because

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Speaker 1: this is a beautiful house and a wonderful neighborhood, an

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Speaker 1: effluent man who has a business.

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Speaker 2: They could see he was a bachelor though, because by

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Speaker 2: then his lovely wife had moved out Jane so had

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Speaker 2: taken a lot of the furniture, and he was just

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Speaker 2: kind of there. Let's just say that it was minimalism

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Speaker 2: by then.

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Speaker 1: You know, I've gotten used to asking this question on

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Speaker 1: this show. Do we have competent police on this case

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Speaker 1: or not?

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Speaker 2: I mean, I think that's a good question, you know,

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Speaker 2: and even these days, I think that question becomes more

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Speaker 2: and more complex. But the impression that I get from

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Speaker 2: my reporting is that they don't. These kind of cases

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Speaker 2: didn't happen that often in Roswell.

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Speaker 1: This is Roswell Police who are responding, not Atlanta.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, this is Roswell police.

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Speaker 2: So they may have been a little over there, like

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Speaker 2: this was a little over their head maybe, but you know,

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Speaker 2: I mean committed for sure. Detective Nostalgio, we spent time together.

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Speaker 2: That was the main guy handling it. I think that

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Speaker 2: like people question maybe how he went about things, but

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Speaker 2: I thought he was fairly.

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Speaker 1: But you didn't get the impression that race was going

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Speaker 1: to play a role in this investigation, like it doesn't

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Speaker 1: so many other investigations.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I think that there was a novelty factor.

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Speaker 2: They knew it was going to be this because this

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Speaker 2: guy was all attached all the way up to the

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Speaker 2: district attorney Paul Howard.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And you know Fannie willis the woman that ended up

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Speaker 2: prosecuting Donald Trump. Yes, she succeeded maybe Paul Howard, like

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Speaker 2: the guy, yeah something.

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Speaker 3: You know that's the same office. Yeah, that's where he

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Speaker 3: wound up.

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Speaker 1: I did not know Lance was politically connected in that way.

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Speaker 1: I guess I assumed it was just business. So did

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Speaker 1: he have friends in politics? Also?

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Speaker 3: Very much so?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, I mean, you know, he had a had

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Speaker 2: he kind of the impression I got was that he

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Speaker 2: had everybody on kind of speed dials.

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Speaker 1: You know, how long had he been here before this happened?

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Speaker 1: How many years?

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Speaker 3: I want to say, a couple of decades?

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Speaker 1: Is sha oh? Okay, okay, he is in trench than

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Speaker 1: in this community. Okay. So the police show up and

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Speaker 1: then you have Detective Anastasio. Is that how you say

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Speaker 1: his name?

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Speaker 3: Yeah?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and he reports to the scene and they find

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Speaker 1: what I had read was he it seemed like he

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Speaker 1: had been smacked in the back of the head and stunned,

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Speaker 1: and then everything else seemed to be like really serious

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Speaker 1: facial injuries. And as you were saying, just you know,

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Speaker 1: more than a dozen blows to the front of his face,

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Speaker 1: did he have defensive wounds as far as you know,

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Speaker 1: or was this.

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Speaker 2: No, that's what they figured that he was ambushed, that

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Speaker 2: he must have been like that he was awakened, and

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Speaker 2: then it just came crashing those blows came crashing down

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Speaker 2: before he could even react. What they also found was

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Speaker 2: he was covered up when that you know, his face.

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Speaker 2: I think they took like a sheet and covered them up,

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Speaker 2: as you know, as they moved about the room, and like,

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Speaker 2: I think they cleaned themselves up and I had to

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Speaker 2: cover up a few things, and you know, but that

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Speaker 2: sense from investigators was like they couldn't stand the kind

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Speaker 2: of look at their work.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's not covering up your crime. I mean, they

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Speaker 1: know he's going to be discovered. So yeah, that's that's interesting. Okay,

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Speaker 1: let me ask you a series of questions. Anything taken,

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Speaker 1: I mean, I know Janine took it sounds like everything,

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Speaker 1: but I mean it was anything of value taken?

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Speaker 3: No, I don't think anything was taken.

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Speaker 2: I think what was clear though he had bedside one

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Speaker 2: of his women, you know, photograph of her in like

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Speaker 2: a little you know.

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Speaker 3: Nightgown, and it was it was face down.

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Speaker 2: That picture was face down, So that was another thing

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Speaker 2: like why, you know, was it jealousy?

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Speaker 3: Like why is this photo face down?

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Speaker 2: And actually just to give you a sense of the

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Speaker 2: time too, and kind of maybe a slight creep factor,

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Speaker 2: you might it was in a waterbed. Oh no, right,

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Speaker 2: which meant like that you couldn't really kept his body

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Speaker 2: consistent like that rigor mortis didn't set in, so they

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Speaker 2: couldn't come up with that time of death.

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Speaker 1: And the employee, the woman who he had been sleeping with,

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Speaker 1: off and on, did she give a time when she

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Speaker 1: if she was the last person besides the killer who

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Speaker 1: saw him and she wasn't the killer. Did she say

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Speaker 1: it was like early evening when she left.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think she said she went over there and

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Speaker 2: she borrowed a computer or something. It really like the

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Speaker 2: way it played out, it was all circumstantial, by the way.

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Speaker 1: So let me ask you, because I don't know this

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Speaker 1: time period security systems in ninety six and cameras, was

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Speaker 1: that happening.

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Speaker 3: No, No, they weren't.

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Speaker 2: I mean not at Roswell, not at the lands Herndon home.

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Speaker 2: They didn't pull any of that out. Now it's a

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Speaker 2: good question. I mean, we wouldn't. I wouldn't have had

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Speaker 2: to write a book.

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Speaker 1: No weapons, he didn't have a gun or anything for protection.

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Speaker 2: No, I mean, and they never discovered like what the

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Speaker 2: weapon was. So I'm going to pause here and just say,

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Speaker 2: I'm working at Time magazine in New York City and

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Speaker 2: I hear about this story, and I hear about it

361
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Speaker 2: from my dad, who was a court TV watcher, you know,

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Speaker 2: and at that time, the women were testifying in Lance

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Speaker 2: Herndon's behalf, and my dad was shocked because this was

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Speaker 2: years later and a lot of the women had married

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Speaker 2: and moved on, but they had come back.

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Speaker 3: And so that was like, well, who was liked so much?

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Speaker 3: Who is this guy?

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Speaker 2: So I just parachute in and I wanted to see

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Speaker 2: whether there was a book in this, a story in

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Speaker 2: this then, you know, and I met up in this

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Speaker 2: early investor first investigation, called the assistant DA Clinton.

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Speaker 3: Rucker, who's a lawyer, and he had gotten that case.

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Speaker 3: You know. I talked him into meeting with me.

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Speaker 2: He had moved on, and I mean I had been

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Speaker 2: there two or three days looking through documents, and he

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Speaker 2: was not meeting with me. And then finally he called

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Speaker 2: me and said, hey, you know, of course you know

378
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Speaker 2: meet me.

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Speaker 3: And we met in his office.

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Speaker 2: He said this, he said, huh, have you ever seen

381
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Speaker 2: the crime scene photos? And I said no, and he

382
00:21:32,800 --> 00:21:36,800
Speaker 2: said hold on, and I'd never really seen crime scene

383
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Speaker 2: photos and he just kind of were these polaroids and

384
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Speaker 2: he just dropped them on the desk in front of me.

