Speaker 1: On Theme is a production of iHeartRadio and fair Weather
Speaker 1: Friends Media. You are right now, Katie is looking at
Speaker 1: a painting. Katie, can you tell me what you see?
Speaker 2: So there's a naked white woman on a bed, she
Speaker 2: has her shoes on in the bed trifling, and there's
Speaker 2: a black woman behind her who's fully closed and holding
Speaker 2: a bouquet of flowers. The white woman's gaze is directly
Speaker 2: at you, the person watching the painting, but the black
Speaker 2: woman is looking at the white lady.
Speaker 1: So have you seen this painting before?
Speaker 2: Okay, you've never seen this from.
Speaker 1: Well, so you know it's Olympia and it's by the
Speaker 1: French painter Edouard Money. And it's been a while, but
Speaker 1: I have seen this painting in person. So I love
Speaker 1: seeing paintings from all different periods and styles, including oil
Speaker 1: paintings in the realist style like Olympia is. But when
Speaker 1: there's a black person in an oil Europeans painting, then
Speaker 1: I linger a little bit longer. When I'm in museums,
Speaker 1: I wonder who they were. I wonder what the artist's
Speaker 1: relationship with them was. I wonder if they were real
Speaker 1: or imagined, or if the character is a composite person.
Speaker 1: I wonder how black people lived in whatever setting they
Speaker 1: were in.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it makes sense to linger on those paintings a
Speaker 2: little bit more because they're far less black people in
Speaker 2: white Europeans paintings.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So like when they do show up, I got questions,
Speaker 1: And a lot of times they are like just in
Speaker 1: the background. They're basically shadows or servants. Sometimes there are
Speaker 1: the subject of portraits, though they might look at you
Speaker 1: longingly or thoughtfully, or with some expression that you just
Speaker 1: can't put your finger on. But however they show up,
Speaker 1: I wonder what their story is, who's the model for
Speaker 1: the black person and the painting. Fortunately, plenty of folks
Speaker 1: who do this kind of research for a living wanted
Speaker 1: to go down that exact rabbit hole. So today we're
Speaker 1: going on a little journey through these art models' lives
Speaker 1: just to get to know a little more about a
Speaker 1: few of the women who have gone unnamed on wall
Speaker 1: text and overlooked in art scholarship. I'm Katie and I'm Eves,
Speaker 1: and today we're training our eye on the Black muse.
Speaker 1: The black woman that you described in that painting Olympia
Speaker 1: is named Lore. She's tending to Olympia. In the painting,
Speaker 1: Olympia is a sex worker. That's why she's nude on
Speaker 1: the bed. Why she got shoes on the bed that
Speaker 1: I don't know, no manner I mean also may have
Speaker 1: something to do with class, like showing, oh, I can
Speaker 1: you know? This is what I do in my bed.
Speaker 1: I keep my shoes on. I always got to be prepared,
Speaker 1: So I'm not sure about that. But lour is Olympia's servant,
Speaker 1: and in the book Posing Modernity, the curator doctor Denise
Speaker 1: Morrell points out how scholars really didn't talk about what
Speaker 1: Laura's presence in the painting means. But Laura also shows
Speaker 1: up in Maynee's eighteen sixty one and eighteen sixty two
Speaker 1: painting Children in the Tuilerie Gardens, and Laura is also
Speaker 1: the subject of a portrait Maynee painted the same year
Speaker 1: that he created Olympia. Katie here is Children in the
Speaker 1: Tuilerie Gardens and the portrait of Lore. Do you notice
Speaker 1: any differences between the two?
Speaker 2: So in the gardens painting, she's off to the side,
Speaker 2: like if you crop this, she would definitely get cut out,
Speaker 2: and it seems like she's tending to some white child.
Speaker 2: And then in the portrait you see her. She has
Speaker 2: on nice clothes, little chain, little hair wrap, little ear rings.
Speaker 2: You know, got a little mona. Lisa smiles moment going.
Speaker 1: So what do you notice about the difference between Low
Speaker 1: herself in the two images.
Speaker 2: In the Garden's image, her clothing is depicting that of
Speaker 2: a servant. And also she has no face.
Speaker 1: Yes, so Children in the Tuilerie Gardens was painted before
Speaker 1: the portrait. So as you mentioned, just now, Katie in Children,
Speaker 1: she doesn't have a face. She has a head wrap on.