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Speaker 3: I felt nothing but shame at the moment.

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Speaker 2: Like it was like I felt like, Okay, this is

387
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Speaker 2: suddenly real to me now, like this is more than

388
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Speaker 2: just some dramatic or it titillating murder thing like this

389
00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:03,280
Speaker 2: he didn't even have, Like the way he died, the way,

390
00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:07,000
Speaker 2: like the brutality of this murder made me feel like

391
00:22:07,080 --> 00:22:09,959
Speaker 2: that actually should be the mission of yours now in

392
00:22:10,080 --> 00:22:12,639
Speaker 2: doing the book, is so can you make him a

393
00:22:12,720 --> 00:22:17,000
Speaker 2: human being and not like this cliche and tell the

394
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Speaker 2: story about how this story really in the end is

395
00:22:21,359 --> 00:22:27,440
Speaker 2: how a person, a black man in the South, who's

396
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Speaker 2: a transplant, who has the world at his fingertips, seemingly

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Speaker 2: how he would die like just some street dude on

398
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Speaker 2: the corner like that, Like how do how do those worlds?

399
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Speaker 3: Those emotions? You know?

400
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Speaker 2: And if I could answer those questions like and show it,

401
00:22:47,960 --> 00:22:50,280
Speaker 2: then I would have a book that I could be

402
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Speaker 2: proud of.

403
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Speaker 1: Wow. I mean I have often said True crime is

404
00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:58,800
Speaker 1: an excellent vehicle for telling these kinds of stories, not

405
00:22:58,920 --> 00:23:01,760
Speaker 1: for the violence entertainment part of it, but just like

406
00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:04,720
Speaker 1: what do we learn about ourselves, about our societies, about

407
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Speaker 1: whatever it is? You know that we really can sort

408
00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:10,760
Speaker 1: of open up a portal to be able to look

409
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Speaker 1: into a world, whatever that world is that we are

410
00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:17,200
Speaker 1: not familiar with. That's why I love True crime. Let's

411
00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:20,359
Speaker 1: get back to Lance's case. So Crime of Passion. So

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Speaker 1: what is the first thing now that detective Anastasio decides

413
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Speaker 1: to do. Of course, interview people, starting with the employees

414
00:23:28,119 --> 00:23:31,000
Speaker 1: and his mom and trying to figure out who in

415
00:23:31,040 --> 00:23:33,680
Speaker 1: his life might have been targeting him.

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Speaker 2: Right, So, and I can't remember what the insurance amount was,

417
00:23:38,840 --> 00:23:41,119
Speaker 2: but of course the ex wife would have been the

418
00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:46,840
Speaker 2: first suspect. So they talked to her, Janine Herndon, and

419
00:23:46,880 --> 00:23:50,679
Speaker 2: they had a kid together. She was dating again, so

420
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Speaker 2: that proved that one because she was at her alibi.

421
00:23:53,560 --> 00:23:55,480
Speaker 3: Was I think she was with her new boyfriend.

422
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Speaker 2: And then they went to the main woman, Kathy Collins,

423
00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:02,919
Speaker 2: and that was the woman who was kind of his

424
00:24:03,080 --> 00:24:05,760
Speaker 2: the arm candy and is that he would go out

425
00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:10,240
Speaker 2: on the town with, and whose whose photograph was next

426
00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:15,000
Speaker 2: to his bedside, and she had clothing and you know,

427
00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:18,639
Speaker 2: and and she had things at his house, okay. And

428
00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:25,400
Speaker 2: then they had Talana Mitchell, that long time employee.

429
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Speaker 3: And confidant and lover.

430
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Speaker 2: And then is the most recent woman that he was dating,

431
00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:34,200
Speaker 2: and that would have been Dion ba.

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Speaker 1: Well, let me ask you about each of these women. Kathy,

433
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Speaker 1: the woman in the photograph who he was parading around town,

434
00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:44,399
Speaker 1: did she want more from him that he was willing

435
00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:47,400
Speaker 1: to give? What did they establish about their relationship?

436
00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:52,720
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, she kind of became a caricature

437
00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:58,239
Speaker 2: early on because of how she reacted, you know. And

438
00:24:58,320 --> 00:25:03,720
Speaker 2: she reacted like, Okay, while my sugar daddy has just

439
00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:08,000
Speaker 2: you know, it's gone, but I've got things in the house.

440
00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:10,600
Speaker 3: How can I get in there?

441
00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:14,560
Speaker 2: She had some bottles of wine, you know, but now

442
00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:18,760
Speaker 2: it's a crime scene. So she's very frustrated. So then,

443
00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:23,080
Speaker 2: you know, and that frustrated the police, the investigators that

444
00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:26,320
Speaker 2: she would even want to push her way through around that.

445
00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:31,040
Speaker 2: It was always kind of about Kathy, right, And then

446
00:25:31,119 --> 00:25:35,360
Speaker 2: you had Dion, his most recent lover, you know, and

447
00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:38,159
Speaker 2: you couldn't really get a sense she was hysterical, but

448
00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:42,560
Speaker 2: they almost felt like crocodile tears on some level, right,

449
00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:47,240
Speaker 2: So that made him curious. Talana though, had seen him

450
00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:52,280
Speaker 2: the night before, right, and was really nervous, and her

451
00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:54,919
Speaker 2: ex boyfriend had been in trouble, and she kind of

452
00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:57,440
Speaker 2: had a little bit of street in her anyway, So

453
00:25:57,520 --> 00:25:59,919
Speaker 2: she showed up with a lawyer, you know, because she

454
00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:00,919
Speaker 2: was terrified.

455
00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:04,639
Speaker 1: Innocent people call attorneys, they do, that's the smart thing

456
00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:06,320
Speaker 1: to do, calling it. I was so my students at

457
00:26:06,359 --> 00:26:08,080
Speaker 1: call an attorney, yeah.

458
00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:10,120
Speaker 2: So you know, and that said that they wondered why

459
00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:13,119
Speaker 2: she needed an attorney. So these were these were the

460
00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:14,840
Speaker 2: various women.

461
00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:19,119
Speaker 1: What was Tilana's reaction? Since it sounds like if he

462
00:26:19,359 --> 00:26:25,200
Speaker 1: is emotionally invested in anyone, it's probably her because they've

463
00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:27,760
Speaker 1: been together off and on for years, right, and they

464
00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:29,960
Speaker 1: work together. And you said that she was as confident,

465
00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:32,359
Speaker 1: so she should be the one who has I would

466
00:26:32,359 --> 00:26:35,800
Speaker 1: think the most authentic reaction to this man's murder.

467
00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:39,480
Speaker 3: No, I mean, Kate, that's a really good point.

468
00:26:39,640 --> 00:26:43,280
Speaker 2: You know, Like when I was doing my research, it

469
00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:47,160
Speaker 2: wasn't easy to get to people Black. True crime wasn't

470
00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:50,159
Speaker 2: a thing. It's still not a thing. It's still you know.

471
00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:54,400
Speaker 2: And so here I am poking around and people are like.

472
00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:55,119
Speaker 3: Why are you?

473
00:26:55,280 --> 00:26:58,159
Speaker 2: Like why what is the point? And that you're going

474
00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:01,320
Speaker 2: to make them look even worse. Then you know, the

475
00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:04,119
Speaker 2: trial already made him look and you're gonna like the

476
00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:07,880
Speaker 2: family now has got to relive this, you know, and

477
00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:10,639
Speaker 2: you know all of that. But you know it was

478
00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:15,240
Speaker 2: gonna happen because I was down there and I was

479
00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:18,560
Speaker 2: going to try to do a dignity though. Yeah, you know,

480
00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:21,159
Speaker 2: I mean, And so I ended up getting them to

481
00:27:21,359 --> 00:27:26,280
Speaker 2: talk sparingly, different people at different times over a course

482
00:27:26,359 --> 00:27:30,399
Speaker 2: of about three years. Solana was the one that I

483
00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:34,200
Speaker 2: knew I needed to get to. I never stopped trying,

484
00:27:34,359 --> 00:27:39,000
Speaker 2: and she left. She'd left Atlanta, Georgia. She was married

485
00:27:39,320 --> 00:27:42,600
Speaker 2: and living in Colorado. She was a soccer mom by

486
00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:46,200
Speaker 2: then in Denver, and so I went out there, though

487
00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:48,840
Speaker 2: you know, I flew, I got hold of her.

488
00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:51,960
Speaker 3: At one point she just agreed I met me.

489
00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:54,880
Speaker 2: Maybe there was a gesture of offering to just come out.

490
00:27:54,920 --> 00:27:58,000
Speaker 3: It meant that much. I checked into a hotel, you know,

491
00:27:58,359 --> 00:27:59,440
Speaker 3: and we.

492
00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:05,680
Speaker 2: Spent like two days, and I learned a lot about Lance,

493
00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:09,760
Speaker 2: you know, and he became more empathetic. And she, the

494
00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:12,920
Speaker 2: way she described him, was all of that was kind

495
00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:17,600
Speaker 2: of an act that actually he was a show off,

496
00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:21,040
Speaker 2: but you know, it was all power to him. Like

497
00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:25,399
Speaker 2: he wasn't great. He loved to be in bed, but

498
00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:28,399
Speaker 2: you know, with women, but he wasn't great in bed

499
00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:32,439
Speaker 2: and with you know what I mean. And you know,

500
00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:36,840
Speaker 2: but he was a frightened little guy, insecure. But she

501
00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:41,120
Speaker 2: had come from a small town in North Carolina and

502
00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:44,640
Speaker 2: migrated to Atlanta, and she was, you know, attractive and

503
00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:48,560
Speaker 2: younger and a little naive and he was very worldly,

504
00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:51,920
Speaker 2: and so he kind of took her under his wing,

505
00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:55,760
Speaker 2: and she tolerated a lot of like just say, his

506
00:28:55,960 --> 00:28:59,400
Speaker 2: peculiar kinds of ways he liked to live, you know,

507
00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:04,080
Speaker 2: and and and she participated though by the way, you know,

508
00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:07,160
Speaker 2: that's she did, you know, and I got it, you know,

509
00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:08,479
Speaker 2: there's no other way to put it.

510
00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:11,800
Speaker 3: But you know, she was carousing too with him.

511
00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:15,480
Speaker 1: You have the challenge that I often have to, which

512
00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:19,600
Speaker 1: is you have an unsympathetic in some ways, an unsympathetic victim.

513
00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:22,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, like that's what it is, you know,

514
00:29:22,600 --> 00:29:27,160
Speaker 2: that's what separates nonfiction from fiction. You know, Like I

515
00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:29,400
Speaker 2: would have done this all over again, but there's a

516
00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:32,240
Speaker 2: story need, like when you're doing fiction and you have

517
00:29:32,320 --> 00:29:35,000
Speaker 2: a choice, like you're going to make a hero a hero,

518
00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:38,560
Speaker 2: you know, and this is a book really without many

519
00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:39,480
Speaker 2: heroes in it.

520
00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:41,440
Speaker 3: Everyone is so flawed.

521
00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:42,160
Speaker 1: Yeah.

522
00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:43,960
Speaker 3: Even Clint Rucker.

523
00:29:44,040 --> 00:29:48,200
Speaker 2: Who you know is a fantastic prosecutor, he's not without

524
00:29:48,280 --> 00:29:51,960
Speaker 2: flaws in this book. And I don't even know how

525
00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:53,880
Speaker 2: he pulled it off, to be honest.

526
00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:57,280
Speaker 1: Well, let's get to why all of this happened. So

527
00:29:57,480 --> 00:30:01,440
Speaker 1: you've got, you know, Detective Anastasio, who has a list

528
00:30:01,440 --> 00:30:04,440
Speaker 1: of women that he has to deal with, and it

529
00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:07,320
Speaker 1: sounds like he crossed Janine off the list. Is that right?

530
00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:08,920
Speaker 1: She had an alibi? Is that what she told me?

531
00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:09,680
Speaker 3: Correct?

532
00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:11,200
Speaker 1: And Kathy had an alibi?

533
00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:14,320
Speaker 2: Oh yeah she did too. She was actually flying back

534
00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:17,560
Speaker 2: in she wasn't even in town. And it's funny she

535
00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:20,840
Speaker 2: actually was dating someone by then, too, Like I think

536
00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:23,959
Speaker 2: she was cheating on them. I thought it was starting

537
00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:26,560
Speaker 2: to be over right. This is the thing of I mean,

538
00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:30,760
Speaker 2: I'm saying, like there's an overall story, a message around

539
00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:37,520
Speaker 2: kind of this new class and the compass that you

540
00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:40,320
Speaker 2: may have expected that would have grown out of the

541
00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:44,320
Speaker 2: civil rights movement and that anchor right there. But how

542
00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:48,440
Speaker 2: a drift you know, you were, and how it was

543
00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:53,200
Speaker 2: predicted likes by like these black thinkers like W. E. B.

544
00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:57,080
Speaker 3: Du Bois, who had like you know, who had his.

545
00:30:57,120 --> 00:31:03,640
Speaker 2: Thoughts about materialism and about kind of mimicking white values

546
00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:06,640
Speaker 2: in society, you know, and what that was going to do.

547
00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:12,160
Speaker 2: And so it really to me Atlanta was at that

548
00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:14,960
Speaker 2: point in time a reflection of that.

549
00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:19,440
Speaker 1: Well, let's talk about this investigation. There are forensic clues

550
00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:23,840
Speaker 1: and there are suspects. How do we end up with

551
00:31:23,880 --> 00:31:27,160
Speaker 1: the suspect? Who we end up with? What does Detective

552
00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:30,360
Speaker 1: Anastasio end up doing to be able to make an arrest?

553
00:31:30,360 --> 00:31:32,360
Speaker 1: Because there was an arrest, thank goodness.

554
00:31:32,480 --> 00:31:35,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it took him so long and I can't

555
00:31:35,040 --> 00:31:37,640
Speaker 2: even it took him a very very long time to

556
00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:40,560
Speaker 2: make an arrest. They had a suspect in Dion Ball,

557
00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:44,840
Speaker 2: so Lance was coming up on this forty first birthday

558
00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:48,200
Speaker 2: party and that was going to be a big big

559
00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:51,440
Speaker 2: deal because it's Lance, you know, I mean it's fortieth

560
00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:54,720
Speaker 2: birthday party. I think he was in Cape Town and

561
00:31:54,760 --> 00:31:58,920
Speaker 2: he had rented like this stretch Mercedes and they paraded

562
00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:00,560
Speaker 2: around town with you know.

563
00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:02,840
Speaker 3: But that's the kind of dude he was like.