Speaker 1: You can kind of see the abstracted forms of what
Speaker 1: she's wearing all of the well, a lot of the
Speaker 1: other people in the painting are like that as well.
Speaker 1: When she's in this nature setting. But like you said,
Speaker 1: she is kind of on the margins here, and in
Speaker 1: the portrait she's right in the center. Her gaze is
Speaker 1: off center, but she is the focus of the portrait.
Speaker 1: So it's almost like from Children to the portrait, Lore
Speaker 1: came to life. Manee wrote in his notebook that Laura
Speaker 1: was a very beautiful black woman, but of course Lore
Speaker 1: was more than just her appearance. Slavery was abolished in
Speaker 1: French territories in eighteen forty eight. Now, look, that wasn't
Speaker 1: the first time that slavery was abolished in the French territories,
Speaker 1: and later on you'll hear me talk about it being
Speaker 1: abolished at different times. But don't be confused. This is
Speaker 1: one time that slavery was abolished in French territories and
Speaker 1: because of that, the lore that's in these paintings was
Speaker 1: a free black woman. She lived at eleven Rue Vontemiel
Speaker 1: in Paris, not too far from Manet studio. There was
Speaker 1: a small but growing community of free black folks in
Speaker 1: her part of the city, which was on the north side.
Speaker 1: And it's great that we know her name and where
Speaker 1: she lived, but there isn't a lot of information about
Speaker 1: her life outside of those details. But we do know
Speaker 1: a little bit more about Fanny Eaton. More on this
Speaker 1: muse after the break.
Speaker 2: So Fanny Eaton, where would I have seen her?
Speaker 1: You might have seen her in paintings by Dante, Gabrielle Rosetti,
Speaker 1: Rebecca Solomon, Simeon Solomon, and Johanna mary Wells. She was
Speaker 1: the muse for a lot of pre Raphaelite artists. Here's
Speaker 1: a side view of Fanny Katie shown in the painting
Speaker 1: Head of a Mulatta Woman by Joanna mary Wells. How
Speaker 1: does Fanny look to you? She cute?
Speaker 2: She cute. You know, she got a nice little shawl on,
Speaker 2: a nice little I would say, see through shawl, nice
Speaker 2: little pearl ear rings. You know, her gaze is like downcast.
Speaker 2: Maybe she's very pensive in this moment, but you know
Speaker 2: she's taking it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and the background of this is like pretty somber looking,
Speaker 1: as like a gray greenish brown situation. But it doesn't
Speaker 1: really come off as sad to me. It just comes
Speaker 1: off as like a little ritzy. I think, you know,
Speaker 1: the outfit she's wearing, it's giving chaffon or silk or
Speaker 1: something like that. And yeah, she looks like she is
Speaker 1: well off, she's well stationed in life. It's what she
Speaker 1: looks like in this painting. So Fanny, though, was born
Speaker 1: in Jamaica in eighteen thirty five, and her mother was
Speaker 1: probably born in a slavery and her doubts probably a
Speaker 1: white man, but there are a lot of questions around
Speaker 1: her actual ancestry. But either way, Fanny and her mother
Speaker 1: probably made their way to England in the eighteen forties
Speaker 1: and by the time Fanny was sixteen, she was working
Speaker 1: as a servant in London. She married a coach driver
Speaker 1: named James Eaton, and the two of them had ten
Speaker 1: children together over the course of twenty years. Ten kids.
Speaker 2: So she went from being a servant to having ten
Speaker 2: kids to modeling.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I have It's a path, isn't it. She started
Speaker 1: working as a model at the Royal Academy of Arts,
Speaker 1: which is an institution in London. I can say that
Speaker 1: I don't know how she got that job and why
Speaker 1: she chose it is pretty unclear, but what is clear
Speaker 1: is that she had a bunch of kids, so I'm
Speaker 1: sure the money that they needed to support them it
Speaker 1: had to come from somewhere. I don't know how much
Speaker 1: James Eaton was getting, but I would imagine for ten kids,
Speaker 1: you know, she had them over time, so I'm sure
Speaker 1: that the money that she got from her work as
Speaker 1: a model was a great help to her family. So
Speaker 1: the British artist Simeon Solomon was the first known artist
Speaker 1: to draw studies of Fanny. Her first appearance as an
Speaker 1: art model in public was in Simeon Solomon's painting The
Speaker 1: Mother of Moses. In that painting debut in eighteen sixty
Speaker 1: at a Royal Academy exhibition. But the whole thing about
Speaker 1: Fanny and her being amused was that she had light
Speaker 1: skin in this racial ambiguity, and that made her like
Speaker 1: a good muse in the pre laphylite artist's eyes, because
Speaker 1: that meant that she could portray a bunch of different
Speaker 1: figures from the Bible, and that was a rare role
Speaker 1: for black women in Victorian art. In that kind of art,
Speaker 1: they weren't usually models that fit into white standards of beauty.