564
00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:08,040
Speaker 2: He also ingratiated himself with a group of like business people,

565
00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:11,400
Speaker 2: like by taking his him out on a lunch on

566
00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:12,360
Speaker 2: a submarine.

567
00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:13,000
Speaker 3: Wow.

568
00:32:13,440 --> 00:32:15,400
Speaker 2: I talked to one of the guys and he said, look,

569
00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:19,160
Speaker 2: I got this invitation. The jet was like waiting and

570
00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:21,840
Speaker 2: they were gonna just we were going down to Florida,

571
00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:24,840
Speaker 2: you know, and we went right down there and we

572
00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:28,440
Speaker 2: just got on this submarine you know, and we like

573
00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:32,200
Speaker 2: right and he said, like I come from a military family.

574
00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:35,200
Speaker 3: Oh, and he said, you know it was a white guy.

575
00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:38,240
Speaker 3: He was like, like, I like that gift. He said.

576
00:32:38,280 --> 00:32:40,600
Speaker 2: I was like he was said it was amazing. He said,

577
00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:42,800
Speaker 2: I will love Lance Herndon forever.

578
00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:46,080
Speaker 1: That's awesome. Yeah, I mean I and I think we

579
00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:48,920
Speaker 1: go back to the flawed character. Everybody's flawed some more

580
00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:53,480
Speaker 1: than others. You finding those sorts of stories really I

581
00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:56,360
Speaker 1: think will drive the book in that you want to

582
00:32:56,360 --> 00:32:59,040
Speaker 1: get to the end to find the justice. So with

583
00:32:59,120 --> 00:33:03,400
Speaker 1: the investigation, we really start to focus on Dion, who is,

584
00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:06,959
Speaker 1: as you described her, his latest girlfriend. Tell me what

585
00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:10,040
Speaker 1: you know about Dion since she becomes the main focal

586
00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:12,320
Speaker 1: point at this point. What do we know about her?

587
00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:20,320
Speaker 2: A native of Kingston, Jamaica, married to a guy who

588
00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:24,200
Speaker 2: was from kind of a very affluent family.

589
00:33:25,040 --> 00:33:27,520
Speaker 3: Then they got married and moved to Atlanta and they

590
00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:29,880
Speaker 3: had a daughter. He was struggling, though.

591
00:33:29,880 --> 00:33:32,520
Speaker 2: I got the sense, you know that he was a

592
00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:35,320
Speaker 2: job as like a pilot. He would go back and

593
00:33:35,360 --> 00:33:38,160
Speaker 2: forth between the island and Florida.

594
00:33:38,280 --> 00:33:40,040
Speaker 3: They were living in Miami.

595
00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:46,400
Speaker 2: And then somehow she ended up coming to school and

596
00:33:46,560 --> 00:33:50,040
Speaker 2: moving to Atlanta, and he came with her for a minute,

597
00:33:50,320 --> 00:33:52,840
Speaker 2: but mostly it was a commuting relationship.

598
00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:53,560
Speaker 1: Okay.

599
00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:57,400
Speaker 2: She ended up working at Marta in the public transportation

600
00:33:58,240 --> 00:34:02,480
Speaker 2: in what is it Metro Atlanta, a rail transit authority

601
00:34:02,560 --> 00:34:06,280
Speaker 2: or something. Her boss was a friend of Lance Herndon's,

602
00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:11,400
Speaker 2: So when Lance sent his invites for this birthday party,

603
00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:16,919
Speaker 2: she intercepted it because she was his admin and knew

604
00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:20,319
Speaker 2: that Lance was hot stuff and decided she was just

605
00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:24,240
Speaker 2: going to piggyback that invitation and go to Lance's forty

606
00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:28,480
Speaker 2: first birthday party and that's where he met her and

607
00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:29,520
Speaker 2: he was smitten.

608
00:34:30,160 --> 00:34:33,520
Speaker 1: How long ago was that from his death? What was

609
00:34:33,560 --> 00:34:34,320
Speaker 1: the time period?

610
00:34:34,640 --> 00:34:37,080
Speaker 3: I would say, like four or five months.

611
00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:42,920
Speaker 1: Not smitten enough to dump Kathy Collins obviously, I mean no, but.

612
00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:47,239
Speaker 2: He ended up two times and rite exactly. And that

613
00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:51,839
Speaker 2: is what really got to Dion, like she was not.

614
00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:57,279
Speaker 2: But Dion started to reveal over through her jealousy kind

615
00:34:57,360 --> 00:35:01,800
Speaker 2: of this when she started realized that she was being played,

616
00:35:03,200 --> 00:35:05,479
Speaker 2: you know, even though she was married. By the way,

617
00:35:05,560 --> 00:35:07,759
Speaker 2: I mean, this gets more and more confusing. I know,

618
00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:09,879
Speaker 2: don't ask me. I'm just the reporter in this.

619
00:35:10,239 --> 00:35:11,840
Speaker 1: But she it sounds like she was in love with

620
00:35:11,920 --> 00:35:14,240
Speaker 1: him right and she thought there would be a future.

621
00:35:14,360 --> 00:35:16,319
Speaker 2: But he'd also was you know. It was a kind

622
00:35:16,360 --> 00:35:18,839
Speaker 2: of a sugar daddy too. He got her a Mercedes.

623
00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:22,520
Speaker 2: I think he helped her get a house through this

624
00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:26,719
Speaker 2: kind of mentoring relationship. This is how she explained her

625
00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:30,560
Speaker 2: relationship with Lance to her husband, that Lance was a

626
00:35:30,600 --> 00:35:34,480
Speaker 2: business mentor. During those times in which her husband would

627
00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:38,440
Speaker 2: come to Atlanta and she had to explain the house

628
00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:39,960
Speaker 2: or the car.

629
00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:42,960
Speaker 1: What does Dion say about that night? Does she say, yeah,

630
00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:44,439
Speaker 1: I came to the house, we had sex.

631
00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:46,560
Speaker 3: I don't even think she said we had sex.

632
00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:48,840
Speaker 2: I think she just said I went over there, I

633
00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:51,279
Speaker 2: got the computer, and then I had to and then

634
00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:55,360
Speaker 2: I came on back. Okay, but it didn't have the

635
00:35:55,600 --> 00:36:00,720
Speaker 2: case on it. The computer protective case and another computer

636
00:36:00,760 --> 00:36:03,719
Speaker 2: had gone back and forth between those homes because he

637
00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:06,840
Speaker 2: loaned that computer to her a few times because she

638
00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:07,560
Speaker 2: was a student.

639
00:36:08,440 --> 00:36:10,439
Speaker 3: But again, Lance Hernon.

640
00:36:10,239 --> 00:36:14,200
Speaker 2: Was super particular, so he never let that case go.

641
00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:16,480
Speaker 2: I mean again, he was a dude that would eat

642
00:36:16,520 --> 00:36:21,680
Speaker 2: like his barbecue ribs with like a fork. He didn't

643
00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:26,080
Speaker 2: because he didn't want the sauce and his nail beds, right,

644
00:36:26,680 --> 00:36:28,480
Speaker 2: I mean, he.

645
00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:29,880
Speaker 3: Did everything on a dime.

646
00:36:30,040 --> 00:36:35,480
Speaker 2: He was just military tight, and so that computer at

647
00:36:35,480 --> 00:36:39,279
Speaker 2: her home without the case just didn't add up.

648
00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:42,560
Speaker 1: That's the victimology part of it, figuring out what's important

649
00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:47,480
Speaker 1: to your victim and what doesn't make sense it's so important. Okay,

650
00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:51,040
Speaker 1: So they are collecting physical evidence, including what I remember

651
00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:54,919
Speaker 1: being hairs and stuffed under his nail bed to see

652
00:36:54,960 --> 00:36:57,520
Speaker 1: what kind of DNA is under there, and it turns

653
00:36:57,560 --> 00:37:00,919
Speaker 1: out that they find hairs they think they can match

654
00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:03,200
Speaker 1: to her. Right, was it a pubic care Do you

655
00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:06,840
Speaker 1: remember that? Yes, but they were having sex, and who's

656
00:37:06,920 --> 00:37:10,399
Speaker 1: to say when that hair produced itself and they don't know, right,

657
00:37:10,440 --> 00:37:12,879
Speaker 1: And the same thing with under his nails. She could

658
00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:15,040
Speaker 1: have said, yeah, we had six a couple of nights ago.

659
00:37:15,080 --> 00:37:17,719
Speaker 1: That's why he has my DNA under his nails.

660
00:37:18,160 --> 00:37:18,680
Speaker 3: That's right.

661
00:37:19,200 --> 00:37:22,360
Speaker 2: So they go over there immediately a nostalgia. They go

662
00:37:22,520 --> 00:37:25,120
Speaker 2: over there and you know, and knock on the door

663
00:37:25,239 --> 00:37:28,759
Speaker 2: the first time, and then she's not home, like, she

664
00:37:28,880 --> 00:37:32,640
Speaker 2: doesn't answer, and then I think they come back, and

665
00:37:32,920 --> 00:37:37,560
Speaker 2: the neighbor recognizes them, you know, and says, hey, like

666
00:37:37,760 --> 00:37:40,400
Speaker 2: you know, she's in there now or something, and she

667
00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:44,840
Speaker 2: comes out and she falls into their arms and acts like, okay,

668
00:37:45,920 --> 00:37:51,200
Speaker 2: you know, she distraught, but not a tear really, And

669
00:37:51,320 --> 00:37:53,400
Speaker 2: so that was a little weird.

670
00:37:53,480 --> 00:37:54,840
Speaker 3: But they didn't have anything.

671
00:37:55,520 --> 00:38:00,920
Speaker 1: So what does Detective Anstossio think happen? I mean, just

672
00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:03,560
Speaker 1: if he is trying Pine and Sky trying to figure

673
00:38:03,600 --> 00:38:06,680
Speaker 1: out what the argument was about, it seemed clear right

674
00:38:06,760 --> 00:38:09,080
Speaker 1: that there was some sort of an argument. She admitted

675
00:38:09,120 --> 00:38:11,279
Speaker 1: that she had been there. There was some kind of

676
00:38:11,320 --> 00:38:14,560
Speaker 1: an argument. I'm assuming over cheating, maybe over Kathy. So

677
00:38:14,640 --> 00:38:17,560
Speaker 1: what does he hide that photo of Kathy every time

678
00:38:17,640 --> 00:38:20,319
Speaker 1: Dion comes over? I mean, it's right there, you know,

679
00:38:20,520 --> 00:38:22,239
Speaker 1: these days it'd be on his cell phone and it

680
00:38:22,280 --> 00:38:23,239
Speaker 1: would be you know.

681
00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:27,080
Speaker 2: That's right, that's right. So one day, I mean, she

682
00:38:27,200 --> 00:38:31,120
Speaker 2: starts to Dion is feeling pretty comfortable early on in

683
00:38:31,160 --> 00:38:36,759
Speaker 2: this budding romance because she's over there, she's studying, you know,

684
00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:39,640
Speaker 2: and I think that they're going to dinner and taking

685
00:38:39,800 --> 00:38:43,879
Speaker 2: trips and it's feeling pretty good. And so one day

686
00:38:43,920 --> 00:38:48,879
Speaker 2: she shows up unannounced and she sees Kathy like walk

687
00:38:49,000 --> 00:38:53,000
Speaker 2: by and Lance didn't let her in the house. You know,

688
00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:57,239
Speaker 2: she sees Kathy like in a pajamas or something, just

689
00:38:57,400 --> 00:38:58,319
Speaker 2: kind of walk by.

690
00:38:58,760 --> 00:38:59,480
Speaker 3: She's livid.

691
00:39:00,239 --> 00:39:03,960
Speaker 2: She screams and says, let me in the house, Let

692
00:39:04,000 --> 00:39:05,880
Speaker 2: me in the house, and Lens is like, I'm not

693
00:39:05,960 --> 00:39:10,000
Speaker 2: letting you in the house. And then Lance ends up

694
00:39:10,080 --> 00:39:13,280
Speaker 2: having to call the cops on her, and the police

695
00:39:13,320 --> 00:39:17,360
Speaker 2: show up and she kind of fights them too, no,

696
00:39:17,520 --> 00:39:20,279
Speaker 2: and when they show up, they she can't find her

697
00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:24,320
Speaker 2: at first because she's hiding. She's in her own car

698
00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:27,640
Speaker 2: on the floor, hiding. So it's starting to get nuts

699
00:39:27,719 --> 00:39:31,480
Speaker 2: right around then, so they end up having to.

700
00:39:31,560 --> 00:39:33,600
Speaker 1: Arrest her for what trespassing.

701
00:39:33,680 --> 00:39:35,360
Speaker 3: I don't think he even opened the door.

702
00:39:35,400 --> 00:39:38,000
Speaker 2: I think he just thought, like, there's a lunatic outside

703
00:39:38,040 --> 00:39:41,160
Speaker 2: my house, you know, and I'm not going to open it.

704
00:39:41,200 --> 00:39:43,920
Speaker 3: And so that is the story he went with. So

705
00:39:44,080 --> 00:39:44,640
Speaker 3: when it was.

706
00:39:44,640 --> 00:39:48,000
Speaker 2: Time for court and this is it, you know, he

707
00:39:48,080 --> 00:39:51,400
Speaker 2: had softened his relationship and said, look, honey, I'm sorry,

708
00:39:51,840 --> 00:39:54,919
Speaker 2: I'm going to come. I'll make an appearance and we'll

709
00:39:54,960 --> 00:39:59,879
Speaker 2: get this thing dropped. The theory is that they make

710
00:40:00,160 --> 00:40:04,040
Speaker 2: love that night, as you mentioned, and then she goes

711
00:40:04,120 --> 00:40:10,319
Speaker 2: downstairs while he's sleeping and goes onto his computer to

712
00:40:10,440 --> 00:40:14,160
Speaker 2: look at his calendar. That court date was supposed to

713
00:40:14,200 --> 00:40:17,400
Speaker 2: be that next day or something, and you know, and

714
00:40:17,520 --> 00:40:23,680
Speaker 2: Lance his notes really detailed always he had scheduled stuff

715
00:40:23,719 --> 00:40:25,680
Speaker 2: out for three years in advance.

716
00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:28,839
Speaker 3: Wow, that's how organized Lance. Herning was.

717
00:40:29,760 --> 00:40:34,560
Speaker 2: That appearance wasn't on the calendar that he was planning

718
00:40:34,600 --> 00:40:35,800
Speaker 2: on helping.

719
00:40:35,400 --> 00:40:37,719
Speaker 1: Her, So she was going to show up and maybe

720
00:40:37,760 --> 00:40:38,920
Speaker 1: get arrested or something.