Speaker 1: They were, you know, othered, and they were there for
Speaker 1: decor ration, often for contrasts and for a scene setting.
Speaker 1: In July of eighteen sixty, Fanny was paid fifteen shillings
Speaker 1: each for three sittings that she did at the Royal Academy,
Speaker 1: so you get an idea of how much she was
Speaker 1: paid for her work. But she stopped modeling sometime in
Speaker 1: the eighteen seventies, and nobody knows why, but one of
Speaker 1: her daughters may have fallen in her footsteps and become
Speaker 1: an art model. And at some point Fanny's husband died
Speaker 1: and Fanny started working as a seamstress and moved to
Speaker 1: the Isle of White to do domestic work for a family.
Speaker 1: So as you can see, there are a lot of
Speaker 1: gaps in her story, as there are for a lot
Speaker 1: of black and mixed race women in the past. But
Speaker 1: there is a little bit we know about her in
Speaker 1: any amount, any measure that we can uncover. I think
Speaker 1: it's worthwhile talking about.
Speaker 2: Yeah, looking at her, I wouldn't think she was black.
Speaker 2: But it's interesting too because I don't know how race
Speaker 2: was perceived back then in that part of the world.
Speaker 2: So do you think people saw her as a black woman,
Speaker 2: as a mixed race? Was she like low key passing
Speaker 2: in some of these modeling instances?
Speaker 1: So I think people saw her as a black woman.
Speaker 1: They saw her as having dark skin, So I know,
Speaker 1: right the bar is somewhere, but yeah, they saw her
Speaker 1: as dark skin. So I'm going to show you this
Speaker 1: picture of Fanny Eaton, is a sketch of her that
Speaker 1: looks a little different than the picture that we were
Speaker 1: talking about just now, the portrait where she's got that
Speaker 1: nice shawl on and the nice pearl earrings on. So
Speaker 1: looking at this sketch of Fanny Eaton, what do you see?
Speaker 1: And then after you tell me what you see, we'll
Speaker 1: talk about if you feel any differently.
Speaker 2: So in this picture she's also looking off to the side.
Speaker 2: Her hair is more visible, like the texture of it,
Speaker 2: more coarse. She still has on nice clothes and jewelry,
Speaker 2: and her skin is still light in this picture. But yeah,
Speaker 2: I can see her being racialized. It's on her hair.
Speaker 1: Yeah. And I don't know how much maneuvering there really
Speaker 1: was back then, as like in comparison to the kind
Speaker 1: of colorism that we have today where we really be
Speaker 1: breaking it down. But if I were to see the
Speaker 1: portrait of Fanny eaton that side view ahead of a
Speaker 1: Mulata woman, I wouldn't immediately say, oh, she's definitely black,
Speaker 1: But once reading into it a little bit more, I
Speaker 1: think I would say I would see like the hair
Speaker 1: texture around the edges of her hair and think that
Speaker 1: she was okay. But there were people, even the artists
Speaker 1: who painted her, who kind of didn't really understand what
Speaker 1: her racial mixture was either, because there was one of
Speaker 1: the artists, Rosetti, who said to someone else that, oh,
Speaker 1: she's not a Hindu, she's a Mulato. And in other
Speaker 1: episodes of this podcast, we've kind of talked about how
Speaker 1: black people did past and when the orientalism was jumping out.
Speaker 1: Black people would pass for what they would call Hindus,
Speaker 1: or they would say that they were Indian and things
Speaker 1: like that. But we don't have any document of what
Speaker 1: Fanny Eaton herself said or how she thought about her race.
Speaker 1: There's a lot of information that's missing, and I don't
Speaker 1: want to speculate around it, but there is no evidence
Speaker 1: that I saw that she denied her race or anything
Speaker 1: like that. So people would just say things about her
Speaker 1: appearance and that how they liked it. Like somebody says
Speaker 1: she had a very fine head and figure, which sounds
Speaker 1: very objectifying, But I mean, I guess that's what you're
Speaker 1: doing there, the object of your painting. Yeah, but I
Speaker 1: do think that takes on another level when you're talking
Speaker 1: about black people and that's what you're gazing at.
Speaker 2: And I guess if she was like the stand in
Speaker 2: for all these other figures, like maybe she had their
Speaker 2: proportions or something that fit well into what they're trying
Speaker 2: to get.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, after the break, we have another black muse.
Speaker 2: Stay tuned, So Fanny Eaton lore. There are a couple
Speaker 2: of black muses whose stories we know a little bit about.
Speaker 2: I imagine there are some that have been lost to time, though.
Speaker 1: Yeah, there are plenty of unnamed black women in white artists'
Speaker 1: nineteenth century paintings, and a lot of the time their
Speaker 1: names remain buried. There are no records of who they were,
Speaker 1: and anything that they may have written about their time
Speaker 1: as models has disappeared or never existed in the first place.
Speaker 1: And that was the case for this painting by Marie Guillamine.
Speaker 1: Benoit ben Wah was a French neoclassical painter. In eighteen hundred,
Speaker 1: she created portrait do negress Or, a portrait of a
Speaker 1: black woman. Ben Wah never took note of her model's name. Katie,
Speaker 1: tell me what you see in this portrait?
Speaker 2: So I see a black woman sitting down. She also
Speaker 2: has on a head wrap, earrings, a white dress, and
Speaker 2: one of her breasts are exposed.
Speaker 1: And how do you feel when you're looking at her expression?
Speaker 1: What do you feel like she's saying through her expression?
Speaker 2: I mean in the American context, but this is French.
Speaker 2: But if I was looking at it and thinking she
Speaker 2: was American, I think she would be saying something about
Speaker 2: like servitude and like still being seen as an object
Speaker 2: for like maybe like breastfeeding babies that aren't hers, but
Speaker 2: trying to get up out of that situation and move
Speaker 2: on to a different like station in life. That's what
Speaker 2: I would think in my American centric.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. So in the painting,
Speaker 1: she is wearing red, white, and blue, which, yes, from
Speaker 1: an American perspective, I think of the American flag, but
Speaker 1: in this case it has been perceived as a reference
Speaker 1: to the French flag. So it may be a symbol
Speaker 1: of the freedom that formerly enslaved people had in the country,
Speaker 1: because slavery was abolished in French territories in seventeen ninety four.
Speaker 1: Plus the French Revolution had just ended in seventeen ninety nine,
Speaker 1: so this painting could have been a nod to liberty.
Speaker 1: You were talking about it too, if you were looking
Speaker 1: at it from an American perspective, because you know, we
Speaker 1: still know around the time period this was slavery may
Speaker 1: come up in our mind. She's not fully clothed, so
Speaker 1: there is the idea of like moving on from liberty
Speaker 1: or thinking about what ways you're confined in your life
Speaker 1: if you're thinking about slavery. So even you, you know,
Speaker 1: from an American perspective, in twenty twenty four. It made
Speaker 1: that link between the two, and that is a perspective
Speaker 1: that some people took on the meaning of this painting.
Speaker 1: But in eighteen oh two, a Napoleon Bonaparte said, just kidding,
Speaker 1: run that back, and he reinstated at slavery. So this
Speaker 1: could also be perceived to be about slavery's return, because
Speaker 1: this painting, to remind you was done in eighteen hundred,
Speaker 1: so it was just two years later when slavery returned. So,
Speaker 1: like you said, her breast is uncovered, and in eighteen
Speaker 1: hundred this was considered pretty inappropriate. But Benoi I could
Speaker 1: have done that as an allusion to how black folks
Speaker 1: were inspected at slave markets. But either way, some critics
Speaker 1: at the time were offended by her nudity. Some didn't
Speaker 1: like how her skim, they didn't like that the image
Speaker 1: had hints of eroticism. But folks weren't really worried about
Speaker 1: who she was back in eighteen hundred. They were just
Speaker 1: worried about the fact that she was black and how
Speaker 1: that affected the art. One critic name Jean Baptiste Bouttard said,
Speaker 1: whom can one trust in life after such horror? It
Speaker 1: is a white and pretty hand which has created this blackness.