721
00:40:38,920 --> 00:40:43,680
Speaker 2: Who knows, right, So that's apparently what sets her off.

722
00:40:44,040 --> 00:40:47,440
Speaker 2: And she goes upstairs while he's sleeping, and you know,

723
00:40:47,560 --> 00:40:50,560
Speaker 2: and then there's this theory and again we don't know

724
00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:53,719
Speaker 2: what this murder weapon was, but Lance turned and the

725
00:40:53,800 --> 00:40:57,560
Speaker 2: guess is really good clip Rucker prosecution stuff. You know

726
00:40:58,040 --> 00:41:02,480
Speaker 2: that during all of this time he had ordered an

727
00:41:02,600 --> 00:41:07,640
Speaker 2: exercise machine Oka and arrived in a big box and

728
00:41:07,719 --> 00:41:11,160
Speaker 2: it was kind of a StairMaster or something, and that

729
00:41:11,320 --> 00:41:12,640
Speaker 2: Lance was gonna like.

730
00:41:12,800 --> 00:41:16,400
Speaker 3: Put it together, you know, and he had a crescent wrench.

731
00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:20,680
Speaker 2: So suddenly, even though they never find the murder weapon,

732
00:41:21,200 --> 00:41:26,600
Speaker 2: it's consistent with this crescent wrench that apparently Lance had.

733
00:41:27,560 --> 00:41:30,400
Speaker 2: The question is like LANs just doesn't even seem like

734
00:41:30,440 --> 00:41:32,640
Speaker 2: the type of person that would ever like build his

735
00:41:32,719 --> 00:41:36,319
Speaker 2: own staremaster anyway, you know. But yeah, I mean the

736
00:41:36,400 --> 00:41:39,880
Speaker 2: housekeeper said that she had consistently like they continue to

737
00:41:39,920 --> 00:41:42,919
Speaker 2: bring her. So did you see the crescent ridge that day? Yes,

738
00:41:43,000 --> 00:41:45,400
Speaker 2: I did, sir, Like they put something together.

739
00:41:45,840 --> 00:41:49,480
Speaker 1: So how does Dion explain all of this when she

740
00:41:49,640 --> 00:41:52,439
Speaker 1: goes to trial. Is she just saying, listen, I don't

741
00:41:52,480 --> 00:41:54,800
Speaker 1: know I left him and we didn't even have Saxon.

742
00:41:54,880 --> 00:41:56,879
Speaker 1: That was the end of it. Or does she take

743
00:41:56,920 --> 00:41:58,400
Speaker 1: then she take the stand at all?

744
00:41:58,680 --> 00:42:00,799
Speaker 2: No, she didn't take the step. You know, it was

745
00:42:00,880 --> 00:42:03,560
Speaker 2: mostly that he just yes, she did. She never took

746
00:42:03,560 --> 00:42:08,399
Speaker 2: the stand. The first trial there was some leading the witnesses.

747
00:42:08,800 --> 00:42:13,799
Speaker 2: It compromised the trial, and then the second time there

748
00:42:13,880 --> 00:42:18,000
Speaker 2: was a hung jury. And then by the third trial,

749
00:42:18,560 --> 00:42:21,960
Speaker 2: so many people had died, so many things had happened,

750
00:42:22,080 --> 00:42:26,160
Speaker 2: so much had moved on that like, she just pled

751
00:42:26,239 --> 00:42:29,400
Speaker 2: guilty and I think she ended up with ten years.

752
00:42:29,760 --> 00:42:32,560
Speaker 1: Wonder what the original charge was, if it was like

753
00:42:32,680 --> 00:42:35,440
Speaker 1: manslaughter or second degree murder or something like that. Yeah,

754
00:42:35,480 --> 00:42:38,000
Speaker 1: it was manslaughter, Okay, manslaughter because they said it was

755
00:42:38,000 --> 00:42:42,080
Speaker 1: an act of passion and not premeditated. I'm assuming, well, okay,

756
00:42:42,239 --> 00:42:44,319
Speaker 1: so they didn't think it was a she found out

757
00:42:44,360 --> 00:42:47,120
Speaker 1: she well, I guess she knew already that he had

758
00:42:47,120 --> 00:42:50,279
Speaker 1: been cheating on her and she kind of forgave it,

759
00:42:50,560 --> 00:42:52,719
Speaker 1: and so it must have been something different, and so

760
00:42:52,840 --> 00:42:55,080
Speaker 1: that they think, and she never admitted that, right.

761
00:42:55,200 --> 00:42:58,439
Speaker 2: Well, he started kind of pulling away, you know, and

762
00:42:58,480 --> 00:43:02,480
Speaker 2: that freaked her out, and apparently she became more aggressive

763
00:43:02,880 --> 00:43:05,000
Speaker 2: and more I will not be denied.

764
00:43:05,600 --> 00:43:09,040
Speaker 1: So she ends up being well, no, she's not convicted,

765
00:43:09,160 --> 00:43:12,960
Speaker 1: she's she takes a plea bargain and how long did

766
00:43:13,000 --> 00:43:14,600
Speaker 1: she serve her she's still in prison.

767
00:43:15,120 --> 00:43:17,560
Speaker 3: No, she's out now, Wow.

768
00:43:17,400 --> 00:43:22,000
Speaker 1: Husband divorced her. I gotta assume yeah, okay, any idea

769
00:43:22,040 --> 00:43:22,919
Speaker 1: what she's doing now?

770
00:43:23,320 --> 00:43:24,440
Speaker 3: No, I'm wondered. You know.

771
00:43:24,560 --> 00:43:28,680
Speaker 2: It was like so she was interesting too, because I'm

772
00:43:28,840 --> 00:43:32,319
Speaker 2: into this book. I've talked to as many people as

773
00:43:32,320 --> 00:43:33,120
Speaker 2: I can talk to.

774
00:43:33,760 --> 00:43:35,879
Speaker 3: You know, I'm having a hard time, but I.

775
00:43:35,920 --> 00:43:39,960
Speaker 2: Continue to try to write letters to her to see

776
00:43:40,000 --> 00:43:41,600
Speaker 2: whether I can talk to her.

777
00:43:41,640 --> 00:43:45,399
Speaker 3: In prison in prison, and it's not happening. Every time.

778
00:43:45,480 --> 00:43:47,480
Speaker 3: I'm like, and I'm putting the best letters.

779
00:43:48,520 --> 00:43:51,520
Speaker 2: I mean, I spent some time writing these letters, and

780
00:43:51,560 --> 00:43:54,200
Speaker 2: they would just come back rejected. And so one day

781
00:43:54,280 --> 00:43:57,280
Speaker 2: I'm sitting at the office and I get a call

782
00:43:57,560 --> 00:44:01,680
Speaker 2: from a guy named Charles middle Stat and Charles Middlestead

783
00:44:01,760 --> 00:44:06,080
Speaker 2: had been retained by He was an investigator himself, but

784
00:44:06,280 --> 00:44:11,640
Speaker 2: the defense investigator. And so he said, look, I've been retained.

785
00:44:11,800 --> 00:44:14,960
Speaker 2: I've got to like, I've got no time to prepare

786
00:44:15,080 --> 00:44:19,239
Speaker 2: for trial, and I need some help, like, and I

787
00:44:19,320 --> 00:44:22,240
Speaker 2: understand you've been on this thing for two three years.