Speaker 1: So he's talking about how offended he is by this painting.
Speaker 1: There's like this contrast between the subject of purity and
Speaker 1: liberty and the delicate nature of her draped clothing, and
Speaker 1: that didn't go with the ways that white folks viewed
Speaker 1: black skin as horrifying and ugly. So in this case,
Speaker 1: her skin's pretty dark, so unlike Fanny Eaton, who was
Speaker 1: light skinned, there is not really any ambiguity around what
Speaker 1: her background is. So people were clearly jumping in on
Speaker 1: that and the criticism that they had. They really couldn't
Speaker 1: take the skin, the fact that her skin was dark.
Speaker 1: They thought it was an affront to the whole artistic medium,
Speaker 1: to the esthetic, to the industry, because this white woman
Speaker 1: was painting this dark skin, especially within this context, and
Speaker 1: it hazard to say somebody of her skin tone wouldn't
Speaker 1: be considered a person who could go between different biblical
Speaker 1: figures and create that ambiguity like Fanny Eaton would. So
Speaker 1: if you had to guess, Katie, what do you think
Speaker 1: this woman in the painting's name is?
Speaker 2: I don't really know French names like that, so I'll
Speaker 2: pick one that is not French. Okay, I will say Hagar, it.
Speaker 1: Wasn't Hagar, good guess, but she no longer has to
Speaker 1: be referred to in the title just as Negress, so
Speaker 1: her name is Madeleine. Madeline might have been born into
Speaker 1: slavery and Guadaloupe, and ben Wah's brother in law may
Speaker 1: have brought her to France after that, and if she
Speaker 1: went there as a slave or a servant, I'm not
Speaker 1: fully sure. Maybe she was freed in seventeen ninety four
Speaker 1: when slavery was abolished in French colonies. But as you
Speaker 1: can see, there are a lot of maybes in the
Speaker 1: story that we do know about Madeline. This painting of
Speaker 1: her is in the Louverus collection and on the museum site,
Speaker 1: the painting is actually titled Portrait June femme noir, not Negress.
Speaker 1: It seems like negress and it was still kind of
Speaker 1: a diminutive, derogatory term even in the French language. When
Speaker 1: you go back and read old sources, even American ones,
Speaker 1: and they're talking about black women, they often use the
Speaker 1: term negress. In an American English context, I feel like
Speaker 1: it can kind of sound a little bit more uppny, so,
Speaker 1: but yeah, I think it is interesting though, to see
Speaker 1: the people that we talked about today are just a
Speaker 1: few of all of the muses, and there are so
Speaker 1: many who weren't named. And of course there were muses,
Speaker 1: there were a lot of them who were women, but
Speaker 1: there were also people who were sitters for a lot
Speaker 1: of portraits who were black men. And these kinds of
Speaker 1: people have been the objects of artists I over the years.
Speaker 1: It's interesting because you know, the word muse kind of
Speaker 1: has this connotation of uplifting and there's someone who I admire,
Speaker 1: there's someone who I have a lot of affection for potentially,
Speaker 1: or that I have stuff to learn from it. It's really,
Speaker 1: I feel like a glowing word. And these models were
Speaker 1: the inspiration for the artists. But at the same time,
Speaker 1: there was still a hierarchy, like there was still a
Speaker 1: difference of authority between the artists and the sitter. They
Speaker 1: are still the ones that are working for money. And
Speaker 1: we talked about how Fanny Eaton looks pretty upstanding and
Speaker 1: classy in her picture. She has on the per earrings
Speaker 1: and she has on the iridescent shawl, and then also madeleine.
Speaker 1: She is kind of draped in clothing that wouldn't necessarily
Speaker 1: be working class. But these women were working class, like
Speaker 1: ten children making fifteen shillings for three each for three sittings.
Speaker 1: They had husbands, they had to go back home at
Speaker 1: the end of the day. They changed their professions in
Speaker 1: some cases because for what reasons we don't know, but
Speaker 1: they were still inferior to the artists who were creating
Speaker 1: the work and obviously to a lot of people who
Speaker 1: were viewing the work. And I've seen some sources that
Speaker 1: talk about Madeleines placed in the halls, all next to
Speaker 1: all the other images, maybe on whatever floor it was
Speaker 1: on in the Louvra and Madelines the only one with
Speaker 1: dark skin, and definitely Scan that's that dark, So there
Speaker 1: is this dark contrast. She immediately stands out. It's easy
Speaker 1: to other.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's also like interesting to see how models are
Speaker 2: different now, like as far as the stories they're telling.