788
00:44:22,320 --> 00:44:24,960
Speaker 3: Can you like talk to me and just get me

789
00:44:25,080 --> 00:44:26,600
Speaker 3: up to speed on this case?

790
00:44:27,000 --> 00:44:31,439
Speaker 2: And I say, well, yeah, I don't know, like can

791
00:44:31,480 --> 00:44:32,680
Speaker 2: you get me Dion?

792
00:44:33,239 --> 00:44:35,960
Speaker 3: And he says, well, let me call.

793
00:44:35,800 --> 00:44:38,960
Speaker 2: You back, and and you know, and I'm thinking, I

794
00:44:39,040 --> 00:44:42,040
Speaker 2: just want Dion, because like, how can I do this book?

795
00:44:42,080 --> 00:44:43,399
Speaker 3: How do am I like? You know what I mean?

796
00:44:43,520 --> 00:44:46,279
Speaker 3: Like she's a live Like what am I like? It's

797
00:44:46,440 --> 00:44:47,160
Speaker 3: just a hole.

798
00:44:48,239 --> 00:44:51,000
Speaker 2: He calls me back and he says, yeah, He's like,

799
00:44:51,120 --> 00:44:53,840
Speaker 2: but I'm gonna have to be in the room, you know,

800
00:44:54,080 --> 00:44:56,919
Speaker 2: and that and it comes with all of these rules.

801
00:44:57,320 --> 00:44:59,319
Speaker 3: But I just took what I could get.

802
00:44:59,400 --> 00:45:03,279
Speaker 2: So he flies New York and I talked to Charles

803
00:45:03,360 --> 00:45:06,600
Speaker 2: like we developed kind of a little buddy like friendship

804
00:45:06,680 --> 00:45:10,319
Speaker 2: kind of around that, you know, because I help him out.

805
00:45:10,520 --> 00:45:13,759
Speaker 2: And then I fly to Atlanta on different weekend. Then

806
00:45:13,840 --> 00:45:17,920
Speaker 2: we go to the Fulham County jail and she's sitting there,

807
00:45:18,440 --> 00:45:21,080
Speaker 2: you know, and when I walk in, she's kind of

808
00:45:21,120 --> 00:45:24,239
Speaker 2: got a little smirk. And I didn't know what to

809
00:45:24,280 --> 00:45:26,600
Speaker 2: wear that day, but I decided to wear a suit,

810
00:45:27,080 --> 00:45:29,600
Speaker 2: not a not a tie, but just a suit. So

811
00:45:29,719 --> 00:45:32,919
Speaker 2: when I walk in there, she says, oh, you look

812
00:45:33,040 --> 00:45:36,480
Speaker 2: different than your photograph and you look important.

813
00:45:36,920 --> 00:45:38,160
Speaker 3: She said that.

814
00:45:38,480 --> 00:45:40,840
Speaker 2: Before I sent her a picture, I was just different,

815
00:45:40,880 --> 00:45:43,600
Speaker 2: different appeals and stuff. So I would send her a

816
00:45:43,719 --> 00:45:46,960
Speaker 2: casual picture like I'm a guy, I'm a regular guy,

817
00:45:47,400 --> 00:45:49,160
Speaker 2: just you know, and that thing didn't fly.

818
00:45:49,760 --> 00:45:52,520
Speaker 3: I should have had a smoking jacket on and a pipe.

819
00:45:52,600 --> 00:45:54,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, the appearances thing.

820
00:45:54,360 --> 00:45:57,360
Speaker 2: That's kind of her character. Man, it's like she's a

821
00:45:57,440 --> 00:45:58,240
Speaker 2: little haughty.

822
00:45:58,719 --> 00:46:01,399
Speaker 1: Well you should have thought about that, ron because look

823
00:46:01,400 --> 00:46:04,280
Speaker 1: who she was attracted to exactly.

824
00:46:04,360 --> 00:46:05,760
Speaker 3: It made perfect sense.

825
00:46:06,200 --> 00:46:08,200
Speaker 1: So what was she like? I mean, did you find

826
00:46:08,200 --> 00:46:10,880
Speaker 1: her to be some manipulative? Was it shocking to you

827
00:46:10,880 --> 00:46:12,840
Speaker 1: once you got to know her that she would have

828
00:46:12,880 --> 00:46:15,200
Speaker 1: beaten this man to death? That's really what we have

829
00:46:15,239 --> 00:46:16,080
Speaker 1: to get back to.

830
00:46:16,640 --> 00:46:19,880
Speaker 3: You know. And I say this with all like and

831
00:46:19,920 --> 00:46:23,239
Speaker 3: I'm not being coy or cute. It's hard to be

832
00:46:23,680 --> 00:46:25,560
Speaker 3: that surprised by much.

833
00:46:26,080 --> 00:46:29,680
Speaker 2: I mean, first of all, you're in the orbit of

834
00:46:30,200 --> 00:46:34,880
Speaker 2: a lot of people who like are kind of different from.

835
00:46:34,719 --> 00:46:37,000
Speaker 3: Lance to everybody around them.

836
00:46:37,600 --> 00:46:41,120
Speaker 2: So like you're talking about like a select a group,

837
00:46:42,080 --> 00:46:47,000
Speaker 2: a little culture where there's in order to protect whatever

838
00:46:47,040 --> 00:46:50,719
Speaker 2: they have, there's a desperation that I think could.

839
00:46:50,560 --> 00:46:52,200
Speaker 3: Like lead to violence.

840
00:46:52,320 --> 00:46:54,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I think that if you want to

841
00:46:54,960 --> 00:46:59,880
Speaker 2: protect something bad enough, you'd be surprised at who's capable.

842
00:47:00,160 --> 00:47:03,640
Speaker 2: I mean, I definitely felt like this personal pride.

843
00:47:03,200 --> 00:47:08,680
Speaker 3: Like, how dare you? I'm not going to be used

844
00:47:09,760 --> 00:47:10,200
Speaker 3: by you?

845
00:47:10,680 --> 00:47:12,759
Speaker 1: But what did she want from you? Wasn't she in

846
00:47:12,800 --> 00:47:14,960
Speaker 1: the middle of appeals when you were doing that?

847
00:47:15,120 --> 00:47:16,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, she wanted nothing from me.

848
00:47:16,840 --> 00:47:20,000
Speaker 2: She was just doing that as like because her the

849
00:47:20,040 --> 00:47:23,080
Speaker 2: lawyer told her to. I got a half hour out

850
00:47:23,120 --> 00:47:25,840
Speaker 2: of it, and that was it. And I made it

851
00:47:25,920 --> 00:47:28,759
Speaker 2: like and it became a device, you know, I made

852
00:47:28,800 --> 00:47:33,040
Speaker 2: it my prologue and my epilogue. I just split the

853
00:47:33,080 --> 00:47:36,400
Speaker 2: moment up and I think, like bookends.

854
00:47:35,719 --> 00:47:37,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, you need to have those. And we don't know

855
00:47:37,840 --> 00:47:41,279
Speaker 1: where she is now. And what do you think if

856
00:47:41,320 --> 00:47:44,680
Speaker 1: we think now about Lance, what do we think The

857
00:47:45,120 --> 00:47:47,640
Speaker 1: legacy is not the right word he You know, he

858
00:47:47,719 --> 00:47:51,480
Speaker 1: had founded a company, he had been a boss, he

859
00:47:51,600 --> 00:47:55,560
Speaker 1: had influence. He obviously contributed to the culture of Atlanta

860
00:47:56,160 --> 00:47:58,640
Speaker 1: and to this upper echelon of the community that was

861
00:47:58,680 --> 00:48:03,960
Speaker 1: still building itself. So where do you think his story belongs?