Speaker 2: I feel like models now aren't seen as inferior, especially
Speaker 2: during like the supermodel age of like the nineties. I
Speaker 2: feel like Madeline would have been that girl, like you
Speaker 2: wouldn't have to go back home and work, and maybe
Speaker 2: you take care of okays, maybe you have a nanny.
Speaker 2: But it's interesting to see like how things are different,
Speaker 2: and just like what it means to be a model,
Speaker 2: and like what story you're telling through sitting there about yourself,
Speaker 2: Like one is I'm working class and I need these shillings,
Speaker 2: and the others I'm so beautiful and everyone should aspire
Speaker 2: to look like me.
Speaker 1: So live model drawing was an important part of the
Speaker 1: foundational practice of some of those bougie artists who were
Speaker 1: in Europe who were going to places like the Royal Academy,
Speaker 1: and it was what they had to take as part
Speaker 1: of their course work. So it was a kind of
Speaker 1: a mundane job as opposed to something that was more
Speaker 1: uplifted because you had these people who were supposed to
Speaker 1: be turning into great artists and you were just a
Speaker 1: person who's coming in to be the vessel kind of
Speaker 1: for this amazing and enlightening work that they were going
Speaker 1: to do. So yeah, back then, definitely different. One parallel though,
Speaker 1: or kind of similarity that I see specifically with Fanny
Speaker 1: Eaton story, is thinking about her ambiguity and how much
Speaker 1: in media today, like in commercials, a lot of the time,
Speaker 1: people will tend to have someone they'll fill their color
Speaker 1: quota by bringing someone in who's ambiguous. It seems like
Speaker 1: a lot of companies like to do that because these
Speaker 1: people can fill whatever role they need, but they can
Speaker 1: also not hear any backlash because they're like, oh, I
Speaker 1: got this poc in. Yeah, So that wasn't necessarily their
Speaker 1: aim back then, but in a way, yeah, they didn't
Speaker 1: care about that. It just fulfilled their goals of being
Speaker 1: preaphytes and painting in the way that they did.
Speaker 2: Do you know how they found out Madeline's name?
Speaker 1: I think it might have been doctor Denise Morrell who
Speaker 1: dug that up, but I haven't seen the actual path
Speaker 1: to how they found it, what they were digging through
Speaker 1: to find her name. So I'm curious as to know
Speaker 1: the answer to that question too, because that's always an
Speaker 1: interesting part of the process. Maybe whatever they did to
Speaker 1: find out what Madeleine's name was, people can use that
Speaker 1: same course to find out what other art models' names
Speaker 1: were in the past.
Speaker 2: And now it's time for role credits, the segment where
Speaker 2: we give credit to a person, place, or thing that
Speaker 2: we've encountered during the week. Eve who are what would
Speaker 2: you like to give credit to?
Speaker 1: I would like to give credit to snacking. It's not
Speaker 1: something that I do often. I don't really keep a
Speaker 1: lot of snacks around my house, but I feel like
Speaker 1: I need to level my game up because every time
Speaker 1: I do want to snag, even if it's not often,
Speaker 1: I don't have one. So I'm going to give credit
Speaker 1: to snacking.
Speaker 2: Okay, I feel like our credits are polar opposites. Okay,
Speaker 2: tell me, I want to give credit to fasting and
Speaker 2: not like fasting as like dieting, just like fasting from
Speaker 2: something that you know is distracting you. Sometimes it is
Speaker 2: just like food, but you know it could be social media,
Speaker 2: it could be cussing, It could be like a lot
Speaker 2: of things that you fast from, but just like to
Speaker 2: get some like clarity and clear your mind. So total
Speaker 2: opposites kind of I think I could be. And thanks
Speaker 2: for listening, Thank ye y'all.
Speaker 1: Bye. On Theme is a production of iHeartRadio and Fairweather
Speaker 1: Friends Media. This episode was written by Eves, Jeffco and
Speaker 1: Katie Mitchell. It was edited and produced by Tari Harrison.
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