862
00:48:04,320 --> 00:48:08,160
Speaker 1: I know, cautionary tale is what I bet you're thinking.

863
00:48:08,200 --> 00:48:11,120
Speaker 1: But at a deeper level, this is someone who accomplished

864
00:48:11,160 --> 00:48:13,759
Speaker 1: a lot and look at what flipping happened to him.

865
00:48:14,120 --> 00:48:17,680
Speaker 1: How much more could Lance have accomplished had this not happened,

866
00:48:17,960 --> 00:48:18,239
Speaker 1: you know.

867
00:48:18,840 --> 00:48:22,960
Speaker 2: I mean, I think that there's a model now for

868
00:48:23,640 --> 00:48:29,839
Speaker 2: what modern success looks like for African Americans in Atlanta,

869
00:48:30,320 --> 00:48:34,719
Speaker 2: and you can see it in the culture now. It's fully,

870
00:48:35,280 --> 00:48:39,439
Speaker 2: fully evolved into that which is kind of like it's

871
00:48:39,480 --> 00:48:45,520
Speaker 2: got this glitzy, glamy Southern Hollywood, Southern Hollywood.

872
00:48:45,600 --> 00:48:48,880
Speaker 3: And I think he ushered in that era. He was

873
00:48:48,920 --> 00:48:50,360
Speaker 3: the first sighting.

874
00:48:50,560 --> 00:48:52,400
Speaker 1: But he was also the kind of the victim of

875
00:48:52,400 --> 00:48:56,399
Speaker 1: what a lot of people would say success and hubris

876
00:48:56,440 --> 00:48:59,040
Speaker 1: and arrogance and all of that stuff. I mean, not

877
00:48:59,120 --> 00:49:02,000
Speaker 1: to say he's blame for this, Yeah, I mean, I

878
00:49:02,000 --> 00:49:05,240
Speaker 1: think it's an interesting story to fit into the history

879
00:49:05,280 --> 00:49:08,240
Speaker 1: of the city and particularly the history of the black

880
00:49:08,320 --> 00:49:09,520
Speaker 1: community in this city.

881
00:49:09,840 --> 00:49:13,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, and then it affirms that other thing

882
00:49:13,120 --> 00:49:16,080
Speaker 2: now that we've talked about, which is like people are

883
00:49:16,239 --> 00:49:19,200
Speaker 2: kind of people. So you end up with this kind

884
00:49:19,280 --> 00:49:21,800
Speaker 2: of like it's the same story you're going to find

885
00:49:21,920 --> 00:49:22,680
Speaker 2: in Cape.

886
00:49:22,520 --> 00:49:25,799
Speaker 3: Cod or anywhere in the world. You know, when it

887
00:49:25,880 --> 00:49:28,080
Speaker 3: comes to power.

888
00:49:27,920 --> 00:49:32,160
Speaker 2: And money and greed and hubrisk, we're all vulnerable.

889
00:49:32,520 --> 00:49:34,680
Speaker 1: I agree. I mean, I feel like I've said this before,

890
00:49:34,760 --> 00:49:38,520
Speaker 1: murder is centered on human emotions which don't change. The

891
00:49:38,560 --> 00:49:41,200
Speaker 1: reason people kill now is the same reason they killed

892
00:49:41,200 --> 00:49:43,880
Speaker 1: in the fourteen hundred and fifteen hundreds thirty seven. Ady,

893
00:49:44,400 --> 00:49:46,360
Speaker 1: I mean, it's all the same. It's the things that

894
00:49:46,400 --> 00:49:50,279
Speaker 1: are based on that's fear, anger, which is part of

895
00:49:50,360 --> 00:49:53,120
Speaker 1: fear usually envy, you know, and just sort of like

896
00:49:53,160 --> 00:49:56,120
Speaker 1: self preservation to a certain extent. So I think Lance

897
00:49:56,440 --> 00:49:58,480
Speaker 1: falls into that. Like I said, there's no amount of

898
00:49:58,480 --> 00:50:01,520
Speaker 1: money that could protect him from a crescent wrench. It

899
00:50:01,600 --> 00:50:04,799
Speaker 1: sounds like an angry woman just.

900
00:50:04,719 --> 00:50:06,680
Speaker 3: To speak to your cautionary tale.

901
00:50:07,239 --> 00:50:10,120
Speaker 2: In the end, he was kind of in that courtroom alone,

902
00:50:10,719 --> 00:50:13,520
Speaker 2: so to speak, the spirit of Lance, because guess what,

903
00:50:14,400 --> 00:50:17,400
Speaker 2: none of those powerful friends, none of them wanted to

904
00:50:17,440 --> 00:50:22,480
Speaker 2: be anywhere near that hot mess that he had created.

905
00:50:22,600 --> 00:50:24,840
Speaker 3: Okay, all of this.

906
00:50:24,360 --> 00:50:28,400
Speaker 2: This affection that he was getting from the city was gone.

907
00:50:28,920 --> 00:50:30,959
Speaker 1: Yeah, but the women showed up for him. You said

908
00:50:31,320 --> 00:50:32,000
Speaker 1: they did.

909
00:50:32,520 --> 00:50:33,600
Speaker 3: They really did.

910
00:50:34,120 --> 00:50:39,200
Speaker 2: And there's something redemptive about Lance turning through that because

911
00:50:39,239 --> 00:50:46,880
Speaker 2: they made themselves look cheap by telling those stories, even

912
00:50:47,200 --> 00:50:51,200
Speaker 2: in another era. But to get that truth out, you know,

913
00:50:51,280 --> 00:50:52,879
Speaker 2: they were willing to take that hit.

914
00:51:04,480 --> 00:51:07,400
Speaker 1: If you love historical true crime stories, check out the

915
00:51:07,440 --> 00:51:10,319
Speaker 1: audio versions of my books The Ghost Club, All That

916
00:51:10,440 --> 00:51:13,640
Speaker 1: Is Wicked and American Sherlock and Don't Forget. There are

917
00:51:13,760 --> 00:51:17,520
Speaker 1: twelve seasons of my historical true crime podcast, Tenfold More

918
00:51:17,520 --> 00:51:21,200
Speaker 1: Wicked right here in this podcast feed, scroll back and

919
00:51:21,239 --> 00:51:24,000
Speaker 1: give them a listen if you haven't already. This has

920
00:51:24,040 --> 00:51:27,840
Speaker 1: been an exactly right production. Our senior producer is Alexis

921
00:51:27,840 --> 00:51:32,719
Speaker 1: a Morosi. Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain. This episode

922
00:51:32,840 --> 00:51:36,280
Speaker 1: was mixed by John Bradley. Curtis heath is our composer,

923
00:51:36,560 --> 00:51:41,040
Speaker 1: artwork by Nick Toga. Executive produced by Georgia Hardstark, Karen

924
00:51:41,120 --> 00:51:45,560
Speaker 1: Kilgarriff and Danielle Kramer. Follow Wicked Words on Instagram at

925
00:51:45,560 --> 00:51:49,600
Speaker 1: tenfold More Wicked and on Facebook at Wicked Words Pod